A Snapshot of the Saudi Male Youth
May 16, 2008 by delhi4cats
The New York Times has been running a special series this past week about Arab youth and changing perceptions. Two of the articles were specific to Saudi Arabia. One was about male youth in the Kingdom and focused on two cousins who both lived and worked in Riyadh. The reporter was with these two cousins and learned their views on life, what they thought on various issues and how they lived. The complete article can be viewed at this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/world/middleeast/12saudi.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Many blogs which focus on Saudi Arabia have made mention of the NY Times piece. I had debated but then (obviously) ultimately decided to comment upon the article here and open up for YOUR comments and thoughts.
While I believe the piece is well-written (as one would expect from a NY Times journalist) I am a little bit disconcerted on the picture it portrays and wonder to myself, how many Americans who read this piece and know little about the Kingdom will come away with the view that it is representative of all Saudi youth? After all, compared to many other newspapers, the NY Times is overall well respected.
In my view, I wish the journalist had added a caveat that the views expressed represent a small segment of Saudi society and Saudi youth and not representative of the views of the entire country. For example, the majority of the young unmarried Saudi males whom I know in the 18 – 30 age range are very respectful of women in the country, whether they are Saudi nationals or not. None of the young Saudi males I know would give a woman or a couple in a restaurant a hard time because a woman was either sitting by herself waiting for a companion or that she chose to uncover in the restaurant. I felt that the article illustrated double standards among the young men it portrayed as far as having one set of rules and regulations for the women in their family and another set of rules and regulations for themselves when attempting to flirt or make contact with Saudi women whose families were not known to them.
I did not like how the journalist focused on how the two young men had difficulty using eating utensils properly and remarked later that they were more accustomed to eating with their hands. It is also NOT NOT NOT typical to live in a home with ones mother, father, father’s second wife and the combined children. But again, now that it has been printed in the New York Times this will make it the norm for those who do not know any better about life in the Kingdom. And while some Saudi homes will have a room where one will sit on cushions on the floor rather than couches and chairs to me the article seemed to imply that the entire house was sparsely furnished with no furniture or pictures adorning the walls.
The cousins comments on what is Jihad and their views of Jihad lead room for misinterpretation as well. And, does it really reflect the majority view among Saudi male youth?
I encourage everyone to read the article and then respond with your comments about your knowledge and perception of male youth as well as whether you think the article portrayed an accurate snapshot of male youth in the Kingdom.
[...] sanooaung wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptThe New York Times has been running a special series this past week about Arab youth and changing perceptions. Two of the articles were specific to Saudi Arabia. One was about male youth in the Kingdom and focused on two cousins who both lived and worked in Riyadh. The reporter was with these two cousins and learned their views on life, what they thought on various issues and how they lived. The complete article can be viewed at this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/world/middleeast/12saudi.html?_r=1&oref=slogin [...]
This reminded me with an incident that happened with me last week. I was chitchatting with a Canadian woman, and while we were talking she mentioned that she was in Cuba 2 years ago. I directly recalled the piece of news that mentioned that in Feb 2008 for the first time Cubans were allowed to use cell phones. Then a month later I read that “Now Cubans enjoy owning a PC after the previous Gov didn’t allow citizens to use computers” I’ve never been to Cuba, and I was having on mind (what a primitive life they used to live) So I mentioned this to the woman, and she smiled , she told me, “this is not true . I know lots of Cubans. When I was there in 2006, they had cell phones, they had PC’s; and I found them nice people. Then she told me, this what the US media want us to know . They are not in a good relationship with Fidel Castro, so they want us to know what the US Gov want.
I honestly felt bad because I found myself a fool that I trusted the US media .
I understand Khalid.
I guess a question to ask is in readers view, which media services (and particularly those from the West) are really unbiased when presenting a story?
none
Short and sweet, Aafke!
However, please do read the link if you have not done so and share your thoughts and views.
I felt the same way as you did when I read the piece. I thought it made the boys depicted in the article sound a bit barbarous in some ways, yet with all this modern technology at their disposal. I can only speak from my personal experience here in Arabia, which is only 7 months and mainly with my husband’s family. I know that my nephews who are about the same ages as those in the story would never behave in the ways that the boys in the NY Times piece did. Somehow I feel that the article featured boys who are not really the norm here.
I will share with all of you that I shared this piece with an individual here in Riyadh whose family name is also Al Mutairi (same as the family in the NY Times article). His eyes kept getting wider and wider as he read the article and it disturbed him. It disturbed him not only for the way that the young men were portrayed but also because he feared that others who knew him and saw the piece would believe he personally shared those views as he had the same family name.
Oh my,interesting but most likely no more representative of Saudi life than Larry the Cable Guy would be representative of my part of the world!
Thanks for your comment, Katherine and welcome to the blog!
I think the problem here is that we, as Americans, tend to think that we can get even a small shot of an issue with a few pages in a paper. This article covered two guys in Riyadh, now most Americans would not realise that Riyadh and what goes on there would have little link to what happens in places like Jeddah and the Hijaz.
Saudi, like most countries, is highly regional, and to use Riyadh as a bell weather for the rest of the country just doest work. However, to give the reader a semi-accurate picture of the situation would require an article closer to 30-40 pages, not 3 or 4. The average American reader just isnt going to sit down and read an article that long.
This trend is not so heavy in the European media, that is why I tend to read them when I am looking at Western media. Whereas an issue will get 30 seconds on an American news program, the same issue might get 5 minutes on a venue like Deutsche Welle. It still isnt enough time to properly cover an issue, but it does a much better job.
As to Arabic media, on the whole I find them to be far too biased and interested in pushing the agenda of which ever government or movement which funds it. The only exception used to be al Jazeera, but with the recent thaw in relations between Qatar and Saudi, I do not think this is any longer the case. I realise that Western media are biased as well, but not in such totality as the Arabic media is.
I watch al Jazeera on a daily basis, as well as news programs on LBC, ART, Dubai TV ect. I used to watch al Manar before they banned the channel here in the USA. That reminded me of FOX News here in the states, lol.
All media are biased in one way or another, Western media just tends not to be as open about it and go as far with it as the arabic media does.
Thanks! Your blogs awesome! For an armchair traveler I’m learning a lot.
It is interesting that you feel that these articles do not reflect the “norm” in Saudi. As an American who has never been to Saudi, or any other country in the Middle East, I find that the New York Times articles paint a picture of a culture that is consistent with many other news articles that I have read or seen on TV. The articles paint a picture of a culture in which men exert extreme control over women in many ways, from the way they dress, to how they are permitted to behave in public, who they may talk to, even whether they are permitted to drive a car. Even “honor killings”, while not carried out by all families, seem to be accepted. On the other hand, men conduct themselves as they choose. I believe that one of the authors of the NYT articles is Saudi, so I am led to trust what he writes, especially since the articles are so consistent with virtually everything else carried in the media in the US. Even the Saudis you have interviewed on this blog reflect the restrictions women are required to accept when returning to Saudi after spending time in the US in university. So it seems that even if some of the details of the NYT articles may not reflect the “norm”, the overall picture that is painted does seem to be reflective of the norm – that of extreme control of women by men.
Shouldn’t it be the Saudi women speaking out and stating whether they believe extreme control is exerted over them before anyone else makes such a statement or judgement?
Yes; I will agree hands down that men rule in KSA. There is no doubt on that aspect. My issue with the NY Times article is that it writes about two specific young men who are cousins and seems to imply that all young men are uncultured and do not know how to conduct themselves in various situations.
The article also makes a significant statement with in my view, no basis to fact, that the practices in Saudi Arabia are perpetuating among muslims around the world. I do not agree with such a statement as it is worded in the article.
Thanks all for your comments thus far and looking forward to more.
“Phantom”,
I think your comment actually made some of our points for us! It is entirely clear that Americans and many in the West get a completely one sided view of the Middle East and that is it.
As an American who has spent a lot of time in the Middle East I can tell you that Western reporting on the area is very one dimensional, and more often than not, misleading. The abundance of Western reporting on this issue, itself, doesnt make the issue or the tones of the reports fact.
You mentioned that one of the authors of the story is Saudi, I looked at the article again and aside from the “by-line” it said “Mona el-Naggar contributed reporting.”
I wasnt familiar with this lady, but looking at the name it was clear she was NOT Saudi. No one but an Egyptian would spell their name this way. The “G” in “Naggar” is Egyptian dialect.
I looked her up and she is indeed Egyptian. National and regional differences aside (and they are very large and well known in the area), it is clear this article was written for Western consumption and that it is NOT representitive of all of Saudi.
From this article you’d never be aware that in the Hijaz region of Saudi, in cities like Jeddah, it is not uncommon for women to go out not only without their face covered, but without the hijab.
I have heard from my sister in law who lives in Jeddah that woman are walking around in public without hijabs on at all. From articles like this you’d hardly get an impression like this.
Instead of looking at lopsided, one dimensional reporting and thinking it is fact, you should be asking why you are not hearing anything from the region that goes more into depth and shows a different viewpoint.
By your method of thinking I could look at Arabic papers, and make pronoucements about America based on the uniform view of this country that many of them offer. On the whole, however, they tend to offer a more diverse and nuanced view of American, aside from highly political media outlets like al Manar.
Do you think anyone would get an accurate picture of American using such a method?
The father and the oldest brother usually wield the most power in the family here in KSA and in Lebanon as far as I know. The big brother is held responsible for his sister’s behavior. If he does not control her, it becomes shameful for him and for the family name.
But, I think you have to look at other cultures that are a bit similar to understand this ‘control issue’ better. Look at the customs of the Italians or many of the Latin cultures, and you will see that women are also very controlled as far as what males they may meet and speak to and where they go. (of course not to the extent here).
In KSA, there is a wide range of control from very strict like the two young men in the article, to no control at all. I would guess that the ‘norm’ in KSA is more toward the very strict side for women, especially in Riyadh.
American2saudi: Am I glad my brother has nothing to say over me!!!
I thought the article, while mildly interesting, did nothing to present saudi youth as stated in the title. By now I have read enough blogs to know differently anyway.
Looking at it from an unbiased point of view it still describes only two young men, and it would be silly to expect the whole youth of a nation to behave and think in the same way. I found the bit about eating with utensils or hands ridiculous.
Besides I don’t consider the use of cutlery to be the height of civilisation anyway.
And please: I have seen Americans eating: You don’t want me to write an article about Americans based on one or two I knew.
One of the cousins was a creep. The other I have hope for.
The view of the lady in the article about girls on the muttawa I thought was interesting. After all: this is really the first time I heard anybody from KSA say in an interview that they think the ”commision for the promotion of vice and the prevention of virtue” is actually a good idea. Some people must think so of course, otherwise they wouldn’t exist. But this was the first time I read somebody actually said so.
Need I add that I consider this point of view not to be the norm as the article suggested?
Thanks for reminding me that I don’t miss much by not reading papers Bedu. And I’m taking time off from work to write my objective observations on your subject!
Hence my earlier succinct comment.
But you are not easily satisfied are you?
Ahhh, Aafke, I knew you would come through for me with a thoughtful and insightful post! (big bad grin)
Yes; I for one would enjoy reading a post on your blog about observations on Americans and how some of them eat!
Also that the interviews were mostly in Riyadh. n saudi arabia is not the same all over. somethings may be allowed in one part but frowned upon in the other.
that’s so true, Muneebsaeed. Similar for the States…an interivew of individuals from New York City would unlikely yield same results as interviewing someone from Omaha.
Aafke, I’m glad your brother doesn’t rule over you either!
My son is very easy on his sister. (We lived outside KSA for 7 years total, though, so I wouldn’t call him a ‘typical’ Saudi.)
There are four Saudi brothers in my husband’s family and they are as different as the fingers on your hand with their wives, so I agree with you that you can’t generalize on this topic — especially using only two young men. For example, in our own family, one makes his western wife cover her face when she goes out, one asks his wife to look ‘Saudi’ (abayya and tarha), one asks his wife just to cover her hair and be a bit conservative when he is with her, and one doesn’t put any demands on his wife. She lives and works and travels all over the world alone, uncovered. And that’s with a ‘modern’ Najdi family that lived outside KSA during most of the brothers’ schooling years.
I also agree that the newspapers are very biased and somehow manage to turn very simple stories like this one into bad images of this part of the world. We all need to write and complain about the way young men were portrayed.
Thanks for sharing and welcome to the blog, Americangirl. By the way, did your husband’s brothers all marry Western wives?
WOOOW - yassalaaaaam
Once upon a time I lived in Alhejaz.
and from my experiences living between makkah and jedah i say to you the Ny times has no clue as to how youth love, and the opposet sex deal culturally and relegeslaey.i agree with most of you on that this article really is like talking to 2 Saudi men (people) and telling millions of people what they sead knowing that most of the million people will think that the 2 people reflect the life of more than a million people!
Thankfully bloggers are bringing this article to attention and for discussion so hopefully other readers simply curious about KSA will recognize not to judge a country based on an interview of two nationals only.
I have been thinking (!!!) Who says these two guys are portrayed fathfully any way? I have been interviewed myself, and it is amazing to read later on what I have ‘’said”!!! ”My own words” put into the vocabulary of the reporter allready sound quite different. And they always add their own flavour to your words, and defenitely their own ideas.
Not to mention what one bozo did by reproducing some sentences only by half, thereby completely changing their meaning! I remonstrated, (it made me look pretty obnoxious (or even more obnoxious)) but it was printed anyway. Pfff.
So really, such an article gives no insight at all.
That is true. For example, the poli-doc “Fahrenheit 9/11″ actually only provided partial quotes and glimpses which painted a very bleak picture. A rebuttal was made to it (sorry, can’t remember name of film) which used the same clips and different segments of the quotes which gave a completely different picture and story. It was fascinating watching one right after the other.
A biased story about two distubingly uncivilised Saudi youths (assuming what’s said about them is accurate anyway). Of course it’s not representative of any more than two people from Saudi.
Personally for me here in the UAE, I find the most problems with regards to women and fundamentalism are coming from the Pakistani’s, not the Emiratis nor the Saudis.
The article seems nice to read but far from reality.If catching some eyeballs is the objective, then they have certainy done a great job.
uhhhh…im arab american, these boys seem normal and typical of saudis. I understand what they are saying on the Times video clip. 99% of arab youth will engage in legitimate jihad. Even arab americans feel that way. Maybe YOU people have the stereotypes.
As far as eating with our hands and sitting on the floor…so what???? We still do that in america. If that makes us inferior to westerners and their tatooed, pierced, anything-goes lifestyles, so be it.
Apparently, if saudis have different lifestyles or points of view, they are “barbaric,” “backward,” or “not typical of arab youth.” American badu, you should rename your blog “The Great White Hope”….and by the way, badu is plural….i think you mean American Badawiya.
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Reuters chose to pick up this post:
http://www.reuters.com/article/blogBurst/investing?bbPostId=CzCso0daZ4bnXBEZgr4vZTMqJCz8A2lbw3EBIZCz2NVeaaIG048
Adela,
You made a caveat in what you wrote stating that 99 per cent of arab youth will engage in legitimate jihad. However the original article did not clarify that clearly and that is also what I highlighted in my post. The article left room for misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
In your words, how would you like young arab males (or woman) described? Your comment indicates you were satisfied with the article and its choices of adjectives. Is that correct?
Neither the article nor my comments to the article make any reference on Saudis or arabs being inferior. Sounds like you made that assumption on your own…
No; I have no intention of renaming my blog nor the nickname my Saudi husband gave to me.
Thanks for your comment.
AA- Carol,
Chiming in a bit late, but I too was disturbed by the Times article. I agree with your thought as well as most of the comments (uhmmm…not sure what Adela was smoking)…but wanted to add this tidbit - The perspective on marriage as portrayed in the article is not an Islamic one. In fact, its against the Prophetic teaching to marry a woman without seeing her face.
It irks me to no end how Saudi culture is often portrayed as Islamic, when in fact the two are very different on many occasions.
Thanks for your comments, Naeem.
I think because Saudi Arabia is viewed as the heart of Islam that oftentimes what is part of Saudi culture just naturally gets skewered as associated or sanctioned in Islam as well.