Saudi Arabia: Are You SURE He’s Really Gay?

gay

Okay, for once you are probably catching me posting while I am on a tangent. It’s just I get so tired of hearing so many expats on meeting a Saudi man who may be over the age of 30 and not yet married immediately say “oh, he must be gay.” Come on… I think that is harsh, unnecessary and totally inappropriate. Now I am not saying there are not Saudi men who are indeed gay but one should not readily assume all are if they happen to be beyond what is viewed as the typical marrying age. There can be many reasons why a man has chosen not to marry and particularly so for a Saudi man. Let’s start with the high dowries that are expected to be provided to the bride. For many Saudi men, this may make marriage not affordable and prohibitive to them. Or perhaps for some men, particularly if they come from a family with many sisters or Aunts who have to be chauffeured around, they are enjoying being single too much and having that sense of freedom by not having a wife or more women for whom they must be responsible given the cultures and customs of Saudi Arabia. And last but not least, some men may enjoy their life as it is and are content. They may be married to their jobs or simply do not feel a pressing need to conform to society through marriage to someone with whom they do not know; are not ready and have no interest in. I don’t believe one jumps so quickly to the conclusion that a man must be gay if he is a western and not married by the age of 30, so why be so harsh and judgmental against Saudi men?

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175 Responses

  1. Bismillaah

    Great topic and good points. But, uh what’s up with the picture? Very graphic and grotesque +o(

  2. Physical affection between Arab men can also be misinterpreted as gayness by Westerners. Dr Nadia Khadri, a prominent Moroccan psychiatrist has published on these aspects of Arab male behaviour that lead Westerners to misdiagnose or misinterpret them as “gay”.

    Wearing heavy scents, Italian clothes, and being refined can also constitute gayness for some Westerners.

    Most people’s “gaydar” seems poor, and especially so across cultures.

  3. Well said AmericanBedu!

    And nods to the picture–lol it’s great and gets the point across.

  4. I would appreciate a reference for the painting if you have one. (it will improve my morals if I don’t have to scroll through the entire online google images repertoire of male nudes in Muslim settings 😀 )

    Based on my limited knowledge of art history it is not a grotesque in art terms, but more reminiscent of 19th century realism, though idealized. Nice use of light and shade to preserve modesty!

  5. I found the image on google images and really sorry that I do not have any info on it. But given the topic when I found the image, it seemed like an ideal fit to the post.

  6. It is an excellent choice–back to google images I go! 🙂

  7. It is a cultural misunderstanding. I still find it hard talking to my Arab male friends because they have a tendency to want to get VERY close to me when they talk and also have a thing about touching.

    For those of us here in the West, particularly Western European, we are more reserved than this and require a lot of personal space, never mind the whole touching thing.

    Ex pats need to learn to pick up on things like this and adjust quickly otherwise they are going to have a miserable time abroad.

  8. Abu Sinan– Agreed. Standing “too close”, men hugging, men kissing on the cheek, men holding hands, men shaking hands in a holding hands way, holding an arm when talking, etc. are all culturally distinct behaviours, and favour misunderstanding across cultures.
    it is also usually experienced as highly offensive by any heterosexual man to be assumed to be gay.

  9. Chiara – if you’d like a copy of the image, email me and I can send it to you.

    Good points how it is acceptable and expected in the Arab world that men (and women too) will stand closer to one another when talking and when walking may also hold hands. And adding to Chiara’s comments on men hugging and kissing on the cheek, I’ve observed many times Arab men kissing on the lips or forehead and it is only a gesture of affection and respect and should not be misinterpreted as anything more.

  10. The one in the beard is so cute. You must introduce us Bedu 🙄

  11. Behave yourself Gay Wahhabi..next thing I know folks will be asking me to set up an American Bedu matchmaking page!

  12. No need for a new page, just change the 4th page to “Dear Madam Bedu” 😉

  13. lol…nice picture! Very sexy and to the point:-)

  14. I don’t know if you can check any of the on-line dating services from Saudi Arabia but there are a LOT of “Men seeking men” listings – all over the GCC. Alas, we do have a saying in Kuwait, “If you drop your wallet in Kuwait, kick it to Saudi Arabia.” Maybe we should change that… 🙂

    Keep up the great posts!

  15. Men are not the only ones that have a tendency to touch and get too close…Ive been here 23 years and Im still not use to the constant hugging, the touching of arms or legs etc while women talk…and I find it even more uncomfortable when they are strangers to me.

    But yes…men are very “touchy feely” in public…takes some getting use to…nice though that they take that with them wherever they go…gotta be yourself.

  16. wooohhooooo!!!! nice photo!

  17. But then all this segregationa and repression does lead to an increase in homosexuality both in men and in women. People need somebody to love and if the natural urge for looking for a mate is denied, people will turn to their own sex.
    Except some women, who go for cats instead.

    Although I agree one shouldn’t jump to such conclusions so ridiculously fast and so judgementally. And especially in a country like KSA I’d hardly expect men to flaunt an eventual leaning towards other men so openly.
    Besides, ”Every girl’s crazy ’bout a well dressed man.”

  18. I see nothing wrong with the picture? just a doctor going to examine a patient.
    Or an artists going to paint a model.
    Or a friend showing how much weight he lost…
    or they are going out and one of them had a nap woke up too late and is now getting dressed…
    or,
    or they are just two gay men finally going to get it off….

  19. I definitely agree about the high cost of weddings being a deterrent. My husband was telling me that to hire a moderately nice wedding hall for the night in his city costs around 15,000 SR.

    …. WHAT?! This is almost alien to me (I’m writing from a country where hiring a nice church will only set you back about $500 AUD + a bit more if you want flowers). I can not only see why Saudi men would delay their marriages for reasons like this – I can sympathise!

  20. What, didn’t know Saudi Arabia had GLBT issues, or issues with the GLBT community.

    Sometimes, I hear guys complain that it’s almost ancient Greek and Rome in Khalidiyyah, and Balad, and Lesbos Island in dorms and girl colleges. But I wouldn’t know: that’s old woman’s story.

    And since you’ve mentioned it, what is it like over there, Bedu?

  21. I used to love what my american friends used to say.

    its always starts with DUDE,

    ” for a very homophobic culture, you guys are very homoerotic in actions.” they also added that i was not one of them 😛 ha ha. its even acceptable for friends to joke around by touching each others behinds.

    I have been accused of being gay for not wanting to get married any time soon. i just accept it. my mom’s uncle is not married, people talk behind his back all the time that he is gay. it is very harsh, and very inconsiderate of people. people need to shut up.

  22. My goodness bedu, is that frontal nudity i see in the pic…you should put out a disclaimer…

  23. Well my friends brother is married with children and people talk about him assuming he is gay…why…because according to his wife he isnt doing so well in the …ehem…manly department. …but then again if you knew his wife…you wouldnt blame him at all :mrgreen:

  24. Another factor that plays into men postponing marriage is the involvement of family. Many of my guy cousins took extremely long to get everyone to agree on a particular girl. The mother has to choose then the sisters, and if not they might put off their brother just by description long before officially asking the girl. One family I know has only one son out of five married and the youngest being over thirty. All because their mother is very controlling and when asked why she is being such an obstacle she replies that they are too young and she hasn’t found anyone good enough. While the daughters, 3 in total are married off to the first guy that proposes.

  25. The dowry is so high in Saudi it’s not even funny.I would like to know the reason behind it.It’s not amazing if some Saudi guys are 30 and not married.Still saving maybe and what’s the rush anyway.It would be nice to live other people and their choices alone.

  26. LOOOOOOOOOOOL
    I knew people around here would make a fuss about the pic since all of their focus on it 😀

    What I am here to say is, I can’t agree more with you Carol. I donno when people are going to stop gossiping and start respecting each other’s choices!

    As for the gay above me who thinks he is cute and fun, YOU’RE NOT! Stop faking!

  27. Poor girls….married off to the first one that comes along. Imagine marrying the person you went on your first date with! Ugh! My friend had no feelings for the guy, (he put his fist through the wall when she wanted to go home early!) Imagine being married to someone like that! Not. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

  28. I think there is a lot of confusion between homosexual sex and true homosexuality–. However because dh and I are medical people and worked closely with local medical people we were told homosexual sex is not uncommon–and about the picture–not much to get “excited” about–I had to put on my reading glasses even to see that little thang!

  29. Very much enjoying all the comments.

    In response to a query, does homosexuality exist in KSA? Yes; it sure does and I’ll have to search for earlier posts on the subject. But is it rampant – I doubt it.

    And someone else posted about American guys and their own way of showing friendship…very true — the butt pats and all, which when growing up in the States you don’t think twice on seeing that.

    Again there are indeed the double standards…the girl is married off much more quickly than the guys and the mother does indeed get more involved in marrying off a son!

  30. Mothers and their obsessions over their sons makes me sick.I can’t believe this sickness is all over the world.They are the main causes of divorces today.Most of them think no one is good enough for their son,while a lady is doing her son a favor.Mothers in-law out there stop being horrible.You are distroying your sons lifes.

  31. Saudi Arabia isn’t the only country where people want to get too close (at least from an American view point). I had a male friend from the Dominican Republic who would get right in my face.

  32. American Bedu–thank you for the kind offer about the picture, I will send an e-mail.

    It is true that except for Northern European and North American cultures, most men in other cultures have a much greater latitude about public displays of affection (and emotion, eg. crying, for that matter), and stand much closer.

    3-5% of men are either gay or bisexual, a statistic that seems consistent world wide based on reliable studies. So cultural norms about other forms of affection do not change that. Severe segregation may result in some men and women engaging in (or being forced to engage in) homosexual sex on a temporary basis. Otherwise sublimation, autoeroticism, and travel “adventures” seem to relieve tension.

    LGBTQ issues, and support groups online exist for Muslims, and those from specific countries including Iran, Syria, Somalia, Turkey, etc. The issues exist in Saudi but sites are blocked, and movements underground.

    I enjoyed especially the point about mothers and sisters delaying the marriage of a man–sometimes unfortunately this is due to a desire for financial control and benefit– especially with the oldest son, the youngest, or an only son–as well as the tradition of women coming into power postmenopausally via their sons, and the daughters-in-law coming into the family under “Umm’s” control. Fortunately not all mothers-in-law are the root of all evil!

  33. I once read a post by an ex-army US soldier who had been stationed in KSA. He wrote he could not wait to get back to the US because the site of saudi men holding hands and kissing made his so disgusted.

    I was amazed! A man trained to shoot and kill people on command was disgusted by simple displays of affection. WOW, now that is messed up!

    Yeah some westerners might want to reassess their views.

  34. Two years ago Atlantic Monthly ran a lengthy article on that very matter entitled “A Kingdom in the Closet.”

    “Gay courting in the kingdom is often overt—in fact, the preferred mode is cruising. “When I was new here, I was worried when six or seven cars would follow me as I walked down the street,” Jamie, a 31-year-old Filipino florist living in Jeddah, told me. “Especially if you’re pretty like me, they won’t stop chasing you.” John Bradley, the author of Saudi Arabia Exposed: Inside a Kingdom in Crisis (2005), says that most male Western expatriates here, gay or not, have been propositioned by Saudi men driving by “at any time of the day or night, quite openly and usually very, very persistently.”

    …”This society thrives just below the surface. During the afternoon, traffic cops patrol outside girls’ schools as classes end, in part to keep boys away. But they exert little control over what goes on inside. A few years ago, a Jeddah- based newspaper ran a story on lesbianism in high schools, reporting that girls were having sex in the bathrooms. Yasmin, a 21-year-old student in Riyadh who’d had a brief sexual relationship with a girlfriend (and was the only Saudi woman who’d had a lesbian relationship who was willing to speak with me for this story), told me that one of the department buildings at her college is known as a lesbian enclave. The building has large bathroom stalls, which provide privacy, and walls covered with graffiti offering romantic and religious advice; tips include “she doesn’t really love you no matter what she tells you” and “before you engage in anything with [her] remember: God is watching you.” In Saudi Arabia, “It’s easier to be a lesbian [than a heterosexual]. There’s an overwhelming number of people who turn to lesbianism,” Yasmin said, adding that the number of men in the kingdom who turn to gay sex is even greater. “They’re not really homosexual,” she said. “They’re like cell mates in prison.”

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200705/gay-saudi-arabia

  35. SDR – such comments on the part of US military to me indicate a lack of sensitivity and cultural awareness training.

  36. I agree with you American Bedu. In studies done here in the US, that observed the level of sexual arousal in men as they viewed heterosexual and homosexual pronography produced interesting findings. Subjects who were tolerant of gay couples had the least sexual arousal when watching gay porn and high arousal with straight porn. In contrast, men who were intolerant of homosexuality were more aroused by gay porn. The soldier in this case could be one of those guys who’s uncomfortable with his sexuality and is not willing to admit that he may have a sexual preference of–and attraction towards other men. That or it could be culture shock…and lack of cultural awareness as you stated.

    I pulled this from the footnotes of an article I read recently, thought I would share it: http://www.nospank.net/glazov.htm

  37. @ Mariam Mac,

    Girls dont marry the first guy that comes along. The guy and his family visit the other family, the guys sits with the girl (with family close by) and they talk, After say 3 times of this they descide weather they want to get engaged or not.

    Engagement in Saudi isn’t like in the US where its the last step. people here get engaged and then get to know each other better (no sex). engagements typically last 1-2 years until both guy and girl agree that they want to get married.

    This system is meant as a way for that there is no fooling around. If you want to meet a girl you have to have good intentions, and she and her family investigate the husband to be and make sure he’s a honest good man.

    However there are some people who have tribal customs that have the bride and groom not meet untill the wedding night!

    Islamically, they must see each other and both agree. It is considered a sin for the parents to force a girl to get married. Sadly though some people in saudi tend to care more about culture than religion and often mix the two.

  38. NN…my friend is a guidance councellor in a girls govt school….she has some hair raising stories to tell about the goings on with the girls in those schools…enough to make teenage boys blush.

    “cellmates in prison” is a very good description of people in this part of the world…its not necessarily they want or choose to engage in gay or lesbian behavoirs…but feel they are foced into it because of segregation and strict gender rules.

  39. SDR: make love not war! 😉

    There are some pretty disturbing videos on Arab men though….


    And I would like to know from a saudi if this butt-wobbling is a natural phenomenon in KSA? Becasue if so then it might be understandable to see a toddler do it, otherwise I find the following video extremely disturbing:

    And to see full veiled niqabis doing it is also very yukky obscene
    so much for ”modesty”

  40. The FireBrand

    Unfortunately your Arabic link leads to an article on the fairness or not of taking a 2nd wife without informing the 1st; and the synopsis in English states that a man was put to death for being a homosexual. I’m not sure how this relates to the post, except that as others have acknowledged homosexuality exists in Saudi, and as most readers here know it is punishable by death, according to Sharia law. The point of the post seems to me to be rather that normal heterosexual male Arab/Saudi behaviours are subject to misinterpretation about sexual orientation by Westerners.

    The other link has some very dubious statementsby Jamie Glazov, to say the least, eg.: “In all of these circumstances, the idea of love is removed from men’s understanding of sexuality. Like the essence of Arab masculinity, it is reduced to hurting others by violence.”

    I should think that after the GWB administration’s foreign policy fiascos, everyone would be suitably wary of right-wing PhDs with a Soviet specialization recycling themselves as Drs of Arab/Muslim culture, and more so of those whose academic and political accountability is no more rigorous than that of a professional pundit. This is not to mention concern about anyone who seems to think Obama is a radical Islamist’s dream President, Hollywood is controlled by the radical Left, and universities and Rotary Clubs are bastions of radical Islamist thought (from his interviews for Front Page Magazine):

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Authors.aspx?GUID=88FB73C8-DF72-4B9C-97F7-3CFB6DE25BB1

    If I have misunderstood your comments, I would appreciate a clarification. Thanks.

  41. NN

    The article you referenced, despite its general high level, contains some rather naive perceptions and theories, including that Middle Eastern men are the only ones who divide homosexuals into tops (aggressive, penetrators) and bottoms (passive, penetrated) with only the bottoms considered homosexual (although it does acknowledge the historical roots in greco-roman culture). This is in fact a common contemporary Mediterranean belief (I first heard it from Greeks, then North Africans) and is the standard rationalization for male prostitution (not homosexual if you are paid to be a top). Or that Saudi homosexuals (even the self-identified tops) are conflicted and confused because of the Islamic condemnation of sodomy–most homosexual men from an Abrahamic religious or cultural tradition are conflicted and confused until they come to greater self-acceptance.

    The reading of the Koran, and Muslim condemnation of homosexuality seems to be the classic Western/Christian confusion between the orientation and the behaviour. Islam is generally more tolerant of the orientation, and less tolerant of the PUBLIC behaviour, whereas Christianity condemns both, and contemporary Western societies seem to celebrate both (with the emphasis on “seem”.

    Citing Michel Foucault on homosexuality, as much as I admire Foucault’s work, is rather unreliable given Foucault’s own orientation and how it colours his otherwise admirable “History of Sexuality”–rather like Marcel Proust in “Remembrace of Time Past” seeing homosexuality and lesbianism everywhere in Parisian culture.

    Overall, and again, despite its high quality, it reminds me of “Seek and ye shall find”, or Paul Bowles’ impression of Morocco and Moroccan men as almost all being homosexual prostitutes. Maybe the swing right since self-identified neocon, pro-Iraq invasion editor Bradley took over has had more of an impact on The Atlantic than it seems.

    Thanks for the interesting link, though.

  42. Chiara, it’s not that Islam is tolerant of gays, but the Saudi society in general allows it. And ”the man on top” is still ”the man”, while the ”reciever” is the despicable one. Or non-existant alltogether.

  43. @Simple Saudi – while there are defined protocols in regards to a couple getting engaged and married in KSA most whom I have known got to meet their intended that one time for a few short minutes and used that meeting to determine if they wished to marry. In most cases as well, they did not get together again (face to face) until the marriage.

    Now I need to go and check out all the links and videos which have been kindly provided by various commentors!

  44. Aafke – I just viewed all of your enlightening videos. I did not know the men danced as such although I’ve seen many women do similar kind of moves at all women gatherings. I guess it is a custom or tribal thing.

  45. Aafke–I do believe I said the same thing about tops and bottoms, though not so graphically.

    Regarding orientation vs behaviour, religious Muslim men (educated heterosexuals) have explained to me in the course of my tutoring their preparation to take Canadian licensing exams (where the topic is relevent), that Islam recognizes the sexual orientation as occuring, but expects that the person will not act on their desires, and instead suppress their desires and submit to the will of Allah about proper sexual behaviour (as heterosexuals are also supposed to do). Everything I have read from reliable sources supports this.

    I have no doubt there are homosexuals in Saudi (even if just based on the 3-5% statistic), and that Saudi culture prefers to turn a blind eye rather than kill them all, unless “forced” into judicial action by other circumstances (the Atlantic article as well as Saudi news items say as much).

    Regarding the videos, they look like traditional forms of Arab dance for men and women, exaggerated by being in a same sex environment. If you want to see lascivious girations, go to a dance/night club in a Latin American country and watch the men “perform” to attract the ladies! :mrgreen:

  46. Aafke,

    I was shocked when i saw thoese vids :O

    but i could tell that the most of the vids where from people in the UAE. I think one of them was from the eastern part of saudi.

    This dance is definetly not common and would be fround upon by mainstream saudi’s and muslims.

    After reading the video title in arabic I found the wikipedia refrence to that type of dance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M'alayah

  47. for some reason the link seems busted dont click on it just copy paste the whole thing (including the ‘alayah part in the end)

  48. Hey Chiara,

    I’m not an Arabic speaker, I was rather hoping that someone here would translate it. Awkward how the article isn’t even about the subject matter…

    But the other article I found was interesting–but then again I find a lot of things interesting–I am an equal opportunity seeker of interesting things that may or may not be relevant. lol! As always I thought the topic proposed would add a kick to the discussion.

  49. Simple Saudi–I think you didn’t copy the whole link, try:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27alayah
    And thanks!
    Also I appreciated your earlier distinctions among Arab/Saudi culture, Islam, and tribal customs–probably part of why American Bedu has experienced a different variation on the engagement/wedding protocol.

    Abdellah Hamed–comment above–Dude, like great comment! LOL 😀

  50. @Chiara:

    I don’t think the article seeks to state that Saudi has a monopoly in this particular matter. It is true that you will find this in any society that frowns on overt gay identity (but makes no big deal of gay behavior). I will leave aside the theological and philosophical wonderings, and share with you these observations from my personal experience.

    In my past life I worked in public health and development in the HIV/AIDS arena in Asia and Africa. It is common knowledge that man-to-man sexual contact is a high-risk behavior for getting infected, and therefore successful prevention communication campaigns necessarily need to target that group. In Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan we had one hell of a time reaching that group because men who practice that behavior definitely do not consider themselves gay and consequently tune out any public health messages that target “gay men” because they do not interpret them as relevant to their personal situation. Our focus groups very much support the theory the article advances: behavior is very much present and silently acknowledged, while identity is frowned upon. In layman’s terms, a Pakistani truck driver may say, “I am away from home for eight weeks at a time and when it gets lonely, I may get oral sex or penetrate my turnboy (young male assistant driver) to take an edge off, but I am definitely – definitely – not gay because being gay is shameful and against the rules.” And it is true that gay identity is interpreted in the context of being a bottom, i.e. being penetrated and acting “like a woman”, whereas a top partner is still being a man – a penetrating party, if you will. Whom he penetrates is less important.

    If you look at all development literature, you will see an awkward term of “men who have sex with men.” This waste of verbiage is the development industry’s response to the repeated, consistent finding that these men do not see themselves as gay and frown on those who do as “REAL” deviants. To the extent that “gay” is identity and not behavior, they really are “not” gay. The public health risk comes when they do not recognize that their behavior places them at risk of a “gay” disease. It’s extremely difficult to work with that group for all the above reasons.

    On whether this is a peculiarly Middle East phenomena, I will not comment, but there seems to be adequate anecdotal and literary evidence in support of that. A “beardless boy” is a common enough object of admiration in Persian poetry – a role that is generally filled by a pretty girl elsewhere. It is not too much of a stretch to surmise that the society tacitly excuses homoerotic thought as an acceptable price for maintaining the purity of its females.

    And haven’t you ever heard a peculiarly Middle Eastern saying, “women for babies, men for fun”?

  51. The FireBrand–my superior arabic reading skills allowed me to ascertain the content immediately 😛 :mrgreen:
    or to be intellectually honest “google translate” “arabic to english” did a comprehensible (and rapid) translation.
    If you have a different link and google you could translate it. I suspect the link went to the site’s current content not the article you wanted, and I tried searching the site (with google translated key words)but couldn’t find anything.

    Your other link I found interesting for “the wrong” reasons, but you did kick start a comment! LOL 🙂

  52. Well bedu American, I will be kind of ignorant to the westerners commenter If I told you that you shouldn’t post this picture along with the subject or at least you could edit it because It shocked me and also what shocked me that some “Muslim” people were positive about it presence. As A Muslim, you should know that and I couldn’t Ignore this and I hope my advice won’t make you defensive also I wish I’ll never see those kind of fake liberal life because to be liberal you shouldn’t do what others used to do, I think you got what I meant. Art is nice and I like art because I am an artist but for certain levels. Maybe your next subject should be about nudity in Islam so others will have the opportunity to be informed. I know I am not on the position that gives me the right to judge others but that my thinking and I am liberal to express it and I am sure IT wont offend Muslims.

    the Wahhabi gay is a Shiite رافضي< nice name 🙂 and explain everything.

    Anyway, I am enjoying to be single and I think I won’t get married before 30s however, I always thinking that without children and wife I will be Isolated from the community for many reasons, one of them I will be limited in my actions because Imagine as a man in 30s – or over – everyone expect that on 10 pm he should go home before his wife get worried and I mean by thought if you observe the saudis on the market sooq or wherever you found them you will notice that they have children with them or that they are busy buying things for the house….etc.Even my friends will get married in the next months except me so you can Imagine how lost I will be. On the weekends days, I will be alone cause no many Saudi men over 30s are singles and even in my family -like other families- my brothers are preparing to get married so in the next 3 years-if not less- they will be busy with their small family .So, if you are not married and you are over 30s, then you are abnormal (against the normal society structure) and there is a percentage that you are a bad man because no one agreed to allow you to marry his daughter or you can’t help in bringing a baby if you got what I meant this is how the society judge you over here. About me, I feel that I am not ready for marriage and there is a plan to marry someone but every time I think about it , it make me feel panic…………but, I love children and I enjoy talking to them when I had the chance to……..but I get scared near them when there are babies( the crying thing…… I can’t be left alone with them).

  53. NN–thank you for sharing your experience which makes greater sense of your appreciation for the article.

    I am well aware (for professional reasons) of the HIV/AIDs prevention issues and differing transmission patterns in different cultures. In the context of medical risk of transmission, of course anal sex is a very high risk activity no matter how the practitioners consider themselves in terms of orientation or identity .

    An overtly gay identity is of course highly frowned upon (and can get one killed by the authorities or family), but that is different than what I was referencing in terms of orientation and desires. In fact, it is an example of an unacceptable public behaviour or manifestation of gayness that should have been suppressed.

    Based on Aafke’s comment and yours, I guess I wasn’t clear that I appreciate full well that tops don’t consider themselves gay, and that only bottoms are. If I had any doubt about it in the past, my North African students who performed this service professionally(one with a very famous gay American author as a weekly booty call) as tops (or so they claimed) for money to stay in university and in a foreign country enlightened me about this long ago.

    Edmund White’s literary works set in Greece contain the same ideas (Greek men who work professionally as tops with gay tourists, and consider themselves heterosexual). Real live Greeks think the same thing. And only in those cultures where this is a belief, do trained physicians also believe that only the penetrated are gay.

    I guess the point is that the risky behaviours need to be minimized medically no matter how the orientation or identity is defined. The awkward verbiage in that sense is justifiable.

    My other point, in reference to the post, was that despite the presence in Saudi of men engaging in sex with men, the normal public social behaviours of heterosexual Arab men are miscontrued by Westerners as signs of gayness where there is none.

    I can tell by their behaviour in the library, the cafeteria, or elsewhere on campus how recently a group of Arab men has arrived in North America or Europe, or how private they think their greetings are. Otherwise, they tend to adopt more Western norms in public–and no public hand holding/walking arm-in-arm ever once they step off the plane!

    Thanks again for sharing your interesting experiences!

  54. Saudi Bedu– I enjoyed your comment and thank you for sharing your perspective, and knowledge of Saudi social judgments.

    No worries, babies terrify all parents at first, but eventually the babies learn to cry more constructively (they develop the neurological capacity for distinctive cries), and parents learn to understand their crying better. Besides they are designed cute (ethological cues), so just when one is ready– despite one’s better instincts and socialization– to throw them out the window, one stops and rocks them instead. 😀

  55. i can understand why americans think it’s gay or weird for a man over 30 years old and nor married, because they pay next to nothing to get married! while saudis have to give dowries, book the wedding hall, buy sheeps and camles, and invite the whole extended family and friends of both bride and groom on the groom’s expense! that takes a lot of money and a lot of years to save it.

    now for me, that’s okay, cause it’s our culture and this is how things get done here. but what i wouldn’t do is to pay all the expenses above and blow all my savings on them and marry a girl that i don’t even know. what if things don’t work out and we divorce? all that money that i worked hard for is just gone….

    i just turned twenty one and i already told my sisters to start the process of searching a suitable future wife for me. and i don’t plan to marry until i finish college, get a job, and save some money. i hope i do all of that before reaching the “suspicion age” !! 😀

  56. Can’t Wahhabis be gay? Why should Shias get the blame if a Wahhabi shows homosexual tendencies?;-)
    LOL…No offense intended. I hope we’re all cool:)

  57. saudi bedu – thank you for your comment and sharing your views. All the best in your search for a wife…and any of us who are parents can relate to the comments on the beauty and joy children (and grandchildren) bring to ones life!

    Naif — good luck! I’ll sound like Mother Hen but I do not think anyone should marry before he or she is ready and not simply because the culture dictates it!

  58. @Aafke,

    I agree Islam does not tolerate homosexuality. In Saudi with segregation of sexes homosexual Hebephilia is common. The issue is largely ignored. What is more distressing is that the molesting adult males are not looked at as gays (since they are the tops). While the victims in those cases receive the gay title.

    Logic should dictate that this situation be reversed and society will treat the molesters as criminals. The government authority is really tough on child molesters, but there is so much shame attached to these cases that they hardly ever get reported.

    @Saudi Bedu, Shame on you for using derogatory names like Rafdhi رافضي to describe your countrymen and fellow Muslims. Learn some tolerance.

  59. Considering there is a long history of homoerotic material (art, literature, poetry etc) it would seem that the act of expressing ihomosexual tendencies isnt something that people feel shy to express…its being SEEN as gay that bothers them or can have them labeled gay.

  60. So to summarise: Performing homosexual sex, or abusing small boys in the Middle East is fine, especially as it might safe some Holy Hymens from being torn, and all men are just ignoring the fact that they are being homosexual and call themselves hetero.
    So there are no gay men.

    🙄

  61. Please also send me a copy of this photo.

    From the actual dress, it looks more like a Pakistani / Afghani.

    Regards.

    J

  62. Jeremy,

    Send me an email. The gentleman who is dressed is indeed wearing clothes customary from Southeast Asia (Pakistan/Afghanistan/India). And of course the one putting his clothes back on is simply up to speculation.

  63. gee, I go away for a few days….
    SHAME on you Saudi bedu!!!
    Aafke, I think you should think about becoming a humor writer – you are great with words!!!

    To be a bit more serious… there is a high incidence of anal prolapse. It is thought to be caused by two things:
    1. preserving the hymen pre-maritally
    2. guys get to like the tightness of anal sex in their “school days”.

    I have an unmarried sister, well into her thirties. Needless to say, all sorts of rumours abound. And, they are actually correct, she is gay. Living part of the year in Europe eases her dilemma somewhat. BTW, she is devoutly muslim, and does much good for the community.

  64. Mariam,

    Welcome Back!!!!

  65. A small tidbit of info is that hemmoroids is a common occurence over here…any connection between frequent anal sex and “roids”? :mrgreen:

  66. I respect whom respect me and I step on whom thinking to offend me.

    Saudi in US shame on you to be so naive and believe someone gay “I don’t care even if he do it with animals, it is his life” would call himself Wahhabi gay without meaning to offend the Sunni Muslims and send a false image about Sunni Muslims and it is a poor approach to Distorts our image unless you are Shiite رافضي like him.

    So as we say Arabic “whatever how much the dog bark , the Convoy won’t stop” . Whatever how much the Shiite people try to make us the devil, Allah will expose them……….Allah won’t support the liars, it is that simple.

    It is clear that there is two guy trying to make me the devil and they were trying to be polite which is the fast way to make people disappointed with you………………..come on people don’t take this BS.

    as I said who respect me, I wont offend him, and vice verse.

    It is make me sad that some people fall for this Crap. And for those who think that Shiite are all oppressed people are mistaken and don’t judge me nor them because you don’t live with them as I am sure that you will do the same If I told you anything about United State that you know it false.

  67. Saudi in US and Mariam–I understand such topics are hidden, but if either of you has references to go along with your comments I would appreciate your sharing them. Thanks.

  68. and Mariam, your sister is gay and “Muslim”, any non-Muslim reading what you wrote will LOL because he/she knows that she wont be devoted Muslim if she is a gay. I am not judging your sister but that Islam you know is different than what I know . I am not trying to preach anyone but whatever I do of mistake in my life or sins, I still admit it that it is wrong but a person doing wrong and don’t recognise it as wrong have a very serious problem because someone didn’t told him what is the real Islam.

    If you Didn’t mean that your sister is gay and it was just a rumor then forget what I said.

    and Don’t call me Wahhabi, because that was a British labeling for that Muslims movement on that era. end of story
    I am not wahhabi nor Sunni I am a Muslim following Quran and Hadith and the prophet successors (the Mohamed (PBUH) family) and who followed them on that right path

  69. I mean by “prophet successors” all (mohammad familly + Sahaba (followers )

  70. Coolred–yes, but also being overweight, sedentary, having a low fibre diet, constipation, family history, over age 50, cardiovascular disease, cirrhosis of the liver, or else PREGNANCY! Dibs on research on pregnant Saudi men! LOL 😀

  71. American Bedu–the one putting his clothes back on looks to me like a “white boy” as South Asian students call them. No luck yet on finding a reference to the painting but I did gather the other person is dressed more typically South Asian than Arab. The “meanings” of the painting multiply! 🙂

  72. @SaudiBedu,

    No one is trying to make you the devil, you simply expose yourself for the racist that you are. People like you are the reason our nations live in the dark ages.

    By the way this is not your first rant on this topic. I let you slide a few times, hoping you come to your senses. Our enemy is not the differences in religious believes. Our enemy is hate that people like you hold so deep. Whether you’re Shiia or Sunna does not matter, we need to get rid of it.

  73. Now……………….about that gay thing

    we had the man and the bitch here, and it is CULTURE THING (not In Islam) that the boy on the top is the man doing the man job but on the bottom are doing the women job, so can you see now why they don’t see it as a gay thing. However, it is a shame in the Islamic societies and it is HARAM (forbidden in Islam) because it is not what man created for (the man have a thing that need a woman thing to make life continue ). I should be a teacher because I am making things simple and I communicated these thing easily as it is here. Also, the government is fighting these diseases because it is an Islamic government Duh!. Is there a Muslim here from Saudi Arabia giving the real fact as it is without being a shamed of. Nothing to be ashamed of, It is your religion and IF you are ashamed of it, then HELLO no one will believe you if you told anyone that gayness is Halal. Again, In America, when someone prisoned and it happened that he is weak , naturally, he will become everyone bitch or someone bitch at a specific time that happen here if you are not a man enough to defend yourself or you don’t have someone to defend you. I don’t agree totally on what happen (nor anyone Muslim in Saudi Arabia) of course and as it is very clear to you. The Government behead the rappers and child molesters however, many families choose to keep silence about that because it is very sensitive and whatever that the victim is Innocent, in people mind that boy has been molested. IT is the Idea that the people afraid of that to have someone in the family that had been rapped and the worst is to made it spreading between people that your boy had been molested. As a Example, If the teacher told my father that I has been rapped, he will be disappointed (but not if he told him that I enjoy to be gay ) but If the teacher told him that I was having sex with a boy and acting that I am the man and that boy is the woman then still my father will be disappointed however, it will be slightly forgivable but after he kick my ass.

  74. Our nation are not living on the dark ages, your mind are full of Dark Ages. I can name my self “the Gay Rafedi” so do you think any Shiite won’t comment and respond on my “under the belt” offending……….

    So I simply respond………………..and don’t give me that Crab that I am a racist and I should accept that there is people are different than me………………..what the hell they are or what the hell their religion is………….If they tried to offend me I will hit them in a place that hurt them……and I will use the racist thing that they will not ever thought about so that I an get him………..even If I don’t agree on that…………but just to get them.

    so you play is the one the has been exposed and Don’t ever never judge me because you started to judge me from the first…………..Isn’t that right Saudi in “US” ………

    Again IF you got back to my response on you I didn’t judge but I explained to you why I said that and if you didn’t noticed I did notify you.

    I am Honest and Direct and I don’t Favors anyone

  75. @SaudiBedu,
    “I am Honest and Direct and I don’t Favors anyone”

    You always can tell a racist when they get angry. They start relying on words like Rafdhi (for those that do not know, it is the equivalent of calling blacks the N word). You could have simply used logic to defend whatever you needed to defend. However, you are a sick racist that could not avoid resorting to using the most disgusting racist terms. Worse even, you keep justifying it to yourself. You need to do some soul searching and try to get to terms with what you are before you can solve your hate issues.

    And by the way if i judge you, it is for the things you said. You are responsible for how you present yourself and if others judge you for your vile words, then you should think why that happens.

    Peace….

  76. well I din’t judge my soicity that responsible for the current issue to be backwarded in many of life aspects (technology as an example ), so before saying that just ask yourself what did you do for you own country US boy ( no offense ). It is clear that you didn’t learn from the American anything useful rather than blaming you own society.

    Did you told them what is Nasebi is ( for whom don’t know it is the Shia labeling us and it is the same like N word ) and what I said is a response in the same amount for “Wahhabi Gay”

    and I am sure if one slap you, you will kiss him right?

  77. sorry forgot to say

    peace be upon you and the mercy of Allah and his blessing

  78. Of course I don’t know all these bad words… I am a lady…

    Saudi Bedu, It’s hard to respect somebody who doesn’t have any respect himself for other people and isn’t beneath calling them ugly names and what’s more: judging them as whole groups.

    And your defense of Homosexual sex by using eufemisms like ”man and bitch” and even calling it ”culture” gives me the impression you engage in these gay-sex-activities yourself and feel a dire need to defend your activities…
    Can’t you wait for your pearly boys in Jannah?
    You know if you are a good muslim you will be rewarded with all the sex you can imagine, wether you prefer houris or ”pearly boys”.

  79. Saudi in US and Saudi Bedu–thank you both for explaining the relevent “N” words. Your discussion shares with us all some interesting points. Strictly as a reader/commentator of the blog, I would appreciate a little more decorum–but then maybe that’s just the RC girl coming out in me! 🙂

    Regarding homosexuality–It is certainly haraam in Islam, but all the relevent Quranic verses, Hadith, and laws emphasize “actions”, “deeds”, “committing sins”, behaviours of the “people of Lot”, including the act of gazing on same-sex private parts, or men’s actions of gazing on the beauty of beardless boys– not orientation or identity. The emphasis on actions is part of what makes the cultural definition of homosexuality as not penetrator but penetrated so relevent, despite the Islamic injunction to punish both.

  80. Saudi Bedu, you are apparently denying your right to become educated in a manner befitting a 21st century saudi. Homosexuality is not, according to current research, believed to be a choice. Therefore, since all things Allah has made are wonderful, so are gay people. Had the Prophet understood this, I am sure you would be ok with it. Furthermore, has it occured to you that some day you may have children (inshallah) and that one or more of them might be gay? Would you deny them the right to practice Islam?

    Regarding your blatant predjudice (thanks to saudi in US for translating for our English speaking readers – I was so stunned I replied without translating)…since it is only the middle ages in Islam, shia and sunni civil war could be likened to the strife between Catholicism
    and other forms of Christianity. With education, may enlightenment also arrive. Saudi Bedu, let each find his/her own path. You can be secure in following what you believe to be the truth.

  81. Mariam, but I àm a comic writer! Check out my blog! 😉

  82. Aafke…….. you are just a hater that not worthy of my time

  83. PS thank you American Bedu for your warm welcome.
    I hope and pray that things progress well for you in the United States. Just don’t eat the dates.

  84. Aafke, I shall. One of the many joys of American Bedu’s blog is the marvelous people and blogs I have been made aware of. Nzingha’s is so full of family verve and joy … I shall enjoy yours as well, I am sure.
    Thank you, Carol, for all the joy you give us.

  85. @SaudiBedu,

    LMAO @US Boy ( no offense ). You cannot offend me, because you are obviously a simpleton that does not learn from his mistakes. All you do is deflect and try to add more insults.

    As far as living in the dark ages, Yes we are sliding there. We have crazies running around the country chasing witches. Our education system rejects science and prohibits important books on philosophy, social sciences, scientific theories, politics, etc. We have people like you judging others for their religious believes. We have Sunni’s and Shiia blowing each other up in crowded markets (many of those are Saudi youth recruited to kill themselves). How bad would you like it to be for you to wake up and learn that we need to fix these problems.

    The fact that a person admits that we have issues, does not make him/her disloyal. Loving your country is about finding wrongs and educating the public to fix them. Burying your head in the sand does not resolve anything.

    By the way you are taking us out of topic, but this is the typical way when someone just does not admit a wrong, they start a machine gun approach by attacking others in every topic known to man.

  86. Well , al of you just went away from the real point and using bitch is a describtion of the status of the man and it is the same word used in America so I thought It might help to talk by your own understandable language.

    Mariam, oh my god, end of jokes kalas!
    you didn’t tell if the homosexuality is haram or not, let the non Muslims knows. Don’t make them becoming like Aafke who have a lot of false information and enjoy spreading it without seeking the truth as it is, if he really care or she

  87. During the last weeks, I notice something going on that is not right and I thought that this is just for discussion and understanding of others sake. however, day by day, I realize that some people are using his site to spread their hatred (my Allah guide them to the truth) and some are comparing between nations and religions. I was mistaken, when I thought this site is different but how could I thought that while we are human and we are effected by many influences.

  88. Subhana Allah, why do you stick all those ugly things on me because I respond an Insult to whom wrote it. People, learn from Saudi in US how he made me agree on all of that. I didn’t think I will be blamed for all what happen outside or what done by this stupid government ( witching is Haram still that women issue is controversial ) act and backward minded people who decide our fate.

    I agree that we need to learn from US and the developed country a lot, but I don’t know that the government block something has nothing to do with the religion.As well as, it is their right to protect their regime, so they will ban anything don’t fit their Ideas.However, Should I blame my society, or did you blame the Bedouin……….confess

  89. @Chiara,

    “I would appreciate a little more decorum”

    Seriously, if you do not like the comments, skip over them to the next ones. I comment very little here and only on important topics. I find racism and religious intolerance a very important subject. Hence, I will respond strongly to these things. Like I said, if you do not like the comments skip it. Just do not act like you are teaching us manners here. It is very distasteful. I am just letting you know how these comments you constantly make here are perceived.

  90. @SaudiBedu

    No one called you a Nasebi so there was no need for you to refer to Shias as rafdhi. You blame others for having an agenda to spread hatred on this site but you are doing the same thing with the choice of words you have used.

  91. Saudi Bedu
    You made a mockery of yourself! We Saudis are way higher than you to speak the ay you speak!!

  92. Saudi bedu, I am sorry but you are really dumb if you conclude I am a hater. Everybody with a modicum of intelligence knows I am a very sweet and loving person.
    But I am passionate. And I don’t love hypocrites. And you can’t blame me for that, you know what the prophet thought about hypocrites.

    I also think you don’t have the mindset, or the English knowlege, to understand my sarcastic take, you are not able to see the humorous approach I take, so take everything seriously. You are quite wrong there.

    It’s you who changed the topic here with your comments about ”Dark ages”
    Also your grammar is só bad that I must say I have a hard time figuring out what you are talking about.
    Your last three comments are totally incomprehensible.
    You seem to be a very young man, (young in mental development) who has not learned very much yet, and so you have no idea yet about how little you understand.
    Your racist comments prove that.

  93. you are driving me nuts people …………….it seems that you are trying to not understand what really happened.

    the one who used Wahhabi gay are playing and he were using Wahabi as a nick name. So, Do you know who call us Wahabies………….. yes the Shiite and he even combined it with gay. So I think that you didn’t get it………………….for Example, imagine I used …..Gay Redneck ( as an example)……….what do you understand……………or If I used a Gay Niger…………or a gay Paki………….the examples go on and on.

    Please I don’t need someone to come ans say shame on me how I could use Niger……It is just an Example (just making sure that we have proper communication )

  94. Aafke……………..lol

    yes I know what does that mean and what is the reason to mention something false like ………………….here is an example

    “You know if you are a good muslim you will be rewarded with all the sex you can imagine, wether you prefer houris or ”pearly boys”.”

  95. If you think it is only Shias that call you wahabis then you really need to go out there and talk to different people and gain more experience.

  96. Mariam, and I agree with you: If we are all created by an infallible, all encompassing divine entity, who made some of us, to be orientated towards the same sex, than that is meant-to-be.
    I think these restrictions are man-made, and put into the abrahamic religions by men. And I think humans should try to be a bit less arrogant, and stop imagining they know the plans and thoughts of God, and just accept what He/She has created.

  97. Saudi in US–

    I certainly tried to be as tactful, and least school- marmy as possible. I have said many times that I appreciate your comments, and those of others, even when I disagree (although I often do agree with you). I am well aware and capable of the option to skip over comments, however I do like to readall of them, even the stylistically challenging (for whatever reason) ones, because good points are often made by commentators who are often otherwise less angry.

    In terms of “constantly” asking people to be more polite, I can recall doing so as politely and humbly as possible, while making it clear I am only a reader/commentator on American Bedu’s blog, only 3 times:
    generally on the Umm Adam/Abu Sinan/others debate where American Bedu finally closed the comments;
    to one other person who started off well then deteriorated dramatically in decorum and was reprimanded by a number of people, including yourself if I recall, and no longer comments;
    and this time.

    “Seriously”, I do not claim to teach anyone manners here, and please speak for yourself if you find my comments “very distasteful”, and follow your own advice and skip over them. I have never suggested to anyone not to comment, or not to comment strongly on any topic, or discredited anyone’s right to comment on any topic–more than can be said for some other commentators here, I might add.

    Your taking upon yourself to reprimand me in such a “strong” tone, is disappointing, however, since as I have commented many times I do usually appreciate your contributions.

    At least you had the integrity this time to comment here directly though, and I thank you for that much.

  98. Aafke, don’t talk about my Grammer , try learning the Arabic or any other language before questioning my Grammar, what a simple mind you had…………

    I think you thought I am weak because I refused to be called racist, believe me there is more for everyone of you but I don’t want to be closed minded, but I hate being accused of Ignorance.

  99. PS Saudi in US–I did think before commenting carefully in the middle of a male “micturition contest”*, but obviously misjudged your ability to handle it–another disappointment.

    *”Micturition contest” is not meant to denigrate the topic, nor the substance of the comments, but only to metaphorize the style.

  100. I enjoy Improving my English vocab and phrases, that is my second goal.

    Micturition contest, does this mean us me and my friend

    Anyway…….sorry Chiara for dragging you into this, really sorry.

  101. @Chiara,

    I guess my point is lost.

    Your assumption about me being angry is without basis. If you know me you will know I hardly ever get angry. I am on a heavy regiment of Valume 100% of the time 😉

    I do skip 90% of your messages, because you write so much. In this case I read it because you directed it at me. It will be rude if i skip it.

    You do not get my direct style of writing (i.e. I do not praise you before I tell you how i feel. I find that style to be in bad form), so you’re assuming that I am so how being mean. Now you can accept the input i gave you or leave it. I do not want to get into long discussions about how you or I behave. My advise, is leave policing of the blog to its owner.

    Good luck….

  102. SaudiBedu, read the quran and you’ll remember.
    ”On every dining sheet 70,000 types of foods will be served. For their service 80,000 young boys will be moving around looking like beautiful scattered pearls.”

    That’s what gay men like isn’t it? ”Pure” ”white” and hairless boys???

  103. you are mistaken …………………………don’t explain our religion based on your thoughts.

    that it is not what it is mean ………………….

    Imagine seeing a cute little girl or boy and you will be amazed of thier facial structure and how wonderfull, how perfect they were created, and how they are perfect in very feature. it is not what you meant. But, are you going to listen to anyone other than your mind.

  104. Saudi Bedu–thank you for your comment and you did not drag me into this. I do genuinely appreciate the points you make in your comments, while agreeing with some and disagreeing with others.

    “Micturition contest”, or more accurately a “male micturition contest” is using a medical term, “micturition”, for “urination”, or “peeing”, in the place of the common North American (rude) expression “pissing contest”. It comes from the contests boys, adolescents, and young men have to see who can pee farthest, fastest, with the highest arc, and most (rather like the Olympic slogan “faster, higher, stronger” come to think of it 😀 😀 ). It refers to men arguing with each other, or one-upping each other, often just for the sport of it (though not necessarily so in this case).

    Like I said, I try to be polite :mrgreen:

    Thanks again for your comment, and no need to be sorry. 🙂

  105. please give me the Sorah and ayah and I will tell you Ibn Qatheer Tafseer

  106. SB, I did not mean to comment negatively on your defective grammar as such, everybody has to learn languages, and it takes time and effort. I speak five btw, English is not my native language, but the consequence of your still imperfect mastering of the language is that many times, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to find out what your meaning is.

  107. @Chiara,

    I really think you are going way out of line. The comment about a pissing contest adds another dimension to your disillusionment. It shows how little you think of others. What you said is sexist at best and really tried to reduce what we say into a testosterone induced argument.

    The fact is, I got into this as part of worrying about how Saudi’s Sunni and Shiia treat each other. Your comment is uncalled for, especially from someone that does not know how to stop commenting. Your comments fill this blog on a daily basis. And somehow, having a debate about racism is a Pissing contest?

    Your idea that people can disagree and be so polite as to hold hands and Skip Threw the Tulips is just naive.

  108. Wow!!! A chest thumping king of the mountain match..cool.

    And all this schoolyard slanging match is furthering the topic discussion how exactly?

    entertaining yes…productive….NO!!

  109. Saudi Bedu–

    Your point was not lost, and I am well aware of your style.

    I realize that you are direct though not mean. Let’s just say that I make a living analyzing written and spoken styles, and am well rewarded and well-trained to do so. Therefore you needn’t think I perceive you as mean where you are not.

    As I have pointed out before, I do not thank people just for style, nor as a passive aggressive tactic, nor as a lull before the parry and thrust. I do so genuinely, because I like the content, or the intellectual stimulation it provides. I do understand that some have misinterpreted this, and I too consider passive aggression to be in bad form.

    Although some have misperceived my comments, or accused me of “policing” the blog, I have always praised the blog owner’s capacity to do so, and when I have commented about decorum have specifically referenced her as the blog mistress and my place as a reader/commentator.

    I too do not want to get into long discussions about our respective behaviours, but I do trust you are well aware of the impacts of yours, and that one might argue you have attempted to police me–twice now in this thread; and as you are aware, elsewhere too.

    I wish you good luck as well, and I thank you again for having the integrity this time to address your concern directly and here.

  110. believe me it is enough and understandable, but I am trying to use more words but that does not effect how I understand you guys and It does not effect how I represent my Ideas.However, some time I become hasty in typing and here you go, some little mistakes that don’t effect the core of the idea. your advice has been put into consideration and that what attract me to this blog.

  111. SB
    52:24, I have the Yousuf Ali translation:
    Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.

    57:17, talking about ”boys of eternale freshness” I suppose that equals the eternal virgin maidens…

    76:19 again: ”And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls. ”

  112. and If you consider IELTS Cambridge as a reliable source , I got 6.5 in every skill on the latest Exams that happened the last week. and still improving……

    so If you are not sure that you got what I meant, just demand me for more elaboration.

  113. Abu Nuwas, from ”the perfumed garden” a book that was very notorious in Victorian England:

    O the joy of sodomy!
    So now be sodomites, you Arabs.
    Turn not away from it–
    therein is wondrous pleasure.
    Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
    twisting on his temple
    and ride as he stands like some gazelle
    standing to her mate.
    A lad whom all can see girt with sword
    and belt not like your whore who has
    to go veiled.
    Make for smooth-faced boys and do your
    very best to mount them, for women are
    the mounts of the devils

  114. And what a disguting hatred of women this shows as well.
    Typical too of ancient greece, where old men took young boys for lovers, becasue women were so ”inferirior that love wold be thrown away upon them”

  115. but even does that mean, that there is a gay faithful people who will enter the heaven, while Islam state that those must be punished. and If I told you how cute your child is , are you going to scream at me and you will say that I am pervert, It is a description of how perfect they were created. Quran is clear and there is no statement mention any sexual conduct with them nor it prizing them for their patience in life from not having sex with males……………….none

    believe me it is my Arabic Language and I understand it , yet we are strict to our prophet explanation of Quran which has been reach us through his followers, so any other explanation is skype. Like what happen when I explained my words, so does others explanation eliminate mine ?

  116. skype 🙂 I am addicted …………..I mean skipped

  117. SB, only you can explain your words, for even if they are misunderstood, or your thoughts were not well expressed, you know yourself what you wanted to make clear. It is inherent in language, that, no matter how developed the language, we can still misunderstand each other very easily.
    So I would always listen to a further elaboration with interest and an open mind.

    I have other Arab speaking friends who assure me that this is exactely what is meant: In Jannah men are rewarded with lots of earthly delights: unending food, costly dress and jewels, endles sex with eternal pure virgins, or perpetual fresh pearly boys, devoted to their masters…..

    And I don’t have children but you will be welcome to tell me how cute they are once I have some 🙂

  118. Coolred–agreed.

    Saudi in US–before the ad hominem attack (or ad feminem in this case) please read more carefully. From above (and a short comment I might add):

    *”Micturition contest” is not meant to denigrate the topic, nor the substance of the comments, but only to metaphorize the style.

    and again:

    …often just for the sport of it (though not necessarily so in this case).

    The metaphor is not sexist, since it is an idiomatic expression, and accurately reflects its origins (girls may have micturition races but for obvious reasons do not engage in the biological full contest) and the gender of the participants in this situation.

    I am well aware of your reason for commenting on the Sunni/Shia issue, and aside from the clarifications of the “N” words, followed the important argument for the need for respect between Shia and Sunni well. Since I do read your comments I was aware of the issue from before.

    I am not in the least disillusioned nor denigrating of others. As I said, I was disappointed in aspects of your comment to me, and grateful for others.

    Please note that most of your 3rd (!) comment to me is a policing (your term) of my behaviour (your term). Your last line seems to indicate you have me confused with someone else.

    And now I would suggest, that since we have had the opportunity to express ourselves here honestly and directly, we defer to the blog mistress, and since she has other preoccupations in life, agree to disagree without bombarding her with emails, and leave her the choice as to whether she wishes to comment on this topic here at all.

  119. I know nothing about that poem, but the question is Is it allah word (Quran) or Mohammad (PBUH) ( hadeath )

  120. I will tell you that , they are mistaken………………..

    If that in my religion “molesting children” believe me I won’t be a muslim

  121. @Chiara,

    I give up, “No one can out talk you”

    Now have the last word like you always do….

  122. SB, it is neither isn’t it? It’s a poem. Abu Nuwas was a courtier and he wrote ”The Perfumed Garden” which was translated in the nineteenth century by an English bloke, forgot his name, and that ruined his reputation because of the explicit nature of the poems.
    But it does represent the attitude of some Arabs towards what really is homosexual sex, no matter who is ”on top”, or ”standing like some gazelle”
    And ”Take some coy lad with kiss-curls
    twisting on his temple” smack like child abuse.
    As is marrying off 9 year old girls to old depraved pedophiles.

  123. Saudi in US

    Hardly, kudos on the tactic though.

    And I am sincere when I say that I sincerely hope American Bedu will not be barraged needlessly with emails on this account.

    I do genuinely look forward to reading your future substantive comments.

    Salaam/Pace

  124. Chiara, it’s not Saudi in US who tends to make the very, very loooong substantive comments here.

  125. Aafke–I didn’t say he did.

    Thanks for making me aware of the poet Abu Nawas. From his biography and writings, he was a submissive partner to his older male mentor, and when older a pederast (hebephile) and “bon vivant” himself, who took delight in writing wittily and satirically about homosexuality, drinking, and other “vices” of Arab culture, while dismissing lesbianism as “inane”. I’ll enjoy learning more about the stylistic innovations that make him one of the greatest Arab poets! 🙂

    In terms of the post, or a least the direction of the comments, Abu Nawas is a good reminder that most tops and bottoms change positions, so to speak. :mrgreen:

  126. anyway, it is disgusting topic, and please give me the Arabic version. Can you answer my question.Despite the level of accuracy you had about our history and our religion, What are tending to do with such information?

  127. SaudiBedu

    Islam is clear regarding homosexuality, it is not permissable. Ignore others who want to twist the words of the Koran to give it a new meaning, a meaning that we have already been told that it is forbidden.

  128. goodness…I am away from the blog for an afternoon and come back to such a medley of comments and well, debates!

    Suggestion…no, make that request, anyone having disagreements/differing point of views not in align with the post topic, please move to the debate page.

    Now I will throw something out related to the post and based on some of the comments. Several commentors remarked that a man (or a woman) may have a sexual experience or encounter with someone of the same sex due to cultural constraints. These individuals are not viewed as gay. Yet then there were comments about the male coming to enjoy anal sex and the tightness thereof. (apologize for the blunt talk but not sure how to soften it) So is that an assumption or are there facts to back up that Saudi and/or Arab men mature preferring anal sex? And if so, how does one tactfully warn a woman in advance, especially given that these subjects are not necessarily talked about so directly?

  129. Thank you for re-posing this question.

    The only remotely relevent statistic I could find is a University of Columbia study showing 10% of heterosexual American couples regularly have anal sex.

    In anticipation of the answers from those who described the phenomenon in Saudi, I can only recommend that those who practice heterosexual anal sex be aware of the medical risks, and the appropriate techniques to prevent or at least minimize medical complications, all the while remembering that though this is the “lesser liwat” it is still unIslamic. Also Kegle exercises are recommended for all who prefer tightness, whether vaginal or anal.

  130. Well Bedu I was going to give the “bottom line” argument…you kinda beat me to it:

    Arab men have social tendencies that in other “societies” would be deemed homosexual.

    Arab men don’t like to be told they may have homosexual tendencies due to their “prison-like” lifestyles.

    And like most men they will enter into a “pissing contest” even when they refuse to acknowledge it.

    Women with the same “tendencies” can be true homosexually oriented- or just passing the time out of shear boredom- I would tell them to point in another direction.

    BTW Dominican men have an admitted gay population- the rest are sexual indulgers of women- the amount of concurrant “girlfriends; mistress and other kept women” is a clear indication- but when they are homophobic the initiator usually ends up in the hospital.

  131. Wow! Go away for 24 hours and the place explodes!!!

    1. Aafke: videos were soo surprising. I know this is a famous dance – but I have always seen it with women dancing for men. Definitely extremely disturbing with men and boys doing it for other men. No one fully answered what the deal was there…

    2. Chiara, at least now adays, Christians are also taught to “lover the sinner, hate the sin”

    3. Saudi Bedu – you are an ass. “Let he among you who is without sin throw the first stone.” We are also so pitifully behind God’s perfection, who are we to say which people will or will not recieve God’s mercy!?!?

    4. American Bedu – if this wasn’t such a puritan crowd, I could tell a hilariously mortifying story about an anal proposition. Needless to say, I was mortified, disgusted, and repulsed. And that was a “good catholic boy” on our third date, when we hadn’t even kissed yet!!! Men will be total bastards to get what they want.

  132. Aside from the arguments above..I haven’t really bothered reading up.. but Gay Wahhabi coined his name to offend no matter who he is.. because Saudi Sunnis never use the term Wahhabi to address themselves, its just be as offensive to a Sunni like Nawasib or to Shia as Rafidah. . I can understand where Saudibedu were coming from with this. But I really don’t care about opinions.. cause each has his own on the internet.. Just coining the name Gay Wahhabi would usually put any Sunni Saudi in arms against an imaginary Shia enemy. That assumption goes both ways.

    If you have noticed.. Gay Wahhabi never followed up to this. If I am wearing my tin foil hat correctly.. its would mean he never planned on follow up. He came with a mission to offend. From my youtube trolling experience… I would say there are two conspiracy theories to view this.. I mean three.. Pan-secular (Shia vs Sunnis), Pan-political (Iran vs Saudi), Pan-religious. Its hard to explain the last one especially.. some people are lead to believe that there is an Arab Christian groups that like to shake things up between comments about Saudi Arabia.. its too far stretched to be honest… but if you heard the story of the claimed Jesus Martyr Saudi Fatimah Al Mutairi and understood Saudi Arabia geopoiltics.. you would think you cannot rule out the possibility .

    To be fair. everybody has a homosexual side to him.. and every community as well has such side. All of us have our own moral values.. but thats what they are.. In the end the world can still move on without moral guidance it only makes the world go better for most of us but leaves many of us to be judged by standards they don’t share with us. How easy we lose these moral codes whenever someone’s else’s threatens ours. How a person for example will not kill another person.. but if he was given a gun and were told to execute a murderer, I wonder how many people will lose their values?

    There is an experimental game about what I am talking about in the last passage, you can download it from here http://www.venbrux.com/execution/Execution.zip

  133. Tanya–agreed re: contemporary Christian teaching, although not so sure the current Pope would, and obviously not all good Catholic boys are listening to the Pope 😀

    DW–thanks, excellent analysis of the geo-cultural-political dynamics of this particular bait and disappear. 🙂

  134. Thank you all for the continuing enjoying comments and discussion.

  135. Considering that anal sex is in fact forbidden in Islam…the number of women I personally know that complain that their husbands basically rape them to accomplish anal rape is horrendous…I know a few others that have used the force of anal sex as reasons to obtain a divorce…none of those women were sucessful when standing before the judge who told them they “shouldnt have allowed their husband to approach something haram in his weakened sexual state” (or something like that)…in other words…it was their fault for submitting to it…as if all rape victims have much say in what happens to them.

    btw Im speaking from very personal experience here…most judges dont give a shit about what sexual perversions Muslim men get up too…read any newspaper (especially Bahrains) and see the minor and inadequate jail terms pedophiles, molesters, and rapists get…if anything.

    It seems that men here are given free license to express their sexual desires in anyway they choose with little or no backlash when the victim is either female or a young child…but gay sex is a no no…it can get you killed.

    Such hypocrites

  136. Tanya, I don’t remember that I said something about “you are out of Allah Mercy “, as well as , behave…

  137. when I comment, I just talk about Saudi only, not other Gulf country nor middle eastern countries. Gayness is not a something you had with you when you born, otherwise, all the evilness in the world would be a fact in the humanity and we would accept it as a normal human behaviour, hen we shouldn’t jail the rapper, the rapper, the pedophile, the list go on……. Sometime, we say a boy behave or act like a girl, and that is normal to me and what I mean b behaving is talking and his body move. I think that because he didn’t spend much time with men or boys. Here in Saudi Arabia, the gay boys has been screwed up and don’t annoying me by questioning how do I got to that conclusion, because it is not. IT is what happen in our schools, and If I wouldn’t proof that I am a bad-ass other wise they will screw me too. My father, thanks to him, gave me an advices that yes it made me shocked and scared me hence it was the reality to protect me, and I seen it like my father told me.

  138. as well as IF a man are having a sex with his women anally, then he is not man because he is treating her like a prostitute as well as he is acting against the Islamic teaching and Islam teaching proof to me that it is goer the good of human.All of us knows what is the job of that hole, and what is the job of the Vagina.And having a sex with a man , it is not because of his tighten hole it is for reasons as I mention before ( I am talking about Saudi only).

    My words might be direct but we are all a mature individuals.

  139. SaudiBedu…some (alot) of people in the world accept gay “behavoir” as normal…because they believe they did not choose to be gay…and others accept it even though they themselves are not gay…because they believe that a persons private sexual history is no business but their own…and between all of these people is the general belief that God created human beings to love..and find desire and attraction to each other…but did NOT give us the ability to choose who we loved and desired and felt attracted to. simple really

  140. Surprised no one mentioned the ever popular ‘God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” phrase. 😀

  141. God did not create us to lead homosexual lives.

  142. LOL…This is the best Blog ever! I love reading the comments on here:-$

  143. Current theories of homosexuality emphasize that the orientation itelf is a biological one from birth, which is why Muslim physicians, among others, emphasize that the religious problem is more with acting on that orientation and those desires, rather than having the orientation itself (Quranic verses, hadith, and Islamic law support this idea with their emphasis on the actions). Thus homosexual practice is haraam, as is sodomy of anyone (male or female) or any animal.

    3-5% of men worldwide are by orientation and unforced preference gay/bi-sexual. So while God may not have created us to lead homosexual lives, he did create some with that sexual orientation who now must deal with how to fulfil their other human desires for romantic love, sexual pleasure, and procreation/ family.

    Some argue with conviction that they do so by congregating in the gay villages of the best, most artistic, most beautiful cities in the world (San Francisco, Vancouver, Florence, Tangiers, etc) 😀

  144. Adnan–in terms of slogans, I guess you are not in favour of “We’re here. We’re queer. Get used to it.”? 😀

    Gloria–so comment on the best Blog/best topic ever!! 😀

  145. I am aware of all what you said, and really I don’t care about them much but don’t told me that it is normal ( don’t tell me define “normal” just read my previous comments, becasue there is the normal people and the abnormal people pedophiles ).

  146. Saudi Bedu–Homosexuals, pederasts (hebephiles), pedophiles, cross-dressers (usually heterosexual), transexuals/transgendered, and rapists are distinct (but sometimes overlapping) groups. You are not required to think any of them are normal, but they do exist in reliable percentages in all cultures.

    So, for example one might say that if 95-97% of a population is heterosexual, 3-5% are an “abnormal” minority, but for those people, homosexuality is “their normal orientation” and what they do with it in terms of identity and behaviour is a jihad (personal struggle) within Islam given that submission to Allah would have them seeking a heterosexual identity and behaviours.

    I some how managed to mis-spell my name 😦 (too much caffeine? not enough? 🙂 ), and so am awaiting moderation on another related comment. 😦

  147. This is a delicate topic. I’m still convinced that there are higher incidences of homosexual behavior in Saudi due to the extreme segregation further impacted by the natural curiosity that accompanies developing bodies and emotions.

  148. I hit submit too soon. Want to add that while I think there are higher incidences of such behavior I also do not believe that all those who may engage or experiment in such behavior would be categorized as gay either.

  149. American Bedu–my understanding is that such segregation would result in transient homosexual behaviours of convenience (eg in prison populations, segregated military populations, all boys boarding schools), and is combined in adolescence with a certain willingness to experiment, or being coerced. These people usually don’t identify themselves as gay, and don’t engage in the behaviours once they have access to heterosexual partners (eg. de-segregation, travel, marriage).

    My question way up there was whether the commentators who said that Saudis retain a preference for homosexual sex, or anal sex after marriage, or are homosexual in higher numbers than elsewhere, have any references so that I could understand this better. I have done a couple of brief searches and not found anything relevent.

  150. segregation have nothing to do with homosexuality, I know what do you mean by that but still there is nothing to do with lesbians and queers << new word from someone in here 🙂 . Some Saudi girls “lesbians” do say that what they did because they can’t do it with boys because of the difficulties to do it with boys without being caught or abused by that boy………does that mean there is segregation in our community. What we had is some men controlling their wives, should we say that is segregation , if we do then there is many men in US do the same to their wives “controlling them”. Or do you want the girls to study with the boys. you will do a good job if you explain exactly what do you mean by segregation if you think I didn’t get you ?

  151. there is no reference ?? what kind of reference do you need ?

  152. I would disagree that segregation leads to homosexuality. I do think that one needs to add in a sad cycle of abuse that is going on in saudi to understand some of the issues under discussion here. I think this is what Saudi Bedu alluded to above, I could be wrong but that is how I understood it.

  153. Nzingha…I dont think its meant that segregation leads to homosexuality…as homosexuality is a state of a sexual being…but it does lead to homosexual acts…which are distinctly different…as some commentors stated…segregation can lead to sex with same gender partners…but it doesnt necessarily mean those two people are gay/lesbian…maybe more to do with circumstance and opportunity…mixed with curiosity and natural sexual desire that need expressing in some way….my two cents

  154. I think in some cases the segregation of women spending the majority of time with women and men spending the majority of time with men can lead to sexual experimentation with the same sex. If anyone watched the videos which Aafke linked, you’ll see that a young guy does a very provocative dance with sexual innuendos even with young children present. And I’ve also seen women dancing with women which in my view was a bit “too much and over the top” but again, I do come from a conservative perspective.

  155. “Segregation” is a challenging word, given its association in the US with racial segregation, but here I understand it to mean, and use it to reference, the fact that in Muslim countries, and Saudi moreso than some others, men and women are separated so they have very little interaction with one another beyond immediate mahrem family members (sisters, brothers, parents, children).

    This is similar to, but not the same as, what in the Western world would be separate schools for girls and boys, separate social clubs, summer camps, parties, or being in an institution which maintains gender separation (military–though not so much anymore, prison, hospital ward, convent/monastery).

    At the risk of sounding obtuse, are Saudi Bedu and Nzingha referring to systemic sexual abuse of adolescents by other adolescents? teachers? family members? organized groups of hebephiles?

    By references, I mean if you are aware of a scholarly study or government/non-government report that has been done on this topic that you could link to so I could read and understand more. Something like “Preference for anal sex among Saudi men and its effects on marriage”, or “Incidence of homosexuality in Saudi adolescents” from a university or an investigative journalist or the WHO or UN for example.
    Something other than the literary musings of a libertine, or the well articulated philosophy of a homosexual, or the advocacy of a GLBTQ group.

    I found these more broad references:
    http://books.google.ca/books?id=BsGD6Dao_AgC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=adolescent+homosexuality+saudi&source=bl&ots=C5ApVjg58x&sig=mA7zYGjm2j3JycVN7hh5XP9vmE4&hl=en&ei=li3eSa-iHojONP773Vw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA157,M1 (higher prevalence of adolescent homosexuality and occasionaly homosexual sex by husbands)
    From “The Saudis” by Sandra Mackay, an American who lived in Saudi for years.

    Or Samir Khalil Samir, SJ (Arab priest?)
    http://www.impactmagazine.net/v41n04/multiculturalism.html (higher prevalence of hebephilia)

  156. longer, or as some would say looong comment with a couple of links awaiting moderation 🙂 🙂
    Did get my name right, though 😀

  157. I understood you coolred , but do the others will distinguish between the two. I know someone who we call him pederast ( لوطي Pronounce: lotty ) is married now, but I am sure if happened and someone offer him to do sex with a boy he won’t refuse it. But that does not mean he is looking for it. I am not saying that all the Saudi people do this here. If I expressed my admiration for a boy or a teen in away shows my sexual attraction, my friend who hear me will laugh and call me what a pederast. It is something forgivable for some people – in a certain age – here but it will change if you are the boy who do the woman job.

    reminder, Islam condemn all what I mention above.

  158. Saudibedu…I understand…they are pretty forgiving of pedophiles too

  159. cool- than i got lost in translation there. 🙂 I don’t know lock me up with a bunch of women and the last thing I want to do is start getting it on with one of them. Plus I wouldn’t agree that Saudi is that segregated in reality that there aren’t available members of the opposite sex.

    I again say that the cycle of abuse needs to be considered within Saudi. The numbers unfortunately are staggering.

  160. they are forgiving in certain age and between friends only, but in public those acts are condemned and it is not some thing to be proud about or spreading it among people……………………this is more information for the people who don’t know this.

  161. Nzingha–could you elaborate on which cycle of abuse you are referring to? Sorry to be obtuse.

    Not all men/women will engage in homosexual/ lesbian acts even if in prolonged segregation (eg prison term), but some do (or are coerced), and some are in fact gay/lesbians by preference.

  162. Nzingha…what Chiara said…obviously not everyone would engage in homosexual activities…but like I said…opportunity and curiosity might be a deciding factor.

    My friend that works as a guidance councellor in an all girls govt school has many stories to tell about catching girls with girls, girls with teachers….and of course girls with boys and men…but Bahrain isnt as closed off as Saudi so girls have more opportunities to meet boys if they really want to…but apparently “getting” with a girl is a new craze here now…girls are doing it just to be seen as cool…or rebellious etc…nothing to do with being lesbians.

  163. Coolred–it is so true, that trying out homosexuality/ lesbianism is currently a fad, and when I ask about sexual orientation now (in the course of a professional interview) heterosexual young adults reply rather sheepishly and hasten to add that they think homosexuality is okay, but they’re just not into it.

    A fad I’m not particularly in favour of, because it can make people psychologically vulnerable about something so profound as sexual orientation. Moreso because most are all talk and little action on this, leaving the naive even more vulnerable.

  164. Actually, a relevant western example are the prestigious women’s colleges here, Smith and Wellesley. From what folks say, not only do they attract legitimate self-acknowledged lesbians, but there are many, many more who try it out for 4 years, then go back to their heterosexual natures. I am not sure what explains it.

    I went to a co-ed college, but I did have a female friend who dated men her first two years at college, then dated women the second two years. Then she dated women for another 3 years after college, then ditched them, and now, 8 years after college is married to a man. what the heck?!?! And she is still one of the nicest, most generous and genuine people I have ever met!

  165. Saudi Bedu: Here is what you said that I really disliked:

    and Mariam, your sister is gay and “Muslim”, any non-Muslim reading what you wrote will LOL because he/she knows that she wont be devoted Muslim if she is a gay.

    There was another thing I thought I really disagreed with, but then, I couldn’t be totally sure what you meant to say, so I will leave it out. Again, who are we to judge who is or isn’t good in God’s eyes? especially when talking in terms of genetic make-up. Are you going to get rid of crippled people? Blind people? Blonde-haired or red-haired people? These are things God made us with!

  166. chiara- sexual abuse mainly it is quite alarming some of the stats that have come out of the kingdom. Also because that abuse is not addressed the cycle continues and it worsens.

    I’ve also found that overbarring male figures in the home lead women to seek out other women. Their image of ‘man’ is so frightening for them that they reject the idea completely and seek out the comfort of another woman in a relationship.

  167. Well its well known fact that women make the best husbands… :mrgreen:

  168. I wonder if the region one is in or the particular families lead to more “sexual experimentation” with the same sex in Saudi Arabia? For example, Jeddah and the Eastern Province cities are known to be much more open than Riyadh and Nej’d. I know many families in Riyadh who only see their immediate (sanctioned) male relatives and observe strict segregation. And of course when they go out, they are not just covered but completely veiled. Yet these same women among a group of women will often be found in quite revealing fashions and have no problems dancing closely and gyrating with other women. They are comfortable in such an environment. Some do experiment with other women even though they may already be married with children. So why is this? My armchair psychology places it to the fact of being brought up in such a traditional closed environment with the strict segregation in place. They simply do not know how to be comfortable with men and in some cases view marriage to a man as fulfilling family duty. This is the attitude and tradition that disturbs and saddens me.

  169. Nzingha–thanks for clarifying. I take it you mean sexual abuse within the family rather than in the schools? That would then tend to be father-daughter or brother-sister, or are Saudi statistics different?

    What I read stated unequivocally that women suffer the most physical violence in the home. Not surprising then, if some turn for affection to other women.

    I am finding a real dearth of research information on this topic, so I’ll have to go “armchair” too, and speculate, based on other dynamics, that the more strict segregation would favour more same-sex experimentation in a place like Riyadh over a more liberal setting, and that turning to women is safer physically–less violence (though not always, lesbians in the West have problems with domestic violence), and NO PREGNANCY (to reveal the haraam activity and burden with consequences or decisions about consequences), and also religiously/legally–less likely to be accused for adultery or fornication, and punished.

    It is sad that women may find themselves engaging in behaviours they are conflicted about because of other social strictures.

  170. I think that when Saudi Bedu said that a devout Muslim can’t be gay, means that for that matter a devout Muslim is not an OPEN SINNER. We all sin, it’s our nature, but a devout Muslim will not make their sin an open and acceptable part of life. If he said that an alcholi was not a devout Muslim would you have come t he defense? Name your sin…a liar, a cheater, a thief, a homosexual who acts upon it…they are not devout Muslims. Now let’s go with your theory that this homesexuality is innate and people are born that way….people can still control themselves. So a devote Muslim with homesexuality tendecies would not follow their desires…they would fight the urge to engage in homosexual activities for the sake of Allah.

  171. chiara- within the family and outside the family, there are sexual abuse problems in schools which are a reflection of boys who have been abused who go on to be abusers. Not all who have been abused become abusers but you know the stats I’m sure. Than of course the abused tend to act out in sexual ways which would bring about more sexual issues.

    for the women it is both, there was a recent study although small which suggested an extremely high number of sexual abuse for women in saudi. So I do think it is a few things when it comes to wome 1. the sexual abuse 2. the male dominance that they tend to hate so much they can’t see themselves with any man and that would be due to another type of abuse for them.

    oh i got stories but I won’t share them online feel free to email me at nzinghas3-at-yahoo-dot-com

  172. Nzingha–thanks for clarifying further. I’ll send you an email!

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