Saudi Arabia: Why is the West Viewed as so Immoral?

There are those in Saudi Arabia who seem to share a perception that anyone from the West is immoral.  That Westerners (Americans, in particular) thrive and take joy in drugs, alcohol, profanity, promiscuity and so on… They seem to believe that once an American child is born the child is on the path to immorality. The perception is further influenced by the American television shows that have been chosen to be broadcast to the Arab world or by the various commercial ads or magazines that make their way into Saudi Arabia.

I wish that every Saudi who has the perception that all Americans are immoral infidels could spend time with “regular” Americans.  What is a “regular” American, you may ask?  I call a regular American as the individuals who are not in the media and live simple day-to-day lives just like the majority of Saudi citizens.  These regular American’s, whether male or female, share many of the same traditions and concerns as “regular” Saudis.

A day in the life of my own family is likely very similar to that of a Saudi family when taking into consideration cultural traditions and values.  In spending time with my eldest sister it made me recall many treasured family members.  My sister and I would start our day with preparing the morning meal (breakfast) together –after first greeting and blessing one another.  After chatting over our coffee and then cleaning up, we’d excuse ourselves for showers.  Our days would be spent in a simple manner.  We did NOT have MTV blaring out on the TV.  My sister is a devout Catholic and similar to Saudis who enjoy watching Quran TV, my sister liked to keep her TV tuned to EWTN which continually broadcasted various programs associated with Catholicism. My sister generally attends daily Catholic services.  In between the service she would clean her house and run errands.  She takes great pride in presenting a warm and welcoming home.  Her priority is taking care of her family.  Nothing gives her greater pleasure than spending time with her Grandchildren.

Her life does not have drugs (other than prescription medications!), alcohol, profanity, promiscuity or other vices (unless chocolate is considered a vice).  Her life is not that different from the majority of Americans either.  So why do too many Saudis seem to take such pleasure in promoting the West and specifically America as so immoral?

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813 Responses

  1. Carol,

    I have given this much thought. I think it is a matter of different values AND a need to reinforce the difference in values between the West and Islam.

    After all, if people in the West are as moral as, and they are not Muslims, then Islam has no claim to a superior morality. Hence, because they are infidels, they must be less moral, or more immoral if you wish, than Muslims. It is the eternal need to find a badge of superiority to wear to show you are better than others. This can be race, religion, looks, money, whatever.

    Taking this from another angle, one can also mention the broad characterization of non-Muslims as either ignorant or, more likely, as evil-doers in the Quran. Certainly this is a factor also.

    Personally, I would think it would be a great time to have a playoff, a World Cup of Immorality (another great JK idea!) between Muslims and the West, and see who wins. This competition would be limited to common folks, with no pros allowed.

    Jay

  2. @Jay,

    Your theory doesnt hold water because the same impressions are held by Middle Eastern Christians. Is Islam to blame for their ideas?

    Anyways, it is all about appearances. Everything that happens in the USA happens in Saudi, it just doesnt happen in the open. All too often appearance means more than substance in the Middle East. As long as everything looks okay it doesnt really matter whether it is or not.,

  3. Abu, So could you then define “immorality” or, better yet, give me examples of “immoralities”, preferably ranked (the old oranges and apples thing).

    I think what you are saying is that many of things done in the West by individuals are perceived by Muslims (and Middle eastern Christians) as immoral. I give you points there. It just happens that many Christians in the West, as well as a bunch of other folks (evangelicals, JWs, Amish, atheists, Orthodox of all stripes, Mormons, Buddhists, you get the idea….) also see these things as immoral.

    So is it then that the Muslim mainstreet is right?

    Not so quick there, buster.

    It seems that Muslims are quick to overlook their own immoralities while so conveniently condemning Western immorality. I hate to break it to you but there are things just as bad as or worse than nudity, homosexuality (?), drugs, divorce, infidelity, etc. that are common practice in Islamic societies. These are not only practiced but institutionalized in Muslim societies and are manifest in so many ways. Have I lost you?

    Take care. J

    PS: You didn’t like the “world Cup of Immorality” idea, did you?

  4. Jay, I think Abu Sinan was saying that the same things happen in both cultures only in Saudi it’s kept more hush hush.

    I agree that many of us here believe those things are immoral and I hate that the TV and movies we export show us in such a bad light. I don’t like people thinking *all* Americans are like the celebrities they see. We have all types.

    I’m curious if it’s OK in Islam to watch such immoral shows. I know sex outside of marriage is wrong in Islam, but what about watching it on TV where it’s often shown in a good, normal light? Is it OK to watch sinful actions as long as you aren’t participating and people don’t know you are enjoying what sinful things others are doing in the ‘immoral West’? And when does all the watching start affecting the culture so they start acting like the people they watch on TV and enjoy in movies?

    I enjoyed this post and learning about your sister, Carol. She seems much like some in my family only we aren’t Catholic. 🙂

  5. Actually it is not only in saudi arabia, but all over the middle east. Chastity is of utmost importance in the region, the TV series always show that this is of no value what so ever in europe or USA. In the middle east no father or brother would dream of letting his daughter or sister go out ‘dating’…which is the utmost norm in the western society. The idea that a girl is a virgin till married is an integral part of the culture muslims and christians of the region, something portrayed as a stigma to be gotten rid of at ‘prom nights’ , that is the main reason for your question.

  6. @ jay. yes you are right, no society is perfect ofcourse. However allow me a comment here. There are numerous ‘islamic’ societies that range from the USA even to south east asia, each with its own charactaristics. To belong to a religion is different than belonging to a society. Take Egypt for example, the norm there is the same for christians and muslims. It is the norm to be religious, being an aethist is not tolerated by that society ( something that in the west is). Both have the same traditions and just differ in how and where they worship God. Saudi societies are different, and those are also different from north african ones that are also islamic. 🙂 just a note.

  7. i would like to note the choice of topics that build up an enriching and animated discussion..
    i take off my hat 😉 ( if i wore one)

  8. @Jay.
    i just happened to read your first email to Carol. You are taking this the wrong way. The discussion is not about who versus who, not a “cup’ to be won. It is not a win-lose discussion. It was a question posed that was researching a cause. But, if you want to be academic, then you compare nation to nation, not society to a religion, but society to society. Homosexuality is ofcourse present all through the middle east, but it is not celebrated and is percieved through religious eyes as sinful, the norm of the society. So what does that say? it says that not everyone is really devout in their religion, that is all.
    So no need for that ‘cup’ you created. It is not a conflict here, but a discussion.

  9. I’d have to we don’t value virginity like Saudis do. Prom is pretty popular on popping that. Other than that I agree. Most Americans are not drug addicts or anything, however, again, a vast majority do drink.

    I guess they view us immoral the same way most Americans view Saudis as barbaric.

    It’s not fair on either side. At all.

  10. Dr. Nassef, so dating as in a guy and a girl going out to eat or to a movie or bowling would be consider immoral in your society? I’m not talking about the couple having a physical relationship, but just going out to get to better know one another.

    So young adults can only go out with people of the same sex – men with men and women with women until time for their arranged marriage. How do they get to know each other?

    I didn’t realize dating was considered immoral per se. I knew it wasn’t Islamic, but I figured that’s just because the Prophet didn’t go out on dates since it wasn’t the custom hundreds of years ago.

    I’m enjoying your comments. 🙂

  11. I like this topic and it is a great question.

    The chastity thing has taken a major beating in the West in the last 30 years or so. when I was growing up “good girls” didn’t do any of that kind of stuff and if they did they were talked about and branded similar to the Middle East today. As weird as it sounds I think it is a multitude of things starting with $$$$$. Most of the TV options that are offered are HORRIBLE. They have “reality” tv now…it is all the rage because it is low cost to make and has a very high profit margin…therefore it is pushed heavily. And with reality tv comes lots of dirt/nastiness and who doesn’t like to vicariously spy on your neighbor and feel morally superior to them and their particular brand of nastiness?…I grew up on a diet of the Brady Bunch, The Waltons, Little House on the Prairie, and a variety of other shows that in the space of 30 to 60 minutes presented a variety of moral dilemmas, challenging the main characters to either take the easy way out and choose the immoral option or dig deep and though it might hurt take the moral option. These sort of teaching shows that a generation or two grew up with are all but gone replaced with literally mindless garbage that shows the worst in people while reaping huge profits for the networks.

    Also there is a push to sexualize girls young…(we see the same thing in KSA with girls barely in puberty locked under an abaya…it simply takes a different form in the West) Manufacturers try to sell a slew of related products to the stupid public who doesn’t think beyond the ends of their noses of how it might affect their daughters and sons…it has caused girls to think of themselves in a far more mature manner than they are ready for and caused young immpressionable boys to view girls in a hypersexualized mode IMO. As a parent it made me so damn angry that all for a buck they will sell this “image” to girls of how they “should” be and god forbid you aren’t…you’re not cool enough. Maybe I lived under a rock but I don’t remember the extreme relentless pressure to try to act 16 when I was 10 or 11. I was still playing with dolls.

    Another thing is that I don’t think the West is any less moral necessarily than KSA it is just that Westerners have an obsession (Americans in particular ) of airing their dirty laundry in public. that is then broadcast all over the world via talk shows and reality tv and we look like we are jumping on each other every chance we get. The world never gets a chance to see normal,boring average Americans who aren’t participating in the steamy,slimy things people see on TV. It’s funny but people say that the west is immoral because of the movies we make. I always looked at it the opposite…we make some amazing movies and we also make some raunchy ones too and they sell. I always figured they sold so well PRECISELY because it is entertainment and not a reflection of what the average person lives in their daily lives…they want escapism and something different…that is why the movies are so darn popular! If it was a repeat of everyday life why the heck would any one go to see it when they can live it…like in the 30’s during the Depression and the 40’s during the war movies were hugely popular because it was an escape from the hum drum of daily life.

    I think, girls, if given the option and not feeling the pressure to conform and be “cool” would not be sexually active so young…(the average age of first intercourse is 17 years). They think in many ways they “have to” when in fact so many really don’t want to. And parents don’t talk about it because I think they are too embarrassed…stats show that presents who put the discussion on the table and talk about it have girls who are much stronger and can resist the pressure. there is a segment of the American population that is “broken”for lack of a better word. they have babies out of wedlock and at a young age…there are many dynamics for that one of which is education and poverty which have little to do with morality…but that is another post I think.

  12. Any people who have very little to feel good about find pacifying solace in belittling others. Muslims depend on non-Muslims for everything, from needles to planes. The very same Muslim teachers, mosque goers, businesspeople, clerics and the men who rule in the name of religion and god spend their happy days not in Mecca, but in Monaco, Paris, London, Madrid, Romania, San Francisco, the Christian section of Beirut and Tel Aviv. Life goes on and so as glaring contradictions and admissible hypocrisy.

  13. Suzanne. No, it is not OK to watch immoral shows. Bad Bad girl!

    On a more serious note we must understand that much of this “morality” thing is really all about controlling a woman’s body so that it is available to only certain men. Even the good doctor recognizes that the idea of the virgin girl is an integral part of the Muslim culture. Strangely, I don’t remember anything in the Quran that exempted men from that same standard. When it comes to tail, the average Muslim male will tell Allah to take a hike. From what I hear, Muslim men in the West are not shy about enjoying the pleasures of the flesh. Note also that Islamic societies are among the biggest consumers of porn as reported by Google Analytics.

    Sexual morals, in Islam, are the burden of women. What Muslims call “morality” therefore is a big list of restrictions for women and a bunch of silly rituals that have nothing to do with morality or virtue.

    Dr H. I think you are too restrictive in outlook. Yes, there are numerous ‘Islamic’ societies from east to west, but I believe I can generalize as to Islamic teachings under the concept of Ummah and a shared theology (kindof). I think there are common characteristics among those societies, in the form of beliefs, customs and attitudes based upon Islam, that often transcend their diverse national, ethic and/or racial characteristics so that it becomes a “Muslim” issue rather than an Iranian, Turkish, Indonesian or Arabian issue.

    So you didn’t like my idea for a World Cup of Immorality, with different players / athletes competing in different modes of sin and vice. Ok, fine, but why oh why am I always the only one here to stand up for vice and sin? It is not like the rest of you are shining examples to semi-divine uprightness and I am the only evil guy in town. Actually the Superbowl of sin idea was only a step towards the necessary defining of what is vice, sin, evil, or immorality, of even if they are all the same. I bet we can’t agree on this, or even what is evil, so there can be no proper dialogue.

    H, you might say that eating pork is a sin, or wrong, or what ever. I might say that not being able to express a negative attitude about your prophet is evil and wrong. So where does that leave us? In silence with no bacon!

    Suzanne. You were talking about the Oprah show, weren’t you?

  14. I’m very happy to have met teenagers here in North Carolina who take great pride in remaining chaste for marriage. Living in part of the US “Bible belt” I think I see more Americans who live with high morals, values and ethics. It’s nice as it reminds me of the earlier days of my childhood and the way I was brought up. I dislike seeing youth who are determined to grow up too early and impatient “to get out and live.”

  15. Carol, I was part of that Bible Belt morality that you see in the Carolinas for a couple of years. As I look back I must say that the restrictions at the time seemed to much for me, beyond logic and reason. Sex was for married adults of different genders but same race. Even before then I was raised in a very fundamentalist home – no TV, no dancing, wild music, or movies. Looking back 50 years, I can say it really didn’t hurt me much even if I wished at times to be free. I had a good childhood and loving parents. I had fun, clean fun. I broke a few rules yes, but that was OK and Dad’s belt really never botherted me as much as the lectures.

    This “get out and live thing” is overrated. There is a time and place for everything, and an adult attitude and behavior should not be forced upon a child. Sex is really serious business (mostly) and the West, particularly America, has done great harm to itself and to its children wby pretending that family and fidelity are not important. The liberals will make all of us pay for this stupidity.

    Thank you for your wise words

  16. We tend to see (and judge) in others that which we neglect to recognize in ourselves.

  17. The Bible Belt “talks the talk’ but doesn’t “walk the walk” like so many other fundie types. Hypocracy is always so unattractive. So it would be nice if this stayed on topic and didn’t descend into liberal bashing. I grew up with family values in Los Angeles as did many,many others.

    “The Bible Belt, which is supposedly the bedrock of Christian values, has the highest rate of cohabitation in the U.S.”-http://www.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147498718

    There are “surgical again” virgins. Most clients being from the Gulf States. There are abandoned babies in Saudi orphanages. Again, appearance over reality.

  18. I have never understood how sex got to be the basis for which immorality is judged by. There are so many other abhorrent behaviors one can get up to that have nothing to do with sex…and makes you an immoral person but we tend to judge people less on that and more on how many bed partners they had.

    What is the difference if you go to your grave having only ever had sex with one person (presumably your spouse) or having had sex with a hundred people? How does the one make you a better person and the other make you a bad person?

    Why do we put so much emphasis on sex? Is there truly nothing else so deserving of our time?

  19. Very good point Coolred. As long as it is sex between consenting adults- I agree there are issues that deal with morality far more. I think it is much worse to oppress half the population (female) much more IMMORAL to do so. It is also immoral to lie to ones spouse about another wife, it is immoral for a society of means to give their children a sub-standard education of religious indoctrination. All those things are far more IMMORAL that sex between consenting adults.

  20. The media are not going to give a representation of everyday life where people are good. That doesn’t sell. In France, many people have an image of the USA as skyscrapers and all they eat is hamburgers.

    Humanity is diverse and details vary, but on the inside, we are all called to be good by our Creator. He even made the effort to speak directly to a man in Arès, France (through Jesus as a messenger in 1974 and as a voice from a stick of light in 1977) but you probably have not heard about that in the media. The message reminds us that we still have not accomplished the basic “love one another”, calls us to be freely good, to go beyond morals and religion.

    If we were to accomplish His Word, whether it be from the Bible, the Qur’an or The Revelation of Arès, we would change the world.

  21. Agree with coolred and Sandy.

  22. This is the same as asking, why is every Muslim considered a terrorist in the west?

    The answer is obvious! Media!!!

    Look at the western media. You will have your answer! If there is anyone to blame for everyone in the west perceived of being immoral, it is the western media themselves.

    The WRONG perception you are complaining about in your post, isnt this exactly what movies have been showing westerners to be? Who is responsible for making ‘BAD’ good?

    Most ppl of any particular culture will NEVER be able to travel to other countries and see the truth themselves. They cannot be blamed for having an incorrect perception.

    Another imp point to note is that the same western media is responsible for both, showing every westerner as morally corrupt and every eastener as a religious extremist.

    Lastly, you have mentioned your family as an example. I am sure you and your family is perfectly moral and respectful, but that cannot be considered a yardstick to measure the entire west in general. You have to build a stronger case than that!

  23. I have to say that here in the middle of America Iowa we don’t live life like the Jersey Shore either(God Forbid btw I really hate the whole fake reality tv stuff). Mormons, like a lot of other Christian sects, emphasize chastity for BOTH sexes until marriage. Unlike the hypocritical Middle East where the burden of chastity is ONLY on the female and the male gets a wink wink nod nod good old boy pass on the chastity rule. I find it disgusting that a female has so much to lose (including possibly her life) because of a small piece of skin between her thighs, as if her life or being isn’t more than that.

    I agree with Abu in Saudi and much of the Eastern world appearances trumps substance. In the West substance trumps appearances. This is a part of the freedom of living in the West. Another thing I notice is a distinct lack of trust people have in Saudi culture. Take dating for example. Dr. Nassar stated that no Saudi father would allow dating whereas that is the norm in the West. The biggest reason I see is lack of trust. In the West many young girls have to earn the trust of a parent before being allowed to date. The parent first has to trust that their child is mature enough to handle dating then they have to trust that their child enough to know that the moral teachings they have instilled in the child is good enough to help that child get thru the rite of passage dating is. Dating is NOT about sex. Dating is about getting to know someone in hopes of a future relationship together. I will never understand how someone expects strangers to get married together and have a good married life where fidelity and love rule. Then again I guess that isn’t really the goal in a Saudi marriage? The West for the most part has stopped thinking that women are property a long time ago. We don’t marry our women off to men in exchange for money/status/etc. Women here are prized not for the piece of skin between their thighs but as equals to men wherein they have the intelligence and capabilities to achieve something higher than just being a broad mare.

    I don’t think the perception that Muslims are terrorist are JUST the fault of the Western media. There are some pretty evil Muslims (who granted have chosen to emphasize or believe parts of Islam others don’t) who have been doing and are still doing terrorist activities.

  24. I believe the enforced segregation also skewers views and perceptions greatly and in the case of young men (and probably young women too) further entice interest in the opposite sex. Whereas in the US when you grow up in an open society you don’t think twice about seeing both sexes openly and mixing. A physical relationship is not the focus of attention in spite of what the dang media likes to portray!

  25. The west proposes a different life style, something our conservative traditions would NEVER approve of. Like some people have already mentioned dating is an example among many that we islamicaly and culturaly despise. Seeing people practise it, advocate the right for a man and woman to live as ‘loosely’ as they wish is what makes us depict the west as a perfect example of immorality! What I am trying to say is, it depends on the values and traditions your ‘self’ has absorbed since being young, when something negates these values and dares to challenge them we start thinking negatively of the source of the challenge. I have met a few examples who are as conservative as my own saudi ppl, so personally I dont generalize.

    Peace.

  26. Carol…

    I think you hit the nail on the head. It is like a diet…the thing that you never thought twice about when it was available to you is now screaming your name once it is off limits. Kids too…tell a kid they can’t do something and that is the thing they want to do. It is too enticing once it is “forbidden”.

  27. It has alot to do with how they are raised.

    Educated arabs understand their is infact no difference in being a good christian or a good muslim… they understand that ALL americans don’t drink and that ALL westerners don’t do drugs…unfortunately there are many out there who have been brought up with no manners, no respect for other cultures and one sided views.

  28. @A Saudi Woman,
    Most westerners (including Muslims) and many non-Saudi Muslims understand that dating does not equate with sex, and that it is far more moral than men controlling what an adult woman does.

    And I think any westerner that has spent time in Saudi Arabia realizes they are far more obsessed with sex than westerners. And they are often trying to pursue it with people they haven’t even dated! They randomly call people trying to find hook-ups, they wait outside schools, they roam malls trying to find someone, chase people in cars and they toss phone numbers at people. How moral is all that? Yet it is culturally what they do. I find it far more “Islamic” to go on a proper date and get to know someone, to see if they are a suitable life partner, than to just chase strangers around hoping to score like Saudi culture mandates.

  29. A saudi woman…

    I don’t agree because often when the same people come to the west they imbibe in the “lifestyle”. Also dating isn’t synonymous with sex…there are many forms…like group dating where a bunch of girls and boys might go out to a movie or a play or a church event or bowling etc. Or in the case of friends of mine who are huge football fans they take their kids with them (and their teenage son and his girlfriend) so it is pretty supervised. I am not sure why the idea of dating is equated immediately with sex. Many, many times before I got married I went out for a bite to eat with a man and a polite thank you was all he got at the end of the night. It doesn’t have to be a straight line to hell and debauchery.

    My daughter goes to an all girls school…in the upper grades there was a dance put on by the school heavily supervised by parents…a Muslim student wanted to go to the dance with her girlfriends and her parents refused…she was disappointed because if ever there was a chance to mix in a protected environment this was it. Boys from a local all boys school were invited and there was a very strict policy about dancing and so forth. It really was more like a big mixer no more or less than when kids are in class together. Anyway, as far as I know her classmates were supportive of her parents decision and understood that it was not allowed. But even though I understood completely I felt it was too bad for this girl because there are few opportunities that afford the chance to mix under the very watchful eyes of parents. It would have been a totally innocent night for her and she would have had a chance to “stretch” in a very protected environment. But I also understood where her parents were coming from…but it wasn’t dating per se…more like standing around talking really.

  30. I’m reading a lot about “good girls” in the West not being sexually actitive before marriage, and I think that’s a huge judgement.

    Why can’t a girl be sexually actitive if she’s safe and healthy, reguardless of marriage status if that is her choice?

    Yeah, I agree, that is a reason why Saudis see us as immoral, but I wouldn’t take my virginity back if it was handed back to me with a million dollars and I still consider myself a “good girl”.

    I think a “bad girl” should be charaterized as someone addicted to drugs, steals, hurts other people, cheats, lies…ect.

    Not over if a piece of skin is intact or not. If that were the case, then I know a lot of “good girls” that do a lot of bad things.

  31. Our perceptions of others is interesting…while Saudis make look across the pond and see us as immoral because we engage in sex outside of marriage (generally speaking) we look back at them and see oppression and abuse of women/ foreigners, and of Islam (generally speaking) and each side sees the other as morally corrupt…then it boils down to who is more morally corrupt than the other.

    My personal opinion about being corrupt means…when you actively engage in an action that harms, oppresses, or in anyway limits the rights and freedoms of another human being…then you are morally corrupt. Having sex outside of marriage is not an issue, unless one of you are married to someone else, one of you is underage and the other is taking advantage of that, one of you is forcing sex on the other etc etc having sex is morally corrupt when someone is being abused or hurt by it, which includes unsuspecting spouses. Other than that…how can sex itself be morally corrupting simply because the two people arent married? I just dont get that.

    When your culture actively oppresses and hurts half the population on a continued basis,…by curtailing their rights and forcing a stunted way of life on them…but then prettying it up with talk of “protection”, “honour”, and “modesty”, how can that be less corrupting then people having sex outside of marriage? or having sex at all.

    Sex, for the most part, is an affirmation of love between two people (again when it isnt or when someone is being hurt then its corrupting)….oppression is an affirmation of hate.

    Which one is the more morally corrupt? Well I guess it would depend on whether you are the woman engaging in sex with someone you love (married or not) or the woman having her freedoms compromised and her life regulated by the men she is surrounded by with no thought to what she thinks or how she feels.

    My opinion anyhow.

    btw generally speaking…its the men in our lives who get to determine what constitutes oppression, abuse, corruption, protection etc…meanwhile they are the ones setting the examples in the first place…generally speaking.

  32. The problem is “A Saudi Woman” is that everything that happens here in the West ALSO HAPPENS in Saudi.

    The difference it is open here. In Saudi it is lied about, covered up and ignored. My wife is Saudi, I know many Saudis, young and old that either still live in the country or used to. EVERYTHING that you can complain about here in the West also happens in Saudi.

    The unnatural practices in Saudi actually cause some things seen as immoral to happen MORE in Saudi. The obvious example would be the rampant lesbianism amoungst young Saudi females. My sister in law is a professor in a all women’s university in Jeddah. She used to teach here in the US and was astounded at the level of homosexual activity amoungst the young teens and early 20s aged women she see in Jeddah.

    Sometimes it is open and flaggarnt, others have made it into a virtual art form my wearing certain bits of clothing, certain colours, and worn in certain ways, to let other girls know they are homosexual. She said it is at a level FAR in excess of what she saw in the USA.

    That is because of the unnature social practices in Saudi. My father in law worked for the Saudi military and government his entire life but he made my wife SWEAR that his grandson would never join the Saudi military!

    Why? Because the rape of new young male soldiers is common place in the Saudi military. He saw it himself and would not subject his own flesh and blood to this horror. Why does this happen in Saudi when it is almost unknown in the US? It is again because of unnatural social practices and then the inablility of the victims to say anything because lack of legal recourse, and because of the fact that a rape of a man would basically end his life in Saudi society.

    Deny all you want, but you only do your country and your people a disservice! When you deny and point fingers it means that things are only going to get worse.

  33. @Coolred,

    Never mind the fact that a good chunk of Saudis have sex outside of marriage themselves. What they see as “immoral” about the US and the West are the VERY SAME things they do, but they just cover it up.

    Unmarried women getting “fixes” to be seen as a virgin again is one of the hottest plastic surgeries in the Middle East. But this just hides the larger issue. Many women there are sexual active, just in ways that are no provable. They long ago figured out that they can get up to almost anything and not get caught. The only ONE thing that was sacred was the blood on the wedding night. Now with plastic surgery, that has been fixed too.

    Make no mistake about it, men and women in Saudi are just as “dirty” as the American people, they just cover it up better. If you want to call these acts immoral then it means that Americans are immoral, but Saudis are both immoral and hypocrites.

  34. Why is there a perception in Saudi that dating automatically equates to sex? Like Oby many of my friends grew up in religious homes where dating was supervised. The first step was group dating (usually 14 and up) then double dating (16 and up). We also had supervised formal dances where couples had to watch their manners and any “sexy” dancing was out. We even had a rule that couples had to be so many inches apart for slow dancing. I personally didn’t start dating one on one until I was in college. By then I was considered an adult and able to make my own choices in life. Did I make mistakes you bet. However my family still loves me and no one thinks I’m used good. I have never been raised with the idea that just because I lost my virginity I am worthless. Like many here I am an adult woman quite capable of taking care of myself. I contribute to society, I work, and manage my life all without the need of a man to “protect” me.

    I’m confused though as to why this would be Islamically repugnant. Gender segregation is a cultural thing and not practiced by a large majority of Muslims. I can see where perhaps one on one dating would be forbidden for fear of bidah? but something like what Oby described is pretty harmless and no different from community gatherings people have where people are allowed to get to know one another. Don’t Muslims have parties or get togethers at the mosque?

    I really really take offense to the idea that the West is one giant cesspool of immorality. Theres a big reason why virginity reconstruction is big business for Muslim girls (sorry but I’ve never heard of a non Muslim women running out to get these). That to me is immoral. You are basically lying to your future spouse. But I guess the idea is what they don’t know wont hurt them? I can’t even imagine marrying someone with that big of a lie between us. Then again marrying a stranger is pretty abhorant to me too.

    I’ve been thinking a lot lately to how much the modern world owes to the pioneers of science and technology. Think about it, without what the West invented, researched, etc Saudi would still be a dirt poor backwards country(and so would a lot of other countries). No cars, no modern medicine, not a lot of food (how much of Saudis food has to be imported?), etc. Think about what you do in a given day and where that comes from. Today I drove (thank you Henry Ford) to see a medical doctor(thank you all the science pioneers), picked up antibiotics (thank you again science pioneers), and went to the Asian market where I purchased items shipped half way across the world. Now I’m home typing on a computer to people scatter all over the world (thank you technology pioneers). All of that would not have been available to me a hundred years ago.

  35. @ Coolred

    I agree, a lot of my unmarried Saudi girl friends use the “back door” instead of the “front door” so they are physically still a virgin, but they still are sexually actitive. And we for sure know the men are sexually actitive.

    there’s even a ring you can place instead (that’s about $15 from Lebanon) that causes bleeding so it would seem as if the girl was a virgin.

    The entire value of virginity thing is completely unfair. And in the Koran, doesn’t the man have to be a virgin too in order to marry a virgin????

  36. @Oni,

    “Dating” if that is the proper word, does happen in the Muslim world. It is usually that the male and female go out with older members of the family. It gives them the chance to get to know each other without other pressures being involved. The extreme angle in Saudi is just that, and we see how well it works there.

    As to lying to the future spouse, that is common even without the virginity operations. It is common practice in the Gulf for women to have sex, just in places that wont mean no blood on the wedding night. It is known, so the fact that a woman is a virgin doesnt mean she is “clean”. Besides, how many of the same men demanding virgins came are coming to their wedding bed a virgin?

    @Confused,

    I guess it said it alittle more open than I did. It is a well known “secret”.

  37. @ Abu Sinan

    You rock! Totally agree with you!

  38. I understand the virginity issue. Men want to make sure they are the father of their children. It’s been this way for a long, long time. I don’t know if the laws have changed in France but my sister divorced in Canada. Her ‘to be’ second husband was working in France and they wanted to marry there. The law in France was at that time was that a wedding couldn’t take place until 9 months after a divorce to ensure that there were no children coming from the first husband.

    Having said that there probably is more pre-marital sex in ‘the western world’ but it’s certainly not the norm. I don’t think it’s a bad thing for a couple who plan to marry to have sex because it’s just as important to be compatible sexually as it is emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. Doesn’t mean it has to happen or that it does happen.

    I observe young and old men around me these days as they walk among girls dressed in a sexy fashion or with short skirts and low cut tops, etc. The men don’t even seem to see them. Why??? Because they get used to it. They are not walking around in a perpetual state of arousal. Not at all. They are not wanting to jump every female they see because they are used to it. KSA and other Muslim countries sexualizes women way more than the rest of the world and that causes major problems that should be apparent to all.

    I was raised very morally, my children were raised in the same fashion as were most of my friends and associates. Women learn to respect their bodies and to think of them as something more than sexual baby vessels put on earth to serve a man. I was a virgin for my first marriage and that was not uncommon. Daily life routines were about the same as they are in KSA except when I became a teen I could entertain both male and female friends in my house under my parent’s supervision and when I could handle that and was about 16 I could go out on dates with young men approved by my dad and as long as I was home at a decent hour. I had earned my parents trust and they knew I would behave. I was also terrified of having a baby out of wedlock so wouldn’t even consider ‘going all the way’ because of that. The pill changed things of course but morality doesn’t change. My sons were raised in the same fashion as I was. They were taught to respect women (and girls) and they certainly have done so.

    About naughty movies … I’ve watched one or two and let me tell you that after the first 5 minutes or so they become boring. Same with WWC’s (women without covers). They are not a novelty when you see them all the time.

  39. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  40. @Abu and confused

    Ah… isn’t the back door really really forbidden by Islam?

  41. From my perspective, as a modern north european protestant, basically what characterize a society is how people treat each other, and how the society’s institutions work, and treat the citizens .
    And I’m sorry as far as I can judge a strictly muslim society doesn’t fare much better, than a modern north european society.
    A typically muslim view is to compare an ideal muslim society with the empirical realities of the west. And it’s very easy because of open nature of western societies, you have papers, sociological research an so on.
    If you put the same massive critical eye on muslim societies, what will then be found ?

  42. OK…there must be a MAJOR generation gap here. Who the hell is KimK?

    But Kitty2010 parents need to counteract that with some common sense talk and a few “NO’s”…my daughter is not allowed to watch any trashy thing she hears about. It is my job as a parent to teach her and help guide her decisions and set a moral example for her…once she is an adult she can make her own decisions but I am hoping that the foundation I laid for her in the young tender years will be a source of strength for her. She can’t stop the smut out there but she can chose what she allows into her world.

  43. @OnigiriFB,

    Yeah, but it’s better then facing your family when you’re not a virgin.

    I know two girls that used the vaginal ring that causes blood when you have sex when they got married. They both said it worked. So I dunno.

    Being a virgin or not doesn’t make you a bad person or not, and everyone is drivin’ by sexual desire, so OF COURSE they will find a way to have sex.

    Back door or not.

    I mean, if you find them on Facebook, you’ll see, it’s like an underground sexual revolution there.

  44. And another thing, the girls I know are in their early 20s, and I think Western women see Saudi women as perfect muslims that never do anything wrong, but they are exactly like how we are, fashion obbessed, boy crazy, go out dancing kind of girls, then, just like Western girls, there are the ones that never go out, who study all the time, stay virgin till they get married, ect.

    But to think all Saudi women are head deep in obeying their “masters” is far from the truth. They are exactly like American girls at the same age. (though I’d have to say, Saudi women usually dress better, LOL)

    And those girls can party with the best of us. I know. I always tell my friends that they don’t know how to have a good time until they’ve “partied like a Saudi”.

    And of course the boys can too, but yeah, the age group from 15-25, they remind a lot of what it must have been like in 1969.

    But they are excellent at keeping it hush hush.

  45. American Bedu,
    I have to say this is one of your best posts – perhaps the best!
    The way Saudis see the West is portrayed through the Western media…Ironically, the way Americans see Saudis is also portrayed through the media…and the winner, ladies and gentlemen are the media emperors who fill their pockets with our money while we are arguing!

    Before I continue this discussion, I just want to emphasize that any moderate and highly-educated Muslim knows that Saudi Arabia doesn’t represent Islam, nor do most so-called Islamic countries.

    And let me trace things back to history when Islam emerged. Islam didn’t “create” values and morals…Islam approved of many morals that already existed in the Arabian Peninsula and that were practiced by Christians ….Islam also refined and re-organized some values, and rejected some immoral behaviors like adultery and drinking (which were also prohibited in Christianity) ….
    Morals are part of human beings’ nature..and if there were no religions at all, people would make rules (which are more or less a form of morals).

    All the ancient empires and civilizations of the world thrived when they practiced certain moral like honesty, integrity, chastity…etc…and those civilizations ended when immorality prevailed.

    Islam does not look at people as inferiors, but some Saudis do…and there is a HUGE difference between Saudis and Islam…Saudi Arabia has the “form” and “frame” of Islam but it doesn’t have its heart and soul 😦

    The thing is we are all humans, who make mistakes…we regret doing some mistakes…we repent sometimes…we learn from our mistakes…we enjoy our mistakes..and sometimes we never repent….At the end of the day, it is up to Allah to decide to forgive us or not….We are human beings, who come in VERY different and varied shapes and types…each one of us has his/her own circumstances… Allah never judges us all the same way…and in turn, we do not have the right to judge each other or judge another culture… We might disagree on certain behaviors or dislike them, but that is only part of life…and it is all very natural …

    I personally have known a few Americans who refuse to own a TV because they think it corrupts their kids…I have known other Americans who would do any thing to get money….Saudis are the same…they come in all forms and kinds; good and bad….Islam has only the standards high…and other standards have been set moderately …we have the option between having “Islam” (submission to Allah and believing in His oneness), “Eman” (faith in what Allah has set for us), and “Ehsan” (doing things perfectly for the sake of Allah only whether people see us or not)…

    Thank you, Carol, for such a thought-provoking post!

  46. Well, if you define morality as sexual purity (of women only), then certainly, the West lags behind most Muslim-majority countries. Why is sexual purity of women so important? The reasons are myriad: that a man’s and family’s reputation in the region is determined by sexual behavior of women under their control, that these societies are collectivist rather than individualist, etc. In the West, these factors are unimportant: sexual behavior of daughters and sisters does not affect the reputation or business/social prospects of fathers and brothers in the slightest.

    Yet morality is too large of a concept to be defined by sexual purity. What makes a moral society? When you look at other aspects of it, the results of this competition become quite muddled, to say the least. Personal honesty and integrity? Acceptance of lies by society? Good governance? Accountability of elected officials? Acceptance of bribery? Availability of due process in courts and public institutions? Acceptance of violence as conflict resolution strategy? Food for thought for you.

  47. Saudi Arabia: Why is the West Viewed as so Immoral?
    This is just your personal impression which is not based on any reliable study. So, from an academic point of view, your claim is in need of supporting academic evidences such as research.

    Today, I was really shocked by study’s findings published in Alrabia TV channel. This study states that “an estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year”

    I checked this study and found also the following results:

    a. Nearly 9% of the American general population suffers from all forms of phobias.

    b- 1 in every 5 adolescents has a diagnosable psychological disorder which include minor depression, drug-dependence, Attention Deficit Disorder, Anorexia Bulimia, Hypochondriasis, Gender Identity Disorders and Eating Disorders, and more aggravated disorders.

    c- Depression � One in every eighth individuals have clinical depression. One in every five young people has emotional problems and 30% of all adolescents who were diagnosed for emotional problems are depressed.

    d- Suicide � For ages 15 to 24, this is the leading cause of death. There are at least 500, 000 individuals who take their own lives yearly.

    Can I ask here, why Americans suffer from depression, phobia, and suicide? Maybe because there is no “Mahram system” protects young people from evils who use them for commercial purposes that could cause them psychological problems like depression, phobia and commiting suicide in long term?!

    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml

    http://healthyhuman.net/healthy-mind/permalink.php?article=mental-health-statistics.txt.

  48. @confused

    Good point. I guess if the choice was be killed by my family or having reconstruction virginity surgery I’d be getting the surgery. Funny how debauched Saudi thinks of the West when in reality they are doing on the down low. Heh, at least the West is honest about its faults.

    Do you perhaps hang out with the upper class Saudis? Upper class society in Thailand was kind of like that. Outside it was all prim and proper good girls who all went to private Catholic schools. Dig deeper and we partied like everyone else. One of my biggest pet peeves was that it was all about appearance, who had the most money or came from so and so family etc. Of course since Thailand also has the reputation of all Thai women are whores it was even more important for the girls from good families to never behave in public as anything less then the perfect Thai lady. My family tried really really hard to make me in one but I was too much of an American. Of course, when I got back to the States I was too prim and proper. Go figure.

    @NN

    The Saudi idea of morality always seems to be sexually related. Have you seen the latest news about the religious police beating up the husband of a niquabi because she had “seductive” eyes. My thought was why wasn’t he “lowering his gaze”? What the heck was he doing staring at someone else’s wife?

  49. Just call me old fashioned but I think one’s virginity is one of the most precious gifts which a couple can give to one another. Therefore it should be protected until the wedding night when that marital bond is solidified. Even if a person had divorced that is still not a carte blanche reason to forget about staying chaste. I’m not a prude and understand about natural desires and feelings but that does not equate to justifying or giving in to promiscuity. This is my own opinion and view and I’ll just respectfully agree to disagree with others who do not share my view.

    I also wanted to comment on I believe our Dr’s comment about conformity in Saudi. I had written an earlier article with my observations on the sea of black and white.

  50. @OnigirlFB

    Yeah I hang out around the upper middle class. (or so it seems, it’s hard to tell when they all live off of Daddy’s money) The guy I’m engaged to is super honest about how everyone is and how he is with me, so that’s how I got into a lot of random circles and learned a lot. And I took the time to learn arabic and not tell anyone, so that allowed me in on a few things too. I use to be friends with a minor royal, but he was so mean to people and I noticed a lot of “paid” women so I left that scene real quick like. You’re 100% right, it is all about appearnce.

    I use to live next door to a Saudi girl that was going to school with me, and while she was engaged, she was also engaged with other men, and her and her girl friends use to get a kick out of showing me things (what a strip club was, what lotions you can eat, the little ring I wrote about, the fact I didn’t know most of the designer labels, they took me under their wing pretty much…) They thought it was so funny that I was American and completely stupid about sex while they knew everything. But they were always super super nice. I have yet to meet a mean Saudi woman. And I have yet to meet a submission Saudi woman. They are pretty head strong, smart girls. But yeah, they keep very very well hidden. And I totally understand that, my dad is from the middle east and I have to hide everything from him, but I can tell my mom anything (she’s American).

    In fact the first time I ever drank, EVER or went to a club ever was with a group of Saudi women. I even used one of their passports as my id because I wasn’t 21 yet, lol…I was so stupid back then.

    But yeah, it’s a peacock show for sure.

  51. I think that when it comes to ethics and morals, it has more to do with how a person was raised and their personal experiences. This could be influenced by culture and religion, but there are immoral and moral people in every society. Additionally, I do not think that just because one has sex outside of a contractual marriage that sex is wrong. Also, something I have wondered is if two grown adults love each other and have promised each other to stay together and help each other through life before God but are not legally married, is it wrong for the couple to have sex with each other? I would imagine that such a couple may be more committed to each other than quite a few couples that are legally married.

    However, maybe I’m strange but I am also of the opinion that if the sex isn’t good, it can be overcome through education and practice, so I do not see why it is necessary to be sure of the sexual compatibility before marriage. If the attraction is there (mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, etc.), I think that with the proper education, there should not be any troubles in this department. However, making sure of the attraction and compatibility in other areas of life, such as life goals and desired lifestyle, is not something that is as easily changed. What people want out of life is probably not going to change that much in a short period of time, so it is better to find someone with similar goals and values as yourself.

    Back to the original topic, though, I would agree that media has a lot to do with why the West is viewed as being more immoral. I think the West is just more open about these things and doesn’t feel the need to hide them, especially in cultures where drinking wine/beer is part of the culinary experience (not necessarily getting drunk, but drinking a glass of wine/beer with dinner, for example) and sex outside of marriage is not seen as much of a cultural taboo as other places.

    Among some groups of people, though, (throughout the world), getting drunk, having sex, etc. is seen as what one is “supposed” to do when one is a young adult in order to “have a good time”. I don’t understand it, but I have watched people from around the world, including Saudis, feel the need to get drunk in order to have a good time. I was told that it is because you can act like a fool and know that the next day life goes on anyways, or something like this? I simply prefer to act “drunk” while being sober when I feel like acting silly.

  52. @StrangeOne

    I agree with you on the drunk thing and the love and sex thing. It’s not fun at all to not have control, it’s really annoying, and people say and do things that can be really awful under the influence. Totally not worth it, at all.

  53. Carol,

    Obviously, this is a touchy subject here. : )

    My brother was just trying to tell me how it really is in Saudi Arabia even though he has never lived there and has only ever met a handful of people from there. Unfortunately, his opinion is based on what he has seen and heard on the news, and no matter what I tell him, I can’t change his mind even though I live there!

  54. Strange One said: “Also, something I have wondered is if two grown adults love each other and have promised each other to stay together and help each other through life before God but are not legally married, is it wrong for the couple to have sex with each other? I would imagine that such a couple may be more committed to each other than quite a few couples that are legally married.”

    My question is if a couple is committed to each other as you described then what would prevent them from marriage and make the relationship legal?

    Riding the Wave – yes; it is also one of my pet peeves to have folks who have never stepped foot in the Kingdom speak as if they’ve lived there! Like you, a lot of folks I’ve encountered with strong opinions of Saudi without having been there will rely on media reports mostly. I guess that is also similar in turn of a number of Saudis who have never set foot in the US but also have a strong view point.

  55. مها نور إلهي

    Quotes: “Islam does not look at people as inferiors” and “Islam has only the standards high” and so on.

    You need to get off your high horse. You also need to understand that people that read this blog might actually have read the Quran and ahadith and maybe a newspaper now and then. This idea that “Islam is perfect, it is just some Muslims that get it wrong” doesn’t fly well at all with me. Are you saying that the Quran doesn’t have thousands of verses telling Muslims how evil, treacherous and ignorant we infidels are? Do you really think that those verses about non-Muslims being lower than or like animals mean nothing and have no effect? As for high standards, what exactly are you refering to? Telling Muslims to fight non-Muslims until they submit, convert or die?

    You even say that “most so-called Islamic countries” don’t represent Islam. So exactly where is Islam actually practiced as it should be? I really hope you don’t pick a date about 1400 years ago because, if you do, you must answer for the actions and events at that time. You must be prepared to justify things that you would condemn if done by others at other times.

    As Niels pointed out, Muslims are always ready to compare the inexistant ideal Muslim society to the often dark reality of the West, or worse yet, they want us to believe that the rule and society of the time time of their prophet is their ideal. I think I could knock that over without too much trouble.

    In the end, people are all pretty much the same, and it is not a nice story. The big difference is that some are more likely to blame others and make excuses.

    The human race sucks, and don’t you forget it!

    Yes, western life is often immoral, but you have a choice. You don’t have to jump into the cesspool. With Islam, You must either live a lie, or join the rest in the sewer.

  56. ” it is also one of my pet peeves to have folks who have never stepped foot in the Kingdom speak as if they’ve lived there…”

    considering who comments on this blog as if she is a fountain of information concerning all things Saudi…that is funny.

  57. مها نور إلهي
    *islam does not look at people as inferiors*, I wonder where you get that idea. Because that is not what I have read. When I read about women they are definitely inferior, that’s 50% of humanity to start with, if you do your five prayers you curse all Christians and Jews a minimum of 17 times a day, that’s a few million, all people not of the book are not even human (just ”breathing machines”) and their blood is allowed, witches have to be killed, gays have to be killed, apostates have to be killed, gays have to be killed, atheists have to be killed, etc. etc.
    All together that’s quite a large part of humanity Islam considers itself superior to.
    Actually, not just superior, the ”others” don’t even deserve to be alive!

    I think you are repeating what somebody told you, and it sounds very nice, but really, read for yourself!

  58. Practising the ‘forbidden’ behind closed doors means we believe it an immoral act, thus, it’s done in secret. Accordingly, those who ‘OPENLY’ talk about it and defend it are immoral people who advocate immorality. In my society you would not meet a person who approves or encourages premartial sex. So, using the argument that SOME people do practise it does not cotradict the fact that the majority stand against it with passion. A man and a woman relationship has a different dignified frame here, any society that represents alien ideas is automatically considered loose and corrupted.

    The discussion goes beyond the idea of dating to how you legalise prostitution, establish certain places to drink, and gamble, fight for homosexual rights, and de-ciriminalise the use of marijuana and other drugs, to mention a few.

    For a conservative atmosphere like ours, all of the above mentioed points result in negative feelings towards the west.

    This is my soceity’s perception o fthe issue.

    Personally, and once more, I have met wonderful western examples, so I avoid making general statements about the west.

  59. “In my society you would not meet a person who approves or encourages premartial sex. ”

    Maybe that should read…you would not meet a person that would admit to approving or encouraging premarital sex….considering its done there…than its being encouraged and approved of in some fashion or another….the very essence of an enforced segregated society almost begs for homosexual acts to take place…so on one hand your almost encouraging such behvaior by creating a situation where its easily engaged in and everybody knows it…but because you dont speak of it…and its behind closed doors…then thats ok?

    A majority do not stand against it because a majority of saudis know darn well it happens yet do nothing to stop it…by continuing to demand the status quo of a segregated society…your encouraging and approving of homosexual activities…albeit acting as if it doesnt happen.

    Im using homosexual activity as an example in this case and by YOU I mean any you.

  60. @Jay
    I think you went off topic a lot….and let me tell you something, when you read about Islam from translated sources or from newspapers, you have very little knowledge compared to a Muslim who has read about her religion from the source in Arabic…and I know more than you can imagine about the people who visit this site…

    I am not going to go off topic like you…and I am not going to turn this discussion into a defense of Islam because I am not a scholar….Islam doesn’t need me or any other person to defend it…the growing numbers of Muslims in Europe and America every year is enough to speak for Islam….the millions of Muslims who performed Hajj a few days ago is enough to show what Islam gives its people…

    We are not in a debate here about who’s religion is best….but when I say Islam doesn’t look at people as inferiors, it is true, because in Islam life of human beings is more precious than anything regardless of their religion….in war the situation is different and you know that..even war in Islam has certain rules that should be followed….and for sure you cannot claim that the Western culture never had any wars….the history is there and it shows how brutal the two World Wars were and ..let us not go back to history…why don’t visit Palestine and see for yourself how Muslims are brutally killed and how children and women are tortured…

    .If you have hatred against Islam, this is your problem…and I am not here to make you love my religion ….I am here to discuss the idea of “why the West is viewed as immoral”…so please stick to the topic and don’t quote me off context…

    Thank you

  61. @Aafke
    Obviously your sources are not reliable….
    what I said is not an “idea”..it is a life system set by Islam (the Islam that I know very well and living it in my small society)….treating women as inferiors is not Islamic at all..it is happening in the name of Islam, but it is not from Islam at all…and we don’t curse anyone when we pray….I wonder from where you got that!

    and I don’t know why every discussion in this blog turns into aggressive sarcasm and hatred of Islam! I’ve seen this a lot here…many people want to prove that Islam is the worse religion…oh come on guys! you are note living in a perfect life yourselves….if you were, you wouldn’t have such negative feelings toward anything or any religion…
    A lot of people who talk here seem as if they have come from a culture that had no wars, a culture that does not use women’s bodies to please men, and a culture that is problem free….
    Every culture in this world has its bad aspects and good ones….Carol is trying to clarify certain issues to both sides, but some people just want to turn every discussion here into a battle against Islam…well..here is the good news; no body is trying to talk to you into Islam….what I am trying to do and some others is trying to have a decent civilized discussion to have a better understanding of each other and to exchange experiences….

    And do you want to know who really looks at women as inferiors? Take a look at this sample….

    Again…every culture has its own bad and good aspects…it depends on the circle you surround yourself with and it depends on how “you” look at things….
    The video shows a type of Westerners that I know many people here will not like…the same thing happens with us Muslims…many Muslims do things that we don’t approve of and things that do not represent Islam….
    I know many American friends who would never even want to look at such a video….but this is an example that answers Carol’s post “Why is the West viewed as immoral?” And I am sure there are many examples that show Muslims as brutal and barbarian….again ..Ms Media wins…we _the real _ people (Muslims and non-Muslims) are going on with our lives that have nothing to do with what the media portrays…

    Thanks

  62. I’m in my late fifties, so I have experienced ( and of course been part of ) the fast development in the western countries especially since ww2 (but many of the elements was on the move before). I’ve grown up in a small village which was split between more orthodox christians ( which views on sex and so on isn’t that far away from some muslims today) and a more tolerant forgiven christianity. The result of this development has been as you know, that a moral superiority based on christianity and on rules lost the fight. But the consequence isn’t that there is no sense of morality, I will say on the contrary. But it’s based on how you treat people : you treat next of kind as you yourself want to be treated. It isn’t judgement by some book but the judgement in everyday life.
    Now regarding sex outside marriage. Of course living in a society where it’s universal, I can’t se the problem.
    But easily explain the reasons for it. In a society as mine where it’s a tradition that young people move away from home when they finish Gymnasium/High School, because of work or studies it’s very difficult to extort authority, so of course the attitudes get more relaxed. It has of course also something to do with the strong emphasis on individuality and a persons capability to take care for him-/herself.

  63. Our islamic teaching allows mixing with men within limits. You like many others, picture the society as if its seperated to X and Y and they never mingle or have a shared activity. Discouraging mixing with men does not mean we dont study with males, we dont go shopping with males, we dont walk the same street with males..etc.. you guys tend to exaggerate to give you responses an effect, sorry sir/madam.. your answer shows lack of understanding mixed with typical stereotypes.. guess you are affected by the media’s representation of saudi? since a lot of you assume not mix with men as ‘LOOSELY’ as some western societies propose, means we encourage homosexuality.

    Whatever i mentioned in my previous response didnt mean we are ok with it, that’s why its practised in secret..

    peace.

  64. You study with males? At which co-educational institute? Shop with males? Outside your family or only with family members? Go to a restaurant with a non-related male? It happens, but it is not allowed.

    Gender apartheid does not intend to promote homosexuality. It is just a natural outcome. That is part of why it is so wide spread in the kingdom.

  65. Saudi woman…

    “A man and a woman relationship has a different dignified frame here, any society that represents alien ideas is automatically considered loose and corrupted.”

    Maybe instead of judging, take an attitude of “it isn’t for us” rather than condemning the whole society. I gave an example that a Muslim girl couldn’t attend a dance and instead of being criticized or made fun of her classmates understood that there are “different strokes for different folks” and actually supported her parents position even though it was different from theirs…and she wasn’t shunned afterward…when a society makes room for differing opinions many can live among each other.

  66. #Medina

    ‘d- Suicide � For ages 15 to 24, this is the leading cause of death. There are at least 500, 000 individuals who take their own lives yearly’
    How can you write that 500.000 people take their life’s yearly in USA , isn’t you able to think for your self ?
    The real number is 34.000
    http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml

    I do really think this cross national competition in ills is futile. There is no doubt that the percentage of ‘modern’ ills is a lot lower in the arab world, than in the western
    world; That’s the burden of our societies. The ills of your society is your problem, not mine.

  67. I have known my whole life that television and Hollywood are fantasy and should not be taken as real. What the hell is wrong with some people that they just can’t grasp that fact?

    I recall how the boy actor in the movie ‘The Kite Runner’ could not live in his village anymore because of death threats because he portrayed a character that was raped so CLEARLY he must be gay and must DIE. Seriously!!?? What the hell is wrong with that society?

    I’m with Jay, don’t be so quick to blame the media or ignorance for one’s distaste for Islam. I was much more approving of Islam before reading the Quran/hadeeth and interacting with real, live, committed and strict followers of Islam.

    I am not a religious person (breathing machine?) but I think I am more moral than many religious people because I live by the Golden Rule which is I treat others as I would want to be treated myself. Who needs anything more than that really?

    Carol: ‘My question is if a couple is committed to each other as you described then what would prevent them from marriage and make the relationship legal?’

    Legal according to who? There is no law in the US against cohabitation. If the couple is not religious then they are not acting against their beliefs so there is no immorality involved there. Although I personally would never do it, I don’t judge those that do for whatever reason. Unless of course they are not married intentionally so that the woman can collect welfare as a single mother. Also, there is a HUGE difference between a couple having sex in a commited loving relationship and promiscuity.

  68. @Saudi Woman
    KAUST of course. One graduate institute.

  69. I think it all depends on which lens it is viewed through. For Saudis having sex outside of marriage is sinful and immoral. I think that has a lot to do with tribalism and a male dominated society…no guy wants to be “one upped” or have “his woman” despoiled by any other man. It speaks directly to his status in society…and in a day and age when it was important to know who your children were because you had to provide support for them it might have made sense. So for them any outside activity is immoral. In the West,we tend to view sex between CONSENTING adults who care and love each other as less distasteful. We give them the freedom to make their own choices and make their own lives because it does not directly affect any man, (father, brother, uncle etc.) in his life and how he is viewed by society. The woman and man involved bear the brunt of scrutiny if there is any and it doesn’t “stain” the rest of the family. For us, immoral behavior is more about breaking the Golden Rule…lying, cheating, stealing, being dishonest with a partner, breaking trusts and betraying people, killing in ANY form or fashion except in a case of self defense and imminent, immediate danger etc because these things affect OTHER people and therefore breaks the unspoken rule of individual freedom…But in a society where what one does (such as sex outside of marriage) affects other people then that naturally will be seen as immoral. And 50 years ago in the West or at least the USA it was considered immoral. And we still have our own levels of immorality…for example a young teen that has many sexual partners will be seen as immoral. Even an adult male or female that has many partners might be seen as lacking in a moral code. Age definitely plays a part in how a person is viewed based on their sexual activity. Maybe one of the biggest differences is that in the West we don’t feel it is our right to mind everyone else’s sexual business if they are an adult. I think if they are a teen it does make a difference to people as we see them as immature making poor choices. So maybe what is wrong for one society isn’t for another and should not be judged as so. Having said that I still think that a person should have the right to decide for themselves how they want to be viewed…and should be free to make their own life…

  70. WE invented marriage…you know the whole go to the courthouse and sign papers and make it all legal and proper in the eyes of the govt…meanwhile in the past the govt had nothing to do with the union between two people. Only now is marriage some sort of “next step” because of legal issues such as medical, inheritence etc. People get married now days to facilitate ease of the legal morass the govt has made out of what use to be a fairly straight forward union between two people.

    before you just needed to stand before your religious establishment and promise to cohabitate with the other in an upright moral way….now the govt has made it not only a chore to get married…but to stay married and to get divorced with all the legalalese they have incorporated into it.

    We invented marriage…we can be flexible about what it means and not everyone has to agree and engage with the “accepted” definition of it.

    You dont have to be legally sanctified by the govt of your particular country/city whatever to be in a committed loving relationship…we the people decided you have to to be seen as properly united…just like we the people decided at some point a piece of paper indicating one of you belongs to the other grants permission to have HOLY god sanctified sex.

  71. Medina … There is just as much mental illness in KSA and the rest of the Muslim World as there is in ‘the west’. It’s just not acknowledged and talked about and I am given to understand there is also not much help for those who suffer. Do a bit more reading. Carol has even posted about it I believe.

  72. In US society and I would guess much of the West, the only way men and women can get together is through socializing with the opposite sex. That may be done through supervised events such as dances at school or churches, or through individual dating. Intra-family marriage as in the Arab world is frowned upon in most of the West. For many adults who move away from home after college, there are simply family resources to use to find a spouse.

    When I hear Muslims talk about the evils of dating, I wonder if they understand anything of the West. There are no extended familes (I had no living grandparents by my teenage years). In my case when I was a young adult, there were no churches, since I was an agnostic (still am). Maybe single person dating isn’t perfect but there are few alternatives.

  73. Students in medical depts are a vivid menifestation here, they DO study with males. Most of us study under male teachers too in univ. Also, If you work in bank, hospital for example the chance of having a male partner is high… There are many examples of how we mix with men, and the choice is left to the society, people select whatever fits them. The majority are so conservative to allow women study/work with men, yet there are some who are open-minded about that. So, why do you assume that our society attempts to segregate between the two genders?

    If we prefer to preserve our religious/cultural values and avoid befriending men or keep our relation within formal limits, westerners are not happy with that? they want to force their lifestyle into our life.. It’s either we believe in what they believe or we’re backward?? I really don’t get it. The point is, there is a mutual negative feeling between the east and west in general. The same way we depict the west as immoral, you depict the east and Saudi in specific as backward. It’s better to work on understanding and respecting eachother values than go on in pointless circular arguments.

    Peace.

  74. مها نور إلهي
    Sarcasm, well, I can’t help it, when you claim that Islam doesn’t look on others as inferiors I have to read again to see if you aren’t the one who is sarcastic in the first place.

    My sources, let’s see, the Quran and the hadith, very reliable I thought unless you want to be sarcastic of course.
    And my Arab speaking Arab friends who tell me that as they know the quran in Arabic, and read the translations there is nothing wrong with those translations. We had a discussion about it last week, there is nothing so incredibly mysterious or complicated about the text of the Quran that you cannot adequately translate it. Same for the hadith.
    And then there are the actions and remarks of the Muslims themselves. Haven’t most of us read how another blogger wrote on her blog that hindus, atheists etc. were not human? Only breathing machines? Aren’t the Quran and hadith very clear about what to do with unbelievers?

    And as I take it you speak Arabic you are aware, or should be aware, that in your ritual prayers, if you do the minimum, you curse the Jews and Christians 17 times a day.

    Treating women second rate is in Islam. As long as the Quran says that the testimony two women is needed to equal that of one man. That makes women only half of what men are.
    Women get less in inheritance.
    Men are allowed up to four wives, but women are not allowed four husbands.
    And men can divorce women just by telling them so, but women have to go to court, while the men get to keep the children. makes it clear who is the preferred gender.
    Men are allowed sex with all the female slaves they own. Against their will of course, but then rape is not even mentioned once in the quran.
    Which in my book scores very low on the morality scale.

    And then there are the hadith, women outnumber men in hell because they are by default, always, irrepressibly deficient in their deen,
    Angels will weep and curse the woman who refuses sex to her husband … (while he can refuse or spend his time with the competition)
    etc etc.

    I’m against any religion which denies women equality. I am against any religion which incorporates hatred towards people outside the group.

  75. *why do you assume that our society attempts to segregate between the two genders? *

    OMG, is that sarcasm??? I don’t know anymore….

    Are there any indications that Saudi Arabia attempts to segregate the genders? Have I missed something again?????

  76. Aafke…

    As I am not familiar with the prayer could you tell me how they curse Jews and Christians 17 times a day? If that is true why would anyone say a prayer like that? I’m a bit confused…

  77. oby….every prayer must have sura Fatiha recited at the beginning…sura Fatiha says…

    “show us the straight path. the way of those of whom you have bestowed your grace, not those who have earned your wrath or those that have gone astray”

    those who have earned “wrath” are considered to be the Jews who were cursed by God according to scripture…those gone “astray” are believed to be Christians who have turned Jesus into God….thus…according to some Jews and Christians are being cursed in the prayer…as in dont make us Muslims like those you have cursed.

    More or less.

  78. I have been thinking today about why our respective cultures consider the other immoral, and I think it is quite reasonable from the different points of view we are.

    As you can see from the comments here, Islam is obsessed with sex, most of the perceived immorality of the ”west” is it’s fairly permissive attitude towards people having sex.
    Strengthened with a mistaken idea that dating means sex, and people getting together means ex, and people working together means sex, etc.

    I don’t know why patriarchal religions are so incredibly obsessed about sex but they are, and as Saudi Arabia is a theocracy, the whole country is like monastery. And the whole country is obsessed with sex.
    Segregation doesn’t help of course.
    And then in Saudi Arabia the outer facade is more important than the real behavior. As long as you keep your antics secret nobody cares. In the same vein lying, and I seem to see especially lying to women, is acceptable.

    And so ”the West” where most people think sex is a private affair and nobody else’s business, and people are quite open talking about stuff and especially when it goes wrong, and the media love to pick out the most screwed examples to air on the media, is naturally seen as a place steeped in sin.

    As ”morality” goes this is almost the opposite to how most people in my country think. Sex is for people to decide individually, what and when and if and with whom, and it isn’t really anybody else s business.
    Marriage is an option. In my country a lot of couples just don’t believe in marriage as such. It is considered old fashioned and obsolete.
    And of course it is something which is invented by humans in the first place, And it doesn’t really mean anything if you don’t think it means anything.
    Nowadays there are a great many different forms of ”partnership”. All acceptable and moral.
    And there are women who decide to have children without having a man. Their own decision, nobody else’s business. nothing immoral about it.
    While lying and cheating, and messing up a relationship with having sex with another partner (that includes marriage to multiple wives) is considered seriously immoral.

    So from each others point of view there is some reason for both sides to consider each other immoral.

    I never thought I’d come to this conclusion.

  79. @A Saudi Woman
    You are only fooling yourself if you think the kind of “studying under a male professor” is anything like normal gender interaction. I you are who I think you are even the college you work at has plenty of headaches trying to work things out with the male teachers on campus. Student access to male professors can be difficult because of all the regulations etc.

    And it is absolutely UNTRUE that people select what suits them. A woman’s Mahrem or owner gets to do that. IF you really live in Saudi you know that very well women can and do not get to choose if they can attend college or what major they study.

    Banks? Are you kidding. The men and women’s departments talk on the phone and they have some veiled non-Saudi couriers who run the paperwork back and forth.

    Only in the medical field is there anything approaching normalcy.

    Why do I assume there is segregation – because there is. Let the women truly chose for themselves and then lets see what happens. If they truly wish to ive a segregated life fine.

    And as for businesses that try to employ women. That is a minefield. Depending on the type of business someone is running they need government permits. And they are not all issued by the same agencies. And some of those permit issuing entities don’t allow women working in the office. Or the regulations- as with lingerie shops- are so expensive that the company can’t afford to hire women.

    Shall I go on? You know better. You know your mahrem could decide you must stay home and quit your job. You know you could not go out and get any job you were qualified for even if your children were starving- and some Saudi women are in that very situation.

    I’m sorry. Imprisoning half the population IS immoral. Most of the world has done away with slavery. Saudi IS backward- and not because people “choose” it. Free people and see what they choose before you expect anyone to believe your nonsense.

  80. @oby, Aafke and Coolred
    Regarding Al Fatiha and prayer. It is true many Muslims interpret that to mean the Christians and the Jews. And even some Quran’s (notaby Hilali and KHan) insert it into the translation. But that does not mean all Muslims believe that. I fully believe that Allah could have said “Christians” and “Jews” if that was what he meant. It is convenient for some people to interpret it that way. I was Muslim for YEARS before I ever heard that interpretation. It’s not for me to say who Allah has graced or earned his wrath. I merely pray to be guided well.

    “show us the straight path. the way of those of whom you have bestowed your grace, not those who have earned your wrath or those that have gone astray”

  81. Sandy…your right..not all Muslims believe that interpretation. I was just putting it out there as some sort of explanation for what one Imam Aafke was claiming.

  82. @Aafke…I am sorry for you dear! You need to go more in depth and you need to read a lot more …and rely on real scholars not on “friends”…I have never heard that Muslim friends can be a reliable source!

    Al-Fatiha does not have a curse…it has a prayer that asks for guidance to the right path; not the path of the people who have gone wrong (who ever they might be)..there is not one single word that says “curse” اللعن and there is not one word that specifies the Jews or Christians…The Jews that are cursed in Quraan are only the ones in the Sabbath story..and their descendants are not cursed according to many Muslim scholars that I have read for….

    What you don’t know about Islam is that we_Muslims_are not allowed to pass a judgment on Christians or Jews or any other people…Allah says that He will not accept anyone who does not embrace Islam…but He also says that he bestows His mercy on whomever He wants…We as Muslims are not allowed to say that this Christian or Jewish person will go to hell…
    Prophet Mohammad never cursed any of his Christian or Jewish contemporaries. On the contrary, he used to pray for them to be guided to the right path as the famous story of Thageef people shows.
    Thageef people harmed the prophet and threw him with stones, but he only said: May Allah guide them to the right path.

    Now, if you do not believe in Islam or in Allah, no one has the right to force you, but you are obliged to be respectful to Islam and to all heavenly religions.
    If you have read poorly translated books on Islam, please don’t spread this ill knowledge.

    I have read the Bible and I have read many things that didn’t appeal to me, but I cannot insult Christianity because my religion orders me to respect all religions.

    If you have met silly, ignorant, or brutal Muslims, they only represent themselves; not Islam.

    Peace

    Maha Noor Elahi
    http://www.saudirevelations.wordpress.com

  83. I don’t need scholars. Scholars are the twits who claim that earthquakes are due to women showing cleavages, it’s scholars who put out fatwas that women have to cover until only one eye is showing, it’s scholars who come up with the insane fatwas like women have to breastfeed strange men in order to be able to work with them as colleagues.

    No thank you, I can read.

    And I notice you do not want to discuss the fact that women are second rated to men in the quran and hadith?
    Well, it’s a lost fight from the start, so naturally you would not like to enter into that discussion.

    I have no respect for religions.
    Not for Islam, nor for any other man made religion.
    I will not give respect to a religion unless they could prove to me they deserve respect.

  84. @coolred,Sandy…

    Thanks for explaining. I HOPE very much that people choose not to judge others if they follow other faiths whatever that might be…I think most followers of any faith think that they are on the right path or they wouldn’t choose it…but I don’t think that anyone other than God, Allah, Yaweh or whatever one calls Him(or her! 😉 )has the right to say so. I think this world would be a hugely better place if we all picked a faith but respected our neighbors right to pick a faith (or not) and leave it up to god to decide. I have always seen God like a parent and we as his children. Is it up to the other children to decide who is right or wrong or in a “family” does the parent make the decisions and furthermore if a child strays do they stop loving them or do they still love them regardless…maybe a really Christian way of looking at it but also a humane way too I think.

  85. @Aafke
    I am glad you clarified where you stand and I respect that…the scholars that I was talking about are not the insane ones that you are talking about and you know it….I am not sure how many real and good scholars you have read for, but if let me put it this way…why do you need to read for reliable scholars (who are mostly non-Saudis?) It is the same reason you need to go to a doctor for…you cannot decide whether you need an operation for on you own for instance…same thing is with scholars…

    As for the issue of women, I am avoiding it because I don’t like to drag this issue in every discussion….
    What I personally believe in is that women are bing used and belittled in all cultures in different ways and forms….at the end of the day, it all pours into men’s favor….What is happening in Saudi Arabia is not from Islam…the Prophet Mohammad never belittled or mistreated any woman…The second reliable source to learn from in Islam are Aisha’s narrated Hadtihs…Many Islamic scholars at that time took knowledge from her…if Prophet Mohammad thought that women were inferior, he would never put his trust in a woman to pass on his knowledge…

    As for me, I am a free independent woman…I have my job and a career that I work day and night to develop…I have a loving husband, who values my opinions and reads my articles before anyone else…and he thinks I am the best writer he has read for 🙂 He is also a harsh critic of my articles…My father respects me and always encourages me to resume my PhD and publish my writings…my two brothers think very highly of me and consult me every now and then….I wore hijab a few years ago ..it was my own choice…

    I work in a very professional place where there are many other women who empower me and spread positive energy….

    The only problem that I have is that once I mix with people outside my family and outside my workplace, I am faced with a great deal of negative energy and hatred….

    I don’t like to deal with people who hate others or who hate life…I like to know people who are active and proactive ..people who work more than talk or write…And this is the reason why I haven’t been positing a lot in my blog or in other blogs…I believe the world needs my efforts more than my opinions…

    I don’t look at myself as a second class citizen and if a man looks at me this way, I usually give him a piece of my mind! Men need us to educate them and raise them to become better humans… and that is what I am doing with the men in my circle 🙂

    So…I am not the best woman to give you all that “help-me-save-me” cry….you need to discuss women’s issues with an oppressed woman, who loves the role of the victim…surly that is not me…but you will find plenty…don’t worry 🙂

    I believe we can have a really interesting and amusing discussion if you put your hatred to Islam and all your prejudices aside. 😉

    Peace
    Maha Noor Elahi
    http://www.saudirevelations.wordpress.com

  86. This is a very good interview, Wafa Sultan explains how badly women are treated in Islam, and also how Muslims, herself as well, are indoctrinated from childhood onwards so they cannot even recognize how unacceptable some of the problems of Islam are.

    And to get back on topic, these are the problems which are immoral and yes, also indicate very backward thinking.

  87. @Sandy and مها نور إلهي,

    The reference of cursing the Jews and Christians in the Fatiha is not something coming from only radical clerics. It is from the most respected Tafsir (explanation) of Quran, the Ibn Kathir Tafsir. This is the most authentic and widely used of tafsir books. It is also found on many other writings. Further, Ibn Kathir does not just give his interpretation, he also supports it with Hadiths that relay the prophets words on the explanation. You surely can believe in a milder version of Islam and it is really appreciated, but you are in the minority and you also have an interpretation of the religion that does not comply with the teachings and writings of the most distinguished scholars of Islam.

    @Maha, You also claim that you read the best scholars and you read in Arabic so you know Islam better than others just because of knowing Arabic. 2 issues here:

    1) You argued that Islam does not look down on others. Your own words about lack of knowing Arabic makes people inferior, contradicts your argument.
    2) Your most distinguished scholars contradict your argument about cursing the Christians and the Jews. Hence, you do not seem to read much, since you argue that others only read these things from insane scholars. That is unless you consider Ibn Kathir in the group of insane scholars.

    By the way I think you do not really know your own religion nor your scholars as well as you claim to.

    AB sorry this was out of topic.But there was so much talk and claims about interpretations in English are not reflective of the religion. I just wanted to correct that. Next reply will be on the debate page, I promise 🙂

  88. “So…I am not the best woman to give you all that “help-me-save-me” cry….you need to discuss women’s issues with an oppressed woman, who loves the role of the victim…surly that is not me…but you will find plenty…don’t worry ”

    Maha Noor, you are very fortunate to have good mahrem, a husband and father who have supported your choices. But I’m wondering, what about the women in Saudi who are less fortunate, whose choices are not supported or who have abusive mahrem? What are their options? Maybe I’ve interpreted your statement incorrectly, but it seems like you are saying oppressed women are opressed only because they “love the role of victim.” Do you think this is really the case? This isn’t about Islam, it’s about the legal status of women in Saudi Arabia. I guess, somewhat off topic.

  89. @Moq,
    I am aware of what you are saying. But I’ve never been big on “scholars” or hadith. I think they have some academic interest. And are a primarily a window in the times they are written. I think the “science” of hadith is not very scientific and that the jurists through the ages never meant for their ruling to become fixed in stone. Before anyone else jumps on me, I am not saying these men didn’t all have good intentions- maybe most of them did. But just because Bukhari prayed to rakah before including a hadith in his collection does not mean that Allah agreed to that arangement.

    The interpretation of “Christian and Jew” seems a bit obscure to me. I never heard it for years. Also, if I’m not misaken the tafsir you are refering to is in part the most widely read because it is so all encompassing. It is also my understanding that he just recorded everything that people were saying- not everything that was true. Two very different things- and something that should be taken into account when reading it. So yes. I believe it was SAID. That doesn’t make it true.

  90. @Maha,
    My problem with women like you who have it so good, is that you then pretend to the world Saudi isn’t so bad. I sure hope you don’ go around telling people everyone has drivers, because that isn’t true either.

    Women suffer terribly under the Saudi legal system of women being owned by men.. Don’t you want for your sisters what you have been lucky to have IN SPITE of the Saudi system? I have repeatedly said there are many good Saudi men out there. That doesn’t make the system right in any way. Nor does it make the suffering less for all those with not so enlightned owners.

    So if that is too “negative” for you it is also the truth. If you don’t want to hear about it maybe you shouldn’t go around trying to make Saudi seem fine, just because your lucky enough to have your good life. If you can’t at least speak the truth for those poor women- don’t be suprised when others do. You think people are Saudi bashing? They care more about the women in your own country than you apparently do. I guess the suffering women are too “negative” for you as well.

  91. I think that the reason that Saudis think that Westerners are immoral is the same as why Westerners think that Saudis are terrible/terrorists…simple ignorance, or wanting to believe that. Maybe a Saudi will be brought up only knowing that a very general “West” all engage in what the Saudi believes is haram, and so a view of immorality is developed. I’m fourteen and that’s my two cents…

  92. @Sandy,

    “I am aware of what you are saying. But I’ve never been big on “scholars” or hadith. I think they have some academic interest.”

    I understand, but you do not represent Islam just your own spirituality. Islam, like any religion, is built on dogma. Whether it is a scripture from a god, a collection of legend (ex hadith) or scholarly works. Without these there is no unifying religion and it just becomes personal spiritual believes.

    Now I do feel the later is great and I wish all the world does that. However, we have a body of work and dogma that the great majority of Muslims follow. That becomes the definition of the religion.

    I like what I read from you, but let’s not pretend that is Islam and ignore what the majority of Muslims believe in.

  93. @Moq,
    When I said “obscure” I meant that the average Muslim does not view it this way. The average Muslim in my experience does not think it means Jew and Christian- though that has probably changed some with the Wahabi, Saudi-sponsered Hilali-Khan Quran translations that stick it directly into the English translations.

    This sticking of Tafsir into the translation, rather than simply footnoting, also speaks to me of some sort of insecurity. As though they just want it accepted as Quran and not thought about too much. I think they know very well, that many would hold that type of Tafsir to a very different standard than Quran so they are trying to fool people into believing it is Quranic.

  94. @Sandy, see debate page for my reply..

  95. @Sandy…Who said I didn’t care about Saudi women? And did I mention that the Saudi system is good?

    What I said is that I don’t want to discuss women’s issues here in this post , but if you search somewhere else, you will find me talking about women’s issues.

    My Arabic blog is 90% devoted to women’s issues…but when I don’t discuss Saudi women’s issues, I discuss it with “Saudi” women only…people of other societies should not be thrown into such discussions because no matter how well-educated and well-informed about my country and my religion, they are not the sons and daughters of this culture…Imagine me discussing teen’s pregnancy in the States! Who am I to talk about this issue? I don’t belong to the American culture although I might have read more books in English than an average American…but I know my limits…I do not belong to the American culture…
    Our issues can only be solved by us….you see when Westerners interfere in Saudi women’s issues, they make it very difficult for us to make any kind of change because the so-called religious authorities will resist very very severely …. I appreciate all the concern about our issue, but seriously, ladies, you are making reform impossible…You are making us distracted …you are making us face two fronts, facing the authorities and explaining what you are saying ….

    @MoQ
    Speaking Arabic does not make me superior to any non-Arabic speaking person, but it makes me more understanding of the language and culture….And although I speak English, you are still better than me in understanding your language and your culture…so there is no superiority here for anyone….
    In fact , the people who have this superior “white woman” attitude are plenty in this blog.

    As I said to Sandy, you people, by your interference, are making our lives and our mission to reform very difficult.

    I think you know very well that any change should come from within.

    Regarding the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, many modern scholars have found a lot of misinterpretations in his explanation of Quraan and Hadith.
    Read Mohammad Al-Ghazali’s book on modern interpretation of Quraan…
    Many scholars as well have said that Ibn Kathir’s interpretations are influenced by “Israelites” narrations.
    Ibn Katheer is still a notable scholar, but his work has been revised over and over by many scholars who have come after him.
    This is a good sign that “real” Islamic schilars work so hard to seek the truth, and don’t just live by the “taken-for-granted” and ready-made interpretations.

    Many scholars today refuse the interpretation that says the Jews and the Christians are meant in Surat Al-Fatiha because the description of “the ones who have gone astray” fits a lot of Muslims as well….it makes more sense this way and that is what many scholars like AL-Ghazali, Al-Qaradawi, Al-Sharawi, and AL-Buti say.

    By the way, just a note for everyone here, scholars in Islam are not viewed as perfect people…they make mistakes that can be refuted or corrected by other scholars….and by the way, all the scholars above are non-Saudis.

    Many people I know agree that there are no good scholars alive…the best ones have passed away leaving a heritage of deep and profound knowledge ; not just scratching the surface as in “Haram” or “Halal” like what most scholars do now 😦

    I am so sorry I got off topic, which I hate, but it seems to be contageous in this blog 🙂

    Thank you

    Peace
    Maha

    http://www.saudirevelations.wordpress.com

  96. @Bayan
    I second your opinion 🙂
    There are misconceptions and misunderstandings between the two worlds….they view us as terrorists and ignorant, and we view them as advanced but immoral…not that I think like that, but this is how it is happening ….

    by the way, I just wrote a very long reply for MoQ and Sandy, but I don’t know where it disappeared!

    I will be back after I cook dinner 🙂

  97. مها نور إلهي
    If you put more than one link into the comment it will automatically go to moderation, and sometimes comments go to moderation for no reason. As soon as Carol or the moderator goes into the account they will find it and pass it.

  98. I really don’t think people should start with the assumption that people don’t know anything. The problem is that most of us know a lot. We have read the Qoran, Muslim, Bukhari and ibn Kafir, the manifesto on how to interpret Islam. You cannot make the assumption that we do not read ”The important scholars” because we do.Now you may not like these scho9lars but then you are amongst an extremely small minority amongst Muslims and the other Muslims probably don’t regard you as a proper Muslim.

    And we ”white women” have every right to talk about the culture in Saudi Arabia, because besides from caring about the millions of Saudi women who are treated as slaves; that culture, those denigrating views on women, that ideal of slavery for all women, is being exported into our own countries as we speak.
    The artificial misogynistic culture Saudi Arabia concerns us all.

  99. Oops, typo, Ibn Kathir
    And others btw.

  100. Aafke is absolutely right. I am here to attest to the fact that this ‘white woman’, while never having set foot in Saudi Arabia, has been very personally affected by the culture of Saudi Arabia that was exported to my country to invaded my home and tear my family apart. So, I guess it DOES matter to ME whether you stand up against the injustice against women (sold as religion) in your country or defend it as you do?

    Speaking of defending things. I’m curious Carol. When you would hear Saudis talking about the ‘immorality’ of the ‘west’ did you challenge their beliefs or did you nod your head and agree with them about their moral superiority? If I ever hear people saying incorrect things about Islam or Muslims I correct them.

  101. “White women”? Really??

    Sorry. I am not making anything worse. And I will not be quiet. And sorry, Saudi women need help. It is often ONLY outside pressure and exposure that shames the country into a small concesion, usually on an individual case. It was outside pressure that helped South Africa end Apartheid- and whether or not you believe it helps- too bad.

    You give every impression you aren’t much concerned with the suffering women in your country because you try to pretend that life is fine for Saudi towards people who know better. You tried to misrepresent things on this blog because you think it is a Saudi only issue. Well it isn’t. Anyone can care about what happens in Saudi. You are part of the world community and you are practicing gender Apartheid. People are going to notice and care.

    Nowhere in Islam are people told to ignore the suffering of Muslim women because they are in another country OR because they have WHITE SKIN.

  102. “Speaking of defending things. I’m curious Carol. When you would hear Saudis talking about the ‘immorality’ of the ‘west’ did you challenge their beliefs or did you nod your head and agree with them about their moral superiority? If I ever hear people saying incorrect things about Islam or Muslims I correct them.”

    @Lynn – Yes; I did challenge those statements and beliefs. The same way that I know the majority of Muslims are not bad or are fundamentalists or terrorists, the majority of Westerners are good people with high values.

    We all need to look more at the similarities of beliefs and customs instead of focusing on the distinctions!

  103. Agree with Sandy, outside pressure ended slavery in Saudi Arabia in the 1960s, and I don’t think the situation of women will improve without outside pressure.
    Outside pressure, and internet pressure, has already saved several individual Saudis.

    Bloody racist isn’t it? That comment about White Women…

    As if being white suddenly makes us incapable of having an opinion…
    As if we can help the color of our skin.

    Well actually we can.
    And do.
    The majority of the Dutch work very hard every summer to change their white skin to brown and I think it’s pretty mean to deny the hard effort and money people put into tanning themselves and still call them white….

  104. Actually, I’m not sure all of us even are white? Are you? Am I? Is Lynn? Is MoQ? Does MoQ have a “White Woman” attitude? And actually aren’t Arabs considered white? No? I never thought to ask what everyone’s skin color is. Ok. Technically it was white woman “attitude”. What’s that? White Women think that “women shouldn’t be oppressed?” Black women don’t think that? Arab women don’t think that? Coffee coloured Dutch don’t think so? Very confusing.

  105. Sorry. I’m guessing however hard they try it’s more “cafe au lait” Dutch people.

  106. yeah, let’s ask everybody what color they are, só much more interesting as to what their ideas and what they think,because now I don’t know either who’s ”white” and who isn’t. But my ancestors came from Africa.
    So there you have it. :mrgreen:

    It’s very mean to tell The Dutch they are not brown! Do you know that in the summer they all put their arms together to see who is the brownest? It’s like a competition. They start in spring and keep doing that all through the summer.
    And calling them ”café-au-lait” is denigrating!!!! :mrgreen:

  107. I am a proud Asian American, probably more yellow than brown or white. The color of my skin doesn’t change the fact I care about other women who are not as fortunate as I am. What Saudi women advocates is a common problem I see with people from Eastern cultures. It’s the “this isn’t your problem” so keep out. There’s a huge cultural norm of having an outside persona and an inside persona. When something happens people close rank and try to pretend there isn’t any problems to those outside. Face and honor mean so much more than honesty and community.

    As for the “white women” here, I believe Sandy is married to a Saudi and lives there. She deals with the reality there everyday and has every right to speak up. I agree though that if it weren’t for all the exportation of Saudi style Islam a lot of “white” people could care less about what happens in Saudi. There are others here though with strong ties so it’s rather rude of SW to tell everyone to butt out. MoQ btw is a male with A LOT of experience regarding Islam and Muslim culture.

    I’m sure there are quite a few Saudis who appreciate the help that the outside world has been. The Qatifi girl who was raped but sentenced jail and lashes to name just one. International pressure and embarrassment can make a difference especially nowadays with the internet.

  108. This was addressed to MoQ

    “And although I speak English, you are still better than me in understanding your language and your culture…so there is no superiority here for anyone….”

    I thought he was an Arab whose first language and culture was Arabic though he knows English well and lives in the United States. Am I wrong in thinking that?

  109. Ok. I admit it I’m white. And yes I am married to a Saudi and have lived in Saudi for many years. I believe MoQ is Arab. As to his color- that’s for him to reveal- but I’m pretty sure he’s not a white woman.

    Aafke! Denigrating? I thought cafe au lait might be an overstatement! I wanted to give proper due to all that hard work!

  110. Oh, sorry.
    As I can’t be bothered to tan, and I don’t like being hot and in the sun, my nickname in summer was ”milkbottle”.
    And that wasn’t meant nicely.
    Ok, I will confess too, I am a white witch!
    So I loved it when my sisters who tan very easily were doing the arm thing and laughing at me, and M, one of my bestest friends who was staying with me and who happens to be the blackest black, added her arm to the competition and blasted my sisters! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

    Yep, I seem to remember Moq at least has grown up in some Arabic country, and been taught at Arabic schools?
    One really shouldn’t assume on the internet…
    Still, he could secretly be a ”white woman” and just pretend he is an Arab bloke….
    Moq, be honest, reveal to us the color of your skin so we can evaluate the appropriateness and validity of your comments.

  111. @Sandy.

    I think I did a great job faking a white woman attitude 🙂

    It is always fun to watch how people with weak arguments can take the attitude that “I know Arabic and you do not”, so my argument is more valid. The problem is they want to strengthen their argument based on only the fact that they speak Arabic, forgetting that may be,just may be others who speak Arabic can read the same text and come up with a different conclusion. In reality their argument just falls a part like a house of cards. What is even stranger is the same person claims she does not think of her self as a better person, when she starts with assumptions.

    @Maha, you cannot have it both ways. At one point you argued against others because they are not reading the right Scholars. When someone comes back with the interpretation of one of the top Islamic Scholars of all times. Actually one with the best used and accepted explanations of the Quran, you discount it as something that new less known scholars have different interpretation. The question for you, how do you know what is a reputable scholar in your world? Are they the ones that agree with your argument of the day?

  112. “Moq, be honest, reveal to us the color of your skin so we can evaluate the appropriateness and validity of your comments.”

    Hmm, now that the white girl gig is up, I guess I can go with Indian American, olive with the hint of caramel colored skin. A few freckles and long wavy blonde hair although it is a fake color suggested by my hair dresser. I do not think that was a wise idea, but I will stick with it for a couple of weeks 🙂

    Ok, all kidding a side, I am male of Arabic background and yes I do speak and read Arabic as a first language. I can tell you also that the argument of having to know Arabic gives anyone an advantage in knowing Islam is just an excuse for someone with a weak argument to cover their lack of knowledge. I find that most of the interpretations of text and major works are as good in English as in Arabic. Actually, English readers in some cases can get more diverse readings, as many of the new books done by scholars or college professors outside the Arabic world are available in English. Further, if you want to look at counter arguments to Islam, it is not available for the most part in Arabic.

  113. Uh oh..the old “your not reading the right scholars” finger pointing has begun.

    I take exception to the “white woman” reference. If that isnt a smack in the face I have no idea what is. Does the color of our skin invalidate our experiences or comments in some way?

    Women have been silenced by men since the beginning of time…hard enough to fight against that…but when it’s other women wanting to do the silencing…well we might as well lay down and die because with enemies like that in the ranks…there is no chance of ever winning the right to be heard and taken seriously.

  114. @Moq,
    From my understanding, Arabic is a very nuanced language. One word or phrase may have layers of meaning. Couldn’t one arrive at different interpretations based on this? I’m limited in my knowelge of Arabic, but I’m kind of a “meaning” nerd. I recently learned that Mukhtab “office” and “mukhtaba” Library, have similar roots. I then told my husband, shouldn’t it mean that your “work” should be a strive for knowlwdge and meaning? I wish I was fluent in Arabic, it truley strikes me as a mystical language.

  115. excuse my English 🙂 “striving for knowledge”

  116. @Maha,
    “Our issues can only be solved by us….you see when Westerners interfere in Saudi women’s issues, they make it very difficult for us to make any kind of change because the so-called religious authorities will resist very very severely”

    That is what I am saying to them for a year now. They make it difficult for us, Saudis, to solve our problems. You guys just leave us alone and always remember the Arabic saying, people of Mecca knows Mecca’s valleys better than anyone else.

    Maha, it is their habit, they catch the tail and leave the head which indicates that their arguments are very weak. They caught from your long post “white woman” and they will be busy it for a while but they will never understand your way of speaking. Our Arabic style of talking is a poetic one. I got what you meant by your reference to “white woman” but they did not. This explains why they should speak Arabic if they want to discuss Saudi issues and even if they speak Arabic, they will not be able to speak it as a native Arabic speaker does which will cause always misunderstanding.

    Note: if you want to argue about Saudi women issues, go to Saudi Arabic blogs and debate with “Saudi women”. I am sure you will find a huge number of Saudis who can debate with you 24 hours.

    @Niels,
    please try to read between lines next time and try to read the second link I posted and you will find that I read very well. I did not say that our social or health problems are yours. In fact you are trying to interfere in our social problems and judging us just because we are different than your society. As a mater of fact, my point was to ask you why all these psychological problems do exist in your society? Why people commit suicide, why they suffer from all kinds of phobia, and depression? All these questions should be answered before we Saudis start thinking of changing our lifestyles, values, social norms and adopt yours. Actually these scary information released in these websites may make me think to resist any change in my society because we are ok psychologically so far (: .

  117. Medina, glad to hear your society is “ok psychologically so far.” I’m not out to make your culture into mine. I rather like that there are differences around the world. I don’t want to travel to the Middle East and see AMERICA. I want to see the uniqueness of Syria, Jordan, Iran and so forth. 🙂

    I went back to read Maha’s comment about the “white woman” attitude in order to, hopefully, better understand this poetic Arabic way of speaking. Not sure that it worked though.

  118. @Medina and Maha,

    “Our issues can only be solved by us….you see when Westerners interfere in Saudi women’s issues, they make it very difficult for us to make any kind of change because the so-called religious authorities will resist very very severely”

    Actually your analysis does not hold water as you have no sense of history in this respect. The West did not pay any attention to what goes on inside Saudi Arabia until 911 occurred. In the period of none interference in the name of cultural respect, Saudi was only an interest for oil and as an oddity of cultural curiosity. In the period between 1980 and 2000 , Saudi got more conservative and progressively worse in areas especially relating to the treatment of women and minorities. Additionally Saudi started exporting its ideology.

    It was not until after 2001 when the world started looking more into what happens in Saudi and criticized it severely. The pressure brought on some of the changes you see today. It is external pressure that brought the changes, since the Saudi government does not respect its citizens to make voluntary changes. They have to be shamed into it in the international community. The citizens have been lulled to sleep for years to argue for change (except for the radical ones of course).

    Now you can repeat these false arguments as you said above as many times as you like, but the facts and I mean, real facts not manufactured slogans such as you raise constantly, are against your argument.

  119. @Kristine,

    ” One word or phrase may have layers of meaning.”

    True there are areas where Arabic is used in such a manner to be hard to interpret. It is especially true of older text since the language has changed. This is exactly the reason why the great majority Arabic speaking people will rely on explanation of the meaning of the Quran from Scholars. Ibn Kathir which I mentioned earlier is the TOP one (not a disputed thing by the way regardless what Maha says).

    So, if most Arabs rely on explanations to clarify the books in terms where the average person can understand them, then why a clear translation of such clear explanation be any worse than the original. It is just a game that Arabic speakers try to use on others to claim superiority and provide backing for their bad arguments. Do not let them fool you by such claims, they usually just cannot support their arguments with logic and taking the easy way out 🙂

  120. AB,
    Sorry for the late reply. There are some cases that I have heard of where people are not able to marry legally right away due to divorce proceedings, immigration status, etc. There are also cases where two people may be pledged to one another but choose not to marry because they do not believe that a legal contract or “marriage” means anything because they have watched others abuse this status or have previously been in a bad marriage him-/her-self. There are other cases where two people may be waiting for a better timing to make it legal due to things occurring in their personal lives.

    In these cases, one might argue that the couple should wait until they are legally married to consummate the relationship, but this is something that people are going to have different views on. IMO, a relationship and/or marriage is only as valid and strong as the people in the relationship determine it to be irregardless of legal status.

  121. Hrm… maybe we should have left Saudi Arabia alone when Saddam invaded Kuwait and the Saudi military ran away from defending the holy sands. I wonder what Saudi would be now without the men AND women of the US military back then. I guess whitey help was ok then? Just think maybe 9/11 wouldn’t have happened since “supposedly” Bin Laden’s beef with the west started from that.

    So is the West supposed to applaud when 12 year old girls are sold…oops “married” off to geriatric men? Or a raped woman is punished instead of being helped as a victim? Or schoolgirls die in fires because they aren’t covered? Nope I guess we are just supposed to shut up because it’s not our culture. So what happens? Those that like the status quo keep it the way things are. Thankfully there seems be some people who understand that this is now a different world. International condemnation and worldwide embarrassment isn’t something Saudi Arabia can ignore if it wants a presence in the international community.

  122. مها نور إلهي
    1. First of all, I was not off topic. The subject is why many Westerners have a negative view of Muslims, and vice-versa.
    2. You once again said that I was ignorant of Islam and the Quran
    3. Above I made specific references to verses and attitudes that I find offensive.
    4. you ignored my comments. Since you did not object or say those these don’t exist, I assume you understand that there are, in fact, very offensive verses about non-Muslims in the Quran not to mention the traditions.
    5. Hence, to you, those verses mean nothing. They are not important and you discount them.
    6. Those same verses – and thousands of others – are the basis for the oppression and discrimination and violence that Muslims practice against non-Muslims.
    7. If I have very little knowledge (of Islam) compared to a Muslim who has read about her religion from the source in Arabic, why is it that I can easily correct the omissions, distortions and mistakes that Muslims so often make regarding the Quran, Ahadeeth and even their own early history?
    8. The fact is that Muslims are unable to be honest about Islam. You talk about how your prophet had Jewish and Christian friends, but you deny the curses and slander and even fail to mention that your dear prophet ordered the expulsion of all Jews and Christians from Arabia just before his death – something every schoolchild knows. Some friend, that!

    Let me give you another easy example of how unthinking you Muslims are

    Maha makes the following statement: “What is happening in Saudi Arabia is not from Islam…the Prophet Mohammad never belittled or mistreated any woman…The second reliable source to learn from in Islam are Aisha’s narrated Hadtihs”

    Ovbiously she is educated and familiar with some Islamic writings. She mentions the hadith, Kathir and other scholars. She deems Aisha to be the most reliable of all, I guess…

    Yet the words of these mean nothing. Muslims make up their own understanding when they don’t want to face the facts.

    Let me give three easy example of how wrong that quote is….
    1. from Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715: that details the extent of wife beating:
    Quote: Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!

    2. from Muslim, Book 004, Number 2127 – Mohammed hits Aisha
    Quote: and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

    3. from Muslim 19:4345 – War on women by the prophet and his “rightly guided caliph” (Aisha’s father)
    Quote: We made a halt during the last part of the night to rest and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day. the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) again met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah. I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca

    I was going to enter the links but why? These can be pulled up easily from Google on the USC and MSA site. It is not that Islam is backward, it is immoral – just like the West and probably worse.

    I would explain the moral implications of each of the three quotes above, but why bother? Muslims are incapable of seeing evil when it is about islam and its prophet.

    I will stop here. I despair for all of us. I have no faith that the West will wake up to the evil ideology that seeks domination and destruction, and even less faith that Islam and Muslims, even the good ones, will repent, change their ways and renounce hate and violence. We are doomed.

    JK

  123. @Medina,
    Why do you think there isn’t much mental illness in Saudi? What about the sexual deviancy of men? They behave so badly that women have to cover up- and even then they can’t behave.

    The Haia, spend all their day obsessing about women’s bodies and trying to look at them. When they can’t, they take boxes with swimming pool equipment and a black marker and black out the womens bodies in swimsuits. They “confiscate” porn. I’ve never seen such a collection of sex perverts. Isn’t that a type of mental illness?

    According to culture here, homosexuality is a type of mental illness. And in KSA there might be some truth to that because people who would normally not be homosexual become that way from all the gender Apartheid. That’s why there is so much more of it than other places.

    Depression. You don’t realize the degree of depression people, especially women are suffering from here? Probably not, you don’t know many Saudi women because you’re a man.

    And of course there isn’t nearlyl the help here for people who need it because it is something to be ashamed of an people pretend unwell people are well so “no one will know” .

    Maha and Medina.
    There is NO evidence that Saudi will solve it’s problems on it’s own. Before other stuck their nose in it was actually going backwards. Maha, talk to some older Saudi ladies about how it used to be.

    Either way, the truth is, for better or worse, when you started dabbling in the world by exporting your extreme Wahabism, you made it everyones business. And everyone is not going to leave.

    You might be intersted to know Maha that because of issues women suffer throughout the world there are many women interested in any case of women being oppressed. There is a concept of sisterhood and wanting for others a good life. Women all over the world are making women all over the world their business. And though you may not like it many Saudi women do.

    And some of them go off and speak at other institutions and they attend women’s conferences world wide. Even some colleges, collaborate heavily with Western, particularly American institutions to improve and/or develope their programs-including your place of work. Why don’t you work somewhere else that does not invite in all that American help? You cannot only interact with the world on your terms. People care even when you, sometimes care about your pride more.

  124. # Medina
    I simply don’t understand your comment regarding what I wrote. I opinionated your competitive view on western and arab societies.
    There is no doubt that modernizations of societies create space for mental illness, and in some ways also create some incidences of illness; but it’s also generally acknowledged that incidences of mental illness is much greater in arab societies that is accepted in the public discourse.
    I don’t think you have a choice regarding this, arab societies is being modern, like it or not. The parameter here isn’t personal will or belief, but the circumstances of life.
    If you look at ordinary diseases then Saudi is being hit hard by typically modern diseases, like diabetes II, kidney diseases, heart diseases. The occurrence of these illness has nothing to do with faith (or lack of it) and can’t be cured by faith.

  125. Sad this has taken a racial angle, but race/colour is a huge issue in Saudi, the Arab world, the Muslim world in general.

    I have had people accuse me of trying to fool people into thinking I am an Arab. One person, a former poster here, got IRATE when they found out I wasnt a Saudi. A claim I had never made.

    Anyways, I am a white American man, very white, blond hair, blue eyes, married to a Saudi citizen. I have a lot of tattoos, so I guess I am mostly white, with a lot a black, brown, blue, green, yellow, purple and the lick drawings on me.

    In this global world EVERYONE has a right to comment on ANYTHING. All of these people moaning about people talking about Saudi are the FIRST ones that will talk about the US and the West.

    If you dont like it, leave the forum, but stopping bitching about other people’s rights.

  126. @jay kactuz,

    Even though I have strong desire for this blog, I cant be regular due to my professional engagement. However, whenevr I see ur post – u direct everything as MUSLIM/ISLAM Vs Non-Muslims. What virus has infected you? Is it virus of inferiority complex? Or what?

    Well, its not Saudi only but unfortunately virtually all Asian country consider West as quite open. Ask any Indian or Sri Lankan, irrespective of their religion. Its due to how media/moview/TV shows. It is hard to find a hollywood movie without sex or kissing scene. Another main factor for such attoitude is human beings are often judgemental. Same is how west see Saudi and other Arab coutnries – for many all women are stoned to death, beaten by husband, no freedom for women, all masjids and madrassas are terrorist training centre, Muslims are taught to hate non-Muslims (as judged by Jay) and so and so.

    The moment people stop judging based on some few figures or examples,such attitude will perish away.

    There are Americans who fight for peace and justice for Muslims. There are Muslims who fight agaisnt Hate mongers like Al-Qaida or Taliban and love and treat non-Muslims as real friend. But, people fail to see greener sides but dark sides only.

    Ur such negative attitudes will kill u and u only. Try to take right and positive path too plz. Sorry, if my words hurt u.

  127. @Moq,
    Thanks for your explanation. I am not fooled 🙂 I didn’t realize that the Quran and Hadith was so difficult for the average speaker of Arabic. I guess my question was, based on the nuances of the language itself, couldn’t one arrive at different interpretations? For example, if one sentence has 3 layers of meaning, literally it would have one meaning, metaphorcally another, and mystically, yet another, could one arrive at 3 separate meanings? I wish I had an example. 🙂 but do you get what I mean?

  128. @Kristine,

    A person can communicate clearly in Arabic and can also talk or write in ways that are vague. It is no different than English in that regards. Poets in English for example will use metaphors.

    I think many Arabs are proud of their language and would like you to think it is mystical, more poetic, more expressive etc. I do think Arabic is a beautiful language. It has more complex grammar so it does provide more flexibility in constructing sentences than English. However, English is more rich in vocabulary.

    Now regarding Hadith and Quran. Hadith is really straight forward and can be understood by most. Quran can be difficult to understand in some areas since it is written in verse like poetry.

    In my opinion claiming that a book is mysterious and having miraculous hidden meanings, etc. is not an advantage. Books and words are written to communicate to people. It is counter intuitive for anyone to argue that a book has more significance, because the writer(s) of such book have written it in such way that it cannot be understood the same by all. That is a failure in the essence of what writing is about.

  129. @Sandy,

    I think Medina does not get the point that the lack of statistics from Saudi Arabia in the areas he mentioned actually makes Saudi worse. In Western countries governments and organizations, do care about the citizens well beings. So you get statistics dealing with issues, so solutions and programs can be developed to deal with them. The US and the West do have problems. The difference is in the West they actually seek an understanding of their issues and work to solve them.

    Now a guy like medina, who does not understand how much disservice his government is doing to him and to his follow citizens, will take that data and use it to attack the West.

    Medina, before using evidence of studies, you need to provide similar studies about Saudi to compare. Those should be ones provided from independent sources. When you have those and can compare, then may be you have an argument. Otherwise, I think you should be asking yourself, why doesn’t my government and institutions care enough to develop such analysis, so we can work on our country’s issues. Quit hiding your head in the sand and think you are superiors, when you are still sitting in darkness.

  130. Moq,
    Interesting, I didn’t know English was richer in vocabulary. Anyway, you and others are so fortunate to be be bi-lingual. I think it really expands your viewpoint on so many levels.
    This leads me to another question: Followers of Islam range from the dogmatic (Salafism) to the mystcial (Sufiism). How do you account for that difference? Could nuances of language play a role? This is off topic, so I will look for your response, and others on the debate page. Thanks!

  131. @Sausan,
    Yes I agree with you. I love diversity too and I do not wish that America become a Muslim country because I love diversity. So we are equal in this regard.

    Talking about history does not negate the fact that foreign people interfere in our Saudi internal social issues.

    @Kristine,
    I am a native Arabic speaker and I can tell you that I find it hard sometimes to understand Arabic fuseha and Quran. Also what Islamic scholars say is not necessary true and it does not necessary interpret the Quran. It is their interpretations and in Islam we do not have the power of clergymen as it is in Christianity. Every Muslim can study the Quran and understand it his way. So, I am not entitled to what Islamic scholars say, I am entitled to what I understand from the Quran and the context of the verses. This means that the Islamic studies are rich fields for people who want to make research and you can do a lot in this field and come up with something new. So, asking you to do your own research does not mean fooling you. It means someone gives you farmer’s tools and you have to dig your land.

    @oni,
    Are you sure that Saudi military ran away from defending the Saudi oil? humm, you need to support your argument with reliable resources. And I recommend that you watch the movie, Hotel Rwanda, it may give you a hint about how much a human being worth without “oil” in American foreign policy.

    @jay
    When will you stop your “little crusade” to be a friend?

    @sandy,
    No one said that there are no mental ills in Saudi but comparing to America, Saudis are much better for the fact that we do not have this huge number of people who commitee sudicide, or on drugs, or using guns in streets and robbery, etc. I can count my money in any saudi street at 2 am and without any fear that someone could attack me. CAN you count your money at 11 am in any american street? you live in fear in america and everone of you do not sleep without a pistol near his bed. WHY?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need answer to think of what you are trying to change in saudi. do not take me and my family to the fear you live in america. you play with our secuirty, our culture our feelings. it is a cultural crime you are all doing here. apersonal advice, if you do not like it in saudi, help yourself and go back to where you came from. we are happy by this way in saudi.

    @Niles,
    I don’t compete with anyone here neither at personal level nor at intergroup level. I just state facts and study these facts to make sure that I am on the right track. Niles, please try to understand that they want to change our culture. Do you get me?

    @abu,
    No one asked you not to talk about Saudi. We said that the outside interferes in Saudi issues make it difficult for us to solve our problems. You may like to hear your voice only? And you do not need to tell us here about how you look like, you may make some fitna for some ladies and it could be interpreted that you indirectly try to do flattering stuff, ya Momen (: .

  132. correction:
    @sandy,
    No one said that there are no mental ills in Saudi but comparing to America, Saudis are much better for the fact that we do not have this huge number of people who commit suicide, or on drugs, or using guns in streets and robbery, etc. I can count my money in any Saudi street at 2 am and without any fear that someone could attack me. CAN you count your money at 11 am in any American street? You live in fear in America and everyone of you do not sleep without a pistol near his bed. WHY?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need answer to think of what you are trying to change in Saudi. Do not take me and my family to the fear you live in America. You play with our security, our culture our feelings. It is a cultural crime you are all doing here. a personal advice, if you do not like it in Saudi, help yourself and go back to where you came from. We are happy by this way in Saudi.

  133. Medina, thank you for encouraging people to study for themselves, read for ourselves, and making our own minds up.
    That is exactly what I am doing.
    That is exactly what my father always told me to do.
    Study, make up your own mind, and never follow others.

    And Moq has now told us again that we are perfectly well supplied with all the English translations, so there’s nothing to stop us.

    Kristina, English is extremely rich in vocabulary. Also compared to my own language which is by no means an easy one, or deficient in vocabulary.
    English is just very, very rich in words.

    Which makes it a very good language for translations….
    😈

  134. Medina, sorry but you do not know how many mentally ill people there are in KSA. Nor do you know how many suicides there are in your country.
    You do not know.
    Nobody knows because there are no reliable independently compiled researches and statistics. So you can’t make all these comparisons.
    Like Moq said: *Medina, before using evidence of studies, you need to provide similar studies about Saudi to compare. Those should be ones provided from independent sources. When you have those and can compare, then may be you have an argument. Otherwise, I think you should be asking yourself, why doesn’t my government and institutions care enough to develop such analysis, so we can work on our country’s issues.*

  135. Dank u wel, Aafke!

    It’s good to know that, although I may not be bi-ligual, my language is rich in vocabulary! I really didn’t realize that until today.
    When I was a kid, I used to make up languages and my wish, if a genie came, would be able to speak any language at will.

  136. Kristine, I read a book recently and the author – an American – said when he went to various countries in the Middle East that he spoke classical Arabic and likened it to our speaking in Shakespearean or King James Version English nowadays. I guess people understand it, but it’s just not the norm. Like saying this:

    4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, (KJV)

    instead of this:

    4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud, (NLT)

    😀

    Add to that that some Arabs cannot even understand each other (e.g. my Syrian friend met a Moroccan in Germany with whom he spoke in English because one or both of them couldn’t understand the other’s Arabic) and I can see how the meanings of the Quran “need” to be interpreted by a scholar. I guess the word to the wise is beware your interpreter.

    Or as Medina said, they each can interpret on their own. I’m not sure how they do that when he admitted he didn’t understand parts of the Quran’s Arabic and it’s ideally not translatable.

    I’ve enjoyed yours and MoQ’s dialog about Arabic!

    I wonder if English is so rich in vocabulary because we have words from so many other languages! 🙂

    Medina, LOL… I don’t sleep with or near a pistol. We have no guns in our house. And I’m not scared either. 😛

  137. Susanne,
    Perhaps you are right that our vocab is rich because it contains words from other languages!
    Have you read “Bread of Angels” yet?

  138. @Medina,

    It is truly a global world out there so people are going to help and get involved in other people’s business. You might not like it, but there is nothing you can do about it.

    When things like 9/11 happen and the majority of the attackers are Saudi, dont you think the people of the West, and in particular America, aren’t going to start getting involved?

    If you want people to stay out of your business make sure the problems of your society do not spill over into mass murder of other nations. The defects in Saudi society are, literally, killing other people around the world.

    As to describing my looks, I wasnt the one who brought race into this. I am married to a Saudi and I am a citizen of a country attacked by Saudis, so on BOTH fronts I have a right to voice my opinions. Never mind I believe the fundamental nature of freedom of speech.

    As to suicides and the like, you have NO idea how many Saudis actually kill themselves because the government doesnt keep track. Even if they did, it would be in their best interests to cook the numbers because of the appearance it would give the world of the home of the two holy shrines had to many people offing themselves.

    As to the Saudi military, it is a paper tiger where they dont even have enough men to operate the equipment they have now. At least one huge warehouse has been built to store the tens of billions of dollars worth of equipment that will never be used.

    The Saudi military/national guard are for two things. One, to be used against their own people in case of unrest. Two, as internal tools between the varying factions contending for the Saudi crown.

  139. Kristine, I immediately put it on my “to get/read” list when you recommended it and even put it on my Amazon Wish List for the next time I purchased books. Then just last week I was browsing the library catalog and saw it was at a library in my county! So I plan to visit that library as soon as I finish the 3 books I got last week. I keep remembering that you wanted me to read it. 😀

  140. Susanne,
    Trust me, you will LOVE it! I kept thinking of you while I was reading that book. And I only know you through this blog!

  141. Good and bad people are everywhere irrespective of religion or place. Be it Saudi or America or anywhere. Why people are generalising and finger pointing to only one side/group/community/place?

  142. @ Medina. No guns in my family. No shootings in my American neighborhood.I absolutely DO NOT feel comfortable counting my money on the streets at ANY time in Saudi. There are plenty of robberies going on. There are also PLENTY of guns. And they just made new laws making it easier to buy them. There is also plenty of drug use here. You can get whatever you want. As in the US- I choose not to use.

    Statistics on suicide are hard to come by in Saudi. Because to die of suicide is to die outside of Islam, people will cover up.

    What do I want to change in Saudi Arabia? Two things. Human rights need to be respected by people and BY LAW, and education needs to be improved. Those 2 things should take care of the rest. The first thing is to admit there is a problem and not to pretend. To not pretend that women are viewed as property not as full people. Once everyone stops lying about that they can start to change it.

    You are not the first person to suggest I leave. Well sorry. I have said my personal life is a very happy one. Why would I leave? But for many Saudi’s ESPECIALLY women they are NOT HAPPY. I don’t know why it is so hard to believe that a happy person would want other people to be happy too. And that a person not being abused would not want the law changed so that others can have some legal protection from abuse. It never fails to amaze me how even Saudi women who have a good life will turn around and pretend the system is fine, because their life is fine and they don’t care about everyone else. And I KNOW they know better. Anyone who is a member of an extended Saudi family- such as myself and most Saudi’s- KNOWS of issues where a woman is suffering and stuck. Shame on all of you for pretending and ignoring them.

  143. @Md. Azad Ali Shah

    People are generally following the topic of this thread. And it is NOT a generalization that women are oppressed by culture and LAW in Saudi Arabia. It is just a fact.

  144. @Medina

    You really need to stop taking relying on MOVIES to make your points. Movies are fiction. No one I know even owns a gun let alone sleeps with one next to their bed. I feel comfortable counting money anytime of the day or night. I also feel comfortable enough to go out any time of the night alone without fear of rape, murder, or harassment. Would your sisters say the same thing about going out at 3 am alone in Saudi? Considering how harassed women are alone or even with their family any time of the day I doubt it.

    I am well aware of the evil my government did in not helping those in Rwanda. I am also aware how cheap human life can be to some people. Are you? Or do you see the poor abused third world workers in your country as something less then human?

    You may try reading history books instead of relying solely on tv/movies. Saudi Arabia could not defend its borders because of a weak military circa 1990 and I highly doubt it could now even with the billions of dollars of hi-tech equipment it buys. So I am willing to bet millions that if it came down to another war the first country Saudi would be asking for help from is mine. Which is my point i.e. “whitey” help isn’t so bad then huh? Then again if you think about all the “whitey” expats there needed to keep your country functioning….

  145. Medina, you really do seem like a very nice kid with a very kind heart but sometimes your thinking really disturbs me. It is not safe to live with your head in the sand as you do. I hope you pay better attention to your surroundings so you are safe.

    http://americanbedu.com/2009/10/15/meet-adam-a-saudi-american-teenager/

    ‘If you are up to answering this one, what has been your worst experience in Saudi Arabia?

    Getting robbed and thrown out of a moving car was definitely the lowest point in my entire life. I felt like I was going to die and no one would know. That day I lost all trust in humanity. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to trust people on the streets ever again’

    I have NEVER in my life had to feel that way living here in the U.S. And I’ll bet you anything that I could walk on the streets of my neighborhood at 2 am counting my money all the way and I would not have anything to fear. I do NOT live in fear here and I do NOT have a handgun in my house. My husband does own some hunting rifles but they are locked up in a gun safe in the basement and are used for hunting not protection.

    Another thing, If I could tolerate all the snickering, I could walk a crowded beach full of men while wearing a string bikini and I would likely not have to worry about being assaulted or groped like I might while performing Hajj! But, the thing is. IF I were to be assaulted or groped there are LAWS that will punish the person that did that rather than blame ME for being the uncovered meat.

  146. Interesting that god says the quran is easy for believers to understand and follow..yet Muslims say arabic is complicated and nuanced and not just anyone can interpret it…it requires the god blessed mind of the chosen few, muslim male scholars, to make sense of it. the common man, or woman, is walking on shaky ground as well as blasphemous ground, when he or she attempts to not only interpret but when they end up with a meaning different from the established concensus.

    sort of a catch 22 situation…god says u can…muslims say you cant…and arabic has breadth and depth in meaning that makes it a poetic and expressive language….but then god makes it easy to interpret it by also telling us…take the BEST meaning when more than one meaning can be found.

    rather cuts right to the chase doesnt it….even if a word such as ‘daraba” has many meanings…and even if the established concensus as determined it means “to beat”…god says take the better meaning…which would be “to separate” and walah!! interpretation accomplished and nobody gets hurt.

    but then again…thats when interpreters have the well being of women in mind and not their own selfish interest and the pleasures of THIS world forefront and center.

    there is nothing mysterious about Arabic…that arabs themselves didnt give it…sort of like an urban legend…gains life and truth the more its repeated. scholars wanted to instill the belief that not just anybody could read and interpret the quran so that they and they alone would have that power. with constant threats of being a kafir or hell fire thrown at the average muslim who dared do such a thing..eventually the average muslim threw up their hands in defeat and abandoned the right to read, interpret, and understand for themselves…and a wholesale abandonment of intellectual thinking was put into play in the muslim world.

    score one for the religious leaders…mission accomplished

  147. Medina…
    ” in Islam we do not have the power of clergymen as it is in Christianity. Every Muslim can study the Quran and understand it his way. So, I am not entitled to what Islamic scholars say, I am entitled to what I understand from the Quran and the context of the verses.”

    Funny that you said that as only this morning I was discussing this aspect of the religions with someone. I think the fact that Islam doesn’t have a “unified system” is both one of it’s greatest strengths but at the same time one of it’s biggest weaknesses..

    In Christianity, let’s say Catholic since I am one, the clergy (priests presiding over individual churches) does not have a great deal of power to make and issue the Christian version of a “fatwa”. The church has a unified base in Rome and “fatwas” (please excuse my using your term but I think it captures what I am trying to express and I mean no disrespect) come from the Vatican. In this way the clergy cannot issue any decree that they like and neither can the bishops etc. There is a sense of unification of doctrine all over the Catholic world wherever one may go. Of course this takes out a bit of the individuality that one may bring to the faith….on the other hand no one is able to say “this is what Catholics believe now” if it suits his particular fancy…I think there is less confusion and more cohesiveness in terms of knowing what is allowed and what isn’t. Whether one follows it is up to one’s conscious and is an individual choice they must make. Even so within Catholicism nowadays there is a bit of wiggle room for personal expression.

    Islam, on the other hand, has no central body and it is as you said up to the individual to interpret it for himself. I think this gives the faith a lot of room for interpretation and individual expression depending on where one may live, culture, background etc…and in one way I think that is lovely about the faith in that it can feel very “personal” to each person. the flip side of that coin is that without the central body “making the rules” it leaves things very open for abuse of the faith…it can be interpreted as strictly or loosely as one chooses with lots of room for crazy fatwas to be issued…personally it feels like it would cause a lot of confusion within the faith where different people are following different interpretations and although there is supposed to be no compulsion in religion there certainly is a lot of disharmony in Islam due to this judgement that the way “they” interpret Islam is the right way…ie: Sunni vs Shia, or Salafi vs Sufis or Ahmaddiya. It leaves a bit of a vacuum and human beings what they are will always try to be superior to someone else…

    So I think that there is good and bad in both…

    In Catholicism a hierarchy that has less room for individuality but unifies Catholics in many ways all over the planet in common beliefs/practices.

    In Islam lots of room for individual expression/interpretation but leaves space for those with bad intentions to interpret Islam in a way that is harmful to the faith and people.

  148. MD,

    Yes I do. I think Islam has a BIG problem and I think it is effecting all of us. I think that Islamic ideology and practice are causing great harm to all of us, including Muslims. I also think that Muslims, even the good nice wonderful ones, are in denial about this and therefore contribute to it.

    So, what do you want me to do. Shut up? Go away? Be silent? Is that right?

    Now if you think there is a problem, any problem – moral, social, econimic, political – I urge you to speak up. If you rfacts are good and your case persuassive, it may help solve a problem. May. Being right or having facts doesn’t mean that you will prevail. In real life, the good guys don’t always win; justice doesn’t always triumph over evil. I also have no problem with you judging me or anybody else.

    I know there are a lotta good Muslims out there. I also know they just can’t seem to be honest about Islam. Time after time they say things that are not true. They make up facts, they ignore verses, they omit things, they make excuses, and they blame others.

    So what are we, non-Muslims, suppossed to think when we see Muslims saying these stupid things? Why should we believe them when they continually say things that are not true? What are we to think when Muslims to quote the “nice” verses in the Quran and hadith, but ignore those that promote hate and violence?

    Wouldn’t a more honest approach be to say … “Yes, the Quran says to protect others, but there are also verses that offend and denigrate non-Muslims” or even “Our prophet did not really nice things but there are also stories of raids, plunder, murder, torture, enslavement, and rape of infidels in his conquest of Arabia”.

    Is that too hard? I mean, that is what is written in the Quran, Hadith, Tabari, Hisham, Kathir, Said, and so on. Non-muslims are not responsible for what is written in these works. Worst yet, all of these not-so-nice things can be justified in the Quran. So who to blame? Allah?

    It is not that it is just “a few Muslims” we are talking about, it is the core of Islam. I am talking about Mohammed, his companions and Islam’s sacred writings, not just a few terrorists out there seeking to do evil. The terrorists and radical would not exist, or better, would not being doing their vile deeds in the name of Islam without the support and teachings found in Islamic theology.

    I think Muslims, especially the good ones, are feeding the monster that will devour many. I don’t think this situation is good for Muslims or infidels. I also think nothing will change. Bad times are coming!

    You take care

  149. @Jay

    So basically you want Muslims to denounce Islam? Why? It sounds to me as if your wish is for a Muslim to say “yeah my religion sucks”.

    Take a look at this part of your comment.

    “I know there are a lotta good XX out there. I also know they just can’t seem to be honest about XX. Time after time they say things that are not true. They make up facts, they ignore verses, they omit things, they make excuses, and they blame others.

    So what are we, non-XX, suppossed to think when we see XX saying these stupid things? Why should we believe them when they continually say things that are not true? What are we to think when XX to quote the “nice” verses in the XX, but ignore those that promote hate and violence? ”

    Replace the XXs with various religions/groups/races/etc and you can pretty much say the same thing about them too. You almost make it sound as if Islam is the root of all evil. In your eyes is it possible Muslims can follow Islam without denouncing it?

    Personally I don’t think any ideology be it religious or political is without its faults.

  150. @Onigiri,

    You are right. Jay comes from a Christian background. If he has read his own Bible he’ll find stuff in there WORSE than The Qur’an ever thought about. Prophets committing incest, sending their friends to get murdered so they can steal their wives. G*d commands the Israelites to slaughter entire peoples, genocide where even the animals are commanded to be killed.

    I know this is where someone says that no one follows these commandments, it isnt true. There are groups in Israel that want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians and use the Bible as their source.

    Muslims are not going to denounce Islam. Trying to get them to do so is just wasting time and energy.

    Anyone interested in moving forward needs to come up with real solutions. Islam must be kept as part of the solution. Just how. That is the question.

    Jay’s “Islam is the problem” makes HIM part of the problem.

  151. #Medina
    ‘that they want to change our culture’ .
    ‘They’ can’t change a culture, as historical research in Wester Europe, development is evolutionary, where most of the agents doesn’t know where the developments end. If you look at Saudi Arabia 50 years ago, how many actors do you think could recognize Saudi today ?.
    Thats why I mentioned the sharp increase in modern illness ( Diabetes ) in Saudi Arabia.
    I also doubt that the society in the long terms can fight the ‘western illness’ of individualism. But there is no doubt that the extraordinaire wealth that the oil sectors creates is helping Saudi resistance to change. But the it’s also true that it is a costly venture.
    I’ll point one thing out, that we discuss a lot in Europe, namely how to finance an aging population.
    Saudi doesn’t have this problem yet, but in 30 years time Saudi will have problems in this regard. And you don’t solve them overnight.

  152. Oni….

    I would like Muslims to standup in the streets, schools and mosques and say “this is wrong” and “We need to talk about this”. I want them to say “Lets end the apostasy laws” and “People have a right to be critical of Islam, Mohammad and the Quran”.

    It won’t happen, because it requires freedom of speech and a concept of independence and equality that is foreign to Islam and Muslims. In small groups they may be able to do this, but only in limited circumstances. In one to one meetings with Muslims, they will often admit that Islam has serious issues. In a group, they are a different species. It is as if they are afraid of each other, or of being seen as heretics, almost unbelievers.

    But then again, Muslims by their theology have put themselves in an “all or nothing situation”. Either Islam is the true message of god and Mohammed is his noble messenger, or it is not. One cannot believe Islam is perfect and yes, by the way, it promotes hate violence and oppression and yes the prophet did some really really evil things to his neighbors, praise be upon him. That doesn’t work very well, does it?

    I guess what I am saying is that Muslims, to be good, faithful Muslims, must choose to ignore the evils in their history and theology. That is my understanding of why Muslims say the things they do when those things are so obviously wrong.

    This problem, as you point out, exists for all religions and beliefs systems, but it seems that it is particularly accute in the case of Islam. Not only that, no other religion has the kind of violent reaction to apostates found in Islam, or much less the legal “Islam is more than a religion” mentality that affects every part of life. To put it simply, Islam suffocates people and denies them of their right to think and act of their own volition.
    .
    AB is right, Muslims will not change. So nothing changes, except we all take a step closer to the abyss.

    You take care, too.

    JK

    PS: I would like to add that I can imagine how hard these things are for a Muslims. It is easy for me to be frank and direct because I have no skin in the matter. Now if I were to lose family, friends, children, job, or life over a few words, maybe I would shut up be do what so many other good people do.

  153. I think Judaism is more than a religion. They have a religiously mandated country.

  154. AB,
    Lets take your statements one line at a time.

    Jay comes from a Christian background.
    * Yes, I do. I have a good background in Christianity, the Bible and World history. I don’t remember, however, ever taking a “christianist” position here.

    If he has read his own Bible he’ll find stuff in there WORSE than The Qur’an ever thought about.
    * Bad stuff, yes, but not sure about the “worst” word. It a Bible rape worse that a Quranic rape? Or a massacre by Israelites worse that a massacre by Mohammad? or maybe Jehovah telling Jews thay can raid, kill and take slaves is bad but Allah telling Muslims to do the same if great! is that it?

    (continued) Prophets committing incest, sending their friends to get murdered so they can steal their wives.
    * I think you mean David stealing wives, not “prophets”. Also wasn’t it David’s sons that did the incest thing?

    G*d commands the Israelites to slaughter entire peoples, genocide where even the animals are commanded to be killed.
    * Yes, the OT does tell the Israelites to wipe out the canaanites. If you keep reading Jehovah keeps telling them they are going to suffer because they didn’t kill them all. Oh yes, killing entire peoples is evil, killing hundreds of men and boys and selling their women and children as slaves is pure virture.

    There are groups in Israel that want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians and use the Bible as their source
    * yes there are, and there are Muslims that use the Quran to religiously cleanse Arabia and oppress non-Muslims, not to mention women.

    So where does that leave us? Since you have pointed out how equally bad Islam and Christianity are, I guess it is time for you to annouce that you have decided to convert to Buddhism. Would not that be the next logical step here? Let me be the first to congratulate you!

    PS: One last thing, I don’t seem to remember the Christians and Jews pretending those things are not in the BIble. Also, even more important, the BIble condemns David, Adam, Jacab, David and so on for their sins. There is a very strong moral component in the Bible (Thou shalt not) that is missing in Islamic theology, which focuses on blind faith rather than sin. Rituals have nothing to do with morality. Nowhere in the Quran does it condemn Mohammad for his evils, much to the contrary.

    As this thread makes clear, Muslims and non-Muslims are world apart. You condemn us, we condemn you. We don’t even talk the same language. Our values are different. Anybody that thinks otherwise is dreaming.

    Muslims don’t want to hear criticism of their religion or dear prophet. They are willing to forfeit freedom of speech and conscience for this – and they pay dearly for it. They should not, however, expect that others will ignore reality so not to hut their feelings.

    This will not end well.

  155. We can’t get into a discussion of which religion, Christianity, Islam or Judaism is worse.
    They are all based on the same premises, and they all three have some pretty nasty evil bits which one can only gloss over with intellectual acrobatics

    The later ones were heavily inspired by the earlier ones. They are basically the same religion so there is no use in starting a discussion about which one is the least moral.

  156. @Jay,

    You make my point for me. You cannot slam Islam and NOT slam Judaism and Christianity. They are all from the same root. If you attack Islam for violent texts, you must also use the same reasoning and attach Jews and Christians.

    I might not agree with Aafke many times, but in this instance her reasoning is solid and consistant.

    As to Buddhism, you show your ignorance of that religion. It is not a dogmatic religion so cannot really compare it to Islam, Christianity or Judaism. If you judge by behavior Buddhists are just as likely to do some really messed up stuff as the rest. Think of all of the wars in Southeast Asia and war crimes, mass murders and the like done by Buddhists.

    Point is? People are people and will do what they will do with or without religion.

    @Sandy,

    It is not clear that Jews are required to have a country. Many Jews actually reject the idea of a Jewish state because they think their religion teaches them that only the messiah (mosaich)sp? can found the state.

  157. I really hate to get into a comparative religion debate but Jay does have a slight point in that Buddhism does not really have any “nasty bits” and the wars and nastiness that happened in SE Asia isn’t related to any Buddhist teachings. So if you look at in the standpoint of say the Christian crusades, the Zionist mandate, and the conquest/expansion of Islam Buddhism doesn’t really have anything equal to those. The only thing I can really think of that might come close is the conquest of King Asoka but I attribute that more to political/territorial than him trying to spread Buddhism by the sword.

    @Jay

    I think Islam like Christianity and Judaism can be interpreted many ways. There are peaceful Muslims who don’t interpret Islam the same way as the conservative Salafi sect. Same way with Christians who choose not to interpret Christianity the same way as Baptist/Evangelical Christians do. I do see a problem in how Muhammad is overly revered/worshiped and I think Muslims put him on too much of a pedestal but then again it’s human nature to want a perfect hero to look up to. I too wish there were more critiques and intellectual debates and HATE the intimidation tactics of certain Muslims use to stop that. What you’ve described as how a group of Muslims behave isn’t really different in how many groups are. You can often get an individual Mormon to talk to you about Mormonisms flaws but getting a group of them to is pretty difficult. That is because Mormons don’t want to be seen as “denying the spirit” or “lacking the spirit” in front of other Mormons. I’m sure it’s something similar with Muslims.

  158. @Abu Sinan
    I wasn’t speaking to whether the Jews should or should not have a state. Merely that they do. And it is a “Jewish” one rather than a secular one.

  159. *Is a Bible rape worse that a Quranic rape? Or a massacre by Israelites worse that a massacre by Mohammad? or maybe Jehovah telling Jews thay can raid, kill and take slaves is bad but Allah telling Muslims to do the same if great! is that it?*

    Yes that’s about it.
    That us how religious people think. It’s actually repeated in the bible, When somebody steals their goats, ”God will punish them!”, but when they stole somebody else’s sheep it was ”Our god is better than your god! We can steal your sheep because we are better than you are!”

    Stuff like that really helped me put religion into it’s proper perspective when I was a child on a christian school.
    Of course the teachers and the minister helped too with their illogic and refusal to answer questions.

  160. It always surprises me to find that well-educated Saudis here (at university) maintain this view that Americans are so “impure”.

    When I first met my Saudi friend, he was shocked to find that I believed in the concept of dating only for the purpose of marriage, the importance of virginity, wore modern but non-revealing clothes (mostly long or three-quarter sleeves), etc.

    One day, out of the blue, he told me that I was the most unique American he’d met. Because of the way I grew up and the beliefs I hold about modesty, morality and spirituality are so similar. I thought it was a nice compliment, until I realized the tragedy in it.

    I’m unique in some ways, yes. But I’m not so different than the majority of Americans. I realized that I was only ‘unique’, because he had an innocent, but deep set perception that the majority of Americans were polar opposites to me. In a short while, he will return to Saudi, work and start a family. When I think of this, it sort of pains me- that he will have come all this way to hang out with hardly anyone outside his comfort zone (other Arabs) and meet and really get to know very few ‘real Americans’ to the point that he will one day subscribe to satellite television and truly believe that what he sees is mostly true (due to a small population of Arab-obsessed American sorority girls that freely ‘entertained’ him and all his buddies when they were in this country).

    It really has everything to do with exposure. Once upon a time, when I was younger and much stupider, I believed that Arabs were mostly violent and untrustworthy (because that’s what tv movies and the American media led me to believe), then I learned a few things about Saudis and believed that they were mostly rich, lazy, anti-Christian and unfair to women. The more exposed I’ve become, through books, poetry, blogs (from everyday Saudis and expats), magazines and academic articles I read, the more I see that my view was inaccurate. Some Arabs are rich, lazy, anti-Christian and unfair to women. Just as, some Americans, are greedy, dishonest, controlling and whorish in manner. An effort has to be made on both sides, to understand what is really true. Too many people today place such trust in the media. It is like the Bible or Quran – you can’t know the truth until you seek it for yourself. Being told something won’t be the same and you can’t trust everyone to tell you much more than they want you to know.

  161. This may be off-topic, but then again, who knows.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/8140200/Cheerleaders-blamed-for-Yemen-beach-volleyball-defeat.html

    I really think that is cheating… Using girls to distract the poor players and make them lose. Obviously the Yemen Muslims are much better Muslims than the Indonesian Muslims, or maybe the Indonesian Muslims are gay Muslims.

    At least one yemeni player fell for the trap. Quote: These girls are very beautiful. With them here, more people will pay attention to beach volleyball,” Mr Mahfoudh added. “If I can, I hope to watch them perform at the next match.”

    No, Mr Mahfoudh, you are a player. You are suppossed to watch the darn ball!

    Anyway, there is nothing immoral about a bikini, unless the woman is fat or old.

    On a more serious note, let me share a post from “Harry’s Place” based upon revelations of a new UK report on extremism. Here goes:

    Muslim-run weekend schools in Britain are teaching that Jews descended from pigs and monkeys, while their textbooks demonstrate with the aid of diagrams how to amputate the limbs of a thief. Welcome to the United Kingdom in 2010, as uncovered by a new Policy Exchange report.

    It would be easy, but mistaken, to accuse the Saudis of funding this fanaticism, as the teaching is based on their old textbooks. But the Saudis have moved on, albeit very slowly, in a positive direction, ditching those textbooks on the way. Meanwhile, Britain creeps slowly backwards.

    While growing up in Essex, I remember going to South Asian weddings that truly lived up to their name. They were often the highlight of our calendar, with fantastic food, live music, traditional dancing and a chance to spot a future bride. Today, I’m lucky if I attend a Muslim wedding that is more than a sexually segregated, monoreligious, glorified feast.

    We are yet to grasp fully that the rise of Islamist extremism in the UK has been spearheaded mainly by youth born and raised in this country. They have often rebelled against the Islam of their parents, reinventing their faith as a political statement. As Quilliam’s latest report on radicalisation shows, extremists operate right through to the top of our educational food chain. Students are more likely to be radicalised at a London university than in lessons at a local madrassa. (end of quote)

    This is what I mean by “it will get worse” and “bad times are coming”. The good Muslims – and I am referring to the posters here – cannot stop the radicals because the good Muslims are out-gunned, and in denial.

    What do you guys think will happen when there is a Mumbai-type assualt on the streets of a European city, or the radicals take over a bus or school and massacre innocents while yelling “Allahu Akbar”. Do you not think it can’t happen? won’t happen?

    For the 5,627th time, I say that Muslims – the good ones – are in denial, and this denial gives the radicals the space to operate. Moderate Muslims need to drink the bitter coffee of reality and decide if they want believe the same standards apply to all, or if islam and Muslims are special and exempt from morals and responsibility. It is that simple.

    One last thing, again, Islam is not what you want it to be or what you imagine it to be, it is what Muslims do and what is written in the Quran and hadith. Stop making up your own fantasy version of islam and rejoin the rest of us on earth, here and now.

    Please please do not write such obtuse things as “because in Islam life of human beings is more precious than anything regardless of their religion….” (as cited above) unless you can provide a quote direct from Allah. If there is any concept like that in the Quran I am not familiar with it.

    You guys take care.

  162. Jay…

    I do think that you have some good points here…Muslims…the ones that are not radicalised and hell bent on destruction are going to have to take a very strong stand against what is happening in Britain and other parts of the world…it might affect non Muslims first and maybe there is not an acute sense that something has to give because it is non Muslims that will be effected first…but it will spread to Muslims themselves and those that enjoy a very nice standard of life, are integrated, women who work and have rights will find themselves back in the 7th century because for these guys moderate Muslims are no less “kuffir” than non Muslims. They will seek to dominate ALL people even mainstream Muslims.

    The extremism is not about Islam IMO… it is about a conquering political agenda that uses Islam as it front man…but it has little to do with following Islam in a peaceful way and everything to do with spreading the ideology of Islamism. I think that Muslims will wake up one day and realize that there is a difference between the two and it might be too late to actually reverse the situation…one of the ways to defeat the infection is recognize the difference between practice of the faith in a peaceful manner and the fundamentalism that seeks to bend all to it’s will. No one…not even Muslims themselves will escape the creep. Muslims cannot be shy about seeking to make a differentiation between the two and not be intimidated by those that will try to shame them and intimidate them by claiming they are unislamic because they reject this fundamentalism. It has no place in the Western world. If one wants to live that way then KSA is available to provide it. The problem I think is that if Muslims…mainstream Muslims don’t take a very hard stand against it non Muslims will be forced into a position to fight against it and that will be a horrible messy awful situation that will pit mainstream muslims against non Muslims when IMO they should both be on the same side actively fighting against this fundamental/radical ideology.

  163. @Jay,

    Not all of us are in denial. Some of us stand up, both here and in the real world. However, with people like you talking the crap you do, it makes our job harder.

    When your entire line is “Islam is the problem” then you cannot be part of the solution and only give aid and comfort to the extremists.

  164. I am always happy to host/introduce both Saudis and Americans (Muslim and non-Muslim) the chance to get together and know one another … and I mean “real Saudis and real Americans” not those that the media would like us to believe are the “real deal.”

  165. ‘Some of us stand up, both here and in the real world’

    Yep, stood up right here and let us know how you could not find ANY common ground with other humans if they did not have a faith or who had the wrong faith (what did your wife call them? breathing machines?).

    Please explain to me how THAT mentality can help solve these so called misunderstandings.

  166. Lynn…*high fives*

  167. @Lynn,

    I remember the post you are referring to. I was actually not surprised to hear such reference. Islam does not acknowledge any people outside the Christian and Jewish faith. Jews and Christians can live peacefully under Islamic control as long as they remain submissive and pay special taxes to the Islamic authority (i.e. accept second class status). People of other faith or no faith are not even guaranteed safety under Islamic rules. These are the facts of how Islam deals with none believers officially.

    Like I always said, I think many Muslims tolerate all faiths and even people with no faith.However, that is despite the religion. Now when you get a Muslim that is trained on the religion and follows it, do not be surprised to hear such intolerant descriptions. Many devote Muslims hold these believes, but only few are unwise enough to share them with none Muslims.

  168. culturewatch, so your Saudi friend considered virginity of prime importance, but had no problem being ”entertained” by girls who didn’t hold to the concept of virginity, losing his own precious virginity against the prescriptions of his own religion and yet still was able to judge American culture and people for bad morals…

    Is that how it went?
    I don’t have any respect for such a guy’s morals, honesty and powers of logic thinking.
    I think such behavior is the pinnacle of immorality.

    Not believing in the concept of virginity being of prime importance is fine by me. Any sexual encounters such a person engages in are not immoral for that person because they hold a different belief system and are not lying or being hypocritical.

    But to consider some invisible friend enforces virginity on people, and judging a culture where a lot of people do not hold to this belief, and then engage in ”immoral” acts yourself, and still judge the girls you took advantage of, and their culture, and probably enforcing restrictive rules on anybody you have power over at home (women)…

    Now that is truly immoral.
    Totally and utterly immoral.

  169. I have to agree with Aafke here Culturewatch. Your Saudi friend is a hypocrite of the first order. He “entertained” himself and then dared judge the culture? He “values” virginity? Not his own if I understand you correctly. At least those girls were honest with themselves. They don’t pretend. According to orthodox Islam he shouldn’t marry a virgin. But I sure bet he will (unless she’s tricked him).

  170. @Lynn,

    One can accept people for what they are without acknowledging the validity of their beliefs. Do you accept my views of religion? Of course you dont.

    So no, I dont accept the validity of Hindu beliefs, pagan beliefs, ect. But that is fine, I am sure they wouldnt accept my beliefs either. As a firm believer in democracy and human rights I firmly believe people have the right to believe the most stupid things they want, worship cows, or worship nothing at all.

    This is NOT the same thing as accepting the validity of these beliefs, just their right to them.

  171. ‘As a firm believer in democracy and human rights I firmly believe people have the right to believe the most stupid things they want, worship cows, or worship nothing at all’

    Well, Abu Sinan, it sounds like you and I have the same beliefs. How about that? Common ground?
    No, not enough eh? You know full well that we were not discussing ‘accepting the validity of someone’s beliefs’. The discussion was about how people could come together and appreciate and respect each other in spite of religious differences and you said you could do that with a Christian or a Jew but could not find ANY common ground with a person of no faith. Perhaps you have changed your stance?

  172. @Lynn,

    I dont see that I have changed. There is always common ground with someone somewhere, usually. Even if I can find little or no religious common ground with someone, I can find common ground in the right to practice or not practice religion. Common ground in the shared belief in human rights.

    This is imporant, because if this is all about finding common religious grounds with people, it then leaves out people, like MoQ, with no religious views at all.

    If someone has a belief in human rights and dignity, I can have common ground with them no matter what our differences are in a religious sense.

    I might not choose to worship a cow or a eight armed godess, but I sure will defend another’s right to do so. Freedom is not just about freedoms for those things you support, rather it is about supporting freedoms even for things you find distasteful.

    I am sure a lot of people find Islam distasteful, find my conversion to Islam distasteful, but as long as they support my right, and other’s rights, to make their own choices without hinderance, there is common ground.

  173. Well, then, it appears that you HAVE changed your stance since that post because at that time even being parents who loved their children wasn’t even enough common ground for you and an atheist.

    I’m very happy and thankful that you have revised your beliefs. I hope you and your family have a very happy Thanksgiving.

  174. @Lynn,

    Maybe you misunderstood what I said then? Maybe I wrote it wrong or was unclear? I have not changed my stance one bit. Unlike others on this blog who have been all over the place in their politics and views on religion, I have been and will remain consistant in my views.

    If one’s views are well thought out and based on sound knowledge and education, nothing short of an epiphany should cause someone to make major changes, let alone a 180 degree turn.

    Either way, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well!

  175. Sometimes one needs that epiphany to realize their well thought out views based on sound knowledge and education are in need of a tweak if not an entire overhaul. All it takes is that final piece of a puzzle to get the whole picture as that one last piece could hold the most relevant bit of information from the whole puzzle….dont knock epiphany’s…some notable historical characters had them…apple falling from a tree ring a bell? etc etc

  176. @MoQ

    Do you think ” a Muslim that is trained on the religion and follows it” also share Abu Sinan’s wife’s opinion that non Christian/Jewish/Islamic people are less than human i.e. “breathing machines”. If that is so then I can really a problem.

  177. @Coolred,

    The problem is you get people pontificating about issues that they held drastically different views on a few years ago. If their thought processes were so wrong back then, I dont think it speaks well for their current ideas and the thought processes used to come up with them now.

    We arent talking, here at least, about unknowns. When it comes to Islam and Muslims, everything that really needs to be known to come up with a sound, educated opinion is out there. Someone who can come up with two completely different conclusions given the same facts has faulty thinking.

    We arent talking dark matter here, we are talking well defined histories and theology. If one can come to a conclusion about Islam that is 180 degrees different that what they originally had, it means that their original, and probably subsequent, ideas were not sound.

    It goes either way, whether one originally was “pro Muslim and Islam” or “anti Muslim and Islam”.

    I am somewhere in the middle of all of this. I have serious issues with the Muslim community and Muslim societies and it can often be very hard to seperate that for the religion. That is coming from a Muslim. I can see why it is impossible for some to not be able to tell where the religion ends and culture takes over.

  178. @onigiriFB,

    I have not heard the use of the same terms. However, many Muslims think only people of the Book (Christian and Jews) are deserving of recognition. Further, as I stated earlier, Islam does not recognize rights of safety for anyone outside those 2 religions (and some followers of minor monotheistic religions like Sabians).

    I know many people try to minimize the role of dogma in influencing people’s prejudices, intolerance and in some cases even hostility. However, the repeat of verses in the Quran and the stories in Hadiths, that describe none believers with hostile names, orders to fight, description of how god will treat them in the after life, how God has cursed them, how they are not pure at heart, etc. do have an impact on normal people.

    Muslims need to face up to this type of dogma. I have been debating this for some time and I do agree with J on at least that point. The defense that all these verses are situational or metaphoric, etc. just does not work. For some Muslims these words are real (as you have witnessed in that infamous post). Without acceptance that the Dogma is hostile, Muslims will never solve these issues.

  179. I have to laugh. I get accused of beating a dead horse, but this “infamous post” done on another blog, has been mentioned numerous times here and dozens of times on multiple threads, even after the blog owne here requested that things that happened on other blogs not be mentioned here. This request by the blog owner was made in reference to this very event.

    There is a definition of “beating a dead horse” in a book somewhere, and this topic is it.

  180. Despite my name, I am American Muslimah.

    I have a Saudi friend that I have been trying help get to America to go to college. He is a devout Muslim, but sick of the rule about Women not driving and things like that. He has 4 sisters and a Mother, and he is the only driver. Yallah! Still, he will admit that it is dangerous to drive in KSA.

    So, he and I have talked much and we agree that it is only those who really don’t know that think the US is immoral. If the US is so immoral, then why do Saudis want to come here. Stay home, then.

    Who do you think pays for you to come to the US to attend College? It is the US. How is it that you feel so free to criticise us but still take our money.

    Every time I see an American girl convert to Islam, I tell them to not date a guy from KSA. They will take advantage of you and then throw you away. How about it guys, does that feel fair?

    Hala

  181. @Hala,

    When you say “Who do you think pays for you to come to the US to attend College” are you saying that the US pays for the Saudi student’s scholarships?

    I agree with everything else you say, but the Saudi scholarships, both the tuition and the per diem the students are paid, are funded solely by the Saudi government.

  182. moq…

    I have argued in the past that Muslims need to ignore the nasty bits of the koran. The bible has many as well and people(for the most part) live peacefully and do not try to force others to their will and don’t practice or focus on the nasty bits…it has allowed them to function among each other and other faiths fairly well. Why can’t Muslims take the same stance? That it was meant for another time and place and has absolutely no relevance to today. Perhaps I am naive, but why can’t muslims take the same path?

  183. @MoQ

    So is the teachings that non book people are not pure of heart etc in the Quran or in the hadiths? I’m wondering because Muslims and Thai Buddhist peacefully coexisted for centuries but in the last 10 years there have been a lot of violence initiated by Muslims in southern Thailand. The only thing that makes sense is if there is a some conservative interpretation that’s being taught nowadays that’s different from before. It’s not very hard to kill non Muslims if they are taught that non book people are less then human beings. It reminds me of how people used to think of African Americans as animals thus not deserving of respect or rights.

  184. @oby,

    I think you have a valid question. I think someone with better writing talent than mine can fill a book on this topic. I will try to provide my thoughts:

    – I do not think Christians have moved away completely from literal interpretation and even hostile attitude against others. Check out the film “Jesus Camp” and you will get an idea of what the radicals are trying to push on kids.
    – I think you are judging mostly by Western Christian standards. If you go to places like Africa, you will find that there is more radical teaching of Christianity. Some American Evangelical Christian groups are supporting a more hostile form of Christianity with their missionary dollars. They basically cannot get away with it at home, so they are finding fertile grounds in Africa. This is similar to what Wahabbi Saudis are doing with their money, although the volume and severity has not reached the same level.
    – Most Western Christians live in secular democratic countries where incomes are high. Without the pressures of living with the third world problems, it is easier to accept a none hostile message. Higher levels of education also allow people to understand the advantages of co-existence.
    – You can easily divide the Christian bible into old testament and new testament. Most of the nasty bits are in the old testament and can easily be dismissed with the later examples of forgiveness and peace of Jesus’s example. Islam has the opposite order. Muslims and their prophet where peaceful at the start and became more intolerant as they became more powerful.
    – The concept of emulation exists in both Christianity and Islam. Christians that ask “what will Jesus do?”, may find good peaceful examples like turn the other cheek. Now when Muslim want to emulate their prophet, they will find examples of war, enslavement, hostility, etc.
    – The Christian new testament is inspired by God, it is not necessarily sent directly word for word to a prophet. This allows for flexibility in acceptance of certain specifics. Quran was directly sent to a prophet through an angel. Every word of it is the absolute word from God. It is also supposed to apply for all times and all places. Any rejection of any word of it, even in a mild way will be considered apostasy punishable by death in this life and hell fire in the after life. Muslims simply cannot even contemplate questioning it. Even thinking about it will send a true believer into hell. So even if a thought crossed a person’s mind, he will quickly repent and try to get these thoughts off his/her mind. Questioning the Quran is a no starter, sort of speak.

    I think there are many other reasons for this difference including historic and theological, but I will stop here before this comment gets way too long.

  185. @OnigiriFB,

    It exists in both.

    Regarding the changes in Thailand, what you are describing is occurring all across the world where there is a Muslim majority or a significant Muslim minority (ex. China, Indonesia, Chechnya, Africa, Europe, etc.). I think most of these people co-existed peacefully in the past, because they were not dogmatic. As they did not have the same resources to school them properly on Islam.

    Recently, there has been a change through what is termed Al-Sahwah Al-Isamiah (Islamic awakening). This is a process where Muslims (usually ultra conservative) are teaching the Islamic world on the Dogma of the religion (i.e. returning them to the real Islam, from their ignorance). So when you look at a place like Thailand, where Muslims went through their daily life co existing and only paid attention to Islam as a spiritual religion where they focused on praying to their God and performing rituals to please him. Now they are being educated about the philosophy of Islam, Shariia, not accepting living under the rules of the none believers, the supremacy of their religion, etc.

    A reasonable question may be can’t the peaceful Muslims win out in converting the others to their peaceful way of life? The reason is very simple, it is the dogma. When these discussions turn into academic debates between the 2 sides, the more conservative win every time. There is just too much dogma supporting the side that opts for supremacy of Islam over none believers. It is not even a contest. So the more Muslims learn about their religion and want to follow it, the more issues will arise like the ones in Thailand.

  186. so Moq…the way you describe Islam dogma it seems as if Jay is on to something in that there will be a huge clash at some point. The thing that is very worrisome to me is that this dogmatic Islam is so backward and unable to accept any sort of “advancement”…it fees as if a desolate black cloud is descending over all and we are destined to revisit the Dark ages and lose all the advancements that the world has made…

  187. @Oby,

    I do agree with J on some of his thoughts. However, I go farther and believe that all 3 Abrahamic religions have an apocalyptic Dogma. The believers in the literal books are moving us into a clash between the followers. They believe in these prophesies, which they believe cannot be avoided and their side will be the winner because of their version of God is behind them. This may turn out to be a self fulfilling prophesy(s), if we do not rid the world of dogmatic thinking.

    So in short, I think all 3 religions have a dark dogma. Islam just happens to be the leader at this time in lining up the masses behind its version.

  188. Nah, no worries Oby. We’ll all be nuked before that could happen.

  189. Moq…

    I do agree that the New testament was all about bringing a new peaceful and loving era thru Jesus…Maybe that is why the West has a “get along” sort of philosophy…I don’t know…certainly the fact that I am Christian and adhere to Christian principles guides my life…I am much more likely to forgive than to have an eye for an eye attitude even when I have been wronged as it was the way I was raised…give people another chance etc…It seems to be reflected in our laws to a degree…so perhaps Christianity does guide the west in an obtuse way.

    Fundamentalism is a dangerous force no matter who pushes it.

    You are right that the bible is inspired by God rather than having been revealed to a prophet. We understand that people wrote it and as such there is the possibility that it might have been influenced by man…although as I wrote here before there are those like my friend who took it verbatim…which I found a little scary. If muslims have to take the quran as the absolute word of god what happened during the Golden era when they could debate and question?

    If situations like the one in Thailand are the result of people becoming more dogmatic it seems that there is not a solution to the situation other than have muslim part of the world and non Muslim parts of the world. So the idea that multiple religions can live with Muslims is not a possibility if one carries that idea to the extreme…If it is all about domination then the end result is major conflict…finally why then do some muslims see the west as more islamic than islamic countries if it is about domination, over non muslims and women, etc.

    What do you make of the situation in KSA where it seems as if they are trying to modernize and clamp down on preachers preaching hate and intolerance?

  190. I do agree that all three have an apocalyptic view of the world…to some degree…There are an awful lot of Jews, Christians and Muslims in the world who are not in a big hurry to get to heaven and are quite content to wait patiently for the time to revel itself… all of the fundamentalists of every stripe are a pain in the a**. Why should I have to hurry to heaven wants to get there…off yourself if you are in such a hurry but don’t take us with you!

  191. @Oby,

    ” If muslims have to take the quran as the absolute word of god what happened during the Golden era when they could debate and question?”

    There is no evidence that Muslims were able to Question the Quran during that period.

    “What do you make of the situation in KSA where it seems as if they are trying to modernize and clamp down on preachers preaching hate and intolerance?”

    Top reasons for this:

    – Security issues and control: The farther extremes of the clerics have encouraged decent against the royal family. It is much better to focus control of the religion using a handful of appointed clerics who have aligned interest with the government.
    – Financial interest of prices and elites: Ultra conservative religious ideology is just not good for business. If you prohibit too many things, you put a huge dent into consumer markets. With more business savey pri

  192. Opps I hit post comment too early by mistake..

    Here is the continuation..

    With more business savvy princes gaining influence over the power centers, they are able to move the policies to a less conservative stance.
    – External pressure: the US and other Western nations have been pressuring Saudi to mange its religious zealots. Such management cannot occur if you have loose control over them.

  193. It is interesting but many we think the reverse, in the West marry a 10 year old is against the Law, seeing Saudis and others drunk with call girls in London was a sorry sight.
    Forcing to marry a daugthers with a cousins is inmoral in most places in the West as is to circumcise females.
    So it is what we do not where we were born that makes us inmoral.
    And any woman that has attended female parties in this countries knows that nothing is private when it comes to talk about sex.

  194. Oby, christians don’t follow the nasty bits in the bible because in the west they live in secular countries where the church cannot push the nasty bits too much. Also too many people have evolved above the nasty bits of religion, and too many have evolved out of religion as well.
    If the Churches want to keep their believers, they will have to be more tolerant.
    But you see with the Catholic church that the current pope is moving backwards, with women’s rights, and tolerance. He also actively protects childmolesting priests. This has resulted in many Catholics leaving the church or refusing to pay thithes.

    But Moq is correct in that where they are not checked christians try to get people to conform to their nasty version in other countries.
    I have the feeling that religions all over the place are trying to get more grip and suppress their flocks more, I seem to see a backwards trend everywhere.

    ”It’s in the bible” is a pretty strong argument in christiantiy, although it can be argued against unlike what’s written in the quran, yet many christians choose to take the bible literal too.
    Look at creationists.

    The christian church really isn’t safe when it comes to oppression, it’s only the people themselves which stop the church from turning evil.
    Muslims do not stop Islam from it’s evil bits. Moderate muslims do not act or condemn when other Muslims do atrocious acts, and also, their own dogma wins out because it orders muslims to strike against non-muslims, keep women covered and at second place to men, etc. it’s mostly Muslims from the west who use the religious metaphor which they have been used to because the Christians have been using it for so long.

    All the Abrahamic religions wallow in a desire for the ”end of days”, because then it would prove that they are the righteous and everybody else will burn in hell and they would love to bring it about themselves.
    That’s why NO religiously based nation should have access to nuclear weapons. They cannot be trusted to act responsibly and rationally.

  195. @Jay,

    Its amazing people like Jay paint 1.55 billion Muslims with single brush. Becoz of his hatred, he is blind to see that a lots of Muslims stand against fanatic terrorists.

    He said one example, if terrorists capture non-Muslim passengers in a bus and Mumbai like incident. R u ignorant that its happening everyday in Pakistan, Afghanistan? Victims in Afghanistan and Pakistan are non-Muslims? Then how cn u say that Non-Muslim will be first victims? Maximum number of victims of Taliban or other fanatic terrorists are Muslims and maximum of number of victims of Bush also Muslims.

    In fact all these so called Islamic terroism floated exponentially since 2 decades due to inhumane acts of US. Taliban were trained by US for its selfish political agenda. Taliban or Al-Qaida have not been since the start of Islam 1400 years back.

    And I feel pity that u dnt even know that 25% of victims in Mumbai incident were Muslims.

    As said by Anebu, becoz of people like u its difficult to fight against fanatic Muslims like Taliban. Becoz there are section of people who level every other Muslims in the category of Taliban.

    What u want Muslims to do when u are blind the stands of Muslims against extermism. Ur hypocrisy forces u not see Muslims stand against injustice and fanatic activities:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=Fatwa+against+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

    When did u accept that Muslims stand against fanatism/terrorism? Muslims are conducting conference, issuing fatwa againsts terrorists. R these fatwas, conferences sign of deniel or supporting terrorism? Its sick that people like u like to be blind.

    What u do is to use War-related Quranic verses/Hadith verses as tool to bash Islam and Muslims, ignoring numbers of peaceful verses. See sleep in bed room, read in reading room, cook in kitchen. If u try to cook in toilet, it will be senseless. Do right things at right place. Use right rulings as right place and situation. Dont mixup things to suit ur needs.

    Segregate bad and good people with the boundary of justice but dont segregate people based on religion

  196. @MoQ,

    I think u have completely misunderstood. Its wrong to say that Islamic country doesnt accept other than Christian/Jews? In Malaysia, Indonesia, maximum minority is budhists and Hindus. Who says non Muslims have to pay tax? U have to pay tax for protection only WHEN u dont lilke to join the Army of the country. Do Saudi, Dubai, Oman, Bahrin take tax from non Muslims? And does Malaysia take?

    Suggests you to read on Human rights in Islam:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/private/cmje/issues/more_issues/more_issues/jerusalem_and_pluralism_issues/Human_Rights_in_Islam.pdf

    U can read other writings on the same site.

  197. @Md. Azad Ali Shah,

    I think you should be the one focused on reading what I write better.

    I said Islam does not guarantee the safety of none Jews and Christians. NOT modern countries.

    Of course there are countries like Indonesia that have some secular laws which allow none Muslims to live in the country. It is my point actually that Muslims are more tolerant the more they stay away from implementing Islamic rules and the less they follow the religion. A good example of that are secular laws that allow others to be part of a a country like Indonesia. However, that peaceful co-existence even in Indonesia is under threat as Muslims become more dogmatic.

    Please understand the argument first, before claiming others are ignorant.

    Regarding the paper you linked. Yes sounds like a nice paper. however, it ignores the 100’s of Verses in the Quran which promises all none believers with hell fire, asks believers to convert them through military power, etc. It also ignores some of the Nasty acts of Islam, such as the Example set by the treatment of Banu Quraizah. Yes the paper talks about how Muslins should give shelter to fighters from the other side that seek it. However, when you have a tribe, which surrenders then all its Men get executed and women and children are enslaved, these words do not mean a thing.

    The point Azad is, any researcher can write a nice peaceful paper such as the one you linked. However, when these matters are debated, the radicals win, because the Dogma supports their views.

  198. Aafke…

    I completely agree with you that all religions but generally the Abrahamic ones, if not curtailed by secular governments will get out of control and become more fundamentalist…look at Europe several hundred years ago. I don’t think that Islam corners the market on fundamentalism…Moq was right…when I was speaking of Christians getting along I was thinking about the West…Africa is embroiled I know. For me one of the problems or reasons for religion centuries ago was it was used as a form of government (not just Islam), a way to keep people in line through, in many cases, fear and intimidation before more sophisticated governments were developed. Look in the West how the influence of religion in terms of fear and intimidation has gone down. Rather than ruling with an iron fist,it now works into our lives peacefully as a guide rather than THE way of law. But in Africa where the governments are weak/corrupt and poverty is high it is a much stronger influence in terms of being absolute. (islam as well).

    For me the thing that scares me about fundamentalist Islam more than fundamentalist Christianity (which scares me plenty by itself) is that in F.C. it is not encoded in the Bible (new testament) about all the awful ways to punish people, and the New Testament does not focus so relentlessly on hellfire and boiling entrails etc. It is more about turning the other cheek etc. It also does not have a “law” that Christians are supposed to follow to be good Christians…more of the Golden rule…and even then technically you are supposed to do unto others as you would have them do unto you…that does not apply ONLY to Christians…it is meant for all people. But Islam has Sharia which is god’s law and the law that many consider the only one that counts and it applies to Muslims…in Christianity there is no specified law that should come before a country’s law so to be a Christian and follow a secular government or any other government is not a conflict. It is more about personal conduct rather than following a law that is laid out to the benefit of Christians like Sharia is for Muslims…Jesus said “give unto Cesar what is Cesar’s but give unto God what is God’s”. Meaning one can live in any government and be a Christian…we don’t have an encoded law. Old Testament is a different story…But Sharia or should I say the way everyone applies it, favors male muslims and that is a problem and very worrisome for me.

  199. @MoQ,

    I didnt say u are ignorant but u spread worng things. U said Islamic country impose tax on non-Muslims. Tell me one Muslim country which does that out of 50+ Muslim countries? For ur info Malaysia is also Sharia law for Muslims and non-Sharia law for non-Muslims. What people do is different from what religions say. Where Islam says to convert forcefully? Off course Islam says agaisnt idol worshipping but never say to convert forcefully. Same is thing is said in Bible (Bible says idol worshppers will go to hell. Isnt it?). The above link I showed doesnt contain unnecessary and out of context verses because the article is saying abt normal life but not battle field life. To decide to put in hell or heaven is God’s decision. But God doesnt give right to any1 to convert forcefully or to torture any1. There is no compulsion in religion in Islam.

    a) I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship.
    And I will not worship that which you have been wont to worship, Nor will you
    worship that which I worship, So you be your Way, and to me mine.(109:1-6)

    b) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever
    rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the mosttrustworthy hand-hold,
    that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth allthings.(2:256)

    Slavery was part of the time, it was not introduced by Islam. Islam tried to control it step by step. Its Islam which forced to give right to slaves of war, before there was no right at all. If u want in details let me know. Come to debate page.

    To apply QUranic verses out of context without seeing terms and conditions and situations is rape of the verses to suit personal needs.

    So, plz re-read what u said. Misuse of relgion is for personal use or political gain or many fail to interpret in context… for that religioous teaching is not to be blamed.

  200. @Oby,

    THere is shariah law for Muslims in Singapore (one of the most peaceful and advanced Non-Muslim country in world), Brunei, Malaysia. There is no killing, torturing non-Muslims there, there is no bombing too. But on the other hand, we see opposite in Afghanistan.

    So, it depends on what version of Islam one follows – God’s rule or his own misinterpreted rule. In between, Islam is not a blanket rule. Any Islamic law is not imposed on non-Muslims. Even Muslims there are 3 categeroies of Islamic law:

    1) Compulsory – that u need to follow

    2) Recommende but not compulsory

    3) Desirable but free to ignore

    For example praying 5 times prayer is compulsory and drinking is completely no no (but u cant be forced, God will decide his fate after death). Death punishment for rape is recommended but not compulsory. Wash ur hands before eating is desirable. None of the Islamic law is applicable for non-Muslims.

  201. I am an American who currently lives in Riyadh.

    As a person involved in education at the university level here in the Kingdom, I have been able to get to know how Saudi Arabian people very well. My students are, for the most part, very good men. I have really enjoyed my time here.

    There are many admirable things in Saudi society, but I think that we all must admit that they have a long way to go. Unfortunately, most Saudis have very limited experiences and exposure to the outside world. Education levels are not very high relative to the size of the population. They are often arrogant and think they are better than everyone else, when in fact the vast majority of the world view them in just the opposite way. I am continually amazed at how non-Saudi Arabs look down on Saudis, while the Saudi’s think they are better.

    There is tremendous hypocrisy in this country. I have been propositioned for homosexual encounters by Saudi men. (I am heterosexual and married.) Saudi boys and girls go around finding ways to hook up using bluetooth in shopping malls, dropping phone numbers on the floor, and joining groups of women while pretending to be a family member. Saudi men have tons of porn on their smart phones. When I drive in my car with my wife, Saudi men stare at her and try to take pictures (wow, that must be very Islamic, right?). My friends who work in hospitals in the Kingdom have told me incredible stories of children out of wedlock, family members shooting each other, etc. All of this does not even begin to scratch the surface and all very true. We have not even touched on business ethics.

    Saudi Arabia is no religious utopia filled with ultra moral people. On the contrary, it is a country filled with people who have an imperfect human nature. Praying five times a day does not change that point. It is like anywhere else, but the only difference is that there are social controls that take everything underground where things become more deviant. There are very good people and very bad people, with a large number somewhere in between, in Saudi Arabia..

    America is filled with many devout Muslims and Christians that live very moral lives. Saudis can think whatever they want of America. But there is a fact that they most reckon with. If America was such a terrible place, why do so many people desire to be an American citizen? Why do so many people seek to come to America to avoid religious and political persecution? Why do we have the best universities in the world that Saudis dream of attending?

    I don’t see many innovative technological advances come from Saudi Arabia these days. Do you?

    When the oil wells run dry, it will be a very sad day. Back to riding camels. The society does not have the education or mentality to be able to develop a strong non-oil dependent economy. That is a fact and everyone knows it.

  202. @Azad,

    I am going to take your points 1 at a time:

    – “U said Islamic country impose tax on non-Muslims.”
    For the second time, find where I said country. This argument is a strawman. Look it up under logical fallacies.

    – “Where Islam says to convert forcefully? ”
    “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” Quran (8:39) along many others verses and hadith. There is also the history of early Islam where people are invaded and converted. That ranged from the Arabic peninsula to the fertile crescent and Egypt. You cannot deny early Islam history as it sets the example of later Muslims.

    – “Same is thing is said in Bible (Bible says idol worshppers will go to hell. Isnt it?).’
    Bringing arguments from the bible is invalid. Both the Quran and the Bible are violent books that teach intolerance in certain parts. The argument of their book is bad so it is OK for mine to be the same just does not work.

    – Regarding the verse you reference in A and B. Those were replaced with other verses which called for fighting at later times. The one in A is from Surat al Kaferon which was in Mecca when the prophet was weak. The second verse was from Al-Baqarah, which is the earliest set of verses in medina, when he was still consolidating his powers over the locals. Now when the prophet got stronger, these changed to more unforgiving words. You need to read the Quran in chronological order to get the effect and in the right context. If you want to get more sophisticated also try to link all these Quranic verses to historic events from Hadith, which describes all the details of the raids by Muslims. You also have to contend against the process of abrogation or accept that the Quran is contradictory.

    – Regarding Slavery, Islam did not come up with anything new in regulating slavery. The romans actually had better rules that allowed Slaves to live independently. Read some history please. Additionally, I will accept the idea that slavery existed and early Muslims just followed the traditions of the time. This will imply that the prophet of Islam participated in it and was able to take booty of war including young slave women similar to any warlord of the time. However, you claim that your prophet is the best man that walked on the face of the earth and he is the ultimate example for humanity. I think a person that enslaves people and has sex with a captured woman at the same night her father and husband were killed by his army, does not pass the lowest standard of morality. In today’s world we call these things murder, forceful capture, and rape. However, I am only trying to point to you proper morality.

    Azad the issue is not Muslims as I have always repeated here. The issue is that people want to follow the dogma of a warlord from the 7th century. If you leave these things in the dark pages of history, you will never hear 1 argument for me.

  203. @Azad,

    Regarding Singapore, the law of the country is based on English common law. Courts even look for precedence in cases from the English system and other Commonwealth countries. It is a country which essentially has a secular constitution with the exception of some provisions for Islam.

    Actually that is the area where the country becomes less tolerant, by introducing laws such as the following:

    – All Malays are assumed to be Muslim by Birth
    – Muslims are not allowed to convert to other religions
    – Shariia laws are creeping into the system, making it harder for minorities
    – etc.

    So here again is a country that has traditionally been tolerant and religion is creeping in trying to separate the people who co-existed.

    I can make similar arguments about the other countries that you mentioned.

    Regarding Malysia,, I guess you are not up on news of Church burnings and the controversy where Muslims are so offended by Christians using the word Allah, that they want to make a law banning them form using the word.

    Azad, I know you want your religion to be thought of as peaceful and tolerant, but please look around you and you will notice that the radicals are winning and increasing in numbers everywhere. Again, this is not a coincident, they have support from the religious Dogma.

  204. About ”digging old cows out of the ditch”
    I don’t agree that we can’t remember important milestones even if they happened some time ago. I think it’s perfectly valid to come back to ”the Girl of Qatif” who was punished with torture and prison for being raped, or the girls from Mecca who were chased back into a burning school to die because they were not wearing the abaya.
    Or the catholic church which has been protecting child molesting priests for years.
    It’s valid because these things are still in process, or liable to happen now or on the immediate future.

    And the same goes for the old post under discussion.
    I think it is not only a very good proof of what Muslims really think of non-muslims, it is also important to note that the comment about non-muslims/christians/jews not even being human, came from a person who we thought we knew as being a ”moderate” muslim, somebody who was educated in America, lived in America, and had had her share of Saudi injustice.

    Never the less, it seems the lessons of the inferiority of non-muslims are deep enough to consider people who are not ”of the book” to be non-human

    I have been told before by friends from Saudi Arabia that this is what they are being taught there. But that they keep it very much secret when talking to us.
    This is a stark reminder of what Muslims really may be thinking of non-muslims, even when they pose as ”moderate” ”normal” ”friendly” and ”integrated”.

    This was a very rare insight in the true, non-edited thought process of a Muslim person, and therefore I think we should remember and learn from it.

  205. I have borrowed this link from SGIME which she had posted from a Muslim blogger in which the Muslim woman considered herself a moderate Muslim and yet in Holland she is surrounded by conservative Muslims as evidently they are the majority type there according to the writer. She said n essence even though she knew better, because she was surrounded by fundamentalists/conservatives she herself started to deny her own feelings of moderate Islam to better fit in and it caused her great consternation…she ultimately got her footing but how many are not like this woman and don’t maintain their moderation and become so rigid and intolerant? Great example of how fundamental creep can be so subtle that even a moderate muslimah herself…an educated one to boot…started to fall into the dogmatic way of thinking! It really seems to support what we have been saying…it supports Moq’s point…

    http://sandgetsinmyeyes.blogspot.com/2010/11/guest-post-change.html

  206. SGIME is now unfortunately blocked in Saudi, so I couldn’t get to this link. Regarding some of the comments about Muslim/non-Muslim interaction, I don’t know if any countries with Sharia law have a separate tax system for non-Muslims, but Saudi does have a Diyya (blood money) compensation system that is unequal.

  207. californiadreamin, blocking of websites is an opportunity to get more savvy with proxies.
    Nobody can really block the internet.

  208. Californiadreamin, you can read Sara’s post at her own website instead of SGIME.

    http://cairolusakaamsterdam.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/change/

  209. Ah, so beating a dead horse is okay as long as it suits your agenda. I’ll have to remember that one next time I am accused of doing the same. “It is in my agenda to do so, therefor it is okay”.

    Still doesnt answer the question as to why someone’s thought process can be so skewed they can move their position on a static issue 180 degrees in the space of a few days or weeks.

    The problem is some people believe in whatever their friends of the moment believe. If the friends are Muslims, Islam and Muslims are okay, if the friends dont like Islam or any religion, then they are then atheist and anti religion.

    Hum……..I’d like to see what happens to such a person once they run into the Hare Krishas! lol

  210. The question was why is the west viewed as so immoral? Well, a short answer would be that one has to only look to reality shows such as “Dancing with the Stars”, “So You Think You Can Dance”, “Moment of Truth” to learn how sexuality is glorified. Something personal and beautiful is exploited in front of millions of people world wide. Unconcsciously one is molested and abused in such shameless manner again and again. Female bodies are so abused in western adverts and movies that it has become common place so much so that women themselves have become numb to it. Yes emphasis is put on female body. Why is it only female body that is shredded apart on every media? Women are slaves to the man’s world. Is it their subconscious guilt that makes them drag muslim women to their level of shamelessness? One has to comtemplate. Take a good look. Their slogans that no one forces women to behave in such a way is testimony to the fact that these women have become numb to any feelings of shame. To show it all is something to take pride in.

    The annual beauty contests are another arena for this display of sexualtiy, making the women go deeper and deeper into the sinful world. Where will this lead to? Pornograpghy? Yes and where else? No one can tell what is more and how deep this immorality will go.

    So why is the west viewed so immoral? It is not a difficult question. No one can deny it. This is what the world sees and comes to accept as the western world. While the reality maybe different on individual level, the world only sees what it sees.

  211. Sarah, I have only seen tidbits of Dancing with the Stars but I have not seen the others that you show as examples. But, I have to wonder why YOU would watch these things if ‘Unconcsciously one is molested and abused in such shameless manner again and again.’

    I thought we already had our answer the question. The ‘West’ is viewed as so immoral because the ‘West’ has a different definition of morality. Why should we care if, out of your ignorance of the reality of our society, you think that we are immoral when well documented FACTS tell us that ‘you’ are the bottom on the morality scale with the lack of human rights, exploitation of the vulnerable and poor (maid/slaves), the use of wasta, bribery and other corruption etc? Not to mention all the religiously mandated sins against humanity already discussed above.

  212. Beauty pagents are something that I would NEVER want my child to be involved with for reasons that have nothing to do with sexuality but rather more about a healthy body image and self acceptance. But, I think it’s funny that you bring that up considering that Miss USA is a Muslim originally from the EAST. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/2010/05/16/2010-05-16_miss_michigan_rima_fakih_becomes_first_arabamerican_to_win_miss_usa_pageant.html

    But that’s right, you probably don’t consider her a Muslim anyway since her family is Shia. My bad!

  213. How can anyone ‘beat a dead horse’ when there is no evidence that the horse is DEAD?!

    Also, what the heck is so horrible about someone changing their opinions on something after being properly educated? I find rather distasteful when, out of arrogance, someone will stubbornly hang on to old opinions in spite of all the proper education!

  214. Sarah,,,

    the reason these shows are on is because people WATCH them. I am pretty sure if they are broadcast in KSA Muslims there, in the most holy land, will watch them too..if you CONSUME trash does that not make you participating in it mentally as well? (you in the general sense). Yet after watching everyone will cluck their tongues and say tsk tsk….how shameful the West is yet unless they themselves consume it (watch it) how would they know?

    But guess what? There is a surefire cure for the trash on TV that pollutes your world…are you ready? CHANGE THE CHANNEL! Refuse to buy it by watching it…shut the TV off…watch the Discovery channel instead. It is a wonderful cure and works phenomenally well in my house.

  215. I don’t have a tv…
    What’s so indecent about ”dancing with the stars”??? I thought it was about people learning to dance?
    I’ve seen the equivalent on BBC, looked really interesting. Made me want to learn how to dance too.

    Sarah, I prefer to see people badly and inelegantly dressed, to having women imprisoned and losing their health in swathes of black cloth. And even worse than that make 8 year old girls wear this sexual garb and make it clear to them and the outside world that they are ready for sex.
    And therefore have to be covered.

    Of all the immoral things one can do I think that seeing children as sexual objects, selling children to pedophiles and officially allowing such crimes to humanity are the most immoral.

    Closely followed by denying women their humanity, their intelligence and strength, and officially proclaiming they are ”deficient” by default and by some god’s will.

  216. Talk about watching trash… Don’t countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have the highest worldwide number of Google searches on the most revolting deviant sexual practices?
    I think one should be very happy if men limit themselves to ”dancing with the stars” instead of some of the search terms the devout Saudis and Pakistanis use on Google…

  217. @ Sarah,
    Ditto what Aafke said.

  218. I would rather watch two people dancing..then watch a person being stoned, lashed, or beheaded for whatever reason.

  219. @ Sarah, you write:
    ”Female bodies are so abused in western adverts and movies that it has become common place so much so that women themselves have become numb to it. ”

    You must be joking.

    Islam abuses womens bodies far far more. If your body is controlled by others it is a greater abuse.
    If your mind is being controlled by others it is the greatest abuse.

    Go to my blog and read and watch the videos.
    Islam does things to women’s bodies which is far worse than only looking at them.
    selling, beating, burning, cutting, maiming, raping and murdering.
    This is allowed to be done to women’s bodies in Islamic countrys today.

  220. Sometimes people enter into a religion, or convert, because they have NOT taken the time to really study it and learn what lurks in every dark little corner or behind every firmly locked door…..they read all the surface stuff…allt the nicely presented little pamphlets that Muslims and mosques are so happy to hand out…they read all those wonderful conversion stories and are hooked by the wonderfulness and peace of it all….then after converting they live in a state of bliss for awhile that they have found the ONE true answer and life is good…but then…being driven to know ever more about that religion…they start reading, searching, listening, watching, thinking, feeling, in other words, discovering exactly what they have converted into…the truth unvarnished…and this is when that epiphany occurs.

    This is when one discovers converting in haste means repenting in leisure..so to speak.

    Not every bad thing one learns about Islam comes from nonMuslims…some of it, alot of it, comes from just acquiring a better understanding of the Quran, of reading reading and reading everything one can get their hands on…and. from Muslims themselves. who are always happily willing to defend the undefendable with words such as…you must hate Islam if u dont believe this…or even better…you must not have been that strong in your deen in the first place if you dont believe in it now.

    Knowledge is a powerful thing…the more you have…the more your opinions and beliefs are likely to change. Enlightenment is generally a good thing.

  221. Look, the reason one finds it difficult to discuss anthing here is that people tend to take it personally. Or try to reverse it by saying “so what, in your society it is worse”.

    I have answered the blog question. What I was trying to say is that th media PORTRAYS the west as immoral with such trash shows. I excepted the responses beforehand and I very much expected someone to say “Then why do you watch it”. it is not a matter of WHO watches it.(BTW, I don’t have a tv either), It is the fact that they MAKE these kind of useless trash shows that makes one to think about their morality or lack of it. It is the shamlessness that the public is subjected to again and again. There is no denying how the weatern youth so want to imitate these “stars” so as a result indecency spills to the public.

    I hope you can understand what I am saying here. The point is – that is how the west is seen here. It is how it is displayed to us.

    In the meantime, all those who want to contribute to saving the woman – there is an Arab woman conference to be in held in Lebanon in the coming days. Maybe you if serious in your efforts to help the tortured women, think about attending or contributing in a postive way or even publicize it.

  222. Since I have never watched the shows that are being discussed I want to ask those who have what exactly is so shameful about it? What is the definition of shame? Modesty? Immoral?

  223. Sarah, one of the problems is the word ‘immoral’ . In the west in general the concept of what is moral is defined by the public, and not by the church ( even if churches of course have the right to condemn behavior) via legislation. And its clear that the borders for ‘immoral’ behavior has changed rather rapidly. Just think that many, many people and institutions declared The Beatles as immoral only 45 years ago. Immorality is used when you judge individual behavior, and is often used when people say one thing and do the contrary.
    When some muslims condemn the wests cultural mores as immoral, all we should do is laugh, because muslims use the west as a mirror for indecent behavior in the muslim world.
    But we don’t create immoral behavior in muslim societies, I’m sorry to say, you do yourselves.
    The incredible fast urbanization and development in general that most muslim societies is in the middle of
    demands really strict social control, 50 years ago the control was done in local communities, families, now you have to have a moral police.
    But in contrary to european culture I doubt that the arab culture will allow that the state develop a kind of ‘Stasi’ , which is necessary if you feel the need to
    control cultural developments.
    Of course I don’t like to be characterized as immoral
    and it’s not constructive, but we have got used to our kind of living, sorry to say the ball is your court.

  224. I agree with some others as I read many of the comments that there is a wide gulf on what one views as immoral or not.

    I must admit I enjoyed watching ‘Dancing with the Stars’ and seeing the competitions. Yes; some of the outfits would qualify as what I would call as skimpy but many of the dance moves themselves I did not find unusual in either the Eastern or Western culture.

    In the Eastern culture there is belly dancing and other types of Arab dancing that can be very seductive and alluring. I am also aware of some Arab (to include Saudi women) who enjoy performing these type of dances for their husbands. They learn these dances from either other family members, friends or sometimes even Arab MTV.

    But back to the point, I guess there needs to be an agreement on the definition of immoral first to get a better indication on how to best dialogue on this topic.

  225. I think it boils down to what people value. In the M.E. virginity is important and so anything that might be seen as loose or leading one astray sexually is immoral. And in the USA it used to be as well…Once women became more powerful and the society was less male dominated it was women who started deciding and shaping what is thought of as moral or immoral in Western society…She now had control over her own body, over her own money, ultimately over her own destiny…once that happened it wasn’t vital to be a virgin to survive in the world, as a woman was no longer dependent on a man and WHAT HE THOUGHT to get her bread and butter. Having gained some power she started calling the shots in her own life and things started to shift.

  226. They didn’t call it the sexual revolution for nothing!

  227. @MoQ,

    “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah” Quran (8:39) along many others verses and hadith. There is also the history of early Islam where people are invaded and converted. That ranged from the Arabic peninsula to the fertile crescent and Egypt. You cannot deny early Islam history as it sets the example of later Muslims.

    —————————————————————–

    Sorry for my late reply due to my personal egagement. I can discuss in length with you but my situation doesnt allow me.

    It may be out of topic but as you and many have some misunderstanding. Let me explain.

    Many people’s problem is that you have a lake of knowledge and analysis about islam …. u just read one verse OUT OF CONTEXT and called it Islam …. ISlam is not jsut one verse which u read out of context .. Islam is what Quran and Authentic Hadeth says INCONTEXT …To get full picture, u need 1 or more may be 5/6 verses of Quran. Let me give a simple example in English-
    “There is tiger in Jungle. Dont go there. U will be killed.” Out of three sentences above if u skip first 2 sentences and show only last – U will be killed, only action is shown not terms and conditions.

    This is how Islam is misinterpreted by showing only selective and interested verses and skipping those which gives beautiful meaning.

    Coming back to violent verses you quoted (its 8:39 not 38):

    Its sad that people stick to the verses without analysing on what context it was said. If you see jest few verses back – 8:35

    And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand-clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them): Taste of the doombecause ye disbelieve.(8:35)

    Commentary: The infidels used to go round the Kabah naked, both men and women, whistling through their fingers and clapping their hands. Use of musical instruments for sama (ecstasy occasioned by hearing song or music, or a circular dance performed by devotees in ecstasy) has no sanction in Islam in day-to-day life, leave alone at the time of worship. It is a paganish institution.

    This is what pagan tribes did but unfortunately there is no record on what these people did against Islam/Muslims/Prophet PBUH/common people/society. To save a society was necessary from such disgusting activiteis. They were advised not to do such things but they attacced, persecuted Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his followers.

    You also missed to see 8:38 which says about forgiving and compromise:

    Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return(thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (beforethem, for a warning). (8:38)

    Commentary: Allah is oft-forgiving and merciful, and the Holy Prophet is “the mercy unto the worlds”, therefore, this verse says that even those who persecuted and opposed the Holy Prophet tooth and nail may receive Allah’s pardon if they sincerely accept their mistake and regret.

    Then how is it fair to jump directly to verses 8:39 out of context?
    The order is to attact the enemy (against whom fighting has been enjoined) wherever they are found, whilst the war goes on. It does not refer to unbelievers in general. In any situation, Islam never allowed to attack innocents but always asked for self defence but not to live like coward. Also Allah asks not to cross limit “And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely God does not love those who exceed the limits” (2:190)

    “And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus unto every people have We caused their doing to seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return; and He will inform them of what they used to do.” 6:108

    Does not mention killing those who revile Allah, Allah will inform them on the Day of Judgement.

    Now let me put some more favourite verses from Islamophobic groups:

    Kill Kafirs, slay them : Quran
    Q2:190

    And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely God does not love those who exceed the limits. Islamophobic version shows only – “And fight in the way of God” (2:190)

    Q2:191

    And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the sacred mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers

    Islamophobic version shows only – “And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out …then slay them” (2:190)

    Q;60:8

    God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of your religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice.

    Q;60:9

    God only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

    Islamophobic version shows only – “God only forbids you respecting …make friends with kafirs, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust” (2:190)

    But Islamophobic version never includes following –

    Even in War, Islam says to fight only Army not
    innocents,women,children,old people

    a) “Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or
    religious people,” and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, “Do
    not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.”

    b) Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman… She was not fighting. How
    then she came to be killed? – Prophet Mohammed

    c) “Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the
    children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or burn palm trees or fruitful
    trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will
    come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave
    them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”

    These verses were pretty much relevant at that time. People in Makkah waged war on prophet Muhammad SAW and his followers and drove him out. He wanted to fight them back. But people use these versees by stripping start and end sentences of complete verse and only showing hatred part to justify their ill feelings abt Islam.

    IN short Islam says that –

    -Islam doesnt belive in giving laddu(sweets/chocklate) to those who attact Muslims but says to live like a Tiger not jackal

    -violence should be used only if the others show aggression first.

    -when u attact never cross limit

    -If the the attackers realise their mistake and comeback, treat them kindly

    -Fight only with attackers and dont harm innocents- women/old citizen/kids/animals/ and dont destroy property

    -Most importantly Islam says to respect humanity irrespective of relgion

    Kindly keep in mind that there was no social system in Arab during that time. There was full of lawlessnes. Nudity, having unlimited women, rape, murder, killing female babies, full of war like showing power without justice. So, we need to understand how difficult to bring social system in such a barbaric, animalism, hooligan culture. So, using war time verses and justifying killing innocents is done by Taliban and Al-Qaida but not expected from a well educated person.

  228. – Regarding Slavery, Islam did not come up with anything new in regulating slavery.

    ==============================

    @MoQ,

    U are completely misguided becoz what u hear is propaganda about Islam thats all, nothing reality.
    Islam doesnt allow forced sex with slaves as u claimed.

    Is a man permitted to have sexual intercourse with a slave woman who is married?
    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13202/sex%20with%20slave (note that this advice is for Muslims)

    Let me try to explain wht right Islam gave to slaves and how it try to improve conditions.

    I see this slavery is also a part of Islam bashing by many.
    What I would like to say is:-

    Be it Muslim or non-Muslim any1 will misuse Islam and Quran to justify which crappy and whimsical activities if he/she is not strong in iman.

    We need well educated scholar for complex things not simple imam or teacher..
    By simply reading Quran translation, no 1 can say that he knows Quran. Quran needs teacher who has experience in it.

    Quran relvelation took 23 years and and each verse came with a purpose. And so, we need to underatand history of Quran also, why that verse came and what was the situation and necessary condition to apply that verse.

    Ceratin verses of the quran needs to be mixed to get a full picture but not extracting one verse and misuse it. Extracting Quranic verses without analysing the terms and condition to apply that verse is something like applying rape case in husbad wife’s mutual and consenting relationship.

    Coming to the Salvery:

    Slavery here means captive of wars.
    Captives of war as a slave is nt compulsary in islam.
    Many muslim never made any captive of war as their slave.
    When Islam came to arabia it was common for people to take slaves and have sex wih slave women..

    Islam aimed at putting an end to the practice of slavery.. it did it in the same manner as drinking alchohol was stopped – in steps

    Islam laid down restrictions with regards to taking in slaves..

    Muslims were only allowed to take slaves in war if the enemy used to take slaves..

    Islam only allowed having sex with a slave women if she agreed to it.. there could be no forced sex with a slave women..

    If sexual relations were established with a slave woman, she had to be treated at par with wife, with all right except the right to inheritance.. such a slave could not be sold to others for any purpose..

    Such a slave woman had to be given freedom once the master died or if she gave birth to masters child which wasn’t allowed by others (pagans and people of other faiths)..

    The only difference was that the wife inherited property the slave women got freedom when a man died..

    Muslims were told to free slaves and it was considered an act of piety to do so..

    The aim of Islam was to abrogate the age old practice of slavery which it did in steps like many other things..

    Not one verse or Hadith encourages Slavery.

    Infact, If you read the verses on salves you find that Slaves had equal human rights as that of any other human being, exculsively granted by Islam.

    Quran encourages Muslims to free slaves, but it doesnot impose a ban on it for very deep rooted reasons. In the 7th century, slavery was the norm of the day, and was pretty common and deep rooted.

    If you put a ban on slavery, there would have been a number of free poor people who had nowhere to go and not a dime in property. They would have flooded the cities or with beggars, and crime rates would have increased. What Islam proposed is a gradual abolishment from slavery. freeing slaves was one of the biggest virtues. islam encouraged to free women slaves and marry them, and it encouraged to adopt freed slaves as brothers or sons.

    Thats why islam has to compromise with existing conditions

    Lets see what Quran and Hadith says:

    47:4 NOW WHEN you meet [in war] those who are bent on denying the truth, smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; but thereafter [SET THEM FREE] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: thus [shall it be]. And [know that] had God so willed, He could indeed punish them [Himself]; but [He wills you to struggle] so as to test you [all] by means of one another. And as for those who are slain in God’s cause, never will He let their deeds go to waste:

    024.033

    ” Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing, give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea, GIVE THEM SOMETHING yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…..

    Freeing of slaves is commanded by Allah:
    Almighty Allah did not ask us to take prisoners, Freeing of slaves is Commanded by Allah Almighty:

    It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. (The Noble Quran, 2:177)”

    Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due):If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased’s family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to God: for God hath all knowledge and all wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 4:92)”

    “God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or GIVE A SLAVE HIS FREEDOM. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful. (The Noble Quran, 5:89)”

    “But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 58:3)”

    “Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),”(The Noble Quran 24:33 )

    In this Noble Verse, we see that if a slave requests his freedom from his Muslim master, then his master not only must help him earn his freedom if there is good in the Slave, but also pay him money so the slave can have a good start in his free life.

    In short I can proudly say that Islam is the solution to humanity. It gives the universal way/rule to all problems, the way to lead our everyday life from morning to evening, evening to night and night to morning.

    Only thing we should know is how and when a correct form of Islamic rule will be applied as per the situation based on certain terms and conditions.

    Whenever there is an issue/problem, Islam has a solution.

    But, how many are ready to follow/implement/accept Islam as per its real and peaceful teachings. Very often its misused to fulfill whimsical and crappy interests. Today people see Osama, Taliban, Al-Qaida as real inspiration of Islam 🙂

    Let me finish with the following Hadith which shows how Islam tried to bring solution of every peoblem in society:-

    Volume 1, Book 3, Number 97:
    Narrated Abu Burda’s father:

    Allah’s Apostle said “Three persons will have a double reward:

    1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the Prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam).

    2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master.

    3. A MASTER OF A WOMAN-SLAVE WHO TEACHES HER GOOD MANNERS AND EDUCATES HER IN THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY (THE RELIGION) AND MANUMITS HER AND THEN MARRIES HER.”

  229. @MoQ,

    Regarding Malaysia rule, agree church was burnt there. There are criminals everywehre. But those culprits were arrested within 10 days and put in Jail with fine. But, unfortunately there were many Quran burning and tearing in US and Europe and culprits are roaming freely. There is general holidays for minority HIndus, Chrisitans, Budhists in Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan but not even a single Eurpoean country or western country give holiday on Muslim’s Idul Ajha or Idul Fitre. My relatives had requested one day leave in Spain and France (where there are 6 million Muslims – 10% of population) but denied and they had to work. U cant go in streets shouting anti non-Muslim slogan in Malaysia (once happend but all put in jail with heavy fines)but anti-Muslim slogans are done openly in all over Europe and US.
    So,point is there is good and bad everywhere. No law or system is followed in perfect way.

  230. Let me tell you about Singapore. I have family there and I have spoken with people of that small nation. They are surrounded by Islamic nations (Indonesia and Malaysia) so they are courteous and try not to create problems, but they don’t trust Islam. Muslim Singaporeans (Malays) don’t serve in combat positions in their armed forces – and the Chinese families that govern Singapore are armed to the teeth, just to keep their Muslim neighbors friendly.

    As to sharia and Singapore, of course they don’t interfere because Singapore it is not Islamic. Any Muslim country by definition will seek to subjugate and discriminate against non-Muslims. You can’t have sharia without doing that. Also note that when an Imam in Singapore goes overboard on Islam, as has happened a few times, the Authorities pay him a visit and gently ask him if he would like to move to some other place where he can practice sharia and preach hate against non-Muslims, say, up the peninsula just a few miles. That usually takes care of that.

    MD, As far as I know the 1.0, 1.2, 1.4,1.5, 1.55. 1.8 billion Muslims (take your pick because numbers seem to be very important to Muslims) all believe the Quran and think Mohammad to be a great moral example. As far as I am concerned that leaves them sitting in the lap of a god that thinks non-Muslims are lower than animals and who delights in torturing unbelievers (want references?). As to your dear prophet, perhaps you tell me if it is unreasonable to wonder about the morals of 1.0, 1.2, 1.4,1.5, 1.55. 1.8 billion people that love and respect a man that attacked others, plundered, killed, tortured, enslaved men women and children, lied and raped? (what links to Islamic texts on Islamic sites?) Oh yes, not only love and respect, but they consider him to be a great moral example. Now please tell me again why I should believe that Muslims are honest and respect others? If Muslims are so good, why do they treat non-Muslims like sh!t everywhere they dominate? Why should I believe that a Muslim in the West is any different from his brethren in Egypt, Iran, Libya, Malaysia and so on?

    Yes, the good Muslims stand against terrorists. Yes, they denounce terror, Yes yes yes — except that it isn’t working. Nothing changes. As to your link about “human rights” in islam, it is a silly, stupid joke. The guy takes a few verses, ignores others and invents an islam that doesn’t exist and never existed. Would you care to tell me where or when all those “human rights” were practiced.

    Notice my response above to the Saudi Woman about certain things that her dear prophet did (“He never abused women”), taken from sources she referred to. That was just the tip of the iceberg. I can find horrible stories in the most authentic hadith with isnards as long as your leg, telling of mothers killed, pregnant women ripped open, women being murdered, women having their teeth knocked out, being pulled apart by camels, men and boys being murdered, women being raped and so on… yet this means nothing to her. Do you think she will change or add a note to her website saying that Mohammed “may” have done some evil things and she is reconsidering her devotion? No, she will not. Why? I don’t know. Maybe because Muslims have submitted to Allah and therefore nothing matters anymore – not honesty, not decency, and certainly not human suffering.

    No, it is people like you that feed the radicals and Islamists. People like you refuse to ask hard questions and dare not open your mouths except to make silly excuses for an ideology that has brought so much suffering and death to this planet, and will bring much more.

    You quote 2.256 (no compulsion) but ignore the apostasy laws as well as the order in the hadith by your dear prophet to kill apostates. So does that make Mohammed a murderer? Or is it that between Allah and Mohammad, Muslims always obey Mohammed. Obviously, for all practical purposes, Mohammad is the senior god and Allah the junior partner. As I have said before, Muslims only care about their dear prophet.

    Continuing…. You say “What u do is to use War-related Quranic verses/Hadith verses as tool to bash Islam and Muslims, ignoring numbers of peaceful verses” Ok, so try this: What u do is to use peaceful verses as tool to justify Islam and Muslims, ignoring numbers of War-related Quranic verses/Hadith verses”. See how that works? So you and the terrorists are both practicing Islam? Yep! Now tell me what that means? It is obviously that the Quran is contradictory and poorly written. Is it then the perfect word of a god? I don’t think so. What do you think?

    No MD, you will not change. Islam is your world and it defines your existence. Your values are not my values. I will let it go at that. I don’t really write these things for you, but for the other non-Muslims out there. I just want them to see what islam does to a person. It is that simple.

  231. @JJ Kactuz,

    I have just read ur first paragraph and ignored rest as u are such a hater who spread false propaganda.

    Look I am Indian Muslim and resident of Singapore. My cousin is in Army and his father in law(Malay) was in Army too and u say Muslims cant be in Army. Any more lies to be exposed?
    Furhter, Why should I read ur hate propaganda? Why dont u join some Muslim/Islam bashing community/blog and keeping this bolg safe which was not made as Islam bashing platform.

    I have shown a lot of ur similar lies but reality is that there is no medicine for hatemongers.

  232. You quote 2.256 (no compulsion) but ignore the apostasy laws as well as the order in the hadith by your dear prophet to kill apostates. So does that make Mohammed a murderer? Or is it that between Allah and Mohammad, Muslims always obey Mohammed. Obviously, for all practical purposes, Mohammad is the senior god and Allah the junior partner. As I have said before, Muslims only care about their dear prophet.
    ===================================

    Another hatred post as usual from ignorant mouth:

  233. Carol, the discussion is heated, the positions are clear and few people are sitting on the fence…

    Even so, if you were to lock us in a big room, I feel that we would get along OK, no yelling or blood on the floor. Now order a few pizzas and put on some music and it would even be fun.

    MD and I wouldn’t be drinking beer together because I dislike beer. I do drink coffee, all day and night, by the gallon.

    There is something about online chats that brings out the worstest and most unreasonable in all of us, except Oby of course.

    You guys take care

  234. You quote 2.256 (no compulsion) but ignore the apostasy laws as well as the order in the hadith by your dear prophet to kill apostates. So does that make Mohammed a murderer? Or is it that between Allah and Mohammad, Muslims always obey Mohammed. Obviously, for all practical purposes, Mohammad is the senior god and Allah the junior partner. As I have said before, Muslims only care about their dear prophet.
    ===================================
    @JJ Kactuz,

    Ur ignorance and hate propaganda based on lies continues:

    This is how u misintrpret things to suit ur hatred need.

  235. @JJ Kactuz,

    Continues:

    All the time Allah addressed, Prophet Muhammad(Salleilahu allayhi wasallam) then said, “your duty is only to deliver the message”.
    No where in Qur’an or Hadith its mentioned to force someone to accept Islam.
    Morever Allah guides only those whom He wills, so there no comes question to harm any one when one goes astray but it someone is intending to hurt Muslims then we do have the right to defend our lives.
    Hope the below Qur’anic verses help you better comprehend, INSHALLAH.

    Qur’an
    005.099
    The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    016.035
    The worshippers of false gods say: “If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him – neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His.” So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?

    016.036
    For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), “Serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).
    ———————————————————————————————–

    029.018
    “And if ye reject (the Message), so did generations before you: and the duty of the messenger is only to preach publicly (and clearly).”
    ———————————————————————————————-

    064.012
    So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

    “And He has already revealed to you in the Book that, when you hear the Signs of Allah being denied and mocked at, sit not with them until they engage in a talk other than that; for in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allah will assemble the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell, all together.” 4:140

    Punishment of Blasphemy = NONE – Allah will deal with them!
    Reaction to a Blasphemer = IGNORE and LEAVE!

    The Quran goes further ahead and admonishes its followers not to say anything disrespectful to the idols or any other objects of worship beside God.

    “And revile not those whom they call upon beside Allah, lest they, out of spite, revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus unto every people have We caused their doing to seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return; and He will inform them of what they used to do.” 6:108

    Does not mention killing those who revile Allah, Allah will inform them on the Day of Judgement.

    One can go through the whole Quran but would not find any verse which support the idea of physical punishment for blasphemy and the same applies on the life of the prophet of Islam

    The most serious incident recorded by the Holy Quran itself is when the hypocrites accused Hadhrat Aisha (ra) for adultery and the chief of the hypocrites Abdullah bin Ubyy bin Salul and his followers were part of that false allegation.

    Abdullah bin Ubyy bin Salul lived in Medina and died his natural death. One would be surprised that the prince of mercy and peace gave his own shirt for his burial and decided to lead his funeral prayer though his companions opposed the idea. The Holy Prophet [pbuh] replied to them ‘I know better’.

  236. @MD Azad,

    I think you need to read my interview with Carol, so you stop making assumptions about what I read and about my background. It is a very poor method of debate for you to assume others have not read the religion from its sources and to throw the Islamophopia title around.

    You have written many long messages. I am not going through them and highlighting every issue for you. My premise from the start is the Quran has many violent verses and it insight violence. You asked for 1 that asks for forced conversion. I gave you 1 that was direct, you choose not to accept it and went on about the situational reason for it, etc. etc. Read the verse again. It requires Muslims to fight until religion is only for Allah. That means if you have another religion abandon it or else, pure and simple.

    The situation excuse has been used by Muslims for every issue with the Dogma. Battles and killings explained with that, enslaving people is explained with it, marrying a 9 year old is explained by it, etc.

    At one point you need to wake up and ask yourself,”if i am constantly making excuses for these clear issues with the religion, may be just may be there is a REAL problem with it”.

    I am really not interested to replying to all the issues you have in your 5 or 6 messages. They are way too long and I do not have such time. You win with volume 🙂

  237. #American bedu
    “But back to the point, I guess there needs to be an agreement on the definition of immoral first to get a better indication on how to best dialogue on this topic”
    But isn’t the point in the many words in this interesting discussion, that it’s a political discussion of what kind of society you want to live in; and I don’t think a strictly muslim in my lifetime will agree with me on this (!).
    But at least we could be nice when we are talking. ‘
    #Md. Azad Ali Shah
    I’m sorry to say, but what Islam says about slavery doesn’t interest me much. What interest me is studies in the de facto slave trade, and the documented treatment of the slaves.
    It’s now well documented that the arab and later muslim north african countries established a slave trade that counted many millions of africans from the beginning of islam to the 19. century ( in Sudan it still exists) and more than 1.5 millions europeans was taken as slaves in the 17 and 18 century, mostly initiated from the ‘barbary coast’.
    Why not just admit that slavery was in important part of the islamic economy and military before and under the ottoman period.

  238. @MoQ,

    I havent read your interview and also I think its not required as we are discussing on some points that is misunderstood but not finding what you are or what is ur background.

    Why so easy to quote a verse which says “to fight for Allah” but difficult to listen and analyse conditions and situations and how and when that verses came? Why so easy to select one verse and difficult to quaote before and after the same verse which shows a complete and well defined meaning? Why difficult to accept many verses where Quran says for humanity, not to harm innocents, not to kill female baby, and “no compulsion in relgion”?

    I am asking you also similar questions u asked. Debate is part of democracy, I do not do debate to abuse some1 or some belief or some God or Prophet . I do debate to clear things when some1 understand things in different way than its expected to be.

    @Niels Christensen,

    I am not saying what people (Muslims) do but what Islam says. Please dnt mix people’s act with some belief’s teachings. Regarding history on slavery, request you to read more on French revolutions and other history related to slavery.

  239. No it is not necessary to read it, but you assumed many things about what I read and how I come to my conclusions about my positions. So yes it became necessary, because you raise slogans like Islamophobia to make your arguments.

    Now regarding your analysis, again your asked in earlier post about where in the Quran does it say to fight and convert others. I responded by giving you 1 verse, I can provide more, but my aim here is not to turn this into a full analysis of the Quran. If someone wants to know the truth they can read the entire book and discover the 100’s of verses that promise none believers of hell fire, call them derogatory names, ask Muslims not to trust them, etc. And yes I again recommend that you read it in chronological order.

    Now regarding the situational concept, I will admit that I am not the greatest man that walked on the face of the earth. However, I have some basic morals. Under NO circumstances will I do any of the following:

    – Believe women should be treated a degree lower than men
    – Marry someone underage
    – Allow the execution of captured men
    – Enslave people
    – Take a captured a woman as my concubine slave
    – Etc.

    The question you need to ask yourself, how come a simple person knows these basic morals, but the greatest man and one that was guided by the wisdom of the creator of the universe did not know or follow these simple morals? Second question, do you agree that these acts I listed above are immoral under any circumstances?

    You see MD, you lose the use of circumstances excuse as soon as you claim divine guidance.

    We can write hundreds of arguments here about what verses, what situations, who killed who, who enslaved whom, which hadith was authentic, what tribe initiated raids of others etc. All of that is just circular arguments about life 1400 years ago.

    For some of us, there is a simple explanation for all of this madness. The man was a powerful tribal leader and followed the rules of war of his time, with all its ugliness. He is no better or no worse than others at his time, with the exception that he was more successful at wielding power. Once you start thinking that way the entire puzzle fits. Give it a try sometime!!!

  240. MD, why do you bother with those who cannot see. They purposely pick out certain verses and throw it out for their own plans. They know the truth but they do not want to know it. They want to forget it and for this reason they play on words. They ignore many, many, many good in Quran because they do not want to be reminded. They want to block it. So why bother. They choose to pick those writers who write what they want to read and ignore others. No matter how much you explain (many other commentators have done so) no matter how much sensible explanation is given, they will not understand. The same arguement will crop up again in another post showing that previous explanation was in vain.

  241. Jay Cactuz, your earlier long comment was very good! And you are right in that I have never seen you bringing up Christianity.

    Md AAS, you should read it all or stop discussing here. If your refuse to read the comments of the people you are talking down to, what value do your own comments have?
    You are not in a discussion, you are in a monologue.

    I think there is immorality in not listening to ones interlocutor, yet bombarding them with strawman arguments and long monologues.
    (to keep on topic)

  242. Sarah, your real problem is that most of us do know the truth. We have read the nice bits but also the nasty bits, and we know how many of those nice bits are obrigated by the later nasty bits following the principle of nakht. We see how the example of the prophet is a very bad example, looking at what is is reported to have done.
    We don’t block it, we put it all in it’s proper context.

    We make the logical conclusions. Uncompromising logic unfortunately strips every current belief system on Earth of it validity.
    Your problem is that we understand it much better than you do.

    The ”sensible explanation” you refer to isn’t sensible at all, which is why I cannot accept it.
    One needs the intellectual acrobatic way of thinking to accept such ”explanations” and consider them ”sensible” and I can’t.
    I only thinklogically.

  243. Aafke,
    How can you say you know more than us? Because you read the things you want to read? and that makes you more knowledgeable. How do you know how much we read. It does not seem sensible to you because your thinking, undersrtanding, mind set is different. What may seem logical to you may not be real logical but it appears so to you. Sometimes you just follow the herd (maybe to be popular or to be liked – I don’t know). If you want to read with open mind then learn from the Book itself, not from the Muslims you know. And read with peace of mind and neutrally. My friend in Holland was like you for years (and she active in Church) until she bought the Quran and read it for herself.

    Yes I know you will say that you have many Qurans. If it will make it easier for you, I will personally take you by the hand and read the arabic and explain all the parts that you have problem with. Don’t blindly join the herd but learn for yourself without the influence of people around you, then make out what is the message.

  244. Well, yes, I have the quran and the hadith and I have read them. I also have the bible.
    I have made up my mind after reading them. What is your point?

  245. @Sarah,

    Stick around for awhile. If you dont like Aafke’s views, dont worry about it, they’ll change soon enough anyways. A new set of friends, a new set of beliefs.

  246. In all the years that I have been following this blog I have NEVER seen Aafke flip flop or twist her words if they came out making her look ugly and hateful but I HAVE seen that with you Abu Sinan. So, for the umpteenth time, would you please just quit your childish tactics? This is a blog for grown ups to have adult discussions.

  247. I have not been around long enough to see any “flip” in Aafke…but even if there was one doesn’t a person have the right to change an opinion if they get new information or rethink the situation? I did that myself with Park 51…I didn’t believe that particular mosque should be built where they want to build it…but after thinking about it even though I still think it shouldn’t be built on a “feelings” level, I couldn’t deny it on a “rights” level and kind of changed my tune.

  248. I agree with Oby. When new information is learned, it’s fine to adjust your opinions on things. I’ve done this quite a lot since meeting Muslims and learning about Islam from my Syrian friends. I have also changed my views on Israel and other foreign policy situations. It’s actually a good thing for people to learn and be willing to adjust their views. The worst thing is people who learn more about the other side and still refuse to budge from their positions because they think it will make them look weak or wrong or whatever.

    I think we should all be willing to learn from others realizing just maybe our points of view are wrong or not the full picture and need adjusting a wee bit here and there.

    It’s quite fun actually!

  249. Susanne…
    I agree and isn’t that what debate is all about? To discuss and even heatedly, a topic…sometimes one’s POV will not change at all and other times it will. I believe Aafke once said that she held a somewhat favorable view of Islam until she started reading about it and learning about it and then changed her POV. But that is the way it goes sometimes…we start out positive on a subject and change or the reverse…I don’t think it makes the POV any less valid IF the person has taken time out to look at it and then made a decision for themselves based on knowledge gained from research.

  250. Yes, Oby and Lynn, I don’t see what’s the fuss about.
    But I am indeed always willing to adjust my opinion.
    The only thing I require is convincing proof.

  251. It sort of reminds me of when you convert to Islam every Muslim surrounding you treats you like a queen and exclaims over how intellectual you are and how you are fortunate that you were guided…God must love you so much etc etc…but then the moment you start asking questions…or disagreeing with other Muslims on particular subjects etc…they quickly point a finger and claim you have been brainwashed by nonMuslims or reading the wrong “experts” etc.

    In other words, agree with us exactly as we do and dont ask questions…cause questions make the sheep nervous.

    I dont always agree with Aafkes choice of words, her manners in communication are abysmal, but she did not flip flop. A few years ago when she first happened onto this blog she knew very little about Islam…a newbie so to speak…so her language concerning it wasnt so critical. A few years later is has evolved as she has learned more. Good or bad, that is what it is…no flip flopping.

  252. I think I am one of the few very much “on the fence” in regards to the contradicting views. As one who has not only lived in KSA but other Muslim countries where Islam has been practiced or outwardly portrayed differently, I can see the perspectives of those with opposing views.

    I agree with Jay that if we were all indeed in one room and broke bread together we would share and get to know one another in a respectful manner. It’s just that when anonymous, it is so easy to espouse with foul language or make direct attacks at an individual for his or her opinion.

    I think now we can also better understand why interfaith dialogues are difficult to maintain.

    Back to original subject, exposure and culture of many in the (Eastern) Muslim world I think has played a huge influence in why the West is viewed as so immoral. Yet if any Muslim from Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia or other predominantly Muslim country were to come to the USA and meet Americans, I believe they would find more similarities to outlooks on life and values than differences.

  253. Aafke
    I have no doubt that you have read but isn’t it possible that you have mis-read or misunderstood something?

    When one sincerely wanst to learn, then he/she would refer to books upon books in the language it is written (yes I know, the issue of Arabic). I do not mean it in some superior way but it is really a fact that Dutch people have their way with words that others may not understand. It is like when an American makes a american joke with someone from Uganda, it will not be funny because Americans have their way with words. (Like the word “Babe” for example which was used previously inappropriately).

    It is the same with Arabic. Some expression used in Dutch will be understood by Dutch people. This is why I am saying do not go by what people say. Read the books and try to learn the language.

    I just heard from a doctor that women are far better at languages than men so you have an advantage!

    As I said I have no problem with explaining the parts you have problem with.

  254. @ Sarah

    when you say that you have to read Quran and the rest of literature in arabic to actually understand the true meaning of the message of Islam, doesn’t it defeat the concept of universality of the message?

    also, as far as i know (please correct me if i’m wrong) the quran is written in the classical arabic which even native speakers of arabic have to learn to actually understand it yes? thank you 🙂

  255. Md Ali..

    I was reading this today and I wanted to post it here although it is a bit off the topic it touches upon your topic from before.

    This time it concerns a somali teen. This is concerning to me for two reasons…I live in the second largest somali settled community in the USA. I have found Somalis to be among the most polite and humble of people…My interactions with them have always been polite and enjoyable. Due to what Moq mentioned way above “al-Shabab” the USA is facing a growing threat from Somali youth due to this ideology. Kids that never gave an issue or worry are becoming radicalized due to Islamism. People that up to this point had been settled and quiet, unfailingly polite and gentle (in my experience) are getting swayed by this. Do you think that the people in my community, if a somali kid blows himself up at a mall and kills many people are going to think “well, we must understand that this is not Islam…Islam is a religion of peace…this boy has been radicalized.”? Most folks are going to be like “hell no!” They will not separate Islam from radicalization. And you can shout from the rooftops that “this is not Islam” but the fact of the matter is that islam is as islam does and people will judge it by it’s lowest common denominator…

    Do you think that Muslims are saying “oh look…the priests of that Catholic faith have not acted right and have hijacked their faith”? Hell no! I am sure they are thinking “what kind of horrible debased faith is it”? I can yell as loud as I like “this is not what Catholicism is all about” …and had it been one incident people might have listened…but when it is over and over and over no one gives a darn what I say…they judge the faith by WHAT IT DOES. There are a minority of priests that have molested…but what do people remember? The many that have not harmed anyone or the few that have? The few of course and they base their judgments on that. Plain and simple. For almost all people if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck (the parts that we see) then for all intents and purposes it is a duck!

    This young man will get a trial at great expense to the taxpayers when he clearly showed his intent to do great harm even after he was given a few chances to abandon his mission…to me there is not a question of what his intent was…yet he will be treated to a fair trial because he is an american citizen. I personally think that he should be treated as an enemy of the state(due to his intentions) and treated as such…or better yet since he wants to live via Sharia how about we punish him via Sharia…perhaps a stoning or a beheading? It certainly would be no less merciful than what he planned to do to many.

  256. Correction:

    “It certainly would be no less merciful than what he planned to do to many.”

    Should read:

    “It certainly would be no less MERCILESS than what he planned to do to many.”

  257. goodness me, you are still debating here?!!!!!!!hehehe.

    I will be back to you later to join this crazy party hehe

  258. There is one difference with the priest/terrorist comparison. I’m fairly certain that the priest cannot find justification for his barbaric act in his holy book like these terrorists can and THAT is the problem.

    The majoity of Muslims in the world are illiterate so how are they supposed to understand the truth if it takes so much education to understand?

    Islam was created by an illiterate man FOR illiterate people. That is why memorization and simplicity was so important. So how in the world did it all get so complicated?

  259. @Oby,

    I agree what u say to some extent but not fully. Sorry, its my opinion. Its undeniable fact that terrroists have hijacted Islam. People see what a relgion through the prision of its follower’s acts. I judge a person with his acts but I do not judge a faith/relgion with people’s acts. Just like you said, I do not link child molestation by Catholic priests in all over world with Bible or Christianity. I think you know very well about India. In Entire North Eastern Indian, there are no Muslim terrorists but HIndu and majority christian and HIndu terrorists. Suicide bombing was first heard in 1990s when former Indian Prime Minister Rajib Gandhi was killed by woman Hindu Terrorist suicide bomber. Before this his mother, Indian Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi was killed by Sikh terrorists in 1983. There is almost everyday blast and killings by Christian and Hindu terrorists in North East India. (Search ULFA, LTTE and NSCN in google). LTTE HIndu terrrorists train child suicide bombers and kills minority Muslims in Sri Lanka.

    Even LTTE leader said he was inspired by HIndu’s holy books Gita :

    http://expressbuzz.com/world/prabhakaran-was-inspired-by-gita/69693.html

    When Sri Lankan govt crushed LTTE Hindu terrorists, Indian Tamil Hindu burnt Indian flags and protested openly in India just becoz Indian govt did not stop Sri Lankan govt from killing LTTE terrorists.

    There are around 175 terrorist group in India, out of which 32 are dormant or active Muslim terrorists and almost 140 terrorists group in India are christians and Hindus:

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/19317-175-terror-groups-active-hindustan.html

    So, should people judge christianity, Sikhism and Hinduism based on these terrorists belonging to their faiths? Off course not right? Then why in case of Muslims only people fail to segregate bad, criminal, terrorists from theri faith/Islam? May be a Muslim terrorist chant Allahu Akbar before bombing, a Hindu terrorists also chant “Jai Sri Ram” before killing and raping pregnant Muslim woman. So, do they really represent a reglion? A person should learn relgion from terrorist, rapist, bomber, child molester?

    Should I judge christianity, sikhism, Hinduism based on their acts?

    By the way, why to segregate this US incident only. Why not almost everyday blasts in Pakistan , Afghanistan? And in Iraq? Who are the maximum victims of Muslim terrorists ? Muslim or non-Muslims? God knows what is the reality and motive behind terroirst’s acts. But many Muslims like me feel that people are brainwashed, frustrated or victims and so they take up extreme steps. Is their motive agaisnt US’s mingling in other’s matters or against non-Muslims or Muslims?

    Muslims are suffering at the hands of terrorists, we are responsive everywhere. Many Muslims are frustrated with terrorists and Many terrorists are frustrated with US and its allies. There was no bomb blast in Iraq 20 years back but today everyday blasts. There were no prostitutes in Iraq but today there are 100,000 homless prostitues today. There were no Taliban before US created them and funded them to fight Russia.

    World was suddenly destroyed through communal lines for political gains, hope was lost for many.

    We need to build up again with supports from every other individual without communal tag, without hatred in heart.

    Kindly note that like any other non-Muslims, common Muslim like me wants to prosper in my careers, take care of my parents, family, wants to educate my sisters, brothers. I want to be proud among my non-Muslim freinds but not responsive or reactive. I do not like people to blame/question me whenever there is some terrorist attack as if like I did that. I have a dream in life , to achieve something. If u really see with clean heart, I have same dreams as urs. Just for being a Muslim, my dreams are not different from yours.

    Personally, I am also victim of Hindu terrorists in my childhood. But, today my maximum close friends are Hindus (who are agaisnt those terrorists).

    Finally, my name is MUHAMMAD AZAD ALI SHAH but I am not a terrorist. I do not like to harm any innocent in life. I want to live like you peacefully with dignity.

  260. @MD,

    “Finally, my name is MUHAMMAD AZAD ALI SHAH but I am not a terrorist. I do not like to harm any innocent in life. I want to live like you peacefully with dignity.”

    I like that argument. Here is what I think will achieve that for all religions. Live your life as a moral person, who has a spiritual connection with his/her God. I truly do not have any issues with that. Actually I will support you on it.

    Where issues arise is when Islam or other religions are used as a moral guidance for political gain, explaining the mysteries of the world (contradicting science) and to set laws. Others view these as interference in the progress of humanity. Religion, including the others you mentioned, should not be given a pass when it interferes into these areas. It should be treated like any other ideology whether political or social. Demanding respect for religion is not a valid expectation if it tries to implement morals and has political aspiration.

    Leave religion in the realm of spirituality and you will get my support and I will defend your right to what you believe.

    One final note, from what I see from your comments, I really think you are a good man that tries to do good in the world. However, I disagree with you on the Dogma, which tries to insert itself in 3 specific areas Science, Law and Politics.

  261. Well, Muhammad Asad Ali Shah, I have no doubt that you are not a terrorist and I don’t think that anyone here has said all Muslims are terrorists.

    Why is it that Muslims are the majority of the terrorist’s victims? Because the terrorists do not consider them MUSLIM because they are Shia or some other ‘deviant’ sect. Where do they get that idea that they should kill the deviants?

  262. @ lynn

    So when some group of people kill say 10,00 people , they are terrorists. But when a nation vote and agree for wars and their army kill hundred of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and way before that in Japan , they become the liberator of the world?

  263. Well, Ali, I wouldn’t say that I agree with that kind of liberating but it seems that the worshippers of Mohammed feel he was in the right when he liberated the idol worshipping societies. No?

  264. So we haven’t come up with the definition of Immoral yet?

  265. @Ali,

    You are missing the point. No one is stopping you from blaming American for what you believe as indecent acts of war. Some may disagree with you, some may agree. All arguments are valid in the process of discussion, just win them on merits.

    The problem is Muslims want a special treatment of their religion, where it is not questioned. If you do not give this special treatment all kinds of slogans get thrown around like Islamophobia. What you are asking for is to change rules of debates to give you an undeserved advantage, because you have a faith. It stops being just a spiritual faith when it is attached to a political ideology.

  266. hmmm…when you say Muslims want a special treatment from their religion the thought that crossed my mind is whether a Saudi considers themselves first a Muslim before a Saudi or can there be a separation between identity (as in nationalism) and religion? Can there be actions or treatment because one is a Saudi as compared to one is a Muslim?

  267. worshippers of Mohammed ? nobody worships him as far as I know. And I believe if you want to know more of his era you should get some information from unbiased sources and do a lot of research because you seem to have a little understanding of historical context. There is no crimes and terrorism in the world that is equal to the colonial and western crime ( killing of millions of civilians in Algeria, Syria , Libya , Japan etc etc and in recent days Iraq and Afghanistan ) There no equivalent for these crimes in Islamic or Arabic history whatsoever.

  268. I used the term to desribe those the feel that Mohammed was a person to be emulated regardless of his ‘immoral’ activities.

    If you think that there are no equivalent crimes in Islamic or Arabic history then, sir, I’d have to tell you that you might also want to get some information from unbiased sources.

  269. Q lynn

    I have studied in British schools and was lucky enough to have different of sources to look at history. I came to the conclusion that there is the most ugliest and vilest crimes in history were committed by the west. Weather in modern or ancient history , weather in the Middle East or Africa, in name of freedom or in name of modernization or even religion. I wont ask you about what immoral activities of Mohammed because whatever a Muslim would say , you considered irrational.

  270. @Lynn,

    “So we haven’t come up with the definition of Immoral yet?”

    I am not sure we can define every aspect of morality as it branches into many areas of law. However, I can give my guidelines of what should be the basis of morality and eventual development of Laws:

    – All adult humans have 2 possession, that cannot be violated by others. 1) their body 2) their mind. Hence, the sanctity of those positions should be preserved.
    – This right can be taken away if a person violates the rights of others (example criminals can lose freedom over what to do with their body and put in jail). This type of punishment should not be taken lightly. This is why principles of innocence until proven guilty should be taken into high consideration. Further, punishment should fit the crime. As an example corporal punishment as lashing for what is considered sex crimes is barbaric.
    – Children minds and bodies should be protected by adult guardians. Those adults should be held responsible for this protection and their rights to it can be stripped if they are not good custodians.
    – Humans can extend their rights to external things like property. These rights can be earned or inherited.

    The above is not a comprehensive list. However, we can use it as a basis for a start of a discussion.

    In my view of the world laws are the codification of common morality. They have to take certain principles into consideration as they get developed. For example, forcing a woman dress or undress in a certain way will violate the first rule above. Another example: a man cannot be in control of an adult woman in her decisions as he will violate her possession of her mind and body.

  271. ‘I wont ask you about what immoral activities of Mohammed because whatever a Muslim would say , you considered irrational’

    Why would you make that assumption of me?

    Just to see if we are on the same page as far as our definition of ‘morality’, do you believe that it is immoral for a man, even in the time of war, to take the daughter and wife of men he has killed on the battlefield as his own wife?

  272. #MoQ
    “Children minds and bodies should be protected by adult guardians. Those adults should be held responsible for this protection and their rights to it can be stripped if they are not good custodians.”

    And now to the real question: What is a good custodian/guardian ?

    #Md. Azad Ali Shah
    “Regarding history on slavery, request you to read more on French revolutions and other history related to slavery.”

    Honestly Ali Shah I can’t guess your hints, I’m sorry to say, what is the connection between widespread slavery in Islam and the french revolution : None
    But the ideas of the french revolution has a big share in the end of slavery (also in the muslim world).

    #Ali
    “I came to the conclusion that there is the most ugliest and vilest crimes in history were committed by the west.”
    Yes ( we don’t deny that) AND what is your point ?
    That muslim countries ( besides a couple of really
    awful exceptions) hasn’t been able to create serious evil since the Ottoman dynasty vent into decline in
    the seventeen century.

  273. Md. Azad Ali Shah

    I have not said nor do I think you are a terrorist because you are Muslim…I am Catholic but that doesn’t make me a pedophile…

    But lets face it…both of our faiths have a major PR problem. I personally think as absolutely despicable as the priests are who perpetrated the crimes of which I speak, our problem is a bit less than Islam because as Lynn pointed out there is absolutely nothing in our (Catholic) holy books that can be misconstrued to justify pedophilia… Period. End of subject. Full stop. Those men did it because they were immoral, selfish, despicable people. they took advantage of young men because they had the power to do so. For me holy men or not they belong in jail.. the men did it because they were unable to control their sexual impulses. It was moderately self contained…several thousand and the priests did not seek to apply it to the entire Catholic church or the larger world for that matter (not that justifies it or makes it right in ANY way) but it is a safe bet that anyone who wasn’t catholic or had nothing to do with any of these guys would never ever be at risk….On the other hand, a political agenda is wreaking havoc and waging war on your faith. Not only has it killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in islamic countries it also is wreaking havoc in countries that have nothing to do with Islam. Was it started due to colonialism? I suppose there is a good argument for that…but I think that if every american soldier came home tomorrow and America pulled out all it’s support and there was not a single non Muslim in Islamic countries there would still be a problem. I don’t think this political agenda is entirely about waging war on the Americans because they are in your lands. Firstly, Al Queda has killed more muslims than non. Secondly Muslims in many many countries have nothing to fear from America…not likely we are going to be bothering most of Europe or Australia or even most of the MENA countries. Thirdly, you seem to feel that we the people get to vote on whether we go to war or not…sorry we don’t get a choice in that…if we did I think that there would be a lot less war. We get no say in the matter…so don’t blame the people for it. Kind of like saying all Muslims are terrorists because some are.

    I honestly believe that if America had nothing to do with Islam, Muslims MENA countries etc…there would still be issues because it IMO isn’t about that. It is about these guys with the ideology dominating ALL…you, me, the atheist, the Hindu, everyone with a very severe form of Islam. Our infidel presence is a great excuse and an irritation no doubt…but if we left NOTHING would change in those countries..they would still be corrupt, they would still be repressive, they would still be poverty stricken and people would still be under the thumb of oppression.
    Many times I have wished that the West would leve that part of the world alone..let them govern themselves, let them handle their own problems, withdraw all financial aide that we give, if asked say no to any military aide etc., curb immigration and let people live where they are from. We are so evil who would want to come to the “infidel” lands anyway.

    And yes I know that there are terrorists of all stripes…ALL terrorism is wrong ESPECIALLY when it is pushing a political agenda. As long as Islam remains in the spiritual realm where ALL religions belong then i have no issues…the minute it tries to push it’s dogma on me I have a big problem.

    And I don’t agree with a lot of what America does…the West has been an instigator in many ways…but Japan bombed us first…Muslims knocked down the WTC…and we have not ALWAYS been the ones doing the bombing and oppressing.

  274. Lynn

    Immorality varies from society to other In. For instance, Middle eastern cultures ( including Christians and Jews) having sex before marriage is immoral for both genders , in practicing Islam both genders should be punish ( when unmarried people have sex they get a very minor punishment , if a married person has sex out of his marriage , he or she gets the capital punishment , just to be on the clear for this point ).

    In the west , its the norm to have sex before marriage ( a lot of one-night stands in college life is not immoral in the west while its a big sin in the middle-eastern cutlers )

    So, If if you look at the west from a middle-eastern Islamic view, its immoral when it comes to some issues like sex and family relations , but it has great morals regarding work ethics and public money control.

    As a Black Arab ( my grandfather was an ex-slave for a tribe that we still carry because they asked my family to do so to keep connected to the tribe ) I know about the immoral activities in the U.S until the 70s which was official , segregated schools and OFFICIAL racial discrimination while at the same time in Saudi my homeland for example slavery did not end until the 60s but at the same time we as Blacks we were traded with dignity even the slaves and after the slavery ended we still attended schools with native Saudis while in the States slavery ended way before and they had Negro schools in the 60s!! you will tell ” look we have a black person in charge now” thats great but you guys do a lot of wrong things and realize it later ( like wars , treatment of black people ) Americans thought in the 40s and 50s that this was the rational thing to do with blacks.

    it the end every culture has its own set of morals , the thing that you follow your culture’s rules and thats it.

  275. Correction ,

    ( my grandfather was an ex-slave for a tribe that we still carry because they asked my family to do so to keep connected to the tribe)

    I meant ( still carry the Tribe name )

    sorry

  276. “…..as Blacks we were traded with dignity even the slaves”

    Traded with Dignity is about as perfect a fit to an Oxymoron as you will find.

    Ali, How about you just accept that Slavery and discrimination are immoral acts. Does not matter who did it. For you to justify that my slavery was better than yours is an exercise in futility.

    One of the primary issues with Saudi Arabia is the constant justification of problems, rather than admitting to them and work to solve them.

    Now that Saudi finally abolished slavery, it is time it abolishes the extreme gender discrimination. The issue is most Saudi would not even admit that it is a major issue which needs to be addressed.

  277. @Niels Christensen,

    At this level of a discussion we need to find common grounds. For morality to be developed as laws at least some principle have to be agreed on. Detailed laws/common morals can be measured against them.

    I do not think there is even an agreement of a person owning their own body and mind. Hence, you see Muslims declaring that sex (an exercise of a person’s control over their own body), should be punished with lashing and even death.

    These are disagreements on fundamentals, never mind on the details.

  278. Why is it that Muslims are the majority of the terrorist’s victims? Because the terrorists do not consider them MUSLIM because they are Shia or some other ‘deviant’ sect. Where do they get that idea that they should kill the deviants?

    ————————————————————————–
    Dear Lynn,

    Thats really mystery for Muslims too. I had a strong objection to almost every Pakistani untill I met them personally in my work place. I used to think almost every Pakistani support Terrorism agasint India.

    Fact is that a common Pakistani is not different from me. And a common Muslim like me is not different from any one of u.

    Let me share, I know u will not digest it just like I cant digest. Different Pakistani have different opinion. Some say that India and US allies fund and train terrorists to destabilise Pakistan (like Baluchistan people are fighting for separation). Some say that US and Indian alies are playing divide and rule policy by creating hate poison to both shia and Sunnis. Some says these terrrorists are brainwashed by showing pictures/videos of Muslims victims like in Palestine, Gujarat India, Afghanistan.

    Similar brainwashing pictures are here:

    http://indianterrorism.150m.com/gujarat%20pictures%201.htm

    U can see all pictures in the link. At least some weak heart can be brainwashed after seeing such victims. They are told that if u dnt stand now, u will be next victim and so and so. In some other cases, these terrorists are so poor and who are promised for promising career and change the lives of his family. Biggest example is Mumbai incident terrorist Kasab whose father sells eggs and terrorist gave him money and used him.

    Some say they are frustrated real victims who wants to die after revenge. Some try to misinterpret religious doctrines to brainwash them.

    So, only terrorists know what is their real motive.
    Sincerely speaking whenever we see a blast or terrorist activities in TV, newspaper, all in families/freinds curse these terrorists. We have a feeling of suffocation in heart, that can not be expressed in worlds.

    God knows what is reality. Just like you do not have an answer for this, a common Muslim doesnt have response.

    Many non Muslims thinks Muslims support terrorists and good Muslims do not stand agaisnt terrorists as said by JJ Kactuz. But, this is completely misconception.

    Let me just give one example (even though there are innumerable examples, u can search “Fatwa against terrorism” in google) how Indian Muslims denied burial of those terroirsts killed in Mumbai incident. Decision was taken by religous Muslim leaders. So, religious Muslims are not by default fundamentalists too. Muslims did whatever they can agasint terrorism much beyond mere condemnation.

    A common Muslims do not enjoy blood bath. WE also feel that color of blood is same and it doesnt categorise faith. We also feel painful to see suffering of any innocents. So, people should remove this miconception that Muslims do not stand agaisnt terroirsm.

  279. And I don’t agree with a lot of what America does…the West has been an instigator in many ways…but Japan bombed us first…Muslims knocked down the WTC…and we have not ALWAYS been the ones doing the bombing and oppressing.

    —————————————————–
    @Oby,

    I didnt blame Americans at all for what US govt doesnt. I personally blame Bush for all he has changed this wrold from peaceful one to a world of bombs.

    Plz do not assume that I and other common Muslims do not recognise and appreciate the protest of millions of Americans agaisnt Iraq war. But still happend agaisnt wishes of people.

    One small correction, long before WTC, there was Gulf war in Iraq in 1990, which was the start of global terrorism. Before that I hardly hear any kind of so called Islamic terrorism in world even though Quran came 1400 years back. In 1976, palestinian terrorists attacked Israeli athletes, that I see as political conflict/war/terrorism not relgious terrorism. 1990s was the time world was changed slowly and today we are getting fruit. But, we fail to accept this ..may be we have forgotten past but see present only.

  280. So Mohammad was only a messenger, nothing more? I really think you should reconsider that statement. I know you know he was also a leader, general (warlord, technically), judge, priest or Imam, ruler (chief, king, whatever). He did not just “deliver a message”, but managed and executed it, and added his own content. To say he was just a messenger to ignore history and your own scripture.

    The truth is that, according to the ahadith, Islam’s prophet attacked villages and caravans time after time. Tabari says Mohammad personally participated in 26 raids and sent out another two dozen in which he did not go. Quote: “The military expeditions (Ghazawat, literally raid) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven.” And “The armies and raiding parties sent by the Messenger of Allah between the time he came to Medina and his death (ten years) was forty-eight.” (Tabari IX:118 and IX:115). The accounts tell of the killing, plunder and taking slaves, of giving captured women to the Prophet’s men. The writers were especially proud of the raids where the caravans and villages were taken by surprise. How can you say he was just a messenger?

    Now lets talk about the relationship between Allah and Mohammad. The Quran is full of references such as these: Obey Allah and His Messenger, believe in Allah and His Messenger, show your faith in Allah and His Messenger, an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, We believe in Allah and in the messenger, and we obey, they fear that Allah and His Messenger will act wrongfully towards them , Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment, etc…

    If M were just a messenger, his name would not need to have been mentioned. Right? In the Bible you find statements that say “Thus sayeth the Lord” not the “Lord and Moses” or “Jehovah and Isaiah declare” say this or that. In the Bible, Jehovah’s prophets to not make decisions and share joint authority with God.

    Note also the many special exceptions and special permissions – only for the Prophet, of course. The Quran is full of special cases and exceptions — for Mohammad to cut, burn and destroy orchards and fields (59:5.) to attack and burn mosques and kill Muslims (9:107, 110). to violate the sanctity of the sacred month Rajan (which from immemorial antiquity in Arabia had been consecrated to peace) and attack infidels (Sura 2). to marry more than 4 women “this only for thee, and not for the believers” (33:50). Not only does the Quran have special rules for Islam’s prophet, it has a bunch of special rules for his wives (see below). I know that this will surprise you, but when one wife got fat (Sauda was her name) Allah came through with another revelation (found in Quran 33:51) to save his prophet from a whale. I quote: “Then when Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this (relating to his wives): ‘You may defer any one of them you wish, and take to yourself any you wish; and if you desire any you have set aside (no sin is chargeable to you)'”. Sauda was designated official housekeeper and relieved of certain marital duties. Tell me, isn’t that kind of suspicious?
    Now, about Allah and Mohammed as co-gods, equal in status (kind of). If you read the Quran it is obvious that Mohammad is making decisions and cooperating with Allah. “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful” (9:29) . So Mohammad determines what is right and wrong? Another quote: “No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allah and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error.” (33:36) So Allah needs Mohammad to make a decision? What the text says is that Allah and Mohammad act together. It makes Mohammad a full partner to Allah, contrary to the doctrine that says that the worst sin (shirk) is to associate partners to Allah (4:48). Even so, Mohammad associates himself to Allah hundreds of times. In fact, when there is a divergence between Allah and Mohammad, Muslims obey their dear prophet, always – As noted in the case of apostasy. Another example, as far as I know, the Quran says the faithful are to pray three times a day, but Mohammad in the hadith says 5 times. Who do Muslims obey? Mohammad. In fact, Allah is just numero tres in veneration, behind Mohammad, a black stone (all Muslims still bow down to rocks, just like the pagans did before Islam) and in third place, way behind, is poor Allah. Have you ever seen a Muslims upset about people disrespecting Allah? Nope! Now draw a silly picture of Mohammad and they froth at the mouth.
    Continuing – consider verse 8.41: And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah and to the Messenger. So Allah and Mohammad share plunder. They are partners, then. The question of why Allah needs plunder is, of course, something Muslims don’t want to think about, or even why there is a Surah called the ‘Spoils of War’ in a book Muslims say is about peace.
    Let me share one last verse from Allah, or Mohammad, or both, whatever: “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (5:101-102). In other words, Allah and Mohammed are telling Muslims to not think, not ask questions, not use their brain. I am happy to report that Muslims follow this verse faithfully!

  281. Hmmm….

    The way you lay it out Jay it does seem that Allah is linked inextricably with Mohammed. You are right in that Muslims have an issue with Jesus as co ruler so to speak…why does Mohammed get a pass? The way you describe it it almost feels that Mohammed has to keep reminding people of his link to Allah lest they think he is not quite as powerful as he should be. Why DOES god need booty? I can understand a human being needing it but God? It gives one pause to think.

  282. MD, If nothing else you are persistent. I must admit. And yes, Muhammad Azad Ali Shah, you are not a terrorist. You can put me down as a reference.

    Anyway, I am going to take some time off for about three days to catch up with life. You guys will have to stumble along without me. I know it will be difficult.

    That is satire. Joking! I am sure the world will do fine without me.

    Anyway, in the holiday spirit I leave you a flash mob video. I love these events – they are fun and the reaction of bystanders is always great. Note to Muslims, it may contain immorality (maybe not by Lynn’s definition, however) but at least no nudity.

    AA, I hope the video will add variety to my boring (yes, I admit) monologue. You take care.

    Enjoy!

  283. Hahahahaaaa! Brilliant! Very good flash mob!
    Thanks for sharing Jay!
    😀

  284. Ali,
    I’ll ask you again and we can consider that morals are different depending on where you come from, given where you come from, the culture that you were raised in, do you believe that it is immoral for a man, even in the time of war, to take the daughter and wife of men he has killed on the battlefield as his own wife the same day that her people were killed?

    Is that a difficult question for you to answer?

    Also you say: ‘In the west , its the norm to have sex before marriage ( a lot of one-night stands in college life is not immoral in the west while its a big sin in the middle-eastern cutlers)’

    I have to correct you there. One night stands are not ILLEGAL in the ‘west’ but, to a great many people (religious and not) who live here, they ARE immoral. I thought that we already stipulated that these kinds of immoral behaviors happen everywhere in the world where there are human beings. The fact that it is an Islamic country with a majority devout Muslims and sharia laws with execution as punishment does not even stop it. So, I guess I’m not sure what your point is.

  285. lynn

    ( do you believe that it is immoral for a man, even in the time of war, to take the daughter and wife of men he has killed on the battlefield as his own wife the same day that her people were killed? )

    If this was 1000 years ago, maybe it was not a problem at there time. But if the happened in 1990s or something , I will considered immoral.

    In the 1950s in the U.S, it was normal to beat up a black man because he entered ” all whites ” place and it was normal to treat them like nothing. But in the late 60s this started to change and these acts were considered immoral. Another Example , is France acts and crimes in Algeria ( 1830-1965) are still considered moral by the French government and refuse to apologize for it because they think it was the right thing at that time!

    I really don’t want to keep going on this because by looking at previous comments and posts, I see people think that their culture is better and Muslims or Arabs or people with different culture should follow so they can be moral people. If you believe that these people are in the dark and should be saved by the Americans { France and Britain used to take this role as colonials and kill millions to save them from the ” darkness ‘ of countries’ local cultures}, there is no point of this discussion. I think I have invested so much time in this , and the return is not worth it.

    and for you future reference, ” one night stands” are not the norms in colleges in Muslim countries, while in in an American colleges for example its not a unique thing ( usual Saturday night for kids there, drink and get laid ) , there is a big deference and its not the punishment that prevent most Muslims from these immoral acts , its the believe and the culture.

  286. Md. Azad Ali Shah, I have no idea why you would think that I would find it difficult to digest the fact that people are individuals and not everyone thinks alike. Because you used to be prejudiced against people you didn’t know you think that that is a common for others to be like that? Just so you know, it is NOT like that for everyone.

    I’m sorry if I don’t think that it is enough that Muslims in India don’t want to bury the suicide bombers in their cemetaries or won’t allow lawyers to represent them in court (I think that is pretty deplorable actually). Those are not the kinds of things that we want you peace loving Muslims to do. I know that this might be difficult for YOU to digest but it appears to me that you are making excuses for the terrorists by talking about how they are brainwashed (why would you share that brainwashing link if you think it is a bad thing?) and by saying ‘I personally blame Bush for all he has changed this wrold from peaceful one to a world of bombs’. (Honestly, that seems delusional to me and I don’t even like Bush either) If you think that the world was peaceful before Bush got to power you have missed a LOT of the happenings in this world.

    ‘We also feel painful to see suffering of any innocents’

    Ahhh, there’s the rub actually because who gets to determine who the ‘innocents’ are? Clearly Bush is not innocent so how could the people that voted for him TWICE be innocent? Right? Seriously, WHO are the innocents? Is Hamas a terrorist group or the protector of the oppressed? What about the people that voted them into power? Are they terrorists or brainwashed or what?

    So, what do we want you, the average Joe Blow Muslim to do? Figure out why these peace loving people would resort to these acts and do something to give them another outlet or correct their deviant thinking. How many in depth investigations into the lives of some of these terrorists to figure out exactly how they came to their ways of thinking? Perhaps there is a mosque with a radical preacher that should be shut down? Does that ever happen? Perhaps there are text books in the schools that need revisions (google Palestinian school books and children’s television programming). Perhaps there is an old family friend that spouts off all kinds of anti kuffar messages that you need to open your mouth to silence instead of practicing politeness? Can you do that or would it sound like you are anti-Islam if you are not anti-kuffar?

    It’s not for ME to figure out what the problem is. That is for y’all to do but you cannot discount the huge part that your holy book and all it’s confusion plays in this. It is one thing to label someone as a non-Muslim once he has done a terrorist act but you have to honestly look at who that person was the day before he did that? Did you consider him a Muslim on that day? What was different about him and what can you do to recognise it before he does harm?

  287. Ali, ‘In the 1950s in the U.S, it was normal to beat up a black man because he entered ” all whites ” place and it was normal to treat them like nothing’

    Actually, you are wrong there. I’m not denying that blacks were discriminated in some areas of the south but that is far from the whole country and it was not LEGAL. Also, when slavery was legal it was not legal in the whole country only parts of the south. If you are interested in the history of blacks in this country there is all kinds of information out there. All you have to do is look.

  288. And for you future reference, ” one night stands” are not the norms in colleges in Non-Muslim countries either. (you cannot count the perverted Muslim boys who come to school in our country and behave as they do with the girls here)

  289. Ali,
    Do you see your culture is better and that non-Muslims should follow it so they can be moral people? Do you believe that they are in the dark and should be saved by Islam? { many Muslims, like Mohammed, used to take this role as colonials and kill millions to save them from the ” darkness ‘}

    I’m just sayin…

  290. @Lynn,

    Some of these guys assume that facts are what their friends tell them. Usually, it is another male(s) bragging stories about their sexual conquests having all of those imaginary one night stands to impress their friends. All the sudden that becomes facts and you hear it on Bedu.

    @Ali/Hamad, have you settled on which name you want to use on your blog comments. These constant changes make the stories you write here lose credence.

  291. Dear Kasia
    Thank you for your interesting question and I hope I can be clear in my response. First of all, my apologies for the late response. I am working on a project and I was not able to visit this blog.

    Kasia, I want to make it clear that I did not say that
    to understand the “message”, one has to read in Arabic. I was meaning the Book as a whole.

    Actually all divine books came in the language of the prophet through whom it was revealed. In this case it happened to be Arabic. However with Quran, it is not only a book of message, it is also a book with excellent literature.

    At the time or revelation, those who did not believe in the message, did indeed appreciate the literary poetic/prose of the Quran and then there were those who appreciated both the eloquent language as well as the message. Understanding the message and appreciating the literature are 2 different things. The Arabs of Prophet’s time, those who did not accept the message, did appreciate its literature. There are still Arabs (non-Muslims) of today who are like them.

    However there were others who did not understand the literature of the Quran in much the same way as many would not understand Shakespeare’s works.The poetic language is an added attraction to the poety-lovers of that time.

    The loss in not understanding the literary side of the Quran is not big. However it is missing the message that is a big loss.

    You see, Kasia, the “message” part of the Quran is very simple, there is no complications at all and they are easy to translate (yes even with brackets – because one word of Arabic may equal 3-4 words or even sentences in another language so brackets become necessary sometimes).

    This means that Quran ensures that the message of the Book is simple to understand and translatable, quaranteeing that it reaches mankind. This is why the Quran says: “If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, ‘Why did it come down in that language?’ Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, ‘For those who believe, it is a guide and healing’.”

    So for those who believe, the message is clear. Yes you are right that some Arab speakers also need to learn the classical form of the Quran. But the message is apparent to any Arabic speaker. As for the concepts related to historical facts, prophecies, stories or even facts related to the message are further explained in the hadith books.

    Another uniqueness of the Book is that it appeals to both – a layman and a deep thinker. A layman will read with ‘tazakkur-e-Quran’ i.e. reading with its general and apparent meaning. Then there is ‘tadabbur’ where the reader will reflect upon and contemplate on the verses – seeing the context or connections to other verses or chapters. In essence, one verse will educate a layman as well as a thinker.

    Being revealed in Arabic does not mean that it is only for the Arabs. As we can see so many research papers are written in the language of the scientist or doctors but , this does not mean that it is only for people who speak that particular language.

    Learning the language of the book is a big advantage in that one can ponder upon the deeper meanings and enhance his/her understandind.

    I hope, Kasia, I did not bore you with this long explanation. Just wanted to make it clear to you. 🙂

  292. Lynn,

    First , I have been there and lived there and know some things.

    Second, Muhammad did not kill any civilians

    Third, I don’t want to save you or any others , and I don’t believe its my duty to interfere in any country’s business ” as far as it has nothing to affect me “. Unlike, modern western governments , and number of its people , who think they are responsible of saving everybody weather by wars or diplomatic pressure.

    This all of what I have to say and I don’t want to carry on in this discussion.

  293. and for the record, the ” one night stand ” thing, crazy drinking parties and ignorance of the world is my perception of college life in the sates as I experienced for 2 years. Maybe you find it not the totally realistic but at the same time its ok for westerns to perceive Saudi or other Middle-Eastern country as they which and then it is considered as facts!

  294. Lynn…

    Holy Crap! I watched only two videos of Palestinian children’s programming the most recent from 2009…They LITERALLY called for the slaughter of Jews…(not my words but theirs on the TV show.) then they had children CHILDREN call in and talk about murder and killing and destroying…one video the hostess who looks to be about 13 talked about Muslims being superior. “setting the cornerstone for world leadership under Islamic leadership”…This was said by “Mickey Mouse.” “that muslims are masters of the world and without muslims the world would have nothing and be nowhere.”

    I have to tell you I am so blown away by how they are poisoning children’s minds…little little ones who are so impressionable. I have NEVER heard such hate and racism and trying to teach supremacy. No wonder there are issues in the world. I can GUARANTEE that my church does not teach this garbage to my daughter about being better than everyone else. I am left speechless…I knew there were issues but I had no idea that it was institutionalized on TV and fed to babies!

    I am feeling like the naive idiot.

  295. oops, careful Oby, you don’t want to get accused of flip flopping your opinions!! LOL

  296. Ali, Sounds like you hung with a pretty immoral crowd while you were here. It is unfortunate that your parents weren’t able to teach you to choose better friends/associates. But, whatever, I think that MY knowledge gained from my experience here in the States (my whole life) trumps your two years in one college. Wouldn’t you agree?

  297. Lynn…

    Compare that with this childrens Palestinian show called “Shara’a Simsim,”…what a better way to teach kids with a positive role model…something that is much more age appropriate…

    http://www.sesameworkshop.org/aroundtheworld/palestine

  298. Oby, That is great that they have that programming for Palestinian kids!

    Unfortunately, there are probably many who would consider that program which is funded by MY tax dollars as nothing more than American Imperialism.

    ‘Third, I don’t want to save you or any others , and I don’t believe its my duty to interfere in any country’s business ” as far as it has nothing to affect me “. Unlike, modern western governments , and number of its people , who think they are responsible of saving everybody weather by wars or diplomatic pressure’

    Or by funding quality children’s programming?

  299. Lynn,

    I lived in college residence, so it was things I hear and see weekend! I preferred to hang out with ” geeks” because they had less actions going on. And please don’t talk about my parents . its a weak to talk about somebody’s family negatively. Wait . OH snap! you are American , its your duty to judge people!

    You say ( think that MY knowledge gained from my experience here in the States (my whole life) trumps your two years in one college. Wouldn’t you agree? )

    Therefore it doesn’t give any American who lived in Saudi for some to make absolute judgment about the country and argue that her or his views are right , not the locals who lived and still live there? ( not the locals who run to live their whole life in the west and talk about Saudi like they still live there ). I am only using your American’s way of evaluating a culture!!

  300. Lynn…

    I was thinking about that before I posted it but I thought I would take a chance…God forbid these kids be kids and not be taught jihad from childhood…
    🙂

  301. ‘Wait . OH snap! you are American , its your duty to judge people! ‘

    LOL Isn’t this post about the Saudi’s judgement of the morality of the ‘west’?

  302. lynn

    ( Or by funding quality children’s programming? )

    what about supporting the Israeli war machine and crimes ( killing countless number of civilians and establishing settlements ) financially and politically by your Tax money ?

  303. Lynn,

    The Saudis don’t put pressure on their government to change other country’s statues , the Saudis have views but they do not start wars to change governments all over the world ! we have view we keep it to ourselves but do not go around and make people follow our lead like the MODERN Western Governments do.

  304. Lynn,

    Serious question : do you get in discussions about Saudi Arabia or Muslims because you are bored , or because you want to learn and understand them or just you think they need to be enlightened ? I do get in these discussion because I see a lot of misleading info and negative views I don’t see in Saudi Arabia where I live after I settled here. and because of the huge amount of stereotypes I face when I travel which sometimes lead to mistreatment

    .

  305. But they DO fund the propagation of the Wahabbi/Extremist ideology as the ‘true’ Islam. And THAT, my friend, HAS affected me and my family as my daughter was brainwashed by it and went from being a loving and compassionate person to all to a hater after she became Muslim.

  306. So, I guess the answer to your question would be to learn and understand and over the years I have learned but I don’t think I will EVER understand!

  307. well , Lynn, I give up because it seems you have a personal problem and I don’t have anything on my hands to help you. Maybe you should go and see a family consulter or perhaps a psychiatrist. best of luck

  308. No you are not learning any thing because you don’t ask smart questions or ask for explanations, you just judge and insult because of a personal problem you have or or a situation your not happy with.

  309. “Ali.. Maybe you should go and see a family consulter or perhaps a psychiatrist. best of luck”

    Ali…I have the feeling that if you were in the same room with Lynn right about now…you would be on the floor by way or another.

  310. What would a family ‘consulter or psychiatrist do to make me have a better feeling about the state of Islam? Hypnosis so that I can forget everything that I have learned about Islam and it’s history and future?

    But perhaps YOU should make an appointment so that you can learn to deal with the ‘huge amount of stereotypes I face when I travel which sometimes lead to mistreatment ‘

    Either THAT or you could try to understand why people might think the ideology is ‘immoral’ and get over it and stop trying to defend the indefensible. (i.e. the raping and marriage to women(war booty) whose husband and father you just killed in battle)

  311. ‘Ali…I have the feeling that if you were in the same room with Lynn right about now…you would be on the floor by way or another’

    LOL Coolred, you are probably right. I’d have him on the floor in front of the fire screwing his brains out! Cause that’s the way we Americans roll. LOL

  312. What would a family ‘consulter or psychiatrist do to make me have a better feeling about the state of Islam? Hypnosis so that I can forget everything that I have learned about Islam and it’s history and future?

    The family consulter will help get over yourself and the psychiatrist help you understand your personal problems and maybe you should go to college again and start learning about how to research and learn probably. I feel so bad for you old-lady

  313. I wasn’t going write anymore until I finish27-some things on my “to-do” list, but could not resist…

    Lynn, why Ali? Why not me? What does he have that I don’t? Experience counts! Besides, think hot Latino blood.

  314. Ali… I feel so bad for you old-lady

    Screw the screwing part…I think she would have you IN the fire instead of enjoying a leisurely screw in front of it.

  315. C’mon Jay, I am American, the more the merrier, there is no reason to limit my sexual partners. 😉

    Coolred, I’m a lover, not a fighter. And Ali, there ain’t no better lovin’ than granny lovin’!

  316. No wonder Bush got elected twice, so much in common between him and number of Americans . I am glad they ,at last , got the chance to experience the intelligence of the Black man for a change before re-electing another narrow-minded person like Bush

  317. Ali,

    All your 3 different email addresses have been put into moderation. All your comments will be reviewed before they are allowed on the blog. I suggest you stick to one ID and start developing respect for others, if you like your comments to be read in the future.

    Blog Moderator

  318. Bedu,

    It is ok for Lynn to inlet other’s parents and get personal and when I respond , I am the one who has no respect for other ? So the rule here , if your parents got insulted by an American you must accept it! very nice

  319. Ali,

    This is not a debate. Clean up your act and stop using multiple IDs or your comments will go to the trash.

    Blog Moderator

  320. Ali, It seems that there is another cultural misunderstanding here. I don’t know of a single person who would feel that their parents have been insulted if someone says ‘Didn’t you parents teach you…’

    It is very unfortunate that you would feel insulted so easily. I’m so sorry for that. If you want to involve yourself in converstations with people from different cultures you really should try not to get offended so easily by their figures of speech. I would think that you would have been better aquainted with the American manner of speech after going to school here for 2 years. Perhaps you didn’t really spend much time conversing with the locals?

  321. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  322. @Jay, hot latino blood? I had you pegged for eastern european ancestory with your last name. Unless, that’s just a nom de plume, as you can be a bit “prickly” 😉

  323. Kitty! Now you are going to bring my children into this trivial discussion?? How VILE and RUDE!! How LOW can you get bringing innocent children into this?

    I swear!

  324. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  325. Kitty, I guess sarcasm doesn’t translate well.

    Y’all are cracking me UP!

  326. Lynn, Ali and kitty,
    Please do not be mean to each other. There is a fact that we must acknowledge. Western culture is different than Eastern culture and every one is happy of his/her culture just because he is raised up this way. So, I think people should talk about things that are in common instead of investing in the differences between cultures. In every family, there are different opinions about many different issues among the family remembers but the challenge is how to respect each other’s opinions in order to live happily under one ceiling. This means that the family remembers should invest in the similarities to overcome the differences. Simply, you want something and I want something different but none of us knows where/what the good is for both of us. Your life is a moment, so invest this moment in doing something good which is bridging the cultural gap in this context.

  327. Dear Freinds,

    Arguments can be intense but why taking so personal, taking family things in discussion?

    Please control ur anger and have a healthy discussion as said by Medina.

    Muslim bros/sis, dont forget the hadith on patience:

    The strong man is not the one who is strong in wrestling but the one who controls himself in anger.

  328. I think Kitty2010 was trying to be sarcastic and in good fun.
    I don’t think any decent person can make such a comment and really mean it.
    And it’s a good idea, let’s keep this a bit lighthearted.

    I am also shocked at how hot and steamy the discussion is getting here! I had taken most of us to be decent nerds, (especially Jay), locked up with our computers, and devoid of human contact let alone sex!!!!
    I was under the impression we were all moral here….

  329. Muslims do not stop Islam from it’s evil bits. Moderate muslims do not act or condemn when other Muslims do atrocious acts, and also, their own dogma wins out because it orders muslims to strike against non-muslims, keep women covered and at second place to men, etc. it’s mostly Muslims from the west who use the religious metaphor which they have been used to because the Christians have been using it for so long.
    ———————————–

    @Aafke-Art

    U missed my points and links where Muslims condemn terrorism and denied burial of Mumbai terrorists.

    Or Is it repeatative process or am I trying to awake some1 who is not sleeping?

    Regarding covering women, In Indian villages if Hindu women shows hair, in front of elderly person, a woman is considered immoral.

    Bible says to cover , Tourat says to cover, Quran says to cover. When you do not have problems when people go around with bikini, you should not have problem when Muslim women choose to cover as long as u are not forced to do so.

    Give Muslims a break. Let them live their lives and in their culture. You live in ur own life. Just like no one is forcing to change ur way of dressing, u also should not impose ur life to others. For ur info, In Saudi, Dubai, Kuwait men also cover head to toe, why dnt u have problem in that?

  330. That’s why NO religiously based nation should have access to nuclear weapons. They cannot be trusted to act responsibly and rationally.

    —————————————————

    How rationally and responsibly US used neuclear agaisnt innocents? World have been a peaceful place had US didnt interfere in other’s matters?

    Why cant North Korea have neuclear power? It doesnt have relgious govt. Why US is itchy on this?

  331. Nobody should have access to nuclear weapons.
    But: North Korea is an insane super suppressive necrocracy. It is ruled by a dead ”eternal president”.
    You think that is a normal government? Do you think the people in power in North Korea are quite sane and will make responsible decisions? You think that it would be wise to let such deranged people have nuclear power???

    I really think you should read up a bit before you make such bizarre statements.

    *Bible says to cover , Tourat says to cover, Quran says to cover. When you do not have problems when people go around with bikini, you should not have problem when Muslim women choose to cover as long as u are not forced to do so.*

    Exactly, Christianity is based on Judaism, and islam took stuff from both, they are all the same religion really.
    And in case you think I am a believer of any one of these: I am not.

    I cannot believe in a primitive bronze age myth of an invisible sky daddy who has a pathological obsession with sex, and people having sex, and who has sex with whom and when and how. Who allows slavery and the rape of women. An imaginary ”friend” with a phobia for women, and if you have read the respective handbooks: a positive hatred of women.
    And a desperate need to be worshiped.
    A perfect omnipotent being has no need of worship, no need of putting up rules 50.000 years after homo sapiens evolved.

    And as such, everybody can walk around stark naked as far as I am concerned.
    It won’t be a pretty sight, and it will be very uncomfortable given the season, but if there is an invisible skydaddy who made us, he, or she, surely would not mind.
    Because: if we were indeed created by somebody like Allah, Jaweh or the FSM, and he or she did have a problem with naked skin he or she would have let us evolve with our furs intact.
    As we don’t have fur I can only conclude that Jahweh, Allah, or the FSM has no problem whatsoever with naked humans.
    Probably wants us to be naked.

    The ancient Goddess religions understood that a lot better. They had no badly written books and mental mind twists to make them neurotic about normal things like nakedness and sex and women.

    If people really think they need some spiritual rituals, and the idea that there is a magical invisible friend looking after them, and that they need some divine morals to guide them they will be far better off joining a Goddess religion than one of the misogynist, neurotic suppressive Abrahamic religions.
    Especially women!

  332. PS, As I have said many times before, if you manage to make people believe that there is an invisible ”friend” who likes you a lot better if you cover, that you get extra brownie points if you cover, and accidentally, that you will burn in hell if you do not cover, as well that you are giving a clear invitation to all emnt to rape you iif you do not cover, then ther is no free will

    ”free will” has been taken away from the very start.
    If believed tat every man had the right to rape me and that I would be burning in hell forever I would be covering too. I would hate it but I would be too afraid not to.
    This is not ”free will” it is fear. It is mental terrorism to make women believe such nonsense.

    And it is definitely, clearly and demonstrably connected to suppression of women. The correlation is clear.
    We have enough different cultures currently on the planet to see that the more restrictive and unfair to women a culture/religion is, to more women are forced to cover.
    And it is force.
    ”Free will” after brainwashing is still force.

  333. And that also shows how arbitrary these kind of ”divine” rules are.
    The rules change for the worse when repression and unfair treatment of women is stronger.

    Many people understand this and consider restrictions on excessive covering of women valid as part of the allready existing minimal dress restrictions in place and as an important part of combating the marginalization of 50% of the human race.

    The only reason the Abrahamic books enforce covering onto women is because they were made up by men who liked to have it easy and wrote those books to contains laws which make women second class to start with.So they didn’t have to compete with women and their intelligence.
    These books allow rape, slavery and wife beating.
    I think these things are completely wrong and evil.

    So none of these books can have been written, or inspired, by an omnipotent invisible sentient power.

    At least not an honest, caring, fair and good one.

  334. Nobody should have access to nuclear weapons.
    But: North Korea is an insane super suppressive necrocracy. It is ruled by a dead ”eternal president”.
    You think that is a normal government? Do you think the people in power in North Korea are quite sane and will make responsible decisions? You think that it would be wise to let such deranged people have nuclear power???

    I really think you should read up a bit before you make such bizarre statements.
    ——————————————————-

    U smartly ignored my question. But do not consider all are fool.

    Let me reapeat again.

    Does US use neuclear power responsibly and rationally?

  335. I cannot believe in a primitive bronze age myth of an invisible sky daddy who has a pathological obsession with sex, and people having sex, and who has sex with whom and when and how. Who allows slavery and the rape of women. An imaginary ”friend” with a phobia for women, and if you have read the respective handbooks: a positive hatred of women.
    ————————————————————–

    I also asked why u do not have problem when Men covers head to toe in Kuwait, Saudi, Dubai, and why only problem with women? U ignored this question also.

    As per ur above statment, its ok to sex with dogs, bitches, prostitutes, other’s wives, husbands, daughters? As long as two partners consent to do, is it ok? Like sex between mother and his son’s frind? daughter and her father’s freind? with my husband’s friend, my wife’s freind?

    Sex , a man and dog as long as both consent to do? Its what u mean by morality?

  336. respective handbooks: a positive hatred of women.
    ————————————————————–

    Which religion is it? Which relgion allows FORCEFUL rape and rape of slaves?

    As per Islam:

    1) Slavery and their freedom , I mentioned in my previous post in details.

    2)
    a)A man shud keep his wife as queen and a woman shuld treat her husband as king.

    b)In Abu-Dawud, Ibn Ma’jah, Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said –
    “Men who beat their wives are not best amonst u”

    c)Hadith in Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said -“The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behavior, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.”

    d). Allah’s Apostle said, “You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah’s sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your WIFE’s mouth. “sahih Bukhari, vol1,book2,hadith53

    e) The first contact with a woman is with one’s mother, who suffers in the pregnancy,delivery,nursing and rearing of her child. History does not recall a religion or a system which honours the woman as a mother and which raises her, as Islam does. Islam repeatedly commends the woman, and this comes directly after the command to worship and believe in the Oneness of Allah. Allah has made honouring one’s mother a virtue, and He puts forth the mother’s right over that of the father for what she endures in pregnancy, delivery,nursing and raising her children.

    As per Islam a mother’s share is 75% and father’s is 25%

    f)In the Prophet’s last sermon, he exhorted men to

    “be kind to women-you have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you.”

    He also said,
    “Treat your women well, and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers,” and at a different time,

    he said, “The strong man is not the one who can use the force of physical strength, but the one who controls his anger” (Bukhari).

    O MUSLIMS PLEASE TREAT OUR WOMEN WITH KIND.. THEY ARE OUR SISTERS OUR MOTHER OR DUAGHTERS AND WIFE.

    g) 1.”Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive,does not insult her,& does not favor his son over her,God will enter him into Paradise.”(Ibn Hanbal,No.1957)

    2.The Prophet said,”Whoever believes in Allah & the Last Day should not hurt (trouble)his neighbor. And I advise u to take care of the women,for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it,it will break, and if you leave it,it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women.”(Volume 7,Book62,Number 114)

    3.“No Muslim should hate his Muslim wife. If he dislikes some of her qualities,he may find some other qualities that are agreeable.”(Muslim)

    4) Prophet said, “Adhere to my advice about woman that you should treat them fairly.”(At-Tirmidhi)

    5)Groom shuld give dowry to bride:
    “Give to the women(whom you marry) their Mahr(obligatory bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) with a good heart..[Quran 4:4]

    Finally again,

    The Prophet said,”Whoever believes in Allah & the Last Day should not hurt (trouble)his neighbor. And I advise u to take care of the women,for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it,it will break, and if you leave it,it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women and do not shed them into tears as Allah counts their tears.”(Volume 7,Book62,Number 114)

  337. h) Prophet said,”The one who looks after a widow or a poor person is like a Mujahid (warrior) who fights for Allah’s Cause,” Bukhari 64.265

    i)The status of women as mother has been restated in many Ahadis ( Sayings of Muhammad (PBUH)).

    A man came to the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) asking, “Who is most deserving of my care?” He said, “Your mother.” The man asked, “Then who?” He said, “Your mother.” The man asked, “Then who?” He said, Your mother.” The man asked (the fourth time), “Then who?” He said, “Your father. [ Transmitted by Bukhari and Muslim on the authority of Abu Huraira The Pearl and the Coral (Al-Lu’lu’ wal-Marjan) (1652)]

    Al-Bazzar recounts that a man was circumambulating the Ka’bah carrying his mother. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) asked him, “Have you repaid her?” The man said, “No, not even for one of her moans (i.e. one of the moans of labour, delivery and so on) [Transmitted by Al-Bazzar (1872)]

    As to be good to her, it means treating her well, respecting her, humbling oneself in front of her, obeying her without disobeying Allah, seeking her satisfaction and pleasure in all matters, even in a holy war. If it is optional, he must have her permission, for being good to her in a type of jihad. [ Jihad is the struggle (physical, mental, psychological, spiritual, etc.) to preserve the purity and practice of Islam. ]

    A man came to the Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allah, I want to fight and I want your advice.” He asked him, “Have you a mother?” The man said, “Yes.” He said, “Do not leave her because Paradise is under her feet. [ Transmitted by Al-Nisaai, 6/11; Ibn Majah, 1/278 and Al-Hakim. It is amended and approved by Al-Dhahaby, 4/151, on the authority of Muaaweya Ibn Jammah.]

  338. i)Even in War, Islam says to fight only Army not
    innocents,women,children,old people

    “Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or
    religious people,” and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, “Do
    not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.”

    Now from which hate site and propaganda u say that islam is against women when its Islam which brought right for women?

    See non-Muslim wiki site:

    William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who promoted women’s rights and improved things considerably. Watt explains: “At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible – they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons.” Muhammad, however, by “instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce, gave women certain basic safeguards.”[13]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

  339. Hi Lynn,

    U have made a small and simple thing so complex. U asked me why terrorist attack. I gave sincere reply, what are the possibilities. For u analysis of possible root cause is excuse? U mean we shuld be blind to the root cause of today’s terrible problems?

    Regarding radical masjid checking it happend in pakistan. Pakistan Army destroyed “Lal Masjid” and killed terrorists.

    Reagarding who is innocent and who are terrorists/criminals depends upon from which agle u see.
    During British rule in India, those Indian bombers who killed british army were considered terrorists by British govt and hanged them but India still salute them as freedom fighters. But, those Christian British rulers who killed innocent women/children Indians were considered good rulers. Similarly hamas are Freedom fighters + democratically elected govt for Palestine and terrorist for world. For 100,000 homeless Iraqi prostitutes, 10 million homeless/illeterate, dying Iraqi children, near and dear ones of those civilian Iraqis – 100,000 killed, Bush is biggest terrorist but for many Americans he may be great ruler. For Vietnamese, North Koreans, Afghanese, Iraqis US is the creator of all forms of violence, human right violation, hate mongers, terrorist creator, Taliban creator, Al-Qaida creators. So, it depends on which prism u use to see some1.

    Kindly keep in others shoes too and then think. Well you guys have been attacking Muslims/Islam/Prophet Muhammad PBUH and asking Muslims only for all sorts of problems, and Muslims have been replying only. Still Muslims are considered intolerant, fanatic, illeterate people. As u see, Muslims never abuse Jesus PBUH, Christianity or Bible or call any Christian illeterate unlike u guys do.

    Let me also ask you. Kindly reply with patience. You said I missed a lot in History. Well, I didnt study hisotry in university as it was not part of my engineering course. U seem to have a strong infatuation on Muhammad PBUH but missed every other things. But, I think u might be having better knowledge on history apart from 1400 year old history of lawlesness tribes. Kindly reply each question.

    1) US trained Taliban/Al-Qaida. Why US creates terrorist orgs and funded them? Why christians and US do not blame US – a terrorist creator but why blame Muslims when same terrorists starts using their trained skills today?

    2) Is it ok to bomb while ur are sleeping and whole ur cities/village becoz some criminals is hiding in ur city/village? And finally cities/villages destroyed, innocents killed and made homeless but criminal cant be caught? Is it ok? This is happend to Afghanistan? What kind of reaction u expect from those innocent victims who never ever committed any crime in their life, who never ever visited US in their lives?

    3) What kind of reaction/response can u expect from those millions of homeless victims of US bombing in Iraq? What was the reason to kill, homeless, foodless and make them prostitutes by US?
    What if ur daughter is made prostitute to earn two times food? what if ur son/daughter is killed/raped?

    4) Islamic bombers/terrorists came after 1990 illegal Gulf war. Before I didnt hear any kind of Muslim terrorists. Can u plese remind me any such islamic terrorists (kindly avoid going back to 1400 years back of tribal era when there were no social system)? Was Quran revealed in 1990 or after? Why sudden change in this world, a world of terroirsts?

    5) U said hamas, why Jews were masccared in all over Christian world? Why then Christians forcefully made Jews home in Isreal, in Arab land illegally? Why not in some Europe or WEst? Why those who fight to get justice and freedom in Palestine are considered terrorists and why illegal occupants and killers Israels are considered peaceful and supported by US and christian world? Why peaceful christian (unlike Islam) massacred Jews who are not idol worshippers? Is it sign of tolerance and peace of christianity unlike Islam?

    6) Forget, 1400 years old history, who killed 200,000 innocent Muslims in Bosnia in 1995? Who made Muslim women(including 9-12 years old) sex slave? Who turned Mosques to Churches? Where were protectors of humanity – US and UNO? Who enjoys sex slave? Chrisitan or Muslims?

    7) Since 60 years, Chrisitian terroists are killing non christians in North East India and forcefully converting them, bobming in train, market. US is funding NSCN and other Christian terrorists? Christian missionaries reach nook and corner villages/cities/towns to spread christianity in all over world by spending billions of dollars, what Christians, priests, bishops, popes have been doing to stop chrisatian terrorism(Muslims issue a lot of fatwas and conferences agasint terroism, deny burial of terrorists but still Muslims are asked non-stop and say that good Muslims do not stand agaisnt terrorists)? Is it bible problem that Christian always try to convert any1 and kill non-Christians in India and other world? If not bible problem, will u blame some prophet?

    Is a common Christian responsible and responsive for christian terrorism just like a common Muslim is responsive?

    Here is for ur referece:

    http://muslim-responses.com/Christian_Terrorism_in_India/Christian_Terrorism_in_India_

    See almost everyday killing of Christian terroirst in India. U can find more in google (type “Christian terrorism in India” )

    How Christian terrorists are so powerful and rich in India? Muslim terrorists are killed the moment they are seen/arrested. Why govt of India do cease fire and go for negotiation with Christian terroirst? What abt Lebanese Christian terrorists and others in all over world?

    List of Christian terroirsts in world:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

    8) Who killed innocent civilians and clonised Algeria, Morocco, India, Paksitan, bangladesh, Malaysia, Tunisia, Egypt, Philippines? Did Muslims do this massacre or Christians? What is the definition of peace and terrorism ? Who is responsible for this? Christians, Christianity, Bible or who?

    9) Why christians burn Quran and make cartoon of Prophet Muhammad PBUH to show intolerance towards a reglion? Is thre any incident where Muslims burnt Bible or abuse Jesus PBUH? Why so intolerant towards other faiths? Is it the teaching of Jesus?

    10)Where are those red-Indian who lived in America?

    11) kindly let me know who are the culprits of following millions of innocent victims? How many are killed by Muslim terrorists and how many by christians?

    Lets not remember only selective history:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

    Just like you have been asking and hearing reply from Muslims, I hope u also will give some sensible reply with patience. I think we should learn to reply and accept other’s questions too but not only asking questions to others and finding other’s weakness..

    JJ Kacktuz, u can also reply if u want.

  340. Dear JJ kacktuz,

    I do not know which Hadith u are refering to. Plz note that we Muslims trust Quran and reliable hadith like Tirmidhi, Sahi Muslim, Sahi Bukhari, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood. There are many hadiths like reliable, unreliable, weak, strong, hadith before Quran and After Quran. So, u cant quote any baseless hadith that we Muslims do not trust. I showed verses like “there is no compulsion in relgion”, then u said I ignore law of apostacy, that I have replied with links. But ur mind doesnt allow u to stop and come with competely different thing to bash Islam. Muslims do not associate Muhammad PBUH with Allah but we respect him.

    Quran doesnt say Muslims not to think as u misinterpret. Muslim do not question existence of God and his messenger becoz there is no dooubt on it. Can u ask who is the creator of God?

    U said Muslims are not alloed to think by Quran. What about Pope’s refusal to use condoms for AIDS protection and now changing his stand based on political and public out cry? Can christianity and bible be changed based on public’s desire and change of momentum time to time, place to place?

    Well plz reply following questions:

    1) There is no single Verse in Bible, where Jesus PBUH said that He is God and worship him, then why christians worship him? Keeping his idol/statue in Churches? Why asking from Jesus not from God?

    Dont u think that its rediculous to say that Muslims do idol worship like pagan when christians are actually doing ? What does it mean “Jesus said, “Come to me…”?
    Is he God, why should people go Him? Is it in Bible?
    And an intelligent mind doesnt need statue/idol for concentration.

    2) Why Jesus is considered as Son of God? If he is born without father but Marry PBUH only? If u say begotten son, means son produced by sexual intercourse. (begotten means (of offspring) generated by procreation).In that case, Adam PBUH will be greater/bigger Son of God because he was born without both mother and father as per Bible?

    3) Jesus PBUH was circumcised on 8th day as per Bible. Christian means a person who follows Bible, then why Christians do not circumcise? But, All Muslim men circumcise. Who is more christian ? Christian themselves or Muslims?

    4) As per Christianity eating pork is not allowed as mentioned in:
    -Book of Liability guest, chapter no 11,verse no. 728
    -again Book of Deuteronomy, chapter 14, verse 8,
    -Again Book of Elijah,Chapter 65, verse 225

    But, Muslims do not eat pork. Who is more christian ? Christian themselves or Muslims?

    5)As per Christianity, driking alcohol is also not allowed:
    Book of Proverbs chapter no. 20 ,verse no 1.

    But, Muslims do not drink Alcohol. Who is more christian ? Christian themselves or Muslims?Who respect Jesus PBUH him more? Muslims or Christians?

    6) Gospel of John, chapter no. 16, verse 11-14.

    “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
    come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me”.

    Who is refering to here? We Muslims consider it as Prophet Muhammad PBUH, last prophet of mankind.

    7) As per Christianity, Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10 says veil/Hijab for women, then why Christian women do not cover except for some poor nuns? Why mocking at Muslim women when they follow Bible, Quran and Jesus’s teachings?

    But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.(Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10)

    Kindly see following video that u cant afford to miss.
    Lets see who follows more Jesus PBUH, Christian or Muslims.

  341. @JJ Kacktuz,

    Cruelty and Violence in the Bible:

    a)And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.–Ezekiel 23:25

    b) In the New Testament, Jews “plan to stone Jesus, they plot to kill him; in turn, Jesus calls them liars, children of the Devil.” Dont u christians have problems when Jews are called devils? Or do u have some excuse apart from mocking only Muhammad PBUH?

    c) And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.–Ezekiel 23:25

    d) another violent, virulent, 1199 verses from bible

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    One similarity between Quran and Bible:

    The LORD is a man of war. Exodus 15:3

    Fight in the way of Allah. Quran 2:244

    There are 520 violent verses in Quran and more than 1200 in Bible. What u say? Which one is more violent? Any intelligent human being can reply with patience. In between I am a follower of Jesus PBUH and respect him from heart. I see Bible in context but dnt see as bashing stuff or violent manual. My intention is not to bash any relgion or prophet but to open the eyes for those who keep abusing others endlessly night n day.

    Please dont forget to click above link and see how violent Bible is!!

  342. *I also asked why u do not have problem when Men covers head to toe in Kuwait, Saudi, Dubai, and why only problem with women? U ignored this question also.

    As per ur above statment, its ok to sex with dogs, bitches, prostitutes, other’s wives, husbands, daughters? As long as two partners consent to do, is it ok? Like sex between mother and his son’s frind? daughter and her father’s freind? with my husband’s friend, my wife’s freind?

    Sex , a man and dog as long as both consent to do? Its what u mean by morality?*

    Waw! What a distasteful enumeration of deviant sexual acts!!!
    I wonder what goes on inside your mind!

    That’s another thing I blame the Abrahamic religions fo: Not only an obsession with sex, but actually with revolting deviant sex-acts. And the effect that it is always in the minds of the believers.
    You can see this obsession with sex permeating throughout this whole thread.
    Every comment about the percieved immorality of ”the West” is about sex.

    In my world sex is of fairly small importance, I don’t think of sex all the time. And when I think of ”morals” I think about stuff like being truthful, fair in my dealings, kindness, help and support to those who need it, being good to animals, standing up for what i consider truth, and fight bigotry, suppression, inequality, unfairness, etc. etc.

    Actually, sex doesn’t come into ”morals” at all. Having sex or not having sex, and with whom (Or ”what”, as some people here are so obsessed with deviant inter species sex) really doesn’t have anything to do with ”morality”
    It will be automatically included in real morals, like being honest, honoring your word (for couples for example). being a decent, ”moral” human being also means you care for, look after, and protect children, who need adults to do that for them. That automatically precludes pedophile sex.
    The moral that you should do nothing to cause harm to other people automatically includes raping women. because that is very damaging to women.

    So sex, as an act, really has no moral value.

    So my problem with the abrahamic religions is that they make sex into a moral, which it can never be. Also they condone enslavement of people and having sex with the woman slaves (also rape). And beating women, and marrying very young little girls to old men, etc.

    Another big problem is that they make the adherents of the Abrahamic religions obsessed about sex, the more ”religious” they are, the bigger the problems, culminating into a kind of sex related insanity. Which then results into insane stuff like covering women until only one eye is showing because them men have lost all power of self control. And everything the believers can think about is sexual, including sex with animals.
    So they talk about it all the time, and ”morals” are tied to sex, and people get tortured, imprisoned and even killed for having sex, etc, etc.

    Total insanity and very immoral as sex isn’t something moral in the first place. only what you do with it/use it for can be moral or immoral.

    And because many people in ”the West” understand the non-morality of sex, and do not believe that an invisible sky daddy really is having an opinion or keeping tabs, or is there at all, they have sex with whom they like, more or less responsibly.

    And because in Saudi Arabia (amongst other countries) morality as such is considered to be predominantly about sex and when and with whom you have it, naturally the ”West” is considered to be immoral.

  343. Also you are cherry picking. yes there are decent verses in the Quran and hadith, I know them, Unfortunately there are also some very bad verses, especially against women, and in the Quran the later bits, always worse than the earlier bits, are obrigated. So they don’t count.

    And it’s useless comparing the bible to the Quran as they belong to largely the same religion.

    And because you like numbers, ”rape” is mentioned zero, 0, never, mentioned in the quran.
    A huge omission in an all compassing book.

  344. @MD,

    You Ask so many questions of others and demand answers. You also dive into many topics with long messages. However, I have asked you 2 simple questions, a few days ago and you have not responded. Is it that you cannot explain it? Here they are again. I am looking for direct short response please:

    “Under NO circumstances will I do any of the following:
    – Believe women should be treated a degree lower than men
    – Marry someone underage
    – Allow the execution of captured men
    – Enslave people
    – Take a captured a woman as my concubine slave
    – Etc.
    The question you need to ask yourself, how come a simple person knows these basic morals, but the greatest man and one that was guided by the wisdom of the creator of the universe did not know or follow these simple morals? Second question, do you agree that these acts I listed above are immoral under any circumstances?”

  345. Yes Md, as long as it does not harm anyone, and all parties consent, they it is all moral and you have go ahead with it.

  346. Moq, excellent list, violating that list is immoral whatever your excuse is.

    MD, You know, it all boils down to this:

    Who owns your body

    -1 ‘It is immoral to dictate to other people what they should do with their own body.
    As long as the person is an adult of sound mind who can make their own decisions.
    It is immoral to control another persons body.

    -2 ‘un-consensual sex is immoral
    That includes sex with women who do not want to have sex.
    A child cannot give consent, because it’s brain is immature.
    An animal cannot give consent, it is not sentient.

    -3 Sex with family members is wrong, because you will be inbreeding diseases into your progeny.
    It is also immoral because the parents can put undue influence on the child. And that goes for any forced marriage, it is immoral.

    -4 You cannot violate other promises you have made. If you promise to one partner you will be loyal and they will be the only one you cannot have sex or marry another person because you will have violated their trust and your word.
    And that is immoral.

    What is really more immoral?
    To force somebody to do things with their body they don’t want?
    Or two equal adults who have consensual sex because that they want?

    The only reason we have this discussion in the first place is a warping of morality. It is objective morality.

    The dogma of a religion which doesn’t support these morals above is wrong, is immoral.
    Issues with sex in patriarchal religions are due to the teachings of those religions. There is no way you can make it logic, or moral.

  347. Md. Ali Shah: ‘…A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God.’

    Do Saudi men UNcover their heads to pray?

  348. Md. Ali Shah : ‘As per ur above statment, its ok to sex with dogs, bitches, prostitutes…’

    I have to admit, my husband does seem to enjoy sex with his bitch! 😉

  349. Md Ali Shah: Watt explains: “At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible – they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons’

    Didn’t Mohammed’s wife Khadija own a business that she hired Mohammed to run for her? How did she come to own that business if she was not allowed to own property or inherit anything?

  350. Ali, You said: ( do you believe that it is immoral for a man, even in the time of war, to take the daughter and wife of men he has killed on the battlefield as his own wife the same day that her people were killed? )

    If this was 1000 years ago, maybe it was not a problem at there time. But if the happened in 1990s or something , I will considered immoral’

    So, it WAS ok when Mohammed did it 1400 years ago but it is not now so therefore, morality DOES change. Could it be possible that we also change the morality of women covering? Perhaps it is now ok for women to have more than one sexual partner (DNA test can tell us who father is these days if THAT is the issue). We could go on and on if we accept that morality can change with the times.

  351. Reading between the lines, I believe Ali has relocated to Saudi Arabia from Pakistan or perhaps India. He has fully embraced Wahabism Islam. I am praying for him too as his email address is literally the word “terrorist.” I will not share the address since I do not do that but felt it was important to mention as these factors give us clear indications to his ideology. It is likely his mind is not open to dialogue unlike others who we may always agree to disagree but at least can still discuss a wide variety of issues without taking or making them personal.

  352. We certainly did not need to know his e-mail address to know that his mind is not open to dialog or critical thinking.

  353. Waw! What a distasteful enumeration of deviant sexual acts!!!
    …….
    So sex, as an act, really has no moral value.
    —————————————————-
    @Aafke-Art,

    Dont u think that above two statement of urs are contradictory?

    1) If sex is nothing to do with moral, then what is the problem with any kind of sex with any relation be it father-daughter, dog-man and any kind of unimaginable sex as long as the two partners are consenting?

    2) If sex is nothing to do with moral, why so many divorces in West and Europe becoz husband caught wife having sex with her ex and wife caught husband with ex?

    3) There should not be any kind of PROHIBITION in sex if sex is nothing to do with moral, right?

    U also mentioned very nice thing like truth, justice and so and so.
    But, for ur info Abrahmic relgion (Bible, Quran, Tourat) doesnt talk only abt sex but many other ways of life too.

    One example:

    “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do ” (4:135)

  354. @MD,

    You Ask so many questions of others and demand answers. You also dive into many topics with long messages. However, I have asked you 2 simple questions, a few days ago and you have not responded. Is it that you cannot explain it? Here they are again. I am looking for direct short response please:

    “Under NO circumstances will I do any of the following:
    – Believe women should be treated a degree lower than men
    – Marry someone underage
    – Allow the execution of captured men
    – Enslave people
    – Take a captured a woman as my concubine slave
    – Etc.
    The question you need to ask yourself, how come a simple person knows these basic morals, but the greatest man and one that was guided by the wisdom of the creator of the universe did not know or follow these simple morals? Second question, do you agree that these acts I listed above are immoral under any circumstances?”

    ————————————————————-

    MoQ,
    Sorry, I didnt see ur posts. But surprising thing is u didnt ask similar questions to JJ and others like him who always ask questions to others. I always replied but not questioning.

    – Believe women should be treated a degree lower than men

    Its ur understanding problem, a degree lower than men means man has to take care of everything from food to clothing to car to house for woman and so men cant force woman to take care of family’s requirement. If she does its her greatness but not pressurise her.
    Financially, A girl has to take care by father, a wife has to take care by husband, when old she has to take care by her son. So, she doesnt need to wory about her life from birth to death.

    – Marry someone underage

    Where Quran says that “U should marry an underage girls”?
    It was tribe culture of the time but not compulsory.
    Aysha became an Islamic scholar for 40 years. Do u see any hadith (out of thousands) narrated by Ayesha RA against this marriage or Prophet Muhammad’s mistreatment of women? Its God’s chosen so that some1 close to Prophet can spread the message of Islam.

    – Allow the execution of captured men

    Kindly read my post on slavery with patience. Evern when the master slap a slave, Prophet ordered to free the slave.

    – Enslave people

    Kindly read my post on slavery with patience.

    – Take a captured a woman as my concubine slave

    THere was no forced sex with any1 in Islam be it slave or any1. What u said was happend with 200,000 Bosnian Muslim women recently in 1995. Kindly read my post on slavery with patience. I am tired to repeat same thing. To explan something complex one sentence or paragraph is not enough. Keep the the period of that tribal era in mind when u read my posts explained previously.

    For full understanding on women right in Islam see above Wikipedia link (non Muslim source)

    and following links, u will find all kinds of rights and questions related to woman in Islam.

    http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=687469&tid=5210807396176405551

  355. Md. Ali Shah : ‘As per ur above statment, its ok to sex with dogs, bitches, prostitutes…’

    I have to admit, my husband does seem to enjoy sex with his bitch! 😉

    ——————————————————

    HAHA NICE ONE BUT I DIDNT MEAN THAT

  356. Didn’t Mohammed’s wife Khadija own a business that she hired Mohammed to run for her? How did she come to own that business if she was not allowed to own property or inherit anything?

    ————————————————————–

    Khadija was a business woman who selflessly sacrififced her money to spread Islam. She was the most lovely wife of prophet too. When she married Prophet she was 40 years old and already devorced 2 times, had already 2 kids but prophet Muhammad was only 25 ( Amazing a sex hungry man married at 25 that too a widow having 2 kids. Now a days kids break virginity at 13 ). He loved her so much that Prophet PBUH remained with are for 25 years till she died when he was 50 years old. He was pained that his wife left him. He remained unmarried for 2 years till 52 years old (again amazing a sex hungry man remained unmarried for 2 years ). After 52 years, he married a number of wives to do freindship and end enimity with different tribes, to protect the dignity to widows and poor woman who had nothing to survive, even he married a 80 year old woman. He was an exmple that world should follow. “Do not look down Woman” – was shown by him.

  357. Also it was KHadija RA who proposed Prophet PBUH, not the other way.

  358. HI Carol,

    Are u refering to me or some other Ali? As my name also contains “Ali” , little bit ambiguous.

    If u are refering to me, I will be happy if you give me any kind of suggestions. I am human being I can commit mistake.

    Guys, plz address me “Azad”. Its URDU/Persian name – means Freedom.

    Thanks.

  359. @Lynn,

    Ur above quotation is from Wiki link not mine. And in between, exception was always there and is always there today.

  360. Ali/Azad,

    No; I was not referring to you!!

    Your name “Azad” reminds me of when I visited a hospital in Dohuk, Iraq. It was named “Azadi Hospital” and I remember the hospital director telling me it meant ‘Freedom Hospital.’ Whereas similar sounding Asad means Lion!

    I do believe that you, Ali, are sincere in your views and welcome the opportunities for a two way dialogue where you may not change your own views but will also listen to the opposing views of others.

  361. @Lynn,

    Ur above quotation is from Wiki link not mine. And in between, exception was always there and is always there today

    Are you talking about the link about the state of Muslim women pre-Islam? Can you please explain the reason that you posted it if it is not yours and you do not agree with it.

    If you DO agree with it. Then my question remains: How did she come to own that business if she was not allowed to own property or inherit anything?

    The fact that SHE proposed to him has no relevance here either.

    ‘amazing a sex hungry man remained unmarried for 2 years’

    Why is that so amazing when he could have sex with all that his right hand possessed anyway?

  362. Bedu

    I am 100% Saudi and about my email it is a joke , do you really think a real terrorist or person who has their ideology will label him self as ” terrorist ” ? perhaps as hero or something? I made it for fun!! its not my school or work email ! I didn’t take it to the personal level but you must say is the one with the Arabic name who is closed and don’t understand and has no respect but never the one with the western name ! What is more funny is that you made assumptions without really reading between lines , would be with that kind of ideology if I listen to Arabic and old-school hip-hop music ?

    Again I really regret starting commenting here in the first place because it is clear that its ok for people with Bush-kind views to attack others personally but when one try to respond he or she is a terrorist and the blogger will start assume about his life story!

    IF you understand Arabic , read this

    انا سعودي اصلا من مدينة الجبيل ومن ذوي البشرة السمراء وافتخر بسعوديتي وحاولت المشاركة هنا لتقريب وجهات النظر لكن من الواضح ان بعض المعلقين عندك في مدونتك هدفهم فقط اهانة الاسلام والتقليل من الثقافة السعودية والتنقيص من قدرها وانا اسف جدا ان ارى اراء بوش وغيره من المتخلفين الامريكان تطرح هنا ك فكرة اساية ومن الوضح ان العنصرية موجودة هنا والاساءة للاسلام مسموحة

  363. Lynn, I don’t think he could. Kadisha was rich, and from a very important family. As she had the money and the power I think there would be no hanky-panky for Mohammed.

    Mecca had a Goddess cult, many people cam from all over for pilgrimage for different gods, but three Goddesses were worshiped especially; Al Uzza, Al Manat and Allat.
    The whole place just reeks of a mother goddess cult: the cave the well which never dries, the black stone from the sky…. Those are mother goddess cult object all over the planet and through all ancient times. To have all these things together in one place makes it like Mother Goddess central. The guardians of the kaaba used to be seven women. Now it’s seven men of course. This explans the ancient importance of the place for pilgrimages.
    Pilgrimage was big big business for the Meccans way before Islam was invented. They were pretty tolerant too, everybody was welcome to mecca for their own gods, including the Muslims.

    And Mohammed wasn’t so interested in it in the beginning; he had his heart set on Jerusalem. All the earliest mosques were orientated towards Jerusalem.

    Only when Mohammed realized Jerusalem was out of his reach did he change towards mecca, and all the mosques then changed orientation towards mecca.
    And after a few years he forbade the place to anybody except his own crowd. Very intolerant.

    Anyway, in a Goddess cult women are naturally always treated with respect and valued. So maybe some ignorant desert tribes treated their women badly, but not the sophisticated people from the rich cities, and especially not those who followed the Goddess cults.

    Md, If you had actually read my post you would have gotten all the answers you just asked me. I am not going to repeat myself, you can read the post again.

  364. @MD,

    You do not answer the questions adequately, you build a strawman then answer to it.

    – On the question of woman being a degree lower, you went into the circular logic of a man supporting a woman, thus he can be higher than her. I do not have an issue of people choosing to accept that in a relationship, I just do not think it should be a LAW. Islam and your prophet specifically regulated who has control. That is the issue I am talking about specifically. Is it your moral to accept that a woman should be a degree lower than you by default? You forget that in Islam a woman gets 1/2 the inheritance of a man, half the testimony, etc. Islam basically treats a woman lower than a man in responsibility and in status. I want you to state your position clearly, is that part of your morals.

    – On the age of marriage, I never said Islam requires it (a strawman argument on your part), My question is do you accept that a man can marry an under age girl under any circumstances. Do you think that is Moral?

    – On the Slavery issue, asking a person to treat a slave nicely does not relieve you of answering the question about trading human beings for money and positions. Now do you think trading humans is Moral? Your prophet not only kept existing slaves, he also participated in making new slaves.

    – You have not answers to the issue of allowing the killing of captured men.Is that an immoral act? Your prophet allowed the slaughter of the captured men of Banu Quraizah.

    – Regarding the Bosnian issue, Explaining one immoral act with another immoral act does not advance your argument. That is another strawman argument. In my view both are immoral.

    – “Keep the the period of that tribal era in mind when u read my posts explained previously.”
    Again, my argument is if you leave your prophet as a tribal leader that acted like the rest of the tribal leaders of his time, then it is OK as it will just become an interest into the dark history of previous eras. The issue you have is that Islam calls for the emulation of the acts of the prophet and that he is the greatest example to mankind acting with guidance from the creator of the universe. Once you put a person in such revered position, then arguments against his morals even by todays standards are valid.

    I will make you a deal here, you and other Muslims leave him in the pages of history and do not expect the world to revere/respect his message and behavior and I will not talk about his morality. Are you prepared to do that?

    Note all my questions are really simple Yes/No. I am trying to get to your moral positions. Justifying is not necessary. Every society has dark periods, so I do understand the historic concept. I have issues with applying these old morals in today’s society based on the emulation of a historic figure.

  365. Bedu,

    And specking about ” terrorism ”

    ” because you are American , wear a fancy suit and call your self a president doesn’t make any less of a terrorist “

  366. Ali,

    Now that you have come forward and identified yourself as the one with the email address which is the word “terrorist” I want to know why? Don’t you realize that would draw undue and unusual attention to you and merit speculation?

    I had assumed you may not have been a Saudi because one of your comments had the statement “now that I am here…”

    I’m not fighting or arguing with you; that’s not my way.

  367. I would love to see the answers to Moq’s latest questions in simple yes and no’s by Md and ALi and Sarah, if they dare to answer them.

    But I don’t think so, I bet we will get more strawman arguments and sex tales.

    For your information: a ”strawman argument” is: an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

  368. ‘I am 100% Saudi and about my email it is a joke , do you really think a real terrorist or person who has their ideology will label him self as ” terrorist ” ? perhaps as hero or something? I made it for fun!! ‘

    And I’M the one that needs to talk to a ‘family consulter or psychiatrist’? Sad, really. It isn’t fair that you should have to go around feeling that others think you are a terrorist when in reality that is only a delusion. I don’t think you are a terrorist and I doubt that anyone else on here thinks you are either. Do you have the potential to become one? Given your amount of anger and self delusion and literal interpretation of Islam then I suppose it IS a possibility but I have no evidence to suggest that you are one now.

  369. are you for real ? I really give up , it seems like Bush logic here

  370. Oh, was I wrong? You really ARE a terrorist? I don’t understand what you want from us.

    Can you please define ‘Bush logic’ because I never thought he had enough intelligence to use logic. Wait, which Bush are we talking about?

  371. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  372. @Carol,
    I have never ever thought a day that you may treat one of your visitors in your blog by this way. Are you trying to say that Ali is a terrorist?!!!!!!

    Also you raised a point about Wahabism, are you saying that Saudis are terrorists because the so called Wahabism is fully or partially embraced in Saudi?! I think you need to explain this point further because what you said implies a very extreme position.

    @aafke,
    You raised good points in your discussion of Abraham’s three religions. I have two questions for you and a deal. Do you trust the human mental ability to see things well in reference to the universe, human beings, Divine message, revelation, etc? What is more dangerous, religious dogma or rationalism/logic?

    If you are able to speak to dead people and tell me in details about their situations and how they live, I will make of you a prophet.

  373. Seriously Kitty? It’s unfortunate that you would allow yourself to get SO riled up.

  374. Medina, I think you need to go back and re-read some posts because you completely misread things here and are now making accusations based on that. No one here has called ANYone a terrorist. Carol pointed out her concerns about his sincerity because he uses the word terrorist as his e-mail address.

    See, in OUR culture, mature adults would not make light of such a serious issue such as terrorism.

    It’s not really the same as the blacks calling each other the n word. What is the danger in making light of a word like that? Not the same as an Arab or Muslim walking around making light of terrorism. It makes it look like you think terrorism is a cool or funny thing.

  375. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  376. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  377. Medina, sure.
    1- What do you mean? there is no divine message, there is no revelation, these things are invented by humans. The universe is not a thinking entity, at least there is no proof it is. So there is no message, no revelation. Until you proof to me that the universe is a thinking entity there can be only observation.

    About the human mind,: if there is only observation, then the human mind is all we have to go by, to record and analyze observation. So yes, human observation is the only thing we can go by.

    2- Religious dogma of course.
    Religion is the development of human rational, but it is at the level of 1400 or more years ago.
    All religions, ideologies and dogma’s are invented by humans.The problem is that most religions are quite unique in that their dogmas are constructed to stop you from utilizing new knowledge. It stops people from changing, from developing.
    I trust that we can have better rationale now, with all our knowledge then religion can provide.
    The proof is all around you.

    About the dead.
    Why do you think anybody could speak to dead people?
    Dead people don’t live anywhere, they are dead.
    Dead people don’t speak, they are dead.
    Dead people do not exist.
    Not anymore.
    If you have proof that dead people exist, show me.

    So, back to you Medina, can you in return give a couple of ”yes” and ”no” answers to Moq’s questions about what is moral? I would really like to see your opinion on those questions and yes or no should be easy.

  378. Seriously, Kitty, grow up or take a pill or whatever it is you need to settle yourself down.

  379. Oh, and for the record, I call myself a bitch because I AM one. I thought that was clear to all here. Perhaps your definition is different than mine. Where are you from?

  380. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  381. @Lynn,
    Please take your breath and things easily. I asked Carol and I think she can answer for herself if she does not want to make the door wide opened for more speculations even though your little sieve can not cover the sun in the daylight.

    @aafke,
    You did not answer me. Revelations, Universe, human beings are evidences proving to me that there is God, there is creator, there is someone created us. I call the creator Allah because of the revelation. I want you to disapprove the revelation by giving proofs that can discredit revelations such as there is no life after death, no paradise or hell. So, I am offering to you to speak to dead people and tell me what happened to them. If they are not alive and there is nothing such as hell or paradise etc, then I will believe you that the revelations are fake but this will not disapprove that there is creator even if you speak to dead people. You are arguing against revelations and you want me to expose myself to hell after death? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you fighting my beliefs while you have no proofs discredit revelations? Do not you think that you are doing something very bad to me by preaching against my faith?

    Regarding your request, I do not accept the theme of this article, I do not believe that Saudis believe that the west is immoral and I consider this article a misleading one. Saudis do not use the term immoral, Saudis use the terms, haram, and sins, forbidden when they describe some of western behaviours such as pornography, adultery, etc. I also believe that adultery and pornography are also sins according to Christianity and I know it is socially unacceptable partially, especially in Europe. I will give you an example, my next door neighbour is living with someone for more than 15 years and they have kids. Officially and socially, they are not married but they live together, de facto. When she told me about this for the first time, I was really shocked but I have never thought of it as something immoral. The only thing that comes to my mind is her kids and her rights and how socially this situation can be accepted. Regarding her kids, I was thinking how they are going to face the society; can they say that their parents are not married? Does this situation affect their opinions about their parents when they know that such thing is not welcome socially or religiosly? This was my main concern. So, I was thinking that my next door lady is doing something may harm her kids psychologically and socially in long term. Regarding her rights, I wondered what if this guy breaks up with her now? She will take care of her kids alone? I felt this is unsafe way to bring up kids. But I have never thought of it as something immoral. I just think of it as something not acceptable socially because I am not religiously oriented. If I were oriented religiously, I will say this is haram, sin, repent my friend plz and get marry now. I may ask her, why you are doing this to yourself and your kids? fear God my friend etc but it will not be described as something immoral.

  382. last point, ratonalism/logic is more dangerous than religious dogma in my opinion.

  383. Medina, can you explain how and why you think that rationalism is more dangerous than dogma? (keeping in mind that dogma can teach people to judge, hate and even kill others that do not agree)

    Kitty, I didn’t ask you what half of your nationality was or what languages you speak. i asked where you come from? Of course, if you don’t want to answer that that is fine. I was just curious. You do seem fairly young but I realise that in some places young adults take a bit longer to mature.

  384. Medina, everything you do in life is a rational decision.
    Religion is claiming there is a god, there is an afterlife, dead people talk.
    I can proof there is gravity, you cannot prove there is hell, god, dead people talking.
    I don’t accept the claims you make, the burden of proof is on you, for you are the one who is making the claim. I say I do not know, I find no proof.
    You can believe in talking dead people, heaven and hell and revelations that is fine by me. You can worry about what your invisible friend thinks that is fine by me.
    But then you take it outside into the real world and claiming you have this revelation from a god, that requires people other than yourself to behave in a certain way, without any proof!
    The problem is you take this idea that some invisible entity is giving you rules to follow, but that is not enough, other people have to follow those rules too.

    We don’t argue or have problems with Jainism or Buddhism, because they do not enforce other people to follow their invisible friend’s rules.
    The government of Saudi Arabia forces all these rules on women, based on the skydaddy stories, for which there is no proof.

    So I answered your questions, even if you did not like the answers. I asked you to answer Moq’s simple ‘yes or no’ questions and you run away from them. You always do that, you always run away from simple questions. Always long stories, which answer nothing, never a simple ”yes or ”no”.

    And I am sorry, but I am not at all worried that you will go to hell because I don’t think there exists a hell for you to go to.

  385. Just give me any religious revelation which in essence is any different from ”Kiss Hank’s Ass”.

    Read the complete story here:
    http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/hank.htm

  386. @Carol, I have never ever thought a day that you may treat one of your visitors in your blog by this way. Are you trying to say that Ali is a terrorist?!!!!!!

    Also you raised a point about Wahabism, are you saying that Saudis are terrorists because the so called Wahabism is fully or partially embraced in Saudi?! I think you need to explain this point further because what you said implies a very extreme position.

  387. @lynn,
    Rationally if someone has the chance to steal mpney, he will do it without any hesitation. Rationally, someone can marry his daughter, sister, mum etc. Rationally, someone, people can justify killing other people; invade other countries when they are in need. Rationally, someone can commit crimes if there is any chance BUT religiously, someone can not steal if he follow his religion because it is a sin to steal money, religiously, someone can not marry his daughter, sister mum etc, religiously, It is forbidden to use nuclear weapons, invade other countries, etc. you and me live and enjoy the morals and the values that Abraham’s religions made for us. Without these religions, we will be no more than rational humans and you may find no difference between human behaviours and animal behaviours. So, religions save us even if you think they are bad but they make of us people with values and morals.

    @aafke,
    I would agree with you if Saudi women are not followers of religion. You are talking to people who believe in revelations, religion, God, hell, paradise, etc. why do not you say to yourself that this is their religion and I have to respect their choice? Why you impose your own beliefs on them? Why you judge them according to your own atheistic beliefs? Aafk, There is God and there are religions. I will tell you how I believe and why. When I find that there are many verses in the Quran describe scientific facts discovered recently by modern science, I find myself believe in the revelation. So, there are evidences that the revelations are true. I know that you do not worry if I go to hell, so “rationally” I will not follow you but if you go to hell I will be sad for you.

    aafke, why do you use such vulgar words? ”Kiss Hank’s Ass”. you do not feel shy when you use these terms? is it because you have no religion, so you do not feel shy to use it?

    carol,
    your confirmation of my points has been received.

  388. Aafke…

    Love the story…too funny!

  389. I could not complete the story because it has some vulgar words sorry. I stoped from the first two lines when he said kiss it or ……………..

    Lynn,
    this is another example of why rationalism is more dangerous.
    what if someone offers and pays one billion dollars to girl or guy for making of them a porn star? Rationally, the girl or the boy will accept the deal but religiosuly? noone is going to accept such deal. This is the the difference simply.

  390. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  391. “Rationally if someone has the chance to steal mpney, he will do it without any hesitation. Rationally, someone can marry his daughter, sister, mum etc.”

    That is not true Medina…you are saying that without religion people have no moral compass or virtue and will automatically behave like dogs or animals…but people can have a moral and ethical code that has nothing to do with religion… atheists are able to make moral choices or “rational” choices to not sleep with a mother or brother. They don’t necessarily need God to tell them it is wrong. Similarly, an atheist would not walk up to someone and shoot them in the head “because there is no god to guide his actions.” He wouldn’t do it because it is wrong…it would hurt someone…it may steal a father or husband away from their family…

    It seems you are saying that without God people are unable to think or make rational choices just because they are the right choice. I think that is wrong. Some people wouldn’t do it because they are following their religion…others wouldn’t do it because they are following their inner voice that tells them it is wrong to hurt others. As thinking people one can make that distinction. They don’t need to be a perpetual child that doesn’t do something wrong because mom might find out. they can develop beyond that and not do something because it is just plain wrong…not because God is watching.

  392. Oh for heaven’s sake Kitty no one needs to google it…you are south african.

  393. #Medina
    Regarding living together, having kids and not being married.
    In most western countries the kids legal state doesn’t depend on their parents marital status. In case of break up the father is just as responsible for the kids as the mother ; often their is a joint custody. There is no difference between marriage and non marriage.
    And the reasons why it’s so : because the public got tired of the clergy condemn children born in wedlock. You know in western countries a person ( and a child) is a citizen first.

    Regarding your take on rationality : You’ve got it totally wrong : Society is build upon peoples trust in each other, to steal is to break this trust ( and thats why it’s punished), and by breaking the trust you are placing yourself outside the society.
    Moral did exists in pre abraham religions and societies. In fact regarding to the punishment that’s is described in many of the religious texts, they are taken from what was custom and described in pre abrahamic texts.
    And about invading other countries ? Most countries
    being invaded before the last century was being invaded in the name of God, be it christian or islam countries doing the invasion.

  394. @Aafke,

    Very funny. I always loved the story.

    @Medina, Kissing Hanks ass is what you do. It is a parity about religion. An Ass is not a vulgar word, since everyone has one. I guess getting humorous parities, may require that you also have some intelligence.

    Also regarding Saudi women, the rules are part of the religion. However, not everyone agrees fully with the religion. The point you’re missing, is that you are making rules which were invented by Bronze age people enforced on people in the 21st century.

    Again, It is FORCING these rules on people that we disagree with. You have the right to believe in any myth you like. Including the Tea Pot, The Invisible Unicorn, Santa and the Easter Bunny. No one really cares, until you have a set of irrational rules which you want others to adhere by (hence Hanks Rules).

    Note 90% of Saudis do not want to follow these rules. That is evident by the wide spread use of satellite dishes that beam down programs that are un-Islamic. Another large percentage watch porn. Some hang in malls to get girls numbers/and the girls offer them. Another travel outside the country to party and drink. Etc. A good percentage of the people do not want the rules of Islam or they would not be violating them. You are only under the delusion that people want them.

    Further, you are a strong proponent of going the extra mile of specifically keeping those rules on WOMEN (when many others have been relaxed), but some how you want the readers here to think of you as an open minded person. We have seen a lot of your writings (including the caged birds comment). We all know where you stand on women issues.

    Your thinking is not that much different than the puritan uncompromising believes of members of the CPVPV, you just put out a facade of a modern person interested in having a different outlook on the issues.

  395. Oh good grief! Are we seriously back to the argument that without religion there is no morality and humanity would be subject to anarchy? Didn’t we already debate this point a long time ago? MoQ summed it up quite nicely if I remember right. Religion does not equal morality and atheism/belief in science/logic/rationality does not equal immorality. An atheist is no more likely to kill, steal, cheat, rape, commit heinous acts than a religious person. Religion does not make a person good. All religion does is give a person a cloak of respectability. It can give a child a good structure and an understanding of how to behave but then again so can fairy tales. Take for example Japan which is not a very religious country (shintoism, buddhism and christianity are not that strong there) but it known as one of the safest countries in the world. Why is that if they aren’t very religious?

    Personally I’d still like to hear a Muslims point of view on what J said earlier about why Muhammad is given the same status as God. I know i’ve said this many times but I am still uncomfortable with how much Muhammad is overtly revered by Muslims.

    Also would someone please answer MoQ’s question directly? My answer? I agree but I think MoQ’s viewing the world 1400 years ago with the lens of a 21st century man. Human beings cant help but be shaped by our environment. We live in a world that even our grandparents probably had a hard time imagining. Was making a woman a slave 1400 years ago a bad thing after killing her clan? Well today we understand slavery is evil. But back then? It was probably better than being left to starve in the desert without family. What option did the woman have besides death, prostitution, begging, or slavery? This is why I don’t have a problem with Muhammad being a man. I do however think it’s a problem that men in this century want to emulate him. I guess the question then becomes how far do people want to emulate him. I don’t think Saudis really want to go back to a time when people rode camels, had little to eat, and went to the toilet outside do they? Like MoQ said earlier I too would not have any problems with spiritual Islam but political Islam does worry me.

    BTW I just finished reading The Windup Girl. Great book I highly recommend it. It’s a dystopian fantasy that set in a time when oil has run out, militant Islam has taken over parts of the world, and genetic alterations of food and animals have brought the world to the brink of famine. Really makes you think about where our world might be heading to. I still wonder if there are any Saudis that realize what is going to happen to their country when the world stops needing oil (my hope) or oil runs out.

  396. @Medina,

    “When I find that there are many verses in the Quran describe scientific facts discovered recently by modern science, I find myself believe in the revelation.”

    I am going to challenge you on this. I have done this with many Muslims before and they cannot provide 1 example.

    Here are the rules:

    – The scientific fact has to be described in a clear way, with words that cannot be interpreted in multiple ways.
    – That discovery did not exist before Islam.

    By the way Christians play these games with the bible also. I hope you are not a big reader of Dr Zaghlool Al Najar, who is engaged in pseudoscience.

    I know you always like to throw stuff around then run when challenged. I hope this time you stand behind your claims.

  397. Comment was removed at the request of the writer…

  398. @Medina,

    “Rationally if someone has the chance to steal mpney, he will do it without any hesitation.”

    Will if that is your rational, then you have no morals. Some of us do. We do not have to be scared of what will happen to us in the after life. We know stealing is bad as it breaks the bonds of society. Same for all your other arguments about bad behavior.

    You have a lower set of Morality, if all what is keeping you from doing these bad acts is being constantly watched and threatened by a deity.

  399. ok Kitty…

    You don’t have to answer but doesn’t your mothers heritage count? You are italian thru dad but mom gave half your genes too. Or maybe where you are from patriarchy is most important…I don’t know.

  400. @OniqiriFB,

    “Like MoQ said earlier I too would not have any problems with spiritual Islam but political Islam does worry me.”

    Agreed, political Islam is worrisome.

    But I also worry about injection of religion in Laws. Most of the women oppression issues (among others) stem from Islamic teaching and the prophets behavior. These get codified into laws.

    The other area that is worrisome, is the injection of religion into science. Yes it is kinda amusing when someone sees scientific discoveries in vague Quranic verses. I can get a laugh out of it along with the crazy studies about finding miraculous cures in camel urine (studies conducted based on a miraculous hadith). However, it goes beyond that. The people that promote these ideas are the ones that are getting grants to build universities focused on quranic miracles. They also promote anti established science ideas (Ex. evolution). The result is they are confusing generations of Arabic young people about what science is and how the scientific method actually works. This is one of the reasons the region is almost a void, when it comes to scientific discoveries and applications. It impacts the future of the people.

  401. Hi MoQ,

    In debate/discussion, yes/no reply is not the right way when u put some1 in complex situation or the matter itself is complex. In court, debate doesnt go by yes/no, there is lengthy discussion, analysis before judgement. Police’s duty is to find out the culprit and arrest and handover to court for judgement/punishment. But, if there is encounter from the culprit site, for self defense police can fire and kill kill the culprit based on situation. So, can u ask yes or no question like “Is it justifiable for police to kill culprit?”. What will u reply? yes or no? If police killed without firing/provocation from culprit, police will face murder charge. If they did the killing in right way, they will get reward/promotion.

    Similarly, one can ask – is it allowed to kill some1 as Jihad? It can be yes/no. But, jihad to take care parents, to save an innocent, to feed poor,to save urself from animalistic urge are much much bigger Jihad than Jihad to kill some1. And if the killing involves, thats not jihad but murder.

    So things are complex and need deep analysis. When police investigate an incident, they record time, place, people involved, where, how and so and so.

    So, plain yes/no question is rape of matter/incident/ruling without basis. Quoting verses of that tribal, animalistic, lawlessness era and applying today and asking “Is it right or wrong in yes/No” is completely baseless and lacks reasoning.

    In between, I will reply each and every question for women right in islam. I am little bit busy and so cant follow all. If u can, u can go through the link:

    http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=687469&tid=5210807396176405551

    All ur questions related to woman in Islam are old, crappy and boring things, that Muslims all over word have replied million times but again pop up time to time endlessly. The link contains all kind of queations from non-Muslims on women and deep and proper reply.

    If u cant check the link, I will come back.
    All can go throguh the link and let me know if u miss any question on women.

  402. @MD Azad,

    I do understand there is a need for discussions. But your answers was based on building a strawman on each argument. Then you answer the strawman. That is not answering at all, because it was not my question.

    This is why I built my questions specifically as yes and no. And I qualified it by under any condition. It was done to avoid the strawman argument which you constantly go into.

    So let’s take the example of Slavery. You can say you will allow it under certain conditions. then list your conditions. That will be a satisfactory answer, even if I do not agree.

    Similarly, you can do that with the other questions. I know you are a good thinker even if we disagree. You do not have to go into examples as they distract from the answer. I am really interested in your thoughts.

    So to your question.

    I would allow killing only under certain conditions:
    – To protect innocent lives
    – When there is no other type of force or process to avoid the loss of lives
    – To protect property only by law enforcement. The same rule of no other process or force applies here too
    – To protect a country and its boarders from invading armies.

    Now if you use an example like above, I think we will get somewhere in this debate. But Please, no Strawman 🙂

  403. @MD,

    “In between, I will reply each and every question for women right in islam. I am little bit busy and so cant follow all.”

    I know every things about the rights of women in Islam. I studied Islam more than you Assume. I do believe Islam treats women badly. The fact that you think my arguments are old, boring and crappy does not relieve you from explaining why is it moral for Islam to treat women in such a way.

    Now regarding no basis for my arguments. Those old tribal rules are still being applied under Islam. So there is a basis for my questions. It is you that is avoiding the questions and have no basis to tell us Islam has reformed from these behaviors.

    You also, have not answered the most important question, which is how come the prophet who was guided by the supreme being could not refrain from engaging in the barbaric practices of his time?

    You can not have it both ways…..

  404. Ali/Azad,

    No; I was not referring to you!!

    Your name “Azad” reminds me of when I visited a hospital in Dohuk, Iraq. It was named “Azadi Hospital” and I remember the hospital director telling me it meant ‘Freedom Hospital.’ Whereas similar sounding Asad means Lion!

    I do believe that you, Ali, are sincere in your views and welcome the opportunities for a two way dialogue where you may not change your own views but will also listen to the opposing views of others.

    ——————————————————-

    Thanks a lot Carol for clarification.

  405. ‘amazing a sex hungry man remained unmarried for 2 years’

    Why is that so amazing when he could have sex with all that his right hand possessed anyway?

    ————————————————–
    @Lynn,

    I didnt say I dnt agree with what is said in Wiki link.

    Now u and others cant even trust non-islamic links ?
    Is it becoz its not written agaisnt islam?
    Tell me why u cant digest what is written in Wiki abt how islam changed life of woman by giving dignity and rights?
    Why cant u appreciate the fact that Prophet Muahmmad PBUH married widows including 80 yrs old to give dignity to them and to end enmity for friendship?

    In between whatever u said is all as usual propaganda. There is no single verse in Hadith or Quran that says “Prophet Muhammad had sex with any1 out of marriage” while there are so many verses about intimate relationship between Prophet and his wife – even lovemaking.

    Just like Islam controlled using Alcohol steps by step, slavery was controlled step by step with a lots of rules and regulations.

    Even whole world cant control some street mongers, catapult/local made gun users Taliban with missiles and tanks since 9 years, then how could u expect that Prophet Muhammad alone could change an animalistic society to a human society in few years? Change of society takes 100s of years.

    Those slave and sex rules were imposed on those animalistic tribals to control them step by step. It doesnt mean that Prophet himself did that.

  406. MD Azad,

    The step by step approach is not valid argument.

    It took Islam 1350 years to get rid of slavery and that is because the rest of the world pressured it to it.

    Islam instituted slavery. Don’t you claim that the prophet was the last prophet and he provided th final message. Where is that Step by Step plan you are talking about in any of his teaching. He did not say at a certain time Slavery will be no more. He just put rules to make it into an institution.

    The prophet did not only marry old widows, he married many women know for there beauty or youth:

    Aisha
    Maria al Quptiah (a gifted slave)
    Safiyah (a captured Jewish woman after her father was killed in an Islamic raid, originally was claimed by a fighter but had to be given to the prophet)
    Zainab (divorced from Zaid the prophets adopted son so he can marry her)
    Rayhāna bint Zayd (captured and the men of her tribes executed, she remained a slave since she did not want to convert)
    Etc.

    The story of multiple marriages for the sake of taking care of widows just does not add up.

  407. I would love to see the answers to Moq’s latest questions in simple yes and no’s by Md and ALi and Sarah, if they dare to answer them.

    But I don’t think so, I bet we will get more strawman arguments and sex tales.

    For your information: a ”strawman argument” is: an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    —————————————————

    Aafke-Art,

    Its so nice to know that u trust Wiki.

    Now what forces u to doubt link on how Islam changed women status given in same wiki? Difficult to digest?
    Understand!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

    And regarding ur reply on disease for sex between close relation, then Can I ask u that its ok to have all kinds of unimaginable sex with son, daughter, dogs, bitch if CONDOM is used to protect from disease?

    Also I asked if sex has no role in morality, why Husband/wife needs to hide his/her sex with hix ex? He/She should say
    “honey I am going out to have sex with my ex, I will come back again and will have with u too if u want”

    Why adulatry after marriage leads to a lot of divorces in West and Europe?

    And if sex has no role in morality, its ok to have sex in Market, office, in front of freids, colleague, kids, father, mother just like u take coffee when u like? Dont say u should not waste office time when people engage 2/3 hours in face book in office but sex can take only 3 minute.

    U fail to understand that SEX is one of the moral factor that differentiates man and animals. Animals doesnt know how many partners he/she has but unfortunately now a days many men/women dont knwo how many partners he/she has. keep changing every 6 months then next then next then next from 14 years to 35 years then finally find partner to marry but still go on his/her usual multi partner habit with ex/neighbour then finally divorced then remain single then continue same. For some its freedom but for some its animalism.

    In American show – “One moment of truth”, a man confessed that he had sex with 135 girls whose name he even cant remeber. Another woman confessed she did with neighbour when husband went out. Another said she did with another married man. Another said he did with his wife’s sister. All these are ok if SEX has no role in morality as u said?

    U cant justify what u said and reply all my questions. So, lets not judge each other’s culture, what is morality and what is not. Let those who see sex with morality and sanctity, let them do. Those who who want to cover let them do. Those who want to go around with bikini, let them also do. But, lets balance between our desire and the society I live or I will live/go. As long as something is not forced on u, let others have a freedom to live their life in their own way that suits his/her family/society. That is what I see here in Singapore. Chinese live with live-ins, Indian community live in their conservative way, Muslims live with their Veil. No interference, discrimination and hue and cry from any1. Thats called peace n harmony.

  408. ‘Tell me why u cant digest what is written in Wiki abt how islam changed life of woman by giving dignity and rights?’

    Why can’t you digest the fact that women clearly had dignity and rights if Khadija had them and Islam hadn’t even been revealed yet? If you say that there were exceptions then ok, there were exceptions, whatever, either way if Khadija had them then it means women DID have dignity and rights pre Islam.

    ‘Those slave and sex rules were imposed on those animalistic tribals to control them step by step. It doesnt mean that Prophet himself did that’

    Yes, we know that the prophet didn’t always follow all the sex rules since we know that he excluded himself from the 4 wives limits. How many wives did he allow himself? Unlimited?

  409. @MD,

    “That is what I see here in Singapore. Chinese live with live-ins, Indian community live in their conservative way, Muslims live with their Veil. No interference, discrimination and hue and cry from any1. Thats called peace n harmony.”

    I agree, people should live the way they want.

    However, do you think that would be possible if Singapore did not apply laws based on Secularism. Imagine if Islamic Law (Sharia) was applied. You will end up with a theocracy that enforces laws based on religion and no freedoms.

    Living as a Mulsim and following whatever you think is appropriate behavior for yourself are never a problem. Requiring Islamic rules to be applied to anyone other than yourself would be.

  410. ‘In American show – “One moment of truth”, a man confessed that he had sex with 135 girls whose name he even cant remeber’

    I never heard of that show. How did you hear about it? Did you see it yourself? But anyway, it would only be immoral if he had promised to be faithful to someone and betrayed her or if he was not truthful to the ones he was having sex with.

    Wasn’t there recently a talk show in Saudi Arabia that had a Lebanese(?) man on that spoke of all his sexual conquests? Didn’t the talk show host get put in jail or something?

    Why adulatry after marriage leads to a lot of divorces in EAST? My morals consider polygamy adultery and many women in the EAST will want a divorce if her husband takes another wife. Also, what is wrong with divorce? It breaks up families, and kids are left with part time daddies, right? Well, when daddy has 3 other families he has to divide his time with then each of those families are broken with only a part-time father and unhappy children.

    ‘Also I asked if sex has no role in morality, why Husband/wife needs to hide his/her sex with hix ex?’

    Because he made a PROMISE when he got married that he was going to be faithful only to her and by having an affair he is breaking his promise and THAT is what is immoral. The promise could be broken without sex ever having taken place. Emotional affairs can break up marriages just as much as a physical affair can.

  411. ================
    Because he made a PROMISE when he got married that he was going to be faithful only to her and by having an affair he is breaking his promise and THAT is what is immoral.

    ————————————————–
    @Lynn,

    When sex is nothing to do with immorality. How can it be related to faithfulness? How can doing sex with others break a promise? How is it considered bad? why not sleeping openly with any1 he/she likes if sex is ok as long as 2 consenting partners do.

    It means sex with others out of marriage is considered immoral? Sex can break promise?

    what abt doing sex in office, market, bus stop just like having coffee, if sex is nothing to do with morality?

    Yes, I have seen myself ” The Moment of Truth” many times myself. Its amazing that u even do not know such a famous TV shows. Have a look here:

    http://www.hulu.com/the-moment-of-truth

    See this. U will find a lot of sex lies, adultary in American society in LIVE.

    And u are mixing one thing with another. if u find in all over world, Muslims who do polygamy is confined to few 0.0001% in Arab countries. U will not find it in maximum Muslim countries like Indonesia, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Malaysia.

    Difference between polygamy and multiple partners out of marriage is :

    1) Polygamy is supposed to do to protect dignity of women ex like wars when maximum men killed and a lot of women left unmarried , widows.

    2) Son/daughter of polygamy have rights of inheritance and take care of parents.

    3) Its not hide and seek but open to all in society. Kids out of such polygamy is legal but not bastard unlike kids from unmarried sexual relation.

    4) Father cant leave kids or wife without doing his legal obligations in polygamy but in extra-marital relation there is no legal obligation on a bastard’s father who can leave his partner and kids the moment he likes. We know innumerable numbers of single mother and a lot of bastards who do not knw his father.

    5) A wife has right not to allow polygamy as per law. But extra marital, has no such right becoz its done hidden

    6) Another condition of polygamy is he has to take care all wives equally but extra-marital relation doesnt need to care his illegal partner.

    7) There is no legal obligation for extramarital partners. Full burden can be transferred to mother in moments and father can go freely.

    8) A large no. of innocents bastards who dont know their fathers in their lives- are created by extra marital sex but not by polygamy.

    9) There are 10 million unmarried women in Russia, who are dying to find a man to marry. Many are forced to prostitution for sexual desire or sleeping around with married men, many are single mothers who are fighting bring up her kids alone. What solution u suggest?

    List goes on.

    In between u didnt reply my question on Christian terrorism, that kills non-Christians selectively and convert non-christians and priests and US’s support on India’s christian terrorism.

    Also about violent verses in Bible, u didnt miss to mention violence in Quran, u said Islam is for illeterates and so they do not know truth. what happen now? Christian terrorism is sign of truth? What is ur stand? A common christian should be responsive for christian terrorsim? U ignored all my questions that u use to ask to every other Muslims.

  412. @MoQ,

    Agreed, Sincerely speaking thre is not a single Islamic country in world. Even Saudi claims to be Sharia following law but I say its biggest crap. Women used to be in war field but in Saudi she cant drive. A woman cant be forced to marry without her consent in Islam but its ok in Saudi. A woman can stop her husband from 2nd marriage as per Islam but not in Saudi. Go to any 5-star hotel, u will find alcohol.

    However, in Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei too there is Shariah law for Muslims and non-Shariah law for non-Muslims. There is woman judge in Shariah law.

    Even though things are not perfect, In Indoneisa, Malaysia, Pakistan a Hindu can use bindi on forehead, wear any clothes of her relgion in office, market, school, there is national holiday for Christains’s christmas, Hindu’s Diwali, Budhist’s chinese new year, Bible burning too not allowed. But, A muslim woman is denied to wear hijab in Spain, France and almost entire Europe except UK. A Muslim has to work on Eid in Europe and West, he is denied holiday – a basic freedom to enjoy his religion but one month holday for christmas. Burning Quran, making cartoon of Muhammad PBUH is freedom of speech(hehe freedom of relgion :)) in Europe and West but not in malaysia, Indonesia, Brnei – any culprit is dealt severely.

    So, there is no point in finding weakness in one side only when I fail to see my own weakness. I can boast of my country’s freedom of relgion when u see deeply there is open hollow somehow. All has its share of weakness.

  413. My favorite website about logical fallacies:
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

    I only offered the wiki page because, while perfectly correct, it is a lot simpler and less to read for those who have other things to do.

    As the logical fallacy is so ubiquitous here, and as they make a meaningful discussion impossible, I really wish people would read the website and think about how they want to discuss here.

    Medina, I am amazed at your sudden prudishness.
    Especially from somebody who has admitted to watching horror porn.
    So you have no problem watching asses, but you do have a problem reading about them???

    I think the problem is that you do not like the story. And that’s fine. If you think about that story you might see all religions in the same light, because they tell you the exact same story, and then you would end up a deist or atheist, and if you still think this hell myth is reality you would be very unhappy.

    So by all means don’t read it.

    But then you can’t explain to me why I should believe in another ”Kiss Hank’s Ass”-story and why that would give me superior morals.

  414. Md, It is not only Moment of Truth. People do not have to watch it to see the shamlessless of that soceity. If Lynn did not watch it, it does not make it unreal. There are other reality shows that show rampant immorality. But it seems moral to them as long as people are “consenting”. That is their slogan.

    THe topic of slavery was discussed in details months ago and even the marriages of the PRophet (pbuh). When everything is explained, they still cannot digest it and the same topic keeps coming back with the same repetitve comments. This shows that the explanations are vain and that they say the same things not to gain knowledge but to bash Islam. It is pretty clear. They want to find faults but they do not want to hear correction of their misunderstood notions because that is not what they are after.

    You and I (and even they) know how immoral that society is whatever the definition of the word is.

  415. Aafke

    ” You can worry about what your invisible friend thinks that is fine by me.
    But then you take it outside into the real world and claiming you have this revelation from a god, that requires people other than yourself to behave in a certain way, without any proof”

    Fine, but why do you then impose your unbeliefs on others, why do u impose your nakedness on others who want to be covered.

    Can you proof that there is no god? I understand it is difficult for u to take directions (maybe because you feel far superior than anyone or anything) and that is why you do not want to belief and follow rules.

    ” I asked you to answer Moq’s simple ‘yes or no’ questions and you run away from them”

    You keep insisting on this because it is an easy way out for you. As you know that there is no “yes/no” answers to complex questions. But u ask it anyway just to get your way. You will make a good lawyer.

    Lynn, you are a self-proclaimed bitch and then you complain about your daughter? – Oh – I just answered that one myself.

    Ori,
    ” why Muhammad is given the same status as God. I know i’ve said this many times but I am still uncomfortable with how much Muhammad is overtly revered by Muslims.”

    No one gives Muhammad same status as God. He is only the last final prophet. God is the Creator. This has been explained to you many times.

  416. oby,
    I hate it when you go for personal talk.why you make of kitty’s a topic here. Can you argue without going into people privacy? it is your habit in argument to go into personal stuff.

    If you ask any American, why America Nuked Japan? He will depend on logic; they will tell you there was no other option. Here. rational people have no morals when it comes to hard time.

    People developed some morals in the past but these morals are easily broken when it comes to hard time. Where are the American ethics and morals when they destroyed Falujah in Iraq?

    aafk
    “Especially from somebody who has admitted to watching horror porn.”

    I have never ever admitted watching porn. You need to prove that. The movie that I watched was broadcasted in the “Saudi” channel MBC 2. I think I said that before but your logic of using fale accusation and lies made you say so. see your logic make of you immoral now by accusing me of things I have never done. This is the valid point that you should understand, you do not hesistate to lie just to discredit other people points.

    aafk, if someone offer you one billion dollars to make a porn movie, will you accept the offer? Let me see the morals of your logic. I need a candid answer.

    The scientific facts in the Quran are not what I say or silly one thinks he can challenge it but it is acknowledged by many scientists from American and canadian universities.

  417. Medina, you scare me. You tell us that without religion you would be stealing money right and left and it is only the fear of being tortured for all eternity by a caring and loving god is keeping you from stealing?
    And so you would kill and murder everybody you could if your book didn’t threaten you with hellfire?
    (Well, in your case you are free to kill certain ”non believers” of course)
    Sot you would go around raping women if you weren’t afraid of hellfire?

    Oh, but your particular book doesn’t even mention rape, so actually that would be alright.
    Now I am really scared!

    Actually, I think you are quite a decent human being and that despite your book allowing rape by not considering it important enough to mention it, I think you would not do so.
    And you would not do so because I trust you know it is a bad thing to do.
    Despite your book not mentioning it.
    The same goes for stealing and killing I hope.
    I think you don’t really need the fear of hellfire to behave morally, I think you are better than that.

    Onigirifb:
    *Was making a woman a slave 1400 years ago a bad thing after killing her clan? *
    Yes.
    You really think that a woman who has a nice husband, a loving father and mother, and a high status would not think it a bad thing to have her father, brothers, uncles slaughtered, her husband tortured to death and killed and then being handed over to one of the men who attacked and murdered the men and boys of her tribe and family? To be a slave? To be raped, and sold on to the next man who would rape her?
    You really think that’s not a bad thing?
    You don’t think that it could maybe be possible not to attack, not to kill nazi-style the male half of a tribe after they surrendered and enslaving the women? Wouldn’t that be the behavior of the example for the future generations of humanity?

    And how can any religion admire such acts and think it’s a loving god who allows, supports it?
    It’s totally insane.
    How dare you even pose the question!?!?

  418. PS Onigirifb, We do know from the narrations of that time that a pretty widow or divorcee would have had no problem whatsoever in finding a new husband, so slavery as a means of survival does not apply.

    And really, being a prostitute and choosing your customers and being able to make your own decisions would still be preferable to being a slave, open to being raped and beaten by whatever man had purchased you.

    And Mohammed did not try to slowly eradicate slavery. He went the other direction. The calls for freeing slaves were from his early time, when he did not have power, and liked to get support even of those who were slaves. later on he traded in slaves, owned slaves, and made slaves out of free people. When he became powerful he changed his position: he supported and engaged in slavery.
    And we all know by now that the later verses obrigate the early verses.

  419. Niels and Moq, i don’t have morals because it would damage society, I cannot live with the idea that I am hurting or damaging somebody, therefore I will go out of my way to trace the owner of a wallet or handbag I have found, or bring it to the police. I will not beat up people because that would cause them pain. I will not lie because that would cause pain. I do not retract my given word. I do not hurt my pets, I do not steal, I do not kill.
    Immoral actions are bad because they hurt another being.
    Not because it would be bad for a society. That would be the result of bad morals.
    I do not honor my sense of good and bad for the sake of society, but for a more personal feeling of not wanting to cause pain or damage to other people or animals.

  420. Lynn, thank you for explaining.

    Md, you still do not get it?
    Lying and breaking a promise is what constitutes the immoral action. That it a promise to do with sex still doesn’t make sex moral or immoral. It could also be a promise not to drink any more coffee. Athough betraying that promise would be a lot less painful to the betrayed.

    It is the lying and betrayal which is immoral.

  421. Lynn, thank you for explaining.

    Md, you still do not get it?
    Lying and breaking a promise is what constitutes the immoral action. That it a promise to do with sex still doesn’t make sex moral or immoral. It could also be a promise not to drink any more coffee. Athough betraying that promise would be a lot less painful to the betrayed.

    It is the lying and betrayal which is immoral.

    ———————————————————-

    Still u are living in Denial. Why sex needs to be mixed with promise, why it cant be treated like taking coffee.

    Ok forget, why people cant do sex in office, market, train , bus openly if SEX is nothing to do with morality?

    Why man cant do with dog, sister, mother if all parties agree? With CONDOM? No disease??

  422. #MD AZAD ALI SHAH
    I’m not able to value your textual references ti islamic thought, but you have no grasp of reality. Your ignorance of the truth is simply overwhelming.
    1. No woman is denied to wear a hijab in europe.
    Niqab is forbidden in Franche part of Belgium, and a few cities in Spain.
    2. Eid isn’t a holiday, but most muslims have the days around Eid off; In most european countries have flexible holidays/workdays, which muslim can use.
    3. There isn’t a months holiday around Christmas, but if you are lucky (depending of which day is christmas day) max 8 days off.
    And often our muslims friends chose to work in christmas to secure that others can have their days off.
    4. Our countries are based of freedom of speech, thats why thousands and thousands of muslim have
    asked for political exile in our countries ( including disgusting islamists, our freedom is for all).

    And I’ve noticed that you are more interested in what some muslims say of slavery, than in which ways slaves were hunted and threaten by muslims.
    As above you are not interested in research or knowledge. Thats your problem.

    #Medina
    After western traditions there isn’t any scientific facts in the Quran.
    To be called science subjects have to be investigated and probed after scientific methods. And real science didn’t evolve before the 1700 century.
    Why don’t you just concentrate of the spiritual messages in your religion instead of expanding it to areas, where religion isn’t home.

  423. Niels Christensen,

    No need for argument plz. My wife is from spain.
    I know how my father in law works on Eid and denied leave.
    I know my cousin work in France on Eid.
    If Christmas is holiday , why not Eid when there are 7 million Muslims in France, 3 million in UK, 4 million in Germany. ?

    The moment she goes for interview , she is said to remove her hijab if she wants job in most part of Europe. I do nt say this in UK becoz people are more tolerant there.

    Lets not do dry argument plz

  424. @Sarah

    Exactly Sarah, I thought people really wants to know about other culture and religions but their purpose is to bash Islam at any cost.
    If people see both good and bad sides, I would have thought they people have unbiased, generous mind of humanity.
    Why its so easy to ask questions and finding weakness and why difficult to accepts postitive things too?

    MoQ finally judged that Islam treats woman badly.

    I do not mind people to bring negative things about Islam, considering people misunderstand certain complex verses of Quran.
    But,No one appreciates any good thing which is quite clear in Islam.

    They dnt care how Islam gave women folowing rights that no other regligion gives:

    1.Right and duty to obtain education
    2.Right to have their own property & inheritance
    (they will say 1/2, 1/3 so and so when they are blind that women is not responsible even for her food but all man has to take care)
    3.Right to work to earn money if needed or want it
    4.Equality of reward for equal deeds
    5.Right to express their opinion and be heard
    6.Men is responsible to run family in whatever condition but not women.
    She is not responsible for her 2 times bread, make up product, utility bill, kid’s education in her whole life.
    7.Right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice
    8.Right to obtain divorce from her husband,even on the grounds that she simply can’t stand him
    9.Right to keep all her own money(she is not responsible to run family financially)
    10.Custody of children if divorce occurs
    11.Right to choose her partner & to refuse any marriage that does not please her
    12.Right to ask compensation for feeding baby if divorce occurs
    13.Men has to give dowry to bride if he wants to marry but not vice versa
    14.Its not wife’s duty to cook/wash or any household chores.
    15. A wife’s earning is her own money but not to take care her family.
    She is free to use in the way she likes.
    16. A woman can only be witness not man in case of identity of child birth.
    But people love misinterpretation.
    A single woman’s witness of Eid’s moon sight is equal to a single man’s moon sight.
    This “=” is not applicable in all scenario and situation. In certain , a few scenario only, where women is prone to panick like heinous crime

    17. A mother’s share is 75% and father’s share is only 25% on their kids
    18. Heaven is beneath the feet of mother not father
    19. A women has flexibility to pray at home or Masjid as per her convenience but for men its compulsory to pray at Masjid
    20. Right to protect her dignity. A woman can not be blamed easily of adulatary, the accuser has to produce 4 witness.
    But people says woman victims has to produce 4 witness 🙂

    21) List endless..read more in Surah An-Nisa

  425. NOW COMING TO THE WORDS OF PROPHET TO BE KIND TO WOMEN:

    16. Another Hadith states that, ” The Father, if he educates his daughter well, will enter Paradise.”
    Yet another Hadith states that, ” A mother is a school. If she is educated, then a whole people are educated”.
    In Islam Knowledge means both Knowledge of Religion and knowledge of Science of Worlds.
    Both Knowledge of World and Islam makes our Sisters Like a Diamond in the heap of Gold.

    17. No one encourage Prophet’s last sermon on woman, how he exhorted men to
    “be kind to women-you have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you.”

    18)He also said,
    “Treat your women well, and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers,” and at a different time,

    19)he said, “The strong man is not the one who can use the force of physical strength, but the one who controls his anger” (Bukhari).

    20)He also said, – O MUSLIMS PLEASE TREAT OUR WOMEN WITH KIND.. THEY ARE OUR SISTERS OUR MOTHER OR DUAGHTERS AND WIFE.

    21)In Abu-Dawud, Ibn Ma’jah, Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said –
    “Men who beat their wives are not best amonst u”
    22)Hadith in Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said -“The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behavior, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.”
    23). Allah’s Apostle said, “You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah’s sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your WIFE’s mouth. “sahih Bukhari, vol1,book2,hadith53

    24)Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 6:

    Narrated Al-Mughira:

    The Prophet said, “Allah has forbidden you
    ( 1 ) to be undutiful to your mothers
    (2) to withhold (what you should give) or
    (3) demand (what you do not deserve), and
    (4) to bury your daughters alive.

    25)GOOD CONDUCT TOWARDS ONE’S WIFE
    IS A PRECONDITION FOR PERFECT FAITH: (IMAN).

    Aisha Siddiqah narrated from Rasullulah that amongst Muslims, that person is more perfect in Iman whose conduct is good with everyone and especially with his wife his attitude is one of kindness and love. [Tirmidhi]

    26)THE BEARER OF GOODNESS AND KINDNESS.

    Abu Hurairah narrates from Rasulullah saying: Amongst Muslims, the most perfect in Iman is he who has good conduct, and the best among you is the one who is good and kind in regard to the rights of his wives. [Tirmidhi]

    27)BEST MAN IS ONE WHO IS BEST TO HIS WIFE,
    RASULULLAH EMPHASIZING HIS POINT:

    “Amongst you the best is that person who shows good conduct towards his wife and I am the best for my wives.”

    28) The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The best people from among you are those who are best to their wives.”(At-Tirmidhi)

    29) Also, he said, “No Muslim should hate his Muslim wife. If he dislikes some of her qualities, he may find some other qualities that are agreeable.” (Muslim)

    30) And, he said, “Adhere to my advice about woman that you should treat them fairly.” (At-Tirmidhi)

    In islam men and women are equal becoz in some condition men has greater right and in some women has greater right as per difference between men and women in many areas. But overall, collectively rights are same.
    Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others.
    Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.
    If everything is same between men and women, why not men get pregnant? Why he doesnt have monthly period?
    So, God created men and woman differently and so different rule at different time for men and women to protect them.

    Let me explain in other way –

    there are 5 Questions in an examination – 1,2,3,4,5 and all carries 20 marks.

    Q.NO.– Muslim man obtained — Muslim women obtained

    1. —— 5 —————————- 15
    2. ——10 —————————- 10
    3. ——15 —————————- 20
    4. ——20 —————————- 5
    5 .——20 —————————- 20
    ———————————————————
    Total= 70 —————————- 70

    Finally 70=70
    men=women in Islam

    Finally, woman can even teal from husband if husband fails to fulfill her needs:

    Islam even gives women the right to take secretly money from their husbands if the husbands are not providing for them.

    Hind, the wife of Abu Sufyan, came to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi was sallam) and said, “O Messenger of Allah, Abu Sufyan is a stingy man and does not give me and my children enough provisions except when I take something from him with out his knowledge.” Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi was sallam) said, “Take what is reasonably sufficient for you and your children.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

    The Prophet said,”Whoever believes in Allah & the Last Day should not hurt (trouble)his neighbor. And I advise u to take care of the women,for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it,it will break, and if you leave it,it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women and do not shed them into tears as Allah counts their tears.”(Volume 7,Book62,Number 114)

    Finally, no use to waste time. When people try NOT TO UNDERSTAND with great effort.

  426. Now Muslim men should protest for being biased against men and for giving to much excess rights to women , that no other religion gives 🙂

  427. MoQ, Medina, concerning scientific miracles in the Quran:

    I read this post earlier in the year. The writer said she couldn’t write an article about the scientific miracles of the Quran for an online Islamic magazine because she believed teaching about “the supposed scientific miracles in the Quran is a bad idea.” She shows a couple examples of these so-called miracles and how they were in earlier religious texts such as the Hindu one.

    http://tazaqqa.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/religion-science-and-scripture/

    She said the Quran never claimed to have scientific miracles and the Arabs of that time never considered them such. She argues that pre-Islamic Arabs were not as ignorant as Muslims like to pretend. She said the miracle of the Quran wasn’t its “science.” Instead the Arabs were enthralled by its poetic language.

    I read the Quran (well, an English translation) earlier this year and it seemed indeed that its POETRY was the highlight.

  428. MD AZAD ALI SHAH

    “Now Muslim men should protest for being biased against men and for giving to much excess rights to women , that no other religion gives :)”

    ———————

    That’s funny! I bet if you had the choice to be a woman in Islam with ALL those rights or be a Muslim man whom you said should protest for Islam being biased against men (*wink, wink*) that you’d still choose 100% to be a man! Deep down you know men always have it better. When my Arab MALE friend gets to whining about how unfair the world is to Arabs and Muslims, I tell him to be grateful that at least he’s not an Arab WOMAN.

    And if you are serious about how Islam is biased towards women don’t worry. Islamic heaven is “like a brochure describing a heavenly whorehouse” for the men. I got that from an Australian author, Geraldine Brooks’ book – Nine Parts of Desire – concerning “the hidden world of Islamic women.” It’s not an anti-Islam book. That was just her description of how Islam is pro-sex even in the afterlife. For men, that is.

    So chin up….better days are coming for you!

  429. So chin up….better days are coming for you!
    ————————————————————

    WOW Huhhh ,

    I wrote such a long posts on women, the moment I posted u slightly viewed last line and posted CHOWWWW without even reading in a moment? And do not care to read too but surely too much important to ask next QUESTION.

    READ BACK PLZ. WHAT I WROTE IS FOR HUMAN BEING, that human being can comprehend.

    Really waste waste waste of time. Amazing world !!! 😦

  430. aafk,
    You think humans are angels? hehe, I do not know what could happen to you if the security breaks up for three nights in your city. I will give you a hint for good discussion. When you discuss a social issue, do not think of me and yourself. Think of people generally.

    Have a look at this candid camera clip; enjoy the morals of rational people.

    explain to me their rational behaviour.

    @Niles,
    Why is there science? It is to come up with findings. The Quran gives us these findings without need of scientific studies. If you have any objection, speak to professors who were talking in the movies that I posted.

  431. @MD,

    “Still u are living in Denial. Why sex needs to be mixed with promise, why it cant be treated like taking coffee.”

    That is a bad example. Something can be described as morally accepted, but not decent for the public. A good example, we all agree that picking your nose is not immoral. However, you do not do it in public I hope.

    “Why man cant do with dog, sister, mother if all parties agree? With CONDOM? No disease??”

    – Dog cannot give consent, so it is not moral
    – Mother is because you are breaking other moral laws which describe that sex should not be committed with family members as resulting children could have diseases. That Family members should develop different types of bonds and sex can introduce some other emotions breaking those bonds. That parents can have undo influence on their children.
    – Sitter: If under age, then you have consent issues. If you are Married then you are breaking trust by cheating. You also have a relationship of employer and employee here, an experting undo pressure. You also have an age difference.

    The point MD is societies can develop a set of guidelines for relationships, without having to call a natural act like sex immoral. There is no need for myths and stone age rules to be moral.

    Also, what is this obsession with animal Sex? Sorry my friend, but animal sex is always raised in debates with Muslims, like it is something the West accepts or ever is part of a conversation. Actually, I have never heard anyone go there, except Muslims in what is supposed to be intellectual debates.

  432. @Medina,

    “Have a look at this candid camera clip; enjoy walking the morals of rational people.”

    Here we go again, using videos for your proof.

    Here is teh deal, in that busy street there could have been 1000 people walking by and only the 10 touched tht money. That is how Candid Camera works, if you have not figured that out yet. Also, those people that stole the money, could be mostly Christians and they have been told all their lives that stealing is wrong and they still did it. I.e the fear of a deity does not make you follow rules.

    In the US if you get a delivery from UPS and you are not at home, they will leave it at your door and no one touches it. They actually make models to determine percentage of theft, they determined that the percentage is so low, that they are willing to pay for the shipment in those rare cases to save on delivery time. Now ask yourself, why can’t a delivery company do that in Saudi. The reason is there is a very high chance it will be stolen that makes the model costly.

    Now I am not saying Saudis are immoral, but with all your oppression about religion. And most people believing in a god that will punish you in the after life, you still have these issues. You have a wrong premise that the fear of the god stops crime. If that is the case then Saudi will be crime free.

    You really need to spend sometime about what constitute rules of evidence.

    By the way I still have a challenge for you regarding proof of 1 miracle in the Quran. I know you love to make Big statement, then run 🙂

  433. @susanne430,

    “The writer said she couldn’t write an article about the scientific miracles of the Quran for an online Islamic magazine because she believed teaching about “the supposed scientific miracles in the Quran is a bad idea.””

    Yes, the crooked clerics in the Arabic and Islamic world have used this concept to gain prestige and money (unfortunately we have them in the US also). One of the Famous ones is Dr. Zaghlool Al Najar,who has a degree in Geology. Instead of focusing on teaching people science, he decided it is more lucrative to go this rout. The problem is there is so much lack of knowledge about science in the Arabic world, that his stories continue to amaze the simpletons. One of them posts here constantly. The Scary part is he claims his country is spending a lot of money to educate him. It is a shame..

  434. @susan

    You can speak to this prominent scientist and try to persuade him that he is wrong.

    This is also for record in the Quran, (41. 53. We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur’an) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?)

    I do not think you can deny this in the Quran. Your writer also CAN NOT deny the science in the Quran because it is already there. Why it is miracle? It is because the prophet Mohmmad is a simple person who does not join any school, he does not even read or writes and he has never been to any other country but the Quran stats scientific facts discovered and proved recently by modern sciences, which proves that the Quran is not a man made but a revelation from God. So I really advice you not to join denial people in here.

  435. Medina, we had this science debate before.
    For example: The Qurans description of how a baby is formed is based on the incorrect knowlege of the Greeks, and it is wrong.

    You want to know about stealing in my world? Where I live people sell produce or eggs or flowers or whatever by putting up a stand by the side of the road, marking the items with the price, and adding an empty jar or box where people put the money for whatever they want to buy.

    The stand is not guarded, the money in the pot or box is not guarded.
    And yet it works.
    See pictures here:
    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/country-shopping/

  436. Mr Azad Ali Shah…that long list of “rights” you posted in regards to Muslim women are nice…on paper. Despite being written in the Quran they mean very little to the women in the Islamic world that wake up every morning without a single one of those rights being given to her. What is the point of joyfully pointing them out to us when the reality is very few Islamic countries even consider the rights of women when enforcing Sharia Law?

    Of course now you will say…well God give them their rights but its the Muslim men who take them away so thats Muslim being bad…not the Quran. Well I guess you would be right in that regard but then again, Muslim women are at the mercy of Muslim men and for the most part Muslim men arent all that merciful regarding Muslim women (speaking of Sharia Law and culture here)

    Apparently God gave Muslim men a “degree” over Muslim women (and non Muslim women as well) in order to “maintain” them (or control them, whichever you prefer) when He should have either given Muslim women control over themselves…or made Muslim women a degree over Muslim men….the degree of oppression in the Muslim world against Muslim women is rampant and disgusting…and all the while these Muslim men are abusing, oppressing, divorcing on a whim, marrying left and right, stealing inheritence, forcing marriages or denying marriages, honor killing etc etc etc…they still have the f**king balls to stand there and righteously claim that Islam gave Muslim women rights others before her didnt have.

    Ask those same Muslim women that are suffering under the rule of Sharia Law and the Quranic interpretation as done by Muslim men (as I suffered) whether or not they feel all that blessed.

    Please dont speak of the superior status of Muslim women in Islam when Muslims themselves make it abundantly clear she is worth only as much as her family values her. If she has a good mahrem, good spouse, lives in a culture that has joined the 21st century then chances are she has SOME rights…but there is no Islamic country today that gives Muslim women ALL those rights or even most of those rights you listed.

    The ONLY place a Muslim woman is guaranteed to get her rights, those in the Quran and even more, are in the Big Bad West (or like minded countries)…go figure.

  437. @Aafke

    Please don’t get huffy with me lady. My question on slavery was made to make you look at it without the lens of a 21st century person. In the 21st century we were raised to understand that slavery is ownership of a human being and that is evil. For someone so against abrahamic religions you strangely seem to stick to black and white thinking just like many Christians and Muslims do. I would think by now you would realize the world isn’t black and white. Slavery did not absolutely equal rape and being beaten. Being someone’s wife did not absolutely mean a women wasn’t beaten or raped either. Was it possible for a women to survive back then without being a slave? Of course. The likelihood that a women whose family and clan were killed 1400s years ago had many options available to her is not high.

    @Sarah

    Yes people have told me they don’t worship Muhammad. Have you ever heard the phrase “actions speak louder than words”? Do you have a answer for what J brought up?

    “Now lets talk about the relationship between Allah and Mohammad. The Quran is full of references such as these: Obey Allah and His Messenger, believe in Allah and His Messenger, show your faith in Allah and His Messenger, an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, We believe in Allah and in the messenger, and we obey, they fear that Allah and His Messenger will act wrongfully towards them , Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment, etc…

    If M were just a messenger, his name would not need to have been mentioned. Right? In the Bible you find statements that say “Thus sayeth the Lord” not the “Lord and Moses” or “Jehovah and Isaiah declare” say this or that. In the Bible, Jehovah’s prophets to not make decisions and share joint authority with God.

    Note also the many special exceptions and special permissions – only for the Prophet, of course. The Quran is full of special cases and exceptions — for Mohammad to cut, burn and destroy orchards and fields (59:5.) to attack and burn mosques and kill Muslims (9:107, 110). to violate the sanctity of the sacred month Rajan (which from immemorial antiquity in Arabia had been consecrated to peace) and attack infidels (Sura 2). to marry more than 4 women “this only for thee, and not for the believers” (33:50). Not only does the Quran have special rules for Islam’s prophet, it has a bunch of special rules for his wives (see below). I know that this will surprise you, but when one wife got fat (Sauda was her name) Allah came through with another revelation (found in Quran 33:51) to save his prophet from a whale. I quote: “Then when Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this (relating to his wives): ‘You may defer any one of them you wish, and take to yourself any you wish; and if you desire any you have set aside (no sin is chargeable to you)’”. Sauda was designated official housekeeper and relieved of certain marital duties. Tell me, isn’t that kind of suspicious?
    Now, about Allah and Mohammed as co-gods, equal in status (kind of). If you read the Quran it is obvious that Mohammad is making decisions and cooperating with Allah. “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful” (9:29) . So Mohammad determines what is right and wrong? Another quote: “No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allah and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error.” (33:36) So Allah needs Mohammad to make a decision? What the text says is that Allah and Mohammad act together. It makes Mohammad a full partner to Allah, contrary to the doctrine that says that the worst sin (shirk) is to associate partners to Allah (4:48). Even so, Mohammad associates himself to Allah hundreds of times. In fact, when there is a divergence between Allah and Mohammad, Muslims obey their dear prophet, always – As noted in the case of apostasy. Another example, as far as I know, the Quran says the faithful are to pray three times a day, but Mohammad in the hadith says 5 times. Who do Muslims obey? Mohammad. In fact, Allah is just numero tres in veneration, behind Mohammad, a black stone (all Muslims still bow down to rocks, just like the pagans did before Islam) and in third place, way behind, is poor Allah. Have you ever seen a Muslims upset about people disrespecting Allah? Nope! Now draw a silly picture of Mohammad and they froth at the mouth.”

  438. …but there is no Islamic country today that gives Muslim women ALL those rights or even most of those rights you listed.

    The ONLY place a Muslim woman is guaranteed to get her rights, those in the Quran and even more, are in the Big Bad West (or like minded countries)…go figure.
    —————————————————
    @Coolred38,

    Yes figured in following link 🙂
    Yes agreed. But, thats social issue. Its fact that religion is always misused.
    But, plz do not say that women also do not harass men in today’s world. Fake case of harassment if there is conflict in other matter and sending ex-husband/husband to court unnecessarily, fake rape case for certain opportunity.

    Demanding unbearable dowry. As u know so many men cant afford dowry demand and luxirious life of women in Arab. Its not misuse of Islam.?

    Wife Asking stupid and emotional questions like “U cant even take care of me” when husbands work hard night and day to fulfill her luxirious life and she is never satisfied.

    I am not generalising but those who want, they do as much as they can be it men or women.
    So, law is misused by both sexes as much as they can.

    Regarding women harassment is not confined to Muslim world even though media propagates more. U can roam mid night at Kuala Lampur, Istanbul, Jakarta without fear. I am not saying its 100% free from crime but u will feel safer there. Instead of only hearing from media, kindly go out and spend some holiday. KL is beautiful place too. Arab has only 18% of Muslim in world. So, Arab doesnt represent Muslims.

    USA : Around 90 percent of women face sexual harassment at work

    http://www.newsofap.com/newsofap-22260-26-usa-around-90-percent-of-women-face-sexual-harassment-at-work-newsofap.html

    Sexual harassment in the Army – USA
    If they can do with their own women , with their own colleague, imagine what they cn do with helpless Iraqi gals..

    So, its depend on how much powerful media is to spread something.

  439. OnigiriFB,

    Write something from ur side, do not copy paste JJ Kacktuz post without reading my reply of his post.

    I replied already about ur assumtion on associaltion of Muhammad PBUH with Allah.

    Habit of copy paste without reading and comprehending any response or analysis?

    Undestand!!!

  440. Onigirifb.
    Do you actually believe that a free woman reduced to slavery would not considered that all that bad 1400 years ago?
    Simple yes or no question.

    Do you really think that slaves would have been treated ”lovingly” and ”cared” for? And not raped??? Like maids are treated now in Saudi Arabia I suppose?

    Simple yes or no question.

  441. MoQ,

    U agree that there is no morality on SEX?

    Ur explanation tells that there is morality attached with sexual conduct.

    People can do facebook but not sex in office. People do not do sex even with wife in public place but take coffee togather in public place.

    If its not morality, what is this?

    Regarding sex with mother, sister, wife’s friend, husband’s freind, brother, husband’s bro, freind or any kind of unimaginable sex should be ok if there is no morality on Sex (sex for fun with condom not for producing kid).

    Sex should be as light as taking coffee, taking dinner or shaking hands. But its not so, it means a social morality is expected on sex.

    When huband/wife does sex with others, it should be considered lightly as its normal way but nothing to do with morality?

    This morality on sex is different from place to place, society to soceity. There is no need to mock at other’s culture and social moral system.

    Finally, do u agree that there is no morality with SEX as claimed by the respected lady?

  442. @Azad: ‘And u are mixing one thing with another. if u find in all over world, Muslims who do polygamy is confined to few 0.0001% in Arab countries. U will not find it in maximum Muslim countries like Indonesia, Paksitan, Bangladesh, Malaysia.

    The point is that ISLAM allows it, not whether or not 100% of Muslims DO it.

    In MY country, the fact that the father is not married to the mother does NOT release him from his obligations to the child and we do not call the child a bastard EVEN if the mother was a whore and has no idea who the father was. We have gotten away from labeling people based on religious mores.

    How many children in Muslim countries are poor and disadvantaged because their fathers have taken off and left them and the mother has no way of making money because certain jobs are unsuitable for her as a ‘muslim’ woman? See, when women are empowered and able to take care of themselves MEN are not as important anymore, the women no longer have to accept maltreatment in order to live. THAT is the reason that MEN put rules on women’s public activities her education and what jobs she can have, it’s so that they can retain power over them. Once she can take care of herself then they lose their power, eh?

  443. ‘Now from which hate site and propaganda u say that islam is against women when its Islam which brought right for women?’

    You HAVE to stop saying that if you admit that Khadija had property and rights BEFORE Islam.

  444. @MD

    “There are 10 million unmarried women in Russia, who are dying to find a man to marry. Many are forced to prostitution for sexual desire.”

    This has to be the most hysterical thing I heard all my life. Yeah, I’m so horny that I’m going to go become a hooker. All prostitutes must be driven into the biz by untamed sexual appetites, nothing else.

    In case you didn’t catch on, the above is expression of sarcasm.

  445. OnigiriFB,

    Didn’t Aisha even say something to Muhammad about how Allah always seemed to conveniently give Muhammad whatever he wanted? Like when M wanted his adopted son’s wife, Allah conveniently revealed that adoptions were null and void in Islam thus M did no culturally scandalous thing. It’s like a genie in a bottle.

    Your comment to Sarah about M’s special privileges reminded me of this.

  446. @Sarah: ‘You and I (and even they) know how immoral that society is whatever the definition of the word is.’

    Y’ALL are the ones that are not getting it. We are not denying that these things happen in our society. But they happen in the Islamic world as well as I pointed out the talk show in Saudi with the guy bragging about all his sexual conquests. We freely admit that there are immoral things here. We don’t necessarily AGREE on what it is that makes it immoral.
    1. A married man (or not married but in a commited relationship) has a secret sexual affair.

    That is immoral because he is breaking a promise that he made when he agreed to the committment.

    2. A married man has multiple sex partners and the wife agrees to it and perhaps has other sex partners as well.

    NOT immoral because they AGREED that that is the kind of relationship that makes them happy.

    The SEX is not what makes it immoral LYING is what makes it immoral. Can you digest that?

  447. @Azad

    Are you also posting as Sarah? If you answered J’s question in this thread then I must have missed it. I’ll admit that I started scrolling down after Lynn and Ali got into their spat. I tried going back thru and still don’t see where you answered J. Kindly point it out to me would you?

    @Aafke

    Again with the black and white. *sigh, rolls eyes* Fine I’ll play as long as you answer my questions as well.

    1. yes
    2. yes

    Please answer these questions with either yes or no.

    1. Is it better to die than to be a slave?
    2. Can someone be treated badly (raped or abused) no matter who they are?

    I don’t think the world is black and white. Your comment on servants being treated badly already makes my point. It doesn’t matter if you are being paid or a slave you can be treated badly either way. Do you really think that all slaves were unhappy? Do you think that there weren’t slaves that CHOOSE to be a slave back then? Ever hear about prisoners who when released beg to be let back into prison?

  448. Md. Ali Shah…you seem to be confusing the act of sex with the feelings connected with it. People dont have sex in public places because its an intimate act meant to be done in private….drink coffee together is not an intimate act so its done in public.

    The morality of sex is something else but concerns feelings as well. Two people can engage in the act of sex without feelings getting into it….sex is a biological need every human on the planet experiences…just like eating, breathing etc. Its what our bodies are designed to want and need. The morality of sex is when you are in a relationship (feelings) with one person and disregard the sanctity of that relationship to go engage in the act of sex with someone else. Therefore, its not act of sex itself that has upset the offended person the most…but the violation of trust that has been broken. Breaking your oaths, promises, lying, sneaking, hurting others on purpose etc…THOSE are immoral acts. Sex is just a physical act two (or more) bodies engage in because that is what bodies require…when feelings come into the act of sex…then morality comes with it. The morality of the behavior between those two people. How they treat each other. Whether they uphold the trust each has put in the other not to hurt them…on purpose.

    Your confusing the act of sex with the feelings attached to it.

    We dont have sex with our family members because our concious…our feelings about it…tell us we shouldnt and that it is wrong. Not the actual act of sex itself…you can engage in that with anyone or anything you want…how you feel about it is what makes it immoral or not.

    Morality is how we treat others….if we have no morality we dont care how we treat them.

    I agree with the previous poster who said only Muslims seem to bring sex with animals and every other damn thing into a conversation as some sort of proof about sex being moral/immoral. How many people do you personally know that engage in sex with animals? Does that happen alot in your neck of the woods so that you mention it as an everyday occurence?

  449. Md. Ali Shah…I will give you an example and you tell me if this person acted morally or not.

    My husband and I were married for 20 years. During that time I will admit me engaged in the ACT of sex too many times to count. We were married…it was all halal and legal in the eyes of God etc etc etc. As married couple he had a right to my body (Islamically speaking) and so any sex that we did engage in was, generally speaking, morally acceptable.

    Got me so far.

    However, when you throw a few facts into the equation it changes the moral standing…such as…9 times out of 10 my husband chose to rape me rather than have sex with me. He chose to beat me sometimes while having married sex with me. Or he would argue, fight and beat me first…then demand his rights to sex afterwards. In other words….he had the right to engage in the act of sex with me as my husband but he acted immorally by abusing me while engaging in sex with me.

    Now…is it the sex itself that is immoral…or his behavior and treatment of me while engaging in it?

    So, simple words here Ali…its not SEX itself which is immoral…its how you treat someone regarding it. Two people consenting to sex is NOT immoral…two people caring and sharing loving feelings towards each other while engaging in sex is NOT immoral. One person abusing another while engaging in sex IS immoral. One person cheating on another to have sex with someone else IS immoral. One person having sex with someone they shouldnt be, as in rape, incest, pedophilia etc IS immoral….because your are hurting that persons feelings, breaking their trust, ignoring their humanity, etc etc etc.

    You seem to be finding this a hard concept to grasp.

    I realize that for a great many Muslims the morality of sex is centered between the legs of every single female currently living in a Muslim country…but until you realize that its not the sex itself that enrages you and makes you feel violated but the broken trust and feelings of being treated as garbage or less than that upsets people the most….then you will realize that how we FEEL about something is what our morality is based on.

    Stealing something upsets the one stolen from…not cause the thing is now gone so much as because the trust was broken that THAT thing belonged to me and you disregarded my right to ownership of it.

    The same for rape (and I have been raped so I know what it feels like during…and after)…its not the act of sex itself that hurts the most, bruises and injuries eventually fade…its that overwhelming feeling of loss of control and ownership over your own body that someone else viciously takes away that hurts the most…that makes it immoral…not so much the sex itself.

    Have sex with a girl that wants you…and then have sex with a girl that doesnt…see the difference in her reaction….then if you have the guts for it…go ask her a few months later what hurt her more…that sex occured or that it was forced on her disregarding her feelings about it.

  450. ‘They dnt care how Islam gave women folowing rights that no other regligion gives’

    The problem here is you are trying to argue the validity/superiority of one religion over the other to people who DO NOT believe in religion, ANY religion. So, rather than trying to compare Islam with some other religion you should compare it to say The Universal Code of Human Rights. Why doesn’t KSA adopt that? Does equal rights for all humans go against Islam?

  451. medina,

    ‘ratonalism/logic is more dangerous than religious dogma’

    exactly!

  452. @Azad

    Ok I found your reply to Jay. I still didn’t see an answer to the questions he posted. All you did was say that Muslims respect Muhammad and then go off on a rant about Christians and Jesus.

    I wanted answers to Jay’s questions about why Muslims need to obey BOTH Allah and Muhammad. Why when you say the shahada you have to confirm that Muhammad is his messenger? Why do you have you show faith in Allah AND Muhammad.
    Is the line that Jay quoted “Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment, etc…” not from the Quran or hadiths? Because I have to say that line does make it seem as if Muhammad has the same status as Allah.

    Jay also brought up something I found remarkable in Mormonism also. Why is that prophecies seem to favor the prophet? Allah said 4 wives were allowed but curiously Muhammad got to have more? How convenient. Same thing happened when Joseph Smith wanted more than one wife. God conveniently gave a prophesy that told his first wife she would be condemned if she didn’t accept it.

    So when Jay says this, “In fact, Allah is just numero tres in veneration, behind Mohammad, a black stone (all Muslims still bow down to rocks, just like the pagans did before Islam) and in third place, way behind, is poor Allah. Have you ever seen a Muslims upset about people disrespecting Allah? Nope! Now draw a silly picture of Mohammad and they froth at the mouth.” he is wrong? Why?

  453. Actually matriarchal religions give women true rights. It’s the patriarchal religions which limit women’s rights. Islam limits it severely. There is enough in islam to limit women’s rights, and to perpetuate the myth that women are deficient in their minds.

    Anybody want a reminder? Men can beat their wives, that is allowed by Allah, and it is in the Quran, because when you bu a car or another appliance, you also get a manual, and so god has provided Muslim men with a manual, it says ”beat them” , in all it’s wondrous nature…
    It is clearly not meant as a manual for women: I have never been able to find anything in the Quran which tells women what to do when their husband is the one who deserves a beating.

    The right to get beaten is one I could easily do without.

  454. Medina…

    Hold on there! You are accusing me of something that is not fair…go back and read the exchange….I didn’t bring up kitty’s background…Lynn asked her where she was from and Kitty told her she was Italian and then asked Lynn if she knew where she might be from because she spoke Afrikaans. When Lynn did not address it then Kitty asked her AGAIN if she had Googled Aafrikans yet…up to this point I was not even in the conversation…I jumped in to tell Kitty I knew she was from South Africa where they speak that language. She then stated that she was not from the COUNTRY of south africa, but that the whole region spoke that language and restated that she was Italian because her father was. THEN I asked her an honest question because I was interested why she didn’t mention her mother’s heritage…I thought it might be a cultural thing to go by the fathers identity only. I was polite and nice to her about it….if you read the entire exchange you will see that it was at the tail end and my final question was out of curiosity about culture not nastiness…if Kitty wants to answer she can if not no problem.

    what is wrong with you guys? YOU guys bring up family or heritage and then when we ask about it or elaborate you get all offended and tell us not to bring family into it.

  455. Actually Medina if you read the background of the bombing of Japan you will find that the government and president both ran the numbers in dropping the bomb or invading Japan…They found after playing out both scenarios if America had gone into Japan that MILLIONS MORE innocent people would have been killed. Faced with a bad option (dropping the bomb and getting the surrender quickly) and a worse one (invading and killing millions more people on both sides in a protracted war…actually it was the Japanese who would suffer the most losses) The President took the option that preserved the most life and got it over with the quickest. Of course, there is a third option and that would be not to respond at all to the attack by the Japanese. But then again I think even Prophet Mohammed would say it is OK to fight a Jihad when defending your lands, right?

  456. @aafk,
    You can not disprove the science in the Quran. I think I provided you by many facts and many America professors who acknowledged these scientific facts in the Quran.

    Your example is a positive sign of security but what could happen if there is no security and people are in need? This is the real test of the morals that are developed by logic; people will break them easily and by logic because there is nothing to deter them except their personal principles. For example, america nuked Japan, america used weapons of mass destructions in Iraq, etc. and there are many examples where rational people have no morals and they break their principles easily. These days, read about the american scandals in the memos released by wikileaks. I am sure there are many top secrets at the wikileaks that could reveal to you to see America from INSIDE even though America crys for HUMAN RIGHTS and stand for democracy and HUMAN RIGHTS. plz think about it. I am sure you have the potential to discover this fact.

    @cool,
    He is horrible and he does not represent the good Muslim. Please do not use this style of writing again because it bothers me. You are using tangible sexual words. I also disagree with you in using the word sex. Couples make love and they do not make sex. I think the one who makes sex is just the one who is for one night stand.

    @Lynn,
    MD stated the women rights in Islam very well. I disagree of some Muslims men behaviours like polygamy but it is misunderstood by Muslim scholars and I disagree with them. I have my own understanding based on the concept of Justice. God says if you can not make justice between wives, marry one wife ONLY. Justice to me is not to upset your wife and you must consult her and take her permission if you want to marry a second wife. Saudi Arabia also is not a perfect model of Islam. I admit that we have mistakes but these mistakes are due to one fact that Ijtihad door is locked since the 18th century. Ijtihad means to criticise the literature of the previous Muslims scholars and to come up with contemporary reading of Islam that suits this era of time. This is the ONLY problem that Muslims are suffering from. It is the blockage of the Ijtihad door. Once, this door is opened, I am sure Muslims will be able to overcome all these concerns. I would like also to comment on the Human rights code. For example, Human rights are against capital punishment. Why? The sad fact is that human rights are ONLY for the rights of the criminals, people who committed murders. I will ask you also about the Human rights of the victim, his kids, and the innocent people in the society who may be killed by the same way. Capital punishment saves the Human rights of the innocent people like you and me in long term. Capital punishment is to deter the future criminals. Do not be narrow mind and to ONLY think about the human rights of the criminal. Think about how many lives are going to be saved in the future by applying the capital punishment. You think that humans are nice and good? Wake up. People will slaughter you in the street if there is no security; think about genocide in Rwanda, Haiti. These people are humans too but look what did they do when there was no security? They slaughtered each other in public. And please never ever think that your people are different. They are the same mentality. They are all human beings but this is the human mentality. Whenever they feel that they are not watched, they will violate laws, human rights etc.

    @suraya,
    Thanks for this post and the previous one in the other article.

  457. @Medina : ‘he does not even read or writes and he has never been to any other country but the Quran stats scientific facts discovered’

    Even if he didn’t ever leave his own country he DID come in contact with people from ALL over. Remember the caravan business? Remember that he lived in a pilgrimage area where people from ALL over with all different levels of education came.

  458. Aafke…

    the country shopping is lovely…there are places in the USA where you can still find that…very nice…It’s called the HONOR system.

  459. @Aafke: ‘The stand is not guarded, the money in the pot or box is not guarded.
    And yet it works’

    We have the same things here in this bastion of immorality called the USA

  460. oby, I understand why you asked kitty about her mother, you wants to know why kitty took this position. You want to relieve yourself that her mum is not a native western mum, at least this is your wish. So, your questions about personal stuff are not honest. You have issue in your mind. I really feel you are suffering from Islamophobia.

    Your logical justification of nuking Japan proved my point that logic is more dangerous than any religious dogma.

  461. Ori,

    Yes the Quran mentions Allah and Muhammad. So what is the Problem with this? Why can’t Quran mention both at the same time. If Allah is the Creator, He can mention how He wants it. Why the emphasis on the Prophet – because he was the final one and unlike other prophets, he was sent for whole mankind. It is not joint authority. When the Quran talks about the creations or His authority, only His Name is mentioned but when it comes to creed of ISlam, the Prophet is mentioned because if there is no belief in the prophethood, it does not make much sense, does it? For example “Obey Allah and His Messenger” – because what the Prophet is saying is from Allah. He can’t say “Obey Allah or His Messenger”.

    You ask “I wanted answers to Jay’s questions about why Muslims need to obey BOTH Allah and Muhammad.”
    The simple reason why is that Muhammad is commanded to convey the Message of Allah. You see, if you don’t obey Muhammad, you are disobeying Allah. “Obeying” in the sense of the MEssage. The prophet was given the revelations of Islam, he taught the people the Nessage. How can you worship and believe in Allah if you reject the prophet who taught you about this truthful message? Silly, isn’t it?

    Quran also talks about all Prophets as being equal and makes no distinction between them. THis is a Paul belief of making God equal to the messenger. And this was what the Prophet was a fraid of when he said “Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle”. He also said “All services rendered by words, acts of worship, and all good things are due to Allah”. Did he include himself?

    When it comes to creations, Allah does not mention the prophet. So it is a very simple logic to this. Beieving in Allah and the PRophet is the first creed of Islam. Believing in Allah means you believe in the prophethood, and believing in the prophet means you believe in Allah.

    I have never heard that “and” can mean “equal”.

    Other questions were repeated so many times that it is just too much. I mean how much can it be repeated. Its like no one reads. They only ask.

  462. So hurting the feelings of others is immoral according to Coolred38 and others? Well then this shows the west to be immoral when they hurt the feelings of millions of Muslims by drawing picture of their Prophet. When you refer to Muslims as terrorist while the west have commited the most henious of crimes; When you burn the Quran;
    And all those who hurt the Muslims in this blog by bashing Islam. You are openly proving you are immoral by your own logic.

    Or is it only immoral to hurt to feelings of your own culture and kind?

  463. @lynn,
    “Even if he didn’t ever leave his own country he DID come in contact with people from ALL over. Remember the caravan business? Remember that he lived in a pilgrimage area where people from ALL over with all different levels of education came.”

    You need to read the biography of the prophet Mohmmad Lynn.

  464. Medina…

    You’re wrong… believe me or not. I ALREADY knew she was not arab because she SAID she was Italian…it was an idle question not intended to trap anyone…too bad once someone makes a mistake you are unable to forgive or trust again.

  465. @Medina: Whenever they feel that they are not watched, they will violate laws, human rights etc.

    That is a false statement just as is a statement that says that if you are ‘rational’ rather than religious you will act immorally.

    I am not religious and there is NO law against me having sex with someone other than my husband but I still would not do it. How can you explain that?

  466. oby lol
    It does not reach to the level of forgiveness or questioning trust. My post is a friendly remark to you. You can accept it and you can refuse it. I did not get upset of you when you talked about my father. You want me to get upset now? (:

  467. @Medina. If I were to read the biography of Mohammed I would not read that he used to accompany his uncle on trade journeys to Syria? When he himself was a merchant who did he trade with? Mecca was a pilgrimage site well before Islam. Who came there? How far did they travel? Did they trade with Mohammed?

  468. Sarah…I have never drawn a cartoon of the prophet…nor has a majority of the world.. And how do you know “millions” of Muslims were hurt by those cartoons? Did you ask them all? I, for one, wasnt hurt. I could care less about a cartoon. How does that HURT me? How does that hurt the prophet?

    And if you are so hurt by a cartoon rendition of the prophet enough to get bent out of shape and in some cases riot and kill people…then why not do the same for all those depictions of other prophets (and not all of them good for sure)? Beeeeeecause this prophet is venerated above all others and seen as divine. Period.

    I personally have never called anyone a terrorist and a majority of the world hasnt either…so whats your point on that one? And YES if the west (and by west I mean those activetly involved…not the whole hemisphere by default) are acting immorally then theyare immoral. Im not arguing with you on that one….why are you getting defensive about it.

    Burning a Quran is like drawing a cartoon…how can that hurt you? And when I say hurt…I dont mean upset you and get your ire up…I mean f**king physically hurt you, hurt your body hurt your soul hurt your mind….something long lasting and stays with you forever. Tell me Sarah, do you lay awake at night and cry because someone burned a Quran somewhere or drew a cartoon? Do you feel as if a certain part of your soul was destroyed when they burned the Quran or drew that cartoon? How were YOU hurt by that Sarah? Please let me know so I can understand it better.

    Yes, I personally have acted immoral in my life. Who hasnt I would like to know (show of hands)….but I dont use a religion to pass my immoral behavior off as a messed up code of ethics given to me by God…and then declare anyone that doesnt follow it, bow down to it, or subject themselves to it are at my mercy and or going to hell.

    But then thats just me. And that stands for any religion.

  469. Medina, I am the one that was asking Kitty where she was from and that was because I had thought that perhaps she was American (this post is about the immorality of the west and she talked about the ill treatment and looks that ‘her Saudi’ gets on the streets so I thought she was talking about the US or the ‘west’) I was curious why she could find such an insult to the family in the figure of speech such as ‘Didn’t your parents teach you…’ See, where I come from I don’t think a single soul would consider that some kind of insult to the parents but rather a reminder of what parents taught you.

    Why does every comment have to have some ulterior motive to ‘trap’ people?

  470. Medina…the word “sex” bothers you and you dont want me to use it because of that? Really? How old are you again?

    Not everyone “makes love” when they have sex…but they do have sex even when they are making love.

    My choice of words are my own and will not be changed to suit the sensitivities of you or anyone. Im not saying anything wrong or vulgar….dont like my comments…dont read them. Freedom to pass them by…all yours big guy.

  471. Sarah, when you say that the ‘west’ is immoral based on YOUR values that are based on your religion are you hurting the feelings of those in the ‘west’?

    Is hurting feelings immoral or not? I’m so confused!

  472. Coolred38
    I am not pointing persnally at you. I did not say you did those things… get over it!

    I am sdpeakign generlly. Besides no one things the prophetas devne – read my reply to that above.

  473. Lynn, I have noticed that especially Americans ask you very often where you are from. And that it is often used as a friendly approach, and a sign of interest in your person, and a way to break the ice and start a nice conversation.
    Very nice really, don’t see why anybody should get upset about that.

  474. Coolred38
    If you meant, that it is immoral to hurt physcally someone, then I am sorry, I misunderstood you.

    But I remember someone else saying that to hurt feelings was immoral.

  475. Sarah…Im the one who said hurting feelings is immoral…but maybe I should clarify.

    Telling me im ugly hurts my feelings…but it doesnt necessarily make you immoral. Just rude. Having a rude opinion is not immoral.

    Reaching out and phsyically hurting me, or treating me in a way that lessens my humanity, takes something from me that cant be given back….(if you take my innocence, my trust, my faith, my humanity, my life etc etc) then you have acted immoral towards me because the affect of that is deep, long lasting, and cant be given back to me. When I say feelings are hurt I dont mean petty stuff that pisses you off now or makes you tear up now but tomorrow its yesterdays news…no no no…I mean those feelings that go down deep and remind you of how it made you hurt 20 years later when you think about it.

    Calling me ugly might hurt me right now…but oppressing me with culture, religion, or anything else that renders me less than hurts me forever…and when you (any you *sigh*) then you are acting immoral towards me. There is a difference.

  476. Well I must say Medina of all the people I have met on this blog you are the first one to accuse me of Islamophobia…I would not have expected it of you in particular…you are making fantasies in your own mind. In rereading your point I am not sure what you are actually saying. That I wanted to be sure she is of Western heritage thru her mom? Is that it? Or I wanted to make sure she was a nonwesterner? I am a bit confused by your point…

    Regardless your point is mute…

    KITTY brought up her heritage TWICE, not me and it is unusual to only claim half of your heritage (at least in the USA) so when she identified herself through her father only it made me curious. I thought it might be a thing in her country. The truth is I don’t care where she comes from…it makes no difference to me if she is western, arab, 1/2 muslim, full muslim, born muslim or converted…

    As far as islamophobia goes…I find that funny because I feel I have, for the most part, been very clear about the difference between extremism and the damage political islam is doing to your faith and peaceful muslims who practice and live their lives and don’t try to foist their faith on non muslims….BIG difference and I have gone out of my way to make a distinction…

    If being against political islam/extremism and having it spread in my world is Islamophobic to you then we have very different ideas of what is islamophobic.

  477. Medina…

    “Your logical justification of nuking Japan proved my point that logic is more dangerous than any religious dogma.”

    Actually YOU just proved my point that the Nasty bits should be left in the past….you said that war is justified as per Islam if one is to protect their country…even today. So how is it that it is OK for Muslims to protect their country if attacked as per Islam and the Prophet , but it isn’t OK for Non Muslims to do the same?

  478. #’Your logical justification of nuking Japan proved my point that logic is more dangerous than any religious dogma’

    Well Medina so in the name of religion you would have killed millions of people.
    Regarding your comments on Wiki Leaks. You seem not to be aware that humans often think one thing and say something a little different, just like diplomacy.
    Wonder what Saudi diplomats thinks ?
    ‘#Md. Ali Shah
    I have just a few comments on your multiple lines of
    misunderstandings and mingling small parts of fact with a lot of believing.
    Regarding Hijab and Eid, why make research, when you have a family.You are wrong, but you don’t want to admit it.

    ‘Just like Islam controlled using Alcohol steps by step, slavery was controlled step by step with a lots of rules and regulations.’

    You are wrong muslims were just as bad slaveholders as everyone else. But dream on.

    “There are 10 million unmarried women in Russia, who are dying to find a man to marry.” ……What solution u suggest?”
    None there isn’t 10 million unmarried russian women.
    Why don’t you waste your precious words on the millions of unmarried saudi women. With support in the Quran it should be easy to solve, not at least when you take in consideration that about 1/3 more men between 15 and 60.

  479. Medina…

    You said the US should be embarrassed by the wikileaks…have you read them? Do you realize it was King Abdullah who, along with the rest of the Middle East was pushing the USA to attack Iran? I find that highly amusing considering we are talking about morality and he USA is always said by the Islamic world to be trying to destroy islam by it’s imperialistic attacks…

    Your dear king urged the USA on numerous occasions to go after Iran and the USA showed restraint. Ironically it was a Muslim country and region who wanted the USA to attack another Muslim country.

    What does annoy me about this whole thing is that KSA has been pushing hard as have other MENA countries yet no one will publicly say it supports the USA in it’s actions…It wants Iran gone AND it doesn’t want to stink for the actions to get that done…it expects the USA to do the whole dirty deed and take full responsibility…my guess is not one of these countries was willing to pony up the money to help pay for such a war. So the AMERICAN citizens get to have the honor of not only paying for the war which is being urged by MUSLIM countries, it will take world condemnation and heat for it while the big guys back in Saudi et al enjoy the fruits of the USA’s labor…Oh and no doubt, it would be cloaked as the Zionists who control the USA that initiated the attack. Meanwhile the Middle East wouldn’t make a peep about the truth of the matter.

  480. Oh Oby! Now it is clear to me!
    The Zionists are actually Saudi Arabia!!!!

  481. @Medina,

    “You can not disprove the science in the Quran. I think I provided you by many facts and many America professors who acknowledged these scientific facts in the Quran.”

    You have not provided one example.

    The fetus development claim was known before Islam by over 1000 years. You need to read more.

    Also, Islam copied the same mistakes exactly as the ancient Greeks had them. The problem you have is that you are of a limited education, so all these claims just pass by you. I know Saudi does not educate you on any history outside of Islamic history, but you really should seek more knowledge to become educated before you make large claims.

    By the way Medina, every claim made about miraculous revelations in Islam and Christianity have been debunked. You can easily find these discussions online if you spend a little of effort educating yourself. The evidence for scientific discoveries requires facts, study, research, etc. Religion is based on faith. You will do yourself a big favor, if you leave religion and science separated since they are inherently different.

  482. @median, The challenge is still on.

    Throwing ideas that there are American or Western professors have proved these miracles is just talk. Show us what studies and what proves. Anyone can say there is this anonymous expert that supports me. By the way in science, even an expert is questioned until his research is accepted through the scientific method.

  483. @Lynn,
    First of all, Prophet Mohammad was not a merchant. He went to Sham land, Syria, for two times to help Khadijah in her trade only. She hired him to do business for her because he was an honest young guy. Second, Quran was revealed to the prophet Mohammad for 23 years. This means that if the source of Quran is pilgrims, Prophet Mohammad would not be able to write 114 chapters in the Quran because he has been oppressed by Meccans and forced to immigrate to Medina at the beginning of his call to Islam. There are also many incidences happened prove that Mohammad is a messenger of God.

    Regarding your post about Kitty, I know that you asked Kitty where she came from but you did not ask her about her parents.

    @cool,
    I did not say I am sensitive to your use of the word sex, I said your style of writing bothered me because it has some sexual implications. Sorry, but this is what I felt. I know that I have the right to pass your post but because I am interesting to read your post, I left this note for you. You can consider my request and you can ignore it. And yes I am young and I have been raised up in away that sex talk is a taboo topic. Sorry but this is how I raised up.

    Now, comes to the upset lady (:
    I am sorry oby if you felt offended by my words. If you would like to know why I felt you suffer from Islamphobia, I can tell you why whether in private or here in this blog but be aware that I am debating with you for a year in this blog. Regardless of the so called “fantasies in my mind”, you told me now that I am wrong in my conclusion about you. I say to you I am sorry and I am happy that I am wrong.

    Regarding your saying that America nuked Japan because it is the only way to defend America and you compare that to Jihad. I am saying to you that using weapons of mass destructions is forbidden in Islam. Jihad has conditions and ethics. For example, during Jihad, do not attack the enemy at night, do not kill women, kids, and old people, do not cut trees, and do not terrify civilians. These are the ethics of Jihad. Nuking a city and killing children, women, men, and old people are war crimes against HUMANITY. I feel sad that you justify such horrible act against innocent people by the name of the American national security based on logic and rationalism. So what is more dangerous and horrible now? The logic of course is the most dangerous.

    Regarding Wikileaks, I read these memos in Saudi TV Channels for news. First, I condemn wars by all means and I always think and believe that negotiation and conversation are the ONLY way to solve political conflicts and tensions not nuclear weapons as you proposed. War is always launched to give the war partners good position in negotiation on a round table. So, no need for wars while they are going to sit on a round table for negotation.

    Why America should feel embarrassed by Wilileaks? The embaeeasment are due to many factors. One of the main reasons is that America is going to lose its trust with its allies in the region. Second, wikileaks memos proved that America is supporting Kurdish terrorist organization at the border of Turkey. Third, America is spying on the UN members, etc, you can have a look at the newspapers that published wikileaks. Regarding Saudi and ME position, I also feel it is shame as much as you feel but I will tell you that Saudi already paid the bill of this war, 90 billions dollars to America which is what America is searching for. So I would say also that America is using Iran to posing a threat to the GCC countries and Arabs to get Arab’s support in Afghanistan and Arab money. It is the same tactic that America did in the gulf war 1 and 2 by using Saddam Hussein for executing this role.

    Note for people who seem that they have no eyes and no ears, I encourage them to educate themselvies by watching the movies that I posted above. It has all the proofs that they are looking for.

  484. @MD,

    “People can do facebook but not sex in office. People do not do sex even with wife in public place but take coffee togather in public place.
    If its not morality, what is this?”

    Your issue here is if sex is not practiced in public then it has to have morality associated with it. That is a false premise as you are not separating the concept of morality from decency. Public display can be looked at in a similar way to going to the bathroom. We close a door and do it, but it is certainly not immoral. It is not decent to have sex in public in the same way as it is not decent to go to the bathroom in public. Please get the concept this time.

    Regarding, morality attached to sex. I do not think sex is immoral. It can result in immoral things. Example it is immoral to not take responsibility for your kids. I leave it at that. I look at the specific immoral act and call it immoral, I do not call sex immoral. I also understand that you have an opinion that to stop parents from avoiding responsibility for their kids, then sex outside the marriage is immoral. That is perfectly fine, as long as you do not enforce it on others.

    In my interviews with Carol, I talked about common morality. In this case of sex common morality indicates that it is the freedom of an adult person over his/her own body. You do not have the right to tell that person what to do with his/her body. However, you also have the ability to go beyond common morality and impose more strict requirements on yourself. Say you will not have sex outside of marriage. You can call them MDs morals and that is perfectly fine. Just do not force it into common morals.

  485. @Medina: Perhaps YOU are the one that should read the biography of Mohammed. Perhaps you would also appreciate a class about Pre-Islamic History of Arabia.

    http://imamshirazi.com/prophet-biography.html#_Toc93317152

    ‘As a youngster Muhammad used to accompany his uncle on his business trips to Syria . When the Messenger of Allah reached the age of twelve he journeyed with his uncle Abu Talib as far as Busra. There he was seen by a Christian monk named Georges who recognised him by his description. He took his hand and said: ‘This is the chief of the Worlds, God will send him as a mercy to the Worlds.’ Abu Talib said: ‘How do you know this?’ He said: ‘We find mention of him in our books.’ He asked Abu Talib to take him back fearing for his safety.
    As an adult, Muhammad worked as a trader between the cities of Mecca and Damascus , and earned a great reputation in the process. Having heard of the reputation of Muhammad, Lady Khadijah, one of the noblest of the Quraysh, on one occasion commissioned him to take charge of some of her trading business between the two cities’

    I can’t wait to see how this whole Wiki Links business plays out.

    http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV1011-4367

  486. Wiki LEAKS I meant

  487. Medina…

    One last thing about Kitty and then I want to lay it to rest because it is became a way bigger deal than it was meant to be and as I said in my message to her, she could answer or not. It wasn’t that important….Lynn didn’t ask about her parents…true…but I didn’t ask about them either until Kitty brought up her father HERSELF and TWICE mentioned her father and left out her mom. as I said in USA we always say ” I am such and such on my mom’s side and such and such on my father’s side” We don’t leave out a parent and she was being so mysterious asking TWICE if Lynn knew where they spoke afrikaans thereby pursuing the topic…she threw the subject on the table and when I was wrong about her country I then became curious because I was not aware that aafrikaans was spoken outside of South Africa. We know she is a Muslim and if I had to guess I would say she is a convert because she expresses herself quite well. So what? That is unrelated to why I asked her about her mom…it seemed odd that one wouldn’t mention mom since she gives half her genes…plain and simple.

    I do agree with you that we should talk issues out and without doubt it would be preferable. If we threw all the leaders into a room together and told them “no food or water until you guys work it out” I think it would be a lot faster!!!! A peaceful solution is always better but sadly is not always possible… sometimes others are the aggressors.

    After reading some (I admit I have not read all…damn dry reading) I am not sure that there is anything there that is surprising…I mean we knew that the leaders of the Middle East are corrupt. Most likely a lot of the things revealed about the USA were either known or strongly suspected…also I don’t think it is a big secret that what one says in polite company is not always what one says to their inner circle. The USA said some rude things about world leaders…so what? As if they haven’t said rude things about the USA leaders. It is just that the USA was caught at being rude…politics is an ugly game and not gentlemanly at all!

    The point I was trying to make is that the Islamic world is convinced that the USA is trying to destroy islam and has no concern for Muslim lives…ask average joe on the street of any islamic country…here it was shown that not only KSA but the ENTIRE Middle Eastern region is afraid of Iran’s nuclear capabilities and they are asking the USA to do the dirty deed because they ( the MENA countries) are afraid to do the job themselves…what I find most disturbing is that they want the USA to go to war with Iran for the benefit of the Middle Eastern countries and NO ONE in the group is willing to stand up and publicly stand by the USA side and say that they agree with the (potential) attacks. Instead they would encourage the US to attack Iran and when it is done they would sit back and condemn us publicly and smile smugly to themselves that Iran is no longer a “problem” and they will enjoy the benefits…meanwhile the USA is internationally condemned, we incite even more hatred in the Islamic world, we have to deal with ever more terrorism within our borders and around the world, and the American taxpayer gets to foot the bill for the honor of helping the Middle East solve the Iran problem. It is a total win for the M.E. and a losing proposition for the USA (outside of the fact that Iran will be nullified.)

    Don’t you think if someone asks you to do the dirty work for them that those asking SHOULD help in some way such as financial or FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY have a minimum of courage to say “we support them” to the world? They want Iran nullified AND they want to appear innocent!

    Something the average guy on the street in the Middle East should get out of this is that a MUSLIM country and entire Muslim region was asking a NON Muslim country( that supposedly has no value for muslims lives) to attack another MUSLIM country and it was the NON MUSLIM country that showed restraint and didn’t attack and tried to solve it through diplomatic channels.

    At least when the USA invaded Iraq, they and their western allies had the courage of their convictions to take all the heat and consequences. They had the courage to name it and claim it for better or worse. I didn’t agree with it in anyway…but the whole Middle East region is trying to hide behind the USA to do their dirty work. The LEAST they could do is stand by the USA publicly if it did do as the King and other M.E leaders asked.

    At the moment it is the USA…but when Mr Wikileaks starts exposing KSA or Australian secrets people will be whistling another tune.

  488. Oby, it doesn’t seem strange to me for someone to ask what my heritage is on my mother’s side. Like you said, I include both sides when someone asks about that. Seems so normal to include the woman who contributed so much to who I am.

    A few of my Arab friends have been discussing the Wikileaks stuff on my Facebook page. Samer thinks it just exposes the Arab leaders for what he has said about them all along: corrupt, sucking up to the US and trying to keep themselves in power. They don’t represent the average person in the region. He thinks it’s great to see their shamefulness and hypocrisy exposed.

    By the way, I don’t understand why Medina got all riled up when you asked something about his father. I’m almost positive HE brought up his parents first and when you took that line of conversation and used it in your next statement to him, he seemed all offended that you dared to bring his family into it. I guess it’s just cultural differences. If I mentioned my dad, I would never be offended if you then mentioned him.

    And, Aafke, yes, I like asking people where they are from especially if they have a cool accent. 😀 Most Americans I know like accents. And I like people from other cultures and countries so I like striking up conversations and learning more if I am able. Thanks for understanding this about us. We don’t mean to be rude. 🙂

  489. @Coolred,

    I just got caught up on some of the discussion here.

    I am sorry you had to endure such a relationship. I really admire your courage of taking charge of your life and getting out of the situation. I have read a couple of articles on your blog and I think you have done fantastic. I for one think you are heroic, keep strong.

    @Medina, When coolred talked about her abusive relationship, all you had in response is how she hurt your virgin ears with the sex references. You are a cruel person that has no sensitivities towards others. Your true nasty nature just showed up there. This goes deep with you doesn’t it? When women are abused all what you think about is yourself and how you got offended by her words. Acts of rape and beatings of a woman did not move you. All your positions are anti women, including your previous rants about punishing the victims by locking them up because men may go after them (the caged bird theory). You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Bedu, sorry about the rant. But someone had to tell this little prick how we feel about his insensitive comments.

  490. Coolred38
    Thanks for the clarification. And I agree with you completely. Hurting someone, and scarring to that extent is immoral by anyone’s standards. I am sorry that you had to go through that. And I sincerely wish the best for you.

    So now you must see how many families in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine are scarred in the same way, children who died leaving young mothers, or children who have lost their parents, wives raped in front of their husbands and kids. This must be hurting them, too, physically and emotinally. And so many other, not to mention what was done to the Abu Gharib prisoners. Wouldn’t you say it is immoral? To attack a country illlegally is not immoral?

    Median,

    I understood the reason why Oby asked about Kitty’s mother. It was just a curiousity because of the way Kitty talked only about her father. It is only natural one will think about the other parent, especially when one mentions being “half” something. I am surprised that you saw something deep into it and thinking that she was wishing Kitty to be non-western.

    Oby,
    You can’t be that naive about the how USA deals with countires that seem a threat to her. USA employs the same strategy everywhere. They create an enemy (a pawn) and work around that to get what they want. It is obvious. And yes those they play around with are just not seeing that because the tactics they use are very convincing that they almost trap the other leaders to fall in. It is almost like they have no other choice. You must see that, surely.

  491. Susanne, Not only did Saudi Arabia try to push the USA into a war with Iran, it is also pressuring China, which is heavily dependent on Saudi crude oil, by veiled treats. A nasty game.
    Funny Wikileaks is suddenly a big item on the thread, I have posted a couple of interesting videos about it on my blog:
    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/to-leak-or-not-to-leak/

    If I am in another country I like talking to the people there. ”Where are you from?” is an excellent way of starting out. It shows interest in the other in a polite way.
    And yes, the Americans love my accent, which I love in turn 😀
    On the whole I found American people very friendly and open to talking to you. I had a weird incident once though. But I will put that in a post on my blog maybe some time.

    Medina, I am sure that must have hurt your sensitive feelings, to hear what can happen to a woman in Muslim culture, your movie ”Hostel” in real life. In real Muslim life. And how embarrassing, this woman managed to get out of it and keep her children as well, in a culture which would deny her all these things. And here this ”bird” is, strong and capable and uncaged, actually talking about it all!
    How uncomfortable you must feel…
    I am só sorry for you.

    Ah, well, Moq said it all.

  492. Sarah, I am sorry for you too. You read the heartrending story of a woman who has suffered the most horrendous abuse for many years, and all you can do is gloss over her story and use it to push your own agenda.
    I am just speechless about your empty, callous, heartless, wicked soul.
    I feel truly disgusted to have been reading the comments of such cold heartless evil creatures like you and Medina.
    You have nothing to offer because you lack the the one thing which makes us human: A heart, and all which that encompasses.

    It’s you two, Sarah and Medina, who are the real inhuman ”breathing machines”.

  493. I am so angry right now. I am so friggin’ ANGRY!
    I want you to know that my last two comments are euphemistic in the extreme.
    I cannot express my true feeling in proper words here.
    Actually there are no words…

    I am só utterly disgusted!

    You two should get married, a match made in hell.
    Hell is a cold place, there are no fires. It is a cold empty place without compassion and love.
    You two fit right in.

  494. oh, and by the way?
    This is real immorality. This is the real basis of immorality, a cold and selfish nature, only seeing the world through it’s own egotistical point of view. This is where all immorality stems from, this is where it starts.

    If your mind works like this you are capable of any and every immoral thought and action.
    And it’s pretty evenly distributed around the world. At the most some ”cultures” nourish this mindset more than others, that’s all.

    And Medina and Sarah, thank you for demonstrating to us which culture/religion that would be.

  495. So hurting the feelings of others is immoral according to Coolred38 and others? Well then this shows the west to be immoral when they hurt the feelings of millions of Muslims by drawing picture of their Prophet. When you refer to Muslims as terrorist while the west have commited the most henious of crimes; When you burn the Quran;
    And all those who hurt the Muslims in this blog by bashing Islam. You are openly proving you are immoral by your own logic.

    Or is it only immoral to hurt to feelings of your own culture and kind?
    ————————————————————

    [maroon]

    Very nice reply Sarah. I could not go through all posts somehow browsed just to get glimpse.

    No, u are wrong. its morality to ignore good things if its said by Islam but bashing Islam, prophet, making cartoon, burning Quran is morality.

  496. Aafke, I’d like to read about that one weird incident that you may post on your blog one day. I have your blog in Google Reader so I’ll look for it there. Thanks!

  497. @Coolred38 ,

    I couldn not accept all ur long explanation. Porn stars do sex without feelings, people go to visit pros without feeling of love but no one in the world do sex in open market. Will u not accept that sex has some moral conduct?

    Anyway, I feel sad what happend to u. What ur husband does with u. U have full right to get divorce in this matter if he fails to change even though divorce is most disliked halal in the eyes of Allah.

    Show him following link on Sex to ur husband:

    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/1078

    May be he changes his way of life, that is haram.
    Also he beats u? So sad, thats haram.

    Show him plz.

    May Allah grace u and make ur life easy and peaceful.

  498. @MD,

    The fact that the west allows free expression works well, You should look at the constitution. The laws that allow the drawing of the cartoons are the same ones which allow Muslims to live in this country and enjoy the freedom to practice their religion.

    Drawing a cartoon, burning a book, burning a US flag (yes we allow that too) etc. are not acts of violence. There is no way you can regulate them without censoring expression.

    It works great for Muslims by the way. There are many of us that defended your constitutional rights to build a mosque near the 911 sight.

    You see MD without free expression protected by the US constitution , Muslims would lose more than what you think. I hope you dig deeper than these superficial arguments.

  499. Muhammad: The Most influential single figure: American Author:

    My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels…

    Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time..

    http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html#Muhammad

  500. Reasons Why Muhammad should be Ranked as Most Influential Person in History:

    http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ2.html

    PS: PLZ DO NOT ABUSE ME, ITS NOT MY LINK just like previous link on how woman changed with coming Islam by wiki

  501. So md Azad, you can also gloss over the heinous crimes committed against women, I suppose you think it was her own fault to start with. How could it be otherwise? Coolred is a woman so naturally she deserves any rape and beating her Islamic só devout husband likes to deal out to her.
    And as it is only natural that a husband should rape and beat his wife her testimony deserves no further comment, it is so much more ”moral” to use it to regurgitate your endless complains about the west.

    And you dare to compare years of mental torture, beatings, rape and child abuse with ”Muslims being upset” because somebody somewhere drew a bad cartoon of the god Mohammed???

    Thank you too for demonstrating the immoral effect Islam has on the human mind.

  502. ” I suppose you think it was her own fault to start with. How could it be otherwise? Coolred is a woman so naturally she deserves any rape and beating her Islamic só devout husband likes to deal out to her.”

    =======================================

    Aafke-Art,

    I am fed up of ur blah blah. I share suffering of Coolred from heart. Please be a good listener and less questioner.

    U come like UNIX processor’s round robin fashion with same question without understanding what others say and other’s reply. Ur post is not related to me anyhow. Please spare me and take a break.

  503. Here’s a nice link, a native Arab speaking guy explaining to us the status of women in the Quran:

    This also explains why our devout Muslim commentators can, and do, gloss over the heartbreaking testimony of an abused woman.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TXHalabi?blend=2&ob=1#p/a/u/2/4OSkvR5cWws

  504. MoQ,

    I never said all Americans are bad. But, plz accept the hatred elements living there. Its so sad that u see and justify QUran burning, Prophet’s Cartoon as Freedom of expression when u urslef knows that its motive is with hatred that hurts 1.55 billion Muslims and many peace loving non-Muslims too.

    For ur info, Singapore jailed a christian couple for sending hatred mails agaisnt Islam for 3 years and fined $ 10K fine both. Will u says Singapore is run by religious dogma, having no freedom of expression? Signapore also has death punishment. But I feel so perfect.

    Its not US only which allows Muslims to live. There are millions of non-Muslims in Muslim countries too. No need to mention. As I said Arab which has only 18% of Muslim population doesnt represent Muslim world. Its also same US which put 13 years old kid in Guantanamo jail without trail. Its also US that attacked and killed million other innocents in all over wolrd and brought poverty, illeteracy, desease, immorality, prostitution, bombing from sky to kill innocents, conflicts by creating “Divide and rule” policy. Why it can not be accepted? US govt brought people of US to joblesness becoz of its inclinantion to war(one of major factor).

    This world was destroyed by US since 1990. Peace was lost permanently.

  505. @Aafke-Art ,

    One request, If u want to increase ur hatred and wants to kill urslef with hatred, keep looking baseless hatred based, fake links and sites.

    If u want to sleep peacefully and want to live a normal life with peace, see reliable, fact, unbiased links.

    A good and healthy, peaceful source of info never shows hatred info.

    For ur info, u will hardly find Muslims abusing other relgions, faith, holy books, prophets. Its non-Muslims (minority in figure)who do this kind of hate spreading task night n day. But its Muslims who reply, keep replying..since the start of world and it will be till the end of world. We do not abuse others and other’s faith.

  506. @MD,

    We have aa different world view on laws. I feel that freedom of expression should not be limited except in insighting violence.

    Now do I agree with burning of the Quran NO. Do I agree with building the Mosque at the sight in NY, NO. However, in both cases I will support teh constitutional rights for a person to do it.

    In the case of burning of the Quran Americans are the ones who stopped the cation. Not by government disallowing it. It was the American communities, political leaders, even Christian leaders, etc. who persuaded the preacher away from doing it You seem to forget all of that god well.

    Now regarding Singapore, Yes I think Singapore is limiting freedom of expression in this case.

  507. “Now do I agree with burning of the Quran NO. Do I agree with building the Mosque at the sight in NY, NO. However, in both cases I will support teh constitutional rights for a person to do it.”

    That is it in a nutshell…if we limit a person’s right to say what they think then we have to limit many more things…that includes the many muslims in the USA who would say hateful, vile horrible things against Americans…their freedom of speech is protected as well and there isn’t a darn thing I can do about it if I don’t like what they have to say…They have that right. They can step on our flag, they can burn our bibles (as long as they bought them themselves and own them outright.) they can say that the US constitution sucks and all Chrisitians are heathens and there isn’t a thing I can do about it! Now most probably wouldn’t I know…I am trying to make a strong point. Democracy isn’t run on feelings…it is run on protected freedoms for all.

  508. ‘# Md. Azad Ali Shah
    This world was destroyed by US since 1990’

    Why 1990 ?

  509. Sarah…

    You hit the nail on the head with my question to Kitty…thanks.

    The USA has it’s method of winning people to it’s side, no doubt..But King Abdullah is no dummy…neither are many of the leaders in the ME…corrupt yes…dumb in the ways of subterfuge and back door deals…NO! How do you think they have stayed in power for so long? To say that the USA “tricked” the Middle East is silly.

    First of all if they had tricked the ME it would be the USA trying to get the MENA countries to do the dirty work of Iran…not the other way around which the cables made very clear…the scenario you are suggesting would have the USA tricking ME leaders into begging the USA to attack Iran…if that was the case once USA got behind the scenes agreement why didn’t they do it? Instead they dragged their feet and didn’t do it…if they wanted to trick the MENA into “asking for it” why didn’t they then attack once they got the OK from everyone? Also these cables are supposed to be secret…why didn’t they show the USA congratulating itself privately on how they got the MENA leaders to agree to their diabolical plan?

    Sarah in this case the truth is clear…the MENA leaders wanted Iran out of the way but were to chicken to do it themselves…so they tried to convince the USA to do it for them…

    I have no problems with the MENA leaders wanting to disarm Iran…it makes sense as Iran is in their backyard and more of an immediate threat to them than it is to the USA (missile distance I mean). they are wanting to protect their countries…that is fine and what they should do. It doesn’t even surprise me that it is a “backdoor deal”. Big deal…that is how politics rolls. It is a dirty business.

    What I do have a problem with is that they are too cowardly to do it themselves OR at a minimum say that they support/stand by the USA if the USA did the dirty work. They want us to do it at our expense and to take international condemnation not to mention all the Americans that will be hugely pissed off at another war. Plus the whole Muslim world hating us once again. Why should we? When you have allies and friends and you go to a fight they generally come along to support you. They don’t urge you and put a “who me?” look of innocence on their face once the battle starts.

    IMO, the reason the MENA countries can’t/won’t stand behind the USA is that they have fueled anti american rhetoric for so long and fed it for so long to their citizens that it would be political suicide for them to declare that they support the USA. They simply can’t do it…people would completely freak out. They would be aligning themselves with the USA and that is unthinkable to the Islamic world.

    Secondarily, I think the leaders are cowardly in that they won’t declare that Iran is a problem for them because if they do then they actually have to take action and I am not sure any of them are able to do that. So they look to the USA to fight their battle and are too chicken to say that they have done so.

    USA is no innocent babe in the woods…but the cables show how hypocritical the MENA countries are. But of course, I am sure it will get spun in some convoluted way to make the USA completely in the wrong and the Middle East being duped…That doesn’t say much about Muslim leadership if they are ALL that dumb…which I don’t think they are… just dishonest and corrupt and now in panic mode to explain themselves to their people.

  510. @Azad: ‘US govt brought people of US to joblesness becoz of its inclinantion to war(one of major factor)’

    Some might say that the people of US were brought to joblessness because the govt was giving tax incentives for businesses to take their factories out of the country to third world countries try to boost up THEIR economies because we are told that those people are hateful and turn to terrorism or other immoral activities due to their extreme poverty. So Americans SACRIFICE for the sake of OTHERS and all y’all can do is talk about how IMMORAL we are! LOL

  511. Aafke
    You are really a strange woman and I hope you get help soon. I do not even feel sorry for you.

    You are a fine one to talk about “empty, callous, heartless, wicked soul”.

    I have sympathized with Coolred38 so many times in different threads. What do you want me to do. Write a book?

    You are a good example of “empty, callous, heartless, wicked soul”. You have showed no feelings whatsoever for those babies with broken bodies nor women raped mercilessly by moral soldiers. Do you ever think about the thousands who are killed daily and even now as you breath, breaths are taken away from innocent children in Palestine? Do you even care for those who burried alive under the rubbles or is it that you only have sympathy for your kind? And that is what you call moral? Ask anyone here if that is moral? What a show of “cold heartless evil creature” you are showing to be.

    And you think you have right to call someone wicked? Are you that much illerate? You have no idea about feelings or apathy, or sympathy, all you can think about is that “you have to be right” and sometimes you sound really idiotic. You have been robbed of any mercy or caring feelings in your souless body. I have never before talked about your trashy, bitchy dialog here but you are good at provking the people and frankly I think this is your intention. Your job here is to spread fitna and nothing else.

    I am sure if a Muslim talked like you did or do, she/he would have been reprimanded.

    You have a way of avoiding when challenged and have stupidly avoided my question to you and that is because you cannot digest when truth hits you.
    You, void of any human feelings makes you not only a breathing machine but a rusted one. Who cares if you are so freakin’ angry? Should the world pause for you? Get a life …. sheesh!

    And you know what, there is no match for you – even in hell! Thank you for demonstrating in your own wicked ways how immoral you personally can be.

    Coolred38 is one heck of a lady. She is strong, brave and most importantly she made her bad experience into a postive one by not drowning in sympathies or begging for it. She stood up and moved on! But you, Aafke, you cannot take it – because it is not what she went through that bugs you, but your own evil hunger to find faults with Islam and when you find one, its like finding a gem for you and you start puking venom all over the blog.

    Sorry, Carol, Moderator but you have only Aafke to blame as you can see her venom frothing out.

  512. @Sarah: ‘And you know what, there is no match for you – even in hell!’

    Hey now! Hold on just ONE minute! What about ME?? I work SO hard at being a bitch and Aafke gets the title? WTH?? FIXED!! Is it a prejudice against Americans or something?

  513. Sorry Lynn, only one can be the Über-bitch!
    😈

    Sarah, I have read enough of you; I know you for what you are.

    But the world is too good a place to have to spend time reading selfish heartless egotistical apologists for a culture/ religion which has no heart and no justice.
    I am really sick of every single comment, every post, every subject being twisted and misused to bring about some perceived affront of ”the west”.
    It is actually boring.
    Always the same strawman fallacies, always the same stuff about the west being brought up, always the same heartless egoism and apologies for a religion which really needs to have a more critical view of it’s own flaws, instead of pointing out those of others.

    I can actually already predict what certain people here are going to say.
    It’s getting boring.

    And today I felt soiled.
    Reading all these selfish arrogant heartless commentators.
    It’s unclean.
    Yuk.

  514. Aafke
    You were always soiled and will always be. I am glad that you realise it.

    Yes it is boring but still you show no remorse for the killers of inncent lives. What does that make you? You just want to be right. Your comments here are just a comic break for those who seek it.

    Your idea of morality is when street vendors leave their money out. What you don’t know is here, shopkeepers leave all their wares outside the shop to go to pray. So your idea of morality is valid here too – too bad.

    Lynn,
    You are too good to be on the same league as her!

  515. @Sarah ‘You are too good to be on the same league as her’

    [BIG curtsy]] Thank you very much m’lady 😉

    Aafke, you should spend more time in the US. We are so surrounded by filth and degradation that we are immune to this kind of soiling. But I admit it is pretty boring when it’s so predictable. Still I do feel a little sad for them. I remember how I felt when I first realised that my favorable opinions about Islam were based on nothing but a weak facade. (Note: I said Islam NOT Muslims, Muslims are INDIVIDUALS all to be judged independently)

  516. MD,

    About women: You find quotes you like but ignore those that demean and slander women. You also ignore reality and instead build a fantasy version of Islam that doesn’t exist and never existed. You ignore the references above about how your dear prophet abused women. If the fact that on two occasions he brutally killed mothers for criticizing him, and beat his own child-wife, not to mention the other vile deeds against women, if these mean nothing to you, you are as immoral as your prophet.

    Long ago this old man decided he would not make excuses for anybody (family, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, whites, Americans, whatever) and that true morality is the same for all, everywhere and all times. Now listen carefully: It is immoral to rape women; it is immoral to rob, attack and kill people; torture is immoral. Do you understand? So please do not talk about the rape of women in Bosnia unless you bring up the women of Banu-al Mustaliq being raped with the permission of your dear prophet. Was that common in war? Yes,it was/is but we don’t say the words “Praise be upon him” after the name of Serb soldiers, Japanese at Nanking, crusader or even Americans soldiers – and so on.

    Only Muslims have the double standards that blind them to all simple elements of honesty and morality.

    Islam is all about dominating others and women. As I said, your dear prophet did horrible things to women, according to your own writings – the same ones you cite. Note that only one woman is named in all of the Quran and Mohammad couldn’t even get her story right (compared to hundreds in the Bible)! That shows how little Allah cares for women and how little your prophet knew of other religions. And also, by logic, Muslims should not bother to quote Christians and Jewish scriptures because Muslims believe they are corrupt. So you and your Muslims friends are using words that you think are falsified or altered when you refer to the Bible. Now does that make sense? Why don’t you take the “perfect” words of Allah, all of them, not just the few that Muslims always use with infidels?

    So you post a few references that say nice things about women, but why don’t you add the many that vilify women? I could post an equal number of quotes that say women are evil, mostly go to hell, that say women are stupid, that Muslims beat wives, that nobody should ask why a man beats a woman, women are always wrong, etc… So what does this mean? That Islam is a focking mess of contradictions and inconsistencies.

    Here, explain 9:111 to me. Please look it up and kindly explain how it fits into your “Islam is peace” concept. Funny thing, when Muslims like you are defending islam, you seem to somehow forget the thousands of verses that slander infidels and call for hate and violence against us? Why? I have never said there are not “nice” verses in the Quran or good stories in the ahadith about your prophet. There are. So why can’t MUslims admit to the evil verses? What is wrong is that Muslims are dishonest because they refuse to recognize and deal with the inherent hate and violence in Islam.

    So what makes a young Muslim want to explode a bomb in a crowded Christmas three ceremony? He was there and saw men, women and children in the Square. What makes a Muslim put a bomb in his underwear and want to kill people – men, women and yes, children – on a plane with him? You have no answer because you are morally corrupt. You will blame it on something, anything, even when these people clearly saying they are doing it for…. Islam.

    The Quran and hadith are full of verses that call for and record violence against non-Muslims. Note: Bukhari, 7, 585. It is related from Anas ibn Malik, “When the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out with us on a raid against some people, he would not let us attack until after daybreak but would wait. If he heard the adhan, he refrained from attacking them, but if he did not hear the adhan, he would attack them.” Or Muslims 4, 745 “Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to attack the enemy when it was dawn. He would listen to the Adhan; so if he heard an Adhan, he stopped, otherwise made an attack. So Mohammad would attack people by surprise, to kill, plunder, rape and enslave, just because they weren’t Muslims. No wonder we find verses like this: Bukhari, 4, 52, verse 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)… What? I have been made victorious with terror. That may explain a few things.

    Yet somehow Muslims can’t seem to find anything bad, immoral or callous towards non-Muslims in Islam. That tells one a lot about their honesty and morality. Oh yes, morals and standards are for Non-Muslims. Muslims have silly rules and rituals instead of morals. A simple “thou shall not kill” might have helped in the case of the Somali teenager but, alas, not to be found in Allah’s word.

    Let me put this in real world terms, of human flesh and blood – and a woman.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8164979/The-Christian-woman-facing-death-over-a-work-squabble.html
    This has been in the news. Would you kindly tell me why there are Muslims in the street shouting for the death of a woman that don’t know? Blasphemy? Against a man? Or a man-god? Does it make those Muslims feel good? And why is it always Islam? Are you going to say it is just “a few” or they are not “real Muslims”. I guess, based upon your own texts, Mohammad wasn’t a “real Muslim” either because of his vile deeds. Right?

    MD, you say “I do not know which Hadith u are refering to. Plz note that we Muslims trust Quran and reliable hadith like Tirmidhi, Sahi Muslim, Sahi Bukhari, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood…”. Funny, those are the ones I quoted and you don’t seem to believe them. Just to humor you I will find time later to take all my references to Islamic texts in this post and give you links, one by one, to Islamic sites, of course. Enlightenment is only a click away!

    The fact is that Islam and the rest of the world have different standards and vocabulary. In Islam, morality is defined in terms of beliefs, not actions. Thus, the song I linked to above would be immoral and prohibited in Islamic nations. That is why there is no “Thou shalt not kill” in islam, because it depends on who is killing and being killed. If it is non-Muslim killing Muslims, it is immoral for Muslims, if it is Mohammad attacking and killing infidels it is “Praise be upon him”.

    The fact is that Muslims only have rules and rituals designed to demonstrate faith in Mohammad, Allah and Islam – but no true morality, that is for others. Yes, many things in Western culture today, even by my relaxed liberal views, but even so they are not as immoral as the Islamic ideology and practice.

  517. Oby,
    You do not need to explain your position further because I got your point and I said that I am sorry.

    Regarding Wikileaks, I will just clarify some points. There is an Arab public opinion that Iran is posing a threat to Arab world in Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, Palestine and Lebanon. This Arab public opinion does not come haphazardly but it comes from facts on the ground. Iran is supporting Shiea sectarian militants in Iraq, Lebanon and Yemen. Iran is supporting all these sectarian and rebels militants that kill civilians every single day. Saudi Arabia and the other GCC countries tried hard to contain Iran. King Abdullah invited Ahmedinjad to perform Haj and to stretch his hand to build a trust with his Arab neighbors. The GCC countries invited Ahmedinajad to attend one of the GCC summits. Iran did not take all these friendly gestures and they did not listen to their Arab neighbors. They went extreme and violent. Many Arabs leaders made it very clear that Iranian nuclear program must stop otherwise an action should be taken. It is not secret and it is expected. So I am not surprised that Arab leaders want to stop Iranian nuclear program. But the point that you are missing here is that America is the main player behind the scene. America is using Iran too to blackmail Arabs politically in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, and Yemen and to milk the Arab economical resources. America also pushed Saudi to offer oil to Chine and to buy the Russian S 300 Air defense system. You need to read more about this conflict and the American “tactic for money” in the region.

    Another interesting point you raised is that you have no problem to nuke any country that pose a threat to American national security if there is no other option. What about Osama bin laden? Maybe he is using your logic and he believes that there is no option to defend Afghanistan by any means but by terrorism. Your logic is very dangerous oby. and that is why I am saying that logic/rationalism is more dangerous than any religious dogma.

    @aafke,
    Calm down lady before you hurt yourself (:

    @Sara,
    yes I got it thanks.

  518. “They said she had told them that Jesus had been resurrected while the Prophet Muhammad had died-claims her supporters emphatically deny…”

    How in the HELL is that blasphemy? She is Christian…for her that is true that Jesus was resurrected…it is also true that Muhammad died…any Muslims will tell you that. That is utterly insane…

    For HER and her beliefs how did she balspheme? She didn’t. And the Islamic world wonders why non Muslims are looking at Islam with a questioning, worried eye…but again Jay to be fair…it is Islamic extremist ideology that has caused this judgement. 20 years ago it would have been a non issue.

  519. #Medina
    “America is using Iran too to blackmail Arabs politically in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, and Yemen and to milk the Arab economical resources”

    Do you really believe that the tensions between shia and sunny, arabs and persians will disappear if USA
    got out of the region.
    The tensions were already ripe long before anyone knew America existed.
    And USA place in arab economies is long gone, but somewhat a lot of muslims still thinks that we are in the sixties. The biggest oil company’s in the world are placed in Saudi,iran ,Quatar. I think Exxon is 17.
    Whats in USA’s ( and everyone else’s) interests is that the region is peaceful.
    Isn’t the main problem, that many of the sunny countries, apart from being authoritarian regimes, is split between different fractions, etnic and religious.
    As we have seen in Iraq it takes a lot of time ( and violence) to learn how to cooperate.

  520. Noch einmal
    # Md. Azad Ali Shah
    This world was destroyed by US since 1990′
    Why 1990 ?
    Or are you still counting the unmarried russian women.

  521. Ok. I have largely stayed out of this because I think pretty much everyone will disagree with most of what I think. However, I’ll just put it out there. I do want to avoid the kind of arguing I’ve seen on this thread, but the following is what I think.

    I think that the word “proof” is grossly misunderstood by many Muslims. I cringe when they assert that faith can be “proven”. And I cringe more about the “scientific proofs” in the Quran. It is a long explanation which I won’t give here- but I do believe the “scientific” verses are not in error. BUT they are not as specific as people think. As some early discoveries were made they were “interpreted” to back them up. The science was in error. But people cling to the interpretations, though it makes them look wrong. I do not, however, think they are “proof” of anything. I do not get this at all. And I don’t expect to convince anyone on either side of this divide. Only to explain where I stand.

    In my experience faith is not about “proof”. And believing there is proof when there is not leads to unpleasant places.

    I believe context DOES make a lot of difference in how one understands Muhammed and what is written in the Quran. I believe my understanding of that is different from just about everyone on this board- and so I don’t go there because there is no common ground for discussion. Personally I believe the abuse fo hadith has led to a lot of wrong thinking amoung everyone-especially Muslims.

    I think Allah is far kinder and more loving and more just than many Muslims give him credit for. All the time they say “al rahman al rahim” and then they portray him as vengeful and unforgiving. It don’t get it.

    If something I believe, is disproved by sound science, I will not persist in believing it. Clearly, I have misunderstood something. If there is a Creator, then he created natural and scientific laws and I will respect them.

    Education in the Islamic world is a critical problem. And the key to solving things.

    If the US and Israel dissapeared tomorrow, the Islamic world would still be in a mess, because they are not facing their own problems first. This does not mean I agree with US foreign policy or Israel. I do not.

    I think some Athiests, miss out on a lot of the beautiful intangibles by being soley interested in what is “provable”. There is so much that is not provable, but that does not mean it isn’t real.

    Finally, I think faith is about one’s relationship with their creator, not about controlling other people. And I believe that is a religiously sound way to view it.

    All right. Have at me 🙂 (ducks)

  522. Sandy, You should not stay out of discussions just because you think that people will disagree with you. That is very unfortunate that you should feel that way when your ideas/opinions/beliefs are just as valid as everyone else’s. What if there are a lot of other people out there with the same opinion as yours and they also are not speaking up for the same reasons as you?

  523. Thank you Lynn. It’s mostly a matter of I know I’ll get drawn into endless circular battering arguments, and I don’t have the time for it right now. Don’t worry. I have a healthy opinion of my opinions!

  524. Sandy, I’m glad you spoke up. Your views are very nice.

  525. @ Sandy,

    i’m more of a long time ‘lurker’ than a commenter but I would like to join Lynn and Susanne430 and say that I always look forward to your opinions and the way you view things. To me you are by far one of the most sensible people 🙂

    “Finally, I think faith is about one’s relationship with their creator, not about controlling other people. And I believe that is a religiously sound way to view it.”

    – I wish more people view it the way you do…

    thanks!

  526. ‘Don’t worry. I have a healthy opinion of my opinions’

    Glad to hear that! Ya worried me for a minute there. 😉

  527. Sandy…that was so beautifully said…thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

  528. Sandy rocks!

  529. @sandy,
    You expressed your “personal” faith well but you misunderstood some points related to Muslims.

    Muslims do not depend on any proofs whether scientific or not to believe in Islam. Scientific proofs in the Quran should be read in the same context of the other verses in the Quran. For example, Quran does not detail how a Muslim should pray. Quran does not detail how to make zakah or how to fast and which things can break fasting etc. science in the Quran should be read in the same context of all revelations in the Quran. Quran is guideline and there are scientific facts clearly mentioned and referenced in the Quran. You as a Muslim, you should take these scientific un-detailed facts as something you can enjoy and strengthen your Iman in God. The beauty of the Quran is existed in its challenge to human beings. Quran challenges you to disprove it. Quran says at the first verse of the second chapter of the Quran that there is doubt or mistake in Quran. That is why Muslims like these scientific facts in the Quran because it is challenging the human intelligence. All Muslims agree that with you when you say “I do believe the “scientific” verses are not in error. BUT they are not as specific as people think.” It is not specific or detailed because the Quran is guideline. And I wish that you define the proof because you may have your own definition of the word “proof”.

    Regarding America and Israel, how many Muslims will be alive now in Iraq and Palestine if there is no America no Israel?! You undermined the tears and the pains of Iraqi and Palestinian orphans. This is really shame but you are also not different than oby who depends on logic/rationalism which makes you have the potential to agree to nuke any country or kill any people just because you think you have no other option to defend yourself.

  530. correction,
    This sentence should be read this way,

    “Quran says at the first verse of the second chapter of the Quran that there is NO doubt or mistake in Quran.”

  531. @niles,
    yes I believe that there will be no sectarian tensions between shiea and sunni in Iraq if America did not invade Iraq and Iran did not intefer in Iraq. Iraqis live in harmony shiea and sunniah with each other for centuries.

  532. @sandy,

    Great comment.

    I have some clarifications on this:

    “I think some Athiests, miss out on a lot of the beautiful intangibles by being soley interested in what is “provable”. There is so much that is not provable, but that does not mean it isn’t real.”

    Actually, we know there are many things that are unprovable. Actually that makes them of great interest. We just do not assign an answer to them, like there must be a creator behind unproven things. The greatest discoveries of science are done exactly because of the sense of wonderment about the unknown. That drives many to question, to research, to discover, etc. It is the opposite, things that are not provable are of great interest.

  533. Medina has been going on about logic and rationalism vs dogma. This is a philosophical argument that is way above his head.

    The argument is false at its root. For a person to make any argument say “Logic and Rationalism are more dangerous than religious dogma”, he will have to apply some logic to even develop that statement. Without logic and rational you cannot even make a choice between 2 things. Isn’t that what medina did by making that statement, he applied some logic and rational (badly I may add) to make a choice.

    Medina, your arguments always remind me of the blind squirrel who found a turd and thinks it is an acorn. You have been holding on to this turd for a few days now, it is time for you to take a deep breath and understand what you got.

  534. @Medina

    “Quran says at the first verse of the second chapter of the Quran that there is NO doubt or mistake in Quran.”

    That’s not proof, that’s a claim. To a rational person, that is. It’s not a challenge to disprove Quran; operating from a default position, Quran must be challenged to prove its claims, not the other way round. Default is disbelief, any claim must produce proof. That would be like me saying, “page 2 of my diary says that I’m the most beautiful and intelligent woman in the world.” That’s not proof, that’s a claim.

    You had me laughing my bum off with your vision of Iraqi harmony. Dearie, Shia and Sunni have been going at each other’s throats before there was such a thing as America. Who brought about Karbala? Evil Joos? Evil Americans? To people who entertain these utopian fantasies, I say this: how many of your first caliphs die a natural death? Get real. The history of Middle East and Islamic civilizations is a history of wars and conflicts from day one, and they did not need any outside help to get on with it. That doesn’t make them evil or vicious, that just makes them human and very unspecial.

  535. @Medina

    As an afterthought, perhaps you want to tell us how welcome, comfortable and respected the Shia minority is in Saudi Arabia. How many Shias are generals, judges, diplomats, ministers, and all that good stuff. Is America responsible for that as well?

  536. MoQ

    That is one thing that has always bothered me about Abrahamic religions is that it tries to answer the mysteries of life i.e. where we come from etc but if that answer is found wanting then it’s the fault of the person not the religion. In science or logic if the answer is in error then you discard what is incorrect and try to find the correct answer. To me it’s better that people keep searching instead of accepting whatever answer because someone told you to. One thing I’ve noticed is dogmatic religions tend not to like people asking “why”.

    @Medina

    Because someone can rationalize or come to a logical conclusion as to why atomic bombs were used in Japan does not mean that they like it. I understand the history and the CONTEXT of why it was done. I still don’t like that it happened. The US does a lot of bad things in the world but it also does good things. As much as people like to bad-mouth the US for its faults the US is the first place people look towards for help as well. Go figure.

  537. @OniqiriFB,

    I agree. I have always wondered why people give such high value to faith. I mean seriously, no rational person will invest $1000 in a company, unless they were given information that that justifies the investment. This is usually in the form of data that can be analyzed and a rational for the the investment is developed. However, people are willing to base a much larger investment, their entire life, on faith. I guess that is where Medina’s idea that logic and rationalism are bad comes from.

    Regarding the scientific proofs in the Quran, Medina is also right on that one. The Quran scientific justification is based on lack of clarity. Things in the Quran like “then God turned to the heaven and it was smoke”. That turns into Smoke=stardust. Poof, we just proved that the Quran talked about the Big Bang 1400 years ago.

    Never mind that the Quran in its mythical creation story had a simple thing like the order of how things happened wrong. In the Quran God created the earth, then the stars in the heavens.

    Seriously, if you are ever looking for some entertainment, pick up a book or an article about the scientific proofs in the Quran (some evangelical Christians also have similar books for the bible). You will be guaranteed hours of laughter.

  538. The immoral ME – today is the official holiday to mark Woman’s Day in Bahrain – yes a day for the “oppressed” woman.

    The 4th New Arab Woman Forum is going on in Beirut – Lebanon. Yes empowering the “oppressed” woman.

    I don’t remember if I read about an official holday to mark free Western Woman’s day or even a meeting for moral western women. Maybe there was ….

  539. @Medina,
    If Muslims do not rely on scientific “proof” from the Quran (and I agree they shouldn’t) then it makes no sense to present “proof” to non Muslims. That’s all I’m saying and it happens all the time.

    To claim I “undermined” the tears of Iraqi and Palestinian orphans is a big claim that isn’t true. I was not addressing that issue at all.

    You definately need to learn more about Iraqi history to make the claims you do. I do think the US led invasion was wrong and cost many lives unjustly- but Iraq had a long bloody history of sectarian violence as does much of the Muslims world, who kill each other far more than outsiders kill them.

  540. @Sarah,
    You need to read more. I didn’t know it was a competition but in the US alone:

    National Womens History Month
    Womens Equality Day
    Woman’s National Health and Fitness Day
    National Womens and Girls HIV/Aids awareness Day
    Girls and Women’s Sports days

    Conferences on womens issues ALL the time as well and in many other countries as well.

    And part of why the west has them is because women ARE oppressed. Even there to some degree. So I am glad that Arabs are finally going to addres all the opression that is handed out to women. Maybe now something can be done about it. Because you are right. It is immoral.

  541. @MoQ,
    That’s why I said “some atheists”. I know not all are that way. I’d also add to what I said, because I believe there is a creator, in my mind in no way takes away from the beauty of discovery.

  542. Sandy
    Thanks, I was sure there were but I don’t remember reading about them, thats why I asked. Maybe they don’t publicize these much.

  543. I always tell people that ”I am always right”.
    And for some weird reason people still think they should discuss with me when I make a claim. As I have stated that I am always right, it naturally follows that every claim I make is always true. No discussion needed, just accept.
    I’ve said so from the start.
    Why doesn’t it work?

  544. @MoQ

    If those books are anything like the one Mormons put out as apologist’s material then I’m sure it will be amusing. My friend the evangelical Christian and I get into debates on evolution occasionally and he brings up the “proof” a lot too. I can never get him to understand though no matter how many different proofs I provide. The bible trumps all. it bothers me because I KNOW that my friend is not stupid. His IQ is quite high to the point where he was offered a free ride to Harvard. He’s taken all the general science, physics, biology classes etc that we all have to take and still… *sigh* It just boggles the mind.

    Oh I was wondering since I read on another blog about education in Saudi and the person’s desire to put her child in an international school. Are the regular schools really that bad? I know that they seem to favor the rote memorization style of teaching but so does Japan. Japanese students tend to not have critical thinking skills and part of that is culture but the main reason is the rote memorization method used in its schools. Just curious since the debate styles of some people here would have gotten failed by my high school debate teacher.

    @Sandy

    Also the UN has a whole section devoted to women’s issues. What did you think about SA being on the board for that? I couldn’t help but think it was a joke and the Saudi King must have been throwing A LOT of money around to get that one.

  545. @NN,
    Every country has a history of civil war but that is history. When America invaded Iraq, America and Iran invested in this sectarian history in Iraq to divide Iraqi people. There are many religions in America and many races but now they live in harmony, do not they? if any country invades America, they will invest in these racial, religious differences of American people. divide and rule.

    I will convey to you the questions that people ask in every country in this world. Why America is involved in every conflict that occurs on earth and space? Why is your country very nosy and putting their nose in every jug on this earth and snuffing it? Why do not you stick where you are and leave other people alone? Why are you a big mouth country? Why you think that you have the right to NUKE any country that could pose a threat to America in the future just to defend your faith, American national security? These questions have been raised by people in every country around this world. You should find answers for these questions by yourself.

    @Sandy,
    “If Muslims do not rely on scientific “proof” from the Quran (and I agree they shouldn’t) then it makes no sense to present “proof” to non Muslims.”

    Because non Muslims want to see proofs that Mohammad is a messenger of God. Quran gives them these proofs. but Muslims do not need these proofs because they are already Muslims and they believe in the revelations.

    @OniqiriFB,
    “Because someone can rationalize or come to a logical conclusion as to why atomic bombs were used in Japan does not mean that they like it.”

    Osama Bin Laden stated also very clear that he does not like terrorism but he has no other option to deter America. So, both parties reached to the same conclusion which is to destroy the enemy by any means based on logic. You agree with using nuclear weapons to defend America and Osama bin laden goes for terrorism to defend his imaginative world. So no difference is noted between both parties. both parties are terrorists and thugs at the end.

  546. @OniqiriFB
    I would also like to add another point. Osama bin laden is using religion to recruit people to join his “logic” . This means he is using religion ONLY to make an army of kamikazes or suicide bombers whatever. On the other hand, America does not need religion to recruit soldiers because America already has an army. So, religion is a victim in this matter and logic is more dangerous than any religious dogma. I hope you get my point.

  547. @OnigiriFB,

    The education system in Saudi is terrible. Most parents that can afford to put their kids in private schools, take that option. The private schools are somewhat better, but only in teaching methods. They still have to use the same curriculum provided by the ministry of education. The curriculum is very problematic as it does not provide diverse knowledge:

    – There are too many religious topics, taking a good number of hours a week at the expense of other topics. And also closing the minds so people only see things from a religious perspective.
    – History is only based on Islamic history. Here they are taught about the great Islamic conquests and the superiority of the Islamic nations. If others are mentioned it is always in the context of how Muslims were facing these backwards people and saved them from their darkness. There is no teachings of any old civilizations like the Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, etc. Modern Western history is completely avoided. The Renaissance and Enlightenment are not known by most. Arabic pre-Islamic history is mentioned vaguely, only to paint the people as barbaric and uncivilized. So there is really no recognition that the world had knowledge before the prophet. He came into a world void of any wisdom and set about to save it.
    – Philosophy is not taught. So topics like logic are complete unknowns. When you see the Saudi’s here commit fallacies by the hundreds, you now at the root of that is an education system that failed to give them basic reasoning skills.
    – Important scientific theories are either ignored or are discouraged. I actually know a person with a college degree in Biology who was not taught the Unifying theory of biology (Evolution). The only times her professors mentioned it, is when they were trying to disprove it.
    – Etc.

    Saudi people are like everyone else in the world, they have many intelligent people. The problem they have is their government is not allowing them to be educated properly. The result is extreme focus on religion and lack of knowledge in many fields. You see that demonstrated to its full effect in comments here.

    I am not sure if you saw this video. But it is a good example of how proofs of the miracles in Islam are developed and sold to the masses. The problem is the average person does not have the proper education to laugh at this guy. Notice the constant vague references to Western scientists knowing all this information (does that remind you of Medina’s arguments). At some level it is funny, but it is actually very sad that entire nations cannot progress because of this lack of understanding of science.

  548. @Aafke: ‘I always tell people that ”I am always right”.
    And for some weird reason people still think they should discuss with me when I make a claim. As I have stated that I am always right, it naturally follows that every claim I make is always true. No discussion needed, just accept.
    I’ve said so from the start.
    Why doesn’t it work?’

    My SOUL sister!!! LMAO

    It does work with brainwashing. It took nearly 20 years of making my husband repeat after me ‘You’re always right, Lynn’ but I think he has finally gotten it! I even hear him advising others to believe it as well. 🙂

  549. @Medina

    So your argument is basically “yes, yes, there have been some conflicts in the past, but it was thousands of years ago. Whatever issues Iraq has now, YOU people are to blame.”

    Let me get this straight – you think that under Saddam’s rules Shia and Sunnis in Iraq lived happily, shared the country and cuddled kittens together on Friday nights? Get real. And then, get realer.

    Regarding your questions on America, first, I’m not American, so find someone else. Secondly, “your guy is as bad as my guy” is not an argument of anything. America being bad does not make Middle East better in anything.

    Finally, I read the Quran back and forth, and saw no proofs. Only claims. And that’s fine. Religion is belief in what cannot be proven. If religion relied on proofs and facts, they’d call it science.

  550. MoQ, I was thinking the same thing, how sad it is. Just imagine how difficult would be for a person who had been raised to think that they are superior to all to discover that perhaps they have been mislead.

  551. Lynn, I was going to say ”Thank your for that tip”
    But now I come to think about it, I realize that that’s exactly what my dream rabbit is trying to get me to say…
    So, Thank you for the warning!

  552. You are welcome Aafke! 😉

  553. Not sure if the guy in the thobe in the video is trying to keep from laughing or not. He seems on the verge of it for most of the video.

    According to the “specialist” people live longer and are more healthier in Mecca due to the stone….so whats up with the blood diseases Saudis…and Arabs in general…seem to be afflicted with?

    And if the Kaba was as magical as he says and the rocks surrounding it were “not from this galaxy” and infinite radiation was emitted from it etc etc….you would think this would garner a little more interest than just to talk about how wonderful that all is. And I mean interest from the rest of the world that is ALWAYS trying to discover the “whys” of things. So here we have “proof” that mecca and the kaba are magical and from god…that Islam is from god based on at least those two criteria..yet I dont see much interest in that. Ive never ever heard of his claims until watching this video about radiation and healthy people etc. hmmmm.

  554. @NN,
    First of all, you are missing the point of the discussion. Osama bin laden does not represent the MD or Muslims. Osama bin laden, who uses the “logic” that you are using in America to defend America, does not follow the Islamic faith. He uses the logic, so he goes for terrorism “logically” not religiously. There are around 350 million people in the Arab world and around one billion people in the MD. Muslims who joined AL Qaidah do not represent .01% of Muslims in the MD. So, you are missing the main point when you say that the argument is basically yes to yes and you are not objective at all in your argument.

    Second, you have no idea about Iraq and you mix Iraqi politics with the harmony between Iraqi people. This is a free information for you. baath party, Sadam regime was dominated by shiea not sunna. Sheia and sunna Iraqis fought Iran side by side and this is for record.

    Third, it is irony to say you are not American while you are defending America foreign policy in the MD but this implies that you do not have the courage to admit your preferable party’s mistakes. You are saying that we are the one who should be blamed. I think you live thousands of miles away from us, why you bother yourself whether we have problems or not? The one who should be blamed is the one who kill people for OIL and have the potential to use nuclear weapons against people.

    Finally, you are saying you read Quran and there are no proofs. I will recommend that you read more because it is there.

    @Lynn,
    If you can not find proofs and you reject our faith. We have also a chapter in the Quran speaks about people like you. Here it is

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
    2. I worship not that which ye worship,
    3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
    5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    6. To you be your Way, and to me mine

    This is our faith. We do not force you to believe us even though you read and watched the proofs that you want but you intentionally and emotionally reject it. We are democratic before you even know what democracy is. So, I advice you to feel sad for yourself because you are mislead and i recommend that you watch this video too and videos in the list there

  555. Actually the Saudi educational system has finally made some very real changes. The required currriculem is greatly reduced and private schools are bringing in their own.

    Several private schools have English as the primary language of instruction and are becoming CITA certified and follow American curriculem;

    It will be awhile before it is all up to speed but just a few years ago it would have been unthinkable. This is one reason I like King Abdullah. He can only push gov’t education so far but he freed private education at least. Not only that, Saudis used to need special government permission to send their students to an international school. Now, as long as the school accepts them they are allowed to attend.

    In terms of gov curriculum, the many religious topics have been greatly reduced and condensed. they used to have many topics. Quran,, Hadith, Fiq, Tawheed, and several more. Now I think there is only Quran and religious studies. The main problem is a lack of qualified teachers. And unqualified teacher can ruin even the best curriculem. And of course the lack of progress in public schools. But with the allowing of alternate curriculem there are more, and more affordable private schools.

    @Onigiri,
    I don’t know enough about it. It is certainly ironic. I know I would be interested to know their motivation in wanting to be a part of it.

    @Medina,
    And that is the problem. There is no “proof” Mohammed was a prophet. So you can’t give any. And when you try to it only makes Islam look silly. There are claims and there is some evidence. Share that and let people draw their own conclusions. It will be much more successful.

  556. @Medina: I have told you before that I have read the Quran so why would what you have quoted be a surprise to me?

    ‘To you be your Way, and to me mine’

    So can you explain why other religions are banned from public in Saudi Arabia and discriminated against in other Muslim countries?

    ‘We are democratic before you even know what democracy is.’

    Could you please share what you believe is the definition of ‘democracy’ and ‘proof’?

    But first, you keep giving us quotes and videos to try to prove something but you don’t look at ours?

    Would you like to change or clarify what you said about Mohammed not having traveled outside of his own country (‘except for 2 times with Khadija’) and not being a merchant? The link and quote I gave was from an Islamic site so I think it should be valid for you. What do you say?

  557. ‘Many Iraqis I know, are still bewildered by the fact that the Outside world, all of it, still does not believe them when they tell people that these sectarian ethnic divides were foreign to us before 2003. I still don’t understand why the outside world refuses to believe that fact. We can’t all be lying about our own country’

    excerpt from:

    http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2010/11/iraq-war-logs-reflections3.html

    interesting angle!

  558. Medina, I like your analysis of history and it is nice to talk about something else than religion, dogma, you say this, I say that.

    The Persian – Arab split has long fascinated me. Any analysis of the relations between Iran and the Arabs to the West will have to start 1500 years ago and it hasn’t gotten any easier since then. I have always contented that the real target of the Iranian atomic program is not Israel, but the Saudis. The Persians and Shias have not forgotten Karbala. I guess the Saudis agree with this.

    I think MoQ pretty much got it right about the deficiencies of history as taught in Islamic countries, particularly MENA. On the other hand, most people in the West, particularly America, are very ignorant of history, even their own, much less of others. As to the bombing of Japan in WW2, my Dad said it was OK as far as he was concerned because he had just been transferred from B-24s in Europe to B-29s and was on way to Japan when war ended. Personally I think they should have done a demo on a desert island but that is hindsight.

    Sandy, there is nothing to ‘have at you’ because you have it all. You know I have problems with Islam, but a good part of that is because Muslims will quote the Quran and ahadith to me as if I didn’t know it or (worse) as if there weren’t other verses that say the opposite of what they are telling me (like people writing ‘To you be your way, and to me mine… We do not force you to believe’ – as if there were no verses urging Muslims to fight until non-believers submit). That drives me mad!

    Sandy, You are OK.

    Oh yes, by the way, it is Polish + Brazilian + Arizona + 37 species of cacti in my yard, of which only the cholla scares me. It is mean!

    Coolred. You sure have changed in the last few years. What happened to Ms Meek?

    This whole issue of religion-based scientific miracles is a joke (I still remember a Sunday school teacher saying that science says there were 10 minutes of daylight missing, probably because of Joshua holding the sun still so he could finish the battle). The Quran is no better – and no, the sun does not set in a muddy field.

    Carol, I hope you have noticed that in the last day the discussion has taken a turn for the better. We have all become much nicer, more respectful – thanks to you and your spiritual oversight and happy thoughts, doubtless.

  559. Medina, You’re quoting from Sura al kuffaroon.
    Nice.
    Unfortunately it is an early sura, from when Mohammed lived in Mecca, had no power, and few followers, and had to play nice. It is replaced by later, better, more aggressive and improved suras.

    ”Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush” (Sura 9.5)

    “O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.” (Sura 5.51)

    “And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone (in the whole world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah) then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” (Sura 8.39).

    “It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land.” (Sura 8.67).

    “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” (Sura 9.73)

    “O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness, and know that Allah is with the godfearing.” (Sura 9.123)

    “When We resolve to raze a city, We first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort. If they persist in sin, judgement is irrevocably passed, and We destroy it utterly.” (Sura 17.16)

    “We have destroyed many a sinful nation and replaced them by other men. And when they felt Our Might they took to their heels and fled. They were told: ‘Do not run away. Return to your comforts and to your dwellings. You shall be questioned all.’ ‘Woe betide us, we have done wrong’ was their reply. And this they kept repeating until We mowed them down and put out their light.” (Sura 21.11-15)

    “Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Sura 48.29)

    “May the hands of Abu Lahab [Mohammed’s uncle, who had refused to embrace Islam] perish! Nothing shall his wealth and gains avail him. He shall be burnt in a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with firewood, shall have a rope of fiber around her neck!” (Sura 111.1-5)

    I really want to know Medina, are you trying to fool us? I mean, the quran is there to be read by anybody. Some of us have read it. You can’t tell me stuff because I know as well as you what’s in the quran.

    Or don’t you know? Do you really not know your own religion and we, kuffar, have to explain it to you?

  560. Medina…

    It has been a busy 24 hours and I couldn’t get back till now.

    I appreciate you understanding my position with Kitty…thanks.

    Briefly: I don’t think it is OK to nuke people…in a perfect world none of it would be necessary and everyone could negotiate in a perfect up front way and all could gladly give a little to get some…but this is reality and it doesn’t work like that.

    I TOTALLY agree with you about America looking in every jug and sniffing…I wish we would stay in our own backyard just a little more. That would include no military help to anyone other than our friends,no more backdoor arms sales etc., I would love to take back the billions and billions we give in aid and use it in our own country ’cause we got too many mouths to feed here to be worrying about everyone else’s house. More than that I would love to sit back and watch all these Middle Eastern countries that are so upset with us, straighten out their messy and completely corrupt societies without any financial help from the USA or the West…no more visas to the west either because that is running from the problem…everyone would have to stay and fix their own mess. And you know what? I don’t think it would make a bit of difference. See then when the problems continued the USA couldn’t be blamed for every little thing that happened…The problem would still exist,but I tell you I would LOVE it if my estimation is wrong and without our corrupting influences the MENA world totally got it together… because i would like everyone to have a great standard of living…it brings me no joy or sense of superiority that many places in the world struggle in poverty.

    I also don’t believe if USA disappeared tomorrow that things would change…there would be no one to focus all the ills of the world on and I guarantee you some other country would then be the reason the M.E. is in such a mess cause it couldn’t be possible that they contribute to their own problems now could it?

    I am glad that the MENA countries tried to use diplomacy to get Iran to drop it’s nuclear ambitions. That is great and negotiation and discussion is always the way it should be if it is at all possible. The USA continues that tactic obviously being as unsuccessful as the MENA was…

    So here is my question:

    if it is wrong to bomb people to solve the problem or go to war with them as you say, why are you not condemning the MENA countries that have been urging the USA to do the job for them? And why are you kicking the USA who showed restraint and didn’t bomb them? It seems to me that if bombing is wrong and the cables showed quite clearly that the ME leaders wanted the USA to do exactly that then the Middle East is just as bad as the USA in matters of war. AND in this case anyway, the ME might actually be worse because they are the ones instigating it. Why have you no criticism for them?

    Secondly, Why doesn’t the MENA countries do something about it themselves instead of urging the USA to do it?

    Thirdly, IF Iran were to attack KSA and blow a big hole in her somewhere with their nuclear weapons, how do you think KSA should respond to that? AND should the USA come to the aid of the Saudis?

  561. @Jay
    I swear I was going to guess Polish! Now Polish+Brazilian, THAT is a unique combination, especially from your generation 😉

  562. @Lynn,
    Your claim that the prophet Mohammad did not come up with something new but ancient knowledge is not something new. The Quran itself spoke about such claim in many verses.

    4. Those who disbelieve say: “This (the Qur’an) is nothing but a lie that he (Muhammad ) has invented, and others have helped him at it, so that they have produced an unjust wrong (thing) and a lie.”

    5. And they say: “Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon.”

    6. Say: “It (this Qur’an) has been sent down by Him (Allah) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

    7. And they say: “Why does this Messenger (Muhammad ) eat food, and walk about in the markets (like ourselves). Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him?

    30. And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad ) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was planning, and Allah is the Best of the planners.

    31. And when Our Verses (of the Qur’an) are recited to them, they say: “We have heard this (the Qur’an); if we wish we can say the like of this. This is nothing but the tales of the ancients.”

    32. And (remember) when they said: “O Allah! If this (the Qur’an) is indeed the truth (revealed) from You, then rain down stones on us from the sky or bring on us a painful torment.”

    33. And Allah would not punish them while you (Muhammad ) are amongst them, nor will He punish them while they seek (Allah’s) Forgiveness.

    Saudi is not the best model of Islam and other faiths are respected in Saudi and in Muslims countries but Islam is discriminated in the west and we know how many Muslim girls are oppressed and have been sacked from their schools just because they wear Hijab in France and some other countries. Human rights organisations also criticise the hostile atmosphere against Muslims in the west. And there are many incidences that happened to Muslims in the western countries such as verbal abuses, physical abuses, burning mosques, all have been reported.

    Last point, I do not really have time to educate you about islam but I think I provided you with the resources and the proofs in the Quran that have been acknowledged by prominent scientists in famous American universities. I am not here to convert you or to convince you, I express my opinions ONLY based on my understanding of these points raised for discussion And I think I stated my opinion very well. so, I advice you to search by yourself about the proofs in the Quran. you only need to use google and youtube.

    @sandy,
    If you do not see there is a proof that Mohammad is a prophet this is up to you. You have all the proofs but you deny them and this is something not new. At the same time, this means you are not a Muslim and this also explain why you want a change in the Saudi culture and the Saudi system. Do you think that you have the right to ask for such a change in Saudi? I do not think so because the one who has the right to make a change is the Saudi people ONLY. so I expect that you will respect saudi people’s choice.

    @jay,
    Your notes have been considered except the your note about the scientific proofs in the Quran. Quran is not the Bible even though they speak about similar themes. I recommend that you educate yourself about the Quran especially about these scientific facts. It is not like the one you mentioned in the Bible. I am sure you realize what I am refering to.

  563. I’ll repeat : @Medina: Perhaps YOU are the one that should read the biography of Mohammed. Perhaps you would also appreciate a class about Pre-Islamic History of Arabia.

    http://imamshirazi.com/prophet-biography.html#_Toc93317152

    ‘As a youngster Muhammad used to accompany his uncle on his business trips to Syria . When the Messenger of Allah reached the age of twelve he journeyed with his uncle Abu Talib as far as Busra. There he was seen by a Christian monk named Georges who recognised him by his description. He took his hand and said: ‘This is the chief of the Worlds, God will send him as a mercy to the Worlds.’ Abu Talib said: ‘How do you know this?’ He said: ‘We find mention of him in our books.’ He asked Abu Talib to take him back fearing for his safety.
    As an adult, Muhammad worked as a trader between the cities of Mecca and Damascus , and earned a great reputation in the process. Having heard of the reputation of Muhammad, Lady Khadijah, one of the noblest of the Quraysh, on one occasion commissioned him to take charge of some of her trading business between the two cities’

    Do you accept this information that is from an Islamic site or are you sticking with your beliefs that Mohammed never left his own country?

  564. I am a Muslim. You are not the judge of that Medina. Who are you to slander me?

    Sorry, as a MOTHER of Saudi children I have a duty to this society. Also, as someone who listens to, sees, and knows opressed Saudi’s I have an obligation not to lie and pretend everything is fine and to speak the truth even if I cannot change it.

    Besides my own observation it is SAUDI people who tell me about how oppressed they are. It seems this oppressive patriarchal, tribal society is NOT the choice of MANY Saudi people. Sorry, ISLAMIC values of justice are more important than your SAUDI pride.

    I don’t give a rats ass if you think I am Muslim or not. It is not your place to judge that- but that is between you and Allah- maybe you think he’s asked your special help in passing judgement on people.

    And I don’t give a rat’s ass if you think it is my right to influence change in Saudi. Because I’m going to do it anyway to the best of my ability.

  565. @aafk, You take these verses out from their original context and you post them here, very objective argument!!!!

    ”Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush” (Sura 9.5)

    This verse is revealed to the prophet Mohmmad at time of war. Allah revealed to the prophet Mohammad how to deal with Meccans who are hunting Muslims in valleys and wherever they find Muslims. This verse is to give green light to Muslims to defend themselves and kill the enemy wherever they find these snipers, hunters, militants.

    “O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. Allah guides not the people of the evildoers.” (Sura 5.51)

    This verse also revealed to the prophet Mohammad after Jews broke their promise that they gave to Prophet Mohammad for not betraying Muslims in Medina. Jews united with Meccans and they were spying on Muslims. This verse revealed to the prophet Mohammad to warn Muslims from Jews and Christians at that time because Muslims were watched by these Jews and Christians. So it is to say to Muslims not to be friend with them now because there is lack of trust and because they have been caught spying on Muslims.

    “And fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah alone (in the whole world). But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah) then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” (Sura 8.39).

    This verse also revealed to the prophet Mohammad to ask him to launch war against Meccans. It is to say it is time now to fight Meccans and recapture Mecca.

    “It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land.” (Sura 8.67).

    This verse is to tell the prophet Mohammad not to feel sad because you want to launch war against your people in Mecca. Allah is telling the prophet Mohammad that previous prophets also launched war, so it is not only you Mohammad who will fight his people who expelled him from Mecca.

    “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” (Sura 9.73)
    This is also about Meccans and hypocrites in Medina.

    “O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness, and know that Allah is with the godfearing.” (Sura 9.123)

    This is also a verse about Meccans.

    “When We resolve to raze a city, We first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort. If they persist in sin, judgement is irrevocably passed, and We destroy it utterly.” (Sura 17.16)

    This is also al warning to prophet Mohmmad to show him that Allah is against luxury that does injustice to people.

    “We have destroyed many a sinful nation and replaced them by other men. And when they felt Our Might they took to their heels and fled. They were told: ‘Do not run away. Return to your comforts and to your dwellings. You shall be questioned all.’ ‘Woe betide us, we have done wrong’ was their reply. And this they kept repeating until We mowed them down and put out their light.” (Sura 21.11-15)

    This is an ancient tale Allah reveled it to the prophet Mohammad. It comes in terms of narration of ancient tales that happened to people in the past. This is also in the Bible, you can find such tales.
    “Mohammed is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” (Sura 48.29)

    This describes the companions of the prophet Mohammad. This verse revealed to the prophet Mohammad to tell him that his companions are united and they are not friendly with Meccans.

    “May the hands of Abu Lahab [Mohammed’s uncle, who had refused to embrace Islam] perish! Nothing shall his wealth and gains avail him. He shall be burnt in a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with firewood, shall have a rope of fiber around her neck!” (Sura 111.1-5

    Read about Abu Lahab and his wife and their crimes against Muslims in Mecca and how much did they abused the prophet Mohammad.

  566. @Lynn,
    What you are saying does not disprove the prophecy of the prophet Mohammad

    @sandy,
    It is not me who judge you, it is your words that judge you, I quote your words

    “And that is the problem. There is no “proof” Mohammed was a prophet. So you can’t give any.” (sandy)

    To become a Muslim, YOU MUST believe and say the following shahada. There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah. Your words above negate the Shahadah (witness) so based on that you are not a Muslim because you believe that Mohammed is not a prophet and there is no proof that he is a prophet. Here, you are not a Muslim according to all Islamic schools of faith. If you think you are a Muslim, you are wrong if you believe that Mohammad is not a prophet. Just to correct you but I am not judging you. It is up to you.

    But still you have no right to change anything inside Saudi or to ask for any change because you are not Saudi whether you give your rat or not.

    oby,
    I will be back to you later

  567. @Medina – I am not trying to’disprove the prophecy of Mohammed’ I am trying to get you to admit that you were wrong when you made this statement.

    ‘Why it is miracle? It is because the prophet Mohmmad is a simple person who does not join any school, he does not even read or writes and he has never been to any other country but the Quran stats scientific facts discovered and proved recently by modern sciences, which proves that the Quran is not a man made but a revelation from God. So I really advice you not to join denial people in here.’

  568. @Medina

    I really think you need to look up the definition of proof and beliefs. They way you are using the words make me wonder if your definition isn’t the standard definition of the words. Because people make a statement that they BELIEVE the Quran has scientific “facts” does not mean that is proof of anything. I can claim that my religion teaches x about y and other people believe that too does not make it a “proof”.

    As to the nukes on Japan you do realize that the US was at war with Japan during that time don’t you? A war that the US did NOT want to participate in but was forced into when Japan bombed Hawaii. I believe even your dogmatic religion says it’s ok to defend itself against aggression. I wish there had been a different outcome but I wasn’t even born as of yet so do not know what drove the president at the time to give the ok. Have you heard the phrase “hindsight is always 20/20”?

    As to Bin Laden are you saying what he did was ethical? Keep in mind 9/11 was prior to the Iraqi and Afganistan wars. What reason did he have? Do you agree with what he did? Why?

  569. @ Medina.
    You are really an idiot. OF COURSE I believe Mohammed is a prophet. And you have NO idea what the word “proof” means, or probably what “faith” means or “belief”. And I suggest you go find out before you start bearing false witness against people you don’t even know.

    And just so you know EVERYONE has the right to speak up for oppressed people in ANY country. Show me where in the Quran it says people should not say anything if someone is being oppressed in another country. You can’t because it isn’t there.

    And one more thing- even if it isn’t the right of people to speak up against injustice people are going to do it anyway. So you are going to have to learn to live with it. Now that the world learns more and more how oppressive your country is- more and more people are going to be trying to change things. And no matter how much you try to deny the truth of things, EVERYONE knows if they look into it how bad it is. And you just look like a bigger idiot when you talk about having to keep your birds (women) in their cages.

  570. @Lynn,
    You want me to admit that I am wrong when I said that the prophet Mohammad did not travel more than 2 times to land of sham. I reviewed some papers I have here and I found that he made some trips to sham. So, I admit that I am wrong in this regard but the prophet Mohammad did not engage with people who can educate him or anything related to education He was working for Khadija business. Are you happy now? I do not know how this can prove your point?

    @FB,
    You own me a apology for asking me this question.

    “As to Bin Laden are you saying what he did was ethical? Keep in mind 9/11 was prior to the Iraqi and Afghanistan wars. What reason did he have? Do you agree with what he did? Why?”

    it seems that you have no idea about me. you can ask oby this question.

  571. @sandy,
    Iol calm down lady, you have kids.

    But you did not clarify your point. You are saying that there is no proof that Mohammad is a prophet. How do you believe that Mohammad is a prophet while there is no proof about his prophecy?! humm Consider me big idiot but I want to understand this point (:

  572. Much as it pains me- especially at this moment. In fairness I have to say Medina did a pretty good job adding context to the versus that Aafke posted.

    I do understand, however, that we don’t have much credibility with that as long as other Muslims are using those same verses to go out and kill people.

  573. Medinia…if those ayats Aafke posted are taken out of context…and then you put them into context for the benefit of anyone that might now know…my question is this…

    Why would god see fit to put an ayat in the Quran that required the context to be known in the first place? Not everyone who has ever or will ever read the Quran will know or would of had access to the historical events that created that context you speak of. For many people, they open it up and read it and what you see is what you get.

    Second question…if those instances of events which were specific to the prophet were only meant for him, such as “slay the idolaters” or “dont take christians and jews for friends” etc….why didnt god just tell mohammed that, man to man so to speak…why did it have to be included in the Quran so that years (centuries) later, muslims and nonmuslims could argue and fight over what those ayats REALLY mean and that context is required to understand them?

    It would seem that events that occured that were specific to mohammed and his time could have been left for hadith to narrate, and not for the Quran to set in stone for all places and all time.

    Your thoughts?

  574. Medina…how do you have belief that there is God if there is no proof? I think its called Faith.

    The only “proof” that mohammed was a prophet is in the quran…but as she said…thats more a claim…not proof. Where is the proof.