Saudi Arabia: Why Too Many Marriages End in Divorce

 

A recent article in Arab News about the rise of divorce in the Kingdom had me reflect on the struggles of both divorced and single Saudi women in the Kingdom.  Not only are divorces on the rise among Saudi couples but more and more Saudi women remain single having never married.  Is there a correlation in these facts?  Based on what I saw while living in the Kingdom I believe there is.

Most marriages between Saudis remain arranged.  Generally it is not the man who arranges the marriage of the children but rather the mother, Grandmother and Aunts.  Traditional Saudi families usually are more insular in that the circle of friends is typically extended family; hence this is the pool from which marriages are arranged.  Weddings are not only a celebration for a newly married couple but for the single women of marriageable age to be seen in their finest.  Much matchmaking among mothers and grandmothers actually takes place at weddings.

Many of the young Saudi women (and young Saudi men) will know little about their future partner.  The young woman will generally know the women from the future groom’s family same as the man will know the men from the future wife’s partner.  Because of the segregation which remains in practice, a young man or woman may know the relatives of the same sex better than their future partner.  But just because the women or the men know each other, does that necessarily translate that the man and woman are suited for each other?

Most Saudi women do want to marry.  Many will spend years fantasizing about their marriage, their dowry and all the fine gifts received.  Yet a lot of the women have been sheltered.  They have been taken care of by their father or brothers and may not know the responsibilities of taking care of a home or more to the point, the ingredients necessary to have a successful and loving relationship with a husband.

Few Saudi women will have had an opportunity to live away from their family prior to marriage.  For many the wedding night is the first time she has left the family home.  She’s not only leaving her mother with whom she is likely very close but now expected to sleep and be a wife to a man she has barely seen let alone know.  Hearing about an individual or even talking on the phone occasionally with an individual is nothing like living with the individual.

There are not classes which prepare young Saudi men and women to be partners.  Because marriage is a private matter between couples, the rituals of marriage are not openly discussed.  The woman is going in to the marriage scared at the thought of leaving her family home and not knowing what to expect with this unknown man who is now called husband.  The man is likely exhilarated and impatient to claim the woman who is now his.

Furthermore, pressure is typically applied to a young couple to have a child within the first year of marriage.  Time to get to know one another and bond as life partners is limited.  Any mother or father can attest that once a child is born life changes further.  In the case of Saudi Arabia, a child gives a mother an opportunity to forge a bond and closeness she may not have achieved with her husband.  The more children a woman has the less time and attention is given to the father.

Now, to address the topic of divorce.  Some divorces may occur shortly after the wedding.  A couple may quickly realize at the onset they are not suited to one another and likely never will be.  Newly married Saudi couples will generally take a honeymoon for at least two weeks and in many cases for one month.  It is not uncommon for the couple to return only for the woman to be collected at the airport by her father and the groom goes his own way.  She may have learned during the honeymoon that he has habits and traits to which she had never been exposed and will not tolerate.  They both may find that they do not “click” and rather than try to give the marriage a chance are adamant that they have no future.  Relations between the families may or may not be severely strained as a result.

Sadly in the Saudi society there remains a stigma that a divorce must mean the woman is at fault and to blame.  Some women may have tried to stay in a marriage which has discord because of the stigma and/or there are children involved.  If the Saudi man wants to retain custody of children in the majority of cases his wish will be granted.  Many view it as his right to have control and custody of children.  Some purposely keep the mother from seeing her own children.

The Saudi divorcees I know are not “bad” or wicked women.  They are gentle and caring women.  Most of them have excellent professional qualifications.  Yet finding jobs, not easy at any point, may be even more difficult for a divorced woman.  Some Saudi women have elected to become a second or third wife or enter into a misyar marriage to get rid of the stigma of being a divorcee whom society looks upon with suspicion.

Then there is the rise of Saudi women over the age of 26 electing to remain single.  Why have they chosen not to marry?  The reasons can vary from asking too high of dowry prices or wishing to remain devoted to a career rather than a family.  Or a Saudi woman could have a successful career which may make some Saudi men intimidated.  For example, Saudi women who choose to practice medicine have to undergo years of study and training which in turn have them committed more to their career than the desire of a marriage and its associated responsibilities.

Yet the rise of divorcees and single women has placed its own strains among Saudi society and culture.  It remains a law that the woman is to have a male mahrem who takes care of her and sees that her needs of shelter, food, health care and clothes are met.  She may be able to support herself but the society is not prepared yet for the fully independent Saudi woman.

So how does one address the rising divorcees and rising number of single women in Saudi Arabia?  In my personal view changes should be made towards allowing a young man and woman to get to know one another better prior to marriage.  Classes should be instituted at either schools or Islamic Centres preparing both young men and women for marriage.  It would likely be beneficial for a betrothed couple to have either classes or a seminar they attend prior to marriage towards learning about compatibility, compromise, relationships and partnerships.  These suggestions on my part are against the present traditions and culture, however.

If a woman wishes to remain single I don’t feel like there should be continued pressure for her to marry.  Instead an infrastructure should be in place which helps support the single (and divorced) woman rather than shun them or view them with suspicion.

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256 Responses

  1. AA-

    If the inability to ‘get to know one another’ is one of the primary reasons for divorce in KSA, then how come divorce is equally rampant in other more liberal nations, where this isn’t an obstacle?

    And how come this Saudi model of arranged marriages worked as recent as a generation ago?

    As difficult as it may be for some to accept this, I’m convinced that issues unique to our modern times, such as feminism, Hollywood, pornography, and gross immaturity found in many young men play a much larger factor than the issues you have brought up.

  2. I agree with naeem. Many young Saudis are immature, and idealize the life based on Hollywood. There is a false notion that’s constantly fed to people all across the world of “Happily Ever After” and that in marriage husband and wife have to be “madly in love” while husband has to be “filthy rich” divorce is on the rise everywhere, including within Muslim communities of US, where many couple choose each other and in many cases have even managed to date before marriage. But after the newlywed euphoria evaporates, all of a sudden young couple think “Hey that’s not how marriage is supposed to be. I’m supposed to be madly in love with her/him” and dissatisfaction grows. Also in many cases, families play a big role in divorce of a couple. Older generation have the cultural expectation of bride helping to take care of the husband’s family, but younger generation is not willing to put up with in-laws and their nitpicking. Or the reverse of it could be brides mother excessively meddling in her daughters marriage.
    I would say that Western media has a bigger role in dissatisfaction among married couples, whether it’s in KSA or in US

  3. There is no 1 specific reason forthe rise in divorce rates.
    Women’s independence -especially in regards to their capacity to earn is a cause. – in a good way , i’d rather have more divorces and happy pwople than less divorces and miserable stuck woman.

    I also think men are still to accept the traditional gender role changes.

    Throw in the immaturity and both their expectations … it’s a recipe for divorce.

    maybe this generation is just less tolerant and more strongwilled, – who knows..

  4. Classes sounds like a good idea.

  5. I’d like this discussion to remain focused on Saudi marriages and why more marriages are ending in divorce or why more single woman may elect not to marry rather than get off track about divorces everywhere in general.

  6. Radha,
    I’m going to say something similar. I do think the rise in the divorce rate is not an entirely negative thing. Women are becoming less trapped in bad marriages. In the past they had to put up with anything and everything no matter what. And now they don’t. That is part of it.

    Part of it is also totally unrealistic expectations of what marriage is. I do think it is important for people to know each other first and I do think love is important- but even more important than those is respecting the other person. If you respect your spouse, love can grow, and you will work things out. If you can not respect your spouse, even if you love them, love will probably die- or turn to hate, and difficulties in the relationship are unmanageable.

    Of course respect has to be based on real charactar traits- not just gender or the amount of money someone has or how subservient they can be.

  7. Naeem you stated “If the inability to ‘get to know one another’ is one of the primary reasons for divorce in KSA, then how come divorce is equally rampant in other more liberal nations, where this isn’t an obstacle?”

    Correlation is not causation. Just because you have two populations of divorced people does NOT mean that they are divorcing for the same reasons, sorry but your logic does not hold.

    I for one, think there is a correlation with divorce and that is women gaining a voice and economic power. This is true everywhere we look regardless of the onset or style of marriage.

    And actually here in the US the rates of divorce (which some misquote at 50% are ONLY for people who are married under the age of 25… after that the divorce rate lowers to about 25% which to me… is not necessarily a bad thing).

    Personally I do not think divorce is a bad thing. In my own life my mother married my father who turned out to be an abusive alcoholic, she stayed with him for years because she had no career no money and children to feed. We lived in fear of him. Finally my mother got away and all of us children rejoiced. She remaiired a kind man who is now my step father.

    We see higher rates of divorce because women in short, dont have to (excuse my bluntness) take shit from bad, spoiled or abusive men. Women are almost always the initiators for divorce in the US. Men cant just keep his wife and treat her anyway he wants or get a mistress on the side if he tires of her. Now that divorce in the US is unstigmatized a woman can start again with a healthier choice.

    Oh… and men are catching on here in the US, the divorce rates are falling like a stone.

  8. Two other points particular to Saudi. Marriage isn’t for everyone and neither is having a family. Yet the pressure is so intense here that many who shouldn’t marry etc do because of such pressure. People should not be pushed into marriage or parenthood.

    Secondly the Mahrem system. If one has a good Mahrem, why would any intelligent woman risk that changing with a man she hardly knows? Why would she risk having children that essentially will not belong to her- but to her husband? I would think long and hard about that.

  9. I don’t think career should stop marriage – having kids may but nor being married.
    I think having a demanding career and having a loving happy marriage is possible. hard but possible.
    however i understand why some couples don’t want kids thrown inthis mix and that i fully agree with.

    as for why some women prefer to stay single – what’s wrong with that. maybe they are happy this way – career or not.

  10. A Pakistani Muslim doctor is in trouble for producing a sex education book for Muslims. Lack of sex education certainly plays a part in failed marriages.
    Here’s the article.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12117519

  11. The basic reason for divorce is, that it’s possible !
    Look at the western societies in the fifties and compare the divorce rates then with the rates now.
    The main reason is that the social control (family, neighborhood) has diminished due to geographical mobility. – Of course you can add other factors, but the strongest is the one the society can’t do anything about. Believe me also in the western world politicians, priests …. cried wolf.
    The divorce rate is an example of Saudi Arabia changing behind the back of the society’s intentions.

  12. Considering Saudi women are well aware of the stigma attached with divorce for women…and the potential for not finding a future marriage partner if that is what they wish once they have divorced…one must assume they still feel divorce is the better option then to remain married to that man for whatever reasons.

    That by itself is very telling.

  13. I wish they would have classes everywhere to prepare people for the basic things in life, like marriage or balancing a check book even, LOL. That would be so helpful, because once you’re pushed into adulthood it’s kinda like a truck hitting you in full force, my mother calls it the awful 20s…and they are just that, learning experinces and clipping away naive ideas of the world.

  14. “Most marriages between Saudis remain arranged. Generally it is not the man who arranges the marriage of the children but rather the mother, Grandmother and Aunts.” I understand if they introduce someone to their child but they shouldn’t be the ones making decisions of forcing their children to marry.

    “Furthermore, pressure is typically applied to a young couple to have a child within the first year of marriage. ” Oh dear.. Haven’t they already suffered enough..?

    I live in a muslim country and know about these things but they aren’t as common as in Saudi Arabia. I have learned that the culture here can be questioned and changed, even the locals think so and agree that there are many things that could change into better. I am not talking about religion issues here, rather the issues which are just cultural and even against islam. As a muslim I can’t accept many cultural things here and I don’t even need to. I can’t change these habits but they don’t need to be a part of my family’s everyday life.

  15. @Maria – I agree with your comments. My article is written from the Saudi perspective where religion and culture have been woven together making it complicated or confusing at times.

  16. QUICK NOTE: I apologize for this being so long ahead of time. >_<

    I believe there are four main criteria for a relationship to work out, generally speaking. These are love, commitment, compatibility, and attraction. Love is a very basic concept. It is as you would love anyone whether it's a friend, family member, etc. Don't confuse this with most people's concept of being "in love". Commitment is just that- sticking with someone through difficult times, arguments and disagreements, etc. Compatibility is about wanting similar things out of life at least as far as where to live, what lifestyle to have, values, children, etc. Attraction is not just physical, but mental and emotional as well. I believe that love and commitment are the two more important ones.

    My point in mentioning this is that many people don't want to be committed because that means putting work and effort into the relationship. I've noticed in a lot of different cultures that people expect the initial (nervous/somewhat fake IMO) attraction to last forever. When reality sets in and disagreements occur, people tend to think the relationship is over; it's just not meant to be when in reality they just weren't willing to work through their differences. IMO, the relationship only gets better after reality sets in because you know that the other person will be there for you no matter what. However, most people are taught to believe in a "fairytale" type of relationship. I imagine this is worse if people don't date but still spend much time fantasizing over their perfect love.

    If couples aren't given a chance to get to know one another before marriage, then it is quite possible that they may not be compatible with one another. While I still think two people can still make a relationship work even if they are not compatible with each other (as I've seen it happen), it may bring the people less grief over their lifetime to divorce rather than stay in such a relationship.

    I think it is sad when one parent will not let the other parent see the children after divorce unless there is good reason to do so. I also think it is wrong for one parent to be looked upon favorably due to gender, whether in favor of the male or female. However, it takes time to change such biases.

    I would imagine one of the other reasons for divorce rates in the US going down is that more and more couples seem to be living together without getting legally married first. So in the case that they break up, then there would be no record of divorce.

    I like the idea about educating couples on all areas of a relationship and marriage.

  17. I’d say love is completely optional, and as for attraction, all you need is to not be completely repulsed by your partner. Commitment and compatibility in my book rule the day.

    Unfortunately, even when people do date, they look at things that have very little to do with true compatibility. Example: “We are so compatible! We both have blue eyes, have been to Paris and like classical music!” What they should be asking is “What are your spending priorities? What is your approach to family finances? What is the degree of in-law participation in our life that you envision? What are you assumptions about division of household work? What will your life be like at age 64?”

    Very few people I know ask these questions unless they’ve been through formal premarital counseling like the one Catholic church offers. Then there is sexual compatibility or lack thereof, and out of that pickle, I’m afraid, there is no way out – can’t work on that one.

  18. so true, NN. When Abdullah and I were dating and during our long distance courtship phase (he in Pakistan, me in India) we would send emails full of such questions that dealt in depth with family, values, culture, etc.

  19. Ah Carol, but you are so wise beyond your years! Smile and hugs.

  20. For a marriage to be successful, both the partners have to be patient always, this is the most difficult yet most easy solution. My question, can rich people be patient? I’m afraid the answer is no (Not all but most).
    When rich Men can’t wait for a second on the street and honk you out of this world, how can somebody expect then to be patient with a woman? I personally, do not have any experience with a rich woman and maybe that’s the thing that has keept me a little bit happy.
    Learn patience my friends 🙂

  21. I don’t know, Sultan. I’ve been very happily married for 22 years and my husband is the only one that has the patience. 😉

    I don’t see how rich or poor factors in though. How can you tell the honking driver is rich? I bet he is poor and driving a rich man’s car! lol

  22. Your hubby the only one who has patience? Then maybe you are rich and he is poor…lol
    The real problem I feel is, maybe people are not rich but they have the feeling that they are rich, when you have this feeling, then you tend to think that I can’t love with this partner and look to end the relationship.
    I will stick by what I said, we human beings no matter, rich or poor, should be patient in all circumstances to not cause harm to ourselves.
    It’s easy for people here to break relationships but not try the patience formula.
    Prophet Mohammed said, “if you hate one of your wife(s)’s manner, you may dislike other manners”, this is explaining us to ignore the bad manners and at the same time think about her good manners and rest your frustration. This is not only for Muslims but everybody can study them.

  23. SORRY A TYPO, corrected this time
    Prophet Mohammed said, “if you hate one of your wife(s)’s manner, you may like other manners”, this is explaining us to ignore the bad manners and at the same time think about her good manners and rest your frustration. This is not only for Muslims but everybody can study them.

  24. @Sultan Mohammed -‘Then maybe you are rich and he is poor…lol’

    That is for sure! Fortunately it seems that he thinks that I have a LOT of good manners to make up for the bad. 😉 I don’t know, I’d never put up with me! LOL

    ‘I will stick by what I said, we human beings no matter, rich or poor, should be patient in all circumstances to not cause harm to ourselves’

    I agree with you there but I don’t agree that rich people stand out as more impatient or mean than poor people. At least not here in the US, you can find very arrogant people among the poor as well as the rich and the most laid back, pleasant people among the wealthy and the poor as well.

    Where do you live Sultan Mohammed?

  25. That’s so modest of you…period

    At least not here in the US, you can find very arrogant people among the poor as well as the rich and the most laid back, pleasant people among the wealthy and the poor as well.

    I agree with you there but I don’t agree that poor people stand out as more impatient or mean than rich people. Fun in twist…lol

    I think we both understand that we are talking in general terms about rich or poor.

    We know that there are many reasons behind divorces and it’s not of high importance at-least for me to only talk about the reasons and not think for solutions, being an optimistic person, I think about solutions to solve problems or alteast try to understand what’s wrong and avoid repeating the same mistakes.

    The issue of high divorce rate among Saudis is pretty disturbing and more disturbing is that there are no efforts from anybody (I don’t see any) to take any progressive steps in solving this devastating social problem.

    Being a temporary resident of Saudi arabia, at my level want to propose improvement in temperament while taking life breaking decisions. This sounds practical to me and achievable, we don’t need big budgets or royal fund pumps to apply these changes to personalities, I will be very happy if even a single saudi after reading my comments stops himself/herself from breaking a relation, hopefully 🙂

    I’m from Hyderabad, India, 27 M working as a Security Systems Engineer in Al-Khobar btw did you ever live here? It’s a very nice place, Khobar 🙂

  26. Sultan Mohammed, No, I’ve never been there and at this time I have no intentions of ever going either. I don’t think that I’d get along real well with the religious police 😉

    I do appreciate that you would love to affect some change there in KSA but seems they don’t like to hear ideas from ‘outsiders’.

    Perhaps you don’t see any efforts in solving the problem because they refuse to make any changes to their ‘age old traditions’. Perhaps if men and women were allowed to interact with the opposite sex they would be able to get along better once they are living together as a married couple?

    I would be willing to bet that the divorce rate is much lower where the women are less educated and have little or no access to the outside world. Not that they are happy, but at least they don’t feel empowered to change their lives by getting a divorce or otherwise challenging her lot in life.

  27. Lynn, you’ve got it wrong this time, khobar is one of the most lenient and relaxed place in my stay of more than one year and being a frequent commuter, I just saw them 2 or thrice. What I see everytime I stepout is lot of western and Philipinos and other nationals buying things and/or spending time in the market. Remember it’s very close to Aramco HQ, this place is not the the typical conservative Saudi Arabia. Even do not fear the religious police, just wear a hijab and be decent, which I hope you are :d

  28. No I do NOT wear hijab, I am against the whole sexist CONCEPT of it. I also think it is insulting to men to assume that they have no control over themselves. But, still, I can manage to be decent (depending on my mood) 😉

  29. You’ve got your choice in all aspects of your personal life, if you want to make a visit to Khobar or any other part of the kingdom, you are bond to wear a Hijab if you are a normal citizen.Your managing comes second and I’m sure you will be surprised yourself if you wear a western outfit on the streets after noticing the reaction of people not the police 😉

    Well one of the reasons of breaking marriages lies in not wearing Hijab and it’s not about men loosing control, getting intimidate towards somebody and is a gradual process;

    Let me explain you the process in scientific terms; when a man looks at an attractive woman, eyes send a signal to the brain and brain to the heart and to the sexual nerves which may or may not trigger the launch of the missile, even if the missile is not launched there is some disturbance left in the mind of that man and there takes birth the eagerness to see her again or to meet her or talk to her etc

    Now let’s check what is the result and assume that the man in our story is your husband, his interest towards you reduces and he is ready to share your time with her as a friend or as a partner on bed, will you like it? Will you not like your husband to be only your’s? If your answer is yes, then why shouldn’t other husbands get the opportunity to stare at you and end up spending other women’s time(now assume you are the woman being starred at)????

    Please remember Hijab is not the only reason for relationship splits nor is the only solution to this problem, it’s just a precautionary attire nothing else, it’s not oppression of women but it’s a tool that can be helpful in protecting relationships.

  30. ‘I’m sure you will be surprised yourself if you wear a western outfit on the streets after noticing the reaction of people not the police’

    What would the reaction be?

    I’m sorry but your whole ‘hijab saves marriages’ theory does not really hold water when you consider a Muslim man in KSA with four wives that all wear niqab. I have spent 22 years with my husband and have never worn hijab and only ‘guard my modesty’ when I feel like it. 😉 If there have been men that were left with ‘disturbances of the mind’ then they have not made me aware of it so I guess it’s all good, eh? Perhaps I’m just not an attractive woman…sigh. Or could it be that men and women that are not raised with such unnatural segregation are able to think of the opposite sex as human beings rather than just sex objects?

  31. I also agree that a hijab does not save a marriage and should not be confused with why a woman does or does wear a hijab.

  32. oops…should read does or does not…

    On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Carol Fleming wrote:

    > I also agree that a hijab does not save a marriage and should not be > confused with why a woman does or does wear a hijab. >

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  34. Lynn: Please do not get grind two different topics, polygamy with illicit sexual relations and/or relationship splits these two are both very different in nature.

    When it comes to not wearing Hijab, I said you’ve got the complete freedom of not doing so and you believe it’s absolutely not needed to wear from your own thought process, it’s fair enough for me although I might not agree with you, but the problem is your opinion about women who wear Hijab is not a positive one, you feel a willfully Hijab wearing women as a sex object or the whole concept looks to you a sexist concept. Why can’t you respect others choice of wearing it?

    About Polygamy, before commenting about anything that comes to your mind, always remember to educate yourself about the topic completely and then decide what is right and what is wrong, it’s just a suggestion and not an order…period

    To carry on our discussion about Polygamy further, I would request you to think about the following questions;

    1) Did any civilization in the history of mankind restricted any of their citizens on marriage?

    The answer is no, if it’s yes, you can prove it.

    2) Does any religion except Islam put a limit on the number of marriages even today? I challenge you to prove one marriage from any religious scripture other than Quran.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Buddhism

    The answer is no if it’s yes you can prove it, later so called modern religions put a ban on polygamy but never did any religion restrict the number of marriages.

    3) Do you know the entire concept of polygamy in Islam? Such as who can marry more than once? Under what circumstances can one marry more than once? Are you aware, how difficult it is to maintain more than one wife, wives rights and their children’s rights according to the Islamic teachings? Do you know wife(s) and Husband rights in Islam?

    If you understand what a marriage brings for a woman in Islam you will be glad to allow your husband MARRY other woman.

    What role then Hijab plays is a good question?
    I can answer that now, but I want you to understand the above mentioned questions and then I will get back to this.

  35. […] in Saudi Arabia have wider consequences than irreconcilable differences between a couple.  When a couple marries in Saudi it is generally a joining of families.  Honor and face of a […]

  36. Muslims not following the guidelines of Islam is very common and a few or a lot of Saudis could be among that group but that doesn’t make Islam’s principles bad infact they are bad.

    For example Saudis marrying out of greed is their own deeds and not what Islam has taught them, again to learn what Islam has taught about conditions where one can marry a second wife shall have to be understood.

  37. […] in Saudi Arabia have wider consequences than irreconcilable differences between a couple.  When a couple marries in Saudi it is generally a joining of families.  Honor and face of a […]

  38. “If you understand what a marriage brings for a woman in Islam you will be glad to allow your husband MARRY other woman.”

    Marriage as i understand brings love, commitment, respect, companionship, laughter, friendship, security and trust….+ a host other things. After 2+ decades of these with 1 person, why on earth would i be glad to share ??
    If i wanted the companionship of women – i have that , it’s called friends, one doesn’t need your friend to share your husband. it’s best to keep both separate.

    I’m not condoning polygamy, to each his own however islam or otherwise i cannot see the benefit of polygamy, why share everything when you can have it all 🙂 and pl don’t quote the widows and orphans stuff or the male:female ratio.

    Like everything else in a perfect world there would be choice to marry one or many, choice that no one abuses and choice that comes without religious compulasion and 17th century logic attached.

  39. “f you understand what a marriage brings for a woman in Islam you will be glad to allow your husband MARRY other woman.”

    The majority of women I know who have found themselves in a polygamous relationship did not have a choice in the matter.

    I also second Radha’s point of view. I know that it is expected for a Muslim woman to say that she would want for her Muslim sisters what she has for herself but I believe in reality there is a red line when it comes to sharing a husband.

  40. Lynn: Please do not get grind two different topics, polygamy with illicit sexual relations and/or relationship splits these two are both very different in nature

    Sultan, if you think that ‘legal’ polygamy (don’t assume that I don’t have knowledge about something just because I have a different opinion than you) is any different than my husband choosing to have a relationship with another woman besides me then YOU are the one that is confusing ‘marriage’ with ‘ownership’. Also remember that I come from a country where I don’t need a man in order to survive.

    ‘but the problem is your opinion about women who wear Hijab is not a positive one, you feel a willfully Hijab wearing women as a sex object or the whole concept looks to you a sexist concept. Why can’t you respect others choice of wearing it?’

    I never stated any opinions about a woman who wears a hijab. I said – ‘No I do NOT wear hijab, I am against the whole sexist CONCEPT of it. I also think it is insulting to men to assume that they have no control over themselves’

    Again, please do not assume that I do not have full knowledge of the concept of hijab. As a woman, I’m going to guess that I have a broader understanding of it than you do and I AM educated about the history of women so there really is no need for a lesson. But perhaps YOU are the one in need of a lesson? http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/women-dress-and-undress-and-religions/

    After you educate yourself by reading that post, THEN, you can have a conversation with me about the ‘role hijab plays’ in a relationship.

  41. Sultan…

    “2) Does any religion except Islam put a limit on the number of marriages even today? I challenge you to prove one marriage from any religious scripture other than Quran.”

    One doesn’t need scripture…the quran limits marriages to no more than four at one time, right?

    Other religions, let’s say Christianity, limit it to one at a time, generally speaking.

    So if I do the math correctly if both a Muslim and a Christian have 100 wives in their lifetime…assuming that you divorce before taking another and assuming that the Muslim has 4X the opportunity for divorce than the Christian…the Muslim is going to hit the 100 marriages a LOT faster than the Christian.

    Give me a break…most religions don’t advocate for polygamy and if they did they no longer do. While it MIGHT have had a good inception once upon a time…meaning the chance to care for widows…how many Muslim men do YOU know that line up to take on widows and the elderly woman without a husband so she can have protection??? NOT many. In your Islam regardless of what it is SUPPOSED to be for, that isn’t how it is used. Furthermore, it is allowed to be written in the marriage contract that a woman will not agree that her husband take more than one, is it not? What happens if he breaks that contract? Anything? And if it isn’t going to be used as the Prophet said why even have it? It is left in place so men can trade up at anytime they choose. Plain and simple.

  42. After 2+ decades of these with 1 person, why on earth would i be glad to share ?? The answer to this question will vary from person to person, for you it might be a No, after all you a human being (now don’t say that I’m not a human being) but for others it could be a yes.

    I assume that you know all the reasons for allowing polygamy, so what is your opinion about a man marrying for providing shelter to a woman and not for lust? This answer will make me understand how you love your permanent husband in this temporary world.

    One correction, in Islam it’s not a compulsion to marry more than once, it’s just an option which shall preserve a man from having illicit affairs and use a woman to fulfill his lust, if he really wants a woman, he should take the responsibilities of a husband and only then come into her.

  43. Last comment was for Radha

  44. American Bedu: What is beautiful about Islamic teachings is it explains you, this life is temporary along with all the things we have, children, husband, brothers, mother, father, wealth, property etc.

    I know we all agree with that, we know we shall leave all these worldly things behind when we breath our last breath but we forget that and become selfish (I’m talking in general), when it comes to serving people we only talk, is everybody ready to allow their husbands to marry a woman in need (let’s say only legitimate sexual urges)? sadly the answer is No to a large extent and yes to a very small number of ladies, this small amount exists there is no doubt in my mind and I’m a witness of at least one lady who did it, I disagree with you American Bedu on that.

  45. Lynn, I think you should understand your country better, please visit this and accept that you live in a country which is most debt in the entire world and in the history of mankind. I do not want to continue talking about US but will pray & hope for you to understand your own land of opportunities.

    A man and a woman are equal by all means but due to the difference in their physical strengths they have different roles to play. Man the bread winner and protector of the family and woman the leader, teacher, partner, lover etc at home.

    I agree with many points raised in your article and reject a few. I think this article has only talked about the small history about women and has largely not touched the torture women were subjected to during the entire history of human beings.

    I seriously reject the conclusion of this article, which says “He/She would not have made us to be naked.
    If God was so worried about us showing no skin,
    He/She would have let us keep our fur”

    What can I say about such an immature statement??? It’s a big blunder really, if you have something show it, sounds stone age logic.lol

  46. Lynn for you, please visit this website

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

  47. Lyunn: It was $14,223,525,688 when I sent you this link and when you visit that site, please check the total what it turns out to be.

  48. Oby: God sent scriptures as channels of communication and nobody ever saw God, he is the one the only. If you changed your scriptures, it’s your word not God’s word. We haven’t changed the scripture and will keep it God’s word. You must agree that no other religion except Islam tells you to marry once and if you feel you can marry again, marry but be just with all and not exceed 4. You are free to disagree with me so do I. Tc

  49. Sultan, ”so what is your opinion about a man marrying for providing shelter to a woman and not for lust?

    Well, he could do some real charity, and help her out without expecting her to pay for it with sex.
    Real charity would be helping people without demanding anything back in return.
    Anything else is not charity but business. In this case sexual access in return for shelter and food. The basics of prostitution.

  50. “so what is your opinion about a man marrying for providing shelter to a woman and not for lust? This answer will make me understand how you love your permanent husband in this temporary world”

    I do not believe my husband needs to marry a lady just to provide shelter, I would gladly help her get setup, provide a source of income and be a source of guidance for her kids if she so desires and he can do the same. How come all this help needs to come attached with a marriage tag? so for himto help someone he needs to get somehting in return? marriage?

    We still support 2 of my Sister-in-law monitarily & their many kids, my husband hasn’t found the need to marry them 🙂 so obviously many women can be helped without the bonds of marriage.

    That has nothing to do with my love for him in this temporary world , as for permanent husband, you just said a man can marry a woman for shelter and not lust, so if my husband passes away, i could marry some other man who cares enough to provide me shelter ??? what happened to permanent husband..

    I have seen a few of my spouses’s friends take a 2nd wife, not one was for shelter and not lust !!!! i mean seriously in this small pool of people i know, maybe they are all shallow morons but each adn every one of them married to satisfy and urge to upgrade .. It reflects on their lack of respect for their wives, lack of commitment , not much bonding and low self esteem.

    Again i’m not one to say polygamy is bad, it is what every indidual desires for himself/herself at the same time, not wanting to have a co-wife doesn’t make one bad either. not wanting your husband to have anotehr partner does in no way reflect onthe love and respect you have for him.

    This is what i find in conflict with the few muslims i know, for them saying anything against polygamy is bad? whY? It worked in 17th century , do we all live like that nowadays?

    Polygamy in my opinion ( just mine) has nothing to do with orphans/widows /taking care etc., tec., Women can have kids, men cannot, so if a man has many wives, he can propogate rapidly, more kids means more strength for the tribe/group /ehatever. It all comes down to increasing the population – nothing more nothing less.

  51. @Sultan – ‘what is your opinion about a man marrying for providing shelter to a woman and not for lust?’

    How do you feel about a woman having enough money of her own that she could afford to give her friend, who is down and out due to divorce or tragedy or whatever , a room to live in or a loan until she could find a place on her own? Because THAT can, and DOES happen right here in Debtville USA LOL No need at all for a man to marry her here where she is treated as a fully capable human being rather than just a liability or dependent..

    ‘if he really wants a woman, he should take the responsibilities of a husband and only then come into her’

    So, am I to understand that you personally would NOT choose the option of marrying another wife? I would hope that you would still be charitable and help a woman who is divorced or widowed. Perhaps you could employ her in your home as a maid rather than marry her in order to help her?

    ‘Man the bread winner and protector of the family and woman the leader, teacher, partner, lover etc at home’

    HA! There are plenty of ‘Stay at home’ dads and working moms or single women raising happy families who laugh at you with that statement.

    Also, that was not MY article but rather our friend Aafke’s blog.

    And what, exactly is the point of your ‘Debt Clock’ link? Just because you live in the US does not mean that you have to be in debt. At least that’s what my husband tells me but I do argue with him that he is too UN-American! LOL But, I guess I am glad that he had that attitude because we don’t have any debt and are able to be retired at a fairly young age. Ok, I’m retired but I still pimp my husband out massaging strangers on a part time basis.

  52. Actually your so called torture of women is directly linked to the emergence of patriarchal religions, in earlier Goddess religions women had naturally a high esteem and freedom, which the later patriarchal religions destroyed, making women into slaves as they do in Saudi Arabia, and really making them suffer.

    Like I said in my article, in cultures where it was good to be a woman, women were proud of their female attributes and showed them off, maybe they went bare breasted like in Egypt and Crete, like men show their beards off in today’s patriarchal societies.
    The compulsive covering of women is directly related to their lower status.
    The fact that excessive covering is causing serious health problems in women, and can even inflict deformities to their children is proof enough that if we take a the theory that there is a god who created us, it is clear that such a god never meant for women to cover their skin. Otherwise it would not be unhealthy.

    Also, we can see from history that women are not dependent on men, and never had to, unless they lived in societies which were constructed in such a way as to make women totally dependent and under control of men. however, such societies are constructed by humans and in no way”prove” that women need to be supported by men as we see in free societies that women can fend very well for themselves.

    Research done onto bone samples from the stone age revealed that in groups where the men went off on hunting trips, and the women stayed put and hunted small animals and foraged for food the women were better fed, and had more continual access to food sources.

    What women don’t need is weak minded men thinking they know better than women, wanting to have as much sex with as many women as possible and writing openings for that in their man-made religions, making up these twisted religions and male gods to bolster their weakness and write and edit dubious religious”holy” books to blackmail women into an unhealthy, abnormal and wholly erroneous concept of an artificial, invented inferiority which never existed before.

    Really, except from a bit of semen to help get a baby from time to time women don’t need men for anything.
    Actually with modern science women could even dispense with men altogether.

    Really Sultan, men are unnecessary to women, and the sooner you start realizing that and behaving accordingly, the more chance you have to keep a place in this world.

  53. Aafke: I agree with not expecting something in return of charity but disagree with your comment about the basics of prostitution, sexual access in return of shelter and food is not prostitution, it’s part of right of a wife over her husband among many other rights. It’s a very big chapter, please do not concluded without being aware of the entire rights.

    What I understand is that lack of complete knowledge about the reasons encouraging polygamy in Islamic teachings leaves doubts in the minds of others. You talked about charity which is a good thing but I will give you the perfect combination of marriage and charity which was given by the prophet , I quote “Reward Even While Having Sexual Intercourse with wife “Some of the companions of the Prophet said to him: ‘O Messenger of Allah, the affluent among us has taken the rewards (at the hereafter)! They pray as we pray, fast as we fast, and then they give charity from the surplus of their wealth!” The Prophet said: “Did Allah not make for you that from which you can give sadaqa (a reward)? Verily for every time you say Subhannallah (Exalted is Allah) there is a sadaqa, and for every time you say Allahuakbar (Allah is Most Great) there is a sadaqa, and for every time you say Al-Hamdulillah (Praise is to Allah) there is sadaqa, and in every act of enjoining what is right there is sadaqa, and in every act of forbidding what is wrong there is a sadaqa, and in your sexual relations there is a sadaqa.” The Companions said: “O Messenger of Allah, is there a reward for one of us when he satisfies his sexual desire?” The Prophet said: “Don’t you see, if he had satisfied it with the forbidden, would there not have been a sin upon him?” They said: “Why, yes! He said: “In the same way, when he satisfies it with that which is lawful, there is for him in that a reward.”
    [Reported by Muslim]

  54. LOL I guess we were all typing at the same time, I hadn’t seen your posts before I posted mine but I see that we all think alike. 😉

  55. Radha, so if a man has many wives, he can propogate rapidly, more kids means more strength for the tribe/group /ehatever.

    but in a normal society the ratio of men to women is about 50%, so if some men marry more than one wife that would mean that many men have to go without wife, and/or have to be kicked out of the group. That would also weaken the gene pool, it would become smaller and smaller so a bad solution .
    Besides the fact that it is bad for women.
    Unless you allow women to marry more men as well, in which case everybody needs to keep a calendar.

    I am not against polygamy and polyandry either, as long as it involves freethinking adults who have not been brainwashed from baby-hood onwards by man-made religions.
    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/getting-married/

  56. ‘In this case sexual access in return for shelter and food. The basics of prostitution.’

    Prostitution, that was EXACTLY what I thought when I found that my 18 year old daughter, who ran from home to live with a Muslim family rather than respect her family and house rules, had been, within a month, married off to a man that needed a ‘green card’ and an outlet for his sexual urges.

  57. Lol..raining comments, Lynn I’m very happy for you that you are free of debts but one thing should be clear no more USA boasting 😛

  58. Lynn, Well, we all think alike except Sultan…

    Sultan, your peculiar man-made religion is way too obsessed with sex. It changes marriage, which should be an honest trusting loving partnership, into an exchange of sex for basic living, It makes all women into prostitutes, even the children they produce are not their own but belong to the men
    It gives men all the rights and women none, it giives men more sexual partners than women. Which I think is really strange.
    I really don’t see why, if men can marry four women and have sex (rape) all the slaves they own, why women can’t do the same thing. Clear proof of another religion invented by men to suit themselves.
    You can quote all you like from your men-biased, man-made religion it only proves how man-made it is.
    Even heaven is a continual orgiastic food/wine/sex binge.
    Too weird really!
    But I can’t blame you, you defenitely get a sweet deal here.
    As well as in the afterlife.

  59. ‘one thing should be clear no more USA boasting’

    huh? Why not?

  60. Lynn: Couldn’t understand what you wrote about your daughter, please elaborate. It sounds very sad though 😦

  61. Lyunn: Just kidding take it easy 🙂

  62. Lynn, who got the money when your daughter was married off?
    You know, the mahr, the ”sex-for-sexual-pleasure” the man has to pay the women.
    As a virgin and greencard provider your daughter should have been pretty expensive.

  63. Aafke: Let’s leave it there to check what we get after life!!! Our opinions are very different.

  64. But I know what you think you will get: besides the wives you own here on earth, you will also get the 72 the ice-cold regenerating virgins and pearly boys in case you want a change, and with an erection which will never wilt, you will need them all….

    What I wonder is why Muslim women never wonder about the poor deal they get, even in the afterlife.
    Or can they borrow the pearly boys?

  65. Let’s check what we get after death, why discuss them now, when we are aware of our rewards or punishments. You seem to be very confident about what I get, I’m very confident of what you will be subjected to. Don’t worry live happily 🙂

  66. Oh sorry, stupid question,
    ”Because ”God” wills it so”

  67. No, I said I know what you think you will get. What I think you will get is nothing.

  68. Yes, Sultan, it IS very sad about how Islam tore my family apart. Muslims took my daughter at 12 years old, right after the shock of 9/11 and converted her to Islam and she got progressively stricter and stricter in her religion until she was 18 and wearing a niqab and denouncing her family as infidels. One of the beauties of this country is that at 18 you have full autonomy and your parents are not required to support you if you don’t want to live by their rules. You can go out and get a job and support yourself but her friends told her that is would be ok to go ahead and leave home because they had her back. We figured that with the way Islam has such respect for family, and especially the mother, I figured they would counsel her on those basics and send her back home a changed girl. Yep, they changed her all right but they didn’t send her home but rather used her to get one of their friend’s kids American citizenship.

    How about that as a boastful story about the USA?! LOL See how easy it is to obtain the American Dream? Just find a vulnerable teenage girl and marry her and TA DA! It’s yours!

  69. ‘As a virgin and greencard provider your daughter should have been pretty expensive’

    I KNOW that’s what I said! But he just kind of looked at me like I was an alien or something! LMAO

  70. Oh, but I didn’t know about the Green Card until recently. They didn’t want to bring up THAT fact at the time.

  71. @Aafke –

    regd polygamy andproducing more kids,– I never said such men were particularly bright 🙂 irrespective of wether their genes are fit to be propogated or not, men like to spread them around ..

  72. ‘I’m very confident of what you will be subjected to.’

    How can you be so sure? I thought that Muslims believed that only Allah knows who he will allow in? I thought it was pretty top secret and even kind of sinful for a human being to act as though he knows what God will decide?

  73. Lynn: I always judge situations when I the the two sides of the coin and I know your story line but not your daughter’s so not commenting on it any more. But you like to extend my condolences to you on loosing your child, I just remember “One palm is not enough to clap”. But if your daughter is a true muslim, she should atleast talk to you or visit you in any case on the condition if you are not a threat to her life.

    I even would like to suggest you, to accept her as a Muslim and try to convey her that you still love her, only if you do…lol

    Well really USA is not the best place in the world to live in and is very close to become the worst among the bad.

    I think India is one of the best places to live in the world.

  74. Lynn: You’ve got it right about “How can you be so sure? I thought that Muslims believed that only Allah knows who he will allow in? I thought it was pretty top secret and even kind of sinful for a human being to act as though he knows what God will decide?

    It’s an error my me. You’ve got good information about Islam, that’s pretty nice 🙂

  75. Oh but Lynn, think of all the brownie points he is collecting by defending his religion, by being charitable to poor women in trouble. Such a lovely religion for men, you get rewarded double! You get the booty here on Earth as a repayment of your charitable act, no repercussions for how bad that charitable act may make any other wife feel, actually she looses brownie points if she isn’t happy about it, and then after you die you get all the rewards doubled!

    No really, I fully understand why men love to be Muslim, And I greatly respect men who don’t fall for this booty-bribery. What I really don’t understand is why women fall for it.
    Maybe a lot of women are really dim after all….

  76. Sultan, we all know about Islam.

  77. I can’t really say, it’s good for you. To know about Islam and then reject it is even greivious. Do you know that?

  78. Aafke: I’m making a last comment to you as a neutral person and not as a Muslim, please read and understand carefully, you are one person who knows everything about Islam but yet you are against it, what I noticed is, you are failing to produce any logical or rational argument to prove Islam wrong, what you are coming up is bizarre out of this world unacceptable statements, I’m sure even many non-muslims or even atheists will disagree with your arguments.

    This makes me feel that you are trying your best to come out of the boundaries we human beings have but failing to do so, why not accept the boundaries and become a part of it and live a peaceful life? It’s again your wish and I leave it there. Many thanks 🙂

  79. ‘To know about Islam and then reject it is even greivious. Do you know that?’

    YES, we DO know that too. So, wouldn’t you say that gives us a VERY good reason to make sure that the info about Islam is NOT propogated in our countries? LOL

  80. Oh and Sultan, I DO accept that my daughter is a Muslim, I do NOT accept that she has changed from a person that was charitable and kind to ALL to a person who reserves her respect only for Muslims that follow her Salafi, hateful, version of Islam. When I mention to her that the majority of Muslims are NOT like her she tell me that ‘They are messed up’

  81. ‘You’ve got good information about Islam, that’s pretty nice’

    I’m glad to see that you realise that. Now, could you spread the word to your friends that just because we do not accept things about Islam is NOT because we are ignorant of it but rather because we DO know about it! LOL I had SO much respect for Islam and Muslims before I learned more about it. 🙂

  82. In good ol’ usa, it is okay for spouses to have any number of illicit relationships – that is okay and legal (if you are above 18 and consenting). You can have any number of illegit kids (some not even knowing who their fathers are) – that is all okay and legal. The man may or may not support his mistresses and their kids- that too is acceptable. His poor legit wife need not know about all this. Man can live with another man or woman for sexual satisfaction. Marriage is not necessary. That is legal and alright.

    A woman can pose naked on huge billboards or strut around unclothed – that is being modern (even though it is cave men dress style).

    But it is a big NO NO for a man to marry legally more than once and support the wives and kids in a respectable manner – That is illegal and degrading.

    It is a NO NO for a women to cover up. It is uplifting for a woman to be naked but not to be covered. A women is classy to be all exposed for the men. It is not men’s world but their own. Covering allows her to be sick while uncovering can only give her skin cancer.

    What a crazy world we live in.

  83. ‘why not accept the boundaries and become a part of it and live a peaceful life?’

    Aafke! You are not living a peaceful life?!

  84. To know about Islam and then reject it is even greivious. Do you know that?
    yeah, I know about that bit of emotional blackmail.
    Woehahahahahahaha!
    What a con-job!

    I am so sorry you are not going to gain any hasanat out of us…

  85. ‘In good ol’ usa, it is okay for spouses to have any number of illicit relationships’

    It may not be against the law but I pity the fool that tries that with ME!! LOL

  86. ” I fully understand why men love to be Muslim …”

    and yet more and more women are converting to Islam in the west!

  87. Sarah: I second your thoughts, well said

  88. ” you are one person who knows everything about Islam but yet you are against it, ” ….

    Oh, puleeeesssss!!!!!!!!!! Sultan, they don’t know Islam – they just think they do. They just know what they read from anti islam sites and TV channels. Or they make it look like they know by creating their own versions and twisting the truth to suit their agendas. (I am not talking about you, Lynn – you are kinda cute).

  89. ‘The man may or may not support his mistresses and their kids- that too is acceptable’

    Actually, you are wrong there. He does not have to be married to the woman to have to support his children. He may not have visitation rights but he still has to pay for his children (blood tests can prove it rather than a marriage license) Even if he already has a wife and kids that he is supporting. Also, there is a law against people having more than one spouse there is no law against them having more than one lover and if all parties are ok with it then they could have more than one household going just like in KSA but you just can’t be married legally.

    ‘It is a NO NO for a women to cover up’
    Clearly you have never been to Michigan! lol

  90. (I am not talking about you, Lynn – you are kinda cute)

    LOLOLOL

    Are you admitting that I DO know about Islam and I still, cutely but with VERY good reason, reject it? LOL

  91. No, Lynn, I have not been to Michigan. I know there are women covered up but what I am talking about the opinion of the people.

    Its good to know that men have to support their bastards. but how many escape this?

  92. Lynn, I am só at peace! drinking my tea, doing my work, actually being awol from work to comment here…
    Riding my horse, walking my dog, and the Netherlands is green and fragrant with spring-flowers.
    And I have many friends, and I have my dreamrabbit who loves me.
    And I am making beautiful art…
    That’s the problem I think, i don’t need heaven, I’m already there.

    You know, comparing my real life now with an imaginary eternity of standing by watching my very own dreamrabbit having endless orgies with regenerating virgins doesn’t really seem to be an improvement somehow…

  93. Lynn, you had a bad experiece and still are. You see negative things in Islam and you tend to be biased because of that. I understand that. I invite you to re-explore Islam from the Quranic point of view and not from Muslims – with an open mind and you will see the difference.

  94. ‘and yet more and more women are converting to Islam in the west’

    Yes, and I just gave a pretty good description of one of them. Doesn’t that make you proud?

  95. See Lynn, I am still the überbitch, whatever you try!

  96. Damn you Aafke! DAMN YOU!! LOL

  97. It does not make me proud that what your daughter has turned out to be under the name of Islam.

    I pray that she is guided in the right direction and you both hug each other the way Islam wants mother and daughter to be close. A non-Muslim mother is not be treated badly and pushed aside. If she has read her books right, she will know this.

    The day she coes to you in peace and respect for you, that will be the day I will be proud.

  98. I can’t agree more w/ what you said Sarah n understand one thing, they are not innocents unaware of Islam rather they have seals on their hearts, so better we leave them at what they like. After all we are not concerned about what they want 2 do, we have had fair bit of explanations.

  99. Sarah, That will be the day I will be proud as well but that will NEVER be able to make up for the pain that my husband and I have gone through, it will NEVER be able to make up for the pain that her now dead grandparents and only brother went through and all with the guidance of those who HAVE supposedly read their books right and were adults with children of their own. I just boggles my mind!

  100. Sarah, my daughter is not the only convert with the same story. Don’t you think it would be wise for you and Sultan and other Muslims to look into how and why a situation like my daughters’ can happen rather than try to convince us how great Islam is for society without even having a current Muslim society that you can point to as proof of your assertions?

  101. Sultan, how do you know that YOU are not the one with the seal on YOUR heart? hmmmm?

  102. oops, sorry I missed a couple comments of yours Sarah.

    ‘I know there are women covered up but what I am talking about the opinion of the people’

    I guess it is safe to say that since there are women that are covered then their opinions are that they should be covered and the ones that choose not to ‘guard their modesty’ are of the opinion that they do not have to. See how that works here? People are free here to make the decision on their own how they want to dress it is not forced on them so we are better able to judge how they really feel. In KSA or other countries without laws against harassment women are forced to dress in a uniform cover so we don’t really know HOW they feel about covering, do we?

    ‘You see negative things in Islam and you tend to be biased because of that.’

    See, you are wrong again. I DID read the quran so that I could show my daughter that what she was doing was wrong and oh BOY did my eyes get opened! I saw the difference all right, and I learned that those peaceful Muslims that I have known in the past were just ‘messed up’ and were NOT following Islam correctly. ¯\(°_°)/¯

  103. SARA: Lynn …. I invite you to re-explore Islam from the Quranic point of view and not from Muslims – with an open mind and you will see the difference.

    Yeah Lynn, you should definitely explore this religion of peace. Can’t ya see a kinder gentler Islam for the Allah’s World and its future under Islamic rule.

    No hand chopping [at first], but dhimmi status … well… maybe!!

    You may be surprised how ‘fair’ you would be treated.

    Although if you do convert to Islam, full citizenship can be yours!

    Allah may reserve the right to levy a small tax on those who wish to remain ignorant of Islam …
    … the jizya. See Koran 9:29.

    No non-Muslims or any women can ever be president.

    Unmarried men and women will no longer be allowed to congregate in the public space.

    Muslim holidays and rituals will have the protection and be enforced under state law. This may include a short prison term for eating during the Holy Month of Ramadan, in the day of course!

    Religious freedom will be limited to the practise of Islam and respect for Islamic laws. Church construction may face certain restrictions.

    And remember Allah can explain the Shari’a better than the damn Islamophobes!

    So, go ahead, Lynn. Profess your shahada. Help Sara gain some thwab towards the paradise:)-

  104. Religious extremism makes me cringe! *shudder*

    While I can understand where polygamy may have had its place back in the days when women needed a man as a status symbol of protection centuries ago to protect them from getting raped, etc., nowadays, IMO it’s simply not necessary.

    My family has helped many other people get back on his/her feet. In most cases, it was men. Should my mom/dad have married these men that needed help? Just seems more than a little wrong. Besides which, I don’t think my parents would have helped if there was a mandatory sex exchange involved because my parents love & respect each other and are simply not interested in these other people in this way. So in this way, maybe it is easier and better to help without involving marriage.

    Sarah,
    People cover up as much as they want to (or don’t want to) in the US. However, too much or too little and you may get funny looks. I get looked at less lustfully wearing short shorts where I live in the US now than I did when I was wearing long-sleeved shirts and jeans in the UK. Sometimes, guys find it more attractive when a girl completely covers. So honestly, I think modesty is completely cultural.

  105. Sultan, you are so full of it. Anybody that thinks Islam is based on logic and reason is dreaming. Remember, Islam is not what you want it to be: it is, rather, that the Quran says and what Muslims do.

    The simple fact that you choose to ignore the reality of the Muslim world when you talk of your religion shows how little you believe in logic and reason. In simple terms, you want us to believe that what Muslims do has nothing to do with Islam. On any day of the year, any hour of the day, people in the West treat others better than the followers of your dear prophet.

    Forget reason and logic – lets talk morality.Since you are a self-proclaimed expert on Islam, tell me if if by chance you have noticed that your prophet and his followers are recorded as doing things that Muslims would condemn if done by infidels? In other words, why do you quote one passage yet ignore others in the same collection (even with similar narrative chains)?

    Lynn has it right. How dare Muslims talk of the so-called ‘superiority’ of Islam yet ignore the reality of Muslims and their societies? Where is that logic and reason?
    have commmitted that fiond you The fact that you quote the ahadith makes me wonder about your sense of morality.

    whows that that lohow
    logic and reason are uses logic and writes theou are failing to produce any logical or rational argument to prove Islam wrong, what you are coming up is bizarre out of this world unacceptable statements, I’m sure even many non-muslims or even atheists will disagree with your arguments.

  106. Sarah,
    I forgot to mention that people can’t run around naked over here unless they’re on a nudist beach, but I figured you already knew that? It’s called “indecent exposure” or “public nudity”, and it’s against the law here.

  107. Muslims love to talk about islam, but how muslims acts
    in the name of religion. Never.

  108. Sultan..there are a great many people who know Islam better than born Muslims…and still reject it…or accept it and then reject it as they learn dig deeper into the details..the nitty gritty so to speak.

    If Islam was all that you claim…why has there NEVER been even ONE country, govt, community etc that could come close to living this supposed ideal? None. It’s all corruption, blood, oppression, blood, chaos…and more blood. Where is this peace you speak of…even islamic countries have never found it…never even came close. You would think that some of them…hell even ONE of them could have come close at least…so Muslims could point at it and say…see…we speak the truth. That islamic country has gotten it right and now the rest of us need to follow suit.

    Anyone?

  109. Lynn, yes you are right, it will never make up for all the pain she caused your family. She did things which she thought were right from her mind. sometimes, evil comes to the mind in a “good” way. They are made to think that what they are doing is good but in fact it is wrong. The bad is made to seem good. They become blind to the reality. How can it be right when Islam teaches us to love that womb that bore us, when mothers have a status three times more than a father, when we are not supposed to say “Uff” to parents when they reach old age, when the word for “womb” is the root word for “mercy” and is also one of the names of God, when we are told to respect the mothers that bore us with such difficulty for nine months? And then to shun the parents who spread their wings in protection to their offsprings when they were weak and vulnerable, when they could not speak for themselves or even feed themselves – it is just not right.

    But Lynn, there is such a things called justice and one day you will see it. No one is left out in the cold.

    Lynn, there are thousands of lectures given and Islamic TV channels which do exactly what you asked us to do – ie look into why such things happen and how it can be prevented but it alot depends on the individual. Some kids go into drugs and drinking and other bad habits and there are so many channels talking against these as well. It is the wrong crowd, wrong friends …etc. However much we talk against evil, it is bound to happen, we cannot completely wipe it out.

    Be patient, good things will happen.

  110. Strangeone, polygamy is not to protect the woman alone but the soceity as a whole. I agree that it is the most misunderstood concept. In fact, Quran is the only scripture that says to marry only one. In hindu books, a god had 3 wives. Krishna had more than 16,000 wives. In the Bible, Solomon had 700 wives. So there was no real limit set in any other scriptures. One can marry any number he wants. It is the Christian church that later on said to marry only one (not the scripture). Same in Judaism where one rabbi set the limit. It is the Indian penal code in the fifties which set the limit that a hindu cannot marry more than once. So we can see that the scriptures do not set any limits. This was changed only by men. Quran is the only book that says to marry only one. And marrying more than one is an option that comes with conditions.

    What is odd to note is that in a land which is supposed to be free, polygamy is not allowed but living with many mistresses is allowed, marrying same sex is allowed, having children outside of marriage is allowed, walking around half dressed is allowed but to live respectfully in a married life is not allowed. How is that a free life in a free land? Why is not one free to dress covered up if one can be undressed? Yes modesty is cultural. In USA modesty is to be half dressed. In the east half-dressed is equal to being nude and it is shameful. That’s how we see it.

  111. ‘How can it be right when Islam teaches us to love that womb that bore us, when mothers have a status three times more than a father, when we are not supposed to say “Uff” to parents when they reach old age…’

    It’s all very simple really when you consider that the MOTHER is an INFIDEL! How is she supposed to respect her mother when everything that she is being taught tells her to shun said evils?

    But Sarah, you keep just talking about my daughter and her young foolishness. What about the ones that led her to her actions, or ok, I’ll be nice and just say that they are guilty of not talking her out of it. Hmmm? What about them? What about the respected American educated, PHD in Islamic Studies holding, Imam who performed the marriage ceremony knowing that she was alienating her family by marrying without their knowledge? How in the world do you explain that? When questioned abouyt it he explained it by saying that he just doesn’t know WHAT came over him because he had NEVER done that before and he was just oh so sorry and went on to explain just what you did about the respect owed to mothers especially. Fat lot of good THAT bit of knowledge did for anyone involved, eh? At least she finally took off that stupid niqab (at least in MY presence anyway)

  112. ‘In USA modesty is to be half dressed’

    Correction there Sarah, in the US, modesty is defined by the individual.

  113. This blog site is full of hatred towards Islam and Muslims but their approach is a little different

  114. Lynn, I am not even talking about your daughter. I am only talking about her actions in order to try to explain to you why people do things and how it is wrong. I cannot talk about her personally because I don’t know her and it would not be right to talk about her without her being here to give her opinion. And I cannot speak about the people involved as I don’t know then either. I can speak about their actions. The imam, in his position, should have looked into the situation carefully and talked to the people concerned.

    But one think, even though I do not agree with how your daughter is disconnecting herself from her family (from what you say), but isn’t this a free society where if you are above 18 and consenting, you can marry whom you choose, dress how you like, engage in sex with whom ever, get pregnant before marrying even in their teens, live with anyone and you don’t need parent’s permission? People get married without telling their parents all the time.

  115. “This blog site is full of hatred towards Islam and Muslims but their approach is a little different”

    And why is that, Sultan?
    It is because true followers of the Quran are silent and the other 72 sects show what Islam is not. We call them infidels and kafirs and label ourselves as Muslims. They are confused between what is written in the holy books and the general behavior of the Muslims. Sucide bombings, setting fire to buildings, carrying hate slogans, keeping women in their pockets, making random fatwas to suit their moods ..etc. Do we who follow the Book follow it to the letter? Let’s be honest.

    People fear what they don’t understand or don’t know. It is our duty to demonstrate what we believe in. They don’t hate Islam, they hate how a Muslim behaves under the name of Islam but it is we, we Muslims who hate them while they are in ignorance. This is why they twist the truth to make sense of it. We have to blame only ourselves.

  116. Sarah: I agree with you, that we Muslims are also to be blamed but you are forgetting about the enemies of Islam and Muslims. In your last comment you only talked about one part, that’s bad display of Muslims but you have completely ignored enemies of Islam.

    Well I’m not claiming that people here are enemies of Islam but I can’t really say are not either, as I do not know them who they are. See when we are not sure whom we are talking to it’s better we stop talking. I’m telling you this out of my experiences I’ve had with many people on facebook at various pages trying to clarify misconceptions but it doesn’t really work this way.

    I’m not trying to stop you from doing what you are doing here, I really appreciate that but be careful in selecting to spend your time, where people might deliberately waste your time, in the sense, they do not discuss to learn something they simply make your life uneasy by raising many questions in some manner or the other and we like try to answer them.

    See when I started participation on this blog site, I was not aware of what kind of people are here, but now I’ve got a good idea where this is heading towards, hence I’ve decided not to indulge myself much, that’s it. If you want you can carry on.

    One best example I can give is that of Lynn, I’m unable to accept that she is a genuine as the way she is portraying her daughter’s story, I smell something fishy, maybe I’m wrong but, that’s not the way somebody talks about her daughter, people can but I need more evidence that she is true, so that I can discuss her issue and try to advise her, but do you feel we can get to some conclusions with a person who knows everything, at-least feels knows everything but do not want to change?

  117. Yes I am aware of the enemy of Islam and I can tell you that there are a couple here. I do not interact with them. Their intentions are clear. And there are others who are genuine. It is easy to make out.

    On the outside, I did mention the enemies of Islam. The problems of Muslims are not 100% their own. It becomes our problem when we do not follow the Book.

    The enemies and I mean the real enemies create divisions and rifts between Muslims. Their motto is divide and conquer and they have been doing this to the Muslims for centuries. Muslims must be strong to realise this and not fall in their dirty trap. Do you think that the freedom that US is boasting about is really freedom? It is only made to look like that while they draw the innocent deeper and deeper into their web of deceptions. To them it is only a conspiracy … lets not fool ourselves.

  118. I agree with you Sarah and I think only Islam can give real freedom with acceptable restrictions or boundaries and clearly has drawn roles of all, wifes, husbands, sons, daughters etc We just need to understand them and practice them.

    Please don’t worry about the rifts between Muslims, that is bound to happen as Prophet’s supplication for unity among Muslims was reject by Allah SWT, it’s not possible to maintain it, this doesn’t mean that we should stop talking about unity, we should always promote unity not just among Muslims but even among Muslims and non-muslims, so that we all can live a peaceful life.

    Also do not worry about the evil people who are ruling us by dividing us or by force, they feel that their plans are flawless and are winning every race against the God, they do not know that He is the best of the planners, they are in-fact falling under his trap. I pray for these poor people to realize what they are doing and repent immediately, he is the most merciful to accept their repentance.

    We should always follow the book of allah and never get influenced with the temptations of shaitan, today what Muslims need is patience and education. That’s the best combination to survive and this is no time to fight. Almost all the violent Muslims are not on the right path, this what I believe.

  119. “The problems of Muslims are not 100% their own.”
    — wow that’s a story if i ever saw one..

    The problem most muslims i know is their “judgemental behavior”. Honestly i have no problem if they cover, don’t cover, marry 1 marry a milion or whatever it is they do..they are free to practise,preach & behave as they deem fit.

    I just wish they wouldn’t condemn others, cause gossip, gangup against andtreat people badly just beacuse they are different or do not follow islam the way they see fit.

    So keep to yourself, practise your religion privately or within yourself and mind your own business and all will be well 🙂 seriously it’s not that hard.

  120. @lynn, – No one can know what you are going thru with a child ripped away, I hope you get peace, i hope your baby comes back into the fold, irrespective of what religion she follows and i hope she does not regret the decisions she took, that in my opinion is the worst thing for a parent to see.

    Your case is what prompted my previous rant, My kids do not follow islam, due to various factors. you will not believe the level of condemnation and criticism they faced ( in MI) here no one cares, ,even though dad was ok with it.
    SO in effect it’s ok if your child who has no islamic influence ( both parents non-muslims) chooses Islam that’s a good thing, but we are wrong because we did not raise them as muslims even though half their heritage is hindu !!!! I could never wrap my head around that logic 🙂 i don’t even try. I just keep far far away from such people and confine my dealing with those who take friendship for friendship and love for love irrespective of religion,
    I have seen this level of interfearence only inthe last decade or so, befor ethat no one cared, i don’t know why. SO even though my kids had the choice to choose one or both religions, i’m kind of glad they didn’t choose the radicalized version of either religion.. but still i worry.

  121. @Sarah – ‘but isn’t this a free society where if you are above 18 and consenting, you can marry whom you choose’

    You are absolutely right but, you see, we still have the same love for and expectations for our families’ futures as everyone else in the world even if our laws protect the autonomy of the individual. That is where we count on the people that your children have contact with would have a positive influence on them rather than aid them in further harming their situation. You have probably heard of ‘It takes a village to raise a child’? Perhaps we need tighter restrictions on who can be a villager? lol

    But see, this whole situation made me realise that I WAS stereotyping Muslims before and I will NEVER do that again, I used to think that the more religious they were, the better people they would be. You know, with a deep belief that ‘you want for your sister what you want for yourself’. 🙂 It was the hypocriscy and shattered illusions of trust in their respect for family that blew me away. Come on, tell me what would happen if this had been you Sarah. Who would have been killed first? You or your ‘husband’?

    Do you honestly believe that had my daughter come from a Muslim family that that Imam would have performed that ceremony without speaking to her father first?

  122. ‘Almost all the violent Muslims are not on the right path, this what I believe’

    ALMOST? See the confusion?

  123. ‘The enemies and I mean the real enemies create divisions and rifts between Muslims’

    Gary Busey was just on The Ellen Show. He is a nutcase but, as everyone on Celebrity Apprentice says, he has nuggets of wisom in his madness. Perhaps this quote was one of them? He said ‘Enemies are here to show you what you need to change about yourself’ He said ‘Enemies are just friends in reverse’.

    What do you think? 🙂

  124. @Radha – ‘but still i worry’

    I think that you probably don’t have anything to worry about as your kids, if they do decide to look into Islam, would likely not feel the need to do it in secret as my daughter did and would likely look to their dad for guidance and F seems to be a pretty decent guy 😉

  125. And what is this obsession with covering up women?
    really can we stop having these ridiculous conversation? It is fact that the more you cover up the more sexualized you become. In places where people are used to nakedness people do not get aroused by a glimpse of an inch of skin.

    If you want to live in a perpetual sexual obsession, by all means cover everybody up, but don’t claim it’s for modesty, because we know it does not promote modesty, it promotes sexual obsession.

    Lynn, of course no Imam would marry a woman, one of these subhuman, non-sentient seducers without having the mahram present. But of course he knew her parents were only kuffaar, so the soonest they got her out of your infidel clutches and properly subdued the better. This was all a big conspiracy against your family, and this mindset is mainstream Muslim, otherwise the fact would have been noticed by Sarah and Sultan.

    And you two are wrong, your problem is that we have read everything, the Quran, the hadith the tafseer, Ibn Ishaq, etc.
    Your problem is that we did read it with an open mind. And any open mind, any mind which isn’t veiled by the mindlessness of religion, will half-way through come to the inevitable conclusion that your religion is especially nasty, even nastier than Christianity.
    And you can see the full effect of the super-nasty religion in Msulim countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afganistan.
    The only people who do any good for your religion are those who only follow it in part, and even then they will not speak out against the atrocities committed in the name of your religion.

    Your problem is that we know exactly what your religion is about and that we have very good reasons to reject it.
    Actually, any intelligent, clear thinking, moral human being has no choice but to reject Islam.

  126. @Sultan – ‘Well I’m not claiming that people here are enemies of Islam but I can’t really say are not either, as I do not know them who they are. See when we are not sure whom we are talking to it’s better we stop talking.’

    Sultan, when I meet a Muslim I won’t know if they are terrorist or not because I do not know them. Should I avoid them as you are suggesting here or should I get to know them? Should we all, regardless of belief systems come together so that we can know one another or should be all wear uniforms so we can easily know who we are safe to associate with?

  127. Something I learned from one of my fashion classes was that generally the more you covered, the more you had to hide. I thought this was an interesting concept.

    @Sultan Mohammed,
    I’m neither for or against Islam (or any religion for that matter) as far as what others want to believe. I have a lot of good friends that are Muslim. However, I’m happy with my personal beliefs overall. I hope that everyone will be similarly content and find peace and happiness with whatever they choose to believe.

    @Sarah,
    Gay marriage is not allowed in all states. The law for this varies from state to state. One possible reason someone came up with for why polygamy is not allowed in the US is the legal chaos it could create if multiple people were able and chose to marry each other, etc. (For example, if 3 men and 4 women all choose to marry each other, then one or two divorces from the group, who gets what?) Generally speaking, having a mistress is frowned upon and not really accepted here. It is seen as cheating on one’s spouse.

    I don’t care if I’m completely covered or half-naked, as long as I don’t have a lot of people staring (&/or lusting) after me, I feel psychologically & physically comfortable, and am dressed appropriate for the weather. I generally try to dress in a way that I don’t draw attention to myself (i.e. more modestly) wherever I’m at. From what I can tell, the biggest difference in how a guy treats women is not how clothed or unclothed she is (generally speaking) but how the guy was taught to treat women.

  128. “Enemies of Islam”…the catch all phrase for anyone and everyone that disagrees with a Muslims “Islam = Peace” claim.

    Muslims need to learn the difference between an enemy and a critic.

  129. Sarah…

    I have to say what you said about not hating Islam but watching Muslims who don’t practice it and getting the wrong idea is about one of the closest things I have heard a muslim say on this blog to reflect how we (or I’ll speak for myself) feel. IF islam was practiced in the way I keep hearing muslims proclaim it actually is…well I would bet my bottom dollar that most people wuld have nothing negative to say…your statement really was a clear peek into how I and I am sure a lot of other nonmuslims feel (and I am not talking about others here as they can speak for themselves.)

    Sultan…you said sarah did not talk about the enemies of islam… she understood the point. IF muslims practiced it like it is supposed to be and nonmuslims saw that example…there would be no concern for “enemies” of islam because most people would have a live and let live attitude. The “enemies” here for the most part are reacting to what they see around them in the practice of Islam. IMO Sarah is right.

  130. RAdha…

    I know this will sound awful but I need to ask this question…when you lived in Michigan were you in a Muslim majority area like Dearborn?

    If so then Jay’s point about where muslims are the majority there is condemnation of nonmuslims would be accurate I think.

    I am wondering if where you live now muslims are the majority. I’m guessing since you have no recriminations against you you are NOT in a muslim majority area.

    I guess I am trying to pinpoint if it is the fact that muslims in the majority (regardless of mainstream or radical) or even country (as they live under a banner of equality for all here) cause this prejudice or if it is the type of muslims that cause an issue (those that have been exposed to more radical teachings). I think I know the answer but I am just wondering….

  131. @oby – No we did not live in dearborn, we lived in ANN Arbor – a lovely lovely lovely univ town 🙂 first and then in West Bloomfield.

    I don’t think it was the place, i just think we got a weird lot .. I don’t know the reason. Somehow there i felt our acquaintances judged more than they do here, we do have close friends both muslimand hindu who don’t care about the religious choices and happening in our housegold, but the muslims we interacted in Mi did frown upon me celebrating hindu festivals etc.,
    Luckily here we are blessed with a lovely group of friends who leave religion in the privacy of their homes.

    There was also subtle pressure in Mi for me to convery ( couched inthe talk of showing me the right path).. F does not encourage such talk and comes across as aloof and annoyed at them, but i think they were amazed we could successfully merge 2 diff beliefs happily for so long, here in the NE area no one bats an eye and i feel much @ home, although i LOve lOVE Love MI — go BLUE

  132. ‘i LOve lOVE Love MI — go BLUE’

    🙂 and don’t forget the Red Wings! Go WINGS! lol

  133. Radha…

    I LOVE to hear stories such as yours and F’s…similar to mine and my husband. That is the way it should be…love and friendship…acceptance of others right to their religion and respecting their right without condemnation. No judgements and keeping it private… I think that is one of the keys…keeping your religion to yourself.

    Thanks for sharing…not exactly what I was expecting, but happily you have a balanced group that respects your choices now. 🙂

  134. It is indeed interesting to go through Sara’s and Sultan’s musings here, where they play off each other’s alter egos, to make their points. I perused through all their postings and I would like to present a few of the “gems”.

    Sarah Sez:

    On the outside, I did mention the enemies of Islam. The problems of Muslims are not 100% their own. It becomes our problem when we do not follow the Book ….. And why is that, Sultan? It is because true followers of the Quran are silent and the other 72 sects show what Islam is not ….They are confused between what is written in the holy books and the general behavior of the Muslims

    Here, Sarah declares all the commentators who expressed a “different” point of view as “enemies of Islam”; in other words as “kafirs”. She goes on to say that because of kafirs or enemies of islam, the entire blame cannot be placed on muslims alone. And then she queries Sultan as to the real reasons and then gives a very contradictory answer herself by blaming it on the other 72 sects of islam, claiming at the same time that her sect is the “chosen one” by Allah.

    According to hadees and sira of prophet, Prophet Muhammad predicted that his followers would become divided into seventy-three sects, every one of whom would go to hell, except one sect, the religion professed by himself and his companions. However the number of Islamic sects, now over 150 and counting, has far exceeded Prophet Muhammad’s prediction.

    Each of the sects is now in a quandary as to if they are the chosen ones by Allah; similar to Sarah’s claim about her particular sect. These sects have murdered, killed, beheaded each other since the times of the Rightly Guided Caliphs; first Ayesha and Ali and then Ali and the rest of the sunni world. This mayhem still goes on today (as it has for fourteen centuries) with no end in sight. It is one thing to keep it contained in their muslim world; but it becomes serious when this mayhem is exported to Kafiristans around the world.

    And hell yes, Sarah, some of us kafirs are extremely confused between what’s written in the koran and hadees and seera and the general behavior of muslims. There are over 150 muslim sects and as many or more interpretations of the trilogy. And when muslim acts of terrorism occur, each sect points fingers at the other 149 or more. As kafirs, most of us point our one finger at the only islam we know; most of us don’t know or even care about the 150 sects or more. Can you blame the kafirs for that, Sarah?

    That’s why I have always believed (having studied islam for the last ten years) that islam is not a religion but a cult. There is one thing that all religions share and that is the Golden Rule. Virtually all religions, no matter how diverse they are, have at their core the belief that one should treat others as one wishes to be treated. This Golden Rule is absent in Islam. In this sense Islam can be compared to KKK, Nazism and other racist supremacist groups. I believe that we should ban Islam because of this. If KKK can be banned why can’t Islam be banned?

    I discussed it on another thread last week and here’s the link:

    http://americanbedu.com/2011/04/07/saudi-arabiaworld-unwelcome-the-muslims-next-door/#comment-62290

    Sultan sort of disagrees with his alter-ego Sarah and offers this psychoanalysis:

    See when I started participation on this blog site, I was not aware of what kind of people are here, but now I’ve got a good idea where this is heading towards, hence I’ve decided not to indulge myself much, that’s it … This blog site is full of hatred towards Islam and Muslims but their approach is a little different …. Well I’m not claiming that people here are enemies of Islam but I can’t really say are not either, as I do not know them who they are. See when we are not sure whom we are talking to it’s better we stop talking.

    Sultan, while slightly disagreeing with Sarah, offers the perfect islamic solution: “stop talking” to “enemies of islam” or kafirs. Sultan is a “good” muslim. Actually a “very good muslim”. He is only following the triology of koran, hadees and prophet’s seera. One can’t blame him.

    Then Sarah chimes in:

    Yes I am aware of the enemy of Islam and I can tell you that there are a couple here. I do not interact with them. Their intentions are clear.

    Now here Sarah identifies two specific “enemies of islam” or kafirs but does not name them. Now like a “good” muslim, she says that she does not “INTERACT WITH THEM”. Like her alter-ego, Sultan, she is only following the triology of koran and hadees and prophet’s seera. One cannot blame her.

    Sara, like Coolred said it beautifully in her recent posting on this topic: Muslims need to learn the difference between an enemy and a critic.

    Here Sultan declares a Fatwa on kafirs (muslim kafirs and non-muslim kafirs alike):

    Also do not worry about the evil people who are ruling us by dividing us or by force, they feel that their plans are flawless and are winning every race against the God, they do not know that He is the best of the planners, they are in-fact falling under his trap.

    The question, my dear Sultan, is this: If Allah is the best of planners/schemers, how come he has been plotting against his umma the last fourteen hundred years. And has been sending his blessings on kafirs and their kafiristans the last fourteen hundred years.

    Just a few examples: Kafirs have landed on the moon and have proved that moon is not split as your prophet claimed; Greece has more libraries/published books than the entire ummaistan combined; kafirs have won hundreds of nobel prizes while ummah has only three to show for (out of those three, two were educated in kafir lands and one is a late muslim kafir ahmedi from pakistan). Talking of pakistan, AQ Kahn stole nuclear technology from Holland for the islamic bomb. Looks like Allah swt is plotting and scheming in favor of the infidels and has completely forgotten about the ummah.

    May Allah swt guide you both on the right path!

  135. Radha..

    “I have seen this level of interfearence only inthe last decade or so, befor ethat no one cared, i don’t know why. ”

    You are right…I think overall the practice of islam is becoming more strict and we are seeing it manifest itself in clothing choices especially women with the heavy coverings/niqab, more judgemental attitudes of nonmuslims and even “moderate” muslims who are not muslim enough, more intolerance toward nonmuslims. Look 30 years ago at the ME… women had more rights, more education, worked side by side with men.

    It is called the Islamic revival…and if you observe it has a very distinctly arab feel in many ways. Why because I believe it is all the importation of Saudi islam…(my opinion). Notice in many instances it is the YOUNGER people who are the MOST pious…the oder ones go about their business like they always have…the younger ones have the coverings, the piety etc…it is on college campuses too.

    while I have no problem with an islamic revival per se, sadly ti doesn’t seem to be a revival that has afforded islam the ability to grow…It feels much more repressive and fundamentalist than 20 or 30 years ago which makes for getting along and playing well with others a bit of a challenge if they are not muslim.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival

  136. while digging around on the post above I found this one that I think explains and encapsulates what is going on in recent years that Radha said…I found it really interesting and actually learned some things I was not aware of.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

  137. I’d like to chime in and say that Abdullah and I were also able to merge customs, traditions and cultures successfully. The personal relationships are all about communication, understanding and at times, compromise whether it’s a bi-cultural marriage, friendship, business meeting or holding virtual dialogues on a blog!

  138. Lynn,
    “tell me what would happen if this had been you Sarah. Who would have been killed first? You or your ‘husband’?

    Do you honestly believe that had my daughter come from a Muslim family that that Imam would have performed that ceremony without speaking to her father first?”

    Are you asking what would I do if I was the mother, daughter, imam or husband? I would not have killed anyone, lol, that’s for sure. If I was the mother, I would be same as you, I would fret and worry and sleepless and keep trying to win her back. I would pray for her. If I was the daughter, I would never be able to sleep while I know my mother is unhappy and upset with me. I would meet half way or compromise somehow try to make things right. If I was the husband I would have advised my bride not to treat her mother in this way and this is not the kind of wife I would like to be married to. There will not be a complete married bliss, something always nagging at the back of the head. If I was the imam, I know I am the one responsible and answerable for my decision. I would have asked around about the couple and their familes, the real reasons for the is union, any ulterior motives. I would have adivsed the daughter not to leave her parents unhappy because that is not what Islam would want. Yes if the daughter came from a Muslim family, he would have asked for a mahrem.

    I cannot speak much about the people involved as I don’t know why they did what they did; I can only assume.

    I do not agree with Gary Busey about enemies being friends being in reverse. Enemies are there to overpower and gain superiorty, to destroy whom they hate and maybe rule over them. Enemies are blinded by their need to win over their enemies. Friends will not harm another or have greedy intentions.

    Strangeone,
    “One possible reason someone came up with for why polygamy is not allowed in the US is the legal chaos it could create if multiple people were able and chose to marry each other, etc.”

    First of all thanks for replying to my question when no else did.
    Complications will come with anything. Are you saying there are no complications currently with any laws? Laws keep changing to fix the complications and there are ways to work around them. I don’t think polygamy is not allowed for this reason. But since this is a “free” land where anything almost goes, why not the freedom to marry more than once or even dress the way one wants to. Having a mistress maybe looked down upon but it is very common and it something that has become acceptable.

  139. Harry,
    I think you misunderstood my comment or made it seem like that. Sorry for not expressing myself very well. English is not my first language but I try to make it clear. And sometimes I get over enthusiatic and I write what is on the top of my mind.

    But I am glad that Oby understood me.

    ” Sarah declares all the commentators who expressed a “different” point of view as “enemies of Islam”; ”

    No, you are making that up. I have clearly mentioned that there are “couple” of them. I did not say ALL who have “different” point of view are enemies. Can you please quote my exact sentence if you can see one?

    I said as you have rightly pasted : “On the outside, I did mention the enemies of Islam. The problems of Muslims are not 100% their own. It becomes our problem when we do not follow the Book ”

    How does that mean that ALL are enemies. When I said “outside”, I meant outside this blog, in real life, not online, in the real world, politically …etc. And I talked in my other comments before about that. That is what I meant. But that comment can never be misnderstood to mean that all who have different point of view are enemies od Islam.

    The problems within the Muslim society becomes a problem when they do not follow the Book and this gives false meanings to non-muslims regarding the teachings of Islam.

    “She goes on to say that because of kafirs or enemies of islam, the entire blame cannot be placed on muslims alone”.

    Not because of kafirs but enmeies of Islam (not all kafirs are enemies). Yes I believe in this. The enemies of Islam try to break up the ummah by creating divisions and we see this all the time.

    “And then she queries Sultan as to the real reasons and then gives a very contradictory answer herself by blaming it on the other 72 sects of islam, claiming at the same time that her sect is the “chosen one” by Allah”

    I think you are confusing yourself by copying different parts of my comments together and trying to … what? Confuse everyone else?
    I said in the beginning that the way Muslims are behaving all over thw world carries a misinterpreation of what the real techings are. If the Muslims are firm in their belief and follow the Book strictly, non-muslims can see what is Islam all about. But what they see now is killings and terrorism and blowing things up and keeping women in pockets. Clear so far? Good.

    HOWEVER, the way Islam is portrayed now, is not entirly because of these Muslims, but also because of the enemies of islam who try to break up the ummah. There is no contradiction in this. I had talked about this before and that is why I said that I DID mention enemies of Islam before. (Maybe way before you landed on this blog). You are mixing my comments by pasting what I said before and later and misplacing them to suit yourself.

    “And hell yes, Sarah, some of us kafirs are extremely confused between what’s written in the koran and hadees and seera and the general behavior of muslims.”

    Since you have studied Islam for 10 years, I don’t think there should be any confusion for you, unless, of course, you did not pay attention in class.

    ” And when muslim acts of terrorism occur, each sect points fingers at the other 149 or more.”

    No we point at the enemies of Islam. Yes the ENEMIES.

    If you believe in the “Golden Rule” why don’t you follow it yourself?

    “Now here Sarah identifies two specific “enemies of islam” or kafirs but does not name them.”

    Yes I did identify 2 but maybe there are more, my miscalculations. Why should I name them? lol. And why should I interact with anyone I do not feel like interacting with. Nothing to do with being “good Muslim”. I think you are getting all mixed up and carried away. Control yourself, please.

  140. @oby – in all these yrs of marriage,fiendship adn compromise we never realized simple things that confuses everyone.

    Both my kds have very muslimish ( is that right) or arabic sounding last names .. Al……
    their first names are indian ( Priya & Rohit) also predominantly given to modern hindu kids 🙂

    so my son when he went to college was recruited to the islamic students group based on his last name and then when he identified himself as Hindu and showed his chain with a ganesh pendant ( why ? — he believes ganesh helps him pass exams 🙂 )
    there i sdisbelief all around and then da/mom/family history comes out .. such a pain according to him, he actually wanted to change his last name to mine 🙂 much to the horror of his dad who refuses to go thru more legal paperwork in his lifetime … my daughter already has concerns abut her last name, wondering she thinks her dad’s first name should be her last name ( s.indian style) .. he hates the hypen after the Al- and F just glared thru these discussions , and reminds them once they are 21 and legally adults they can change their name, their sex, or anything else they want as long as he doesn’t have to run around and do the paperwork… see it all comes down to that..

  141. Sarah, you have been fed the slogan, ”Islam is the answer”. So every problem in Islamic countries is because people don’t follow ”the book” precisely enough.

    So what happens to countries where they do follow ”the book” to the letter?
    We know, don’t we: They become countries like Afghanistan. Look around you in the world, the more countries follow the letter of Islam, the poorer and more messed up they are. And I am not even starting on human and women’s rights.

    While conversely, countries where Islam is not in charge, and where the Muslims follow a more relaxed form of Islam, are better off, more prosperity, less violence, and women have a whole better life.

    You really should give that some serious thoughts.

  142. Hi Sarah,

    I apologize if I misinterpreted your postings. I believe,
    it will be very helpful if you can define/explain what do you exactly mean by the so-called “enemies of islam”, and identify who are they.

    Thanks,

    Harry

  143. AA,
    “So what happens to countries where they do follow ”the book” to the letter?”

    Like? Afghanistan? Lol!!!!!!???

    Again, like?

  144. Harry, your apology accepted. By enemies I mean none other than the ones who manipulate and control the media and world economy and even US gov – yes the zionists.

  145. SARA: By enemies I mean none other than the ones who manipulate and control the media and world economy and even US gov – yes the zionists.

    Hmmmm. So you don’t believe that there are “enemies of islam” within islam itself. Like one or more of the 150+ islamic sects who manipulate and/or misinterpret the triology of koran and hadees and prophet’s seera …. wahabbis come to my mind????

  146. @Sarah – ‘I cannot speak much about the people involved as I don’t know why they did what they did; I can only assume’

    Yeah, me too.

    ‘It becomes our problem when we do not follow the Book ‘

    Perhaps the ‘problem’ is the ‘book’ that is not clear?

    ‘Enemies are there to overpower and gain superiorty, to destroy whom they hate and maybe rule over them.’

    Wow, so if you have an enemy is that what you are supposed to do in return?

    Do you not think that some people ASSUME that people are their enemies just because they do not share the same beliefs?

    ‘By enemies I mean none other than the ones who manipulate and control the media and world economy and even US gov – yes the zionists.’

    Awww MAN!! I thought you were sane back when you said you thought I was ‘cute’ but now I have to question that. 😉

    Radha, your kids are legal adults at 18 and can change their names or whatever IF they wish, but I’m sure that they know that 😉

  147. @lynn – int he truest sense yes, but in our house if someone is paying tuition for them then they are considered minors 🙂

  148. Sarah…”‘Enemies are there to overpower and gain superiorty, to destroy whom they hate and maybe rule over them.”…wow…you just described Islamic extremists and how they view Dar al Harb. 😉

  149. Radha, 🙂 YES, I agree with you there. If I am supporting you you’d better be DAMNED sure that I will have a say in how you live your life. If you are living your life with contempt for me then you choose NOT to accept my support. In MY book that goes for dependent children as well as COUNTRIES!!! 😉

  150. @Sarah,
    I don’t know why some things aren’t allowed, like gay marriage, polygamy, etc., in all US states except for possibly legal hassles and people in the US not wanting them. If you look up various studies online, the US is not always considered the freest country.

    I can’t comment too much on the mistress thing except that once I marry if I were to catch my husband with a mistress OR second wife, I really feel sorry for the guy. To prevent this from happening, I will do my best to choose wisely when choosing a husband.

    I believe that the majority of people in the US wouldn’t be okay with his/her marriage partner having a mistress OR being in a 2nd marriage.

    Thank you for asking such interesting questions and trying to understand others’ point of view!

  151. I don’t know anyone that thinks cheating on your partner is ok.

  152. @Lynn,
    Cheating. no. But there are people out there (swingers, for example) who have an understanding between him/herself and his/her partner(s) where they have sex with other people and the people in the relationship are okay with it. I think it’s completely immoral (not to mention potential negative long-term health implications), but if other people are okay with it, then it’s their business.

  153. Oh, right, Swingers and open relationships. Yeah, I guess some people enjoy that so, as long as they both agree and are happy with it then, whatever but I still wouldn’t go so far as to say that that is something that is ‘the norm’ or ‘accepted’ here.

    There is no doubt in my mind that there are Muslims in polygamous relationships in this country and I guess that is fine too as long as there is only one ‘legal’ wife but inheritance and that could be handled with wills I suppose.

  154. oh no inheritance even with wills is a mess with more than 1 wife,

    i know a dozen polygamous cases and 1 of them the guy died, even with a will his estate went into probate .. and this was a relative harmonious family but once e was gone the 1st wife refused to support the 2nd and she got his death benefits etall,,incl both houses . ughhh it was messy and ugly , the 2nd wife was out of status- since she let her student visa expire, couldn’t get a GC since husband had already sponsored the 1st .. god only knows how she registered her kids..

    i don’t know the details but she lived off charity for 4 months and then the group at the center was looking to find someone for her to marry, i’ve treated her once when she was sick and had no insurance , her husband knew F pretty well so she came to discuss this stuff a couple of times with him, well there’s not much anyone can do, I remember sh left the state to move to Minnesota or somewhere and is married to another guy as his 2nd wife — poor thing. I did tell her to go back to her home country and not risk the 2nd wife thing again , but then who listens to me 🙂

    so for the rest of us it may be fine if they are in a polygamous relationship, but legally here law recognizes 1 wife ONLY, so i would suggest anyone trying polygamy better bewell protected…the law recognized them as 1 man, his 1 wife and a mistress…

  155. So much for wanting for your sister…LOL

    She couldn’t have been from the Canton mosque or they’d have found a husband for her, they are REAL good at that there! lol

    The kids could have been legally registered as his without any legal problems but still, everything goes to the legal wife. If that woman hadn’t been here illegally then she would have been in a better position to fight for her kids at least and depending on their ages they could have gotten Social Security.

  156. oh my husband used to go to the canton mosque a long time ago adn then he switched ot the plymouthrd islamic center and then gave that one up too. too many issues. beyond fri prayer 🙂
    My daughter said the westbloomfield one was real nice — less bitchy women acc apparently and v non-judgemental, minding their own business type folks in WB i guess.

  157. @lynn – she was from canton mosque 🙂 maybe you know her !!!!
    I’ve heard it is harder for women to get that elusive GC , men can usually find some gullible 17 yr old to convert and provide themt he GC .Unfortunately not many 18yr old men can be conned into marriage for a GC, and by the time they are int heir mid-20’s even after converting they kid of shy away from the mosque throwing women at them, especially the 2nd wives with the added kids …. My friend tells me this is a big problem !!!
    whatever happened to the god old days of coming here as a student, sloggind, getting a job, slogging, getting a work visa, more slogging, and then getting a GC????

  158. ‘oh my husband used to go to the canton mosque a long time ago adn then he switched ot the plymouthrd islamic center and then gave that one up too’

    See? THAT’S what I’m talking about! If you do not approve of something at your place of worship then LEAVE it. If a questionable place still has lots and lots of dedicated worshipers attending then they MUST like what they are seeing and hearing there and could be judged accordingly. Am I wrong? If you can barely fill half of the place for major services (that’s when the money gets collected) then perhaps they need to find a new pastor/priest/rabbi/imam. But they don’t pass a basket in the mosque, do they? So how do they keep their lights on? hmmmm? I know there are membership dues but I can’t see how that could be enough.

  159. Men get accosted at the mosque to take wives? Is that what you are saying?

    I doubt that I would know that woman. My daughter might though. I usually only knew them if they were friends of my daughter or their moms. Your friend might know my daughter though 😉

    ‘whatever happened to the god old days of coming here ‘

    I know! My parents did it. My dad came first and got a couple or three jobs and saved and saved and saved until he could get settled and send for my mom and their 3 other kids(I didn’t come into the picture til #9). But perhaps I should look into how my dad’s uncle got here? hmmmm? I’ll look into that. lol

  160. Sarah and Sultan. You make a fine pair – the blind leading the deaf and dumb. You say you hate us because we are ignorant. You talk about the enemies of Islam. It is always the fault of the evil ignorant infidels, isn’t it.

    Why don’t you talk about your god, prophet and holy writ for once, based upon what they say instead of the fantasies you imagine? I will make it simple, with just 2 questions.

    1. Explain Quran 9:111 to me.

    2. Now explain this: Narrated Humaid: Anas bin Malik said, “Whenever the Prophet went out with us to fight (in Allah’s cause) against any nation, he never allowed us to attack till morning and he would wait and see: if he heard Adhan he would postpone the attack and if he did not hear Adhan he would attack them.” Anas added, “We reached Khaibar at night and in the morning when he did not hear the Adhan for the prayer, he (the Prophet ) rode and I rode behind Abi Talha and my foot was touching that of the Prophet. The inhabitants of Khaibar came out with their baskets and spades and when they saw the Prophet they shouted ‘Muhammad! By Allah, Muhammad and his army.’ When Allah’s Apostle saw them, he said, “Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.” (That is Bukhari, Book 11 – Call to Prayer, Verse 584). Consider that in terms of Quran 33:21if you will.

    You are the people that worship a brutal, torturing god (in case you have never read the Quran). You are the people that love a man that did so many evil things, which are easily found in page after page after page of your own writings. You are the people that discriminate, persecute and kill – as seen in almost every daily news broadcast and media report – including today in Indonesia.

    Yet you people blame others for everything and ignore your own vicious actions and dogma. Yes, Sultan, the ‘enemies of Islam’ are those that talk about these things. They don’t kill, plunder, rape or torture like Muslims or the accounts in the ahadith, but, to you, they are evil because they bring up issues from your own scriptures you prefer to ignore.

    Oh yes, Sultan, be very careful because of the “what kind of people are here” thing. People that tell the truth and say things that you don’t want to hear should be avoided at all costs (quran 5:101). Honesty, truth, facts and reality really don’t mix with your version of Islam.

    I can get along with Muslims just fine if they are honest about the Islamic dogma. The good Muslims know there are serious issues in their religion. They are not afraid of facts. They do not blame non-Muslims for everything. If I point out a verse that is despicable, they do not pretend it is just “a misunderstanding” or “bad translation”. They just live their lives and do not ignore or misrepresent facts.

    Yes, you two may want to leave. Open debate about islam or even Islamic culture is not for intractable bigots. This tread is about marriage and divorce, yet you pretend that Islam does not in any way denigrate women – even when I can point out passages in the Quran and hadith that say otherwise. I can even find texts that say that early Muslim women were beaten til black and blue by their husbands, the close followers of your prophet, and without any condemnation from your god and prophet. Even a quick exam of the Quran shows that women are basically absent – it is a book directed at the male followers of your prophet. Women are hardly mentioned and only one is named and your prophet didn’t even get his facts right about her.

    You can put me down as an “enemy of Islam” – Islam the dogma, Islam of the “I am made victorious with terror” type (recognize the quote?). As to individual Muslims, it depends on their values and morals. If killing is ok for some but not others, if plunder if fine for Joe but not Fred, if morality is relative – then I am not their friend. As to the Muslims that threatened to murder my family because of my words, I despise them and their ideology and those that share their mentality.

  161. Jay I saw this and thought of you:

    Kinda scary:

    Turkey grapples with spike in ‘honor’ killings

    “Government figures released in February suggest murders of women increased 14-fold in seven years, from 66 in 2002, to 953 in the first seven months of 2009. In the past seven months, one rights organization has compiled more than 264 cases – nearly one per day – reported in the press in which a woman was killed by a family member, husband, ex-husband, or partner.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110414/wl_csm/377137;_ylt=AsQCvafS9ZCtt7DtZqIVl0xvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJkc2Y4cWR1BGFzc2V0A2NzbS8yMDExMDQxNC8zNzcxMzcEcG9zAzM0BHNlYwN5bl9hcnRpY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDdHVya2V5Z3JhcHBs

  162. @Harry
    I have not heard the term ” triology” used in study of Islam;

    Listen, to be Muslim, as you very well know, is to submit to God, believe and follow in His Message, His Prophets, His Books …etc Total submission. Anyone who deviates from this teaching and call themselves Muslims with evil intentions are hypocrites and are enemies of Isla. However there are those who have diverted with their opinions, not with evil intentions. They may not be harming anyone but firmly belief in what their opinions. Not all of these opinions and differences are negative. They do not become enemies if their intention is not to kill off others. If they have misinterpreted the teachings then, isn’t it the duty of the ulemas to correct them?

    Having said that, any opinion that leads to making divisions and sectarianism is not all allowed in the Quran : “Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects -you, are not with them in anything. Their affair is only left to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do.”

    You said that are more than 72 sects presently but you must realise that some of these sects are same under different names. Some do follow strictly Quan and its teachings and give themselves a name. What those 72-73 sects are those that are too much deviated and yet they say that they follow the Book.

    Lynn,
    “Perhaps the ‘problem’ is the ‘book’ that is not clear?”
    Perhaps. Then it is the job of the followers to understand it properly if its not clear.

    “Wow, so if you have an enemy is that what you are supposed to do in return?”

    No this is what enemies generally do, don’t they? That is why they are called enemies. What did US do to its “enemies” in Iraq, Afghanistan ..etc. I was just responding to you when you quoted someone as saying enemies are friends in reverse. I was honestly thinking of what the zionists were doing when I was writing that.

    “Do you not think that some people ASSUME that people are their enemies just because they do not share the same beliefs?”

    Yes I do think think that but that is their unhealthy opinions. I don’t support that assumption.

    “Awww MAN!! I thought you were sane back when you said you thought I was ‘cute’ but now I have to question that”

    I still think you are cute but why do you assume that only sane people think you are cute 🙂 ?!

    Coolred,
    “wow…you just described Islamic extremists and how they view Dar al Harb”

    I was just describing the zionists and yes maybe some extremists behave that way in the name of Islam. Which again I do not support.

    Jay,
    You repeat youself with the same theme. And now you are asking me what you asked me before when I answered you detail. You ignored my response saying you wanted to discuss something else. – Sorry.

  163. I want to share this video, it has a brilliant quote: ”The problem isn’t fundamentalism, the only problems with Islamic fundamentalism, are the fundamentals of Islam”
    I really think Muslims need to have a good look at their own religion before labeling everybody who sees the flaws in their religion as ”enemies”.
    Muslims need to look at their religion, against the atrocities committed in the name of their religion, and change it.
    Muslims really need to stop blaming everybody else for their own problems.
    It is possible to sanitize a religion. Christianity does not have the power anymore to murder and torture millions, to subjugate women into a lesser lifeform. But Islam still has that power, and so it misuses it against humanity. It is up to the muslims themselves to sanitize their religion, but the first step is to stop whining and blaming others, the first step is to look at your religion and recognize where it fails.

  164. And this is valid for all religions: Extremism isn’t a problem if your core-believes are truly non-violent. The problem isn’t fundamentalism but the fundamentals …”

    I don’t think people should burn books, pwning them is way better and way more intelligent.
    And fun 😈
    Check out the winner of the 2011 musical pwnage Olimpics!

  165. Good night…may god be less? LMAO on that one.

  166. Aafke, the video was very enlightening! Thanks …

    Like you said it so eloquently quoting from the video: And this is valid for all religions: Extremism isn’t a problem if your core-believes are truly non-violent. The problem isn’t fundamentalism but the fundamentals …”

    That sez it all and sums it up all beautifully!

  167. what an great topic to read!
    well, i am 23, i started discussing such topics with my parents when i was 16, of course at that time we were discussing other family marriages -not me LOL –
    i totally didn’t like the fact that some guy’s mom gonna come knocking my parents door asking them to marry me to their boy. it seemed to me that it is a very absurd idea, not me nuh uh !

    i have grown older and little wiser now, going to med school and seeing my friends crushing on this guy or that, an idea came to my head of just observing the outcome of such shyly starting relationships, some crushes developed to be a long standing successful relationships with marriages only few months away, some turned out to be nothing , and the others failed with major heartbreaks, something my friends never witnessed before.

    i honestly done like the idea of being engaged to someone you dont know for the sake of traditions- even though you will get to know him/her eventually-, at the same time same time it worked better than now for years and years, my only concern is that even choosing your life partner might lead to higher failure rates than the traditional way .
    but at the end of the day, i would go 100% with the non traditional way starting my own tradition 😉

    p.s i havent visited your blog since 2009 ! one of your topics crossed my mind this morning so i decided to google you again! coming back to read feels like seeing an old friend again !

  168. Jenna,

    Men in the US are catching on… by not getting married! You seemed to suggest that they were divorcing less.

    The divorce rates are lower amongst the few men that do get married. I feel your thoughts and thinking are part of the problems of the new way women think. I agree with Naeem that young men are also immature, especially Saudis. They have a hollywood fascination with women and relationships.

    Its not just the women or just the men. Its both. Grow up people or the next generation will be even worse.

    Return to your grassroots, escape materialism. Saudi men cant expect their women to behave a certain way and at the same time they get to do everything they want.

    And Saudi women should remain true to their cultural traditions even with advancing degrees.

  169. I am not quite sure what you mean by ”çultural traditions”, You mean the recent cultural traditions in Saudi when women are not even legal entities and cannot act for themselves?
    Or do you want to go back further in time, to say, the time of the prophet when we know from the narrated stories that men and women divorced quite a lot quite happily and found another partner and married again quite happily. Because that seems very reasonable to me, if you can’t get on with your partner you divorce and find somebody better suited to you.

  170. What do you mean by “quite a lot”? rates of 50% like in the US? 25%?

    Divorce is halal in Islam, but its also the most hated halal act in the eyes of Allah SWT as told to us by our scholars.

    There is something wrong in society. You speak as if though increasing divorce rates are reflective of the “good old days” of Islam. Id like to go back further in Islamic history as you suggest, but lets practice all of it, not just the increased divorce rates.

    I would suggest the opposite is true. Its not more islamic to get a divorce. Its a distancing from Islamic character for both the men and women thats leading to this nonsense and the primary role is the materialistic culture we live in. Women and their ambitions and lack of fullfillment outside of the home and lack of “putting up” witht men now and men with their distorted desires and characterizations of what women should be like.

    This generation from the last generation is no doubt worse.

    Always view divorce as the worst of the halal and you are better off.

    Not just the “allowed”.

    We all understand there are couples that just wont ever get along, but a lot of that has to do with our new environments poinsoning not just our marital lives but our outlook for our akhirat.

  171. I don’t think there’s any need to marry at all anyway. Especially not when there’s such unequal misogynist rules pertaining to marriage like in Islam. Much better to have some secular laws and rules and people can do what they like, get married, get a contract, or just co-habit. Whatever.
    But of course I don’t mind if people want to get married either.

    And btw, the blog is about Saudi Arabia, not about America. If you want to talk about America you need to go to a blog which has America as it’s theme.

  172. @Afke

    My orginal post was responding to a comment made by Jenna about american divorces hence bringing up statistics in the US. Why do you have the right to selectively moderate my comments?

    I think you need help @afke. I dont think you are here for any discussion other than to push your own agenda.

    Reading through your posts you seem to have some psychiatric instabilities.

  173. I’m not moderating anything, not my turn for moderating.
    But I notice you are resorting to name calling, which is proof of you having no arguments, proof of weakness.

  174. @Omar,
    The meaning of “traditional” is different depending on what generation of the past you are referring to. For instance, the lifestyle most Americans refer to when citing “traditional American lifestyle” including gender roles is that of the 1950s. If you went back a century or two before that, there were multiple generations living in the same home. Of course, the great depression of the 1920s changed that. What generation of Saudi Arabia are you referring to when you say “traditional”?

    I don’t think Aafke is pushing an agenda; just giving her opinion.

    I, for one, would love for Saudi Arabia to re-embrace some of the values during the time of the prophet where women owned and ran businesses along trade routes, fought alongside their men, and were seen as beautiful, yet strong. Of course, women can own businesses, fight alongside men and are respected while also being protected in the US…hmm….

  175. @starngeone

    I refer to traditional as Islamic as represented in ur comments. I do agree that current womens rights are lacking in saudia arabia.

    On the other hand, in America its the opposite extreme. Womens rights have usurped mens.

    @afke. Im allowed to call u out a little. Reading through ur posts (and u have plenty) shows a lot about ur personality. Im a doctor, and so allowed to diagnose but i realize it was an over reaction.

    Please dont tell me what to and what not to talk about. U did selectively comment on my comments when mine were a response to jennas.

    And ur comments show an agenda.

  176. Women’s rights have usurped men’s in the US?? Please give ANY evidence of that.

  177. Omar you are clueless, women in the civilized countries of the world have rights, equal rights.
    And women still have to deal with antiquated unfair social relics which prefer men over women.

    Hmmm… diagnosing people over the internet? Sounds like what a witchdoctor would do.

  178. Clueless?

    Born an American raised in AMERICA. Im proud of a lot of our right and freedoms.

    Not happy with the womens movement. Destroyed the family.

    For one many american men dont want to marry american women who dont work. Major reason, divorce and what happens to men who dont work.

    Get half your assets and almost always get primary custody of the children.

    Islamically and in most religions the children remain under the protection and care of the father. The Creator knows best.

    Anyhow, @aafke can have all the opinions she/he likes. Next generation is more messed up than the last and its a phenomenon that will continue.

  179. Correction: typing from iphone

    Divorce, and what happens to men whose x-wives dont work

  180. Omar, on July 1, 2013 at 11:42 am said: Born an American raised in AMERICA. Im proud of a lot of our right and freedoms …

    Bbbbutt … one can take a Saudi out of Arabia bbbbutt one cannot take Arabia out of a Saudi :)-

  181. Btw, im not arab. I am muslim and living in Saudi.

    In terms of divorce rates going up, i put more blame here on saudi men then women from what i see in my limited scope.

    In general however, i think both parties are too blame.

  182. Feminism, women’s liberation …etc were made to break up families. It was a hoax that many women fell for and are falling for. Women have readily accepted the role of sex objects. Women’s liberation was funded by the evil people – yes the Rockfellers admitted to it.

    Aaron Russo in his interview (available in YouTube) says, the two key reasons given by Nicholas Rockefeller (in creating women’s liberation were: “Before women’s lib we couldn’t tax half of the population” and “Can indoctrinate kids in school at early ages. When there is no male figure in the family, kids start seeing the State as their family who provide and protect”. Russo goes on to say that they created women’s liberation using mass media control as part of a long-term plan to enslave humanity.

    Ex CIA agent and American feminist icon Gloria Steinem claims that CIA funded Ms Magazine with the stated goal of breaking up the families and taxing women.

    It is the same with sexual liberation and promotion of homosexuals. It is all done to deteriorate and corrupt the society and they are succeeding because fools fall for it. America is now facing the result of so called women’s liberation.

  183. Omar,

    You say that, Islamically speaking, the custody in most situations is awarded to the father. I am not going to ask you about how many countries or whoever agree with you. I am going to ask you what gave you the impression that in Islam itself custody is most often awarded to the father. Evidence to support your claim would be appreciated.

    As to the women’s liberation thing, I apologize, Sarah, but all of the “Nicholas Rockefeller” stuff is complete nonsense. Please do not take this the wrong way, but:

    Try to research the man–you fill find that his name is nothing but fodder for conspiracy theorists. Women’s liberation was a steady movement with many different people throughout time as figureheads, and was the work of common women and like-minded men for the most part.

    I know you mean well, but be careful: do not fall for this silly bait that will have you believing that the idea of equal rights for women was manufactured in some shadowy back room of a powerful, corrupt organization’s secret hideout as a method for unraveling the moral fabric of America. Just the slightest bit of research into any of the evidence that you have cited shows you that nothing substantial will come up. It doesn’t matter how many people stand up and claim that they’ve spoken to someone who may not have even existed, much less had influence in high places, on youtube, or state similar opinions in blogs or magazines. Gossip and youtube videos, or un-cited conspiracy theory articles are not a good way to determine the truth. And, indeed, the whole concept defies logic either way.

    If you are interested in the true progression of women’s liberation, you will find that it was not a seed suddenly planted in the brain of Americans by some secret and powerful figures, but a movement that began and progressed slowly, often championed by common women and like-minded men, long before America was even a superpower, and occurred in different places throughout the world. Whether or not you agree with the idea of women’s liberation, you do not need to listen to those who try to rewrite history to support their opinions.

  184. TE,
    I don’t mean it any bad way, but Rockfeller is well-known stuff. I really think that you should read about it. It is not only about that one man, it is a whole sinister system that is set up to destroy the society.

    Yes I agree that women’s lib was something that progressed slowly and that is how it was planned to be. There is enough evidence to show that it was a plan. It is not a gossip or some random concept.

    However, even if you do not accept that, do you think that that liberation worked for the better of the society? Do you accept women to be portrayed as sex objects? Do you accept that families are breaking up because of this liberation?

  185. #oh Sarah, do you really believe that CIA planned to break up the american society ? you don’t know anything of CIA in the 60’ties.

    Mass divorce is a result of urbanization, and the break up of kinship ties. If you look at the discussion in western Europe in the early part of last century, there is no difference between conservatives and some muslims today. But all they can do is to cry.

    This has nothing to do with belief or ideology, but with human nature.
    And Saudi Arabia in case can’t afford to to fund a society which is out of sync with the economic expectations of it’s citizens.

  186. Sorry Neil but that is my thinking and I believe in it. I really do. Of course it is natural for you not to and you have your opinions. I respect that.

  187. Sarah,

    Do not worry, I am very familiar with the Rockefellers. However, as I said, a simple bit of research will show you that there is no evidence–none whatsoever–to show that a “Nick,” “Nicholas,” or even, if you want to get fancy and Russian, “Nicholai” Rockefeller ever existed in the famous family. At all. So the cornerstone of many of your arguments here seem to be that Aaron Russo claimed to have been buddies with him and learned all of this secret information. That’s good and well. I, too, could say that I was friends with–I don’t know–Marcus Rothschild, and he told me that 9/11 was going to happen, or that the Sandy Hook shooting was going to happen, or whatever X that suits my political agenda was going to happen before it actually occurred.

    Russo was an entertainer and a filmmaker with a political agenda, and this can be easily found. His political views of America are well-documented and often bordering on paranoid and insane. He made a video like this to try to support his political ideologies, and he made it very badly by choosing some name that there is no public record of existing, hoping that the name “Rockefeller” will be powerful and confusing enough to get some followers behind him. As a result, you will see that almost no one has paid this any attention, because it is transparent conspiracy theory nonsense. The only people who feel like it is of substance are the ones who subscribe to conspiracy theories to begin with.

    Again, I implore you to research it a little. You will find that you will come up with no proof. Nothing. Just more gossip and paranoid people saying, “I knew it!”

    Once again, I mean you no offense! If you just look at the video and the ramblings youtube comments, or go to conspiracy theory blogs and read their unsubstantiated claims, I admit that it might be convincing. But, again, I think you’re smarter than that, so I hope you decide to do some more research and see what you can come up with that has any real truth to it. If you prefer not to, it is up to you, but I have enjoyed reading your comments so far, and, as I said, I think you’re better than this!

    TE

  188. TE, im curious. Whats your take on 911?. Do you still believe its not a conspiracy?

    Its my personal litmus test for people. You have a lot of intelligence, sound persuasive, and i want to give you the benefit of the doubt and address your misconception about the womens lib movement and whatever else you have said towards Sarah.

    But over time i have found…. some who want a genuine discussion and others who dont. Im not saying im absolutely right about this, but those who cast 911 deniers into a conspiracy bubble are usually part of the conspiracy. They have an agenda. 🙂

    So whats your take on 911?

    Inside job?

    or

    as told by mainstream media?

    In regards to Islam and custody of children. You can google and review the islamic rulings amongst the different schools of thought, but in general, young children remain with the mother unless she remarries. Once older, they remain with the father. The rulings are backed up by evidence from the life of the Prophet PBUH and his sayings.

    There are always exceptions to the rule in case the father is not fit or the mother is not fit to have kids etc…

    Just about a hundred years ago in America, men uniformly got custody of the children.

    Curiously in Saudi, I have seen women divorced and the men abandon their children! This is completely unlawful and extremely sinful.

  189. TE,

    I know we are going way off topic but this kinda helps explain where you are coming from.

    I guess what I am trying to ask….

    “Once again, I mean you no offense! If you just look at the video and the ramblings youtube comments, or go to conspiracy theory blogs and read their unsubstantiated claims, I admit that it might be convincing. But, again, I think you’re smarter than that, so I hope you decide to do some more research and see what you can come up with that has any real truth to it. If you prefer not to, it is up to you, but I have enjoyed reading your comments so far, and, as I said, I think you’re better than this!”

    Does this apply to 911 inside job claims also?

  190. Sarah,

    Oh, sorry, in my excitement I forgot to answer your questions!

    I actually take the same approach to women’s liberation as I do to Islam. People come up to me all the time and ask me how I could possibly support this terrible, awful religion that opens the door to hatred and killing and violence and misogyny, and so on and so forth.

    Now, you and I both feel a completely different way about Islam. And you and I both know it is possible (and, indeed, the correct way to use Islam) to be Muslim and not to support this senseless violence. Just because there are some negative effects with how Islam is being used in the world today does not mean that Islam itself is evil.

    Similarly, even if there are negative consequences to women’s liberation, that does not mean that women’s liberation is the enemy. There are many things that go into an unstable western family, and, having come from a western family, known almost only western families for most of my life, let me assure you: there are far more beautiful, successful, moral and loving families than we see when we look around at the worst of the state of children and women today.

    The difference between a successful, respectable, decent family and moral upbringing in America and one that is chaotic and bad for the children and so on is not whether or not the mother/wife works or believes herself equal. There are busy wives and mothers who have raised beautiful families. There is more to what goes into the moral upbringing of the children than this.

    So perhaps some bad things seem to have come with women’s liberation, just like some violence has come with Islam. What is the answer? Not the simple one. Not to vilify Islam or women’s liberation. But to seek out the true evils of the story and address them–and them only. Do not cut out more of the flesh than you need to cure a diseased part of a body.

    Finally, speaking of Islam, consider the rights that are afforded to women under its rule. Remember Khadijah, the Prophet’s powerful merchant wife. The answer should be clear.

  191. Omar,

    Ha, your flattery is very clever, as is the warning that failure to side with you will have me fail your person litmus test, but I am afraid I must disagree with you.

    I have found that almost all of the evidence that is presented to me by the hoax side of the argument was, after some research, not credible or substantial, even though it sounded really persuasive and a nice idea when I was watching the hoax videos or reading people’s theories.

    I will say to both you and Sarah and whoever else is interested: if you are willing to sit down with me and bring to me what you believe is actual, truthful evidence, and you are willing to discuss (without bias and with the sole intention of seeking the truth) whether or not that claim is credible, I have no qualms, and would approach it with an open mind and the willingness to be proved wrong–if your proofs deserve it. If not, I am sorry. There are things I simply cannot accept on the basis of “it makes sense and look at all this stuff I heard.”

    So, in short, I have an open mind on the subject, but any and all evidence that has been given to me so far I have found to have flaws or be just outright fabrication.

    Anyway, regarding the custody thing, as I said, I am not interested in rulings of people or countries, but Islam. I meant hadiths or portions of the Quran. That is Islam, is it not? Countries and fatwas are, at best, educated guesses about what God wants. Thank you for trying, but I would prefer you to show me something credible where he tells us for Himself, or at least a strong hadith that makes your point clear. If you do not have time, I understand.

    TE

  192. #Sarah, okay. But the discussions about divorce in the western world started a long time before anybody had thought of the CIA. That’s a fact, and has nothing to do with belief. –

  193. Aha! got you! suckeeeerrrrrrr!

  194. Omar,

    Is that for me?

    If so, that’s a little bit confusing, but if you are talking about having led me into a logical trap I must say that it does not much feel like defeat when your victory cry for whatever it is you’ve done is sucker with four e’s. I await a longer and more intelligent response if you have it in you!

  195. ok ok. TE. Listen, lets forget womens lib, islam, and everything else you talk about for a moment. 911 is so important to our current era its worth the attention.

    911 is so absolutely done as an inside job. You must seriously be living on another planet to say you have no doubts about the official story! And you put down Sarah?. COME ON. I expect a lot better than that! The majority of evidence presented is false? Where as you may be truthful in the statements of the majority of evidence being false (There is lots of false evidence put out there by disinfo agents) I feel you are being dishonest……

    well you never really stated your views…. You said most info out there false (I agree) but what about it being an inside job?

    Its like night and day. The establishment spinsters are so tired of defending 911 now. They get caught red handed with their hand in the cookie jar. And it looks like you are about to also.

    TE, lets start with something really basic. Go on youtube, and view the videos of WTC 7 falling. You do not think thats a demolition? I expect an intelligent answer.

    In regards to giving you evidence about custody in Islam, why dont you just google it? its everywhere. And there are different opinions in the different schools, i gave you just the jist.

    Omar

  196. actually my spelling is horrible. and its meant to be sounded out…. succcckkkkkkeeeeeeerrrr

  197. And no, i dont have it in me to prove 911 is an inside job with a bunch of factoids. go google it.

    My point of you declaring your view point was to let everyone know how unintelligent you really are. Stop picking on Sarah. Cause majority of the world TE, already knows somethings wrong with the official story even if they cannot bring themselves to fully admit it was an inside job. You TE, cant even admit that. You came out in vociferous defense, which probably goes with my original litmus test results, you have an agenda.

    I like people like you to declare yourself so the masses dont have to entertain your other verbose counterarguments on other topics. You really are not that intelligent!

    Go google Islam and custody also. Basically our Creator ordained that men should be raising the children when older when couples divorce.

  198. Omar,

    Hahah, as I said in the beginning, I am willing to sit down and have a logical discussion of the matter with someone who is ready for intelligent and open-minded debate. By the haughty, unorganized way you are speaking, it is clear that you are prepared for neither.

    You are the one with the burden of proof in this case. To me, no, that does not look like it must be a demolition. Now, I am not the one who is coming to you and saying, “Therefore, it can’t be a demolition, because this is what my eyes tell me.” You are the one coming to me and saying, “It has to be a demolition, because that’s just what it looks like.”

    So, if you wish to make your case, go ahead and present it. Are you the same Omar who claims to be a doctor? You must know that the way something looks is not sufficient enough for a diagnosis. So go ahead and give me your indisputable evidence that that must be a demolition. But, preferably, take it over to the debate page. I will find your reply there. Good luck, my friend.

    And I see, so you do not have any evidence for this and you rely on the gist? It is true; the Creator knows best, and he has left us actual proof that us Muslims accept in the matter, and that is the word of the Quran, and, arguably, some hadiths. I am well familiar with the custody laws. Just like I am with the demolition thing, I am offering you the chance to give me proof to support your claims. I will give you one more chance to present them before I disregard this conversation, as I have no interest in going in circles with someone who is unwilling to engage in a civil manner.

    TE

    P.S.

    To clarify to all (especially Sarah)–I do not mean to put down Sarah! Unlike you, I am serious when I compliment someone, and I do enjoy her opinions but I wish that she’d look into the Nick Rockefeller thing.

  199. I see, you’ve already responded!

    I hate to detract from your celebration, but I would not come onto the internet, where any insane, uneducated, unintelligent person of any age could come and say whatever nonsense they’d like if I were even a little bit troubled by run-ins with the occasional troll!

    Continue, Omar, and say as many insults as you would like, and add as many extra letters into the mix as your heart desires!

    TE

  200. TE:

    Case closed.

    Like I said, majority of the world already knows there is something wrong with the official story. You cant seem to admit even that. My only point was to expose your flawed thinking, not to completely debate 911 here. I dont want to regurgitate facts you can google.

    1.) Do you believe the official story?

    2.) Do you have doubts about the official story?

    Can you bring yourself to say you have at least doubts TE?

    WTC 7. What do you think made it fall? No plane hit it. You think fire alone brought it down? It falls like a demolition and if you see it with an open mind perhaps you will bring yourself to the same conclusion majority of the world already has. But i dont think you will. I think my original litmus test is true.

    My logic in the debate goes as following.

    TE trys to make neat sounding rebuttals to Sarah. Puts her down for falling prey to conspiracy nuts… exposing him/herself as a fraudster in the end by not even admitting doubts about the official 911 story.

    yes TE, we know that a lot of the nonsense outthere about 911 is by disinfo agents trapping people into hyperventilating incoherent sounding arguments.

    But in the end truth prevails and people still dont trust the official story.

    You shouldnt either by now.

  201. Omar, I feel for you. It must be galling to be pwned.
    One should realize: people who cannot support their opinions with rational factual arguments, but instead drop down to the level of personal insults will inevitably get pwned .

  202. Where is the debate page? and yes im an eye surgeon.

  203. Hahaha, Aafke, you are wonderful.

  204. Listen Aafke, litmus test for you.

    whats your take on 911?

    Any doubts about the official story?

  205. Just want to expose your intelligence as TE’s was exposed.

  206. I think you guys are both likely fraudsters if you cannot bring yourself… at least admit to yourself there are doubts about the official story?

    Come on people?

  207. See, Omar, Aafke is a great example. I think she and I don’t agree all the time, but she is nothing if not logical, and it is a pleasure to argue with her the few times I’ve had the opportunity.

    Even if I don’t agree in the end, I always have something new to think about when I read Aafke’s arguments. You could learn a thing or two from her.

  208. And Aafke, you have yet to feel the exhilarating feeling of being on the side of truth. I invite you both to Islam, to experience it. And to openly call others to the truth. What a wonderful, truly liberating feeling.

  209. Omar, I am Muslim already, but thank you for the invitation.

  210. Oh nice. Are you calling people to Islam also? Fantastic!

  211. TE, spend a few hours on 911. It really will open up a new world to you. You will see the official story is full of nonsense. whats scary is how deep the rabbit hole goes…

    anyways, i still stand by using 911 to let everyone appreciate your intelligence. If you cannot admit doubts on 911 TE, im sure the masses reading this will question your other arguments inshallah.

  212. Omar,

    Not to the Islam where men are supposed to usually get custody! I would save your applause for my contribution if that is the Islam you believe in.

    But I was not aware that you still wanted to talk to me about 9/11! What are you doing still bothering yourself with me? My dear troll, you’ve won! You’ve decided yourself the victor of this conversation, so move on! You have other battles to declare yourself the winner of, other people to decide you are the logical champion over! Go forth, sweet troll, and conquer more people with your elongated insults. God speed, my friend!

  213. @TE

    Since you are muslim and refused to use the power of google to look up some of the fiqh answers regarding cutody, here is one from the Hanafi school of thought.

    http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=12&ID=168&CATE=11

    I dont know about the other school honestly. But you can google them.

    They are all about the same in regards to this from what i understand.

  214. Thanks for the link. As a Muslim, my Islam is from the Quran and well-sourced, logical hadiths that do not conflict with the Quran. If you are comfortable trying to say that the Hanafi school of thought speaks for God, that’s your call.

    You should use that wonderful power of Google you speak of to look through the hadiths and the Quran to find enough evidence to drown in that women’s custody is preferred.

  215. Anyway, I think divorce will be more prevalent in any society when there’s less stigma in being divorced an when there are good, fair and decent rules regulating divorce.
    I also think that in a country like Saudi Arabia, (this blog is about Saudi Arabia, not other countries) where women are officially non-adults and dependents, with no legal status, the current gain in human rights for women, the increase in job opportunities, and hopefully eventually a normal freedom of movement and driving their own cars, will most probably increase the already high divorce rates.

    It is much easier for a woman to decide she wants to have a divorce when she is independent and makes her own money. The actual making of one’s own money gives one a great boost in self worth as well.
    If women could get custody over their own children that would increase their freedom to choose to stay in a marriage or not, even more.

    Now, of course a marriage doesn’t need to end in divorce. When a marriage is a partnership, when both participants are honest and loving and respectful towards the other, a marriage usually stays intact.

    So even if a woman does have her human rights, freedom of movement and her own money and independence, this doesn’t make divorce inevitable, when the man is a real man he should have no problems in keeping the marriage intact and successful.

  216. Aafke,

    Good point. I always thought that if I were a Saudi woman, I would probably never get divorced because of the high social and financial cost. As an American, if I ever cease to love or feel safe or comfortable with my husband, I can leave him and Saudi Arabia behind and remarry with ease (although children would definitely complicate matters if we ever have any). For Saudi women, the stigma makes it a difficult decision to make, even if the relationship is unhappy.

    To attribute low divorce rates to the morality of a country is a mistake. It is far more complicated than that.

  217. Like I said TE. 911 litmus test for intelligence.

    Anyhow, i guess you are welcome to try to hash out your own religion… as for me i trust these answers were solved many years ago by people much better than myself. I suppose you think you are closer to the truth now than the muslims scholars of past? You know all the hadith and rules for deriving rulings?

    You go to a doctor right? to get your eyeglasses medicine etc?

    Well religion is no different when it comes to rulings. leave it to the experts, no need to rehash everything on subjects already discussed.

    If you are one of those types that needs hadith as proof… this time google that too if you like. The rulings are backed up by proofs and sayings from our Prophet PBUH. Anyhow, its not for us to analyze the different hadith and come up with rulings on our own, leave it to the experts and may Allah SWT forgive me if I have misquoted.

  218. Aha, you trust that people you’ve never met know the answers for things so that you don’t have to think about it, even if the evidence (in this case, hadiths, so I don’t know where your last paragraph came from) is within your grasp. You don’t say!

    Really, what are you still doing with me? Omar, there are bigger fish to fry! Other people out there that you haven’t had the opportunity to declare victory over! More words to stretch into oblivion! Time is wasting, and it is clear you have many more people to decide you are superior to! Countless more specimens for your 9/11 Litmus Test for Intelligence! If you wish to spend your time with me, I will be happily entertained by your efforts, but I hate to see such talent go to waste.

  219. TE, and I think that knowing there is ”a way out” doesn’t actually precipitate a divorce if times get rough, on the contrary, it postpones the decision because you know you have that option. It gives one peace of mind.

    Omar, I agree in so far that one’s willingness to believe in really crazy conspiracy theories, on whatever subject, is a kind of pointer towards ones personality type.
    And rationality.

  220. Aafke,

    Perhaps so. I suppose I just think of it from my perspective. I would not be the sort of Saudi woman who would divorce just because of unhappiness, but I am exactly that sort of Western woman. I admire any Saudi woman who is brave enough to divorce, either way.

  221. So Aafke,

    Whats your take on the subject of 911?

    I actually think the opposite. People who believe there are no problems with the official story are of a certain personality type. Either of very low IQ or with an agenda.

    With yours Aafke, I lean towards agenda. You may take that as a compliment… but let me assure you aafke, the sweetness of being on the side of truth is a lot greater.

    TE, im just not sure.

    Let the masses decide. Im not here to convince you Aafke, just to show people you really are not that smart.

  222. If that is your goal, you are doing a fantastically poor job.

  223. according to who? you trolls?

  224. Aha, I apologize. I used that word with you without providing you with the definition.

    Anyway, I am on my way out for the day, but I will be sure to return to see which other powerful thoughts and insults come out of your brilliant mind when I get the time. I am sure they will be intelligent and profound.

  225. TE and Omar…
    Quote: I invite you both to Islam, to experience it. And to openly call others to the truth. What a wonderful, truly liberating feeling.

    Ahhhhh, but we non-Muslims experience Islam everyday… as we read about it in the papers – the killing and violence (perhaps you have noticed…). Yesterday, coming back from Brazil, I experienced the blessing of islam with an extended search at the airport. We experience Islam as we read about football spectators in Iraque, dozens of people in mosques in Pakistan, and even Shia in Egypt experiencing Islam yesterday as they bled all over the ground. A Catholic priest in Syria experienced it last week when he was beheaded. Now backpacks at public events are subject to search — another shared experience we owe to Islam. And so on.

    When will Muslims take responsibility for the hate and violence they do, that emanates directly from the pages of the hadith and Quran? (and which I doubt either of you have read except in filter mode).

    So, guys, instead of silly, meaningless words about the “wonderfulness” of Islam that have absolutely no basis in reality,or abstract discussions of fantasy about hadith and 911, I would suggest that you both stick to the subject of divorce (not that you, me or we are going to made any difference in the complex matter of marital bonds, which is unique and can only be somewhat understood by those directly involved, and to which there is no solution).

    Thank you

    Jay

    PS: Killing people is not really very liberating, even if it seems that there is no mandate more clearly extolled in the Quran than that of extinguishing fellow humanity for the glory of Allah and your dear prophet.

  226. Omar, on July 1, 2013 at 6:30 pm said: according to who? you trolls?

    actually, the definition of “troll” fits you perfectly:

    What makes an Internet troll tick? In a word – disinhibition. The linked article below illustrates how anonymity contributes to the online disinhibition effect, illuminating the psyche of the these anonymous troublemakers.

    We all behave differently when alone. Anonymity frees us from a perceived obligation to act in accordance with certain social norms. For example, most people refrain from picking their nose in public, but dig with abandon when alone.

    This isn’t revelatory – fear of judgment is a powerful motivator and is well documented by psychologists. So, while most of our anonymous behavior is relatively benign, what happens when it isn’t?

    Read On, Omar …

    http://academicearth.org/electives/psychology-internet-troll/

  227. Okay. Got a break already.

    Jay,

    Firstly, I was not the one trying to preach about Islam. I think the only thing I called wonderful in this post was the power of Google. Also, I would agree, despite what I feel for my religion, I would not call it liberating, exactly.

    Anyway, when I first read the Quran it was during my last couple years as an atheist, so I would hope my filters weren’t already on then. I don’t agree with what you’ve said, but I definitely find all the examples you provided to support your opinion very refreshing.

    If you’re interested, you can tell me the passages of the Quran that you think I am missing that condone all of those events respectively in the debate page, and I will give them their due and honest consideration. If you prefer not to, that’s fine.

    Also, I do think that the subject of whether or not Islamic law allows for custody to go to the man in a divorce is quite pertinent to the subject of divorce in this Islamic country, but I understand that Omar and I definitely deviated far from the topic in one way or another.

    TE

    P.S.

    Moe Bandy, that was quite interesting. It reminds me of an experiment I read about years ago. If I remember correctly, they found that if even a cartoon representation of a pair of eyes were pinned near unattended objects, they were stolen much less frequently and people behaved in a more socially acceptable way around them.

  228. Omar, About inviting me to experience Islam, I am a Pastafarian, I have been touched by His Noodly Appendage, The FSM, the One who really created the universe.

    I know true beauty and true freedom as a pirate, worshiping the FSM.

    I would like to invite you to the truth, go to Amazon and get the gospel of the FSM as revealed to the one true prophet, Robbie Henderson (PBUHP)

  229. Ahh Moe. Or perhaps its Aafke?

    As of now ive used my correct name and my correct specialty and correct country of practice. Anyhow.

    I dont pretend to be female or muslim or whatever as Aafke does.

    Nor do i hide my beliefs while secretly coming to website with alternative agendas.

    Come on Moe?

    911 litmus test?

    Ready to take it?

    Something wrong with official story?

  230. And ahh Jay,

    I invite all readers of these blogs to invite these commenters to the 911 litmus test.

    Those who deny anything wrong with the official story are here with an agenda. Call them out and move on brothers and sisters

  231. Ahh Moe. Or perhaps its Aafke?

    Brilliant, another conspiracy theory…
    Definitely the ”litmus test” for sanity.

    😈

  232. TE, interesting about the eyes thing!

  233. Aafke,

    Yes, and I am sure he has a million more. I expect nothing less of a man who thought that his credentials as an eye surgeon allowed him to give you a psychiatric evaluation and diagnosis over the internet!

  234. Oh, I forgot to add:

    Isn’t it? I am trying to find that experiment again. I laughed when I first heard it, but then I started thinking that it would probably affect me, too. Just the suggestion that someone may be watching you is enough to influence behavior, I guess.

  235. Or you could use it to your advantage sometimes. You never know.
    Where I live in the Netherlands people sell stuff by the roadside by the honor system, It seems to work because everybody keeps doing it, I buy apples and honey and eggs myself from the several offerings, I buy the honey for friends as well.
    But if anybody had doubts they could paint a couple of eyes on the stall!

    Yes, I was impressed that an optician is capable of giving a comprehensive psychiatric diagnosis by reading up on a few comments on a forum. That can mean only one of two things, either one must be an amazing genius with magical powers, or…. one is seriously deluded about one’s capacities and science, and medicine, and psychiatry, and reality.

  236. TE,
    I am interested to know your theory about the Rockefeller family? What are your evidences for what you say? What is the evidence that Nick does not exist? How about Russo? If Nick does not exist, does it mean that there is no deception? Is it only about him? What does it matter if Russo was an entertainer? You say his political views are documented but then so are his other views and views of other people. What does that prove?

    TE, there are expert people out there who have done thorough professional research on the fraud of 911 and many other deceptions. I urge you not to look at the surface. Read between the lines, observe body languages, facial expressions, slips ups (explosives were mentioned about 911 by the president), eye contacts … its all too obvious. Watch out for patterns of behavior. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to separate truth from deception. Do not go for how it looks. It is easy to brush aside the truth because its too scary to believe that the nice safe cocoon was never really that cozy. Just because you cannot or will not see the reasons behind the actions, does not mean that they do not exist and I say these with all due respect to you, TE. I know you seem like a nice innocent person.

    Women’s liberation is a creation by people. Islam has given women her rights – all others are man-made which is made to look for the betterment of the world but in reality its the opposite . You can look around you and be a better judge. This so called liberation was created to break up families and create havoc to the society and so it has. I lived in a community where women took their God-given rights and lived peacefully until a British women (wife of a politician) visited for the sole purpose of breaking the society and gave long speeches about women’s lib. The result? Women started going out for meetings, to organizations set up to “liberate” women. Women stayed out whole day, returned home late. Husbands were alone with the maids. What is the further result? Yes you said it, break up of families and anger, and damages, kids on drugs, kids on the streets, muggings …etc. This is a clear live example that I have witnessed. It happened so fast. Yes you can say that this is modern phenomena, all societies eventually get broken up. But that’s how you will see if you look on the surface. You see this as development, urban thing or whatever … please do not fool yourself.

    Men and women are created equal but with different roles. They compliment each other. One cannot defy nature and make them equal no matter how hard they try. It does not work that way. Besides, if you are a woman, be a woman, do not try to be a man and vice versa.

    By the way, women’s lib is not the only area that is targeted. Watch carefully what your kids watch on TV, especially cartoons and what your teenaged kids listen to, to what is called “music”. You will be shocked if you look at things only on the surface.

    Nice debating with you, TE.

  237. “But if anybody had doubts they could paint a couple of eyes on the stall!”

    Or ONE eye!

  238. I am sorry, TE, if I missunderstood, or offended you, or kicked Copacabana beach sand in your face. I’m getting old and I have a chip on my shoulder, one that gets real mean when the issue is Islam and any topic including such words as peace, perfection, wonderful, and so on… You take care.

    I am happy to report that the preparations for the World Cup are coming along nicely. Brazil will be ready. They are doing nice work on the Orla (beach) in Rio and it was fun just to sit in the Queirosque with a caipirinha and watch the vendors and all the fitness fanatics doing their thing. Few girls in bikinis.

    I saw only one demonstration, of about 2k people, but very quiet and orderly. There were a lot of families in the crowd. It was very different from the demonstrations in the 1980s (yelling ‘Abaixo a ditadura’ with tear gas floating in the air). Been there, done that.

    Good for the Brazilian people. Good for the Turkish people, too. God help (or in the case of AA, Pasta help) the Egyptian people. So when are we, Americans, going to take to the streets? When are the Saudis going to mobilize for their rights and a piece of the oil pie?

    Signing off, the AmBedu foreign correspondent in Brazil and Arizona… Jay

    PS: I really miss Carol.

  239. We gather what history we can and refer appropriately

    And before we become specialists we are general physicians who prescribe antidepressants, antipsychotics, take psychiatric rotations as doctors, etc.

    Affke. Dont focus too much on ur psychiatric referral. Its ok bro. It was more of a reaction to your requesting i take my comments elsewhere although i do sense some sadistic behavior in you. And there is a difference between opticians and physicians

    Anyhow, i find people like you who are upset and ask muslims to defend or condemn everything that is shown on television, well i find them to be of low IQ or having an agenda.

    If you or people like you believe 911 and the official story you are of the low IQ type and no matter what we tell you or how much we tell you Islam doesn’t condone that violence it makes no difference. You believe what you see on television.

    I suggest you spend your energies working for justice and uncovering the lies behind the most important political event of our recent era.

  240. TE I agree with you. And I must admit I no longer have time or energy for these ridiculous go-arounds. I fail Omar’s litmus test- and it bothers me not at all, I’d be ashamed to pass.

  241. Islamically custody is in the best interest of the children. In certain times and cultures that might favor men- but those rulings are not fixed for all times and ancient jurists would roll over in their graves to think their rulings have been codified in the way some have done.

  242. You passed my test Sandy! 😉

  243. “911 litmus test for IQ”

    Looks like the blind squirrel found a turd and thinks he discovered the golden acorn. Too bad Mr. optician, you cannot prescribe glasses for such condition.

    @Sandy, I agree with you such ancient traditions should never be codified into laws in modern societies.

  244. TE on July 1, 2013 at 8:16 pm said: If you’re interested, you can tell me the passages of the koran that you think I am missing that condone all of those events respectively in the debate page, and I will give them their due and honest consideration. If you prefer not to, that’s fine.

    TE, here is what the Religion of Peace Teaches About Violence …

    The koran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

    Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the koran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the koran.

    The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God, however this can work both ways. Most of today’s Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book’s call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Apologists cater to their preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem is not bad people, but bad ideology.

    Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Mohammad’s own martial legacy – and that of his companions – along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the koran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

    References

    koran (2:191-193); koran (2:244); koran (2:216); koran (3:56); koran (3:151); koran (4:74); koran (4:76); koran (4:89); koran (4:95); koran (4:104); koran (5:33); koran (8:12); koran (8:15); koran (8:39); koran (8:57); koran (8:59-60); koran (8:65); koran (9:5); koran (9:14); koran (9:20); koran (9:29); koran (9:30); koran (9:38-39); koran (9:41); koran (9:73); koran (9:88); koran (9:111); koran (9:123); koran (17:16); koran (18:65-81); koran (21:44); koran (25:52); koran (33:60-62); koran (47:3-4); koran (47:35); koran (48:17); koran (48:29)
    koran (61:4); koran (61:10-12); koran (66:9)

    TE, in addition, there are an inordinate number of hadiths, which preach both violence and hate speech. If you like, I can cite the hadith number/volume etc. LMK.

    BTW, the widely respected Dictionary of Islam defines Jihad as “A religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Mohammad. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and of repelling evil from Muslims…[Quoting from the Hanafi school, Hedaya, 2:140, 141.], “The destruction of the sword is incurred by infidels, although they be not the first aggressors, as appears from various passages in the traditions which are generally received to this effect.”

  245. Moderators: I intended to post the above in the debate section, but inadvertently posted it here. Sorry!

  246. Aafke,

    I have never heard of a stall set up on the honor system! That’s kind of nice. I would be interested to see if the eyes would help them out like you suggested!

    Jay,

    No offense taken. I have a chip on my shoulder about other things, myself.

    Moe Bandy,

    Thanks for all the examples. As I said, I will give them their due consideration when I get the opportunity (day or two) and, if you’re interested, I will respond in the debate page.

    And, finally, Sarah,

    Thanks for the explanation. It appears to me that you are quite certain about this, and that is fine, although you did not address what I consider to be the most fatal flaws of your ideologies in regards to women’s liberation. Namely that there are many examples of families in the West wherein women worked and behaved as equal to the men, and their children were raised wonderfully; to be polite, to be decent, to be respectable. On the other hand, there’s been the children of stay-at-home mothers who have turned out to be a mess. Can you explain how this happens if it is something as simple as women’s liberation that is destroying society? Furthermore, aren’t you Muslim? Do you deny that it is within the rights of women to work if they so choose? And what about the Prophet’s first wife? Do you think that Khadijah was doing something wrong by being an influential merchant, to the point that Mohammad worked under her? Did that leave Mohammad, as per your reasoning, as her maid?

    And for the 9/11 stuff, let me answer very simply. If this is not a point you are willing to consider at the moment, I think we would have an unsuccessful debate about anything that is more difficult to disprove:

    There is no record of a Nick/Nicholas Rockefeller existing in the famous Rockefeller family. So, when some man with a political agenda who openly spoke of how he wants to use his talents in film making to sway public opinion against the “downward spiral” of America tries to speak about some man of influence that had some secret information about 9/11, the least we should do before we treat this like the smoking gun is see if the man even existed.

    So, there’s no record of this Rockefeller existing. No one knows about him. No one’s heard about him. And, as you keep pointing out, the Rockefellers are quite a large family and its members decently famous, so we tend to be able to find out about a Rockefeller if we go looking. So what do you think explains the absence of any and all detail on Nicholas Rockefeller? Do you think it is a long con? Do you think that he did not get an official birth certificate? That the family kept quiet about him until he was a weird, bald, bespectacled old man like the guy Russo posed with in the only photograph of “Nicholas” to exist? Or that the government hid all of the records of him existing from the very beginning, because they and his family and Nicolas himself knew that one day he would grow up to know something about 9/11 and blab about it to a filmmaker? And, if the government did take the time to hide all records of someone you consider to be a key insider to 9/11 and other government secrets, they did a pretty poor job spiriting away the records of the other Rockefellers who you suspect to know as much as “Nicolas,” or the people more directly “involved” with 9/11 whose pictures and full name and full records are able to be found.

    Anyway, I hope you reconsider objectively. As I said, I once bought into the theory at a young age after watching that really famous 9/11 truth documentary. I’ve already lived in “the scary world,” and, if something that is really proof or evidence comes along, I can jump right back into it. I did just fine there!

    Either way, I respect your feelings are noble, even if we can’t come to an understanding on the matter.

    TE

    P.S.

    George W. slipped up and said a lot of things. He spent eight years as my country’s embarrassing step-father. The things that slip out of his rambling, drawling mouth were usually not pearls of truth or wisdom.

  247. I also probably should have put that last part in the debate page. If you are interested in responding, Sarah, please do so there. I will find your reply.

  248. Hahah, also, Moe Bandy, did you quote me but change my spelling of the Quran? I knew something looked weird to me about what I said in your reply.

  249. Okay, just one more thing:

    I apologize, Sarah, I read your reply at night and in the morning I guess I forgot what you meant about the maid line. My mistake. Disregard the single sentence in my reply where I mentioned the maid thing.

  250. Sorry, debate page take a long time to load. So I am posting here.

    TE,
    I appreciate your opinion and thoughts. Although I do not know of any Western family where women worked and raised good kids, I don’t doubt that there are many such families but they are in the minority. Sometimes there is one bright green leaf on a tree in fall. 🙂

    And there are homely women who raise bad kids, as you say. Women’s lib is one aspect of decaying family life in the West but it is by no means the only one. As I said in the previous comment, see the movies that hollywood, bollywood, dollywood …etc churns out, the video games, the cartoons, the music …etc. Then again if a wife stays at home it does not automatically mean that she is a good mother or wife. You cannot narrow it down to one thing. What I am saying is the liberation of women plays a major role in the corruption of the society. When I say liberation of women, I am not only talking about women holding jobs but her conduct in the society, the way she behaves, dresses, the type of jobs they accept … you get what I mean.

    I do not deny women’s right to work. Islam has already given her rights which is suitable for her role in society. She can work if it is required and if she is working then she must make sure that it is in a proper environment and she knows how to conduct herself. Prophet Muhammad’s (saas) wife was a business women even before Islam and even before she married him. She hired him because of his noble character and honesty. That does not make him a maid. There is nothing wrong in women hiring men. The general rule is that all is within the limits set by God. Problem comes when one steps out of this boundary.

    Take care.
    You talked a lot about Nick and his family. It does not matter if the family exists or not or if he is alive or even born. However the deception exists. And I never said he is the key to 911. 911 is a hoax and it is not the mastermind of just one man. That is not possible. We are living in a world filled with deception.

    So what did you think about that truth documentary?

    I agree on what you said about George. But he is not the only one.

  251. @Omar, Sarah: See debate page please. Thanks.

  252. @Aafke,
    I agree that knowing there is a way out, that we have this choice, promotes a healthier marriage. However, I think that in unhealthy relationships not having a way out can help the marriage stay together. However, in the latter case it would probably be best for everyone to allow divorce. In the former case, it’s not going to make a huge difference other than both parties knowing that their relationship is based on love.

    @Sandy,
    I tend to agree with you about custody in Islam, etc.

  253. TE Thanks for taking this to the debate page.
    Everybody, please go to the debate page.

  254. Indian Marriages are the same, all are arranged by family for two strangers. Yet, the divorce rate are the lowest.

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