Saudi Arabia/World: What Exactly is a Muslim Students Association


It is a pleasure for American Bedu to interview and ask some questions to Amira, a representative of the Muslim Students Association of Cal State Northridge.  Through her answers American Bedu not only learn what exactly is a Muslim Students Association but specifically that of the MSA located in the United States at Cal State Northridge.

To begin with, what exactly is the Muslim Students Association (MSA)?  What is its function and purpose?

MSA is an outlet for Islam on campuses. It is a place where non-Muslims can come to learn about Islam, and Muslims can come to connect with Islam and Muslims.

What exactly does the MSA at Cal State Northridge do?
The CSUN MSA has 3 main functions at the moment. We conduct weekly meetings with speakers and topics relevant to Islam, Muslims, and the community. These meetings are open to all students, and we encourage all to join. We also conduct a weekly Dawah(Outreach) Table in which we set up a booth and make ou selves available to provide information on Islam and the MSA and to answer any questions people might have.

How many members does it have today?  What is the composition of members?  What nationalities and countries are represented?

The CSUN MSA has about 50 to 100 members today.
Many different nationalities, cultures & countries are represented such as India, Pakistan, Palestine, Jamaica, Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, El Salvador, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Libya, Jordan, Morocco, East Turkistan & Others.

Does one have to be a Muslim to attend a meeting or function of the MSA?
One does not have to be Muslim to attend nor function in the MSA.

We have non-Muslims who gladly attend meetings & help from time to time, and they always receive a warm welcome.
In fact, when advertising for the meeting, we make it clear that all people are welcomed regardless of religion, nationality etc.

Who would want to attend an MSA event and why?  What can someone learn or experience at an MSA event?
Anybody interested, in Islam, in Religion or Interfaith discussion. By attending an MSA event people can learn more about Islam and Muslims. All are encouraged to come!

Can an individual learn Arabic through the MSA or any of its members?
We do not offer Arabic courses at this time; however, the CSUN MSA is currently collaborating with a CSUN professor to start up an Arabic program on campus.

How can a Muslim or non-Muslim interact with the MSA in regards to resources or promotion?

The MSA is always looking for donations, sponsorships, and resources to help us out with our variety of tasks.

How does one contact the MSA at Cal State Northridge?

You can contact the MSA on our Facebook Page: CSUN MSA

Are there any additional comments you’d like to add?

Thank you for this wonderful opportunity to share our MSA with you.

Thank you, Amira, for this opportunity to identify and explain about the Muslim Students Association at Cal State Northridge.

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100 Responses

  1. MSA is understood to be a front organization for the Ikhwan (The Muslim Brotherhood), an organization dedicated to World Islamic domination. Not only members but top MSA officials have been linked to terrorist organizations. Note also that the history of the Ikhwan is not just bloody but vicious.

    MSA is basically a propaganda machine, giving a smiling face to an ugly ideology. Here is a typical example of a MSA statement (about terror):
    “Based on the Quran, the Muslim Holy Book, and the sayings of Prophet Mohammad, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties and the environment, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women and children are all forbidden and detestable acts. Acts of terrorism are not only condemned in Islam but are also pointedly declared alien to the teachings of Islam. Thus, if those who committed this heinous act claimed it to be in the name of Islam, then they do not represent the true ideals of Islam.”
    http://dukechronicle.com/article/msa-condemns-terrorism-warns-against-prejudice

    One wonders if these people have actually read the Quran and Hadith. Note that they did not give references, verses or links – a wise decision.

    Other MSA boldly step in where angels fear to trod, making up facts as they go and ignoring both history and context:
    http://binghamtonmsa.org/islam/islam-on-terrorism/

    And they people wonder why so many distrust Muslims. How about – instead of cute words and distorted facts and misquoted scripture – just apply the Golden Rule?

  2. Most Muslim students and those who promote Islam for money have no clue as to what they promote.

  3. Thanks for sharing!

  4. *Who would want to attend an MSA event and why? What can someone learn or experience at an MSA event?
    Anybody interested, in Islam, in Religion or Interfaith discussion. By attending an MSA event people can learn more about Islam and Muslims. All are encouraged to come!*

    This sounds really nice and such meetings are important to my mind. One has to get to know the ”others” from different cultures and religions, (or whatever else defines groups), to learn to like and appreciate.
    We have a saying, ”What one doesn’t know, one doesn’t care about”
    I really think that keeping away from people who are from a different ”group” (whatever kind of group) is a bad idea. That way one is missing out a lot. And also, this is how misunderstandings are born.

    Do the members of the MSA in their turn attend, get to know and discuss at other meetings with other groups? Do they in turn regularly visit Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Wicca, etc, groups?
    Do they attend regularly to Atheist gatherings and discuss stuff with them?
    I suppose your members do, otherwise the concept of ”interfaith dialogue” seems a bit thin.

    I recommend you change your focus from ‘ dawah’ to ‘ outreach’ , because now it looks as if your goal is proselytizing, not ”interfaith dialogue”.

  5. I wonder why Muslim groups think proselytyzing is so good in the US when done by Muslims, but so terrible when done in Muslim countries by non-Muslims?

  6. HURRAYYYYYY!!!!!!!! For the people of Egypt!!!!!!!!

  7. @Amira,

    I really like the idea of students being engaged in associations. It helps improve organizational experience (key to professional development) and educate others about minority.

    However, I have to agree with others. The fact that your organization calls its activities Da3wah, makes it sound like your objectives is more about proselytizing rather than educate others and have an outreach program. It does not help the case of presenting Muslims as part of the community.

  8. Again…I think if it was a two way street…you learn about my faith and I learn about yours..then it isn’t a bad thing necessarily. But I find what happens is most Muslims will not or are not interested in listening to anyone else’s faith. Don’t try to change the other person, don’t try to persuade the other person, don’t try to convince the other person that your faith is superior…Just listen and do so with an open mind with no expectations of anything other than learning what the other person believes and why. Having said all that perhaps the Christian groups on campus do the same thing…try to soft sell prostyletizing….maybe Muslims are more successful at it (if they are) because they are clearer within their beliefs that they don’t ever step into the other camp so to speak and thereby limit their exposure to prostyletizing from other faiths. Maybe Christians, coming from a more open tradition are more open to hearing the Muslim narrative than the reverse. So it does flow in one direction…but again that still defeats the purpose of Interfaith Dialogue…maybe there should be classes that all faiths should attend that teaches about each others faith without preaching or pressure…just the facts without the emotional component. I mentioned that they did that in my daughters school…at eleven she could give you a pretty good thumbnail sketch about what other faiths believe without feeling one is better than another…they taught it in a dispassionate way.

    Then again…and correct me if I am wrong…isn’t it true that Muslims get “extra points” in heaven if they convert someone? I don’t think I have ever heard about that in the Christian tradition. So for Muslims there is more at stake in the prostelytizing.

  9. Oby, I don’t really believe in ”interfaith dialogue” I think all religious people are firmly convincedd that they are right and all others are wrong. They will sit around the table maybe, conversing politely, and being all open and dialogue-y, and meanwhile being all convinced that they themselves are going to heaven and everybody else goes to hell. That alone will never really open ones heart to people of a different denomination. Or ”infidels” as religious people like to denigrate everybody on the planet who does not happen to believe in their particular faith.
    At least those of the Abrahamic religions. Because that is what their religions have at their core. It’s in the ”books” it’s ”god’s word”.

    I’d have more trust in interfaith dialogue between non-monotheistic religions.
    And atheists.
    Bot upset with somebody else who happens to have #301.
    And atheists just view religions as a hang-over superstition from more primitive times, and are by default not prone to believing all non-atheists will go to hell! 😉

  10. My sentence went missing!
    ”Because if you already have 300 gods, nobody is going to be upset if somebody else has got #301”

  11. Aafke…

    I think a Saudi Muslim friend of mine said it best…God is merciful and fair… regardless of faith everyone is going to heaven.

  12. Oby, nice!
    So I don’t have to worry…
    😈

  13. If everyone is going to heaven, can I go to the other place. Please!.

  14. No problem Jay, an optimist will always find a cosy place, even in hell, close to the fire..

  15. jay kactuz, on February 11, 2011 at 4:27 am said:

    MSA is understood to be a front organization for the Ikhwan (The Muslim Brotherhood), an organization dedicated to World Islamic domination. Not only members but top MSA officials have been linked to terrorist organizations. Note also that the history of the Ikhwan is not just bloody but vicious.
    —————————————————————
    Inform police, FBI and so and so if u think they are linked to terrorists. THere are also christians in this MSA, ask them to arrest him too. If u dnt alert FBI, u are also linked to terrorists.

    U kindly read Bible first and find out those violent verses instead of spewing venom as usual.

  16. @jay kacktuz,

    Stop it. Do something plz.
    =================================

    200,000 Hispanic converts to Islam to join terrorists and kill non-Muslims:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/nyregion/09muslims.html

    =======================================

  17. MD. So how have you been? Been a while since we had a chat.

    You know, I have no problem with your facts or statements – I may think otherwise but you are welcome to contradict me. It is your right. Just make sure you know what you are talking about.

    What I find to be astonishing is the fact that so-called ‘serious’ Muslims cant seem to read or understand their own writings. They never do research. They believe just about anything if wrapped in the idea of ‘Islam’.

    The good Muslims just let it go. They know that there are things about Islam that are not so nice. I rarely get in a discussion with them because they don’t preach the “islam is perfect” gospel nor do the attempt to ram their religion down anybody’s throat.

    First of all, do you agree with the stupid statements found on almost all MSA websites that (as above) ‘Acts of terrorism are not only condemned in Islam but are also pointedly declared alien to the teachings of Islam’? If you don’t, if you understand that there are things in Islam that promote hate, discrimination and violence – then we are together. If you do, then you need to do a little research and open your mind. As I have said before, apply the same principles to Islam as you expect of non-Muslims. Try it.

    Here, let me show you… Take the MSA at CSUN, for example, Amira’s buddies, go to their website. Now look at what is going on.
    http://www.msacsun.org/activities/default.htm

    Very little, but their ‘activities’ page has a speaker: Shaikh Abdul Jalil Mezgouri – So who is this guy? Run his name through Google and “Militant Muslim Monitor” site pops up. Discard that because it is anti-Islam. Hey, he is also in the New York Times (2003)…
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E4DF1531F937A15753C1A9679C8B63&pagewanted=2

    The story is “Sense of Trust Is Shaken in Man Who Took Suspects Into Home” about a guy that routinely has terrorists living at his home – wonder who? – yeah, but it is all a big mistake, of course.

    Both the MSA web and facebook sites are long inactive. Amira may also want to rethink the link to “Islamic Relief”, a Brotherhood-controlled organization known for channeling funds to charitable causes such as Hamas and Chechen terrorists (bombs must be the ‘other necessaties’ [sic] that the MSA-CSUN site says IR sends to Chechnya). And yes, IR probably does some good work also.

    I have never said the Bible doesn’t contain violent verses? Does that mean you are going to convert to Buddhism?

    What I am saying, what I have been saying all along is that good moderate Muslims need to wake up and smell the coffee. They need to ask themselves why it is so easy for Muslims to do violence. They need to stop blaming others for everything, and instead consider that maybe, who knowns, quien sabe, the hate and violence in the Quran and hadith against non-Muslims (and / or unbelievers, including other Muslims) may explain why so much of the world associates the concept “Islam” with the the word “terror”.

    From what I have seen of the MSA, they are serious Muslims and refuse to consider anything but’ Islam is perfect’ and 47 excuses why people think otherwise.

    On the other hand, I want to thank them, and USC, for putting the Quran and especially the hadith online. When people like me want to prove a point about the hate and violence in Islamic writings, we can link to their site:

    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/search.html

    How nice. Thank you, MSA.

  18. MD,

    In addition to the links that Jay mentioned in his posting, here is another link that I hope you find useful.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/16055814/The-Hidden-Life-of-the-Prophet-Muhammad

  19. Harry,

    Your link is good because of the historical context (the list of battles is about as good as I have seen). I have read Kathir, Tabari and Hisham and they are all interesting and agree with the context of the narrative in your link. Although written in a very anti-Islam style, the facts are basically correct. Even so, that type of document will not work with Muslims, because of its tone. On the other hand, I can’t even get Muslims to read the hadith, much less an anti-Islam document. You have to understand that Muslims are very reluctant to touch anything that is contrary to Islam, no matter how factual. This, I guess, is natural for all of us and not specific to Muslims. If in a discussion with Muslims, you must refer to Muslim sources and websites, or if all else fails, a main stream media site such as Reuters, NYT, Time, or many major newspaper. Link to or citing an anti-Muslim site is a waste of time.

    Whether one is Muslim or not, the era of Mohammad and the early Caliphs was very interesting (and bloody). There were some real characters there, for sure. In many ways it is not to different from the craziness that was Rome and the Byzantines.

    Another observation: I find the hadith to be basically coherent as regards to the Quran. They compliment and explain each other. This is both good and bad for Muslims.

    jay

    On the other hand .

  20. On the other hand… what?…

  21. Yes…on the other hand, what?

  22. Not that I don’t respect your point Jay…but I read something that I wanted to share with all. A bit off the subject perhaps but another view…according to this guy they need a newer narrative…things seem to be achangin’ or at least this guy thinks so…

    http://www.europeaninstitute.org/February-2011/by-oliver-roy.html

  23. @Jay Kactuz,

    I am surprised your hate level, long long lecture on other’s action/view/relgion without checking for ur own.
    I know u cant sleep night and day, ur ‘venom of hatred” is killing u every moment. But, even though I cant spend much time due to personal engagement, I love healthy discussion but not completely one sided, biased discussion with u.

    Am I supporting MSA or some XYZ’s terrorism?, if u knw that they are involved in terrorism, why dont u infrom FBI/police and give them evidence? Why are u supporting terrorists? Or u are just wracking key board?

    Note that Islam doesnt go to knock door to door to convert people, they do not distribute pamphletes in market, school, college, university, office to converts, its christians who do this but keep blaming others. Still millions convert to Islam, u know why? Because common people are shocked and curious to know about this alien, violent, terrorist, women hater religion called “Islam” as they see in daily manipulated media and so they want to explore more and more out of eagerness then start reading Quran. But once they read Quran and analyse they find the truth that Islam is right religion, what they hear is propaganda and so they convert without hesitation.

    They realise that Jesus PBUH is just a prophet, just messenger not “BEGETTED” son of God nor God nor Lord. “BEGET” means produce children by sexual intercourse. Do u think that God had sex with “VIRGIN” Mary? So, people realised that concept spread by Christian missionaries are manipulated and baseless. u will not find in entire Bible, where Jesus PBUH himself said that he is son of God or he is Lord. So I told u in previous post:

    200,000 Hispanic converts to Islam to join terrorists and kill non-Muslims:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/nyregion/09muslims.html

    U will find more n more conversion in all over world.

    U know Jesus PBUH circumcised, how many christians follow him and circumcise? Bible doesnt allow adulatry, drinking, how many take it seriously?

    I whole-heartedly condemn any kind of human right violation, terrorism be it stupid Al-Qaida who killed 3000 innocents, be it Taliban who kill their own people, be it Bush who killed 50,000 innocents and convert a peaceful Iraq to land of terrorists and who converted a peaceful world to violent,terrorist’s land and who gave economic trouble in all over US. When in ur life condemned terrorism of Christianity apart from pointing ur fingers to others?

    I advise you to do some research on your side about yourself, about your relgion, about your Bible (off course its mine too and I dont curse every moment unlike you ) too:

    1) Violent and hatred verses from Bible: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    2) Christian terrorism in world:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=Chrsitian+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    3)Chrsitian terrorism in India :

    http://www.google.com/search?q=Chrsitian+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=tAx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=Chrsitian+terrorism+in+India&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.1,or.&fp=5e2b21bd614e0a97

    Finally:
    Finally:
    Finally:
    Finally:
    Finally:

    EU Report2010:Only 1/294 terrorist attack by Muslim :

    Complete report : http://www.europol.europa.eu/publications/EU_Terrorism_Situation_and_Trend_Report_TE-SAT/Tesat2010.pdf

    And the news link : http://www.bt.com.bn/opinion/2011/01/16/danger-islamophobia

    Crime, violence is done and seen in every society, culture, religion. Criminal minded people use any means/medium to justify it. Even when there is no relgion, holy book any criminal person will do what he wishes to fulfill his personal interest.

    We need to support and gather peace-loving people irrespective of relgion,race to fight against human right violation/terrorism but not spitting venom of hatred.

  24. Oby,

    Quote (from “Post-Islamic Revolution” at European Institute.org): This generation of young Muslims has a mentality that wants pluralism – probably Another optical illusion [in Western perceptions] is a linkage between the trend toward political radicalization in the Arab world and what many people see as massive “re-Islamization” of these societies over the last 30 years. But even if it is true that the Arab population have obviously become more Islamic than it was 30 or 40 years ago, how does one explain the absence of Islamic slogans in the current wave of events? This is the paradox of Islamization: the very success of the Islamic revival has largely de-politicized Islam. Amid all the evidence of Islam’s social and cultural return (the return to the veil, the number of new mosques and new imams, religious networks on TV) has occurred in a way that is unrelated to the Islamist militants. This shift has opened up what one might call a “marketplace for religions” where no competitor has a monopoly. And the trend fits with the new appetite for faith-based activity among young people, who are individualistic and also changeable in their allegiances. In other words, the Islamists have lost their monopoly in the public “market” for religious zeal that they had in the 1980s in the Muslim revival.

    I don’t see this. I think what is happening is that the same elites in the West continue to give Islamists the benefit of the doubt. They want so much for this to be a true, liberal, secular and non-Islamist revolution, they are willing to overlook anything or even make up facts. I sincerely doubt that Islamists are embracing “Western-style middle-class political values” or a “de-politicized Islam” or a “market place of religions” as stated in the essay.

    What is happening, I think, is that Islamists are waiting their chance, saying what needs to be said so that people like Jimmy Carter can feel warm and cozy. Except for Iran, there have been no Islamist governments in the MENA aria – yet. I don’t consider the Saud / SA government to be Islamist (it is a special case). I do agree that Turkey is a model, but not in the sense that the writer does. Turkey is slowly going hard-core Islam – note the recent arrest of secularists in military. In that country, the Islamists profess their devotion to liberal ideas while quietly becoming more Islamic everyday.

    The problem is always the same. Muslims do not see any link between freedom of speech and religion (on one side) and the basic elements of democracy and human rights (on the other). Unless you have the right to speak up and even criticize religious dogma, unless people are equal before the law and society – then you have nothing. I don’t think Muslims can do this and so, whatever these revolts produce, I doubt it will be a liberal democracy.

    On the other hand, life is complicated and there are always to exceptions to the rule. On the other hand, maybe something good can come out of this. On the other hand, I think that no matter what we think and do, events will go even if we understand them or not. This change in Egypt (and beyond) is too big for any one person, or group of people, to understand or control.
    Take care….

    Jay

    PS: You know I don’t like Islamists, but I absolutely despise the regimes in Syria and Libya. I want so much for somebody to kick those guys out or better yet, hand them from lampposts.

  25. Jay, I couldn’t help but notice your PS re: Syria and Libya. OK,Syria especially catches my eye. So why do you hate the regimes there? I guess you know they (Syrian regime) aren’t Islamists since you separated Islamists and Syria and Libya with a “but.” Curious about your thoughts on that if you don’t mind sharing. Thanks!

  26. It goes back to the guys father – who wiped out an entire village because he was having a bad day. It was called Hamas – look it up.

    The current Assad is no better than his old man, whose soul is rotting in the darkest depths of hell. Well, I hope there is a hell and it has different rooms. I sure would hate to be in same room as the Assads and Gaddafi .

  27. Aha,yes, I know about the massacre of Hama. I think this is one reason the Syrians will be too scared to protest such as they did in Egypt and Tunisia. When some of them protested in the ’80s, the regime slaughtered thousands of them.

    There was a slight skirmish in Syria today, but nothing on the grand scale of other nations. Still it brought out the interior minster to tell them to go home.

    Thanks for replying. I was curious.

  28. You are probably right. There are tyrants and there are tyrants.

    There is an old saying that Ganhdi was Ganhdi only because his enemies were the British. Had they been German or Japanese, Ganhdi would have been dead before he started his movement.

    The Assads are right there with Hitler, Stalin, and the Kim Sung-Jong clan, in my opinion.

  29. There we go again with the myth of millions converting every day…evidence?

  30. MD, I will take time to answer you. I do have a life. I work 45 hours a week and then I go home and work some more.

    You and Muslims like you need to understand that criticism of Islam is not hate. The only REAL issues are if there are things in Islamic dogma that are worthy of criticism and if there are Muslims do evil because of that theology. I believe the answer to both is yes and yes. In that case I have a duty to speak up. If you disagree, you have a duty to explain your position, with facts and logic. Save words like “hate” and “racist” for silly liberals, not for an old man that has been married to a black woman for almost 40 years or has very good close relationships with dozens of people from all races, religions (yes, even Islam, but we don’t talk religion for obvious reasons), ethic groups and genders.

    Fortunately not all Muslims are like you. They practice their religion and accept criticism in silence, because I believe they see things that they know are not-so-nice. Unfortunately they either are few or cannot speak up because of people like you. It seems that people like you are always ready to do violence against other Muslims or infidels that don’t believe as you do.

    As I told you before, I don’t defend the Bible. If you are trying to say that Christianity and Islam are equally bad, then I expect you to announce that you are becoming a Buddhist, Hindu, Athiest or Scientologist. Note that if you choose the last, you will need lots of money, but maybe you can sit next to Kirstie Alley or Katie Holmes. Also, I am not impressed with numbers, although you seem to find comfort in believing that others believe what you believe. Let me let you in on 2 secrets, based upon history: 1. the majority is often wrong. 2. the good guys don’t always win.

    So what if I criticize Islam, Allah, the Quran and Mohammad? Why don’t you let your god deal with people like me? Don’t you people have any faith that Allah can punish us? Maybe it is Allah’s will that I do this, since Muslims believe that Allah determines everything. The Quran says Allah makes people sin and then, in another verse, she punishes them for it. Is that fair?

    You know, I wouldn’t criticize Muslims if Muslims weren’t doing so much evil. Perhaps if you get your Muslim friends to stop the hate and violence, things would be better and your feelings wouldn’t get hurt so much. Nobody would care what the Quran and ahadith say if Muslims weren’t doing so many bad things.

    Is this logic too complicated for you?

    You say you “whole-heartedly condemn any kind of human right violation, terrorism” and so on. Does what include unprovoked attacks by your dear prophet on non-Muslims? (or even Muslims in mosques , in case you don’t know…). If you don’t know about these then you obviously haven’t read and studied the Quran and ahadith. I gave a link above to the MSA site with the Quran and most of the so-called reliable traditions. To make it easy I suggest you do to the hadith link at MSA-USC and put in words like “jihad” “strike” “booty” and “ghazwat” . Be sure to check all boxes for Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and Maliks. Or, just as I have, just read the whole thing.

    In spite of these small differences, I am sure that we both can agree that what is happening in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Algeria and so on is exciting. I hope it will work out for the best for these people. Yes, I am pessimistic, but with luck I will be wrong about these revolts. It is time for the Arab street to throw of the chains of dictatorships (or, what the heck, get rid of these Zionist-Western puppets that really control Muslim countries and manipulate the jew controlled international media to slander those poor innocent tolerant Muslims. Is that better?)

    You have a good one.

  31. Susanne – I looked at your blog. Very eclectic. I liked the parts about your trip to Syria and Middle East. Unfortunately, I will probably never see those places.

  32. Jay, I hope you can go. Syria is great! I highly recommend it despite its regime. 🙂

  33. Susanne, I would love to see Egypt, Israel and Syria – so much history and so much of our culture is related to those ancient places. But probably won’t happen. 😦

    On the good side, I might end up in China this year. 🙂

  34. Jay, wow! That’s exciting! You are lucky to travel so much! My grandfather was born in China and I have a great grandmother buried over there. So it has as special place in my heart for those reasons.

    If you decide to visit Syria, I can put you in touch with some really nice people who will make you feel welcome. 🙂

  35. Reading the comments of travel make me reminiscent. My days of international travel are quite limited now and I’m thankful for all the many countries I did get to visit and places I’ve seen.

    @Jay – what part of China would you be going to? I had an incredible experience through China’s Xinjiang province.

  36. I don’t know yet. My daughter wants me to visit her in Hong Kong and then see at least some parts of China, including Macau and Beijing of course.

  37. t seems that people like you are always ready to do violence against other Muslims or infidels that don’t believe as you do.
    ====================================
    @Jay,

    U smartly ignored my posts and turned into same as usual Islam/Muslim bashing.
    U are really amazing. First of all how have u judged that I am a violent person? U are so judgemental too 🙂 Wont it be so hypocritical that person like u(who never ever condemn the evil acts of other faiths, groups and silently accepts them) asking me to condem Prophet Muhammad. U are not satisfied even when I condemn Taliban, Al-Qaida. Rather u r blaming me of being violent and anti- non-Muslim just because I do not accept ur biased view.

    U dnt leave any stone unturned if its slightly related to Islam/Muslim, virtually almost single Muslim, Islam, Muhammad, Quran. U associate every single Muslim org with terrorism. On the contrary, Surprisingly, I have never seen u condemning terrorism of Christianity, holocaust against other faiths, bombing and destroying entire nation and killing 100000s of innocent men/women/children. Violent verses in Bible, Forceful conversion by christian missionaries, christian terrorism sponsored by missionaries ( I showed links already). For u all these are good act but every other things of Muslim/Islam is evil?

    Forceful occupation and creation of Israel is legal and democratically elected Hamas are terrorists? 1 incident of killing by hama is terrorism, but killing of innocents by Israelli forces is legal? Keeping them in closed boundary without international help, without food is legal? OK, let me accept that certain attitudes of hamas are wrong, but what do u expect a Palestenine to think and behave when they are being bombed and kept without food? Will u call them terrorists? What abt the illegal war and killings of Iraqis? U are smart to condemn victims but support criminals?

    If u have courage to condem all sorts of evils, then I can say u are unbiased person. But u condemn based on faths, race. Am I wrong?

    For ur info, Its my personal freedom to choose my relgion, u are not the one to suggest. If some1 like u hates Islam/Muslim, then its not my problem but urs.

    Also, I will not condemn any kind of war, killing happend during the time of Propheet Muhammad PBUH. To bring humanity, a society of human being, to abolish animalism, to abolish animalistic society, to stop burrying female baby, war was indespensable but not a preferred choice. A sound and intelligent mind is required to undertand the animalistic situation of that time. If world’s war on Afghanistan to erase Taliban is welcomed, why should similar action to abolish animalistic society be condemend? An intelligent and analytical mind is required to understand that real meaning of –

    “Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or
    religious people,” and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, “Do
    not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.” – Quran

    Even in War, Islam says to fight only and only Army not innocents,women,children,old people. A hateful and biased media or person’s propaganda cannot hide such verses from Quran but highlighting and applying battle field verses on common life.

    Well, enough of analysis abt Islam and Muslim. I asked some question of christianity, but u fail to reply.

    Let me repeat:

    1) How can you call Jesus PBUH a “begetted son of God” when begets means “to have sex to produce kids”? Did God do sex with Virgin Mary to give birth to Jesus PBUH?

    2) Agreed, Jesus PBUH was born without a father and so Christians call him Son of God,in that case Adam was born without both father and mother, wont Adam PBUH wont be greater, bigger son of God? What is the brainwashed and misinterpreted logic?

    3) Jesus PBUH was a jew and he did circumcision, christians generally do not circumcise, then how can they claim to be follower of Jesus PBUH when they dont follow him?

    4) Drinking, pre-marital sex is not allowed as per Bible, but its quite common and they do without repentance, how they claim to be follower of Jesus PBUH?

    Sometimes, we can discuss about christianity also right? its boring to discuss Islam/muslim only always. We can change topic sometimes 🙂

  38. MD AZAD ALI SHAH,

    Where in the Bible is drinking alcohol prohibited?

  39. And what’s wrong with wine?
    if god didn’t like wine he (or she) shouldn’t ahve made grapes.

  40. a) The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine. The English word wine originally had two meanings also – unfermented juice or alcoholic drink.

    b) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.

    c) The Bible says alcoholic drink is evil. It is not just the amount one drinks that makes drinking a sin. God condemns the drink itself. (Prov 20:1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    d) God does not lead us into evil; He delivers us from it. He does not teach us to practice evil in moderation. Jesus did not make, use, approve, commend, or tell us to use intoxicating wine.

    e) God made man to have fellowship with Him. Alcohol goes directly to the brain, the communication center of the body. It interferes with God’s purpose for mankind.

    There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.

    Genesis 9:20-26 – Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

    Genesis 19:30-38 – Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

    Leviticus 10:9-11 – God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

    Numbers 6:3 – The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

    Deuteronomy 21:20 – A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

    Deuteronomy 29:5-6 – God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

    Deuteronomy 32:33 – Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

    Any many more verses. Orignal Bible cant be wrong.

  41. Dear susanne430 and Aafke-Art,

    a) The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine. The English word wine originally had two meanings also – unfermented juice or alcoholic drink.

    b) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.

    c) The Bible says alcoholic drink is evil. It is not just the amount one drinks that makes drinking a sin. God condemns the drink itself. (Prov 20:1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    d) God does not lead us into evil; He delivers us from it. He does not teach us to practice evil in moderation. Jesus did not make, use, approve, commend, or tell us to use intoxicating wine.

    e) God made man to have fellowship with Him. Alcohol goes directly to the brain, the communication center of the body. It interferes with God’s purpose for mankind.

    There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.

    Genesis 9:20-26 – Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

    Genesis 19:30-38 – Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

    Leviticus 10:9-11 – God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

    Numbers 6:3 – The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

    Deuteronomy 21:20 – A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

    Deuteronomy 29:5-6 – God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

    Deuteronomy 32:33 – Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

    Any many more verses. Orignal Bible cant be wrong.

  42. Oh please, the original bible is a hotchpotch of bronze age stories nonsense and leftovers from earlier religions. Just like any other ”holy” book.
    So this invisble sky-daddy makes grapes, and sugars and lets them ferment into alcohol, then he tells people not to drink it at the same time making people so that they really, really like it. He then sends his son who cheers up a party by changing water into wine and getting drunk.

    I mean really, please, nobody who is sane could believe this nonsense.

  43. Mr. Md….Shah

    It seems you copy and pasted that quite well. 🙂 A few years back I had a Muslim friend ask me about the Bible’s position on alcohol and I found this website which I found very balanced. It even deals with the grape juice thing that you mentioned.

    I hope you will check it out.

    http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

  44. Dear Mohammed Azad Ali Shah,

    Wow …. a long name :)- I have always been intrigued as to why wahabbis have such long names?

    Anyhow, here are a couple of links for you to ponder upon. After your ponderings, I am certain that you are going to go on your usual rant “this is not islam and islam doesn’t preach that”. I hope you will agree with me that “islam is as muslims do”.

    Bed Bugs at UN:

    http://dotsub.com/media/b5ee5ada-5b37-4b0b-9916-e0896337ec4b/e/m

    IRANIUM – The Movie:

    http://www.iraniumthemovie.com/drip/zandervin.html

  45. @ Harry Guggen, I notice you are interested in Islam.
    The series ‘A verse a day will keep Islam away’ will teach you a lot.
    And it is filmed by an Arabic speaking man, he translates and explains.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/TXHalabi?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/2/4OSkvR5cWws

  46. Thank you, Ano! Was quite educational :)-

  47. I agree with Aafke. The idea that alcohol is absolutely evil is ridiculous. Also to hear Muslims talk about how the ‘original’ bible says anything since the original bible never existed as a unified work. If you are a Christian the example of Jesus and wine is certainly a sign that alcohol use is allowed.

    Why is alcohol absolutely condemned but killing not?

  48. Why is alcohol condemned but rape is not?
    Why is alcohol condemned and pedophelia is not?
    There is so much wrong with religion and the ”holy” books. They are so childish, so unlogic and so wrong in so many parts that I really cannot understand why there are so many intelligent, well educated humans who still buy into these bronze age, primitive, badly written and clearly edited ”manuals”.
    And especially women. What with all the misogynist and demonstrably faulty nonsense about women in these archaic hangovers from barbaric times… it is incredible to me that a sane intelligent woman can fall for that crap.

  49. MD, Yesterday I opened “American Bedu” and saw your name and this subject in the left-sidebar on “recent comments”. “Oh heck!” I said to myself, “not again”. You are like a Rottweiler (the dog, used in the Western sense, as a compliment, not in the Muslim one, as unclean). I didn’t feel like answering then but will take up this cross now.

    I told you I was not going to defend the Bible, and so what do you do? You post another bunch of references to the Bible (even so, like it or not, difficult verses or not, the Bible is much better prose than the Quran. Note also that the Bible is based on the concept that “sin” is bad, not just “unbelief” as in the Quran. There is a big big difference, in case you haven’t noticed). What is it, do you hate Christians? You should – obviously they must be very evil people – just look at those verses! Too bad they are not nice, tolerant people like you Muslims!

    Christians do not make excuses for their evils; they also do not say “Praise be upon them” after the name of people who attack, plunder, torture, kill, lie, enslave and rape. Why don’t you stop ignoring the actions of your prophet? Take a look around you and see how Islamic societies are. Have you watched the news lately? They are a mess because they don’t understand freedom and equality. I don’t know what will happen in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, but I doubt if it will be a Western style democracy that respects human rights. Islam and Muslims are incapable of allowing free thought and equality – that is against Islam and 99% of Muslims are afraid of being “against Islam”.

    Why are you so obsessed with the Bible? Your argument is that the Bible is as bad as the Quran. Ok, then renounce both and leave all of us alone.

    The fact is that you are as ignorant of the bible as the Quran. Christians can both drink wine and not circumcise. That is in the New Testament. As to wine, Muslims will get lots of it in paradise (Quran 47:15, 56:24 and 56:178-19). So why the double standard?

    Also nobody made Mohammad do wars. He left Mecca of his own will after he had attacked, vandalized his neighbor’s homes and insulted them. Remember he was protected by his uncle. He went to Medina, joined his neighbor’s enemies and started attacking just about everybody. He gained supporters by offering booty, including livestock and slaves. Obviously he was a capable leader and military strategist. He waged wars of aggression for 10 years against many his neighbors, making, breaking and changing rules and promises, always to his own benefit. He killed many, massacred whole tribes, plundered villages and caravans, enslaved men women and children, tortured, and let his men rape captives, not to mention taking two wines the day after killing their husbands – contrary to Allah’s word – and one of these was clearly rape. .
    If you do not know these things, you are ignorant of basic hadith, Islamic history and the Quran. Once again, read those yourself – word for word, without the usual “Islam is perfect” filter.

    As to your stupid statement about “Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees”, why don’t you consider your prophet’s attack and destruction of the palm trees of the Banu Nazir or the vineyards at Taif? In fact, his men were scandalized because this made always been a taboo in Arabia. So guess what? Allah just happened to send down a verse (Quran 99:5) that gave permission to do this. How nice. How convenient.

    See, MD, I obviously know a lot more about both the Bible and Quran than you. You are out of your league here.

    As to your questions about Christianity I will answer them tomorrow. I have things to do now.

    Also I have a question for you.
    Would you kindly explain Quran verse 9:107. It is about your prophet sending people to attack a mosque (at Dhu Awan) because of their “unbelief”. You can start by explaining how this is compatible with the Quran verse 3:20. If they didn’t believe, why did Mohammad violate “No compulsion in religion” verse? While you are at it, you might want to explain the morality of a man sending forces to attack a Masjid built “for the weak and ill persons on rainy nights” (tabari) which was filled with women and children.

    So I will try to answer you questions and you can answer mine of course. I know it will be easy for you.

  50. Duhhh ” two wives” not “two wines” after killing their husbands.

    I guess I have wine on the brain after this post. And I don’t even care that much for it.

  51. Hmmm, I don’t know Jay, I did think you were a bit obsessed with wine…
    Or wines…

  52. Jay…thanks for giving me a chuckle with your typo!

  53. MD, Just want you to know that I am working on your four questions, mulling them over in my little old head. I am going to do it without any textual or Internet research. I should be able to do it, all I have to do is remember those darn Sunday school lessons from 50+ years ago. Of course, I would have paid more attention if I had known that in 2011 I would be called upon to defend Christianity and civilization and motherhood and all that is pure and righteous from those terrible Muzluum infidels. But no, I was probably pinching little Sally’s butt instead of paying attention to some old guy explaining the Sermon on the Mount.

    Any way, I will answer you today.

  54. PS: Don’t forget verse 9:107 !!!!!!I

  55. Jay, I am dying to read what you remember from Sunday school classes 50 years ago! 😀 😀 😀

    Really, if MD would read the link I posted the other day, he could get a real lesson on the Bible’s view of alcohol.It was a very balanced article showing the pros and cons…and it addressed the grape juice argument too!

  56. ‘What’s wrong with grape juice???

  57. Susanne, are you refering to Sally or the the lectures I ignored?

  58. All I remember about sunday school were the hard benches and the desire to get the sermon over with so we could charge down to the basement for cookies, juice, and Foosball. Good times.

  59. Aafke, MD had used the argument that wine in the Bible was really grape juice which was addressed in this article I told him he should read if he really wanted to learn the biblical view of alcohol. It was obvious from his cut-and-paste answer that he never studied the issue but just took the word of some website.

    Here is the link: http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

    Jay, ha…oops! I mean what you remembered from the lectures you were ignoring in order to charm Sally. I figured it ought to be good to see what stuck with you while you were, um, distracted. 😉

  60. Didn’t have time to do this last night. Sorry. Was up till midnight working on an Autism paper.

    Anyway, MD, here are my responses.

    1) How can you call Jesus PBUH a “begetted son of God” when begets means “to have sex to produce kids”? Did God do sex with Virgin Mary to give birth to Jesus PBUH?

    1. The Christian god does not need to have sex to make people. He is god, remember – you know, all-powerful, the Creator. Maybe the Mohammedan god can’t do anything, but the Bible says “with God all things are possible”. From a more scriptural view I would argue that Isaiah (Old Testament) that “a virgin shall conceive” and have a child, to be called “Emanuel, meaning God with us. Yes, I am aware that the Hebrew word is “young girl” or “damsel” but the context is about the kind asking for an extraordinary miracle, and that would mean a virgin birth. The Hebrew Septuagint translates the word as “virgin”. The New Testament says that Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I must confess that I don’t understand all the implications of this, or even the concept of Trinity, but I also don’t quite understand how microwave radiations alters the chemistry of the cell, but the darn oven works anyway.

    2) Agreed, Jesus PBUH was born without a father and so Christians call him Son of God, in that case Adam was born without both father and mother, wont Adam PBUH wont be greater, bigger son of God? What is the brainwashed and misinterpreted logic?

    The Bible never calls Adam the “Son of God”, nor does it insinuate that he was eternal (The “I am” theology) or that Adam was part of God (‘I and the Father are one”). I guess that under your logic, Allah had sex with somebody to produce Adam. Anyway, this was before my time, and I don’t remember it.

    3) Jesus PBUH was a jew and he did circumcision, christians generally do not circumcise, then how can they claim to be follower of Jesus PBUH when they dont follow him?

    I mentioned this before. Obvious you have never read the New Testament. Try the “Acts of the Apostles” or some of the letters (epistles) of Paul. There are whole chapters dedicated to this subject. Note that the prose is quite easy and pleasant, unlike the Quran. In fact, old Paul could really write a line. In my opinion, the three greatest writers ever, in terms of elegant simple prose, were Lincoln, Churchill and the Apostle Paul (care of the KJV translators, of course)

    4) Drinking, pre-marital sex is not allowed as per Bible, but its quite common and they do without repentance, how they claim to be follower of Jesus PBUH?

    As I mentioned before, the Bible allows drinking, and seems to suggest that it be moderate. The Apostle Paul specifically says to have “a cup of wine to help the stomach.”. As to the sex thing, the answer is “I have no idea”. The New Testament specifically condemns adultery and fornication, and says that those who do those things will not make it past the pearly gates. Of course, your prophet can have sex with “slave girls” (as Aisha tells us), outside of marriage obviously, yet that is fine and dandy with you. So get off the high horse of virtue and put your feet on the ground before condemning others for illicit sex.

    You now, MD, I wonder why Muslims like you spend so much time on the difficult parts of the Bible or go into hysterics over obscure theology and demand absolute logic, morality and coherence, yet when it comes to the Quran and your dear prophet, none of this matters. Why? They have a saying in Brazil that says “Pimenta no cu dos outros nao doi”. That is basically your position. I can’t translate that because it is not nice.

    PS: That ‘Son of God’ thing in Old Testament may be wrong (item 2). There are some obscure passages that use that terminology (“Sons of god and daughters on men”) and so on. Need to check that, but not now, today or this week.

    Tchau!

  61. Just checking if MD has responded yet. Nope!

  62. It is now February 25 – My dad’s Birthday. He is 88.

    I am checking to see if MD has explained those verses.

    He wanted so much to pursue this and where is he? This is day two. I will give him 7 days.

  63. Jay, I enjoyed your answers. You actually remembered quite a bit from Sunday School! 🙂 Maybe MD is still processing all you said or working on answers for you.

    Wow, happy 88th birthday to your dad! I hope he is doing well! Today is my nephew’s 9th birthday. He’s the one interviewed earlier this month who said Americans like bourbon chicken. I remember you asked what that was.

    Have a good day!

  64. I too enjoyed your answers Jay! 😀
    I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for MD to respond.

  65. Feb 26, 2011 – Day 3 of 7.

    MD. You know, back on Feb 18 I threw you an olive branch, trying to change the subject (Quote: In spite of these small differences, I am sure that we both can agree that what is happening in Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Algeria and so on is exciting. I hope it will work out for the best for these people, etc…). But oh no, you didn’t want to talk about the wonderful things happening in the Arab world, instead you wanted to prove to me how evil Christianity is and so you continued the discussion. Now finish it, ok?

    Thank you Lynn. You are so kind.

    Susanne. I wasn’t just Sunday school, but Sunday night, Wednesday and Saturday, and at home in between. My dad was a preacher and he made sure I knew the Bible from genesis to revelation. So I do. He is poor, never had much money but we always got by, barely. He never womanized or drank or gambled. Really pathetic! Except for my Dad, most of the clergy are pretty rotten – at least the ones I’ve seen. So today I have little respect for religion, but I don’t know about my Dad and his Lord. Too many hail and brimstone sermons about the end times and much of it appears to be coming true. Damn it, it makes me a little bit nervous.

    Jay

  66. Jay, ahhhh, you are a PK! That explains a lot! 😀 No, your father really does sound like a great guy. Thanks for sharing that. 🙂

    Yes,I can understand having little respect for religion based on what religious people have said and done. This is why I often try to separate myself from religion and stress relationship (with Jesus). Silly maybe, but some interpretations of religion will lead you to do bad things, and I think following Jesus in how we deal with others is a good thing.

  67. Jay
    I too enjoyed reading yours (and Susanne’s) response. I had no idea about the grape juice thing. To me it made sense that people drank wine as there were no sanitary conditions back then and the wine was the least likely thing to give you cholera or any other water borne disease…seemed like a no brainer to me.

    Yes I agree that in many ways religion has mucked up the world a bit and the clergy are at the top of that guilt list…

  68. I have to chime in too on how much I enjoyed your answers Jay.

    I’m a little behind on comments so please forgive my delay on extending birthday greetings to your Dad.

    Come on MD…give us your responses.

  69. Day 4 of 7

    PK and MK, too. I hated it!

    I once had a Sunday School teacher that defended the “wine is grape juice” thing. I told Dad and he said that was hogwash, that it was fermented. Dad is doing ok, with the usual joys and sadness that we humans (myself, Carol, all of us) have to live with. Such is life.

    I am killing time here….

    Anyway, I got one of two references right in my comment above – the one about “sons of god”. It was from Genesis: “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”

    The term “Sons of god” or Nephilim in the Hebrew is difficult and scholars that argue about how many angels can dance on a needle also argue about who were the Nephilim in Genesis 6. I was taught that they were fallen angels that didn’t “keep their first estate” (must have been foreclosed upon in the first real estate bubble).

    I had forgotten the other mention of this term. In the book of Daniel 3:25 the extra fourth man in the furnace is said to be like a/the “Son of god” and, of course, the scholars debate both the translation and identity of this unknown figure. I was taught that this was a “theophany” – a technical term used by Christian scholars to denote an appearance (one of several) of the eternal Christ in the Old Testament, and of course, an argument for the concept of the trinity

  70. Jay, my grandfather (China) and mother (Niger and Nigeria) are both MKs too. 🙂

    I enjoyed your addition about the “son of God” thing. There are others in the Bible called sons of God and you also notice reference to believers being part of God’s family or children of God. I think John 3:16’s reference to Jesus being the “only begotten son” was simply the old King James English way of say “unique” son of God. We all know if Mary were a Virgin that she didn’t have sex with God since sex pretty much does away with virginity. 🙂 So it makes sense to believe this phrase is an older English way of saying Jesus was unique. He was not like Adam or Isaiah or Ezra or anyone else.

  71. And lets not forget that everybody who was somebody at that time was the son of some God or other.
    Julius Ceasar for example claimed he was the son of Venus. It was not exactly rare to claim to be the son of god, more like the usual thing to do.

    As is being born from a virgin. Definitely the thing to do if you wanted to make any headway in religions.

    And for good measure, so was waking up from the dead. The place must have been swarming with zombies.

  72. And btw, giving birth to a huge whopping baby probably does away with virginity too.

  73. They are a mess because they don’t understand freedom and equality. I don’t know what will happen in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, but I doubt if it will be a Western style democracy that respects human rights. Islam and Muslims are incapable of allowing free thought and equality – that is against Islam and 99% of Muslims are afraid of being “against Islam”.

    ————————————————————

    Its completely bullshit vomited out of some mouth due frustration and sleepless nights caused by hatred.

    Hehe..Islam is against equality? Millions from different part of world, from all races and culture do Haj every year without any discrimination. Even Christians, Jews are considered as people of Book. I know u will bring some war field verses and apply to common life i.e. a work of hollow mind?

    Is it western democracy to kill 100,000 innocents in Iraq, and rape of innocents and bombing and killing children, women?

    Burning Quran and appreciating the such hate mongers? Mass demonstration agaisnt building Masjid? Not allowing veil in work, office, University, school? Arent these basic rights?

    What kind of shit democracy u are talking about?

    I dont hate christians or Budhists. But cant digest biased attitude of people like u.
    History cant forget millions of killings of innocents ..be it Iraq, Vietnam, Hirosima, nagsaki, Holocaust against other faiths.

    May be fanatic Muslim kills 100, 1000, 10,000 but christians kills in millions.
    Keep it in mind.

  74. Also nobody made Mohammad do wars. He left Mecca of his own will after he had attacked, vandalized his neighbor’s homes and insulted them. Remember he was protected by his uncle. He went to Medina, joined his neighbor’s enemies and started attacking just about everybody. He gained supporters by offering booty, including livestock and slaves. Obviously he was a capable leader and military strategist.

    ————————————————————

    Is it ur history written by urself?

    Prophet Muhammad PBUH left Makkah (we call it Hijarat in Arabic) when he was attacked just to avoid bloodbath inspite of having enough power to face the attack. He went to Medina where He thought enemies, Pagans will not attack him and his followers. But enemy still followed them and attacked, then only Prophet Muhammad PBUH allowed to attack back for self defence but strictly ordered not to attack any innocents, women, children, animals (here u will say why Qurabani -animal sacrifice allowed and Quran is contradictory 🙂 – as expected from people like you always ). In this incident of Medina (where attackers were attacked back for self defence), a lot of verses revealed to kill/attack attackers. These verses are used by people like you to defame Islam by ignoring the context and situations.

  75. I told you I was not going to defend the Bible, and so what do you do? You post another bunch of references to the Bible (even so, like it or not, difficult verses or not, the Bible is much better prose than the Quran. Note also that the Bible is based on the concept that “sin” is bad, not just “unbelief” as in the Quran. There is a big big difference, in case you haven’t noticed). What is it, do you hate Christians? You should – obviously they must be very evil people – just look at those verses! Too bad they are not nice, tolerant people like you Muslims!

    ————————————————————
    @Jay,

    Manipulating things and showing white as black and black as blue, is ur work?

    U know what Bible says:

    The “wrath of God” is on all unbelievers. 3:36 (John)

    Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? ….. what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?(Corinthians 6:14-18)

    But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. – (Timothy 5:8)

    U will find more, do more research in ur relgion than others. I dnt attck christians or Chrisitianity or Bible but I just open closed eyes which deny to open.

  76. The fact is that you are as ignorant of the bible as the Quran. Christians can both drink wine and not circumcise. That is in the New Testament. As to wine, Muslims will get lots of it in paradise (Quran 47:15, 56:24 and 56:178-19). So why the double standard?

    ————————————————————

    Double standard?? Ehem Ehem..I agree an intelligent mind is required to distinguish between paradise, hell and worldly life.

    Can u please let me know where in New Testament says that u can drink(ok ignore wine if u want, I havent read all those discussion and links on wine) and no need to circumcise?

  77. I remember a documentary where they followed a black American convert on his first hajj, and he was deeply mortified at the discrimination which came his way during his hajj. He had not expected it. And at a certain moment it became too much for him and he moved to the tent of a group of black African Muslims, who did treat him equally.

    Muslims kill more Muslims in Irak than do the armed forces, who are not all Christian anyway, so pulling out the religion card doesn’t work here.

    It is Muslims who blow up mosques and funeral processions of other Muslims because they happen to be of another sect. Muslims send out women and retarded victims with bombs on their bodies to busy market places to kill and maim other muslims, women and children.

    And you speak of rape? Please don’t tell me Muslims don’t rape women! The Quran doesn’t even mention the word, let alone have a punishment for it.
    More over, in my opinion every woman who is forced into a marriage with a man she doesn’t know is being raped on a daily basis.
    Worse: every girl child who is sold to an old pedophile in ”marriage” is raped on a daily basis and for the rest of her life. And all perfectly legal and approved by Muslim society.

    And if Muslims have no compunction against killing other Muslims we can be quite sure they have no problems killing ”people of the book” who we must remember, Muslims curse a minimum of 17 times every day if they do their prayers properly.

    And lets not forget that as cursed as the Christians and Jews (And Muslims of other sects) are, anybody else, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, non-religious people, etc. are nothing but breathing machines and less than animals.

  78. Also I have a question for you.
    Would you kindly explain Quran verse 9:107. It is about your prophet sending people to attack a mosque (at Dhu Awan) because of their “unbelief”. You can start by explaining how this is compatible with the Quran verse 3:20. If they didn’t believe, why did Mohammad violate “No compulsion in religion” verse? While you are at it, you might want to explain the morality of a man sending forces to attack a Masjid built “for the weak and ill persons on rainy nights” (tabari) which was filled with women and children.

    ————————————————————

    There is no contradictory at all. Off course “No compulsion in religion” verse is there in Quran also but

    Building a mosque for worshipping is different thing and building a fake structure with intention to destroy others is different thing. Here is complete verses, u need to understand in context:

    [9:107] Then there are others who have set up a mosque to hurt the True Faith, to promote unbelief, and cause division among believers, and as an ambush for one who had earlier made war on Allah and His Messenger. They will surely swear: “We intended nothing but good,” whereas Allah bears witness that they are liars. وَالَّذِيۡنَ اتَّخَذُوۡا مَسۡجِدًا ضِرَارًا وَّكُفۡرًا وَّتَفۡرِيۡقًۢا بَيۡنَ الۡمُؤۡمِنِيۡنَ وَاِرۡصَادًا لِّمَنۡ حَارَبَ اللّٰهَ وَرَسُوۡلَهٗ مِنۡ قَبۡلُ‌ؕ وَلَيَحۡلِفُنَّ اِنۡ اَرَدۡنَاۤ اِلَّا الۡحُسۡنٰى‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ يَشۡهَدُ اِنَّهُمۡ لَـكٰذِبُوۡنَ‏ ﴿9:107﴾
    [9:108] Never stand therein. Surely a mosque founded from the first day on piety is more worthy that you should stand in it for Prayer. In it are people who love to purify themselves, and Allah loves those that purify themselves.102 لَا تَقُمۡ فِيۡهِ اَبَدًا ‌ؕ لَمَسۡجِدٌ اُسِّسَ عَلَى التَّقۡوٰى مِنۡ اَوَّلِ يَوۡمٍ اَحَقُّ اَنۡ تَقُوۡمَ فِيۡهِ‌ؕ فِيۡهِ رِجَالٌ يُّحِبُّوۡنَ اَنۡ يَّتَطَهَّرُوۡا ‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ يُحِبُّ الۡمُطَّهِّرِيۡنَ‏ ﴿9:108﴾
    [9:109] Is he, then, who has erected his structure on the fear of Allah and His good pleasure better, or he who erects his structure on the brink of a crumbling bank,103 so that it crumbles down with him into the Hell-Fire? Allah does not bestow His Guidance on the wrong-doing folk.104 اَفَمَنۡ اَسَّسَ بُنۡيَانَهٗ عَلٰى تَقۡوٰى مِنَ اللّٰهِ وَرِضۡوَانٍ خَيۡرٌ اَمۡ مَّنۡ اَسَّسَ بُنۡيَانَهٗ عَلٰى شَفَا جُرُفٍ هَارٍ فَانۡهَارَ بِهٖ فِىۡ نَارِ جَهَـنَّمَ‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ لَا يَهۡدِى الۡقَوۡمَ الظّٰلِمِيۡنَ‏ ﴿9:109﴾
    [9:110] And the structure which they have erected will ever inspire their hearts with doubts unless it be that their very hearts are cut into pieces.105 Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. لَا يَزَالُ بُنۡيَانُهُمُ الَّذِىۡ بَنَوۡا رِيۡبَةً فِىۡ قُلُوۡبِهِمۡ اِلَّاۤ اَنۡ تَقَطَّعَ قُلُوۡبُهُمۡ‌ؕ وَاللّٰهُ عَلِيۡمٌ حَكِيۡمٌ‏ ﴿9:110﴾

  79. 1) How can you call Jesus PBUH a “begetted son of God” when begets means “to have sex to produce kids”? Did God do sex with Virgin Mary to give birth to Jesus PBUH?

    1. The Christian god does not need to have sex to make people. He is god, remember – you know, all-powerful, the Creator. Maybe the Mohammedan god can’t do anything, but the Bible says “with God all things are possible”. From a more scriptural view I would argue that Isaiah (Old Testament) that “a virgin shall conceive” and have a child, to be called “Emanuel, meaning God with us. Yes, I am aware that the Hebrew word is “young girl” or “damsel” but the context is about the kind asking for an extraordinary miracle, and that would mean a virgin birth. The Hebrew Septuagint translates the word as “virgin”. The New Testament says that Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I must confess that I don’t understand all the implications of this, or even the concept of Trinity, but I also don’t quite understand how microwave radiations alters the chemistry of the cell, but the darn oven works anyway.

    ————————————————————

    Alas!!! I expected that u will understand my question.

    Of course dude, God didnt do sex to give birth to Jesus PBUH. I said the same thing but asked u a question on this. Then why this “begetted son”? Why Jesus PBUH is called “begotten son of God” when there is nothing begetting? When there is no sexual activity for the birth of Jesus PBUH?

    Beget means – make children by sex, procreate, biological process to create babies.

  80. 2) Agreed, Jesus PBUH was born without a father and so Christians call him Son of God, in that case Adam was born without both father and mother, wont Adam PBUH wont be greater, bigger son of God? What is the brainwashed and misinterpreted logic?

    The Bible never calls Adam the “Son of God”, nor does it insinuate that he was eternal (The “I am” theology) or that Adam was part of God (‘I and the Father are one”). I guess that under your logic, Allah had sex with somebody to produce Adam. Anyway, this was before my time, and I don’t remember it.

    ————————————————————

    Jay,

    Again… I know Bible never calls Adam the “Son of God”. Why Jesus who was born without a father is called “Son of God”?

    All are creators of God…may be u call God is father of all..Jesus PBUH is not exception…all prophets, messengers also should be son of GOd. Why only Jesus PBUH is son of God?

  81. As to the sex thing, the answer is “I have no idea”. The New Testament specifically condemns adultery and fornication, and says that those who do those things will not make it past the pearly gates. Of course, your prophet can have sex with “slave girls” (as Aisha tells us), outside of marriage obviously, yet that is fine and dandy with you. So get off the high horse of virtue and put your feet on the ground before condemning others for illicit sex.

    ————————————————————

    @Jay,

    “I have no idea”…Hmmmmm nice to know.
    The New Testament specifically condemns adultery and fornication. But its norm to have sex outside marriage, to have sex with boy freind, girl friend right? That to without repentence?

    See “Moment of Truth” – a live TV program in America. U will get better ideas about real life.

    Unlike Muslims, u cant never reply something without attacking Muslims/Islam right?
    I do not know where Aisha tells u that Muhammad had sex with slaves.

    We discussed in this topic in details. I am bored to death to repeat and I have some other better things to do than discussing of crappy things repeatedly.

  82. You now, MD, I wonder why Muslims like you spend so much time on the difficult parts of the Bible or go into hysterics over obscure theology and demand absolute logic, morality and coherence, yet when it comes to the Quran and your dear prophet, none of this matters. Why? They have a saying in Brazil that says “Pimenta no cu dos outros nao doi”. That is basically your position. I can’t translate that because it is not nice.

    ————————————————————

    @Jay,
    U have to ask it urself and people like u? I just replied recently to ur non-stop propaganda and biased info on Islam. How many Muslims abuse, discuss christianity, Bible, Christians or any other relgion unlike non-Muslims like u do ?

    For how long u have been in this business of Islam and Muslim bashing?

  83. Aafke-Art, on February 28, 2011 at 1:44 pm said:

    I remember a documentary where they followed a black American convert on his first hajj, and he was deeply mortified at the discrimination which came his way during his hajj. He had not expected it. And at a certain moment it became too much for him and he moved to the tent of a group of black African Muslims, who did treat him equally.

    ———————————————————

    There are millions ..millions of pilgrimmage. Of course there may be dacoits, murderers who call themselves Muslims and who were born in Muslim also.
    I agree it may happen even though I never heard of it. But, concept is all should be welcomed without discrimination.

    Muslims kill more Muslims in Irak than do the armed forces, who are not all Christian anyway, so pulling out the religion card doesn’t work here.

    It is Muslims who blow up mosques and funeral processions of other Muslims because they happen to be of another sect. Muslims send out women and retarded victims with bombs on their bodies to busy market places to kill and maim other muslims, women and children.
    ————————————————————————

    Agreed, but never before US infiltration in Iraq right?

    We have a saying in India, “Divide and rule policy”. This policy was played by Britishers to rule India (collectively India+pakistan+Bangaldesh at that time). But to rule such a huge India, Britishes had to create enmity among Indians based on relgion, region, place and make them fight.
    Thus, small group of Britishers could rule India for 200 years and finally they broke India into pieces. Now India, Pakistan, Bangladesh.

    This is what happend in today’s democratic Iraq created by US by killing 100,000 of innocents, childre, women and making a land of prostitutes for survival.

    Same thing of sectarian killing is happening in Pakistan, you know who does? Its Taliban and theri affiliates.
    And who created, financed and trained Taliban?

    Just like the country of Taliban was bombed and killed innocents and destroyed their homes, is it acceptable to bomb the country which created Taliban and kill innocent children, women and destroy their homes?

    In between, I will love to see if u find out who brings relgion first in this topic or any other topic.

    Also u will love to see christian missionary sponsored terrorism in North East India.
    Search “NSCN terrorists in India” or “christian terrorists in India” in google.

    And you speak of rape? Please don’t tell me Muslims don’t rape women! The Quran doesn’t even mention the word, let alone have a punishment for it.
    More over, in my opinion every woman who is forced into a marriage with a man she doesn’t know is being raped on a daily basis.
    Worse: every girl child who is sold to an old pedophile in ”marriage” is raped on a daily basis and for the rest of her life. And all perfectly legal and approved by Muslim society.
    ————————————————————————-

    Society is made by man. I hope u also will agree this. And a man can do anything. U heard about 18 years of rape by Christian father in Austria and Australia?
    But, do we have to blame Christianity or these crminals who were born in Christian family?

    As per Islam forced marriage is not allowed:

    MARRIAGE WITHOUT GIRLS’ CONSENT IS INVALID

    Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya: that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah’s Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid. (Book #62, Hadith #69)

    GIRLS’S PERMISSION AND ACCEPTANCE ON MARRIAGE:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! How can we know her permission?” He said, “Her silence (indicates her permission).” (Book #62, Hadith #67)

    WOMEN CAN PROPOSE MEN SHE LIKES IN ISLAM

    Narrated Thabit Al-Banani: I was with Anas while his daughter was present with him. Anas said, “A woman came to Allah’s Apostle and presented herself to him, saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle, have you any need for me (i.e. would you like to marry me)?’ “Thereupon Anas’s daughter said, “What a shameless lady she was ! Shame! Shame!” Anas said, “She was better than you; she had a liking for the Prophet so she presented herself for marriage to him.” (Book #62, Hadith #53)

    sahih al bukhari.

    And if Muslims have no compunction against killing other Muslims we can be quite sure they have no problems killing ”people of the book” who we must remember, Muslims curse a minimum of 17 times every day if they do their prayers properly.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-

    heheh…. 17 times cursing? I know how people survive on propaganda and trut on it. There are so many converts, ask them if they also curse non-Muslims 🙂
    May be Carol, her husband, and her husband’s family also cursed non-Muslims? “Confirm before trusting and spreding something” (QUran )

    What non-Muslim think is different thing but what Muslims are taught is different thing.

    Can Muslim disrespect and steal from Non-Muslim?
    http://www.zawaj.com/askbilqis/is-it-okay-for-muslims-to-disrespect-and-steal-from-non-muslims/

    And lets not forget that as cursed as the Christians and Jews (And Muslims of other sects) are, anybody else, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, non-religious people, etc. are nothing but breathing machines and less than animals.
    —————————————————————————————————
    As per who? Bible or Quran or ur opinion?

  84. @Jay,

    Convey my greetings and happy belated B’day to ur dad.

  85. susanne430, on February 25, 2011 at 4:41 pm said:

    Jay, I enjoyed your answers. You actually remembered quite a bit from Sunday School! 🙂 Maybe MD is still processing all you said or working on answers for you.
    ——————————————————————

    susanne, I dnt need much time to answer questions but I need the opportunity to open the site where I have to wrack key board 🙂

  86. MD AZAD ALI SHAH

    The link you provided above is less than convincing. Have you read it? All it is saying is that the drunk on the street can’t be treated with disrespect because THEY MIGHT BE A POTENTIAL CANDIDATE FOR ISLAM. They didn’t say that the person should not be disrespected because he is a human being regardless of what his faith is and as such deserves to be treated with dignity even though he is a drunk. Again, it is all about Islam and the potential to gain a convert. In Christianity we are commanded to do kind to the “least of our brothers”. It doesn’t say we are to look at them as potential Christians. There are many many Chrisitian organizations who reach out and help people of all faiths and DO NOT try to convert them. I am sure there are others that do but MANY treat others and help because they are a human being in need of help. This is the problem I have with your link….it isn’t about helping an unfortunate person out of the goodness of your heart (or out of the goodness of Islam). It is about helping them with an eye to potentially convert. It is help with strings attached…no thanks…no one needs help like that. If you are going to help you must do it the way Jesus says and that is help for the sake of helping your “brother” whether he/she be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist looking for nothing more than the joy and blessings of helping someone. Otherwise your help is not truly help, but an incentive in hopes to gain something. That kind of “help” has a selfish purpose behind it. (a potential convert to Islam).

  87. MD AZAD ALI SHAH, good that you finally were able to open the sites, get your keyboard working or whatever! I thought maybe you’d come back because I remembered you sometimes disappear for a few days and then come back. 🙂

    RE: ALCOHOL

    You really need to read the link I gave you re: alcohol in the Bible. You want answers, but don’t want to read a balanced report on this topic. It even supplies the relevant verses so you can read them for yourself if you want. It shows verses that speak of alcohol negatively as well as neutrally. It’s good to read so you can make up your own mind on this topic. It’s not so cut and dry as “Thou shalt not drink alcohol or even use vanilla extract flavoring so you won’t consume alcohol in your baked goods.” There is strong talk against drunkenness, but that’s not the same as having a drink or two now and then. That said,I know plenty of people who refrain from drinking alcohol entirely such as myself. Although I do use vanilla flavoring despite its high alcohol content! 😉

    On to a few other topics you mentioned:

    RE: CIRCUMCISION

    Circumcision was done to symbolize the covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants most notably the children of Israel. When Gentiles were brought into the new covenant the Jews wondered if Gentiles had to become Jews physically (by being physically circumcised) or whether it were a spiritual matter (circumcision of the heart). Based on how God was revealing Himself to non-Jews and not stipulating that they had to obey the Mosaic Law and be circumcised the need for circumcision of followers of Jesus was done away with. (see Acts 15)

    RE: ADULTERY/FORNICATION

    You stated:

    “The New Testament specifically condemns adultery and fornication. But its norm to have sex outside marriage, to have sex with boy freind, girl friend right? That to without repentence?”

    Just because someone does something that has become “normal” to society’s standards doesn’t mean it’s right in God’s eyes. There are a number of things people do that is right in their own eyes that is not right in front of a holy God. Just as some Muslims don’t do their five prayers and live in the West and drink alcohol, go to clubs and have sex outside of marriage, there are also Christians who do the same. It doesn’t mean its right. It’s just how people choose to live.

  88. MD AZAD ALI SHAH, one last comment for you for now.

    RE: ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    You wrote to Jay:

    “All are creators of God…may be u call God is father of all..Jesus PBUH is not exception…all prophets, messengers also should be son of GOd. Why only Jesus PBUH is son of God?”

    ———————————————————————————————————————————————–

    Jesus is not the only son of God.

    You made me curious about the Greek word behind “only begotten son” (John 3:16) and I thought this was interesting. It also discusses other “sons of God” mentioned in the Bible.

    “The Greek word for “only begotten” is monogenes, the very form of which clearly denotes “only generated.” As monotheism connotes only one God and monosyllable means a word of only one syllable, so monogenes means only one genesis or only one generated–or, more simply, only begotten. It does not mean “one,” or even “one and only.” It is worth noting that, although Christ is called the Son, or Son of God, frequently in the New Testament, He is never (in the Greek original) called the “only” son of God.

    The fact is, that to call Him the only Son of God would make the Bible contradict itself, for He is not the only Son of God, and certainly not the “one and only” Son of God. Angels are several times called the sons of God (e.g., Job 38:7) since they had no fathers, being directly created by God. Likewise, Adam was called the son of God (Luke 3:38), because he was directly created. The same applies even to fallen angels (Genesis 6:2), and even to Satan (Job 1:6), because they also were created beings. The term is also used in a spiritual sense, of course, for those who have become “new creations” in Christ Jesus by faith (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; etc.). In this sense, we also are “sons of God” (e.g., I John 3:2) by special creation?not physically but spiritually.

    But it is never applied in this sense to Christ, for He is not a created son of God (as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cultists teach), but a begotten Son of God–in fact, the only begotten Son of God. He never had a beginning, for He was there in the beginning (John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5).”

  89. ‘Agreed, but never before US infiltration in Iraq right?’

    Who was it that gassed all those Kurds in Northern Iraq when Saddam was in power?

  90. @Aafke – do you have a link for the documentary of the American muslim? I would welcome a chance to view it.

    @MD – I know I am off topic but perhaps you can help me… I remember visiting a place a few hours away from New Delhi where some of the oldest Qurans (in India) were held. If I recall, some of them were also written in Persian. The illustrations and calligraphy were amazing. This area is known for going and visiting to see the calligraphy and the antique Qurans which were in display cases. I hate it when I can’t remember these kind of things….(sigh)

  91. Thank you, MD, for the Bday wishes for dad.

    I will tell him a True Blue Muslim sent him greetings, just to hear him growl. One thing that has changed between him and me in the last 10 years is that we are now equals (almost). I can say things to him I would never have said 50, 40, 10 or even 20 years ago. I guess it is because I am old too, grey hair, bald and all that, or maybe he has mellowed. Dad is the old puritan type with little patience for foolishness while I am like my Mom and grandfather – easy going.

    In this business (islam is evil, inc) … about 8 years. I think the farthest I go back online is here:
    http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3447&page=0#9922

    There may be some around before that but under my real name, john. I had to change my name because some people threaten to kill me and my family. Damn Quakers!

    I do this for two reasons: 1. because I believe Muslims need to hear an informed contrary opinion (that would be me) and 2. because it amuses me. Muslims really have some screwed up ideas and they can be entertaining. Oh yes, I used to debate and it is kind of hobby.

    Of course, I didn’t start ‘this business” until I was pretty sure that I need more about Islam than 99% of Muslims. It is very difficult to find a Muslims that can accurately quote Islamic dogmna.

    You don’t have to answer my question if you don’t want to. I have asked other Muslims about those verses, but no takers. As to the Bible, I will leave you in Suzanne’s capable hands.

    Google did me in. I ran a search for “son of god” and “sons of god” with “Old testament” in that search engine and I didn’t see the Job verse listed in the first two pages. Of course, I remember that Satan goes to the throne of god and asks permission to test old Job – and some test it turned out to be “Curse god and die”.

    Yes, Islamic calligraphy is amazing – every letter a work of art.

    Well, MD, I have to pay bills. Why why why? Why do they keep sending me bills for electricity, cars, water, etc???

    I really have to go…. Tkle care.

  92. Oby,

    I replied to Aafke’s statement that Muslims curse non-Muslims 17 times. Can u imagine such concept and thinking of people and living with such idea?

    U missed to see the statement in the link, “The Messenger of Allah said, “Spread peace and feed the people.” That’s Islam!” – direct statement of prophet Muyahmmad SAW but u see the opinion of the questioner.

    Muslims do not help just for the sake of conversion. And we do not follow what an Imam or religious leader say. An imam is not constitution of Islam. We are advised to follow Quran and reliable Hadith in context. An imam can be a 3rd class passed just like an engineer can pass with margin.

    U can not deny the aim of missionaries with whooping money distribution to those who convert. Muslims never give money to convert but I dnt deny that some can show mercy to convert. Now u can show which one is more malicious.. I will not deny truth. If u dnt trust me, ask ur Indian husband abt role of christian missionaries in India. They convert 1000,0000s of poor people by giving money…money to convert but not help. Howver I dnt have any issue on that. I am just telling truth. Religion should be followed from heart but not be sold or bought by money.

    U can see here:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=Christian+distributing+money+to+convert&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=v3h&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=X&ei=svxtTbSTOMGa8QPm_K3qDg&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQBSgA&q=Christian+missionaries+distributing+money+to&spell=1&fp=a10a067e20ab88d3

    Its advised not to take help from christians in India..becoz their purpose is to convert..its burning issue here with some communal group attaching christian missinaries. For me its personal choice..u convert for money or some1 shows mercy.

  93. Adam was called the son of God (Luke 3:38), because he was directly created.

    ——————————————————-
    @Sussane,

    As per Jay, Bible never calls Adam son of God (his previous post). And he claim to be master of all relgions 🙂

    Anyway, thanks a lot for the explanation in plain way without attacking others. This should be the way to discuss in healthy way. I really appreciate ur reply even though I fail to get reply in the way I expect.

    ADULTARY:

    Well, I agree ur point that many muslims also do adultary and drink so and so just like so many christians do. This is what I wanted to convey that human being can do anything he/she likes and give excuse to justify his acts and can even use relgion for his personal interest.

    CIRCUMCISION:

    Regarding circumsion, I will be happy if u share any verses from Bible which says that circumcision is not necessary inspite of being a teaching/trait of prophet Jesus PBUH.

    BEGOTTEN:

    U give emphsis on the word “only” or “son of God”. I already accepted that somehow all are creators of God…or u say we are all sons/daughters of God. No problem in that sense.

    Problem comes when it is said “Begotten” son. Begot, beget literally means to give baby by “sexual” intercourse. What u say?

  94. Lynn, on February 28, 2011 at 7:12 pm said:

    ‘Agreed, but never before US infiltration in Iraq right?’

    Who was it that gassed all those Kurds in Northern Iraq when Saddam was in power?
    =====================================

    I will be happy if u understand the question and answers in context.

    Was it between common people or done by a dicttator?
    Saddam was one dictator who killed A FEW HUNDRED people ..not particularly kurd or shia or sunni..any1 agaisnt his rule including his own son in law.

    Did u hear any bombing before US infiltration in Iraq? Any sectarian violence? Do u know the real creator of terrorists, sectarian violence now?

    And Dictator Saddam was real friend of US and US supported Saddam during 8 years Iraq-Iran war. U know divide and rule policy to grab power? Or u “Live in Denial”?

  95. @MD – I know I am off topic but perhaps you can help me… I remember visiting a place a few hours away from New Delhi where some of the oldest Qurans (in India) were held. If I recall, some of them were also written in Persian. The illustrations and calligraphy were amazing. This area is known for going and visiting to see the calligraphy and the antique Qurans which were in display cases. I hate it when I can’t remember these kind of things….(sigh)
    =====================================

    I am really not sure what u are referring. But let me give some possible names… Qutub Minar, Taj Mahal (not in Delhi), Red Fort, Ajmer Sharief (Not in Delhi ), Buland Darwaja. Sorry I am not able to give u direct name.

    In between, India has a very mixed and rich culture of persians, Turkish, Arabs, Protugese (in south), British. Its really amazing to see the architects of Muslim Mughal kings 500 years ago like Taj Mahal, Qutub Minar ..to mention a few.

  96. @Jay,

    I just asked sarcastically- ” for how long u have been in Islam/Muslim bashing business?”. But its shocking to see ur confession that u have been in this business of hate campaign for 8 years and ur life is hijacked by hatred.

    Well, I could just clicked the link of ur hate campain. LInk says “there is no fatwa against terrorist/Osama. But reality is something else but hate marketing have overshadowed good things:

    Have a look “Fatwa against Osama/Terrorist”:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=%22Fatwa+against+terrororist%2FOsama%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=rR3&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&q=Fatwa+against+Osama+%2B+Fatwa+against+terrorism&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=46e19553f53293f3

    This shows that u are part of liers and who spread hatred, violence and wrong info to misguide people and make river of blood.

    Title of your link is: “Justifying rape?….”:

    But reality is something else:

    “4 Pakistani Men Hanged for Raping (Christian) Woman”

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1659194/posts

    Also

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=%22Fatwa+against+terrororist%2FOsama%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=6T3&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&q=Hanged+for+rape&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=46e19553f53293f3

    Congratulations of ur mission of hate propaganda and lies. Alas if u are a true Christian. Bible doesnt teach lies and hate (I am not sure how u misinterpret to justify ur personal heinous acts and out of context).

    Personally, I argued with u on Bible to teach u a lesson and convey that “Asking question is easy”, “To portray bad thing and hide good thing is easy”, “To misinterpret a verse out of context is easy”.

    I m sure u never met or did friendship with any Muslim in ur real life apart from seeing and hearing Osam Bin Laden, some bomber. That is the problem of many in Arab and western countries..they never see or meet any person of different faith. But luckily in place where I live – India, Singapore, Malaysia we live togather, we tease each other, we respect each other, we eat togather and so we dont form negative opinion about others based on relgion. Of course u will find radical and communal people too but very rare.

    U said I hate christians and can even kill non-Muslims.

    Belive or not, I respect all human being on earth and dont even hate even a single person in my life ..even those who try to harm me or back biting behind me.. I even dont hate criminals, murderer but I hate the bad act – act of murdering, act of killing, act of lying (that u are doing), act of spreading hate every moment, night and day (like u are doing). I hate bad action but not the doer.

    Because any person can become a good person the day he realise that he is doing bad thing.

    I respect Bible and respect all religion, all human being on earth. I also respect u (contrary to what u think) and dnt hate u for a moment even though I dnt like the negative mission of urs.

    Also I am sad to see that Carol created this forum with good intention but its turning into a hate spreading platform day by day. I feel pity on those who enjoy Islam/Muslim bashing, how they will enjoy when every other Muslim try to ignore posts and leave such a beautiful forum.

    Jay, a small suggestion from my side – better if u stop taking and seeing things always as Muslim Vs Non-Muslim. It will make ur life beautiful at ur old age (as u said u are already quite old). My suggestion will make u sleep nicely. Everything is not alwasy Muslim Vs Non-Muslims.
    There are 1.55 billion Muslims and u will find millions of peace loving Muslims even though a few hundreds, thousands, or say millions spread hatred and violence. Just like u will get millions of peace loving christians, HIndus. Its not right thing to paint every1 with same brush.

    I will try to ignore ur posts, as such posts try to give a negative impression, and try to change my mind that I do not like.

    Have a nice day and no hard feeling plz 🙂

  97. @MD,

    Thanks for your response…no, it was none of the places you mentioned which coincidentally I had been to all of those. I’m having a bit of chemo brain and still trying to remember the town. I went there on a trip with an Art and Cultural Organization.

  98. Hi Carol,

    Is it Nizamuddin Dargah?

    I am so sorry that I am not able to tell u right name/place.

    May be I myself havent visited the place. U will be surprised to know that I visited Taj mahal just 3 years back due to nagging of my parents. Sometimes we ignore places near to us thinking that we can visit anytime but fail to visit.

    u can browse and give me some tips so that I can find out the exact name

  99. @Md,

    Thanks so much for your help. I’ve been looking at the map myself and my chemo brain is just not letting me remember. I hate when that happens….c’est la vie.

    My late husband said he never saw or learned so much about his own country until he married me! I love exploring wherever I am!

  100. Am a muslim schooling @ university of ilorin,nigeria as a mechanical engineer 300 level.i wud like to know if there is any help u can offer me because i wants to school in a muslim country.thanks

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