USA/Saudi Arabia: New Book Explores Lives of American-Born Muslim Women

AB comment: The timing of this upcoming book release is very pertinent when taking into account the evolving events around the Muslim world.  This book provides insights into the lives of AMERICAN born Muslim women and perhaps can help bridge the gap of misunderstanding in the United States towards Muslims.

 

WASHINGTON D.C. USA – February 28, 2011 – Islam has become one of the hottest of hot button topics in America. Time Magazine featured the rise of Islamophobia on its cover (August 30, 2010) and attacks on Muslims and mosques are taking place regularly across the United States. Pundits and politicians raise the stakes by questioning whether it is possible for an American to be both a good Muslim and a good citizen. Muslim American women are the subject of endless discussions regarding their role in society, their veils as symbols of oppression or of freedom, their identity and their patriotism.

 

In this polarized climate, a new book challenges stereotypes about being Muslim in America through the stories of forty women. I Speak for Myself: American Women on Being Muslim (May 2, 2011, White Cloud Press) brings together a diverse group of women, all born and raised in the United States, telling their stories of faith, family, and country.

 

The book editors are Maria Ebrahimji, executive editorial producer at CNN in Atlanta, and Zahra Suratwala, a writer and editor who owns Zahra Ink, a writing firm in Chicago. The editors want to fill a gap in current literature on American Islam by bringing out the stories of American-born Muslim women between the ages of 20 and 40. Ebrahimji notes that “As a member of the mainstream media, I am frequently exposed to the stereotyping of my faith, and this book was created to present the public with more candid, realistic portraits of a diverse group of women who are proud of their faith and their country.”

 

Readers of I Speak for Myself are presented with a kaleidoscope of deeply personal stories. A common theme linking these intimate self-portraits is the way each woman uniquely defies labeling, simply by defining for herself what it means to be American and Muslim and female. Each story is a contribution to the larger narrative of life stories and life work of a new generation of Muslim women.

Though the book’s official release date is May 2, it is currently available now for pre-order on Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble and White Cloud Press. The suggested retail price is $16.95.

 

The book has already caught the attention of thought leaders who are calling the book an important addition to the literature on religious pluralism

in America.

 

Jim Wallis, founder of the Sojourners magazine and faith community calls I Speak for Myself “a very important contribution to the growing interfaith dialogue in this country.”

Her Majesty Queen Noor notes that “By telling their stories they offer us new perspectives that are vital to the peace building process, and through their honesty and courage they are making a lasting contribution to the search for cross-cultural understanding.”

Zainab Salbi, founder of Women for Women International says that this is “a must read for anyone curious to understand Islam from a woman’s and an American-Muslim perspective. I Speak for Myself is the story of every woman embodied in voices of today’s American Muslim woman.”

Bestselling author and school builder Greg Mortenson (Three Cups of Tea) feels that “this collection of essays . . . is empowering and inspiring, and a vital part of any education.”

“In an era where women’s empowerment is essential, these are women who have the ability, through their stories and their work, to empower women all over the world to truly speak for themselves.” Muhammad Yunus, Nobel Peace Prize Winner & Founder, Grameen Bank

For more information and dialogue on our book and American Muslim women, please join us at www.facebook.com/ispeakformyself, www.twitter.com/ispeakformyself and our website, www.ispeakformyself.com.

 

Media Contact: Lisa Mabe, Hewar Social Communications, +1 202.834.4498 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +1 202.834.4498      end_of_the_skype_highlighting, lisa@hewarcommunications.com

 

Advertisements

184 Responses

  1. Thank you for highlighting this book. I will reserve my copy straightaway.

  2. Sounds like an interesting book to read! Will it be available as an e-book for kindle/nook/etc. devices?

    I read “Why I am a Muslim” by Asma Gull Hasan, and really enjoyed it, too. “Why I am a Muslim” is part of a series of books about different religions. I may come back to the series to read about the other religions included in the series when I have more free time. I also read some of the one on Buddhism, but it moves a little more slowly at the beginning.

  3. Quote: attacks on Muslims and mosques are taking place regularly across the United States

    Oh? You mean converts attacking other Muslims, like the most recent case? I would like a list of these attacks. Then we can compare “our” attacks with “Muslim” attacks….

    I personally do not believe that Muslims – those who submit to Islam and believe that Mohammad is a great moral example – share our values. I think that the Quran, history and current events support this judgement. Collectively, Muslims will either try to impose their values or subjugate others.

    I assume that the word “attack” is really about “criticism”… So any criticism of Islam, Muslims or their dear prophet is now an ‘attack’… ?

    I am going to be hard about this, because this is a serious issue and deserves honesty.

    Muslims, those in the Middle East in revolt, and even those nice sweet American lady converts mentioned above, do not deserve democracy and/or human rights – until they respect others and treat them like human beings, not dhimmni. These are hard words but they have a clear basis in reality and fact. Those sweet “I Speak for Myself” ladies obviously have no trouble with murder, plunder, slavery, torture or rape, because they bless those who did those things. At most, to them, those things are only bad in some situations, depending on who does them to whom.

    No, we do not mistreat them, we just shouldn’t believe them when their profess that they share our values or want to ‘contribute’ to society. Well, maybe they are contributing with other things.

    And so it is. There is no “American narrative” of Islam, only an ‘Islamic narrative’ of islam. It is just a matter of numbers. Already we see in the US an effort to prevent an criticism , er , I mean attack, on Islam. This with the help of the liberal media, academia and our own government – all of which obviously give little value to our freedoms.

    And as our eyes turn to the peoples of Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Yemen and other countries, we wish them the best – but cold facts say the best will not happen. So far, after weeks of revolt, we have seen a few steps forward and a few backward. I don’t know what will happen, but it will not be a democracy that respects human rights or allows basic freedom of speech and conscience. As I said, Muslims do not deserve the benefits of those until they renouce hate and violence against non-Muslims and actually change their behavior. Of course, this doesn’t depend upon my opinion, or us, or the West – it is in their hands…. Watch them screw it up.

    Perhaps maybe somebody should explain to Muslims that all those things we collectively ca;; “human rights” are not achievable without the ability to have an opinion against islam or the ability to criticize Mohammad, the Quran and the actions of Muslims. Duhhhh!

    Well, that was pretty mean, but somebody has to tell it like it is.

  4. Jay K.

    The expat muslims I’ve met in the Middle East are as different as night and day– just as the Christians are in the USA and all over the world. Are some Muslims, Jews, and Christians (etc.) deviants? Yes. That’s why our country (USA) has a fantastic judicial system to enforce the laws of the land, hopefully no matter what our religious beliefs are.

    But, we Americans are known to take ‘mob’ action against AMERICAN groups of people whenever news pops up against them. Past examples; blacks, jews, Japanese, Asians, gays, Arabs, etc.

    What about the gangs that rule the streets in many of our neighborhoods in the US? What about all of the poor black and white children dying each and every day because they can’t escape the poverty of their situation? And, they are begging for help.

    What would happen overnight if the American people were informed that these gangs were actually Muslims selling our children guns and drugs and running rampant on the streets? Don’t you think there would be a national outcry against all of the people who are shot each and everyday if the Muslims were doing the shooting? How ignorant and perverted the media has made us.

    Why aren’t the Christians, Baptists, Methodists, Jews, etc. apologising for the terrible and anti-American behavior being done in OUR OWN country? Should we take the freedom away from all of those groups because some of their members belong to these deviant gangs? Or do we judge each and every one of them according to their own behavior.

    Sorry, but I think that YOU, and others like you, are the ones that needs to appologise for your narrowminded thinking.

  5. Carol,

    Thanks for posting this new book. I can’t wait to read it.

  6. @Jay
    “Well, that was pretty mean, but somebody has to tell it like it is.”

    I can’t have the same tired old conversations again. But you are right about one thing- it was pretty mean. And I’m still laughing about the telling it “like it is”. You’ve shown no ability to think in other than black and white or to use any critical thinking skills whatsoever, if it might lead you to a conclusion other than your previously determined one.

    Ultimately what you say will have no influence on extreme Muslims, and will put off the moderate, liberal and every other kind of ones. The only people you can hope to influence with your “factual” dribble is the non-Muslim people you might influence to hate Muslims. I doubt very much you’ll “open anyone’s eyes” except to reinforce their already held hatreds, or maybe gain some new recruits.

    And it surprises me not at all that you are unaware of violence against Muslims and Mosques in America. Unlike you I am against ALL violence. You seem to think that since there is Islamic terrorism- this is no big deal. Whatever. I respect the laws of the US and hope everyone is punished to the extent of the law. Living someplace without due process, I suppose makes me appreciate it a bit more.

    Anyway, as someone who lives where there is no free speech it seems like an awful waste to use it only to stir up hate. But if that’s how you want to use your right, squander away.

  7. “Islam has become one of the hottest of hot button topics in America. Time Magazine featured the rise of Islamophobia on its cover (August 30, 2010) and attacks on Muslims and mosques are taking place regularly across the United States.”

    Does anyone check statistics? Bias crimes against Muslims are far less common than bias crimes against African Americans and Jews. It is one thing to state the many Americans despise Islam and are worried about Muslims, but it is quite another to make it sound as if attacks against Muslims are common.

  8. But Jay said it was the religion which is at fault. The teachings of the religion, not the people. of course there are huge differences in people, and many religious people are lovely people. despite their religions teachings.

    But when you go down to the bare bones of the religion I do wonder very much why western women would choose to ally themselves to religions which despise women?
    Did they read everything? Did they get to hear a sugarcoated version?
    There are much nicer religions to choose from.

    And I actually do think Muslims are at fault, on top of the nasty teachings of their religion.
    You need two women to testify against one man. So women are half as good as men. A man can be married to four women (and he can have sex with as many slaves he can afford) Women can only be married to one man and she can not have sex with slaves they own. That makes women worth only 1/4 than men… etc.
    Now the Bible is quite nasty too, and both religions don’t even punish rape, on the contrary they allow it in the case of slaves, and they both condone slavery too.

    These acts are considered crimes in modern advanced societies. So what do the believers do with these writings? how are they incorporated into their societies and what effect do they have on peoples lives?

    In secular Western countries slavery is definitely ”out”, rape is punished, women have equal rights by law, people are not forced into dress codes, people of other religions are free to worship and build places of worship, they are protected by law. Best is the American constitution which guarantees freedom of religion for everybody.

    of course Muslim countries are not all the same, but the more religious the leadership the nastier it gets, especially for women. in Iran you need three women to testify against one man. A virgin can not be put to death, but a quick rape takes care of that little problem. In Saudi Arabia there is now another rape victim who is being punished with imprisonment and torture for her ‘ crime”. They still hunt witches and kill innocent people accused of witchcraft,
    Ten year old girls get sold to geriatric pedophiles. There is no freedom of religion, people of other religions get discriminated big time, or are not allowed to practice at all.
    Apostates are killed, as instructed by the hadith.

    To claim that mosques are regularly burned down in America is a bit silly, as we all know that this is more the case in iraq where Muslims of different sects are very active in burning each others mosques, and bombing each others funerals.

    And I really wonder how it is possible that an intelligent free woman can ”revert” so far that she converts to Islam.

  9. @ Aafke: Maybe you should read the book first and then decide why a “free” woman would convert to Islam.
    Also, you talk about rape. Can you give me the Quran verse which says that it’s allowed to rape a woman?.
    I don’t think there is one really Islamic country out there. Saudi or Iran are no Islamic countries. Do you really think it’s allowed in Islam to rape a virgin?
    The royal family of Saudi doesn’t fear corruption, and the way women are treated there is far from Islamic. It’s more like the tribal ways in which Arabs before the rise of Islam used to deal with women.
    I think there is no contradiction between being Muslim and having democratic values. And please, don’t insult us Muslim women by saying that you don’t understand how an “intelligent free” woman would convert to Islam. I respect your way of life, can you respect mine?

  10. “Saudi or Iran are no Islamic countries.” You have an idea that a real Islamic society will be flawless. Saudi Arabia and Iran are full of people well educated in Islamic texts, they use Islamic ideology to rule. Do you think that Muslim societies will be without sin? They certainly weren’t perfect in the 7th century and they aren’t perfect now.

  11. @Goldenraindrop – ‘@ Aafke: Maybe you should read the book first and then decide why a “free” woman would convert to Islam’

    This book is not about converts. If you want a book about that then read ‘Daughters of a Different Path’ My daughter gave me that book to read and it kind of backfired on her because I highlighted all the parts that showed the dysfunction of their lives and/or thought processes that would have an influence on her ‘choice’. LOL

  12. You must be a very difficult mother to deal with…
    :mrgreen:

  13. You know it!! LOL

  14. Taking Jerry’s statement I had heard that before…that Muslims were not victimized as much as other groups in the USA…I couldn’t remember where I heard it but went on a search…ultimately this is what I found…comparatively speaking Muslims are not victimized as much as other groups…

    Here is the full report:

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/anti-gay-hate-crimes-doing-the-math

    It is worth a read as they tell their process of how they determined the ratio at which groups are victimized. It is boiled down to these results:

    “For homosexuals, for example, it was calculated that they are victimized at 8.3 times the expected rate (17.4 divided by 2.1). The other categories were as follows: Jews were victimized at 3.5 times the expected rate, blacks at 3.2 times, Muslims at 1.9 times, Latinos at 0.6 times, and whites at 0.2 times.”

    Yes Muslims are being victimized but it seems compared to other groups they are not too bad off. I am NOT justifying any actions against them, what I am saying is we need to put it into perspective and be honest about it and how much it is.

  15. I don’t think an islamic society will be flawless, but if the government of a country acts in a way that is against Islam, then I think I can say that a country is not Islamic.

    “dysfunction of their lives”
    Oh, so you take your experience from a book. Well, I spend a lot of time with Muslim girls, converts and girls who were born Muslim, and I can say that we are not “dysfunctional”. We are not planning any terrorist attacks, we are not all rejoicing in rape and human rights abuse. We are just trying to live our lives, like the rest of you!

    I didn’t say that the book was about converts, I just thought that because it’s about American born Muslims that they might feature some of them.

    Anyway, I don’t want to start a discussion here. I have non-Muslims and Muslim friends alike, and we all get on well. If there is one thing I can’t stand it’s intolerance. That’s maybe why I felt the need to reply here.

  16. Sandy, You are absolutely right. I keep repeating myself, over and over and over again. You and many other Muslims have heard these tired arguments many times. But nothing changes – Because Muslims are incapable of change. I could have said “reason” but what the heck, why bother?
    To me the issue is simple. Is what Islam teaches wrong and does it cause pain, suffering and death? Yes. So I must do what I must do while I can do it.
    Let me ask you a few simple questions:
    1. Do Muslims, where they dominate, treat non-Muslims poorly and are they major human rights abusers? Yes. Do they have laws and customs that inhibit freedom of speech and conscience? Yes.
    2. Does the Quran promote hate and violence against non-Muslims? Yes. It clearly urges war against infidels and has hundreds of verses that are derogatory about non-Muslims. Yet Muslims pretend these have nothing to do with the hate and violence committed by Muslims. It gets worse.
    3. The hadith say that your prophet did very horrible things, and yet again Muslims deny this even when the text is very clear as to the atrocities committed, and – at the same time – by your faith in Islam, you proclaim your belief that this man was a great guide and moral example —- Why the heck would I believe that you or any muslim has any goodwill at all towards non-Muslims or can be trusted?

    The final straw is the lack of knowledge or honesty among Muslims. Really, I don’t know if it is deception, denial or ignorance, but Muslims just don’t seem to know much about islam, except the rituals and a few basic mumblings.

    With Islam, even the simple things are beyond understanding. Example: the BBC can’t figure out why somebody was murdered: Quote: “It is hard to find an immediate motive behind the murder of Pakistan’s Minorities Affairs Minister Shahbaz Bhatti.” So the fact that he was Christian and against the draconian blasphemy laws cannot be a understood, even when Muslims call for his death.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12622080

    Here is what Muslims have brought to the West: A British Airways worker who secretly plotted to bomb a plane for al-Qaeda was found guilty of terror charges yesterday. In one email, he wrote: “From the moment I entered this country my purpose was to do something for the faith, it was not to make a living here and start enjoying life.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/02/28/uk.terror.verdict/

    Oh yes, let’s kill for the faith, not live and enjoy life. Maybe it has something to do with Quran 9:111. What do you think?

    I, too am tired of this – but it needs to be done – not that it will make a difference. These women have submitted to Islam. Their values are those of Islam and so they support an Islamic doctrine and agenda that calls for restrictions on human rights (including their own) and subjugation of others. There is no other way to see this.

  17. Golden raindrop, *And please, don’t insult us Muslim women by saying that you don’t understand how an “intelligent free” woman would convert to Islam. I respect your way of life, can you respect mine?*

    I respect people who are worthy of respect. That means they have to do or be something i can respect. Respect is something which has to be earned; it is not yours by default.

    People get respect, but a concept does not get respect.

  18. @goldenraindrop -‘Oh, so you take your experience from a book’

    Why in the world would you make that assumption? Why do you think my daughter gave me that book? Perhaps because she, herself is a convert? And FYI she was 12 yrs old when she converted after being influenced by the words and actions of our friend Osama bin Laden. So, tell me, do you think that my daughter’s thought process at the time of her conversion was dysfunctional or not? And guess what, dysfunctional does NOT necessarily equal terrorist! Also, I am not saying that every convert has a dysfunctional thought process people are ALL individuals but I did have to do a lot of highlighting in that particular book! Have you read it yourself?

  19. @ Aafke: so you don’t think Muslim women are worthy of respect? Can you explain to me why without generalising?
    To me, a person is worthy of respect until he/she proves me wrong, so I do respect others by default. And if I understand correctly, you don’t respect views that are different from yours?

    @ Lynn
    I’m sorry I made that assumption. Was your daughter literally inspired by Osama bin Laden? He’s a horrible person and not a real Muslim in my eyes.
    I do think that at 12 you are too young to make life-changing decisions like that. I haven’t read the book myself. I’m sorry if I sounded harsh, but I guess I was influenced by some previous comments.

  20. @goldenraindrop

    of course you should respect individual and their right to believe whatever they want.
    would you go as far as saying that all views/opinions deserve (equal) respect?
    could you respect someone who you know does not respect you? thanks!

  21. Goldenraindrop – thank you for your apology.

    Yes, she was inspired by him and argued with me when I insisted that he was NOT a true Muslim! Although I am 99.9% sure that she would never commit a terrorist act she DOES (or did, we don’t discuss things like that anymore) make excuses for them.

  22. @ Kasia: I don’t think all views or opinions deserve the same respect. If they harm others, then they don’t deserve respect. To apply this on Islam, if a Muslim thinks that it’s ok to hurt his wife or a non-Muslim or any human being, then his view doesn’t deserve respect. But to say that Muslim women in general don’t deserve respect, I think that’s very wrong. Each individual is different, and the women I know, don’t wish ill to anybody. What I’m trying to say is that you can’t generalise in these matters.To answer your other question, If a person doesn’t respect me (for no good reason), then I will stop respecting him/her.

    @ Lynn: despite the fact that he is a terrorist, his views toward women are appalling. I don’t quite understand how any woman could support him or make excuses for him :s

  23. correction: i mean next to the fact (english is not my native language, sorry) :s

  24. @goldenraindrop

    i’m sure Aafke can explain what she meant exactly.
    by all means, generalizations are hurtful and should be avoided.
    we are on the same page with our vies on respect.

    i do my best and approach everyone on an individual basis but i find it a little bit difficult with muslims…
    the quran is very clear on who non-believers are and just to give one example (among many):
    “Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.” (98:6)

    That’s hardly an individual approach, is it? or generalization shouldn’t apply only to muslims?

    Muslims believe in one God, Mohammad as the messanger of God and Quran as the word of God, yes?
    I’d assume they believe statements from the Quran about non-muslims, non-believers etc yes?
    Could you please tell me if a person holding such belief, as illustrated by just one verse, should be respected by me if they believe (I assume here) that i’m the worst of the creatures? are such views worth of respect in your opinion? thank you

  25. @ Aafke-Art and all the haters:
    You chose your own lifestyle and chose your faith by you own will. But you can’t digest it when other women who also have their own free will; embrace a faith different than yours? I must ask if you do read everything about Islam, or at least read from neutral sources. I certainly think not.
    So instead of questioning the intelligence of thousands of women who chose Islam, and other thousands who are becoming members of the Muslim Society with time, why don’t you just question your own intelligence? Surely those big numbers of people have thought it over well before they took the life-changing decision. However, it seems to that your intelligence is likely to fail you, as one can predict from your comments. So the least you can do in this case is to have some tolerance. You won’t harm anyone by your hatred, but you will only be the fire that consumes itself when it doesn’t find anything to burn around it.
    Viva tolerance. Viva respect. Amen!

  26. You need two women to testify against one man. So women are half as good as men. A man can be married to four women (and he can have sex with as many slaves he can afford) Women can only be married to one man and she can not have sex with slaves they own. That makes women worth only 1/4 than men… etc

    =============================================================

    If u learn Islam from people like Jay or media from the people of type Jay, then u will spit out such silly things with half knowledge time and again till ur death.

    Do u know that a man can not be a witness but only woman can be in certain circumstances like the witness of the mother of a baby or a baby of a mother at time of birth?

    Does it mean that a man is zero and woman is 100% in Islam?
    What a stupid conclusion is that?
    Do u know that a single woman can be witness in certain circumstances like seeing sight of moon for Eid?

    Only in circumstances where a woman can be easily scared like murder, a single woman cant be witness but 2 women or a woman + a man.

    A woman is not responisible to run family, even her own makeup products, her own bread and clothes but a husband is responsible to run entire family? Even whatever a woman earns is for herself and she doesnt need to spend for her own bread?
    Does it mean torture of man by woman?

    We discussed rights of women given in Islam, that no other relgion gives in following link:

    http://americanbedu.com/2010/11/19/saudi-arabia-why-is-the-west-viewed-as-so-immoral/

    But a mind which is filled with biased and wrong info of propaganda comes with same set of questions time and again. Why is it so? Isnt it so boring to ask similar questions when millions response already given?

    I know, some personal interests is forcing u to ask same set of questions right?

    Do one thing. Stop those women/men who convert to Islam to kill non-Muslims by joining terrorists. Hurry..fast… Invite like minded people like Jay.
    Otherwise die urself with frustration. See stop them:

    “200,000 Hispanic converts to Islam in US”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/nyregion/09muslims.html

  27. See here how converted white British women are made slaves. Here converted women are speaking out without force.

    Converting to Islam – the white Britons becoming Muslims: BBC

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12075931

    as many as 100,000 converts – of all ethnic backgrounds – in the UK.

    Ask them to leave terrorist and women torturer Islam.

  28. ATTENTION == >>> Mohammed Azad Ali Shah

    See here how ex-moslems have to go undercover under the penalty of being killed. Here ex-moslems are speaking out with death threats hanging over their heads.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/wiki/en/CEMB_ex-Muslims

    And you claim islam is a religion of peace? And that there is no compulsion in religion? Shame on you and other apologists for islam.

  29. @Harry,

    Is it necessary to show any xyz stupid fake site just because I show links from world renowned sites like BBC.

    Is it a frustrated attemtpts of frustrated people like u.

    See I am a software Engineer and my brother also software Engineer. What if I or my bro make a website like following in half day and claim that I am an ex christian and spit venom of hatred?:

    http://www.aminurrashid.com/

    Take a break man…show some reliable source!!

  30. I can give you Quran verses and hadiths that show a different view.

    Tolerance and mercy

    Truly those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabaeans – whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs virtuous deeds – surely their reward is with their Sustainer, and no fear shall come upon them, neither shall they grieve. Quran 2:62

    “There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from falsehood; whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks and God is All-Hearing and All-Knowing.” (Qur’an 2:256)…

    “God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loves those who are just.” (Qur’an 60.8) … “Truth comes from your Lord. Let anyone who will, believe, and let anyone who wishes, disbelieve.” (Qur’an 18.29).

    Inscribed on the hilt of the Prophet’s sword: ‘Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself.’

    The messenger of God said to me (Anas), ‘Son, if you are able, keep your heart from morning till night and from night till morning free from malice towards anyone’; then he said, ‘Oh! My son, this is one of my laws, and he who loves my laws loves me.’

    I came to Medinah, and saw a man whose counsels men obeyed, and he never said anything but they obeyed him. I said, ‘Who is this man?’ They said, ‘This is the Messenger of God.’ Then I went to him and said, ‘Give me advice.’ Prophet Muhammad said, ‘Abuse nobody.’ And I never did abuse anybody after than, neither freeman nor slave, nor camel nor goat. And he added, ‘And if a man abuse you, and reveal a vice which he knew in you then do not disclose one which you know in him.’

    The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.

    Someone said to the Prophet, ‘Pray to God against the idolators and curse them.’ The Prophet replied, ‘I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse.’

    An adulteress was pardoned, who passed by a dog at a well holding out his tongue from thirst which was nearly killing him; for she took off her short boot and tied it to her wrapper, and pulled water for him; so was she pardoned for that. It was asked, ‘Shall we then have any reward for (our behavior to) the animals?’ ‘There are rewards’ said the Prophet, ‘for all endowed with fresh and tender hearts.’

    Against extremism

    Narrated Abu Huraira (Bukhari): “The Prophet said: ‘Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but to try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by offering the prayers in the mornings, afternoons and during the last hours of the nights.’ ”

    Rights of Women

    “When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had ! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! What an evil they decide on?” (Q. 16:59).

    The Prophet said: “The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until she has consented and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained.”

    “Live with them (your wives) on a footing of kindness and equity. If you dislike them it may be that you dislike something in which God has places a great deal of good”. (Qur’an 4:19)

    A Hadith reported by Aisha (Prophet’s wife): “The messenger of God (p.b.u.h.) has never beaten a wife nor a servant, and has never hit anything with his hand except when fighting in the cause of God.”

    Qur’an 24:23: “Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.”

    I can go on, but I don’t want to make it too long.

  31. i do my best and approach everyone on an individual basis but i find it a little bit difficult with muslims…
    the quran is very clear on who non-believers are and just to give one example (among many):
    =======================================
    @Kasia,

    Why cant u give an explanation with best approach?

    See what Bible says about non-believers:

    -Executing non-believers brings peace. 15:15 (2 Chronicles)

    -The “wrath of God” is on all unbelievers. 3:36 (John)

    -Christians shouldn’t mourn the death of their fellow believers. They’ll be OK and you’ll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (becasue they’re going to hell). 4:13 (1 Thessalonians)

    -God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7 (2 Peter)

    -They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.

    “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? … Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.” — 6:14-17(2 Corinthians)

    -They should be killed.

    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.” — Dt.13:6-10

  32. “Is it necessary to show any xyz stupid fake site just because I show links from world renowned sites like BBC.”

    Sure, Mohammed Azhar Ali Shah. Just typical moslem bs. If it doesn’t agree with your pov, just call it fake or controlled by Amreeka or Zionists or the CIA. I have heard moslems say the same about BBC when it doesn’t agree with their pov :)-

  33. Seriously Ali Shah? Do you think we are all stupid?

    What, exactly is it that you are in denial about? That there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?

  34. “I can give you Quran verses and hadiths that show a different view”.

    Goldenraindrop,

    Likewise, I can also give you Quran verses and hadiths that show a different view. Instead of a long cut and paste, just click on the link below:

    http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam

  35. So, Ali Shah. By posting that there are similar problems in Christianity with ‘unbelievers’ it is supposed to make it right that Muslims who go by Sharia Law believe that those that leave Islam should be killed?

    What do you think a non-Christian, non-Muslim non-Jewish, non-religious person such as myself will now think it is ok to kill people for their beliefs or non beliefs?

    Can you for once, just once, try to respond with something other than tit for tat?

  36. If you believe that a person who leaves their religion should be killed then just SAY that. M’kay?

  37. Lynn, on March 3, 2011 at 7:12 pm said:

    Seriously Ali Shah? Do you think we are all stupid?

    What, exactly is it that you are in denial about? That there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?
    ——————————————————————

    Yes, all those who spread lies and who make stupid sites, who believe what xyz says without confirmation and analyis are stupid but not necessarily u.

    I can reply and have replied number of times, not in tit for tat way. Problem is that people are quick to forget the reply but always remember same boring questions.

    plz Dnt ask same question again plz, I replied to u many times:

  38. And I actually do think Muslims are at fault, on top of the nasty teachings of their religion.
    You need two women to testify against one man. So women are half as good as men. A man can be married to four women (and he can have sex with as many slaves he can afford) Women can only be married to one man and she can not have sex with slaves they own. That makes women worth only 1/4 than men… etc.

    ———————————————————————

    Who is at fault for ur nasty and filthy judgment?
    If u learn Islam from people like Jay or media from people of type Jay, then u will make nasty judgment.
    And those who learn Islam from right source will keep on converting for the search of truth.

    There are certain circumstances where a man or 100 men can not be witness but only women like – the witness of baby of a mother or mother of a baby at the time of birth. So will u say that men is 0 and women is 100% in Islam?
    What kind of stupid logic is it?

    U know that a single woman can be witness for the sight of moon for Eid?

    Only in a few circumstances where woman can easily scared like murder, a single woman cant be witness but a woman + a man or + another woman. Reason is not to value woman but to give truthful evidence and right judgement for a crime.

    In Islam, a woman is not responsible to earn even for her make up and bread, she has to be taken care by brother/father before married, by husband after marraige, by son when she is old. If she earns thats her own money, she is not still responsible to spend on her bread.
    Will u say that men are discriminated in Islam?

    We discussed about slavery and women rights 1 million times. Dont get bored to repeat? I gave at least 100 ways Islam gives right to women in following topic, that no other religion gives. But ur personal interests forces u to ask same and same and same questions 1 million times till ur death?

    Search “They dnt care how Islam gave women folowing rights that no other regligion gives” in the following link:

    http://americanbedu.com/2010/11/19/saudi-arabia-why-is-the-west-viewed-as-so-immoral/

  39. MAAS: plz Dnt ask same question again plz, I replied to u many times

    MAAS: Who is at fault for ur nasty and filthy judgment?

    Wow! Da Shaykh is getting hot. He is not used to being out of the cave. He is not used to sunlight. He wants to disappear under the rock. Into the cave.
    Anywhere but light. Over it is 19!

  40. Sure, Mohammed Azhar Ali Shah. Just typical moslem bs. If it doesn’t agree with your pov, just call it fake or controlled by Amreeka or Zionists or the CIA. I have heard moslems say the same about BBC when it doesn’t agree with their pov
    ———————————————————-

    @Harry,

    THen why cant u show me such news from BBC and CNN instead of doing blah blah and showing some fake sites. Show me such news from BBC and CNN or NEewyork times if u have guts of a man.

    See how low can hate-monger, Islam hater can stoop. Have a look. U will not find such frustrated cheap fake converts among Muslims:

    Ergun Caner, Ex-Muslim Evangelical Leader, Exposed As Fake:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/walid-zafar/ex-muslim-evangelical-exp_b_582225.html

    fake ex muslims
    frontline exposure:

    http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/morefromothers.htm

  41. “They dnt care how Islam gave women folowing rights that no other regligion gives” in the following link:

    Can you please tell me what rights Islam will give me that my own country does not? Bear in mind that my husband was the sole provider in my family until I decided to get a part time job after the kids were in school. Also, make sure that your info on my country is correct and not from some ‘fake stupid site’

    And Again, I will ask you. Are you in denial that there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?

    You have NEVER answered that question because it has never been asked before. It’s pretty simple, shouldn’t take any time at all the answer that question. Can you answer that please?

  42. Can you please tell me what rights Islam will give me that my own country does not? Bear in mind that my husband was the sole provider in my family until I decided to get a part time job after the kids were in school. Also, make sure that your info on my country is correct and not from some ‘fake stupid site’
    —————————————————————–

    Lynn,

    Dear, did i say anything about ur country or my country? People say Islam tortures women and then I replied what Islam gives to women. We are talking about religion not abt u or ur husband. I think u can see difference now.

    You have NEVER answered that question because it has never been asked before. It’s pretty simple, shouldn’t take any time at all the answer that question. Can you answer that please?
    ———————————————————

    Again same question again again…but never bother to read reply.
    I have replied same question 3 times in bedu’s forum. THERE IS NO KILLING JUST FOR LEAVING ISLAM BUT FOR SPY AND HYPOCRITES. PLZ TAKE TIME TO SEE THE REPLY BEFORE ASKING AGAIN. I M BORED TO REPEAT

  43. Goldenraindrop,
    I thought I was quite clear. What part of:
    *I respect people who are worthy of respect. That means they have to do or be something I can respect. Respect is something which has to be earned; it is not yours by default.*
    do you not understand?

    I seem to understand from your comments that you think human beings are deserving of respect because they believe in bronze age superstitions about invisible friends in the sky and badly written archaic books?
    I do not think that such blind gullibility deserves respect of any kind.

    And about you quotes: None of these cherry picked quotes seem to have any measure of importance in islamic countries.
    On the contrary.
    That’s because the are invalid in Islam.
    In Islam there is the concept of ”obrigation” that means that in the many, many instances where different sura contradict each other, it is the last revealed one which obrigates the earlier one.

    The effect is that about 40% of the Quran is null and void because obrigated by later verses.
    You can find Islamic sites which re-arrange the suras in their chronological order, rather than the ancient Persian order of length you find in most qurans.
    You will then find out that the early suras are the ones you get the nice quotes from, and the later ones are the nasty ones. This is because Mohammed had to play nice when he did not have any power, but changed his take on business completely once he was in full control.

    So next time you want to prove how nice Islam is, you should look up if that sura is still valid.
    Sura The cow, for example, which you used for your two first picks is a chronologically early one.

  44. Oh please Azad Ali, Muslims threaten and attempt murder on people of other- or non-faiths on the other side of the globe because they make a rather bad cartoon featuring the prophet (a mere human)…
    In Islamic countries there are draconian up to death sentences for something as silly as ”blasphemy”.

    And you think apostasy, which in islamic scriptures is punishable by death, will not be punished with death?
    Please stop thinking we are stupid.

  45. The effect is that about 40% of the Quran is null and void because obrigated by later verses.
    You can find Islamic sites which re-arrange the suras in their chronological order, rather than the ancient Persian order of length you find in most qurans.
    You will then find out that the early suras are the ones you get the nice quotes from, and the later ones are the nasty ones. This is because Mohammed had to play nice when he did not have any power, but changed his take on business completely once he was in full control.

    So next time you want to prove how nice Islam is, you should look up if that sura is still valid.
    Sura The cow, for example, which you used for your two first picks is a chronologically early one.

    ————————————————————————–

    @Aafke-Art,

    Amazing manipulation and analysis. Muslims should learn Islam from Islamic scholar like u.
    What u say?? previous verses are nullified by later verses? Is it same case with Bible too?

    Fact is that Islomophobic people dont understand or dont like to understand the context.
    It took 23 years to reveal Quran. Every verses came with a reason on a particular incident.
    Its not that previous verses are nullified by later.
    What u have to see is the context of the verse, like when the verses came and on what situation and context.
    U have to know not only the verse but the history of the verse to know the context before applying that verse as law/principle.

    e.g. War Field verse cant be applied on common people’s life.

  46. Aafke-Art, on March 3, 2011 at 9:32 pm said:

    Oh please Azad Ali, Muslims threaten and attempt murder on people of other- or non-faiths on the other side of the globe because they make a rather bad cartoon featuring the prophet (a mere human)…
    In Islamic countries there are draconian up to death sentences for something as silly as ”blasphemy”.

    And you think apostasy, which in islamic scriptures is punishable by death, will not be punished with death?
    Please stop thinking we are stupid.
    ———————————————————-

    And why this cartoon, insult , burning Quran, mocking Muslims only? DO u hear burning BIble , mocking Jesus PBUH? Where is the so called tolerance u claim? WHat abt banning minarettes of Masjid? Ban of Hijab?

    Anyway, I replied many times abt appostacy. There is no such verses in QUran or hadith. Show me one if u have or see the video above.

  47. if your answer is in that video I can’t see it because it says it is Private.

    I said, ‘my country’ because I do not profess any religion and you want to compare the rights women have with Islam to Christianity or some other religion but that doesn’t include me.

    So, can you tell me how I, as a woman living the the U.S. would benefit (in THIS world) by accepting Islam?

    So, you say that there should be no killing except for spy and hypocrite? What about all the Islamic countries that DO have laws ordering death for apostates? You are saying that those countries are wrong? Are you willing to argue with the leaders of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan and all the others that claim otherwise? How are you supposed to try to convince us that it is not a crime to leave Islam (seen similar to spying as well as hypocritical) when all these Muslim countries that follow Sharia law make it a crime punishable by the death penalty?

  48. ‘What u say?? previous verses are nullified by later verses? Is it same case with Bible too?’

    See what I’m talking about. THAT is an attempt at tit for tat in case you don’t understand the meaning. What the HELL does the Bible have to do with the Quran?

  49. Aafke & Lynn:

    Der Sheikh Mohammed Azad Ali Shah was not able to answer your question about kiling of apostates.

    He said there is no such verse in koran. He mentioned except for spies and hypocrites.

    So here it is straight from Koran and Hadith. Below is the link which is “not a fake and stupid website”.

    Why should a person who disbelieves after becoming Muslim be executed?

    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/apostasy-islam-635

    The punishment for apostasy from the religion of Islam is execution. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever”

    [al-Baqarah 2:217]

    And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.

  50. @MD AZAD ALI SHAH

    1)does the fact that people are converting to islam makes islam ‘the true religion’?

    what women see in islam? i have no clue! i wish i could understand why they convert.

    2) you disregarded a website/forum for ex-muslims. are you saying that it’s all made up? the fact that people actually leave islam for whatever reason?

    are you diminishing the fact those people suffer from their families, friends, society because they left islam? that some of them are scared for their lives, receive death threats, go into hiding or simply maintain the facade?

    3) i’m not interested what the bible say about non-believers because i’m agnostic, i don’t follow any religion.
    however, your argument is still wrong because the fact that the bible says some ridiculous BS, doesn’t make the quran look better. argument: ‘they believe that too!’ will not get you very far.

    4) there are two verses on which the idea of abrogation is based: it’s chapter 2:106 and chapter 16:101. one example that comes to my mind is consumption of alcohol.

    @goldenraindrop

    and i can pull out as many verses saying how vile disbelievers are and how they will be burning in hell with their skins replaced, how you should not befriend them etc. what should i do with them?

    so you presented verses that show tolerance and compassion. you are well aware that there are verses that show quite the opposite and if you want i will take the time and provide you the verses and hadiths.
    you end up with two opposite views. which one do you choose then? are you saying that the not-so-pleasant verses are equally valid? if not then why not? i will ask again then:

    Could you please tell me if a person holding such belief, as illustrated by just one verse, should be respected by me if they believe (I assume here) that i’m the worst of the creatures? also, are such views worth of respect in your opinion? thank you

  51. Excuse me? Am I to understand that the Muslims discussing here really do not know of the principle of abrigation in the Quran? have any of you actually read that book at all?

    Ali [‘Ali ibn Abi Talib]said to Abdul Rahman “can you differentiate between
    abrogating and abrogated verses” Abdul Rahman said, “no.” Thereupon Ali
    said “Thou art damned and causeth others to be damned.”

  52. And what about the women who dare to choose their own husband? Or who cannot stand the abuse of their arranged husbands and divorce them?
    They get murdered too, in the name of Islam and ”honor”, even in Europe!!

    I cannot believe that with so many murders and atrocities claimed in it’s name, which are never contradicted by ”moderate” Muslims, a Muslim can claim Islam is a religion of peace!

  53. Harry, killing of apostates is in the hadith, which are as least as important as the Quran.

  54. Kasia *you end up with two opposite views. which one do you choose then? *

    You choose the view which is expressed in the latest revealed sura.
    Later sura’s abrogate earlier suras.
    It’s very simple.

  55. Lynn, well, according to Islam the whole Bible is abrogated by the Quran. Except the bits which are plagiarized in the Quran and hadith of course.

  56. I can’t believe how much hatred and intolerance there is here. And you are blaming Islam for being just that!

    For your information, Aafke, I do know about abrigation in the Quran. And yes, I have read it too. I’m even studying it at uni. I just didn’t realise that you were an islamic scholar who no doubt speaks perfect Arabic, and has studied the hadith and Quran for quite some time to be able to tell me exactly which verses we need to discard and which we should keep. Also, it’s not because a sura was revealed early that we can discard them (I want to think “duh” here, but apparently it’s not so obvious to some). I also didn’t know that you were personally acquainted with prophet Mohammed that you can tell me what his true intentions were, despite many of his sayings. You choose to see Islam as a violent religion. I choose to see Islam as a peaceful religion. I’m sorry if you can’t stand that. I’m not holding a gun to your head forcing you to like Islam. Likewise, you can’t force me to follow your views.

    “I seem to understand from your comments that you think human beings are deserving of respect because they believe in bronze age superstitions about invisible friends in the sky and badly written archaic books?
    I do not think that such blind gullibility deserves respect of any kind.”

    That’s your opinion about Islam. Please do not generalise your opinion as the truth. “badly written archaic books”. Do you even know Arabic to make such a statement??
    Quite frankly, I don’t care that you don’t respect me or my beliefs. Does that make me want to kill you for insulting Islam? Of course not. At least I don’t think that everyone should follow what I think of the world.

  57. Azad ali, have you ever read Arabic papers? have you seen the nasty cartoons about Judaism and christ in there? Do you see Jews or Christians calling out for blood or murder because of that?

    ”Quran burnings” What Quran burnings? Last year an American media whoring career preacher threatened to burn a Quran, but didn’t do it. What of it? Isn’t burning it one of the recommended ways of disposing of a worn out Quran? Whta’s the p[roblem here? And do you know that Bibles are confiscated and thrown in the trash in KSA? Do you see any Christians crying out for murder because of that?
    It’s sooo childish, all this whining and pointing of fingers.
    Please stop it and try to discuss things in an adult manner.
    You are not a child are you?
    Then stand up for yourself and top trying to deflect blame where it does not belong.
    I am tired of talking to a whining kid.

  58. goldenraindrop, that is my opinion about all religions.

    You see islam as a peaceful religion. That is because you are a good person, and you want to be muslim, so you bend and twist and cherry pick what suits you.
    Fine by me.
    You want to disregard the rule of your religion that later verses abrogate earlier verses, (actually you have to do that if you want to cherry pick the nice parts) that is also fine by me.
    However it does not deserve respect.
    But the fact that you cannot deal with the nasty truth of Islam does show you are a nice person.

    Arabic speaking people have told me there is no magical property to the Arabic in the Quran. That in fact it is not very well written. Only the bits taken from earlier Arabic poets are good.
    Certainly in translation it a badly written book.

  59. PS early suras are not discarded, only the bits which contradict a later one.
    For example: ”you have your religion and I have my religion and that’s ok” is contradicted by the later suras which instruct to kill and subdue all ”infidels”, so unfortunately that one doesn’t fly anymore.

  60. “And what about the women who dare to choose their own husband? Or who cannot stand the abuse of their arranged husbands and divorce them?
    They get murdered too, in the name of Islam and ”honor”, even in Europe!!”

    From the hadith and Quran:

    The Prophet said: “The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until she has consented and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained.”

    “Do not prevent them from marrying their husbands when they agree between themselves in a lawful manner. “(Qur’an 2:232) (I.e. a woman can choose her husband herself)

    Please do not mix culture with religion.

  61. Please, tell that to the ten year old girls who are sold to geriatric pedophiles, or the eleven year old girls who die in childbirth.
    Tell that to the girls murdered by their families, In Europe and America, we can only guess what happens behind closed doors in Islamic countries.

    A religion is what it’s adherents do. Religions are man made. They are created from and by the cultures which spawned them.
    The followers of a religion are the religion.

  62. About women in islam:

  63. Aafke, do you think that I’m not very very angry when I hear about such stories or that my heart doesn’t go out to those girls? You just see it as Islam, and I see it as people taking advantage of Islam to get their way.

    To me, religion is not man made. If a father forces his daughter to marry someone she doesn’t like, that’s not Islam to me, that’s selfishness and evil.

    Before every islamic marriage, a contract needs to be made, in which a woman can claim her rights. If this doesn’t happen, then it’s against Islam. In this marriage contract she can put that she doesn’t want her husband to take another wife, that she wants to be able to initiate divorce herself too, that she wants to keep her property and money when it comes to a divorce, etc. If you want more information on this subject, see this article: http://www.islamfortoday.com/prenuptial.htm

    I doubt that all this happens when a little girl is forced to marry. It breaks my heart just as much as yours, and please don’t think that I agree with such atrocities. I believe that a Muslim should follow certain rules and standards, because it’s mentioned in the Quran and in the hadith. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: “Do treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.” So necessarily, anyone who doesn’t do this is going against Islam.

    I don’t wish harm to anyone, and may peace be upon you all, without exceptions.

  64. Halas!

    If you take every Muslim in the world, the majority are peace loving individuals.

    If you take every Christian in the world, the majority are peace loving individuals.

    Heck…the majority of all people in the world is to have peace.

    With these diatribes that I read from commentors you’d think that people only want to fight and nit pick over how this religion or that religion or that sect is followed and forget the fact that we are all people.

    Now since this IS a blog oriented on Saudi Arabia, I’d also like to remind folks that the majority of Saudis are also peace loving individuals AND the majority would reach out to someone they see in need in spite of what religion or lack thereof someone might follow.

  65. Aafke-Art, on March 4, 2011 at 12:23 am said:

    Harry, killing of apostates is in the hadith, which are as least as important as the Quran.

    AAfke,

    You are right! Killing of apostates is both in the Koran and Hadith. See below:

    4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ’ (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ’ (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

    Narrated ‘Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”

  66. Golden raindrop, I know of at least two hadith where Mohammed gives divorce to women who do not like their marriage.
    Then how come these hadith are never taken into consideration?
    Of course I believe you are angry and upset when you hear these stories, I believe you are a good person.
    I am so angry I write posts like I just did.

    There are hadith which should ensure proper treatment of women, I wish they would be taken into account more.

  67. I wish so too, Aafke

  68. Carol…by Aafkes own admission she does not respect you as a woman due to ur conversion to Islam and becoming an empty headed oppressed female…you two must have an interesting friendship then. Just a thought.

  69. Harry, I think the solution is strict segregation between government and religion. When religion looses it power over people then people can follow their heart better. Like Bedu said, there are a whole lot of very nice peaceful people who are also Muslim.
    I have sweet friends who are Muslim. If there are secular governments with laws which protect women better, which tones down the aggression the world will be a better place.

    That also mean making sure the Christians don’t take over America! And Africa, the Christians are letting the Africans do their dirty work right now.

  70. Coolred, I don’t give default respect for women converting to islam, or any other religion for that matter. What does that have to do with friendship?
    Is friendship dependent on an enforced unmerited respect?
    Carol has many qualities I respect.
    And I did not say I would never respect a woman for converting to islam? I respect people but I don’t have to respect all their decisions by default.
    I do not think that religions deserve respect by default.
    Respect has to be earned.

    All I said is: I won’t give respect by default. It has to be earned.
    I do not exclude the possibility that a woman can explain her choice to me so that I do respect that choice. I just don’t give it by default.
    But I am always ready to be convinced!

  71. And don’t let the Republicans take over America either, since they want to stop funding Planned Parenthood!

    Sorry, getting seriously off topic here.

  72. Aafke: “I seem to understand from your comments that you think human beings are deserving of respect because they believe in bronze age superstitions about invisible friends in the sky and badly written archaic books?
    I do not think that such blind gullibility deserves respect of ANY kind.”

    hmmm……Carol..do you believe in “friends in the sky” aka God? Do you believe in a “badly written archaic book”? aka the Quran? Bible????

  73. Aafke…exactly what explanation for conversion to Islam would a woman have to give you in order to deserve your respect…if your respect is something she coveted anyways???

  74. …and was Carol convincing with her explanation as to why she converted? If so…fill us in so we can all have the magic phrase that will convince you that women who convert for whatever damn reason they feel like…are deserving of respect ANYWAYS. They are still human beings.

    You comment that you know lots of lovely Muslims…I wonder…do they know you feel this way about them? Thats like people who feel gays are abnormal then try and qualify it with…but I have gay friends. Yeah. Right.

  75. message from the uploader:

    I compiled this 10 min video with hope to eliminate the misconception many people (Islamophobes, extremists, Muslims and non-Muslims) have regarding the war verses in the Qur’an (as shown in Fitna film) by showing some historical events that explained the situations when they were revealed.

    Clips are from movie “The Message” released in 1976, directed by Moustapha Akkad and starring Anthony Quinn. Please buy this movie and watch the whole movie if you haven’t yet (~4 hours long). You can find it at amazon.com. It’s a good start for beginners in Islam.

    Might be worth the watch.

  76. goldenraindrop,

    Thx for sharing. I watched the Message couple of years ago. A real good movie.

    A sequel, A Messenger of Peace, has been in the planning stages since 2008. I will be looking forward to it! Below is the link to the story:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457446,00.html

  77. @goldenraindrop

    maybe my comment was missed among others but i would really appreciate it if you could have a look at my post and reply 🙂 thanks!

  78. 🙂

  79. Golden,

    Quote: “I can’t believe how much hatred and intolerance there is here. And you are blaming Islam for being just that!”

    We are talking! We are criticizing Islam, your Quran and your dear Prophet. This is our right and Carol is the type of person that doesn’t forbid free expression. She also does not throw the ‘hate’ word around just because people have a different opinion.

    Perhaps you should look in the mirror and see what hate really is. Take a look. You will see a selfish woman that doesn’t care about others, well, as least , some others. She thinks her people have a right to suppress opinions, even by killing them. You will see a person that has no problem with not just hate, but murder, torture, stealing, slavery and rape, when these are done by certain people. You will see a woman that worships a god that indulges in barbaric torture herself. You will see a woman that talks about peace but supports those who plot and murder others daily (read the news – hardly a day goes by with some atrocity being planned or done in the name of your god). You will also see a person that thinks she knows enough about her religion to defend it, but obviously either can’t read or doesn’t want to understand the most simple words in texts she considers sacred.

    That is the difference between us. I am not afraid of words and I think the same standards should apply to everybody.

    As to your anti-fitna video, what it basically says is the Quran is poorly written (even if this is contradiction of the Quran itself) and people can’t really understand it without another verse 25 pages away, or without some imam to explain the ‘historical context’ for that verse, even when the historical context is twisted or invented to support the idea that the Quran is perfect and Mohammad was wonderful. This is what I call the ‘Official Narrative’ and it has very little to do with what these woks actually say. As if this were not enough, Muslims want to pretend that what Muslims do has nothing to do with Islam. Ha ha ha ha.

    J.

    PS: I assume that you have read the Quran and hadith, that is why I did not put links. If you want a reference or link to any line above, just say so. You know, in a discussion about Islam, the Quran and hadith are the critic’s best friends.

  80. Oh yes, Golden, yours is a faith where people go out into the streets to demonstrate in favor of killing apostates, or to threaten those who draw silly cartoons about your prophet. Your is a faith where Imams curse unbelievers at the end of sermons because this is standard procedure – they were taught this from way back when. Your is a faith that requires apostasy laws and legal discrimination against other religions. Your is a faith where people who go on jihad or plant bombs to kill men women and children are martyrs, yet any believe any criticism of your religion or prophet is blind ‘hate’ by stupid evil people.

    Yeah, you really are a Muslims….

  81. Jay, I don’t think you know me or my religion at all, and when I look in the mirror I don’t see any of these things. I’m not the one who’s insulting other people, you are. I don’t need to take this, and I won’t. I’m done discussing with you.

  82. “and i can pull out as many verses saying how vile disbelievers are and how they will be burning in hell with their skins replaced, how you should not befriend them etc. what should i do with them?
    so you presented verses that show tolerance and compassion. you are well aware that there are verses that show quite the opposite and if you want i will take the time and provide you the verses and hadiths.
    you end up with two opposite views. which one do you choose then? are you saying that the not-so-pleasant verses are equally valid? if not then why not? i will ask again then:
    Could you please tell me if a person holding such belief, as illustrated by just one verse, should be respected by me if they believe (I assume here) that i’m the worst of the creatures? also, are such views worth of respect in your opinion? thank you”

    Place the verses in their historical context.

    I don’t end up with two different views. I end up with the view that Islam is peaceful and tolerant and asks us to be kind towards everyone. If people believe that you are the worst of creatures, then they judge you, and only God can judge. He might use very different standards than people do. That’s my opinion.

    If you don’t mind, I think I said what I wanted to say, and I’m tired of this discussion. I’m Muslim, you are not. That’s fine by me. Live and let live.

  83. @Goldendrop,

    The Message is a good movie, but it has more to do with propaganda for Islam than presenting facts. Just in the short clip you copied there are many untrue items. I am just going to list a few:

    – In the scene where the woman was tortured. She was killed at the end. This is not factual, as even if you take the Islamic version of events (not the analysed historic story), no Muslim was killed in Mecca through torture.
    – The idea that the prophet only wanted to spread his message is not correct. The prophet of Islam called for the destruction for idols of Mecca. Hence, he was not preaching co-existence.
    – The clips shows the Meccans taking Muslims properties. That is not true, as even in the Islamic version Ali Bin Abutalib remained for 3 days in Mecca after the prophets departure to dispose of assets and property.
    – The prophet life nor his followers’ lives have been threatened for 13 years. The only reason he had a bounty on his life just before hijrah (and only him by the way, note Ali remained unharmed for a few days) is because he signed a war treaty with the opposing tribes of Medina (Yuthrobe). That is treason against his own tribe and did get him in trouble.
    – I can go on….

    The fact is the Muslim story of events just does not add up, even if you look at the Muslim version of events through authenticated Hadith. The only thing you need is to look at the information with a critical eye and not accept the version fed to you by clerics at face value.

    Cheers…

  84. from wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammar_ibn_Yasir

    Ammar ibn Yasir

    His mother was Sumayyah bint Khayyat, the seventh one to accept Islam, his father was Yasir ibn Amir, Yasir and Summayya were the first people to revert to Islam out of Muhammad’s relatives and close friends. They were pagan converts to Islam. They were tortured and crucified by the Mushrikun in the last year of Muhammad before Hijra (Immigration from Mecca to Medina). Both were the first martyrs of Islam.

    Abu Jahl used to torture the Prophet’s companions. ʻAmmār’s family were tortured the most by Abu Jahl. His parents died under torture, therefore they were the first martyrs of Islam. After the Persecution of Muslims by the Quraish was over, Hamza and the Prophet’s other companions went to the place where the torture and persecution took place. They found every persecuted Muslim dead, except Ammar. He survived the torture. After the companions untied Ammar and fed him water, Ammar was crying to the Prophet about the death of his parents. The Prophet Muhammad’s companions were asking how to be safe and what they should do in order to avoid torture and persecution by the non-muslims of Quraish. Muhammad told them that they were no longer safe in Mecca. So he ordered one of his cousins, Ja’far to take a group of weak Muslims, including Ammar to Abyssinia.

  85. if you see the References the writer used, they are all islamic sources, so where on earth did you get your information from??

  86. @Golddndrop,

    It is interesting that the comment you copied and pasted use the word “revert” when speaking about people who convert to Islam. It is a dead giveaway of someone who converted to Islam through Wahabbi teaching.

    Now let’s get to the story of Summyah Bint Khayyat as the first Martyer of Islam. The stated source of that story is Ibn Ishaq book Sirat Rasul Allah (The Life of Mohammad). Now I will accept your story if you accept that Ibn Ishaq wrote an Authentic book of Islamic history.

    If you do then you have to also accept many of the stories that came in that book:

    – The Muslims are the ones who initiated fights from Medina, by cutting the routes of trade to the North from the Meccans and looting their Caravans.
    – The stories of the prophet sending assassins to kill poets who wrote poems which he did not like. This includes an old man by the name of Al-Nadr bin al-Harith and a mother nursing her child by the name of Asma bint Marwan.
    – The massacre of Banu Quraizah
    – The taking of women as booty of war by the prophet
    – Etc. Etc.

    Be careful what you ask for. I advise you run these stories by the local Immam, before you commit grave sins. Now I would also like it of you actually start looking at multiple sources on your own and with a critical eye for the contradictions, but perhaps that would be wishful thinking on my part 🙂

    Cheers

  87. @Jay i think your post was unwarranted. You don’t know Goldenraindrop and I’m sure she is a lovable person, and as she said she doesn’t wish ill to anybody, just like a lot of muslims out there. Most likely she is in denial, cherry-picking or whatever else in your opinion, but really I think you went too far.

    @Goldenraindrop

    wow, okay. maybe i’m reading too much into it but i don’t think i’ve said anything offensive or impolite to you. I live and let live. Do you feel like i’m not letting you live? or do you want me to stop asking questions?
    Just to clarify. I respect all people unless they give me reason not to respect them or hold ideas that are not worth respect. Then I will not respect their ideas and also think hard whether such individual deserves respect. I will still respect their right to have such ideas. enough said.

    Muslims always say how islam is misunderstood, how non-muslims are ignorant, blinded by hate, don’t approach the topic of islam with an open heart and mind blah blah blah. I know the drill cause i’ve had these conversation hundreds of times.
    So here is your chance to change our perceptions.

    Okay, you put those verses in the historical context, that’s great! but you should remember that the qur’an is for all people of all times.
    if you confine certain verses to their historical context then i don’t see how the qur’an is universal anymore. or am i confused?

    for me such approach also begs the question of what makes it okay to refer to people back then in such terms? do you think it was okay then? is it justified because it was 1400 years ago? i understand you are okay with that, yes? please correct me if i’m wrong. thank you!

  88. Interesting, putting the Quran and Hadith in ”historical context” is something typically done by Western converts, because it is how modern Christians deal with the atrocities in the bible.
    I have not really seen Arabs do that.
    You certainly don’t see it practiced in Muslim countries.

    Describing ”converting” as ”reverting” is also a typical convert/salafi thing.

  89. Md. Azad,
    these questions have come up again and again and same replies were given. Why do they keep coming up? Because these are the questions that are stuck in their minds as a form of attacking or bashing Islam and however many times we reply, they will keep asking so why bother. I myself have given lengthy reply to most of these questions and that is why I do not bother to reply any more. They know the answers, they are scholars, they interpret quran and understand it so much better. They understand Arabic better than Arabs. They are poets. Why bother?

    Lynn – “You have NEVER answered that question because it has never been asked before” – no it was asked before and replied to many times.

  90. Really? Can you point it out? because I cannot remember any answer from Ali Azad to any question posted by for example Moq or Lynn.
    neither does Nassef.
    I always take it that thise questions are just not answerable because they conflict with dogma.

  91. @Sarah -‘ no it was asked before and replied to many times. It was? This was the question:

    And Again, I will ask you. Are you in denial that there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?

    You have NEVER answered that question because it has never been asked before. It’s pretty simple, shouldn’t take any time at all the answer that question. Can you answer that please?

    His reply was: THERE IS NO KILLING JUST FOR LEAVING ISLAM BUT FOR SPY AND HYPOCRITES. PLZ TAKE TIME TO SEE THE REPLY BEFORE ASKING AGAIN. I M BORED TO REPEAT

    and then he posted a video which I told him that I could not watch as it came up as private.

    If you think that that reply was an answer to my question then we are not speaking the same language.

  92. Aafke, maybe you can read this for your answer? http://www.flw.ugent.be/cie/bogaert/bogaert2.htm

    it’s written by a non-muslim.

  93. Especially creepy is that smug, selfsatisfied beardy creep with his comment: ”I’d like to salute our young men and women for their natural and healthy belief and for their religious zeal” Yeah, well done, a lot of young people’s minds distorted to make them ready to kill anybody who does not conform to their teachers ideas of religion. Very unhealthy and very unnatural.

    There’s also dr Gamal, who makes a lot of very wise remarks, but unfortunately he’s not in the majority.
    And he is right about freedom leading to democracy and leading to science and progress. And we see what happens to countries without freedom: no science (or nothing which isn’t imported) no progress, and lots of poverty.

  94. goldenraindrop, I want the answers from those who were asked. Azad Ali, nassef, and others, seem incapable of giving a straight answer to a straight question.
    of course that is an answer in itself: They cannot answer the question.

  95. Wow, is that poor Dr. Gamal still alive?

  96. I’m sorry, Aafke, but does it matter who gives the answer? Are you trying to find out what Islam says or what some Muslims think?

  97. @goldenraindrop,

    You assume that people on this forum are not knowledgeable and have not read about Islam before. My experience here is most are well read and are presenting their opinion based on knowledge. They also diversify their readings. Adding a link to an article is not going to present your opinion. It is called a reference. Present your opinions on your own words, then show your references.

    Some of us read the Quran, read the Hadith, read major works from Ibn Ishaq, Tibiri, Ibn Kathir, etc. So spare us the links and debate your opinions. A simple link won’t do it as we have already read more than you think about Islam, before forming our positions.

  98. @Lynn,

    Gamal Al-Bana is still alive as far as I know. As you can imagine he has been on Salafi lists of intellectuals, who have been targeted as outside of Islam. If you notice the show host (a Salafi) kept mumbling prayers of forgiveness from Allah when Gamal was speaking in few clips as he considers Gamal’s opinions are sinful (even to hear).

    The Muslim world is stuck in the outdated ideology of forcing people to believe. Leaving Islam is still considered a capital offense by most Muslims.

  99. Dear Lynn (and Aafke),

    I was not aware that you could not open the video.
    However, if u remember u already asked this question in other topic and I personally replied.

    Well, we can have healthy discussion.
    I personally not aware of any such law in any Islamic country.
    It doesnt mean that I am denying of such existance. I simply mean that I am not aware.
    Most probably it might be existing in some(a very few if exists) Arab countries.
    I hear in media but not sure of reality.

    Arab doest represent Islam. And a Muslim also doest represent Islam.
    I can ignore 5 times prayer, fasting, I can rape, kill innocents, steal other’s property.
    I can still call myself a true Muslim, that’s my definition but not what Islam says.

    There are only 18% of world’s 1.55 billion Muslims in Arab.
    Remaining 62% of Muslims live outside Arab.

    There are 220 million Muslims in Indonesia, there is no such law of Apostasy.
    There are 200 million Muslims in Pakistan, there is no such law of Apostasy.
    There are 160 million Muslims in Bangladesh, there is no such law of Apostasy.
    There are 80 million Muslims in Turkey, there is no such law of Apostasy.
    There are some other millions Muslims in Brunei, Albania, there is no such law of Apostasy.

    So, we can not simply generalise that Muslim countries give death penalty to the apostates.

    NO DEATH PENALTY FOR POSTASY IN ISLAM:

    Coming back to what Islam says, let me quote a logical verses from Quran:

    **************************************************
    Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4.138)

    **************************************************

    U see here “believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and again…..so on”.
    If Islam allows to kill an apostate, there is no question of believe again then disbelieve, he could have been killed in the first instance of disbelieving. Is it logical?

    Let me give another verses where Quran allows freedom of relgion:

    **************************************************
    a) I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship.
    And I will not worship that which you have been wont to worship, Nor will you
    worship that which I worship, So you be your Way, and to me mine.(109:1-6)

    b) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever
    rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the mosttrustworthy hand-hold,
    that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth allthings.(2:256)

    **************************************************

    Also as per Islam, if there is any conflict between hadith and Quran, then Quran should be followed and ignore the hadith.
    If you want to read in details about apostasy, kindly go through this:

    If u want to read in details, kindly go through this:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

    Please keep in mind that what Muslims, christians do may be different from what Islam or CHrisitianity teaches.
    For e.g. Saudi govt doesnt allow women to drive while women were in battle field during Prophet’s time.

    Note: If u have additional question on Apostasy, plz dont come before reading the link that explains this. It will save my time and ur time.

  100. If a person wants to go to hell…let him!!

    Wonderful…the only thing that elder “sheik” is saying is that…yes they are going to hell for apostacy..and its our duty to send them there sooner rather than later. Sweet

    I find it extremely ironic that a person is so readily accepted and praised for their “intelligence” when converting to Islam but upon further refelction when they decide they dont want to remain a Muslim, suddenly that same brain and intelligence that got them there and is now leading them away…is called into question and now they must die for it. Sweet.

  101. Okay, you put those verses in the historical context, that’s great! but you should remember that the qur’an is for all people of all times.
    if you confine certain verses to their historical context then i don’t see how the qur’an is universal anymore. or am i confused?
    ==========================================================================

    Dear Kasia,

    What Goldenraindrop meant is before applying any law of Quran or Hadith, we should analyse if the law is applicable or not.
    For e.g. there is law of theft. Some1 can ask there was not cyber theft 1400 years back, then how can it be applicable today?
    Answer is, law can be applied in case of any theft today just like it happened 1400 yrs ago.

    Another example where Quranic verses can not be applied out of context. There were war related verses that can be applied in battle field. So, by using that verse, u can not kill any innocent in normal, common life today.

    Thumb rule for Islam is:

    Know the verses from Quran and reliable Hadith, then know its context, applicability, situation, condition, rules and regulation of the verse before applying that verse.

    Sadly today even Muslims fail to show the true picture of Islam.
    Many misinterpret Islam to suit their personal needs and whims. Because of some Muslims’ behaviour, Islam is seen as threat.

  102. @Coolred38,

    Now-a-days, its really difficult to find a very well educated Sheikh/Imam. Any1 issues stupid fatwa whenever he wants.

    I am not sure about Arab, trust me Muslims living out of Arab countries laugh and feel sad to see what is happeing in Arab world.

    In Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei any1 who self declared as imam/sheikh can not teach Quran to kids, he can not be imam of a masjid. There is govt body consisiting of well learned Muslims. This body takes interview and test to check his deep knowledge in Islam before he can be appointed as imam or sheikh or teacher. And so we do not hear any stupid fatwa in these countries and so they are quite developed and progressed religoiusly and worldly affairs..

    Arab world needs change urgently.

  103. Azad, have a look at the names mentioned here, those are top Islamic scholars in history.
    Their opinion is that apostates should be put to death.

    bn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni, 9/18:

    ”The apostate should not be put to death until he has been asked to repent three times. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including ‘Umar, ‘Ali, ‘Ata’, al-Nakhaii, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Awzaa’i, Ishaaq and others. Because apostasy comes about because of doubt, and cannot be dispelled in an instant. Time should be allowed for the person to rethink the matter, and the best length of time is three days. ”

    The saheeh Sunnah indicates that it is essential to put the apostate to death.

    Al-Bukhaari (6922) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.”

    Al-Bukhaari (6484) and Muslim (1676) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a previously-married person who commits zina; and one who leaves his religion and separates from the main body of the Muslims.”

    The general meaning of these ahaadeeth indicates that it is essential to put the apostate to death whether he is waging war on Islam (muhaarib) or not.
    (italics mine)

  104. Killing of apostates is both in the Koran and Hadith. See below:

    4:89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ’ (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ’ (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

    Narrated ‘Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’

  105. Ali Shah…in this instance I have to disagree. In my personal experience the more you learn about Islam leads to two issues. You either promote ideas and practices that are contrary to basic human rights and obligations…or you reject Islam and become apostate.

    I find (and again I speak personally) that those who have found a middle ground, so to speak, have just quieted the voices that demand answers regarding issues that send up red flags. You cannot explain away certain practices and beliefs in Islam with just the phrase, it was place and time…because the place and time is NOW. We are not living in the past…we are living right now and those same beliefs and practices that Muslims of the past dealt with are affecting Muslims of the present. And even nonMuslims.

    Not a good argument.

  106. @Md. Azad Ali Shah

    so how is the qur’an universal, for all people for all times if you discard certain verse as not applicable nowadays? and who is to say which verses should be applied and which shouldn’t? does the qur’an tell you HOW to do it? all i know is that the qur’an itself tells you not to cherry pick!

    why don’t you address just that one verse i mentioned? and the second part of my post you quoted? what are you thoughts on it?

    @Goldenraindrop

    i guess i have to be more vocal to get my questions answered 😉

  107. Dear Aafke,

    I think u didnt ready my reply or ignore or do not want to understand what I said.
    Kinldy read back once again.

    In my life,I never heard of any schoolar u mentioned – Qudaamah , ‘Umar, ‘Ali, ‘Ata’, al-Nakhaii, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Awzaa’i, Ishaaq. I hear from u today. I think u tried to goooooooooogleeed and find out from deepest and most crueled propaganda.

    And also there is no such Hadith 6484, 6992. We refer by volume, book and number of Bukhari.
    Also I said that if there is any conflict between hadith and Quran, Quran should be followed.
    There so many questions on Hadith like, reliable, unreliable, hadith before Quran, Hadith after Quran, Hadith with unbroaken chain, broaken chain etc.

    I gave a very logical answer in short. But u come in round robin fashion of UNIX operating System.
    If u try to deny I cant help it.

  108. @Harry,

    I think u also should read my above reply.
    In addition to my previous reply let me put clarificatin on ur wrong quotation of Quranic and Hadith verses:

    وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا

    They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from theirranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and(in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks; (4.89)

    “if they turn renegades” – Its talking about hypocrites who attack Islam and Muslims by fake conversion.

    Hadith u quoted is weak hadith,that can not be considered as law:

    But this hadith is open to varying interpretations on several grounds.

    First, this hadith is considered a weak hadith with just a single isnad (this means there is only one chain of transmission or narration) and thus according to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, it is not enough to validate the death penalty.

    Second, this hadith is also considered a general (‘amm) hadith in that it is in need of specification (takhsis); for it would otherwise convey a meaning that is not within its purpose. The obvious reading of the hadith would, for example, make liable the death punishment on a Hindu or Christian who converts to Islam. This is obviously not the intention of the hadith. According to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, when a text is interpreted once, it becomes open to further interpretation and specification. Therefore, many scholars interpret this hadith to apply only to cases of high treason (hirabah), which means declaring war against Islam, the Prophet, or God or the legitimate leadership of the ummah.

    Third, and most importantly, there is no evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad saw or his Companions ever compelled anyone to embrace Islam, nor did they sentence anyone to death solely for renunciation of the faith.

    Based on these three reasons and the Qur’anic principle of freedom of religion, prominent ulama (scholars) from the seventh to the twentieth centuries have come out with the position that there can be no death penalty for apostasy.

    Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.

    As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. There is no reason to kill someone who doesn’t deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims then the matter becomes different. But if any1 today for instance embraces Islam for a while and then changes his position due to the overwhelming false anti-Islamic media, then certainly killing that person would be a grave sin and a big mistake.

    Read details from here:

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

  109. @Ali Shah,

    You argue that Islam does not have a death penalty for apostate and you use scanty evidence for that. Namely a web page setup to make Islam look better for Westerners. The fact, like Aafke showed you, is that most of the distinguished scholars of Islam have different interpretation of the text than yours. That is called a consensus Yes, you can have your opinion and others can do the same (including the writers of that site), but the fact remains most Muslims follow the interpretations of well known scholars. The list Aafke presented is very distinguished names (Malik, Muslim, Al-Bukhari, etc.)

    You also forget that in Islam, Abu Baker fought a war after the death of the prophit against apostates. Those are called the Ridah war. So we do not just have the writings, we have a historic event of the first Khalifah going to war against anyone that rejected Islam.

    Your opinion does not count until you change the fundamentals of who Muslims listen to. Where the rubber meets the road in the Muslim world, no one dares to announce their true believes if those can brand them as apostate. They will fear for their lives. Until you change Islam from your minority opinion, you are just another internet ranter who is in a very slim minority. Thus your opinion does not represent Islam. You have a long way to go before you can make your rosy picture stick.

    I would really love to see you go in the real world and preach such radical ideas which contradict main stream Islam. I advise you to be careful and always watch your back if you do. Get to work my friend and quit wasting your time here as you are solving the wrong problem. The issues of Islam is not how we interpret it, it is how the majority of Muslims interpret Islam.

  110. so how is the qur’an universal, for all people for all times if you discard certain verse as not applicable nowadays? and who is to say which verses should be applied and which shouldn’t? does the qur’an tell you HOW to do it? all i know is that the qur’an itself tells you not to cherry pick!

    why don’t you address just that one verse i mentioned? and the second part of my post you quoted? what are you thoughts on it?

    ——————————————————————————————–

    Dear Kasia,

    I didnt say to discard verses from Quran.
    I said to apply verses in context.
    War related verses of the time also applicable to-day if that happens again.
    Even today’s democratic laws also see condition/context – e.g. if the murder happend in self defense or intent killing.

    Yes, Quran should not be just plain reading. For every verses of the Quran there is Tafseer (commentary), that describes when, where and for what the verses came.

    I dnt know which verses u are refering too.

  111. I would really love to see you go in the real world and preach such radical ideas which contradict main stream Islam. I advise you to be careful and always watch your back if you do. Get to work my friend and quit wasting your time here as you are solving the wrong problem. The issues of Islam is not how we interpret it, it is how the majority of Muslims interpret Islam.

    ——————————————————————————————–

    @MoQ,

    If u read my post, I didnt say that Bukhari is not scholar, I said the reference she gave is wrong.

    So, what u mean is majority of Muslims have radical ideas in real world?
    Majority means more than 50%. There are 1.55 billion Muslims.
    If 50% of Muslims are radical, there will be blast every second even in ur kitchen, bath-room.

    I suggest u to remove this thinking.
    Majority are good always..they are peaceloving.

  112. the verse i posted is not about war:

    “Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.” (98:6)

    Golden said that we should apply historical context. that’s all well and good but… for me such approach also begs the question of what makes it okay to refer to people back then in such terms? do you think it was okay then? is it justified because it was 1400 years ago? i understand you are okay with that, yes? please correct me if i’m wrong.

    i can post more verses if you wish but we’d be here all year.

    I understand what you say. Verses should be looked at in context.
    You say tafseers. Okay… Doesn’t the Qur’an say it’s a clear book, free of doubt and involution? why on earth do i need hadiths and then taseers to understand a single verse? if the qur’an is clear to read for everyone, shouldn’t i be able to just crack it open and be enlightened?

    Right, I feel i need clarification so please help me out here cause i’m getting seriously confused.
    1) where in the qur’an it says to do what you are talking about? i would like references please.
    2) who is to say when some verses from the qur’an should apply to present time situation? let me give an example: is the verse about inheritance (a man getting a portion of 2 female) applicable nowadays or not?

    cheers!

  113. In between, I am surprised to see why people keep dragging things related to Islam even after repeated explanation.
    Why they dont discuss Bible which says to kill for apostacy and says to kill for many other matters.
    How they are too much interested in Islam only?

    BIBLE ORDER KILLING OF APPOSTASY:

    Deuteronomy 13:6-9 “If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him.

    SHOW HIM NO PITY. DO NOT SPARE HIM OR SHIELD HIM. YOU MUST CERTAINLY PUT HIM TO DEATH. YOUR HAND MUST BE THE FIRST IN PUTTING HIM TO DEATH, and then the hands of all the people.”

    Deuteronomy 17:3-5 “And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, …..and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.”

    2 Chronicles 15:13 “All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.”

    Matthew 15:4: ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’

    Romans 1:32. ……. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death

    Also Psychics must be put to death:

    Leviticus 20:27 “And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them.”

  114. uhh btw, even I (and i’m very bad with names) came across most names that aafke’s post contained. as far as i am aware they are prominent scholars of islam and islamic jurisprudence.

  115. Sure Deurornomium is a very nasty book.
    What of it?
    That doesn’t change the Quran’s nasty bits, nor the nasty things the prophet did and said nor the nasty things his companions did and said.
    But they are the great example and to be followed by all muslims. As you know as a Muslim.

  116. It’s really too bizarre, and too repetitive, the endless excuses, then the texts have to be seen in context (something I have never seen done in a Muslim country, actually to suggest that could be seen as apostasy), then the complaining that we doon’t read, then the examples from the Bible to show that the Bible is as nasty as the Quran.

    But never, ever have I seen a comment where a Muslim admits that indeed there are some nasty bits in the Quran and hadith, that the prophet did some very bad things, and that now, in these times, Muslims should ignore those and re-organize their religion a bit.

    It is always the same evasions, the same accusations, the same blaming of other religions, the same nonsense. Anything as long as they don’t have to admit that Islam needs a bit re-organizing.

    This is why the majority of nice, friendly, peaceful Muslims are still the supporters and enablers of the Fundamentalists and terrorists. Because when push come to shove, this small minority are the ones who follow Islam the closest and that is why the majority of the Muslim ummah does not act against them, does not stand up against them, does not go out in the street and denounce them.

    Such actions are reserved for writers and cartoonists.

  117. @MD Shah,

    You do not even understand context of a discussion.

    A radical idea does not mean violent idea. Radical can mean “Characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or progressive”. Learn to understand what people are telling you, before you make judgments on their thinking.

    The rule about the punishment of an apostate is death is a main stream belief. It is supported by the great majority of important scholars through out the history of Islam. Your ideas are RADICAL in the sense they are outside the main stream.

    It is amazing that you misunderstand simple sentences to mean something totally different.

    Again you are wasting your time here as you are solving the wrong problem. Go and change Main Stream Islam to your way of thinking then come back and argue. It will be nice for a change, if you share with us some of your great plans to change Islam to be so nice instead of constantly defending. All what you are doing here is using lipstick in an unsuccessful attempt to make Islam look better than what is factual.

    “Majority are good always..they are peaceloving.”
    Note people who are familiar with my writings here know that I always say “Muslims are good as people in spite of their religion”. MD if you pay attention you would have known my position. I have an issue with Islam not the Muslims.

    Note: your reply did nothing to answer my comment. All what you did is make the wrong assumptions about what I meant with one word. You did not answer to the issue of consensus of Muslim Scholars. Show me where the founders of the main Sunni sects of Islam (Shafiae, Ibn Hanbal, Malik, and Ibn Hanifa) disagree with the death penalty for apostates. Here is an example of the view Hanbali “Any adult and rational man or woman who renounces Islam and chooses kufr should be given a three day period to repent. The person who does not repent should be executed.” I encourage you to look up the rest on your own (note you will find similar stance (Maliki is even stronger in not giving a person a chance to repent, if he/she openly rejected Islam).

    You did not answer to the Ridah wars either.

    Avoiding discussions with strawman arguments seems to be your only method of debating.

  118. Dear Kasia,

    We can categorise verses like the one that can be applied as law (which are enforceable like theft punishement), which God/Allah only will decide but its upto individual to follow what God says or not.

    “Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.” (98:6)

    This verse is right and its applicable in life after death as per God’s wish. Its not a law to be applied in this world.

    1) where in the qur’an it says to do what you are talking about? i would like references please:
    Ans:

    Quran just gives verses/commands only. If it goes on explaining root, reason, circumstances,situation, condition, rule of applicability of verse, then QUran will be quite big in volume and so there is separate references for Tafseer (commentary) for certain complex verses. All verses of Quran doesnt need commentary.

    Sincerely, I am not sure where does Quran says to go through commentary but its the way to learn Quran in correct way, thats very well understood in Islam. Its something like summary(easily understandable) of a poem(difficult to understand, many verses need explanation in context) in certain literature.

    2) who is to say when some verses from the qur’an should apply to present time situation? let me give an example: is the verse about inheritance (a man getting a portion of 2 female) applicable nowadays or not?

    Ans:
    Quran says to learn, confirm, analyse urself. There is no authority to say this and that. U can ask some scholar, imam but to confirm authenticity is individual’s work.

    is the verse about inheritance (a man getting a portion of 2 female) applicable nowadays or not?

    Ans:

    Its applicable today also. Because as per Islam, a woman is not responsible to bear the financial burden of her own bread, clothes, makeup product. Even she is not responsible to cook, wash clothes, cleanse house in Islam (if she does thats her greatness but husband cant force her to do household chores). A woman’s needs is taken care by father/brother before marraige, after marriage by husband, when old by son. If she earns, whatever she earns is her own money, she is not responsible to run the family financially, to pay bill, to take care kids. A husband also cant force her to use her earning for family. If she doesnt like to work, she can not be forced to work. For these reason, a man gets more than a woman to take care of entire family i.e. entire financial burden is on man not woman.

  119. This is why the majority of nice, friendly, peaceful Muslims are still the supporters and enablers of the Fundamentalists and terrorists. Because when push come to shove, this small minority are the ones who follow Islam the closest and that is why the majority of the Muslim ummah does not act against them, does not stand up against them, does not go out in the street and denounce them.

    Such actions are reserved for writers and cartoonists.
    ===============================================================================

    @Aafke,

    I will respectfully refute such nasty judgement of urs.
    Have a look here here how majority Muslims stand for peace not supporing terrorists as u blame as usual:

    Muslims stand against terrorsits:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=Muslims+stand+against+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

    Fatwa against terrorism:

    http://www.google.com.sg/search?q=Muslims+stand+against+terrorism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&pq=muslims%20stand%20against%20terrorism&xhr=t&q=Fatwa%20against%20terrorism&cp=4&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=firefox-a&hs=fIh&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&aq=0c&aqi=&aql=&oq=Fatw+against+terrorism&pbx=1&fp=46e19553f53293f3

  120. MAAS ==>> why they dont discuss Bible which says to kill for apostacy and says to kill for many other matters. How they are too much interested in Islam only?

    POINTS TO PONDER

    When a non-Muslim, in a dialogue with a Muslim, criticizes Islam or Muslims, the Muslim will tend to respond to the criticism of Islam or Muslims by turning the tables on the non-muslim by deflecting or steering the conversation to something completely unrelated.

    This is, on the surface, a rather self-sacrificing posture, potentially noble and laudable and open-minded. It lurches into the territory of the incoherent, the inane, the perverse, the hypocritical, the treasonous and the suicidal — particularly when the object of the criticism is outrageously perceived as anti-koran/anti-mohammed; which is nourishing innumerable fanatics around the globe who want to destroy us if they cannot subjugate us to their evil totalitarianism.

    It is usually manifested in various questions by the Muslim meant to be self-evidently rhetorical:

    How about apostasy in the Bible?
    What about the Crusades?
    What about the Spanish Inquisition?
    What about the witch-burnings?
    What about Christian wars of religion?
    What about slavery?
    What about Western Colonialism?
    What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
    What about Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?
    What about the “genocide” of the American Indians?
    What about Abu Ghraib?

    Etc., ad nauseam.

  121. @MoQ,

    What do u mean by “Go and change Main Stream Islam to your way of thinking then come back and argue”?
    Dont u think that it is completely senseless? Any sense in this statement?
    Where u want me to go and shout?
    U knw that media is a way to spread message, I do need to go anywhere as it happened centuries by with horses.

    I think u fail to understand what we are discussing.
    We are discussing what Islam says not what Muslims do.
    We are discussing and analysing what really Quran says about a particular topic.

    Let me explain what is the view of scholars, not the one non-Muslims and u say:

    Islam began by inviting and persuading people to embrace it on the merit of its rationality and truth. In Surah Yunus, 10:99, a verse revealed in Mecca at the advent of Islam, Allah says: “Had your Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed. Do you then force people to become believers?” This and verse 2:256, together with the norm of Shari’a which affirms freedom of religion, have led many Muslim countries today to include in its Constitution an article on freedom of religion as a fundamental right even though some monarchy in Arab doesnt include.

    In his book, The Punishment for Apostasy in Islam, the former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, noted that even though the subject of apostasy occurred no less than 20 times in the Qur’an, the Holy Book remained silent on death as a punishment. Surah An-Nisa’, 4:137-138, state that “Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve, and then increase in their disbelief – Allah will never forgive them nor guide them to the path. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment.” If indeed it was Allah’s intention to impose the death penalty for apostasy, then such occasion of repeated apostasy could have provoked such a punishment. But neither the first instance of apostasy, nor repeated apostasy brought about capital punishment.

    Based on the Qur’anic principle of freedom of religion, prominent ulama (scholars) from the seventh to the twentieth centuries have come out with the position that there can be no death penalty for apostasy. According to Professor Hashim Kamali in his award-winning book, Freedom of Expression in Islam, two leading jurists of the generation succeeding the Companions, Ibrahim al-Naka’I and Sufyan al-Thawri, both held that the apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. The renowned Hanafi jurist, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi wrote that even though renunciation of faith is the greatest of offences, it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the Day of Judgement. The Maliki jurist Abul Walid al-Baji and the renowned Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah have both held that apostasy is a sin which carries no hadd punishment.

    In modern times, the celebrated Sheikh of al-Azhar University, the late Mahmud Shaltut who was esteemed for his vast knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence and Qur’anic interpretation, wrote that many ulama are in agreement that hudud cannot be established by a solitary hadith and that unbelief by itself does not call for the death penalty. The current Sheikh of al-Azhar, who was Egypt’s former Grand Mufti, Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, also declared that apostasy is not a capital crime.

    Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.

    U seem to be the type of person who always think that what others say is just defending. If u think like that, yes I am wasting my time. At the same time I dnt see ur purspose of writing.

    I am not defending. I am telling the right way a verse means in context, not what Taliban or Murderer or rapist interpret.

  122. “I think u fail to understand what we are discussing.
    We are discussing what Islam says not what Muslims do.
    We are discussing and analysing what really Quran says about a particular topic.”

    No I truly understand. I keep repeating it over and over. The great majority of Muslims do not do most of the bad things Islam tells them. Like taking on Jihad. That is because they are good people and ignore the violence their religion asks them to do.

    You have the opposite philosophy. You hold the idea that Islam is great and the people are bad since they do not follow it.

    I happen to think my view is better than yours, so lets not beat around the bush with your Starwaman arguments. I stated my position very clearly. MANY MANY MANY Times on this blog.

    My position also has the simple advantage of being proven by events through out history. The more religious people get and follow their religion the more aggressive they get. It explains the Ridah wars, the Khwarj wars, the Futohat wars, the Crusades, todays Jihadi wars and terrorism, etc.

    “Islam began by inviting and persuading people to embrace it on the merit of its rationality and truth. In Surah Yunus, 10:99, a verse revealed in Mecca at the advent of Islam, Allah says”

    Yes that is a great verse, if all you do is cheery pick your verses and ignore history. Islam was spread by the sword my friend. Muslims had army’s which invaded today’s Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine, etc. all the way to Spain in the West. They did not stop there they also invaded today’s Iran, most of the middle Asian republics, Pakistan and Indian to the east. All of these wars were wars of subjugation of none Muslims. Do you really think you are talking to uneducated people that think your single verse can eliminate all the facts of history and other extremely aggressive verses in quran and all the violent hadiths.

    Regarding the rest of your rant about scholars supporting your position, You are listing minor scholars who do not have the same effect as the more distinguished Scholars like the founders of the Major Islamic sects, nor rise to the same level as the collectors of Hadith (and arguably the producers of the most important books after the Quran). MD you are not making progress in making your point stick, it is wishful thinking that you can produce a few less important scholars and some how you say that is what Islam is. I can produce a few articles for you also that say the Earth is flat, but it does not mean a thing since my argument goes against major Scientific works.

  123. @MD Ali Shah, I agree with MoQ when he says ‘Again you are wasting your time here as you are solving the wrong problem. Go and change Main Stream Islam to your way of thinking then come back and argue. It will be nice for a change, if you share with us some of your great plans to change Islam to be so nice instead of constantly defending. All what you are doing here is using lipstick in an unsuccessful attempt to make Islam look better than what is factual’

    That is actually what I was going to suggest. But seriously, do you spend time on some of those Islamist type web sites where they post bin Laden’s messages and such? Convince THEM that they are taking the verses out of context, tell all the Muslim (YES even some states in Malaysia have death for apostasy) countries that there should be no punishment for apostasy or blasphemy. Do your part to ensure that no converts or Muslims trying to renew their faith get the wrong message about what Islam is. Why are you wasting your time trying to convince us? We are not Muslim and what we think should not be of as much concern to you as what Muslims think and do that is supposedly tarnishing the TRUE message of Islam.

  124. Aafke,
    I cannot remember which thread it was but I know I did answer those questions and the same video was posted by someone else. I wish there was a search by comments. Of course these questions are answerable and have been answered many times.

    Lynn,
    ” Are you in denial that there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?”

    No I am not in denial and there are many people who leave Islam and there are many who enter it. It all depends on the person not the religion. As I had mentioned before that the killing of those people who leave Islam is the same as treason which is punishable by death at times of war. It is the same in Islam. It was not random killing of people who leave Islam. Quran talks about people who leave Islam and then enter it and then leave again but it does not mention to kill them when they leave. During the battles, these people who joined enemy forces would give out the secrets and had spy missions and this is why death was the punishment and this is the rule even today for any act of treason.

    I wish I can find time today to sift through the comments from more than 6 months ago where this same topic was discussed and I and many others answered. If these do not ansdwer your question then you are looking for something to suit your thinking.

  125. @Sarah,

    Your explanation is not valid. It is a miss representation of the truth. Search the Islamic Jurisprudence (Shariia), there are only 4 major Schools of Sunni Islam which define Shariia (Shafii, Hanbali, Maliki and Hanafi). The founders of all these schools are in agreement, a person leaving Islam and insists on not returning (i.e. does not repent) should be put to death. No conditions were given for application only in the case of war.

    Go research and come back if you can find evidence which contradicts my comment above. Hopefully, you can learn a little about your own religion.

  126. M0Q,
    Pls do not assume always that you are the master of all subjects and that you are always right and others ar just uneducated fools just because they have their way of tackling the subject. If a matter does nto agree with you, it becomes weak to you and strawman and people need to read and do more research. You know you can be wrong too. Have you thought about that?

    You do not have to be so agressive about it. IF you think these jurists said so then they also said that if anything they said opposes what the prophet said (or of course the Quran) then reject what they teach and follow the Quran and the Prophet.

  127. Sarah,

    It is not my issue that you feel inadequate, that is something for you to resolve for yourself.

    I am encouraging you to learn about your own religion. This is really just simple facts, not opinion based stuff subject to arguing and controversy. I will even break it down into bullets for you:

    – Islam has something called Shariia, which forms its laws.
    – In Islam Shariia is based on a branch of research called Fiqh (not to be confused with a similar English slang word).
    – A long time ago some schools of thoughts started to emerge to consolidate opinions of Fiqh.
    – Those schools of thoughts (mazhabs) were established by leading scholars #1 was called Hanafi after its founder Imam Ibn Hanifah #2 was called Sahfii after its founder Imam Shafii #3 Called Maliki after its founder Ibn Malik and last but not least #4 called Hanbali after its founder Ibn Hanbal (this one is the one Saudi Wahabbi’s follow, with some additional coloring and a dash of spice)
    – The founders of these schools of thoughts, who are revered by all the followers of their mazhab all agree that apostates should be put to death. Forming a unified law of Sunni Islam for this subject.

    See it is very simple. No controversy. It does not require any mastery. It is Islam 101 really.

  128. MoQ,
    I understand what you are saying. Pls do not ask people to go and read. People are as much read, if not more, than you. Pls do not make yourself out to be expert in all matters. That is all what I am saying. It does not look good for a person of your level of knowledge. You can be wrong and are sometimes. You are after all a human. Have respect for people with different thoughts and understandings. This is just my advise; you can take it or leave it.

    I know about the madhabs but you didn’t talk about what I said that these jurists say to reject what they said if it opposes the Quran and the teachings. It is really that simple. I too can encourage you to read more and change this attitude that “I am the best to know to all matters”. Pride comes before fall. Just my 2 halas.

  129. @Sarah,

    “It does not look good for a person of your level of knowledge. You can be wrong and are sometimes.”

    I make it a habit not to argue any topic unless I am very knowledgeable in it. Your claim that I think I know everything is a strawman argument. I just simply avoid topics I am not good at. For example, if you start talking about poetry, you will not see a single comment from me. As it is an area I have very little knowledge and interest in.

    Regarding Mazhabs contradicting Quran or Hadith. I forgot to add a bullet to my list above. Here it is. It goes as number 3 in the list above:

    – Fiqh is a field of study based on Quran and Hadith. It’s primary objective is to codify the rules and laws of Islam. The researchers in the field spend years (some times spending long nights with candle lights those days) scanning detailed texts from the holy book and the saying and acts of the prophet (saaws). Their mission is to insure every rule and law they discover is based on the wishes of Allah (swt) and is in total agreement with the Quran and Hadith. With no contradictions with the holy book. Other researchers also review the writings to make sure proper study techniques were followed (i.e. peer reviews).

    So Sarah, please do not worry. Those excellent scholars insured there is no contradiction to Quran and Hadith.

  130. M0Q,
    I agree that you will not comment on topics you are not interested in or not knowledgeable in. That’s understandable but you do know that you can be wrong even in topics that you are well-versed in, don’t you? And no one can know completely everything.

    Your point number 3 still does not explain my point. Yes those imams did put in a lot of hard work and did thourgth research – but that does not mean that they cannot be wrong and this is why they they said that if any of their fatwas or teachings contradict the Quran, or teachgings then that particulars fatwa of theirs should be rejected, and the Quran and Sunnah should be followed. For example : Imam Shafi said , “ If I say something, then compare it to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His messenger and if it agrees to them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall”.

    You can refer to Iqaadh al-Himam, Al Fulani (Imam Abu Hanifa), Al-Majmu’ of an-Nawawee (1/63) (Imam Shafi), Jaami‘Bayan al-Ilm, Ibn Abdul-Barr (Imam Malik) and Iqaadh al-Himam (Imam Hanbal)

  131. @Sarah,

    “That’s understandable but you do know that you can be wrong even in topics that you are well-versed in, don’t you?”

    True and I will admit it if I am. I even asked you to go prove me wrong. You have not, have you? So stop with this line of arguments.

    “ If I say something, then compare it to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His messenger and if it agrees to them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall”.

    But Sarah, Shafii did not write his rules from his head. He referred to the Quraan and Hadith. You are just having a hard time accepting that your Quran and prophet can create such hideous law. Well Sarah, you either live with it or rethink your belief system as these 4 important scholars among many others have verified that such law is in accordance with the Islamic holy book and Hadith.

    Again, the point is Muslim consensus is already there. You can create your own religion if you like, but Islam has well established laws based on those scholarly works. If an apostate is taken to court, say in Saudi Arabia, the judge will not ask himself what does Sarah think. He will be looking at the works of Ahmad Bin Hanbal to issue a death penalty.

    When you convert the rest of the Muslims to Sarahism and they start listening to you instead of the founders of their Mazhabs then we will all be happy 🙂

  132. @Sarah,

    I think u see the chain of question/answers here.
    Let me summarise the thinking of reluctant, obstinate and “Master of All’ type people:

    -They are the one who quotes Quran (no history here, purely they talk about verses)
    – They are the one who demands reply from Muslims. If a Muslim delay in replying due to personal engagement, they say that Muslim can not reply.
    – They keep demanding for reply
    -Muslim came back when he is free, and he/she replies in logical way by Quoting verses from Quran in simply understandable way ( like believe then disbelieve then belive then disbelieve).
    I DONT KNOW WHAT MECHANISM SHOULD BE USED AND WHERE IN WORLD IT EXISTS TO MAKE SOME1 ALIVE AFTER KILLING IN FIRST INSTANCE OF DISBELIEVING THEN BELIVE THEN DISBELIVE THEN KILL THEN ALIVE AND BELIVE. FOR THEM ANY1 CAN BE KILLED MANY TIMES 🙂

    – Now they will not accept such simple and logical reply.
    -They will say and generalise that it exists in Muslim world, then the Muslim will give example of Muslim countries where there is freedom of religion and no such law of killing, where 62% of Muslims live
    – After this they will be based on history, no more in Quranic verses
    – Now same people who demanded reply will say that the Muslim is wasting time and defending Islam.
    – Islam says to follow Quran and Sunnah in context but these people will say Muslims to follow history and some1’s unverified comments. This is their attempts after getting correct reply from the Muslims.

    Sarah just curous to know, is it in some Quranic verses or Hadith that proves that “Islamic scholars have come to a conclusion to kill apostates and reject the verses of freedom of religion from Quran?” How to verify this? Any website I find in googling will verify this? Or new version of Quran has came recently ?? I realised that Muslims should learn Islam from Islamophobic people not from Quran and Sunnah in context.

  133. M0Q,
    Be realistic. We are not talking about “hideous law”. I am talking about the what those 4 imams said. I did not deny that they worked hard to come to certain conclusions but they are humans and accept that they could make mistakes – unlike you. And that is why they had sid what they had said. And I have quoted direct quote from one of them and yet you reject that. You prefer to be adamant and say “this is what they said” and reject what other things that have said. Isn’t that some kind of contradiction?

    Then you divert the topic to what the laws will do in Saudi. I am just plainly talking about the 4 schools of thoughts.

    I am not going to argue as I had already made my point.

  134. MoQ
    I forgot one point:
    “True and I will admit it if I am. I even asked you to go prove me wrong. You have not, have you? So stop with this line of arguments”

    How do you know you are wrong if you think it is right?!!! You can believe something is right when if fact you can be wrong.

    MD,
    As I said, they are experts.

    While the Quran insists we follow Quran and the teachings, they insist we follow the imams/jurists!

  135. And the 4 Imams say that apostates should be killed. And those 4 immams are authority in Islamic law. And they Say it is based on Quran and Hadith. Now quit going in circles and go prove them, along with the rest of the Muslim scholars, wrong. And if you do, then comeback here and dance a victory dance. I will even clap for you.

  136. MD Azad, do you really understand what Fiqh is and its importance in Islamic law?

    Just curious…

  137. Never the less, it is nice to see there are Muslims, at least on this thread, who go against the common consensus and declare you don’t really have to follow the ruling of the schools of fiqh if you don’t like them, and that you can take everything into context.
    This is promising, in a little time people can even write books and make cartoons and Muslims will not call out for blood anymore, there will be no more fatwas for murdering them anymore, that poor woman in Pakistan on death row for ”blasphemy” will be released and given compensation… The poor girl who was gang raped in Saudi Arabia will not get tortured and imprisoned for her crime, instead she will be released and given counseling to help her dealing with her terrible ordeal: Just like we do in civilized countries… All ten year old girls who were sold to pedophile geriatrics will get the divorces they are fighting for…
    The world is looking all rosy!

  138. MD,

    Do you also understand that in Shariia, laws can be taken from Hadith as long as there is no clear contradiction to Quran. Since Quran did not state a penalty for Apostasy, scholars can refer to Hadith in such matter.

    Here is the hadith which is most often used to authenticate the ruling of apostasy:

    “Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”Sahih al-Bukhari

    You and Sarah really need to understand the simple mechanics of how Islamic rules are developed. Your insistence on the existence of a clear verse from the Quran is not a good argument. Hadith was collected for a purpose. It drives the great majority of the laws of Islam as the Quran is really a small book and does not cover much of the laws.

    Quit going in circles. The rule for apostasy is not even controversial except in the circles of Muslim Scholars who are trying to paint Islam as a tolerant religion to Westerners and potential recruits.

  139. btw, Md and Sarah, I would love to see what happens if you were to stand up in Friday mosque and say such things out loud!

  140. MD,

    Do you also understand that in Shariia, laws can be taken from Hadith as long as there is no clear contradiction to Quran. Since Quran did not state a penalty for Apostasy, scholars can refer to Hadith in such matter.
    ——————————————————–
    [maroon]

    I very well know what is Fiqh. Ur claim is Fiqh certified killing of apostates, then why there is no law of apostasy in a majority of Muslim countries where 62% of Muslim world live?Isnt it the evidence that killing is nt the way for apostasy? your argument is the evidence? One example of Saudi doesnt hold water. WOmen are not even allowed to drive in Saudi.

    How can u say that Quran doesnt contradict with Hadith in this matter? Quran clearly explain in case of apostasy. U are removing the “condition” of killing (for spy with fake conversion) and plainly giving a judgement.

    Quran already said about apostasy with condition:-
    1) Fake case:
    kill if fake conversion for creating enmity and spying

    2) Normal renouncing Islam:
    belive then disbelive then belive then disbelive – Allah will not forgive such person. In this case, there is no question of killing.

    When Quran says not to kill for normal apostasy, how will Hadith nullify Quran?

    Anyway, I will try to change Muslim world. I will work so that Muslim countries from Turkey to Indonesia(where 62% of Muslims live) have murder law of apostasy.

    In between, u said Islam was spread by sword. Which Islamic leader waged war in Indonesia where 220 million Muslims live, world’s largest number of Muslims? WHo spread Islam with sword in China where there are 10 million Muslims? What about in Malaysia and with whose swords?

    If u say the war of Muslim kings as spread of Islam with sword,
    U know very well how christianity was spread, all by wars and colonisation by Britishers, Portugese, French, Spain. All countries u mentioned were colonised by christian Britishers by killing millions, they spread cristianity in this way in all over world.

    In between, I dnt know why u divert discussion.
    Exactly waste of my precious time 🙂
    Cheers 🙂

    @Aafke,

    What is Friday mosque? Is it like Sunday Church?
    I am not aware of such Mosque.

  141. “Ur claim is Fiqh certified killing of apostates, then why there is no law of apostasy in a majority of Muslim countries where 62% of Muslim world live?”

    Because, those countries were previous colonies of Western powers and they were left with constitutions which are not based on Sharia. The 2 countries which drives their constitution from Shariia, Saudi Arabia and Iran, do it.

    I never argued about political systems. I argued about Islamic law. Learn the difference. Do you ever make an argument without relying on a strawman 🙂

    “Quran already said about apostasy with condition”
    No Quran does not mention a penalty for Apostasy anywhere. Go find it if you can

    ” I will work so that Muslim countries from Turkey to Indonesia(where 62% of Muslims live) have murder law of apostasy.”

    Again there are many Muslim countries that do not apply Shariia. Turkey is a secular country Atatürk made sure of that. Other countries such as Indonesia, Malysia, Singapore, etc. were left with Secular constiutions. My argument again is about Shariia not political system (another strawman)

    “Which Islamic leader waged war in Indonesia where 220 million Muslims live”
    If you look at my list it does not include Indonesia as it received Islam through trade. That does not invalidate that Muslims invaded many places. Reply to that argument not your strawman.

    “U know very well how christianity was spread, all by wars and colonisation by Britishers, Portugese, French, Spain. All countries u mentioned were colonised by christian Britishers by killing millions, they spread cristianity in this way in all over world.”

    So what, where do you see me supporting Christianity or colonization (did I just spot another strawman argument here, do you see a pattern emerging?)

    MD, you seriously need to consider taking a freshman logic class. Strawman arguments are as basic as it gets when it comes to fallacies. You seem not to be able to avoid them.

    Again, my argument has been that Islamic Law (shariia) is represented by the 4 major schools of thoughts. The challenge is still out there for you to proof that my argument is false. And that Shariia does not have a consensus of law for Killing Apostates. You seem to run away from direct statements and continue to hide behind strawman arguments.

    Cheers.

  142. And ”the laws of the land” do not really have to do with actually killing apostates anyway. Muslims will just kill them regardless of the laws.
    And in a Muslim country they would get out of it scot free too, like the men who murder their female relatives for ”honor”, you don’t see them getting any punishment, certainly not for murder. Whole mobs can kill women in the street without punishment. The same would happen if the mob came up with the excuse of apostasy.
    And it’s all based on Islam.

  143. No Quran does not mention a penalty for Apostasy anywhere. Go find it if you can

    ================================================================
    @MoQ,

    I think u should accept that ur “I am Master of All” cant be true always.

    “Quran already said about apostasy with condition”

    1) Fake convert for spying, create enmity with ill purpose:

    وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا

    They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from theirranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and(in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks; (4.89)

    “if they turn renegades…kill them” – Its talking about hypocrites who attack Islam and Muslims, who spy by fake conversion.

    2) Normal Apostasy without ill pupose:

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً

    Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will notforgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. (4.137)

    بَشِّرِ الْمُنَافِقِينَ بِأَنَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا
    Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement (4.138)

    Here if they accept and reject Islam many times without ill pupose, GOd/Allah will not forgive. No question of killing them in this world. Now, u can check urself who is strawman 🙂

    No need to discuss Hadith anymore(as Quran should be given preference in Islam), things are very clearly written in Quran with conditions. No need to waste my time and jump in antagonism, when things are very clear.

  144. Aafke-Art, on March 6, 2011 at 1:05 pm said:

    And ”the laws of the land” do not really have to do with actually killing apostates anyway. Muslims will just kill them regardless of the laws.
    And in a Muslim country they would get out of it scot free too, like the men who murder their female relatives for ”honor”, you don’t see them getting any punishment, certainly not for murder. Whole mobs can kill women in the street without punishment. The same would happen if the mob came up with the excuse of apostasy.
    And it’s all based on Islam.

    ———————————————————————

    Thats nasty judgement from a hatred filled mind.

    Yeah any1, any mob can kill any1 for any reason but thats nothing to do with Islam.
    Go and see in Egypt, chrisitans will kill their own daughters in Egypt if they marry outside chrisitians.
    Same happens in Nigerian christians, Indian HIndus (if they marry outside caste). Muslims are not exception.
    And all dont do like this, minority figure in christian or HIndus or Muslims do.

    Also any country will create terrorists, finance them, will bomb entire nation and kill millions for oil, power, money.
    It doesnt need any relgion to do all these. So, ur judgment is filthy, nasty, hateful and generalised as usual.

  145. @Sarah – ” Are you in denial that there are many many people who no longer want to be Muslim or that there are Apostacy Laws that call for the death of those who leave Islam?”

    Thank you for answering but, to clarify. This was a personal question to Md A Ali Shah in response to a comment that HE personally made way, way, way up there. I was not asking for the ‘Islamic’ stance.

    Also Sarah, forgive me if I am wrong but are you the same Sarah that said that she was an Ahmadiyya Muslim?

  146. Lynn,
    I just answered because you asked. I apologize that I didn’t understand your question.

    No I am not that same Sarah.

  147. Sllightly off-topic but very much related …….

    Salute the Danish Flag – it’s a Symbol of Western Freedom

    By Susan MacAllen

    In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark. An elderly woman to whom I was close said something to me one day that puzzled me for many years after. I forget what the context of our conversation was, but she commented that I – as a young American in Denmark – should not let any Dane scold me about the way America had treated its black population, because the Danes in her view treated their immigrants at least as badly. I wasn’t sure which immigrants she meant, so I asked her. She answered that she meant those from the Middle East.

    Read the complete article by clicking on the link:

    http://worldmonitor.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/salute-the-danish-flag/

  148. MD,

    I have read those verses in Arabic many times. They do no have a penalty for Apostates. Even the scholars who interpret Quran disagree with you.

    #1 deals with someone who joins the enemy, that is not apostasy.

    #2 does not have any punishment at all. It is fallowed by the usual Allah is mad and he is going to make shish kabab out of you in hell. No Earthly law there.

    #3 talks about Munafigoon, not open apostles. By definition a munafig does not declare leaving Islam.

    You really have nothing in the Quran about punishment for apostasy. No matter how you twist the verses to try to fit your argument.

    You have read a few online pages from Internet scholars and think you have something of value. Internet sites interpret Quran in anyway to suit their argument for the day.

    Now regarding mastery claims. You have been claiming that you know more about Quran and Sunnah than leading scholars and some how I am the one who thinks I have mastery. Another fallacy to add to your collection it is called Ad hominem.

    Let me repeat my argument, which you have been avoiding for the last 2 days.

    “Can you falsify my claim that th founders of the 4 Sunni Islam sects (muzhabs), all agree on the Law of Apostasy and that the punishment is death?”

  149. Md ali shah, sarah and others…

    I don’t know if any of you noticed in the video presented the audience at home were given three choices for apostasy:

    1. A person is free to leave islam if he wants with no consequences.

    2. An apostate should be killed

    3. Let the law (I assume Sharia) handle it…

    If you watched the tally killing as apostate had the most votes.

    My question is what the heck difference does it make if Islam says that apostates shouldn’t be killed? Evidently the majority of Muslims in that poll thought that they should be. Where did they get that idea? According to those Muslims it would be an appropriate punishment. So even if islam says not to kill the apostate (and I think that it does), people are not following it. So now you can say that those people are wrong…fine, but what use is a religion if people aren’t going to follow it? (if we assume that your point about not killing apostates is right)

    And WHY does it feel in many ways as if Islam is conducted as a military strategy might be? There are rules for every aspect of a person’s life, can’t leave the faith,can’t question, can’t criticize, death for treason, Rules need to be followed to the letter, absolute obedience not to God but to the Prophet on earth…feels a lot like the military to me.

  150. Oby….because if you didnt have all those rules…and explicit punishments for breaking them…what would stop people from running for the hills?

    I was in the military and you are correct, every moment of your time is accounted for, every action you take has consequences, and failure to comply is punished…severely.

  151. @Oby,

    “Evidently the majority of Muslims in that poll thought that they should be. Where did they get that idea?”

    They get the idea from 4 top clerics, who codified the rules and laws of Islam. Shariia has its sources and those sources are the Imams who the 4 sects of Sunni Islam are named after. Unfortunately Muslims will listen to their interpretation rather than the rosy interpretation of MD and Sarah.

    “So now you can say that those people are wrong…fine, but what use is a religion if people aren’t going to follow it?”

    The religion is clear as I have shown by evidence many times here. There is no controversy on this ruling, it only exists in the mind of stubborn commentators here.

    “And WHY does it feel in many ways as if Islam is conducted as a military strategy might be?”

    Brilliant statement/observation, you hit the nail on the head. As I said many times before the answer is simply “because the founder of the religion was a warlord.”

  152. Kasia, Golden may be a wonderful person, but…

    She and all other Muslims seem to have no problem with the vile things in the Quran or the evil actions of their prophet. These are easy to find in all Muslims writings and so THERE IS NO EXCUSE for the denial we constantly see from Muslims here. There are 2 kinds of Muslim: those that live quiet lives and don’t contribute to this, and those that defend Islam and want to impose its values, such as they are, on others. If they defend Islam by ignoring the evil in the Quran and hadith, then they are not moral people. I can say that about any religion, but islam is in a class by itself when it comes to ignorance, stupidity and depravity.

    Being nice to people that embrace an ideology that harms others does not help anyone. The fact is that Muslims have submitted to Islam and its values, just like the word means, and so the issue for them no longer is ‘good and evil’ but ‘faith and disbelief’. To a Muslim, morality is relative but what is important is BELIEF in Quran and most of all Mohammad. For Muslims, attacking and killing people is only wrong is certain cases, depends on who and when. Muslims do not share our values or morals. To them, anything done in the name of Islam is wonderful because they believe it is perfect. If they reject that attitude, they are seen as unIslamic and even their lives may be in danger.

    Here, let me illustrate this point with two news articles that deal with this mentality:

    Quote 1. Malaysian Supreme Head Mizan Zainal Abidin has warned the people of Malaysia against questioning the constitutional rights of the Malay Rulers, Islam and the natives in the Islam Malay-majority country. He was speaking at the opening of the 12th Malaysian Parliament session in Kuala Lumpur on Monday.
    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7311118.html

    Quote 2: No room for intolerance in Islam: ISLAMABAD, Mar 7 (APP): Speakers here Monday at an international seerat conference underlined to promote culture of tolerance and peace by following teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah in society.“There is no room for extremism and violence in Islam to terrify public or create anarchy as it is the religion of peace and brotherhood. Our religion does not allow anybody to take lives of innocent people,”
    http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132901&Itemid=2

    So, in Malaysia, calling for reform is against islam. Note also the racism against Malays of Indian and Chinese origin. And this is considered one of the “so-called” moderate Muslims countries and where apostates are sent to re-education camps.

    As to Pakistan, this is one of the most intolerant countries in the world, where Christians and other minorities are regularly persecuted and killed. Pakistan exists because of Islam and is ruled by Sharia. Yet Muslims there write stupid things like this, ignoring the obvious. The quote ‘Our religion does not allow anybody to take lives of innocent people,”our religion does not allow anybody to take lives of innocent people” is probably a reference to Quran 5:32 but, of course, they distort the verse. Of course, if one opposes Islam, then to Muslims they are no longer innocent. Right?

    This is why the revolts and protests in North Africa will change nothing. I wish the best to those people and I would love to see Assad, Quadaffi, Mubarak and other tyrants gone or dead, even if it means the Brotherhood – that is how much I despise them. What will not happen is a liberal democracy that respects human rights because that requires things that are clearly against Islam. Too bad!

    People in the West need to understand that islam is incompatible with our ideals and that Muslims do not share our values. It is that simple. Muslims want us to ignore their writings and even what Muslims do and just accept their word that they are wonderful and Islam is all about peace.

    Instead of changing their ways and laws and treating non-Muslims like human beings, Muslims prefer to argue that others are responsible for all their problems or what we just don’t understand their religion. Yeah, right.

  153. Jay i understand where you are coming from, or at least i think i do. I know for a fact that there a muslims who do not wish ill to anybody and you know that too. They just want to get on with their lives. That’s why i asked Golden to tell me what to think. I haven’t received a reply from her but that’s another story.

    I don’t know where I stand on this issue yet. My logic goes like that: muslims believe in God, the qur’an is the word of God, therefore muslims believe in what’s written in the qur’an. If any muslim is reading this, please correct me if i’m wrong. For me there are certain things that cannot be contextualized that’s why I asked her to explain it to me.
    I tend to agree with you but on the other hand I really could not describe any muslim the way you did. Attack the ideology – yes, but not the person. They might be in denial, they might not imagine living without God etc.
    But what i really would like to know is how they reconcile it, how they reconcile their humanity with islam’s belief system. And what they REALLY think about other people of other faiths.
    I don’t know if it’s making much sense what i wrote but that’s just how i feel about the subject.

  154. Md. Azad Ali Shah

    Sorry for late reply.

    Muslims say that Allah sent Muhammad with a CLEAR message so that people would know what to do. It’s supposed to be guidance for humanity, sort of a manual. However, this message is so ambiguous that you have to turn to tafseers to interpret what it means. Let’s not forget that you should also speak arabic!

    We are supposed to have it on authority of Muhammad that Allah wants X. If we cannot turn directly to the Quran to get our answers then we have to either turn to

    A: Hadiths – which we have no way of knowing for certain which are genuine.
    B: Tafseers – which are based on the above hadiths, and add the subjective opinion of a scholar

    So, we have objective truth in the form of the Quran, which is so vague that we have to rely on the subjective authority of humans, resulting in the less knowledgeable being confused, or even worse….deceived.

    Well of course that verse i quoted is applicable after death cause it’s Allah who is going to do the judgement and exercise the punishment. „They are the worst of the creatures”. Maybe it’s not a LAW but it is a pretty strong statement about disbelievers and who they are. This is a generic statement that happens to be the word of God which Muslims believe. how’s historical context applicable here? Am I missing something?

    Plus what I understood from you last reply is that the qur’an doesn’t say HOW to read its own verses so I understand that the literalist approach is as valid as yours. I tend to lean towards the former one since the qur’an is treated as the LITERAL word of God and as you said doesn’t give tools to deal with its own content.

    How’re inheritance laws applicable in today’s UK for example when women work and simply HAVE TO support the household? how’s it fair for them?

  155. OBY ===>>>> And WHY does it feel in many ways as if Islam is conducted as a military strategy might be? There are rules for every aspect of a person’s life, can’t leave the faith,can’t question, can’t criticize, death for treason, Rules need to be followed to the letter, absolute obedience not to God but to the Prophet on earth…feels a lot like the military to me.

    Oby, great observation. Similar to “wife beating” in islam, here’s a gem on “child beating”:

    How to smack children to make them pray?

    Praise be to Allaah.

    Abu Dawood (459) and Ahmad (6650) narrated from ‘Amr ibn Shu’ayb from his father that his grandfather said: The Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) said: “Teach your children to pray when they are seven years old, and smack them if they do not pray when they are 10 years old, and separate them in their beds.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Irwa’ (247).

    We think we should enjoin what is not obligatory and smack for failing to do that which is not obligatory. We smack animals for disciplinary purposes, so what about children? That is in the child’s interests, and so that he will get used to praying before he reaches puberty. Fataawa al-Subki, 1/379

    To fully understand the military-like regimentation of islam, click on the link below … it starts at age 7:

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/127233

  156. Jay, I was born in the West and I am from the West. I don’t hold views that are incompatible with the civilization here. I am from here. I was raised with Western values, and most of them I still hold. I wish you would stop generalising about anything and everything. You mentioned two types of Muslims, and that there are no others. I didn’t know you knew all the Muslims out there. Amazing!
    I think you like to put people in boxes and you can’t really stand it if someone doesn’t turn out to be so simple as you pictured it. Gee I am a Muslim and I’m not blaming other people for my problems! I don’t even look down on non-Muslims. Imagine that!
    I’m weary of this discussion because the same stereotypes keep resurfacing, and people just don’t want to look further than the size of their nose.
    Lynn mentioned that she is not interested in the “Islamic” stance on things, and I do believe that this discussion is not about Islam, but about opinions that some Muslims hold, and the critics judging an entire religion based on that. I know that there are a lot of bad things going on in islamic countries and I DON’T agree with that, and I DON’T support violence or oppression of women. I watched an interview with a Saudi who hit his wife, and the interviewer said something like “Are you saying that the Prophet (p.b.u.h) said that men can hit women?!” and the Saudi answered “no, but I wish he had”. That’s the whole problem. Some people are just looking to abuse Islam in their favor. I will not participate in a discussion where Islam is judged based on how some Muslims perceive things.

    If asked about my view on things, they are simple. I think Islam encourages us to be kind and merciful to all, no matter if they are Muslim or not. I’m very much in favor of free will and tolerance. the Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion, and to kill one human being (not only Muslim!) is like killing all of humanity. I live by that.
    I believe Islam gives dignity to women. The prophet (p.b.u.h) never hit a woman, and told others never to hit a woman either, and encouraged them to be on their best behavior towards women.
    What I see happening in the Middle East, how woman are discriminated, hurt and humiliated, I don’t see all these things as a part of Islam. I also think that it won’t help to tell those men what Islam says, because basically they don’t care. There needs to be a change, yes. And I’d like to contribute to that change, if I can. I’m not holding any hostile views towards Westerners (I am one myself) or to non-Muslims. I’m sorry I don’t fit into any of your boxes. Too bad.

  157. Harry, but there are also hadith that the prophet didn’t mind when children fooled around and climbed on his back while he was praying. Another tells how the prophet would cut a sermon short because a child was crying.
    I suppose sometimes it really comes down to what one ”chooses” follow from ones chosen religion.
    Or what one is allowed to follow.
    This why you see ”fashions” in the same religion over time, according to the zeitgeist.

  158. Golden raindrop, There is a narration that the prophet hit Aischa so hard in the chest that she fell to the ground.
    And if the prophet didn’t want women to get hit he should not have put it in the Quran that men are allowed to beat their wives.

  159. ‘Lynn mentioned that she is not interested in the “Islamic” stance on things…’

    Hold on a minute there Missy! I did NOT say that. After you responded to a question that I asked a specific person, I said that I was not ASKING for the Islamic stance but for an individual to give me HIS own personal opinion. That is because I already KNEW the Islamic stance. See how people (not just us rabid Islamophobes) twist things to go go along with their prejudices? Jeez!!!

  160. Hadith by Aisha:

    Aaishah (Radhiallahu ‘Anha) said: “Allaah’s Messenger (Sallallahu ‘Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of God. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman.” [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee said it is Saheeh.]

    Forgive me, Aafke, you may think what you want, but to me the Prophet (p.b.u.h) didn’t put anything in the Quran himself.
    I also don’t see where in the Quran it says that you can hit women. If you mean Quran verse 4:34, I give you the following interpretation:

    If ever there has been a controversial verse in the Holy Qur’an, it certainly is verse 4:34. Used by opponents of Islam to label this religion woman-unfriendly (to put it mildly), Muslims themselves are struggling with interpreting it. For yes, let us agree about this: there is no such thing as “the” one and only correct interpretation of the Word of Allah – only Allah knows what He meant. We can only try to understand. And in this particular case, an alternative for the troublesome interpretations of this verse may bring us a bit closer to that objective.

    Let us have a look at a (partial) translation of this verse :

    “Men are the {qawwam} of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are {qanitat}, and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear {nushuz}, admonish them first, then refuse to share their beds, and finally {adriboo} them; but when they {ataa:} to you, then seek not against them means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all. ”

    Disobedient women?

    The key word to answer this question is {qanitat}, which is a feminine plural of {qanit}, based on the root {q-n-t}. This word appears on many other occasions in the Holy Qur’an , where it is used exclusively in the sense of ‘submissive, obedient to Allah’. Verse 4:34 contains no reason at all to depart from this meaning and to change it into ‘obedience to a husband’. This verse is about pious women who, just like pious men, are obedient to Allah. And a wife (husband) who is obedient to God, must live up to her (his) marital duties.

    Superior husband and inferior wife?

    Throughout the Holy Qur’an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way . So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: ‘to take care of, to look after’. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women.

    Misbehaviour?

    Is this verse about what a man should do when his wife ‘misbehaves’? The exact word used here, {nushuz}, means ‘discord, hostiliy, dissonance’. In this context it could be interpreted as ‘marital problems’.

    Beating his wife?

    The verse instructs a husband whose wife causes problems in their marriage to first talk to her about it, then leave the marital bed, then {adriboo} his wife, and all of this in view of pursueing a reconciliation as is evident from the subsequent verse 4:35.

    The Arabic word used here, {adriboo}, from the root {d-r-b}, has several dozens of meanings, such as: ‘to beat’, but also: ‘to forsake, to avoid, to leave’.

    How do we know which interpretation to choose? One way to find out, is to relate this verse to other verses in the Holy Qur’an and to check if the meanings make sense. In this case, let us look at verse 24:2, which describes what should be done in case of adultery :

    “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes…” (Holy Qur’an 24:2)4

    This verse establishes the principle that for men and women, equal actions lead to equal punishment. When for adultery men and women must receive equal punishment, surely there is no reason why they should be treated differently for any lesser marital problem.

    Now let us take a look at the consequences of interpreting {adriboo} one way or another.

    Suppose {adriboo} means: ‘to beat’.

    In this case, verse 4:34 says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed, then beat her and all of this in view of increasing his chances of a reconciliation. On the emotional level, this certainly does not sound like a very promising course of action. So let us check this meaning against the bigger framework and in particular against the principle of ‘equal behaviour leads to equal punishment’. This would imply that when a husband causes a problem in the marriage, his wife can beat him. At which he could invoke verse 4:34 to beat her again, so that the result would be a perpetual physical fight between spouses! Surely, this makes no sense at all. And indeed, it is not what Allah prescribes for the situation where a husband causes a rift, as will be explained in a moment.

    Suppose {adriboo} means: ‘to forsake, to avoid’, possibly, as Mohammed Abdul Malek suggests: ‘to separate, to part’ .

    Now what do we get? Verse 4:34 now says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed (forsaking his sexual satisfaction), then avoid her even more (not talking to her anymore, leaving the room when she enters it, and possibly even leaving the house for a while), in order to prevent things from getting worse, and on the contrary to let things cool down and create enough space in view of increasing chances of a reconciliation.

    This sounds like a very logical chain of events.

    Also, application of the general rule of verse 24:2 (‘equal actions, equal punishment’) now means that when a husband causes a marital problem, his wife should forsake a few of her rights, avoid her husband in increasing ways, and try to work towards a reconciliation. And yes, that is precisely what verse 4:128 says:

    “If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves” (Holy Qur’an 4:128)

    Understanding {adriboo} as ‘to forsake, to (gradually) avoid (more and more), possibly eventually leave altogether’, clearly makes sense when relating several verses to one another.

    And there is more. Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Holy Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Holy Prophet’s instructions about anger – which (unless it is caused by injustice) he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as “a living coal on one’s heart”. One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Holy Prophet said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger.

    Furthermore, Allah says in the Holy Qur’an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:

    “Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!” (Holy Qur’an 41:13)

    Therefore the word {adriboo} cannot really have meant “to beat”, can it. It must mean something that is better than causing problems, and avoiding the problem certainly is exactly that.

    Based on the evidence presented here, it would seem that interpreting {adriboo} as ‘to beat’, causes several internal conflicts with the meaning of other Qur’anic verses and hadiths, while interpreting it as ‘gradually forsaking, more and more and possibly leaving altogether’, is a much more logical interpretation that is entirely consistent with the interpretation of other rules in the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

    What makes much more sense, is that this verse does not allow a ‘superior’ husband to ‘beat’ his ‘inferior, disobedient’ wife. On the contrary, this verse appears to tell us that a husband must look after his wife (an equal partner who, like he, is obedient to God), and that when his wife is causing problems in their marriage, he should first talk to her about it, if that doesn’t help, he should begin avoiding her by leaving the marital bed. If that still doesn’t resolve the situation, he should forsake her presence even more, avoid conversations, leave a room when she enters it, avoid her company altogether, and possibly leave the house for a while, so that no problems are added to the conflict, and so that things can cool down a bit to maximise chances for a later reconciliation.

    Return to obedience?

    When the problem is solved, when the wife is committed to the marriage again, then the husband is advised not to keep using the incident against her and to consider the incident closed.

    The exact Arabic wording is: “when then they (fem.pl.) {aTa:} (with) you (masc.pl.), then seek not against them (fem.pl) means of annoyance”. The verb {aTa:} (alif taa alif ayn) has several meanings, such as: ‘obey’, but also: ‘comply, comply with, accommodate, give in to’, or in French ‘filer doux’. Consequently, the verse can be understood to mean: “when then they are committed to the marriage again”, or: “when then they give in to/comply with the efforts of the husband to save the marriage”, or “when they no longer cause marriage problems”, … Linguistically there is no compelling necessity to translate {aTa:} as “obedient to the husband” . Other interpretations are possible and indeed preferable. Earlier in the verse, there was no reason at all to translate {qanitat} as women who are “obedient to their husband” so that here there isn’t any reason to imply that this verse is about a temporary disobedience and a subsequent return to obedience to their husbands. It is not a matter of obedience to him, it is a matter of {nushuz} (marriage problems). And the Holy Quran advises that when one of the partners causes a marriage problem, the other should gradually avoid the person who causes the problem, in order to save the marriage – irrespective of who started the strife (4:34, 4:128)

    Yet of course, this is only an interpretation. Allah knows best.

    source: http://users.ugent.be/~hdeley/bogaert/bogaert4.htm

  161. hello Golden!

    since you are back i will be a pain and ask you if you could possiby answer the question i asked in one of my post as a reply to you sayign that we should put verses in historical context (with regard to just one verse i posted). here is my full reply:

    http://americanbedu.com/2011/03/01/usasaudi-arabia-new-book-explores-lives-of-american-born-muslim-women/#comment-60162

    but i would like you to reply to this part in particular if that’s not too much trouble:

    “Okay, you put those verses in the historical context, that’s great! but you should remember that the qur’an is for all people of all times.
    if you confine certain verses to their historical context/circumstances then i don’t see how the qur’an is universal anymore. or am i confused?

    for me such approach also begs the question of what makes it okay to refer to people back then in such terms? do you think it was okay then? is it justified because it was 1400 years ago? i understand you are okay with that, yes? please correct me if i’m wrong. and how exactly you contextualize it?
    thank you!”

    uhh and there IS a hadith saying that Mohammad hit Aisha and it caused her pain. I will dig out the ref for ya later. thanks again!

  162. Sahih Muslim 4:2127 Aisha: I said, Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain.

    It is quite simpel, the Quran’s point is: it’s ok to beat up women. That means Allah says it’s ok to beat up women, that means Islam says it’s ok to beat up women.
    So you believe it’s ok to beat a woman.
    S here we differ: I think it’s wrong and immoral to beat up anybody.

    Islam states that women are less than men, and they cannot remember things as well as men so you need two women’s testimony to equal one man.
    I know women are not deficient to men. Women are not lower than men, women are not quicker to forget than men.

    Your conclusion is Islam treats women equally and gives them more opportunities.
    My conclusion Islam is a sexist religion against women. It is greatly mistaken in it’s valuation of women. It puts women as the property of men.

  163. ‘…women are not quicker to forget than men’

    Well, that kinda depends actually. I remember EVERY single thing that my husband ever did to make me mad but I can’t remember ONE incident of me ever doing anything wrong but my husband seems to think that there have been times. I don’t know…I’ve only been wrong one other time and that was when I had thought that I was wrong but it turned out that I wasn’t! LOL

  164. Aafke, did you even read my last post? I most surely do NOT think it’s ok to beat a woman.

    Kasia, there is a theory that says that the suras that were revealed in Mekka are more universal than the suras revealed in Medina, because the suras in Medina are more focused on how to organise the early islamic community. I’m aware that this theory is not widespread and that some might find it offensive, but I think it would be interesting to investigate this theory more.

    about the hadith you mentioned, i found the following explanation:

    “Struck” is a bad translation here. The word used is ‘lahaza’ , which could be translated as “Push” and at most “slap with an open palm” but not a hard, violent slap (and note translating it as “slap” is weaker and less probable). A correct translation would be:

    – He pushed me (lahadani) in the chest (fi sadri) with a push (lahdatan)which made me sore (awja’atni).

    It is very interesting to note that “pushing” of the Prophet does indeed convey meaning – usually to drive away evil influence and thought.

    – Amir ibn Raba and Sahl ibn Hunayf went out to bathe. Amir took off his woolen robe. He [Sahl] narrates: “I looked at him and I cast the evil eye on him. He went down into the water then I heard a noise coming from him. I called out to him three times but there was no answer. I went to call the Messenger of Allah who came on foot and waded his way in the water. Then he slapped/pushed his chest with his hand, saying: “O Allah! drive away from him its heat and its coolness and its harm.” Then he rose up and said: “If one of you sees something that pleases him in his brother – whether in his person or property – let him invoke blessing for him, for the evil eye is a reality.”

    (Tafsir ibn Kathir)

    Similarly, in a narration it states:

    – Ubbay said: There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah saw how I was affected, he slapped/pushed me on the chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at Allah in fear.

    (Sahih Muslim)

    There is another incident when one Quraish man was trying to kill the prophet while he was making tawaf around the kaba. He kept getting closer and closer to him, and the prophet was receiving revelation of his intentions. The prophet kept asking him about his intention while this person was denning it but persisted in his goal and would try again. When he got really close to him, the prophet hit him on his chest and all the doubts and disbelief left his heart and he became a believer.

    The above examples and proofs go to show that the prophet did not hit Aysah as abuse or as wife beating, he pushed her as to remove any ill doubts or suspicion out of her heart of him not being fair to her (which is proven by the question he asks her in the hadith). He did the same to some companions and to many others he would put his hand on their heart, and pray for them, push their chest, and other proximity methods in order to remove the doubts or ill thoughts from their heart.

  165. @Golden- ‘…but I think it would be interesting to investigate this theory more’

    So, are you saying that you do not know whether or not the Quran is universal for all times and all places and that you need to investigate more before making that decision?

  166. It has always perplexed me as to why there are thousands of interpretations of Koran. And why there are thousands and thousands of Hadees to support and not support the verses in the Koran.

    It clearly says in the Koran that it is mubeen i.e. which makes things clear and manifest … Koran is noor-e-mubeen i.e. a light which makes things clear and manifest:

    “A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur’an that makes things clear (qur-anin mubeenin). ” [15:1]

    “We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’an making things clear: (qur-anun mubeenun)” [36:69]

    ” O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest (nooran mubeenan)” [4:174]

    And then why is it that moslems need thousands and thousands of sheiks and scholars to re-intrepret the Koran which claims itself to make verses clear and manifest????????????????????

    Just saying :)-

  167. Lynn,

    If you read my words carefully, you will see that I said that I think the verses from Mekka (which are part of the Quran) could be more universal than the verses from Medina, since the verses from Mekka deal with the fundamentals of Islam, and the verses of Medina are more about the organisation of the early islamic community.

  168. first of all, thanks for replying 🙂

    “Kasia, there is a theory that says that the suras that were revealed in Mekka are more universal than the suras revealed in Medina, because the suras in Medina are more focused on how to organise the early islamic community. I’m aware that this theory is not widespread and that some might find it offensive, but I think it would be interesting to investigate this theory more.” –

    could i possibly get a name or how this theory is referred to so i can read upon it?

    what is the widespread theory in your opinion?

    what i REALLY would like to know is this:

    according to that theory ^ chapter 98 was revealed as the first one… so i’m gonna be a real pain and ask again but i just would like to know what you think exactly of just this one verse i quoted. cause i don’t understand how it can be contextualized. to me it’s a pretty generic statement… how historical context makes it okay to refer to people in such terms? do you think it was okay then? is it justified because it was 1400 years ago? i understand you are okay with that, yes? please correct me if i’m wrong. by all means i wouldn’t want to misunderstand you. thank you 🙂

  169. Oh NOW you find importance in reading words carefully? lol

    You said: ‘Kasia, there is a theory that says that the suras that were revealed in Mekka are more universal than the suras revealed in Medina, because the suras in Medina are more focused on how to organise the early islamic community. I’m aware that this theory is not widespread and that some might find it offensive, but I think it would be interesting to investigate this theory more’

    Reading your words very carefully I see you say that there is a theory and then you said that you think it would be interesting to investigate that theory.

    Did you say that YOU believed that theory? I didn’t see that. Did you mean to say that you think that Kasia would find it interesting? If that is what you meant then perhaps you should choose your words more carefully so that people do not misunderstand you. Is English your first language?

  170. “We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’an making things clear: (qur-anun mubeenun)” [36:69]

    you quoted this Harry, but there is poetry in the Quran. The Quran used many different sources; from Judaism, early Christianity and the local paganism, to plagiarizing old poems.

    Golden raindrops,
    A push which makes you sore. And you want to make me believe it was a gentle action? Everybody translates it as ”struck”, and now suddenly it is a politically correct ”push”?
    Which was hard enough to make her sore….

    Goldenraindrops, you have converted (or reverted as the salafi converts say) to a religion which makes the big mistake in it’s holy scriptures to denigrate women to a second class status to men.
    This is God dictating remember?
    So you can’t do a u-turn and claim you do not support the view that women are lesser beings than men.
    Mohammed claimed that God says that women can be beaten by their husbands.
    Period.
    And a whole lot of other nasty rules which put women on a lower plane than men.
    And that’s your religion.
    Which is not just a religion it’s also a way of life which you have to follow to the T. It is for all people, of all times, and all places. And if you want to get out you should be killed. That is your religion.

    If you don’t agree with that, good for you! But then you should call it something else, because then you have invented a religion of your own.

  171. That’s your opinion. Period.

    English is not my first language.

    I’m sorry you can’t handle that I’m and Muslim and peaceful. I’ve had enough of this discussion, where people think it’s nice to turn more and more unfriendly just cuz they can’t stand to look outside of their box. If you don’t want to be respectful, than neither do i. Bye.

  172. bummer… i really wanted to know about the theory and maybe get some answers to my questions…

  173. I don’t see where the aggression is coming from.
    I can read and if God says women be beaten, women are second class from men then God is wrong, the messenger is wrong, the book is wrong. One of these explanations but it is wrong.
    And why should I respect something which I think is wrong?

    it’s too absurd you claim that people who can look further than you cannot think outside the box. You are saying this because you are angry because you cannot get your message across: that whatever religion says it is good, and if it says bad things it should be explained differently to make it good.

    May I point out that when we look at the Islamic world today you must be in a very small minority?
    I see none of the good which you shared with us acted out in the Muslim countries at this moment.

    Don’t you see hoe silly it is to insist other people should give respect to something which they think is: A- not true, and B- immoral?
    I told you before, respect has to be earned.
    I cannot give respect for religions because I see that they are made up by petty men. Very primitive men too, many ages ago. Religions are leftovers from earlier times when humans were scared of the unexplained and did not know much. So everything they could not explain had some magical origin for them.

    I don’t need magic to soothe my fears. I don’t have doubts and fears. Not even of death. I don’t need a make-believe invisible skydaddy.

    So to insist that I should have respect for religions and institutions which cause humans to do immoral acts, which, to protect their advantage and power over people are trying to stop science and positive developments of human society, is absurd.

    I will give respect to people, who are deserving of respect. Old superstitions do not deserve respect.

    But of course you are opting out of this discussion; you can twist and turn the quran and hadith all you want, but the problem remains that they have passages which are oppressive, false, and misogynist.

  174. Kasia, have you never noticed before that in these discussion we never, ever, get a straight answer to a straight question?

    As soon as an awkward question is raised we get inundated with straw men, diversions into; America is bad, Christianity is bad, the zionsts, etc, or a cherrypicked list paste copy stuff, and then the whining about not getting respect, about the questioner being narrow minded, being aggressive, being misinformed, not being able to read Arabic, (that one is a staple) etc.

    And it always ends with a miffed retreat because we are mean, we are aggressive, we don’t understand, we show no respect, we attack.
    Because a straight question is always an attack.
    Critical thinking is an attack.
    Not showing undeserved respect is an attack.
    And I think these are seen as an attack because our questions cannot be answered to their advantage,
    So they never get answered.

  175. Kasia. I completely understand, kind of. Yes, there are muslims who do not wish ill to anybody. The problem is that these nice Muslims, when faced with difficult facts, go into zombie mode.

    I assume that many of the Muslims that comment here are nice folks. Most. Almost all. Maybe every single one. Yet if I were to post a link to a hadaith – one that says that Mohammad would take his men out on an expedition (a ghazwa, ie, raid) and when he came to a village he would wait until sunrise an if he heard the adhan (Islamic call to prayer) he would not attack, if he didn’t hear the call, he would attack the village, kill, plunder, take slaves and give the women to his men – and ask those same Muslims to explain or condemn it, I would hear silly excuses or they would ignore me. Would they condemn Mohammad for his evil actions? Would they tell me that the Quran is wrong because it says that Mohammad is a noble example to follow (no exclusions or reservations) if a Muslim wants to get into paradise? No and No.

    So how the hell am I going to think that these people are sincere? Why should I trust a person that can’t answer simple moral questions or one that has a set of morals for some but different standards for others?

    I have asked Muslims about the difficult passages in the Quran and hadith, and to no avail. It is just excuse after excuse. I have asked these questions here at Bedu Inc (have you seen Carol’s hit numbers lately?) and Muslims haven’t exactly been lining up to explain.

    I really don’t have all or any good answers to this paradox. My gut instinct tells me that we (all of us) are heading for serious trouble (pain, suffering and death if you will) and Islam and Muslims deserve 92.5 % of the blame for this. They have a problem and they pretend all is well and Islam is beautiful. It is bad enough that they ignore their own writings, they ignore current events, too.

    We are doomed. At least me have May 21 to look forward to (I say that because I saw a big billboard announcing the end of the world on that date when going to work today. Yeah, Phoenix is full of crazy people, but it is worse than I thought! It is not just crazy people in UK newspapers. Somebody has way too much money and / or imagination. I guess Jesus’ words that “no man knows the hour of his coming” don’t apply to these fools! I wonder if they would give me their house, car or credit cards on May 20 since they obviously won’t need them after the 22nd. I ramble!).

    PS By “carol’s hit numbers” I mean people visiting this site, not the number of folks she has killed. You known, that “Foreign service” thing is a cover. Underneath that calm, sweet exterior and nice smile lies a heart of steel with ice water flowing through her veins. She was probably Section 17, CIA.
    Boy am I feeling silly today.

  176. Oh yes! The world is going to end!
    Again.
    I think this will be the fifth time I will be surviving the End of the World!

  177. well, i just wanted my question answered that’s all. i’ve been accused over and over again of ignorance, hate, bigotry, islamophobia etc. but when i’m trying to educate myself my questions remain unanswered.

    i think that if a Muslim, like Golden, want to change how Islam is perceived and presents Islam as peaceful, toleran, and elevating women then I think such person should be prepared to have their ideas challenged. i don’t understand how a bunch of positive verses and hadiths cancel out a lot of negative ones. some objectivity would be nice. if sb chooses to focus on positives – great, but it doesn’t mean that negatives are not there..

    “So how the hell am I going to think that these people are sincere? Why should I trust a person that can’t answer simple moral questions or one that has a set of morals for some but different standards for others?”

    ^ i’m wondering that too… hopefully your scenario of doom and gloom will not come true. but my personal experience tells me that when push comes to shove islam takes precedence over EVERYTHING. i really want to be wrong tho.

  178. If we are to put ayats in contect for place in time then I would suggest you start with the negative ayats concerning women. Maybe the women of the prophets time were forgetful, deficient in their intellect and incapable of leading men in prayers etc because women were hardly more than property back then and not much further up the intellectual pole in the eyes of men then say….cattle…but we’ve come a long way baby.

    Or is it meant that the ayats that are meant for all people and all times are only those that give to men…and take from women?

  179. goldenraindrop, on March 9, 2011 at 6:11 pm said:
    The above examples and proofs go to show that the prophet did not hit Aysah as abuse or as wife beating, he pushed her as to remove any ill doubts or suspicion out of her heart of him not being fair to her (which is proven by the question he asks her in the hadith). He did the same to some companions and to many others he would put his hand on their heart, and pray for them, push their chest, and other proximity methods in order to remove the doubts or ill thoughts from their heart.

    Hmmm. This is the MOST creative interpretation of the Hadees that I have seen regarding wife beating in Islam. I guess this gives moslem husbands a stronger rationale to continue wife beatings “in order to remove the doubts or ill thoughts from their hearts”. Sort of stress and/or guilt reduction :)-

    goldenraindrop, on March 9, 2011 at 9:19 pm said:
    That’s your opinion. Period. English is not my first language.

    I think goldenraindrop/Safiya speaks and writes excellent english. I dropped by her excellent website

    http://www. goldenraindrop.wordpress.com/

    and can confirm that I did not find a single grammatical/spelling error throughout her website. BTW, I am a retired english college professor :)-

  180. well i think i found answers to my questions:

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en/cat/148/ref/islamqa/10213

    not exactly comforting read..

  181. That was not a bad idea though, retranslating Arabic.

    If we change the meaning of about 30% of the Arabic language, that would make a great difference in islam.

    For example:
    Beating = caressing
    four women = one woman
    ”right hand women” = official wife only
    two female witnesses = one female witness, (because one female counts for two men anyway)
    killing apostates = giving a farewell party and good wishes
    taqfir = always speak the truth
    futuhad = visiting other countries bringing presents and sweets
    jihad = tourism (bring camera’s not bombs)
    marter = a really stupid person
    houri = chilled white grape
    kafir = potential new friends

    So if all new Qurans are printed with this new vocabulary, and everybody who speaks Arabic gets retrained in this more correct meaning of Arabic, Jay has nothing to worry about.

  182. Quote: As we clearly see from the Noble Verses above, apostates are no longer to be killed in Islam. There is no reason to kill someone who doesn’t deserve to be killed. Certainly if the apostate is hostile toward the Muslims and joins the enemy in a war against them, or tries to corrupt the Muslims then the matter becomes different.

    MD, do you actually believe these things your write. First of all, you always use the weak hadith excuse, even when it is not weak, even when its from the most reliable hadith. Second, it has been pointed out that all Islamic schools of jurisprudence say that apostates should die. Can it be that you know more than all the scholars of islam in the past 1200 years know? If it is so easy to figure out, then why do we have the situation today? Why do Muslims persecute non-Muslims wherever Islam dominates? Why do so many Islamic countries have laws against conversion?

    The fact is that the Islamic doctrine of apostasy is so confusing and vague that, according to you, even the experts can’t get it right. So obviously, once again you are telling us that Allah can’t write a clear message. As to the quote from a hadith of your dear prophet saying “Kill anyone that leaves his [Islamic] religion” – the issue is the same. Why did your all powerful god let that be put into the hadith? Can’t he keep it from corruption? Isn’t that what Muslims say about the Bible? Since that verse has been use to kill countless apostates over the ages, it is obvious that Allah and Mohammad have blood on their hands, and only you are perfect. Maybe you can join Allah and Mohammad in the Islamic trinity and clear this issue up once and for all. Obviously, Allah and Mohammad need help.

    If the killing were a matter of loyalty to the state, then wouldn’t have Allah made it clear? But no, the verse says religion, not or allegiance to a leader or state, so your words are empty. Just like all Muslims, you will find any excuse to prove that your Islam is perfect and peaceful, even when the real world says otherwise. Muslims are not able to logically connect A to B and C because that might associate Islam to that which is unthinkable. It is because of people like you that apostates are killed. You argue this with non-Muslims here but in the mosques you bow down and praise Allah and Mohammad and remain silent about these evils. It is very rare for Muslims to stand up on these issues in an Islamic society. It is easy to do this online or in the West, but not where it counts.

    Finally, there is the matter of some of your words above. So you think that people that “corrupt Muslims” should be killed. That is what you said. Poor Muzzies, cant even be responsible for their actions, so it must be the evil infidels that are corrupting them. Yes I know that is straight from the Quran – your god tells you to kill people that cause confusion or corruption (in more than just one verse). Not only does she tell Muslims to kill those evil corrupters (or confusers, depending on the translation) she even gives specific instructions as to the brutal tortures to use to kill them. Now that is so nice! What a loving, merciful god.

    Now let me just ask you this… What kind of god would use a silly, value word such as “corruption” or “confusion” (or Arabic original) when telling his followers to barbarically murder people? Shouldn’t have Allah used a better or more exact term? Shouldn’t she have defined exactly what is “corruption”? Is it drinking wine? Sex? Or is it asking questions about islam? Is it stealing? Is it bribes? All of these? What exactly is corruption?

    And yes, these same words from the Quran have been used by Muslim rulers and tyrants for 1300 years to kill opponents – most of them Muslims. All the Caliph, king or dictator has to do is say “You are making corruption in the land”, quote a verse, and then cut off some person’s head. It is that easy. Thanks to your Allah, Mohammad and Quran, reform is very difficult in Muslim societies because all somebody has to do is say “that is against Islam” and people put their tail between their legs and hide. Nobody wants to be “against islam” and nobody can effectively argue against that because Muslims really don’t have a freaking idea of what islam is or isn’t. It is that confusing and incomprehensible. Just as you argue against death for apostates, millions of other s will argue for it. Perhaps you should go to Pakistan and explain this issue to them. I am sure that about 2 days after you get there we will read in newspapers that Imams in that country and the Pakistani government have announced a major change in sharia, admitting that they have been wrong and that apostates are not to be killed. They will tell us that it was all a trivial misunderstanding and MD has cleared it up. Have a nice trip!

  183. Kasia, on March 10, 2011 at 1:11 am said:
    well i think i found answers to my questions:
    not exactly comforting read.

    After reading the fatwa, islam is indeed a religion of peace. NOT!

    After reading the fatwa, interfaith dialogue (headquartered in Vienna) being pushed by the saudi king worldwide is a farce. Actually, the king is exercising Taqiya (legalized lying in islam) for worldwide islam domination and conquest.

    And I loved this super-long salutation …. :)-

    Praise be to Allaah Alone and peace and blessings be upon the one after whom there will be no more Prophets, and upon his family and companions and whoever follows them in truth until the Day of Resurrection.

  184. Golden, If I offended you, I apologize. You might find this hard to believe but I can actually sit down with Muslims and laugh at life and myself. For obvious reasons we don’t bring up religion.
    As you may have noticed, I think islam is causing serious problems in our world. By nature I am pessimistic and cynical. This has served me well and keeps me sane. I think we (all of us but mostly those in Western civilizations) have turned our back on so many ideals that have served us well and given us freedom and great prosperity. We have trashed the concepts of family, work, our culture and our thrown morality out the window. As if we don’t have enough problems, our schools and legal system are corrupt and manipulated, our government is out of control, and much of the enterprise system feeds off the people. Our media cares only about its own ego and money. We have become a Rome-like circus and bread people that are easily manipulated and have no vision for the future. I see a resurgent Islam as a problem but not the only one. As I have said before, I find Muslims, well at least those here at Bedu inc, to be amusing.
    In the end, I don’t think what I believe will make any difference. I don’t think you will change either. We are all caught up in the stream of history that is taking us for a fall. But that is the way it has always been, hasn’t it? With luck, we live in a few decades where/when there is peace and food, and our family is happy. Sometimes people aren’t so lucky, but it usually is not their fault.
    If you think I am bad when it comes to islam, you haven’t seen me when it comes to education, morality and government. This country is going down, and I can’t blame Muslims for that.

    You take care

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: