Saudi Arabia: Day of Rage …or not?

As I write these words it is only hours away from what many social networks and forums have announced what will be Saudi Arabia’s ‘Day of Rage’ when citizens have been encouraged to stand up against the government in protest for more and faster reforms, freedoms, rights for women and solutions to growing unemployment and lack of housing.  Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister, HRH Saud Al-Faisal spoke out from Jeddah on 09 March alluding to the ‘Day of Rage’ advising that the Kingdom will not allow any foreign intervention in the Kingdom’s internal affairs.

His message indicates to me that the Kingdom is prepared to squelch any signs of growing unrest through protests and warns other governments to make no attempts to intervene in affairs of the Kingdom.  While the words ‘foreign intervention’ are interpreted as blatant illusion to Iran I do not doubt that is a veiled warning to Western governments, such as the United States, as well.

There may not be visible overt signs of disagreement or desire to influence, given the vast holdings of oil and its strategic location in the GCC there’s no doubt that America has its agenda for how it would like to see Saudi Arabia reshaped during a period of unrest and transition.

However, the ruling family of Saudi Arabia are long time warriors and crafty like the sly fox. There will be no hesitation to clamp down and quiet groups of physical protesters, planned or spontaneous.  I may eat these words later but I predict the “Day of Rage” will not erupt but rather just fizzle itself out.  The question whose answer remains to be seen as to how it is played out will be the “Virtual Day of Rage.”  Will Saudi Arabia place further restrictions and limitations on its media, bloggers, social networks and other forums?

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255 Responses

  1. It will be very interesting to see what happens (or doesn’t happen). Best wishes to the people as they seek better rights in KSA.

  2. The Saudi royal family may be crafty. They may not realize that they are a big drag on the resources of the country, but I am sure the rest of the population knows it. I don’t know if the country needs a day of rage, but it does need a day of demonstrations.

  3. The Facebook group that support shites based protests have 20,000 people while the group that against the protest and support the royal family and the king have over 100,000 members. I like the odds and wonder why we don’t see reports about this group? Western report doesn’t represent mainstream Saudi

  4. Wow, according to your news links on the right here it says that the police are firing on the demonstrators. That isn’t going to go over well.

    Saud, what are the names of these Facebook groups that you are talking about? I haven’t seen reports about EITHER group.

  5. The East coast has already been having demonstrations- they were fired on yesterday.

    Jeddah is swarming with security forces. I don’ t know if anything will actually happen- but they are definately concerned.

  6. I don’t think the rumored curfews were true, especially in Riyadh, as I myself was still out at 2am earlier today. But the streets were noticeably less quiet considering it’s a weekend. And police cars were stationed only a few meters away from each other on major streets, and some officers were even patrolling on foot. It’s really difficult to say whether any public demonstratins are to take place.

    I have heard of the opposition’s Facebook group, but not of the royal family supporters. I’m very interested to know what they have to say and agree that the media may indeed have been seeing only one side to this issue.

  7. Let’s not forget that a group of Saudis tried to ask for change in a very calm and dignified way, they wrote petitions, the best one you can read in translation on Saudi Woman and Saudi jeans.
    But the Saudi government has other priorities.
    I hope there will not be a ‘day of rage” for the bloodbath which will probably ensue. But I don’t see how things can change for the better in Saudi Arabia either.

  8. @ Sandy
    Nothing happened in the East coast I assure you. They had a small protest of less than 100 people or something in a small town of shite ( who have tried to cause unrest in their towns during after the Iranian revaluation in the 80s ). Anyhow all the western reports are based on their reporters in Egypt even though they have reporters in Saudi! And all of the report is based on small facebook group and on witness from these towns who are used to take advantage of any global attention in the region. The Friday prayer is over just now and people in Dammam city and other eastern cities saw more cars with the King pictures on the cars’ doors and the saudi flag. So its for day of failure for the traitors.
    The page on Facebook that is against any protests and against missing with our national security. It has more than 100,000 members. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_168978959817219&ap=1

    Why we against any protests? We have seen in the past how Shiite protesters act. On a T.V interview, an Iranian official said ” saudi protesters get the ultimate support from the Iranian government and Mullas” what about protests in his country?
    Also, protest turn into riot because of the traitors and wills stop business and people’s daily life.
    More importantly the majority of people don’t approve it and agree with laws that prevented it. For example, last week when one guy had a sign against the king and start shouting in front of a mosque in Riyadh, regular people in the street almost kill him if not for the police who saved him lol!
    So, I think the west misjudge the situation in Saudi and don’t try to listen to mainstream Saudi majority.
    Nevertheless, some reforms are needed but its only come from within the land int he hands of the leaders and the people without any foreign pressure or involvement because it is not wanted from the people.

  9. to make it clear about my first sentence:
    the protest I said it happened in small town was not even on Friday, it was during the week.

  10. ‘who have tried to cause unrest in their towns during after the Iranian revaluation in the 80s’

    Damn but they are persistent!! They have to be in their 50s or 60s by now and they are still getting up to no good!

  11. ‘regular people in the street almost kill him if not for the police who saved him lol ‘

    Thank you for that example of how Sunnis deal with those who disagree with them. It’s great to hear it from a ‘real’ person rather than just a ‘western’ reporter who probably doesn’t even speak Arabic!

  12. @lynn

    “have tried to cause unrest” means once and and this is the second time but BIG FAIL because the people now know what it is all about!

  13. Saud, ‘Nothing happened in the East coast I assure you’

    You’ll have to excuse me if I find that funny. I just get that picture of the Saddam’s man standing before the cameras insisting that there were NO foreign troops in Baghdad, everything is fine, go back to your homes…and now Ghaddafi is saying the same thing about protests in Libya. I understand the principle behind that but it just seems funny that they really think people are that naive. Also, how are you SO sure of what is going on in the Eastern Provinces of Saudi Arabia while you are sitting in your girlfriend’s bed in Canada? LOL Sorry, (snicker, snicker) sometimes I just can’t control my inner bitch. lol

  14. @Saud,

    “They had a small protest of less than 100 people or something in a small town of shite ( who have tried to cause unrest in their towns during after the Iranian revaluation in the 80s ). ”

    You sound like you use the Saudi government language. A protest is turned into Unrest. Yes the Shiiat protested in 1980. They only had signs. The Saudi government met them with Machine guns and arrested hundreds.

    At the same time some Wahhabbi Zealots protested, but their protest did not come in the form of signs. They took over the Holy Mosque in a planned attack with weapons.

    Guess who the Saudi government listened to. They did not make a single change to improve the conditions of the peaceful Shiiat protesters. However, the policies of the government moved to a more conservative Wahhabbi stance. Many see it as the Saudi government caving in to the demands of the attackers to prevent future unrest by Wahabbis. A good example of this just happened a few days a go, when over a hundred bearded zealots protested against the The Riyadh Book Fair. They wanted books banned and protested aggressively against the presence of a woman TV anchor. As rude and aggressive that was, the Saudi government did not call it unrest. Some how a protest by Wahabbi zealots is not against Islam, while the clerics are quick to enact fatwas calling all other protests unislamic.

    Saud ask yourself have the Shiiat been treated fairly in Saudi Arabia? How many ministers are Shaiiat? do they get to participate in governing in any form? can they practice their brand of religion freely? etc.

    Same for the people of Jeddah. Their city had drowned 2 times due to corruption, freedoms are squashed in a more liberal part of the country that wants to break free from the conservative practices forced on them, etc.

    Do you really think the Saudi government is not corrupt? Do you think they listen to petitions? Do you think the national dialogue started by the King a few years back has been anything but a farce? Do you think Saudi can have fair elections when they outlaw parties and labor movements and throw anyone starting a party in jail?

    Calling citizens of your own country traitors is a shameful charge, since all you have to make such huge charge is an Imam in Iran supporting the pretests. Of course Iran will support it, but that does not make protesters traitors to their own country. They are simply protesting against the injustice they have experienced over decades.

    People should be allowed to protest peacefully. No matter if they are a minority or a majority. A government that does not allow its people to voice their opinion is cruel and unjust.

  15. @Saud,

    ” For example, last week when one guy had a sign against the king and start shouting in front of a mosque in Riyadh, regular people in the street almost kill him if not for the police who saved him lol!”

    You sound proud of that!!! It is something you should be ashamed of, if you want your country to be seen as civilized…

  16. I said at the beginning the country needs reforms
    but unfortunately the Shiates protesters are based on releasing Shiite terrorists who helped in bombing buildings in the 90s. A year or so ago, in Medina they tried to destroy a cemetery of Mohammed’s companions which upset all the Sunni Muslims in the world and the 98 % of Saudi ( % of Saunnis ). They caused unrest during the Hajj season in the 80s to support the efforts of Iranians who killed Saudis in Mecca. Saudi and Kuwaiti Hozballah is based on Shites who tried to kill officials and Sunni citizens in Saudi and Kuwait in the 80s and 90s.
    I am originally from the Eastern province and I’m among the natives of the natives of this region. Shites who have no relations with the Iranian Mullas, can go as fast as they can in oil companies and in government but when they insist in every occasion to show that they are more loyal to Iran, or any outside power, than to Saudi and its people, this wont help them in anything.
    There are other groups of Saudi who don’t participate in governing. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, U.A.E all have no democracy and I don’t thin democracy was not meant to work everywhere due to the nature of these societies, even the Kuwaiti experience is not very promising. Votes are based on Tribal/regional and religious preference by the people.

    And I still hold that they are traitors since they listen to Mullas in Iran where protesters are killed and dealt with in a worse than Saudi. And for future referncce they didn’t hold sings n the 80s! They attacked Sunni mosques and a small Sunni town in Qatif called ” Annak” because many of these town’s sons are in the forces.

    For the idiots who caused problems in book fair, they were kicked out by the police and some of them were jailed after they tried to enter again. And they were less than 100.

    Following Saudi online and by following Saudis who have been abroad sine the 70s don’t give you much insight about the real thing. Begin there and mixing with people ( I’m not talking about the English specking people only) can tell you more.

  17. Someone called one in our family and said not to go out today due to the ‘Day of Rage’ being planned. As an expat here, it is not my place to say yes or no to these demonstrations. Women took to the streets and drove cars in protest over 20 years ago and ended up losing their freedom to travel abroad and their fathers were ridiculed in public.

    The outcry of the public against those responsible for the flooding in Jeddah, however, (for whatever reason) shook things up a bit. and King Abdullah is now looking into the matter and dealing with those who are responsible. Change sometimes comes from unexpected outside influences that nobody can control.

    In order for the country to change, the way the people think must also change.

  18. @Saud,
    You just toe the party line- you are hardly a reliable source, you seem oblivious to the oppression and corruption all around you. I don’t think anything major will happen at this time- though it might. You can never be sure when an oppressed population will blow. Certainly there is a major undercurrent of anger in Jeddah and the East Coast and among the oppressed Shia and women. Some day it will come together if the government doesn’t get it’s act together.

  19. @
    I am from the east coast originally. I took the day off from work and stayed in phone and with my family back home. I have family from Al hassa to Dammam to small sunni towns in Qtief. What you are saying is a bit exaggeration. Even though I believe much reforms are needed. I don’t want to go over the woman issue right now, we have to reconsider some laws but after all it depends on the woman’s immediate family attitude.

    You can think, write , analysis but in reality things are different.
    I see bright future to come to the Kingdom and its people and King without the voices of the traitors and foreign involvement.

  20. Lynn, on March 11, 2011 at 4:51 pm said:
    Saud, ‘Nothing happened in the East coast I assure you’. You’ll have to excuse me if I find that funny. I just get that picture of the Saddam’s man standing before the cameras insisting that there were NO foreign troops in Baghdad …

    Oh yeah. “Baghdad Bob” … who can forget him!

    My best wishes to my saudi brothers and sisters, especially the saudi shias and the saudi women:

    “O you who believe! If you give victory to God, He will give victory to you and make you stand firm.” (47:7).

  21. @ Sandy
    ” you are hardly a reliable source”
    Well I think I’m bit more reliable than reports that don’t have people on land and there reporters are in another country! And takes one side of the story without asking the other groups , and I am not taking about the government.

  22. @ Harry Cuggen

    you can find funny, sad, nice or whatever but in reality it is Friday time is 6 pm in Saudi. And the Day of rage turned to be another regular Friday but because of the soccer game last night where Al-Nasser got defeated !So, AlNasser fans are ashamed of going out lol!
    Reports on this phony revolution were based on Facebook groups that have at most 30,000 members while ignoring the 100,000 members on Facebook group that is against the protests and show loyalty to the land and the king .
    So again, people know when a call of change is honest and when a call of change comes from traitors

  23. @Saud -‘And takes one side of the story without asking the other groups ‘

    So when you were on the phone all day with those people ‘on land’ how many Shiites did you talk to? LOL

  24. ‘Reports on this phony revolution were based on Facebook groups that have at most 30,000 members’

    Did you give us a link to that group?

  25. @ Lynn

    I talked to family in Qaitf, they are not Shites but they live among them and in the town where some groups , with Iranian logistics, wanted to start riots.

  26. @ Lynn

    check my privous comments I put a livk for the group that reports didn’t talk about, 100,00 members against any kind of protest or revaluation and show support to the King.
    The other group the support ” revaluation” is mentioned in the news in AP and WP that based their ” hit” news on this smaller group just for news action, maybe to shake the stocks lol

  27. @Saud,

    “I said at the beginning the country needs reforms”

    Have you seen real reforms in Saudi? That same sentence have been used by every defendant of the Saudi government for decades. However, you still have a government with no political parties, no elections, people are imprisoned for years without charges (that includes the Shiiats they are calling for release of), no codified laws, education system that does not work, rampant corruption, etc.

    So when do you suggest these reforms will occur? It has been all talk so far, if you have not noticed. You must be one of those, who believes talk and no action stories.

    “A year or so ago, in Medina they tried to destroy a cemetery of Mohammed’s companions which upset all the Sunni Muslims in the world and the 98 % of Saudi ( % of Saunnis ). They caused unrest during the Hajj season in the 80s to support the efforts of Iranians who killed Saudis in Mecca. Saudi and Kuwaiti Hozballah is based on Shites who tried to kill officials and Sunni citizens in Saudi and Kuwait in the 80s and 90s.”

    Let’s take these 1 at a time:

    – Shiiat have a believe that they can receive Barakt (blessings), by getting closer to their saints (decedents of the prophet). That means they want to get closer to the burial grounds of these saints in Medina and even take dirt from the area. That was turned into desecration of the grounds. They have been prevented from entering these areas for years. Yes you may disagree with their methods of worship, but you cannot deny people their worship practices for years then have police attack them when they insist on it. It is this arrogant attitude of Wahabbi clerics that caused the incident in Medina.

    – The Irani’s protesting during Hajj. Yes they did. May be they shouldn’t, but the Saudi government met a protest with Machine guns Killing hundreds on what became known as the “1987 Mecca Massacre”. A blunt use of force on people that did not carry firearms and could have been stopped with less lethal force. The way the Saudi government meets protests has been with fire. Get real Saud, every government in the world has to deal with protests, they find less lethal ways to deal with them NOT machine guns.
    – Sunni’s are 98% of Saudis is untrue. Shiiat at minimum estimates are 10% and can be as high as 15%. However, the exact number cannot be determined since the Saudi government always manipulates numbers to their desires.

    Note: I do not support any religious groups, but I support freedoms for people of all kinds. In the case of Saudi, I see oppression of a minority religious group.

    Now back again to my questions, try to answer a few will you. Example: How many ministers are Shiiat? Can shiiat practice their religion freely? etc.

    So far your defense of the Saudi government not allowing protests is that everything has to be blamed on Iran. In your world there is no legitimate grievances against one of the most corrupt systems in the world.

    Look around you my friend, Saudi has many problems and the Saudi government has been in power for over 80 years without addressing them. Saying they are making progress is ignoring the fact they had plenty of time to move things much farther on all fronts:
    – Women rights
    – No real justice system
    – No codified system of law
    – People can be arrested and held for years with no charge
    – Oil money is squandered and stolen. Corruption is rampant.
    – Education system that has failed to produce an effective work force
    – Labor laws which do not protect foreign workers
    – A system of discrimination against all religious practices which does not fit the definition of Islam based on the top clerics of the country. Not just Shiiat but also Christian, Hindu, or Pick a Religion and it will fit here.
    – A process of handing power to the next generation of royals, which can produce a younger King and stability in governing.
    – Etc.

    The Saudi people should be allowed to protest peacefully against these legitimate issues. I do not think protests will topple the Saudi government, nor do I think that is a good outcome at this time. However, the Saudi government needs to allow protests and listen to its people and make rapid changes NOW. This will require BOLD moves from the King, not just another round of spending.

  28. Maybe the phony revolutionaries decided to go out for a picnic since the weather is nice tonight in Cournishes ” water fronts ” and postponed this ” day of BS” to next winter since its not doable in the summer 😀

  29. So, you admit that you are taking one side of the story without talking to the other side while complaining about others doing the very same thing?

    I did see your link earlier but you are talking about comparing numbers but we can’t check that because you didn’t show us the other one. Like I said, I didn’t see anything on any news about ANY Facebook groups that was why I asked you for links. You must have been to the other group to know what kind of numbers they have so could you just share that with us like you shared the other? Thanks.

  30. @ MoQ

    I am not going discues the reform issue, even though I might agree with some of what you said but not int he method.

    But to make it clear

    The Medina incident I am talking about is not about blessing. They went to cemetery and tried to dig the graves of some of Mohammed companions because they Shites think they are ” kafir” not Muslims and should not be there!! after 1400 years !! This was blessed by Iranians Mullas and they wished theat Shites can take over Medina so they can dig the graves of every one they think he or she should not be their, including Omar and Abo-baker.

    Regrading 1987 Hajj riots by the Iranians. You can go to Mecca and ask any one who lived there during the 80s , and regular person. They can tell about the terror they had to live when the Iranians started killing Saudis and other Sunnis in the street of Mecca. The forces maybe over used power but it was to protect the people.

    Shites are in Najran ,Qtif and Hassa.
    Hassa has less then 1 million people in it. if half of them were Shite. and Qaitf has 400,000 people in it, if all of them were Shite ( which is is not true ) and Najran has 200,000 if all of them were Shites and they are almost 1 million out of 17 million Saudis.5 % at max based on my personal estimations, you don’t have to believe it or believe the official numbers.

    It is not true that Saudi goverment didn’t do any reforms in 80 years, if so when I would not have a banker sister! or women with PHD and 90,000 Saudis studying abroad 40% of them are women. and the intro of a many developments in economics So it is a bit unfair to day they did nothing. Yet, I believe theres room for much needed reform but they way the people want, not foreign powers or people who look for power and left the country 40 years ago.

  31. Who were you directing your comment to about “exaggeration”? Was that to me?

    Interesting to ignore the women’s issue for now. That’s 50% of the population right there. Things should be up to the womens immediate family? Why? Is it tribalism that should be guiding Saudi or Islam? Human rights are for everyone. The Haia should get out there and demand an end to the vice of oppressing women and the vice of having tribal/patriarchal laws determine what women do. They should be liberating women from their owners and their near slave-like status. Shouldn’t an Islamic country be leading the way in terms of woman’s rights? They always like to brag about how they were first! But they stopped leading and in their pride also refuse to follow others. They would rather oppress their own sisters, daughters and mothers than do anything that might appear “western”. And that’s too bad. Because even the west doesn’t call “human rights” western rights. But I guess any excuse to keep women in their place.

    Anyway, I can assure you I get my info from many sources- though don’t rely that heavily on people like you who are actually out of the country and seem to place an excessive amount of importance on their tribal affiliation.

  32. Ever since Saudi Arabia became a country it has had a king from the family who organized all the tribes. Under the guide of this family Saudi has become a memeber of the World Trade Organization, the G20, has hospitals accredited by all international standards, has produced an astronaut, South Pole explorers, created cities out of the desert which has created wealth for a lot of Saudi citizens. It of course has it share of corruption like any other country, but, it is united in its beliefs of family values, regilious values and humanity. King Abdullah over the past 10 years has been working to bring the Kingdom up to all international standards and has tried to rout out corruption when found. King Abdullah has sent thousands of young Saudi’s to universities around the world for them to receive the best of educations knowing that these people will be needed to move the country forward. What is a King to do when Sheiks from different tribes demand different things on the same subject like women driving a car? Does he override the Sheiks and issue a royal decree or does he try to persuade the Sheiks to his line of thought? It takes time to promote and establish changes that the population as a whole can live with and abide by and King Abdullah knows this important point. Saudi Arabia has it share of corruption just like any other country, but, King Abdullah has been trying to stamp it out and make changes to correct it when it is brought to his attention. Saudi’s are starting to act like children in demanding change and change now!

  33. @ Sandy

    Yeah I believe of women rights but a lot of what have been said is exaggeration. triablsism has nothing to do with it, in one point of one tribes history a women was the chief !! Also in some tribal families if a man puts his hand on women he is not a part of the family anymore and no one will accept him. Women control most decision in many families, weather this women was 22 years old sister, 45 years old wife or even 77 years old grandma!
    There are some idiotic rules about women influenced by religious leaders. Anyhow, even in freer countries like Jordan some women lack some right because of their family, so this is why I say it depends on the family condition.

    I have national affiliation and its your chose to rely on people like or not but my advice is to meet more people instead of hearing stories and maybe get visit another cities and families from different cities and social classes to get a better idea of a society you suppose to be part of .

  34. ‘I have national affiliation and its your chose to rely on people like or not but my advice is to meet more people instead of hearing stories and maybe get visit another cities and families from different cities and social classes to get a better idea of a society you suppose to be part of ‘

    Oh NO he DI’INT!! Breath Sandy, breath… lol

    Saud, in your 23 years how many cities have YOU visited and how many people have YOU interviewed?

    But seriously, why is it that the King can’t decree that women ARE free to drive THEN the change can happen gradually? Of course not every woman is going to jump in a car and start driving, it may take a few years for her family to come around but unless the law changes then we can’t really know can we?

  35. @Saud,

    “Regrading 1987 Hajj riots by the Iranians. You can go to Mecca and ask any one who lived there during the 80s , and regular person.”

    I actually did that and verified that the Saudi government fired on the protesters. I also verified that hundreds died. Some with bullets and some from the ensuing stampede. The Saudi government version is just false.

    Note: I despise the Iranian government. However, firing at unarmed people is not something we should excuse.

    “Shites and they are almost 1 million out of 17 million Saudis.5 % at max based on my personal estimations, you don’t have to believe it or believe the official numbers.”

    I am afraid simple math escapes you. 1/17 is 5.9% it is not .5% even if we take your numbers 🙂

    At the beginning of your comment you said you want to avoid the reform argument, then you end your comment with the argument that your sister is a PHD, hence Saudi is reforming. That argument is BS. Do you want to have that debate or don’t you? Women still have to deal with a Mahram system, they cannot do much in the country without a male, they cannot even represent themselves in courts, etc.

    How about all the other issues of the country?

    You are taking the easy out Saud. You want to throw around anecdotal stories as proof while at the same time say you do not want to tale about reforms. Actually so far all your arguments have been anecdotal stories to dismiss legitimate grievances and accuse other Saudis of being traitors.

    Has any person the protesters asked to be released been convicted of working for Iran in an open court?

    Saudis have a legitimate right to protest peacefully pure and simple. The fact that the Saudi government does not allow independent foreign journalists to cover these events should give you a hint that they want to stop the truth from reaching the outside world and their own citizens. Instead we are suppose to rely on Saud’s calls to his family as reporting the facts.

  36. @Lynn,
    I’m trying to breathe-but I”m laughing too hard. It’s hopeless. He takes part of what I say- and answers it out of context- whatever.

    @Saud,
    I will give you this. King Abdullah has tried to stem corruption, and he has improved education including sending people abroad. And I am not necessarily clamouring for elections and democracy- I think that is premature for this population. BUT it should be the goal and there needs to be FAR MORE MEANINGFUL steps. There should be far more participation by now, there should be far more women’s rights. Sometimes he must take bold steps and LEAD if he wants to be the leader.

    There is no way to exaggerate the state of women in Saudi. Yes, many do well IN SPITE of the legal situtation. But the legal mahrem situation is essentially slavery. I have written many times of what some women I know have gone through- sorry I accept NO excuses. NONE. You are a young man who has probably not been exposed to what lack of human rights can do to women. But it is bad. And yes, these things can happen anywhere, but in Saudi they are legally allowed and the women have little recourse.

    And I am always happy to meet more people. Perhaps you should do the same. Perhaps you can visit some in Jeddah while it’s raining and see how that goes.

  37. Again I told you much reforms are needed in many aspects. However, the law sates protests are not allowed because if the police doesn’t stop them, clashes between people will happen and it easily can be turned to riots . its different society. You can say its a legitimate right for Saudis but I don’t think you in position to tell us what are our rights.

    Many Saudis who want reform don’t want frogien purser to help them achieve that. Only traitors will seek this help and try to serve a foreign agenda. Saudis who bombed buildings were even Al-qeada or Shites supported by Iran. both didn’t get to go to court , so I see the protesters who want to free these terrorists are supporter of terrorism against their own people.

    Anyhow, its Friday night in Saudi, people I guess finished the last prayer and nothing happened aside from people talking about soccer, stock matrket, fashion, travel Rashed’s new songs in Majlss and cafes and Shisha placeslol!

    MoQ, I agree with some of what you said but you seem kind of person who only wants to teach people about their own country and history even if its their area of interest. Again I agree with some of your points but not all your historical ” facts”.

    Note: Toshiba laptops, Blackberrys have calculators and I could do the 5 on it but I just estimated 5% because I estimated their number on certain cities ( I tried to go with max numbers from them ) 😀

  38. There doesnt seem to be anything going on in Riyadh, other than a sandstorm and bad thunderstorm followed by hail the size of large marbles!
    Went out to try find some “action” to take pics lol, but nothing was there the city is full of police, helicopters were hovering around the centre and there were some checkpoints and closed off streets. I think many people stayed home today.

    The only gathering of protesters I saw was at the international convention centre(book fair), these freelancer-muttawas that were gathered outside the entrance shouting at women to cover.

  39. MoQ, on March 11, 2011 at 6:20 pm said: So when do you suggest these reforms will occur? It has been all talk so far, if you have not noticed. You must be one of those, who believes talk and no action stories.

    An excellent classic example of “talk and no action” is that of the saudi king promising to lift ban on woman driving three years ago and it’s still the same o’ same o’ bs.

    That’s not only dishonest of the king but cruel and unusual punishment of not keeping promises and outright lying. Why promise something that the king cannot deliver …. after all he is the absolute monarch. Makes one wonder the games that are played by the king and the royals????

    ==============================
    Saudi Arabia to lift ban on women drivers
    By Damien McElroy in Riyadh 21 Jan 2008

    Saudi Arabia is to lift its ban on women drivers in an attempt to stem a rising suffragette-style movement in the deeply conservative state.

    Government officials have confirmed the landmark decision and plan to issue a decree by the end of the year.

    The move is designed to forestall campaigns for greater freedom by women, which have recently included protesters driving cars through the Islamic state in defiance of a threat of detention and loss of livelihoods.

    The royal family has previously balked at granting women driving permits, claiming the step did not have full public support. The driving ban dates back to the establishment of the state in 1932, although recently the government line has weakened.

    “There has been a decision to move on this by the Royal Court because it is recognised that if girls have been in schools since the 1960s, they have a capability to function behind the wheel when they grow up,” a government official told The Daily Telegraph. “We will make an announcement soon.”

    Abdulaziz bin Salamah, the deputy information minister, said the official reform programme had been dogged by debate over the issue.

    “In terms of women driving, we don’t have it now because of the reticence of some segments of society,” he said. “For example, my mother wouldn’t want my sister to drive.

    “It’s something she cannot grapple with. But there is change on the way. I think the fair view is that one can be against it but one does not have the right to prevent it.”

    If the ban on women driving is lifted, it could be years before the full impact is seen. Practical hurdles stopping women obtaining licences and insurance must be overcome.

    Mohammad al-Zulfa, a reformist member of the Saudi consultative Shura Council, which scrutinises official policies in the oil-rich state, said reversing the ban was part of King Abdullah’s “clever” strategy of incremental reform.

    “When it was first raised, the extremists were really mad,” he said. “Now they just complain. It is diminishing into a form of consent.”

    Saudi Arabia maintains a strict segregation of the sexes outside the family home.

    An unaccompanied woman must shop behind curtains and cannot hail a taxi.

    Critics believe allowing women to drive would be the first step towards a gradual erosion of the kingdom’s modesty laws. A woman would have to remove the traditional abaya robe to get a clear view behind the wheel.

    “Allowing women to drive will only bring sin,” a letter to Al-Watan newspaper declared last year. “The evils it would bring – mixing between the genders, temptations, and tarnishing the reputation of devout Muslim women – outweigh the benefits.”

    Saudi women have mounted growing protests. Fouzia al-Ayouni, the country’s most prominent women’s rights campaigner, has risked arrest by leading convoys of women drivers. “We have broken the barrier of fear,” she said. “We want the authorities to know that we’re here, that we want to drive, and that many people feel the way we do.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1576182/Saudi-Arabia-to-lift-ban-on-women-drivers.html

  40. @ Lynn

    I believe in my 23 years I visited cities more than many people who think of themselves as an expert of Saudi ( and perhaps they haven’t talked to people outside of Riyadh and Jeddah ). Weather during my years in Saudi or vacations, I have been to all cities of my eastern province which I even have family or friend in it. And all the Saudi provinces except for Najran and I plan to rotate in Saudi when I go back to settle soon.
    Studying in broad school in an Arab country. then then finishing university and then work in Quebec and travel around Canada and Europe. I guess the traveler blood I got from my father gives me broader understanding of whats going on in my country and the world. I think getting out and see the world and live stories is better than hear about them! Also begin a Saudi an a native of easter province gives me some insight

    Again, no rage or whatsoever happened and nothing will happen of this kind in the near future. However, I have trust in my King and prince Saud Alfaisal and prince Mohammed bin Naif to see more developments.

  41. @Saud,

    “I agree with some of what you said but you seem kind of person who only wants to teach people about their own country and history even if its their area of interest.”

    On the contrary, you are the one who is calling other Saudis traitors, just because they do not agree with your version.

    The idea that any person can be accused of terrorism without a trial, should give you pause (whether it is Shiia or Sunni). If the government cannot even make a case in a country where evidence is not treated with care, their no independence of judiciary from the executive branch (never mind jury trials) and defense lawyers cannot make good defense due to lack of court procedures, then do you really think these people are guilty? Do you really think you are judging these people as terrorist is legitimate under such circumstances?

    Now back to your statement:

    “Again I told you much reforms are needed in many aspects.”

    So, over 80 years the Saudi government has not reformed, nor listened to its people. Wouldn’t it be legitimate for people to protest peacefully? What do you have against peaceful protests?

    We are not talking about Shiia only, in Jeddah protesters were arrested after their city drowned. You should be incensed that such catastrophe happened 2 times to one of your cities resulting in the death of citizens and massive destruction of property. The reason is corruption. Yet all what gets your juices flowing, is those pesky Shiiat who are asking for some rights. Your attempt at painting anyone that protests against the government as a traitor is a farce.

  42. ‘Again, no rage or whatsoever happened and nothing will happen of this kind in the near future’

    Why do you think that it didn’t happen? Do you think it was fear or loyalty or just busy watching the devastation in Japan and gathering their charitable funds to help the Japanese victims? What were the police shooting at? Or did that not happen either? Did your family happen to mention anything about that?

  43. @ MoQ
    No my friend , reforms have been done but still to be done too. We didn’t have schools for girls before the 60s and we had them even some religious leaders didn’t want them at the time and many economic examples. I still see room for more reforms but the pace is decided by the Saudis, not others. We have to balance though and be we I mean we “the Saudis”.

    For why I call Shites protesters, in Qtif in particular as traitors its because the fact they show ultimate loyalty to Iran. You go to shops owned by them in Qtif you see pictures of all the Iranians leaders that show no good intentions towards Saudi. Let alone, the political connections and attempts to disturb the peace and bother Sunni villagers around them ( who respond in times of attacks . I am not saying all people for Qaitif like this but many of the protesters and specific leaders within their community who are well known for calling that Shites communities to from their Iranian allies state! Like they are even majority in the eastern province to call for that!! All in all, any one who support foreign agenda in Saudi is a traitors

  44. @Layla,

    “The only gathering of protesters I saw was at the international convention centre(book fair), these freelancer-muttawas that were gathered outside the entrance shouting at women to cover.”

    You know that is legitimate protest in the Saudi government book. It is a right to harass women. However, asking for end of corruption that drowned a city of 2 million people is heresy and treason.

  45. What is the foreign agenda in Saudi?

  46. Plus I consider them traitors when they go to Medina and try to dig a holy cemetery of Muhammad companions to get them out of their graves because Shites Mullaa and Imams in Iran think these companions are not muslims. Also they don’t hide the inattention of taking over Medina so Iranians Imamas can dig the grave of Abo baker and Omar beside Mohammed because they think Omar and Abo baker were not real mulsims!! Which Sunnis believe the opposite and think of them as holy , Sunnia who are the majority of Muslims and over 90% of Saudi

  47. @Saud,

    “No my friend , reforms have been done but still to be done too.”

    Allowing girls to go to school, is not enough reform after 80 YEARS by any measure.

    You stick with that story. No one believes it, I have listed specifics in a previous post that shows areas that have not been addressed.

    Regarding your claim of Shiiat being traitors, you avoided the question about the trials of these people you call traitors. Have they been tried in open court or have they not? Why does the government block independent reporting, if they are legitimate in their concerns about the population?

    You also, have not shown any concerns regarding Jeddah’s issues. Have the city drowned or were all of these youtube videos been produced by Hollywood trained special effects artists? Did people get arrested for protesting against the corruption that resulted in the floods?

    So far all what we have is your claims. Every time you write about this topic here, you sound more and more like a person who supports religious discrimination with unsubstantiated allegation.

  48. “Sunnia who are the majority of Muslims and over 90% of Saudi”

    So now it is 90%, just a few comments above it was 98%. Math Math Math Learn it 🙂

  49. In fact, I don’t care much about religious rules but if the people want them its their problem. I don;t have something aganist Shiites but I have something against them begin connected to Iran which clearly said once Bahrian is an Iranian province and supported unrest in Saudi in different times.

    For the trials , I told you that terrorists don’t get trials not Al-qaeda not Iranian supported terrorists. I am not sustfied with the justice system, and in most countries not everybody is happy with it. But change muse be forced at the justice system soon regarding number of issue but still I think terrorists should not get a trial. And who ask and protest to release terrorists should be questioned and I consider them as traitors, both Al-qeada and Shite terrorists.
    Medina cemetery digging and disrespecting the majority holy places is to show how Iran can move these traitors.

    Again I am native of Eastern province, Shite minority lived with us for hundreds of years in peace until the Iranian revaluation where everything changed and they started to cause unrests mainly and maybe only in Qaif.

    For Jeddha, people who protest where few as the video show and in the saudis news they said they were release. Investigation is going on now and names of some of the people involved spread around. Jeddah people know who to ask for more actions as Aramco is taking over many projects in Jeddha which is a good thing. But the protesters in Qatif is different issue as I said.

  50. MoQ,

    I was compromising with you about the the difference in % because you sound like a A shite activist I know who will I argue with me weather they are 5% or 7% in eastern province and didn’t get to go over statistical methods 😀 LOL

  51. and by thy way ” over 90%” include 98% ,english is your first language I think, but wait just forget about that I think you will go over English language then.lol

  52. At the end of the day again nothing happen and nothing will happen in the near future of this sort. no day of rage or whatever. The people know who to ask for change their way, not the American way or the Iranian way. We can solve our problems without thee need of foreign involvement or traitors efforts.

  53. @Saud,

    “For the trials , I told you that terrorists don’t get trials not Al-qaeda not Iranian supported terrorists”
    ……..
    “But change muse be forced at the justice system soon regarding number of issue but still I think terrorists should not get a trial.”

    How do you know they are terrorist if the government does not proof they are?
    So really, you just accept the government calling people terrorists any time they want to eliminate a protester, no need to proof charges?
    And somehow people asking for release of political prisoners is illegitimate?

    “I was compromising with you about the the difference in % because you sound like a A shite activist”
    That sounds like wishy washy position not a compromise. Regarding being a Shiiat activists, I do not believe in any religion (read my interview with Bedu), but I do believe in people’s right to worship including defending an the building of the Islamic Mosque in New York. So spare me the ad hominem arguments as my positions are very clear and consistent.

    “Investigation is going on now and names of some of the people involved spread around.”

    Was any governor of the region included in that list? How about royals who were partners in companies that received the contracts? How about ministers responsible for government contracts? How about the hearings being open to the public and conducted by independent party?
    Yes they will produce a list, but you are very far from getting to the bottom of the corruption. It is not reform if all you get is receive sacrificial lambs.
    Sorry, but you sound like putting your enthusiasm in the wrong place. The Shiia protests have not caused Saudis to lose their lives or property. The corruption caused both in Jeddah. Your arguments does not show that you feel strong emotion about Jeddah (i.e. Patriotism for injustice to people of your country). However, Pesky Shiiat will get you going. Do you see why we do not buy your arguments as patriotism and defending against Iran.?

    “and by thy way ” over 90%” include 98% ,english is your first language I think”

    No Arabic is my first language. What you just stated above is proof that you like to twist numbers to fit your arguments. Very weak 🙂

  54. ‘I think terrorists should not get a trial. And who ask and protest to release terrorists should be questioned and I consider them as traitors’

    Seriously? I think some of your compatriots disagree with you because they are very very upset about Guantanamo. Can you please talk to them and tell them to lay off because terrorists do not deserve trials? Thanks, you’re a doll 😉

  55. If you have insights about Jeddha. go and submit documents and evidence to the council .

    Shiahs protest caused destruction of a holy cemetery Sunnis in previous protest in Medina last year or so. Anyhow, you should have told you are Arab so I can write some points in Arabic lol.

    شيعة القطيف تبعا لتعاليم ملالي ايران نبشوا مقبرة البقيع في المدينة وحاولوا البول على قبور الصحابة في البقيع وفي نفس الوقت الملالي هؤلاء يؤمنون بان ابو بكر وعمر من المفترض ان لا يكونوا في نفس الغرفة المدفون فيها الرسول محمد وهذا ضد اعتقاد الغالبية العظمى من المسلمين في المدينة والسعودية والعالم الاسلامي.. فـ هم تسببوا في تدمير مقدسات وللاسف فان الحكومة لم تتخذ اجراءت صارمة ضدهم. بل اطلقت سراحهم خلال ايام

    Terrorists who were caught by the forces don’t deserve trial.

    Anyway, no day of range happened and it won’t. Thoughts of Saudi youth , who live there and returning back-home, are different from what some reports and individual try to show. The link of the Facbooke group with100,000 members against any kind of protests and support the king.

    All the best to my home-land.

    And I think I spent my day-off work on this post which is so much lol bey

  56. LOL there ya go MoQ, he wrote in Arabic the same thing that he already said in English and everyone knows that anything written in Arabic is sacred soooo we don’t need any links to reputable news sources or anything. LOL

    Saud, Does the arrest of the terrorist Khalid Aldawsari in Texas count as being ‘caught by the forces’? Can you call President Obama and tell him not to waste American time and money on his trial? Thanks.

  57. So Saud, Did the Saudi government have an open trial in the incident of Medina to prove the points you posted in Arabic? Was there an investigation released?

    I guess the Saudi government did not think they are terrorists, nor criminal. Hence, none of the following occurred:
    – A criminal trial was not held
    – They were released a few days after. If they were terrorists the government would have held them without trial.

    What you have posted sounds like the type of item you will find in internet forums that many prejudice people post at. They have them for both Shiiat and Sunnah. The point is educated people will ask for proof of accusations.

  58. صحيح الاثبتات مطلوبه سواء مصورة او مكتوبة لكن مالفائدة اذا كنت تنكر كل شيء مصدره الحكومة السعودية او المواطنين السعوديين ؟
    والكثير من الادعاءات على السعودية والسعوديين هي ادعاءات وقصص رغم ان بعضها واقع لكن البعض الاخر يظل مجرد ادعاء بدون اثباتات حقيقية !
    على كل حال النقاش طويل واذا كنت شكلت رأيك ولا تريد مناقشة اي شيء متعلق بالسعودية يختلف عن وجهة نظرك فلا ارى فائده حقيقية
    انا قدمت ماعندي والقارىء الغير سعودي او عديم الخبرة في الداخل السعودي الحقيقي يستطيع الاطلاع على كافة الردود والحكم
    والسعوديين في غالبتهم ولائهم للملك وللاسرة ويعرفون كيف يأتي التغيير لكنه بالتأكيد كما قلت بالانجليزي ليس وفقا للولايات المتحدة ولا وفقا لايران
    يوم سعيد

  59. @Lynn,

    What Saud copied and posted is a charge that the Shiiat from Qatif under the orders from Iran’s Mullas have tried to urinate on the prophet’s early followers. They are trying to desecrate Islamic holy sites. Blah Blah Blah

    No investigation or proof by the way. Just your random stuff you find in extreme bulletin broads, where prejudice accusations get tossed around from both sides.

    He does not realize/admit that the Conservative Clergy in Saudi have ordered the destruction (and I mean bulldozing) of many Islamic sites to prevent Bidaah (invented Islamic practices). I think some people will turn logic upside down to make their points.

  60. @Saud,

    Replying to what you worte in Arabic:

    – That prove is never accepted form Saudi government:
    There are 2 issues in the Medina incident, 1) proof was not provided, 2) the Saudi government does not have any credibility, due to years of censoring the press and hiding information.

    – The idea that you have proven your point, great let others judge your comments.

    – Regarding that people want change based on Iran’s and US agenda. False as the goal is to have a government responsible to its people and can be questioned about serious issues like corruption and human rights violations. It is you that is turning this discussion into an Iran agenda. Every Saudi should have the right to question his/her government without being treated like a foreign agent, shot at or imprisoned without a trial.

  61. ‘I think some people will turn logic upside down to make their points’

    Yes, I’ve noticed. lol

  62. what is point of discussions if you only take into consideration the sources you want to believe.

    You can think whatever you like write analysis , you maybe write in parts but you see Saudi as the darkest place in the world. So, its your time you invest in saudi issues which will not help us neither hurt us, because the people, locals, know how to change in the pace they think is right, not based on foreign pursuer and they showed their loyalty to the King. Saudis don’t need the effort of traitors either

    The Saudi “day of rage” fizzled, big time. hard luck traitors

  63. ‘what is point of discussions if you only take into consideration the sources you want to believe’

    EXACTLY!!

  64. Saud…you have asked and answered your own questions just as Lynn pointed out in the comment above to the point that you come off as someone having an argument with themselves…and one of you is losing. 🙂

  65. @Gene,

    You must have just read a hand book by the Saudi government. Let me explain reality to you:

    – Saudi sent an astronauts: They paid for it, the prince did not earn it.
    – Health care: Most Saudis do not have heath coverage. Most Saudi government hospitals are dumps, so Saudis have to go to private hospitals which they cannot afford.
    – Saudi government sending students to the US: Yes, because they cannot create decent universities at home (result of years of bad planning)
    – They built cities in the desert: With all the oil revenue which could have built much better cities (look at the UAE, Qatar and Kuwait for comparison). The top 2 Saudi cities drowned in a few inches of rain. Get real please…
    – The citizens are Wealthy: Saudi’s per capita income is less than a third of that of the US (and Saudi has all the Oil). It even gets worse if you consider the unbalanced distribution of that wealth.
    – The King is helpless in making change: If you cannot lead then get out of the way and let someone else lead.
    – It takes a long time for change: Try 80 years. NOT long enough for you.
    – Etc.

    And the jewel of your comment:

    “Saudi’s are starting to act like children in demanding change and change now!”
    Yes change has to come now, Saudis cannot wait another 80 years for the government to squander all their money and they starve after Oil. Talk is cheap and the King has been doing a lot of that for a long time, NO Action. The ruling family of Saudi had 80 years, that is double the time other countries in the region had (UAE, Kuwait, etc.) These countries are miles ahead on every front as compared to Saudi. You act like the Oil wealth is a property of the royal family and the little things Saudis have is due to the Generosity of the king and his family. I think I heard that type of tone in the Arrogant Saudi Government press releases and paid for books.

  66. @MoQ,

    I think Saud, based on his statements, is completely unaware that you were born in Saudi and used to be a Saudi citizen. He is working on the false assumption that all Saudis, except for those traitorous 2% Shi’ites, MUST support the corrupt, murderous regime in Riyadh.

    You and I know that isnt true! You are a good example of a Saudi who doesnt support the system in Saudi, so is my wife and many members of her family. But I guess none of you count because you are all traitors right?

    The ONLY reason the establishment gets the support it does is because it has been able to buy off the majority of the Saudi populace with the scraps left over from the feeding trough of the Saudi princes, who like swince devour anything put in front of them.

    When the money runs out the royal family and their lackies will flee the revolutions to follow and live comfortable lives with their billions stashed away in the West.

  67. @ Abo sinan

    if he/she ” used to be” Saudi, then its his/her choice, don’t talk as representative of Saudis when you don’t even live there and don’t intend to live!

    Alsaud family (the founder and his sons ) is the line that connect the dots in . they have historical grounds in the country , if they fall, I don’t have to share the wealth of my region and my areas in the eastern desert with other regions. I don’t want a democracy with the south or the west. but they won’t fall in the near future , at least during my lifetime enchallah !

  68. Nevertheless, I see changes to come in Saudi at the pace the people need and want

  69. Correction: Should say ‘at the pace CERTAIN people need and want’ No?

  70. @ Abu Sinan , again

    from your comments through your comments you are mulsim and to some extant believe in Islamic rules ( which I don’t always agree with , or at least don’t agree with its application)

    while Moq who sounds like Ali Alyami, people who left the country and don’t live there anymore , not blended with average Saudis. Moq as Ali Alyami does, call for a complete secular state which is way FAR from the Saudi reality, or even the general Arab reality. I don’t want to go into comparing but even Asian Islamic countries are not secular states. Everyone reflect their own personal opinions and experiences but calling for a complete secular states is just a joke as the Arabic mainstream, let the Saudis alone, won’t accept it.

    I think some people have their own worlds on their minds, and I think this happen when one stop traveling. And it happen when one who wants to change a place, leave it and think change can come from overseas!. Also spending so much time online create this virtual world that doesn’t exist on real life. So, people who really want to know about an issue, know who to ask and how to discover. But imaginary worlds are on the mind of the people who want to imagine.

    People who have no love for saudi can’t change it, only the people who love it to the extant they want to live and stay there can change it.

    Who attack Saudi in every matter without begin fair to the people nor to the land, clearly have no good intentions or feeling toward the country.

    People with real interest in Saudi will discover it with its both negatives and positives but people with hate will only hate it despite everything.

  71. @Saud,

    “I think some people have their own worlds on their minds, and I think this happen when one stop traveling. And it happen when one who wants to change a place, leave it and think change can come from overseas!”

    Oh man with little mind, where did I say I want to change Saudi. I have a very simple goal, I actually repeated it here many times. My aim is always just to educate. Whatever people do with it is their own business. I express my opinion and knowledge freely. You just cannot live with the idea of people speaking freely and exposing the issues Saudi has.

    “Who attack Saudi in every matter without begin fair to the people nor to the land, clearly have no good intentions or feeling toward the country.”

    You can search this blog up and down and you will never find me attacking the Saudi people. The system and its institutions is a different matter. I think the Saudi government is not just incompetent and corrupt, it is also responsible for a systematic brainwashing of the people of the country through a backwards education system. That education system teaches intolerance of others.

    You have to look in the mirror and may be a few comments up from here and you will discover that you are the person who attacked Saudis. No one will forget how you called your Neighbors Traitors multiple times. All of that for the simple fact that they are demonstrating against an unjust system.

    Now since you took the liberty to try to analyze me (wrongly I may add), I am going to return the favor. Here is what you come across as:

    – A kid that had a privileged life style where your family can afford boarding school. You are out of touch with hardworking Saudis that cannot afford these things and have to send their kids to Saudi public schools, where they get some of the worst education in the world
    – You are a tribal bigot, who still lives by the principle of my tribe is better than theirs. Our lands has the oil. Blah blah.
    – You are a religious bigot, who hates his neighbors for the fact that they have different twist on Islamic history. When are you guys going to let go of these fights over things that happened 1400 years ago?

    Saud, I treated you gently because I viewed you as just 1 of the million arrogant young people and had hoped with time you may learn better. However, your arrogance is crossing the line from just a mildly amusing debate to you starting personal attacks.

    Cheers!!!!

  72. Saud,
    Ditto what MoQ said, just as an FYI kid 😉

  73. @ Moq

    Yeah calling Saudis ‘ racists’ and ‘ignorant’ is not of any sort of attack!
    And yes anybody who have loyalty to iran or any outside power is traitor.
    And don’t talk to me about hard working saudis as a everyone on my family worked their ass off to be what they are, weather by going to school or working inside and outside the kingdom.
    People who want to educate themselves about the kingdom will talk to people who in fact live there, was born and grew up there and didn’t leave it forever.
    Saudi youth know what they want from their leaders and their land. They have different opinions but agree on principles. Its our time not the sellouts neither the haters and persons with suspicious intentions.
    We live and reflect the real saudi, others reflect their virtual world they live in. And people what want to learn about k.s.a and its people know for certain the difference

  74. @Saud,

    Listing facts about your behavior that you exhibited here is not an attack. It is listing facts, pure and simple. You do despise Shiiat very clearly. Which makes you a bigot. You may want to rethink what you wrote about your neighbors, if you want people to think differently of you.

    “Saudi youth know what they want from their leaders and their land. ”

    Saudi Youth are afraid of their government. Have you noticed that the entire country is under sever security control for the past few days. That is Helicopters flying all over the major cities, check points, armored personal, etc. And that the Ministry of Interior specifically announced that any protests will be stopped by all available means. That is code for “a person will be shot”, if you cannot understand. They actually have done that already and shot 3 protesters. However, in your world it does not matter, they are Shiiat traitors, right?

    You confuse Fear and Love!!!

    If the government is so loved by its people why are they afraid to let people demonstrate peacefully?

  75. Wow, now I have seen it all, Abu Sinan is in full agreement with MoQ, I have to come back and read some more of this. I knew MoQ was an Ex- Saudi, and Ex-Muslim as well. So what do the two of you have in common now, your hate for the Saudis, or the Saudi regime, interesting…!!!

  76. Oh Gosh !!!!
    Before I couldn’t believe that Americans are ignorant people but NOW i’m sure they are =D
    The guy is telling you that he is a Saudi and he is trying to tell you the truth about his OWN country and you THE OUTSIDERS are telling him that he is a lier =D so funny ! u guys are totally mind-washed by your media =D Congrats Saud You offered me a great chance to learn more about the U.S. people =) BTW i’m a Saudi girl and i’m from Riyadh we had a great Friday in the nice weather and we celebrated the failure of these funny protests =D Oh yeah u said u need an evidence (like investigating)
    wait for the The next post =)

  77. Here is a good post about the (non) Saudi day of rage written by one of my favorite Saudi bloggers.

    http://qusaytoday.com/en/2011/03/saudi-arabia-why-no-revolution-on-the-11th-of-march/

  78. it gets irritating when moq takes over threads because he has a rebuttal for everything! why does he bother with this blog anyway considering he left saudi AND islam? i say the man can’t be trusted! i’m not surprised about abu sinan agreeing with moq, he’s done that many times on this blog; it’s all a bit shady.

  79. So having an educated, thoughtful conversation is now called ‘taking over’ threads? Anyone who comes on here and has a different opinion that would prove him wrong about whatever he says is welcome to do so. If you feel strongly about something that he says why don’t you set him straight?

    Why should it be shady that MoQ and Abu Sinan would agree with each other?

  80. This is the typical Ad Hominem types of arguments you get, when people cannot make a valid arguments directly. The Saudi government rules with fear. I know hundreds of Saudi’s who do not agree with their government, but cannot speak. Most do not want a revolution (nor did I ever post here regarding a revolution). Demonstrations do not equal a revolution, they can be simply a voice of the people to let their government know of their grievances in a civilized, but public way. Silencing voices that question the direction of the country is not acceptable.

    So for those who think the Saudis should be oppressed and shot at if they demonstrate peacefully, can you try explaining your position of support for a government which shoots at its citizens?

    Simple questions, you try to avoid by your ad hominum arguments. Note, so far I have not heard any reply to these questions from the defenders of the system.

    How about answering this one, which I posted a day ago, If the Saudi people are in support of the government totally as you claim, why does the government have to outlaw peaceful demonstrations, cut access to web sites, shoot at demonstrators, jail petitioners, have military check points all over major cities, etc.?

    Saudi still remains a country where people live in fear of voicing their opinions. The supporters of the government are no different, they want to silence any criticism of the system.

    @Omgdns,

    “it gets irritating when moq takes over threads because he has a rebuttal for everything!”

    Get used to it, it is a free forum. I have posted simple questions, you certainly have the freedom to respond to them and nullify my arguments with a logical response.

  81. @Omgdns
    I”d say both Moq and Abu Sinan are pretty straightforward charactars- and so I have trouble seeing anything “shady” here. But then I’m not big on conspiracy theories.

    If someone dislikes a place and the practice of a faith- there are reasons for that, and they have something to offer to a discussion that the other side doesn’t have. So why should anyone be silent? And just because someone has left Saudi and Islam doesn’t mean they don’t have valuable insights.

    What do you mean “not to be trusted”?? That doesn’t even make sense. He is offering his opinion based on his experiences and knowledge. He’s probably the most trustworthy person to do that.

    People who try to discredit people without evidence usually come accross as being afraid of or insecure about what the other is saying. I’m not saying you are- but that is how it comes accross.

  82. @Moq,
    You are right people are afraid. I didn’t like the idea of the “Day of Rage” because the name itself is inflamatory. But several weeks ago when people in Jeddah protested they overwhelmed them with police and beat them. Where were all those police when the city was flooding? Everyone here saw the contrast.

  83. Omgdns, Sandy is right, we can see for ourselves how the Saudi government chooses to deploy it’s police and military forces.
    And that’s not to help it’s people in times of need.

    You’re just pissed because you can’t answer the facts Abu Sinan and Moq, and Sandy know and bring up.

  84. Shites who are loyal to their country are as Sunnis but those with Iranian Agenda like the one we saw in Bahrain by attacking civilians and damaging schools and attacking Sunni Students weather they were Bahraines or other Arabs. Those ones are traitors.
    People who want to know about Saudi will make sure to talk to Saudis who actually consider themselves part of the land and will try to make it over-there or at least close to there. You can say whatever, but your tone is clear. It is the Saudi youth time, weather the ones who went to school abroad or backhome and we do reflect the facts about Saudi. Others only reflect their virtual saudi they want to think about, or reflect their limited experience in saudi and generalize it.

  85. التعبير ولو افترضنا ان التظاهر حق، لكن ليس حقا المبيت في الشوراع واعتراض الطرق وتسكير الممرات والاعتداء على المدارس وتعطيل الأعمال. ما يحدث في البحرين تخريب وتعدي على الحقوق. هذه التصرفات مخالفة للشرائع السماوية والإنسانية؛ فأدنى الحقوق هو إعطاء الطريق حقه، وهي أقل مراتب الإيمان، ومن لا يفقه هذه المعادلة لن يفهم الحقوق. من يؤسس العنف في الحقوق يجني العنف. فشلت هذه المطالبات وفقدت شرعيتها.

  86. And the Saudi forces dealt with the 50 people protest in a very respectful way since thy didn’t try do any thing to heart others and these Shites , because they had loyalty to the people and the land, didn’t continue to do what some Iranian backed groups tried to do, establish new Hezbollah in the region.

  87. @Saud,

    First comment is a repeat of your normal jargon, not worth responding to again. Your prejudice is well known by now.

    The second: you know this is an English blog. I think it is a sign of disrespect to the owner for you to write in a language she cannot read. Never the less, I will have to translate it before I respond to your weird comment. Saud’s argument is about Bahrain this time. With the following main points:

    1) The Bahrain Shiiats are also Iranian agents
    2) Demonstrators have been closing roads and schools. The right to access roads is one of the basic rights of individuals. Hence it is in violation of all human and divine laws.
    3) The Bahrini demonstrations failed measurably.

    Yes, I have to make a rebuttal and irritate Omgdns 🙂 I think such BS should always be responded to, since Saud is becoming a propaganda machine.

    1) Continue talking like this and all you will do is reinforce the bigotry picture you have already formed here.
    2) So the right to access road is more important than justice, freedoms, life, etc. Nice logic there! Also for your information when a demonstration has more people it is very likely it will close roads. It happens every where in the world as sheer size of the crowd may make a road inaccessible. Have you thought of a little tiny detail, that may be just may be the people demonstrating also have right to access the road also.

    Another thing you forgot to count in your comment, is that your lies do not work in the case of Bahrain. The incident was covered by international media from multiple countries, giving us an unbiased coverage. The pictures clearly showed the attacks of the police with brutal force on peaceful demonstrators. They also showed people with gunshot wounds in hospitals. Some died. In all that time the Bahraini demonstrators remained peaceful. And they retook Pearl Square, because the world was watching and the government was shamed into pulling down its forces. Think for a minute grasshopper, Isn’t that exactly the reason the Saudi government won’t allow world media in to cover the Qatif demonstrations?

    3) The Bahrain demonstrations did not fail. It brought the government to the negotiation table. Actually, just today the crown prince announced that he is offering a) more power to the parliament to make it inline with similar law creating bodies in other countries b) to hold freer and more honest elections c) to hold public investigation into corruption and false naturalization issues.

    All of the above are part of the top demands of the demonstrators. In some twist of logic, you term that a failure 🙂

    Regarding your video. Here is a video from 3/10. The demonstrators are chanting “Peaceful” and not doing anything violent, but you hear the gun fire in the background from the Saudi police.

    There are many of these on youtube. However, you found only one video that can fit your argument. Also, there is a video of a larger demonstration on 3/11, for anyone to find (I do not want to clog the blog with more videos). You know the demonstration, that did not happen according to the reporting you were getting from home….

  88. The roads were blocked by Bahraini demonstrators who terrorised the casual drivers or those going to work. Protestors also went to the University with weapons (knives) demanding naturalized Bahraines to leave and for their passports to be revoked!

    You cannot always talk about rights and support the demonstrators. They are halting the daily life. Children are not in schools, teachers are encouraging students to protest! So you say they are only asking for their rights? What about the rights of these children, rights of innocent citizens; rights of people who earned their citizenships leggaly?

    Even the thinnest pancake has 2 sides.

  89. @ MoQ

    What happening in Bahrain is far away from demonstration. It is more like a riot and one Iranian groups ( as their leader clearly said they are backed by the “Islamic’ Mullas of Iran ) .
    What happening in Bahrain is the Hezbollah-like militias taking over the streets , while at the same time try to gain the west side by claiming its peaceful protests. As Sara said and everyone who is in the eastern province or Bahrain knows, people are stopped by those ” peaceful” protesters from going to work , universities were attacked just to cross their sectarian and Iranian agenda . Just few years ago an Iranian official claimed Bahrain as an Iranian province, the same official that number of the leaders of these protesters announce loyalty to him ” elmoresdh al’ala “.
    Demonstration in Qtif could easily turn to ones like Bahrain but they are not 40% or 50% , some of them have good intentions but I don’t trust a Shites leader with the Iranian flag in his office background .
    I can post 100 videos showing the damage of riots in Bahrain and at the same time these rioters are chanting “peaceful.. peaceful” while running over a policeman and beating up an Arab worker just because he is from Jordan ” hence, Sunni ” or even trying to attack El Refa while most Sunnis are, where they was able to attack one house but people responded.
    International media now are looking intro this part of the story. and the Bahrain Hezbollah lies are becoming clear to the people from outside the region.
    Please, you clearly talk just for the sake of taking reflecting your virtual world where your words are facts and you are the one in U.S and know everything about anything in the Gulf and even the small neighborhoods of the eastern province and giving ” facts” about life of Saudi that as the Englishman said could apply to any country!
    Some Shites who have no loyalty to Iran are just like any others in the gulf but ones intentions to establish Hezbollah in the gulf , we have seen in Kuwait and Bahrain and they tried to do so in Saudi. Their equivalent where ” Al qeada ” in the gulf and they were jailed and killed.

    You will come back with your imaginary ” facts” that no one can argue even if they were from the place you are talking. Know I see why they say ” go out .. see it” because of the virtual world people create online.

    Sellouts are not the only ones who have voice, Saudi and the Gulf youth have one too and sellouts and The Saudi youth are not on the same page.

  90. Everyone with the ability to SEE and LISTEN and THINK will realize that those thugs running around Bahrain causing chaos are NOT the Bahraini Shiias but men hired by the govt to do that. Why else are these same men shown with knives and 2×4’s mingling AMONG the police and not being arrested etc and yet the Shiias on Pearl Roundabout that night were attacked presumably because they had swords and sticks? Meanwhile I have yet to see a single video etc showing the Shiias attacking police or holding weapons of any kind…and then only throwing rocks or reacting AFTER the police shot at them when they were unarmed!!!

    Not to mention Bahrain TV is freakin farce as far as news coverage goes….it is a disgrace to news everywhere. Makes Fox News look highbrow and legit in comparison.

    Saud, Sarah, if you think it’s the Shiia destroying that country and making chaos and divide…you need to open your eyes. So far not a single Arab govt that has had to deal with this current wave of uprising has responded in a civil way…its been shoot first and dont ask any questions at all UNLESS the international media happens to be paying attention.

  91. @ Coolred38

    what would you call this http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/189025_110398479041101_100002128482374_97708_1430507_n.jpg

    closing the main road on Bahrain, forcing people not to go to work and schools.
    Saudi, Kuwaiti, Omani and Jordanian students were attacked on university by the rioter .
    2 Pakistanis workers who happen to be Sunni were attacked, one of them got killed.
    Medent Hamad, which is a Saunni neighborhood was attacked when the rioter entred and tried to break into a Jordanian-Bahraine house.
    The situation in Bahrain is not like Tunisia or Egypt. In Bahrain, one group who doesn’t even make the majority, try to take over the country. Just like what Hezbollah tried to do in 2007, and the common thing between the two is they are backed by Iran.
    The demonstration in front of AL fateh mosque were to show support to the king and ask for ending for these protests that damaged the daily life in Bahrain by blocking roads and riots. This demonstration was huge and it was covered by international media.
    Mshema, one of the opposition leader who came from London said on the first day that Sunni of Bahrain should not fear the change and Iran will take them under its protection! The intention is clear
    People of Bahrain and the gulf will not tolerate this kind of terrorism any more.

  92. This is not a recent problem in Bahrain and its been going on for years. I have lived through it and still am. Do you honestly think that people who love the country will attempt to ruin its economy? Will they allow the children to take part in these protests and stay away from school? What kind of parents are these? What kind of educators are those who encourage students to go out and protest!

    ” those thugs running around Bahrain causing chaos are NOT the Bahraini Shiias but men hired by the govt to do that” – loooooool. And you know that how exactly? From Facebook and twitter?

    There are lot of dramas acted out in front of foreign cameramen. It was even caught on a peronal cell phone camera, where the protester faked blood on himself and pretended to faint. They terrorized a woman and her family just because she challenged their road block.

    Security forces are there to maintain peace and control the chaos. They are not there to arrest the people. Even in KSA police fired in the air not at the people. There are laws of the country and security forces are there for certain purpose. Of course they have to defend the country. Do you suppose they allow the thugs to destroy the country while they wait and watch because the protestors have “rights” to voice their opinions? They are invited for dialog so why are they not speaking peacefully instead of reacting in such violent ways?In KSA, they have open forum where anyone can go and speak out his concerns. Whats stopping them?

    Tahrir is just what they needed to ignite their pent up anger.

  93. Very sad. 😦

    Sara…there were ads placed in Pakistan newspapers by Bahrains govt recruiting Pakistanis to come work in Bahrain exactly for this reason…they are hired thugs and you can see many Pakistanis in lots of the pics and videos of the ones doing the destruction.

    The govt brought the thugs…and now using them to create chaos to do exactly what it has always done…keep Shiias and Sunnis divided.

  94. Coolred,
    They have a lot of Yemeni commandoes to do the job and they were at it all these years. Do you think that Bah gov will place open ads such as hiring thugs?

    Now GCC forces are joining Bah forces. They don”t have to hire thugs and make themselves to be on par with dramas with other group thugs.

  95. I second Sara’s comment. Also I may add every bloc and country has its situation and the people of that country know it. You can’t hold your views and approaches in your country as standard for the whole world.
    GCC countries have common goals and have a very similar social fabric . Damaging one country economy and its people can’t be tolerate it even if these riot use whatever to cover their intentions.
    These same groups have had the habit of destroying public properties during formula 1 events. Also, yesterday and they day before they crossed the line by attacking Arab and Bahraine Students, also streets in Reffa3 and Mdenat Hamad. Blocking streets and forcing people not to get to their work and damage the economy. This is not a call for reforms.

  96. ‘Blocking streets and forcing people not to get to their work and damage the economy. This is not a call for reforms’

    Actually, yes, yes it is! And a peaceful one at that! At least they aren’t planting car bombs or wearing suicide vests to the police stations or markets as some ‘Sunnis’ we’ve seen.

  97. @SAUD: Damaging one country economy and its people can’t be tolerate it even if these riot use whatever to cover their intentions.

    Yup, soviets used to think exactly that same way about its’ satellites …. hungary, romania, poland, czechoslovakia, afghanistan, etc!!!!!

  98. Saud…there have been plenty of witnesses and videos put up showing those men doing the attacking.. NOT youths like BTV and the local papers keep describing them as….and right now they have roads blocked and are stopping people asking if they are Muslim or “rafithi”…slang term for Shiia that Sunnis and the govt use…in reference to them not being considered real muslim…

    So believe as you wish…people are living the truth while you wallow in wishful thinking.

  99. And NOW bahrain govt has called in the Saudi military AND Emirates troops to come save them…spread the killing among yourselves then Shiias cant say it was just our own Sunni govt killed us. Meanwhile Libya burns to the ground and not ONE arab country is sending troops to help them. Sweet. Pick and choose as usual.

  100. Coolred38

    Yeah, people are living the truth, People on the ground not online. People who were forced not to leave their houses by the so called protesters and who were attack by these hooligans in their schools. People who live there know and want to get security back and they will get it. The gathering of people against these hooligans in forn of AL-faeh mosque. is a clear message about the situation. Enough said by the people, not the rioters

  101. @Saud,
    I’m guessing Coolred knows more about Bahrain than you do….just sayin’

  102. Sandy, How could Coolred know more? She isn’t THERE, on the ground, she is just on-line! Oh yeah, that’s right, just like Saud! LOL

  103. Yes. I’d take coolred’s evaluation of the situation in Bahrain above Saud’s and Sarah’s anytime.
    Coolred has actually lived in Bahrain for many years, and she’s got brains…
    So she scores in two ways over some other people here.

  104. of course,the foreigner should know better than the people who are from there lol
    anyway the comments were to people who are looking form insights. I been have following the blog for a long time to know that there are readers and knowledge seekers and on the other hands people with so much time, so much ignorant and little understanding. People who look at the world more like the one who drew this map lol http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197533_10150117105434239_503959238_6233955_6387522_n.jpg

  105. @Saud
    You are more a foreigner than Coolread is when it comes to Bahrain.

    And actually, yes, sometimes foreigners DO know more about some aspects of a situation.

    For that matter- I actually live in Saudi and you do not. And most of your time living there you were a child not an adult. In fact, you have probably not had to interact as an adult in Saudi and would have no idea the realities it entails. The obstacles, the corruption etc.

    To be fair though- I do not discount everything you say. But there is a lot of variance about what Saudi’s think and do- and your views represent one strand of MANY, and those others are just as legitimate. You present it as though it is THE ONE.

  106. All, We are talking to a person here that has his logic missed up.

    Just today the Bahraini government allowed Saudi forces to enter the country (officially this time). Mean while Saud is arguing that the people of Bahrain are the ones who are traitors. I think his definition of traitors does not include being a traitor to your own country by using foreign troops to beat up your own people.

    The Bahraini government should be considered a traitor to its people based on Saud’s definition. It had relied on the following:

    – The Bahraini government hired a foreign British agent for 30 years to torture its people. The man was known as the Butcher of Bahrain. Ian Henderson was the head of the secrete police from early independence and for 30 years after
    – Hired resources from other countries by the thousands to work in its police forces
    – Now troops from Saudi Arabia to do the dirty work of stopping demonstrations.

    In Saud’s world everyone is a traitor, even the ones who live in another country, if they do not have allegiance to the Saudi government.

    The Bahraini government has very little legitimacy with its own people. Otherwise it would not have to rely on foreign troops from the day of its inception to rule the country. It is really simple logic, that Saud wants to divert from with his constant arguments.

    Note: Saud is using the machine gun approach to bring every issue on earth to avoid some of the simple questions I had about Saudi, For example:

    – How can he support a government that shoots at its own unarmed people?
    – If the Saudi government has such support from its people, why would it resort to taking on such high security measures to disallow demonstrations, send troops in all major cities, round up peaceful activists and throwing them in jail, etc.?
    – Why is Saudi not allowing foreign journalists to enter the country and cover the facts on the ground in an unbiased way?

    As always, people that do not have a valid argument, will start a new topic to avoid simple questions. Saud followed that model perfectly.

  107. foreign journalists could be biased too and take everything based on their values. However, I would like to see them on the ground but talking to all groups, not one.
    Going backhome to the Arabian gulf shore in 2 months and forever enchallah and actually ” do” things to my home and people, instead of talking while not even trying to be there.

  108. Also, its The Arab GCC troops, Saudi + Qatari +Emiratee under King Hamad command to reestablish security after the rioters attacked people on streets and university and closed king fisal road stopping others from going to work and attacking arabs houses .

  109. And yeah they the Saudi government did shoot people … in the virtual world of lies!! Holy god , the forces clearly shoot on the air but then in the virtual world it shoot on the people!!

    ———————————————————————————————————–

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  110. Foreign Journalists includes journalist from any country with different backgrounds. They certainly have less biased than a government or the people protesting against it. They also have less biased than you. If you have not noticed people here see through your biased.

    You still have not answered the question neither the other questions I posed. I want to hear your thoughts on those questions, not the official Saudi government position. If you continue avoiding the questions with specific, we will have to default that you really do not have a valid position as evident by you avoiding them. It is OK not to have a position, but your comments here have been strong in support of the Saudi government. An explanation of your logic will go a long way to explain why you have strong views.

    Regarding this statement:
    ” rioters attacked people on streets and university and closed king fisal road stopping others from going to work and attacking arabs houses .”

    What does the fact that the Bahraini government relying on foreign troops tell you about its legitimacy with the citizens of the country (note Shiiats are the majority in Barain)?

  111. “And yeah they the Saudi government did shoot people … in the virtual world of lies!! Holy god , the forces clearly shoot on the air but then in the virtual world it shoot on the people!!”

    That statement could be substantiated, if the Saudi government allows foreign journalist in. Why don’t they?

  112. Saud, I have yet to see any straight answer of you to any straight question.
    It seems to me your brain is very muddled, stuffed full with propaganda and unfounded judgmental attitudes against those who hold a different perspective than yours.
    Your avoidance of giving a straight answer, and instead polluting the blog with endless fallacies, state propaganda and personal attacks shows clearly enough you know you don’t have an argument.

    What I don’t understand is why people cannot just stand up for their own convictions.

    So lets take the first of Moq’s questions put to you, How can you support a government which shoots it’s own people.
    Why can’t you answer that in a straight way?
    If you support these actions why don’t you just stand for it and and say out loud you think it’s a good idea to shoot unarmed citizens if they stage peaceful protests.

    And if you don’t then why don’t you admit that these Arab government are bastards for doing so?

  113. It seems ALL Arab govts have no problem shooting its own unarmed citizens. So much for “Islamic” countries. Funny enough not even one so called Islamic country has equality, rights for all…or any semblence of freedom.

    What exactly are we arguing about here….every Arab country has experienced unrest this past few months has shot at its own people…shot and killed…why are more of the Arab people not up in arms (political arms not guns as they dont have any) about the fact that their own govts are so trigger happy over the smallest of protests?

    Saud…I lived in Bahrain 23 years….only returned to the states a year ago. I lived through a lot and experienced more than apparently you have…and no I did not live a cushy expat life but was right there among the locals. And now I have 2 kids there and many friends that are telling me exactly what is going on…and guess what…they are all Sunnis but cant believe what their own country is doing.

    Apparently not ALL Sunnis are pro-govt…just the ones that benefit from being so I would guess.

  114. “At least they aren’t planting car bombs or wearing suicide vests to the police stations ”

    Are you kidding? What about the bombs they throw at police and even kill them – not now but in “peaceful days”. Have you seen or read about these killings? How many home-made bombs did they throw at police patrolling in the night? You don’t know what is going on in reality.

    Aafke – ” I’d take coolred’s evaluation of the situation in Bahrain above Saud’s and Sarah’s anytime”

    Bahrain is my country, I live it, I have felt and am feeling the pain of my country. I have lived the similar times years ago as a school student when we had to run out of the school building and hide house to house to escape the attacks of the so-called “peaceful people”.

    You can take whose opinion you like but thats up to you.

    It is not a fair judgement to say who has brains and who doesn’t. As far as I can tell we are all intelligent enough and we have to see things without bias and be fair. I has shia friends and they are some of the coolest people I know. We had them as neighbors. I have sunni friends in the same way. Not all are same. Its just a political game and it has always been that since this division started.

    These rioters are not asking for reforms, yes that is how it started but the same old battles of taking control is what it is now. Of course there are many groups of protesters. Some are a mixed group asking for jobs and housing.

  115. Unarmed? They are wielding knives, they have bombs. What unarmed? They have already killed people on the street and you expect the gov to watch twidling their thumbs and not defend the country? Call in GCC forces. So what? Whats that got to do? Why do US army join foreign troops?

  116. GCC forces are not foreign to us. We are one bond and members of GCC protect each other. It is nothing more the united stand that is decided upon by the members.

    Peninsula Shield forces are here and hopefully peace will be once more reign in this island.

  117. Sarah…the protesters were not armed and were only holding peaceful protests and the govt still shot at them with live ammo. Did you watch any of the videos of Pearl Roundabout attack?

    King Hamad did not even have a moment of patience with the protestors…he quickly pulled out the big guns as has every Arab leader out there.

    As far as having “one bond”…I distinctly remember when Iraq was invading Kuwait…that bond certainly took awhile to kick in. How long was it before any Arab troops were mustered up and ready to go defend them…hell…even when Saddam was killing his own people with chemicals etc…where was the bond then?

    The only bond Arab countries have are the leaders so desperate to hold on to their seats of power that they will quickly kill their own people…or set them against each other…in order to do that.

    Islam dies with the people…never reaches the leaders apparently.

  118. Coolred,
    Maybe some protestors are not armed but certainly some are. I have eye witnesses. My own people trapped in universitiy library when the people with knives and sticks started haressing and threatening the students. Some of these protestors were students themselves.

    The King did of course bend to their demands in the beginning of this chaos and was patient enough but how long can he keep on going while they destroy the economy. People cannot go to work, students cannot go to school, business cannot operate ..etc and all this while they vandalize the country. Of course they will put up videos showing how “unarmed” they are. Pls do not make judgement looking at videos on youtube. Live it, experience it, be in the midst.

    I am not going into the history of bonds with Iraq as this is not about that. I cannot judge sitting here what went on in Iraq and how long it took for the troops to join the allies. There were many things invoved there at that time.

    As long as Islam does die with the people, that is their success. Others will be judged according to what they do.

  119. He barely waited 3 days…if even that. Was 3 days enough to bring down the economy?

    Anyhow, your right to believe as you wish.

  120. BTW Iraq is not GCC even though GCC did join the allies. But the arrival of Peninsula Shield was at the request of Bahrain and also part of the defence agreement between the GCC members.

    3 days, 4 …no matter but as far as I know days were spent just telling the rioters to calm down and to have a dialog while prisoners were being released and exiles flying back in.

  121. The “rioters” were calm..and were not rioting until after being shot at…and the prisoners were not released until the second week etc…but a govt willing to shoot and kill its own people…there are easier and less fatal ways to get people to disperse….why always shoot first.

  122. @Sarah,

    So why there were political prisoners and exiles?

    Why did Bahrain hire a foreign mercenary and his goons to torture its people?

    Do you understand that the prime minister who has been in his position for 49 years cannot stay in his position, if the government wants to build trust with its people. The King should retire his uncle as a first step to establish good well. The man presided over a system of torture for a long time. As long as he is in charge the government actions will be viewed as more oppression.

  123. MANAMA: Bahrain declared martial law on Tuesday, a day after Saudi forces arrived in the Sunni-ruled kingdom to help restore calm following the weeks of protests by the island’s Shia Muslim majority
    (Reuters/March 15)

    Bahrain TV said that the king “authorised the commander of Bahrain’s defence forces to take all necessary measures to protect the safety of the country and its citizens.”

    The royal order was due to came into force on Tuesday and would apply to all parts of the Gulf state, a regional oil and banking hub, with the country’s security forces taking charge for the next three months, television said.

    It was not clear if a curfew would be imposed or whether there would be any clampdown on media or public gathering.

  124. Prisoners were there because of abuse of laws of the country. Anyone who commits a crime regardless of his beliefs or nationalit,y should be punished. Law and order is there for a purpose. And it is same in any country.

    People who threaten the stability of the country and sabotage should face the consequences according to the law of the land.

    Coolred,
    “The “rioters” were calm..and were not rioting until after being shot at”
    Really? Coolred, you just have to see what is going on. Do you agree when they drag out patients from the hospitals and beat them up severely and leave them to die – a good moral act? Beating students and demanding them to leave – is that a good thing? Vandaliasm, random killings, stealing, road blocks to offices, schools, petrol stations, going house to house and harressing the occupants are all okay? And the law is not supposd to do anything about it? Tell me, are the forces to remain silent? The law is there to protect the country and the citizens so would it be alright for them to sit idle and watch as things get out of control? Is that the wise thing to do? What would USA have done in auch a case? Sit and watch? Did not the army speed out to Afghanistan? Oh that was ok?Are they still not there?

    I am not saying the the gov is perfect. They have many things to fix. But I am defending the right to defend. Police are shooting the rioters with machine guns neither are they intending to kill anyone. They are firing in the air, using tear gas, and water to disperse the thugs. The GCC forces are here not to kill, but to maintain peace.

    My doctor friend at SMC (main hospital) who is a shia herself says these people are not even Bahraini shias, they are external thugs posing as local shias, their accent is different, use of words different, even their looks. That reminds me of your comment earlier of those ads in Pakistan papers of the gov hiring thugs; those are of course fake ads. Hmm…

  125. Coolred, “why always shoot first”
    That is the policy of US, not here. Shoot first, then ask questions. Just as they did with Iraq.

  126. The situation in Bahrain is getting worse. I got this message from a Bahraini student who attended college last year in Saudi. She is very sweet, hardworking, and never known to carry sticks or knives.

    She was calling for help!

    The pictures are too graphic to share, but here is her message:

    ” Hi Everybody,

    I am Bahraini, and I was one of KAUST students.

    We are bleeding in Bahrain, the people here are peaceful, and the Bahraini’s and Saudi’s police and militray are killing us.

    The bahraini families doesn’t have even guns, and the police are killing us
    with guns, what shall we do?? Who can help us??

    Our families are killed, Help us at least with a peaceful rally to
    reject sending armys to Bahrain, ask your family in your countries to reject
    that also.

    Where are the UN, Human rights … ????

    Attached is one of their crimes today. His name is Ahmed Farhan Al-Farhan, 30 years old from Sitra Village (sorry for the pictures).

    We are BLEEDING, HELP us please, It’s a humanity case. They are attacking the hospitals also…”

  127. Harry, thanks for posting that link again. It’s really interesting to read about the situation ”from the ground” so to speak.
    It’s nasty over there. These governments see people as servs. And hold lives cheap.

  128. Now the riot police are taking real action against the protestors and they are brutal. It is very sad that it has reached this level. Innocent people have died. I just wish they had taken the opportunity for dialog.

  129. I agree, it’s such a pity these governments choose violence above dialogue.

    But then what else can one expect from a government which has habitually tortured it’s own citizens for more than 30 years if they disagreed…

  130. The rightful demands of the protestors on Feb 14 has turned ugly and became the revival of the old shia-sunni thing. The thugs have pushed aside the legitimate peaceful protests and turned it into a bloodbath for their own agenda. So they have asked for it and now they have to face it.

  131. Sarah, you may not be aware of how demonstrations happen in the civilized parts of the world; any civilized government would let them protest without resorting to violence. They would have been organized, the police would be around to protect them and insure an orderly demonstration. That is how a legitimate, civilized government deals with protest marches.

    This government chooses violent suppression, kill rather than listen. What does this say about the Bahraini government?

  132. Sarah…these “Shiia thugs” as you call them, have been videoed and photographed standing right in the company of police…while holding weapons. I would imagine if they were actually Shiia they would have been shot at…not tolerated to hold weapons. The hosps have treated these same men and found police ID’s on them.

    There are freakin hundreds of videos showing what is going on…BTV claims it is “youth” rampaging…yet every video I see they are grown men with big sticks and swords…walking right along with the police…or standing with the police and watching…and then attacking people.

    There are videos showing police shooting directly into the bodies of people…NOT into the air as you said. People will not get full of bird shot or have their heads blown open by bullets falling from the sky. How incredibly naive is that.

    And the very worst thing of all of this mess are the Sunnis gloating over this massacre. I hear them everywhere…the Shiias deserve what they get…meaning they deserve death Im assuming.

    Until when the Sunnis of Bahrain will realize this very hard truth. If YOUR king can shoot and kill Shiias who are Bahrainis…who are HIS people…he can damn well shoot at YOU…Sunnis.

    Today Shiias…tomorrow Sunnis. When you use your own police force and military to kill your own people…you have no high ground to stand on.

  133. Aafke – You are not in Bahrain so you cannot know. You are basing on what you see on youtube and other media. As one Bahrain eye-witness said the whole world is ” victim of propaganda! They have highjacked the media. You see only one side. Did you see any videos of what these thugs are doing to the innocent Indians and Pakistanis? Did you sse them drag Pak patient from SMC and beat him and left him to die? Did you see them at UoB? And did you see them run over 2 policemen while speeding in a car to kill them on the spot?

    Aafke, there are numerous protests usually after Friday prayers when people want something done. These are peaceful and planned and done with. No one hears about these. I bet you have never seen them on videos. These happen all the time.

    This current protest started by Shias and Sunnis peacefully but this group was taken over by these violent shia group that was always there for years. They used to regularly torch police cars and kill policemen. So its this group that got out of hand now.

    Coolred,
    Its been more than one month, the gov did not use weapons. We people here in the midst see it. Riot police have only shields and tear gas. The gov called for a dialog and did release prisoners …etc But the thugs went on demanding and highjacked commerce, trade …etc occupied certain areas. It reached a point where the police have to take action. Tell me coolred, if you are the gov would you not defend the land and the citizen? You are agreeing to the violence from the thugs then I wonder …..?

    The gov is willing to listen to any grievcances but not at the expense of destruction of the land. How can you have a talk when these goons are not ready to talk but only want to destroy? Can’t you see whats going on?

  134. Sarah will continue to take the side of oppression and explain it away with “the US does it in Afghanistan”, so it must be OK for armies to beat up on civilians. Here are the simple facts of Bahrain:

    – Bahrain was under British protection until 1971, when it gained its independence
    – Bahrain had political movements and labor unions prior to the British leaving. All worked against the British administration
    – When the country gained independence the British handed power to an Amir from a minority Sunni group (Shiiat are 65% or the population using the lowest estimates)
    – From the start, the independent government of Bahrain worked to destroy democracy. The constitution was suspended and state of emergency was enacted in the 3rd year of independence. A police run state emerged with a known foreign (British) mercenary as its head of security. This British agent ran the security forces for almost 30 years. A state known for its torture tactics was put in place. The police and military forces of the country have always relied on foreign hired guns since the population was never trusted for security as they opposed the system of government. To put it simply the government did not have legitimacy and opted to enforce its presence on the population using foreigners.
    – The Prime Minister (the brother of the previous King and uncle of the current King) was and is still is in place. The prime minister is responsible for managing the day today affairs of the state and is the person responsible for the police actions and torture. After 49 years in position (the longest serving Prime minister in the world), the King would not replace his uncle with a more acceptable prime minister.
    – In 2002 the country went through elections, which opposition groups did not participate in. The reason is the King reserved the powers to appoint the members of the upper chambers of parliament. Hence, nullifying the powers of the representatives of the people.
    – In 2006 another election was held and although the opposition won 16 of 17 contested seats. They still only hold 40% of the parliamentary seats. Reason is the King appoints the rest to nullify the results of any elections.
    – Sarah makes a lot of hay about Shiiat, but the fact is the country is primarily a shiiat population. She forgets that the government fuels this segregation by its policies. This includes appointments of Sunnis disproportionately as members of the parliament and cabinet. Having a policy of naturalizing Sunnis to change the demographics of the country’s population, etc.
    – Now the government is brining in foreign troops from Saudi Arabia, which is known for its policies against Shiiat. This is a bad sign as it will further increase sectarian tensions.

    Yes, unfortunately the country has a sectarian divide, but this is a result of a 50 year policy by the government. The Bahraini people have legitimate demands and they can simply be met by any government who wants to be fair:

    – Dissolve the current cabinet, which is run by a prime minister who presided over the state of torture. The king can easily ask his 75 year old uncle to retire as a good well gesture.
    – Change the constitution to allow better representation of the people to occur. Specifically, eliminate the part which allows the King to appoint members.
    – Eliminate the sectarian naturalization policies
    – Give the parliament elected by the people power in the selection of the executive running the country

    With 50 years, since independence the King has not moved to provide answers to these simple demands. Instead, he asked foreign troops to protect his frail system. The ruling family of Bahrain, simply does not have legitimacy with its people. Instead it is relying on foreign troops, meeting its people with guns and marshal law, and increasing the sectarian divide.

  135. Sarah…I am not agreeing to the violence from the thugs..as you said…Im merely pointing out that those thugs are not who you..and the media..and the govt would like to claim they are. They are hired goons meant to cause chaos and suspicion. In other words…to fan the flames of sectarian divide.

    Videos of the UOB show grown men attacking that university…meanwhile BTV claimed it was “youths”…always this word…youths. For 23 years I was in Bahrain no matter how old the man or men were that committed a crime..he or they were always referred to as “youths”. I asked many people why this word was used considering it is strictly meant to designate a very young teen…and the most common answer…the govt wants to portray the criminals as hot headed young men who cant be controlled. Now..we have “youths” attacking UOB…we have “youths” protesting and causing destruction around bahrain…we have “youths” attacking people etc etc…always youths…and yet all the videos and pics I see show mostly grown men.

    i can see what’s going on…can you?

  136. Sarah…do you see any weapons on these men? Anything really noticable that would require the police to shoot point blank at them like this? The protestors are still far away even so warning shots would have been the obvious thing to do…right????

  137. Bahrain crackdown routs protesters; clashes kill 5

    Soldiers and riot police expelled hundreds of protesters from a landmark square in Bahrain’s capital on Wednesday, using tear gas and armored vehicles to try to subdue the growing movement challenging the 200-year-old monarchy. At least five people were killed as clashes flared across the kingdom, according to witnesses and officials.

    By BARBARA SURK and REEM KHALIFA
    Associated Press

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2014506885_apmlbahrainprotests.html

  138. I”ve been watching live coverage on Al Jazeera- wow. Ahmaddinajad looks like the sane one. That takes some doing. (I know he isn’t- so no need to convince me)

    Shame- shame on shooting civilians. And shame for keeping so many disenfranchised for so long.

  139. Coolred
    “They are hired goons meant to cause chaos and suspicion. In other words…to fan the flames of sectarian divide.”

    Yes I agree with you there. This has always been the policy – divide and conquer.

    UoB protestors were mostly students of the university and so “youths” 🙂

    BTW, those tear gas? They are made in USA. Irony. Cannisters of tear gas were collected by the protestors and displayed with a note “Thank you, USA”.

    Coolred, that video you posteed, I did not see any polic shooting. All I saw was some grown men lying on the road and only some sounds. The camera person went out of focus and then went back to those men on the road. There are plenty of these kind of dramatic videos. They are just dramas. And this particular “event” happened well before things got very serious.

    FYI, I am not pro or anti anything or anyone. I just want fair play. I respect those people demonstrated their rights peacefully. But these thugs are a different breed. I suffered under the hands of the gov – big time. I know its not a perfect system and needs a lot of changes. The way is deal with it is not violence.

    But what would you have done? Would you just shrugged and admitted defeat or defended the country and citizens?

  140. Sarah…” They are just dramas”…really?!! JUST dramas!! I think the word you were looking for is “horrifying”. This video is from last week so hardly “old” but even if it was last month…it still shows what the govt in Bahrain is willing to do…and maybe you need to look closer to see the police in the back ground…not to mention there are other videos showing them clearly…no need to squint.

    BTW…the King is NOT defending the country ot its citizens…considering he is killing those same citizens…he is defending his crown and throne. Period. As are ALL Arab leaders right about now. When you need to ask other countries to come in and help you against your own people…then obviously your period of rule is nearly at an end…this calls for desperate measures…as we have seen again and again in EVERY single Arab country out there. These so called muslims apparently dont believe in t he afterlife…since they are clinging so damn hard to what they have in THIS life…even it requires copious amounts of the blood of their own people.

  141. No I mean drama and there are many of those., especially in from of foreign camera men.

    Coolred, these thugs are not loyal to the country; if you have lived in Bah for 23 years you should know that. Their interest lies elsewhere, they take orders from elsewhere. So if these peope love the country so much, why are they destroying it? Aren’t “your own people” supposed to be “with” you? Are they your own people when they have different agendas, different plans and interests?

    What is the big deal of Peninsula Shield? it is part of GCC defense agreement.

    “These so called muslims apparently dont believe in t he afterlife…since they are clinging so damn hard to what they have in THIS life” – True but not necessarily not believe but forgotten.

  142. Correction:

    “especially in front of foreign camera men”

  143. @Sarah,

    So far all what we heard from you is defense of the government. Not even one of your comments showed concern that at minimum 6 people died at the hands of the police (confirmed even by government reports) and hundreds of injured.

    However, you are not shy about describing all the activities of the demonstrators as violent. Even the attack of the police on the sleeping families on pearl square does not move you to describe it as an act of violence. The videos of people shot and in hospitals are unequivocal evidence of the government brutality. Your defense of that is all of the weapons were made somewhere else. Not even a concern about people dieing.

    In your world the people of Bahrain are really 2 groups, 1) supporting the government and 2) thugs who oppose the government and need to be shot. I know you will reply that we are misunderstanding your position, but Sarah you wrote so many comments here and not once have blamed the government for anything going on. The blood, people in hospitals, dead bodies, foreign troops, the 50 years of oppression, the torture at the hand of police etc. are all justified easily as the shiiat working for Iran deserve this treatment.

    At one point you need to reevaluate your position and see if your conscious can guide you to a recognition of the Human tragedy happening in Bahrain.

  144. Sarah, which foreign cameramen shot that video Coolred posted?

  145. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/16/bahrain.protests/index.html

    ‘Cell phone networks in several areas were disrupted. Security forces blocked highways leading to the capital, and formed a ring around the country’s main hospital, Salmaniya Medical Complex — not letting people enter or leave, witnesses said.

    Security forces then stormed the hospital and beat staffers, several doctors there said.

    Doctors have been hiding in rooms, said Yousif Sharaf, a doctor at the hospital.

    “We are trapped,” said Sharaf. “We are asking for the security forces to please stay outside the hospital. They are beating the staff.”

    Fatima Haji, another doctor, also said she was trapped in the hospital.

    “We are in a small group hiding,” said Haji, her voice rising with emotion. “This is a government hospital. How can this happen in a government hospital?”

    Haji said two people had died in the hospital Wednesday morning and she feared for the other patients there because the doctors were not able to work.’

  146. Lynn, duuhh, that was an American Jewish Zionist Reptilian of course!

  147. Aafke, that was who I thought it was but I didn’t want to go presuming things! LOL

  148. They’re everywhere…
    The truth is out there…
    Don’t look back…

  149. LOL 🙂

  150. Violent response to Bahrain protest

    [This video contains images that some viewers may find disturbing]

  151. Another video I saw in the news today of police shooting an unarmed protester at point blank range.

    Although I’m sure for some commentators here this is just another thug playing up some sort of drama for the cameras

  152. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110316/pl_afp/bahrainunrestussaudiobama_20110316194024

    Obama to Saudi and Bahraini Kings. Don’t MAKE me pull over!!!

  153. MoQ
    I did say that I am not pro or anti anything or anyone. I did say that I myself suffered under the hands of the gov. I have been bribed without my knowledge; I have been made penniless, I have been made to separate from my family – yes I suffered big time; but with my comments I am NOT talking about the gov, I am talking about the right to defend the land by the leaders of the land. That is what most leaders of any country would do,. Yes I do say that protestors do act out in front of cameras.

    Someone asked in front of which foreign cameraman concerning the video posted by coolred. I did not say that particular video but there are plenty you can see on news channels.

    So far I have not seen anyone condemn the innocent people that these thugs have killed. Do you say it is okay for these thugs to drag out south asian workers from the abulance onto the street; is it okay for them to throw petrol bombs at innocent people? Or to halt the economy of the tiny country with illegal road blocks and harress the people? Is it okay to drive over the people killing them instantly? Yes it is all ok because the regime is oppressive.

    ” Even the attack of the police on the sleeping families on pearl square does not move you to describe it as an act of violence”

    Were they not responsbile enough that they stop their own children from going to school and instead allow their family to be in harm’s way. Did they not get plenty of warnings? Who asked them to bring their kids and wives and sisters and even their aged parents in wheel chairs to sit there having a picnic? Did they not learn from experience? Or is that just another of their pity-pulling tactics? Or a human shield?

    I agree the crackdown yesterday was mismatched. Thugs with knives, petol bombs, shears and other weapons with no shields against forces in army trucks, shields and tear gases. It was not a fair battle.

    Again I say, I respect the peaceful protestors; I am one of them demanding changes. I am all for that. But these thugs are a different breed with different agenda. They take orders from elsewhere. People who lived here for a very long time or are living here can recognise them easily. They know them and their style of “demanding changes”.

  154. But Sarah, are there videos somewhere to prove your allegations against these ‘thugs’ with knives and petrol bombs?

  155. Yes, Lynn, there are videos of thugs beating up nurses, attacking the universtiy, destroying police cars, beating police men and driving over them.

    We had a peaceful demonstration demanding our rights and these thugs stole our thunder.

  156. Yes, Lynn, there are videos of thugs beating up nurses, attacking the universtiy, destroying police cars, beating police men and driving over them.

    So Sarah, what is holding you back from posting those videos?

  157. Yes, the video about the docs and nurses being attacked by ‘thugs’ HAS been posted and the ‘thugs’ were the govt forces NOT the protesters. Is that what you were talking about, Sarah?

  158. @Sarah,

    As expected, no amount of violence from the authorities moves you. In response of people killed you quickly started blaming the victims who were sleeping and I quote:

    “Were they not responsbile enough that they stop their own children from going to school and instead allow their family to be in harm’s way. Did they not get plenty of warnings? Who asked them to bring their kids and wives and sisters and even their aged parents in wheel chairs to sit there having a picnic? Did they not learn from experience? Or is that just another of their pity-pulling tactics? Or a human shield?”

    Here is the deal Sarah, these were families sleeping in tents and peaceful. They also have the right to protest peacefully. You can make the Human shield argument only in the case if they were firing at the police behind their family. The fact of the matter, it was families protesting. They had no arms, just exercising their rights as citizens to protest and to hold visible grounds to let the world know about their demands for rights.

    No matter how you look at it, they are still attacked by armed police and shot at. In your efforts to justify the government actions to yourself, you have conveniently forgot some basic moral principles. Such as shooting and killing unarmed people is a highly immoral act. Burning tents on families is an immoral act. etc.

    Just so you know the difference of how civilized governments deal with protests. I am including a video of an anti war protest in the US. Note: the protesters were allowed to have their say. They were blocking the road so they had to be removed. No one was shot at. Contrast that with the brutal assault of the Bahraini government on Pearl Square:

    Again, I hope you start thinking like a moral human being, who condemns the killing at the hand of police. So far all what you have shown is a passion to defend the government actions. No feelings for people getting shot and killed and some how we are supposed to think you are concerned for your follow citizens?

    At the end of the day, I have not seen anything in your comments that indicate, you even think these people are humans and have rights as citizens.

    Morals, Morals, Morals, Learn some basics about them!!!!

  159. Sarah….I spent 23 years in Bahrain and I can say with utmost conviction that bahrain…hell Arabs…have very little compassion for Asians of any kind. Now suddenly I have heard the phrase “those poor Asians…” from Arabs that have never uttered the words “poor Asians” in their lives Im guessing.

    This is the height of hypocrisy now to hold Asians up as some sort of banner as proof that the protestors did “this”…and it has been shown that it was not the protestors but govt hired goons.

    Read any Arab newspaper in any Arab country and you will see how “poor Asians” are treated on a daily basis…no need for govt crackdown or protesting mobs.

    i do not condone violence of any kind from any side…but I want to seriously break something everytime I now hear an Arab say…”those poor Asians”…in regards to this event going on.

  160. I have a rubber bullet that my parents brought back from Belfast. I don’t know if they have changed the way rubber bullets are made since the 70’s but I couldn’t imagine that man could have lived if he’d been hit in the head by one anything like the one I have. They are big and they are heavy!

  161. Lynn..I was told he later died.

  162. Sorry, Lynn, I was in a hurry and I forgot the link.

    Here is one, hope it comes ok:

  163. Here is another one:

  164. The civil war in Bahrain is taking new twists and turns:

    With the introduction of saudi troops into Bahrain, many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC, with saudi arabia as the head honcho in charge and as the new “soviet union” of the gulf.

    Also, Bahrain is now recruiting mercenaries overseas, especially in pakistan. See link below:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  165. The civil war in Bahrain is taking new twists and turns:

    With the introduction of saudi troops into Bahrain, many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC, with saudi arabia as the head honcho in charge and as the new “soviet union” of the gulf.

    Also, Bahrain is now recruiting mercenaries overseas, especially in pakistan. See link below:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  166. Or this is the best one …

    Ya Bahrain – we are one!

  167. Many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC with saudi arabia as the new and improved soviet union.

    According to media reports, Bahrain is recruiting mercenaries in south asia to quell the growing unrest. See the link below to a pakistani newspaper:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  168. Very odd that the last one would be a song in English? Who is this song trying to convince? Us or the Bahrainis?

    The other ones? They didn’t really show me anything. Could you point out a specific part of the video that proves something? Could you actually see any weapons being distributed from that ambulance or did you just hear someone saying that that was what was going on? And that car that was surrounded by (unarmed) police. How did it come to be in the position that it was? Why would police go to a protest or ‘riot’ without being armed? And didn’t I see a plume of teargas being shot? Can you point out which segment of any of those videos that showed a protester with a weapon?

  169. Many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC with saudi arabia as the new and improved soviet union.

    According to media reports, Bahrain is recruiting mercenaries in south asia to quell the growing unrest. See the link below to a pakistani newspaper:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  170. “I have told friends that I think that on Monday (the day that Saudi forces were invited back in), Bahrain ceased to exist.”

    Yes, many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC with saudi arabia as the new and improved soviet union.

    “The villages have been the scenes of a lot of violence in the last few days and there are reports that non-Bahraini Arabs in civilian dress have been attacking the villages. There are allegations of government ids and paperwork being found on people involved in these attacks.”

    According to media reports, Bahrain is recruiting mercenaries in south asia to quell the growing unrest. See the link below to a pakistani newspaper:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  171. Rocks against Guns, Yes Sarah you made your point. All these kids had are Rocks and sticks to fight with the police who are attacking civilians with guns, batons, tear gas and foreign troops.

    Seems very reasonable to be sympathetic to the system of torture and political jails!!!

  172. Saudi just can’t do ‘rage’ right! Or not as good as Egyptians or Tunisians at it. The Bahrainis seem to do better at it, but their rage (moderate at that) is being put down by a brutal government with the backing of another government that cares little for human rights. Sad.

    Just let me say that I am very disappointed with events so far. I had high hopes (well, kind of) that the “Arab Spring” would bring change across North Africa and beyond. So far it had done little and in Bahrain is showing the true colors of Arab leaders, who will do almost anything to stay in power. Was is it that life is so cheap in the Muslims world?

    As to Libya, the world has finally taken a decision to impose a “no-fly” zone and so immediately the mad man declares a truce. Are the Western nations going to fall for this? Are they that stupid? Can’t they figure out what will happen if Gadaffi and sons stay in control? The truce is just a ploy for Gadaffi to gain time and reorganize his troops.

  173. Lynn, the US style of songs or lyrics are all the rage here. It attracts attention especially the youths. It is not all in English, there is Arabic also. Besides isn’t it much better than viloence? Its an attempt to bring people together.

    One of the other videos was from the state TV from the news.

    Chk this one:

  174. Youths of course have weapons. Well the biased news will not cover these. They don’t tell you about how these thugs go into the houses of people in the dead of night and attack the innocent people but instead they will talk all the time about how police raided the sleepers who torched their own tents and blew the gas cannisters.

    Well, I tell what I see and what my people experience, you all can base your opinion on your news chsannels. Cheers.

  175. Sarah….why are the protestors referred to as thugs by you and every other Sunni out there..yet your own govt forces doing the exact same thing (going into peoples houses in the dead of night, burning things, destroying things, attacking people etc etc) are not?

    Is your definition of thug restricted to “those people”?

  176. The thugs I am referring to are the not shias who protested peacefully with the sunnis. There are plenty of peaceful shites.

    I am referring to the ones who take external orders, who are not loyal to Bahrain (I am not talking about gov but love the country Bahrain and want to improve it for the people sincerely) and who want the destruction of the stability. Those who kill innocent people just for the sake of killing.

    The police did not use live ammunitions nor other weapons against the protestors in the beginning even though the media made it look like this. This is why they were able to attack the police and even kill them and destroy their vehicles. The police only started their defence when things got out of control and as I said from the beginning, the country, any country, has a right to defend itself and that is why it has a force.

    Coolred, at 911 event, didn’t USA rush to attack Afghanistan? And attack the people there. Are they still not killing people? Should we say that these are barbaric acts. Why are they using mighty weapons against cheap ones? This is a strategy to defend one’s country although US went went beyond their borders to do the same.

  177. Sarah…the Bahrain govt barely waited 3 days, if even that, before attacking the people with live ammunition. What the hell is with Sunnis declaring the media just makes up shit. So everything is a lie that depicts your beloved govt in a negative way? We dont need the media to distort anything when the people who aer right there are busy taking pics and videos showing exactly what the police etc are doing.

    And yes…what America is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is barbaric….killing is barbaric. Period. But right now we are talking about Bahrain and the killing it is doing.

  178. Yes, many are predicting the “balkanization” of GCC with saudi arabia as the new and improved soviet union.

    According to media reports, Bahrain is recruiting mercenaries in south asia to quell the growing unrest. See the link below to a pakistani newspaper:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain
    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  179. The ‘thugs’ burned an unoccupied police car? Dang but they are vicious!! Where are the officers?

    I can honestly say that I have not really heard anything at all about Bahrain in the news. A little bit about Libya perhaps but the stupid news stations are all so concerned about the Japanese and their problems! What the hell do they that have to do with the war against Islam?! Stupid news people!

  180. Note Sarah does not answer to any of the questions relating of the government of 50 years of oppression, discrimination, torture and revoking of civil rights and liberties. She wants to paint this as a conflict that started from no where just a few weeks ago. She also wants everyone to ignore the fact that the government has the guns and the protesters have only rocks and sticks. The shooting of people does not bother her. All what she is doing her is acting like a propagandist posting every anti protesters video from youtube to clog the blog. She thinks the volume of her propaganda videos will eliminate the real pictures and videos by independent news organization.

    Through all of this she says words like I am for the peaceful protesters, while she never condemned any of the violence against the families sleeping in Pearl Square.

    Sarah, we can see through your bad arguments. You have not answered simple questions about the brutal government of Bahrain, which has no legitimacy with its people and always relied on foreign elements to hold to power.

  181. Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain

    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  182. According to media reports, Bahrain is recruiting mercenaries in south asia to quell the growing unrest. See the link below to a pakistani newspaper:

    Recruitment of Bahrain National Guards in Lahore to kill Shia protesters in Bahrain

    http://criticalppp.com/archives/42628

  183. Did you guys hear what King Abdullah decreed today?
    Another money giveaway..Where has all this money been sitting??

    Among one of the decrees was that religious scholars cannot be touched and that those who make fun of them etc will be punished!
    The CPVPV aka Haia gets 200 million more!
    I cant believe this!
    also money for fatwa centres, Quran memorizing centers and mosques, hundreds of millions!

    Nothing for schools and improving quality of education. How about the youth that has nothing else to do but drive around and cause trouble? How about creating some sports facilities for them?
    How about public parks, or fixing the roads?
    What about fighting poverty?
    I am shocked how much money was given to projects so insignificant compared to others. Its very sad that the King listened to his advisors and went along with this 😦

    Its as if the whole thing was to suck up to police, military and especially the religious leaders.

  184. well, yeah it sounded like he was paying ‘protection money’ to have supporters for the protests that are inevitable. That’s a damned shame!

  185. @Laylah,

    There are 3 major problems with the Saudi King:

    – He is too old and uneducated. Things relating to governing a modern country just go over his head, due to incompetence. Even when he means well (not the case here by the way, as he is just trying to protect the throne), he cannot make the right decisions.

    – The Saudi government is playing the Shiiat card. They are trying to paint the online protests as lead by Shiiat loyal to Iran. The best way to succeed at that strategy is to use the clerics who have been tried and true in creating the sectarian divide.

    – Religion has always been a tool for the king and his government. As you know in Wahhabbi Islam, obeying the leader is a requirement. The more he can turn people to religion the more they will obey him. So the religious groups get more control and more money to issue more fatwas and make protests Islamicaly prohibited.

  186. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110318/wl_mideast_afp/saudipoliticsunrestking_20110318173100

    ‘The monarch also ordered a minimum monthly wage of 3,000 riyals ($800) for civil servants and introduced monthly unemployment benefits of 2,000 riyals for job-seekers. Payments will start after about eight months.’

    The same article says that the kingdom has over $450 Billion in assets yet they have to wait EIGHT months to start giving out this great ‘gift’ meant to quiet the masses?

    They say the Shiites in the Eastern Province have been protesting ‘as support for their brother’s in Bahrain’. So they really don’t have any more problems with KSA so they call of their own protests and now they just want to show support for their neighbors? LOL

  187. @Harry – you have posted the same thing no less than 5 times now. I am sure our fellow commentators got it the first couple times.

  188. MoQ
    First of all I made it very clear that I am not talking about the gov. My agrument here is only about defending. I have repeated this many times but you insist that I talk about the gov. And I made it very clear what I experience with the gov.

    “She wants to paint this as a conflict that started from no where just a few weeks ago”
    I make it clear once more to you that I have said that this problem is not a recent one and it has been an on-going issue with regular attacks in villages on police patrolling there. You must have heard about how they threw petrol bomb on a young police man of only 24 years who has been on the force for 3 years and burnt him to death. You must have heard about the Bahraini man whose car exploded and he was killed on the spot. He was carrying a home-made bomb in his car, driving to his friend’s place. And numerous other stories of such nature. No where did I say that this was something that happened out of the blue. I also did say that I lived through it many times – been trapped in tear gas chaos, hiding house to house …etc.

    “She also wants everyone to ignore the fact that the government has the guns and the protesters have only rocks and sticks”
    I did say that it was an unfair battle where protestor had stones, sticks and petrol bombs and no shield while the police had guns and armoured vehicles and shields. Perhaps you need to read more than make accusing comments.

    “The shooting of people does not bother her”
    Lol, it bothers me just as it bothers me the killing of innocent people on both sides. Its not about sides, its about life.

    ” All what she is doing her is acting like a propagandist posting every anti protesters video from youtube to clog the blog. She thinks the volume of her propaganda videos will eliminate the real pictures and videos by independent news organization”

    I never post videos if you have noticed. I only did it this time because I was asked to provide videos. So only I clog the blog while others don’t. I can see the clear double standard here. Independent biased news you mean. Lol. No shortage of those.

    “while she never condemned any of the violence against the families sleeping in Pearl Square”
    I have not seen you condemn the thugs killing innocent people in worse ways – because you have not heard about it from your regular news sources. I already mentioned my opinion abt that. I can only talk about things I am sure about not from heresy or biased news reports. The raid did not happen as you heard it. My friend lives just next to the Pearl Roundabout. Her view from the window on normal days is the lovely seafront. Well on that day it was the battlefield. So I get real news not your regular one-sided one. I have already talked bout it.

    ” You have not answered simple questions about the brutal government of Bahrain”
    As I said my comments are not about the gov so why do you insist I talk on it? Hmmm?

    By the way, you said that you only talk on subject you are familiar with. You broke your own policy?

    Lynn, I did see on AlJazeera channel about the protests. It was of course talking against the police. But in the news report, there were clear pictures of protestors throwing petrol bombs at the police. I don’t have that video clip.

    And someone said that rioters were attacking an empty police cars. What do you expect, the police to continue sitting in the vehicle? Lol?

  189. @Sara,

    “I have not seen you condemn the thugs killing innocent people in worse ways – because you have not heard about it from your regular news sources.”

    I have a very simple opinion about what you call thugs. If a person commits a crime, Take him/her to court, prove him guilty in a fair trial, and I will call him/her a criminal. A government can do that, so there is no need for condemnation of a protesters. However, when the government is shooting at people there is no justice, so the least we can do is criticize its brutality.

  190. @Sarah,

    “By the way, you said that you only talk on subject you are familiar with. You broke your own policy?”

    I am very familiar with Bahrain and its history. Not a person that lived there, but I have always had Bahraini friends since college. Visited a few times. Read its history and political movements. Etc. I know enough to have an opinion and I can support it.

    By the way I punted on many topics I do not know a lot about, you just do not notice silence 😉

  191. Sarah, actually, a person does not have to live in a country to be knowledgeable on a country.
    You are just using that fallacious hypothesis for a logical fallacy. As does Saud.
    If people can only use straw mans, and other logical fallacies to make their point, it gives the impression that you do not have truths and facts on your side, and you know it. Yet you still want to make your untrue point. That’s the impression you give.

    It is better to give straight comments and try and find real mistakes, faults, or real problems with other peoples comments. Instead of logical fallacies. If you can’t find them you should admit they are right and you are wrong.
    Or at least shut up.

    I agree with Moq that, not only on this topic, but on many others in the past, you always seem to be completely untouched by the suffering of others, it seems that the only thing you do care for is the protection and spewing propaganda, for the ideas, dogma’s and institutions you apparently love so much.
    Any human suffering caused by these you do not care about.
    Your comments here show you as a very selfish, callous, cold hearted person. If you are in fact a warmhearted, caring person, you should realize you are giving a very wrong impression and you should rethink your comments here, and change them.

  192. Thanks, dear, for your input. Appreciate it.

  193. MoQ
    ” If a person commits a crime, Take him/her to court, prove him guilty in a fair trial, and I will call him/her a criminal. A government can do that,”

    And that is why OBL was tried in court in US, and pronounced guilty as charged before Afghanistan was invaded and attacked. A government can do that.

  194. MoQ- I agree with you (for once hehe)
    that he is too old, and unfortunately not educated enough and has to rely on his advisors. I heard he learned to read and write later on in hi life and that he has difficulty reading stuff on his own, leaving it to the advisers to read or brief to him. And of course they could twist it around a litle to their own liking..

    But what I can’t get by is that he would just ignore so many more important things. He has always intended well and has a good heart.
    This was not reform, it was the contrary, going backwards and giving the religious leaders more power!

  195. So dissapointed in King Abdullah. Throwing more money at many of the wrong things- another “holiday” from school (I’d like to feel they at least pretend education is important). Lots of stuff for Saudi men. Isn’t that always the way? I will be surprised indeed if women get to collect any unemployment. Certainly our rights were not advanced at all. But people to harass us were reinforced and I’m just not happy right now.

  196. @Sarah,

    “And that is why OBL was tried in court in US, and pronounced guilty as charged before Afghanistan was invaded and attacked. A government can do that.”

    OBL was not pronounce guilty as charged, he is a a strong suspect. The US actually asked the Afghani government to hand him over so he can be charged in a court.

    Your friend OBL can receive a fair trial from an international court as soon as he hands himself over. Can you arrange that?

    You are confusing a declaration of war with the criminal justice system. It will help just a little if you take some time to read and understand how a declaration of war can be initiated in the US. Also, read a little about the US justice system These simple things may make some sense to you.

    Now regarding the war in Afghanistan, I was in opposition of the war from day 1. I am also in opposition of Guantanamo prison as people are being held without proof of guilt.

    Again my point is, you do not defend your position of support of violence against civilians directly. You use the default position of saying someone else is violent so that makes my support of violence OK.

  197. @Laylah,

    “He has always intended well and has a good heart.”

    Even if we assume he has a good heart, that is not the only qualification for running a country. I know hundreds of people that I view as moral and kind, but I would not trust 99% of them with running a small town. A person ruling a country should be qualified for the job as his performance impacts millions.

    I also think the King of Saudi, like all rulers in the ME, has the wrong priorities. His first priority is not the citizens, it is protecting the crown and his clan. When leaders have to make tough decisions, evaluating priorities is the single most important component in making such decisions. Hence, his advisors know these priorities and they are advising him based on them.

  198. MoQ,
    Yes US had asked the Talibans to hand over OBL and our “friends” Taliban, what did they say? They said give us some evidence that he is the one who was responsb ile for 911 but there was no evidence. (Pls do not give me that OBL himself admitted or that fake video).

    Yes I do not agree of holding prisoners without fair trial and i do not accept this from anyone. I am not even the last one to support viloence. Don’t get me wrong, I am totally against what is going on in Bahrain and if either party were killing innocent people then both are wrong. All I talk about is the right of anyone to defend themselves. DEFEND.

  199. @Sarah,
    I hope you include Shia as having the right to defend themselves. Because so far I haven’t seen that.

  200. I agree completey Shia’s or anybody’s right to defend, Sandy. In fact for an individual it is an automatic reaction.

  201. @Sarah,

    “They said give us some evidence that he is the one who was responsb ile for 911 but there was no evidence.”

    You do not understand the simplest principle about trials. The purpose of trials is to evaluate the quality of evidence through procedures. What you are suggesting is that evidence should be rejected without such evaluation. This is out of topic here, but you bring it up as a counter argument to an unrelated topic.

    At its simplest, the Talaban could have agreed to handing OBL to an international court, where he could have had a fair and public trial where all the evidence could have been evaluated.

    “Pls do not give me that OBL himself admitted or that fake video”
    Oh yes, I forgot about your conspiracy theories. It was a hand puppet with a beard in that video 🙂

    Again this has nothing to do with Bahrain’s government oppressing its people.

  202. Sarah, weren’t the protesters in Bahrain peaceful until they ended up having to DEFEND themselves? Aren’t the protesters protesting about people being imprisoned for YEARS without a trial? How, other than protests, do you propose that they get attention to their cause?

  203. Currently in Bahrain there are checkpoints set up all over the island. These checkpoints are “manned” by teenage Sunni boys for the most part…demanding car occupants hand over ID’s and asking if they are Sunni or Shiia. Police see these teens doing this and are not stopping them. Are we to assume they have permission to interrogate random people like this? And what if they are Shiia? What happens? Do the teens have the right to “react” in whatever way they choose to this revelation?

    Btv says everyone can go back to work now as things are “back to normal” but fails to mention all these checkpoints…manned by Bahraini “youth” with the govts permission I would assume. Whats up with that?

    Also, my friend that lives in Hidd (where I lived before, very extreme Sunnis there) witnessed military come through and mark certain houses with color. She asked one military man why they were doing that and he said to protect you from Shiias.

    Now how is marking houses going to protect them from Shiia? If rampaging Shiia decided for what ever reason to go raging through Hidd (very unlikely Im sure) would they even care that some houses are marked and some not?

    I’m thinking the houses have been marked to signify who CAN be attacked or harrassed etc…considering her house was marked and she is very outspoken against the govt, culture, and current events. She is Sunni tho and her husband is a high ranking military man himself…so who knows?

    All I know is nothing in that country is “back to normal”.

  204. Oh please, let’s stop this stupid argument!
    We all know the Bahraini government is evil and murderous, and they do exactly what they would do, who ever it is who is protesting.
    It’s a small group, without morals or conscience, willing to go to any amount of torture and murder to keep in power.
    Yes, they spread some crappy propaganda, yes, some really stupid people fall for that.

    This is the situation.

    They now get support in murdering their serfs by their buddies who are just as bad as they are, and who are dead scared that their own serfs would find hope and strengths by yet another population throwing off the yoke of oppression.
    So they are all willing to keep on killing until they are secure again. Thereby proving they are total crap as leaders. they aren’t leaders, they are all illegitimate bloody dictators, and anybody who fights them is on the side of good.

    That’s all. So can we please stop this discussion now?

  205. MoQ
    “What you are suggesting is that evidence should be rejected without such evaluation.”

    What evidence? There is no evidence only a pre-planned agenda to attack Afganistan. Lol. That’s how prepared they were for a quick entry into a foreign land.

    Yes you are right about the puppet with the beard. That was an obvious one and lot of people fell for it.

    Lynn,
    “weren’t the protesters in Bahrain peaceful until they ended up having to DEFEND themselves?”

    Lynn, the protesters were peaceful and it included Shias and Sunnis but this group was overshadowed by the thug group who took advantage of the situation.

    “Aren’t the protesters protesting about people being imprisoned for YEARS without a trial? ”

    The prisoners were arrested for crimes they committed and disturbing the security of the country. Everything takes time in this country. Trials, judgements, paper works … It is same as many people in prison in US awating trial. No sooner were these criminals released, they were back on the street plotting and acting on their evil schemes and are back in prison now.

    “How, other than protests, do you propose that they get attention to their cause?”
    I think you are confusing with those genuine protests and those who has other motives. The protestors who asked for reforms were peaceful.
    KSA has an open forum where anyone rich or poor can speak directly to the King about anything and this was the policy from the start of the Saud family. It is an open forum.

  206. @Sarah,

    Is there a conspiracy theory that you do not believe in?
    Just wondering 🙂

  207. “KSA has an open forum where anyone rich or poor can speak directly to the King about anything and this was the policy from the start of the Saud family. It is an open forum.”

    So Sarah, if a person from Jeddah went to these forums and asked that the government open an investigation in the Royals responsibility in the drowning of the city, would he get listened to or thrown in jail?

  208. MoQ,
    It is only conspiracy to the other side.

    ” if a person from Jeddah went to these forums and asked that the government open an investigation in the Royals responsibility in the drowning of the city, would he get listened to or thrown in jail?”

    I am not the King but most probably he will hear him out. Why not someone try and find out?

  209. Great, let’s see if you stand by your claim of the openness of the Saudi system.

    I will give a list of specific name, you go to one of those forums. Speak very politely, but let them know that you as a resident of the country and want the government to investigate those specific royals for corruption in contracts. It is for the benefit of the country and the King supports investigations of corruption as he said in his address to the country.

    Deal?

  210. I thought you are the one to do it since you have issue with JeddaH. I will deal with my own issues. Lol. You should have used this systyem before running away.

  211. @Sarah,

    What you call forums (majilis) are meetings where a prince holds court. People line up with pieces of paper. Some may get to speak but only to sing the braises of the prince (in form of poems). Then after all of the brown nosing is done. All of the poor people with papers line up to great the prince. Some will kneel to kiss his hand others will kiss his shoulder in an act of submission.

    All the while the pompous price will take each paper and hand it to his assistant. A few days later his assistants may decide to release some charitable donations to the people who handed the papers with some requests. It is all in bad taste where the people get humiliated.

    And some how in your weird mind, these are forums to solve problems. You are absolutely clueless. However, your comments are sometimes a good source for comedy.

    By the way, bad assumptions about me. Another clueless opinion you toss around when you have no clue.

  212. MoQ,
    Derogatory comments will only discredit yourself. So be careful. Again you are showing your “master of all attittude”.

    No I am not talking about majlis. I am talking about when people will have one-to-one, direct no one in between talk with the king. In your weird western mind this is all a comedy. Because you do not want to think or know that there is good in this part of the world. You want to make it seem all black as your mind.

    There are many people who go to ask things or get problem solved. If it was humiliating as you make it out to be then no one would go.

    We are way out of topic here. You can go back to you research now since you need to be updated.
    Cheers. I have better things to do. Thanks for your interaction. 🙂

  213. @Sarah,
    How exactly can anybody go see the King? What mechanism is there other than the majlis? In all my years here- I’ve never heard of what you are talkng about- yet Moq is describing quite accurately the Majlis protocals that people follow here when they have issues and need input/permissions etc. from those in authority.

  214. @Sarah,

    When you have no clue about a topic, but you insist on arguing, calling you clueless is just listing the facts.

    The King does not accept an average citizen to call his office and make an appointment. For you to believe that makes you clueless

    The King works through his local Amirs as I described above.

    Yes it is out of topic, but you brought it up as an argument to support your claims that Saudi has processes to listen to the people issues. You are simply wrong.

    And by the way if you go to one of those Mujalis and say anything to question the Royals, you will end up in jail in less time than it takes to say clueless.

  215. Actually the Saudi King has one day when he receive anybody including women , you just have to go too really to make sure you get in and Prince Salaman has one too.

  216. * really early

  217. Yes. The Majlis- where people petition the King (or Prince) which is pretty much as Moq described. Sarah claimed there is something OTHER than the Majlis- where some sort of two-way dialogue between King and subject takes place. That’s what I’d like to learn more about. Because I have some things to discuss with him 🙂

  218. ”even women” Waw! Even the subhumans get a chance?
    You can learn so much from the way people talk…

  219. Weekly Majlis with the Saudi king/other royals:

    … This was the first step taken towards formalizing the long-established Islamic system of popular consultation, which has always been practiced by Saudi rulers. In the Majlis, weekly meetings that are open to all, members of the general public can approach the King and leaders at the local, provincial and national levels to discuss issues and raise grievances.

    http://portal.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=1545&InNewsItemID=24409

  220. Sandy,

    Majlis in Arabic means sitting room, which mostly every Saudi house has one or two for guests as you know. The King’s Majlis is not the Majlis of Showra ( the advisory council).
    The King Majilis Sara is talking about, is the one that is open to the public, some Saudis don’t know about it but it does exist, you can go early and reverse a place and they will let you talk directly to the king, just like any Majils in Saudi exceptt you have to wait and then approach the King when your turn comes and talk to him. Prince Salaman Majils takes place every Friday after Friday prayer, and you in fact can address issues that concern you personally to him. I know many business people go the King Majils when they have conflict with Their province Governor.

  221. moq is right on about the majlis discription.

    i think the closes anyone here has gotten to the king is driving past his palaces. some people just like shooting abc’s on the internet.

    e.g. at the moment i have a beef with obama. do you think i can go visit him and let him know my complaints and he will fix it right away? no, just pay your taxes and be happy. it just isn’t fair. saudis don’t pay taxes!

  222. @ Saud, I know what you are saying but Sarah specifically said she was not talking about the Majlis where citizens petition the King. So I want to know what she is talking about.

  223. @GIA:e.g. at the moment i have a beef with obama. do you think i can go visit him and let him know my complaints and he will fix it right away? no, just pay your taxes and be happy. it just isn’t fair.

    Gia, we have a representative democracy here in the US. One can certainly get a personal appmnt with one’s congressional rep or one’s senator. They also hold periodic townhall mtgs where constituents can air grievances, problems, etc.

  224. i know.

  225. @Gia,

    The point is in Saudi there is no process. The idea that a majilis solves issues is random application. If you are lucky your issue can be reviewed by someone. Neither the King nor Obama is required to hold these meetings nor will they solve issues for millions. It is just a nicety that keeps rulers in touch with average folks.

    What is required of governments is to have systems which address issues. The system has to have separation of powers so corruption does not settle in. In Saudi the Judiciary, creation of laws and administration (which includes law enforcement) are all controlled by the King. There are no checks and balances in governing. Without such balance the system is vulnerable to corruption, injustice and incompetence in administration. All are true to an extreme form in Saudi. The reason is the government is not held accountable.

    No system is perfect, but no one can effectively argue that the Saudi system is even close to democratic systems of the west in providing participation and holding leaders accountable.

    Regarding taxes, the Saudi government owns the most important source of income for the country in the form of Oil. Of course they do not need to collect taxes. In the US the government does not own the sources of production, so they collect taxes to run the country’s business. And yes they are accountable for how they collect taxes and how they are spent. Congress which represents the citizens approves the annual budget and if the people are not happy with the job performance of their representatives, they can get them thrown out. We just had such election, where taxes were an important issue and the ruling party had heavy losses.

    In Saudi the people do not have a say on how their money is spent and whether corrupt people who gain from it are held accountable.

    A majilis is not a system that can solve broad issues.

  226. thanks

  227. Moq, excellent comment.

  228. @Sarah – ‘The prisoners were arrested for crimes they committed and disturbing the security of the country. Everything takes time in this country. Trials, judgements, paper works … It is same as many people in prison in US awating trial.’

    I thought that we were talking about people that were sitting in jail without even being charged with a crime? In the US you can’t sit in jail without being charged with a crime. They can only hold you for a couple of days before they have to either release you or charge you with a crime and then, if they charge with a crime they have to allow you to see a judge and they have to set a bail so that if you pay that, you can be out of jail until your trial.

  229. In fact, Sandy, when MoQ described the majlis I had the picture of Majlis As-shuraa in Bahrain which is just as described. This majlis in KSA and Bahrain is where the Kings meet their advisors and take counselling. This is what I had specifically in mind and I replied it is not majlis I was talking about (referring to the shura – as I said sometimes I get carried away). I was in fact talking about the sitting (not the advisory one majlis) that normal people will have with the king. Some of these will be televised or reported in newspapers. As Saud said there are lot of people who want to meet the king for any personal problems and some may get a chance others might not.

    Sandy, you can try your luck at this majlis.

    Lynn,
    ” In the US you can’t sit in jail without being charged with a crime”

    So what were they doing in Gitmo? What about Awal Gul who died in Gitmo after 9 years in prison without trial or Bradley Manning who was imprisoned for 5 -7 months without trial – among others. It does happen.

    The bailing concept is also here.

  230. And they say satire is dead!

    From a UN Human Rights Council Review on Libya, here is the HALL OF SHAME led by Saudi Arabia:

    Saudi Arabia commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya’s achievements in its constitutional, legislative and institutional frameworks, which showed the importance that the country attached to human rights, and for the fact that international treaties took precedence over its national legislation.

    It noted that the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya had become party to many human rights conventions and had equipped itself with a number of institutions, national, governmental and non-governmental, tasked with promoting and protecting human rights.

    Read More …..

    http://mikecunningham.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/words-do-not-often-fail-but/

  231. Sarah, Gitmo is NOT a part of the US Justice System.

  232. Lynn, thanks. But I am referring to people held captive without trial elsewhere including USA.

  233. Lynn, out of curiosity, the prisoners in gitmo, how did they get there? And what is the American interest in that?

  234. Sarah, We weren’t talking about POWs or how the ‘Coalition’ is dealing with them. We were talking about the justice system. There have been terrorists caught in THIS country and they are dealt with by the justice system and their rights are protected. Don’t try and confuse the two.

  235. @Sarah,
    The Majlis that I am talking about is the one where citizens petition the King. Not the one with his advisors. I have made that very clear. It is like Moq described. You mentioned some one-on-one appointments that can be made.

    You said, “I am talking about when people will have one-to-one, direct no one in between talk with the king.”

    So how do you do that? At the Majlis with the people their is a room full of people and if you get a chance you approach and make your petition- often on a piece of paper. Moq described clearly. Did you even read it? It was not about ministers or counselors.

    For now I’ll have to assume you are wrong about these meetings that citizens can have with the King and that rather than admitting you are, you’d rather just keep talking and describing OTHER forms of Majlis and ignore that the type you claimed to exist- the type you think people should be using- simply don’t exist.

  236. Oh come on Sandy!! You know Sarah is very creative. Reality and facts are just not important in her perceptions of the world. She can define it anyway she likes. We are just way behind in understanding how this works.

    A Saudi gets to participate in government through one of these forms:

    – Saudi’s can wake up real real early like Saud described and if they are lucky they can attend a Majlis. where they can write what they want on a piece of paper. If your lucky something will happen. If nothing happen you can be assured the King or your local prince have read your request, but he may have chosen in his infinite wisdom not to answer (you know like a Christian prayer, god hears all of them, but only answers a few)

    – A Saudi citizen interest is represented in a Shura Majlis. Yes the members are appointed by the King and really do not have any powers, but you should rest assured the King took your interests into consideration when he choose the members. You may feel that you could have done better by selecting your own representative, but realize you are just a citizen and your knowledge of these complex government matters are limited. The King knows better how to take care of his herd (oops I mean children.)

    – Last but not least, A Saudi can make an appointment with the King. Of course a physical presence of the King is not necessary for that to occur. If you can meditate well, he will be there in spirit and you can discuss all your issues with him.

    You just have to go with the program and have some imagination and everything just falls in place.

  237. Lynn, how are rights protected for those jailed without trial in USA.?

    Sandy, I understand that you are talking about the “people’s majlis” and I have made it clear that when I read first few lines of MoQ’s comment, the Bahraini advisory majlis is what came to my mind,. To be frank I did not read all of MoQ’s comment. People walk with papers in hand everywhere so that is not a sign of being in people’s majlis. Lol.

    Yes I am STILL talking about the gathering where ordinary people can talk about their issues with the king. We have been to such a majlis in Bahrain. We had to make an appointment and when we went, it was not crowded and we were about the only ones there and there was pin drop silence. There was no singing or poetry reading, no kissing … nothing of the sort. It was just us (of course the security men and few other officials) but it was one to one talk. In KSA, we did not go to any such meetings so I would not really know how to go about it. If you want I can find out for you, But there is such majlis available and sometimes talked about on TV and newspapers. Here is one article on it:

    http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article319592.ece

    I am not making it up as you are saying.

    What MoQ described was what happens in advisory majlis and that is why I was thinking about that.

  238. That article is talking about what I and Moq are talking about. There are no appointments. And true- you needn’t bring a paper- but it ‘s to your advantage if you do because after talking to numerous people, without leaving a record- it will likely be forgotten. Anyways’ it’s mostly one of those self-praising types of articles/commentary of which there are all too many here. The article is slanted to make it look as though the Kingdom is some bastion of democratic behavior- when most people know it is not.

    It certainly seems you are making it up based on what you did in Bahrain. However, since you offered, please find out the mechanism for making a personal/private one-on-one appointment with the king. I know many people who would love to be able to do that. And apparently it is happening nearly every week. How wonderful for all of us who need to talk to him.

  239. Sandy, the appointment I was talking about was in Bahrain. I am not sure about the procdeure in KSA as I had already said. Yes taking a paper would be helpful. The reason I gave the link was to show you that I am not making it up. Why would I? Yet you still insist that I am making it up. Even after reading an article about it, you still say, I made it up. I don’t understand why you insist on that. It is an Islamic custom anyway for the leader to find out about the subjects. What advantage is it to me if the king meets his people or not? I am just saying what does happen. You can take it or leave it. I will try to find out the procedures for you.

  240. “Bahrain’s ruling system is a red line that can’t be questioned or contested, Kuwait’s National Assembly speaker Jassem Al Kharafi said.”

    Transalation…sit down, shut up…or better yet…turn around and bend over and continue taking it up the …..

    Kind of religious in nature really…you cant question Islam and you cant question rulers of “Islamic” countries. 😦

  241. @Sarah,
    I don’t have time to look back through the thread but you actually told Moq he was wrong when he described the kind of citizen majlis we have here- and claimed he was talking about a majlis with Ministers etc. You also told me that I should go to the kind of one-on-one that you described. Sorry- he was right. He described the citizen majlis.

    We do not have here what you claim to have in Bahrain.The most accurate thing you have now said is “I am not sure about the procedure in KSA”. You certainly are not. And the reason I keep thinking you made it up is because I already know how it works here.

    YOU are the one completely resistant to learning something. MoQ described it and you didn’t read it and you disagreed with it. I have told you that is how it is. And that newpaper article you linked is not in disagreement. So why do you think we do not know? Why do you think you know better?

    @ anyone,
    In another point- has anyone seen any EVIDENCE of outside influence in Bahrain? – other than the GCC troops showing up of course? I know the gov’t keeps claiming they are not loyal and taking orders from outside- but has there actually been ANY evidence of this?

  242. @Sandy,

    No evidence presented just claims. The governments in the region always through claims of outside influence. Example:

    – If it is Shiiat, they are connected with Iran and Hizbullah
    – If they are socialist, they must be connected with the godless soviet union. Since the soviet union is gone, they replaced that with Iblees.
    – If they are liberal, they must be influenced by the West.
    etc. etc.

    Same old games, same old methods, and they still crack down on any dissent and calls for freedoms.

  243. Sandy, ok so your argument here is that MoQ is righ and I am wrong. If this is what you are aiming for, fine. As I said I did not read through his comment because as I had said before the other majlis was in my mind. You can say it was misunderstanding.

    Yes I did say I am not sure what the procedure is here because I did not go to one. But I do know that there is such a majlis and that is the point I had made from the start and then else. Why argue on this. I thought that you didn’t know because you asked for the procedure. Your words were “That’s what I’d like to learn more about. Because I have some things to discuss with him “. Because of this, I explained to you what the majlis was. Further you asked my help when I offered, making me believe that you sincerely needed to know the procedure. Now you are saying ” because I already know how it works here”. So why did you go in circles? I genuinely wanted to help you, ya habibti. If you know, then perhaps you can tell me the procedures. 🙂

  244. @Sarah,

    The issue is not whether you read my comment or not. The issue is you claimed there is a process in Saudi, which allows people to voice their opinion. You claimed that people can talk to the king. We responded to that and here we are a week later and you are still going in circles.

    The point again, Saudi’s do not have a process to get their voices heard, they are arrested if they protest, they do not have a legal system that is codified and can be trusted to be just, they are surrounded by corruption, the government has been prejudice against minorities, etc.

    These are facts, but you still go on and on arguing instead of just accepting reality. The people who protest against the government of Saudi have legitimate concerns.

    Same for the Bahrain protesters.

    So far all of your arguments never acknowledged the concerns of the people. All you have been doing is throw around noise level arguments to distract from simple facts.

  245. @Sarah – ‘Lynn, how are rights protected for those jailed without trial in USA.? ‘

    What the heck are you talking about? What rights are you trying to insinuate that they don’t have? They are not ‘jailed without trial’ they are jailed while awaiting trial, unless they were offered and posted bail.

  246. @sarah ‘But I do know there is such a majlis’
    No you don’t . Not in Saudi. You Made a false claim and I called you on it. AFTER you mDe the false claim. I never said I was in need of a majlis. However it you really do know something than share how it’s done. There are many despRTe people here who would like to know.

  247. Lynn, so people are in jail while they await trial?

    Sandy, if you say there is no such majlis then it is your belief but I believe there is. So? I did not make any false claims because there is such a majlis. On what basis are you saying it is false. Do you have any link or evidence to show that this no such majlis? I already shared with you a link which you rejected as false. I quoted directly from you where you said you wanted to talk to the King. (” I have some things to discuss with him “). You reject your own quote?

    I really do not understand what you are getting at. How do you know what I know. How can you make such a judgement? How can you say I made a false claim?

  248. @Sarah – ‘Lynn, so people are in jail while they await trial?’

    Yes, some are. But they HAVE been before a judge and they know what the charges against them are. They have the right to an attorney and it they cannot afford an attorney, one is appointed for them. Some people will not be able to get out on bail if they cannot afford to pay the bond or if there is some reason to believe that they are a flight risk or a danger to society. While they are awaiting trial they have access to their attorney and visitation with family. Also, this time spent while awaiting trial can be used as ‘time served’ if, after a trial, they end up being sentenced to prison.

    Is that process anything like the one that imprisoned those that the protesters are wanting released from prison?

  249. I know people who have petitioned at these majlis. They are aa MoQ described. Believe as you like. But yes, if there were they type of majlis you describe with a free exchange of ideas I would love to go. So please tell us. Your article described what MoQ described, in a more flattering way.

    @ MoQ
    Yes I haven’t been aware of any evidence of outside influence either.

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