Saudi Arabia: “USA” versus “THEM”

There will no doubt be continued fallout from the highly charged congressional hearing in Washington, DC this past Thursday on the ‘radicalization of American Muslims.’  For the House Homeland Security Committee to hold a hearing on such a topic makes it sound like all American Muslims are to be viewed with fear and suspicion…reminiscent to Japanese Americans during WWII who were rounded up and detained without a trial.

I do not deny that actions of some American Muslims have instilled suspicion and fear but isn’t such a hearing an “US versus Them” attitude with US being American born non-Muslim nationals and an American born Muslim national the undisputable Them?

The problem as defined by this committee is that too many young American born American Muslims are being influenced and thereby radicalized by extremist groups, Al Qaeda in particular.  Fine; identify a problem, back it up with examples and statistics.  Conclude with solutions, actions and initiatives rather than end with what seems like pointing fingers and accusations flying a la the former era of McCarthyism.

I found myself feeling frustration as I watched the news reports which covered the hearing.  The reports only seemed to highlight (or encourage) a growing divide and building of mistrust and misunderstanding among fellow Americans without any interference from a foreign group or foreign government.

What do YOU think?  What are your suggestions to extinguish the growing flames of mistrust before there is an out-of-control inferno?

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50 Responses

  1. Actually, I thought the situation was handled in a way that was respectful to most Muslims. Those involved made it clear that it wasn’t muslims as a whole or Islam that was of concern but growing radical islamization of some native born Muslims. being a non muslim I didn’t see it as an attack campaign but as a way to open a dialogue about something that is undeniable…some young muslim americans are becoming radicalized. By having the three muslim men (one the father of a muslim) it felt to me that they were trying to open a respectful dialogue that included Muslims and perhaps even put them at the forefront to help lead this resolution. I think it is ludicrous to not to be able to talk about the problem because we might offend some people. I think Jasser has got it right…Muslims should be HIGHLY offended by what is happening to their faith and should WANT to step up to the plate and lead the battle against islamization. Talking about the problem that has sprung from some in the faith is not offensive. sticking our heads in the sand and pretending there isn’t a problem IMO is even more offensive. Because as radicalism increases and we see more actions taken by these Muslim youths it might build to a point where drastic action will have to be taken to stop it and that might be far more offensive to Muslims and the faith than trying to get a handle on it now.

    I look at it as someone coming from another faith that is having a crisis…the Catholic church and the pedophile issues. Should we as Catholics stick our heads in the sand and not talk about it because it is offensive to our faith and puts our faith in a bad light? Or should we shine a big fat spotlight on it and call it what it is… pedophilia…give it an identity and say we must stop this and work toward that goal? I say we should name it and work on it. If we don’t then that cancer will be left to spread too and undermine the faith at it’s deepest foundations.

    That doesn’t mean all priests are pedophilic or anyone in the faith agrees with it. Catholics, like Muslims, love their faith and if something has gone awry and gotten out of hand or dangerous it is our duty to try to fix the problem. There is no such thing as offensive…there is the reality of what is going on and left unchecked will get far worse. If you think Muslims look bad through these hearings or are looked on with fear imagine how much worse it will be if we do nothing? And imagine how much respect non Muslims will have for Muslims if they face the situation head on do something about it instead of complaining about how it is offensive.

    What is offensive is a pedophilic priest who does damage to my faith and it’s reputation and what is far far worse the damage he does to a young tender soul.

    What is offensive is a radicalized Muslim who seeks to harm innocent people and spit in the face of the country that welcomed him or to which he was born. To me that is far more offensive than tackling the problem head on and stepping on a few toes.

  2. @Carol,

    I am in agreement with Oby. We are a democracy and the US congress has the responsibility to hold hearings on any topic it deems important for the security of the country, as politically incorrect as it may be. There had been many incidents in the past few years to create a concern about radicals recruiting young people. That is a real problem, which needs to be looked into.

    Every-time some investigation targets a political, religious or racial minority, we should be concerned that a witch hunt may result as a consequence. This committee just started its work. I think we should be guarded, but it is too early to invoke the McCarthyism title.

    I was (and still are) more concerned when the PATRIOT act was put into law. Where some of our freedoms and privacy rights were revoked.

    I may change my mind about this committee, if I sense that they are moving in the direction of creating discriminatory laws or try to take liberties away.

  3. From what I saw of the hearings, there wasn’t much, but any real investigation takes time and one should not rely on what happens on day one.

    Still, the US has enemies and Congress has a duty to investigate. Our enemies use islam as their organizing ideology (otherwise how do you get Pakistanis and Afghans to support an attack by Arabs against the US?). We need to investigate that ideology and its spread.

  4. Yes, everything that Oby said. Also, I don’t see it as any different than your post of a few days ago where you asked WHY in regards to Khalid Aldawsari. It IS important to try to figure out why these people are being radicalized and see if it can’t be stopped. We can’t afford political correctness anymore.

  5. Well said, oby!

    Carol, I’m surprised you bring up the Japanese internments, actually, since the two situations are markedly different. There is little evidence that Japanese Americans were being influenced by Japan’s anti-American ideology or attempting to plant that ideology in American soil. In the current situation, however, there’s a lot of evidence to support the belief that American Muslims are being influenced by anti-American and extremist ideologies originating in the ME.

    Take for example Saudi Arabia’s long-term and extensive funding of mosques, schools, religious leaders, exchange programs and propaganda. The return on all that investment is surely a more Wahhabi-friendly – if not Wahhabi-centric brand of Islam in America.

    I applaud the King Hearings for their courage and integrity in looking into issues which absolutely affect national security, and believe, as they must, that this is one of them.

  6. I’ve met a lot of protestant Christians who want to mix church and state, and I don’t hear people making a big deal out of this. I have also heard them make derogatory, extremely offensive statements about Muslims.To be honest, these both offended me a lot as an American. While there may be some problems with radical Muslims (who I personally haven’t met yet), I’ve met my share of radical Christians, which I don’t hear getting the same press. So yes, I think this is just something that is being sensationalized unnecessarily by the press. There’s a reason I don’t watch the news on TV, except occasionally CSPAN ’cause it’s sometimes the most interesting thing on. I avoid Fox news at all costs if I can!

    I don’t like the “Us vs. Them” mentality, and I think in terms of religion, Christians can be some of the worst about this.

    I’m not really sure what to do about this because for most people, logic cannot change their emotionally-tied beliefs. Most people also believe everything they hear in the media, so I guess you’d have to take the focus off of this and create more good press about Muslims in the US and how they are helping their communities positively.

  7. I agree with everyone here. Yes, turning our heads when violent rhetoric and teachings have filtered into our communities is not an option; however, King should not have limited the discussion to Islamic radicalization, but Christian, as well. Actually, how about homegrown violence in general? The congresswoman from Arizona was not shot by a Muslim man, you know. We must be careful, as all have stated, that the hearings do not contain McCarthy-like hyperbole. Honestly? I don’t trust King. I feel he has other objectives than honest ones.

  8. Carol,
    You are ‘spot on’ about the resemblance of great Red fear in the mid 20 th century.
    I think the US needs to ‘go back to the basics’ . We are becoming more and more a divided society and to some extent full of irriational fear. My goddness, in the 1950’s if one was caught reading Cather in the Rye, trouble would arise.
    Suggested reading America: What a billion muslims really think (Esposito)(Not Fox news!!!)

  9. I have no problems with hearings. I think we need to have them on right wing extremists in the US too. A back pack bomb was found at a MLK march recently, dozens could have died. Five right wing extremists arrested recently planning a terrorist campaign.

    I also think Congressman King, the guy running the hearings, should be investigated for moral and material support of terrorists. He is a long time supporter of the Irish Republican Army and once said that if an IRA bomb caused civilians deaths they were not responsbility.

    This guy looking for extremists would be like David Duke looking for racists.

  10. I think this is something that needs to be carefully guarded, it’s potential for turning into a witch hunt is too great for comfort. I don’t know if what they claim to want to do corresponds with what they actually plan to do.

    Besides, I think that instead of focusing on Muslim youth they should be focusing on the old guys; the imams and scholars and their messages, sermons and teaching, I think that’s where the real danger starts.

  11. “What are your suggestions to extinguish the growing flames of mistrust before there is an out-of-control inferno? ”

    I’ve often found talking to people and trying to understand their points of view helpful so I am not as prone to think of it as “us vs. them.” It’s a lot harder for me to dismiss a group if I know people within that group.

    I wish there could be more breaking down of walls so people can know each other and appreciate differences. The divisiveness makes people suspicious and more likely to dislike those not on their same side. I hate to see my country so divided.

  12. I would like to salute Rep King for holding the much needed hearings on radicalization of moslems in America. Pete King’s hearings are very revealing and are shedding much needed light despite the ‘sobbing’ Muslim Brotherhood-tied, Hamas-supporting Keith Ellison’s crocodile tears ………..

    For example, the idea that these hearings are somehow a witch-hunt or a waste of time when the rise of Islamic jihad is the greatest threat to the Western world flies in the face of reality. The Democrats have held hearings on:

    Katrina/Rita FEMA Trailers: Are They Safe or Environmental Time Bombs?” “Pandemic Influenza Preparedness and the Federal Workforce.” “Online Privacy, Social Networking, and Crime Victimization.” “The State of U.S. Coins and Currency.” “Diversity and the Department of Homeland Security: Continuing Challenges and New Opportunities.” “Civil Rights Services and Diversity Initiatives in the Coast Guard.” “Protecting Animal and Public Health: Homeland Security and the Federal Veterinarian Workforce.” “The Illegal, Unreported, and Unregulated Fishing Enforcement Act of 2009.” “Tribal Police Recruitment, Hiring, Training, and Retention at the Bureau of Indian Affairs.” “Organized Retail Crime”.

    Here is the much needed background to the King hearings:

    Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran are the Axis of Jihad, and together form the greatest single threat in existence to Western civilization and to all of humanity.

    Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of this militaristic and abusive political dogma, supplies money to terrorist Islamic organizations and individuals to sabotage other nations. It is the strategic and financial headquarters for worldwide Islamic terrorism. It is the international center of Wahhabism, the crucible of worldwide terrorism, and the Saudi government has spent billions of dollars spreading official publications through mosques it funds all over the world, with heavy concentration in the United States, promoting hatred of all non-Muslims, and inciting sedition and treason against all democratic forms of government as “un-Islamic.”

    The Freedom House report, “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques,” documented examples of the Saudi propaganda being pumped like a gusher—using oil money that came from us—through American mosques:

    “Be dissociated from the infidels, hate them for their religion, leave them, never rely on them for support, do not admire them, and always oppose them in every way according to Islamic law.”

    “To be true Muslims, we must prepare and be ready for jihad in Allah’s way. It is the duty of the citizen and the government. The military education is glued to faith and its meaning, and the duty to follow it.”

    “[I]t is basic Islam to believe that everyone who does not embrace Islam is an unbeliever, and must be called an unbeliever, and that they are enemies to Allah, his Prophet and believers.”

    “It is forbidden for a Muslim to become citizen of a country [such as the United States] governed by infidels.”

    “[Muslims should work] to form a society that is committed to the Islamic way of thinking and Islamic way of life, which means to form a government that implements principles of justice embodied in the Sharia . . . Until the nations of the world have functionally Islamic governments, every individual who is careless or lazy in working for Islam is sinful.”

    “We will not stop at this point, but will pursue this evil force to its own lands, invade its Western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal, and there will be no more ‘persecution’ and all religion will be exclusively for Allah.”

    The U.S. State Department embraces the source of that hatred, the elitist Wahhabi Saudi government, as its dearest ally in combatting Islamic terrorism.

    Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis. Osama bin Laden is Saudi. The Saudi-controlled International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO) is documented as having given at least several hundred thousand dollars to Hamas organizations. In an intercepted phone call, one al-Queda operative told another, “Don’t ever worry about money, because Saudi Arabia’s money is your money.” According to court documents, an unnamed Saudi industrial corporation was paying for the tuition and living expenses of Saudi national Khalid Aldawsari, arrested by the FBI for plotting to use weapons of mass destruction on key targets in the United States.

    Saudi Arabia pays for building Wahhabi mosques all over the world, and mosques are political headquarters for the transnational Islamic state that Saudi Arabia’s constitution and goals are entirely committed to. Mosques all over the world, including in America, are military-political outposts representing a state-within-a-state, and Saudi money is funneled to them through front-group “charitable organizations” and cut-outs.

    Pakistan’s clandestine agency, Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), runs Pakistan, no matter who its puppet president is. The ISI created the Taliban and al-Queda, using Saudi money. The ISI supplies refuge and cover for Universal Jihadists—which is why its purported “ally,” the United States, has poured billions of dollars and rivers of American blood into a rigged game, and gets nowhere.

    Pakistan is also the cradle of Sharia law. Faisal Shahzad, the fizzled Times Square Bomber, was an alumnus of the College of Sharia at Minhaj International University in Lahore, Pakistan. The U.S. State Department was duped into secretly backing a plan for Sharia law to be instituted in Pakistan’s Swat Valley area, on the naive belief that one Taliban group would be better than another Taliban group. Of course, both Taliban groups actually wanted Sharia implemented, and it was all coordinated by the ISI, so the U.S. was simply played as a mark in the shell game, as usual.

    One thing the State Department has gotten almost right—and even a broken clock is right twice a day—is the declaration that Iran is a leading state sponsor of worldwide terrorism. Iran, though, is merely the most artless state sponsor, and is a handmaiden to the covert financing and sponsorship of terrorist movements by Saudi Arabia.

    Together, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran are the unholy triumvirate that dominates the transnational nation of all Muslims, and that sponsors, protects, teaches, develops, and glorifies Islamic terrorism throughout the world. This is the Axis of Jihad.

    War is Deceit: The Divine Deception: An Empiricist Analysis of Islamic Imperialist Doctrine ……

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/islamic-jihad-articles/war-is-deceit-the-divine-deception/

  13. ‘I’ve met a lot of protestant Christians who want to mix church and state, and I don’t hear people making a big deal out of this’

    So? They won’t ever be able to so it is a moot point, no reason for anyone to make a big deal out of it. If those that were calling for this were also planning terrorist operations then yes, I’m pretty sure that they would be being watched and congregants would be talked to WITHOUT an organization like CAIR behind them telling them NOT to cooperate with the FBI. 8-]

  14. http://www.faithfreedom.org? Really? Well that’s not biased at all…

    I don’t know the details on this hearing, but I think generalisations should be avoided as much as possible. In my country, every muslim girl who weard headscarf or every muslim man who wears a beard is seen as en extremist and radical, and I find this very sad. I don’t know the situation over there in the US, but I hope people will not start seeing every Muslim as a possible terrorist. There is a danger, yes, I acknowledge that, but it should be handled with the utmost care as not to make it seem to the public that they should fear every Muslim they meet.
    I also agree about the Christian radicals. Nobody opens their mouth about them!

  15. @goldenraindrop, on March 12, 2011 at 9:54 pm said: http://www.faithfreedom.org? Really? Well that’s not biased at all…

    To make it unbiased, here is another link to the same article. Mr. Vijay Kumar has been published on half a dozen websites. Happy now :)-

  16. @goldenraindrop, on March 12, 2011 at 9:54 pm said: faithfreedom.org? Really? Well that’s not biased at all…

    To make it unbiased, here is another link to the same article. Mr. Vijay Kumar has been published on half a dozen websites. Happy now :)-

  17. The problem that underlies this whole issue is the fact that between ordinary Islam and “radicalized” Islam we find a long, slippery slope. No one knows where the defining markers lay, and therefore, we tend to behave extremely in our attitudes.

    We either accuse all Muslims of being potential terrorists, or we exonerate the religion in its entirety for inspiring some of the worst acts of terrorism the modern world has seen.

    The West would be well within its rights to define critical behavioral markers, and establish the appropriate response. If anyone errs, it should be on the side of safety, which is a more important value than the avoidance of discrimination.

  18. We have laws that help with the avoidance of discrimination. There is a difference between ‘thinking’ (wrongly or rightly) something prejudicial about someone and accusing them or discriminating against them based on your personal opinions.

    I think this fear of being politically incorrect is to blame for the Ft. Hood murders. People KNEW there was something not right with him but they were afraid of being ‘insulting’ and now people are DEAD because of it.

    Perhaps if you tried to contact the Muslims that are happy to participate in the hearings you could get a different understanding of it’s intended purpose?

  19. Let me give my 3 pennies worth. It is not USA vs Them, whoever ‘them’ is.

    It is Muslims against non-Muslims. I think it has been demonstrated that Muslims will not let non-Muslims live in peace. If Muslims are in a minority, they say one thing. Yet as soon as they are in control, immediately we see their true colors. Look around you, people, look at Islamic societies. Is there one that accepts non-Muslims as equals?

    As to the so-called moderate Muslims here and else where, the ones that constantly tell us that “Islam is misunderstood “and “most Muslims are peaceful”, I don’t believe you. I have read your scriptures and I am appalled by the hate and violence. Your ignorance is no excuse.

    I see no reason to believe that Muslims in the West are any different from their brothers and sisters in Islamic societies. If you could, you would end our freedoms, because we are just infidels and you love your dear prophet more than freedom of speech, more that the ideal of democracy and more than the silly notion of equality. You would kill us for being honest and having an opinion you don’t like.

    I will tell you what. Why don’t you people ask your buddies in Islamic societies to stop the hate and violence against non-Muslims. Ask them to end legal discrimination. Have them repeal the apostasy laws. The we can talk. Note that I am not even asking you to be honest about the violence and character of Mohammad. If you think he was the greatest thing before sliced bread, that is fine, as long as you treat others as you want to be treated.

    Won’t happen.

  20. Jay, I agree with you that it is very likely that, if they could, they would end our freedoms but to say that they would kill us is probably going too far. SOME would kill us, sure, but not ALL of them.

  21. What is wrong with the hearings is their lack of substance. Old stories designed to show muslims are good or bad, depending on your view, but mostly bad, were rehashed and we heard from only one law enforcement official and no muslim youth leaders. There is no visible effort in American government to gain information that would help Muslims solve the problem of radicalization. if the idea was to help we would see money given to research how young people are radicalized, who is most at risk and implementation of programs to stop such ideology. Rather, what we see is gov’t officials leading the attacks on Muslims for political purposes. Jay, you explain the problem for American Muslims nicely: no matter what we say or do we are the enemy, we must be destroyed before we destroy you and there is nothing we can do to show otherwise. You won’t even “talk to us” until we change law in other countries? How convenient. Since we can’t do that you can just keep up your hatred. Did anyone posting here really listen to what was said at the hearings? Did anyone read what some have written? It was stated it is not sufficient that Muslims help law enforcement in spoiling radicals’ attacks, we are supposed to be held to a higher standard of the American ideal than anyone else. We have to demonstrate that we understand and appreciate the founding principles of America, and a failure of one to do so is the failure of all. In conclusion, I am not ignorant of what is written in My Quran. For that reason I say; Peace to you. You go your way and I will go mine. God knows best what we do and will judge which of us is correct.

  22. Lynn,
    I heard the charges of CAIR and imams telling people not to co-operate with the FBI are misleading. People have been told not to co-operate without a lawyer present. Last I checked, this was a right of all Americans.
    Oby,
    Where are the hearings on whether Catholics are doing enough to stop pedophilia? Are people protesting the building of Catholic churches? Are Catholics being told to “go home” and being vilified as pedophiles because of the actions of a few?

  23. ” People have been told not to co-operate without a lawyer present. Last I checked, this was a right of all Americans.” -> Nicely said Alice.

    Some of the comments on this forum are quite disturbing. There is enough hate and violence in this world, why keep spreading the hate?!?

  24. @JAY: I have read your scriptures and I am appalled by the hate and violence. Your ignorance is no excuse.

    Billy Rojas, former teacher of Comparative Religion, history and social science and a lecturer at the University of Oregon, Pacifica Forum, 2008 – early 2010 has developed a “Questionnaire for Muslims seeking U.S. Citizenship”. He has recommended it for use by the US Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services:

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Questionnaire_for_Muslims_seeking_U.S._Citizenship

  25. @Alice – ‘An event page on CAIR California’s website (specifically their San Francisco chapter) shows an upcoming “Know Your Rights and Defend Our Communities from Grand Juries that included a poster “Build A Wall of Resistance” …’

    http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2011/01/cair-california-build-wall-of-resistance-against-fbi.html

  26. Lynn,
    A quote from your link:
    “CAIR National actually does advise Muslims (CAIR National’s “IF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTACTS YOU” link) NOT to talk to law enforcement unless they have an attorney. Refusing to talk cannot be held against you, they advised
    Note: this is just one example how CAIR works against the FBI.”

  27. Alice, Not talking to the FBI without a lawyer was not the issue. Every American or resident alien knows, or should know their legal rights but The “Build a Wall of Resistance’ was the issue. Keyword RESISTANCE. What is wrong with telling the FBI ‘don’t worry, I’ve got my eyes open and if I ever notice anything I’ll give you a call’?

  28. Thanks for the link Mr. Guggen, It is telling that Christians and Jews don’t have to repudiate their religious traditions or texts to become citizens. But wouldn’t it be great if we actually held Christians to the same standards? If someone steals your coat give them your cloak could become the law of the land. Maybe we should punish people who try to stop thieves. Surely we should punish those who bring them up on charges instead of giving them more of their stuff. How about turn the other cheek when someone assaults you as opposed to filing charges? I was just reading the book of Mark yesterday and it confirms that Christians believe those who blaspheme will suffer eternal damnation. How intolerant. Follow the way of Christ and when the government comes for you, let them torture and kill you, so no rights against the power of government! “Spare the rod and spoil the child” ring any bells….I think Christians should have to repudiate the child abuse that is sanctioned in the Bible, don’t you? You may not be aware but it was Christians who led the fight against child abuse statutes arguing that the Bible gave them a right to beat their children. It was also on Christian principles that they fought against the rights of women. We probably shouldn’t get into what the Torah says about killing non-jews, and their animals, whose property you want. We allow Nazi’s and skin heads their beliefs, all other religions can have their beliefs, Anarchists are ok. Why? Because we believe in freedom of belief. For every other group we stand up for criminalize behaviors, not beliefs. But Muslims are different. Muslims are criminals from the inside out. Every good and law abiding act is an act of deception. This isn’t fantasy. Americans are taking positive steps to criminalize muslim beliefs. Against this backdrop, Muslims are supposed to prove themselves worthy of “your” America? How are we supposed to do that? Who are the extremists here?

  29. Lynn,
    What did they propose “a wall of resistance” about? What is the context of this poster? What is the stuff about Minnesota anti-war activists?

  30. Alice, I don’t know. I guess perhaps you could read more on the link I provided. But, the poster is pretty clear with the doors slamming just because the FBI was in the area. I don’t see any smiling citizens asking for warrants or anything. 🙂 That’s all I was getting at, it was NOT the context that you put it in (legal advice). CAIR has now removed that from their website so I’m guessing that they realised that it it DID send the wrong message (or at least that the message shouldn’t be so blatant and/or tied to their organization). 😉

  31. @Alice, on March 15, 2011 at 6:18 pm said:

    Thanks for the link Mr. Guggen …

    You are most welcome, Alice!

    But Muslims are different. Muslims are criminals from the inside out. Every good and law abiding act is an act of deception. This isn’t fantasy. Americans are taking positive steps to criminalize muslim beliefs. Against this backdrop, Muslims are supposed to prove themselves worthy of “your” America

    What you say is very true and I agree with you!

  32. @Alice – ‘It is telling that Christians and Jews don’t have to repudiate their religious traditions or texts to become citizens… But wouldn’t it be great if we actually held Christians to the same standards? If someone steals your coat give them your cloak could become the law of the land.’

    Well, then, I guess that just shows us that Christians and Jews DO have to repudiate their religious traditions too. No?

  33. I think it’s unconstitutional to single out one single religion and start grilling it’s adherents. It’s against the very backbone of the American Constitution.
    It’s a great constitution and it guarantees freedom to believe whatever religion you choose to believe.

  34. Lynn,
    Why are you so certain that all of your beliefs will stand up to scrutiny as you propose this new inquisition? Second, It’s pretty clear from what I read on your CAIR link that the poster in question is tied to the FBI investigations of legal anti-war activities not islamic extremists (although you may believ e being against war is extreme). Finally, if you listened to the testimony of the only relevant witness at the hearings, U.S. muslims are co-operating and stopping terrorism within the US. What would be great is if we could get people to stop giving extemists all the reasons they need to make their cases. It;’s tough to argue the U.S. is not waging a war against Islam when people are arguing muslims should be criminalised for their beliefs, passing laws against muslim beliefs, protesting muslims attending muslim events, bombing them and the American public mostly appears to agree. You want us to put out a fire but you keep throwing gasoline on it. Why?

  35. Mr. Guggen,
    You leave off important parts of my passage and say you agree with me. Clear case of straw man. I am in no way yet convinced that you agree with me. But I do have a puzzle for you: My religion says to lie to cover up what my religion says but I am lying about what my religion says. How do you know what my religion says?

  36. Alice, where do you get the idea that I am proposing ANYthing let alone any kind of new ‘inqisition’? BUT I can tell you that MY beliefs DO coincide with The United States Constitution. Sure, there are plenty of us that gained our citizenship by the mere facts that our mothers were in this country when they gave birth to us and we do not all necessarily automatically respect the Constitution but are still allowed citizenship. 😉

    My point, which you seemed to not get was that you were calling for equal treatment (IF that made up questionaire was a reality) and I am saying that the equal treatment IS there.

    ‘What would be great is if we could get people to stop giving extemists all the reasons they need to make their cases.’

    Huh? What exactly are you talking about? Are you saying that extremists are all terrorists or are you saying that terrorists have justification for what they do?

    @Alice – ‘An event page on CAIR California’s website (specifically their San Francisco chapter) shows an upcoming “Know Your Rights and Defend Our Communities from Grand Juries that included a poster “Build A Wall of Resistance” …’

    http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2011/01/cair-california-build-wall-of-resistance-against-fbi.html

    The poster was used, in THIS instance (if originally used for another purpose is really irrelevant in the context of this discussion) to prevent Muslims from trusting and talking to the FBI.

    ‘It;’s tough to argue the U.S. is not waging a war against Islam when people are arguing muslims should be criminalised for their beliefs…’

    Who, exactly, is saying that?

  37. Alice, on March 15, 2011 at 10:10 pm said:
    But I do have a puzzle for you: My religion says to lie to cover up what my religion says but I am lying about what my religion says. How do you know what my religion says?

    Hi Alice,

    I am an athiest and my knowledge of islam comes from extensive personal study of koran, hadees and seera of prophet mohammed. To answer your question:

    There is an islamic concept whereby lying is sanctioned as moral under certain conditions, for a moslem ….

    “Muhammad said: ‘Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie to an enemy, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people.’” —Ahmad, 6.459.

    The Islamic doctrines of taqiyya—willful lying to infidels—and kitman—concealment of malevolent intentions—has been used by Muslims for 1,400 years to deceive nonbelievers and gain advantage for Islam.

    The 9/11 terrorists, the Times Square bomber, Major Malik Nadal Hasan, who murdered 13 people in cold blood and wounded 29 others at Fort Hood—these and many more all were masters of taqiyya and kitman.

    Islam condones “a lie to an enemy”—and every non-Muslim is an enemy of Islam, according to Islam itself: “The Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” —Quran 4:101

    No religion condones and supports and encourages lying, treachery, and deceit as “moral.” Islam does.

    Regards,

    Harry Guggen
    Seattle, WA

  38. I am left with “eh” after reading all of these comments. When it comes down to it, none of you are experts in anything that you discuss, as far as I can see.

    Just because you read the Bible, the Torah or the Qu’ran in their English text (maybe even twice!) Doesn’t make you knowledgeable. And even if you could read it in their original text and you are blogging on here, then you probably aren’t that knowledgeable either. That is like saying “I read the book “what it is like to be a doctor” and now I can tell people what is medically wrong with them.

    If you are trying to support your cause (to denounce Islam) and you are using what you think is Hadith to gain ground… Are you serious? You think any right minded Muslim would think you know crud about Islam because you googled “Hadith Against Prophet Muhammad” and came up with what you think is “proof”? (but it had a source!… pah)
    And if you listen to the guy described above… Are you for real? That is like getting legal advice from the soldier in the bunk next to you (barrak’s lawyer).
    If you are Muslim, and you think that you can play the same game as the dude mentioned above… WHY?! Don’t shame the Holy Book of a fellow follower of God.
    If you are Athiest… Why do you work so hard to try to vilify a religion? Why do you even care? In the end, the person is bad or good. Unless of course you are scared that the religious might try to take away your right to not believe in God (hogwash…)

    Last thing, for those of you who want to “prove” your “feelings” about the other guy, why don’t you go find that “other guy” and smack him for me. I hate that guy for trying to ruin my life by making other want to take away my right to do what I want to within the frame work of a civilized and free country.

  39. Lynn,
    of course not all Muslims would kill us “for being honest and having an opinion you (they) don’t like.”. If we were in a Muslim society and I said the things I have said here, my chances would not be good. The radicals would kill and the moderates would remember they had other things to do. This is what is wrong with Muslims. In the West they just complain and offer threats. In Muslim societies, they kill people that criticize their dear prophet and religion. They are unable to be honest, no matter how factual or mild the criticism. If I were to say “the hadith, chapter such, verse such say that Mohammad attacked defenseless villages and enslaved the people.” do you think they would accept this? No. Do you think they would say, “Well, lets take a look at the text and see what it says”? NO, they are unable to think beyond their official version. What the Quran and hadith really say means nothing to them. They will quote one peaceful verse and ignore a “hate and kill” verse two chapters away. Of course, that says a lot about their character and intellectual honesty; it also says a lot about the textual integrity of their sacred writings.

    I think there is no hope. We in the West have contributed to this by our political correctness and lack of appreciation for our own freedoms. The future will not be nice. Muslims, just like everybody else, will have to decide what is important. They will have to choose between Mohammad and freedom, between submitting to Allah and intellectual honesty

  40. Jay, I don’t disagree with what you say. Are you my daddy? lol But seriously, there are people that call themselves Muslims that would NOT kill you, no matter what. Sure, they may not save you when their brother is killing you but THEY wouldn’t do it. Be fair now 😉

  41. “Last thing, for those of you who want to “prove” your “feelings” about the other guy, why don’t you go find that “other guy” and smack him for me. I hate that guy for trying to ruin my life by making other want to take away my right to do what I want to within the frame work of a civilized and free country.”

    Do you have a picture of this guy? Or at least a description, I will find him for you. And yes he will get a smack upside the head as I tell him I have a gift for you from Stephi 🙂

  42. Stephi….some on here have read the book more than once..more than twice…and a great deal more than thrice. Just because we happen to be on a blog doesnt mean we are uninformed…speaking personally of course.

  43. Just because you read the Bible, the Torah or the Qu’ran in their English text (maybe even twice!) Doesn’t make you knowledgeable. And even if you could read it in their original text and you are blogging on here, then you probably aren’t that knowledgeable either. That is like saying “I read the book “what it is like to be a doctor” and now I can tell people what is medically wrong with them.

    That is a logical fallacy. You can’t compare these two very different fields.
    And in the case of that religion which claims itself to be simple, for all people and all times, it should be enough to read the one book which holds everything a person needs (according to itself), shouldn’t it?
    Nor should it matter that it is written in an obscure language if it is meant for all people and all times.

    Unless of course you admit that the book is mistaken in it’s claims.

  44. LOL at you guys responding to Stephi. I read her comment and just left with the thought ‘eh’ silly kid doesn’t even know what she’s talking about 😉

  45. Alice, I am sorry but I missed your comment. You say that I say that “Muslims must be destroyed”. NO. I have never advocated violence against anybody. I may say things that Muslims don’t like, but that is the extent of it.

    It never ceases top amaze me how Muslims see the world. If one criticizes Islam, they see “persecution”. If I say that Islam or Muslims are immoral, they think I want to kill them. This is the product of your mentality, not mine.

    The fact is that Muslims don’t share our values or even our vocabulary. Let me give you an example. In the Western tradition, a ‘martyr’ is a person that dies peacefully for his/her religion. In Islam, in the ahadith and in Islamic websites, a ‘martyr’ is a jihadist that may have killed ten innocent people but when he dies – in battle or blowing up infidels – he becomes a ‘martyr’ for Islam. .

    Alice, as I have said before, I don’t think anything I say here, or even your arguments, will make any difference whatsoever. We are on the path to ruin and destruction. I think people like you are doing more than your fair share to get us there.

    As to ‘destroy’ or ‘destruction’ be certain that your being Muslim is more punishment than I would ever wish upon you. Not just Muslim, but woman Muslim – sounds like you are in for a hell of a life. May I quote the ‘mother of the believers’ – Aisha, to you – who said “I never seen women so abused as the wives of the believers”. I’m too tired to look it up, but it is in the hadith for sure. If I remember it was about a woman that came to her all black and blue from beatings. You must be proud. Now say Praise be upon him and remember that your dear prophet said to never ask (or criticize) why a man beats a woman. Yes, Alice, that is in the hadith too. Or maybe I am lying and just making all this up. What do you think?

    One more thing, Why do non-Muslims have to help “Muslims solve the problem of radicalization”. Isn’t that a job for Muslims? Could it be that the radicals know Islam better than you, and that is why they always win?

    Lynn, I am pretty sure I’m not your Daddy! Only have one daughter and she is in China now. One son in Brazil, another in New York, mean wife in Hawaii and I am at home with dog in Arizona. Life is OK but dog is not much for conversation.
    .

  46. ‘mean wife in Hawaii’ LOL Does she live there?

  47. This video is interesting and amusing at the same time:)-

    Saudi Arabian Muslim Accepts Jesus!

  48. Lynn,
    No, just visiting. I do miss her. It is hard for a guy not to have a woman around to tell him what to do.

  49. That is pretty mean of her to be visiting Hawaii and leaving you there to dog sit without any direction. She should know that men get all confused and anxious without our guidance. Did she at least make you a freezer full of food before she left to prevent you from eating that unhealthy fast food and greasy pizza? I hope, for your sake, she comes home soon!

  50. I can’t image any Muslim saying that Islam is simple, and that they understand the Qu’ran even though many of them have memorized it. Same goes for Christians. Many Christians can’t even tell you what language the original testaments were written in. Why? Because they don’t really care, they trust their teachers. (and in that is a problem in and of its self).

    And, I do think it is very reasonable to compare religion to medicine. Religion is not unlike any deep science (in the sense that it is not simple, nor can it be mastered without dedicated research and practice) for those who adhere to it. Come on… BILLIONS of people adhere to religions, and when people adhere to something they do not completely understand they trust the experts around them to guide and help them (or at least should). So, for people to think that they should practice a religion, but not seek out experts to help them along the way are the ones that end up in the wrong place. And isn’t that what you are all arguing about? Trying to figure out how to stop radicalism?

    And, if I were a kid (which I am not any more or less than the rest of you), at least I am a smart “kid” who is seeking out people who have spent their entire life dedicated to understanding something, rather than taking advice from random strangers who think they know everything but do not have much to back it up. I know, then why am I here, you are asking me? Well, I was just trying to argue that if you think that non-experts arguing with each other about stopping radicalism is going to conjure a solution, the reality is that this is exactly what creates radicalism: people who don’t understand anything about what they are talking about trying to act like they are the most knowledgeable.

    Just because you know what an appendectomy is doesn’t mean you know the first thing about how to remove the appendix, how to diagnose appendicitis, or what antibiotics could be used to decrease the chance of serious infection.

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