Saudi Arabia: When Have YOU Needed God the Most?


Unless an American Bedu reader is a professed atheist, most of us can at least agree that there is a God.  Here is my question which I am confident can be answered –and- discussed without arguments, barriers and pretenses.  When have YOU needed God the most?

Speaking (or rather writing) personally, I’ve gone through a lot of life-changing experiences in the past year.  I don’t believe I could have made it to where I am now without feeling the presence, strength and comfort of God.  I needed and felt His presence when Abdullah and I were both battling our cancers at the same time. I felt His presence and comfort when Abdullah lost his battle to cancer. He’s been with me every step of the way as I have rebuilt a life without Abdullah and while continuing my own battle against cancer.

Yes, I am feeling very introspective and reflective as I write this post.  I am writing this post in advance as I am getting ready to undergo a medical procedure that will likely have me incapacitated for a few days and away from my computer. I’m not eager to undergo this procedure but realize it is necessary in order to better understand the growth and spread of my cancer. This is again a “God moment” for me who allows me to face this procedure with strength and courage. By the time you, American Bedu readers, view this post the procedure will be behind me.

However, as I started out in the beginning of this post, let’s start a dialogue of sharing of when YOU have needed God the most!

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115 Responses

  1. I woke up thinking of you today, Carol, and have been praying that you are well during your procedure. Lots of love and good wishes!

  2. The time i was looking for help in my life and Islam came to me was in a terrible time of late teens when some family problems occurred. After that i realised why just ask god when i need help why not everyday multiple times, the way god has commanded us to do.I don’t think you can live through life without understanding/aknowloging that there is a purpose for our tests in this life because if i didn’t understand that the way i have through embracing Islam, sometimes you just feel there is no way out, nothing good to come of it whch is really sad..at least i know that the pain i am going through or have been through will be rewarded and that i am learning something from this struggle in my life. How amazing is that instead of always being the victim when things go wrong.

  3. Honestly, everyday of my life!!!

  4. The moment I discovered my ex had been raping our daughters for years…I needed God the most then…to explain to me how that fit into the Big Plan and what the purpose was to pray to HIM 5 times a day asking HIM to protect my children…and then find out it all meant nothing. So yeah…really needed HIM then to explain things to me.

    Still waiting….

  5. Personally i’ve needed god most in times of trouble, F’s accident a long time ago, again last yr. When my uncle was sick adn my SIl was dying.. I’ve prayed and asked why? my grandfather always tellsme, you can ask questions ,but there are no answers, you MUST accept life as it unfolds.

    He always said prayer would not stop bad things from happening, it justs bolsters your courage to face the bad things..and points you to good decisions.

    @coolred,
    i trust my grandpa’s words, he would say you coped well and made a great life out of the miserable deal you were handed.

  6. Pray–never. Happy April Fool’s Day.
    Yes, I do. I pray for guidance, I pray for friends’, you, Carol being one of them because of situation. I truly believe prayer works and God works through all of us.

  7. I’ve had many priviledges in my life but am a depressive. In my twenties, I had no relationship, no carreeer and no home. At that time I started wearing a wedding ring as I reminder that my home, marriage and career is God. I’m 48 now and still have no relationship, no carreeer and no home in the traditional sense. I still wear the ring. My faith basically means: make positive effort for good everyday.

    My favorites students when I was teaching were the GED students. Many of them had dropped out of high school young because of family situations. More than one was being raped by a family member at the time. I revere courage of these people. They were and still are the living Christ in my life.

  8. I believe pray works. I think the toughest part is knowing when or being able to listen when our prayers are answered! We also have to be prepared that our prayer will be answered at God’s time and His answer may be quite different from what we wanted or expected. For example, speaking for myself, my entire life has been changed around. I now have much less than I’ve ever had yet at the same time that no longer matters because I feel like I’ve been given so many other gifts that are priceless. It’s a great feeling!

  9. If a person thinks that prayer is what helps them then that is all fine and good and I am happy that they found comfort in something. BUT, in support groups you always hear about people questioning their faith or being angry with God for what happened and it seems very disturbing for them. I feel blessed that I don’t have to worry about THAT while I grieve. I still get that comfort that the person is no longer suffering without imagining them living it up ‘with God’. I can still be thankful for all of the great things in my life without needing to thank ‘God’. I have what I have not because ‘God’ allowed me to have it but because my parents and then I made the right choices in my life. Everything can be taken away in an instant so I have to appreciate what I do have when I have it. I think the ‘power of prayer’ and the ‘power of positive thinking’ are VERY closely related because I think that a positive attitude CAN help heal as much as good nutrition can.

  10. AB…”We also have to be prepared that our prayer will be answered at God’s time and His answer may be quite different from what we wanted or expected. ”

    So basically we just get on our knees…pour out our hopes and fears…then sit back and wait to see whether or not God is going to respond? And IF he does respond it may not even be what we asked for so then why bother asking in the first place…its all in his hands to give or not…and since apparently he already knows what we want since he is “closer to us than our jugular vein” then there shouldnt even be a need to perform a physical prayer when our minds are always full of “prayers” that come and go throughout the course of our day…some in earnest and some not so much…but still…hopes and dreams.

    It all sounds like a crap shoot. I think prayer makes US feel better…and at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with that.

    BTW…the Quran says “ohservants, ask of ME and I WILL answer your prayers.” It doesnt say anywhere…in my own good time and however I want…if I even want to. It says ask me and I will…so much for that.

  11. In my belief we have to have submission before we can truly hear God’s answers and see/feel his work in our life. We do have choices which God allows us to make which can be good or bad. I believe when praying it is not about what -I- want but what does God want for me? I need to hear God’s answers rather than give him my demands.

  12. I truely experienced that “peace which surpasses all understanding” when my mom was dying. She stopped treatments 3 months before she passed, as nothing else could be done. My grandma became ill for several weeks and passed one month before my mom. I was the only family in town for grandma, and mom couldn’t leave the house. I also had 3 children, the youngest of which was 6 months, and was nursing. I was back and forth and inside out. In the midst of that stress and chaos was a deep peace. It’s ironic, but I had never felt such centeredness. I kept hearing in my head, “Be still, and know that I am God”.

  13. During the last few weeks Abdullah and I had together we started praying in ways we had not prayed before. This was in the hospital. I’d sit on part of the bed beside him. We’d clasp hands, close our eyes and each of us would speak to God from the heart. We’ve never done that before and it created such a special, close and unique bond between us in those last days. By praying words out loud together seemed to unlock a new door of communication and closeness. We talked to God and asked questions of God instead of saying specific prayers. Prayers were not dismissed entirely but I cannot stress enough the joy and peace we both received when holding hands and speaking from the heart. Even when we were apart and still fighting our cancer battles, we continued to pray out loud together via Skype. I have no doubt of God and his presence however our minds and heart also need to be open.

  14. coolred-

    i feel your pain, however the Quran is a manual for
    Muslims, there r conditions to being a Muslim, and there r conditions of dua being accepted. I am so sad for you that you feel the way you do. I am going to prat for you whether u like it or not.

  15. obviously i misspelled and meant pray

  16. Jessica..Im very well aware of what the Quran is…and what it isnt.

    There are ‘conditions” for duas being accepted? So what your saying is that my ex met those conditions and thus his disgusting crime was covered for nearly 20 years…and I apparently didnt meet those conditions so my duas went unheeded?

    Makes sense when you look at it that way.

  17. I agree with Lynn in that the power of prayer and the power of positive thinking are related. They are both what we wish for, in a way.

    I believe that we are all connected to each other as we are all created with the same energy/life force (God). In this, we influence each other both through our thoughts as well as actions. And of course, our thoughts influence our actions. There are things that have happened to me that I can’t explain, both good and bad, and I won’t even try to. Also, there have definitely been times when prayer has seemed to have helped.

    There was one time in my life when I was questioning my faith, my career path, and basically anything that makes me unique and who I am. There are times I wonder (since I was a tween, at least) why I am me, why can’t I be more conventional. These are possibly the times I have felt that I needed God the most. There have been times when I have wished that I was the type of person content with being a housewife rather than seeking out the next challenge/adventure in life. Most of all, though, there have been many times I’ve wished to be a mother even though it’s so much work (with the main problem being it either requires the appropriate funds or the right guy for me). I still don’t understand why I was meant to be different, but I try to make peace with who I am and accept it. I think being content with who we are is a choice we make. Prayer might help, but ultimately we have to choose to be content and do our best to be optimistic and move on with life.

  18. I’ve needed god quite a few times in my life – but I’ve never been so aware of that fact as this past year. Ironically, I think recent events have actually made me more religious. I don’t believe in the ideas of “ask and ye shall receive” nor “ask and I’ll ignore you.” For me life is half destiny, half your own creation – you’re given situations and it’s up to you to deal with them and their consequences. Everything happens for a reason. Tragedies now may help prepare you for something down the road, or even help push along another’s life – sometimes you never know. It’s not my job to know why, only to give thanks and ask for guidance as needed and remember “god helps those who help themselves”. But then, my ideas of god and religion may be a bit unconventional. I can only pray that all my prayers will somehow help to lead me to where I want to be.

  19. I also agree with Lynn about the connection between the prayer and positive thinking – or negative, for that matter. I think prayer (or whatever you might like to call it) is merely energy you put out into the world that eventually returns back to you. Are you merely saying the words? What kind of emotions are you saturating them with? I believe that along with religious purposes prayer can also be a way to help settle yourself or to release what’s been pent up, or as preparation for a difficult fight. Basically, you get out of it what you put in.

  20. @JACEY: , however the Quran is a manual for
    Muslims, there r conditions to being a Muslim, and there r conditions of dua being accepted.

    I was curious about those “conditions” and consulted with a moslem friend of mine. He referred me to an excellent article by a Mr. Layth Al-Shaiban, Why Are Prayers Unanswered. http://free-minds.org/answer

    Here are a few excerpts from the article:

    How many times have you asked GOD for something? Did GOD answer your prayer every time? Did GOD answer your prayers at all!.

    “When My servants ask you about Me, I am always near. I answer their prayers when they pray to Me. The people shall respond to Me and believe in Me, in order to be guided.” (2:186)

    How can this be!. If GOD is telling us in His holy book that He answers prayers…Then WHY is He ignoring mine!!! WHY is it our prayers go unanswered???

    PRE-CONDITIONS:

    The Quran tells us that GOD answers the calls that implore Him with ‘conditions’:

    Condition # 1: GOD Alone is Implored.

    “If you are afflicted in the middle of the sea, you forget your idols, EXCEPT HIM. But as soon as He saves you to the shore, you revert. Indeed, the human being is unappreciative.” (17:67)

    Condition # 2: GOD Alone is Followed.

    The real secret for knowing how to have your prayers ALWAYS answered (not just in times of distress) is to ‘Live The Life’ that is the path of ‘GOD Alone’:

    “Those who proclaim: “1. Our Lord is GOD,” then * 2. lead a righteous life (Istaqamu), the angels descend upon them: ‘You shall have no fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news that Paradise has been reserved for you. We are your allies in THIS LIFE, and in the Hereafter. You will have IN IT anything you desire for; you will have anything you ask.” (41:30-31)

    Condition # 3: What you ask is what you Get.

    When speaking to GOD, we will ask for many things, and we will think of what to say and whether we want this or that thing…GOD does NOT respond to your ‘words’, but He will respond to what is asked from the ‘Heart’.

    Sometimes, a person may express a particular need or wish in his prayer directly, while thinking something to himself that expresses a different desire. GOD responds to the innermost desire.

    Remember what the Angels have been committed to in Condition # 2?

    “We are your allies in this life, and in the Hereafter. You will have in it anything you desire (tashtahoon); you will have anything you ask.” (41:30-31)

    The verse makes clear that what you ‘Desire’ will take PRECEDENCE over what you ‘Ask for’.

    Condition # 4: Only what is Good for you is given!.

    While you may have truly asked for certain things (like change of job), GOD may not respond to your prayer since in it will be more harm than good.

    GOD (in His ultimate Mercy for mankind) will only give you what is better (not worse).

    “Fighting may be imposed on you, even though you dislike it. But you may dislike something which is good for you, and you may like something which is bad for you. GOD knows while you do not know.” (2:216)

    Condition # 5: Patience in Observed.

    Now that we understand how to have our prayers answered, we must also understand that GOD responds ‘As’ and ‘When’ He sees fit:

    “He is not questioned about anything He does, while all others are questioned.” (21:23)

    The Lord is our creator, GOD, and Master…He would never do anything to ‘Harm’ us or inflict ‘Pain’ or ‘Suffering’ to His servants…Thus, we must allow GOD to answer our calls in the ‘Best Manor’ that He deems rather than in our own ‘Selfish’ manor, which may cause more harm than good.

    Condition # 6: GOD Alone is Remembered.

    Once we ask GOD Alone for help or for ‘something’, we must NOT turn our backs to Him and expect that He will still be there to help us.

    “He (Joseph) then said to the one to be saved: ‘Remember me at your lord.’ Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.” (12:42)

    In the story of Joseph, we see how a ‘righteous’ man, a Messenger, was left to spend years in-prison because he did not ‘Remember’ to implore GOD Alone!.

    CONCLUSION:

    Now that we have shown how GOD’s system is at work, you should ask yourself: ‘Are ALL my prayers being answered?’.

    If the answer is ‘No’…then you need to examine 2 elements in your life:

    Do you believe in GOD Alone (no power or place for anything or anyone else)?;

    Do you lead a ‘Righteous’ life? (as drawn-out by the ‘Straight Path’ 6:151-153).

  21. ‘Everything happens for a reason’

    I kind of think along that line BUT, I look for something positive that can have come from a tragedy. Like HOPEFULLY, someone will have learned something from the tragedy that will save them somehow. You want your loved one to have not died in vain. Perhaps you can save lives with their organs or someone vowed to never text and drive or drink and drive or got into a rehab to get off of drugs.

  22. or FINALLY went for that dreaded mammogram!! 😉

  23. @ Coolred-

    What an absurd thing to say. What your ex did is disgusting, I doubt very much that he is a Muslim, just because he is an Arab!
    Clearly you are not now, if ever you were. If you are interested you can google Nawakid Ul Islam, which means what breaks your Islam. And Allah s.w.t. may not answer the prayer of non beleivers. Tawhid (oneness of Allah) does not just mean beleiveing Allah created everything and Muhammad was his messenger, it is so much more. Without fulfilling tawhid, Allah s.w.t. has no obligation to answer your prayers. May he guide you.

    BTW I am not down playing what that pig did, if he dies w/out fulfilling the conditions of Islam surly he will burn in hell forever. About the rapes, Allah may choose to forgive him if he made sincere tauba or may not, he may spend some time in hell even if he is or becomes a Muslim.
    Last thing, I just wonder if maybe your daughters would not like you to be telling their story on other peoples blog, it is your story too but everyone knows who you are. I cant imagine they will ever get over it, if it was me I would die if my mother was talking about something so serious, of course you know better than I.

  24. I’m not sure that all of us need a God. I am not a professed atheist. I regard myself as an agnostic. Much of my family is church going Roman Catholic and I have a sentimental attachment to the trappings of the church as it existed a generation or two ago.

    In my worst moments, I haven’t felt the need for prayer (there have been a lot of bad moments in the last 6 years so the opportunity was there).

  25. I find it truly ironic that when I had the absolute most trust in God and believed in His words and followed his will to the best of my ability…my life truly sucked and I felt there was no escape from it. The moment I decided that all my prayers were a complete waste of my time…..whispers in the wind to an uncaring god…I gave up prayer once and for all…make of it what you will but my life is now somewhat close to normal…on track for better things…worth waking up for every day.

    Irony is a bitch. 😉

  26. Red, I believe that it is because you finally realise that YOU have control rather than being a ‘victim’ who sits and waits around for ‘God’s Will’ to happen. Yes, they will say that it was God that helped you come to those decisions. 8-}

  27. @Jessica: And Allah s.w.t. may not answer the prayer of non beleivers.

    Hmmmm. Interesting statement …

    Then please explain why non-believers are so much advanced culturally and scientifically than the moslem “believers”. Let’s just take one measure for the purposes of this discussion: non-believers have won hundreds of nobel prizes in science and literature while moslem “believers” have won only three in the last one hundred years.

    Now please don’t give reasons/excuses we have already heard of like colonialism and islam’s golden age. Try to answer the questions in terms of present tense and not the past tense.

    Seems like to me that Allah swt is not listening to the five times a day prayers of moslem “believers”, in addition to zakat, fasting and haj. Looks like the Sky Daddy has forgotten completely about the moslem “believers” and their prayers and is paying a whole lot more attention to the prayers of kafir unbelievers!

  28. @Harry

    I will ignore your rude and condescending words. First of all, the 5 daily payers are not what this discussion is about, dua is more of a personal prayer, like unbeleivers may pray. Basically where you talk to God.
    Secondly Non beleivers being more advanced culturally- laughable. Look up the root word culture and you may notice that most non beleivers have no signifigant culture that they adhere to, Muslims the complete opposite.
    Thirdly the Noble Peace Prize is not a measure of success in our world. Heaven and hel are.
    Forthly which should have been firstly I meant to type Allah s.w.t. may or may not answer the……. but he has promised us to answer our prayers as long as we meet the requirements.
    Fifthly not everyone named Muhammad or Fatima is a Muslim, Islam has conditions and even those born to Muslim parents have to choose Islam when they come of age of maturity and fulfill its requirements to staying a Muslim.
    Last but most important is Allah s.w.t. says that sometimes we beleivers are in power and sometimes we will be weak w/ the non beleivers having the upper hand in life. A tic for tack test for US.
    Oh and I dont think that scientific advancment is something Kafirs pray for on a regular basis, HE s.w.t. is not answering your prayers, but testing us.
    Be sure Islam will prevail again, HE said it, so we know it to be true, you may want to get on the right boat before your life expires.

  29. Whatever makes you happy, Jessica. Whatever …

  30. Jessica: “I will ignore your rude and condescending words” Yeah, you might want to re-read your own post, because I’m pretty sure I sensed quite a bit of condescension there. “He is not answering your prayers, but testing us”? Are you serious?

  31. Lynn…

    “Red, I believe that it is because you finally realise that YOU have control rather than being a ‘victim’ who sits and waits around for ‘God’s Will’ to happen. Yes, they will say that it was God that helped you come to those decisions. 8-}”

    I agree…we all know the saying “God helps those who help themselves”. Evidently God doesn’t care for victimhood either!

    Jessica…

    I find your remarks racist and ignorant. Obviously your God is a very different one than mine because in my world God is merciful and loving and just because someone doesn’t follow islam doesn’t mean they don’t get to heaven…but I guess you must be one of the “heaven is a Muslim club” crowd.

  32. btw Jessica…

    Your entire last response to Harry…really kind of scary your mentality…interesting that you have a nonarab name, probably a convert that has so totally swallowed the kool aid that you are unable to make room in your life for anyone other than other Muslims…sounds a lot like you are part of the problem that the world is facing rather than the solution…but I’ll give you points for being honest about your feelings…still your attitude is why a non muslim like me who never had issues with Muslims in her whole life (longer than most on this blog) is now rethinking the whole situation. Your attitude is very disturbing. Most especially since you are probably a convert, and therefore had some life outside the one you know lead as a muslim and had some understanding of a different thought process. It seems to me maybe we should be asking questions and wondering about bridging the divide and “interfaith dialogue” if your attitude is the norm.

  33. Just to set the record straight…I was a victim of the unjust one-sided divorce laws still in place in Bahrain…to ACT would have meant losing my children. So I basically had my hands tied and forced to endure the situation until they came of age and could make their own. Right up until the moment I discovered what he had been doing…then I realized I was waiting for God to listen to my prayers meanwhile he was busy listening to someone else’s in our home. At that moment I decided I would take my damn chances with the court system…either win or lose but I would get a divorce and if he had even one brain cell left in his head he would agree to the divorce (remember in Bahrain THE HUSBAND MUST AGREE TO THE DIVORCE) otherwise you are married married married for life…even if the shit is nowhere around or abusing you on a regular basis.

    I convinced him that I would first, expose him if he didnt agree to the divorce (turns out nobody really cares what a father does to his kids in the Arab world generally speaking but he was sufficiently scared to not want to take those chances) and secondly I would kill him if he didnt. As i said…the baseball bat was a great decision maker on his part.

    I was NOT a victim of apathy…I was a victim of freaking Sharia Law. There is a big difference. ‘

  34. @Jessica,
    I thought that anyone who is monotheistic and believes in the same one God whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or whatever is considered alright in Islam because they all believe in the same God/Allah, just have different “books” they follow, thus the other monotheistic believers are known as people of the book? Or am I wrong? Just pointing out that most of the people who have commented on here do fit that description.
    Jessica and Harry,
    You want to know the people who (positively) change the world? The ones who do what they love, what their passion is, and share that passion with the world (granted it is a positive thing). The ones who also care about others and do their best to make life better for everyone. I don’t think religion has much to do with it. Some people are passionate about business, some about art, some about helping others, etc. What makes the biggest difference, from what I have seen, is that most people aren’t willing to work hard and/or give up perceived “stability” in order to really work towards their dreams and goals in life. The ones that are tend to make a difference and propel the world forward.

  35. I also resent the claim that God helped me simply because I finally helped myself…this would mean that he never helped my children (protected them from rape) simply because they never tried to help themselves…really? Is that how it works?

  36. Coolred…

    I understand what a horrible siuationyou and your kids were in. I should have been clearer when I made my statement. I was trying to say that when we pray to god that is all well and good, but at the same time we should act on our own behalf as well to solve the problem. In some cases such as yours you are very limited in what you could do due to the law. I was flippant and did not inany way mean to imply your children were in any way at fault for their siuation…I can’t imagine anyone thinking that. My mistake for not being clearer.

  37. @Coolred: As i said…the baseball bat was a great decision maker on his part.

    I read your story on your blog. As I said it before, and I will say it again, you are the IRON LADY!

    @Strangeone: What makes the biggest difference, from what I have seen, is that most people aren’t willing to work hard and/or give up perceived “stability” in order to really work towards their dreams and goals in life. The ones that are tend to make a difference and propel the world forward.

    Well said … I couldn’t agree with you more!!!!

  38. ‘I was NOT a victim of apathy…I was a victim of freaking Sharia Law. There is a big difference’

    Just to clarify, I wasn’t accusing you of being a ‘victim’. But I think that if one is sitting around, as instructed by their religion, waiting for ‘God’s will’ to happen to them then they are a victim of ‘religion’.

    ‘we all know the saying “God helps those who help themselves” ‘ Yeah, I know it, doesn’t mean I believe it. The God part anyway. Is that even in the Bible or is that just something that some wise person said?

  39. @Jessica: …. the Noble Peace Prize is not a measure of success in our world. Heaven and hel are.

    That’s truly unfortunate in what you say you believe in. I sincerely hope that moslems will find a common-sensical balance between seeking heavenly paradise and the pursuit of happiness …. building their societies and cultures, emphasis on seeking scientific and literary knowledge and education of women, girls, boys and men.

    Of course, such a fetish with seeking a heavenly paradise has given birth to moslem martyrs. These suicide bombers, who in order to gain instant gratification with Allah swt and to gain a quick ticket to islamic paradise, have been going on the mayhem to slaughter innocent kafir women and kafir children, including their fellow moselms who ever they consider as kafir.

  40. Coolred,
    I am amazed at how well you have dealt with the situations you have had to deal with in life. And out of it all, you still manage to be compassionate, kind, hard-working, and doing your best to make life better for you and your family. I think that’s awesome, and I think that many people on here would agree with me.

  41. I ditto what StrangeOne said!

  42. We as believers do have choices but we also need to submit. I do not believe that I can simply demand for God to do this or do that but I do believe I can ask him to guide me, show me and tell me what I meant to do and meant to do for pleasing HIM not myself. Shouldn’t all of his who believe be living our lives as HE would want us to do?

    I think any of us with differing kinds of beliefs should get together with the objection of focusing on what we do have in common and what we can do together such as helping the poor or the homeless. If you’re in Charlotte, let me know…we’ll just do it!

  43. @Coolred: I just wanted to tell you that as being someone that can relate 100% to your daughters experience, that what happened to me was my pathway to Islam, although when i read your posts it makes me saddened hearing this painful experience you are undergoing but even more the outlook you possess of life. I am in no way trying to fix your problems just offering some kind advice inshallah. Try not to think of urself as victim that was me for a year and it ruins u. Weather you were muslim or not the same thing would have happened, but the difference is… At least you know that your (ex) will have a punishment, beyond any pain your could inflict on him, and when i realised this, it was like my saving grace and allowed me to fully accept islam into my life (as brutal as that may sounds. When someone has been inflicted with pain all you want to do is cause harm to that other person, which only leads to countless dissapointment).
    I learnt SO much since what happened to me, and that if this is what my creator wanted for me because he knew how strong i am to be able to overcome this then NO ONE has the rite to tell me otherwise.
    All i wanted to say was don’t ever turn your back on Allah Lord of the Worlds, when a test comes your way, just because you don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel, fight it, struggle through it and inshallah u will succeed.
    Ure mind frame is one that even if your prayers were being answered u are so hurt u wud not be able to see anything good coming from it.
    Im not saying when i accepted islam my problems ran away no. but don’t be fooled by shaytans wispering which i can see is happening to u and u believing that you don’t need to seek refuge in Allah, when he is the only one that u will ever be able to rely on is shaytan winning.
    As someone who has experienced the same as your daughters and who is in her early 20’s (im guessing similar to ure girls) i just ask that you allow them to seek knowledge.
    As a muslimah the fact that i am striving for jannah and hopping inshallah that one day i wil get there; the mere knowledge that i will be in the most amazing security and protection next to the one that created me is worth what happened to me happen 100 times over.
    I am now married to the most amazing muslim man, and all i want in this wordly life as it is nothing but a virtual testing ground for allahs creation, is to die as a muslim inshallah.
    Life becomes so simple when you shake away the arrogance and prinde and submit, it does not mean you have failed yet you will be victorious in the end. I love you for the sake of allah and just know it was never you fault is that ever popped into ure mind.

  44. Carol, I think that is a wonderful idea, and I wish more people would do that type of thing. I tend to meet some very unusual people myself, with very differing beliefs, but they rarely mesh well, particularly regarding religious beliefs. It seems people tend to concentrate more on their differences than on their similarities.

    Wish I could help!

  45. Carol…

    Interesting comment…I think the thing that a lot of people miss is that most of the major religions DO submit to the will of God…they just don’t name it as such. In Christianity we say “the will of God” I am sure Judaism calls it something else but in essence Chrisitans do submit the same as Muslims…”thy will be done” in the Lord’s Prayer indicates we will accept what God deems fit. In many ways I think it is a matter of semantics. Some religions might not actually label it submission but in essence that is what they also do.

  46. Jessica…”Last thing, I just wonder if maybe your daughters would not like you to be telling their story on other peoples blog, it is your story too but everyone knows who you are. I cant imagine they will ever get over it, if it was me I would die if my mother was talking about something so serious, of course you know better than I”

    For your information my daughters are quite alright with me talking about what happened to them…just as they talk about what happened to them whenever the issue comes up. Why? Because they lived in the Arab world where rape, incest, pedophilia and every other sexual perversion is committed just like every other place on earth but its never talked about…and if it is by chance…the female is completely blamed for it. They talk about it and I talk about it because it needs to be talked about.

    For you to assume I just throw the story out there willy nilly without regard to my own daughters feelings is rather cold and heartless from your side. Maybe YOU would die…but then if it doesnt kill you it will only make you stronger. MY girls are tough and have no shame in what happened to them because I made sure they didnt…by talking about it.

    As for the rest of your comment…God doesnt answer the prayers of nonbelivers (referring to me) whether that is true or not is beside the point because I wasnt a nonbeliever in those days while performing with the utmost of belief..those prayers. But apparently he doesnt answer the prayers of believers either….or he does..or he answers the prayers of non believers…whatever he sees fit to do..after all…he IS god…right?

  47. Bella Vita…thank you for your comment…Im glad you found a better life. Just one reply to it…I am not a victim and I dont see myself as one. I relate what happened to me and to my kids…but I dont whine about it…dont wallow in it..and definitely dont expect pity or sympathy. I put it out there so that others might be encouraged to put their own experiences out there…talking about such things is very helpful. Believe me I know. Bottling it up inside just burns you up from the inside out. Belive me…I know that too.

  48. @ Coolred

    I am sorry to comment on your daughters, I didnt assume anything, just wanted to make sure u respect their privacy. As mothers, we kind of get used to them being part of us and therefore thinking their lives r always meshed w/ ours. I do anyway.
    Also u were not a victim of Sharia Law. Not u not the girls, had there been Sharia law in place and they came forward their father would have been made an example of and killed, I know sounds Talibanish, but that is Islam.
    The if man doesnt agree to divorce thing is BS and not Islamic, we have a right to divorce absoluletly. Your problem is the same as everyone elses in the Arab countries, that Islam isnt being practiced, but stupid, barbaric, unfair laws are.
    Islam doesnt allow what the ignorant tribal or whatever u want to call them laws do.

  49. @ Azur and Oby,

    yes Im serious. Not an Arab, but came from a mixed religion home. Jessica is my “american version” of my name cause I was tortured in school by a bunch of fully “white” children who made fun of my name, so its basically an alias.
    And yes I guess I am one of the only Muslims get into heaven club, because ALLAH s.w.t. said it, its not my choice and I have many people I care about that arnt Muslim and it hurts me to think what happens to them. I dont understand all of Allahs choices or why he made things the way he did but I accept them because if I didnt beleive in one word he said, I would be a disbeleiver. With that being said, I do find many things in Islam a challenge to follow.

  50. @ Strangeone

    sorry- I just typed out a long post, explaining what People of The Book meant and somehow deleted it.
    But yes you are incorrect.
    The Islam in the Quran and sunna is the only accepted way of life from the time of Muhammad peace be upon him, until the Day of Judgment, sometimes I wish it wasnt so, but am obliged to beleive it, and follow it to the best of my abilities. Im not taking any chances.
    The people who followed the Taurat at that time were Muslims, i.e. those who submitted to Allahs will.Same with Christians who were sent the Injil, which is not the Bible or Scriptures we have today. However those books dont exist today and Allah chose todays accepted relligion to be called Islam. I didnt choose this to be, but it is.
    Sorry to be quick and dry in my tone, but in such a hurry.

  51. @ Harry,

    Oh my goodness! We do seek heaven and joy in this life, the Noble Peace Prize is nice but not something we strive towards is all I meant. Heaven is our final goal, but I think most Muslims have a plan of having long lives, doing things such as raising their children, getting educated, family time etc..

    … building their societies and cultures, emphasis on seeking scientific and literary knowledge and education of women, girls, boys and men-
    Thank you for your kind wishes, I wish the same for you and yours.

    … such a fetish with seeking a heavenly paradise has given birth to moslem martyrs. HUGH?????????????????????? my only fetish is HARRY men, lol (ok just my harry man) real Italian pizza, children, oh and geat books. I finally have time to read War and Peace, with a long hospital stay on my hands-

    … These suicide bombers, who in order to gain instant gratification with Allah swt and to gain a quick ticket to islamic paradise, have been going on the mayhem……

    Im sorry I truly have no idea what you are talking about here and Im not so sure you do either. It is my understanding that suicide bombers are fighting back with the only weapons they have like in Palestine and Iraq, where there are major wars and they are way outnumbered. I am not a citizen of those places and dont keep up with it.

    …. to slaughter innocent kafir women and kafir children, including their fellow moselms who ever they consider as kafir.

    I can only assume you are exagerating here, as there is simply no such thing. Women and children are almost holy in Islam. I would challenge you to bring me one piece of evidence to your claims… but why bother, we are all busy. Just because someone says or writes something, doesnt make it true…. if in fact you have heard anything like that.

  52. Jessica..

    Clearly the quran says that all people of the book are OK…(as if we needed their OK)…anyway it also says there is no compulsion in religion…in other words please explain to me the section of the quran that states Allah created many different religions…and if he wanted he could have made them all Muslims but he didn’t. What about the command “you have your religion and I have mine?” If Allah is perfect and Mohammed made no mistakes how is it what you say is different than what the Quran says?

    Also, I know Muslims who believe in the quran that says that Allah did make room for other faiths and would disagree with you. Does that make them nonMuslims? By whose decree? CErtainly not Allah’s as it is in the good book.

  53. And yes I guess I am one of the only Muslims get into heaven club, because ALLAH s.w.t. said it, its not my choice and I have many people I care about that arnt Muslim and it hurts me to think what happens to them.

    The notion presented here that only moslems will go to paradise/heaven and the rest relegated to hellfire is a saudi wahabbi/salafi version/interpretation of koran. Many moslem reverts are saudi wahabi recruits to islam and their belief system is strange and not part of mainstream islam. Here are a couples of verses verses which clearly negate the wahabi version:

    2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Regarding the statement that “because ALLAH s.w.t. said it, its not my choice …”, obviously wahabis have’nt read the Koran with an open mind and deeply reflected on it. Allah swt (whatever swt means) also says in the koran:

    This is a Book full of Blessings that we have revealed unto you so people ponder upon its verses and men of intellect may reflect. (Quran 38:29)

  54. @Coolred, You are much admired for your strength no matter how much these salafi’s try twist your actions as turning your back on their fictional deity.

    @Jessica,

    “Islam doesnt allow what the ignorant tribal or whatever u want to call them laws do.”

    But Shariia is exactly that, “Tribal Laws from 1400 years in the past.” Think about it!!!!

  55. Thank you Harry…

    Yes I agree with you. I was wondering how Jessica and others who feel the same way can take what is in the Quran, supposedly supplied directly from God and manage to negate that. Unless of course Allah changed his mind later on and those verses about no compulsion in religion become null and void by different verses. But that wouldn’t make sense would it? Wouldn’t Allah have enough foresight to know what was coming and because he is perfect in every way anticipate that and put that commandment forth? Why would he need to change the commandment midstream?

    Unless of course it wasn’t actually Allah that said that but a human being (prophet Mohammed) who couldn’t see into the future and changed it as he needed to.

    So here is the conundrum…Either Allah said the first verse about no compulsion and someone changed it to suit their needs.

    Or Allah is a bit shortsighted in his thinking this whole Islam is for all mankind thing through and had to change his mind midstream.

    But he and the Quran are perfect…God knows all right? He doesn’t make mistakes.

    Or maybe a third option…someone is twisting or misinterpreting the verses into something Allah never meant.

    That is why I wondered how Jessica comes to understand it the way she does. It directly conflicts one of the points above.

  56. Good God Harry,

    Im not interested in defending Islam to you, I will say that the first verse you quoted was cancelled out according to what you call Salafi/ Wahhabi, which BTW I am not!

    THE END-

  57. OBY: Unless of course Allah changed his mind later on and those verses about no compulsion in religion become null and void by different verses. But that wouldn’t make sense would it?

    Yes, it would if one studies the history of corruption in koran …. primarily the hadees and prophet’s seera.
    Here is a link which explains it all …..

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Corruption_of_the_Qur%27an

  58. Jessica…if the court is called Sharia Court…and the men who run it are called judges of that Sharia Court…and if I can stand in front of a Sharia Court Judge and ask for a divorce and he ignores me and looks at my abusive pedophile incestuous husband and asks HIM if HE wants to divorce ME..and HE says no…and then judge says…well then go home and work it out…then YES…I was a victim of Sharia Law…that states the man has to agree to the divorce. I dont give a flying f**k what the Quran says about this because obviously there are NOOOOO Islamic/Arab nations that live anywhere close to that ideal (whatever that ideal is) BUT…what we have is a patriarchal make the man happy no matter at what cost to the women system that is what we have to live by…we have no choice (other than to not get caught up in it to begin with).

    So to sit there and say…thats not Sharia…thats not correct Islamic procedures etc..all I can say is..No Shit.

    btw…Just to correct your misunderstanding about how men are made “examples of” when they have done something horrendous like this. Even after divorce he would not leave us alone. He spread nasty rumors that I was the one that had committed adultery…that my daughters were promiscuous and my sons disrespectful to him etc etc blah blah blah. I called him and warned him to just leave us alone…he should be t hankful I let him walk away with his nether regions intact. He would not stop tho in his pursuit to make HIM look good and us look bad.

    So I made 1000 fliers detailing what a monster he was (with childrens permission of course) and handed them out to everyone he knew, the neighborhood he lived in, his work…everywhere. End result…he lost a few friends. That was it.

    Still has his job, most of his friends, his family all support him, and my kids have been blamed for what he did to them. My daughters were called vile names, my sons were harrassed in the streets, and at the end of the day…ALL of us collectively were found guilty of anything and everything and he was let off with a …”well the girls must have seduced him (at 3 years old) and men cant control themselves so what can you do” sort of mentality.

    Theres your example you were looking for. Arab/Muslim men can act in the most horrendous of ways towards women, children, and nonmuslims and nobody bats an eye…the only time people get upset is when they act out towards their own govts…as can be seen throughout the Arab/Muslim world now. Go figure.

    My conversation with you is done. A mind as closed as yours is happy in that darkness and nothing anyone says will change that.

  59. Moq…thank you.

  60. Good God Harry, Im not interested in defending Islam to you, I will say that the first verse you quoted was cancelled out according to what you call Salafi/ Wahhabi, which BTW I am not! THE END

    Yup, I knew it!! That that will be response I will get. Many moslems, when they run out of arguments, will give argument like “abrogation of verses” and “hadees you quoted is weak hadees”. Surprisingly, they will turn right around and quote the same abrogated/abrogating verse and “weak” hadees to bolster their argument.

    Simply, the concept of “abrogation” in the Koran is that Allah chose to reveal a verse in the Quran, that supersedes an earlier verse in the same koran. The central verse that deals with abrogation is 2:106:

    None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

    Now let us ask ourselves the question of how an eternal revelation of Allah could have such time-bound revelation in it. It seemed at odds with the nature of Allah – supposedly the all-knowing, all-wise, creator and sustainer of the universe; the eternal, self-existent one. Although the koran is said to be an eternal and universal scripture, wahabis/salafis find it to be time-bound. This gives them the necessary justification to pursue jihad and martyrdom to gain instant gratification and a quick trip to paradise.

    All this seems completely out of context and reason for the koran that claims to be for all time and all peoples. Also, depending on the wahabi/salafi scholar, there are different lists of abrogated verses as well as those that replace the abrogating verses.

    In terms of moslem jihad and terrorism going on throughout the world and here in the US, I got interested in learning more about this religion called
    “islam”, right after September 2001. I have learnt a lot and am learning a lot. What I have found and am finding is truly nightmarish and scary ….. May Allah Save Us All, Amen!!!!!

  61. @ coolred

    my point was that if Islam was being practiced, he wouldnt have gotten away with it, not sure why that wasnt clear.
    If a place says its a bar and then you go in and find it to be a grocery store, then you could not call it a bar could you? The same is true wih “Sharia Court” if you knew the reigion, you would go in the Sharia Court and then realize it wasnt in fact Islamic Sharia.
    I know as a fact that you wouldnt have been turned away had you reported this to the police, he would be in prison for life if not death by firing squad, instead you only want a divorce?!
    Who the hell cares what a judge in Bahrain says about divorce? As soon as he was in jail you could have left and gotten a divorce for papers sake in USA. If thats where you were legally married.

    Yes conversation over

  62. Jessica..you clearly have no idea how court systems are run in Arab countries…even if he were in jail…though a quick look in bahrain’s local papers will tell you exactly how uncaring the judicial system is towards rapists, pedophiles etc…then his family had more rights over my children than I did. This of course is why I did not turn him into the police..first of all…I knew nothing too serious would happen to him and we would be dragged through even more crap…secondly…it would have given his family time to take action against me. So…a quick divorce without all the drama was all I needed or wanted…so sue me…I had had enough up to that point and wanted nothing more to do with the Sharia Courts or that sorry excuse of a family.

    Who cares what a judge in Bahrain says? Are you serious with that question?

  63. Harry…

    Thanks for the link. I know about abrogation. I was trying to give Jessica a chance to explain how she managed to come to her conclusions if god and the quran are perfect. I think a quick run down of the possibilities I laid out shows that there is something missing in the whole story if for no other reason than not all Muslims believe the same thing. But I thank you for trying to help me.

    I have been gone from the blog for almost a month due to a near death in my family…I checked in on occasion and saw you had joined the group with an interesting website linked to your name, but I didn’t bookmark or read it in detail as I was so wrapped up in the other problem. Now that I am back I noticed the website is no longer linked to your name. Is there any way to get it? Can you post it here or should I go through Carol?

    Thanks…

  64. I noticed the website is no longer linked to your name. Is there any way to get it?

    No problemo, oby. Here it is:

    http://www.ProphetOfDoom.net

    May Allah swt save me from “His” wrath :)-

  65. Jessica,
    Thank you for explaining your beliefs.

    I was under the impression that it was okay to be a “person of the book” since most Muslims I had met told me it was okay for a woman “of the book” to marry a Muslim man. This was accepted as truth among the vast majority of them who were from a variety of places. However, most of them were also highly-educated, so I don’t know if this would have an impact on their interpretation of Islam. In fact, some of my friends could even give me an example of where a person “of the book” had married into their (Muslim) family.

    While I understand that certain religious books have changed over the years, I was under the impression this was also true in the time of the Prophet Mohammed, and yet the “people of the book” were still accepted then. I was under the impression that the reason behind Islam becoming a religion was to spread the “truth” that had been corrupted when previous scriptures had been changed from their original “correct” version. Why would it change from then to now if the general situation was the same?

    I have met Christians who believe that Christians are the only ones that will get to heaven, too. I am not sure what happens to us when we die, but I do believe in karma. I’m glad I’m not the one who has to make those kind of decisions.

  66. I dont understand all of Allahs choices or why he made things the way he did but I accept them because if I didnt beleive in one word he said, I would be a disbeleiver. With that being said, I do find many things in Islam a challenge to follow

    Regarding the above-referenced statement, obviously most moslems (especially wahabis/salafis) have’nt read the Koran with an open mind or deeply reflected on it. That’s why it will continue to be a challenge for such moslems to truly follow islam.

    Allah swt (whatever swt means) says in the koran:

    38:29 This is a Book full of Blessings that we have revealed unto you so people ponder upon its verses and men of intellect may reflect.

    Many modern contemporary liberal thinkers such as Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd of Egypt, Abdullahi Ahmed al-Naim of Sudan, Mohammed Shahrour of Syria, and Amina Wadud of USA – to mention but a few – vehemently argue that present day moslems should construct their own understanding of the koran in conformity with modern, secular humanistic values. They look upon the koran as “historically shaped and culturally conditioned”.

    Thus, some passages, particularly those related to jihad and war and martyrdom, the treatment of women and the punishment of criminals are, they rightly claim, no longer suitable for modern living and therefore have to be reinterpreted or abandoned altogether. According to them, there is no single true, absolute interpretation. Each generation and every one has the right to derive from the koran the meanings which are “historically shaped and culturally conditioned”.

    Now these are the real modern scholars of islam and they are a breath of fresh air and on the right path. Unless wahabis/salafis have declared them KAFIRS and issue a death fatwa on their heads if they haven’t already!

    Allah swt also says in various places in the koran:

    44:58 Verily, We have made this (Quran) easy, in your tongue, in order that they may give heed.

    2:269 But none will grasp the message except the men of intellect.

    8:22 Surely the worst of animals in Allah’s sight are the deaf, the dumb who do not use their brains.

    67:10 They will say: Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!

    Unfortunately, it is usually thought and professed that this book is only for the scholars to understand, and for them to interpret and apply it to the fields of Islamic knowledge. However, this is clearly in conflict with the koran which stresses so much upon its reader to understand it.

    The first addressees of koran were Arabs and they are being told that the koran is in their own language for them to be able to understand it 44.58. Koran did not limit its contents to Prophet Mohammad, rather addressed the Believers, the Jews, the Christians and the Pagans at the time of Mohammad directly.

    The method of reciting the koran practiced today – where a student recites koran completely multiple times over without understanding a single word – is the exact opposite of how it should actually be studied! When a moslem student learns Arabic, he is taught the pronunciation of Arabic letter and words without the meaning such that he is not able to understand his reading. That’s why these uneducated jihadis depend upon their wahabi shaykhs and imams for interpretation of koran. Interestingly, this way of learning a language is reserved for no other language in the world but for koranic Arabic!

    As a non-moslem (atheist) who has been studying islam since 9/11, I have come to appreciate that the koran really does reason with arguments and if one’s mind is not applied in the study of this Book, then the benefit will be very limited. In general, the koran has used reasoning and has cited arguments in support of its claims whenever it has urged man to accept a belief.

    It warns those who do not apply the faculty of their reasoning and become slaves to emotions like hate and prejudice. For example, Allah gets real nasty about those moslems who do not use their intellect in the study of the Book and are addressed as deaf and dumb (8:22). Also, Allah gets real angry at such moslems and has promised to throw them into Hellfire (67:10).

  67. @coolred,

    What you experienced is horrible. I can’t imagine how much that hurt you as a mother. May Allah give your girls the strength to carry on and succeed with everything in life. I have daughters of my own and Allah help me, if anyone were to ever touch them…hell hath no fury!

    I hope you don’t mind me asking you a few questions:

    -Why was the police not involved in your case?
    -Why was your husband not arrested?
    -If everyone in the community knew about the crime (after your flyers) why wasn’t something done to prosecute him?
    -How could you have lost your children to your in-laws?
    -Do you think what you experienced is what pushed you to leave Islam? (Had your ex not harmed your girls, would you have still remained Muslim?)

  68. As for me, I would love to say that my faith is always rock solid but it isn’t. I have some days when I feel very close to Allah and other days when I feel very far. It’s a bit of a roller coaster I guess.

    I do know that praying 5x a day does help me to remember Allah and actually worship him as opposed to just asking him for things.

    When do I need him the most? I suppose when I’ve hit rock bottom and feel fed up with my lot in life. I suppose that’s when my prayers would be most earnest. I recognize I need his guidance at all times but I also recognize the frustration in not having my prayers answered. I know this life isn’t meant to be perfect and we’re not meant to have everything we want but there are certain times when I feel angry that a particular prayer hasn’t been answered especially if I am beseeching Allah to protect my loved ones. So in this regard I can somewhat relate to Coolred.

    Today, I had a sudden chest pain that took my breath away. I felt a tightness in my chest and throat and could not catch my breath. I swear I thought I was going to die. I sat down for a bit and the feeling subsided after about 10 minutes. During the pain and afterward I began to recite the Shahadah. I also began to think of what a mess my house was in and began to tidy up! I then supplicated to Allah that he take me and my children during an act of obedience as opposed to an act of sinfulness.

    So even though I may not be the best Muslim and may have weak faith at times I believe I will always need him, whether I’m fighting fit or poorly, happy or sad.

  69. I’m sorry I truly have no idea what you are talking about here and Im not so sure you do either. It is my understanding that suicide bombers are fighting back with the only weapons they have like in Palestine and Iraq, where there are major wars and they are way outnumbered. I am not a citizen of those places and dont keep up with it …. I can only assume you are exagerating here, as there is simply no such thing. Women and children are almost holy in Islam. I would challenge you to bring me one piece of evidence to your claims… but why bother, we are all busy. Just because someone says or writes something, doesnt make it true…. if in fact you have heard anything like that.

    In reference to the above-referenced statement by the poster that “you are exaggerating here, as there is simply no such thing. Women and children are almost holy in Islam.”, I would like to first point out that suicide bombers are actually known in islam as shaheeds or fedaayeen; or martyrs in english. The point of the martydom bomber isn’t suicide. It is to kill infidels. Pure and simple. An infidel can be any unbeliever, including their own fellow moslems.

    Islam’s Latest Contributions to Peace – List of Islamic Terror Attacks from the first part of 2011

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2011.htm

    Martyrdom is not just permitted by Prophet Mohammed but encouraged with liberal promises of heavenly reward, including food and sex, in both Koran and Hadees. A suicide bombing is really an act of homicide. When moslems in the West pretend that Islam is against such practices by pointing to the hadith that oppose killing oneself, such as Bukhari (23:446), they are being disingenuous.

    Moslems and their families in the banana islamic republics, who are less concerned about public relations, celebrate and revere suicide bombers, knowing that martyrdom in battle is glorified by their religion. Remember Arafat and Sodom Hussein use to send monies to the families of martyrs.

    Another point is that Allah/Mohammad were quite shrewd in making suicide a crime while at the same time painting paradise in the most prolifically decadent terms – an endless orgy of sex, food, and aesthetic comfort. The frustration of the young believer, who is convinced that such eternal gratification lies just on the other side of death, but is forbidden from attaining it directly by his own hand, therefore comes to think of martyrdom as a relief – particularly if he is deprived of these comforts in life. Suicide/Martydom attacks are invariably encouraged by leaders of religious and civic factions within the Islamic community; after their deaths, suicide bombers are almost always celebrated as heroes. Frankly, it’s a wonder that suicide bombings aren’t even more common than they are!

    According to 2008 Pentagon briefing paper titled, “Motivations of Muslim Suicide Bombers”, suicide in defense of Islam is permitted, and the Islamic suicide bomber is, in the main, a rational actor. Pentagon intelligence analysts have reached a wholly different conclusion after studying Islamic scripture and the backgrounds of suicide terrorists. They’ve found that most Muslim suicide bombers are in fact students of the koran who are motivated by its violent commands – making them, as strange as it sounds to the West, “rational actors” on the Islamic stage.

    In Islam, it is not how one lives one’s life that guarantees spiritual salvation, but how one dies, according to the briefings. There are great advantages to becoming a martyr. Dying while fighting the infidels in the cause of Allah reserves a special place and honor in Paradise. And it earns special favor with Allah.

    The briefing – produced by a little-known Pentagon intelligence unit called the Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA – cites a number of passages from the Koran dealing with jihad, or “holy” warfare, martyrdom and Paradise, where “beautiful mansions” and “maidens” await martyr heroes. In preparation for attacks, suicide terrorists typically recite passages from six surahs, or chapters, of the Koran: Baqura (Surah 2), Al Imran (3), Anfal (8), Tawba (9), Rahman (55) and Asr (103).

    According to the Pentagon briefing, suicide for Allah is a ‘win-win’. “His actions provide a win-win scenario for himself, his family, his faith and his God,” the document explains. “The bomber secures salvation and the pleasures of Paradise. He earns a degree of financial security and a place for his family in Paradise. He defends his faith and takes his place in a long line of martyrs to be memorialized as a valorous fighter. “And finally, because of the manner of his death, he is assured that he will find favor with Allah,” the briefing adds. “Against these considerations, the selfless sacrifice by the individual Muslim to destroy Islam’s enemies becomes a suitable, feasible and acceptable course of action.”

    The 9/11 hijackers and the London bombers made martyrdom videos. In their last testaments, they recite the koran while talking of their “love of death” and “sacrificing life for Allah.” Seven martyrdom videotapes also were recovered by British authorities in the foiled transatlantic sky terror plot.

    Before the 9/11 attacks, the hijackers shaved and doused themselves with flower water in preparation for their weddings with the beautiful virgins in Paradise. “Know that the women of Paradise are waiting, calling out ‘Come hither, friend of Allah,'” according to a four-page letter circulated among them titled “THE LAST NIGHT.” “They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing.”

    But are the virgins scriptural or apocryphal? French documentarian Pierre Rehov, who interviewed the families of suicide bombers and would-be bombers in an attempt to find out why they do it, says it’s not a myth or fantasy of heretics. He says there’s no doubt the koran “promises virgins” to moslem men who die while fighting infidels in jihad, and it’s a key motivating factor behind suicide terrorism. “It’s obviously connected to religion,” said Rehov, who features his interviews with moslems in a 2008 released film, “Suicide Killers.” “They really believe they are going to get the virgins.” He says would-be moslem suicide bombers he’s interviewed have shown him passages in the Koran “in which it’s absolutely written that they’re going to get the girls in the afterlife.”

    Moslem clerics do not disavow the virgins-for-martyrs reward as a perverted interpretation of the Koran. And the founder of an allegedly mainstream Moslem group in Washington – the Council on American-Islamic Relations – also has given his blessing to suicide bombings. Addressing a youth session at the 1999 Islamic Association for Palestine’s annual convention in Chicago, CAIR founder Omar Ahmad praised suicide bombers who “kill themselves for Islam,” according to a transcript provided by terror expert Steve Emerson’s Terrorism Investigative Project. “Fighting for freedom, fighting for Islam, that is not suicide,” Ahmad asserted. “They kill themselves for Islam.”

    Apologize for the long rant :)-

  70. Harry,

    Apparently you have spent alot of time researching suicide bombers, I cant imagine why but I will give you a thumbs up at finding your information. I do claim ignorance on this subject. As far as the to you your religion, and to me mine… that is a Sura called the Disbelievers and basically what we r to say to those who would try t sway us away from Islam.
    The no compulsion in religion is another verse- its meaning- we cant force the belief on anyone, it is up to them, however in a true Islamic society we could force hijab and no drinking, fornication in public etc, which is for the benefit of the society at whole, whether non beleivers know it or not, it is for their benefit also.

  71. Strange One,

    According to scholars a Muslim man could marry a woman from ‘people of the book’ meaning a Christian or Jewess if they were chaste, meaning never took boyfriends or were virgins if never before married. Very rare to find today with so much sexual promiscuity.
    However- other scholars say it is no longer halal because there is a good chance that any children of such a union wouldnt be raised Muslim. Until recently (how many generations ago) men were the head of the household, pretty much all over the world, and his word was law, his religion was followed by the children. Not so today and in fact many times in western society the father would be cast out of the childrens life in case of divorce and they wouldnt be raised under Islam. Also the woman has to be an abiding Christian, not one who simply believes Jesus is son of God, she must follow rules of her religion. I know in Christianity a man must be monogamous so I cant understand why a Christian woman would ever want to marry a Muslim man who may be polygamous. I am the product of such a marriage, which until recently was still very comon in our part of the world (we r caucasion, not as in white, but from the Caucus Mountanious regions of Georgia, Chechyna, Armenia etc). Many Muslim men would marry a Christian woman back in the day, but in our culture the woman follows the man in everything anyway, so there was no chance of us being raised Christian. My mother of course was a virgin on her wedding day, never dated, never ate pork or drank, etc. And she covered herself properly, I dont mean “modestly” but with a veil which was/is common in that part of the world, even for non Muslims. Her greatest fear was always he would take another wife and he never has. My mother also has never converted, btw she is a Unitarian Christian and does not beleive Jesus to be son of God. She doesnt go to church out of respect for my father (he never asked her to do so) but prays quietly in her room. Recently she had decided to convert (after 40 yrs of marriage) but then said she was too old, which really means she wasnt convinced of it, and that is what is meant by No compulsion in religion, exactly. She follows the rules of Islam, but doesnt beleive in them, as everyone would if there was a real Islamic state.

    Anyway there are conditions to it (marrying a non believing woman) today and most scholars encourage the marriage of Muslims between each other because 1) the children to come and 2) there r so many unmarried Muslim women who need marriage.

  72. Jessica, so you admit you don’t read, and don’t know anything, then why the hell do you think there is anything of value in swamping a blog with your non-informed wahhabi based opinions?

    Everything you say here is exactly what the Wahhabbis teach, including the bidah-bit about changing the Quran’s words about marrying people ”from the book”.
    And what about those children choosing not to be Muslim? There’s no compulsion in religion you said? You need some logic classes!
    Oh, no, you don’t read or learn, you already know everything.

    Actually it’s typical for people who ahve no knowledge to be stuck up and over-estimate themselves.
    It’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect:
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to appreciate their mistakes. The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is,

  73. Justme, (or Lilly as you previously called yourself) Your questions seem weird for somebody who claims to know how sharia works.

    -Why was the police not involved in your case?
    A mans word is higher than a woman’s word, so if it’s a man against a woman the man always wins. In sharia court a man’s word counts twice for that of a woman under Islam.

    -Why was your husband not arrested?
    A mans word is higher than a woman’s word, so if it’s a man against a woman the man always wins. In sharia court a man’s word counts twice for that of a woman under Islam.

    -If everyone in the community knew about the crime (after your flyers) why wasn’t something done to prosecute him?
    1-As in Sharia court, in Muslim society a mans word is higher than a woman’s word, so if it’s a man against a woman the man always wins. A man’s word counts twice for that of a woman under Islam.

    So the problems a woman or child has to contend with if she has been raped are:
    1- In Sharia court, and in Muslim society, a mans word is higher than a woman’s word, so if it’s a man against a woman the man always wins. A man’s word counts twice for that of a woman under Islam.
    2- The only way you could convince a person of jina is:
    a- the criminal admits it, (he did not)
    b- Four witnesses (four men or eight women) have seen the actual act.
    c- If the girls claims ”he did that to me”. But then she’s the one who admits to zina and she will be the only one whose punished for it.
    So the problem is Sharia courts are set up against the victims from the start.

    -How could you have lost your children to your in-laws?

    Because a man and his family has better rights to the children then the mother in Sharia. Children are property of the man and his family. Only if they do not want them the mother can have them.

    So this was done to Coolred and her children all in accordance to Islam and Sharia.
    Sharia does give women their rights. These are the rights the women (and children) in Islam have.

  74. Actually it’s typical for people who have no knowledge to be stuck up and over-estimate themselves. It’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect

    Well said, Aafke!!!!

  75. Jessica…

    then “there is no compulsion in religion” doesn’t really exist. Your mom has to stay in her room to pray and she is not allowed to express her faith in any way? How can that be no compulsion in religion..sounds a LOT like compulsion to me…no one is standing over her to make sure she is saying Muslim prayers it’s true, but it sounds as if in every way she is restricted. Can she go to her own church? Can she celebrate Christmas? Can she even talk about these things? If not “out of respect” then she is being restricted by “compulsion”. Your father freely practices his faith…for me no matter how you slice it, she says what she wants in her head in terms of prayer but in every other way she is required to behave in a mulsim way…that is the very definition of compulsion….

  76. @Jessica,

    Good that your mother has the freedom to practise her faith as she sees fit. Complusions come in various forms, it’s hard to guard against implicit social .spousal pressure , but the key is she is happy.

    however i don’t understand why she would not go to church as a mark of respect for your father. One goes to church,templ, mosque as a mark of respect for GOD, man never trumps GOD , no matter how great a man he may be . I respect my husband nad his religion and his choices however my respect for god ( if i beleive in one) is a tad bit higher.
    I don’t subscribe to the belief that one must go to a church to pray or for those prayers to be heard. however I’m also of the belief that a church/temple/mosque is a place concentrated with positive vibes and energy and i always feel uplifted,lighthearted and at peace when i go to one of them… somehow i cannot see any holy book asking you to put a spouse over god , but hey i may be wrong…

  77. … As far as the to you your religion, and to me mine… that is a Sura called the Disbelievers and basically what we r to say to those who would try t sway us away from Islam.

    Jessica, I believe you have completely misunderstood my potings. I was in no way trying to convert any one, either overtly or covertly, to any belief system or religion. My main purpose, in all my postings, was to “educate” folks of all beliefs and creeds about islam … or as moslems would like everyone to believe … the “religion of peace”.

    ….. however in a true Islamic society we could force hijab and no drinking, fornication in public etc, which is for the benefit of the society at whole, whether non beleivers know it or not, it is for their benefit also.

    So in a true islamic society, you would force non-moslems to wear hijab, etc. since, as you say, it “is for the benefit of the society at whole, whether non beleivers know it or not, it is for their benefit also”.
    In saudi arabia, for example, non-believing women are forced to wear hijab, the dreaded abaya, nikab and veil.

    So whatever happened to your “there is no compulsion in religion” bit????

    Also, point out to me one islamic banana republic which is a “true” islamic society i.e. fully complies with koran, hadees, prophet’s seera, etc. Except perhaps during the times of prophet and the “rightly
    guided” first four caliphs, there has never been a true islamic society. Caliphs and kings who followed were more interested in women and music and dancing and wine and maintaining vast supply of harems/concubines, subjugating the non-believers
    worldwide through conquests, rapes, plunders and perpetually keeping these kafirs in a state of dhimmitude. And the so-called golden age of islam is a farce …. all of the contributions to science, medicine and literature ….. were by the kafirs who were forced to convert to islam and forced to arabacize their names. Don’t post the link … 1001 inventions by moslems …. since all those are former kafirs who were forced to convert to islam. That’s the biggest con job that moslems have perpetuated.

    I believe, Jesse, that you are suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect, which Aafke pointed out in her recent posting. May Allah swt point you out in the right direction!

  78. Aafke

    u r hilarious, if it isnt obvious ENGLISH IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, YET i DO PRETTY WELL IN IT. WHO TOLD YOU i DONT READ, lol I speak 6 languages fluently, another 4 so so and read and write 6, I wont tell you how foolish your assumptions are. And I have 2 degrees.
    SO PISS OFF

  79. Harry, I have heard mother of suicide murderers say with composure that their sons were happy now, with the ”black eyed”. This is not a myth, these people truly believe men get to have endless sex-orgies with regenerating virgins.

    Jessica, in a true Islamic society we could force hijab and no drinking, fornication in public etc, which is for the benefit of the society at whole, whether non beleivers know it or not, it is for their benefit also.

    Thank you but I really like to refuse this ”favor”.
    I will refrain from commenting on the ”fornication in public” because that doesn’t happen anywhere, must be another one of those muslim men’s wet dreams, like decades of sex orgies in the heavenly brothel.

    So ”hijab is for the benefit everybody’ , another comment which is already proven wrong by what we observe in the world today, the more women are forced to cover the more sex-obsessed the men become, the more parts of a woman are designated as genitals, the more oppression, the less rights they have, the more women are objectified as sexual objects, the more men become sex-mad animals.

    Thank you but I prefer to live as a full human being.

    I don’t see why Muslims should be bothered with other people drinking alcohol. It’s really sick.

    But thank you for showing once again that the goal of Muslims like you is aggressive: total control and suppression, a total lack of personal freedom. people like you are proving that we should put Islam apart from other religions, that we should put restrictions on Islam and Muslims which other religions do not warrant.
    Jessica it is people like you who have convinced me that Islam is a religion of aggression and suppression, that it should be kept out of our societies, that is is inherently evil.

    I believe in freedom of, and from, religion. I believe that every individual has the right to follow their chosen religion. I believe that every religion should have the freedom to exist.
    I also believe that when a group, whether religious or political, tries to enforce oppressive, restrictive, anti-human rights and freedom dogma on others against their will they should be fought. They have lost their rights to freedom of practicing religion or politics because they refuse others the right to be free individuals.

    The more I learn of Islam, the more I see the utter refusal of Muslims to protest against crimes done in the name of Islam, and the more Muslims I hear/read expressing their thoughts and feelings about those who do not share belief in their particular myths, superstitions and gods, the more I am convinced that we should make sure Islam will not ever get any chance to make any headway in our societies and politics.

  80. OBY AND RADHA,

    I explained that my mother does that out of what she feels is respectful, my father never asked her to. And Im sure no book asks her to.
    Its non of your business except what I have chosen to say publicly about my mother, she isnt here to defend herself. You be carefu;l when talking about peoples mothers! Noone said she put God before Dad by choosing to pray in her room!

  81. HARRY

  82. Jessica, in your own words you claimed ignorance. If you are ignorant, which your comments indeed bear out, then you should not comment.

  83. Harry

    u have no business calling me Jesse, that is not my name nor have I ever called myself that. That is a male name. I use Jessica because it is close to my original name, got that?

  84. Harry…

    I goggled the 1001 Muslim inventions…evidently there are even traveling exhibits for it. But I need to ask (only because I really like to be sure something is true) where did you or where can I find info on the the fact that these folks who made the inventions were at one time nonmuslims. I have heard that before, but after three pages on google nothing that talks about how they were forced to convert. Is there a reliable secular source (even better muslim one) that states this? Thanks

  85. Jessica…

    No one meant disrespect…but if you don’t want you family in the mix, don’t offer them up. So many muslims do this as proof of something and then get pissed when people follow up on the comment. If you don’t want anyone thinking about your parents don’t talk about them.

  86. BTW…I have mentioned my husband on here and a few people have responded to the comments…one a Muslim saying that they, in essence, thought my husband was a terrible father (based on their assumptions.) but guess what? I didn’t get pissed off or threaten anyone as you have. I answered them calmly. I put it out there and I had to own the consequences of doing so. (ie: the questions that followed.)

  87. @Jessica,

    I was actually being nice and complimentary that your mom has the freedom she so deserves 🙂

    doesn’t matter,everyone has touchy points , yours seems to be this . I apologize.

    since i’m bored and stuck at home 🙂 lets go thru a few more of your points.

    “Not so today and in fact many times in western society the father would be cast out of the childrens life in case of divorce and they wouldnt be raised under Islam”

    and this is bad how? giving kids the freedom to choose is bad? and why on earth would someone cast a father out ? divorce in these parts of the world means dad’s still can claim custody, spend their few hrs a week imparting islamic knowledge 🙂

    “follows the rules of Islam, but doesnt beleive in them, as everyone would if there was a real Islamic state ”

    what does this mean, you’d rather everyone fake being Muslim ?makes me scared of a muslim state …
    yet i might survive , I don’t eat meat – any kind let alone pork, I don’t drink, I’m covered quite decently ( too much per my teen daughter) . no dating, orgies either – ( he snapped me up before i could even look at the field) , yet I do not wish to convert or believe in the tenents of islam…
    so per your logic I’m A OK..

    ” however in a true Islamic society we could force hijab and no drinking, fornication in public etc, which is for the benefit of the society at whole”

    – A glass of red wine once in a while is actually good for the heart. I don’t think i would like hijab to be forced on me, even if it is in the best interest of society.. i have yet to see anyone fornicating in public — and i’m no young spring chicken..so we’ll give that one a pass.
    you actually make me wary of being in and around a true islamic society , fortunately for me, i have close contact with normal muslim who favor the clean, goodness to all, minding my own business approach to islam.

    I understand that english may not be your language, but i’ve been on this planet enough to get the vibes.. good luck to you and hopefully you’ll get to live your life in your choice of islamic society.

  88. Found this truly inspiring blogpost today. Well worth the read people. Especially you Jessica. Enjoy. 🙂

    http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html?cid=87841692

  89. Just Me…Aafke pretty much answered your questions in a fairly basic straight forward manner except for the last one…did my husbands actions lead me to leave Islam?

    Not really, he was an ass since I married him. A hypocritical abusive ass the entire time pretty much…and during that time I found Islam (tho not by anything he or his family practiced) and it was a great source of solace to me at the time. (many years) Eventually tho what little I knew wasnt enough and I went searching for more (the advent of the internet was quite a boon to Bahrain as they have very little in the way of Islamic literature in English) and started getting more questions than answers. The deeper I delved into the history and literature of Islam’s past the more my mind argued against my heart that this couldnt be the Islam that I had converted too…but the evidence is overwhelming. And I might add the most damning evidence comes from Arab/Muslims themselves that documented early Islamic history as it was taking place etc.

    I re-read the Quran over and over again without the rose colored glasses I had so proudly worn before and found answers that I could not swallow and digest without a whole lot of self crimination.

    By the time my husband was exposed I had already set foot on the path to leaving Islam behind. It wasnt for me anymore. Might be for others, but not me. I do not disparage it, lie about it, or ignore it simply because I dont practice it anymore. I happen to know more about it than a great many Muslims do obviously and so still talk about it and correct misinformation about it (of which there is a lot on both sides-muslim/non muslim) when I feel the need too. I dont always feel the need too because people are not easily convinced that they are mislead or wrong…they have to discover that for themselves to be effective.

    I use to be the first to defend Islam…could cite sources and ayats that would make your head spin and believed every single word of it…now I still do it but just to correct people’s misunderstandings etc. Muslims/Arabs try to claim I hate Muslims and Arabs now. I dont. Never have. I just dont believe in Islam anymore. I have gone to the dark side in their eyes…oh well.

    It’s more peaceful over here.

    Of course now Arabs/Muslims try to accuse me of being ignorant or biased or close minded in my opinions etc…when in fact Im not asking anyone to accept my opinions about Islam but to read and discover the truth for themselves. As i said…you cant convince anyone of anything…they have to learn for themselves for it to be effective.

    So no, my ex’s actions did not lead me from Islam…just as they never lead me too it. But it was rather the proverbial straw on the camel’s back that tipped me over…that and a final conversation I had with god…he didnt hold up his end of it too well Im sorry to say.

    In every relationship there are two parties involved (polygamy aside 😉 ) and one will always give more and receive less than they give. That person will always be the one let down and left with a broken heart.

    I’m the one with a broken heart. I was let down. Someone else can come along and say Ive got it all wrong…but you are not me and I am not you. If you believe in Islam than good for you. I do not and that’s good for me too.

  90. Coolred, thank you for sharing that link, Very good post. Made me realize that I should be angry, and that that anger is an important tool.
    Because I am scared too…
    When I see religion coming at me:

  91. Islamic Inventions? How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World

    These past few years have seen, especially since 9/11, many inventions being falsely claimed by moslems and attributed to Islamic inventors, which in fact either existed in pre-Islamic eras, were invented by other cultures, or both. Such claims have even been forced upon the unsuspecting public in exhibits and nationwide tours around the world.

    To augment these “momentous festivities”, an article titled “How Islamic inventors changed the world” written by Paul Vallely was published in The Independent (UK) on the 11th of March 2006. This shameless piece of propaganda has received much praise from moslems obviously and is still being widely circulated on Islamic websites, forums, blogs, and is even used as a source (to validate false claims of Islamic inventions) in over twenty separate articles on Wikipedia.

    This article boldly opened with the following statement: “From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life”. Paul Vallely nominated 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them.”

    The article … in the link below …. lists and examines all twenty of these “Islamic inventors/inventions that changed the world” and in doing so, it will expose the lengths some moslems and their paid apologists will sink to in order to appease themselves and others.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Inventions%3F_How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World

  92. I have confirmed that ”Lilly” and ”Justme” use the same IP.
    Shadow accounts will not be allowed.
    Keep to one persona if you don’t want to get blocked from this forum.
    Thank you.

    Moderator #2

  93. NOSTALGIA OF ISLAMIC GOLDEN AGE VS
    HISTORY OF SCIENCE

    When moslems or Islamists brag about “Islamic Golden Age” they only name some moslem-born scientists/philosophers; but they completely forget to name any non-Muslim luminaries of medieval period living in dhimmitude in the moslem controlled lands.

    The following are a few to name amongst the non-moslem scientists and philosophers such as:

    Albategnius (al-Battani, 853–929) –who belonged to the star-worshipping Sabian sect of Northern Mesopotamia, alchemist Stephanus of Alexandria (d. 641 CE), Christian monk of Syria named Morieus Romanus, Ibn Butlan (d. 1066) and Ibn Tilmid (d. 1065) of Baghdad; Gregorius Barhebreus (d. 1286) (aka Abul Faraj), and Ibn Ali Isa (d. 1290).

    According to the American thinker, Dr. Jonathan David Carson, “The ‘Islamic scholars’ who translated ‘ancient Greece’s natural philosophy’ were a curious group of Muslims, since all or almost all of the translators from Greek to Arabic were Christians or Jews.”

    Besides, all the ancient luminaries like Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Buddha, Confucius, Euclid, Epicurus, Democritus, Lucretius and Aristarchus et al. were born long before Prophet Muhammad and his Islam but they all had direct and profound influence in laying the foundation of today’s world of science, education, politics, human rights and justice.

    The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary islamists and their apologists. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of the islamic civilization beyond what the facts support.

    The noble savage myth is a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied about concerning the supposed “golden age” of Islamic civilization during what we know as the Middle Ages.

    The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam’s apologists to save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove, as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.

    Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that their goal is “to recover for postmodernity that lost medieval Judeo-Islamic trading, social and cultural world, its high point pre-1492 Moorish Spain, which permitted and relished a plurality, a convivencia, of religions and cultures, Christian, Jewish and Moslem; which prized an historic internationality of space along with the valuing of particular cities; which was inclusive and cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan here meaning an ease with different cultures: still so rare and threatened a value in the new millennium as in centuries past.”

    In other words, a fairy tale designed to create the illusion that multiculturalism has valid historical precedents that prove it can work.

    The so-called islamic golden age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement, it is claimed by moslems. A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them “Moslems” either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

    The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a convincing “Islamic” golden age is that whatever flourished, did so not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.

    As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited “the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India.” The decimal numbers were thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as “Arabic” numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.

    Following are a few of the links which discuss the myth of islamic golden age:

    http://www.getreligion.org/2010/12/reinventing-islams-golden-age/

    http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Nostalgia-of-Islamic-Golden-Age.htm

    The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
    http://europenews.dk/en/node/1385

  94. Harry…

    thank you so much for your links…I will read them all tonight. should be very interesting!!!Thanks again.

  95. AzurEyes126, on April 3, 2011 at 7:14 am said:
    I tend to meet some very unusual people myself, with very differing beliefs, but they rarely mesh well, particularly regarding religious beliefs. It seems people tend to concentrate more on their differences than on their similarities.

    Hi, I was in exactly the same dilemma until a few years ago. Then a fellow atheist friend told me about Unitarian Universalists which have locations throughout the US and in many cities. I really enjoy and look forward to their weekly meetings. I have met people of various backgrounds, including many moslems.

    Diverse beliefs about the existence or non-existence of a higher power are welcomed. Unitarian Universalists may be Atheists, Humanists, Christians, Jews, Moslems, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, or identify with other theological and philosophical traditions.

    Unitarian Universalists have seven basic principles that they affirm and promote:

    * The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

    * Justice, equity and compassion in human
    relations;

    * Acceptance of one another and
    encouragement to spiritual growth;

    * A free and responsible search for truth and
    meaning;

    * The right of conscience and the use of the
    democratic process within their communities
    and in society at large;

    * The goal of world community with peace, liberty,
    and justice for all;

    * Respect for the interdependent web of all
    existence of which we are a part.

    If anyone is interested, here is the link:

    http://www.uua.org/

  96. Call me crazy, I am indeed ignorant of what goes on inside of a suicide bombers head, lol.

    Sick to not allow drinking in public? Gee tell that to all the “Mothers Against Drunk Driving”

    I referred to my parents as much as I wanted too, noone has the right to make assumptions other than what I said, but Harry, Oby, Coolred, and Aafke have all made ridiculous assumptions about me and mine.

    Lets see, Im a convert, uneducated, threaten people, and my mother basically worships my father, oh right and a wahhabi! Yet I have said no such thing and am no such thing. Now I will go back to real life, its been fun while I was on bedrest…. you guys are a strange cruel bunch, I’ll step away and you nuts will find someone else to try to slam in every direction….. pathetic.

  97. Jessica…I said nothing about you at all…just replied to ur comments. I went back up and read all mine directed at you and did not make any assumptions that you did not portray in your comments…example..your ignorance of Sharia Courts etc. Just set you straingt. Touchy much?

  98. Jessica…

    First I hope that your recovery is speedy.

    Secondly you might want to go back and read your post…you said things about your mom that naturally leads people to wonder…you said she is unitarian Christian yet follows the rules of Islam even though she doesn’t believe. You didn’t say she follows her own religion which she believes in to some degree. fine and dandy if it works for everyone, that is the best case scenario. If you feel I was disrespectful to your mom that is your perception. I never said a bad thing about her. For all I know she is a great lady. The only thing that I said is it doesn’t seem that, by what you said, that your mom is free from the effects of compulsion.

  99. Hi Jessica,

    The only thing I am guilty of is that I unintentionally mistyped your name as “Jesse”, in one of my postings. However unintended, I am truly sorry and apologize for that ….

    Regards,

    Harry

  100. I refuse to feel sorry for you Jessica, I have have seen the ”I am being treated so badly”-card being pulled out here too often whenever somebody is taken to account for their bad behavior here.

    You are the one who is cruel, you denied the real sufferings of a fellow woman you read here by ignoring it and just going on about ”how great Islam is”. You denied the cruelty of sharia law based on some Utopian assumption about Islam while Sharia is cruel to women. So I can only conclude you haven’t read anything about it, because if you read newspapers and the internet you would know about the cruelty inflicted upon women by Sharia law.
    if you had studied sharia itself you would know that women are not treated seriously in sharia courts. If you had known about sharia and what it does you would know that whenever you apply sharia the women loose.
    Sharia is literally tribal law and you don’t know that????

    Yes, you do sound like a Wahhabi, you may not have consciously trained as a Wahhabi, but your education was being carried by the Wahhabis, it is supported in your country by the wahhabis and you sound exactly like a Wahhabi.

    All these countries which were not traditionally Muslim have been taken over by the Wahhabis, as soon as Russia pulled out the Wahhabis took over. Saudi pours money into the religious indoctrination of your country. Another sign that you don’t read if you don’t know that.

    You came here throwing your Wahhabi Utopian arguments around, (like we haven’t heard them before), and now you dare to accuse us we make assumptions?

    You come here and tell us gloatingly that as soon as we live under Islamic law women will be forced against their will into hijab. That people will not be allowed to enjoy a glass of wine, or use it for cooking anymore, against their will again.
    Oh and there is a huge difference between enjoying a glass of alcoholic beverage from timee to time and being a blind drunk. But you are apparently too ignorant to see that.
    And you may have forgotten that in Jannah everybody drinks rivers of wine?

    And I have lived all over ”The Wicked West” but nor I, nor anybody I know, has ever seen ”public fornication”, but then you must be too ignorant to know that that is just a fairy tale invented by the Wahhabis I conclude.

    You want to come in here and talk about your nasty philosophy, exhibit your Wahhabi imperialist dreams of suppression of non-muslims, and now you are all hurt that people don’t like it? We have read your comments a hundred times before from other people, we didn’t like them then and we don’t like them now.

    And I really don’t feel sorry for anybody who comes in here, ignores cruelty, expresses her satisfaction about a future when all non-muslims will be oppressed and when she isn’t hailed as the second coming starts whining about how offended she is. How she is the one who is so badly treated.
    Get real!
    This is nothing compared what you want to be done to women and non-Muslims in your Wahhabi Islamic Utopia. This is nothing compared to what will happen to you, or your children, if you ever get into in trouble and need a sharia court to save you. So you better get a grip on yourself and grow some backbone, there will come a day when you will need it.

  101. Jessica: WHO TOLD YOU i DONT READ, lol I speak 6 languages fluently, another 4 so so and read and write 6, I wont tell you how foolish your assumptions are. And I have 2 degrees. SO PISS OFF

    Wow, Jessica, I am duly impressed. However, after having gone through all your postings, I am sorry to say but your degrees and multi-lingual talents didn’t show through. Let me share with you a few “gems” from your own koran and hadees:

    62:5 The parable of those who were charged with the law and then they failed to live up to it is that of a donkey laden with books. Even more evil is the parable of the people who gave the lie to the Signs of Allah. Allah does not direct such wrong-doers to the Right Way.

    Imam Ahmed narrates that Prophet Mohammed said regarding something: “That would happen when knowledge is lost.” One of the Sahabah asked, “O Messenger of Allah, how could knowledge be lost when we have studied the Quran, we are teaching it to our children and our children will teach it to theirs.” Prophet said: “Woe to you! I thought you were one of the most learned men of Medinah. Can’t you see the Jews and Christians and Muslims are not benefiting even though they all have their scriptures right with them?”

    Koran and hadees both make it clear that if there is no COMMONSENSICAL application of “religion” to everyday life, all the multiple educational degrees and speaking in dozens of tongues in the world becomes useless. If one doesn’t know and apply the knowledge that they have gained, they become like donkeys carrying their “books” as their burdens, not benefiting from their “loads”.

    Many so-called scholars and imams, and their followers … most especially the wahabbis …. recite koran and hadees like parrots without fully understanding the meaning and significance. As both koran hadees point out, they are like a donkey loaded with books. Donkeys like this cannot be called “scholars”, whether it is the imams or their wahabi followers.

    As part of my continuing education in islam, I have interacted with quite a few wahabi so-called imams/
    scholars (and wahabi followers). I will tell ya, while they throw at ya the koran verses and hadees and seera which they learnt/memorized by rote, they couldn’t answer my simple questions in a rational way. They are still living in the 7th century and can’t apply their so-called knowledge to the 21st century!

    Lastly, Jessica, you accused others of being mean and nasty to you. Take a look at yourself in the mirror! You insulted Aafke, one of the most respected and knowledgeable members of the american bedu forum, by telling her to “so piss off”.

    You owe her an apology Jessica! Is the rude language that you used in line with the wahabi intrepretation of koran and hadees and prophet’s seera???????????????????????? Looks like it …

  102. @ Aafke, “Justme, (or Lilly as you previously called yourself) Your questions seem weird for somebody who claims to know how sharia works.”

    Aafke, you are mistaken. I have never claimed to know anything about sharia. I sincerely asked Coolred those questions because I was honestly wanting to know those answers. I find it truly heartbreaking that something more was not done to prosecute that man. Please re-read the comments I have left under these screen names and explain to me where I claimed to know sharia? You will find none.

    I also find it odd that you answered for Coolred when she is perfectly capable of doing so herself if she wanted. I do however thank you for sharing your opinions with me.

    And yes, I use Lilly as a screen name for when I visit blogs and Justme and I have old ones too. There is nothing wrong with wanting to hide my true name and still having the desire to share my thoughts and opinions with other people. I find it very strange that you would single me out in such a manner when I have not left hurtful, rude or discriminatory comments on this blog (or others for that matter). And it is also odd that the moderator of this blog “confirmed” that my screen names have the same IP address.

    Ok, I am Lilly, just me. Where is the harm in that? I have not harmed anyone here. I am only sharing my opinions on an open forum just like millions of other people do. Anyone can tell it’s the same person by the style of writing. How are my two innocent screen names and my few comments any different to anyone else’s whether they be Jack, Jane or even Anonymous???

    I do not understand why you are policing me. I am not a criminal! It seems odd, rude and hurtful as I’ve done nothing wrong.

    Your behavior makes me feel unwelcome.

    I would love to hear American Bedu’s opinion on this as this is her blog, not yours or the moderator; which it seems to me you Aafke are the moderator but I could be wrong.

    —-

    By the way thank you Coolred for replying to me. Your answer was heartfelt and honest. May you and your daughters stay happy and safe always.

  103. Anyway back to the original post: I ‘ve been thinking about the question of “when do you need God the most?” and was reminded of an old joke:

    What do atheists say on the plane when it is crashing? …”Oh God!”

    Now, that wasn’t meant to offend and it doesn’t mean they believe in him, it’s just an expression but it does have me wondering how many of us believers only turn to him when we are closer to death and mostly ignore him while we’re healthy.

  104. Jessica,
    Thank you for explaining your position better. I don’t fully agree with you, but everyone is entitled to believe what they would like to, IMO.

    I know of a woman who is Muslim and a strong believer. Since she could never find anything that explicitly states that women must cover their hair, she chooses not to do so. However, she still dresses modestly, is chaste, a good person and friend, and still prays regularly, etc. Not all Muslims cover their hair, either. However, I also know of women that do cover their hair and I am not for/against this. I don’t like extra attention, so irrespective of religion, I do not think I’d want to cover my hair in a country where this was not the norm.

    I do not believe rituals are necessary in order to serve God/Allah and therefore, I consider myself a monotheist. Although I was raised Christian, I was never taught to worship Jesus- only to worship God. I was also taught to be chaste because it’s more practical- STDs exist, and pregnancy is a possible outcome of sex. Although now, I really don’t mind the idea of being pregnant as I mentioned above.

    All,
    I can’t remember how many people said it before on here, but I also think people tend to focus on the differences.

    As for people using more than one alias, I don’t understand the big deal about it, but if someone starts arguing with his/herself, I’m going to be a little confused!

  105. JustmeLillyhowdoyoulikethat said: What do atheists say on the plane when it is crashing? …”Oh God!”

    I have heard this joke before, probably “invented” by
    the “believers” to strengthen their respective religions. As an atheist, I would naturally scream “Oh Ess***” or “Oh Eff****” !!!!!

  106. Agree with Harry, I have been close , very close to death, nearly dead, three times, and the idea of starting to look for actual tangible help from an imaginary skydaddy never popped into my mind.
    First time I thought ”Oh, I’m probably going to die now, interesting..”
    Second time I thought nothing, I was out.
    Third time I thought, ”Oh well, this sucks”

  107. Oh, and once I miscalculated while piloting a soaring plane, (so no engine) and I saw the ground coming up fast and I was quite scared, but it never came into my mind to start praying.
    What did come into my mind were my flying lessons, the rules of physics, and how to keep my plane long enough in the air to land on the strip. Which I did. Obviously.
    By staying cool and using my brain, not by praying to some invisible, imaginary skydaddy.

  108. Okee, I admit, I saw I was not going to make the landing strip so I let go of all my controls and started praying, two angels came swooshing down, held up the wings, and carried the plane safely to the landing strip.
    Caused quite a stir actually, but they didn’t want to put it in the paper because nobody thought of making photos so we had no proof…
    As if me landing safely isn’t proof enough!

    Those darned atheists… Always insisting on proof while we all know that Faith is enough!

    And the explanation ”God did it” is always the best explanation if you don’t know what happened.

  109. When I was in my car with my two youngest sliding towards an abyss on the side of a snowy mountain top (wrote about it on my blog) only thought going through my head was “Oh Sh*t, they will never find us”. 😦

  110. @strangeone that’s funny! very cute! no, i would not argue with myself. i have just always used more than one screen name and email for many years now. i find it fun to change them up, i get bored with the same name all the time. sometimes i choose the names based on the moods i’m having or even the spice i may be using that day in my cooking:) my opinions are the same just different name. other blogs do not give me a hard time about this and i can’t imagine i’m the only one to do that on this blog or others. i have never intentionally tried to hurt anyone by doing this. i have my own reasons for protecting my identity as does everyone else. so i agree with you and do not see the big deal here. i hope AB herself can respond to this as i found the policing offensive as if i’m a criminal.

    to the self-proclaimed atheists out there: again, i did not mean to offend by stating that previous joke. who knows where the joke originated from. i just remembered hearing it when i was younger, i never said it was a good joke. and given that i instinctively thought of God when i had chest pains earlier, it just made me think of how many of us believers do that too (only remember God when we’re in trouble or dying). i am guilty of this more often then i’d like to admit. i get busy with life etc, until i get a wake up call from God. at least this is how i see it. we are not going to see life occurrences in the same light because of our vast differences in beliefs about God or no God. and that’s ok……..the world will still spin 🙂

  111. @JustmeLillyhowdoyoulikethat
    This is moderator#2, As Carol is ill she has asked two people to moderate her blog in case of absence or just not feeling well. I saw a comment about you maybe using a shadow id and checked you IP. It was the same. This confirmed the use of a shadow IP. This is in general not allowed on most open forums on the internet. There are forums where you will be blocked immediately. I give people one chance.
    We have had shadow accounts before on this blog.
    Shadow accounts will not be tolerated.
    You can change your id if you like. But you cannot post under two different names.
    This is confusing at best and misleading at worst.
    Most people who use a shadow account on the web do not do so with innocence in mind.
    I hope I have explained clearly.
    Feel free to change your name, but do not comment under two different names.
    It is polite to explain your change of name the first time you use it.
    For people with a personal gravatar attached to their comments the change is more clear to other forum users.

  112. “Most people who use a shadow account on the web do not do so with innocence in mind.”

    What rubbish! I’m protecting my identity and having innocent fun with changing the names, nothing less and nothing more!

    I rarely comment but when I do, I do not use more than one name per page, post or whatever. And what is a shadow IP anyway?

    It is no more confusing or misleading than having dozens of commenters that only use “Anonymous” as their name.

    This is asinine to the nth degree and I have had no other problems in doing this for years on any other blog until now with you, Moderator #2 or should I say Aafke?

  113. As much as I hate to admit it, I’ve run into a road bump in my fight and am now “quarantined” for 10 days. Unfortunately at this moment I do not have the level of energy to do various things, among them keep up daily on the blog. Thankfully I have written posts in advance but you may not see my comments as often during this period.

    In regards to “shadow id’s” the only time they’ve been allowed and even encouraged is when I have interviewed individuals who wish to protect their identity due to subject matter discussed. Otherwise having more than one account on a blog has generally been because an individual wants to “substantiate” or “validate” opinions and perspectives.

    Call me an old-fashioned Bedu but that’s my view…and rule.

  114. Sorry to hear you are not feeling better. May Allah heal you.

    I respect your rules for your blog but I disagree with you. I have not been changing my screen names in order to “substantiate” or “validate” my own opinions or perspectives. I rarely comment and I do not debate with others. I share my opinion quickly, I do not duplicate it with another name. Not everyone is up to something sinister on the Internet. I only change my names frequently because I enjoy it and hope to protect my identity. I’m in Saudi and you know as well as I do not everyone is open here to certain opinions. I am not out to deceive or hurt others in any way and I am surprised and disappointed you AB do not understand that.

    I am done with this topic.

  115. Lilly, I don’t understand how changing your name frequently while commenting is protecting your identlty? I don’t think that you had anything sinister in mind but for the sake of the flow of the conversation it does make sense to pick a name to comment as and stick to it. no? Although accidental postings as Strangeone/Lori did was different and understandable she did let us know it was her right away.

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