Saudi Arabia/Pakistan: Who Remains in Control of Pakistan


 

Pakistan is a country which responds best when it is under a veiled military rule.  The parties in Pakistan which are viewed in theory as democratic parties are parties whose primary members have paid their price for the position held.  They may be the party in power at the moment but in many ways it is more of a puppet government for in the background the Army is the force with the influence and the clout.

 

Yet even within Pakistan’s mighty army there are internal conflicts.  The most powerful men in Pakistan’s Army are the twelve corps commanders who control the country, its security, stability and resources.  The corps commanders are hardened men who have all faced the sternest of challenges.  The basic training a Pakistan army official goes through makes many other armed services around the world appear to have ‘charm schools’ as a training ground.

 

The majority of officials in Pakistan’s army will spend time in Siachen, Kargill and among other highest peaks in the world each year when Pakistan and India play their annual roulette against each other.  No other armies in the world gain that kind of experience battling the extreme elements as well as the enemy.

But speaking of its enemies, Pakistan can be more Arab than the Arab in an ‘eye for an eye.’ Within the Pakistan Army is a brotherhood that only an inner core will ever have the opportunity to enter.  That inner core decides the strategies and decision of Pakistan, even whether to have harbored Usama bin Laden.  Since bin Laden’s death, the inner core is seeking its retribution against those who sided with the U.S.government to aid and abet the raid on the Usama bin Laden compound. 

 

In most places human intelligent sources are given every opportunity and precise plans with contingencies for the protection and security of their lives.  Yet the Pakistan army with its far reaching tentacles like an octopus was able to dig and uncover the identities and roles of some of the human sources.  The army felt betrayed and wanted its vengeance on multiple fronts.  The army had been ‘found out’ for harboring and supporting bin Laden.  That is a lot of egg on the face that won’t go away easily. The Pakistan army prides itself on its control and secrecy yet there was a breach leading to the middle of the night American raid.  The army knows that the fine dance it had been playing with the U.S. Government is over and a different tune not to its liking will take its place.

 

Does Pakistan still require the United States?  How important is it for the United States to maintain strong relations with Pakistan?  Where does Saudi Arabia fall in the equation?  Among Pakistan’s close allies and partners are China and Saudi Arabia.  The relationship between the United States and these countries is also undergoing change.

 

The United States will need to rebuild its intelligent network in Pakistan to keep apprised of plans, intentions, strategies, and the security of Pakistan’s nuclear program.  The Federally Adminstrated Tribal Areas (FATA) will continue to be a haven and breeding ground of terrorism and anti-west rhetoric.  There are numerous transit points between the FATA, Northern Areas and Afghanistan for Taliban, Al-Qaeda and other rogue operatives to flourish.  Baluchistan remains a pinnacle hotbed.  Yes; there are many reasons for the United States to have its eyes and ears to the ground of Pakistan.  Pakistan has become the bigger magnet than perhaps Saudi Arabia or Yemen for the Arab fighters to continue to gather and plan.

 

This may be the pivotal time for intelligence techniques and methods to be dramatically revised and molded from traditional Western practices to the embodiment of Arab methods.  While networks may plant their nest in Pakistan there targets and goals are usually farther afield.  In addition to plotting against the West there are also those who roost in Pakistan and continue to plan a downfall against Saudi Arabia and its ruling family.

 

In closing, the relationship between Pakistan and the United States has taken a hard blow.  It is a critical time for the US Defense Department and Intelligence services to evaluation their programs, modus operandi and aid which has been given to Pakistan since 1989.  Pakistan will take what is offered but as history has shown repeatedly is that the other hand remains a closed unyielding fist.

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44 Responses

  1. If the US needs Pakistan anymore, it is only to help support the Afghan war. At this point the US needs to abandon that foolish enterprise. We never needed to go there at all. If we wanted to bomb al Qaeda bases we didn’t need to take over the government. Pakistan is completely unreliable and not just unreliable. they are evil. The attack on Mumbai was a Pakistani endeavor.

    The US wars since the end of WWII have almost all been failures, let us save our money.

  2. It is the USA which has used the Pakistani Army from the time of SEATO/CENTO to bleed India. The Pakistani Army under Brig Zia killed nearly 10,000 Palestinian Muslims in aid of King Hussein in Jordan (black September?)Even today it is USA which requires Pakistani mercenaries to save the Bahrain Kings.It is USA which requires Pakistan for logistic support of NATO in Afghanistan. It is USA which requires Pakistan army to export the Heroin which is produced in Afghanistan. It is USA which requires Pakistan’s Shamsi airbase to launch drones to kill Alqueda terrorists. Pakistan always sold itslef to heighest biddr and Saudies have been one of them.

  3. ‘The United States will need to rebuild its intelligent network in Pakistan to keep apprised of plans, intentions, strategies, and the security of Pakistan’s nuclear program’

    Actually, it sounds like it DID. Seems they learned to not trust Pakistan and that is why they were actually able to get bin Laden when they kept their plans to themselves rather than share with Pakistani officials. The US has proven that it does not need Pakistan for anything and I certainly hope that they realize that any $$ aid to them does NOT help US.

    I’m curious Carol, what was your job during your years as a US Diplomat in Pakistan?

  4. Pakistan is a FAILED state. Just last year, Pakistan was ranked the 10th most failed state in the world, just three places below Afghanistan. Somalia topped the 2010 Failed States Index followed by Zimbabwe, Sudan, and Chad.

    Pakistan should never have been “born” via caesarian section in the first place, and should have been “aborted” by the British raj. Pakistan should not exist. Obviously I don’t mean it should be razed to the ground. I mean it should have remained part of a larger, secular-state India. Under such a system, Pakistani Muslims would have more freedom and human rights than they have at present.

    It was a disaster for the world (and for minorities and liberal Muslims in Pakistan) that this violent, repressive Muslim sectarian state was split off from India. Pakistan has been involved in near constant violence and oppression ever since, and today is one of the world’s leading incubators and exporter of global Islamic terror. Al Qaeda and the Taliban currently have their best sanctuary in Pakistan. And as recent events have shown, it harbored bin Laden for some six years in a military garrison town.

    Besides Pakistan, Israel is the only other country established with religion as the raison d’etre. However, like the US, Israel is secular democracy while Pakistan is sharia-fascist state. Israel should exist. Pakistan should not exist.

    Instead of pouring bajillions of dollars into the pakistani military, we should work on removing nuclear weapons from one of the world’s leading incubators/exporters of terror in return for money. What I have in mind is that Pakistan would verifiably eliminate its entire nuclear stockpile and the industrial base that sustains it. In exchange, the U.S. and other Western donors would agree to a generous economic package, disbursed over a reasonable number of years, on condition that Pakistan remain a democratic and secular state (no military rulers; no Sharia law).

  5. ‘In exchange, the U.S. and other Western donors would agree to a generous economic package, disbursed over a reasonable number of years, on condition that Pakistan remain a democratic and secular state’

    Bullshit! How about ‘play nice or face the wrath!’ They have PROVEN that they cannot be trusted. No more deals and no more American’s tax dollars!

  6. Interesting comments above. Witting vilification without knowing the basics, but that is what the FOX and other “likewise” channels have resulted in. Harry finds India a secular state! Ok. I guess Harry has not seen on FOX, the persecution of Christians, the “unthouchables”, naxals et al. Obviously the informed as the by-product of the informing media do not know that more than half of india is on fire from internal strife. The secular state oversees official persecution of Muslims in Gujrat. But what do you expect from someone who says Israel has a right to exist?!! May I know why and how? Israel a secular democracy? Is it just the mouth you use or some encouragement comes from the upper part as well? The bill Knesset passed a few months back was democracy? Locking up people like Mordechai Vanunu is democracy? Killing unarmed civilians and raiding aid flotillas is democracy? Using phosphorus bombs on civil population is democracy? Military censorship on every news is democracy? Awarding medals to mass murderers is democracy? Israeli ZIONAZIS are an illegitimate product of Zionists and Nazis.

    Ah well, the undistinguished list is too long but a no-brainer for someone with brains. Not a common commodity any more I guess.

    Pakistanis have proven that they have learnt the lesson well. And it is US that cannot be trusted. Not just by Pakistan. The list of manipulations and abandonment is global and long. But let us speak of Pakistan. A member of SEATO and CENTO gets arms embargo from the US in every war with India! Trust worthy relation for some I guess but then remember the rare commodity as mentioned above? America’s indian love affair is short lived and based on wrong premise(s). Indians are always up to the self interest. Just like they kept that carrot hanging in front of the americans of the 126 fighter planes for the nuclear deal. And once that got signed, the americans were dumped! I guess the McMorons now need to use brains instead of hedonistic arrogance. US will need Pakistan. To contain India, Russia, Iran and for the known shortest route of the oil and gas of the CARs.

    If someone is living under the wrong notion of Pakistanis being averse of american sponsorhip of the Taliban in Pakistan, then the someone needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Pakistanis have survived and will survive. If the brain-dead brave from the land of the mightiest military that shits green in every war could have taken out the nukes, they would have done it a long time back.

    And seriously, you guys still believe that OBL raid was a genuine thing?

  7. Pakistan is self-immolating on a daily basis …..

    In the midst of church burnings, lynchings of christians and hindus, and ongoing sectarian violence (which at times looks like a civil war), the poor of Pakistan are left with the only opium they can get: Islam. And even that is used against Pakistan’s arch enemy, India. Popular devotion to Islam is channelled to provide an endless supply of men for jihad. Anger is carefully re-directed away from the ruling elite, to be directed at India, Israel, the US or other Western nations, or is internalized as people not being “Islamic” enough. The anger is compounded by what is taught in schools and madrassas following curricula that actively teach hatred and discrimination to impressionable children.

    When security, human services, justice, and basic necessities are not provided, states fail. Pakistan can be compared to a broken biscuit whose pieces are held together by some wrapping paper. The area labeled as Pakistan on maps is called Pakistan, but that area is not wholly under the control of any single government or leadership, as one would expect of a normally functioning nation-state. The first fragment of the biscuit that broke off was Bangladesh, in 1971. There is no guarantee that the other fragments of this dysfunctional state will hold together.

    Only 5% of Baloochistan, Pakistan’s largest province, is under Pakistani control … tribal law rules the sparsely populated land. Also, the Pakistani government has little or no control over the federally administered tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In addition, large areas of Pakistan’s largest city, Karachi, remain outside government control.

    Here’s an excellent book available online about “Pakistan: A Failed State”. It is an excellent read …..

    http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

  8. Harry you probably grew up in the lap of Fox anchors. The Church burnings and lynchings are a common practice in India. Islam is a religion and offers a way of life. One that you are aware of but choose to ignore. And perhaps you can google, between your junk food, as I am sure you are not aware of VSS and RSS in india or the very platform BJP used to rule or the very religious hate promoting the BJP government does and survives because of, in Gujrat and other east indian provinces. Not to mention the hate mongers you grew in the laps of. Where I will agree that anger is carefully diverted away from the ruling elite, is it not happening everywhere in the world? The most in the US and Israel and India? Ah but you re not aware of it. And wont be till Bill Oh Really does something about it!

    I thought only your political knowledge was out of sync but your geography is too. The Tribal areas you mention in FATA and PATA (again you re not aware of it), fall very much within the Federal Boundaries with people living very much as Pakistanis. I guess you ve been to some to make that point? Or does FOX take over here too? Bangladesh was a political fallout of Indians and a diplomatic victory for them. But Pakistan is not going anywhere dude. And it is not tribal laws that rule the largest province, you spelt it wrongly, but then again, there was nothing right about your comment anyway.

    And it must have been a trip to mars as the “kidnapped” one that informed you that Karachi is out of government control. Every Cosmopolitan city has law and order situation. DC, Moscow, Rio, London, Sydney, Bombay the most. But then again, this is planet earth, where not every FOX is Megan and worth the pursuit.

    I am writing a book on Israel being a failed state. Will post the link. See if you re on the planet and can read it. Bon Voyage if you not.

  9. Holy Sinner…

    ” The secular state oversees official persecution of Muslims in Gujrat.”

    Could you please give examples as I am unfamiliar with this…

  10. Pakistan, along with Egypt and S. Arabia, is one of three muslim countrries I keep a close eye on. It is a mess. It is full of hate and intolerance. A pretty good picture os what Pakistan has become can be found here (It is a scary bleak picture, for sure):

    http://pakteahouse.net/2009/04/12/pakistan-intolerance-running-riot/

    I quote: “Grain by grain, the desert sands of Saudi Arabia are replacing the rich soil that had nurtured a rich Muslim culture in India for a thousand years. This culture produced Mughal architecture, the Taj Mahal, the poetry of Asadullah Ghalib, and much more. Now a stern, unyielding version of Islam — Wahabism — is replacing the kinder, gentler Islam of the sufis and saints who had walked on this land for hundreds of years…”

    I think it is much more than Wahabism. It is because Islam is fertile ground for intolerance and hate. It is a shame because the Pakistanis I have met have been great people and they are just as saddened and perplexed by events in the Land of the Pure as I. The fact is that the old saying, if not true before, now is: Pakistanis are just Indians that serve their Arab masters. Not just any Arab, the most intolerant and hateful of Arabs, the Salafis.

    Of course, the writer had to blame all this on America: The US pushed radical islam on Pakistan. We did it! We made them become more Muslim. The solution to Pakistan’s problem according to the article is also typical of Muslims: India must give up Kashmir.

    Holy Sinner. Always the obsession with India, hum? Perhaps Pakistan should solve its problem before offering advice to is neighbors. What ever India’s sins may be, and I am sure they many, just like all countries, I think one fact is enough to judge the two countries and render a moral verdict: The treatment of religious minorities in each since 1947-48. The fact is that Pakistan has just about eliminated, murdered, displaced, banished, all non-Muslims, who were at least 15% of population at independence. Compare that to what happened in India. That says all that needs to be said about islam and yes, the people of Pakistan. Please don’t blame the “elites” or just certain groups for this, the entire people of Pakistan let this happen. They did not raise their voices. They are guilty of the same hate and intolerance (even if by indifference and lack of courage) as the radicals. The fact is that Pakistan is drunk with the wine of intolerance and hate, distilled from the pages of the Quran and hadith. Of course, you and others can only blame fox news, the US, the Zionists, the West, to name a few you mentioned, because you dare not look at the dark soul of your religion. Well, It will get worse. Oh yes, you are right about one thing. Don’t trust America.

    Oby, it is the Ahmadiyya sect, not considered real Muslims by the government. They are persecuted and discriminated against by officials.

  11. Pakistan has such a volatile history and within that history you could say it became accustomed to being let down by the United States. How many times has Pakistan been a launching point for the US and then with little warning or notice, the US would pull out or stop an operation. It’s not surprising then that Pakistan as in the government or the Army simply learned to adapt a ‘puppet attitude’ towards US requests and then go about its own goals.

    I had so many special moments and memories of Pakistan I could probably write a thick book. I saw people of Pakistan from many different directions. I got to meet and share tea with some of Pakistan’s nomadic Bougher tribe. I was prepared and fed traditional fare by a Baloch elder. I met with Pakistan’s Christians in the slums. Pakistan is a real kaleidoscope of people and culture and maybe in some ways, more tolerant than Saudi Arabia. Pakistan does have its multiple sects of Islam, Christians, Mormon churches…It has women in its leadership.

    I agree with Jay. Pakistan is a country which needs to be watched. It has vast natural resources, nuclear capability, and last but never least, people with passion.

  12. ‘How many times has Pakistan been a launching point for the US and then with little warning or notice, the US would pull out or stop an operation’

    I have NO idea. Could you share a few examples with us please?

  13. During the Cold War Pakistan was used as a secret launching facility for U2 recon flights.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

    Pakistan was a pivotal point during the Soviet/Afghan war too. Just read ‘Charlie Wilson’s War.’

  14. I’m not questioning whether or not Pakistan was used as a launching place, it’s the part about how the US would pull out or stop an operation with little warning or notice that I was questioning. How did that harm or ‘let down’ Pakistan?

  15. It does put a question into long term relationships, trust and stability. Our allies are only as close or loyal as we show them to be.

  16. Yes, I could understand better if I had an example of some of the many operations you said that the US would pull out of. That’s what I was asking for. 🙂

  17. Pakistan ranked number 12 on a list of the “most failed states”, according to an annual report published in the Foreign Policy magazine on Tuesday. The 2011 report states that Pakistan has long been dubbed the “world’s most dangerous country” in Washington policy circles.

    The report states: Tick off any checklist of US national security concerns, and Pakistan has them all: nuclear weapons, terrorist and insurgent groups galore, and rampant anti-American sentiment. Add to all this a volatile political system, and it’s no wonder that Pakistan preoccupies so many Western security analysts.

    The report adds that Pakistan is not just dangerous for the West – it’s often a danger to its own people. It also states that the cultivation of militant groups by the Pakistani military and intelligence services – which the report states is a counterweight to India and a source of “strategic depth” in Afghanistan – has turned Pakistan into a “cockpit of terrorist violence”.

    It adds that the country’s military leaders have made a “strategic” decision to allow the Pahstuns to govern themselves in what the report calls “ungoverned spaces” in the Pahstun-dominated badlands along the Afghanistan border.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/06/17/2011_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_rankings

  18. Oby, you can google the Hindu Muslim riots in the early start of this century. TIME and Newsweek gave it ample coverage. The state police of Gujrat was tasked to kill Muslims. TIME was full of stories that would give sleepless nights to many. I remember almost all of them but this is not the place to narrate them. An Indian tv channel TEHALKA showed incriminating footage and had their transmission rights canceled by the indian federal government, in 2007.

    You can also google the persecution of Christians and naxals. NatGeo Discovery and a few other channels have also done documentaries on it and there are some videos available on YouTube as well.

  19. Pakistan ranked 12th? Damn! And where was Israel with all the mass murderers living and thriving there? Where was Syria? And then many more. US security concerns included Cuba, Panama, Bolivia, Columbia, Brazil, South Africa, India, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma…And people like Che Guvera, Omar Torrijos, people who served their nations.

    And obviously FOX does not mention why the anti-american sentiment in Pakistan? FOX will not even tell that america spent more than 19 billion since the start of this century in Pakistan, where China invested less than 19 million $. But Pakistanis still love the Chinese. Every country that america has befriended, has suffered. Take the recent “sharing” of Trident codes with the Russians. UK did not end up in a safe place, I guess.

    Pashtuns have autonomy since 1947. Just like some tribal areas exist today even in the US. Your lack of knowledge is obvious and hilarious. Just like the US could not allow Russian IL 28s and SS 4s on the Cuban soil, Pakistan cannot sit idle and watch the 17 indian consulates and one huge embassy hand out MGs and let upto 130 tonnes of plastic explosive get “stolen” from the indian civil construction sites in Afghanistan. What Pakistan is doing is just the right thing. For whatever the websites say, enjoy over a cup of coffee.

  20. Lynn, let me try to answer your comment. Or perhaps that fact that the TTP (Tehrik Taliban Pakistan), responsible for more than 2000 suicide blasts claiming more than 36,000 civilian lives and more than 5,000 military personnel are using communication equipment only in possession of the NATO armies. The fuses and detonators have been found made in the NATO countries and Russia. Use Indian made Vickers machine guns as CQB weapons. Get satellite navigation aid and photographs to avoid military cordons. The drones have just been accurate to 10%. The rest are all civilian deaths, women and children mostly. High value targets responsible for thousands of civilian deaths were purposely not “engaged” by the drones even when the government of Pakistan gave GPS coordinates upto 6 points after decimal. CIA s drug trade worth 350 billion drew more weapons and drugs in Pakistan than any other country.

    Back in the days of the Russian invasion, the US left Afghanistan and Pakistan both, as soon as the Russians did. Coming back only to deal with the Taliban for the oil and gas pipeline for Unocal. The same “high value targets” had receptions at the White House and state protocol! But that was when they were likely to agree to the pipeline royalty.

    Now the US has allowed India to build 17 consulates in afghanistan, all along the Pak Afghan border. India is hiding known terrorists there. The government of Pakistan has released photographs of them going in and coming out of consulates.
    Whenever Pakistani troops have engaged the TTP terrorists, they have sought refuge in the NATO controlled area of Afghanistan. And when the Pak Army asked the “brave” to interdict TTP retreat into Afghanistan, the NATO armies abandoned the whole deployment area(s) for a few days.

    Just to sight a few…can be verified from internet. Pakistani newspapers or ISPR website.

  21. Jay, Ahmedia sect is a clear manipulation of the religion. I will not go in the details of the origin of the person who started it and how he ended. Do it if you feel like. For the Christians that were 15%, including some other minorities, they are living a happy life. Atleast all of the ones I studied with for 15 years in Christian Missionary schools, like La Salle. The leading traders and manufacturers and industrialists are all non muslims.

    India centric? Well, out of the 5 military commands India has, 4 are positioned against Pakistan. The FOBs are all along Pak India border. All the independent armoured brigades face Pakistan. The lastest armoured units are facing Pakistan. Out of 13 Corps, 7 are facing Pakistan. All the Rapid Deployment forces are facing Pakistan. 2/3 Aviation, Air Force and Strike forces assets are facing Pakistan. The nuclear programme India started in the 1960s was Pakistan specific. The Prithvi with a range of 250 kms they fired first was Pakistan specific. More than 2/3 indian Navy assets are in their Western Command. India forcefully occupies the glaciers in the Northern Areas. Sir Creek in the south. Lobbies hard to deny markets of Pakistani products. I guess Pakistan is justified in what the response is. India sponsors state terrorism against Pakistan. The bomb blast claiming 54 lives is an example. The blast on the train that was coming to Pakistan.

    Dark religion? Well, Hitler was a Christian. That means Christianity was a dark religion? Americans have killed more innocent people than any other. Americans are Christians. India kills an average of 2,000 Muslims a year. Hinduism is a dark religion? Chinese kill so many of their own. Israelis kill unarmed civilians with the most horrific weapons. Judaism is a dark religion? Russians have killed mercilessly…

  22. @The Holy Sinner – ‘Obviously the informed as the by-product of the informing media do not know that more than half of india is on fire from internal strife. The secular state oversees official persecution of Muslims in Gujrat. But what do you expect from someone who says Israel has a right to exist?!! ‘

    I Googled as you had asked Oby to and I see that you were referring to the riots that were started after the Muslims conspired to burn up a train full of returning Hindu pilgrims burning to death 58 including 25 women and 15 children?

    The ‘secular state’ that oversaw the official persecution of Muslims was a LOCAL government, not ‘India’ itself. As a matter of fact India reprimanded those police, did they not? Also, there are reports that Hindus in Muslim dominated areas were left without police protection as well, correct? So I guess I’m just wondering what your whole point was anyway? That Pakistan is better than India? That India is not, as it claims to be, a secular democratic republic? If you were, I hardly think that the way those riots went down prove either of those points.

  23. ‘CIA s drug trade worth 350 billion drew more weapons and drugs in Pakistan than any other country.’

    Perhaps Carol can verify that for you since she was a member of the CIA in Pakistan.

  24. Actually Lynn I googled it earlier today as you did (just now getting back) and ignoring the Hindu centric websites and the Muslim Centric websites it seems that you are right…it was started by a muslim mob who burned a train. Hindus sought retaliation and went after the Muslims…but what I read and what Holy Sinner left out was that the Muslims then turned around and did the same thing to the Hindus.(not surprisingly) It went on to say that 200 police lost their lives trying to control the violence in Gujarat.

    “The Indian Supreme Court has been strongly critical of the state government’s investigation and prosecution of those accused of violence during the riots, directing police to review about 2,000 of the 4,000 riot related cases that had been closed citing lack of evidence or leads.Following this direction, police identified nearly 1,600 cases for reinvestigation, arrested 640 accused and launched investigations against 40 police officers for their failures.”

    That sounds to me like the gov’t was NOT on the side of the Hindus and made efforts to investigate what happened.

    Holy Sinner you made it sound like Muslims had no party to this. Yet it appears both sides had a role to play. Without going into the entire LONG thing I read, it seems that Muslims weren’t exactly kicked to the curb without any thought by the gov’t.

  25. Oby, I am not siding with anyone here and am not required to. I quoted TIME and NEWSWEEK as well. The train that was lit up in which more than 68 people (Indian government count is less), was burnt up by the same Indian Army Colonel who blew up the second train coming to Pakistan and was under investigation by the same Inspector General of Bombay Police who was hit centre mass with an MPI of 3 inches from more than 400 meters, during the Bombay terrorist incident.

    The train that you mention that was burnt, was done by the activists of RSS. An Indian government report as been issued in this regard, clearing everyone else suspected (including Pakistan’s ISI).

    TIME and NEWSWEEK and some other including some very brave Indian newspapers blew the whistle on the Gujrat government and showed pictures of Police attrocities. More than 10,000 people, mostly Muslims lost their lives at the behest of the BJP government there. Videos are available on the net. Also search why Tehalka (if this is how it is spelt), TV was penalised and lost transmission rights.

    To date, the one person who is to be blamed is basking in the glory of being the Chief Minister (of the province) responsible. He gets re-elected everytime due to his hindutva policies. Its all there for you to read.

    Carol, please do verify the CIA drug trade link for Lynn as it is now public knowledge that during Taliban, 96% of the drug trade ended abruptly and remained so for more than two years.

    Lynn, Pakistan was meant to be a secular state. Our founding father, Muhammad Ali Jinnah in his inauguration stated very clearly, “religion will not be the BUSINESS of the state.” The state was then hijacked and remains so. I am not comparing India with Pakistan. I think there are so many dynamics involved that one country cannot just be compared with the other. My only point was the limited focus on one country and demonising the other. I am pretty sure that many here have not been to Pakistan. And definitely have no right to demonise the country. Where Pakistan is wrong, Pakistan is wrong.

  26. ‘The state was then hijacked and remains so’

    So Pakistan IS a failed state?

  27. Hijacked. Not failed. And that is why still surviving. And with the outside help that just does not cease, it will remain hijacked.

  28. Well, if it can get hijacked and stay hijacked for so long then it sounds like a failure to me.

  29. Should the Army be in control of Pakistan? Can Pakistan succeed and grow under a democratically but corrupt government?

  30. If it democratic it is up to the people to ensure that the government is not corrupt. No?

  31. Hijack and Failure might be synonyms for you brother. They are different.

    Carol, you know it more than anyone here perhaps, that Pakistan has worked better under a military ruler. From the start the politicians in Pakistan have been very close one super power and that has really destroyed the country. However, I will say here that some sense is prevailing in the people.

  32. Pakistan had traditionally been the land of those who have or have not. Within the past 10 years however a middle class has risen in Pakistan and it is this middle class which will be the ones to change Pakistan and its economy.

    I was surprised between my own two visits to Pakistan. The second time I did not more commerce and small businesses as well as more vehicles on the roads. I did not experience the power outages or brown outs indicating better stability with its infrastructure. But corruption still reigned and particularly in the government sector. Even something as simple as acquiring a landline phone would require a “fee” for expedited service…otherwise one could be on a list waiting for more than a year.

    The people of Pakistan learned how to work with the system. However in regards to Pakistan rulers there has been a pattern between military rule, Sharif or Bhutto rule. Others have attempted but no success. The Sharif and Bhutto families have been known for favoritism and abuse of their position and abuse of Pakistan’s assets.

  33. Pakistan …. the land of pure and innocence …. is self-immolating itself on a daily basis ….

    A cellphone used by Osama bin Laden’s courier appears to show that the al Qaeda leader was aided by militants linked to Pakistani intelligence, The New York Times said Thursday. The phone was seized during a daring US commando raid in Pakistan last month in which both bin Laden and his courier were killed. The Times said it has maintained clandestine links with the ISI for years.

    Citing US officials briefed on an investigation into the phone, the Times said calls from the device were traced to Harakat-ul-Mujahideen, a militant group linked to Pakistan’s powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, and is classified as a “terrorist” organisation by the United States. Defense analysis group Jane’s said the outfit has conducted raids on Indian security positions and is active in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/world/asia/24pakistan.html

  34. Here’s a satirical look at Pakistan, which continually finds itself in a serious slipper slope dilemma, by a Pakistani journalist:
    “Wiki takes a leak”. http://www.viewpointonline.net/wiki-takes-a-leak.html

    We know very well that the Americans want our strategic assets to be neutralized so that they can sell our nation in perpetual bondage to Benjamin Netanyahu and our sacred real estate to Manmohan Singh. We will sacrifice the last drop of our blood but will let no harm come to our strategic assets, especially our golf courses.

  35. ‘I did not experience the power outages or brown outs indicating better stability with its infrastructure.’

    At all? I had a difficult time trying to Skype with my daughter because the power was going out constantly and there are regular times when they expect the power to be out. From her e-mail: ‘The power goes out at 8pm-9pm(11am-12amEST) and also usually from 6am-7am(9pm-10pmEST)’

  36. ‘The people of Pakistan learned how to work with the system’

    By that do you mean that they just go along with the corruption and make do as best they can?

    How does corruption stop if not with the ‘people’? They know how to protest if a foreign power goes in and takes out the bad guy that they had been ‘harboring’ so why can’t they protest their own government for things that they think are wrong?

  37. Lynn…in the Arab world that’s referred to as wasta. Even if you don’t agree with wasta or wish to engage in that very corrupt system…you quickly learn that it is the only way to get anything done. You have to accept that you have to engage in that corrupt system because there is no other system in place to get around it. I would guess Pakistan is similar…either swim with the corrupt fishes…or get eaten by the corrupt sharks…or something like that. 😉

  38. I understand what you are saying Red but I think corruption can be taken down if they people stand up against it (as they seem to be doing with the ‘Arab Spring’ or the women of KSA driving). It takes people with courage. THAT is what seems to be in short supply over there. Either that or there are too many people that are enjoying the benefits of corrupt living and that is why they don’t take it out and if that is the case how are we supposed to respect them?

  39. This post by American Bedu is about Pakistan. But one will always find some Pakistanies especially those who are in USA coming out with horror stories in India. India has dalit vicitmisation,girl child abortion,poverty,pollution and many more.But it is the paksitani Muslim who works in Saudi Arabia as Mehrans or male escorts for Saudi women who are not from family as they are considered impotent .Even Yemenie men are not given this low state.by the Arabs.

  40. “But one will always find some Pakistanies especially those who are in USA coming out with horror stories in India.”

    Well said, CaptainJohann!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  41. Romancing the 7th Century …. Love Taliban Al-Qaida Style:

    Pakistani Taliban send husband-wife suicide bomber pair to slaughter police. If they had changed their minds, it would’ve been a Taliban couples’ retreat.

    Pakistani Taliban said Sunday the group had sent a husband and wife suicide squad to carry out an attack on a police station in northwestern Pakistan that killed 10 people. A rare instance of militants using a married couple as suicide bombers.

    As in practically all claims of responsibility since US forces killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan on May 2, the Taliban said they were avenging his death, and “to liberate our people from the slavery of America”.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110626/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

  42. Pakistan continues to back multiple jihadist groups …. here is still further confirmation of Pakistan’s double game. This story notes an interesting means by which Pakistan tries to maintain plausible deniability of its connections: the extensive use of retired generals and intelligence officials.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/04/world/asia/04pakistan.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&hp

  43. “This story notes an interesting means by which Pakistan tries to maintain plausible deniability of its connections: the extensive use of retired generals and intelligence officials.”

    That’s nothing new!

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