Kuwaiti woman supports s*x-slavery for women

Salwa Al Mutairi, a Kuwaiti political activist, relates in this video how on a recent visit to Maccah, religious scholars told her that having women turned into  sex-slaves is a good thing. They also cited parts of  Islamic scripture to her which support the enslavement of women for the purpose of sex. Apparently she has taken it hook, line, and sinker, and is now calling for a new law allowing sex-slaves for men so hat they can have halal sex besides their wife (/wives) and therefore saving good Muslim men from zina and fornication.
According to Al Mutairi a good source  for the Muslim sex-slaves would be women from countries like Chechnya. When women are captured in a situation of war they could then be sold to ”dealers” in Kuwait.
She has no problem with enslaving women, which will of course have to be Christian, oops, she meant of course ”non-Muslim” women, and having them live a life of imprisonment and endless rapes. As long as Muslims are safe, and Muslim men are protected from ”fornication”, and it is supported by the scholars, it is a good idea.

Or is it? Is this a serious video? Or one gigantic hoax? What do you think?

AA

Further reading:

Article in Al Arabiya

Article in International business Times

Article in Kuwait  times

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234 Responses

  1. I guess Salwa al Mutairi and the scholars she spoke with in Saudi are all just ignorant of their religion?

  2. I hope it is just a sick joke but looking the source, MEMRI, a conservative on line video service has been known to make translation mistakes in the past. There ofcourse participants on this blog who are fluent in Arabic, so more interesting comments to come.
    Not to get off the topic, but, recently in Malaysia, The Obedient Wives debuted. In just a week around 800 wives joined. Indonesia now has a chapter there with about 300.

  3. It is Memri, but if it were wrong there would be quick rebuttals. I haven’t heard any.

  4. Well,it certainly is not a funny joke, but maybe it was done by some people conspiring against Islam to make it look bad. I saw this story last week on a Muslim Feminist Facebook group. It’s absolutely horrible.

  5. Jacey, I had read about those Obedient Wives clubs and I was very intrigued. So much so that I’m trying to get a chapter of The Obedient Husbands Club going here in Michigan.

  6. I’m signing up for that Obedient Husband Group!
    Or rather I will enroll the fiance as soon as we are married. I will make it my wedding present 😈

    Of course this woman is only repeating what the Quran, hadith and sunnah have to say about women: women are chattel, women can be mafe into slaves, and as long as a man owns them they can be raped at will.
    How does it say? Lawful to you are those your right hand owns or something like that. i don’t see the fuss.
    What I don’t understand is women buying into this.
    Oh but it is only the Kuffaar women, the breathing machines who are to be enslaved and raped.

  7. When I first saw this video a couple of weeks ago I wrote to a Kuwaiti official about it. He replied that al-Mutairi is Kuwait’s version of Terry Jones.

  8. For those asking, there is nothing wrong with the translation. She is also dead serious about her proposal.

    Since I have had many debates here regarding the uncivil laws found in Islam and the common reply from Muslim is usually these laws are situational and only belonged in the past, I like to note the woman in the video is describing just such a situation where these laws can be applied. Not 1400 years ago, but today. It is all Shariia certified and is no different from what the prophet, the ultimate example for all Muslims, practiced through his ghazwat (raids) of tribes, villages and cities of Arabia. If they are none Muslims he sanctioned their enslavement or killing. Of course women were made into sex slaves for his and his warriors’ pleasure.

  9. I would believe that she could be a Kuwaiti Terry Jones. He has about 8 followers, I wonder how many she has? THAT’S all that really matters, right?

  10. But she’s not the Kuwaiti Terry Jones.
    She herself is following the Saudi Terry Joneses.
    Who in their turn are following a1400 years old Terry jones.

  11. Yes, I’m sure that is more like it Aafke.

  12. I find it incredible that a woman would advocate such a thing…I wonder if she would be OK with her husband doing it. What bothers me more is that supposedly some scholars say this is islamic….how in the hell are msulims not supposed to be confused with what their faith says? If what MoQ says is right talk about mental gymnastics for those who say it isn’t islamic. She mentioned Chechnya…I believe that is Muslim majority. I find it interesting that she suggested that. Is it that any Muslims who are not arab are not really muslim and therefore can be used in such a horrible way? I swear this religion gets goofier by the day! For a supposedly simple religion, Islam is damn confusing. And Muslims wonder why nonmuslims view them in a less than glowing light? This crazy woman is one reason…and by extension Islam as she is advocating it.

  13. sorry…rewatched it and realized she wants to take the POWs that Chechnya captures…most likely nonmuslims.

  14. i totally agree with oby, what the world has come to now and its people !!! Islam faith is perpetually being degraded !!!

  15. ‘Islam faith is perpetually being degraded’

    is it? Or are they (Salafi/Wahabbi) just putting it back in order after all the years of it being degraded/diluted with colonialism etc?

  16. I think she’s mentally off- and has drunk the “Men NEED sex, it’s their right!” KoolAid. I’m guessing she also thought this would help her win an election. I also wouldn’t be surprised if she’s desparately looking for an alternative to men (perhaps her own) taking other wives.

    @MoQ It is my understanding that according to Shariah, the OTHER side has to be taking slaves first (I am not saying that makes everything ok- just clarifying). It is also my understanding that though the man has the “right” to his slave-girls- she has the “right” to say no. However, I do understand how unenforceble that would be and how the power deferential makes things akward. But it is not always so straightforward in application. I spoke with some elders here who remember slavery from their childhood. It was the female slaves trying to seduce the masters that was often an issue (in the case of this family- no luck). They were hoping to get pregnant because then they would be free and a wife, not a slave. Really the whole system is for another time in human development.

  17. Im on my way out but this post has really caught my attention being that my mother is a Christian woman from the country mentioned and I dont mean Kuwait!
    Just FYI there is no man in Chechyna, even amongst whom people consider the worst of the worst the “Mujahideen” who believe this…………………………. but guess what when the Arabs came to “help” defend Chechyna from the Russians some ignorant among them brought this idea. And I have a whole story about that.

    More to come.

  18. Sandy – ohh, from when the slave, that can be killed whitout any punishment for his owner, has the right to say no to the rape? wow.
    http://www.glamour.com/magazine/2008/02/sex-slaves-in-darfur

    only for your info – those Arab Janjaweeds are all muslims. what a surprise, all the sex slaves are…non muslims.
    of course, you are free to believe to any fairy tales about islam-not-endorsing-slavery.

  19. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPEy5ZOroNo&feature=related here you see a well renowned islamic scholar, Zakir Naik, explaining, why the forced sex with women captured in war is halal in Islam

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Video:_Shaykh_al-Huwayni:_%22When_I_want_a_sex_slave,_I_just_go_to_the_market_and_choose_the_woman_I_like_and_purchase_her%22

    and another shaiks advocating sex slavery or slavery in general.
    get it straight, ppl – islam is advocating slavery.

  20. She should have offered herself when Kuwait was attacked by Iraq. Such a sick ideology.

    One freind fron Ghana told me. Islam was started from Arab but today its losing from Arab.
    Its so unfortunate that we hear so many bad news from Arab. But sure there is some extra spices adding up by media too.

  21. Kuwaiti woman supports sex-slavery for women to protect muslim men from “adultery or corruption”! Interesting and disgusting at the same time.

    Not that keeping a sex slave would in itself constitute adultery or corruption. Women taken captive as prisoners of war and then enslaved as concubines is sanctioned by the Koran, you see: “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you.” — Koran 4:24

    This is the sort of Koranic provision that Muslims in the West routinely insist is a relic of the past, never to be revived again among Muslims. How is it that Salwa Al-Mutairi came to Misunderstand Islam so spectacularly?

    Note also the hollowness of Islamic morality as Salwa Al-Mutairi envisions it. Islamic leaders routinely castigate the West for its immorality, but their alternative is this veneer of morality covering barbarity, brutality, and the use of women as commodities.

  22. As predictable as night follows day. This reference to Quran 4:24 is one that many who have not read the whole chapter will refer to before their brains revive from that I-was-kidnapped-by-the-Martians trip to Mars.

    Obviously no one will read that to have a relation with a slave girl, the same criteria needs to be fulfilled as that of a regular relation. And that she gets to have your name for the offsprings. And that you need to provide for her exactly what you do for your wife and kids.

    And this mofo kuwaiti here wants to bring girls from chechnya, who would ideally look up to a normal life, in the “cradle of Islam”, only to be dressed from belly button down and serve endless coffee to the sanafi marred bigots who only know of Islam, what it is not.

  23. THE HOLY SINNER – if a moslem wants to have legal offsprings from his slavegirl, he has to set her free and marry her – then his offsprings will be considered his heirs – read something from Malik´s Muwatta.
    Slaves cant inherit, they are to be inherited.
    “Obviously no one will read that to have a relation with a slave girl, the same criteria needs to be fulfilled as that of a regular relation” – aha, so you have to pay her mahr? … you are incredible funny.
    your prophet did not approved manumission, when the slavegirl can be used as the sex toy.
    Provide for slavegirl – ahahahah – when she is old, no more attractive and cant work – you can earn a big hasanat when you set her free – you gain a big reward from allah and you save funds – you do not need to provide old carlin, you can buy new sex toy.

  24. HOLY SINNER – can you cite me relevant ayah that moslem is obliged to marry his slavegirl? pls.

  25. This woman is only repeating what the scholars say, which is what Islam says.
    The problem starts with religion. Christianity, including Jesus, also condones slavery, and the murder of entire tribes ”but keep the young girls who have not known a man unto yourselves”. Pretty close to what Islam says of course. So close as to make it clear where they got it from. As long as religions have these primitive misogynist views on women and slavery and rape in their holy books this type of stuff will come back.

    Islam and Shariah allow for genocide and enslavement and rape of slaves. And the example of the prophet an his followers doing all these things solidifies this ”divine concept”. And so it will come back to us.
    Ali had 18 slavegirls when he died. And remember he traded them for new ones. he could afford it, so he can do it.

    And this woman is not the only one, the followers of Anjem Choudary in England always come back with this: ”We will conquer you and make slaves of your women. ” I have heard Anjem say it himself on a video. It’s not one person. This stuff is fundamental in Shariah, the rules are defined, how to take slaves, what to do with them, etc. It’s not made up, it all in the religion.

    Dogma stops you from thinking clearly. It stops you from applying real morality. it stops morality itself from developing and advancing to a higher level.
    The problem is religion itself. Religion forces you to believe stuff which you know is not right. This slavery and rape issue is a very good example. Once you have to believe and follow what your religion says,mwhile you know it says things which are wrong, you start eroding your own mind, and your own morals.
    These bronze age religions come from a time when war and slavery and ownership and rape of women were ”normal”. These things are now considered evil. But the holy books still follow these backwards concepts.

    So what happens is that you either have to go into Intellectual Acrobatics mode, the ”It was really different and slaves had lots of rights and were treated really well” or ”This is taken out of context” or ”You must see it in it’s own time” or ”This is misunderstood” etc. etc.

    Or you keep it simple and follow scripture, like this woman, like the scholars in Saudi and Kuwait, and England and everywhere, and simply state: the book says it’s ok, the prophet and his companions did it so it’s super ok, so we should do it.

  26. Aafke, can you cite me exact verse from NT where Jesus is saying “but keep the young girls who have not known a man unto yourselves”.
    I would be very grateful if you can provide it.

  27. The old testament tells the children of Israel to murder everybody but to keep the virgin girls onto themselves. Jesus tells slaves not to rebel against their masters. The new testament does not revoke the slavery rules of the old testament.
    Anyway, as the Old Testament is fully part of the bible all of it’s rules still apply for Christians, for example the problems with gay people.
    The problem is that if you are a believer you have to deal with these so-called God given rules about, stoning, slavery, rape, etc. And modern morally more evolved people do it by applying Intellectual acrobatics, and less advanced people take it as written.
    My problem with religions is that I can see how they screw and corrupt people’s minds and morals and development into higher understanding. This woman is but one example of how they keep dragging us back into a dark age of misery and suffering.

  28. In the Causus regions of former USSR some Muslim men marry Christian woman. They keep them as wives, not sex slaves. I was going to share some stories of some ideas that some Arab Muslims brought with them when they came to the war, but the scholars amongst the mujahideen, taught them that they were wrong in their beliefs regarding kidnapping non muslim women and making them their personal slaves or sex slaves.
    I ve decided not to get into details about it because it would just make Muslims look bad when in fact these people were very ashamed of their incorrect belief and thank God there were no cases of rape, it was stopped at the very mentioning of it.
    Of course the haters on here will not give these people the excuse that they make mistakes like everyone else in life, albeit very big mistakes. The fact is they were corrected before any harm was done, but yes there was talk of the idea.
    Of course the Godless Russians raped, killed and maimed, women and children when ever they got the chance.
    I wonder why that isnt mentioned, oh right because this has turned into an anti Islam blog.

  29. Carol,

    I have addressed you as a Muslim on here when in fact now come to think of it, I cant remember if in fact you are/were at sometime?
    Forgive me if I was wrong concerning your faith, do you believe in Islam as the only true (today) religion?

  30. @Sandy,

    “It is my understanding that according to Shariah, the OTHER side has to be taking slaves first”

    Not true. There is no text that indicates that. There is also precedence against that statement. Check the story of Banu Quraizah and their enslaved women. The acts of the prophet and his followers can be though of as precedence cases (in a similar way to how laws are interpreted using precedence cases in courts). The hadith is full slavery cases. Ali, the cousin of the prophet and his son in-law, was particularly fond of slave girls. You will find many hadiths about his ventures including beatings and forceful sex all were sanctioned by the prophet when he was asked about it.

    “Really the whole system is for another time in human development.”

    I agree with that statement, but don’t you see that religion is a hurdle to human development? Even 1400 years later, people with bad outdated morals can refer to laws like this and have the credibility of them being sanctioned by the deity and its prophet. Do not forget this just happened and continues to happen in Sudan.

    Note this is not just an Islamic issue. Christianity has it also. As an example, the Catholic Church has and continues to support a campaign against the use of condoms in the face of an Aids epidemic in Africa. Literally condemning millions of the under educated people to death. Similar to Islam this is done in the name of pleasing the deity.

    Yes we can chalk off all the bad text as metaphorical or situational. However, it will always be there for someone to interpret it with severe consequences for humanity.

  31. “Abused people often become abusers”. Perhaps this is the woman’s problem? Is there any wonder why non-Muslims are not fond of Islam? There are so many reasons not to be.This woman is sick. Perhaps she’s sick of her husband. I certainly would not want to be a maid in her house. The stories of abuses done to maids in the ME countries are disgusting anyway. I will say again that ‘thinking people’ realize that many things in a book ‘oh so many years ago’ are not applicable in today’s society. People should evolve and grow – not stay in the dark ages. If you want to stay in the dark ages then stay there totally. Give up the planes, fancy cars, etc. etc. etc. and live your life as it was back in the days the Koran came into being.

  32. Jessica, Marrying women from another religion and thereby making sure that their offspring will be raised in your religion is of course a comparatively nice way of enforcing your own religion and culture on others. However, the point is that these men could have attacked the villages, kill all men and boys, and enslave the women and girls and rape them at will. This would have been perfectly in accordance with Islamic religious law, teachings, and the example of the prophet and his companions.

    Now of course you are much more nice and have better morals than the religion you chose, and so you don’t like to have this pointed out to you. In fact you seem to be so genuinely upset that you think you need to call anybody who points out these immoral teachings and Sharia laws of Islam a ”hater”. But this is not the case. One can discern and point out immoral teachings in religions, and in the case of immorality Judaism, Christianity and Islam are really on a par, and not hate.
    Being rational and honest is very different from hating.

  33. Wendy, but what about the scholars who taught her these ideas? They aren’t abused women!

  34. ‘Forgive me if I was wrong concerning your faith, do you believe in Islam as the only true (today) religion?’

    Carol, I suggest you not answer that question as it might hurt the feelings of some of your readers and after all, they ARE your brothers/sisters in this world.

    uh oh, I think my inner bitch is showing. Sometimes I just cannot control her 😉

  35. Anyway, Carol has spoken about her beliefs clearly on other posts, I suggest you look them up Jessica.
    It’s not Carol’s fault that some Kuwaiti woman went on the media expressing her support for the archaic rules put to her by islamic scholars. If you think you have a bone to pick I suggest you write to those scholars and tell them where they go wrong.

  36. @MoQ,
    I am not much convinced by hadith so there’d really be no point in reading them. If you say the stories are there I believe you- but it doesn’t mean I believe the stories.

    I don’t really see religion as a deterrent to human development. I see it as something that can be used as a deterrent- and it certainly has been used that way. But that is more a reflection of the people than the religion. People who want to act badly, will use whatever justification is at hand to do so. Because they’re bad.

  37. @Sandy,

    I did not rest my case on Hadith. Quraan sanctions slavery, Hadith just provides support.

    “People who want to act badly, will use whatever justification is at hand to do so. Because they’re bad.”

    True, but religion gives such behavior the justification that is sanctioned by the deity. Hence, in places like Saudi Arabia it is hard to argue against the rules of Shariia, because you will be classified as a person who argues against the rules of Allah.

  38. As much as I wish this is a joke, a sick joke; “Scholars” in Saudi Arabia have repeatedly shown us that they are serious when they make their absurd translation of Muslim scripture. It has become evident in the past few decades, that their translations of Muslim scripture serves their own hidden agenda. It seems to me that they are doing everything they are not suppose to by creating loopholes in hopes to escape prosecution from God and their fellow Muslim brothers and sisters. Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, was never cruel to non-Muslims like people are these days. It is a truly sad phenomenon but I hope we can make a difference by educating the ignorant and treating people the way we would like to be treated.

    Have a wonderful day

  39. Aafke – I dont have time to look things up, thats why I asked a simple question addressed at someone who can clearly answer herself. I have a life besides this blog wich takes 5 mins every few days if that, seems like you are the guard dog though and never miss anything, keep up the good work! So what do you do with your time when your not busy trying to deface Islam? Feel free not to answer (although I expect you will spend lots of time fuming before you write back something nasty or insulting, lol) cause Im travelling soon annd wont be back to reread your comment, although that may be even more beneficial to your ego.

    And
    Lynn

    when I suggested to Carol to not reveal our sisters personal business, it was because it wasnt her own story, and we wouldnt want to hurt her. Anything Carol could offer about that other woman would be just speculation anyway. So your wrong AGAIN in your comparisons. Here I was addressing Carol about herself, which is her business.

    And btw u dont seem like a Bitch just dumb! Of course only you and those fortunate enough to know you know how true that statement is.

    Gosh Carol it seems that all the Muslims have left your blog, noone seems to be up to debating with all your hater friends.

    I know Im not the only one sick of them. Like I said I have a life and wont be back either…………… like many I know who have left your blog cause of its anti Islamic content. It kinda seems like a ploy to pretend to be aimed at Islam and Muslims affairs and their lives (or in particular Saudis) while in reality trying to make fools of em. That is what you were trained in isnt it, pretending gathering intelligence, etc?
    May Allah recover you and guide you.
    If for any reason you want to address anything I said CAROL you may write me personally, you know where to find me.

    All the rest of you haters can just fume and gossip amongst yourselves and I wont even hear about it!

    SEE YA………………………….

  40. heh, hehehe!

  41. @MoQ,
    In spite of what a few scholars said- even Saudi’s idea of sharia law does not include the taking prisoner of foreign non-Muslim sex slaves.

    I would have to research what history says about the practice of war booty and the early Muslims- and what Muhammad said about it, to really respond to whether Sharia can really condone what this woman said. And it’s probably hard to get an unsullied picture of all that. Personally, in other instances, I’ve seen Muslims promote certain versions of events because it then justifies what they themselves would like to be allowed to do. So, while without having done all the research it requires, I can only say, I am not convinced by your version of what Islam says on the matter- but I cannot show you to be in error at this time. I do know yours is a better than average educated opinion, so I know your not just making stuff up.

    @Jessica,
    I am Muslim, and I’m definately still on the blog. I know of another that posts less frequently but regularly.
    Anyway, if how you behave here is indicative of how you always behave I hope you get the help you need. If it’s only the blog that does it to you- it probably is best you leave.

  42. I want to share this video with you all, it’s really, really good. It’s quite intellectual, but the maker, ”Qualia Soup” make brilliant videos, this one is about morality. He says some things in it which I find very pertinent to the discussion here, and he says it better than I can.
    I also love the way he illustrates them and how he puts the videos together.
    It’s so good!
    Please watch and enjoy, and come back on the video and the subject under discussion here.
    (best to watch in HD because when I didn’t I lost part of the right side of the video)

  43. This video very nicely shows that morality can certainly exist without reference to a higher being/creator. However, not all people of faith think that people of no faith as “escaping morality”. In fact, I’ve known many non-believer, agnositic, atheists who were very moral decent good people.

    Truth is bigger than what can be logically proven. We cannot provide conclusive evidence on many things. However, I do think that those things which cannot be proven- should they harm others or violate human rights are not acceptable in society. While I can easily see that one does not need religion to be moral- that does not constitute proof that there is no moral God. And if I respect agnostics and atheists it would be nice if they could return the favour- without sneering at my ignorant belief in “fairy tales” but many do not. Because people are people- and neither religion or lack thereof will make a certain percentage of people tolerant, or impart upon them manners.

  44. aaffke – you fail to provide the NT quote -very telling
    can you tell me, you, the big specialist to Christianity, if the Jesus owned slaves?
    this can be an indication.
    – Mohamed had no qualms to rape war booty – see Rayhanna and Safiya´s cases. Jihad/Ghazwa in order to acquire slaves – again, all this can be followed from Quran, hadith and seerah – so people denying it will have a hard time.
    all OT injuctions valid for Christians 😀 😀 😀 aha, so they are obliged to stone adulterers because it it written in OT even if Jesus clearly revoked it? wow.
    as far as I know, he revoked most of OT as irrevelant – but I can understand that in order make islam look better you need a bit darker background.
    gay people – hmm, can you cite me Jesus saying that Christians are obliged to kill them? pls.
    you know, moslems are doing the same things as Mohammad, christians try to do the same as Jesus. different personalities, different outcomes. this difference is called ethics and so called golden rule, introduced by Jesus.

  45. For whoever is interested

    Matthew 5:17-18 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

    And Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.

  46. I watched with a locked-jaw Salwa al-Mutairi’s full/expanded interview on another website along with the translated transcript:

    http://www.translatingjihad.com/2011/06/video-kuwaiti-activist-i-hope-that.html

    When Muslim Sheikhs discuss the topic of sexual slavery of women, which is allowed in the Qur’an, it comes out a bit politically incorrect even to the taste of the majority of Muslims, including Jessica here on this thread, who have long forgotten that slavery is a well- established institution in Islam. But now some Muslims are demanding its return. So Muslim spinmeisters are now advocating the embarrassing, but legal, topic through the mouths of Muslim women.

    According to the video transcript, Ms. Mutairi who was nice enough to put the minimum age of 15 for slave girls, Christian Jews or other, to be sold. She demanded the immediate establishment of slave agencies just like agencies for maids, where the slave girls will earn a whopping 50 Kuwaiti Dinar monthly and in return will cook, clean, take care of the kids and be the slave of the wife during the day. But her job does not end there; at night, whenever Mutairi is not in the mood, then her husband will not stray too far away from the house, since it is halal for the husband to have sex with the slave girls without any marriage or unnecessary paper to satisfy his sexual pleasures. Better do it at home under the watchful eyes of the wife and kids only for 50 Dinars. Wow, what a deal!

    Mutairi was especially interested in Russian slave girls since Muslim men do prefer them blond. Russian, European and American blond women, better watch out, the Muslims are coming! The plan is for Muslims in Chechnya to kidnap Russian girls after a jihadist operation and then will sell them to the Kuwaitis. The price of the sale per her suggestion would be a whopping 2500 Kuwaiti dinars.

    Mutairi, who regards non-Muslim girls as subhuman, talked on the video as a holier than thou “free” Muslim woman, and did use the expression “free women” referring to herself and all Muslim women, as she was wearing her black Islamic garb covering everything except her face, while advocating such immoral insanity as a right from Allah to Muslims. How pathetic and sub-human like!

  47. ‘And Jesus himself was a practicing Jew.’

    One who could eat pork since he said : What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.'”

    So, perhaps it was only those laws that he believed came from God that he was not going to destroy not the ones that he thought were man made but attributed to ‘God’? Didn’t he say something about He who is without sin, cast the first stone? Is that keeping the stoning ‘law’ or taking it away?

  48. One of the comments he made in the video which I liked is when he talked about ”capacity for informed consent”, and ”When people who have been made subservient collaborate in their own oppression, this is cause for increased concern”, and ”Those who defend their abuser are the most comprehensively enslaved”

    I think that Salwa Al Mutairi could be a prime example of somebody who is comprehensibly enslaved, after being denied the capacity for informed consent.

    Because we often ask ourselves, ”Men yes, but how can fellow women condone stuff like being regarded as; women being weak second rate non-sentient beings, polygamy, child marriage and rape?” I think this explains why.

  49. @Lynn,
    Yes, Jesus did also say that. But everything I’ve ever read from CHristian sources indicates he was a practicing Jew and that the “law and prophets” is the lingo of the day for the Jewish Old Testament (which actually isn’t exactly the same as the Christian one- but whatever). The “interpreting” all revolves around the term “fulfill” and is as convoluted as any religious text explanation I have heard. Anyway I only mean to supply the quote- it gets interpreted many ways. There are even some Christians that won’t eat pork. Also remember Jesus made the “stoning” remark when vigilante justice was about to be carried out. That’s different than after “due process”.

    @Aafke,
    I think DEFINITELY Salwa Al Mutairi is without the capacity for informed consent. I don’t know what the origins of her problem is- I suspect in another culture she’d be a different (yet similar) type of disfunctional person saying outrageous things while trying to act like they’re normal. She’s very fringy.

  50. NT, I really don’t see why I should have to spell it out for you. Any Christian should know this. Where’s your bible do you ever read it? As a child we went through the bible systematically every year from genesis to the apocalypse. Anyway, a simple Google search would show you these passages.
    That’s why I normally don’t feel I need to pre-digest and spit it out.
    You will have to take into account that the word ”slave” in the bible was in translation changed to ”servant”, ” bond-servant” ”bond-man/maid” or ”maid”.
    In Leviticus it is made very clear that the bible condones slavery:
    enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

    The New Testament on slavery:
    Timothy: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.

    Luke, The servant (slave) will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.”

    Peter: Servants (slaves), be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward.

    But of course all this approval of slavery, blackmail, rape, beating and killings should not surprise us. The Abrahamic religions are left-overs of written down superstitions and archaic barbaric rules from an archaic and barbaric time.
    The problems come when modern, more morally developed people want to integrate these old fashioned religions into modern life.
    And sorry for the paste copy
    And of course I could do the same for the Quran but I don’t have to, a simple google search will give you all the passages.

    Edited: too much paste copy.
    Moderator

  51. ‘Also remember Jesus made the “stoning” remark when vigilante justice was about to be carried out.’

    John 8
    1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

    11“No one, sir,” she said.

    “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

  52. @Lynn, Oops- my bad. I should have looked it up like I did the other one. I actually now remember that I’m mixing it all up with a joke my brother once told me….but I digress. Jesus had many issues with the Pharisees- I would say that is part of the context of this story- that and as he is actually a prophet (and/or God) he could directly intervene. I note he acted in this individual case but made no statement on changing the law. However if your point it that the Bible is contradicting itself- that could be true too.

  53. No, what I am trying to say is that perhaps the ‘law’ as the Jewish leaders were writing it and teaching it were NOT from God and that is why Jesus was needed to come and ‘show’ the law to prove that these were just man-made laws that they were talking about. I’m not a Christian but that is my understanding. Perhaps someone knows better than I, they can correct me if I am wrong.

  54. Quote: I would have to research what history says about the practice of war booty and the early Muslims- and what Muhammad said about it, to really respond to whether Sharia can really condone what this woman said.

    Sandy, the hadith are very clear about this, as well as the Quran. Both make it very clear that female captives, married or not, are fair game for sexual exploitation. This was, of course, the norm in warfare from time immortal (or better, immoral).

    The problem I see here is that Muslims have painted themselves into a corner. The problem with the “Islam is perfect”, “the Quran is perfect” and “Mohammad is a noble example” positions is that any inconsistency, any bad verse or any action contrary to basic moral principles can be used against them. Since Muslims must (and do) take that position (a central point of theology), then it becomes easy for critics of Islam to hammer them on the head with their own verses and stories. Muslims then are forced to make excuses and defend the undefensible. Unfortunately there is not way out of this dilemma.

    There are tens of thousands of Muslim websites out there, but try to find one that clearly admits that Mohammad conducted a series of unprovoked surprise raids on peaceful neighbors, looting their possessions, enslaving people and raping captives. These are clearly what happened, time after time, and these actions are clearly permitted for Muslims in the Quran, yet Muslims will not only ignore these actions, but even deny them. For obvious reasons.

    Moe, yes he was – read the above.

    It is very hard to solve a problem that one pretends does not exist.

  55. @Sandy,

    “I would have to research what history says about the practice of war booty and the early Muslims- and what Muhammad said about it, to really respond to whether Sharia can really condone what this woman said.”

    I do encourage you to do that for yourself not to respond to me. Also research all other aspects of wars of the prophet and determine for yourself if you think he was moral. As you do that please make sure to be honest with yourself on whether you are avoiding clear evidence in favor of the rosy picture some apologists paint for you.

    Happy readings!!!

  56. Flame, please read the translation of Verse 24 of Chapter 4 from the Quran. Here is the link for your reference. If we were close by, I would have shown you reference books but could not find them on the net. So let the link suffice for now… http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/archive/index.php/t-4540.html

    This makes all the conditions very clear. The word being used here, “SLAVE” is a very literal translation of the arabic word for it. Most of the words that define status of mankind are usually metaphoric and need to be understood with reference to the incident or period of time when the verses were revealed. Which people outside the religion of Islam are not supposed to do or do not do. But then, that does not give anyone a right to misquote or purposely misrepresent any part of the religion.

  57. Jay Kactuz, perhaps the confidence with which you posted your comment on unprovoked attacks and women being “fair game for sexual exploitation”, you can provide some historic facts or even references for it. Let me see you give some please.

  58. @Sandy,

    “And if I respect agnostics and atheists it would be nice if they could return the favour- without sneering at my ignorant belief in “fairy tales” but many do not.”

    Let me explain this to you, so it is clear. It is very easy to misunderstand criticism of an ideology, in this case religion, as criticism of the person.

    We do respect you regardless of your religious believes. Saying we respect your believes will be unwarranted flattery, which goes against the concept of honesty and respect.

  59. OK…Jay (or anyone else)

    This might seem like a stupid question but I have always wondered IF the Quran was from God and IF Mohammed wanted to start a new religion why in the world did they write down and record every nasty act? Did no one think that this might be a problem when talking about a good and kind God and a good and kind Prophet? After all these actions are not the actions of a sainted person.

    If the Quran is for all time and all people did they not think that the ones reading it in the future might have an issue with some of the stuff? I mean who wants to convert to a religion that enslaves your people? The way it is written seems to me to be more of a historical record rather than a Holy book. Then again, I think the old and new testament are history books of sort too.

  60. “I mean who wants to convert to a religion that enslaves your people?”

    At the time it was convert or else. It was not about converting people, because the religion had convincing reasoning.

    Think about this in the terms of an ambitious person from a noble family who lost his father before he was born and had no way of reaching a powerful position in the tribe. His uncles were in the way. He was able to form religious dogma to get the outcasts of society to join him then lesser tribes of Madina to support him and W-allah a new tribal warlord came into existence.

    The religion is in essence a codification of tribal laws of the time, including the nasty bits about slavery. Start looking at Islam through that lens and everything falls into place perfectly.

  61. Wooooooooow!!

  62. Holy, ok, how about events at Banu al-Mustaliq? Look it up if you are not familiar with the story in the hadith.

    Must warn you that the old guy here once wrote an essay on what the hadith say compared to how about 20 different Muslim websites tell it. As with so many stories in the traditions, it is interesting, very human, possibly historical, tragic and enlightening. It begins with the “the prophet heard that the Banu Al Mustaliq were gathering against him (to attack him)” and ends with the “necklace affair” and its sad aftermath.

    Read it and give me your interpretation of events, and I’ll share how I see it. You take care.

  63. HOLY SINNER –
    your very weak link is disproved by this fattwa –
    http://www.islam.tc/cgi-bin/askimam/ask.pl?q=14421&act=view
    “Each soldier was then entitled to have relations ONLY with the slave girl over which he was given the RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP and NOT with those slave girls that were not in his possession. This RIGHT OF OWNERSHIP was given to him by the ?Ameerul-Mu’mineen? (Head of the Islamic state.) Due to this right of ownership, It became lawful for the owner of a slave girl to have intercourse with her. ”
    “The LEGAL possession that a Muslim receives over a slave woman from the ?Ameerul-Mu’mineen? (the Islamic Head of State) gives him legal credence to have coition with the slave woman in his possession, just as the marriage ceremony gives him legal credence to have coition with his wife. In other words, this LEGAL POSSESSION is, in effect, a SUBSTITUTE of the MARRIAGE CEREMONY. ”
    so by right of ownership – no mahr is needed.”
    . A similar example can be found in the slaughtering of animals; that after a formal slaughtering process, in which the words, ?Bismillahi Allahu Akbar? are recited, goats, cows, etc.; become ?Halaal? and lawful for consumption, whereas fish becomes ?Halaal? merely through ‘possession’ which substitutes for the slaughtering.

    In other words, just as legal possession of a fish that has been fished out of the water, makes it Halaal for human consumption without the initiation of a formal slaughtering process; similarly legal possession of a slave woman made her Halaal for the purpose of coition with her owner without the initiation of a formal marriage ceremony.
    I think this imam explained it very nice.
    your reference to quran is completely flawed – there is nothing about slavegirls, only about free women.
    so next time do your homework better.

  64. Oby, what we call “nasty” was not so regarded at the time. Slavery and rape of captives were the norm. Killing and conquering others were seen as a sign of strength and divine favor. And, of course, this wasn’t just for Muslims or Arabs.

    It wasn’t until the Enlightenment (a very board term), starting about mid15th century and evolving up to mid 20th century, that these notions were rejected.

    My opinion is that the hadith and Quran are fairly consistent and reflect the mores of the age. They well may be accurate accounts of events even if there are no outside sources for confirmation (by non-Muslims, much less archeological evidence) of the history / stories in Islamic traditions. It wasn’t until the Rashidun expansion that we see non-Muslim sources take an interest in the Arab peoples and their conquests. The problem for Muslims is that the hadith and Quran reflect a morality that is rejected today, even by Muslims, except by Muslims, who ignore it (or deny it) because they cannot condemn it. Can you imagine a Muslim saying “yes, my prophet was a murderer, slaver and rapist, but ‘praise be upon him’?” It doesn’t work very well. That is why moral issues are off limits in islam, except of course for what non-Muslims do.

    There is also a very fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity, at least. Christians and the West can take responsibility and condemn their own sins, as they do, without much damage. I mean, we can say that the murder of millions of Indians was wrong or condemn the crusaders for their brutality and bloodshed – and there is little reflection on Christian dogma. Now a Muslim cannot condemn jihad or the ruthless wars of Mohammad without inflicting serious wounds upon Islam and its moral code. This is why Muslims are so inflexible about the character (or ‘sanctity’ as per many Muslims websites) of Mohammad. It is an all or nothing thing. A Muslim cannot say “yes Mohammad did evil” and remain a Muslim, so a Muslim must forever argue that those actions in their own writings never existed or are misunderstood.

    Have you ever seen a Muslim website cite the “I am made victorious with terror…” statement by Mohammad found twice in the hadith? I never have. It is there but for some reason Muslims seem to ignore it. That is self-deceit but it is also human nature.

    Anyway that is my take.

    On the other hand, 45-50 years ago the idea of a female sex slave would have had its attractions to me. I probably fantasized about it. Of course, instead of a Ursula Andress or Rachel Welch, because I was poor I would have ended up with an 80 year-old toothless, mean fat old lady to be my personal sex object. Maybe sex slaves are not a good idea.

  65. Aafke – did you ever posed to your enlightened atheist brain the question, why the practice of slavery was disappeared without any qualm?
    so, you can find only verses that are calling to slaves to be obedient to their masters – but no verse giving christians right to enslave others.
    what is even more interesting, you failed to cite (Gal 3, 28) – stating equality of all human beings in Christ – no difference between Greek or Jew, freeman or slave, man or woman.
    as for your diatribes against religious dogmas – you, as the atheist – atheism is only slightly better in the count of dead bodies as islam.
    when the atheism starts to be official ideology, killing and slaughter begins.
    plus, do you remember this guy, Unabombero – very zealous atheist.
    Science was his religion 😀 😀 – Mao was atheist, Stalin the same – both gained their fame as the mass large scale murdererers. apparently the non-dogmatic thinking was not able to prevent them to do such things.

  66. @Flame,
    “The practice of slavery dissappeared withouth qualm”???? What????? I’d suggest you look at a history of slavery because I’ve never heard such a thing. That is an absolutely astounding statement.

  67. @MoQ,
    I do understand what you mean by the distinction between respecting a person and respecting their beliefs. But sneering about “fairy tales”, “superstition’ and a persons ignorance is not the only way to assert that one doesn’t accept another person’s beliefs. By choosing a rude way to do it- it also indicates a disrespect to the person. And it is certainly something I’ve encountered from Atheists. I’ve also met Atheists who are able to convey their disagreement with respect to people of faith without indicating they believe in any of what the person believes.

  68. Medieval canon lawyers concluded that slavery was contrary to the spirit of Christianity, and by the 11th century when almost all of Europe had been Christianized, the laws of slavery in civil law codes were now antiquated and unenforceable.
    The slave trade in England was abolished in 1102. – Do not forget that slavery was legal in Saudi Arabia was legal until…2007. and it was only the pressure of the international community, no islamic abolitionist movement ever existed.
    sooo, this cannot be said about islam. Do not forget, that demand for slaves in muslim countries was one of stimulus of viking raids.

  69. bukhari vol. 3 # 765 narrated kuraib; maimuna bint al-haret [one of mohammad’s wives] told mohammad that she had manumitted [set free] her slave girl without taking permission of the prophet. on the day it was her turn to be with the prophet, she said,” go you know, ”o” allah’s apostle, that i have manumitted my slave girl? he said have you really? she replied in the affirmative. he said, ” you would have gotten more reward if you had given her [the slave girl] to one of your maternal uncles. – soo, freeing a slavegirl when she can serve as the sex toy is usually gaining less reward in Allah´s eyes – really saying a lot about islam, shariah and prophet.

  70. Slavery was abolished in England in 1833. Slaving was a main economic force throughout much of the 18th century in the UK.

  71. Ending Slavery

    1847 Sweden
    1836 Portugal
    1822 Greece
    1823 Chile
    1854 Venezuela
    1863 Dutch colonies

    All of these are Christian, no?
    They freed their slaves as their society developed. They took whatever hundreds of years they wanted to.

  72. Slavery was abolished in 1962 in Saudi Arabia.

  73. Well, never you mind that there are no attractive Russian women left in Chechnya. She’d have to expand her sourcing operation elsewhere.

    And Jessica – Russian/Muslim marriages in Chechnya are extremely rare.

  74. 1822 Greece Sandy- you forgot that Greece was until this time occupied by Ottomans, and last slave market in Istambul was held… surprise surprise 1918 😀
    So you can found the occurence of last slave trade in mentioned countries – how many hundred years before the last slave was traded in respective countries. so how it comes that England was able to abolish slavery one thousand years sooner than enlightened islam? it was dark age, isn´it?
    if you are soo well informed- and what about Mauretania? slavery still seems to be prevalent here, only lately they abolished it – again, on the pressure from outside, not from inside.

  75. Slaving was a main economic force throughout much of the 18th century in the UK. – hope you have plenty of records of slave markets. awaiting the plenty links from you.

  76. @Flame,

    “when the atheism starts to be official ideology, killing and slaughter begins”

    Atheism is not an ideology. I think you are confused between Atheism, which is a lack of believe, with communism and other political ideologies.

    There is no common ideology for atheists other than sharing the common rejection in believing in a deity without proof.

    You are also avoiding the fact that Christianity allowed slavery. You are doing the same thing Muslim do with the quraan. You pick the verse which suits you and suits you, while ignoring the many others. Even he verses you chose do not instruct Christians to free the slaves. All it does is put rules of how to treat the slaves, thus sanctioning the practice.

  77. @Flame,
    Plenty of links are not allowed on the blog. Besides which you should really do your own research. But these two will get you started. The English slave trade is hardly a secret , but rather a well-known fact of British History.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/uk/in-the-footsteps-of-bristols-slave-traders-530373.html

    http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/slavery/europe/liverpool.aspx

    Yes, Mauretania was very late in abolishing slavery. But Mauretania is not Christian and I was responding that the Christian world did NOT end slavery very quickly at all- in response to your astounding claims that it did. Rather it did as society developed. And it is no secret that on the whole the Islamic counties are not as developed so no surprise they are lagging behind. I would say abolishing slavery has not much to do with religion but rather the development of a society. And Christians and Muslims are not the only ones to have had slaves.

  78. @Flame

    Oh and England abolished slavery in 1833 – Saudi Arabia in 1962. England abolished slavery 129 years earlier than Saudi- and yet Christianity is more than 600 years older than Islam. So if you want to credit Christianity with ending slavery- then I will credit Islam and that would make Islam by far more effective.

  79. @Sandy,

    “But sneering about “fairy tales””

    So in essence you do not want us to tell you exactly how we think about these ideologies. We should package it in politically correct language to avoid offending.

    Look, there are many ideas out there that suck. They run the gamut from bad investment ideas to bad diets and everything in between. We do not package our response to them in mild politically correct way.

    Religion is definitely in that same category and has been responsible for many issues causing human misery. Religion also has the extra problem of attracting conmen, who do not hesitate to prey on the gullibility of others to gain prestige, power and money.

    Political correctness and respect for these ideologies is not a way to bring the issues into focus. Bad ideas do not deserve our respect and we should make our thoughts very clear about them.

  80. The Abrahamic religions all support slavery. In their holy books. There is no need to dispute this, you can read for yourself. Neither Jesus nor Mohammed abolished slavery. The Quran is very clear: a man can rape any woman his right hand possesses.The hadith tell a lot of details about how people were made into slaves and how women were raped and traded by the prophet and his companions. Now even if you do no not believe any of the hadith are true this does not affect what is written in the Quran, and, at the very least it proves the stance on slavery of the early muslims who collected or invented the hadith.

    Given that both the Quran and hadith, (to which the great majority of Muslims give more weight than the Quran, Shariah is far more hadith based than Quran based, praying is completely hadith based, etc.) then the scholars who instructed this woman on these bizarre ideas of institutionalized sex-slavery for Christian (non-Muslim) women, have solid support from the holy scriptures and thereby Allah.

    That is the crux of the matter. This is the problem Muslims need to face and deal with. Salwa Al Mutairi only put this problem in the lime light. Slavery, and sexual slavery (equals lifelong rape) for women is firmly entrenched and supported by Islam.
    Looking away from this issue, or trying to argue around it does not solve anything. Muslims who do not like to see women raped in slavery need to stand up for their principals and do something constructive about this.

  81. Dear Aafke – i asked you to provide me the unequivocal verse from NT – as is the verse about “what your right hand posess” from Quran.
    all you can provide are verses that are reflecting the slavery, not calling for enslaving others.
    ah, no common ideology for atheists – wow. so atheism is not communism? I do agree, only problem is, that communism is atheist.
    how it come, that atheism has no logical defence against such deviations? apparently, the fact that one does not believe in existence of god does not constitute proof of better/equal ethics, based upon logic. so how you can explain, that in the age of darkness, England was able to abolish slavery -and no bishop said that they are forbidding something that was explicitly allowed by Jesus.
    So if two people are equal in Christ, how one can own another? can you explain me it by the NT verses, how it is possible?
    if you said, that Christianity is condoning the practice, you surely can cite lot of verses that are in favour of slavery and see it as something positive.

  82. It is really a useless discussion to claim which ”religion” abolished slavery. No religion abolished slavery.
    The Abrahamic religion (being much of the same) all three support slavery.
    Slavery was abolished by people who could no longer tolerate it, despite the fiat given by the religion which happened to be prevalent in their country.

    The fact that it took such a struggle to abolish slavery was partly due to the support of God for slavery, a strong argument on the side of supporters of slavery. People who abolished slavery did so against the teachings of their religion, and the ones who abolished it in the 20th century did so because of pressure from the developed world.

  83. Sandy – I asked you to provide links about the 18 th century slave markets in England – YOU said that it was a main economic force throughout much of the 18th century in the UK.
    This part of history of UK is well documented, so it surprise me that you are not able to provide any link that would depict busy slave market in UK….
    so, when was held the last slave market in UK?
    If the slavery was abolished, it may be because no one used this institution – at least several hundreds years.
    so come on, if you say something, you should support it by some facts.

  84. If you are addressing Muslim’s in Saudi and/or the middle east, you do know that slavery has been abolished. Argo, there is no sex-slavery or anything of this sort.
    Yes, Saudi Arabia is a theocracy, nevertheless, according to international law slavery is illegal and that is why you do not see slaves filling the streets of Riyadh, etc.
    If you do compare religions, it is important to consider the time between the religions. Even though Islam might seem harsh to many, the Crusaders were not so nice either.
    I truly hope we can all get along but after reading the posts, it seems like a fools dream

  85. Slavery was abolished due to moral development, in opposition to the teachings of Abrahamic religion.

  86. @MoQ,
    I think manners, in general, are sadly underused in today’s society, and it becomes all the more relevant as populations grow and people of different ideas are forced to interact. Manners are different than political correctness. There are polite ways to say what you think. But at a minimum it would be nice if the same Atheists who insist that people of faith respect THEIR views- do the same in return. I feel the same way about people of faith being rude to Atheists. It goes both ways. If you insist you are owed respect and/or politeness- then you should give it in return.

    It is always a bit difficult when communicating on line- but I have dealt with Atheists who really feel superior while letting you know how ignorant you must be to belief such nonsense. And they get irate if a person of faith dares think they are wrong- because of course they are sooooo right about everything. Ironically, they are often not as logical as they think they are. I’ve also noticed that rude, superior people both of faith and not, are often not as knowledgable as they claim.

  87. @Flame,
    Scroll up. I put links.

  88. “But at a minimum it would be nice if the same Atheists who insist that people of faith respect THEIR views- do the same in return.”

    I certainly never ask for someone to respect my views, I let them stand on their merits. I think you should consider the same.

    You do have many ideas that stand on their own merit and they are respected. However, you want us to extend that to include all your ideas. I try to be polite, but I for one will not give blanket respect for every idea.

  89. NT read for yourself, google if you don’t want to read the whole thing.
    Both the old and new testament are full of verses on how to treat slaves, on how to beat them, the new testament on how slaves should be obedient to their masters etc. Paste copy will be editted so I suggest you read it up yourself. or google it. simple google search on Jesus and slavery and Islam and slavery, will give you all verses on a single page. No need to paste copy them here.

  90. @MoQ
    I think you are personalising this too much. I never said YOU! I generally don’t engage the rude people- at least not for long. And I talk to you here all the time.

    @Flame,
    Also, Christianity and the slave trade existed together into the 19th century not only in England and most of Europe but also North America and South America. How are those examples of Christianity ending slavery?

  91. We all have different moral standards, which we use to evaluate situations and/or people. Though, I have always found it necessary to respect people’s faiths and religions. I do not only do it when it comes to an idea that I like but to everything. I do tell them my opinion even if it goes against what they believe but I never disrespect them nor their ideas. Respect is the Foundation of morals and if your moral infrastructure lacks a foundation, there might be a serious issue in the horizon.

  92. I think also the definition of the word “respect” can be problematic in a discussion such as this.

  93. @Sandy, fair enough.

    @Moe Z,

    People should get automatic respect. That respect can be lost by a person’s actions, of course.

    Ideas should never be respected by default. They should be scrutinized first. Religions are ideologies by definition. Unfortunately religions when scrutinized do not pass and earn a position of respect.

  94. How could a Muslim ‘respect’ an atheist when their book of guidance tells them that they are the lowest of creatures?

  95. The question you should ask, how could a human…..??
    Do not get into specifics, it only leads to complications and an eruption of some unnecessary feelings and emotions.
    The Quran tells us to respect everyone!

  96. @Moe Z

    98:6 Sahih International
    Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

    i am not sure how it has anything to do with respect…

  97. Exact quote and reference Lynn?

  98. Sandy- I see only link of Holy Sinner -you did not put any links.
    -An English court case of 1569 involving Cartwright who had bought a slave from Russia ruled that English law could not recognise slavery. 😀
    In Smith v. Gould (1705–07) 2 Salk 666, Holt CJ stated that by

    “the common law no man can have a property in another.”
    Lord Henley LC said in Shanley v. Harvey (1763) 2 Eden 126, 127 that as

    “soon as a man sets foot on English ground he is free.”
    Can you explain me, why exists those provisions?
    the last line is very telling – no manumission, no money is needed.
    this does not exist in islam. never existed. even if the slave converts to islam, even that would not set him automatically free.

    Aaafke – If you were able to provide some verses, you would smash it with a great delight.
    so, you are simply not able to provide one single verse calling Christians to enslave others. only thing you able to repeat as the broken praying mill is that the slaves have to be obedient to their masters. you did not explained me how it is possible, according NT, that one human being can sold and purchase another one. go on, do not be so shy.
    plus, why you do not teach us about the strong logical barriers of atheism protecting atheists against totalitarian politics? we are all waiting to it. this will be surely very interesting.

  99. @Flame,
    My post is awaiting moderation. I think because of the links. Anyway all you have to do is google the trans Atlantic slave trade. Or Slavery in England. Or the slave trade in Bristol. Or the slave trade in Liverpool. All of these searches will show you that slavery was alive and well in England until the 19th century and that the slave trade in cities such as Bristol really flourished and brought great economic gain.

    As for you quotes- perhaps because they were Russian slaves- they were white. If your argument is that white slavery ended earlier- that may be true. I consider blacks fully human and the enslavement of them as every bit as much slavery as that of white people. Otherwise it doesn’t matter what a bunch of people said. There were slaves.

    If that isn’t your arguement- what about slavery in America? South America? Those people were all Christian. You’ve said nothing about that. You are clinging to the England reference because you are sure you are right. But as soon as you google search it- or see my links you will see you are wrong. Unless you come up with some convoluted reason that the trans Atlantic slave trade somehow doesn’t count.

  100. I googled Jesus and slavery and I don’t see any ‘condoning’. Slavery existed but would Jesus or his disciples own one or take a person as a slave? I think that slaves were the ones that were being preached TO and being given hope BY Jesus. I think slavery goes against what Jesus stood for, compare that to Mohammed who quoted ‘God’ on who should become slaves and how to go about getting one. Remember that Christians did not have any power, they WERE the enslaved and there is no talk of them ever striving to BE in power, was there?

  101. Oh wait- I forgot. The English and the White Slave trade. What about all the Irish the English took and sold into slavery at their own profit? Was that because of Christianity?

    http://www.saveyourheritage.com/white_slavery.htm

  102. @Lynn, It’s the same thing in both faiths. But my point to Flame is that Christianity did not end slavery- as he claims.

  103. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/98.htm

    Surah 98 – The clear proof

    6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

    7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

  104. Sandy, how could it be the same when one lays out conditions on who can be slaves with it’s leader even taking his own slaves, and one lays out conditions that all are equal and none should be slaves (except to God)?

  105. @Lynn,
    That is not clear proof. What does it mean to “reject” truth. Only Allah knows that. There are many reasons a person might hear of Islam yet not convert. That does not equate with rejection. Rejection is if you know full well a message is from Allah and you say “screw it’ anyway.

    Christianity did not lay that out at all. And the actions of Christians of many cultures over centuries support my understanding of the Bible, Old and New Testament.

  106. @Sandy,

    “What does it mean to “reject” truth. Only Allah knows that. There are many reasons a person might hear of Islam yet not convert. That does not equate with rejection. Rejection is if you know full well a message is from Allah and you say “screw it’ anyway.”

    Are we splitting hairs here. You know Muslims, based on their understanding of the religion, will define that as a person when hearing the message and does not convert. If it is meant that only Allah would know, then what is the purpose of the verse being revealed to mortals?

    This is what I mean by people not scrutinizing their believes. Whenever, the questions get difficult, the believers through around terms like “Only God Knows”. However, they also want respect for an ideology that can be easily interpreted to discriminate against others.

  107. ‘There are many reasons a person might hear of Islam yet not convert’

    You don’t have to tell ME! LOL

    ‘Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.’

    Where does that leave those who have NO faith?

    Sandy, Christianity is the teachings of Jesus. Can you find something in the words or actions of Jesus that support and give directions on the taking of slaves?

    Jews were not in power at the time of Jesus, they were not in the position to have slaves, were they?

  108. @Lynn,
    Christianity is more than just the teachings of Jesus. Certainly Jesus didn’t free slaves. Or instruct others to do so. The early Roman Empire had slaves. And Jews could have slaves as well. Herod ruled Judea with the sanction of Augustus. Slavery was allowed. I suspect we just disagree on this- but I see no reason to see Christianity as a liberating force.

    @MoQ
    I don’t think I am splitting hairs and I have met many other Muslims who believe the way I do on this. I think that Muslims like Christians have a variety of people who understand Scripture in different ways. Some Christians likewise believe if you have “rejected” Jesus you are eternally damned. I’ve had them say so to my face (ahem…lovely people). Some Christians believe it is God’s perogative to judge.

    So what is the purpose of revealing that verse? It is a clear message to those who ARE rejecting. They know who they are. That Allah sees all and there will be consequences. It’s purpose isn’t for people to usurp Allah’s role and start judging who is what. Does everyone see it that way? No. But many do. Which do you think is the most likely meaning if one assumes a just God? I think my understanding is more compatible with that assumption.

    I don’t think “only God knows” is an escape from scrutinizing my beliefs. It shows I clearly don’t see myself as “all-knowing”. On the contrary when people think THEY know what God wants in the judgement department- that’s when it gets ugliest.

  109. ‘I see no reason to see Christianity as a liberating force’ nor do I really BUT, it could be argued that Christians are supposed to act Christ-like so if they were doing that, then they would not enslave a fellow ‘son of God’ which was EVERY human being, no matter what they believed in. Muslims, on the other hand CAN enslave people and still be following the lead of their prophet. Get the difference?

  110. ‘I’ve had them say so to my face (ahem…lovely people). Some Christians believe it is God’s perogative to judge.’

    OMG!! I’ve had this exact same thing happen to me! I couldn’t believe it! She confirmed in a very matter of fact way that, Oh, yes, you ARE going to hell’ (because I didn’t believe in hell – y’all Muslims might be good to go though) but in a way that let you know that she meant no harm. And she is just the sweetest old woman. It still gives me a chuckle.

  111. Oh but SHE wasn’t the one condemning me, she was just letting me know that God would.

  112. @Sandy,

    I want to be honest with you about how your replies sound.

    You say you’re a Muslim, which by default means you accept the Book of Islam (the Quraan). However, every time someone brings an argument from the Quraan that you do not agree with, you step around the question with things like “Only God Knows”, it is situational, metaphorical, etc. This calls into question whether the Quraan does in fact communicate anything to you and what is the criteria you use to determine what verse fits in these categories?

    I know you may think these are unfair questions or judgement, but I am am bringing them up in the spirit of trying to understand how you make these calls.

  113. @MoQ….sigh…… I wrote a really detailed answer and it got lost. I’ll try to hit all the highlights. First of all your question isn’t unfair at all but probably needs a dissertation to answer.

    The Quran is a Holy Book, not a Magic one. It is limited because it is not Allah himself- but a message. And a continuation of monotheistic history. The message has to be taken in context of the people and time it was delivered. If not, it could only be for all time if we lived in a 7th century Arabian culture. It only makes sense that some of it relates directly to Peninsulan Arabs since it was delivered to them and in their language. So how to filter it?

    It seems your premise is that Islam is a man-made religion based on man-made writings and the accumulation of the behavior and practices of the majority of Muslims through the ages.

    I come from a different premise. There is one God. He is all-powerful, all knowing. He is just. He is moral. He is the judge- no one else. So EVERYTHING has to be filtered through that lense.

    Clearly I am not exactly orthodox. Nor am I the majority- but luckily the video Aafke posted shows that the majority is not necessarily the most moral 🙂 Anyway, I have an obligation to assess things based with everything Allah gifted me which includes my brain and my heart as well as the Quran.

  114. I think the topic (sex slavery of women in islam) has seriously gotten off-topic by comparing islam to christianty and other doctrines. It seems like a diversionary tactic to me at least.

    Simply, what is being advocated by Salwa Al Mutairi in the video is nothing new to Islam. It is just legalizing what has already been happening to Christian girls in Pakistan, Egypt, Sudan and across the Middle East and Muslim World.

    Christian girls are abducted, force-married to Muslim men and then they are discarded like trash after they have a couple of kids and announce they are Muslim. These girls are then no longer allowed to go back to Christianity under muslim law and the kids become Muslims and the property of the father. Another “creative” way of “forced conversions” and to increase the number of muslims/muslimas in the ummah. :)-

  115. Many girls I knew did change their religion to get permission to come to KSA in the past. I’m not sure if that’s still enforced or not, but perhaps it’s easier to get the necessary permission pushed through the line more easily.

    What is important is that the fathers, brothers, and uncles representing these young women also understand the rules of the religion and the culture of the country that the husband is from. This will not stop American women from marrying non-American men, but at least the girls will be signing contracts with informed consent. They will understand how the rules of the husband’s country/religion might affect their women’s future. The women also need to understand that their decisions not only affect themselves, but that of their future children and grandchildren.

  116. @Sandy,

    “There is one God. He is all-powerful, all knowing. He is just. He is moral. He is the judge- no one else. So EVERYTHING has to be filtered through that lense.”

    Fair enough, the God can be all these things including moral and just. That is if you want to believe. The issue is Islam also says that God gave us a book which provides us a description of its behavior and morals to us. When we read this book, we cannot relate to it in the terms you described. For some of us a God that condemns his creation to endless (eternal) torture or allows slavery even for a far gone period (as you believe), is neither Moral nor Just.

    Now let me bring this entire thing full circle, since we started with the idea that calling belief in a Deity without evidence as believing in fairy tails and some how that is disrespectful.

    A few years back a little Trilogy called Star Wars hit the bookshelves. When I read the book, I find stories of heroes and even nuggets of beautiful wisdom such as the way of the Jedi. You know all the wonderful stuff like: control your anger, there is no ignorance; there is knowledge, etc. However, with those ideas comes fantastic unbelievable concepts such as death stars, planets full of strange alien races, etc. All with no shred of proof.

    Now we have a religion of the Jedi Faith http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/ . So if I start telling Jedi faithfuls they believe in a work of fiction/fairy tail, am I being disrespectful?

    How is that different than believing in the Quraan as a religious book, when no one can agree on the morality it contains, its evidence or how to interpret its content. Both in the eyes of the unfaithful are work of fiction!!!

  117. @MoQ,
    I love Star Wars though I haven’t read the book. I believe what I actually complained about was, “sneering at my ignorant belief in “fairy tales” . It’s really more the “sneering” and assuming me to be ignorant where I take offense. I totally understand that to someone who doesn’t have faith, it looks like fairy tales. But I don’t think they should sneer and assume I am ignorant.

    Are you being disrespectful to the Jedi Faithfuls if you tell them what you think of their beliefs? It depends on the circumstances, and how you say it. Generally you’re not disrespectful so I imagine you’d be fine. Some others not so much.

  118. ‘The Quran is a Holy Book, not a Magic one. It is limited because it is not Allah himself- but a message. And a continuation of monotheistic history’

    Which I would be able to understand IF the Quran had not taken the progression backwards. Jesus didn’t go to war, Jesus didn’t need war booty or slaves, Jesus didn’t condemn prostitutes and he even asked God to forgive those who were persecuting him. How would the next messenger come along and be so different? (including allowing things, other than what is in your heart, to make you unclean spiritually?)

  119. You are going by the Christian version of things. According to Islam, Jesus in Islam is in harmony with Mohammed in Islam.

    However if you look at the Christian version, Christians think Jesus was actually God- not just a mere prophet. But God himself. So why didn’t he free the slaves and end slavery for Jews and Christians? Jesus managed to save one prostitute from stoning…why didn’t he change the law?

  120. Christianity is really all about the teachings of Jesus. And they are followed are they not? But where I did find reference in Paul, to shave off the head of a woman who does not cover it, I did not find one reference to alcohol being allowed or gay marriages or free sex or 13 years getting pregnant or the priests having their juniors sticking out of their pants…

  121. @THS and Sandy,

    All what that says is both religions condone immoral acts and they have the holy books to make it all legitimate.

  122. @Holy Sinner,
    Jesus first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding. Jesus was a practicing Jew and wine is part of some of their traditions and rituals. As for the rest- well you have an interesting way of stating things.

  123. Flame. You constantly misquote me and then demand that I show some proof. I am not playing that game.

  124. @MoQ,
    I understand that this is how you see it. Enjoy the rest of your day. I’ve been on the computer TOO much today and am going to call it quits while I’m ahead- or at least not tooo much behind!

  125. @Sandy,

    I love the intellectual spin the bottle game. i.e. when Christians and Muslims play who’s religion is worse.

    Well, I understand you need to get rest, so the fun is over for now 😦

    Have a great day!!!!

  126. As far as I see it…if you raise your Muslim women to believe that to deny their husband sex whenever and where ever he wants it on pain of being cursed by angels…then she is little more than a sex slave who is required to perform on command…whether she wants too or not. Whether this actually happens betweens husband and wife is beside the point…the rule is there.

  127. ‘According to Islam, Jesus in Islam is in harmony with Mohammed in Islam.’

    Which I think is the reason why it can be difficult for people to understand that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, Christians don’t recognize a God that would condone the enslavement of any of his ‘creation’

    Do Muslims believe that Jesus taught to ‘turn the other cheek’, ‘he who is without sin…’, or ‘Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them’ ? If not then you can’t compare the Jesus of the Quran with the Jesus of the Bible. Know what I mean?

    ‘Jesus managed to save one prostitute from stoning…why didn’t he change the law?’

    Some would say that telling them that they can’t judge her kind of WAS changing the law, if people were going to follow him that is. I don’t think that the Romans (who were the law) cared about stoning a prostitute and they only wanted Jesus dead because they understood the dangers of religion to their ability to remain in power.

  128. @The Holy Sinner – ‘I did find reference in Paul, to shave off the head of a woman who does not cover it’

    I have had this explained to me this way. Paul was writing a letter to a specific new church which had been complaining about the women who were going against the traditions of the town which were that they covered and he was telling them not to ‘rock the boat’ kind like the prohibition of spreading fitna or women driving. And you realize it it was shaving the HAIR not the actual head, right? Don’t wanna go pronouncing a death sentence for women who don’t cover their hair! lol

  129. According to Christianity Jesus was GOD so of course he could change the law. And if you will know them by their fruits there was LOADS of slavery in the Christian world. Jesus DID condone the keeping of slaves. He was God and did nothing. Left the law as it was. And Jews and Christians continued to have slaves for hundreds of years. I”m not trying to say Islam was better than Christianity in this- but Christianity did nothing along those lines. And no, an individual saving one prostitute from very local authorities is not the same thing as changing the Jewish law for prostitution. Not at all. And it was not the Romans who wanted to stone her but the religious leaders.

    Your understanding of how Rome worked, and how it worked in Judea doesn’t seem very accurate at all. But I’ll let you do your own research on that.

    Anyway, I will no longer try to convince you of anything about this. But it’s cringworthy when you say such historically inaccurate things.

  130. ‘But it’s cringworthy when you say such historically inaccurate things’.

    I’m not sure I understand what you mean? Are you suggesting that Jerusalem was not governed by the Romans? What power did Jesus have to change the law? The ‘people’ needed to change it by following his lead. Prostitutes no longer get stoned to death do they? Well, outside of the Muslim world anyway.

    I not going to argue that Jesus was God so could do anything he wanted to, I’m not a believer. I am only talking about him as a historical spiritual leader.

  131. “I’m not a believer. I am only talking about him as a historical spiritual leader.”

    But Lynn do you really think there is any historic evidence that Jesus even existed. We only have the bible who’s writers never met a man named Jesus and no historian recorded anything about him. As far as history is concerned the bible is a collection of legend not true history.

  132. Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn’t. What matters is that people believed that he did and his story is supposed to tell them how to live. I don’t know that Mohammed actually lived either but people try to live by his example. If I HAD to choose an example that I would like the world to live by I would choose Jesus’.

  133. This woman is a beast and she will burn in hell! No person is to be bought or sold for money and raped enlessly becasuse a man cannot control himself! Man an wife are to have sex, and no one else, God forbids it! Muslims always try to make new laws to comfort themselves rather than do what God says! They create their own laws! Women are brainwashed into pervert mens thinking. This woman is a primitive barbarian! She is an animal! Each soul is precious in Gods sight! There should be no bond woman or free woman. Those men who told her this rubbish are less than animals! Pigs!Arab pigs! Sick Perverts!

  134. I agree with Lynn..

    For as many evidences that he didn’t exist there are others who study it that that say he did. But for arguments sake lets say he didn’t and it is one gigantic hoax. Of the three Abrahamic Religions I think his message was the best. It is the Golden Rule. Even if he didn’t exist, “his/the” message is one of love,forgiveness and compassion for all.

    Turn the other cheek…blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy…blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children god…the first shall be last and the last shall be first…love your enemies…do unto others as you would have them do unto you…love EVERYONE for all are the children of God.

    Following just that handful of teachings and the world would be a much better place.

    Jesus’ Beatitudes pretty much covers how we should behave…

    “Each Beatitude consists of two phrases: the condition and the result. In almost all cases the phrases used are familiar from an Old Testament context, but in the sermon Jesus elevates them to new teachings.[5]
    Together, the Beatitudes present a new set of ideals that focus on love and humility rather than force and exaction; they echo the highest ideals of his teachings on spirituality and compassion.”

    http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

  135. Sorry Oby, the argument that my religion is better than their’s just does not work, when the head of the largest Christian sect still insists on making the use of a condom a sin and uses Church funds to spread misinformation about the spread of Aids. This has resulted in millions of people dead and infected in Africa.

    You can stay on the same continent and you will find Christians calling for creation of laws to kill gays. All based on biblical teaching. The nice form of Christianity you find in the west is not a result of the religion being peaceful in its nature, it is a result of secularism which took the nasty edges off. To see real unfiltered Christianity, you have to study what the religion is doing in Africa.

    You can dream up a character like Jesus and give him all the nice soft description you had above. This is no different than Muslims giving their God descriptions like merciful, charitable, etc. However, the Bible is not much different than the Quran. It is a book full of violence and rules, that are responsible for the death of millions throughout history.

  136. MoQ, I am only comparing the character from one tale with the equivalent character in the other NOT the ‘value’ of the religions as they stand today. I’d rather there were no religions at all, then perhaps this world would finally have a chance at peace.

  137. @Lynn, I know your position on religions. I was replying to Oby in my last comment.

    Looks like you are playing who’s fairy tale is better. Note I still think Start Wars beats both 😉

  138. ** Star Wars**

  139. “The nice form of Christianity you find in the west is not a result of the religion being peaceful in its nature, it is a result of secularism which took the nasty edges off.”

    I agree with that. In fact I said that to someone the other day…What I am saying is even if Jesus did not exist (which I said above…lets assume it is a big hoax) and someone else came up with the things I listed above, the idea of treating each other by the golden rule of humility and kindness and treat others as you would like to be treated is the way to go IMO. You don’t need to be a Christian to do that…even nonbelievers can do that.

    But as Lynn said if we are going to compare one “person” to another (assuming they exist) I prefer the peaceful example of “love thy neighbor” (Jesus) to the more forceful example of Mohammed.

  140. Oby wan kenobi

  141. BTW…

    The stuff about Aids/gays etc…I agree with you is terrible and immoral to condemn people to death for that. I disagree with that stance and think it should be repealed.

  142. @Lynn, I know your position on religions. I was replying to Oby in my last comment.

    You were replying to her agreeing with me though. 🙂

  143. The Golden Rule did not start with the Bible…there are similar exhortations found in Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism…all giving encouragement to be kind to others or at least not harm them in hopes they will do the same. All of those are dated earlier than Christianity or the Bible so Im not sure how the Bible is considered the One True Source to find the Golden Rule…not to mention the words “The Golden Rule” are not even in the Bible…so how did the two become thus connected? As a matter of fact the words ‘do unto others” doesn’t actually appear like that either anywhere in the Bible.

  144. Angel: “Women are brainwashed into pervert mens thinking. This woman is a primitive barbarian! She is an animal.”

    Yes, most definitely! On a more serious note, looking at a woman like Salwa Mutairi we are reminded of the deranged wives of the kidnappers of Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Dugard here in the US a while back. The reason such abductors succeeded and went undetected for many years was because of their mentally sick wives who were willing enablers and who posed as mothers to those poor girls. Mutairi represents the worst in women: she sells her soul and her fellow women in order to get respect and attention in a Muslim world that has no mercy or respect for her and other muslimas.

    Unfortunately, Mutairi is not the only Muslim woman who advocates sexual slavery for infidel women; there have been others who have advocated the rape of Jewish women in the Arab/Muslim media. In my discussions with some well-educated muslimahs right here where I live in the US, I have seen some of the same dynamic repeated, where they defend polygamy, pleasure and temporary marriage for men while being silent about the flogging and stoning of adulterers in the Muslim world. What hypocrisy!

    And making sex slaves out of kafir women is decreed by Allah/Mohammed in the Koran 4:24. According to the morality of Sharia, owning a slave against her will for sex and housework is not morally corrupting, but having consensual sex between lovers before marriage is reason for severe and humiliating punishments. The message is that women must never pick and choose their lovers — that pleasure is only for men. Incidentally, it is illegal to celebrate Valentine’s Day in Saudi Arabia and many other muslim countries; sex and love should not mix when it comes to Sharia. What hypocrisy!

  145. “not to mention the words “The Golden Rule” are not even in the Bible…so how did the two become thus connected?”

    That’s a good question…

    Maybe someone Christian coined it in relation to their version of how people should live.

    But of course you are right that there are other faiths that extol those virtues. Witness my sister in law who for the entire time I have known her has been a bit critical and always seemed just a touch unhappy. After studying Buddhism she is a different person. (She still claims she is a Hindu with a blend of Buddhism mixed in.) Smiling, peaceful and friendly and in her own words credits Buddhism for that. I don’t know what made the change I am just glad that she is a happier person now!

  146. Oby, *According to the morality of Sharia, owning a slave against her will for sex and housework is not morally corrupting, but having consensual sex between lovers before marriage is reason for severe and humiliating punishments.*

    Excellent point!
    And let’s not forget, ”adultery” can only happen if one or both of the couple are married.
    But what about married women turned into slaves? According to the Quran raping them is halal too.
    The point is a slave has no rights at all. As soon as you are a slave your worth is nothing, you’re rights are nothing. If yiu advocate slavery you are a sick and twisted human being. If a religion allows rape and slavery it’s a sick and twisted religion. And no more proof is needed in my opinion that whether there is/are a god/gods or not, religions do not come from a divine loving, caring super being.

    So rape and slavery are ok.
    Genuine love is not.
    How very sad.

  147. Luke 6
    27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    Sure the Bible is not the first place this concept was brought up, that isn’t really the point. The fact that that is the concept that Jesus preached is the point. Perhaps that is one of the ‘laws’ that he was there to ‘fulfill’? Did Mohammed preach this same thing?

  148. Holy Sinner,

    So are you going to comment on events at Banu al-Mustaliq? It is about sex and slaves – very much the topic of this post.

  149. Lynn, but Jesus said in Luke
    *The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.*
    So according to Jesus slaves deserve severe punishment for not doing their duty, and even that slaves should be punished even if they did not know they were doing wrong. That does in no way give the impression that Jesus was against slavery, or even promoted humane treatment of slaves.

    The New testament has more to say about slavery nowhere does it say slaves should be freed, on the contrary, it says slaves should be obedient to their masters.
    * Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. *

    and:

    *Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. *

  150. I think a lot is about accepting your ‘lot’ in life and not making it worse for yourself. Think of it like the women in Saudi not driving so as not to create problems for themselves and their families. The people who are trying to promote that are not in the position to change the ‘law’, are they? Why would Jesus have had that power? But, people who believe in his teachings should not own a slave. I would like to see a passage where Jesus is talking about the rights to obtain a slave.

  151. point is, the bible as a whole supports slavery, punishment of slavery, and Jesus didn’t, according to the bible, change a thing about that.
    Jesus was not in a position to change the law? He was in a position to get the tradesmen out of the temple, at least that got him angry enough. Not like slavery, instead of getting angry he endorsed harsh punishments.
    No sorry, any man (or woman) claiming to be a prophet of god and the example for all subsequent generations has to speak out against slavery, rape and abuse of women, misogyny, etc.
    I have not yet seen a prophet do so.

  152. If I were to proclaim myself the one and only last prophet of God tomorrow I would do a lot better than Jesus, Mohammed, Josef Smith, etc combined.
    That’s how really pathetically bad they are as ”prophets of god”!

  153. ‘Jesus didn’t, according to the bible, change a thing about that’

    And I say that whether he was a God or a prophet or just a nut case, whatever he was, his followers cannot condone the taking of a slave. But perhaps you can show me something from the New Testament that says otherwise?

  154. I don’t see why you think Christians can’t take slaves? There is plenty of stuff in the bible which shows that owning slaves is normal, in the second testament for christians as well. I can’t paste copy large parts of the bible here. just google ”bible& slavery” or ”Jesus slavery” and you’ll get them.
    There are is also a very nasty story in the bible about a concubine (sex slave) being offered to a mob of men to be brutally beaten and gang raped, and she just managed to crawl back to the door of the house where she collapsed, when her master came out in the morning he kicked her and said ”let’s be on our way”.
    but she was dead. So he cut up her body and dispersed the pieces.
    Utterly disgusting story even more as it is presented as a good way to behave.
    All Abrahamic religions are disgusting and barbarian in their fundamental writings. Only when they loose power over people are they forced to become more moral. And always there will be fundamentalists who can use the books, and will be supprted by the books, to bring back barbarism. Like in this article. This woman and the scholars who tutored her on what’s actually written in the Quran are totally devoid of human feelings and real morals. And all supported by a religion invented by a bronze age warlord.

    It’s high time people start shaking off the shackles and taking off their blinders and look at what revolting immoral teachings their holy books actually offer. And what a nasty sick deity god must be if you persist in holding on to your religion.

    At the very least you can acknowledge the facts.

  155. ‘This woman and the scholars who tutored her on what’s actually written in the Quran are totally devoid of human feelings and real morals. And all supported by a religion invented by a bronze age warlord.’

    Sure, I agree with you BUT that is not comparable at all to Jesus, whether he was real or not. When you can find me a scripture that is supposed to have been what HE taught about how to obtain a slave then I will agree that he ‘allowed’ or ‘condoned’ or ‘encouraged’ it just as Mohammed and the Quran does.

  156. 45 But if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and begins oppressing the other servants, partying, and getting drunk — 46 well, the master will return unannounced and unexpected. He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the unfaithful. 47 The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. 48 “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given. just to put the Aafke´s citation into context:D
    – aha, our Aafke, who is not able to produce one single verse when it comes to clear and unequivocal support of slavery in NT, is, miracle of miracles, able to cite the verse from NT when it sounds a bit supportive to his opinion.
    😀 how nice and unbiased:D
    we are still waiting how is your non-dogmatic atheism logically strongly protected against the depravities like communism 😀 please, be so kind, we are all awaiting the miracle of atheist logic.:D
    bit a forgetful, isn ´it?
    what do you think, was Stalin atheist as you, or he wasnt?

  157. Jesus and Mohammed lived in different environments. In Jesus environment you just went to the slave market and bought one. Nothing to explain really about “how to get a slave”. It was easy, known and COMMON in his society. That’s why the NT talks about what to do with them when you have them already. That’s why Christians had them for hundreds of years. Apparently it was clear to THEM it was allowed, from what was written in the NT about how to treat them.

  158. Angel: “Muslims always try to make new laws to comfort themselves rather than do what God says! They create their own laws!”

    So true!!!!

    I think Salwa Mutairi has unintentionally solved the problem of Islamic terrorism since Muslim men with all these sexual slaves from Chechnia will no longer be interested in dying in order to get Allah’s prize of 72 virgins in heaven. Bbbbut Mrs. Mutairi, wait, that might end jihad all together and if jihad ends than the acquisition of female slaves will end. That will create a shortage of slave girls for the jihadists! Well that problem can be solved later, who cares about shortages in the future. Mrs. Mutairi’s husband wants his sex slaves and he wants them now!

    Never for a moment think that Mutairi is just a Kuwaiti crazed woman. I believe Islamists are testing the water to familiarize Muslim society with religious rights that they feel should come back. The moral decadence advocated by Sharia lovers is reaching a new low daily. I am appalled at the lack of mercy, inhumanity and cruelty I read about in Arab/Muslim media daily. Respect for human rights or peace was never a value advocated in the Muslim world, which is now protesting for freedom and democracy. With Sharia ethics and values the Muslim world will never have peace, freedom or democracy.

    I am sad at the state of Islam and sad for Muslims, but they will reap what they sow.

  159. About slavery, Chrisitanity and the Roman Empire.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

  160. ‘In Jesus environment you just went to the slave market and bought one. Nothing to explain really about “how to get a slave”. It was easy, known and COMMON in his society.’

    I’m not convinced of that.

  161. BUT, did Jesus own any slaves? WOULD Jesus have owned any slaves?

  162. @Flame,

    You claim you are talking logic, but you twist arguments.

    Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a God. It is not communism. There are atheists who are capitalists, socialists, communists, etc.

    Regarding your statement, “what do you think, was Stalin atheist as you, or he wasn’t?”

    So Stalin did not believe in a god. That does not mean all none believers are Stalinists. Communism as practiced in East Europe was a dogma, similar to Christianity being a Dogma, that a state used to control people.

    Note using your logic a statement like the following can be made, Hitler was a Christian, thus all Christians must believe in Nazi ideology.

    Logic, learn how it works please!!!

    Regarding the argument of how none believe actually produce protection against bad ideologies (example communism), you are living in a world that has progressed exactly due to rejecting dogmatic leaning in developing laws. The Western nations, such as the US, owe their progress to Logically defined laws based on secularism. Further, the advancement of science was only made possible by the rejection of the religious dogma of the dark ages. Once we removed the requirement of satisfying the dogmatic rules of the Deity with our scientific discoveries, we were able to advance science in a very fast pace.

    Regarding, how the NT supported slavery, I think you were provided plenty of evidence on that. You just choose to ignore it. Verses in the NT, which call for beating slaves, are plenty of evidence for any logical person.

  163. I get it Lynn,
    Context matters for Jesus, but not for Muhammed.
    Did Jesus own slaves? Who knows? They don’t mention everything about his life in the Bible- I don’t know if he ate bananas either. Or if he wore cologne. It would have been nothing out of the ordinary if he had owned slaves. Historically, they pretty much mention nothing at all (one possible brief reference by Suetonious).

    Honestly, in spite of all my arguments holding Jesus to an absolute standard- I think context matters for both. But if you’re going to hold Muhammad accountable- Jesus too. And as well- Islam had a much shorter history with slavery than Christianity did.

    @Flame,
    My links are all up about England and slavery! Bristol, Liverpool- selling the Irish into slavery up until the 19th century. I hope you’ve had a chance to read them and now know that the Atlantic Slave trade and Englands participation in it are not just figures of my imagination.

  164. MoQ, I asked for evidence that JESUS supported or encouraged or regulated slavery as Mohammed did. I did not find that. Also I am not a Christian so there is no reason for me to want to try to whitewash anything about the religion. I just want evidence that Jesus supports the violent taking of slaves. There was another form of slavery that was prevalent during that time where people volunteered or were sold by their parents to a person in order to pay off a debt or because they were every poor and needed support (like taking in a live in maid with the payment being room and board) That is not the same as taking someone as a slave because they have a different belief system or they are from a losing tribe (like the JEWS in Egypt in Moses’ time).

    So, can someone show me how Jesus had/or condoned the forceful taking of slaves or concubines?

  165. “what would Jesus do?”

    WWJD

  166. When any faith is allowed supreme power over the people it is subject to be misused (meaning enforcing the nasty bits) and giving the clergy WAY too much power!

  167. “what would Jesus do?”

    That’s kinda my point here oby. I don’t know how any harm could come to anyone if they followed that example but I see a LOT of harm when people follow WWMD?

  168. But that does not mean that I believe EITHER of the stories to be ‘divine’.

  169. Yes, some sold themselves or were sold by parents- most were war prisoners. There was a lot of Empire expansion going on at the time. Roman law gave absolute control of slaves to their owners. WHATEVER they wanted to do to them. So no, it was not like taking in a maid with the payment being room and board unless you were lucky. Like some slaves in the west were. And yes, owners slept with their property if they wanted to. Both Romans and Jews accepted that as part of slavery.

    He condoned it by accepting as perfectly normal that children could be sold by their parents and that nations could enslave enemies. By not doing anything to change a status quo when he had an audience who listened to him.

  170. But, if Jesus WAS, as I understand him to have been, all ‘turn the other cheek’ etc. Then how could Islam be a progression of the same story if it went back to ‘an eye for an eye’ after Jesus taught so much passiveness (ie: telling slaves to behave rather than telling them to rise up)? How could Muslims say they respect and hold Jesus so high yet go back to ‘and eye for an eye’?

  171. I know you don’t feel so…but do they even have to be divine to follow a good example? Parents try to set a good example for their children so they grow up to be moral/good people. No one claims they are a prophet or God. So even if Jesus was a regular guy who was charismatic, following the ideas he is credited for putting forth (which I named earlier) could not be harmful and only improve peoples interactions. When you think of the other person and treat them as you want to be treated that kind of takes away most of the other issues that cause trouble.

  172. First of all, Islamic understanding of Jesus is not the same- so the continuity is there. Muslims do not claim that the Christian version of Jesus- is the predecessor to Muhammed.

    However, you might consider that not all societies progress at the same rate. At Jesus time the Roman empire was FAR more advanced than many places in the world. And it was far more advanced than Arabia was at the time of Muhammed. They both had to speak to their audience.

    If a prophet arrived in to an isolated tribe in the Amazon rain forest- he would have to seem “backward” to us because they are no way comparable to us. That is just fact.

  173. ‘Muslims do not claim that the Christian version of Jesus’

    So you would agree with me that it is misleading for a Muslim to try to find ‘common ground’ with a Christian by saying that they love Jesus too?

  174. No I would not agree with that at all Lynn. But I find this whole discussion with you basically fruitless- so believe what you like.

  175. Seriously? lol That sounds so familiar. Where have I heard that before? hmmmm, let me think… Oh yeah! It was the last time someone (not naming names) could not ‘prove’ what they were saying was factual.

  176. “Islamic understanding of Jesus is not the same- so the continuity is there”

    Sandy could you please expound? I know that they thought of him as a prophet but they also say that Mohammed came to correct the bible by bringing the quran. So how can they not see Jesus as a predecessor?

    Actually Lynn brought up a good point…Jesus was all about passivity (the best word I can think for it) and forgiveness of people of all faiths and redemption (meaning you sin and make a mistake and there is the chance for you to fix that and “sin no more” and be clean in the eyes of God.) Even though the society in which he lived might have been rough he himself called for a more passive/kind/gentle (pick a word) approach. Yet Mohammed seems to have the opposite style and feel more to me like the old testament than the new…This has always made me wonder why? It feels like it is going back rather than forward.

  177. @Lynn,

    “I asked for evidence that JESUS supported or encouraged or regulated slavery as Mohammed did. I did not find that.”

    My main argument was a response to Flame. However, let me explain my position for your arguments, since you asked. I apologize for this being long before hand, as it is a complex philosophical argument.

    – You dismissed the fact that Jesus is a made up character. I think it is central in this argument as he is different than Mohammad in this regard (i.e. you are making a comparison between the 2). Mohammad was also against slavery at the beginning, when he did not have army’s in Mecca. The prophet from that period is the one liberal Muslims romanticize about as being kind and gentle and yes he was for freeing slaves in that period.

    – Muslims were a small minority with very little political or military powers in that period (Meccan). They were similar to Christians during the time the New Testament was written. It was a grass root religion for the weak and politically irrelevant people of the era. The writers of the NT did not have the need nor the strategic advantage to make the romanticized Jesus powerful (including being a slave owner), due to the need to make him anti establishment. However, they also did not have the need to emphasize rejection to common norms such as slavery. Jesus was in essence a politically correct figure.

    – Christianity did gain a powerful position under Constantine and became the religion of the Roman empire. If there are comparisons to be drawn between Islam as a ruling religion and Christianity, you should be comparing Christianity gaining power under the Romans and Islam gaining power under the Medina Mohammad. Both religions allowed slavery, acquired slaves, invaded nations, etc. The religion under such rule started to become more aggressive and the old testament rules become legitimate, since the NT did not offer any text to abrogate the OT rules.

    – Yes we can imagine a romantic Jesus, who did not take slaves. However, that is fiction. Christianity did not eliminate slavery. It’s incarnation as the powerful religion of the empire included the taking of slaves. Christian texts have been used to justify slavery until the 1800’s. Similar to Islam justifying the same.

    I will stop here as I think I have went over my limit 🙂

  178. ‘You dismissed the fact that Jesus is a made up character’

    How do you figure that? From this comment of mine? ‘But that does not mean that I believe EITHER of the stories to be ‘divine’’ Harry Potter was a made up character too but I can understand how the author intends us to understand his ‘character’, right?

    ‘Yes we can imagine a romantic Jesus, who did not take slaves. However, that is fiction. Christianity did not eliminate slavery’

    MoQ, there were many Christians that used their religion to try to ABOLISH slavery. Why would they do that if they believed that slavery was in accordance with what Jesus taught?

    Jesus didn’t even condone fighting so how could he condone someone taking a human as war booty?

  179. Speaking of Harry Potter, what if someone wrote another book and had a character named Harry Potter and they talked about some of the things from the original HP books but when they spoke about Harry he didn’t seem to have the same characteristics as the Harry Potter in J.K. Rowlings books and he used his ‘powers’ for evil, could we say that they are the same character?

  180. Oby, a prophet to a backward culture could not be the same as a prophet to one that is hundreds of years forward. I’ve already said that. Chronologically Mohammed was after Jesus but in many ways his people were far behind.

    Of course it is very big that someone is viewed as a Prophet rather than God. Quite a few of those “turn the other cheek” followers are certain I’l be damned for all eternity and burning in hellfire precisely because I think so. The other main difference is that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet for the Jews. That everything went “off” when the Gentiles got hold of it. In fact, if you study it, many feel Paul- who never even met Jesus was more responsible for how Christianity expanded and the form it took. For instance it would be very hard to convince staunchly monotheistic Jews that there is such a thing as a Trinity. However, the Romans were really into turning leaders into Deities at that point in their history. The only way to make Jesus relevant to non-Jews would almost certainly putting him at a higher lever than the other sons of gods. He was the Son of GOD- capital S, capital G.

    If Jesus message was for the Jews, and was full of passivisity (while not saying a word about the “peculiar institution”) for whatever reason that is what they were supposed to hear. And remember- I don’t subscribe to the Muhammad is ‘awful, pro-slavery, rape and pillage’ either. So that “gap” – for me isn’t that big and is accounted for by environment. And no- I’m not going to go into why. Because throughout this whole thread I’ve been countering the most absurd historical claims- and I know people will view mine about Muhammed as also absurd. So why exhaust myself? But if you want to know how a Muslim can see that progression- that is how.

    Lynn think what you like. MoQ has already given a better response than I am capable of this time.

  181. ‘Oby, a prophet to a backward culture could not be the same as a prophet to one that is hundreds of years forward’

    But there were Christians and Jews in that ‘backward’ culture so it’s not like the ‘hundred of years forward’ culture had not touched them. Right?

  182. Thanks sandy…

    “But if you want to know how a Muslim can see that progression- that is how.”

    Yes that is why I asked. I feel everyone is entitled to their beliefs whether I agree with them or not…but I didn’t understand the difference from a Muslim POV. Though in this particular debate I am leaning toward Lynn’s POV, I was still interested in how it was seen through Muslim eyes.

    “That everything went “off” when the Gentiles got hold of it.”

    Interesting point. Yes Jesus did come to speak to the Jews (who else was he mostly surrounded by?) but others of differing beliefs if he came in contact with them. So what is a gentile? I went to see what that actually meant. NOTE: I am not trying to argue with you but share what I consider an interesting point.

    “The designations Jew, who were Israelites because they were descendants of Israel, and Gentile when used in the Bible were terms used by the Jews to distinguish themselves from everyone else in the world. That is how the Jews viewed things; if you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile. Another expression that is sometimes found in the New Testament is a reference to the Jews and Greeks, such as in Romans 1:16. This designation fits the same purpose of distinguishing Jews from all others. These designations would also help the Gentiles understand the glory of their having been made a part of God’s people. Note especially Ephesians 2:11-22. Where God’s covenants and promises had previously been given to the Jews only, through Christ the Gentiles would also be participants in them. However, these designations, Jew and Gentile or Jew and Greek, would not be something that would continue, for in Ephesians 2:15 the Bible says that God made the Jews and Gentiles into one new man. He didn’t make them all Jews and He didn’t make them all Gentiles. He made them Christians. To summarize then, Gentiles were Gentiles, Jews were Jews or Israelites, and converts from either group were called Christians.”

    Thanks, as without that point from you I might not have looked this particular distinction up…

    “Quite a few of those “turn the other cheek” followers are certain I’l be damned for all eternity and burning in hellfire precisely because I think so.”

    Yes Sandy that is true…no different than Muslims who think those who don’t believe are damned. Sad, don’t you think? That religion should divide so profoundly…I say leave it up to God and mind your own business and He will sort it out. Meanwhile, treat others as you would want to be treated.

  183. “Quite a few of those “turn the other cheek” followers are certain I’l be damned for all eternity and burning in hellfire precisely because I think so.”

    Right, but the BIG difference is that Muslims, in their Holy Book are instructed to KILL or enslave (that includes dhimmitude) the unbeliever. Christians were NOT.

  184. @Lynn,

    “How do you figure that? From this comment of mine?”

    Earlier you made the point that whether Jesus is fictional or real is irrelevant, I am saying it is. I also, detailed why it is relevant.

    “MoQ, there were many Christians that used their religion to try to ABOLISH slavery. ”

    There are also Muslims that used Mohammad’s example in Mecca as a reason to abolish slavery. Some Muslims also go further by saying buying slaves and freeing them will be compensated by God in heaven as a very good dead. However, that argument does not make Islam as anti slavery religion, nor does Jesus not taking slaves make Christianity any better. Jesus preaching that slave owners can beat their slaves does not make your argument any better either.

    You also want to dismiss the Old Testament completely. That is not a valid argument as I described above. OT can be used by Christians in a similar way to the Madina verses of the Quran to justify many oppressive rules including Slavery. A good example, the support of Evangelical Christians of Israel taking over the West bank as it is justified based on OT marginalization of none Jews.

    The Harry Potter argument is not valid as it is talking about someone outside the creator of Harry Potter writing a different story. In the case of Jesus we are supposedly talking about the same Author or more technically inspiration of the same author.

  185. “I say leave it up to God”….the state of the world today is due to the fact that god “exists” at all. His supposed existence is the basis for pretty much all conflict throughout history (dig deep enough into any war, racism, bigotry etc and you will find religious backing) so I say…rather than leave it up to god…why not just leave god out of it all together. Apparently the creator of the world just cant endear tolerance towards those that follow him. How good of a god can he be when all his “books” need context, interpretation, manipulation etc to say what god “really means” and what he really means is never good for someone somewhere.

  186. ‘In the case of Jesus we are supposedly talking about the same Author or more technically inspiration of the same author’

    Not the way that I view those books (as works of fiction) if they are works of fiction and they came hundreds of years apart they cannot have the same author. Right? You keep trying to compare the religions, I am comparing ‘characters’ in the books which I consider works of fiction. The understanding of Jesus as the central character in the New Testament, I do not see him as one who would own slaves. I do not find anything, and no one has shown me a verse, that supports him owning or condoning the taking of slaves.

  187. ” Right? You keep trying to compare the religions, I am comparing ‘characters’”

    You are using the characters as a way to give Christianity a pass on this issue. So yes, I am taking it to what matters. Does Christianity have the same complicity in propagating slavery? My answer is yes.

    The Character comparisons is just noise bordering on intellectual acrobatics when it comes to this subject.

  188. ‘The Character comparisons is just noise bordering on intellectual acrobatics when it comes to this subject.’

    That’s bull MoQ. Christians are supposed to consider WWJD? and act accordingly. If they did that they would be peaceful and not enslave people (according to how he is characterized in the ‘book’)

  189. We don’t know if Jesus had slaves or not. He may well have, since slavery didn’t bother him.

    I don’t recall the books mentioning if Harry P ate bananas. But I don’t think I can conclude he didn’t. Bananas were common in England in the time Harry lived and it was normal to eat them.

  190. @Lynn,

    You know and I know that WWJD is the Bullshit. I live in the South where that is commonly used by people for convenience. However, these same people want to cut things like Medicare from the elderly and sick. WWJD is the equivalent to Inshaallah in Islam.

    Let’s get real please….

  191. If Harry Potter had something akin to ‘the only fruits that are good to eat are apples, figs, and watermelon’ then I would guess that he probably didn’t eat bananas.

    Jesus said ;
    Luke 6
    27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    So, unless you like being taken as a slave, you had better not think of taking one yourself. Right?

  192. ‘You know and I know that WWJD is the Bullshit. I live in the South where that is commonly used by people for convenience.’

    MoQ what they DO is irrelevant, right? It is what they were ‘taught’ that matters. If they are Christians they were taught that verse from Luke and could not, therefore treat others badly.

    You say that if Muslims are decent people it is ‘in spite’ of their dogma that teaches otherwise, don’t you?

  193. ‘However, these same people want to cut things like Medicare from the elderly and sick’

    Oh, MoQ, I think perhaps you’ve spent too much time conversing with those others that you complain about that resort to diversionary tactics

    Heh-hehehehe

  194. @Lynn,

    “You say that if Muslims are decent people it is ‘in spite’ of their dogma that teaches otherwise, don’t you?”

    Where did I say that Christians teach good dogma. Look up this blog and every comment I ever made and you will not find it.

    Note I do believe Christian Dogma is as bad as Muslim Dogma. I also believe that Western Christians had some of their nasty dogma marginalized. However, I do not think that is the same in Africa, nor do I believe that evangelical Christians have stopped supporting radical Christian movements in third world countries, nor do I believe that the Christian Dogma is free from radical ideology that serve as a ticking bomb for the next charismatic evil leader who can use it, etc. etc.

    We have already seen what a religious divide can produce in Bosnia just a few years ago. The head of the Serbian Church was offering blessings to fighters going to the front to massacre Muslims.

    If you think a concept like WWJD is enough to convince you that all is well with Christianity, then I really think you need to do more analysis of your position.

  195. I’m beginning to think this isn’t a real discussion. The total ignoring of many biblical verses acting as though only the ones they want to count, count. DIsregard for the role of slavery in the Roman empire and comparisons of Roman slaves as being like maids getting room and board- rather than like slaves really are- which is slaves. I’m out. It’s like being on shifting sand- I don’t think some people really want an answer- they just like to ask the next question- whether it makes sense or not, so that other people can work hard at putting together a response. Maybe this is the only way some people can feel they have “won” a disagreement. By out-lasting the others. It certainly doesn’t seem to be about anything real. And there are people out there that actually listen to me and value what I say even when they disagree. I’m going to go talk to them now.

    @MoQ,
    You put together some really good responses on this thread and you stated things well. I know we disagree on many fundamentals- but you know how to put forth a reasoned position and it’s a pleasure to read your posts even when I disagree.

  196. ‘If you think a concept like WWJD is enough to convince you that all is well with Christianity, then I really think you need to do more analysis of your position’

    ‘And there are people out there that actually listen to me and value what I say even when they disagree’

    OMG, are we even speaking the same language here?

    1.I never claimed ‘that all is well with Christianity’ if I thought so, I’d join ’em.

    2. I listened (read) what you had to say about slavery in the Bible. Problem is I asked where JESUS took slaves or condoned the taking of slaves as Mohammed did and you can’t show me that and yet I’M the one that isn’t ‘listening and valuing’?

    If someone was going around saying that Muslim men can have unlimited number of wives and treat them like crap then I would argue against them too. Does that automatically mean that I value and appreciate Islam?

  197. ‘Where did I say that Christians teach good dogma’

    You didn’t and I never claimed that you did, did I?

    I say that Luke 6 (Matthew 7 also teaches in verse 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets) is good dogma that Christians are taught. If they learned it, and believe in Jesus, then they cannot take fellow humans as slaves.

  198. @Lynn,

    Sorry, I am just responding to the many shifts and introductions of new concepts that you keep throwing around (i.e, WWJD, specifically saying that you can beat your slave severely is not supporting slavery, etc.)

    I never change my positions, I do believe both Islam and Christianity have dogma that support slavery. This is not just in the text, it is also supported by a long history of the practice. Your arguments about the characters, Holly Potter and possibly superman :), do not change these facts.

  199. @Sandy, Thank you…

  200. ‘Sorry, I am just responding to the many shifts and introductions of new concepts that you keep throwing around’

    Bull! The only reason i ‘throw’ anything else around is to try another way to get you to understand what I am trying to say so cut the bull MoQ.

  201. @Lynn,

    “Bull! The only reason i ‘throw’ anything else around is to try another way to get you to understand what I am trying to say so cut the bull MoQ.”

    You know Muslims also throw around nice verses like the ones you kept putting here. We can dismiss them because the religion has many verses that contradict them and are aggressive. Christianity does have the same type of aggressive dogma and verses. Sorry, I cannot dismiss them as easily as you do. Especially in the face of the bloody history of the religion.

    What I would consider Bull would be passing arguments with double standards in evaluating 2 badly constructed ideologies as a Rationalist position.

  202. The phrase “what would Jesus do or WWJD” came about as a reminder for people to ask themselves “as a Christian, how am I supposed to behave? what is expected of me? Oh yes let me look toward the one man who taught us how to behave…therefore how would Jesus do it?” ASSUMING that these people feel that Jesus taught a good and moral example they want to emulate him. They aren’t looking at the entirety of the bible OT and NT…they are looking primarily at the NT and the lessons of goodness and forgiveness etc. that were taught by Jesus (again assuming he existed). It has nothing to do with slavery because if you asked these people about Jesus owning slaves or saying it is a good thing they would look at you like you are crazy. The whole WWJD movement is about kindness, morality, treating others as you want to be treated, making right and moral choices, as a reminder of their belief in a moral imperative to act in a manner that would demonstrate the love of Jesus through the actions of the adherents….dogma or not that is NOT what WWJD is all about. Perhaps the dogma is forgotten or maybe it is ignored…the end result is people who want to focus on the loving examples Jesus taught and jetison the dogma. Is WWJD known in Africa where they are persecuting people? Probably not.

  203. ‘Christianity does have the same type of aggressive dogma and verses. Sorry, I cannot dismiss them as easily as you do. Especially in the face of the bloody history of the religion’

    That’s where you seem to be refusing to ‘listen’ to what I am saying. You keep assuming that I want to argue the validity of a religion when I am NOT. I am talking about a ‘character’ in a tale/fable/whatever and his attributes as written in the story. What he didn’t ‘abolish’ may be ‘proof’ that he is not ‘God’ but not in any way ‘proof’ that he was FOR the enslavement of human beings. The scriptures that I quoted are what that character expected of people.Unlike in the Quran, Jesus did not get any special treatment that excluded him from his own rules like the prophet of Islam and the amount of wives HE is allowed while all others were limited to 4.

  204. “. I am talking about a ‘character’ in a tale/fable/whatever and his attributes as written in the story. What he didn’t ‘abolish’ may be ‘proof’ that he is not ‘God’ but not in any way ‘proof’ that he was FOR the enslavement of human beings.”

    I understand your argument, you are not understanding mine. Saying you can beat your slave to the point of death is in my opinion a confirmation of slavery (a for position).

    Real simple Lynn. Think about it….

  205. “. I am talking about a ‘character’ in a tale/fable/whatever and his attributes as written in the story. What he didn’t ‘abolish’ may be ‘proof’ that he is not ‘God’ but not in any way ‘proof’ that he was FOR the enslavement of human beings.”

    I understand your argument, you are not understanding mine. Saying you can beat your slave to the point of death is in my opinion a confirmation of slavery (a for position).

    Also, you did not stop at the character comparison, you also argued when Christians make a position about slavery they see the example of the fictional Jesus and some how that impacts their position. I think history proved otherwise.

    My positions are simple and very well defined. You are confusing the argument with all these hypotheticals, which do not resemble reality.

    Those positions by the way are no different than the hypothetical positions of Muslims using the rosy verses of the Quraan or the nice stories from Hadith to support their positions, while ignoring history and the rest of the ugly dogma. You are just not seeing it because the fallacies in this case happen to be your own.

  206. oopps sorry my message got posted in the middle of typing and doubled somehow…

  207. Real simple MoQ, if you treat others as you would have them treat YOU would you enslave anyone? The Catholic church had finally realized that it needed to be spelled out to people so they did ‘in 1917, the new Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope Benedict XV condemned the “selling a human being into slavery or for any other evil purpose”.
    The Vatican II document “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World” stated: “Whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torture…whatever insults human dignity, subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery … the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed … they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator.”[118]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#Slavery_incorporated_into_Canon_Law

  208. The fact that people don’t follow what they’d been taught (for whatever reason) doesn’t mean it wasn’t taught to them.

    Clearly some top religious scholars felt that the message was out there so it’s not like I’m on my own here.

  209. LOL Lynn,

    “if you treat others as you would have them treat YOU would you enslave anyone?”

    Contradictions in the bible are the same as contradictions in the Quraan. In one spot you have treat others like you treat yourself, then in another spot beat your slave severely.

    What are you trying to prove with that argument.

  210. ‘Contradictions in the bible are the same as contradictions in the Quraan’

    Right, and contradictions tend to invalidate the premise of the whole thing, which is why I don’t take them as ‘gospel’ but that still doesn’t make me believe that there is any reason to believe that Jesus (as written about, in either book) would condone the ‘taking’ of slaves. That some people tried to justify it for their own personal gain does not change what is written as if to be out of Jesus’ own mouth. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!

  211. Whoa, I go out of town for a few days and this thread introduces Star Wars and Jedi Faith, Harry Potter likely eating bananas and Jesus possibly owning slaves! Interesting stuff! 😀

  212. Susanne! I was wondering where our resident Christian was!! Tell ’em! lol

  213. a portion of men always believe they have the right to rape, other swill do so but feel they have no binding duty to forbear, and will create any justification to do so. In America rape is so high due to the astonishing “confusion” as to what a sexually consenting woman would be. The reason the scholars enjoin this right is the same as for the soldiers in the video; there are no women in their midst powerful enough to tell them otherwise. The problem within islam is it’s scholars and their male domination attitude. as to the question of how a woman could advocate the slavery of other women (and the favored answer that it must be Islam) how did Christian women advocate the enslavement of African and Indian women? How does Phylis Shlafly and Ann Coulter advocate the disenfranchisement of women? How could the U.S. military advocate the torture of prisoners? How do men everywhere advocate the enslavement of other men?? Answer: They think they will benefit and not be harmed by it. As to slavery, read up on the debates about the transition from slavery to wage slavery and whether it was thought to be a vast improvement. For many, poverty forces them to live under the same conditions as some systems of slavery but we consider it to be their fault and thus their problem.

  214. Rape is about power, and the fact that many men regard women as second rate humans.
    The problem in this post is that Salwa Al AMutairi spoke openly about supporting the institution of slavery, and the fact that God allows men to force sex on the women they own. There is no escape from slavery.
    Your freedom, your human rights are taken away. You do not have the right to bodily integrity. You cannot decide to leave, you are nothing. And this women, and the scholars who taught her this, think that slavery and raping of women slaves is a good idea.

    This is about the lowest level you can get in human mroality.
    And the real problem is, that Islam clearly supports this immoral inhumanity.
    No amount of finger pointing at what happens elsewhere can change that; you cannot get much lower on the scale than allowing slavery and rape.

  215. Follow Jesus: do not marry, have no children, have no property, wander about preaching, die young. Jesus only preached for about 3 years. The fact is that he didn’t have much of a chance to develop his message. He never had the responsibility of creating a state or fighting off his oppressors and having to develop rules of war etc. The trouble with comparing Islam and Christianity is that early Christianity assumed everyone would die very soon. Islam assumed people would live. But this is neither here nor there. People of good will read any scripture as enjoining justice and love, if atheistic/humanistic they create rules that enjoin justice and love. People of ill-will read into scripture permission for injustice or create rules permitting injustice and hate.

  216. So basically scriptures are not really relevant
    In that case people really need to stop using scripture to push their insane iseas on others. but they don’t do they? To get back on Topic, Salway reccommends abducting Christian woman and making sex-xlaves out of them, because when Muslim men rape female slaves god says it’s ok, but when two consenting adults love each other, and care for each other, it deserves the death penalty.
    But what is in the scriptures is not really relevant.
    Only when they serve to enslave and rape and making people feel good about themselves while doing it.
    This is beyond absurd.

  217. Aafke-Art, It doesn’t justify, it explains something about people. You appear to believe that if we get rid of Muslims, and I imaging Hindus, Christians, Jews and all other religious people that we would never have people coming up with justifications for misogyny and all would be wonderful! No. If they need a secular reason they will create one! Wait we already have them! In the name of freedom, empowerment and progress it is argued that women like to be gangbanged for a hundred bucks (or at the least it’s great how they exercise their freedom to be exploited!)! Immigrants freely choose to work in conditions that don’t permit them to eat, drink or go to the bathroom, stand on their feet for 10 hours at a time, stay on shift when injured, work overtime whenever “asked,” and then not receive their pay. It’s permitted by the free market but that’s not slavery because they can choose their master? I think that this is horrible and wrong. I could further argue that free market secularists are immoral scum and should be persecuted for their beliefs but I recognize that not all free market secularist believe that such exploitation is permissible. So, I listen to their arguments and try to convince those secularists who do think it is permissible of the better view of free-market secularism.
    I think it would be nice if, similarly, the non-muslims stopped trying to spread injustice in the world in the name of Islam. But I suspect they will strangely claim, like the rapists in the video, they have no choice. They have to follow the misogyny where ever it leads……

  218. Yes Aafke-Art, your interpretation is absurd. So don’t follow it.

  219. Jay,
    “The problem I see here is that Muslims have painted themselves into a corner. The problem with the “Islam is perfect”, “the Quran is perfect” and “Mohammad is a noble example” positions is that any inconsistency, any bad verse or any action contrary to basic moral principles can be used against them. Since Muslims must (and do) take that position (a central point of theology), then it becomes easy for critics of Islam to hammer them on the head with their own verses and stories. Muslims then are forced to make excuses and defend the undefensible. Unfortunately there is not way out of this dilemma.”

    There is a way out. It’s called reform. The theology was created by scholars and people. It can be undone by scholars and people. Christians and Jews got rid of slavery, some got rid of misogyny and racism, so can Muslims. All they have to do is give up the idea that any humans are perfect; that includes Prophets, Imams and scholars. This can be done. BTW, there are some who believe the inconsistencies in the Quran can be explained by mistranslation. All you have to be willing to believe is that the system that binds the scholars’s power has a flaw in it. THe enlightenment was all about a few individuals challenging the status quo’s grip on intellectual power. If we accept that a few enlightened europeans were correct while most of their institutional scholars were wrong, why can’t we accept that the few enlightened Islamic scholars are correct and the institutions wrong?

  220. “If they need a secular reason they will create one! Wait we already have them! In the name of freedom, empowerment and progress it is argued that women like to be gangbanged for a hundred bucks”

    What!!! What law permits that Alice?

    Are you mistaken criminal acts and bad morals with secular laws.

    ” It doesn’t justify, it explains something about people. You appear to believe that if we get rid of Muslims, and I imaging Hindus, Christians, Jews and all other religious people that we would never have people coming up with justifications for misogyny and all would be wonderful! No.”

    What secularist argue for is not elimination of religious people nor religions. What we support is defining laws based logical principles, not a dogma from the bronze age. The issue with religion dogma and laws is they use outdated principles in the DEFINITION of Laws. Look at the top 2 theocracies in the world (Saudi and Iran) and compare to Western secular nations. Do you see improvements in freedoms, rights, etc. based on the secular laws.

    Of course there will be issues with systems as we will have people that will try to violate laws or use loop holes to get an advantage. However, the principles of secularism allow us to improve these laws and resolve issues without being hindered by outdated principles.

    Please, understand the issues before ranting.

  221. Alice. You don’t understand the point of discussion: This woman advocates abduction, enslavement and rape, based on the explicit approval of a god.

    If bad things happen in a secular country something can be done about it by people who disagree. Also, a secular countries with bad treatment of people will develop into a secular country where human rights are respected and people are treated well.

    If bad things are done to people in a dogmatically or religiously ruled country, and the ”holy book” explicitly says God endorses bad treatment of people, then it is impossible to change anything about it. Also such countries do no develop, they do not improve their morality, they are static.

    Your example of religions getting rid of slavery is wrong. The Abrahamic religions support slavery. It is only because countries become secular, and religions loose power, that slavery could be abolished.
    Reforms are forced on religions against their will. for example the Catholic church only lets go of their ideas when they have no other choice, like admitting that the Earth revolves around the sun. They only admitted the truth of it when they really had no other choice.

    And the danger of religions is that they may superficially adjust but they do not change their ancient books, even when the morality in those books is now considered bad. And as soon as somebody comes into enough power they can re-instate all those evil rules.

    Look at what’s happening in Uganda and Sudan, in Africa you see what Christianity and Islam are about with their friendly masks down. There you see what these religions are truly about when they are not restricted. Murder, genocide, maiming, misogyny, rape and slavery in the name of God. Abduction and torture of children to make them into damaged child soldier zombies for God. That is the true face of religion.

    So I am not against religious people, but I am against religious people forcing their bad morals and ideas on others. I think everybody should have the right to believe in any religion they like, but religion should not be awarded un-deserved respect, they should be treated with healthy skepticism, and nothing religious should ever be allowed in politics, schools, government offices, etc.

    Slavery is always lurking around the corner as long as religions exist, as you see in the declaration by Salwa.

  222. @Alice – ‘There is a way out. It’s called reform. The theology was created by scholars and people. It can be undone by scholars and people’

    But the problem is this Alice. The Quran. Word of Allah, how can that be changed by someone that calls themselves Muslim? Gonna try the ‘context’ argument? You can’t because it SAID it was for ALL times and ALL places. That makes it a little hard to wiggle out of.

    Re Jesus: ‘The fact is that he didn’t have much of a chance to develop his message. He never had the responsibility of creating a state or fighting off his oppressors and having to develop rules of war etc.’

    I don’t think that even if he’d had another 20 years to ‘develop’ his message, his ‘message’ wasn’t about ‘building a state’. His message wasn’t about ‘fighting off oppressors’ but actually the opposite of that. That is why there was no fighting, by anyone, when he was carrying that cross. His message WAS complete in one sentence. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If everyone DID that there would be no oppression. But no, not everyone will do that so he instructed them to ‘turn the other cheek’. I doubt you would find a Christian that would accept that his message was not complete.

    ‘but that’s not slavery because they can choose their master?’

    Which is why we have trade unions!

  223. Alice, Reform in Islam will not happen. You may have more moderate or more radical flavors, but you will never have a truly tolerant, liberal Islam. I submit the 57 nations of the Org of Islamic States as proof for this. They all discrimnate and persecute non-Muslims – even the so-called ‘good’ or ‘liberal’ ones like Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia. Heck they even discriminate against Muslims.

    Reform requires introspection and self-criticism. Reform requires honesty and a willingness to apply the same moral standards to all. believe me, a Muslim will not publicly admit that Allah and Mohammad were bad-ass guys that did a lot of vile things. I have never yet seen a Muslim that will publicly condemn Mohammad for the evil things he did. Well, that does make sense since it is hard to image any person saying “Yeah, my prophet did attack others, torture, loot, murder, enslave and rape, but he was really a good guy with a direct line to god.”

    What will gets me is how basic logic is lost upon Muslims. They will tell you that the Quran is perfect but then in the next breath say that the bad things some Muslims do is because they don’t understand Islam. Well, excuse me, but it seems that Allah can’t even right a page that people can understand. It seems that Allah let a lot of trash into her ‘perfect’ book. Even I could write a 1000 word ‘moral code’ essay that would be clear and unequivocal about basic moral teachings and it would be superior to the Quran. Take that (Also I wouldn’t waste time describing all the painful tortures that Allah will personally do those vile infidels.)

    This ‘Jesus vs Mohammad’ thing is a waste of time. rather than debate theology or ancient history, I submit that the issue is what is happening here and now. And what is happening is that Muslims are increasingly violent and obnoxious. They demand special rights and to be exempt from criticism. Islam is slowly tearing apart Europe, the US, Canada and Australia and the deviol will pay. Wilders has it right, kindof.

    Islam will not reform, much to the contrary. It will become more hateful, intolerant and agressive. Islam is going back to what it was in the days of the prophet.

  224. @Lynn,

    I know you will like this. To test whether WWJD is real or not. I have a simple assignment for you.

    – Find your nearest preacher
    – Walk to him then get his attention.
    – As he turns slap him on the face as hard as you can.
    – Please report back to us, if he turns the other cheek or not 🙂

  225. MoQ, I don’t care what Christians DO, I have only been talking about what the ‘fictional’ character named Jesus would do. How many times and how many ways do I have to say that same thing to you?

  226. @Lynn,

    The first time you brought up WWJD, you said this in support that Jesus is an example to Christians and if they emulate him, they will be peaceful:

    “That’s bull MoQ. Christians are supposed to consider WWJD? and act accordingly. If they did that they would be peaceful and not enslave people (according to how he is characterized in the ‘book’)”

    Now you say this

    “MoQ, I don’t care what Christians DO, I have only been talking about what the ‘fictional’ character named Jesus would do.”

    No wonder we cannot understand your position. Because you are not saying the same things.

    Gives us an insight how holy books can be full of contradictions. Considering they were written/edited/translated over 100’s of years and this contradiction happened in 2 days 🙂

  227. I am TOO saying the same things. I NEVER said that Christians DO just that they are SUPPOSED to and if they DID they would not enslave people. Seriously? You can’t understand that? I’ve never taken you to be an ignorant person but I see that you are relentless in your attempt to put words in my mouth.

  228. @Lynn, fine. So the entire argument of Jesus example is Moot.

    By the way you are the one that brought it up. So I am really done with this line of argument and turning the other cheek 😉

  229. MoQ! I swear to FSM I’m gonna put a curse on you!

  230. @Lynn, Wrong religion. Wiccans are the curse people. Followers of the FSM are drunken pirates. I expect you pass me a big jug of Ale. Arrrrrrrrr

  231. I do not limit myself to just ONE belief system. I take what I like from wherever I like, because I can, I am The Queen of All Things. You would do well to remember that, perhaps you should start addressing me as ‘Your Highness’?

  232. Wow, these last 3 posts clearly indicate this thread is going places. Exactly where I have no idea.

    FSM? Googled it! It is basically reformed Pastafarianism, linking the spiritual aspects of plate tectonics to organic aerostatic elements of primordial latium carnal nourishment. Hope that explains it! Also, please do not confuse with Spunky Space Monkeys at fsm.com. Lynn, ever modest, is both queen and high priestess. Watch out.

  233. 😉

  234. Checking this thread too to see if HS had commented about what his prophet did to the Banu Mustaliq tribe. No response.

    Yep, lets not talk about these things…. right?

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