Saudi Arabia: A Perspective on Islam

 

Charles “Chuck” Missler is an author, evangelical Christian, Bible teacher, former businessman and military intelligence officer.  In the following videos he presents a perspective which focuses on the origins of Islam.  There will be many offended by his statements or strongly disagree with them.  He offers a perspective, particularly on the origin, which is news to me.  The first two videos are about 10 minutes and the last video is less than 3 minutes.  I’m confident after watching these videos there will be interesting comments and debates.

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155 Responses

  1. I found a lot of incorrect information and I am not even Muslim. Dr. Missler kept on commenting on praying to idols. Praying to idols? Totally against Islam.

    I reckon the video is going to cause heated debate here. I think the bottom line is interpretation.

  2. I didn’t find anything new or surprising in these videos – but then again I’ve been studying Islam for nearly a decade. Everything Dr. Missler said is well-documented through a huge range of sources, and spot-on historically – especially the economic incentives to repackage the highly profitable pagan rituals associated with Mecca and the Kabba in response to the decline of paganism in the greater region. The truth might not sit well with some, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

  3. Hello all,

    I am a Muslim born and raised in Saudi Arabia. I hope that the things I will say will help shed some light about Islam; or at least help explain what Muslims here believe. I want to point out a few things as they come up in the video.

    Firstly I’d just like to say that I liked the beginning of the video and the idea of loving others regardless of religion that Dr. Missler opened with. This is how I believe things should be.

    According to Dr. Missler, the sole purpose of Islam is to bring the entire world under its subjugation. I disagree. From my perspective, and the perspectives of most other muslims, the purpose of Islam is to worship Allah so that one day we may make it to heaven. This is what we are taught here. It is written in the Quran Surah 51:Ayah 56 “I have not created the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” This is the reason Allah gives for creating mankind, to worship Him. Not to use our lives to force the rest of the world to come under rule of Islam by forcing them to become Muslims. Allah also says in Surah 2:Ayah 256 “there is no compulsion in religion.”

    Islam and democracy are not at odds with each other. Just because they don’t share the same name that doesn’t mean they cant coexist. Democracy is not against Islam. Islam guaranteed freedom to everyone. Freedom of speech and freedom of worshiping. That is the real Islam that prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) practiced. Unfortunately this is not what’s going on here in Saudi Arabia nowadays;we don’t have freedom of speech for example, but that does NOT mean this is Islam.

    I found Missler’s comments saying that the crescent moon is the primary symbol of Islam to be interesting. At least in Saudi Arabia, this is certainly not the case. And I also do not recall anything about the Prophet Mohammad choosing the crescent symbol for Islam, in fact the crescent moon came long after (centuries) after the Prophet Mohammed lived and Islam was born. Missler’s continued insistence that it is somehow relevant is absurd.

    Islam has nothing to do with the lunar cycle, I don’t see how any person can think this is relevant. In a society which once worshipped the moon it makes sense that their calendar was focused upon the moon. Why would we expect that following Islam they would suddenly change the way they calculated time? I also don’t see how a lunar calendar is being used by Missler to discredit Islam as a religion worshipping the same God he believes in. The moon has nothing to do with Islam, it’s simply the cultural way of knowing time. Just like how the holy Quran was revealed in Arabic, it’s because Arabic was the cultural language.

    The name Allah back around Prophet Mohammad’s time, and that of his father Abdullah, was known as “The God,” the same as the Christian God. It did NOT mean the moon god, at least at the times when Prophet Mohammad and his father and uncles were named. Arabic poetry predating Islam can prove this.

    I literally laughed a little when he said that the word “Islam” does not in fact mean submission, but rather meant a “desert warrior who doesn’t give up” (loose quote). Obviously I’m a native Arabic speaker. As such I have quite a good knowledge of the language, and I can’t see how that’s even possible.

  4. In the second part I was also astonished about his discussion on symbols. Of course he talks about the Crescent moon being a symbol of Islam, and then immediately follows that up with his “fascination” and “scholarly comment” about how “Satan loves symbols,” obviously not so subtley implying that Islam is a Satanic movement. Of course he quickly discusses how the symbolic cross in Christianity is “different” though, “more of a Catholic symbol” anyway…..
    Curious how to him symbols are viewed as Satanic unless we should find them in HIS religion.

    Missler makes a comment on how confusing and contradictory the Quran is. I don’t personally see it that way. I memorized the entire holy Quran by the Age of 15, and as it’s written in Arabic I had no difficulty understanding it. Now to grasp the full meaning of parts of the Quran it is necessary to know the historical context of when things were revealed.

    About the parts of the Quran quoted by Missler. “Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, take them as captives, besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every point of observation” Surah 9:Ayah 5. Yes! He is right. The Quran does indeed say this, however, what he failed to mention is that the Ayah directly following this commands Muslims to offer a shelter to those idolaters who come to them seeking safety. Surah 9: Ayah 6: ” And if any one of the idolaters should seek refuge with you, give him refuge, so that he may hear the Word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who do not know.” Not to mention the fact that he doesn’t even quote the entirety of Ayah 6 which is “Then, when the sacred months are over, kill the idolaters wherever you find them, take them as captives, besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every point of observation. If they repent afterwards, perform the prayer and pay the alms, then release them. Allah is truly All-Forgiving, Merciful.”

    Mind you, it is also of importance to note that this Surah came to the Prophet Mohammad during a time of War. The Ayah preceding the one he quoted also discusses how to deal with those idolaters who have made agreements with the Muslims: “Except for those idolaters with whom you made a compact, then they did not lend support to anybody against you. Honour your compact with them until the end of its term. Allah loves the righteous.” Surah 9:Ayah 5. Clearly one can see that the Ayah Missler quotes is not calling for indiscriminate violence towards non-muslims, rather it is instructing Muslims to fight those they are at war with, unless their enemy repents, and unless they come to them seeking safety. In that case you are to cease all fighting.

    His other quotes follow a similar pattern of not fully quoting the Ayah/relevant surrounding ones/misleading the listeners as to their intentions.

    Also I apologize for the length of this post! And there’s more I could say about these videos, but it’s obviously more than long enough.
    Thank you all for your time

  5. Not much new here. Certainly one can have a lof of fun showing how pagan the haj and the veneration of he kaaba is. I have had a chance to watch all 3 videos yet, so maybe he gets into how Islam has turned Muhammed into a god without the title.

  6. **haven’t had a chance

  7. All religions build on earlier religions, nothing new here. The crescent has always been a goddess symbol, and the kaaba was tended by seven women priestesses. Mohammed just kicked the women out of religion and social life and replaced them by men.
    Stones have always been objects of worship, from the earliest most primitive start of religion until now.
    Stones ”from the sky” were worshiped all over the world as sacred to the Great Goddess. This early worship is still apparent in lesser meanings in some places where these stones still have some importance. In Islam, because Mohammed (after giving up on Jerusalem) adopted the Mecca worship rituals and kaaba, it is still pivotal to the religion.
    And I have no doubt that the huge monetary advantage had some influence in that decision. And it was only after a few years that the Muslims decided to keep the place for themselves exclusively, and not allow other believers to worship there.

    Really religions don’t pop up just like that, they take whatever the constructors of the religions like from earlier religions, add a few new things, and always like to incorporate earlier symbols and usurp the holy places of earlier religions.

    Future religions will do the same things, the religions which will come after Christianity and Islam will take some of their attributes and make up a new religion.

    It’s interesting to see how believers of one religion can see how another religion is constructed, and how it has many inconsistencies, but they are totally blind when it comes to their own religion!
    Christianity has been constructed and developed and has borrowed in roughly the same manner, but he doesn’t see it.

    Symbols are bad? Satan loves symbols?
    That is just too hilarious!
    Especially from a Christian! Especially when I am just returned from the bible belt where you get the crosses and Jesus fishes shoved down your throat at every turn!!!!!!!
    Actually to me the compulsive application of a huge Spanish inquisition cross on every available surface from walls to purses seems almost a mockery of religion to me.
    But apparently this guy, who undoubtedly has at least five crosses on the walls of his house, and one on his fridge, and one around his neck, and one on his wallet, and photo frames with crosses, and at least one Jesus fish on his car, with maybe one or two crosses, can cheerfully acknowledge that ”Satan loves symbols”.
    When another religion or ideology uses them…

    I am seriously planning to buy a Texas bag with lots of bling, colors and embroidery and one of those huge bling crosses next time I am in Texas!
    😈

  8. I almost never visit anti-Muslim sites or much less watch anti-islam videos (I can do it all on my own). Even so, I find them often full of errors and unsubstantiated information (but probably not as much as in the pro-Islam stuff out there).

    .Abdul, I take serious issue with your words about Islam being supportive of democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of worshiping. You say that you memorized the Quran and it is easy to understand yet according to you people just can’t seem to practice the ‘real islam’. Is that it? No more thoughts? So Allah wrote a book that is so confusing that you people can’t figure it out or practice it correctl (your reference to “here in Saudi Arabia nowadays” is not convincing. How about “nowhere in the Muslim world ever”?). Wouldn’t that make Allah responsible for all the evils that Muslims do, because they don’t understand the Quran? Note also that the ‘historical context’ you refer to is almost unending war against non-Muslims, almost all of it unprovoked. sJust like the guy in the video, you also quote things yet ignore verses that are derogatory or call for violence aginst non-Muslims. You also ignore the historical context from the hadith. Personally, I would care about the hate and violence in the Quran and ahadith if Muslims today weren’t so damn violent and abusive of others. Since they are, I assume it is at least in part because of the vile things in those writings. Does that make sense to you, Abdul?

    Jerry, you are right. Basically, Mohammad is presented in the Quran as a co-god and partner to Allah. Also note that in response to Jesus and Christian theology, Mohammad has become the ‘perfect man’ and mediator between allah and mankind. Go figure.

    China was interesting and doing very well, thank you. You can almost smell the money in the air (or was that pollution in Beijing?). What I found fascinating was the neatness and sense of purpose I saw. The museums, in the streets and schools there is one theme: the glory and greatness of China. I didn’t see the fat, sloppy teens there we see in the US. There is no self-doubt or stupid multicultural guilt like in the West. the 21st century may belong to China. The Chinese are a very serious people.

    PS: Two things – Mohammad did change the way Muslims calculated time, and as to ‘context’ please explain that in Quran 9:111 for me.

  9. The guy’s thoughts on bumper stickers reminded me of what my preacher tells us. “You shall know them by their ‘I love Jesus’ bumper stickers? by their fish symbols?”

    No.

    “You shall know them by their fruits.” And according to the Bible the fruit if the Spirit is – sadly! – a lot of things you don’t see in most people who call themselves Christians.

    Symbols,labels, big old crosses..doesn’t matter.

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. ” (Gal. 5:22-23)

    ———————————–

    Interesting videos. Honestly I get tired of all the western Christians who are fearful of Islam taking over the world. Key word there: “fearful.” Be bold and brave. Don’t be scared of them.

  10. Sorry American Bedu ,but I feel surprised why you as muslim publish those videos. I’d like you to publish this video also :

  11. Did watch all the three videos by Dr. Missler. I found them highly informative, greatly balanced and extremely well referenced. Like all the other “religions” or “cults”, the most important stages in Islam’s history were characterized by the assimilation of “foreign” influences, cultures, etc.

    Its founder, Muhammad, did not proclaim any new ideas. He did not enrich earlier conceptions of man ‘s relation to the transcendental and infinite. The Arab Prophet’s message was an eclectic composite of religious ideas and regulations. The ideas were suggested to him by contacts, which had stirred him deeply, with Jewish, Christian, and other elements.

    Muhammad was not an original thinker. He did not formulate any new ethical principles, but merely borrowed from the prevailing cultural milieu. The eclectic nature of Islam has been recognized for a long time. Even Muhammad knew Islam was not a new religion, and the revelations contained in the Koran merely confirmed already existing scriptures. The Prophet always claimed Islam ‘s affiliation with the great religions of the Jews, Christians, and others. Muslim commentators have acknowledged that the Prophet transferred to Islam the beliefs and practices of the heathen or pagan Arabs, especially into the ceremonies of the pilgrimage to Mecca.

    And yet Muslims in general continue to hold that their faith came directly from heaven, that the Koran was brought down by the angel Gabriel from God himself to Muhammad. The Koran is held to be of eternal origin, recorded in heaven, lying as it does there upon the Preserved Table by the bedside nightstand of Allah (85.21, 6.19; 97).

    God is the source of Islam. To find a human origin for any part of it is not only vain but also meaningless and, of course, blasphemous. Perhaps Muslims have the unconscious fear that if we can trace the teachings of the Koran to a purely human and earthly source, then the entire edifice of Islam will crumble.

    But as a great philosopher once said, “Religions are facts; they must be discussed as facts, and subjected to the rules of historical criticism.” Critical study of the origins of Islam will only yield definitive historical results when it is carried out in a purely secular and profane spirit by people uninfluenced by dogmatic theology. Only then will we recover the historical Muhammad, and only then will his extraordinary life be integrated as a part of human history, with a secular meaning for all of us: Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

    To put it bluntly, Islam is not an invention, but a concoction. There is nothing novel about it except the genius of Muhammad in mixing old ingredients into a new panacea for human ills and forcing it down the throats of others by means of the sword …. as it is happening presently across the globe and as it has happened in the centuries past.

  12. While he does stretch some facts, anyone can read the history of Islam and Arabia and discover the truth of what he claims. No big secret unless you choose not to read…or at least just read the “good” stuff. The fact that god makes mohammed such a central point of islam…without submission to the ways, thoughts, and beliefs of mohammed you cant be a good or devout muslim…indicates mohammed was rather an egomaniac and wanted muslims (and the world) to remember him long after he left this earth. What better way then to make sure you were a central point of the religion you created.

    Im constantly amazed at Muslims who defend Islam and Mohammed with such dedication, completely ignoring the blood that covers every aspect of the history of it. Along with christianity, these religions are soaked in blood…where is the peace?

  13. I wonder how this evangelical christian would explain the origins of christianity or does he literally believes as an atheist puts it “that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.”

    If I wanted to learn about the “origins” of Islam there are numerous historians and scholars that have written on the origins of Islam from a secular perspective. This guy simply believes that all other religions are derived from pagan cults but his own religion is somewhat “divine.”

  14. I do wish Missler had said something about the origins of Islam. He only speaks about the continuance of the pilgrimage site after Muhammed became the leader. it does surprise me that Muslims find the divinity of Jesus as absurd but give their own leader a status as at least semi-divine.

    The difference between Christianity and Islam is a matter of degree. It happens that we are lucky enough that the age Christian supremacy is finally over (the moon landing include a cross). Islam is still in the aggressive stage that Christianity was 500 years ago. Maybe in a few hundred years Islam will be moderate and peaceful.

  15. Missler is talking rubbish. He does not know anything about Islam but confused. I would advise Muslims not to listen to him.

  16. BBC takes on ‘Life of Muhammad’

    People should see and hear from learned non-Muslims (if u dnt like to hear from Muslims). I just finished to see the first part (2 other parts are still to come). It was really well framed and well documented. BBC did its best to show the right information about Muhammad(SAW) by gathering information from both Muslims and Non-Muslims historians.

    Please wait and see next 2 parts, its really worth watching.:

    http://www.livestream.com/amcnational/video?clipId=flv_ec8cd771-06a1-4705-aeff-2f1ba96e195e&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

    Here is also a movie on the life of Muhammad (PBUH).

    Its sad when people ignore the very fact and completely show the opposite.

  17. May be Bedu may like to publish the live video of Former Christian preacher and watch fully:

  18. I can understand that Islam is a real threat for Dr.chuk himself it takes his poweras religionleader
    thats why he is saying that myths and lies about islam,
    for an another veiw :
    http://www.onereason.info

  19. Allah moon god ?!
    http://www.shareislam.com

  20. This is a case of the Pot calling the Kettle black 🙂

    The speaker in these recordings completely ignores that Christianity is also a religion with pagan heritage and symbolism. Virgin birth, trinity, healing the sick, raising the dead, etc. are all important Christian concepts, but they also existed in pagan religions of the time.

    Islam of course has its share of the same. The issue here is this man attacks another religion for the sole purpose of giving validity to his own. When you look under the covers you find the same issues for both religions.

    Further, Charles Missler or the Peanut Butter man (see video for reference), is not above lying and deceiving in making the case for his religious believes.

    For anyone who knows the Theory of Evolution, a minimum of 2 lies can be easily spotted in the video:

    1) Evolution is not a theory about the origin of life, it is a theory which explains the diversity of life after it formed. So right from the start they lie even about the context of the theory.
    2) The field of he was attacking was Abiogenesis,. A totally separate area of research. Even in that case he totally misrepresented what scientists have put forward. No scientist advocates that complex life forms, such as bacteria, can arise in a few days in a vacuum sealed peanut butter jar. The theory involves millions of years of simple self replicating molecules advancing in complexity before you get to the most primitive forms of single cell organisms.

    Why is all the above important?

    It seems that religious quacks on both side of the fence (Islam and Christianity) try to establish themselves as authority on many topics from History to Science. Along the way they twist facts and lie to gain prominence. Charles Missler is an Engineer by training. He certainly understood or could have easily understood the theories he was attacking with his peanut butter theory. However, he chose to lie.

    The same can be said of many of the videos posted by the Muslims on this thread. The creators of those videos are purposely lying to the believers to keep their prestigious positions. Along the way they create hatred for others and confuse their followers on topics including scientific work.

    We all should reject such self promoting crooks. Even if you follow a religion, you should be the first to be concerned over such people representing your faith.

  21. MoQ.. in the original Islamic values.. it is not allowed for any religionman to control muslims, or try to do that, even if some of thim tryed to do that, this is not islamic thing, Quran told Muhammad himself (pbuh) : you are not over them a controller, (chapter 88 ver.22 : suratu al gashiah : 22) that means in my opinion : introduce submition to the only One God , the Creator, then let them chose for their disteny, they are
    who will be held in account for their choices at the end .
    “Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth, So whoever
    is guided – it is for the benfit of his soul: and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you (Muhammad) are not a manager over them ” (ch.39 ver.41: suratu Az-Zumar :41)
    and allow me to sugest this site to lead u to evaluate by yourself, without any guardianship of any man, how is Islamic prespectiv in big science essues , for example, wchicg is imposiable for Muahmmad to know about it according to all circumestanses and inflwenses he could have that time of the early age of Islam:

    http://www.scienceislam.com
    http://scienceislam.com/scientists_quran.php

  22. He totally massacres evolution ( such as scientifically known) .. boy he’s badlyin need of some science education. It’s one thing to be ignorant and another to spread ignorance !!!! I don’t really care what he says about religion, but I get upset when someone thrashes science…

  23. Why do creationists always come up with these really dumb and inappropriate comparisons?

    Oh yeah, because they don’t have anything else.

    This bozo clearly has never lived in a student dorm. If he had he would know that peanut butter, and all vacuum sealed foodstuffs, can and will eventually spawn new and unknown life forms.

  24. Bedu,

    GET A JOB WOMAN!!

  25. Stacey,

    GET A LIFE!
    Or at least get some basic info. Carol is fighting cancer right now, that is her job right now.
    Get some perspective.
    Get some basic empathy with others.
    Sad!

  26. @Stacey, if you don’t like the blog don’t come here. It’s really as simple as that.

  27. @Stacey,
    If you don’t like what is being said, why not address what is being said rather than direct your anger at someone who is not at the root cause of your anger? By insulting her, it just makes you look like a bad person and does not really accomplish anything.

    I also do not appreciate you insulting her like that.

  28. Carol and AA, I have a question. Over the last few years I have seen nothing but mildness and moderation from both of you, mixed with cool reason (well, except maybe the horse thing for AA). You both are, for all practical purposes, reasonable and responsible – and not afraid of contrary or unpopular opinions. I hope you can make room for a somewhat stupid question.

    I refer to AA’s comments about creationism. Let me share a personal dilemma. I realize that creationism as commonly explained is silly, yet I find evolution to be an unsatisfying answer to the big question. .I am reasonably well educated and have always been quite curious about life and the many wonders on our planet. As I grow old(er) I find myself asking ‘what does this all mean’… I can accept evolution but only to a certain extent. For the life of me, I cannot see how even simple life forms evolved much less more complex multi-cell organisms. I have done some reading on basic cell structure, which is incredibly complex, so much that it appears there is no way in hell it could happen by chance not even in the most favorable lab conditions, not in 4 billion years. Note that the human body and things such as DNA are so complex that it staggers the imagination. I have never seen a good explanation for how vision evolved – can you imagine the ‘it just happened by adaptation and natural selection’ principle applied to the pupil, cornea, iris, vitreous jelly, and retina and on to the optic nerve. Never happen. No wonder that most scientists gave up on spontaneous life on earth and began looking for a seeding mechanism from space, usually comets.

    There are other things. Why are we alone in the universe? Oh yes I know that they have discovered hundreds of earth-like planets recently but that term ‘earth-like’ is unscientific. The fact that the earth is habitable only because a thousand factors are ‘just right’ (like the three bears story). I have also noted that evolutionists are usually dishonest about the basic principles of their science, in that they will say that all mankind has evolved equally, which could not be true under classical theory. Note also that the so-called human tree of life has been revised many times in my lifetime, and experts continually revise data, timelines and family classifications, not to mention the endless arguments about physical abilities and mental capabilities.

    It doesn’t all add up, or at least it is not convincing. Maybe this is just the young preacher’s kid in me, but , but, at times I think the biblical-life end time scenarios is much too probably to ignore. As I have said here, I sometimes feel we – humanity – are being set up for a final apocalypse. You have to understand that I am not religious and I don’t go to church, but 50 years ago I sat on a hard bench and listened to my dad and others say that the end times would focus around Israel and that all nations, including the US, would turn away from it, that there would be great immortality, that knowledge would be increased and people would travel all over the earth. This makes me uneasy. In many ways we see much of what I was brought up hearing about happening even if in ways nobody ever imagined. Why all the oil in the Middle East? If it were not there, Muslims and Arabs would be a backwater like Paraguay. Who imagined the massive immigration of Muslims to the West? This too has worked to push Jews back to Israel (as in the Bible) and turn people against the jews. The basic concept I see growing around the world is that if the Jews and Israel ceased to exist, life on earth would be peaceful and wonderful. Who would have imagined the rapid breakdown of western morality as has happened since the 60s (remember the ‘words about the end times being like Sodom and Gomorra?). And so on. To me, at times, it seems that things are happening that are beyond our control. We are being manipulated and there is nothing we can do to change things. We are being set up, it seems.

    And there is the Muslim mentality thing. For the life of me I cannot understand how a group of people – most of them whom I assume are as intelligent as I (not that that is anything to write home about) – can be so blind about their dogma, their own writings and their actions and the consequences of their actions. It is as if they, too, are being used like pawns, willingly.

    I am uneasy. I am sure that things will not continue much longer as they are now.

    Am I crazy? Could we be seeing an apocalypse-like end-time scenario with 2/3s or 3/4 of humanity dying from famine, war and disease? AA, those would be horsemen you wouldn’t like. Do people understand how fragile modern society is? It has been said that we are 7 meals away from barbarism. Any major disruption in the food supply would mean chaos and fighting in the streets. We know that there are some mean viruses out there that could bring havoc to mankind (Imagine Ebola mutating and going global).

    I guess I am just wondering if my dad is right after all. He is still alive and plans to stick around until Jesus returns – and no, he isn’t like that Jones guy. I didn’t ask him but I known he would say that preacher is an idiot and then quote the “no man knows” verse. I don’t know but if an earthquake destroys the Dome of the Rock and the Jews start building the 3rd temple, watch out!

    Anyway, sorry for the long post. This started out about my doubts about evolution (just like Creationism) and ended up in an eschatological mishmash.

    I repeat, am I crazy or just too darn wishy-washy? Maybe it is old age and a natural reflection on my mortality, trying to make sense of things. Do we live and die and that is the end of it?

    Jay

  29. I lost interest in the first two minutes. Is there somewhere I could just skim-read through the dialogue? Interesting comments overall, though.

  30. Jay,
    I hope you don’t mind if I give my opinion. If you don’t want to read it, that’s okay, too. I am not one to buy into the theory of evolution, at least not how it is explained today in theory. I am also skeptical of the idea that the whole universe just happened by some weird coincidence, so from the viewpoint that their is some creative life force that is sustainable, holds everything together and at least started the universe, I believe in a creator, in one God or whatever you’d like to call it. I believe in intelligent life on other planets in the universe, too.

    However, I am extremely skeptical of doomsday scenarios. I think the only way a lot of humans are going to die off around the world is if either we all die in the event of a supernova of the sun or if there is a mass war because humans became even greater idiots and started killing each other off in larger quantities and percentages than ever before. I am not counting on either one happening anytime in the foreseeable future. I think the idea of aliens taking over earth because they want to live here or want what we have is a bit arrogant, and self-centered as well. Let me get this straight? Aliens with ability to travel to our planet choose to live here when they could just as easily travel to a different planet that may have more natural resources and a cleaner environment than ours? Again, even if aliens do exist, I’m not buying this type of doomsday scenario.

    Morality has never been perfect; it’s always been lacking in some ways. Just in certain times in history it wasn’t publicized to the extent it is today. What about when people used to get killed just because the had darker (or lighter, in some cases) skin than others? What about when women in the US had no rights? Or when some people committed murders, rapes, abuse, etc. and were never caught because the means weren’t there to catch them? How is this any worse/better than today as far as morality goes?

    I think maybe it is not that you are getting old, just that maybe you are getting wiser and beginning to notice the same things that have always been there. A lot of people don’t want to take notice of the bad things that happen in the world because it makes them feel insecure and less in control of their one life; it makes them scared. I think when one no longer lets fear control their lives, they start to notice new things that they didn’t notice before.

    Again, I’m not AB or AA, but just my two cents.

  31. ‘Do we live and die and that is the end of it?’

    Yep. probably, but I don’t see anything bad in that.

    Lori, I agree with you. I could tell right away that he was going to be ignorant and inflammatory and not worth watching.

  32. @samar arifi,

    You must be new here, and assume we do not know much about the religion 🙂

    Let’s take your references:

    – suratu al gashiah : 22: Yes this is the surah in the Quraan where Allah describes all the torture for none believers. The context is not about religious leaders not having control. It is about the prophet not having any responsibility, when the revengeful deity tortures none believers (i.e. if you do not listen to me, then my big bad sky daddy will fry your A**). I advise you to read your own holy book and understand the context of that reference.

    – suratu Az-Zumar :41: Also has the same idea that the prophet is not responsible for the none believers.

    I am not sure how do you get that these verses say “it is not allowed for any religionman to control muslims” .

    Now if we look at the prophet of Islam as an example of the first religious leader of Islam and the example to emulate, you can find plenty of evidence of him directing Muslims on how they conduct their lives including directing them to wage wars in Jihad.

    Regarding Islam and Science: I have read those arguments on the sites you posted before and find them false. For example Islam has a creationist dogma. Trying to say Islam is compatible with evolution is intellectual acrobatics. If you are serious about debating these arguments, then post your positions rather than linking to sites that use shady evidence an false arguments.

    “or example, wchicg is imposiable for Muahmmad to know about it according to all circumstansis and inflwenses he could have that time of the early age of Islam:”

    samar, You are not the first Muslim I have encountered, who made such claims. The problem is every time I challenge a Muslim to provide evidence of such claims they disappear at the first sign of logical scrutiny. I hope you won’t join the rest of the crowed.

    Please, state your claim(s) and your evidence of miraculous unknown knowledge and lets see if any of it can stand 🙂

    Cheers…

  33. @Jay,

    No offence is intended here, but your comment shows that you do not understand the theory of evolution. There were a number of fallacies about the theory. That can be because of reading creationists representations of the theory (I saw some of the Peanut Butter Man stuff in your comment). No wonder this is a source of confusion for you.

    I recommend “The Blind Watchmaker” by Richard Dawkins. This book can really explain many of the questions you had and more importantly it can resolve your confusion about the theory.

    Enjoy!!!

  34. Jay,

    I believe in a higher being (God) and that one day if we live right, we will join him in eternal life.

  35. ‘…and that one day if we live right…’

    And who gets to determine what ‘live right’ means?

  36. And by “live right” that means we must first believe in that “higher being” first and foremost?. Such narcissm and ego.

  37. Actually she didn’t say that.

  38. Dear @jay kactuz,
    I feel just like you. I don’t get involved in arguments about religions and such for the very same reason you mentioned. I apologize in advance if my reply to you is going to be long.

    Firstly, I disagree with you about Islam not supporting democracy. You should know though that my idea about democracy is -and tell me if I’m wrong- guaranteeing the right for everyone to express their cultures and feelings, having freedom of speech and letting people practice in making decisions that involve all of them. there are proofs based on history of Islam and some parts of Quran supporting each of these three individually. For example, I’ve mentioned a story about Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) when some people from Habashah came to Almadinah and started doing their dance and how people gathered over them and watched them. they did it inside the holy mosque and Prophet Mohammad didn’t stop them or tell them not to do it again. in fact he just sat and watched and let his wife lean on his shoulder and watch too. that proves that everyone has the right to express their culture. there is absolutely nothing in Islam telling us not to respect other cultures.

    About freedom of worshipping. It’s All known through history that Muslims and non Muslims have lived together peacefully in Islamic countries. In fact, Jewish people lived in three cities around Almadinah back at prophet Mohammad’s time. They had their places of worshipping of course! Also, there is something sacred about the Arabian Peninsula, Islam has a saying that non Muslims shouldn’t live in it unless for a reason. But Islam is not only in the Arabian Peninsula! And again, if you read through history you’ll find that Muslims and non Muslims have Always lived together peacefully -especially Jews-. So that proves freedom of worshipping. Mind you though, Converting from Islam into any other religion is NOT accepted in Islam. But I don’t think that’s against freedom of worshipping basically because back in the day Islam was not only a religion, it was like the whole country’s ruling system. Back in the day, All muslims were prepared for war because they didnt sign truce contracts with other countries. And they would know about the decisions that involve all of them. Essentially leaving Islam then would have been similar to treason today; a betrayal of your country. To make this simple. say theres a guy who is in the american army. He cant just decided to go over to a country that is against america and join their army. He will get punished for that.

    It’s true that Quran is easy to understand. But people are different. We all know what is commanded by religion and we all know what is forbidden. Some people choose to do what is forbidden even though they know they shouldn’t do it. And that’s how it is in every religion and country. That is not against what I said about Quran being easy to understand. Unfortunately though, you don’t know about good people who are following the true Islam.. For example, what happened in 9/11 is totally against Islam. In Quran Allah said “Except for those idolaters with whom you made a compact, then they did not lend support to anybody against you. Honour your compact with them until the end of its term. Allah loves the righteous.” Surah 9:Ayah 5. Saudi Arabia -as all other countries- signed with the United Nations not to be in war against America or any other country. So we are commanded to honor it. Saying Islam is not practiced correctly everywhere in the Islamic word ever is a little bit extreme though. Do not judge Islam based on what other people do. Judge only people for what they themselves do. Some people are good and some others are bad, even in Islamic world. We’re all people you know. You don’t know All Muslims in the world Jay.

    I did NOT quote verses and ignore others though. I only made a comment to the parts of Quran that came in the video. The quotes I used were taken from Ayahs immediately surrounding the Ayah in question, not just randomly pulled from elsewhere. But most, if not all, of the ayahs and hadith that talk about killing have a context of war. They are not meant to be taken to mean Muslim’s should be killing non Muslims indiscriminately in peaceful times.

    Muslims shouldn’t be violent. Islam tells us to be kind to everything. It’s a base in Islam not to harm yourself and not to harm others. The word “others” includes jinn, people and animals. Islam told us NOT to even insult people who don’t worship Allah (Surah 6:Ayah 5) and it’s against the religion to even kill animals for no reasons. Islam is not even too violent in war. For example, while in war it is forbidden to kill young children, women and old people who didn’t fight against Muslims. Now I understand why a lot of other people think Islam is violent and I don’t blame them. If all they hear from their media about Islam are about those Muslims who are acting violently and killing innocent people it certainly paints a picture. But that doesn’t mean all Muslims are like that. And it most certainly doesn’t mean it is a part of Islam. People will twist anything to fit their agenda.

    In responce to the last two points at the end of your post. It is not true that prophet Mohammad changed the way Muslims calculated time. A few years after the prophet died, Omar started counting the years starting from the year prophet Mohammad moved to Almadinah. And there is an interesting story behind that. The point that I was trying to make is that prophet Mohammad did NOT change the names of the months. They kept the names the had because basically -as I said- it was the way to tell time in their culture.
    As for Surah 9: Ayah 111. The Ayah says: “Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.”
    You need to know that this Surah ” at-tawbah ” talked alot about war. because it came to the prophet during war. its the only Surah in the entire Holy Quran that doesn’t start with “in the name of Allah the most gracious the most merciful” and some people actually explained that to be because this particular surah discussed war and that doesn’t go with mercy. and actually, I can tell you when exactly this particular Ayah came to prophet Mohammad. and you’ll see from the context how easily you can understand the meaning. this particular Ayah came to the prophet after non Muslims in Makkah started a war against Muslims and started killing them and torturing them. so prophet Mohammad peace be upon him decided to move to Almadinah and start a country over there. so, He met 70 people who came from Almadinah as Muslims. so he told them he wants to move there. and they Asked him what he wants for his god and himself. He said:” as for my god, i want you all to worship only him. and as for myself I want you to protect me from whatever you protect yourselves from”. then they asked if they do that, what do they get? prophet Mohammad told them:”heaven”. then they all shouted:”that’s a winning contract. you cant break it and we cant too”. and that’s when the Ayah came to the prophet. it is about these 70 people.
    I hope this helps you understand the Ayah better. I’m sure you understand the words and you only wanted me to tell you the context right?

  39. “Actually she didn’t say that…”

    Not sure if this was directed at me but I will reply anyhow. I was not indicating AB said that…but that religion says that. Atheist can lead moral lives but nobody who believes in religion really believes they are going to heaven at the end of the day (so to speak) simply because they refuse to believe in a higher being (god).

  40. MoQ,

    yes u can say I am kind of new here ..
    But first of all let me say, in this kind of serious arguments , I feel sorry about my lemeted English languestic skils, that may couse lack of poth : full undertanding in some of the points u wrote, and how should I express my ideas, that is why I put links refere to the Ideas I cannot express properly .

    let`s agree at the begining that when u read with negative atitude toward Islam (Islam =submision to The Creator) it is normal that u just want to argue just to chalenge not to find the truth but to gain personal vectory, u dont want to seek the truth arent u ? whith this u wont understand what the other person tring to say againest your opinion, so dont bother your self by completing this (selly) thoughts .

    If you chosed to continue , get ready for long post ; )

    and let me be honest and tell u that, with all respect, I dont care at the end if u become persuaded in what I am saying , I dont have enough time to follow all the arguments to the end with u, there are lots of duties and activeties waiting for me more important than keep argueing whith any one about the sun light , that is why some Muslims stopped argueing with you, and I may stop also in the point when I feel I decleared my opinion enough. Actually , we learnt that from the QurAan , when the Creator tought us :
    *{Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth, So whoever
    is guided – it is for the benfit of his soul: and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment. And you (Muhammad , and muslims) are not a manager over them } (ch.39 ver.41: الزمر :41)
    * {So if they argue with you, say, “I have submitted myself to Allāh [in Islām], and [so have] those who follow me.” And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, “Have you submitted yourselves?” And if they submit [in Islām], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away – then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allāh is Seeing of [His] servants.}
    آل عمران : 20 ، chap. 3 ver.20
    * {And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, “For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant.”} (ch.28 ver.55 القصص : 55)

    I only try to entroduce and clear the Islamic prespective, that is according to my own undestanding of my religion, which I dont claim it is the (exactly) true Islamic prespective, that becouse I am a humen thenker who is educated , but not specialized, in Islamic studies, and I am like any other humen; we are lemited in our understanding and awearness about the life and what is really true, and that is why we need someone teachs us, I chosed my Creater to be this one, I accept the messsage from my Creater, becouse he is the best who knows about his Creaturs.

    This is what makes u honest whith your self, It is the modesty of human who seek the trouth, againest his strong desire to be broud about his abilities or opinions , Modesty for the sake of the real God regardless to those who couldnt leave thier stubit broud when they seek or argue about the truth.

    Actually, this is my main intrest this days; to know the reasons of truth rejection, when someone find the truth. I found one of the main reasons is that extreem proud in the humanself, some times it could be a good feature but not with your Creator. And this is one of the wisdoms I took from reading the QurAan, when the Creator talks about disbeleive He refere it a lot to that extreem proud.
    *{Indeed they, when it was said to them, “There is no deity but Allāh,” were arrogant . And were saying, “Are we to leave our gods for a mad poet?”} ch.37 ver.35 & 36 الصافات : 35 و36

    By the way, any strong believe affect your life, thoughts, and behavure could be kind of god for u. even your desires and selfishness cuold be god in your life . specially when u cannot liberate your self from its influence.

    According to my reseache in faith and life, I became to believe that Allah (the Creator) is the true god, so I believe that Allah only who knows the true, and we r just trying to learn from him throw his last complete message (QurAan) and his last massenger (Muhammad pbuh), so the Creator created us and didnt leave us whithout guidance, and becouse we are honered and respected, He sent miraculous messages for us – no blind faith in Islam-, then we practice whorshipping according to what we understand of our religion and His message. thats why u shoudnt put the mistakes of Muhammad`s falowers (pbuh) on Islamic teachings.

    regarding to Muhammad`s jihad (pbuh) , its clear that u have convused information, misconseptions , and common lies, it spread widly in media by enemies of Muhammad (pbuh). I suggest u to learn more about what the term (Jehad) mean In Arabic, and from Islamic respected references or web sites , such as : http://www.aboutjihad.com

    and, please , for truth sake, dont bring selected information about Jihad form extreemists sites just to support your point of viwe.

    After deep thinkng and comparations , I found the Islamic perespective scientefic and logical more than any life concept theories, and QurAan it self is living Evedence, It is easy to say it is not, but it is deficult to thenk ( openly, and seriuosly ) in that at least as a posibilpleity .

    let`s take the miracle of the book it self (QurAan),
    do u know one book better than this book give us better answers of the main simple qustions about our selfs, specially in the most important isssus;
    who are us?
    who made us?
    why we are here?
    what should we do?
    where are we going ?

    do u know one gaidence book remain the same between its followers, for 1400 years ?
    do u know one gaidence book more Effective in its followers and in human history ?
    do you know other book made , under its effect, huge civelization for more than 500 years ?
    do you know other book made , under its effect, the strongest in its time empire for more than 700 years ?

    this kind of qustions part of the historical meaculs in QurAan, but there is more in many aspects and kinds of meraculs, let me suggest this one, just as an example :
    THE MOUNTAINS CREATED AS PEGS (OR PICKETS)

    {Have We not made the earth as a bed, And the mountains as pegs?}

    (Surat An-Naba’ (The Great News): 6-7)
    cuntinue the explanation in this link please :

    http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/main.php?id=53

    O dear , Read carefully, think openly, be honest with your self, then answer me : do u know better, better book in all aspects , all in one book ? tel me please, I may follow it If u could prove honestly it is petter in all, or even most, aspects.

    or listen :

    {o mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous
    [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allāh equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
    And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a sūrah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allāh, if you should be truthful} ch.2 ver. 21&22&23 البقرة : 21و22و23


    {how can you disbelieve in Allāh when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned.} ch.2 ver28 البقرة : 28

  41. @ Abdulrahman Baqais

    Typical muslim rant … a real long one at that …. a sanitized version of islam :)-

  42. @Harry

    All this is true and based on islam -I can show you references-. and since you’re saying its “typical”, have you ever considered that it’s what Islam really is?

  43. @Abdulrahman -‘Actually, this is my main intrest this days; to know the reasons of truth rejection, when someone find the truth’

    I’d guess that they didn’t ‘believe’ that it was the truth. If they used to believe and then now they do not then obviously something came along to make them have a different understanding. Perhaps someone came along and told them the ‘Real Truth’?

    I honestly cannot imagine a person believing strongly in a God and it’s message and acting as if they didn’t believe just so they could drink alcohol or have sex outside of marriage. Perhaps the person was going along with the story that he was raised with and behaving as he has been taught to behave even though they never really felt a strong belief in the story in the first place. Or perhaps they feel that the story isn’t so bad, it makes people behave if they listen to it but it’s not like I need to worry about ‘Hell’ or anything. But they dare NOT ever tell anyone that they don’t believe because then, according to the religion that they’d been taught, they should be killed.

    Now if what you mean is you want to find out why people don’t EVER believe the ‘truth’ when they are told it is another thing and it shouldn’t take any study at all as it is very simple. The ‘Truth’ clearly did not ring true to them, simple as that. What may seem so simple and clear to you, or another believer, just looks like a ridiculous attempt to gain power and control to them. It’s not that they are just being stubborn in refusing to believe so that they can do bad things it’s just that they simply don’t believe and nothing has struck them as ‘Truth’ and they don’t want to pretend to believe something that they don’t.

  44. @samar – ‘And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a sūrah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allāh, if you should be truthful} ch.2 ver. 21&22&23 البقرة : 21و22و23’

    Do you understand the concept ‘beauty is in the eye of the beholder’?

    Who gets to determine whether or not the ‘surah’ that someone else comes up with isn’t much greater than ANY in the Quran? A fervent believer in the Quran would NEVER agree that anything else is better but others who are not convinced by the Quran might see many other things much more beautiful to their eyes and ears. Right?

  45. @samar – do u know one gaidence book more Effective in its followers and in human history ?

    Have you ever read The Constitution of the United States of America?

    With the state of the Muslim world I don’t think you should want to be speaking so proudly about their ‘book of guidance’.

  46. @Samar,

    “regarding to Muhammad`s jihad (pbuh) , its clear that u have convused information, misconseptions , and common lies, it spread widly in media by enemies of Muhammad (pbuh). I suggest u to learn more about what the term (Jehad) mean In Arabic, and from Islamic respected references or web sites , such as : http://www.aboutjihad.com
    and, please , for truth sake, dont bring selected information about Jihad form extreemists sites just to support your point of viwe.?

    You have made many assumptions without even knowing what I read, what I know, what sites i go to etc.

    For your info, I read Arabic, I read the Quran many times, I have read more Islamic books in their original form than I can count, etc. etc. I know Islam form its sources. It is arrogant and rude to assume that others are mislead by radical writings. Sorry to be blunt, but you ran out of the excuse of being new that only works the first time.

    Regard, the rest of your comment, you claimed miracles of Islam based on things that were unveiled by the religion before humanity knew about it. I challenged those claims. You have not provided any evidence of any miracles. I can summarize the rest of your Very Long comment in one sentence “Islam is right because it Says it is right and I believe in it”.

    Then you come up with miracles like the following:

    “do you know other book made , under its effect, huge civelization for more than 500 years ?
    do you know other book made , under its effect, the strongest in its time empire for more than 700 years ?”

    Hmmm, do you think Muslims are the only people that had empires. How does something that was repeated by others become a miracle?

    Another miracle of yours is this:

    “{how can you disbelieve in Allāh when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned.}”

    Have you seen anyone being brought to life from being lifeless. Show me a video, independent tests, etc. to verify this miracle 🙂

    Samar, I think what you term as evidence of miracles is something that goes like this “I believe in it or my book says it, thus it exists and it is a miracle”. I think this type of logic is not even worthy of debate.

  47. Samar, the Quran describes no ”scientific” knowledge but what was available to all at the time it was composed. What is does contain is all the things the people from 1400 years ago did not understand or got wrong.

    So which specific scientific wisdom are you referring to?

  48. @Coolred. I don’t have a problem believing it. Since my assumptions are based on Allah being just- Allah will judge what was reasonable for a person to have believed based on many factors. Something no human would be capable of. I can see lots of reasons why someone might be an atheist in the way the world is set up and in the way Allah has chosen to communicate, and in the way believers often behave. If I can see it surely he can.

  49. ‘If I can see it surely he can’

    Sandy, your Holy Book is pretty darn clear on the fate of the disbelievers. I think the fact that you believe that you see more clearly than ‘God’ could also be cause for you to be joining our hot party in the afterlife. 😉

  50. @Lynn, I have a different understanding of my Holy Book than you do- and that’s fine. But I never claimed to see more clearly than God- so please check your “facts” more carefully.

  51. @Sandy ‘I have a different understanding of my Holy Book than you do’
    Clearly! LOL and a different understanding than the majority of your coreligionists if you read it and still think that ‘he’ accepts unbelievers. Sure, there is no compulsion in religion but that does not change the fate of those that are not compelled to agree to submit to the will of Allah, does it?

    ‘If I can see it surely he can’ – So, that means that if he can’t (as evidenced by his clear stance on the fate of the disbelievers) and you can then that means that you are claiming to see more clearly. No?

  52. Heavenly Lasik!!!!

  53. Abdul. You are typical Muslim. You want, you believe, that Islam is what you want it to be. Not so. Islam is what Muslims have done and do, and, of course, what the Quran and hadith say.

    You always take the stories you like about Mohammad, the nice ones, and use them – yet ignore the ones that talk about his unprovoked wars on his neighbors, the intolerance, cruelty, enslavement of men women and children, rape of captives, looting, and so on? Why. I wonder why Muslims talk about early incidents of patience and goodwill but ignore later stories about permitting a nursing mother or pregnant woman being killed? These are all together in the same books with the stories you use. I mean, you would think that a story about Mohammad condoning the act of splitting open the belly of a pregnant woman for criticizing him would mean something, even to Muslims.

    Then there are statements about how supposedly Muslims lived peacefully with others, yet you ignore the subordinate status forced upon non-Muslims, or even the expulsion of Jews and Christians from the ancestral homes by Mohammad. If you want a good idea of how Muslims treated Jews, read Maimonide’s (the greatest Jew of Islam’s golden era and personal physician to Saladin) letter to the Jews of Yemen (quote: “No race has done greater harm to our people then this race – Muslims”). To me it is pointless to quote verses about how Muslims should respect treaties or other religions when there are also verses like 8:39 and 9:29 and the hadith are full of stories about your prophets attacks on his neighbors, often by surprise (quote: “Whenever the Prophet went out with us to fight in Allah’s cause against any nation, he never allowed us to attack till morning and he would wait and see: if he heard Adhan he would postpone the attack and if he did not hear Adhan he would attack them” – and then it goes on to describe the attack on Khaibar). That is Bukhari, volume 1, Book 11, verse 584 if you want a reference.

    So Muslims are ignorant of their own scriptures or they are deceptive? Which is it?

    Today the situation is even worse. Throughout the Muslim world intolerance and discrimination is rampant. What do Muslims do? Nothing. They don’t care. Almost no Jews are left and even the Christians are quickly being forced out. Do Muslims care? Some do, but it doesn’t matter. Muslims have no ability to reflect on their failings. As I have said before, Muslims demand morality and fairness from others, not themselves. They cannot be trusted. Of course, I don’t know All Muslims in the world, but I think a person has a logical right to look at Islamic countries and judge them by what the people do in them.

    Oh yes, as to the Islamic calendar – yes, it was changed. The pre-Islamic Arabian calendar used added (intercalary) days and months to keep it aligned with the solar calendar (just like the world does today). In the Quran this was forbidden and so Muslims have a lunar calendar that is messy, to say the least. I could write a book about the problems with this inaccurate, obtuse system. As a true calendar it is useless, but I guess it works for pilgrimages and war.

    As to 9:111 the verse is damning. The fact is that it is broad and clear, with no limitations, restriction and conditions. It doesn’t talk about Makkah either. So you are saying that Allah was not clear and then you explain it by making a reference to the Muslim version of events that is also not true. The Meccans did not wage war upon Mohammad. Mohammad, after he left Mecca, joined his people’s rivals – the Medinans – and then started a long 10-year aggressive war against his neighbors and former town. According to all Islamic histories, Mohammad led 25+ raids personally, sent out more than 3 dozen additional ones, and waged about a dozen battles, of which only two were defensive (one of course was the battle of the trench, which was because the Meccans got tired of attacks on their caravans). Mohammad was determined, ruthless and brilliant as a military leader. He burned down orchards and fields, something that scandalized his men but conveniently Mohammad came up with permission from Allah herself for breaking this ancient taboo (Quran 59:4). Another one of those verses that Muslims who write about how ‘Islam respects nature’ seem to forget, I cannot imagine why.

    Samar. Please don’t pretend that jihad means anything except ‘holy war’. I suggest that that you look at tens of thousands of Islamic websites or perhaps read the hadith. Except when explaining Islam to stupid, gullible infidels, it always means fighting non-Muslims to spread Islam.

    The fact is that no Muslim will take responsibility for the evil that Muslims do or have done. No Muslim will ever question anything in the Quran. No Muslim will condemn Mohammad’s evil doings. Do you know what that means? Muslims will not change and Islam will continue to bring pain and suffering to humanity. It is that simple.

  54. If some1 wants to understand something happend 1400 yeas back, he needs proper analysis and need to read from renowned historians, need to read such a book which gives deeper details without missing and jumping certain important part of history. But, not som1’s selective speech without basis.

    Here is a book abt the life of Muhammad SAW in chronological order of all incidents in his life. It doesnt miss any incident in his life and his personal lives:

    http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/prophet/sealed_nectar.pdf

    Hope people read it and then comment.

  55. @Lynn, No. That is not correct. As I said- I understand these things differently than you do. But if it pleases you to think I”m wrong- that’s fine. Perhaps one day we’ll both find out.

  56. Oh but we will! When are dead! Can’t wait to find out what will happen!
    Oh well, I can wait a few years more I suppose…
    But I’ve always seen it as the fun part of dying; you will finally find out what happens after death!

  57. @Lynn,

    Our friend Abdul will tell what to expect and that is only phase 1…..

    The moral of the story “Be kind to your camel”

  58. So… beating camels is wrong but beating wives is ok?

    Who is your lord? The FSM!
    What is your religion? Pastafarianism
    Who is portrayed here on the plate with the meatballs? The FSM

    Ok, you can go to the heaven of your choice. In my case the eternal horse meadows.

    Poor bloke, he is really scared to death. His voice is shaking. What did they do to him? I feel so sorry for him, he is so brainwashed, they made him into a driveling idiot and he is already living in hell 😦

    All these silly details make it less and less believable to me. It really seems very primitive terrorism to get you to conform.

  59. MoQ, thanks for sharing that video. I’ve been interested in the grave life according to Muslims so this was helpful. I guess this is why Osama bin Laden’s burial at sea was not permissible for some of them. How could snakes bites make OBL go further and further into the earth when he’s in water?

    I had to listen to it twice, but do the angels actually have a photo of Muhammad? the one we are not allowed to depict in photos and art because it is forbidden nowadays? I found that idea interesting.

    I found myself laughing at this guy talking about how bad a hammer felt to the face. I have been accidentally hit by children’s elbows and such and can imagine the hammer-in-face punishment indeed would be painful.

    He said the one story that happened in Saudi Arabia was true so I was amazed at the guy whose feet and legs melted because he kicked a camel who had died of scorpion poisoning. Wow!

    Now I’m curious about the good grave life of those who can answer all three questions with something besides “I don’t know.”

  60. The FSM????

    Hammer Time…..

  61. @Aafke- if there is nothing- we’ll never find out.
    @Susanne- there ARE sea snakes!

  62. @susanne430,

    I also thought the video was funny. However, it is also sad to see how they scare these people from the time they are children. They grow into young men, like the one in the video, who cannot think rationally. And when young men cannot think rationally, they can be manipulated into doing anything their puppet masters want them to do.

    Very Sad!!!

    The Angel showing a photo is probably a modern invention by some cleric who wanted to add an extra spice to the scare tactic. This poor kid just bought that line.

    Note however, the torture of the grave is not an invention. It is documented in many Hadiths. And it includes hammers/torture devices, snakes, nasty angels, etc.

  63. Sandy, what do YOU believe about the torture in the grave? Do you agree with this young man in the video?

  64. Sandy, true, but my problem was more with the snake bites causing someone to go further into the earth as the young man described. Maybe I have a wrong visual of this punishment which is contributing to my confusion. I guess the sea snakes can cause OBL to go further into the water instead.

    MoQ, yes, I should have stated that I was also sad to hear this. I think I laughed initially because it was almost like he was being a jokester with the way he was describing things complete with appropriate expressions. I laughed because I thought he was joking. But when I realized he was probably serious, I found it sad that he was so scared.

  65. I am sure the deity of torture will have invented something to torture everybody, even those who were dumped in the sea.

  66. The tortures of hell illustrated:

  67. The first punishment starts in the grave while the grievers are walking away from the funeral. Apparently animals can hear the screams of the tortured in the grave but humans cannot. Depending on whether you lived a good life or not (good being relative) your grave is either roomy and comfortable (comfort while dead is important) or so small as to be crushing every bone in your body due to your sinful life. Also, the angels either take your soul painlessly if you were good…or in the most painful tortorous ways if you were sinful. etc etc etc

    I have always felt, when reading about what angels do to the dead, that they sounded like a bunch of hoodlums….the breaking of the kneecaps sort because you got out of line. Totally destroyed my image of the concept of “angel” when I read about the torture they administer on behalf of god.

  68. @Aafke – – Since you beleiev in pastafarians, you’ll probably be force fed enormous quantities of sphagetti as your punishment ( smile)

  69. @Radha,

    According to the Gospel of the FSM, Pastafarians Heaven and Hell are at Disneyland.

    The good ones will be sent by the FSM to the “Pirates of the Caribbean” ride, where they can drink lots of rum and glide on the waters peacefully while they watch or join their fellow pirates in the most awesome party…

    The bad ones end up at the “It’s a Small World” ride, where they hear that annoying ear worm song for eternity.

  70. @Coolred – ‘I have always felt, when reading about what angels do to the dead, that they sounded like a bunch of hoodlums….’

    And yet you still believed that Islam was perfect as your Holy Book told you so?

  71. Hi everyone ..
    Back to the serious topic..
    lynn..
    why could any one reject obvious truth ?
    “they didn’t ‘believe’ that it was the truth”
    why they didn’t believe ?
    couldn’t it be some times because that truth threat his selfish desires, his previous stable thoughts and comfortable beliefs ,which allow him to do what ever he wants to do without any serious responsibility for his actions, such as if there is some one who will pay the cost instead of him, or if there is no other justice life after death ?
    couldn’t it be because he has personal interests more than finding the real truth ?
    couldn’t it be because he is afraid from that truth ?
    couldn’t it be because he is afraid from Facing his self and Questioning his believes ?
    couldn’t it be because he is sad that truth didn’t come to him from his (own) mental intelligent, or his (own) culture, and coming from , what he consider as, ignorant nation, or lower culture ?

    “… Perhaps someone came along and told them the ‘Real Truth’?”
    Oh .. yes .. you are so right !
    but >>

    who should be this one ?
    who should decide what the (Real Truth) is?
    are any human qualified enough for this huge and dangerous decision ?
    is that truth teacher human like me and u, or he should be the finder of the truth, universe and people ?
    so , how should I find him ?
    I suppose, IF any one has any interest of Real truth, he should do his home work :
    (search and read seriously : in the universe, people, myself, respected knowledge resources, then .. compare) for the sake of (only) the truth, trying to find answers to the most valuable questions , such as :
    who created the truth and this world ?
    how all what we see , hear , feel and think, started ?

    what is more logical with this sophisticated and intelligent harmony in universe :
    is it the chance !?

    Then , should I worship the concept of chance , that would lead to live without roles, without looking for any reason or Real truth, without planning for my life, because that wise chance didn’t give (me) any message leads to the roles, didn’t determine the Real Truth, and would plan better for poor me , like what it did before for the huge sophisticated universe from the beginning, and there is no guarantee with chance, why should I make any efforts ?!
    Let the chance do everything for us, then do whatever you want to do, and don’t bother yourself about questions of any Real truth, there is no specific answer for them, it is impossible questions.

    Oh.. What a comfortable believe !!

    But >>
    Isn’t it leads to No responsibility of our lives and actions , and to (random) roles paced on limited human perspective, isn’t it ?!

    Is this just ?
    Or..
    Just questions shouldn’t be included in the Materialistic CreaterChance concept and the sacrificing God religions ?

    I don’t try to gain any power or control on you or anyone else,
    I just want to clear , remind myself, and to help whoever wants to discuss this issue :
    what is the Real truth Really mean ?
    Then we can continue to discuss : is the Quran Real divine massage, presents the Real truth ?
    What are the Evedents of that claim ?
    Then we can continue, on better logical and scientific ground, to the beginning topic here:
    What are the origins of Islam ?

    I may come again later for the other points, if there is enough time , patient, and consider for that : ) .. Which are due to my humane incomplete features and abilities, not how much I know of truth, or whether it is real truth or not .

    And this is an entrance for one of the reasons which explains the contradiction you Lynn refer to about those who have strong believe in a God but (some times) they disobey Him . It is about the human weakness and limited abilities . which are not easy for proud human to admit, so he may escape from serious discussion in big issues to make it smaller than what it is, starting to manipulate, and tow of the psychological mechanisms towards the denied truth are to spread lies and make it silly jokes, just to translate the attention from (what Real truth is) to be a topic only for laugh , which is maybe more entertaining and requires less efforts to do .

    isn’t it common human tricky behavior ?

    In this silly points we should review the worth of that conversation ; )

  72. @Samar – How would I know why a person chooses not to believe? I’m sure that there are as many different reasons for that as there are for why people DO believe. No? But, I can tell you this, NONE of the reasons you listed can be applied to why I do not believe. I do not believe because I have not been convinced by ANY religion.

    ‘Isn’t it leads to No responsibility of our lives and actions…’

    No, not necessarily. We have ample proof of non God fearing people being greater people than even some of the most devout religious people.

    ‘I don’t try to gain any power or control on you or anyone else’

    And I never claimed that you do. But I DO believe that that was the full intent behind the creation of religions.

    The fact that a book calls itself ‘The Real Truth’ does not make it so. Yes, I know all about the miracle of the Quran etc, but sorry. I don’t see them and no, it’s not just my stubbornness to continue to live a life of sinful pleasure seeking 🙂 Perhaps your stubborn refusal to accept that the religion that you hold so precious and dear is also responsible for the majority of the ugliness in this world is simply because you are afraid to think for yourself? (that’s just ONE of the potential reasons why people resort to religion to guide them on how to live)

  73. @samar arifi,

    Can you write something without going on for pages and pages? What is even worse is you write these long messages that once evaluated amount to nothing.

    You have an ego that makes you imagine that you are talking to children. You ask basic questions about why people do not believe in your version of the truth, then go on with accusations about the character of those none believers. In all of that you never ask the Most pertinent question “Do I have sufficient reason to believe and can I explain these reasons?, Or may be just may be these none believers may have contemplated all of the dogma of your religion and honestly felt it is just superstitions from a dark age.

    “I may come again later for the other points, if there is enough time , patient, and consider for that : )”

    Get a handle of your ego. Let me explain to you what your comments sound like. It is just dribble by a person with an under developed intellect. Sorry, to be blunt here, but you really think too much of yourself and someone has to let you know. Call it my good deed of the day and hopefully you learn and not repeat these egotistic mistakes in the future.

  74. Lynn…ignorance is bliss…knowledge is power. You keep harping on about how I once believed it to be true ignoring the fact that once I became aware I no longer believe in it. What is the point of self awareness and improving oneself through intellectual thought and reasoning if others insist on reminding you of your ignorant past??? counter productive dont you think?

  75. Samir..you are claiming Islam is true because Islam says it is true. That is a circular argument that proves nothing.

  76. I wonder if Samir watches the news. Of course, thanks to Samir, we all now know that jihad is not about attacking and killing the enemies of Islam. Whewww.

    I don’t know how many times I have said it here on AmBedu, but Muslim immigration is going to cause chaos and destruction. I believe I used the words “blood in the streets”. I believe I made reference above to the words in the Quran (9:111) that Muslims, according to Allah herself, are put on earth to “kill and be killed”. It will get worse.

    So, instead of dealing with issues of life and death, and peace and tolerance, our Muslim friends here post links that read like their were written by North Korean propagandists or amuse us with discussions about torture of the dead.

    Tell me, Samir, when is this going to stop? When are Muslims going to face the reality of the hate and violence they do?

  77. Back to fun. Fun is much better than deities of death and angels of torture. That is just plain evil. Please let us get back to having fun.
    When I am AWOL from work I want to have fun.

    The REAL Truth is that the flying Spaghetti Monster does not torture anybody. If you have been really bad you will get stale beer and old ugly strippers after death. That’s all.

    Lets talk about something else:
    With all these imaginary disgusting torture fantasies prevalent you’d think that they would make the best and most revolting horror movies in the Middle East. So why don’t they?

  78. ‘What is the point of self awareness and improving oneself through intellectual thought and reasoning if others insist on reminding you of your ignorant past???’

    Cool down Red! I was asking because you were a believer once and now you are not so you have better knowledge than I do as I was never a believer. I think we could learn a lot by you sharing things like that. I did not intend it to be some kind of a jab at your prior ‘ignorance’. Perhaps a good therapist could help you get that chip off of your shoulder?

  79. “If you have been really bad you will get stale beer and old ugly strippers after death. That’s all.”

    They have beer at the “It’s a small world” ride?

    I always thought, I may be able to get through that ride without going mad, only if I was drunk out of my mind….

  80. Moq, The FSM would never be so evil as to condemn a soul to the ”It’s a small world ride”!!!

    Well, maybe people like Hitler and Stalin, especially because Hitler was a catholic and Stalin studied for priest
    Always suspicious…

  81. Lynn…religion put that chip on my shoulder….discarding religion got rid of the chip…so to speak.

    Your choice of words does not always reflect what you wished to convey. Not making yourself clear does not equate with me having a chip of any kind. 🙂

  82. Everybody will have chips in the afterlife and nobody is fat!

  83. ‘discarding religion got rid of the chip…so to speak’

    I don’t know about that, you might want to take a closer look. There still seems to be a big chunk left there. Why else would you automatically have negative assumptions about people’s intentions rather than ask for clarification? And what’s with the ‘you keep harping on…’ business? WTH? Also, do you really think that you have any chance at self awareness or improving ANYthing if you don’t constantly remember the ‘mistakes’ of your past and learn how and why, exactly, they happened so as to ensure that you don’t find yourself in the same place again? I truly believe you would be less defensive if you could do that.

    Do you not think that perhaps, out there, there is someone else that feels the same way about something that you may have felt when you were a Muslim yet didn’t recognize at the time but now understand and perhaps they can learn from you? THAT is why I ask.

  84. As much conflict that I’ve seen between Coolred and Lynn, somehow I think they’d be good friends in real life. Don’t ask me why, just a feeling.

  85. @Kristine – LOL! I think one of us would have to toughen up. My sensitive feet don’t enjoy walking on eggshells. LOL

  86. Lynn…Im very self aware and have improved myself beyond many of my early expectations I had for myself. Im quite happy with the change I have experienced and expect more in the future….and I never said I shouldnt remember my past mistakes (as if I could)…I just said others shouldnt insist on reminding you of them time and again…and I dont have a chip of any kind…if you insist on reading that in my comments then that is all on you.

    Your eggshell comment is funny because I picture your “sensitive” feet more like the proverbial bull in a china shop. 🙂

    I might also add, dear Lynn, that Im am quite tough…when you go through the things I have gone through in my life…you either curl up and die (emotionally, spiritiually, mentally) or you toughen up and get through it. Im still here…

  87. *as if I could “forget” *damn* 😉

  88. I could imagine Lynn and Coolred getting along too, sitting on a couch watching a movie, eating chips….

  89. Here is another sign that Islam has its “origin roots”, especially in Judaism. This video shows stark similarities between jewish “amida” and muslim “salat” prayer rituals.

  90. But that’s only to be expected, all religions are based on earlier religions and take bits and pieces from those earlier religions. And the religions which will follow up on Christianity and Islam will take bits of the current religions and make up the future new religions.
    That’s how it goes.

  91. So it is ‘toughness’ that makes you assume the worst of people’s comments and attack based on that?

    You may have come a long way but I believe, based on your ultra sensitivities, you still have a long way to go. Perhaps you need to forgive yourself so that you won’t be so sensitive and can actually use your experiences to help others rather than alienate them?

  92. …so says psychologist Lynn. 😉

  93. You may call me DR. Lynn. I’m like Dr. Phil but with less patience for bull. 😉

  94. being “like” Dr Phil is not necessarily a step up…as a friend recently told me 😉

  95. Ok kids, cut it out.
    Or I will put you in the Harmony Hut, where you will be tortured until you get along.

  96. I do so love Wednesday Addams…she didnt play nice and saw no reason to pretend there was a need too.

  97. SO, can we get back to my question for the sake of hopefully understanding?

    ‘I have always felt, when reading about what angels do to the dead, that they sounded like a bunch of hoodlums….’

    Do you remember how you reconciled that feeling with being a devout believer?

  98. @Lynn,

    It took me a long time to get used to your Queen of everything title.

    Now I have to start all over again with the Dr. thing 🙂

  99. Dr. Lynn, Queen of All Things is my full title thankyouverymuch.

  100. *giggling at Dr. Lynn* 😀 😀

  101. Lynn…as I have mentioned…I believed in Islam (without delving too deep into it because I had no literature in the beginning except the quran itself…basically superficial understanding)…right up until I started reading more and more. While reading about Angels and the day of judgement I came to the conclusion that they sounded like a bunch of thugs. By this time I was well on my way to discarding Islam..and then religion all together so it wasnt something I had to work my head around (make concessions for in order to feel comfortable with the idea of thug like angels). I was merely making the comment that they sounded like hoodlums…I never mentioned at what point in my belief I felt this. Clear enough?

  102. @Coolred – Thank you for answering my question. I’m sorry for assuming you were a solid believer when you read it. Remember, my first question was ‘And yet you still believed that Islam was perfect as your Holy Book told you so?’

    Couldn’t you have saved all the nastiness and attitude by just replying as you did here? 🙂 How about, from now on, when you read something that sounds to you like some kind of attack or something just take a breath and then ask for clarification then, if they confirm that your initial reaction was correct then go ahead and blast away with everything you’ve got. Deal?

  103. Lynn…”nastiness”? attitude I got it…nastiness? not so much. Your opinion on that is yours…I will leave you too it.

  104. Sorry Coolred, I guess I just take accusations of ‘harping on’ as coming with a tone of nastiness. My bad.

  105. You two are so going in the Harmony Hut.

    Watch this:

  106. LOL Aafke

  107. Dang but that ice and snow look SO refreshing right about now! LOL

  108. BRIEF HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD(pbuh):
    ———————————————————————-

    I am not here to argue with any1 but wanted to allocate little time of mine on the life of Muhammad to remove misunderstanding.

    Muhammad SAW was a man of truth, who never lied, who was respected by all in his 40 years of life, before he became Prophet.
    Also one must consider the fact that even before his Prophethood Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) was known amongst his people as “Al-Amin”, the trustworthy and the truthful. No one ever recorded a lie against him.

    Muhammad didnt do retaliation but defended at last from ONLY oppressors without harming any innocents. His own Quraish tribe oppressors didnt attacked him initially but tried to convince him, threaten him. He was offered anything he likes but to stop spreading his message from God. He denied offers from his own Quraish family. Quraish family was afraid of losing their control of Makkah when Muhammad stood firm against their oppressions like – slavery and beating slaves, animalism, burying female babies, open prostitution, oppression by rich and powerful, selling and buying idols and spreading wrong idolatry message to rule the kingdom.

    He and his followers suffered, suffered, his oppressors attacked attacked attacked and even killed many of his followers who followed Islam secretly.

    Unable to bear the suffering, Muhammad PBUH sent some of his followers to Ethiopia, which was ruled by a Christian king. Quraish family had good relation with the Ethiopia King. They followed them there and asked the Christian king to hand over the Muhammad’s followers. But Christian king saved them from Quraish oppressor when he was explained that Islam is the continuation of teachings from Adam PBUH to Jesus PBUH and Muhammad was standing for justice and against inequality and oppression in society.

    At that time Medina was in chaos due to tribal clash. Muhammad was invited to negotiate and bring peace as he was already famous for being honest, truthful and in turn they accepted to accept Islam. Muhammad n his followers accepted invitation and did hijrah from Makkah to Medina to avoid blood bath without attacking any1, Quraish didnt want them to leave Makkah to save their lives and so followed them on the way. Muhammad’s followers hid in the desert on their way to Medina and so saved their lives.

    Finally, they reached Medina. So people of Medina ( mainly who were not christians, jews at that time) accepted islam without single drop of blood and first Mosque Al-Nabawi was built in history. A first human law and society was created in Medina – which was called “ummah” which includes Jews and Chrisitans of the time with equal rights (contrary to Muslims of today redefine Ummah).

    Jews started breaking convenant and betrayed People of Madinah and start spying Quraish family in Makkah at the back. All the property of his followers in Makkah was looted, their relatives and family members who still left in Makkah were killed by his own Quraish oppressors. At this time many companions of Muhammad complained Muhammad to defend themselves and protect their properties. New verses of Quran was revealed and permitted them to defend themselves and fight back ONLY with those who attack without harming any innocent. These verses are misused by many hate mongers without context. After this, First bloody scene was seen in the war of Badar – a completely self defense. This is called Jihad (there is other form of Jihad, this is one of them). If u read with open heart, now u will get some idea on how defense was only option and last resort. THis is called Jihad and is to protect and defend as last option but not to kill or harm innocents.

    Kindly note that Muhammad tried to abolish slavery but deep rooted tribal animalistic tradition failed him to do so. Many were new reverts to Islam and they were reluctant to leave their tradition completely. Kindly note that First person who called “Adhan” (prayer call in mosque) was done by Bilal. He was none but a slave of one of the Quraish who was bought back by Muhammad’s companion Abu Bakar and freed him when they tried to kill him. He was given such a great respect and asked him to call Adhan.

    People started realising message, truth, peace of Muahmmad and rejecting Quraish’s oppressions and more and more followed Muhammad’s message. Finally there was convenant between Quraish and Muhammad’s followers for peace. Muhammad was powerful enough. Muhammad and followers went back to Makkah. Already weak Quraish were afraid that Muhammad will attack them but he didnt attack them at all and declared that earlier Quraish’s oppressors are safe and their properties are also safe. Seeing the greatness of Muahmmad inspite of their oppressions on him and his followers, Quraish groups realised their sin and accepted Islam. One Quraish leader said – Muhammad has greatest weapon – a weapon to win heart of people.

    Islam doesnt allow forceful conversion but from heart. Biggest example is – Abu Talib, uncle of Muhammad, who brought up him since childhood never converted to Islam.
    Couldn’t Muhammad force his own Uncle?

    Imagine, how will we react when our homes are looted, we have to go 250 miles (from Mecca to Medina) just to avoid blood bath and save our lives by leaving our sweet homes and country, running to Ethiopia to save lives, still following us and attacking us? But, who cares all these facts?

    Sadly, ignorance, hate, lies, hateful propaganda rules this world and makes this world dirty and bloody.

    One can read full history of Muhammad (PBUH), which overs every single incident in his life in chronological order:

    http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/prophet/sealed_nectar.pdf

    But, any knowledge is useless when hate is filled in mind and heart.

  109. ONE HEART TOUCHING INCIDENT OF MUHAMMAD:
    ——————————————————————

    I missed to mention one heart touching incident of Muhammad PBUH. Prophet Muhammad when he go to pray to a mosque an old Jewish woman used to throw dirt at him when he passes her house. The great Prophet walked without a word of protest and cleaned himself on reaching the mosque and prayed. Everyday this went on and one day when Prophet passed he was not attacked with dirt by the old lady. He went to the prayer and on returning he entered the house of the lady to check what happened. He found she was sick and lying in bed and Prophet cared her and she went into tears in repentance. That woman later became a follower of Islam learning the real values from the Prophet.

    Here is another Hadith which shows the greatness of Muhammad:

    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 54:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik:
    “A bedouin urinated in the mosque and the people ran to (beat) him. Allah’s Apostle said, “Do not interrupt his urination (i.e. let him finish).” Then the Prophet asked for a tumbler of water and poured the water over the place of urine.”

    Will any gr8 leader on earth do similarly?..Imagine

    I still believe that the present day development of terrorism and fundamentalism as some psychotic elements that are anti human and anti God attained the seat of neo preachers who misguide the people from taking the right path.

  110. I got back yesterday and posted this, to the wrong thread. camping is not so much fun anymore. I am too old to sleep on hard earth, but at least I was on top of it.

    I want to apologize here for my comment above indicating it was probably Muslims who were responsible for the Norway terror. I waited until some jihadi group claimed responsibility to stick foot in mouth, but I was wrong. Wasn’t the first time nor will it be the last. Just shows that not all the bad guys are Muslims. Sorry!

    Yet for the life of me I can’t figure the motivation and mentality of the vile person who killed so many, many of whom were kids. I guess I don’t want to know. I guess evil is evil, however you package it.

    Azad, as I said in the other posting, I wish you would stop that silly narrative about your prophet. Since you proclaim yourself an expert, how can you ignore the vile things your prophet did? Why must you distort, omit and change the facts? Why cant you be honest about simple facts easily found in the hadith and early histories (Tabari, Hisham, Kathir, etc…)? Once again, stop the silly comments about how pure, noble, tolerant and honest your dear prophet was or I will start linking to the original texts that tell the real story. Do you understand? You know I can do it.

  111. @Jay,

    Sorry to say this but I believe u are the one who always distort things and try to prove ur argument. U are the one who never look into ur own relgion and point fingers to others always. We Muslims at least dont point fingers to ur relgion, Bible and prophet/God/Son of God/Father. Did I?? Why dnt u bring all the violence, terrbile things in Bible rather than trying to prove other relgion is wrong?

    U are a plain reader who never see things in context. Can u please stop ur long and selective tirade. Every thing should be seen with context, time, situation, condition but not plain verses. But, u live in a world without context.

    Can u also stop and we all see the collective findings of well learned people, who have done proper analysis, can we hear those non-Muslims who have done deep research?

    Or u will be always right? U will be more learned than any1?

    Here is the balance documentary from BBC world about Muhammad (PBUH). It also shows the research of renowned NON-MUSLIM historians:

    http://www.livestream.com/amcnational/video?clipId=flv_ec8cd771-06a1-4705-aeff-2f1ba96e195e&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

    PS: It has 3 episodes.

    R u still going to reject this BBC documentary and all these researchers/historian too to prove others are evil?

    If u reject this, Kindly let me know ur concrete supportive reason why u reject this BBC documentary and these research scholars.

  112. Azad, the thing is this. You, for some ungodly reason, think that it is important for non-Muslim to see how great Mohammed was. Why is that so important to you? We all KNOW that Mohammed (if he ever even existed) did great things and showed extreme patience and love and blah blah blah. Fine, that’s great. BUT no matter how many wonderful things he has done, there are still too many UGLY things and they are written down for all of his followers to emulate along with the good.

    Look at that first paragraph that you wrote to Jay. I see you are still trying the deflect tactic but you need to remember that you aren’t on some Christian site so you really need to stop with all your assumptions and accusations. It just makes you look kinda nutty and childish. Especially when you repeat the same thing over and over again even after being corrected several times. I think you would get farther in discussions if you would stop throwing accusations all the time. You are constantly going on about closed, hate filled minds. Take it from Dr. Lynn, Queen of All Things, you might want to give your own a little tune up and maybe try to crack yours open just a little bit.

  113. Azad, the thing is this. You, for some ungodly reason, think that it is important for non-Muslim to see how great Mohammed was. Why is that so important to you?
    —————————————————————

    @Lynn,

    Why is it so important for u to spit venom and why so difficult to even see any balance things from even BBC or any other unbiased non Muslim researchers?

    U are the one who consider to discuss Islam/Muslim/Muhammad so much we dont consider it so important to discuss about others and dont do.

  114. ‘Why is it so important for u to spit venom and why so difficult to even see any balance things from even BBC or any other unbiased non Muslim researchers?’

    It’s not but it is your closed, hate filled mind that distorts things and makes you see that in people even when it is not there.

  115. Azad: “Here is the balance documentary from BBC world about Muhammad (PBUH). It also shows the research of renowned NON-MUSLIM historians”.

    Honestly, I did not learn anything NEW from these first two episodes. It is just a rehash/recycle of what is already out there about Mohammed. How can it be balanced when all it does is present a very one-sided positive picture of Mohammed? It would have been more informative and educational if it presented the “other” gory side of Mohammed along with the “positive” one.

    As far as so-called renowned “non-muslim historians” go, there are always renowned non-muslim useful idiots who will do anything for money, especially if it is banked by saudi arabia. For example, Karen Armstrong, Gary Miller, Maurice Bucaille and the list goes on :)-

  116. Actually, I think that there are many non-muslim researchers who are a lot less biased than the Muslim researchers.
    I would always give the word of somebody who has no stake in what he/she researches a bit more serious than the word of somebody who has.
    And lets not forget, unbiased research is not possible in the Muslim world, if you say something or discover something, or make an deduction which detracts from accepted doctrine your head will roll. That’s why nothing new comes out of Muslim countries. Real innovative Muslims can only prosper outside of Muslim countries. And even there they could be assassinated at a pitch. After all Muslims even try to assassinate people who are not Muslims but have ”offended” muslim feelings in some way.

  117. It’s not but it is your closed, hate filled mind that distorts things and makes you see that in people even when it is not there.
    ————————————————————–

    @Lynn,

    Ur mind is open for dirt and gutter leeches only. A fully frustrated soul. And u blame me and say that hate filled mind?

    If I open my mouth, u will not be able to sleep. So, please keep personal attack aside. As I said earlier, as Muslim is considered lier, hater of truth, I present things with evidence and proof. If I give links from BBC then how come distortion comes? But, u prefer to attack personally. Becoz of abusive, hate monger like u, a peace loving Muslim turn to hard one. If u cant leave abuses, ignore my post please.

  118. As far as so-called renowned “non-muslim historians” go, there are always renowned non-muslim useful idiots who will do anything for money, especially if it is banked by saudi arabia. For example, Karen Armstrong, Gary Miller, Maurice Bucaille and the list goes on :)-
    ———————————————————–

    @Harry,

    A truth speaker who came out after research is bought by money?
    Hehe Saudi owned BBC according to u 🙂
    So, anything good a Muslim speak is typical Muslim rant. And anything good a non-Muslim speaks abt Muslim is for money!!

    U have made condition of discussion and made conclusion too.
    No, point in discussion dear friend!!

  119. Imagine people are not even ready to accept a balance BBC documentary composed from a number of Muslim and non-Muslim historians. They have to such an extent to blame BBC for money.

    Then how can they will hear a common Muslim.

    Bring anything bad abt Islam from a shitty speaker, they will accept without question.

    How can we forget that there are people who live under the roof of – “Living in Denial” and “Unbaility to accept the truth”

    People are showing their true colors!!

  120. @Harry,

    One question, why those some non-Muslims speak bad about Muhammad? Did saudi forgot to give money to them?

  121. And lets not forget, unbiased research is not possible in the Muslim world
    ———————————————————-

    Aafke,

    Dont u think that u are not giving a genealised statment?
    Have a look here.. U may find something:

    “What a Billion Muslims Really Think”

    http://www.livestream.com/amcnational/video?clipId=flv_8db39590-d28e-42f3-abb3-d6f4edda866c&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

  122. Azad, So I am, quote: “a plain reader who never see things in context”. Well, darn it, I guess not. When I read about unprovoked wars against innocents, I see evil, not some silly made-up context. When I see a tribe slaughtered by a conquering general, I see a vile man killing men and boys and enslaving their women, not context. When I see a man that says “no compulsion in religion” and then sends his men to attack a mosque full of women and children because of “:unbelief”, I see evil and hypocrisy, not context. When I read about a pregnant woman having her belly split open because she criticized your dear prophet, and this done with his approval, I see evil, not context.

    Quote: “Muhammad didnt do retaliation but defended at last from ONLY oppressors without harming any innocents”. It would be interesting to see you this fits with the 26+ raids personally led by Mohammad, plus the 4 dozen more sent out, or the 10 of 12 battles fought away from home, at the doors of his enemies (errr, victims). Maybe the ‘context’ is that he didn’t do retaliation because Mohammad was never attacked, so technically his attacks were not retaliation, or maybe one can say that those killed, enslaved and raped were not ‘innocent’ because they rejected his message. I mean, if Muslims are the ‘best of peoples’ (according to the Quran) and non-Muslims are ‘lower than animals’ (quran, again), maybe it was all just good fun for Mohammad and he was just doing the sacred work of Allah, praise be upon her. Is that it? Is that your context?

    You keep your context. Like the proverbial cloak of invisibility, your cloak of “context” protects you from having to face simple facts or deal with the brutal reality of the Islam that has caused so much pain, suffering and death to this world. It was a sad day for civilization when Western countries let Muslims immigrate in mass. Muslims came and brought their values, or lack thereof. Now we all must deal with this and the story will be written in blood, just like the life of your dear prophet.

    Azad, you are a good example of why Islam is the way it is, and why non-Muslims must understand the dangers to our freedoms and life. Islam cannot change because Muslims refuse to be honest about their dogma and history. Spare us the few words about what Muslims do and say in non-Muslim countries, and instead change the minds and attitudes of Muslims in those countries where they dominate. End the repression, discrimination and persecution of non-Muslims, women, jews and gays. Stop the vile sermons in the mosques about non-Muslims. Remove vile materials from textbooks and present both sides of the story. End the apostasy laws.

    Well, I have to go. Would you care to share with us the context of the murder of the pregnant woman, or of Asma bint marwan (ie, a similar case, she was killed while nursing a child for criticizing Azad’s dear trustworthy moral example). Would you care to explain the context of Mohammad’s attitude to these two events?

  123. Aafke: “That’s why nothing new comes out of Muslim countries”.

    That’s so true! That is also the reason why muslims whose population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population … they have produced only 4 nobel prize winners in the last hundred years or so. Out of those 4, two were murdered because they were considered “kafirs” by their fellow muslims.

    Contrast that with jews whose population is approximately 14,000,000,
    or about 0.02% of the world population … they have produced a whopping 129 nobel prize winners in science, medicine, literature, peace, etc.

    THE REASON: The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims. The Jews don’t hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics. The Jews don’t traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

    Perhaps the world’s Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming CIA, Mossad, RAW and the rest of the world for all their problems.

  124. ‘If I open my mouth, u will not be able to sleep. So, please keep personal attack aside’

    I’m sorry, I just don’t understand your language. YOU are the only one I see spouting off any personal attacks against people.

    ‘If I give links from BBC then how come distortion comes?’

    What are you talking about?

  125. Islam that has caused so much pain, suffering and death to this world.
    End the repression, discrimination and persecution of non-Muslims, women, jews and gays.
    —————————————————————————
    @Jay,

    Continue ur tirade and ignore all reliable things.
    I am so surprised why u dnt ask these questions to urself. Cleansing millions of Jews in all over world, Killing millions of black by chrsitian terrorist KKK Klu klux klan. Who killed and raped in Vietnam, Iraq.

    Who blood loves occupied and killed millions of innocents in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Malaysia, Phillipines, Singapore, Algeria, Ghana?
    Who sucked blood of innocents and looted all wealth and properties?
    Who cleanse red Indians and finished their existence?

    Who killed millions in Japan?

    See Jay ur religion kills millions and Muslim extremist kills thousands.
    Christian world cleansed Jews from all over world and made their home in Muslim land in Palestine and killing palestenian innocents, kids, women. And u are blaming that Muslims kill jews? What a shame!

    Still Christian terrorists are not stopping killing and converting by force in North East India..bombing in market, train station, public place.
    What a pain is it!! But I never see u mentioning evils of urs.

    “Stop the vile sermons in the mosques about non-Muslims”

    Eeeeehhh…u went to mosque to pray and listened or some fake hatred info?? Even if it happens in 1 case how can u generalise that? I havent heard in my whole life in Mosque.

    We are told to help people..work for peace, not to malign image of islam by behaving badly, to work for peace and harmony, condemn any kind of violence..We are asked to donate for the needy irrespective of their relgion-

    http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_645824.html

    What u said is hallucination or just one case but not a norm.

    Sorry, I am just replying ur question but not attacking ur belief.
    As I said before people like u are more educated than the BBC’s researchers and so ur statement rules. And no point in discussion. I will explain one and u will turn and turn and say that Islam is pain in this world.

    When will u look back to ur religion and violence done by it?

  126. Dear Lynn,

    If read back u are the one who started attacking me first. I ignored ur painful words but u didnt stop. It made me extremely angry and I was foreced to reply angrily, which in turn make me feel bad. I dnt like to use any harsh word but want to respect all human being on earth. I know I should respect all, should be calm and no excuse at all to reply angrily to some1. But, as a human being I too get angry suddenly.
    Even though I used certain words, I dont mean it in reality. I share ur pain and suffering sincerely.

    Let’s respect each other. I have no hard feelings and u too please. Let’s stop attacking each other at once from now onwards. Cheers 🙂

  127. I’ll ask again, what were the painful words that you are going to ignore?

    And how about that BBC link that was proof of something? Got that or would you rather I just forget that I asked you for proof of your claims?

  128. Oh, nevermind, you are talking about that show about Mohammed show that aired on BBC? Do you really think that the BBC researchers made that show? You understand about televisions stations and how they work, don’t you?

  129. U said, I m from a culture which hides truth, which hides my sin, u BOY intially, then hate filled, closed mind then i replied. Anyway, I dnt mind…we went on like this angrily. Let’s close it plz.

  130. Azad, thank you for reminding me to get back to you about that. Is it not true that Islam tells you to hide your secrets and not confess your sins? THAT is what I was talking about when I said that.

  131. And the hate filled, closed mind were your words, over and over and over again to anyone here that has a negative opinion on something Islam related. That’s where I got them. How many times have you called knowledgeable people here ignorant and blinded by hate? Hmmmm? Check yourself brother!

  132. “ignorant and blinded by hate”

    —————————————————————

    I can never say any1 ignorant. U can show where I said, I will not be ashamed of accepting my mistake and applogise…..or we can close here also if u like…Anyway cheers..and good night. I am going sister.

  133. Yes, you DO say they are ignorant. That is why you are always attempting to educate. Right?

  134. Azad, in simple words let me tell you the difference between you and me, between Muslims and us terrible ‘lower than animals” non MUslims. We can condemn hate and violence anywhere, done by anybody. It doesnt matter if evil is done by crusaders, christians, nazis, kkk, Muslims, hindus, athiests. Evil is evil.

    Now let us talk about your dear prophet. I hope you have noticed the adjective ‘dear’ I often use when referring to the man you love and protect. As I have pointed out and since you havent denied it, you must accept that your dear prophet did many many evil, barbaric things. You say you have written about Mohammad, but evidently you missed about 50% of the content in the very same sources you use. Why? Do you think that it is morally justifiable to take one story you like from a page and then omit the next paragraph because it says things you prefer to ignore?

    I guess evil is fine with you, since you can’t bring yourself to denounce certain vile actions. Murder, torture and rape are ok for you and most Muslims because you think these are not essentially evil, it just depends on who is doing them. If Westerners do bad things, that is really really bad, but if Mohammad does them, it is ‘praise be upon him’ and move along now. Don’t forget that the Quran says that Mohammad is “a noble example to follow for those who want to get to paradise”. Nice! That may explain things, don’t you think?

    Why do I keep saying these things over and over and over? Azad, I know you will not change and you know I will not either. What you and I do and say will make no difference at all. We are wasting our time, both of us.

  135. ‘We are wasting our time, both of us.’

    Make that the 3 of us!

  136. @Azad Re That Norwegian Guy

    If you want to believe that Breivik was a fundamentalist Christian who wanted to kill Muslims in Europe, then don’t read what he actually wrote about himself.

    Comparisons have been made to the Unabomber, but the Columbine killers and numerous others also come to mind. Including Charles Manson. Breivik’s program was just as grandiose as Manson’s, and just as deluded. Both hoped that a series of violent acts would touch off a larger war that would enable them to take over.

    Breivik is as much a political terrorist as Manson, and can no more be considered part of any larger cause, beyond the malformed chemicals in his own brain.

    Debunking 6 Myths About Anders Breivik:

    http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/07/debunking-6-myths-about-anders-breivik.html

  137. Just checking back to see if you responded, Azad.

    You know, I find discussions of this type rather strange. I make serious moral accusations about horrible events in your own writings, and yet certain people respond with “others did it too” type arguments as if that justifies those evil doings.

    The problem is that people like you usually do not deny those terrible things were done by Muslims, including your prophet. You ignore them. If I were a member of a certain religion and somebody said that the central figure of that religion – the messenger, one announced to be the great moral example – had murdered, raped, tortured and enslaved others, I would demand proof. I would want to know where it says he/she did those things. If I found out that, in fact, those accusations were true, I would resign in a heartbeat.

    You should realize that the evil done by followers is not the same as that done by the founder. I can understand Muslims not wanting to be blamed for what other Muslims do. That makes sense. You can condemn them and I can condemn them just as we both can condemn American soldiers that do evil. In fact, anybody that does evil should be condemned, but Muslim wont do this. For example, if Jesus or the Buddha had attacked villages, plundered and enslaved people, that would be evil and subject to moral condemnation. There is no record of this. Yet we have Islam’s own writings that tell us horrible tales about Mohammad and this means nothing. This is double standards; this is proof that Muslims cannot be trusted because nothing is really immoral except not believing in Allah and Mohammad and not keeping silly rituals.

    Muslims care nothing for this logic. What your prophet did or didn’t do means nothing. You have already decided that by definition everything or anything Mohammad did was wonderful. That is why you didn’t respond when I mentioned his actions in the case of the pregnant woman split open or the nursing mother murdered because of him. You didn’t ask for references or links, why? Because it is no big deal because you believe he was perfect. You put your ego ahead of the misery and suffering of others. You don’t want to know.

    Your values are not those of the West. You have “situational ethics”. Murder, hate and discrimination can be bad or not, depending on who is doing those to whom. If it is non-Muslims doing those to Muslims, it is bad, if it is Muslims doing it to non-Muslims, that is ok because non-Muslims did those same things to Muslims. If your prophet did those things, then you don’t want to talk about it because that might cause doubt or demand reflection on moral values. Lord, save us from having to reflect on moral issues, right? Please, god, don’t let us have to apply the same standards to everyone.

    Feel free to explain why killing a pregnant woman or nursing mother is fine and dandy in your opinion. Please provide the proper ‘context’. Remember you are on record here as saying your prophet was ‘perfect’.

    And Islam does not change. This may have something to do with that.

  138. @ Re: Naser Abdo -arrested-near-fort-hood-for-suspicious-activity

    “We have two things that I believe make us American, and that’s freedom of religion and freedom of choice,” he said in an interview last year. He said he had to remain true to Islam.

    Here we go again. Loyalty to “Islam” comes before loyalty/patriotism to USA or any other kafiristan.

    “Abdo refused to deploy to Afghanistan on grounds of his religion and had put in the paperwork to be discharged as a conscientious objector. The Army approved his request, but he was then charged with child pornography and went AWOL, the official said.”

    Double hypocrisy! Conscientious objector because of islamic teachings and then possession of child pornography because of what moral values and teachings???? Hmmmm.

  139. But the article still didn’t call him a Muslim AWOL Soldier.

  140. While it is true that the media did not identify him as a “muslim” in the story, they did mention “islam” as his religion. There was another associated press story earlier today where “AWOL Fort Campbell soldier” admitted plans for massacre at Fort Hood.

    Abdo’s arrest came after the owners of a local gun store – the same store where the 2009 Fort Hood shootings suspect Maj. Nidal Hasan bought a pistol used in the attack – called police, the Army’s alert said. He also had visited an Army surplus store where he paid cash for a uniform bearing Fort Hood unit patches, according to the Army alert.

    Double standards abound in this whole saga. To review: he obtained conscientious objector status against being deployed to Iraq after saying “his Muslim beliefs prevented him from fighting.” But he was willing and able to travel to Texas to attempt to pick up where Nidal Malik Hasan left off and slaughter more soldiers at Fort Hood. A conscientious objector who got out of the Army so he could avoid killing his fellow Muslims, but evidently wanted to kill large numbers of non-Muslims at Fort Hood??

    In an interview on ABC News in August 2010, new Fort Hood jihadi said then he wanted to “put a good positive spin out there that Islam is a good, peaceful religion”. And how better to do that than by murdering a few Infidels? He was only doing his best as a “devout” muslim to emulate his prophet who said “War Is Deceit”. :)-

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/muslim-soldier-hoping-avoid-deployment-faith-conflicts-service/story?id=11514381

  141. Yes, he IS Muslim. The original article never said he was Muslim but did link to the story that they had done with him last year when he was hoping to avoid combat. So, even in this case where it was very likely that his religious belief is the reason for his ‘terror’ attempt it STILL did not speak about him, highlighting his religious label, the way that Azad insists the prejudiced media does.

  142. you usually do not deny those terrible things were done by Muslims
    …………………
    ……………………

    If I were a member of a certain religion and somebody said that the central figure of that religion – the messenger, one announced to be the great moral example – had murdered, raped, tortured and enslaved others, I would demand proof. I would want to know where it says he/she did those things. If I found out that, in fact, those accusations were true, I would resign in a heartbeat.
    …………
    …………

    For example, if Jesus or the Buddha had attacked villages, plundered and enslaved people, that would be evil and subject to moral condemnation. There is no record of this.

    =============================

    Dear Jay,

    I was not running from the topic. As u aware, I do not work full time in this blog.

    It seems u dont know what u dont like to know. Its sad that u give such generalised statement that “Muslims dont condemn wrong things done by Muslm”. U need to find the list of “Fatwas, protest agasint terrorism” from Muslims in all over wrold. Google is in front of u. Please search “Fatwa against terrorism”. Then how u make such judgement?

    U compare West’s wrong deeds with Muhammad(PBUH)’s wrong deeds. U are doing wrong comparison. U can compare east/west or Muahmmad/Jesus or Quran/Bible. How can u compare 21st century with tribal cannibalistic world of the time?

    U gave one incident of killing pregnant women. There is no proof that Muhammad killed her. One hadith was found it was done by one Muslim of the time. But, u are talking like Muhammad himself killed her. And that incident doest explain when and how. U should know that many Muslims have conflict over hadith. Hadith is never followed/taken true without validation and without scholar’s approval and explanation with context, specially when its doubtful or violent Muslims are suggested not to follow that and act on that. Anyway, I agree what u said, I will not change and u will not change.

    Regarding Muslims dont condemn Muhammad, yes u are right. Muslims think that the situation at that time was different and a one line verse do not represent the context and situation without its Tafseer. So, what u see and what I see is different and so I dnt bring TERRIBLE, INHUMAN things told by Bible. But, today I love to bring.

    I am happy to know that u will ask proof if some1 will point terrible things in a relgion. U also gave such a strong statement that there is no record of evil things in ur relgion.

    I respectfully challenge u to do a debate on Bible(From ur previous writings I know that u are a Bible believer). I will leave this blog permanently if I cant show u 10 violent and terrible verses from Bible when u show one from Quran.
    Say any kind of terrible things in Bible
    – rape,
    -murder,
    -calling non-believer hell fuel,
    -incest,
    -mistreatment of women,
    -slavery,
    -telling lie by Jesus,
    I will show all from Bible.

    In some version of Bible,
    -“naked” is mentioned 92 times
    -“hate” is mentioned 80 times.
    -“sword” is metioned more than 200 times.(Islam is cosidered to be spread by sword but original arabic Quran doesnt mention any of the equivalent words of sword like Muhanied, Husam etc.)

    As per Bible man can sell his daughter as a slave, she should not be set free as male slaves (Exodus 21:7)

    God killed 2,476,633 innocents as per Bible.
    But that didn’t include some of God’s most impressive slaughters. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? The Bible doesn’t say, so there’s no way to know for sure. But it’s possible to provide rough estimates in order to get a grand total, as per research –
    Total innocents killed estimates: 25 million.

    U can request Bedu to create a debate topic on Bible or we can discuss in existing debate page or we can continue here.

    Finally, U said “Islami gives pain in this world”, West did mistake by allowing Muslims(such a hate oriented comments 😦 ). Did east do mistake by allowing Chrsitians? what u say abt those millions of Christians fundamentailis(Search NSCN as example) who convert by force with guns by terrorising, bombing, who are inspired from Bible’s teachings:

    (Matthew 10:34-36) – “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

    (35)”For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

    (36)and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.”

    “He lifted up or raised or wielded his spear against eight hundred men, whom he killed at one time”(2 Samuel 23:8) (Chistian preachers are giving different versions of this in diffrent translations, how they corrupt things 🙂 )

    PS: I am not Bible, Jesus, Christian hater but put for the sake of debate.

  143. I had the same thoughts as Harry…it is one thing to be a WWconscientious objector and not want to kill…fair enough and he did the right thing by asking to be relieved from duty and the govt did let him go. He said if he killed Muslims he couldn’t live with himself…again to me a fair statement.

    But at what point did he go from conscientious objector not wanting to kill to someone plotting the murder of his fellow servicemen who were nonmuslims? He moved from pacifist to murderer and for me that is the crucial point. Also, the military does not fight only Muslims…they will fight whomever they need to. WW2 it was christians,Vietnam war it was Buddhists (?),now it is Muslims. The religion is not the deciding factor. Yet, for Muslims even american ones and those who chose not to fight it is all about religion. He would not have been a conscientious objector if they had been going to war against someone other than Muslims…and then people wonderwhy nonmuslims do wonder if Muslims can be both muslim and american…not fair perhaps but it is a natural question in the circumstances of this young man.

  144. Sorry for mistakes…typing from my phone.

  145. But, Azad, Jay is not making these things up, he takes it straight from your holy books, the Quran and the Hadith. So it is a bit weird that you think you can deny the nasty stuff the prophet did.
    Unless you claim the hadith and Quran were not passed properly over the ages and a lot of false stuff slipped in.
    It is one or the other.

  146. Azad, what about those of us that don’t believe in ANY religion?

    BUT, if you want to compare you have to compare accurately. For every act of violence that Mohammed did, show us one that Buddah and Jesus did. You can’t compare acts supposedly committed directly by God to one done by a mere human being like the prophets. Don’t you agree?

  147. AA, regarding the issue of bias, the problem is that Muslims begin with the position that Islam is perfect and argue from there. As witnessed, they extend this concept to their prophet. Of course, the “Islam is perfect” dogma is a dead-end trap that causes no little amount of anxiety, confusion and anger for Muslims. To a Muslim then, any fact or idea that proclaims otherwise must be the result of xxxxxxxx (fill in the blanks: a lie, hate, conspiracy, ignorance, you name it). Whatever a critic says about Islam cannot be true because a Muslim believes that Islam is perfect and, at most, any indication to the contrary is because some Muslims do not follow Islam correctly or non-Muslims don’t understand the context of a dogma.

    Azad, I am glad you are alive. I was worrying about you. Let me if I may share some thoughts that transcend our differences and even the discussion above.

    Society is a mess. I believe it will get worse. The terror in Norway is just another prelude to even bigger troubles to come. I am sure that there are plenty of faults on both sides, and you will certainly agree with this. The so-called doctrines of Multiculturalism and diversity have wedded and the offspring is tribalism and divisiveness. What we are seeing is society tearing itself apart, slowly, and I see no cure. This will not end well.

    Let me share a few words from the comments on Harry’s Place, a very moderate blog (I am banned but I still read it because I find good insight), about the divisiveness that characterizes our world, or at least Muslim-NonMuslim relations:

    http://hurryupharry.org/2011/07/29/how-a-racist-incident-brought-back-my-extremist-past/

    Here goes:

    (Quote) “I believe that religious identity politics have been catastrophic for this country. I believe that the aggressive assertion of theo-identity politics have been catastrophic for Muslims, for the whole of society, and for non Muslim minorities too.”
    And
    “And it is the culture of ever hungry victimhood identity-politics, especially of a religious kind, that sets the eternal mood music of hostility, and can only exist as a grievance seeking culture, that never settles for balance or equilibrium, that is setting the tone for what we are seeing now.” (end of quote).

    The topic of this treat is “Perspective on Islam”. There is a perception among many non-Muslims that Muslims are intolerant and violent and seek to destroy our freedoms and culture. There is a perception amongst Muslims that Non-Muslims are racists, intolerant, dishonest, bigoted and want to destroy Muslims and Islam. I see little middle ground in those two visions. I see no reason to change my opinion on Islam and I am sure that you think you are right. This is bad news for all of us. When blood flows, it will be red no matter who it comes from.

    Azad, what I am saying is that I am sincere in my beliefs, I have never kicked a Muslim, and I think I have facts on my side (or at least more facts). I do not wish you evil, but the future is not mine to decide. History does what it will do and most of us are just passengers on a wild ride. I hope you and yours have as happy of a life as I have had so far, with only a few common expected matters of grief (yet one major one). I have been blessed with peace in my time, a wonderful wife, and with moderate but sufficient material possessions, far more than I deserve (at least with the wife!). I look around and I don’t see this for my children, or yours. Instead, I see division, antagonism and destruction. I could be wrong but I don’t think so. There are many reasons for pessimistic outlook, but one is the identity politics that is mentioned above. Well, I have kind of lost my train of thought in this paragraph so I will end it here. You take care.

    Aafke, Lynn and Oby, did you see how moderate and considerate I am? I bet you didn’t know I could be so darn nice and restrained!

  148. @Jay, you are banned? May I ask why? I checked out the site, and they seemed very open to differences of opinion. Or are you just yanking our strings? 🙂

  149. I am sure that there are plenty of faults on both sides, and you will certainly agree with this.
    ——————————————————————–

    @Jay,

    Thanks a lot for agreeing this. But, this is not what u have been arguing about.

    I quoted something from Bible not to prove that Bible is bad but to show that there are many and contradictory things of the past that we fail to analyse and understand deeply after 1000s of years. I blame those who are reluctant to learn, follow many peaceful, tolerant, good advises but quick to learn and follow ONLY bad things from a book/religion.

    Promising Allah’s name, u know more that millions of common Muslims(including me) abt violence verses in Quran and Hadith. And u think that its norm for Muslims to do bad, lie, kill, torture…. non-Muslims. But its not. And I am not so pessimistic like u bro. Still in this world there are 99.99% Muslims/non-Muslims who like peace and harmony. I doubt if u have a single Muslim friend in ur life apart from doing argument with Muslims online which is a platform to vent anger, to hear in news, media. I also doubt if u hear/know single good thing about Islam/Muslims since u were born. But, I am different from u bro. Since childhood (since my grandparents) I have been with non-Muslim friends. All non-Muslims dont think like u. I can proudly say that I have non-Muslim friends who will stand for me for anything and protect me always. And I will do the same for them. My non-Muslim colleagues respect when I pray in office. Except a few, any common non-Muslims or Muslims are busy with their lives. They are not in hate topics/thought. At the end of the day, both Mulsim and non-Muslims behave like human beings without much difference.

    I know a lots of misunderstanding between Muslims and non-Muslims in this world. But I feel that its caused by 0.01% in both sides and media.

    I am shocked when I see very disturbing things in ur posts. Every moment whenever there is some human right violation in today’s world, u will bring Muhammad and justify.Thank God we dont live in those war times and maximum dont know/follow those violent verses. And I really dont understand the motives of bringing something happend 14 years back time and again and justify violence today.

    I remeber u said Muslims should not complain when Iraqis are bombed, raped as it is the same thing Muhammad did. I was shocked, sad. How can u justify the innocent’s suffering of today just becoz something happend 1400 years back in unconfirmed HISTORY? Kindly note that maximum Muslims dont go much deeper in relgion apart from praying, fasting. They dont emulate war practice of the time, 1400 years back.

    There are may disturbing comments from u like –
    -Muslims have no morality
    -Muslims dont belive in truth
    -for Muslims its ok to tell lie
    -West did wrong to allow Muslims (Imagine how east allowed millions of christians in Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, Lebanon, syria. How Muslim majority Phillippines became christian majority country by forceful conversion of American and Spanish forces. There are more christians in Muslim countries than Muslims in Europe. I dnt know how can u think that Muslims should not be allowed in non-Muslim countries and non-Muslim should not be allowed in Muslim countries)

    Sometimes I feel that those who never ever had single Muslim friend or non-Muslim friend in their lives are prone to misunderstanding.

    Dear brother, I belive that u haven’t gone to Muslim country in ur life. Please have look here the opinion of British expats and visit Muslim country like Malaysia, Turkey, Tazakhasthan, Kazakasthan, Uzbekistan, Morocco, Tunisia, Brunei, Dubai and see how really they live and what they think. These are almost crime and hate intolerant countries. U can also see non-Muslim country like Singapore where Muslims and Non-Muslims show best example of tolerance and peace while following their relgion in best way.

    “Malaysia: An Asian Retirement Paradise”:

    http://britishexpats.com/articles/malaysia/retiring-in-malaysia/

    Also please see here “Inside Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think”:

    http://www.livestream.com/amcnational/video?clipId=flv_8db39590-d28e-42f3-abb3-d6f4edda866c&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb

    A human being is born with clean heart, mind without any negative things. But Very often we common human beings are brainwashed and victimised by those self-oriented people, political opportunists, hate mongers, frustrated souls, propaganda, making mountain out of mole hill. Media also play a big role in this hate campaign as they sell more ( I have given ample evidence in other topic – Removing the Fear of Muslims in the USA).

    Today, when we try to see a good thing about a religion or community, bad and hate things pop up first. Imagine how a few people spend 24×7 to abuse/malign other religion/groups. i.e to abuse God and play with blood.

    I remember what people said how good, soft, tolerant Azad Ali Shah was when I was in school, University when he was not exposed to internet hate and online hate debate. If possible, I want to be old Azad and regret to be today’s Azad who is exposed to today’s dust and dirt and who cant control his anger today.

    Promising again, I ask Allah for peace in this world in my 5 times prayer. When there is any kind of natural disaster, bomb blast I pray for the victims n justice, I dnt check the faith of some1 needy when I help. There are many Muslims and non-Muslims who dnt check faith when they help in this world. I ask Allah to give right path to those who have taken arms and taken wrong path. I condemn any kind of violence in this world without seeing who does it.

    I feel that American Bedu’s blog contributes peace in this world and its bloggers make it a peaceful one but doesnt turn it to violent blog without long lasting good purpose. I hope, we all can safe from hate propaganda but spread love and peace everywhere. If there is something between the earth and sky, that should be only love, peace and harmony.

  150. I don’t understand why Jay would be banned from anything. You are always very polite as far as I see. 😉

  151. I’ve grown rather fond of Jay’s comments and actually look for them on the few blogs where I’ve noticed Jay leaves replies from time to time. I don’t always fully agree, but I don’t always agree with myself from one week to the next. 🙂

    I think it’s unfair you’ve been banned from some blogs because your opinions are too honest for most. You are no worse than some things I’ve read that are permitted simply because of the bias of the blogger.

    Oh well. Just know you have a fan. 🙂

  152. Jay in some ways I think you are very right. i also worry about multiculturalism and the future of our collective societies. I used to think that Multiculturalism was a grand thing years ago, but I now view it more as a HUGE and volatile marriage. Differences often attract people but in the end if the differences are not managed well and each partner in the marriage is more interested in their wants and needs rather than the health of the marriage as a couple it will end in disaster. Most often I think it is those people with similar compatibilities and values (cultural, religious, moral, eithical, et al) that make the most successful bedfellows and partners…the same with cultures…put to many different and diverse pieces together and it spells trouble. Not always but too often I think it is true.

  153. I’m a fan of Jay too!

  154. […] 2011:  A Perspective on Islam had 154 […]

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