Saudi Arabia/USA: All American Muslim


A new show will premiere in November on the TLC network, it’s the All American Muslim Reality TV show.  Similar to other reality shows such as Jersey Shore and ABC’s Modern Family, American Muslim will take viewers into the lives of five Muslim families in Dearborn, Michigan.

photo credited to TLC


The official description for the new series is as follows:


The families featured in the series share the same religion, but lead very distinct lives that often times challenge the Muslim stereotype. Among the handful of subjects profiled are Shadia and Suehaila, who are tight-knit sisters, but while Suehaila wears the traditional head scarf, is active in the Muslim community and prays five times a day, Shadia is outspoken, has piercings and tattoos and recently married an Irish Catholic who is converting to Islam. Also recently married, Nadar and Nawal are having their first baby and trying to find the balance between their traditional Muslim roots and American culture. Mike, Deputy Chief for the Wayne County Sheriff’s Dept., works tirelessly to educate the department about the Muslim religion in an effort to reduce discrimination and ignorance while his wife, an executive who works as a consultant to a major auto manufacturer, struggles to find the balance between work and raising a modern Muslim family. Throughout the series, viewers will see these families through some of life’s biggest events and challenges—from getting married and the birth of a first baby, to juggling busy careers while raising a family, to managing sibling dynamics and finding “Mr. or Ms. Right”

Stay tuned for November!


79 Responses

  1. Well it is abou time! I am not so sure what kind reception this show will have but I I the first ( and only comment) from the link was negative.

    I will jsut haveto wait to Novemeber and see how everything pans out.

    On a good note, Islamaphobia has declined in recent years, sources say.

    Lets keep our fingers crossed.

  2. I have no doubt that the people involved are Americans, but I don’t think the title “all American” one that most Americans would use. When I was a child I saw parades by Italian churches in Brooklyn. I have no doubt that that children I saw in those parades would today be middle men and women hardly any different from me, but at the time the feeling of church was hardly “all American”. Islam is not a easy fit for the American culture. Seeing smiling young woman wearing hijabs isn’t going to let me forget all the condemnations from Muslim clerics of everything Americans accept as normal. I am drinking a beer right now, something frowned upon by Muslims. Earlier today I had pancakes with bacon, another thing frowned upon by Muslims. I need hardly list all the things Islam disapproves of. Islam may become an religion comfortable in America but it isn’t there yet.

  3. I would be surprised if I DID see some semblance of religion on the show. They’ve already somewhat “teased” us into watching just by mere comparison of the 2 sisters. That should be a riot. What IS an All-American muslim, anyway? I see an oxymoron right THERE!

  4. This is off topic…

    Is not funny, that as soon as the media were certain that the tragic bombing and the shooting in Norway were not in any way related to a Muslim group, they changed their description of the culprit from a terrorist to a madman, or a Christian fundamentalist.

  5. I think it’s a positive step for American TV. The last reality show that made a big fuss was Sister Wives, and that show ended up opening the eyes of many Americans to the “normal” every day lives of Polygamists. America is a place where all colors, all creeds, all religions are supposed to be welcomed. That doesn’t exclude Muslims.

  6. I saw the news hype for this program and thought, “oh goodness, ANOTHER unreal ‘reality” show. Thinking it won’t be aired on OSN.

  7. Now what I want to see is a Muslim marrying a non-Muslim who doesn’t convert!!!

    @ Anon_Saudi – you are absolutely correct. The news was ‘played down’ as soon as it was discovered that the bomber was not Muslim.

  8. @Wendy,
    There are many Muslims who have married non-Muslims who don’t convert. Lately the hyper-orthodox have stirred up a lot non-approval. I had a Muslim Sudanese friend whose sister married a Christian. It was commen in their part of Sudan and no one thought anything of it. I’ve known a handful in the West as well- but they ususally avoid Mosque communitites because those seem to run by Wahabi/Salafi rules.

  9. Sandy, I don’t think any Muslim could argue that a Muslim man does not have the right to marry a woman from ‘the people of the book’ but I would love to see how they could justify a Muslim woman marrying anyone other than a Muslim. I think the Quran is pretty clear on that NOT being acceptable with the reason being that she would be under the control/protection of a non-Muslim. I know hadith does not hold sway with you but do you also read a different Quran than the rest of them?

  10. Sandy, I am married to a Sudanese Muslim. 😀 I am against all organized religions and do not belong to any 😀 I love Sudan BTW and would live there a couple of months a year if I could afford to.
    Even in the Canadian sitcom “Little Mosque on the Prairie” their was a wife who converted to Islam but no ‘mixed’ marriages. I can’t see that happening on a reality TV show so they are not actually showing reality but only what most Muslims will tolerate. My husband gets asked all the time if I am going to convert and people look so sad when he tells them that I will not nor should I have to. I really resent the fact that they ask me my religion or imply that I should convert!!!

  11. Oops, that Dr Lynn name came up and I guess strangers go into moderation or something so I’ll try again.

    Sandy, I don’t think any Muslim could argue that a Muslim man does not have the right to marry a woman from ‘the people of the book’ but I would love to see how they could justify a Muslim woman marrying anyone other than a Muslim. I think the Quran is pretty clear on that NOT being acceptable with the reason being that she would be under the control/protection of a non-Muslim. I know hadith does not hold sway with you but do you also read a different Quran than the rest of them?

  12. @ Anonymous, those are the things that make you go, “GRRRRRRRRRRR!”

  13. Am I mistaken but a Muslim man may marry outside of his religion, but a muslim woman may not. I think the idea of being under the control of “a man” for religion or any other reason is not typically American . To be honest it is my belief that those who keep say that Americans have a phobia towards those who practice Islam as thier religion must be looking for signs of it because I have yet to encounter a mass phobia against the Islamic religion. There is as much phobia against Christians, Jews, or any other religion at this time in America. What most American have a phobia against is the people who are terrorists. It does not matter what religion they belong to or what group the profess to represent. those are the people Americans have a issue with.

  14. Muslim woman can NOT marry a NON muslim guy. A muslim man can marry a non muslim woman. No need to come up with some kind of explanation, it is entirely a religious thing so that can’t be explained.
    On a slighter note, I think it could be good to show that muslims are just humans facing and struggling with the same daily difficulties. shows a non muslim “becoming” a muslim during 30 days (i.e living in the community, praying 5 times a day and getting to know Islam). It should be an obligation for each individual to live for a month as a Muslim/Christian or Jew.
    Americans are afraid of terrorism, it is a fact yet a lot of Americans connect Islam to terrorism which gives the awfully well-known equation Islam=terrorism.

  15. @Anonymous Saudi – ‘… as soon as the media were certain that the tragic bombing and the shooting in Norway were not in any way related to a Muslim group, they changed their description of the culprit from a terrorist to a madman, or a Christian fundamentalist.’

    I don’t know about that. BEFORE they knew who it was they were speculating and they had reason to believe that it could have been Muslims (especially since the Norwegian Embassy had been attacked by Muslims already) but it isn’t that they stopped calling him a terrorist just because he was NOT a Muslim. They still call him a terrorist, they are still charging him with terrorism. He wants us to know what he was all about so I guess it won’t be long before we find out if he was using the Bible to justify his acts of terrorism. If he DOES use the Bible to justify it then, trust me, they won’t let that go.

  16. Let’s hope this much ballyhooed upcoming reality show does show REALITY of “muslimness”, both religiously and culturally, in an honest and upfront manner … so that it is indeed a muslim version of “the cosby show”, which was so popular in the 80s.

    I suspect, though, that this new reality show will be one giant whitewash of the Cult of Misery & Death. It will be so far removed from the truth in order to spread the pathetic propaganda that islam is the “Religion of Peace”. In other words, a blatant lie.

    Hope they get into honor killings; pre-arranged marriages, child brides, female genital mutilation, suicide bombers and such. They will need a good supply of daughters to sustain the series :)- I’ll wait for the episode when they teach bomb vest making 101. The instructors can only demonstrate their use to the class one time. Will they show the Crazy Jihadist Uncle, or the Suicide Bomber Cousin? Let’s hope they show these realities of “muslimness”.

    Sadly, my guess is that everything shown will be positive. We won’t see those in the show attending a radical Muslim mosque or school and being taught to hate those who aren’t Muslims and convert or treat like dirt or kill. I am sure that they will show bigotry against Muslims?!? What about the bigotry against non-Muslims preached in every mosque every day? Let’s see if they will show that.

    I may watch a few times just to see how it is being done. My fear is that I will be saying good bye to TLC if this is just another bow to political correctness and just shows perfect Muslim families.

  17. Perhaps it may show how the American Muslim families feel about the issues you raised and how these issues have impacted on them as peaceful American Muslims.

  18. I’m guessing it will reflect accurately about the Muslims in Dearborn. So far I’ve heard nothing about honor killings and bombs there and they’ve been in that area for a very long time.

  19. There WAS a murder on the basketball court the other day though. I haven’t heard the supposed reason for it though both the victim and the killer were Muslim.

  20. Under the abaya, I’m sure they wrote it to be a nice peace of propaganda, except that polygamy isn’t really normal. These women were brainwashed from baby onwards and their theology forces them to comply.

    I don’t mind if people want to live in multi partner marriages,that’s ok by me. But only if the partners are free to choose it.
    And when women are free to have multiple husbands, instead of only the husbands to have multiple wives.
    But when men are allowed multiple wives and women are not allowed multiple husbands that starts an alarm bell. And then when you look into the ideology behind it you will invariably find a misogynist, male-invented, gender-discriminating dogma. A religion or dogma which makes sure women are brainwashed and forced by the ideology, the social rules, the community, etc. to conform. That’s why you see so few women who are free and/or have the power to think for themselves, outside of cults and religions, who choose to be in a polygamous marriage.

  21. I had a student who is a Muslim who came from Sudan. I asked her about polygamy and she asked her father why that was allowed. his answer was that a woman can only have (usually) one child per year, therefore more than one wife is necessary to propagate the faith. I think that is why the Mormon’s believe it is necessary as well.

  22. Turkey is offering a helleuva deluxe tourist deal:

    “Turkey invites non-Muslims to immerse themselves and test drive in the ‘joys’ of Islam for 30 days with no obligation to convert. If you decide Islam’s not for you, just say ‘NO,” you won’t have to worry about going through a beheading”. Here’s the promo from BBC …..

  23. Nothing wrong with “test driving” Islam for a month. Some people might actually LEARN a few things.
    Why is it ok to propagate Christianity with all their missionaries, door-to-door invites and what have you, yet the same leeway is not feasible for Islam?
    With regard to the idea of polygamy, it is permitted in Islam for many reasons.

    Average life span of females is more than that of males. By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. During pediatric age however, in childhood itself a female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, there are more deaths among males as compared to the females during pediatric age.

    During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.

    World female population is more than male population In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The USA as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

    8. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million more females in USA who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.

    Suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. Which option of the 2 would you prefer? However a few smart people before accepting, said they would prefer their sisters to remain virgins. Biologically, it is not possible for an average man or a woman to remain celibate throughout life. It may be possible in exceptional cases of one in ten thousand. In the vast majority, the person either gets married or performs illicit sex or indulges in other sexual perversions. Sex hormones are released in the adult body every day. That is the reason why Islam has prohibited monasticism.

    In Western society it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a DISGRACEFUL, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their HONORABLE, DIGNIFIED position in society and lead a protected life.

    Thus, the only two options before a woman, who cannot find a husband, is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honorable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women. (Dr. Zakir Naik)

    Polygyny is the exception, not the rule.

    What makes you think that women who choose to marry an already married man haven’t done so on their own accord?! It boggles the mind that you assume that much!

    So Aafke_art, it seems that you are among those that can’t wrap their brains around an idea YOU find distasteful.

  24. I’ve known several cases of polygamy all of the second wives chose to marry an already married man and all the first wives were devestated as were the children.

    I have no problem with it, if it is between ALL consenting adults- but the same legal systems that allow it are usually set up in a way that the first wife is pressured to accept something she doesn’t like or want.

    There are just as many gays percentage-wise in all countries. Countries like Saudi seem to have more than “normal” amounts of homosexual behavior due to gender segregation.

    Women are also homosexual and don’t want to marry either. As for all the rest of your nonsense I’ll let others address it who I am sure will do a better job.

  25. In this short post I said what I think about polygamy and polyandry, and why I think people should do what they want and why it should be forbidden by law regardless.

  26. @robinrcks,

    many a flawed logic in your comment, however that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, In KSA – with quite a few polygamous marriages…the gender ratio is 104 pr 105 i think.. more males than females ( considerable more) . then why onearth would one thing 1 man marrying more women is good. there’s going to be a bunch of men left without mates. trust me when i say single men left loose without any available women are a lot more dangerous than single women 🙂

    Again i’m perfectly ok with polygamy ,as long as the first wife has a choice too. We have to step away from what the rights of a man are and look at what the rights of both men adnwomen are — as human beings. you cannot expect a lady to be married to a man, have kids, bond and after a decade or so have him marry someone else just because he would like sex more often !!!

    If you take the logic of more women than men in certain parts of the justify polygamy , how about the numerous countries nithe world where men are more than women — can the women go around marrying 4 men? why not? you don’t want a brother hanging around single and frustrated do you?

    These rules were set at a time when women had even less rights. So islamic inheritance laws, marriage laws, divorce laws etc., gave those women more than they already had , but times change, these are days of equality in sexes, men and women are not the same and may not have the same roles in life but they are to be treated equally . 2 mena re not the same, don’t earnt he same, don’t live the same but rules for them are the same, so why not for women with a diff role than man? Islamic rules have to progress with time and accomodate the changing sensibilities . Until then there will be debates on the rules of the religion.

    As i said, i’m fine by polygamy as long as it doesn’t affect me. My husband is free is take another wife – young or old or help a widow that is his prerogative but it is also my right as a member inthe family to be a part of the decesion making , this is what i see lacking in all the polygamist choicesthe men i know have made.

    It’s basic courtesy you show to another human being – you don’t need a religious book to explain such things.. oh well guess i’m preaching to the choir anyway .

  27. @robinrcks: Re – Polygamy

    Of course all of us have a right to our opinions, whether stupid or intelligent. Your comments on justifying polygamy in islam are the most vicious that I have ever laid my eyes upon, bordering on pure bs.

    It seems like they are copy/paste directly from wahabi textbooks, which also give justifications for killing kafirs, not befriending kafirs, child marriages/pedophillia, misyar marriages, and the list goes on. What 7th century backward thinking in the 21st century ….

  28. Radha, *trust me when i say single men left loose without any available women are a lot more dangerous than single women
    And sooooo true!

    And if a bloke wants a second wife after ten years I think the children from wife #1 should also have a say in it, if the are older than say 10 or so. After all, it will affect them too.

    And of course if the wife #1 is lonely because hubby spends half or more time with the new sex-toy, then I think #1 should be fully in her right to get some support from another man, and marry him as well if she likes to.

  29. robinrcks…your entire comment is very sad. Who cares if there are more women then men, lots of gays etc in the world…the world does NOT revolve around straight men and their desires. Not to mention, not every woman wants to marry. For those that do wish to marry and can’t seemingly find a man where she is because there are more women then men…what is stopping her from moving to a location where the numbers are more even? What is stopping her from accepting the fact that right now, she wont get married until a man comes along that she wants to marry and is available…rather than turn her eye towards men that already have wives? What is stopping her from realizing that maybe it is not in her future to be married and she will live out her life unmarried? Marriage isn’t the be all and end all of every woman’s existence.

    Populations fluctuate…people adapt. Not everyone marries…not everyone wants too…not everyone is given the opportunity too. That’s life.

  30. 1. Of course, because I could explain it, no body wants to buy it.
    2. Of course, a few of you thought it boiled down to the man being a sex addict. AGAIN, for lack of missing the point.
    3. Of course, in YOUR flawed thinking, a woman who would sleep around, going from boyfriend to boyfriend, one-night stands, or even the proverbial “other woman” IS preferred rather than being a 2nd,3rd,or even 4th wife, complete w/just as many rights as ANY wife.
    4. Of course, “bs” is NOT in my vocabulary & people that need to resort to 4-letter words to express themselves, display THEIR limited vocabulary.
    5. No, first wife does not have to ACCEPT the idea, nor like it. WHO WOULD?!! This is not “set up” by legal systems, but explained in religion.
    6. Country w/highest pop. of homosexuals is China, followed by U.S.
    FYI: Saudi not even in top 5.
    7. “These rules” were handed down for ALL times. Women in islam have ALWAYS had rights, RADHA. You seem to not know that basic idea, so I will only say that to you.
    8. Religious muslims are not here to ensure that the world “revolves” around them. They are here to try their hardest to do what they can to get thru this world with their piety, devotion and all that good stuff in tact, so that they can reach some level of paradise.
    9. Not everyone is meant to marry, but people were not meant to be gay. Sodom & Gomorrah?
    10. Frankly, I don’t care about the gay community. What does the way YOU live your life, have to do with the way I live MY life and vice versa? What does the fact that that man has 3 wives, have to do with YOU?!!! Why do people insist on imposing THEIR western ideas of right & wrong on peoples of different cultures? Things we do not understand, nor ATTEMPT to understand, should be left alone. Especially, Islam and the East.

  31. Robin – Why do people insist on imposing THEIR ‘Eastern’ ideas of right & wrong on peoples of different cultures?

  32. Things we do not understand, nor ATTEMPT to understand, should be left alone. Especially, Islam and the East.”

    1. A woman wanting to be happy with her husband and kids is not a western idea .

    Islam and East is not exactly rocket science… I’m sure God didn’t send down something and expect people to be totally baffled.

    ““These rules” were handed down for ALL times. Women in islam have ALWAYS had rights, RADHA. You seem to not know that basic idea, so I will only say that to you”

    I understand perfectly well — , but women outside islam seem to have a bit more right nowadays and that’s what i have an issue with.
    Maybe those fine folks interpreting the koran didn’t do a good job 🙂

    all i know is there are certain things that don’t feel right or fair. of course i can brush it off saying it’s god’s will and he’s testing me ( for what???) sees me as lesser than my spouse — somehow somewhere in my heart i don’t buy that.

    At the same time i don’t think there is anything wrong in questioning and wanting change.

    anyway i’m quite positive F would not sneak in a 2nd wife 🙂 i tend to think we are more closer than an avg couple. plus there’s the image of my dad and brothers …

  33. ‘plus there’s the image of my dad and brothers …’

    LOL Now THERE’S an acceptable honor killing!

  34. Lynn, I agree, which is why I keep it limited to my beliefs and try to explain the way I see it. If I disagree with someone on here, why am I wrong? That goes BOTH ways! And, since I do not fall into the category of “imposing” Eastern ideas, that comment does not bother me, right?

    Radha, ALL women want to be happy with their husbands, to be sure! Although Islam & the East is NOT rocket science, it’s surprising how very little it is even WILLING to be understood. What exactly would those rights that “‘women outside islam” have that make you so proud? Not being sarcastic, but really fascinated about that statement.
    There are MANY things that may not feel right or even fair, but I don’t see how our mere feelings are going to rewrite an entire religion:)

  35. Ooooh. Honor kills. Not touching that one.

  36. @robinrcks,

    I cannot rewrite an entire religion, but that doesn’t stop me from questioning what i feel is not right or fair. the so called flaws .Not just of islam but of all of the religions.

    As for rights outside islam. there are many ,
    Inheritance for starters

    Sons and daughters inherit the same ? NO ? Why?

    It took us the path to concieve her , same 9+ months to carry and deliver her , we nourish and educate her the same as our son, so why would we leave her less than our son ?
    Especially in this day and age .

  37. @Robin – ‘And, since I do not fall into the category of “imposing” Eastern ideas, that comment does not bother me, right?’

    That comment shouldn’t bother you either way. BUT, this comment of yours, complete with judgment on the value of her thinking, DOES sound a bit like you DO wish the West’s ‘thinking’ was a bit less ‘flawed’ than your “eastern’ ways. You sound like a revert, am I right?

    Robinrcks: Of course, in YOUR flawed thinking, a woman who would sleep around, going from boyfriend to boyfriend, one-night stands, or even the proverbial “other woman” IS preferred rather than being a 2nd,3rd,or even 4th wife, complete w/just as many rights as ANY wife.

  38. Why should people marry anyway? There’s nothing wrong with consenting adults having sex. Or having a close relationship including sex without getting married.
    Marriage is just a convention. I am all for it, nice dinner, nice dress, and publicly announcing your commitment to each other. Although you don’t actually have to be married to do all these things either. Wiccas marry for a year and a day, after that you can renew if you wish. But why is it necessary that marriage is the one and only goal, and there are not other forms of human relations possible?

    The only thing I have a problem with is that one gender is forced to live following unequal rules. That one gender is supposed to be secondary. And that some invisible sky-daddy says so and therefore it is so.

    This whole marriage thing is a human construct, you can do it, or you can choose another form of human relationship.
    What is really wrong is give men all the power and women none.
    What is wrong is claiming it’s the will of whatever invisible deity-fantasy you believe in.

  39. What do you mean by ”people were not meant to be gay”? According to whom? Some ancient book full of bad morals and misogyny, which has already proven itself to be the construct of people whose moral development is way below ours?
    Animals can be gay, humans are gay, what’s the problem? Why shouldn’t humans be gay?
    And why do you think so many people in a segregated society start same sex relationships even if they are not really gay?
    Because people just want to be loved and to love in return.

    I wish people wouldn’t be so obsessed with who loves whom, but rather with who is wanting to subject, abuse, torture, hurt, use, rape, murder and kill whom.
    You really need to get your priorities straight.

  40. I personally believe that being homosexual/heterosexual is a choice people make. That said, I don’t care if someone else is homosexual or heterosexual. As long as they aren’t sexual assaulting me or anyone else, as the saying goes, “what two consenting adults do in their own free time is nobody else’s business”. Aside from certain medical conditions, I believe that most people are predisposed to be heterosexual. I really don’t care either way. I don’t see how it matters.

    I don’t agree 100% with any religion, and I don’t agree 100% with atheism, either. Marriage at the end of the day is a legally binding contractual agreement to show that two people have a financial and legal responsibility to each other. I don’t see how it’s necessary unless it’s for legal and/or religious reasons.

  41. Well, according to gay people I know it’s not a choice. They say they can’t help it, and one of my gay friends once said that if he had had the choice he would have chosen to be straight.
    And i consider they must know better than me who is hetero and although totally awesome still can’t see inside their heads so I think it’s a bit more reasonable to actually listen to those who are experiencing the actuality of being homosexual, than make up unfounded theories myself, or believing unfounded theories of other people.

    Of course in some situations otherwise heterosexual people do start homosexual relationships but that is usually in an environment which is unnatural and where they have no access to people of the opposite gender.
    Like in prison.
    or in Saudi Arabia.

  42. Every time a pro-polygamy person enters the debate here, I just want to get some popcorn and watch. Robinrks, leaving aside the point that your entire argument is copy and paste (I’m sure I’ve read it before in these exact terms), I’d love it if you can explain exactly what you mean by public property.

    Then, please explain why you throw around numbers like twenty five million surplus women, and then say polygamy is an exception. That’s what, twenty-five million exceptions? With regard to your comment on the millions of gays who further reduce the number of marriageable men, I think you overlook the fact that just as many women are lesbians who have absolutely no desire to have congress with a man.

    However, there is one thing that I positively love in the polygamy argument, and it is the fact that men, their wealth and sexual prowess are viewed as public good that simply MUST be apportioned equally among all women. Much like clean air, for example, or good schools. For instance, every taxpaying woman should be entitled to a pro-rated amount of male companionship, should she wish to collect. Now THAT”s the argument I can get behind. Wheee!!

    Now, on the rights that women outside of Islam have, don’t even get me started. And I’m married to a Saudi, for chrissakes.

  43. hmmm….I find the comment made by robinrcks a bit unsettling. As a woman I cannot imagine that another woman would be fine with her husband taking another wife. Why should a woman have to “accept” that as god’s will? If God made women to want one husband and not share him why in the next breath would he give the husband the implicit right to destroy her by giving him the ability to take away the thing she wants most from him? (his fidelity) seems pretty sadistic to me. And very much like a man invented construct to get a bunch of “sanctioned” nookie. I mean the woman starts out the marriage behind the eight ball and can be threatened with that second wife thing any time he wants.

    Would it not be far fairer for God to say “OK each of you has to decide on a mate…you must be faithful and pick only one each?” OR at a minimum…if God is worried about too many woman not having support etc. how about a man marry and have sexual relations with only one with but financially support (and not live with) another? That would solve the problem of women being public property whatever that means…but I/m thinking there won’t be too many men in line for that deal…so is it really all about “helping” the poor unattached woman out or is it more about his sexual desires?

    Also…why is it such a hard concept for people to understand that women can go throughout their lives without having sex. Many women become widows early or do not marry at all and do fine without sex. how about the woman who has been married and initiates divorce and has a “been there done that” attitude? It seems to me that the polygamy game is weighted on the men’s favor and has put the burden and pain on the women.

    Finally…if as the Sudanese man said that more than one wife is essential to spread the faith…i’d say perhaps a few hundred years ago that might be OK, but the world is so overly populated as it is to the point where many children and people starve. Perhaps the countries that allow polygamy (which generally are poor) might want to worry less about making new babies and more about taking care of the population that they already are having difficulty providing for.

  44. “Perhaps the countries that allow polygamy (which generally are poor) might want to worry less about making new babies and more about taking care of the population that they already are having difficulty providing for.”

    Love that!

  45. Well, let’s see, Lynn. Would you prefer to be known as someone’s wife or would you prefer “girlfriend.” (disposable just like THAT!), “homewrecker” (for being the other woman), a “booty call,” (because acccording to Aafke, it’s all good as long as it’s between consenting adults), or maybe you prefer the new “friends with benefits?” Are any of these terms (forget East or West) that you would welcome next to your name? There are stigmas attached to them all.

    Radhaa, on the inheritance. That is a long one. And, frankly, if you really cared what islam had to say on the matter, you’d look it up. It is quite intricate and long and many muslims aren’t that familiar with the details.
    Are you aware that in islam, the woman is given more financial security than the man? A woman in Islam has got no financial obligations – The financial obligation is laid on the shoulders of the man in the family – Therefore she need not work for her livelihood. But in genuine cases, where there are financial crisis in which both the ends do not meet, she has the OPTION of working. A religious provision! In the West, we women DEMAND to be treated equally, and look where that gets us. Joint or separate bank accounts where one party can monitor the spending habits of the other. Irrespective how rich the wife is, it is the duty of the husband to give lodging, boarding, clothing and look after the financial aspects of the wife.

    In case of divorce or if a wife gets widowed, she is given financial support for the period of ‘Iddah- and if she has children, she is also given child support. Islam gives equal rights to the man and woman. Qur’an clearly mentions that men and women, husband and wife have equal rights in all aspects, except leadership in the family. What’s wrong with THAT? SOMEBODY has to be the leader. There can’t be 2 head captains. It is mentioned in the Qur’an in Surah Baqarah Ch.2, Verse No.228. It says that, the women have been given rights similar against them (men) on equitable terms but the men have a degree higher. This means one degree higher in responsibiity, not in superiority! THIS is for ALL MANKIND! NOT just for muslims. The Qu’ran was sent to all mankind to follow. Not just the Arabs. Anyway, wouldn’t the fact that the male being the SOLE breadwinner (by divine right!) make it more palatable that he be given more share in the inheritance? In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance.

    For example, if a man dies and after giving the shares of other relatives, if the children (i.e one son and one daughter) inherit one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, the son will inherit one hundred thousand dollars and the daughter only fifty thousand dollars. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand, is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself. Would you prefer inheriting one hundred thousand dollars and spending eighty thousand from it, or inheriting fifty thousand dollars and having the entire amount to yourself?

    Easy answer, there. But, that’s how that goes.

    I hope I have put the inheritance “unfairness” into some semblance of perspective.

  46. People were not meant to be gay, according to Yahweh, God, Allah, Buddha and any others you care to mention! What kind of statement is that? Are you up on your Sodom & Gomorrah story yet? There was a reason for their demise.
    Can we not get further into this please? You like them. I don’t. Got it.

  47. Oby, a woman becoming public property means becoming the responsibility of the state, as in welfare, etc.

    Oby said: Would it not be far fairer for God to say “OK each of you has to decide on a mate…you must be faithful and pick only one each?” OR at a minimum…if God is worried about too many woman not having support etc. how about a man marry and have sexual relations with only one with but financially support (and not live with) another? That would solve the problem of women being public property whatever that means…but I/m thinking there won’t be too many men in line for that deal…so is it really all about “helping” the poor unattached woman out or is it more about his sexual desires?

    OBY!!!!!!!! This is already happening!!!! It’s called cheating. How long do you think this platonic financial support- only thing is going to last (since it has been decided that man is a sex addict) before he calls in a favor? Exactly! And, the whole idea of a marriage for those parties is what Allah is saying for keeping the woman’s honor in tact. NOT about sexual desires, although, I do not delude myself that some men have issues there. I personally know of a man who took a second wife just to “get back” at his wife. Just because he could hurt her that way! Nothing to do with sex. He was a workaholic, for pete’s sake, but was seriously going thru his “midlife” junk & just did it! Let me go on to relate that he found it difficult to continue the 2nd marriage for lack of time! He also found it hard to maintain equality with regard to the wives. A major requirement in keeping more than 1 wife.

    And, yes, it is really all about helping the unattached. Thanks for getting it.

  48. Aafke,
    I just know of people who decided to go back and forth. You’re right- it has no scientific basis. It’s just my theory. I often wonder if there are any “nurture” (in the nature vs. nurture debate) reasons why people would be gay vs. straight. I really don’t care what the case is- either way, people should be free to live how they choose no matter what. I fully support gay/lesbian/bisexual/whatever rights. For the record, though, I’m straight although there has been a time or two I have wished this wasn’t the case!

    I’m not Lynn but I must say that I don’t care what a guy calls me as long as he treats me right. If I want a lasting relationship, then I had better be with a guy looking for the same thing. If I want a booty call, then I need to hook up with a guy looking for the same thing. Otherwise, it just causes problems.

    Generally speaking, I am looking for a lasting relationship. I don’t care if a marriage takes place or not as long as we treat each other like household life partners. I had a guy tell me I was “like his wife” once who treated me like crap. I have seen some of my friends who are in a relationship treat each other like they are married, even if they are only “boyfriend and girlfriend”. So I really don’t see how girlfriend/boyfriend (which denotes that one person is interested in more than just sex with another person) is any better/worse than “husband and wife”. It all depends on how the two people in a relationship view their commitment to each other.

    I am okay with being just a “girlfriend” or “disposable” because it means that either one of us can leave without spending thousands of dollars through the legal system in order to divorce each other. If we enjoy each other’s company, than we would have no reason to leave, now would we? And eventually, we might legalize it by getting married, but I really don’t see a marriage contract as being necessary.

    That said, the terms “booty call” and “friends with benefits” are a little different than “girlfriend/boyfriend” or “husband/wife”. However, again, I am also okay with being just a “friend” as long as the guy treats me respectfully and with the intention to be with me long-term as long as we are a good match for each other. It all depends on what they consider their commitment to be to and whether or not they choose to be faithful.

    I honestly think putting labels on a relationship has a tendency to complicate things and is sometimes a bit shallow. The two people involved should clarify to each other what they expect and go from there depending on whether or not their expectations are, in fact, met.

  49. I find it remarkable that anyone who has spent time around Muslims doesn’t know how “disposable” wives can be. Financial support for the period of iddat? Wow. Incredible. Community property state laws do a divorcee or widow much better.

    In terms of numbers gays don’t effect the man/woman ratio because gay comes in both genders. And it really doesn’t matter, for the purpose of this discussion if people were meant to be gay. They are for whatever reason you chose to believe. And if they need some sort of “correcting” I’m sure an most beneficent, most merciful Allah is equipped to deal with it.

  50. Yes, StrangeOne, w/o marriage, separation is less “messy” but don’t you think that faced with the reality of divorce & all it’s complications, financial, kids, families, stigmas(in many cultures), etc, that is a major part of what makes it sacred? Do you have any idea how much divorce is HATED & reviled by Allah? God? Yahweh? Islam makes divorce quite difficult! It’s not just about “being divorced 3 times!!” I have always believed that marriage was a blessing from God. I understand that there are generally others who do not really get that.

    Why shouldn’t you label your relationship so you’d know where you stood? That way, one would not assume something the other took for granted.

  51. ‘Are any of these terms (forget East or West) that you would welcome next to your name? There are stigmas attached to them all’

    And who puts the ‘stigma’ there? Who exactly gets to decide what behaviors deserve ‘stigma’?

    I believe that ‘polygamous’ husband deserves QUITE the stigma attached to him. Or perhaps he should have something DEtached? Do I get a say? 🙂

    @Sandy – ‘And if they need some sort of “correcting” I’m sure an most beneficent, most merciful Allah is equipped to deal with it.’


  52. Lynn, you know better than I do that “society” stigmatizes.
    See there you go about the polygamous societies again. It is Eastern and you are thinking Western. Why does the West want the whole world “West?” Boring!! You cannot say the same for the East. The Eastern world appears to be proud of their cultures. I mean, ALL the eastern world. And, NO, you may not have a say what gets DEtached:)

    One more point: Allah will not be “correcting” them. But, He will surely deal with it.


  53. Allah does not hate or revile divorce. It is what he dislikes most of what is allowed. No need to embellish. Yet the Prophet granted a women a divorce from a man she herself admitted was a good man- simply because she didn’t want to be married to him.

    Luckily Allah doesn’t allow treating wives unequally (and if one choses a polygamous marriage and the other doesn’t -it’s unequal) that is even worse than divorce, which is actually allowed.

  54. @Robin – ‘Lynn, you know better than I do that “society” stigmatizes.’

    I do? How would you know that?

    ‘It is Eastern and you are thinking Western. Why does the West want the whole world “West?”’

    That was kind of my point! Those stigmas come from the ‘Eastern’ mindset. I could ask you, why does the East want the whole world ‘East’?

    But seriously, where is the evidence that the West wants the whole world ‘West’?

    The Eastern world can go ahead and be proud of their culture of adherence to the past while we in the ‘West’ will swell with pride for our liberties.

    ‘One more point: Allah will not be “correcting” them. But, He will surely deal with it.’

    I think it is against your religion to presume what Allah will do, isn’t it?

  55. SANDY:

    The Prophet (saw) said: The lawful thing which Allah hates most is divorce. This hadith shows divorce is among the legal things that are Halal but not good. It is Halal because sometimes the situation is so complicated that a man is compelled to divorce, when it is reasonable and there is no way out.
    NO embellishments.

    Sorry, Lynn, I thought you WOULD know that society stigmatizes. I don’t think the east came up with “booty call” and “friends with benefits”, et al. C’mon!

    Where is the evidence?!! Are you serious? Let’s mention the U.S in Iraq, for one! Saddam is gone. Why are we still there? To WESTERNIZE Iraq & as some have put it, to civilize Iraq. I think you see where I’m going with this.

    I am not presuming what Allah will or will not be doing, Lynn. It’s all in the Qu’ran! That is what I’m trying to tell you! LOL

    If you are going to debate me on my religion, please come with the facts.

    Well, this is interesting. How did we get this far?:)

  56. ‘I don’t think the east came up with “booty call” and “friends with benefits”, et al. C’mon!’

    No but they (and you) are judging ‘booty calls’ and ‘friends’ with benefits with the EAST’S measuring stick. That was my point. C’MON! LOL

    ‘I think you see where I’m going with this’ Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure I do know. But you wouldn’t get anywhere with it. 🙂

    What does the Quran say Allah will do with gays?

  57. Your response didn’t really address what I said but no matter.

    Interesting you don’t think there are booty calls in the East.

  58. robinrcks you sound like a ”revert” who has swallowed the salafi/wahhabi nonsense that god wants women to deal with polygamy. That it’s part of your ”deen” and that you will gain extra hassanat if you suffer being treated like a commodity.
    And Saudi Arabia is the ideal islamic country where everybody is righteous and nothing happens which god doesn’t like, and everybody’s happy.

  59. Don’t you love it when people try to compensate the lack of logic in their statements by the number of exclamation or question marks?

  60. Here are but a few examples of what “Azad” and “robinrcks” consistently present as the “sanitized” wahabi/salafi version of Islam AND what is actually happening in the REAL Islamic world:

    Uganda: Imam misunderstands Islam, tells girls to have as many children as possible so as to “subdue the world”. Everybody knows that only greasy Islamophobes intent on inciting violence believe that any Muslim has any interest in “subduing the world.” Sheikh Ahmed Kayemba must be a greasy Islamophobe :)- Kayemba, who says he has 23 children so far, has also encouraged his fellow Muslims to produce as many children as possible. No wonder muslim countries are way too much overpopulated …. just to “subdue” the rest of the world … hell with the poverty and other problems overpopulation brings with it!!!

    Somalia: ‘Offensive’ … “samosa” is said to upset militants due to a supposed resemblance to the Christian Holy Trinity. Delicious yes, but absolutely haram :)- The ludicrousness of Sharia authoritarianism vividly illustrated here in this article …..

    Read more:

  61. @robinrcks,

    the term “homewrecker” i would say applies to 2nd wives more than a fling a fling may come and go a 2nd is here to stay , your home then is definetly wrecked 🙂 both are bad period…

    As for inheritance, I do care what islam says for it affects a part of my family adnhence me directly. do not assume i don’t know abotu islamic inheritance laws, unfortunate for us i could probably teach a class on islamic inheritance much to my distaste.
    NO inheritance laws are not fair for women in this day and age, maybe during the prophets time, but not now. It has not caught up to this day and age adn that’s not just my opinion alone…

    Iddah is a joke – 3 months after having given her life and been “QUEEN”, what she’s suddenly no longer queen?

    Islamic inheritance assumes a son is the only one working and taking care of his parents and family and hence gives him more than the , This worked then,These laws are in many countries – this is nothig special to islam, Most of indian inheritance laws were of the stone age till women entered the workplace, till people stopped having a dozen kids, till people stopped with one or 2 kids, be it son or daughter.. nowadays inheritance laws are being overhauled the world over. All kids are treated the same. gender DOES not and MUSt not play a part.

    The only way islamic law can bridge the then and now gap with regards to inheritance is if it stated that whomever took care of the parents or lifted the heavier load of caring for their extended family would get more… which basiclly is saying take care of your parents for the money 🙂

    so no Islamic inheritance is not FAIr at all . F’s cousin is widowed and lives with her mother , works and is quite happily taking care of the mom and they support each other whereas her brother lives with his wife in another city and does not contribute to her family income. heck doesn’t even care to visit them often. he has a life of his own to live, sure per islam he’s wrong and he will get punished in his afterlife..inthis life …Why then did he inherit more from his dad than his sister did. she’s the one taking care of the parent… win win here for the man !!!! That’s what god intended? really? I don’t beleive it? if i did then my faith in god will be shaken. I see god as a benevelant father to ALL not just MEN.

    And don’t even start with the women are forced to work story. Outside the islamic world, women, choose to work, sit at home, study, rot onthe couch per their CHOICE and inconjunction of what works for their family. and they are not penalized by unfair inheritance laws for their choice.

    I’m not aginst islam or many of it’s good .I may not be a muslim but it touches my everyday life, i love andlive with one , but it would be a cold day in hell before i agreed to let islamic inheritance laws be applied to my family and especially my daughter.

    It needs to be worked on and I’mm 100% sure it will not be – atleast in my lifetime. oh well

  62. @robincks

    After 20 years suffering through an abusive relationship with a Muslim man IN a Muslim country…I was given not a single cent upon divorce. Why? Apparently because I (the wife) am the one that asked for the divorce…I get nothing. The Sharia judge did not care WHY I was asking for a divorce (though I had been asking for one for 18 years..took that long to get one…go figure) just that I was…and for that I got nothing…after 20 years and 5 children. I had no money, no car, no home, no experience on how to get any of it for myself as my ex had all the power and resources in our marriage. All I had after 20 years of marriage was a divorce decree and sole custody of ALL my children…which, at the end of the day was all I really wanted.

    My children were only alotted Bd150…for 5 children. That is barely $350 for 5 children. He only paid that for a short time then stopped…when I went back to court they couldnt care less. He has not paid a single penny since then and nobody is making him.

    Now you, and others, will probably say…THAT”S not Islam…that’s muslims (and I use the word sarcastically) doing it wrong…committing sin etc. And I say…that IS Islam because it is what muslims follow and practice. Sharia Judges are learned and pronounced capable of passing judgement and Muslims must follow what they say. If it isn’t Islam than someone needs to tell that to the countless Sharia Court Judges who routinely spit in the face of Muslim women and tell them to either suck it up and go back to their marriages…or punishes them further by not holding husbands/fathers accountable for the abuse (financial as well as physical) they reign down on the family during and after divorce. Hold these so called Muslim men (who are entitled to 4 wives no less) accountable for their actions and then say it’s all fair and equal.

    I would rather be a one night stand to a stranger that you seem to think is so shameful then ever again be subject to the so called perfect system of Islamic Law. It is corrupt and Muslims make it even more so.

  63. btw…No, Islam isn’t rocket science for sure…apparently it’s brain death because even the most basic of human rights (care for the ex wife and children) after divorce is barely a concern of those in charge. And before you say that is just MY experience…let me tell you that after 23 years in an Islamic country…my treatment at the hands of Sharia judges is the norm for women…not the exception.

  64. I like how you pointed out that those sharia judges are the ones who really know what Islam is about, that they are the super-experts.

  65. robinrcks,
    I do not see how a contractual agreement signed between two people is sacred in the least- which is all a marriage contract is. Much more important is what the two people in the relationship have pledged to each other (and God/Allah) and whether or not they keep those promises. I do not see a marriage contract as a blessing from God. Perhaps I would see sharing my life with someone who was a good match for me where there is mutual love and respect (and for me- also fun and tad bit of strangeness). When I have found such a person, I will feel blessed, whether or not there is an official marriage ceremony.

    I have heard so many women complain about their husbands, even ones that are in a content marriage, that I feel very blessed to be single now. This is even more so considering that my ex-boyfriend was a real jerk. While I would like to find a person I can settle down with, I don’t need a signed piece of paper processed through the legal system(s) in whatever country I happen to need it processed in to believe he loves me or that it is sanctioned by God.

    For the record, booty calls happen all over the world, even in KSA and other “eastern” countries. There are people who sleep around and those that don’t in every country. Just in some places it is hidden better than others due to societal expectations.

  66. I don’t see where the ”sacredness” comes in either.
    In Islamic marriage particularly the wedding is a business contract, the husband provides for the wife for as long as he wants her, the wife provides sex and children, which are the husbands property.
    The word Niqah, means ”marriage” only in the context of the wedding contract, in all other usages in Arabic it means ”to fuck”
    The mahr (dowry paid by the man to the woman), is literally payment for sexual pleasure. All four islamic schools pronounce it to be so.

    I prefer the western concept of marriage, where you partner is your best friend, your most beloved, and your closest family.
    Instead of your customer. Who pays you for sex and producing babies.
    I know that of course real Muslims, in the real world, will see marriage in a more natural way. But purely Islamically speaking; by Islamic law, marriage is a business contract.
    Nothing ”sacred” about it.

  67. robinrcks…

    Yes, men cheat. They cheat whether they are married or not. With the islamic ability to take four wives it is giving the man a free and halal way to have sex with other women. The first (or even consecutive wives) have nothing to say about it. They have to suffer the humiliation of having to share their husband. AND they can’t do anything about it because according to islamic law HE is not doing anything wrong, even though SHE I am sure must hate it. She has no legal recourse because he did nothing illegal.

    In monogamous marriage there is no bullet proof guarantee that the husband won’t cheat. But if he does and the wife wants to, she can kick the bum to the curb and is not REQUIRED to share her husband with another woman. She has laws that protect her and her children. EVEN IF they divorce, the law sees his first set of children as his responsibility until they reach adulthood even if he has another family. She is not required BY LAW to suffer the humiliation of sharing her husband. BTW, the law applies in reverse too. If the wife cheats the husband has a right to divorce the woman and not be required to share his wife with another man.

    They are considered equals…for better or worse…the law applies to both of them the same.

  68. (Some) interesting & (some) very valid points to be sure, and some I even agree with, but, it’s apparent that my explanations are only adding fuel to your fires against certain aspects of Islam.
    So, I will stop.

    Aafke-Art said: …
    In Islamic marriage particularly the wedding is a business contract, the husband provides for the wife for as long as he wants her, the wife provides sex and children, which are the husbands property.

    I could prove that THAT IS ALL MARRIAGES, but I won’t.

    The mahr… All four islamic schools pronounce it to be so.

    That is a blatant lie.


    I never said the Islamic law system was perfect.


    If you still care, Allah condemns homosexuality explicitly in the Qur’an: “Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? Nay, You are a people who transgress.” (26:165-166) It is the sin of the people of Lut and its Arabic word is lutiyya. Liwat is the word for sodomy, under which heading the topic of homosexuality is found in the books of fiqh. Under shari`a both the (same-sex) sodomizer and sodomized are passible of death. The laws of other religions were similar until not so long ago. The Companions considered it so abhorrent that they subjected the culprits to burning, an extreme punishment not meted out for any other offense. As for lesbianism, the Prophet (s.a.w.) said that it consisted of zina (adultery) and so it is subject to the same ruling as zina, which is death for the married, and lashes for the unmarried. Our relaxed attitude in this day and age is purely a product of the times in which we live, where morals have been completely liquefied so that we no longer know the difference between black and white, so to speak. If someone was covered with dirt from head to toe (making him smelly) and insists that it is his way of life, we would not keep company with them for one second. What about someone who insists on his deviations -yes, deviations!- when even the shari`a of Jews and Christians explicitly condemn it? Like I said, you like them, I don’t. I got it.

    I am outta here:))

  69. Robin, My question was ‘What does the Quran say Allah will do with gays?’

    I didn’t ask you if he ‘liked’ it or not. What does the Quran say the punishment will be?

    I don’t think I know any gay people right now (openly anyway) so I couldn’t say whether or not I like them. But I DO believe they deserve to have just as many rights as any other human being. I get it that you don’t think they deserve to live. I understand that there are many Muslims that feel that way about certain groups of people that they are taught to hate. I find that rather unfortunate for the world. Don’t you?

  70. ‘I could prove that THAT IS ALL MARRIAGES, but I won’t.’

    How in the WORLD would you be able to do that?!?!?!

  71. Lynn, The punishment of gays in Islam is death. Robin somehow thinks accepting such judgement on people is decent. Even worse, she thinks such morality which calls for killing people for exercising their rights over their own bodies, is far superior morality of ours.

    We should simply recognize people like Robin for what they are. Immoral sick people, who call for the murder of the innocent and blame it on accepting a faith.

  72. I have friends that are gay/lesbian/bisexual and they are pretty much like any other person- they just happen to be attracted to the same sex. They have similar relationship issues as other couples due to personality differences, etc. In some cases, they even raise their own children together and are very good, normal, loving parents. I think you’d be surprised at how average they are compared to other people. To be honest, I really can’t tell until the person informs me of who their significant other is. Someone you love may be gay/lesbian/bisexual and you may never know…just think about that for a while…how would you want a loved one to be treated if he/she is homosexual? Whether or not you agree with their life choice, they aren’t really hurting anyone else. I believe that drug addicts, etc. are much worse for society than homosexuals. In fact, I think I’d date a quality woman before I’d date an alcoholic man, and I’m not even attracted to women. Thankfully, there are plenty of good quality men on the planet to choose from. 🙂

    As for people that are covered in filth, if they bathe regularly the filth could just be due to their occupation. Having been exposed to construction workers, etc. growing up, it really doesn’t bother me. I shook hands with a guy once who was high on something (I think) and most likely homeless. That creeped me out a little (also because he seemed to stare at me in a way in which I found unsettling) and all I could think about after that was sanitizing my hand. So I guess dirt and sweat don’t bother me, but someone who isn’t sanitary can and does bother me.

  73. Our relaxed attitude is certainly of our time and the result of human moral evolution away from the primitive bronze dark age composers of the Abrahamic to a more enlightened, more humane and vastly superior moral standard.
    If it weren’t for religions and their rigid dogmatic suppression, people like Robinrcks wouldn’t exist anymore, except in some dark backward corners of the wild.

    Robinrcks if you don’t think the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence do not consider Mahr payment for sexual pleasure you really need to inform yourself about your chosen religion. I have put up many links here before, you can google it for yourself.
    Mahr is paid by the man to the woman for the sexual pleasure she will provide. Fact.

    If you don’t like it maybe you should do some critical thinking about your chosen religion. There are other religions out there with more respect for women as human beings.

  74. Sorry paste copy following:

    An author of the Hanafi School defines the mahr as “the money, which is obligatory on the husband in ikd al-nikah (the marriage contract) for manafi’ al-bid’ (sexual pleasure). (See ibn al-Hamam, Sharih Fath al-Qadeer, vol. 3, p. 304, Arabic version).
    The Hanbali School of jurisprudence defines mahr as “the money paid by the husband for the purpose of nikah (marriage). (See ibn Kadamah, Al-Mughni, vol. 6, p. 679, Arabic version).
    The Malike and Shafi’i Schools defines the mahr as “the money due to the future wife in return for [the husband’s] haqq al-isstimta’ (sexual pleasure) in the marriage contract”. (See al-Hattab Muhammad bin Abdel Rahman al-Mughrabi, Mawahib al-Jalil li-Sharh Mukhtassar Khalil, vol. 5, p. 172-Maliki Jurisprudence). For Shafi’i School see al-Nawawi, Kitab al-Majmu’, vol. 18 p. 605). All these references are cited by Sheikh Mahmud Muhammad al-Sheikh, Al-Mahr fi Al-Islam bayna al-madi wal-hadir, published by al-Maktaba al-Assriyya liltibaa’a wal nashr, Beirut, Lebanon, 2003, Arabic version.
    The Maliki and Shafi’i Schools of jurisprudence regard the mahr as “the money paid for the future wife in return for sexual pleasure is an integral part of the Islamic marriage contracr and its source is prescribed in the Qur’an. Sura al-Nissaa reads the following:
    “Fa ma isstamta’tum bihi minhunn fa aatoohunna ujoorahunna” (So for that pleasure which you have enjoyed from them, give them their prescribed compensation). Qur’an 4: 25

  75. Actually having a lot of homosexual men would be a great bonus to an islamic society, because then there would be no men left without partners if other men decided to make use of their god-given-right to four wives.
    Given that at the prime of life numbers of men and women are equal, 50% by 50%.
    They really didn’t think these things out too well when writing the holy books.

  76. @Robin

    In Islamic marriage particularly the wedding is a business contract, the husband provides for the wife for as long as he wants her, the wife provides sex and children, which are the husbands property.

    I could prove that THAT IS ALL MARRIAGES, but I won’t.

    Actually, no, you can’t. Which is why you won’t. Children are the husband’s property? In all marriages? Husband provides for the wife? In all marriages? No you can’t. So you won’t.

    Don’t you love it when logically and rationally impaired converts jump the boat when they find themselves defeated in an argument?

  77. @Reality Based Movie on Jehad

    An indian american muslim friend of mine recommended a reality-based movie, which I watched online last weekend. It is reality based script gleaned from the FBI files surrounding the Lackawana-12, a muslim terrorist group near NYC. The story revolves around the plan to blow up the nyc subway system.

    It portrays how muslim sleeper cells are formed, through marriages to non-muslims, how the entire families are involved (from grandmas to kids) in the jihad effort, etc. Of course, names and places have been changed in the movie script to protect the fbi sources.

    The name of the movie is SACRIFICE or Kurbaan in hindi/ordu. It can be watched on this link, and is about 21/2 hours long ….

  78. Through five families who supposedly represent a religion of over one billion, the show is dedicated to depicting Muslims as “just like us.” Yet one might argue that these five families are not even representative of their own Muslim neighbors in Dearborn….

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