Saudi Arabia/Bangladesh: Gladiator’s Story

 

American Bedu is pleased to give readers a glimpse into the life of Gladiator.  Of course Gladiator is a pseudonym in order to protect the identity of this expatriate.  Gladiator has promised to speak very candidly with American Bedu on what it feels like to come to Saudi Arabia as a laborer and what kind of prejudice or racism he has felt.  I have chosen to leave Gladiator’s responses exactly as I have received them from him.

“Gladiator, how old were you when you first came to Saudi Arabia?  Which
city did you come to?  What was the classification on your visa and
eventually your iqama?*

I was only 17, but my country dose not allow to work abroad until its
22. I had to change some of my papers, had to do so because at that
time my family was in a severe financial crisis.
I came to Madina in 2007. I think my self blessed cause i live some
where which is  Prophet ( PBUH)’s living place. And I can pray at the
holy mousqe of Madina. Ofcourse its a blessing for me.
I actually its a Private Driver visa, same in Iqama.

Where did you come from?
What made you decide to come to Saudi Arabia at such a young age?  Did you
have any family in the Kingdom?*

I am from Bangladesh, its a south asian country. I
I actually came here for providing my family, gave up  my study so
that my younger sisters may continue their study and my mother can
manage the house hold.
No, I dont have any family here, I am not married yet.

What type of work did you start out doing in the Kingdom?  What was
included in your employment contract?  Were you given housing?  What was
your salary?*

As i told you before that in my Iqama ocupassion is house driver but i
never worked as a driver . My sponsor was willing to replace his old
shop clerk with me.
Yes, there was a contact that he will pay me 900 ryals at starting
month and will increase continuously in mutual understanding. But the
reality was something else. I worked random 9 months for only 500
ryals salary. i had to do cause i was told, work or I will send you
back to your country. I thought my self it will be a disaster for my
family if i got back. There was not any other options for me. I was
promised to my mother I wont get back until i made some financial back
up.
No, housing was not included to the contract.
Now am working in a watch shop which is owned by my sponsor. And now
we are partner I owned half share of it And our partnership is going
well. Now a days he take care of me and my side also.

How were you able to live?  What was your home like?  How many lived there? 


i was received by my auncle from whom i purchased the visa. And i
lived with him my first year of saudi arabia. It was a flat. We had
three rooms and a kitchen. We lived 8 at their. And now am living with
my country friends.

*Did you work more than one job?  If so, what kind of jobs?  Did you require
your sponsor’s approval to work another job?*

i never worked out side other than my sponsor’s job. First year  of my
abroad i worked as an assistant shop clerk, than another three months
as a tea boy at my sponsor’s office. Then next 7 months as a full time
guard in his reconditioned auto mobile shop. Then at the shop again as
a head clerk. And after a year and half he made me his partner. Though
it is illegal to have a shop owed by foreigners . You must show a
saudi name on the shop’s documents.
Yes it requires an approvment to do any other job but sometimes its
not acceptable by the authority , its not legal to work something else
which is not mentioned on Iqama.

How has your relationship with your sponsor resolved over the years?  Has
your salary been increased?  Have you been given better opportunities?*

It was not a healthy relationship at the starting. Specially it
became worst when he prevented me to work in a restuarent. I tried to
make him understand, he is paying be 500 per month when the restuarent
is offering me 1200 per month with housing and meals. Sad but true he
did not allow me to do so. He said,”you are a Bangladeshi and 500
should be enough for you. Look at the road cleaners they are being
paid only 200 ryals after work all day long!” Then I learnt from my
aunle, you have to butter up your sponsor. Smile at him always. Right
or wrong what ever he is just obey his order. Make him understand he
knows better than you and he is the superior one… And  it worked!
Now a days he is so kind and friendly to me. And also keeping his
word. And made me his business partner. This is the better opportunity
i have been given. And ofcourse  i am grateful to him for his
kindness.

*What kind of racism or prejudice have you experienced as a Bangladeshi
expatriate in the Kingdom?  Do you receive racism from other Saudis or other
expatriates too?*


let me tell you two real story of mine it will clear the  racism.
I experinced the racism for being a Bangladeshi and for being an non
arab At the very first day in kingdom.  When I arrived at Madina
airport the Saudi airport guard did not allow me to carry the curt he
just took away the curt from me to serve an egyptian visitor. An when
i was passing the exit door i  saw a saudi guard was checking passport
of egyptian visitors and when i offer him my one he just shouted at me
and said something rude!!
Once i was in a party at my sponsor’s house. When it was time to offer
pray. His younger brother who is my friend also and do respect me,
smiled at me and told me to be the Imam. But ine of his eldest brother
said,” oh! Are you crazy?? A Bangladeshi WILL be Imam and offer the
Salah when we Saudis are present at here!”

Youngs saudis love  make fun of us  they  swear at us. And it is time
to report at police they will allow the saudi to escape! We non arab
have no rights to protest against this. Because saudis Are superior
than us.
Yes it is true, You will find alot  of Bangladeshies  are committing
crime and some sexual harassment also happened by some bully
Bangladeshi but that doesn’t mean all are same . And  first has to
capture the root of that . You will pay them low and expect alot of
work. You pay them 200 ryals per month for road cleaning whom are
working more than 8 hours a day and hope them not to commit crime!
They have to learn that, TREAT A MAN WELL, HE WILL TREAT YOU WELL.
There are some saudis Whom are so kind to their labours and respect
them take them as a family member. Dont think that all saudis are
same.
Yeah, racism is present among the labours but not that much.

*What are your plans?  How long do you anticipate staying in the Kingdom?
Why?*

Am the sole provider to my family, i am carrying my sisters study cost
also . Its hard to save some money for my future so actually i dont
know when i will able to go my country and start a business their.

*What has been your best experience in Saudi Arabia?*

it is  my first Salat Al Eid al Fitar at Masjid Al Haram in Madina. It
was awesome! They were people from every part of the world. Later i
heard they are were at least 2 million people and all were offering
prayer of Eid!

*Are there any additional comments you’d like to make?*

dear readers of American Bedu, please dont get me wrong. I am not
blaming or condemning  saudi arabia or its people. Bad people will be
found around the globe not only in Saudi arabia. And dont think that
Islam is the resin behind this abusive behaviour.  Prophet ( PBUH)
said, ““He who has an atom of pride in his heart will fail to enter
paradise” and he also said, “Allah has relieved you from the burden of
ignorance with its pride in the fathers and the ancestors. You are all
from Adam, and Adam is from dust. There is no difference between an
Arab and a non-Arab, nor between a black man and a red man, except in
piety” and he told, ” Pay to labourer his wages before his sweat
become dry.”

There were some issues between employee and the labours, they still
are. And always will be. A employee will try to take out the best from
his labour by a possible salary and a labour will always try to get
better salary and contract. So there will be a collision. But please
dear readers dont be racist. A man is man no matter he is an arab or
non arab, a muslim or non muslim. Treat us well. Be a friend not a
master.”

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99 Responses

  1. This interview truly provides great insight in the life of the labourer’s working here in Saudi.

    I know this might sound sappy but his last answer made me cry. Thank you “Gladiator” for doing this interview with Carol. Wishing you all the best!

  2. What a touching story.Despite all the hardships and discrimination he experienced the man still remains positive and speaks up against racism!

    Gladiator-did your sponsor allow you to visit your family in Bangladesh at all?You must miss them dearly. What you are doing for your sisters is amazing!

    thanks for this interview Carol!

    I always felt so bad about those road cleaners and tried to give them some extra money when they come to our car..but 200 riyals a month?that is disgusting and inhumane.

  3. That was a sad read. Until the end.
    Alhamdullilah he has his religion or else he could have been a mess! He understands the difference between Islam and muslims and that seems to have sustained him.
    “Gladiator” is an appropriate pseudonym.

  4. Thanks you so much for this interview Bedu. Gladiator thanks for sharing your experience. You may have left school early but you sound like you have acquired what no school can teach: wisdom.

  5. AB, this is a wonderful move. I wish it could be translated to arabic so other readers may understand the feeling/situation/position of many expatriates. What is really hard to believe is that most religious people/thinkers/ writers etc, rarely ever speak against this problem. It baffles me why don’t they highlight the incentives and consequences to cure the problem. But then, they are so very busy fighting over women driving cars, as if it’s the only problem in our society!!!

    One thing I would like to add here; Gladiator, you’re not alone, even Saudis get discriminated by other Saudis based on skin colour, racial roots, tribal position, class and so on, believe it or not… Racims is a serious ailment that has been weakening our society for ages. Your role is exactly like mine, we need to spread awareness, to show people how insolent, demeaning, incosiderate and oppressive are their actions can be toward non saudis. I cant safely say that you have partially fulfilled your role by speaking up in this interview.

    May Allah bless you:)

  6. A Saudi Woman: Would you be willing to translate this interview to Arabic and post it? I agree with you that would be an excellent move.

  7. @Gladiator,
    It was a pleasure to read this and I wish you well in all your endeavors. It sounds like you’ve really made the best of your opportunities good and bad, and that you keep a positive attitude.

  8. @Gladiator – ‘But please dear readers dont be racist. A man is man no matter he is an arab or non arab, a muslim or non muslim. Treat us well. Be a friend not a master.”

    That sounds great BUT you’d already quoted your prophet who said:

    ‘There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab, nor between a black man and a red man, except in piety”

    So, looks like there IS a difference between a Muslim and a non Muslim, if you want to follow your prophet, that is. I guess you should just be thankful that at least you are a Muslim so that’s one less thing to discriminate against you for.

    Now that you are your sponsor’s ‘partner’ do you make more than the 1200 riyals a month you could have made at a restaurant? Does it make up for all the time that you were cheated by this same person?
    How are you able to trust when the relationship started off with your sponsor not following through with his promises?

    I wish you all the best and hope that everything works out for you and you are able to get home to your family and make a life in your own country?

  9. first of all sorry readers. For some spelling and grammar mistakes.

    @ Felicia Parker, thanks dear for you wishes… the truth some times make us cry no matter the background.

    @ Laylah, hmm, actually i never asked him for a short leave. May be he would allowed me. And still I am struggling for a strong financial backup for my future. So there was/is not any scope to a vacation.
    Hmm, but do you no that government fixed their salary as 1000-1200 but some private companies recruit the laborers for road cleaning and pay them 200-700 ryals; they just hijack those needy laborer…

    @ robinrcks, thank you. Actully human nature is that, he always try to sustain in every situations. I try my best as a muslim.
    Lol Actully i would like to refer myself as BadGladiator.

    @ annie, welcome dear. We all are student in our world. Our lives teach us in everymoment. Lol and wisdom nah… Am not.

    @ A Saudi Woman, hmm, the most worst thing is in here that no body is allowed to speak up about their rights. yeah i do know about the racism. Tribal racism is a big factor. I did a comment regarding this issue on a post of Under The Abaya.
    And for woman driving, i cant understand what is the fact behind banning this. At the time of our Prophet (PBUH) women were allowed to ride horse and could take apart in wars also. There were famous female scholers! And our so called scholars are just inspired by cultures and authentic Islamic evidence means nothing for them.

  10. Good for you, Gladiator. Your hard work and dedication have served you well (and your sponsor!). I sincerely hope you prosper and maybe in time find a nice lady and have 5 or 6 little gladiators or gladiatorettes to keep you busy.

    From a reading of your story it seems that your situation is fairly good considering the known circumstances, due to your efforts and abilities. It also appears that it is somewhat precarious, depending too much on people and events beyond your control. All I can say is ‘be careful’ because things change and dependence on others makes one vulnerable – but you know this. Good luck.

  11. @ lynn, hello there! Its not you fault to take Islam that way. Some of so Called Jihadist are imposing Islam that way. Especially after the historical 9/11. We dont differ between a muslim and non muslim.
    I would like to add a Hadith for you,
    ” some men were passing by with a dead body of a jew, Muhammad ( PBUH) and some of his followers were sitting near by. Suddenly Prophet ( PBUH) stood up to show respect. one of his followers said, o Rasul ( PBUH) its a Jew’s dead body!
    Muhammad ( PBUH) replied, he is a Jew but a human! ”

    i should believe him. Because Kingdom’s law dose not allow a foreigner to own a business..

    Thanks dom your wishes dear.

  12. @ jay kactuz, “I sincerely hope you prosper and maybe in time find a nice lady and have 5 or 6 little gladiators or gladiatorettes to keep you busy.” hahaha lol thanks for your “precious” wish.

    I am care full about the fact. But I dont have any option. I must depend on him. No way.
    Am thinking of do some paper works foe evidence of our partnership. ( dont no local court will accept it or not)

  13. Gladiator – Is there any reason why one would not be able to terminate their contract with a Saudi employer and go home and then come back sponsored by another employer who promises them more, like a restaurant where you said they would pay you 1200 riyals?

    I didn’t get my understanding of Islam from the jihadists, I got it from what you said was your prophet’s lips:
    ‘There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab, nor between a black man and a red man, except in piety’

    Perhaps I just don’t understand what ‘except in piety’ means? Could you explain what it means to you?

  14. Lynn, you are absolutely irredeemable. Yeah, I get it – that is a hard question to answer – full of pitfalls. Well, in the ‘piety sweepstakes’ I am at the back of the pack. Personally, I find piety to be a lesser virtue on its own; in the face of evil it is pretty darn useless.

  15. @Jay – Are you SURE we aren’t related? LOL

  16. Thanks for your reply Gladiator!
    I hope you succeed in your business and can soon return to your family.
    What do your sisters study and do you have a large family if you dont mind me asking?

    Why do all the conversations on here have to turn to muslim or saudi bashing.. it’s so boring to read those comments, as if the whole original topic doesn’t matter. Like listening to a self righteous broken record.Yawn.

  17. Laylah, the post itself was ‘Saudi bashing’ (based on the facts of an individual’s personal experiences). Where would you expect the comments to go? LOL

  18. @ Lynn, one can leave any time he want, but when its come into Re Entry Visa, one must have his/her sponsor’s permission. The whole process is based on sponsor. You cant make move with out that. Even when you are in jail it is your sponsor who can take you out !
    Yeah it was possible at a point of time, but now a laborer can not entry in the Kingdom after his Final Exit.,He must complete a 5 years term.
    Dear Lynn, did you see the Hadith above which I quoted for you. Word is a thing you can take it in many way. If you are willing to a counter attack it is not possible for me to make you understand and specially when you are not optimist..,
    there are plenty of Hadiths and Ayats, which contain how to live with non muslim, how to behave with them, and how to respect them as I respect my muslim brother.
    Dont be fooled by some exrimist people who dose not belong to Islam bur do claim himself as muslim and do harm to them.

  19. @ lylah, there in high school. In my country it costs a lot to study in a better school or college. We are 2 brothers and 2 sisters. Am eldest of them. And my brother is youngest one among us. His 6 years old and attending his pre- primary classes. No dear, I did not mind. 🙂

  20. Of course, I agree with Laylah’s last comment.

    Lynn, I do NOT agree that the original post was posted with the idea of Saudi bashing. As it was posted by AB, and her husband was Saudi, I didn’t get that vibe at all. I approach all of her posts as “FYI” and am not here looking for bashing of any culture.

  21. Thank you for presenting your story, Gladiator, and thank you AB.

  22. Thanks for the interview!

  23. Robin, I didn’t mean say that Carol meant it to be a Saudi Bashing. I meant that the interviewee is the one that brought out the ugly racism that is in Saudi Arabia. That is why I said ‘the post itself was ‘Saudi bashing’ (based on the facts of an individual’s personal experiences)’ Are we supposed to ignore his experiences and instead talk about how kind and generous Saudis are to Bangladeshis?

    @Gladiator – ‘Word is a thing you can take it in many way.’

    I know. That is why I ask you to explain them to me, so I can understand. I’ll ask you again. Perhaps I just don’t understand what ‘except in piety’ means? Could you explain what it means to you?

  24. Lynn-I disagree.

    The post was not about Saudi bashing “based on the facts of an individual’s personal experiences”.

    I think it was a post about hope, respect, courage and trust.

    It was a story about an extraordinary person and his journey in Saudi-Arabia.

    It was a reminder to us all that no matter what hardships we go through in life, the most important thing is to trust in God and look forward to the future that it is a brighter one.

  25. Sure, it was a post about hope, respect, courage and trust in the face of SEVERE RACISM by supposed brothers in faith.

  26. @ lynn, sorry brother I can’t explain because of my poor English writing skill. Wish i could have enough skill. . . Dont take it other way.

  27. No worries gladiator. I understand.

    And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is precisely how we can have good people that call themselves Muslims and continue to believe and attempt to spread the belief that Islam=Peace. It’s because they simply haven’t taken the time to look at it and understand it themselves. I understand how people can get lost in flowery speech that attempts to cover up the ugliness even if I, myself cannot. I’m telling you this nose of mine is remarkable when it comes to picking out shit. Even in a bed of beautiful, fragrant flowers I just can’t seem to be able to get past those few piles of shit. It just ruins the whole thing for me.

  28. OR perhaps because they aren’t fluent enough in English to explain how THEY understand it. Exactly as they explained. Maybe they understand EXACTLY what they think and why.

  29. Ok Sandy, you have a good grasp of English AND you are a Muslim. How would YOU explain what ‘except in piety’ means?

  30. Lynn, how could you NOT know what that means? It should be pretty clear to you, but, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. It has to do with racism, prejudice and arrogance.
    A muslim should not view himself as better than another muslim nor have an ounce of jealousy towards him, except in piety. Envy is not allowed in Islam, except if you were to be jealous of the one that abstains from all kinds of sins, performs righteous deeds that Allah commands and fears & loves Allah. A “pious” person. Makes sense that you would want to reach a certain level of piety if you were a committed muslim, not just a name-only muslim.
    What Islam permits in contrast to Hasad (destructive jealousy) is Ghibtah (envy that is free from malice), which means neither loving the loss of the blessing nor hating for it to remain with the person, but desiring the same for oneself without the removal of the blessing from others.
    This is also the beauty of the Hajj. All the men are dressed identically and there is no room for pretense there. Your financial background isn’t evident. You are ALL seen as the EQUALS you really are in the sight of Allah and Allah knows what is in the heart.

  31. @Lynn
    There is no reason I would enter this conversation with you, but trying to rope me in is a nice attempt at diverting things from your rude behavior. You have just passed a very unflattering judgement on Gladiator who very nicely came here to tell his story. And when he couldn’t answer your question, the way you wanted him to -you had no qualms holding him up as an example of someone who hasn’t bothered to self reflect- and how that leads them to believe ugly things. My purpose was to defend him, not satisfy your need to have everyone address issues the way you think they need to be addressed.

    Your unfounded belief, that lack of an answer you deem sufficient, somehow entitles you to be free to make whatever judgements on a person you like- does not make you someone I want to explain anything to. I don’t think your stupid. If you wanted to, you could research this yourself and find more than one explanation. But you don’t want to. And I really don’t care- because even if I did your work for you- you’d just explain how I was wrong anyway.

  32. robincks…”A muslim should not view himself as better than another muslim …”

    I hope you accidently left out “and towards non muslims” otherwise you just laid bare the basis of what is wrong with Islam/muslims today…the belief that their behavior towards other muslims is all that really matters in their religion.

    Anonymous Saudi…OMG…you might be right…Im so damn critical of arabs and islam. Sorry…cant let stuff like that slide when it causes so much grief in the islamic/muslim world for nonmuslims.

  33. @ lynn, dear, did you read the whole post? Have you noticed my grammatical and spelling mistakes? Do you have a working mind? even I begged your pardon and you are still pointing you nose at me? There is a proverb in my country, ” Dont ever try to make man understand when he is not adult enough or he is not willing to understand”
    Did you check your knowledg twice before you entering or creating this argument with your narrow vision?
    Do you even know what the “piety” is? Are not you far from having ability of understanding people and respect their own religion? do you have any knowledg about what the Islam means? Just read a few topic and have been wandering in some Islam hater forum you thing you got enough knowledg about? Be a man and respect other religion as we true muslim used to respect. Before you hate something try to gather enough knowledg and Specially be in manner when some one beg your pardon for being unable or would you like to learn manner from a muslim? Am open 24 for any one who is not a hater but a seeker of knowledg and truth.
    Oh I sorry to mention, Saudi Arabia and Islam is two different things. As America and Christinaty are differents. They all have differents definitions. One is a country where cultural activties is more important than Islam. And other is a religion which I accepted by my heart and soul . The one is ruled by a royal family and the other is a life style which prescribed by the Mighty. Dear brother lynn IS there anything else that I may help out ya?
    Oh another thing buddy please read the Hadith below it will clear what we True muslim taught in our childhood that how to behave with the people from other states and religion. Wish you could ever learn this and take this in your heart while pointing your beautiful nose.

    “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Sunnan Abu Dawud)”

    ( N:B: i will open my english blog soon. And lynn will be always welcomed. Lynn would you be my English instructor please? Am inneed and A friend in need is a friend in deed lol)

  34. @Robin and Sandy – Seriously? You think that I don’t know what it means? I KNOW what it means. It means a Muslim is better than an atheist ANY day! What I want to know is how a MUSLIM can say that there is no racism in Islam EVERYONE is the same. That is the question that I keep trying to get answered but no one can answer it. They just want to accuse me of being an ignorant islamophobe or that I learned about Islam from the Jihadists or Fox News. THAT isn’t an insult?

    Gladiator, I am sorry if you thought that I was pointing out any errors in your grammar or spelling. I’m not sure what gave you that idea but I would never do that. I am impressed with your skill with the English language. I would not be able to converse with you in your language so good for you that you can converse in my language.

    Anyway…let’s get back to the original question

    ‘@Gladiator – ‘But please dear readers dont be racist. A man is man no matter he is an arab or non arab, a muslim or non muslim. Treat us well. Be a friend not a master.”
    That sounds great BUT you’d already quoted your prophet who said:
    ‘There is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab, nor between a black man and a red man, except in piety”
    So, looks like there IS a difference between a Muslim and a non Muslim, if you want to follow your prophet, that is. I guess you should just be thankful that at least you are a Muslim so that’s one less thing to discriminate against you for.’

    I truly don’t think that it takes great language skill to tell me what the word EXCEPT means to you. Do you not agree with your prophet that a Muslim is better than a non-Muslim? Can you not agree with your prophet and still be considered a Muslim?

  35. I am convinced you don’t know what it means.

  36. ex·cept1    [ik-sept] Show IPA
    preposition
    1.with the exclusion of; excluding; save; but: They were all there except me.

    That’s what I thought it meant. 😉

  37. Yes, coolred, I realized the mistake after I posted. Thank Allah YOU were here to point it out, right?

  38. AGAIN, Lynn: You are confusing Islam with Muslims!

  39. hello Lynn dear, I wrote a huge comment erlier but it got deleted while posting 😦

    ” They just want to accuse me of being an ignorant islamophobe or that I learned about Islam from the Jihadists or Fox News. THAT isn’t an insult?”
    dear buddy, if anyonne read the whole blog he would find that you mostly COMMENTED on THOSE ARTICLES where you drove those arguments against Islam, Middle East. So it dose not required an Extra Ordinary mind to understand your motto, point of view or the sorces from where you gathered your Islamic Knowledg.
    Well its your right to ask us about Islam and we should explain those things.
    But there are some people will never accept those. I cant remember a verse of Qu’ran which says like this, No matter how much you try to explain them the truth they will never understand this and will bring an arguments. ( there could be some mistake by me please correct me any one)
    by the by i would try with my very simple weak english.
    We can start this way brother Lynn,

    its better to have knowledge than living without that.
    Its better to be wise than living life unwise.
    Its better to follow any religion than being an Atheist.
    And Islam is not only a religion but also a proper life style. In which you found everything. We feel “proud” for being is Islam. But our “proudness” never cross the limit for it is limited by Holy Order. So proud is not appropriate word for us. But I had to use this for my lil English knowledg. ( check out the article, in my last comment there was a Hadith regarding Proudness).
    We worship one and only Allah neither Muhammad (PBUH) nor his ancestor. But Prophet (PBUH) is a man he a perfect man to be follow and to beloved by our True Muslim. He is the last Messenger of Allah and most beloved man by Allah also.
    When I grew up, i thought my self how a man could bring the scintific laws could bring the true nature of sea and solar system could bring some very important information of Big Bang and some very important history line! When he was not educated he an illitaret person and never went out side of Makkah ( except a business tour with his auncle toward Syria) and never could speak any other language except Arabic! It was not possible if there was not any Heavenly relation. And was not possible to reveal those verses if there was not any God.

    Now come to the point :
    your question was about ” except in piety” and you were mentioning that we True Muslim do differ between Muslim and non Muslim. We dont pay their rights in our Muslim countries e.g. Saudi Arabia .Because we believe ” except in piety” theory. ( to be continued)

  40. “Yes, coolred, I realized the mistake after I posted. Thank Allah YOU were here to point it out, right?”

    Don’t worry…I got your back. 😉

  41. well buddy, their was a resion behind the creation of human kind, to Worship Allah, But Allah Dose not need our prayers and warships, we man kind should worship the Almighty for our own goods. We are needy. He the Superior One sent many messengers e.g. Muhammad (PBUH), Jesus (PBUH), MOses ( PBUH) and revealed a numbers of Holy Books e.g. Quran, Bible, Tohrah. But previous books and religions was spoiled by the followers of those religeion they changed the Holy Laws for the sake of their own.

    And Quran was revealed as a final version of Bible and Toarah. Allah Almighty ordered us worship Him in the way mentioned in Quran. Islam is prescribed for all the citizen of world. And who got the message, must accept the life style. We are on the path we have ordered so Allah him self loves us and will reward us with goods. That why the part ” except in piety” came. And for your kind information its not a theory it self.

    As i mentioned above we must prey and worship in the way we ordered and as the way Prophet (PBUH) did. Quran teaches us to be kind with non Muslim, leave in peace with them. And never be arrogant and rude. so Messanger (PBUH) reflected the Holy Order in his earthly life and also said us to do so. Wanna see some? Here you go buddy..

    ** Narrated Abu Huraira: A Bedouin stood up and started making water in the mosque. The people caught him but the Prophet ordered them to leave him and to pour a bucket or a tumbler of water over the place where he had passed the urine. The Prophet then said, “You have been sent to make things easy and not to make them difficult.” (Bukhari Book #4, Hadith #219) ( though it is not sure, the beduoin was a muslim or non muslim)

    **Narrated ‘Abdur Rahman bin Abi Laila: Sahl bin Hunaif and Qais bin Sad were sitting in the city of Al-Qadisiya. A funeral procession passed in front of them and they stood up. They were told that funeral procession was of one of the inhabitants of the land i.e. of a non-believer, under the protection of Muslims. They said, “A funeral procession passed in front of the Prophet and he stood up. When he was told that it was the coffin of a jew, he said, “Is it not a living being (soul)?” (Bukhari Book #23, Hadith #399)

    ** Abu huraira reported it was said to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him): Invoke curse upon the polytheists, whereupon he said: I have not been sent as the invoker of curse, but” I have been sent as mercy.” (Muslim Book #032, Hadith #6284)

    **Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said, “On the day of Hudaybiyyah, eighty armed men from Makkah went down the valley coming from Mount At-Tan’im to ambush the Messen- ger of Allah . The Messenger invoked Allah against them, and they were taken prisoners.” ‘Affan added, “The Messenger pardoned them, and this Ayah was later on revealed,

    (And He it is Who has withheld their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makkah, after He had made you victors over them.)” Muslim, Abu Dawud in his Sunan and At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa’i, in the Tafsir section of their Sunan, collected this Hadith.[Tafsir Ibn Katheer under the ayah 24 of Surah al-Fath]

    **Prophet peace be upon him said on the conquest of Makkah
    “O you people of Quraish! What do you think of the treatment that I am about to accord to you?”
    They replied: “O noble brother and son of noble brother! We expect nothing but goodness from you.”
    Upon this he said: “I speak to you in the same words as Yusuf (the Prophet Joseph) spoke unto his brothers: He said: “No reproach on you this day,” [Al-Qur’an 12:92] go your way, for you are freed ones.” [Sealed nectar,Preparations for the Attack on Makkah, and the Prophet’s Attempt at imposing a News Black-out]

    **A group of Jews asked permission to visit the Prophet (and when they were admitted) they said, “As-Samu ‘Alaika (Death be upon you).” I said (to them), “But death and the curse of Allah be upon you!” The Prophet said, “O ‘Aisha! Allah is kind and lenient and likes that one should be kind and lenient in all matters.” I said, “Haven’t you heard what they said?” He said, “I said (to them), ‘Wa ‘Alaikum (and upon you).(Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 61)

    **Allah says:
    they give food, inspite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the Miskeen (the poor), the orphan, and the captive’ [al-Insaan 76:8].
    .
    Ibn Katheer Commented:
    ” Ibn ‘Abbas said, “At that time (when this Ayah was revealed) their (the Muslims’) captives were idolators.” Proof for this is that on the day of Badr the Messenger of Allah commanded his Companions to treat the captives respectfully. They (the Companions) would give them preference over themselves when eating their meals. ‘Ikrimah said, “They (captives) are the slaves.” Ibn Jarir preferred this opinion since the Ayah generally refers to both the Muslim and the idolators. Sa’id bin Jubayr, ‘Ata’, Al-Hasan and Qatadah all made similar statements. The Messenger of Allah advised treating servants well in more than one Hadith.

    ** Asmaa’ bint Abi Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “My mother came to me when she was still a mushrikah – at the time when there was a peace treaty between Quraysh and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – accompanied by her father. I consulted the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), saying, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, my mother has come to me and she is asking for help. Should I uphold the ties of kinship with her?’ He said, ‘Yes, uphold the ties of kinship with her.’ (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 2946).

  42. @Robin -‘AGAIN, Lynn: You are confusing Islam with Muslims!’

    Again? Please explain where I confused Islam with Muslims. That does sound cute and smart to say though, doesn’t it?

    @Gladiator, first off. I should probably let you know that I am not a ‘brother’ but a ‘sister’. Well, more like a ‘mother’ to you since I have a child your age. A MUSLIM child, as a matter of fact. 😉 So I really don’t need any lessons on Islam. I’ve read the Quran and I’ve studied Islam a LOT so there is not a whole lot you can teach me about it but I do understand and appreciate your attempt.

    The ONLY question I am asking you is how you can say, that ALL men are equal when you yourself quote your prophet in saying all are equal EXCEPT in piety. So I said:

    ‘So, looks like there IS a difference between a Muslim and a non Muslim, if you want to follow your prophet, that is.’

    You have not proven me wrong but rather reinforced what I said when you said ‘Its better to follow any religion than being an Atheist.’

    I KNOW that there are a lot of flowery talk about ‘peace’ etc. but that can NEVER, as far as I’m concerned, make up for the very CLEAR parts of your religion that tell you that non-Muslim = LESS than a Muslim. And that is fine, your religion is what it is and you are welcome to follow it as long as you want to. BUT you should not go around trying to pass false info about it. All men are NOT equal in your religion so don’t say that they are. That was my point.

  43. Lynn, you really are quite exasperating! Like you said, …”as far as YOU are concerned…” So just because it’s as far as YOU are concerned, WE are supposed to be convinced?!

    Just one point: yes, it is CLEAR that in Islam, “non-muslim = LESS than a muslim” by pure definition of MUSLIM. If indeed you did study, then you must have been absent the day they explained that very basic doctrine. “All men are NOT equal in your religion..” due to the different levels of ihsaan. Key words are IN THE RELIGION, not out on the street, or in KSA, or however you want to twist it. IN THE RELIGION, as it was perfected, is where it counts.

  44. @Robin – ‘Lynn, you really are quite exasperating!’

    Thank you very much. I DO appreciate my efforts being acknowledged. 😉

    ‘Just one point: yes, it is CLEAR that in Islam, “non-muslim = LESS than a muslim” by pure definition of MUSLIM.’

    So then, what are you trying to argue about? Do you want to talk about dhimmitude to help me get a better understanding of the way that Muslims are supposed to feel about non-Muslims?

  45. Lynn, why do I answer you?

    But, NO, I do not wish to discuss dhimmitude for you to get a better understanding. All I will say is that muslims are suppose to respect and tolerate non-muslims.

  46. @ lynn, sigh! Will you ever understand ? Well you did your study very well, got alot of information. But you MESSED UP all of those.
    did you read the Hadith I mentioned? By the way. Think like this way, there are two man whom are using computers as their Service Provider served a Exact Manual book which is Updated with new technologies and information based upon previous Manual Books.
    Now one of them using the Manual and getting the benefits the Computer can provide while he is On The Right Path. And the another one did not even try to understand the Book when he is totally unknown about basic computer, he is getting nothing of those benefits.
    Now get to the point, if now for addressing those computer users, and if we going to mentioning their capacity, we must use the word “better” before the better on because he followed the instructed path. But we will never underestimate the other user.
    Got the point?

  47. I DO get it, y’all are the ones not getting it.

    Robin, remember when you told me ’AGAIN, Lynn: You are confusing Islam with Muslims!’

    I think it is y’all that are doing that.

    Islam tells you, in many places, to be good to non-Muslims and perhaps most Muslims ARE, BUT the heart of ISLAM is about Muslims being better than non-Muslims so be the BEST Muslim you can be and you will be even better than ALL.

    Yes, Gladiator, I understand what you are trying to get at with the computer and manual story but I’m sorry. The problem is that you are presuming that ‘he is totally unknown about basic computer’. You forget about the people who are born with instincts and never need to be ‘taught’ anything. Have you ever seen small children playing piano without ever having taken a lesson? AMAZING!!

    So, my point is, if the goal is to be a good person, truly respectful and accepting of ALL fellow human beings the ONLY way to get there is by NOT following any manuals. The reason being that if I were to follow Islam’s manual I will be FORCED to not accept some people as equal to myself by the mere fact that they are not Muslim, or because they are men, or because they don’t follow the brand of Islam that I do. You get my point, right?

    I can respect that you are Muslim and you have a right to believe whatever you want. Just don’t try to spread false info about equality, that’s all I’m saying.

  48. Lynn, just JOIN US and put yourself out of your misery:) Imagine how happy your daughter would be! LOL

  49. OMG that would be the very WORST thing that could happen to her! THEN what excuse would she have to hate us? lmao!!

  50. i got a headche now! lol

  51. Yes, gladiator, I can understand that, you have to untwist a lot of things in your head to get to the truth and that CAN cause severe headache. It’ll go away eventually. Mine did 🙂 Well, I guess it didn’t really go away it just moved to my butt!! LOL

  52. This is unbelievable. If I were talking to a bunch of Girl Scouts- and told them that none of them was better than another because of skin colour or money or athletic ability- and that there was no difference between them EXCEPT in following the Girl Scout law- it wouldn’t in any way reflect on non-Girl Scouts. And yes, a Girl Scout is a better Girl Scout than someone who is not a Girl Scout. So what!?

  53. lolzzzz lynn My “mind” will go and ooooon.

    Sandy, yup so what!

  54. lolz Todays moral of the argument is, argument can improves your language skill! 😀

  55. Gladiator, you were doing fine but then you just had to go theological on us. Blame it on Lynn, or whatver.

    A few simple questions, Gladiator:
    1. Do you understand that there are many many verses in the Quran, Sira and Hadith that are offensive to non-Muslims?

    2. Why do Muslims always and only quote verses that they like, pretending that the hateful violent verses are not there? (well, exdept for the human nature thing….) I see you are very selective about your quotes above.

    Do you think that I cant find as many or more verses that tell us you that your prophet attacked non-Muslims dozens of times, murdered, looted, enslaved men women and children, tortured, burnt crops and orchards, took lands and imposed inhuman conditions on survivors, raped captives not to mention at least one wife, beat his child-wife, let his men murder a nursing mother and split open a pregnant woman for offending him, shrugged away the death of a non-Muslim woman in battle, saying “They are of them” and so on?

    Why only the nice verses? What does it say about a people that cannot be honest about what their own writings say?

    3. Why should any non-Muslim believe anything a Muslim says given the ill treatment, lack of liberties and human rights that is constant in all Islamic societies?

    I am surprised that you, from Bangladesh, would be so blind to the hate and violence Muslims do to each other and non-Muslims. I doubt that you remember 1971 but I do.

    Lynn is right. There is no evidence that Muslims consider non-Muslims to be equals or deserving of respect. In fact, the most common theme in the Quran is that unbelievers are deceitful, evil, wicked people that cannot be trusted. But then again, we are, according to your god, lower than animals.

    Gladiator. I consider you smart and dedicated, but you really need to open your eyes., If you want to play ‘quote a verse’ well then it goes both ways. You might ignore those verses you don’t like, that don’t fit your image of Islam, but they are there and they cause much pain and suffering, to both Muslims and non-Muslims. If Muslims will not consider this problem well then it is hopeless. It is..

  56. ‘And yes, a Girl Scout is a better Girl Scout than someone who is not a Girl Scout.’

    Sure, I get ya. But the Girl Scouts already know that they are better than girls that AREN’T Girl Scouts. right? Because ALL Muslims know, from reading their Quran (not just this one instance), that a Muslim is better than a non-Muslim. We just can’t get around that and I wish Muslims would just admit it rather than try to deny it.

    @Gladiator – SEE?! And some people say there is nothing to be gained by arguing. 🙂 What do THEY know? LOL

  57. @Jay -‘Blame it on Lynn, or whatver.’

    Yep blame it on Lynn, she’s an easy target. Thanks JAY!! 😉

  58. Wrong again. Faith may be better than no faith. And a particular doctrine may be better than another. But that says nothing about the followers or practicers of such. However, if you are determined to believe you are less than a Muslim, you are certainly free to do so 🙂

  59. ‘But that says nothing about the followers or practicers of such’

    LOL Sandy. Jay tell Sandy what the Quran says about me, the stubborn disbeliever and why Muslims are advised not to befriend me.

    Sandy, I don’t believe that I am less than a Muslim because I don’t believe what the Quran says. But there is NO way that a Muslim who is following his deen properly would consider me equal to him. Yes, he has to tolerate me and be kind to me because I could be a Muslim some day but until then I remain a stubborn disbeliever and I am pretty sure that there is nothing lower. But I’m cool with that 😉

  60. Lynn, part of our faith is that only Allah can judge. You may have very good reasons not to believe. I certainly cannot judge why anyone believes what they do- the wrong is in “rejecting” your creator. You have to be believing before you reject. And only a creator could know that as well. So as far as I am concerned a Muslim is perfectly capable of following their deen and considering all sorts of persons as equal.

  61. Oh, I could have sworn that I just had to have ‘received’ the message and still rejected it. Well, that’s nice that you take it that way. Unfortunately I think you are in the minority among your brothers/sisters in faith.

  62. ” I certainly cannot judge why anyone believes what they do- the wrong is in “rejecting” your creator.”

    Sandy…this is not for you in particular…anyone who wants to can answer.

    But here is where I have an issue…All the faiths are monotheistic and supposedly God “improved” on the faith each time,right? (for arguments sake…) BUT did not change THE God to worship only the particulars of HOW to do that. God is still the same…Why would Muslims NOT consider others equal to them? If everyone is worshiping the same God what does it matter HOW one chooses to do so? We don’t expect all our kids to be exactly alike and yet a parent loves them all equally. Why can’t God love each one equally and if it is good enough for HIM why shouldn’t it be good enough for Muslims?

  63. Very good point, Oby!

  64. First, all the faiths aren’t monotheistic. But the Abrahamic faiths are, so I’m guessing that’s what you’re asking about. Humanity changed and so some of the instruction changed- also Muslims believe that some of particulars became altered away from how it should be.

    Many people of all faiths -or lack thereof consider others as not equal to them. They think they have “the truth” and that having “the truth” makes them better. This happens with a certain percentage of ALL faith groups. I don’t know why having “the truth” makes anyone better than anyone else. I assume God can love equally or not as he chooses. And hopefully that’s good enough for everyone. But I can tell you right now I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told off by Muslims, Atheists and mostly Christians because of how wrong I am about that. They’re sure they’re loved more (except the Atheists who are sure they are smarter than me).

  65. @Lynn,
    I may currently be in the minority- it certainly feels like it where I live at times, yet many of my friends believe similarly. I guess I prefer to think I’m on the cutting edge of the change to come!

  66. ‘I guess I prefer to think I’m on the cutting edge of the change to come!’

    That’s nice to hear. Good luck getting the powers that be to change the words of the Quran so your changes can stick.

  67. @Gladiator, I love the interview and I’m very touched and inspired by your positive attitude, even in the face of hardship. Thank you for shedding light on this subject. You’ve become a wonderful friend and brother to me and I accept you and respect you no matter where you are from or how much money is in your pocket..
    @Lynn, you are exhausting. Why is it that you always have to stir the pot on here? Couldn’t your time and energy be used elsewhere for something more constructive?

  68. Undertheabaya, forgive Lynn. She really is just fighting her soul’s NEED for Islam. She tries so hard, doesn’t she? Allah hadeeha.

  69. Why is “faith” better than no faith? A quick look at history will tell the average person of nonfaith that it is a dangerous world we live in…a world that is dominated by 3 religions with copious amounts of those follow what they believe to be the Right and Only faith acceptable to god. Faith may be a good decider of piety or equality or merit or worth to some…but for those of us who do not lay our hopes and dreams on a fabled sky daddy…faith is a dangerous and deceptive tool the faithful use against us time and again.

    And when a Muslim says…the Quran tells us we are SUPPOSED to treat nonmuslims well”…I wonder…if it did not tell you that you are SUPPOSED to treat them well…would you? Does god need to tell you how to treat others, especially those who dont follow your faith? Isnt that a common characteristic most people are born with…treat everyone well? If god needs to explain how to do that, despite your religion, than that is a telling point of your religious beliefs. IMO

  70. @Undertheabaya – ‘Couldn’t your time and energy be used elsewhere for something more constructive?’

    There is nothing more constructive than correcting someone when they are being misleading (either from ignorance or malice). Which is all I try to do. You can call it stirring the pot if you wish. But I like to make sure that pot stays well stirred so that the you don’t end up with a pot of useless burned shit being fed to innocent people.

    Fortunately, and I think we can thank Islam itself. I have all the time in the world and I have nothing better to do with it than make sure that untruths are not being spread.

    Thank you for your question.

  71. Sandy, Lynn is evil. What the Quran says about her ilk is nothing compared to the naked truth of lynnian reality. She is evil evil evil, I say, a ghoul of malevolence and decadence. And, to make matters worse, if possible, although that prospect defies mere human imagination, Lynn probably can’t cook, doesn’t appreciate the art of Lady Gaga, votes Republican, eats red meat, hates puppies and kittens, loves politicians and bankers, has no teeth and doesn’t recycle. Lynn, did I do ok?

  72. And she’s blonde, too!

  73. LOL Jay! I have been called ‘Evil Lynn’ before. I believe it was a character in He-Man or something.

    I’ve tried to be a ghoul of malevolence but it never quite worked for me. Decadence comes much easier though. 😉

    JAY! You could call me Satan herself and it wouldn’t be as much an insult as the insinuation that I would EVER vote Republican!! Take it BACK!!

  74. The Quran tells us Muslims are SUPPOSED to treat nonmuslims well… A good Muslim is supposed to consider all sorts of persons as equal.

    This is what really gets me: Muslims always making statements that have no basis in their scriptures. I have seen this a hundred times, a Muslim declaring that Islam says what that Muslims wants it to say or be, without regard to what it actually says or is. Talk about denial. Makes me wonder: Do Muslims actually read the Quran? Do they have some sort of ‘see no evil’ filter-glasses that magically remove half the text or change the words?

    Just for the record, would a Muslim kindly provide a quote from the Quran that says that Muslims are to treat infidels well or as equals.

    Note that, for the record, “not to attack them under certain conditions” does not qualify as ‘well’. I can find plenty of verses that tell Muslims to be harsh, to not be friends, to not trust them and even to attack them, but I must have missed the ‘be nice’ verses. Must have been those written on the leaves that Aisha’s goat ate, if you know the story.

  75. @Jay -‘This is what really gets me: Muslims always making statements that have no basis in their scriptures.’

    I will also correct NON-Muslims if and when they do the same thing re:Islam/Muslims.

  76. Evil Lynn was cool

    The Abrahamic religions all teach their subjects that they are ”the chosen ones” and better than everybody else. Making looking down on ”non-believers” the default position.
    The bible and quran both encourage their ”chosen ones” to kill anybody who thinks differently. Luckily most people are too far advanced morally to follow such evil commands, but if they are not orally advanced, and if they do follow their ”holy” books… well… you get stuff like 9-11 happening.

  77. jay kactuz, hi, sorry i for being late.

    1. Do you understand that there are many many verses in the Quran, Sira and Hadith that are offensive to non-Muslims?

    Did the undestand the background of those verses? At the middle of a Sura you found ” and kill them for the sake of Allah” and you thought this is all?? But if you would scroll up you would see, ” Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger () to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.”

    2. Why do Muslims always and only quote verses that they like, pretending that the hateful violent verses are not there? (well, exdept for the human nature thing….) I see you are very selective about your quotes above.

    My dear friend, it all was about ” universal brotherhood or a muslim and a non muslim relationship” which is misunderstood by many people and that was the main topic.
    Now if you put some “hateful violent verses” I would definitely write about this. I will try my best to make their background clear with out refusing and pretending them.

    3. Why should any non-Muslim believe anything a Muslim says given the ill treatment, lack of liberties and human rights that is constant in all Islamic societies?

    No you should not believe before you realise them, understand them and research them.
    And for the human rights… Our so called Muslim rulers are mad for their powers, wealth and some are having illegal relation with woman. They are blind they dont want to give the rights to their citizens. At the time of Prophet (PBUH) women were able to take a part in war, to contribute in social work and also could do business. Yup they were able to do everything after take care of their modesty. And when our Prophet (PBUH) was only 17 he gathered a group of teen agers to make people understand that children, women, non military people should not be killed or injured in the war . Even The teen age group stopped the war of forbidden month By only made those tribal heads promised that they wont break any Human Rights. Later as we know UN excepted those points which was first introduced by teen age Muhammad (PBUH), sad but true our UN failed to stop war and to make World Leaders promised while They are killing innocent people while PROTECTING our world from TERRORISM and keeping the ROAD CLEAR for Israel. Now a days I am confused of Human Rights.

    “I am surprised that you, from Bangladesh, would be so blind to the hate and violence Muslims do to each other and non-Muslims. I doubt that you remember 1971 but I do. ”

    oh sorry?? U forgot that our Indian Sub continent once ruled by British and at that time they behaved as our master and kill our innocent people, forced our farmers to cultivate Neeel? Harassed our Sisters, raped them? They cut those artists fingers who were famous for making Moslin saree the only purpose was that destroy our arts and our promising growth of foreign business. So should we hate British now? Should we hate catholics ??
    Remember that was a war for freedom for our rights and our land. The war was between to country not between religions. They were injustice about their citizens they failed to assured Human Rights as British was. Now I Believe in globalization, foreign business and relationship. I respect British as I respect Pakistanis. Fool are those who keep anger in their heart and never think about combined business and treaty and Brotherhood. For me past is past think for the future .

    “we are, according to your god, lower than animals”
    if you were that i would never attend in the argument.

  78. @ undertheabaya, hey sis, thank you so much 🙂

  79. When it is said to them: “Believe as the others believe:” They say: “Shall we believe as the fools believe?” Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

    Surah Al Baqara:)

  80. “Infidels” is NOT in the Quran.

  81. VERY good effort, Gladiator, but, there comes a time when you just have to leave the “disbelievers” to their disbelief, you know? Some people are ONLY here to challenge and they also troll other blogs and websites with their Islamophobia. They aren’t really looking for explanations because in their mind, THEY are right, no matter what we say.
    Let’s move on, shall we?:) I am outta here.
    Maashallah alaik!

  82. ‘Some people are ONLY here to challenge and they also troll other blogs and websites with their Islamophobia.’

    Who is that that you are making assumptions and accusations about? Can you back up your claims? Is that the behavior that your prophet taught you? I didn’t THINK so!

  83. woooooooooow!!!
    The day of publishing my interview it got only 4 replies after 30 hours. But when you started the argument its ended up (!) over 70 comments!! All the readers are taking their time to comment against Islam no one even care for the main article which was Carol’s main purpose! One will realise Islamophobia’s true faces after analyse the whole situation… I saw the other readers were commenting on other blogs when my interview posted. But they did not comment on it before it turned into an Islamic argument. What dose it prove?
    Ok brothers and sisters we may off for now after the long argument with our own believes we all are right on our side .
    🙂
    yawnzzzzz

  84. Gladiator that’s exactly what I was trying to say also before this turned into another argument. The point of the post and the message you are sending has been forgotten and people have started to debate irrelevant issues which could well be discussed on the debate page.

    Maybe AB should interview Lynn so she could get all this expert advice out of her system and stop high-jacking all the discussions?
    Just joking Lynn 🙂

  85. Hey…I’m game to interview Lynn if she is!

  86. Being critical of a religions precepts is NOT a “phobe” as in Islamaphobe. Thats the chicken shit way out of explaining why your religion says what it says. Just answer with something that makes sense (to everyone not just you because if it is from GOD then it has to make sense and be just because god is never senseless or unjust…is he?). Asking you to answer and back up your faith is wanting clarification on why your god makes you believe this that or the other…the fact that we dont agree with it…or hell, even understand why god would instruct you to believe such a thing, means we are incredulous…not trolls or unbelievers. Once again you are making it all about those who do not believe as you do…rather than take a look at your own beliefs and question them. Nice. I see what you did there.

  87. @Gladiator -‘no one even care for the main article which was Carol’s main purpose’

    How could you say that? You are the one that brought in the racism in Saudi Arabia then you made a claim about Islam that I had a different understanding of so I asked you about that (which means, Laylah, that the subject that we have been discussing is NOT irrelevant). I DID ask you about your position there but you didn’t answer THAT question. I asked, are you now making the amount that you were promised when you accepted the job or even the amount that you said you could make in a restaurant?

    @Coolred – ‘Once again you are making it all about those who do not believe as you do…rather than take a look at your own beliefs and question them. Nice. I see what you did there’

    Typical.

    @Laylah – What advice did I give out here? But yeah,
    maybe a ‘Dear Dr. Lynn’ page for those who are wondering where they went wrong in their lives. LOL

  88. Or Evil-Lynn’s Column for Dummies That Don’t Know Better 😀

  89. ‘Or Evil-Lynn’s Column for Dummies That Don’t Know Better’

    Naaaa, that’s too many words for dummies to have to read. Also I would have to put thought into coming up with the subject and that would take too much time away from my true passion which is simply telling people how they are screwing up their lives and what they should do to fix it. 🙂

  90. “I asked, are you now making the amount that you were promised when you accepted the job or even the amount that you said you could make in a restaurant?”
    Lolz
    opss pardon, did not noticed that…. AlhamdAllah now a days its 6 times higher if compare my first yearly income. I’ve a plan to increase it more by the next year… Lol pray for me lynn.

  91. I wish you all the best! How long do you think it will take for you to be able to go back home and get your own shop opened there?

  92. I dont know Lynn. I could not cut my expenses. First of all I have to wait untill my sisters finish 12th, then I’ll look forward for my shop or business. I’ve invested a small amount of money in some fundametally strong company, lets see it can bring for me as our local stock market is unpredictable for some government corruption.

  93. Good luck to you. I just hate to see families having to be broken up just to be able to get by in life. You have an aunt and an uncle there so at least you have some family there. How long have they lived there? Do they have children?

  94. no they are not here anymore. They left saudi in 2009 yeah do do have children. My auncle was here since 1990… A long time.

  95. You said that you ‘purchased your visa’ from your uncle. What does that mean?

  96. Hmmm, my auncle paid government fees of visa processing…. Paid them per month basis.

    In saudi arabia there is another business for saudis and non saudis. Its visa trading business. Government charge only 2500-3000 ryals for a laborer visa. But it would increase up to 25OO level if the visa is an Yemen visa or A Bangladeshi visa. A visa would trade at least 2-3 times. It is the sponsor who will be benefited in two was. He would sale a visa at 2-3 times higher than his “investment” and when the “laborer” will be arrived to WORK under his sponsorship he would pay him a minimum salary or he would allow him to work out side for a monthly fee and when it is time to renew his Iqama sponsor would charge an additional fee if his laborer is a “independent” worker.

    This is the main resion behind up rising rate of crime in foreign workers. If a man pay 6000- 7000 USD for a entry visa as a laborer and if he found that his salary is only 10-20 USD ( yes, you read that right) what would he do? While most of south asian workers come here on debt.
    Though Indian visas are cheaper than Yemeni, Pakistani, Bangladeshi visa..
    But I was lucky, I paid the official fees only and the credit goes to my auncle

  97. I guess I don’t understand how your uncle could do that. I would have thought that your ‘sponsor’ would have had to take care of everything.

    I don’t understand WHY people (who are going to be discriminated and cheated) go to work in Saudi Arabia. Is that the only country that has slaves ooops, I mean that has any work available?

  98. Hmmm, because an uneducated and untrained people can work here easily… Thats why may be…

  99. Gladiator,

    I have found time to get back to you about the issue of how Muslims treat non-Muslims. Thank you for answering my 3 questions, but

    1. All I wanted was a simple yes or no. From your response I assume you say ‘no’, ie, that there are no verses in the Quran that should offend non-Muslims. Since I didn’t mention any specific verse, you found one for me and then said I did not understand the context or read the whole text. Well there are hundreds so I will give you one: Quran 9:111. By the way, even the verse you quotyed offends me. Does a non-Muslim have to have a treaty to not be attacked? What kind of morality is that?
    2. So you say that Muslims don’t ignore some verses or only quote those they like. Just for fun, find a Muslim that uses the verse above or find a Muslim website that quotes Qur’an:9:29 or 8:39 when talking about how peaceful and tolerant Islam is….
    3. When asked about the sorry state of the Muslim world, you seem to say that 1. Muslims aren’t really Muslims and 2. it is all the fault of British who did terrible things. Are you sure it was only the British? Every act you mentioned can also be found in the hadith , done by followers of your prophet, and by most people throughout history. Now what? Is it bad for the Brits or Romans but just fine and dandy for the Sahabi?

    As to the “lower than animals” – this is a common theme in the Quran (8:22, 8:55, 7:179, 98:6, and many others) There are hundreds of verses that denigrate non-Muslims. I asked you to quote me some Quranic verses that say nice things about non-Muslims, but it seems you forgot to list them.

    Well, that is that. The reason I returned to this discussion is because of current events in Egypt. Months ago I said here that the Copts will suffer and die. Well well. G;adiator, rather than try to convince me how tolerant Islam is, perhaps you should explain this to your Muslim brothers in Egypt.

    Robinrcks, leaving the “disbelievers” to their disbelief is just fine, but it would also be nice if Muslims would also stop the hate and violence they practice against each other and non-Muslims. That was my point. Disbelief does not hurt anyone; hate and violence kills. Oh yes, let us not talk about that! I was just fine until My Gladiator turned theologian on me. If anybody wants to use Islam to make a point, he/she had darn well be ready to support an argument with facts or to explain other verses and incidents that contradict those quoted.

    Well, that is that. The reason I returned to this discussion is because of current events in Egypt. Months ago I said here that the Copts will suffer and die. Very well, Gladiator, rather than try to convince me how tolerant Islam is, perhaps you should explain this to your Muslim brothers in Egypt.

    So when are we going to get the dirt on Lynn?

    Gladiator, moving back from the alter of disagreement… I read over your posts about your situation and I still find it rather precarious. You may be fine now but you depend too much on the goodwill of others. The bottom line is that you are in a situation that is improper under Saudi laws. My advice is not to wait 5, 10 or 15 years to find out if your good faith and work will be respected by others. I don’t know exactly how you would do this, but it would be nice to determine this now, not when you are old, grey and decrepit like me.

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