Saudi Arabia: Understanding a Contradiction

Many in Saudi Arabia fear the evil eye.  The practice of sorcery or witchcraft in the Kingdom comes with a death sentence.  In other words there is a belief in sorcery and witchcraft.  One can google and find numerous articles about the evil eye, sorcery and witchcraft in the Kingdom.  It is not uneducated Saudis who hold these beliefs.  These beliefs are held through all strata’s of the society.  Yet, if having a discussion on religion, most Saudis will react against the notion of a trinity – the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  Usually there is no problem with an acknowledgement of the Father and Son but resistance occurs with the Holy Ghost.

I’m not a theologian so I can only explain in my own words.  My understanding is that the Holy Ghost refers to the unseeing yet omnipresence of God.  Wikipedia gives a good explanation of the “Holy Spirit” which is the same as referring to the Holy Ghost.  In fact, according to Wikipedia, the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost  implies the existence of three distinct Holy Persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit being One Eternal Triune God. This doctrine and designation, however, are not shared by all Christians denominations, or the other Abrahamic religions.

This can lead to the questions of does the evil eye really exist?  Are there truly sorcerers in today’s time?  Can someone really be a “witch” and practice witchcraft?  If one answers yes to those questions, then why is it so difficult to accept the concept of a Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?  The existence or presence of angels is not challenged.

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51 Responses

  1. Why is it so difficult to believe other religious people’s nonsense but not our own…simply because we were raised to believe ours.

    Brainwashing isn’t called that for nothing.

  2. perhaps it might do with the fact that witchcraft is considered bad by Saudis and for them a :ghost” of any kind might be seen as something bad or evil. For those who believe in the Holy Trinity it is just the opposite…one facet of God that embodies love, not evil. On the other hand, probably those that believe in the holy trinity would not believe in the evil eye!!! LOL!

  3. Sorcery, evil eye and Ghost are all figment of imaginations and literate people are not less Jahil, this is all because they left Islam long back are interested on luxeries of life , pleasures and carnal gratifications . If they had not left the Rasool e Akram (saawws) alone and had held the rope fastly and would have relied none else but the true Ahlebayt e Rasool (saaws) they would not have gone so astray and had faith in true Islam rather than these wierd belief .There is nothing like Trinity , Only one God supreme , Creator of all and sustainer of All .

  4. Well, this is interesting. I never thought of the Holy Spirit in the context or sorcory… So, it is interesting to see the concept of witchcraft and Holy Ghost in the same comparison.

    I had the distinct privilege of describing the concept of the Holy Spirit to my husband when we first married. Having grown up unorthodox Lutheran, my understanding might be a little different than other Christians. The Holy Spirit is not a spirit/ghost/paranormal body. It is the inspirational aspect of God. It is the characteristic of God that enters a person’s life and inspires them to a life of God (sometimes through visions, dreams, thoughts, events…) It can be the act of God that enters a person and “causes” them to do miraculous things; or odd things like speaking an unknown language, or extreme worship until complete exhaustion (like experienced in the Episcopalian Church).

    In return, my husband had the privilege of describing to me the concept of the evil eye. It was interesting, because he never mentioned “magic” or “witchcraft”. No, it was more of a type of superstition that suspects others of the ability to envy a person and at the same time negatively impacting that which they envy. (like, I envy my neighbor’s new car and the next day he gets in an accident) In fact, it is my understanding that some people are considered to have an “evil eye” and not even mean to while others choose to envy with the intent of destroying the good life of others. Some people even believe themselves to have this ill-character and conscientiously try not to envy others for fearing to ruin what is good in life of others.

    One thing I have learned about being Muslim is that I should recognize that magic/witchcraft/sorcery is real and is forbidden. Some magic can be fun, while other types are obviously meant for evil; but all is haram. Also, I recognize that envy is never a good quality to have (but not sure if I believe others can destroy my good life with their own envy). And, lastly, it is easy for me to recognize what I used to know as “the Holy Spirit” is a beautiful aspect of God and not any more or less important than all of the other aspects of God.

    Just my observations and thoughts. : )

  5. Interesting topic! I was talking to an Arab friend just the other day about the evil eye. We didn’t bring up the Holy Spirit in our discussion so this is an interesting twist.

  6. I really don’t see the connection between Evil Eye and the Holy Ghost, unless one accepts the idea that both are ‘spirits’ – which all religions pretty much do. If jinns are fine, then angels, spirits and demons should have their time in the sun, also. Any way its halloween and soon I will have a bunch of little devils and spirits knocking on my door, so that proves they exist.

    One correction, according to the Quran, the trinity is composed of God the Father, Jesus and Mary. Nice of those Muslims to correct those infidels on the finer points of Christian theology.

  7. Mary?? How does she figure in as one facet of God?

  8. ‘If jinns are fine, then angels, spirits and demons should have their time in the sun, also.’

    That’s what I was going to say.

  9. I have no idea, but the Quran says she is “one of three” that Christians worship as god. Evidently Muslims (including our Z) can’t get their minds around the concept of spirit (unless, of course, it is an islamic one). I am too lazy to look it up but the quote is accurate.

    Oby, you you know the Quran is perfect so stop being picky. We should thank Muslims for correcting this horrible misconception. Can you imagine how embarrassing it must be for Christians to learn that for 2,000 years they got 1/3 of the trinity wrong. oops.

    You know, Z, if you read the Quran your prophet is portrayed basically as a co-god, making decisions and exercising attributes that normally are reserved for a/the divine being. In fact, as I have said before, in cases of contradictions in what the Quran says and any hadith, Muslims will always obey Mohammad. Sorry!

  10. Nice subject. I believe in the trinity. One God but three persons. This is not a good example but water can be liquid, vapor and solid but it is still water. With the LORD it is all at one time. The Holy Spirit is to teach us. He is to put the spot light on Christ. There are angels but there are demons too. 1/3 of heaven fell, where did they go? I think one showed up on Joseph Smiths door step. Since the tale is very similer he might have presented himself to Mohammad. Holy scripture says if anyone (or being) presents a different gospel then the one presented there it is a false gospel.

  11. Praise the Lord.

    My reply grew too lengthy to present here, so I have posted it on my blog:

    http://caraboska.livejournal.com/30988.html

  12. I have been reading this website for so long, but the Muslim bashing is getting a bit too much for me. It’s making me want to read some of these articles less, because I know there are going to be so many derogatory comments.

    For the record, Muslims know the trinity for Christians is their belief in the God, son and holy spirit.

    Just because you read something in the Quran, especially in English, doesn’t mean your understood what it was referring to.

  13. Nadia…

    Thanks for that. I am not familiar with that passage where it refers to the Trinity. Could you give me the chapter/sura? Seriously…not trying to trick you. I am curious how it reads in English (since that is the language I speak)…and if it is in English and not clear (Just supposing) how does one get to a clear understanding?

  14. I don’t equate the trinity as sorcery and I am not quite sure how one would. I have never heard such a thing from another Muslim either.

  15. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)

    O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

    And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur’an 5:116]

  16. their is no place of the Trinity Concept in Islam. Jay, please refer the Sura or the Ayat. In Islam we Do Not worship for anyother creation except Allah. And the phrase Co-God is not correct for the Prophet (PBUH) . He was Just and Only a messener nothing else or more than that. He was a human being, we Do Not worship him or his family. And Essa (PBUH) Jesus also was a messenger nothing more than that.
    ” And whoever invokes besides Allah, any other God, of whom he has no proof, then his reckoning is only with his Lord. surely! Al- Kaferun will not be successful.” ( V. 23:117)
    It is clearly said in Quran we must believe in every messengerswhom were sent to human kind, Musa (PBUH) as you know him as Moses, Essa (PBUH) Jesus, Yusuf (PBUH) Joseph and all. And it is must for Muslim to believe holy books which were previously revealed, Taurat ( Torah) , Injil (Bible) , Quran itself and the all.
    We respect Jesus as we respect Muhammad. But the Trinity theory is not believed by Muslim. There was and is contradiction regarding the Trinity theory in Christian Community also.
    Lets talk about the facts, Jesus never called himself Son of God but he used to call himself the ” Son of Man” ( see Mark 2:3) he did use the phrase ” Son of God” in generally for all! In Matthew 5:9 we read:
    ” Blessed are the peace-makers, for they shall be called the children of God.” see the use of children of God.
    ” That ye may be children of your Father which is in heaven….” ( Matthew 5:45)
    Matthew 14:23: ” And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray” if Jesus was God why did he pray? a man is who pray for the God.
    What dose Quran says about prayers.
    ” O mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allah is the Rich, the worthy of praise.” (V.35:15)
    Matthew 19:16-17
    ” And behold, one came and said into him, ‘ good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? Why callest thou me good? None good but one, God, but if thou wil enter into life, keep the commandments.”
    in Matthew 21:45-46
    ” and when the chief priests and pharisee had heard his arable they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the altitude because they took him for a Prophet.”
    here it is that all those who believed in Jesus during his life time did not believe in him being God or the Son of the God or in the doctrine of trinity. But they believed in him as being prophet only.

  17. @Nadia – ‘Just because you read something in the Quran, especially in English, doesn’t mean your understood what it was referring to.’

    Seriously? Couldn’t you have just corrected what you thought was wrong rather than be generally snarky and accusatory? Isn’t it kind of funny that you contribute to the derogatory comments that you yourself abhor rather than giving your opinion in an educated and grown up manner?

  18. I think there are 2 distict subjects here: The nature of God (one) or (triune) depending on faith, and God’s creation. Angels, sorcery, and evil eye would fall under the latter. I was raised Lutheran, and how I described the concept of holy spirit to muslims was it was like the “ruh” of allah. I think CrossingOver and I see these concepts similarily. 🙂

  19. Nadia@ English is an international language, and people are used to use it to communicate each other internationally. And its not must for learner to learn about islam and read Quran’s arabic version only when it is hard to learn a foreign language. Yeah one should be careful what he is reading is Translated well. When a translation method can change the whole meaning by intentionally or by unintentionally. I can remember a man who read a Bangla version of Quran in Bangladesh and when he got a Bangla transaled Quran in Saudi he found several contradictions. And after researching he himself found that the 2nd is correct! So English translated Quran dose not matter but the how it was translated, what is the translator’s point of view dose the matter. Dont blame English. Lol trying hard to learn it. Sigh! A few i could but long way to go!

  20. now what dose islam says about Christ and Marry, see the Sura Al Imran from 35 to on.
    I will just put the number 45 as it is the most important ayah among rest of all.

    ” when the angels said, ‘O mariyam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad things of a Word [” Be!” and he was! ] from Him, his name will be Messiah Issa ( Jesus), the son of Maryam ( Mary) , held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah. “

  21. I don’t see any connection between the Trinity and other ghosts, spirits and invisible beings like Jinn.

  22. Lynn

    I am a very courteous person in real life,and likewise online as well. Did you know my intention when I wrote those words or would you like to just accuse for the sake of it?

    I was not being snarky in the least, actually, I was making a very sincere point, that when someone reads any book especially in another language they have a high likelihood of not understanding the meaning or of something to be taken more out of context. That was not intended to be derogatory, as I was conciously trying to stay away from your style. I am very much educated. Thanks for your concern! :))

    In any case, sigh my feelings of the bashing continue. Not only of Islam, but of Muslims too.

    Oby the mention of Mary as being a God, quoted above, doesn’t mean that Muslims think she is part of the trinity. It’s just referring to how some sects of Christianity, like the Catholics ask Mary in prayer. And in Islam, we just believe we ask of him and him alone. When you ask of others it takes the right of God and gives it to someone else.

  23. http://www.godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

    Ask of “him” all you want…you are more likely better off asking an actual person though.

  24. I can’t believe I forgot to be opinionated about Jinn! Wait for it…

    Having only the Quran and my Muslim in-laws to rely on, I have never thought of the jinn being tied to witchcraft/evil… Why would I? God only mentions that humans and jinn live among each other but can’t interact. In fact, not is much known about how jinn live and exist. I even remember asking my husband after reading about jinn “Do we know if the jinn have the same holy books as humans?” To which his family lacked the research so no one answered with much more than “we don’t know.” They did tell me that King Solomon was the only one who could interact with the jinn.

    I was honestly shocked to discover that many predominantly Muslim communities attribute horrible things to the jinn! Even heart attacks! I remember reading from an Indonesian blog “When you wake in the middle of the night with the pain of an elephant sitting on your chest it is the jinn sitting on you.”

    Is it just human nature to attribute evilness to things we don’t understand?

    Kristine: That is exactly how I felt about “ruh”. : )

  25. The evil eye is a leftover from paganism and superstition. If I remember right in the west people believed in the evil eye during the middle ages.

    The Trinity has never made any sense to me. Especially after I learned that it wasn’t biblical but decided by a bunch of priest 600 years after the time of Christ. Then again I’m a member of the “cult” of Mormonism so what do I know.

  26. Gladiator,

    How many times a day do you pray? 3 or 5?

    Why do Islamic societies have blasphemy and apostasy laws if there is “No compulsion in religion”? and the Quran is “simple and easy to understand”?

    Simple questions these but they indicate who is really important for Muslims.

    Nadia, nadia, the quranic text is clear. It says (5:116) that Mary is one of three gods – the trinity. True that it doesn’t mean that Muslims believe this, but it does mean that is what the Quran says. You see how Gladiator gets offended when I say that Mohammad is a co-god, but you Muslims think it fine and dandy to tell Christians what they believe. Notice how he only quotes a verse he likes and ignores others that don’t support his position. Note also that Allah often uses the plural form so he/she is a plurality, just like the Jewish Elohim (“hear oh Israel the lord our gods is one god” and “Let us make man in our image”) and the Christian Trinity (or Quadripity if we include Mary).

    By the way, has anybody ever met a Jew that believes that Ezra (Uzair) was the son of Allah? Well that is what the Quran says so next time you meet a jew, please inform him/her of his/her new exciting belief.

    G and N, I am just trying to be funny in an silly way. the point is that I, like the devil, can quote scripture. It is easy and I can find conflicting verses to almost any position you take. As I have said before, words mean nothing, even if you are right and I am wrong about certain texts, this means nothing if you treat people like dirt. I mean if the Quran says it is simple and easy to understand, but Muslims argue that Muslims do bad things because they don’t understand it, well that is calling Allah a lier. So is the Quran simple or not?.

    This is criticism, not bashing. I and many others believe Islamic intolerance, hate, violence and discriomionation – things that basically characterize Muslim societies and behavior – are the product of Islam. That is an opinion. If you think Islam is perfect and Muslims are at least as tolerant and respectful of others as those horrible infidels, then you shouldn’t be offended by words you know are not true.

    The problem is that Muslims cannot, will not be honest about these issues, so any criticism, no matter how valid, become ‘bashing’ and ‘islamophobia’. They want to silence all criticism of them and their religion. This is a self-defense mechanism that protects your feelings but does nothing to end pain and suffering of others. So nothing changes.

    But maybe nothing is more important than a Muslims feeling good about Islam.

  27. In Islam ghosts dont exists rather the belief is in Jinn (roughly translated Jinnie) who co-exist with humans also unlike Christinaity in Islam there are no “fallen Angels” rather Satan was a Jinn and has his own progney who procreate just like humans and they will be held to account on The Day of Judgement just like human beings also magic cannot be performed expect by way of help from the Jinn.
    In Islam Angels have no free will and can only do good as for humans and Jinn they have free will to do good or evil.
    Evil eye is a true reality that exists and the stories of those afflicted are far too numerous to even mention,
    As for the concept of trinity then Islam rejects that totally as it is likening Allah (God) to the creation and is not pure montheisim and Islam is a purley monthesitc religion if one understands that fact it would be easily understood why the trinity is something that cannot be understood by one who worships Allah (God) alone and devotes all acts of worship purely for Allah (God) alone without directing that worship to anyone one or anything else this is the esscence of Islam its foundation and the message of all the Prophets and Messengers single out Allah with all acts of worship.

  28. @Nadia ‘…as I was conciously trying to stay away from your style.’

    I stand by my comment 😉

  29. I am not sure how the concept of holy spirit and the evil eye are connected in any way…
    In my experience, Muslims don’t have a problem with the concept of holy spirit because as mentioned above, we have the concept of ‘ruh’. However, there is a BIG problem with the concept of the Son. it is quite clear in the Qur’an that God has now offspring and to say that he does is an egregious falsehood.

    “in cases of contradictions in what the Quran says and any hadith, Muslims will always obey Mohammad”
    This is not correct. If it contradicts the Qur’an then it is not a true hadith. Hadith are ALWAYS secondary to the Qur’an.

    Kactuz: the verse you cited (but didn’t quote) 5:116, nowhere mentions a trinity, only that some have taken Jesus and his mother Mary as partners to God. It doesn’t say that Mary is part of the trinity that Christians believe.

  30. @Kactuz: “This is a self-defense mechanism that protects your feelings but does nothing to end pain and suffering of others”…
    ..who are the others ure talking about?

  31. 5:116 ” And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.”
    lol Jay, the person as weak as me in English would clearly understand the meaning of the verse you said and I quoted. Please describe where you found trinity believe in this verse.

    “You see how Gladiator gets offended when I say that Mohammad is a co-god, ”
    now look over my comment, “the phrase Co-God is not correct for the Prophet (PBUH) . He was Just and Only a messener nothing else or more than that. He was a human being, we Do Not worship him or his family. And Essa (PBUH) Jesus also was a messenger nothing more than that.”
    is there any word that means I got offended? I was arguing as I think.
    Ok now criticism, I always like criticism as I like poetry. I always prefer criticism as I prefer to get the best things.
    Now what is criticism? The free dictionary dot com says:
    ” a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
    b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
    c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism. ”

    in your above comments I did not found that, “Oby, you you know the Quran is perfect so stop being picky. We should thank Muslims for correcting this horrible misconception. Can you imagine how embarrassing it must be for Christians to learn that for 2,000 years they got 1/3 of the trinity wrong. oops.

    You know, Z, if you read the Quran your prophet is portrayed basically as a co-god, making decisions and exercising attributes that normally are reserved for a/the divine being. In fact, as I have said before, in cases of contradictions in what the Quran says and any hadith, Muslims will always obey Mohammad. Sorry!”
    see ? Criticism? Or Something else? Bashing? Lol by the way Jay I am a very funny guy by born I can understand what is funny and silly way

  32. I don’t get how it’s a contradiction? Are you affirming that it’s a valid belief and that the trinity is just as valid or are you saying the trinity is silly like believing in magic?
    Also, there is a lot of mysticism and spiritualism in Islam that is either over looked or made fun of. Can’t hear the same about Judaism or the Kabala. It’s ok for them to believe in energy and spirits and the mystic side of life but not us?

  33. ‘It’s ok for them to believe in energy and spirits and the mystic side of life but not us?’

    I think the point is the hard condemnation of it when it’s others doing it when they themselves actually do the same type thing. Perhaps hypocrisy is really the word we want to use here?

  34. In The Revelation of Arès our Creator confirms that what His messenger Mohammad said about Jesus not being God is true. He considers the trinity doctrine as something that was made up in order to “stun the weak”, a mask that religion created.
    He encourages us to get rid of all superstition.

  35. Lynn that also doesn’t make sense? You can then also argue that Christian should believe in what we believe and that it’s hypocritical for them not to.

  36. @Mama B, – No, that’s not what I’m saying. No, it’s hypocritical to tell someone that they are wrong to believe in the ‘supernatural’ or ‘holy ghost’ while they themselves believe in something like a jinn.

  37. Ah ok. But the post is a direct comparison between the trinity and believing in the evil eye that’s what I don’t get. I guess the argument didn’t make sense to me. In my own personal opinion each person has the right to believe what they want to as long as they are not hurting anyone. Religion is so much more personal that what we make it and getting into these details is a waste of time. What I believe or what you believe is irrelevant, what’s important is our actions towards the world and others.

  38. @MamaB – Yeah, I don’t quite understand either.

    ‘What I believe or what you believe is irrelevant, what’s important is our actions towards the world and others.’

    Agreed, as long as one’s text does not incite a believer to harm nonbelievers.

  39. Just to clarify:

    Satan (Iblis) is not a jinn. He is an angel. Just like in Christianity. He fell from favor from God because he refused to bow to human creation.

    Maybe that is why so many Muslims think that the jinn are bad! They have been taught (by who?) that Satan in a jinn and his children make up the population of jinn…

    Poor jinn… I hope if they can read this blog, they know that there is at least one human that doesn’t damn them : )

    When you think about it, beleiving in jinn is kind of goofy! But, I am not a hater, I play the game. I like thinking about this parallel universe of God’s creation.

    I wonder if the jinn argue about who’s religion is better and less hypocritical? food for thought.

  40. well… i might have been a bit quick to say with certainty that Satan is not a jinn… I really don’t know that for sure, but I do not believe that Satan is a jinn.

    But let us say he was a jinn: why does that make all jinn somehow more evil? Again, poor jinn. They are really getting the short end of the deal here since they can’t defend themselves…

  41. and did anyone notice that my randomly assigned avitar looks like a little devil bean with string legs? HAHAHAHA

  42. The whole Iblis falling from heaven cause he went against gods wishes is suspect. The very nature of angels is explained again and again in the quran that they couldnt go against gods orders…they were not created with “choice” in the matter. Therefore the idea to tell god no would not even be a possibility…according to the quran..and yet here is one angel doing just that. Angels are against creating men cause men will have choice and abuse it…angels didnt want that choice…yet Iblis seemed to have it. Hmmmmm?

  43. Jinn have free will- like men-to do good or evil. Angels do not. Iblis was a Jinn. Not all Jinn are bad. But Jinn have been directed not to interfere in man’s affairs. So if one is “interacting” with a Jinn- that Jinn is being disobediant to his creator and so is a “bad” Jinn. That is why humans have a negative view of them. The good ones stay away from us.

  44. I realize sometimes I have unusual thoughts and tend to share them on the blog for discussion. This topic has led to some very interesting dialogues.

  45. I have never understood the “Holy Ghost” concept, and I still don’t. Simply put, it just doesn’t make logical sense to me.

    Oddly enough, the concept of “jinn” or “spirits” makes sense to me. Sometimes, though, I believe that some of these “jinn” protect us from harm just like others of them wish harm on us. (Kinda like people, right?)

  46. ‘Oddly enough, the concept of “jinn” or “spirits” makes sense to me’

    Yes, very odd, Strangeone. Can you explain why jinn or spirits make logical sense but ‘holy ghost’ doesn’t? Couldn’t one of those jinn be a ‘holy spirit’ which is either ‘God’ or the ‘spirit’ that God uses to interact with humans ie Gabriel or Jibreel?

  47. lol I wish I had a Zinni (Jinn) … Sigh! o

  48. @galdiator…im sure u wudn’t be saying that if u actually had one 🙂

  49. Lynn,
    I’ve had supernatural experiences of my own that I really don’t feel like sharing on here so I won’t. Suffice it to say, I believe in spirits/jinn. I see Gabriel as one type of spiritual being/lifeform/whatever.

    Why does God need to interact through a spirit if he is God and in all things? It doesn’t make sense. I see God as more of an energy that the universe is made up of that is in all things. I don’t believe the earth was created randomly. Why would such an energy need a “vessel” in which to channel its energy in order to contact its own creation?

  50. Strangeone…your trying to make sense out of something man thought up (god)…we tend to make things far more complicated then they need to be. A Creator would just say “hey…I exist…get over it”…but men have to make it all mysterious and circular in order to give it some sort of legitmacy. Complicated equals true in this case…or something.

  51. Coolred,
    I agree with you that humans tend to over-complicate things.

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