Saudi Arabia: In Memory of Crown Prince Sultan

Crown Prince Sultan will be laid to rest today.  The following videos share portions of his life and his legacy.  May he rest in peace.

 

 

 

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114 Responses

  1. May he rest in Peace and be rewarded with the highest point in Paradise. I think everyone around here will always remember his kind heart and his ever present smile.

  2. Ever since I can remember I’ve always seen him smiling , even ear the ned when was sick and battling with cancer, he was ever ready to bestow smile on whoever he met. May Allah grant him with Jannah.

  3. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/saudi-crown-prince-buried-riyadh-u-delegation-asked-175545679.html

    ‘Among the crowd on hand for the ceremony were the Syrian vice president, Sudanese President Bashir, and Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi–but the United States delegation to Saudi Arabia was not on hand, due to religious strictures governing the burial.’

    Talk amongst yourselves, I think y’all probably know what I’m thinking!

  4. ^^
    No we don’t know what you’re thinking…care to enlighten us..!!

  5. I don’t think it shows Islam in a very good light if there are ‘religious strictures’ barring non-Muslims from showing respect at their funerals. Or is this just a ‘Saudi’ thing? What do you think the Saudi reaction would be if Muslims were banned from attending a state event somewhere?

  6. Cummon Lynn im sure ure not looking into the goodness of islam anyway so no need to make it look that way 😛
    What where the religious strictures? that the non-muslims had to pay their respects a little later…whats the big deal..?
    I don’t know the saudis reaction to being banned from attending a state event..but thats not what happened …non-muslims were not banned..they just had to come a little later.. Im sure the non-muslims didn’t care for the religious parts of the event anyway and vica versa if saudis had to go.

  7. In 2008 I was working at Saudi Arabian Television on a documentary of CP Sultan and his life. I was selected as the “voice” for the English language version. Reading the script taught me so much about CP Sultan and his generosity.

    There is a VAST difference between a Muslim burial and a Christian burial. I remember at my Dad’s funeral my husband felt a bit like a fish out of water for not understanding the process and what was going on.

  8. So, Carol, are you saying that perhaps the non-Muslims weren’t allowed there for their own comfort’s sake? LOL!

    @Bella Vita – ‘What where the religious strictures?’

    I don’t know, that’s what I am asking. Do you know the answer?

    ‘non-muslims were not banned..they just had to come a little later..’

    LOL! You crack me up!! I liken this to the ‘black’ friend that is more than welcome to come celebrate your birthday with you. ‘But, um, could you just come a couple days later, after all the festivities and the respected, (properly colored) people have gone.’

    But that’s just how I see it. I wanted to know how Muslims see it. That is why I asked the question.

  9. @Bella Vita – ‘Cummon Lynn im sure ure not looking into the goodness of islam anyway so no need to make it look that way’

    Huh?

    Do you mean looking FOR the goodness IN Islam? I’m ALWAYS doing that but I keep running into these damned walls! Is that MY fault? Really?

  10. I don’t know the reason they did that. I am aware of non- Muslims attending burials here- and I’ve never heard they shouldn’t. But the hyper conservative like to segregate anything they can , so maybe because it was high profile the were ‘stricter’ whatever that means. But I bet his female family members weren’t there either.

  11. I honestly don’t think the non-muslims wud have wanted to 1..take part in the washing and wrapping of a dead body..2.praying in a mosque as a “muslim” over the body for the (janazat prayer) and 3 attending the burial in which the royal family have the rite to pick and choose who they want coming to their funeral procession i would think.
    ..i dnt think it was rude…knowing the differences in religion maybe the saudis thought it was better to invite non-muslims later as they may have felt un-comfortable being there yet not participating in anything. I think it was a nice gesture actually.

  12. @Bella Vita – ‘I think it was a nice gesture actually’

    LOL! And, of course, you ARE entitled to your opinion. MY opinion is that it is counter productive to world peace to hold a gatherings of world leaders where certain (unclean?) world leaders are not welcome.

  13. I think it was a diplomatically correct political gesture.

  14. Diplomatically correct if the intent is to ensure other world leaders know that they are NOT your ‘brothers’. If I got an invite like that I think you know what kind of gesture I’D give them! LOL

  15. I think it was the best way to handle the situation..I doubt the non-Muslims were offended, they would’ve felt awkward in some situations.

    Lynn I would be curious to hear your opinion on the Saudi graveyards.
    http://imagesofsaudi.blogspot.com/2011/10/ultimate-equality.html

    What do you think of the graves, how simple they are and that all are equal regardless of wealth or status?
    I guess it’s the only place in Saudi-Arabia where everyone is equal..

  16. Laylah, I don’t really have an opinion on the Saudi graveyards. I don’t care one way or another how people are buried or cremated or whatever they choose. Unless of course…are non-Muslims allowed to be buried there? Are non-Muslims allowed to have their own cemeteries or are they allowed to have their funeral service according to their own personal traditions?

    Are non-Muslims not allowed to attend the funeral services of Muslims?
    Can anyone explain what the ‘religious strictures governing the burial’ are? Would I, as a non-Muslim, be welcome at my daughter or grandson’s funeral service?

  17. As a family member you would be shown respect and chances likely one of the elder women would take you under your wing since there is separation. She would explain what is happening and what your expected role should be.

  18. Would the rest of my family be allowed (we are a pretty big family)? Are non-Muslims allowed to attend Muslim funeral services or not? If not, why not?

  19. I would find it a kick in the ass personally considering the US is a strong ally of Saudi and turns a blind eye to it’s human rights violations in favor of a quid pro quo sort of relationship. And why would a nonMuslim feel awkward at a funeral service for muslims…isnt death supposed to be the Great Equalizer..yet here are muslims once again separating themselves and declaring death rites off bounds to nonmuslims.

    I would be interested to hear someones excuse for not allowing me to one of my children’s funerals…and Carol…your role as a grieving mother is established world wide…it is not something muslims have to walk you through or show the way. Wow!!

  20. @lynn, I’m sure they will not stop family members.. especially a mom and don’t worry there’s a big chance you WILL not be around to see your grandson’s funeral 🙂

    Carol – sometimes i ask these same morbid questions and hope and pray i’m gone before F . i don’t want to deal with those complications . atleast me and my kids belong to “harvest our organs and burn us category”

    F is nore complex wants to donates his organs and his body for science and have an islamic funeral .. who knows if that is even possible, My grandfather always says, after you die, you have more important business dealing with the big man 🙂 who cares what they do to your shell…

    I have attended the muslim burial of my SIl and there were plenty of non-muslims, hardly a handful of muslims.

  21. ‘there’s a big chance you WILL not be around to see your grandson’s funeral’

    Yeah, that’s what my dad thought too but there he was…:-(

    So, you are saying that non-Muslims ARE allowed? Then I have to wonder why ‘the United States delegation to Saudi Arabia was not on hand, due to religious strictures governing the burial.’

  22. What if all Muslim leaders were excluded from the burial of a high level US diplomat? Don’t you think THAT would be recognized and seen in an offensive light by Muslims?

    Why would it be improper for a nonmuslim to attend the funeral or burial rites of a Muslim? To me that is crazy. What harm can there be if they attend to offer their respectful goodbyes to the deceased? My wedding was a hindu wedding. I didn’t understand most of it and it was explained to me as I went through but that didn’t prevent me from enjoying it and participating. When my husband dies if I outlive him, I certainly will be the one to carry out his Hindu burial wishes even though I am not Hindu. I hope to help prepare the body. It is the least I can do for him as my last act as his wife.

    This idea that one cannot attend the funeral/burial because they are not the same religion is ludicrous. Unless as Lynn pointed out nonmuslims are not considered good enough…hmmmmm….

  23. It really depends on the wishes of those involved.

    Although if a burial is taking place in Makkah or Medinah then non-Muslims could not attend if it is within the Haram boundaries.

    During my time in Saudi, I would attend “mourning services” with women where women came and paid respects to the female members of the family who lost a loved one. I don’t know of any woman in Saudi who attended a burial service.

  24. our so called islamist scholar did that….. Its not forbidden for a non muslim to attend in funeral…

    @ Lynn, ” Do you mean looking FOR the goodness IN Islam? I’m ALWAYS doing that but I keep running into these damned walls! Is that MY fault? Really?”
    lolzzz sigh!

  25. But it is forbidden for women too…as Carol pointed out…women are not allowed at funeral services. Apprently because we are so emotional..the idea of us crying and carrying on is a slap in the face to god who, in his infinite wisdom …decided the person needed to die now…so who are we to cry and carry on like we don’t agree with that assessment. And yes…that is exactly the explanation I received many many times when I asked about it.

  26. I know that we women are not to be trusted to conduct ourselves properly at a funeral but that isn’t the issue here.

    @Gladiator – ‘our so called islamist scholar did that….. Its not forbidden for a non muslim to attend in funeral…’

    Did what? Forbid the non-Muslim heads of state from the funeral that was NOT in Mecca or Medina? If it is not forbidden then why would they not be invited?

  27. dont know Lynn, Saudi tradition is exeptional. They dose not allow lotta things which are allowed by Islam or they allow lotta things which are not allowed by Islam.
    Me and my Hindu friend Once attended in a muslim funeral in Bangladesh. That was not matter to the Imam.

  28. Do we know of any instance of any Saudis questioning the ‘powers that be’ WHY the non-Muslim world leaders were not welcome to pay their respects when the rest of the ‘world leaders’ were? Naaaaa, THAT would never happen, would it? All I have to say is when the people of Saudi Arabia are scratching their heads wondering why the rest of the world finds it difficult to respect them, they should remember incidents like this one.

  29. I guess some relevant questions would be:
    1) Who would have been the appropriate US representative to attend the burial and is that person male/female?
    2) Where did the burial take place?
    3) What were the “religious strictures governing the burial”? Does it have more to do with someone who is not of the Muslim faith not wanting to attend the burial or does it have more to do with the Islamic burial itself?
    4) Is religion simply an excuse that sounds logical and reasonable when in reality the US representative had other matters to take care of?
    5) Is this in any way, shape, or form a political move done by KSA in order to make it appear to have less ties to the USA?

    The list of questions goes on and on and on….

    I think the article is too vague to make assumptions.

  30. “All I have to say is when the people of Saudi Arabia are scratching their heads wondering why the rest of the world finds it difficult to respect them, they should remember incidents like this one.”
    Hmmm, agreed lynn.

  31. @Strangeone – ‘I think the article is too vague to make assumptions’ I agree, that’s why I was asking questions.The U.S. isn’t the ONLY non-Muslim world leader and it was Vice President Joe Biden (male) that was asked to come on Thursday instead of the day that the ‘quality’ ones were going to be there.

  32. “Syrian vice president, Sudanese President Bashir, and Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi” — did we really want to be associated with those people even at a funeral? Good Muslims, all.

  33. @Suzanne – that’s another point that I was thinking of. Ok, they call themselves Muslim and they are monsters yet THEY are welcome to show their respects with NO question. PSHAW!! 😛

  34. OK there a difference between the preparing and praying over the body and then the funeral procession..the preparing and praying over the body i would say is mostly for family and for muslims of course…unless you want to become a muslim that day and then join in the janazat prayer inside of the mosque which is a specific prayer for muslims who have died..where as well as other things you say “allahu akbar (Allah is Great)” many times..also known as takbir and I’m guessing ppl who aren’t muslims dont wanna be doing that..Then theres the funeral procession which anyone can attend (apart from women) muslim of non-muslim..because they are just walking the body to the gravesite..
    As i said before i think they made the rite choice to avoid confusion and in the end its up to the families choice so if they dnt want u there.. too bad.
    Just to answer a few of pplz questions..
    @Lynn: “are non-Muslims allowed to be buried there?”…No..muslims are buried ONLY with muslims…now why would you want it any other way?
    @Coolred: “I would find it a kick in the ass personally considering the US is a strong ally of Saudi and turns a blind eye to it’s human rights violations” Well i guess thats not saudis fault that american chooses to turn a blind eye i guess u gotta take that one up with obama…at the end of the day political ties is one thing..but when it come to religion its a whole other ball game..for everyone involved.
    @Oby: “What if all Muslim leaders were excluded from the burial of a high level US diplomat? Don’t you think THAT would be recognized and seen in an offensive light by Muslims?” Not at all..i dont think they would be offended at all considering we as muslims are not permitted to attend non-muslim funeral services held in churches.
    @Lynn: “All I have to say is when the people of Saudi Arabia are scratching their heads wondering why the rest of the world finds it difficult to respect them, they should remember incidents like this one” To be honest i dont think they would ever have that conversation with themselves..and they shouldn’t on this topic ..why have to question something when their intentions were good (in my opinion)..If the non-muslim top notch leaders who were invited were so offended..why did they attend?.they could have declined the offer..

  35. @Bella Vita – ‘No..muslims are buried ONLY with muslims…now why would you want it any other way?’

    Why? What does it matter. I was shown that picture and asked what I thought about the ‘equality’ of the dead. Equality? I guess as long as you aren’t one of the ‘other’, eh? Are non Muslims allowed to be buried in Saudi Arabia? Do they have any crematoriums for those who would like to be cremated?

    ‘…unless you want to become a muslim that day and then join in the janazat prayer inside of the mosque which is a specific prayer for muslims who have died..’

    I have always heard that non-Muslims ARE welcome in mosques. They don’t have to pray like a Muslim to be there and even the king was not able to pray like the rest of them since he was in a wheelchair fresh out of surgery. Why couldn’t they say their own personal prayers or none, and just be there to pay their respects? There is NO way I’m buying that everyone at the funeral is participating in the washing of the body so any mention of that as having anything to do with a reason for non-Muslims to no be there is a moot point.

    ‘To be honest i dont think they would ever have that conversation with themselves..’

    No, me neither. Why should they? Non-Muslim’s feelings don’t matter they are nothing but ‘breathing machines’ anyway. Isn’t that right? But oh no! don’t you DARE make the mistake of unintentionally slighting a Muslim.

  36. @Lynn: “Are non Muslims allowed to be buried in Saudi Arabia? Do they have any crematoriums for those who would like to be cremated?”
    I have no idea but i guess if a non muslim died in saudi where else will they bury him? of course in saudi but not in the same area as muslims are buried..who needs a crematorium in saudi? Its against islam to cremate.
    Look at the end of the day..no one if forcing non-muslims to go to Saudi..knowing very well that it is a muslim country that does not really allow non-muslims religious beliefs to be on public display.so if they don’t like it then they don’t need to be there..like in the west when muslims complain about how they can’t do this or cant do that openly ..well if u dnt like it knowing that its a non-muslim country..u don’t have to stay there.
    ..non muslims are welcome in mosques..dosn’t mean they actually participate in a ritual prayer as an actual muslim..but i get wot u mean that they cud be doing there doing their own thing at the back or just watching..I’m not sure if non-muslims would even want to do that but the option wasn’t even there for them to choose…i guess its up to the family who they invite and what they want to happen and it was obvious they didn’t want non-muslims at that particular part of the ceremony.
    .if anyone has a disability and cannot stand or prostrate they dont have to they can make their salat sitting down in a chair as you saw with king Abdullah ..not everyone at the funeral washed the body of course its up to the closest family members..but i was only making that point cos it seems some ppl who commented were so sad non-muslims were not taking part in every single ritual.
    ..
    “Non-Muslim’s feelings don’t matter they are nothing but ‘breathing machines’ anyway. Isn’t that right?”
    ..u said it..thats harsh.. i was just making the point that not everyone should care wot others think of them so why shud saudis be any different..at the end of the day..isn’t the royal family supposed to be best buds with america? if they felt it was going to be rude I’m sure they wudn’t have done it..they probably let all non-muslim leaders know why they will not be attending the main part of the funeral..who knows i guess we are only seeing one side of story.
    “But oh no! don’t you DARE make the mistake of unintentionally slighting a Muslim.” ..i didn’t get that bit can u explain?..

  37. @Bela Vta – ‘who needs a crematorium in saudi? Its against islam to cremate.’

    You do realize that Saudi Arabia has a large expat community, right?
    Is it legal for them to die there? Do they have to have a Muslim burial even if they aren’t Muslims?

    ‘…like in the west when muslims complain about how they can’t do this or cant do that openly ..well if u dnt like it knowing that its a non-muslim country..u don’t have to stay there.’

    That’s VERY true but I am pretty sure that that is not your reaction when you hear about burqa bans etc. Am I right? LOL 😉

  38. Yes i do realise that saudi has a big expat community..but they know very well the laws when coming to saudi.i guess the appeal of money makes u forget all that…
    umm no ure not rite..if the law in the country u live in is that there is a ban on niqab..then the country that issues the law has every rite to do what they want …and if a muslim woman wants to keep it on she will have to face the penalty..or move country.

  39. Lynn “Do they have to have a Muslim burial even if they aren’t Muslims?”….they should think of that before going to saudi..?
    “Is it legal for them to die there?” ..im sure its ‘legal’ cos u can’t help were you die.lol..but they are not buried with the muslims..i said that before.

  40. Curious as to why nonmuslims aren’t buried in a muslim cemetary. What possible difference does it make to a dead body where it is buried? None. So the only difference it makes is to the living. So why would living Muslims care who is buried in a cemetary…according to Islamic belief..on Judgement day everyone rises up and are judged and yada yada yada…what difference does it make to you then where you were buried…or who shared the space next to you? I just find it extremely funny that even in death people are separated into the Us and Them category. So much for death being the great equalizer.

  41. Bella VIta,
    Muslims are allowed to attend funeral services in churches. I have done so many times myself. Why ever not?

    Also, while I have heard many times that Muslims can’t be cremated, do you have any Quranic reference for that?

    A true Muslim country- where there is no compulsion in religion- would let everyone practice their own faiths.

  42. I’ve heard Muslims believe in some sort of grave life so I reckon they don’t want some infidel on either side of them. Death continues in the dirt and who wants to be stuck with nonMuslims on either side of them until God resurrects everyone for judgment? That’s my guess on why they won’t allow nonMuslims to be buried nearby. It’s especially sad if a Muslim man married a Jewish or Christian woman and they cannot be buried together.

    When I’ve mentioned possibly being cremated my Muslim Arab friend seemed shocked so I guess if it’s not mentioned in the Quran, it’s a cultural no-no at any rate!

  43. Bella Vita…

    Non Christians of any kind are always welcome at church…even during a service/mass and funeral/wedding. My husband who is Hindu has attended mass with us even on Christmas. What is frowned upon in the Catholic church (not sure of the other denominations) is a non Catholic taking communion. Other than that they are welcome to participate in every way…or if they prefer to sit there and just observe that is OK too. No one would ever not allow a muslim or any other nonChristian to participate.

    I don’t understand why Muslims are so hung up on being exclusive. They complain that they are not accepted etc. yet they set these exclusive rules for themselves that take them out of the mainstream and won’t allow nonmuslims to get close so what can hey expect. It feels like there is discrimination on so many levels against nonmuslims. One thing that I like about christianity and hinduism (and maybe Judaism…my daughter was invited to a bat mitvah recently) that there aren’t too many instance where others are not involved/invited.

  44. I personally have thought cremation was the better option for humanity anyhow. Cheaper (people dont have to spend their life savings on caskets in the states etc…and muslims dont have to take up space with bodies in the groun etc…and vice versa) 7 billion people on the planet take up a hell of a lot of space when they are dead just as they do when alive. Just makes sense.

  45. Actually, even though there are all the beliefs about not disturbing graves Saudis are pretty efficient. They recycle graves regularly. After sufficient time the reuse the same spot and just push the bones aside. I was quite surprised when I found that out.

  46. @Coolred – ‘Cheaper (people dont have to spend their life savings on caskets ‘

    Trust me, you STILL have to have to rent a casket for the viewing (IF you choose to have a viewing) and they don’t come cheap.

    @Sandy – OMG! They just push the bones aside and put a new body in? I can see the archaeologists 1000 years from now rewriting the history books after ‘mass graves’ are found all over the Muslim world! LOL

  47. Yes, my Syrian friend told me about several family members sharing the same grave. When he went to a burial within the last year or so, he said it was sad seeing his uncle’s bones when they were getting ready to bury a cousin who’d died rather young.

    Interesting thought about the “mass graves” all over the Muslim world. Well, hopefully the archaeologists of the future will know that tidbit about Muslims sharing graves.

    And above…I meant LIFE continues in the dirt (not death).

  48. ‘….they should think of that before going to saudi..?’

    And if they were taken there as babies or born there?

    But I thought we were ALL Muslims, we just didn’t know it yet 😉 If the stories are true then I guess we’ll figure it out if/when we get there but the ‘real’ Muslims already know this so I would think they would not have segregation in the cemeteries, am I right?

  49. ‘Well, hopefully the archaeologists of the future will know that tidbit about Muslims sharing graves.’

    LOL! Can’t count on anything. Those Muslims seem to be pretty good at erasing/rewriting history so there’s NO telling what the story would look like by then. 😉

  50. @Oby..Well if your husband wants to do that and its acceptable in his religion then he can go ahead..thats between him and his faith….
    All of my family are catholic..will i attend mass for any of their religious events..no..will i attend a funeral for them ..no..and that does not mean i do not love them any less..but i don’t need to go to church if a family member has died so that i can pay my respects or remember them any better..the pain of loss dosn’t ease once you get home from church ..as a muslim i will pray for them but not in a church yet their memory will never leave my mind..how sad if ppl think that the only way to say goodbye to a loved one is that u must see their hollow cold body in a coffin..no thanks done that before and i still have the worst memories..
    “They complain that they are not accepted ” ..sorry oby im not the type to complain about not being accepted.i dnt really care..accept me or not.. i don’t make excuses for my religion because i chose it myself.
    Well Oby thats all good and dandy that your accepted in the hindu/jewish religions im sure if you went to an eid celebration muslims would welcome you with open arms. Sorry if we may come across in a negative way when asserting our religious practises but they are clear and without fault ..some ppl try to sugar coat..others tell it like it is. Its like christians who go to idol filled churches when its against one of the ten commandments..some ppl don’t go and follow the rules of their religion and some turn a blind eye..
    Everyone is sociable at these events..yet im sure if you started discussing different ritual practises/belief systems with people of the “involving” other religions then im sure u will get a different answer…just saying 🙂

    @Lynn..what do babies have to do with dead ppl? ..u mean if a baby dies..from what i found out today..there are no non-muslim cemeteries in saudi..that usually when a non-muslim dies..their family will have their body flown back to their country (makes sense if ure in a foreign country) and if there is no family then the embassy gets involved to take the body back home..thats from a saudi sorce..i didn’t know that either till now.

  51. Bella Vita,
    You have to do what you think is right- but I think it’s very sad you can’t be with your family while they pay their last respects. My family is mostly Catholic with some Protestants and a few Jews and Muslims. We all just show up for whoever’s event it is because we are a family. I of course don’t pray prayers I don’t believe in- and no one expects me to. Just as I don’t expect that of them. And we all realize no one is endorsing anyone else’s belief system just because we show up. But for us it is important for family to support each other- and it seems that is what Allah would want too. I mean the Prophet let the Christians of Najran pray in the Masjid. How much different is this?

  52. Bella Vita…

    “Well Oby thats all good and dandy that your accepted in the hindu/jewish religions im sure if you went to an eid celebration muslims would welcome you with open arms.”

    That is my point exactly! Muslims are OK with nonmuslims as long as the nonmuslims are coming to them…ie: Eid. But then they are excluded out of so many things. Maybe this is only in Saudi because according to my husband in India Hindus and Muslims attend each other’s celebrations regularly. I am allowed to enter a mosque (outside of Mecca) for “educational” purposes, yet a muslim won’t go into a church. Skip the Catholics if “idols” are an issue. Go to another Christian denomination church…there are no “idols” present if that is a problem.

    I don’t understand that thought process. Just because someone attends another person’s house of worship does not mean that they are forgoing their own beliefs. It is showing respect for the other person’s right to believe what they want, but in NO WAY saying that you believe it too…going to a mosque does not make me a Muslim…attending a bat Mitvah does not make my daughter Jewish. When I am in a Hindu Temple, I pray to MY god not the hindu God. They are all houses of worship and God can hear your prayer no matter where you are and KNOWS you are not changing. But by NOT participating for the family you are the one separating yourself. That is your right (your in the general sense) but then Muslims can’t complain that they are not included/discriminated etc. Because, in fact, you are not…you are being invited/allowed. You chose to set yourself above others and not accept.

  53. There are no crematoriums in Saudi Arabia. When an expat dies in Saudi Arabia the local embassy is to be contacted and makes arrangements for the repatriation of the body back to the expats home country.

    Many Muslims, to include Muslim dignitaries, have attended Christian funerals. For example, when President Ronald Reagan passed away there were Muslim dignitaries who attended his funeral. My husband was by my side the whole time during my Dad’s funeral.

  54. didn’t the saudi kind/prince someone attend the william/kate wedding..
    In the big church with a very christian mass and wedding 🙂 i thought i saw a thobe wearing chap there, but i understand he could be a thobe wearing christian…

  55. Muslims aren’t allowed in churches!?! What a ridiculous load of garbage. Even my (former) resident Muslim Extremist attends church if the occasion asks it. Just don’t expect her to offer her hand to the priest when he goes around greeting people with ‘peace’. I could have DIED of embarrassment for that nice, nice man standing there like an idiot with his hand hanging out there offering ‘peace’ while she just stares at him. But, anyway, she was there and that wasn’t even the funeral service but a service that was being said in my mother’s honor one day months later. My Muslim friend attended many a family wedding or christenings with me in the 5 years that I knew him. Never once was it even close to being an issue.

    @Carol – Aren’t there generations of expats living there? So this person who is born in KSA dies and their bodies have to be sent off to a place where they have never personally stepped foot in? What if the family is too poor to be able to go with the body? Strangers have to conduct their funerals for them or something?

  56. “LOL! Can’t count on anything. Those Muslims seem to be pretty good at erasing/rewriting history so there’s NO telling what the story would look like by then. ”
    we do not change our Holy Quran. There is nothing as Old Quran and New Quran. There is not any Quran written by different people. It was in Arabic and till now in arabic and will be in Arabic. Not like it was the Bible. Like the language of the Biblical time was Syrialic language which was replaced by Greek and than transformed in English by a long way……
    Recheck the history who rewrite the history. Get your source.

  57. lol rest assured dear you bone will not be replaced with my one. Lolz

    by the way, I am used to visit churches and bandits. For many of friends was hindu I attended some of their festivals. I spent a good years in a Hindu area in Bangladesh. We were used to share our religious books with each others…. I miss those days…. 😦 my childhood frienss…. I miss those evening and nights.. I want my yesterday once more 😦 … I think lol its more important to make a time machine than buying huge Boing….. 😐

  58. ‘we do not change our Holy Quran. There is nothing as Old Quran and New Quran’

    Well, we don’t know about that. The ‘old’ Quran was ‘memorized’ it wasn’t written down at all and we all know how the Telephone Game ends up, don’t we? Also, the majority of Muslims in the world do NOT speak/read/understand Arabic so the only ‘Quran’ they know is the one that someone translated for them or ‘told’ them so how do they have ANY idea what the ‘original’ said? I read a Quran that said one thing and now people that have read it in Arabic say that it doesn’t say that anywhere in the ‘original Arabic’ Quran. If the Islam of Saudi Arabia does not match the Islam of another part of the world then I’d have to say that there is some changing going on somewhere. And, I believe if the Wahabbis have their way they will change EVERY Quran to say what THEY say it says/means until no one knows how it got to be called the ‘Religion of Peace’. Never say never buddy. Where there is a will, there is a way and there is no stronger will than that of a religious extremist!

  59. @Oby….ok so ure problem is that the entire muslim population are not willing to reach out to invite non-muslims to events..lol ok then if thats what you think continue with that thought process..pretty generalised statement i would say.. Sure, hindus and muslims attend each others festivals but does that make it permissible in ISlam..in my opinion and understanding no. Actually if i did enter a church..it means i am accepting and endorsing and watching the exact thing Islam forbids..so if i am a practising muslim..that believes the only sin that Allah will not forgive it shirk..(associating patners with Allah) then why do i want to watch it..listen to it..be involved with it? Plain and simple.. My family totally understands my reasons so theres no questions about separation there.

    @Raha..just because a saudi royal prince attends a church event ..and he is a “muslim” does not mean what he is doing it rite. and that was prince waleed so dnt even get me started on him lol..

    @Lynn.. just cos u now 2 ppl in your life that are muslim and that attended other relgiious ceremonies thats why u think it has to be ok? Just going back to the burial of non-muslims in saudi..there are NO non-muslims buried in saudi..i posted about it before..im sure if they are poor the embassy gets involved.

    @ Sandy..what is sad about having my own way of “paying respects’ and remembering a loved one? Everyone has their own way of paying respects and in conjunction with my belief system i don’t prefer to attend these things but it dosn’t mean i am not being respectful..i visit my family ever 2 days and i realise that i need to be there with them because on days like xmas and easter and church events i will not be attending..but we as a family are stronger then ever and they understand why i am not there at their events. I think because Tawheed is such an integral part of Islam i know of many muslims who will not attend these functions because we are witnessing other then tawheed..and we cannot ignore that nor want to accept what is being said..even if its by listening. That is my opinon from what i understand ..Sure the prophet (saw) let them pray in the mosque but did he ever attend christian rituals …no…he didn’t ever attend non-muslim funerals…even for the ppl he loved.

  60. @Bella Vita,
    I just think it is sad when a family can’t morn together. But you see your family often, they understand and you have your way of seeing it, so I wish you all the best.

    Just because many Muslims DO attend these events doesn’t mean they don’t understand Tawheed is an integral part of Islam. They just are not threatened by it. And we ALL witness other than Tawheed all the time, if you live on the planet and mix with other people. I think everyone should be capable of witnessing things they don’t believe in. It helps them be tolerant of others. And anyone whose faith isn’t strong enough to handle that- has a weak faith indeed. And I’m not just talking about Muslims here. Anyone.

    I don’t know if the prophet ever attended a Christian ritual or not. And perhaps there were other sensitivities at the time if it is true he did not attend non-Muslim funerals. Maybe he chose not to because his followers were incapable of discerning the difference between paying respects and endorsing another faith- and if that was the case as the Prophet- it would have led to confusion. Given my position and the times we live in- no one should be confused.

  61. “Well, we don’t know about that. The ‘old’ Quran was ‘memorized’ it wasn’t written down at all and we all know how the Telephone Game ends up, don’t we? Also, the majority of Muslims in the world do NOT speak/read/understand Arabic so the only ‘Quran’ they know is the one that someone translated for them or ‘told’ them so how do they have ANY idea what the ‘original’ said? I read a Quran that said one thing and now people that have read it in Arabic say that it doesn’t say that anywhere in the ‘original Arabic’ Quran. If the Islam of Saudi Arabia does not match the Islam of another part of the world then I’d have to say that there is some changing going on somewhere. And, I believe if the Wahabbis have their way they will change EVERY Quran to say what THEY say it says/means until no one knows how it got to be called the ‘Religion of Peace’. Never say never buddy. Where there is a will, there is a way and there is no stronger will than that of a religious extremist!”

    religious etremism is something else which is different from religion. Well buddy lol you never read anything about Quran and its writhing technics, Unique things its not me that saying that also some great researcher ( ofcourse non Muslim) told that, ” there is not any change in words of Quran tell now.”
    you must know about printing process of Quran. Its not like any other book that goes it way to printing press direct. There are several way in processing. If any of the Wahabi ever try to change it will be a big disaster to them. Cause we muslim dont only read the written Quran and do not change its main verses or any other word in arabic while debating with each other or for our personal benefits as we saw in Bible’s improvement. It will be noticed at once if any one dare to change Quran cause we have It in our minds by word by word, by alphabet.. There is nothing been changed.

    And for changing of language form, there will me mass changed if translate your speech in Bangla, than with out reading your main English article if i change it again in Arabic, and again in Spanish and the last in Again in English. You will found a complete different thing. Quran is free from this way. We translate It but never ever re translate the verses from a translated copy. Lol as many other religion did it.
    Oh by the by yeah, some of our selfish or ‘less educated’ ( as I saw in Bangladesh some low educated Mullah’s give fatawas in the favour of some one special! While they have no qualification to do so and their not permitted ) did/ do change the explanation of a specific verse for their own benefits.

    Lol take note, old arabic is or classic arabic is still can be understood by arabic speakers either he@sho is an arab or not.

  62. “Well, we don’t know about that. The ‘old’ Quran was ‘memorized’ it wasn’t written down at all and we all know how the Telephone Game ends up, don’t we? Also, the majority of Muslims in the world do NOT speak/read/understand Arabic so the only ‘Quran’ they know is the one that someone translated for them or ‘told’ them so how do they have ANY idea what the ‘original’ said? ”

    again mistake lynn. Quran in written format from the very begging of Islam. Our Prophet (PBUH) was very careful about the matter. Hey wrote Those in stone in leaves and save it. It was in “memorised” format and also was in “written” format.
    You are telling about Hadith. Yeah Hadith was memorised was not written for fear of that it will be mixed with Quran
    .
    See? We do also care about mixing Quran and Hadith together. And changing is far from It.

  63. Quranic reference for NO cremation in Islam, but really in the 3 monotheistic religions

    Qur’an 20- 55:“From the (earth) did We create you, and into it shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again.”

    In the creation of Adam(a.s.) earth was used in his mixture. Cremation is disrespectful to the earth and to Allah. Fire, in Islam is seen as a punishment to be avoided. Allah alone decides that destiny.

    There was also the incident with Habile and Cabile (Cain & Abel). When Cain slew Abel, he didn’t know what to do with the dead body. A raven was sent to show him. The method is mentioned in the Qu’ran:

    Qur’an 5/31.Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother’s naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother’s naked corpse? And he became repentant.

    (Funny. I don’t recall this part of the Cain/Abel story in my 12 years of Catholic school).

  64. Thank you for the reference- though it is nothing against cremation unless you do a LOT of interpreting- which is something I avoid. Things burned don’t disappear and ashes are also of the earth and part of the natural way of Allahs creation.
    Fire in Islam is more than a punishment- it is also a purifier and something that allows us to cook our food, keep warm, smelt metals etc.

    I don’t see cremation as a punishment or “destiny” anymore than I do being eaten by worms. Both return you to earth.

  65. Sandy, why, being a muslim, would you avoid interpretation? Part of the deen is NOT to follow blindly, but search out & find understanding.. SOMEBODY has to interpret these things or else how would we be able to define our religion?!

    The ashes that are part of the earth are the remains of dead things, the natural way of Allah’s creation. True, fire is more than a punishment, but I meant through death. Cremation itself is not a punishment, but it is disrespectful of the dead body. However, our bodies are not rubbish to incinerate and burn to ashes to get rid of it like some sort of dirt. In the burials the body feeds the earth and every element(air,water,earth, fire) get their own portion. Dead body fertilizes the earth and enriches it. It creates greenness not ashes. Grass, trees and flowers blossom from it if it is buried without coffin properly. They clean the air. How many trees will be cut, made into coffins and burnt with the bodies for a cremation?

  66. Sandy, why, being a muslim, would you avoid interpretation? Part of the deen is NOT to follow blindly, but search out & find understanding.. SOMEBODY has to interpret these things or else how would we be able to define our religion?!

    The ashes that are part of the earth are the remains of dead things, the natural way of Allah’s creation. True, fire is more than a punishment, but I meant through death. Cremation itself is not a punishment, but it is disrespectful of the dead body. However, our bodies are not rubbish to incinerate and burn to ashes to get rid of it like some sort of dirt. In the burials the body feeds the earth and every element(air,water,earth, fire) get their own portion. Dead body fertilizes the earth and enriches it. It creates greenness not ashes. Grass, trees and flowers blossom from it if it is buried without a coffin properly. They clean the air. How many trees will be cut, made into coffins and burnt with the bodies for a cremation?

  67. how do you delete a double post on here? internet was acting funny

  68. “(Funny. I don’t recall this part of the Cain/Abel story in my 12 years of Catholic school).”

    Probably because that part of the story is likely from Jewish folklore and not in the Bible which the Catholic school would instruct from.

  69. I had no problem with interpretations per se. I have a problem with the solidifying of positions based on them. If that is how some interpret things, they should not be cremated. But neither should they overstate, weave and interpret and declare an Islamic position for all and for all time.

  70. Ummmmm, the Islamic position IS for all time.

    “I have a problem with the solidifying of positions based on them.” [interpretations].

    That’s vast and goes beyond just religion. So then there would be a problem w/a whole slew of topics based on solid interpretations and taking a position. WHAT?
    Did I overstate something? What was it please?

  71. @Bella Vita – ‘@Lynn.. just cos u now 2 ppl in your life that are muslim and that attended other relgiious ceremonies thats why u think it has to be ok?

    That just sounds so ignorant. Why do you presume that I only know 2 people that are Muslim that attend non-Muslim ceremonies? How about we say ‘Just because you have only been taught extremist Islam and only accept them as real Muslims does NOT mean that they (and subsequently YOU) are practicing Islam correctly’ I mentioned my daughter because she is an ignorant, extremist convert (not too unlike yourself) and yet even SHE has not found a reason to not attend those functions (and I am absolutely SURE she would have looked HARD for an excuse).

    @Gladiator – ‘and do not change its main verses or any other word in arabic while debating with each other ‘

    Perhaps not, but the MEANING of words has changed and evolved over time. To one person ‘hijab’ means ‘modesty’ while to SO many the word gets defined as ‘cover everything but one eye’. That is what I mean.

    ‘Hey wrote Those in stone in leaves and save it. ‘

    Was that first word supposed to be He or They or Hey?

    I hope it wasn’t supposed to be ‘He’ because we all know that Mohammed was illiterate and he didn’t ‘write’ anything. But when did they gather up all these leaves and stones and decide to write it all down? Also, where did all these leaves come from in the middle of the desert?

    @Robin – ‘(Funny. I don’t recall this part of the Cain/Abel story in my 12 years of Catholic school).’

    I don’t think it is wise to say what the ‘catholics or Jews’ or whoever believe when your source for it is Islam. That just makes no sense, does it?

    Also @Robin ‘Dead body fertilizes the earth and enriches it. It creates greenness not ashes.’

    Really? Is that what your religion from Saudi Arabia taught you? LMAO!! Did you not see that picture of the ‘cemetery of equality’ posted earlier? Perhaps your definition of ‘greenness’ has also been altered! LOL

  72. Lynn, the Quran written on leaf or stones made me remember a Muslim friend who told me that the instruction to stone an adulterer was supposed to be in the Quran (it’s not), but a goat ate that leaf! 🙂 How many other Quranic instructions ended up as goat feed?

    Also if the Quran were not altered at all, why did the one caliph have all the old copies burned when his version came out? He wanted to burn the evidence of discrepancies perhaps?

  73. Lynn, why do you come HERE to find your answers to Islam? Why not read the quran, the hadiths, talk to a reliable, respected sheikh? Take a course, for pete’s sake?!! Then, do it all over again.

    I don’t think it is wise to say what the ‘catholics or Jews’ or whoever believe when your source for it is Islam. That just makes no sense, does it?

    WHY not? It was my experience. So, YES! VALID. Why, did I touch a nerve?

    Also @Robin ‘Dead body fertilizes the earth and enriches it. It creates greenness not ashes.’

    Really? Is that what your religion from Saudi Arabia taught you? LMAO!! Did you not see that picture of the ‘cemetery of equality’ posted earlier? Perhaps your definition of ‘greenness’ has also been altered!

    No, didn’t see the picture.

  74. Yes, I believe there are a whole slew of problems based on “solid” interpretations.

  75. bella vita…

    Whatever…you can interpret what I said as you like.

    I never said the entire Muslim population on the face of the earth which I thought was clear. However, I stand by my POV. If Muslims act as you do then THOSE Muslims cannot complain that you are not included or that you are discriminated against. Because you aren’t. It is YOU who removes yourself from the situations, festivals, family things. However, those Muslims who do not disengage themselves and who interpret their faith in a way that gives Allah some credit for understanding what is in their heart and nonmuslims a chance to interact with them in a give and take way will be the ones that nonmuslims will dialogue with/learn from. The rest will stay cloistered in their own world. And you know what? That is totally fine and even I can respect those feelings. BUT I cannot respect the constant whine about discrimination from those who behave in a way that practically ensures that they will be marinalized. I am not talking about only church either.

  76. @Robin – ‘Lynn, why do you come HERE to find your answers to Islam?’

    Why do you assume that I am here to find answers to Islam? How ignorant would that be? Are you here to find answers to Islam or to GIVE answers about Islam? LMAO!!

    ‘No, didn’t see the picture’

    Then maybe you should LOOK at a picture of a Muslim cemetery and see if you can find the ‘greeness’ that you claim would be found. hahahaha

    @Oby – ‘The rest will stay cloistered in their own world. And you know what? That is totally fine’

    ABSOLUTELY fine!! I would even ENCOURAGE it! 😉

  77. Sandy…

    Here is one reason why I find Islam so contradictory. You said it very well. Interpretation is just that…interpretation…

    1. to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate
    2. to construe or understand in a particular way

    So why are there 4 schools of thought? Why is there more than one branch of Islam? A muslim once told me that Islam has no “leadership position” like the pope for example, because Islam is supposed to be personal to that person coming to Allah. They are not supposed to be dictated to and they are to interpret things using their brains. That is all well and good, but it seems to me, like you are saying, that in order to do that people must have the freedom to interpret how they like. Bella Vita feels she cannot do certain things in order to be Muslim and to her credit, she is not saying that she is forcing that on others. She says that is her interpretation (understanding). That is why I said I could respect that position though I don’t agree with it. If we claim one interpretation is the correct one then it is very much like having a “leadership” who has laid out the right way to practice and excludes all others form their interpretation. But that goes directly against what Islam is about, doesn’t it?

    I agree with your thoughts as this is how it was explained to me…but then again the person who explained it to me was an american. Maybe Americans are more open or fluid in their interpretations?

  78. ‘Maybe Americans are more open or fluid in their interpretations?’

    Ummm, I have to say THAT is not necessarily true AT all. My (former) resident Muslim Extremist is 100% AMERICAN (not that you would know from her dress and her heavy ACCENT)!! Nationality does NOT ensure sanity! 😉 LOL

  79. Lynn, you sure are doing a lot of LOL, LMAO and hahahaha. Just sayin’.

    I am genuinely not here to give answers to islam except when someone GENUINELY cares to know, but, only if I know. Obviously, I’m not an expert. I gather you are HERE to learn about Islam because that’s all that’s in your posts! You are constantly “challenging” (not seeking knowledge, God forbid!) No matter what the topic, you eventually turn this forum around about you and your apparent search for answers in Islam. Just take a course, already.

    Did you really think there were no muslim cemetaries with no greenery?

    http://www.gardens-of-peace.org.uk/gallery.php

  80. @Oby..to be honest i get sick of the whines as well from the muslims ..lol…i know wot u mean..why complain about something that you are contributing fully to? i am an ex whiner lol..and now i totally get why ppl would feel hesitant to accept us..so i just get on with my life not caring what anyone thinks or expecting anything..ppl shud start doing the same..muslims are different..we need to own that and embrace it..not strive for constant acceptance cos i think ppl in general are getting sick and tired of hearing that we are the same as other religions…except with minor changes..WERE NOT. and thats not a way to push ppl away but to just acknowledge the facts and put them out there so ppl know how to deal with us..am i making sense..it sounded better in my head lol

  81. @robin – ‘Lynn, you sure are doing a lot of LOL, LMAO and hahahaha. Just sayin’.

    Well, you will NEVER see me say that I don’t find religions (especially the extremists) to be freakin’ HILARIOUS!!!

    Did you really think there were no muslim cemetaries with no greenery?’

    THAT’S not what I said. YOU said that the ‘Muslim’ burial made GREEN. I am only saying that THAT is obviously not true. That was MY point. 🙂

    ‘I gather you are HERE to learn about Islam because that’s all that’s in your posts!’

    I will assume (since that’s what we do around here) that you mean my ‘comments’ since I am not the owner of this blog. I do not make ‘posts’ here. So the subject matter of the posts is not up to me. I am here to interact with and learn about ‘Muslims’ that is COMPLETELY different from ‘Islam’, wouldn’t you say? 😉 There are plenty of posts that Carol writes that are NOT about Muslims or Islam. And no matter how hard I try I just can’t seem to be able to pin breast cancer on Islam (yet, but give me time ;-)) But perhaps you don’t read posts that are not related to Islam. That’s cool. I understand the need for some people to limit themselves on what they read or see for the protection of their deen. Education can be a real danger sometimes, can’t it? LMFAO! (I didn’t want to disappoint ;-))

  82. Ok, if I agree will you go away?
    I prayed for you, Lynn, dahlink.;)

  83. @Robin – oops, sorry forgot to respond to this: ‘I don’t think it is wise to say what the ‘catholics or Jews’ or whoever believe when your source for it is Islam. That just makes no sense, does it?
    WHY not? It was my experience. So, YES! VALID. Why, did I touch a nerve?’

    So, let’s for examples’ sake say ‘The Book of Mormon’ had a rule that they said was based on a Quranic Revelation (to make it seem acceptable to Muslims in order to convert them) but then that ‘Quranic Revelation’ could not be found in the Quran. Does that mean that the Quran was wrong just because those ‘Mormons’ made up false (according to YOUR belief) allegations and then taught that?. That is very much similar to what you did with your Cain and Able example here:
    ‘There was also the incident with Habile and Cabile (Cain & Abel). When Cain slew Abel, he didn’t know what to do with the dead body. A raven was sent to show him. The method is mentioned in the Qu’ran:
    Qur’an 5/31.Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother’s naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother’s naked corpse? And he became repentant.
    (Funny. I don’t recall this part of the Cain/Abel story in my 12 years of Catholic school).’

    Perhaps I just don’t understand why would you think that was ‘funny’. I think it makes perfect sense that one religion would be trying to twist things to try to make their ‘version’ fit with the ‘mainstream’ of those they want to get to join them. But I am curious how you took that ‘raven scratching the ground’ to hide a MURDER as any kind of ‘instruction’ on the ‘God preferred’ burial method’

  84. Lynn you have sympathy on the foreign accent thing. I swear my palm itches and I feel like smacking American Muslims who suddenly speak English with an Arabic accent.

  85. ‘Ok, if I agree will you go away?’

    Agree on what? Saaaay it!!!

  86. @Sandy – ‘I swear my palm itches and I feel like smacking American Muslims who suddenly speak English with an Arabic accent.’

    Does that hold for Urdu accents as well? if so, can I give you an address? 😉

  87. But, to be honest. She had that ‘Pakistani/Indian’ head wobble thingy since she was very young!! LOL

  88. OMG! Lynn….that’s too funny!

  89. First of all, there was nothing to agree with. I just thought that IF I did, you’d be nice and go away. Guess I was wrong.

    Perhaps I just don’t understand why would you think that was ‘funny’. I think it makes perfect sense that one religion would be trying to twist things to try to make their ‘version’ fit with the ‘mainstream’ of those they want to get to join them. But I am curious how you took that ‘raven scratching the ground’ to hide a MURDER as any kind of ‘instruction’ on the ‘God preferred’ burial method’
    I didn’t take it that way, it’s explained in the Qu’ran. Pretty self-explanatory.

    What was twisted? Certainly not the Qu’ran. Oh, you mean all the different versions of the “bible?” I don’t believe religion has to be revised, once Allah has decided the rules, just so more people ‘accept” it. People are returning to Islam in DROVES. Either you take it or leave it. No matter what you say, there is no compulsion. It kind of defeats the purpose of religion.

  90. ‘I just thought that IF I did, you’d be nice and go away’

    Oh HAIL no!! But thank you for that good example of why Muslims should not be trusted. They have been taught to say ‘whatever the enemy wants to hear’. That has a good solid base in the Quran, doesn’t it?

    ‘Oh, you mean all the different versions of the “bible?”’

    There is no point in trying to discuss that issue with me as I am not a Christian (or any other religion) any more than I am a Muslim.

    ‘I didn’t take it that way, it’s explained in the Qu’ran.’

    Well, not in the verse you quoted. I’m sorry, what WAS the purpose of you mentioning Cain and Able and the raven?

  91. ‘No matter what you say, there is no compulsion.’

    That really cracks me up!! Why is the punishment for apostasy ‘death’?!?

  92. Lynn, pay attention!
    Cain & Abel in Qu’ran proves that burial is preferred in Islam, not cremation. If you stop laughing long enough, you may be able to keep track;)

    Yes, in that verse.

  93. It doesn’t “prove” anything of the sort. Cain and Abel story only shows that was a suggestion made by a raven. And of course the issue is clouded because intentions are not necessarliy pure on the part of the Raven as there is a murder situation/possibe hide the evidence situation going on. Amazing that one example, of one raven’s suggestion, in the midst of a crime scene becomes the definitive ruling for all time.

  94. Sandy, subhaanAllah!

    Ok. I’m outta here.

  95. LOL!! How COULD I stop laughing when the hilarity just doesn’t stop?

    “Cain & Abel in Qu’ran proves that burial is preferred in Islam, not cremation.’

    LOL!!

    Yeah, what Sandy said!

  96. As a Muslim, it’s hard to know what to say. This sort of “logic” and “scholarship” is precisely why most of the Islamic world is a backward, hot mess. They never start with this stuff. As a convert (I will not say “revert”- no need to make up a new word- back at the time of dinosaurs when I did it, the word was “convert”) you learn about how there is no clergy and your relationship is direct with Allah, and how he is kind and benificent and how there is no compulsion. Then as you get more into it- they start passing off this stuff. And they have whole bookloads of nonesensical stuff to support it.

    I can convince no one here of anything- Muslim or not. The only thing I can do is show that whatever you make think of Islam- not all Muslims feel compelled to comply and conform to rigid invented “interpretations” by clergy….oh…excuse me “scholars”.

  97. ‘Then as you get more into it- they start passing off this stuff. And they have whole bookloads of nonesensical stuff to support it.’

    Too bad you aren’t allowed to change your mind once you’re in it. Now you will have to forever be connected to them as brothers/sisters no matter how nutty they may seem. 😉

  98. Lynn, I don’t mind being Muslim. But I do sometimes mind the baggage that comes with it- since it isn’t baggage I want or believe.

  99. robinrcks…the story of cain and able and the raven just informs cain not to leave a dead body rotting above ground…but to at least have the decency to cover or bury it after death..whether you murdered or it died naturally etc. Burying it in the earth is not specifically the point…not leaving it out in the opening for disease etc is and having respect for the dead.

    Cremation does not disrespect the dead. How does that disrespect the dead? Please explain your logic there. Our bodies apparently are just containers for our souls…and no matter how we die..on the final day our bodies are regenerated…in order to be punished and burned again for eternity (irony lol). How does cremating and making space for the living disrespecting the dead?

  100. Wow lots of post on this. If I remember right not cremating a body is a Jewish law (Leviticus or Deuteronomy ) and it was because burning a body was seen as a part of pagan worshiping. Then again seeing how Judaism started in a desert firewood is kind of too precious a commodity to waste on cremation since that using a LOT of wood. Islam took a lot of things from Judaism /Christianity so it doesn’t surprise me if cremation isn’t allowed. Happens a lot when religions “borrow” from others that came before it. Take Christmas which used to be Saturnalia by got made into a Christian holiday

  101. @Sandy, Lynn, et al.
    “Lynn you have sympathy on the foreign accent thing. I swear my palm itches and I feel like smacking American Muslims who suddenly speak English with an Arabic accent.”

    Just wanted to point out that sometimes, people pick up accents just from hanging around people from other countries.

  102. Yes, I am aware of that. I know people can go down south for a vacation and come home with quite the ‘southern drawl’. I grew up with Scottish accents around me and somehow I didn’t catch it. My daughter’s friends parents all have accents (and the friends even speak the language with the parents/grandparents) yet they don’t seem to have the accent that my daughter has perfected. Amazing, isn’t it?

  103. “Just wanted to point out that sometimes, people pick up accents just from hanging around people from other countries.”

    If you say so. Isuspect a good smack might “revert” their way of speaking in most cases.

  104. @Lynn & Sandy,

    I am not speaking for every situation, but I do know from personal experience that sometimes it is quite easy to pick up other people’s accents. I have a tendency to pick up accents without realizing it, particularly if it is one I am already familiar with. I’ve actually been asked if I spoke English before (and English is my first -and at the time only- language). Also, sometimes it is easier for people to understand me if I change my speech patterns slightly, thus creating a slightly different accent.

    If you are taught a particular accent/dialect of a language, it would only seem natural to pick up the accent of the person that is teaching you. Sometimes, a person’s “natural” accent gets blended with the accent of the people they are around- which may account for why it doesn’t sound exactly the same as the other person’s accent.

    However, I also realize that sometimes people fake accents on purpose. Don’t know why (aside from pursuing an acting career…lol), but sometimes people do. And when it comes to these people, I really don’t understand it either. It’s probably better to ask them.

  105. When I would visit my family in texas just for a few weeks then return to Bahrain…everyone said I “spoke texas”…whatever that is. LOL

  106. If the converts start to speak with an arabic accent then perhaps they need some Imams that are not imported from arabic countries. Years ago Catholics said mass in Latin…but no one I know spoke english with a Latin accent or threw in Latin phrases into their conversations to prove piety. The Latin stayed in the church. I feel so glad that they changed that whole thing. To me it is stupid to be living in America and have to speak the prayers in a foreign language.

  107. @Lori – ‘I’ve actually been asked if I spoke English before’

    Why am I not at ALL surprised by that revelation 😉

  108. wow allt his discussion oncremation vs burial. in the end it’s just a body, let me throw my 2 cents in.. hindus believe the soul is important the body is just a shell 🙂 so burning the body is just gettin rid of the earthly form and in my opinion much cleaner, and doesn’t occupy spae and no worry of someone being buries right on top of you , no coffin costs 🙂 no funeral costs 🙂

    anyway to each his own i will only say, please please please consider donating your organs /eyes etc., there are plenty of people in need of them… and if you are game do donate your body to science, we need them badly 🙂

  109. @Radha – ‘…no coffin costs no funeral costs’

    Perhaps in India!! Trust me, here in the US there’s still plenty of costs involved with a cremation funeral. You even have to pay for a coffin if you plan to have a viewing at a funeral home. What a rip off, eh?

    I’ve thought of donating my body to science but the thought of it kinda grosses me out. Although I could perhaps change my mind on that someday. But they are welcome to any parts that are still usable after I’m done with them.

  110. @lynn – actually no, Even in the US if you plan to cremate the cost is very low.
    I just lost my cousin and we had a hindu funeral/cremation type thing and the hindu funeral – w/priest etc., cost 2K but the funeral home just charged us for renting a casket fro 2 hrs ( the time it took for the hindu rites) and ZAP!!!! that was it. v v cheap.. so i told F if i die , those who want to see me can do so inthe morgue, and zap me away 🙂

    hopefully i will die in india though.. warm place atleast, after current snow storm i’m close to being done with NE..

  111. ‘Even in the US if you plan to cremate the cost is very low’

    I guess that’s a relative term. I think $1600 for a rented casket (what we had to pay JUST for the casket) was ridiculous. The total costs at the funeral home was more like 7K. The actual cremation is itemized at $250. So, I guess I know what I’ll be doing with my husband when the time comes! LOL

  112. When my uncle died, my aunt had his ashes in a pretty urn and had photos of him at certain family events,milestones. She had his rifle and other favorite things of his displayed as well. It was a nice memorial. I never thought about renting a casket for the viewing because I never thought of a viewing for a cremation. (You can tell most people in my area have regular burials, huh? :))

  113. Suzanne – Those urns don’t come cheap either!! I don’t know why we seem to need to see that dead body. But it works out well for the funeral homes, that’s for sure. 😉

  114. […] 2011: October was a somber month with the passing of late Crown Prince Sultan.  The post of his passing received 113 […]

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