Saudi Arabia/Iran: War or Peace

 

Tensions between Saudi Arabia and Iran continue to escalate.  In addition there is high concern among many global leaders of the status of Iran’s developing nuclear program.  What does this mean?  Or more to the point, where is this possible leading to?  Is a new chapter in history going to take place soon?

While Saudi Arabia and Iran continue proxy wars using Bahrain or Syria as venues, Saudi Arabia is as keen as Israel in this case to see that Iran does not develop an active nuclear capability.  However, Saudi Arabia’s likely role in the event of a confrontation with Iran would likely be as a quiet supporter.

It would not surprise me in the least if Western or other intelligence teams were already in Iran building a network of sources and gathering information.  The information gathered would be details and status of Iran’s nuclear capability in addition to acquiring detailed information for a pre-emptive strike aimed at debilitating and destroying Iran’s nuclear program.

Such a strike would likely be by a drone but could be followed by more traditional military operations.  I can envision a western coalition coordinating military movements and activities with silent funding by Saudi Arabia.

Traditional diplomatic actions have failed.  Ahmedinejad’s latest response to the UN is that ‘the West must prove Iran has nuclear weapons.’

Hmmm….maybe there is an overriding motivation in pulling the US troops out early from Aghanistan.

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90 Responses

  1. This is a hard one. I really have no idea. The Israelis and saudis, for all their faults, are rational. Can’t same the same about the Iranian leaders.

    Iran is a big country, and I don’t see how an attack could be entirely successful (just ask Sadam!). It would probably unite the people there, only making things worse.

    Even so, the clock is ticking and both S. Arabia and Israel have reason the fear and act. War (or hate) sure makes strange bedfellows.

    I am guessing a tactical strike by Israel to kill Iranian leaders – not at nuclear facilities.

  2. If america has enough proof why isnt it attacking its lilke some game … yes we know you have an keep threatening ,,

    Yes , iran with its nukes is dangerous to saudi ,,

    Its better saudi develops its nukes ..quickly it has to sfeguard it self inshalalh

  3. Why is Iran with nuclear weapons any worse than Pakistan? Iran at least is a unified country. Pakistan is a mess and its nuclear arsenal (however small) is something that could get into the hands of terrorists. Given Iran’s history, of course they want nuclear arms. Their legal government was overthrown in the 1950’s. In the 1980’s with Western support they were attacked by Iraq. Anyone looking at recent history show that the US only respects nuclear power. So, North Korea is handled with diplomacy and Iraq and Afghanistan are attacked.

  4. @.Anahindi
    “Its better saudi develops its nukes “….we wish, but their best buds american would never allow them to…

  5. I don’t think the ME needs any more nukes. If anyone uses one they will also poison themselves.

  6. ‘…quickly it has to sfeguard it self inshalalh’

    LOL – Sounds pretty silly as well as hypocritical (since you are SO against nukes and the damage they do). IF God was willing for them to be safeguarded they would have NO need for weapons of any kind.

  7. @**Bella-Vita**

    Ironic isnt it? they thik they are their best buds still….

    THough they fully support the nuclear terrorist isreal and not sudis that gave them ooil to the core

    @Sandy ,

    No one launches them , they are a kidna deterrence .

    @jerry

    This is regional politics and its beyond your understanding shias hate saudis to the core and yes iran wants to dictate policies in the midest ..
    .
    As far as pakistan is concerned yes it is peaceful than terrorist nuclear isreal that doesnt deserve nukes ..

    To balance the power saudis must get nukes .. saudis neve gone for war like other terrorist nations they deserve it and they msut work towards developping thier defence system

  8. Ana, “Saudis never gone for war like other terrorist nations”

    So Islam and promoting “fight them until they submit” doesn’t count, hummm?

    Leave Israel alone. The Israelis are fighting for their lives. Most of them believe, as I do, that Muslims would kill and slaughter every jew if they had a chance, after raping the women. It is that bad! Gosh I wonder where they got that idea? Oh by the way, speaking of sexual assault, Journalist Mona Eltahawy – a Muslim I admire – was sexually assaulted in Cairo. Another.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/24/journalist-mona-eltahawy-detained-cairo
    Some Arab spring. Remember my words back in February. BTW, this was the same woman that was groped inside the Masjid al-haram (that is where the Kaaba is, icydk).

    Also I asked you before to be more careful about throwing the word “terrorist” around, and of course, you did not answer my question why Bush was one but your prophet was not.

  9. @Lynn
    had you understood you would have been like your daughter

    nevemid.

    some are born kafir and die kafir..

    Do you expect jesus to come and protect you and amreica and sit on every nuke and go and kill people when its launched..

    oh geezuz is dead on cross ..

  10. @Hindi
    If you think “no one” ever uses them then you don’t know your history very well. They are a waste of time and resources that could be used to develop a nations people. They want them for one of two reasons- to use them- or for the sake of vanity. They are not a deterrence when all the countries are right next to each other. And they are an ongoing responsiblity to keep safe.

    No country “deserves” nuclear weapons. They either put in the time, money and intelligence or they don’t.

  11. @ana – ‘had you understood you would have been like your daughter’

    You mean a crazy bitch? What makes you think I’m NOT like her?
    LOL

    don’t waste your time trying to throw ‘geezuz’ on me, I’m not a Christian. 😉

  12. FYI for whoever cares- Ana Hindi means “I am Indian”-masculine form. So he probably doesn’t want to be called “Ana”. Unless of course he’s a woman whose first name is Ana and last is Hindi- but I don’t think so.

    @Lynn, I’m glad you’re not like your daughter- and I hope in time she will mellow and become more like you. (not that I think you are particularly mellow 😀 but you know what I mean)

  13. @jac

    THats what is called ignorance ..

    ‘So Islam and promoting “fight them until they submit” doesn’t count, hummm?”‘ —these are parts of a concent that are pulled out to show we say kill till they submit .. this was when the kuffar attacked us and we gought back … had this been applied generally ,, then there would have not been a single arab nonmuslim alive ….there are many arab nonmuslims well .. know before you say what you say

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/08/although_she_was_acquitted_last.html

    “‘But during Moore’s interview, which took place in the couple’s bedroom, the officer allegedly groped her breast and gave her his home phone number.

    In August, Moore filed a complaint about the officer’s conduct and agreed to meet with Internal Affairs at police headquarters. According to activists close to the case, she arrived with her boyfriend, who intended to serve as a witness, but IA officials immediately told him to go home or wait for Moore at McDonalds.

    During the meeting, IA authorities insisted that she drop her complaint because the officer in question was “a good guy.” Frustrated, Moore pressed “record” on her BlackBerry and captured the officers’ stonewalling. “I think this is something we can handle, without having to go through this process and even have you come in…” an officer says on the recording. “If all you want is to make sure he doesn’t bother you again, we can almost guarantee that given that we’re going to be able to speak to his superiors.”

    When investigators realized that Moore was recording, they arrested and charged her —for eavesdropping. In Illinois, which has particularly stringent eavesdropping laws, recording a police officer without his or her consent is a Class 1 felony that carries a maximum sentence of 15 years.

    The charges smacked of retribution, but Illinois States Attorney Anita Alvarez refused to drop the case against Moore, who ultimately spent two weeks in jail as she raised bail money. And while Moore invoked her right to a speedy trial, the case had about a year’s worth of continuances. In the interim, Moore’s pro bono attorney, Robert Johnson, and activists including the founders of the Chicago Taskforce on Violence Against Girls and Women, raised awareness. The resulting media coverage often described Moore as a “former stripper”—which is true, but irrelevant to the case at hand.

    In an effort to compel the states attorney to drop the charges, the Taskforce launched an online petition that garnered well over 3,000 signatures. In early August, the grassroots organization’s members wrote the name of each signee on an index card and delivered the cards to the states attorney’s office.”‘

    what the hell is this drama ..oh its casual and she spent in jail without her fault ,, this is common ..when something is rare it has to be pointed out .

    well we have nothing as you feel agasint jews.. its just they leave our land peacefully ,.that was give to them by the brits and armeicans

    “‘A occupied land for a borrowed period of time”‘

    Bush killed innocent people, prophets are prophet like jesus was a great prophet but unfortunately he is made god and was killed on cross ,,,
    his followers love him to be dead oncross no wonder if such are followers of jesus ..they cant find a difference between a terrorist like bush and a prophet who never killed

    i think its the biased media and the wrong information that makes islam look bad …
    the quraan says killing a innocent human is like killing whole humanity..islam is agaisnt killing innocents ,, unlike amreica that kills innocents for oil..

    well there is no comparision aremica will be gone soon inshaallah and islam will be for every

  14. @Sandy – I thought that was what the name meant. If he’s concerned about what he’s called he should choose a name, eh? 😉

    ‘and I hope in time she will mellow and become more like you’

    HA! That’s her worst nightmare! lmao!

  15. @Ana..”Ironic isnt it? they thik they are their best buds still….
    THough they fully support the nuclear terrorist isreal and not sudis that gave them ooil to the core”..actually i wish saudi wud break off all relations with them but that won’t happen any time soon…King Feizal (allah have mercy on his soul) was killed whilst trying to do just that..

    @Jay: “Leave Israel alone. The Israelis are fighting for their lives.”
    Stop having a cry about israel..yeah i really see them fighting for their lives here…maybe back in nazi germany..but now the only thing they fight over is more palestinian land..and yes those who support the idea of israel’s existence at the expense of palestinians and the crazy zionists supremacist ideas ARE terrorists..

  16. @Lynn

    “and I hope in time she will mellow and become more like you’

    HA! That’s her worst nightmare! lmao!”

    SHe became a muslim and you couldnt stop her ..oh she became a muslim at 12 ..she gave up her fathers religion oop she hates it so much alhumdulillah

    She is your worse nightmare ..she wouldnt be bothering what you are she knows you will rot in hell..

    She wouldnt want to be more like you like a kafir like you!!

    I dont want kafirs to understand what i call my self its in arabic and i want arabic readers to read it !!

    @sandy

    imagine a country has all resources and is well has high GDP etc ..

    And it cant defend it self from its enemies ..whats the use of such development..

    you are wrong you dont seem to see the importance of military power and nukes .

    Threats and name calling are not appreciated here, next time your comment will be edited and you will be put in moderation. If you cannot discuss while staying within the bounds of polite behavior you have no place in this forum.
    Moderator

  17. @Hindi,
    You mean like Canada?

  18. “Leave Israel alone. The Israelis are fighting for their lives.”
    Stop having a cry about israel..yeah i really see them fighting for their lives here…maybe back in nazi germany..but now the only thing they fight over is more palestinian land..and yes those who support the idea of israel’s existence at the expense of palestinians and the crazy zionists supremacist ideas ARE terrorists..

    exactly , so true .**Bella-Vita**

  19. @Moderater,
    Is it acceptable for posters to come on here and call people “Kaffir” and tell them they are going to rot in hell?

    I hope not.

  20. Sweden, Dennmark, Holland, Austria, Ireland, Japan, Switzerland, Germany- all places I’d rather live than nuclear Pakistan which hasn’t taken care of it’s people- and put weapons it doesn’t need, over food for it’s people and peace with it’s neighbors.

  21. @ana -‘She wouldnt want to be more like you like a kafir like you!!’

    Which is why I said it would be her worst nightmare. DUH!

    Oh, and she didn’t give up her father’s religion either since he didn’t have one.

    ‘SHe became a muslim and you couldnt stop her ..’

    I didn’t TRY to stop her. We didn’t believe in indoctrinating our kids into their beliefs like you do. All we did was try to moderate her and get her to at least try to be a ‘peace loving All American Muslim’ but alas, she went and read the stupid Quran and learned a different Islam than the ones that the ‘majority’ of Muslims live.

    @Sandy – Don’t worry about the kaffir remark. Any good kaffir worth their salt KNOWS that hell is not something to worry about. 😉

  22. “prophets are prophet like jesus was a great prophet but unfortunately he is made god and was killed on cross ,,,
    his followers love him to be dead”

    Um, what? Oh maybe you forgot this thing called Easter Sunday when most Christians celebrate Jesus rising from the dead. So it’s not that we love for him to be dead, rather we celebrate the fact he conquered death and gave eternal life.

  23. Lynn, on November 25, 2011 at 6:07 pm said:

    @ana – ‘had you understood you would have been like your daughter’

    You mean a crazy bitch? What makes you think I’m NOT like her?
    LOL

    Yes calling some one a bitch is polite ..

  24. Sandy, on November 25, 2011 at 7:02 pm said:

    @Moderater,
    Is it acceptable for posters to come on here and call people “Kaffir” and tell them they are going to rot in hell?

    I hope not.

    I just seriously dont understand why people feel hurt when they are called kafir.

    If you dont like being called a kafir then become a muslim.

    Lynn, on November 25, 2011 at 7:17 pm said:

    @ana -’She wouldnt want to be more like you like a kafir like you!!’

    Which is why I said it would be her worst nightmare. DUH!

    Oh, and she didn’t give up her father’s religion either since he didn’t have one.

    ‘SHe became a muslim and you couldnt stop her ..’

    I didn’t TRY to stop her. We didn’t believe in indoctrinating our kids into their beliefs like you do. All we did was try to moderate her and get her to at least try to be a ‘peace loving All American Muslim’ but alas, she went and read the stupid Quran and learned a different Islam than the ones that the ‘majority’ of Muslims live.

    lol @ different islam …

  25. @Sandy,

    “@Moderater,
    Is it acceptable for posters to come on here and call people “Kaffir” and tell them they are going to rot in hell?
    I hope not.”

    I do not think stopping Hindi is needed. It is important that all readers see what the Dogma of religion can produce. He is just following the literal interpretation of the dogma taught to most Muslim.

    Note Christians are not immune from this. Ex. the God hates Fags signs, which are becoming more common. The difference is just in percentages.

    Sorry Sandy, but Hindi is just providing an insight into what many Muslim feel, he is just less wise than others who feel they should hide it to present a friendlier version of Islam. Note also that the influence he has on others to speak out about their true feelings.

    Regarding the topic, Pakistan developed its Bomb using a boat load of Saudi money. What is not clear yet is whether the Pakistani’s will be willing to hand them a gift wrapped one when requested to do so!!!

  26. @Hindi,
    You didn’t call me a Kaffir. And people don’t like being called Kaffir because the Muslims that do it- intend it to be insulting.

  27. @MoQ,
    I don’t so much mind Hindi exposing himself for who he is, and providing insight to how some Muslims think- I just don’t like that a real person gets publically insulted when he does so. I wouldn’t allow it in my home or in my blog- but it isn’t my blog or my decision. I just gave my opinion as you did yours.

    I think I knew that Saudi had funded it- but had forgotten. I think they would have been better off helping educate and build infrastructure rather than weapons that they may not be able to call upon- depending on which flavour of the month is in charge when they need it. Of course, fixing the infrastructure and education in their own country would be an even better use of their money.

  28. ‘…but Hindi is just providing an insight into what many Muslim feel, he is just less wise than others who feel they should hide it to present a friendlier version of Islam..

    I agree completely! And yes, ana a great BIG LOL @ ‘Different Islam’ We all know there is only one it’s just that the smart ones try to hide the truth of it. 🙂

  29. hhmmm yes we think ..we should give others lands to jews

    we think we should invade others countreis saying there are “WMD”

    and when we speak …we are exposing ourself .we are terrorists etc

  30. Yes ana, you do expose yourself, and I for one like it. I like to know what people really think, and what the measure of their hearts is.
    This makes it possible to evaluate people and put them and their doctrines in the right place.

  31. @Lynn, actually I think there ARE different Islams. For example the Sufi’s are very different from the Wahabbi/Salafi types. But the Wahabbi/Salafi types would agree with you that there is only one Islam. They just declare everyone who sees it differently than they do as outside of Islam. It’s a neat trick. If a scholar says something different than the Wahabbi norm- they just kick them out. It’s how they keep “consensus” on things.

  32. @Sandy…

    consensus AND closed minded!

  33. @Sandy,

    ” They just declare everyone who sees it differently than they do as outside of Islam.”

    You make it sound like the Salafis/Wahabbis just make this stuff up. At issue is they do find plenty of evidence in the Dogma to support their narrative. That is all what matters. They win support from the likes of Hindi because the Dogma is there. As long as the texts of the religion exist and people believe them you will always have these issues.

    On the other hand, would Islam be a religion without the Dogma. Hence, this is why I do not think Islam can be reformed.

  34. ‘At issue is they do find plenty of evidence in the Dogma to support their narrative. ‘

    That’s the bottom line and there is NO getting past that.

  35. @MoQ and Lynn,
    I understand that you see it that way. And my co-religionists and what you view as dogma confirm it to you- and I understand that. But others have valid documentation as well for their views. And though, no matter what, there will always be a few destructive people (as there are in anything), I believe a reformation is possible. Anyway- I hope I am right and you are wrong about that!

  36. ahem ahem…. Every nation should give up those horrific weapons IF world leaders can not leave those technologies THAN every nation should build their own nuclear weapons. Because now a days its honourable to have the power……

    I will build my own nuclear weapon plant, and I will only allow the under developing countries to buy them at lower price lolzzz

  37. hello hindi,
    🙂 my dear bro read the Hadith below,

    Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.” (Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

    NEVER EVER CALL ANY ONE KAFFIR. YOU DONT HAVE THR RIGHTS TO DO SO.

  38. @Gladiator – ‘Because now a days its honourable to have the power……’

    Actually no, it is not. Any old dog can have a weapon but that does NOT give him honor. That seems to be a common theme in your part of the world and I think that’s a shame.

    ‘…it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him’

    But what if he IS what you call him? Then it’s ok? I am not a believer so I guess there is nothing wrong with him calling me that and we know that the kaffir rots in hell soooo…. What’s the problemo?

    It’s too bad that, in all his wisdom, the prophet couldn’t have ended that with something more akin to …but it reflects back on him as no one is to judge but Allah. Too bad it didn’t say something peaceful like that, eh? Oh well, it is what it is.

  39. here is joke for you Lynn!
    I read the joke some where on net probably in a wap site.
    teacher: you all should know that the Pen has the power to change the world and it is honorable to be writer.

    Lil john: but sir, if you switch on the televised we will see Weapon are changing the world and those countries are powerful who has the weapons!

    teacher: what??

    Lil john: yeah, there are lot of writers in Palastine but Israel is superior from them because they have the Weapon power!

    Lynn my dear friend Switch on the television…….

    Btw am against the nuclear war. If america is willing to establish a world of peace than it should give up the nuclear weapon at first.

  40. @gladiator -‘… teacher: you all should know that the Pen has the power to change the world and it is honorable to be writer.’

    Well, I don’t agree with THAT either. There has been much written that has been the complete OPPOSITE of ‘honorable’. Never heard of Mein Kampf ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

  41. ” Never heard of Mein Kampf ?”

    Or holy books?

  42. ‘Or holy books?’

    I figured that was a given 😉

  43. @Hind – You were out of line in deliberately attacking an individual rather than attacking an opinion…and actually, opinions are to be debated.

    @Lynn – I know what was said did not offend YOU but there is no need to accept or encourage such actions.

    Mother Hen Bedu

  44. @Carol – I have found that allowing mere words or opinions to offend you is actually the BEST encouragement for those who behave that way.

  45. Hey Lynn….I am trying to run a diplomatic blog here! (smile)

  46. You should know by now that diplomacy doesn’t work! 😉

  47. If i remember right Obama signed a treaty saying the US would reduce its nuclear arsenal by a certain date. Iran getting nuclear bombs would really be bad for that region. Something has to be done. The Obama administration hasn’t been too buddy buddy with Netahnayu so I wonder about our ability to work to stop Israel from doing something. I hope we do not get drawn into another war. 😦 Iraq and Afghanistan are enough for my generation.

    @Moq
    Do you really think Islam can’t be reformed? No enlightenment period for the middle east?

  48. “Sorry Sandy, but Hindi is just providing an insight into what many Muslim feel, he is just less wise than others who feel they should hide it to present a friendlier version of Islam. ”

    “We all know there is only one it’s just that the smart ones try to hide the truth of it. ”

    So those who present their faith in a truthful light are “less wise” and not the “smart ones”.?????..strange really…why should people lie to make things seem friendlier? Ure dammed if u do and dammed if u don’t..on one hand we got ppl saying..awww ure sugar coating Islam and covering up how evil it is and on the other hand we got someone saying ure too dumb for not presenting the “friendlier version of Islam”.
    Explanation..

  49. @onigirifb “The Obama administration hasn’t been too buddy buddy with Netahnayu ”
    Like the Obama admin call all the shots..Obama has his hands tied with that crazy ass Netanyahu..Israel defiantly wears the pants in that relationship

  50. @Lynn – la howla qota la billah.

  51. Pardon? lol

  52. @Bella Vita,

    It is a statement that indicates that Islamic dogma teaches hate for others. Most Muslims try to hide it and present it in a way that is acceptable to outsiders. Actually, I am glad that you and Hindi exist so others can see the religion for what it is.

    By the way I feel that all Abrahamic religions have their share of bloody hateful dogma.

    Please continue on with your rants; the more you do it, the less I have to explain the hateful message of the religion that other Muslims try to hide behind their intellectual acrobatics. Same goes to Hindi!!!

    @Onigiri,

    You know I have had the same position for a long time. I do not think Islam can be reformed for the simple fact that the Quran is viewed as the unedited and uncorrupt word of god, which is sent for all humans for all times. It is a requirement of Islam to believe in the book in its entirety.

    Now that is not to say that Muslims cannot be decent and humane. I know many of them that are. The less religious they are the more that applies.

  53. Personal attacks on this blog happen all the damn time…Mother hen bedu does not always step in and stop it. Shame too because it really corrupts the entire atmostphere…and makes the attacker sound like a pissy little girl (boy) who never learned proper manners…but then again..that’s probably true.

  54. You tell’em, Red!

  55. “You mean a crazy bitch? What makes you think I’m NOT like her?”

    Hah.

  56. Today 20/20 did a piece about the Westboro Baptist Church. These people with their “belief in scripture” are truly disgusting. They teach hate to babies. MoQ’s statement about the more religious they are is true…I’d like to add the more dogmatic they are too the more true it is.

    When WBC was protesting, people actually chased them down the street and beat on their cars to drive them away they were so disgusted by the hate. They wanted them out of their neighborhood. One couple disowned their 24 year old daughter. She is not allowed in their home because she saw hypocrisy and conflicts and she had the nerve to question and point it out. She was told to get out of the church ( her parents voted her out) and out of her home.

    What struck me abut this piece is how much it looks like radical islam…I say radical because lots of muslims ignore the dogma as do many christians. But what really struck me is I wondered if people had acted the same way to the muslim equivalent of WBC what would hav happened? Would they have been labeled Islamophobe? Would fellow Muslims go after the radical ones like these people went after WBC? The other thing that kept running through my head is why is it OK to expose the WBC (which I think they should be shown for the despicable people they are) but why can we not do it for Islam? Why should Islam be off limits to criticism by anyone including Muslims themselves? All the PC networks would not show it…and if they did a lot of folks would complain no doubt. Extremism should be exposed no matter the faith.

  57. @Oby..go for it

  58. Carol : Hey Lynn….I am trying to run a diplomatic blog here! (smile)

    Lynn: You should know by now that diplomacy doesn’t work!

    Carol : @Lynn – la howla qota la billah.

    Hahahaha Rofl..

    Lolzzzz

  59. @Coolred, et al: I’ll be the first to admit I’m away from the blog more than I am on. I write posts in advance to keep the blog going but day to day treatments can interfere with my ability to keep up with comments. Not asking for sympathy but just telling it like it is.

  60. RE: Mein Kampf

    The very title of Herr Hitler’s tome means “My Struggle” in English. One could even entitle this book “My Jihad” and this Islamic term would have the same precise meaning. “Kampf” in a Nazi ideological context and “Jihad” in the Islamic one are almost identical.

    That in itself goes a long way to explaining why ‘Mein Kampf’ is still such a best seller in current times all over the Islamic World, including in supposedly ‘moderate’ Islamic states like Turkey.

    http://www.islam-watch.org/Larry/First-Final-Solution-of-Jews-of-Muhammad-Koran.htm

  61. @Ana H.,
    FIrst of all, your knowledge of Islam as a religion is severely lacking. It sounds very ignorant when you make fun of one of your own prophets (Jesus) who is supposed to be as great a prophet as Moses and Mohammed.

    Secondly, Shi’a people are Muslims. There are Shi’a Muslims in Saudi that are happy to be Saudi citizens. Please do not confuse religion with politics.

    Thirdly, “people of the book” such as Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and others that believe in One God are not supposed to go to hell (fiery lake, whatever). If you thought Lynn was Christian and was going to end up there, then you obviously need to read the Qu’ran more.

    I recommend reading the original Arabic text, or as close as you can get to one because there are a lot of translations out there that twist the meaning of the original words. There are some that don’t. This of course only matters in the case where there is an Arabic word that is a bit ambiguous or a verse that is unclear. Then, in the process of translating it, the translator may take the verse to mean what they think it means rather than leaving it open to interpretation. Or at least, this is my understanding based on what I’ve learned and read about various translations on line.

    As a side note, the term “crazy bitch” can have a different contextual meaning depending on how you use it in the U.S. and sometimes can be meant as a compliment. I recommend referring to urbandictionary.com for more information.

  62. People are such a big hypoctie ,,,,, when they speak its freespeach and they can say what every they like .

    and

    when we say , its exposing its hatrated ?

    When they hate islam ind reidiclule islam its NOT hate ?HUH

  63. People are such a big hypocrite ,,,,, when they speak its freespeech and they can say what every they like .

    and

    when we say , its exposing its hatred ?

    When they hate islam and reidiclule islam its NOT hate ?HUH

  64. @MoQ…

    I have read chunks of the quran but not the whole thing. I wanted to pose this question to you since you are an native arabic speaker and above said that arabs say one thing to nonarabs and another to arabs (I am paraphrasing). I thought you might be the best informed on this. After this thread I would like to get a quran that maintains as much of the arabic (nonwatered down version) as possible while still being written in English so I can understand. I am not looking to convert but want to read the most closely translated/faithful version to the arabic version. Muslims seem to say you must be able to understand arabic to understand the quran…well learning arabic is not going to happen in my case, but I am interested in seeing for myself what the arabic version says…without sugar coating, sweetness and light, or changes. Which version do you reccomend being closest to the arabic quran? Thank you…

  65. @Ana Hindi,

    You’re a confused person.

    Free speech means you are allowed the opportunity to share your thoughts. It does not mean we have to agree with you. As a matter of a fact our free speech allows us to say what we feel about the thoughts you chose to share with us.

    So again, I am exercising my free speech to let you and everyone else know what I think about the ideas you share here. When you call people Kaffirs and threaten them with your version of a god sending them to hell, it is not civil, friendly, nor loving. As a matter of a fact it is damn hateful.

    The fact that you believe such ideas came from an imaginary friend in the sky who decided to give such wisdom to an uneducated warlord 1400 years ago, does make your argument any better, neither does it compel us to accept such nonsense. Quite the opposite it just make you sound more delusional.

    By the way you mentioned earlier, that you use the name Ana Hindi for the Arabic readers. I want to clue you in about how Arabs view Indians. It saddens me to tell you that your fellow Arabic Muslims in general view Indians as lower than them. As a matter of fact in most gulf countries the Hindi title is used as an insult. So realize that your arrogance and prejudices, when talking to the “Kuffars” just played into the prejudices Arabs have against you.

  66. @Oby,

    I have not compared translations of Quran.

    However, I do not think it matters. Quran is not an easy book to understand even in Arabic. Some Muslims will claim it is because of the superior writings. I think it is because of the poor quality of the original writers who could not produce something which can be easily comprehended. Muslim rely on on something called Tafsir to get a good common understanding of the Quran.

    Tafsir is an interpretation of the classic Quran into Arabic for the average person. It relies on the Quran, Hadith (to put the verses into context) and scholarly works to explain the rules found in the verses. The most used Tafsir is the works of Ibn Kathir. You are much better off reading an English translation of his books than the Quran directly even if you knew Arabic well.

  67. Thanks MoQ…I appreciate the explanation. I will look up or purchase the tafsir of Ibn Kathir. Your comment about the poor quality of writing seems logically accurate to me. Someone even wrote on the blog about how it was written/revealed in classical arabic and without knowledge of that you don’t really get it. Well, why would Allah reveal the quran in the highest form of arabic to a man who was illiterate and couldn’t possibly understand it never mind translate it for the masses. Anyway…good to know that info. Again, thanks.

  68. Oby, I’m guessing that Mohammed would have been able to understand his own language it’s just that the language has changed over the years and NOW the Arabs don’t speak that way and that is why it might be difficult for them to understand.

  69. @oby,

    Just to clarify. There was no unique higher form of Arabic which the Quran was written in. Actually, Arabic at the time was an unorganized language. There were no grammar rules, nor was the writing of the language standardized. Quran was simply relayed in verbal communications using the local dialect of the time.

    When the Quran was written initially it was using primitive letters. More formal writing was not developed until a century after the prophet with the work of Ibn Iba Ishag. Further, Arabic did not acquire full grammatical rules until a century and a half after the prophet with the work of Sibuyeh.

    In summary the notion of a higher more sophisticated Arabic existing at the time of the prophet is just a fallacy.

    It is common for Muslims to argue that the Quran is written in such a sophisticated form in Arabic that only the best trained scholars can understand it. That what you read is just interpretations which do not capture the real meaning, etc. It is all arguments used to deter outsiders from questioning the Quran.

  70. MoQ..

    Thanks…that is very very interesting history. Given what you have said, it seems to me logically that it is a near impossibility, given how the language has changed, that the Quran we have today is in it’s most perfect unchanged, originally revealed form as it is claimed to be. I am aware that there were several qurans originally which I believed were destroyed by Uthman leaving only his behind. (I read this in researching it a long time back and it was discussed on AB). I find this extremely interesting from an anthropological viewpoint.

    So the Quran has no magical language or high falutin’ grammar to understand it? That is comforting to know. So I can read it myself and get it even though I am not an arabic scholar. Maybe the writers should have been a little clearer about what Allah actually wants…or perhaps Allah should have seen this ongoing debate coming!

  71. oby….the orignial quran did not have all those little umlats (dots and dashes type signifiers above and below the letters)…there were so many different arabic dialects at the time of the prophet that everyone read/recited the quran however their dialect was. Those umlats were created to universalize the reading of the quran into one dialect because (as Moq said) arabic was a mish mash with no set grammar rules. Arabs were travellers for trade so their arabic was infused with a lot of words and whatnot from other places…nothing special or divine about it. I’m fairly sure that when Uthman destroyed all other versions of the quran leaving only his behind..what he actually left behind was his own (and I would assume the prophets as well) dialect complete with umlats etc. Whose to say his version was the correct and only way to read it?

  72. Coolred…

    Very good point. It seems to me to be a political move. Uthman wanting his version to be the only version. So when we hear people say it was very high level arabic, is that what they have been told…a story passed down from generation to generation? If the Prophet revealed it in an Arabic PRIOR to the umlats you mentioned and arabic was not a cohesive language yet, it would seem as if it was revealed in a less advanced arabic rather than an advanced one as we hear said. Perhaps it became advanced only after the umlats were added…which I am guessing would take people without the benefit of regular education quite awhile to grasp. Therefore they needed to believe what they were told rather than read it for themselves perhaps? Taking that forward, if one was not sure of what the quran was saying prior to the umlats or due to the umlats or if the umlats changed the meaning then the quran as we know it today could have had different connotations/subtle shifts in meaning that have been lost.

    I heard years ago that they had reinterpreted one of the Ten Commandments from “Thou shall not kill” to “thou shall not murder”. The words Kill and murder being the same action/result but will different intents. Subtle but different. Whose to say Uthamn’s quran doesn’t do the same thing with wordplay? (as you said)

  73. Oby, your recent comments remind me of something I vaguely remember Samer telling me about Arabic grammar. Did he tell me when they were trying to standardize it, if “they” had questions, they would ask the Bedouins and write whatever they said? Oh, now I have to ask him again. MoQ and Coolred and your comments have brought this to mind, but not clearly obviously! Who knew the Language of Heaven was Bedouin talk? 🙂

    I find this discussion so interesting really! I read a version of the Quran last year (the local library’s copy) and many times it mentioned music and/or singing. When I’d make mention of this on my blog, a Muslim would often tell me that was an incorrect translation. Apparently she believed music was haram. :-/

  74. I said above: “Leave Israel alone. The Israelis are fighting for their lives. Most of them believe, as I do, that Muslims would kill and slaughter every jew if they had a chance”.

    The next day, the news reports: “A Muslim revival at Cairo’s most prominent mosque Friday that drew 5,000 worshippers reportedly turned into a hate-fueled rally, complete with repeated vows to “one day kill all the Jews.”

    The link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-holds-anti-semetic-rally-draws-thousands-cairo-top-mosque-vowing-day-kill-jews-article-1.982830?localLinksEnabled=false

    And I good? Am I psychic? or do I just know my Muslims?

    It gets worse, there are the same people that say “Faith in Allah is the basis for everything” – well, faith in Allah doesn’t plant rice, it doesn’t make bread, it doesn’t sew clothes and it doesn’t even take out the trash. No wonder the Muslim world is a mess. It seems that to most Muslims, the answer to every problem (often caused by islam), is more Islam. Way to go, Pedro Bo.

  75. I am glad to see you guys got off on a tangent with a civil discussion of Arabic linguistics and quranic history. Much better! It was getting to be a rough neighborhood there for a while.

    For a while I though mother Carol was going to have to step in and send you all off to bed without dinner.

  76. Jay acting all innocent 😀

  77. Question for Carol:

    How long did it take to hit 1,000,000 hits? What date? And 2,000,000? and we know that 3,000,000 was about 11/23-24.

  78. Re: Koran Translations

    I checked out a copy of koran from our local library a few months back …. The Koran: A Monotheist Translation … which is quite “different” (strange?) from the other dozen or so translated korans that I have studied. It has NO commentary in either the parenthesis or the footnotes or the sidebars.

    The intro states that it “is the result of a group effort by people who do not belong to any denomination, and, for the first time in many centuries, are simply proud to call themselves “Muslims” submitting to God alone …. letting the text speak for itself and delivering to the reader a rendition of the pure message of the Qur’an which is in itself a ‘fully detailed’ Book.”. Obviously they don’t believe in hadith which was “invented” 200-300 centuries after prophet’s death, or so they claim.

    It is also available online:

    http://free-minds.org/sites/default/files/quran.pdf

  79. Re: Koran Translations

    Another “unique” translation of the koran that I have read is by an indian muslim doctor: Koran As It Explains Itself. According to this translator, koran was revealed in prophet’s koraishi tribal dialect. He undertook the effort to learn this dialect from saudi bedouins and then translated the koran into english.

    It is also available online:

    http://ourbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/admin2/2010/11/QXP200808iv.pdf

  80. @Jay – I started this blog in 2006 over on MySpace and then in Oct 2007 gravitated over to wordpress. I found this nifty tool within wordpress which gives statistical data:

    Months and Years Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov DecTotal 2007

    9145,4638,25614,633200812,72613,50119,12216,42521,45123,13525,52931,760 33,13333,79836,74344,759312,082200955,26051,94366,14858,69758,23758,156 62,06661,61966,85373,94065,31362,632740,864201068,13466,99271,69868,240 83,87676,25476,20389,70385,16987,15386,36577,298937,085201177,75575,640 85,24074,58086,00589,89887,452137,36496,240106,227103,699 1,020,100

  81. Oby, there is also a theory that the earlier Qurans were written in Syro-Aramaic not Arabian. Syro-Aramaic was the lingua franca of that time. It’s the language everybody in the region spoke. Certainly somebody who worked for an international trading business, as Mohammed worked for Kadisha, would speak it. A lot of the weird and incomprehensible passages become more understandable when taking that theory into account. Which means that a lot of the Quran was translated from Syro Aramaic by people who weren’t very knowledgeable, and so translated stuff a bit wrong here and there, in Arabic.
    Quran experts from the far past were aware of, and made list of the many non-arabic words used in the Quran.
    (houri, meaning ”grape” being translated into ”virgin”)

    And lastly, the oldest Qurans found show pages being scraped and newer versions written down over the earlier version, so there certainly was change over the years.

  82. Aafke…

    It seems to me I heard that about the Bible as well..the NT I mean. Jesus’ language was aramaic as the apostles so it makes sense it would have been written in that language and then translated.

    I did not know about the oldest qurans being scraped and newer ones laid down. If that is true how can it be said with any degree of certainty that it is unadulterated from revealing to present day? Very interesting.

  83. All of the religious books have been altered by man imo. Muslims give the same reason that a lot of Christians do about the bible. God/Allah would not have allowed his bible/quran to be corrupted.

    Moq – I forgot we had that conversation. I wonder if the internet is going to affect Islam. Like the printing press did for Christianity. Muslims are being exposed to multiple different interpretations of Islam. You don’t see a Martin Luther type person doing what he did for Christianity? Then again it does seem that the Saudi/salafi/wahhabbi type of Islam has taken over from the different interpretations of Islam out there. Perhaps you are right.

  84. Oby, the first bibles were in Greek, later translated in Latin, hence the mistake that Maria was a virgin; that was a mistranslation of the Greek ”young woman” into the Latin ”Virgin”.
    Isn’t Maria a virgin in the Quran as well? That would mean that this virgin mistake was plagiarized in the Quran, so the Christians in that area used Latin bibles.
    Which proves again that religions are based on earlier religions and blindly copy their mistakes.

  85. I think you are wrong there Aafke. I don’t think they got the idea that Mary was a virgin from one mistranslated word.

    http://biblia.com/books/esv/Lk1.34-38

  86. I have also read that virgin was mistranslated…but Im not that into the bible so didn’t really pay attention to where I read it. Certainly would throw the whole “jesus was born of a miracle” into question…then again…the existence of jesus has been thrown into question (quite reliably) so this is just a small detail within the bigger picture.

  87. @Onigiri

    “All of the religious books have been altered by man imo. Muslims give the same reason that a lot of Christians do about the bible. God/Allah would not have allowed his bible/quran to be corrupted. ”

    All of these books have been written by men imo, and crafted to serve their purposes. Yeah, God would allow terrible wars and disfiguring diseases and massive death and suffering, no problem, but changes in the book? oh no!! I’ll bring down freakin’ thunder and lightning before that happens. Ridiculous.

  88. @NN – ‘but changes in the book? oh no!! I’ll bring down freakin’ thunder and lightning before that happens. Ridiculous.’

    Seriously! lol

  89. I don’t think it is in there best interest to get involved by use of the military. I have read a lot about the Iranian people and they sound as though they are rational and educated. It’s their leadership that sucks. If the US has learned anything I hope they learn that military actions are not as effective in this arena. I believe proproganda to sway the public will be far more effective. I think the old saying the pen is mighter than the sword works in this situation. It also has to be done in a matter that doesn’t alienate the people and show that they are victims of their government as well as others are victims of their actions. I think it should be the Islamic countries that do this and US stays out. All this is going to do is galvanize the people and focus their attention on the American Satan. You know the usual tactic that re-focuses the attention of the people away from thier actually problems and turns it toward the west. Granted the west has caused problems but I think many countries have decided to throw every problem they have on the door step of the west.

    Coolred38/Aafke-Art:

    Isaiah 7:14 as noting that “the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.” The new version refers to “the young woman” rather than a virgin. – Changed this year.

    Religion is great to study for purposes of history. I find it fasinating. My finding it so fasinating is also the reason that I have no belief in it as the word of God but of man.

    In the Old testament God can’t defeat an iron chariot. There is actually two sets of 10 commandments and two accounts of how the earth began. Of course you will get those who try so hard to explain it away. I always love those who say it is the literal word of God except here, here and here. Oh, not there either. Oh, he meant this instead. The literal word is easy to understand but wait let me translate that for you. It just kills me. I like that Jesus actually never said he was the son of God but the son of man. Check out the red highlighted areas of the bible in the four gospels to see that. It also states he was the first born. To me that says, Mary had other children. Of course the Bible has placed administrative instructions (letters) for churches on how to deal with issues particular to that church that have been canonized and now applies to all Christians. Interesting, huh. The part about women being quiet in church and to ask their husbands was actually a letter given to a church that was having problems with Dianian followers and the women were getting rowdy. It was only meant for that church. Love how that got twisted. There is the apostle “Junia” (female) changed to “Junias” male. That was during the 12th century mainly because it contradicted the whole keep women in their place. It is amazing what you learn if you study a lot of the scholars and read their books. Too many times you have quarterbacks out there using these books for there own selfish reasons completely out of context or historical reference. They aslo fail to show the large number of contradictions and cherry pick.

  90. Obviously I do not agree with the ‘kaffir’ slur, but reading the response to ana that the use of the term plays into Arabs prejudice they have against Indians, sorry I can’t help but wonder if the person is assuming that only Arabs could call non-Muslims that, I guess in other words because an Indian said it, it does not carry weight, as it would an Arab??? Why not discourage (at least on AB) the word from all parties than, argue who has the ‘right’ to the word, as it is implied here.

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