Saudi Arabia: Watch Out for the Hai’a (Muttawa)

 

A memo from Lebanese Embassy to warn its citizen in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

The Hai’a (Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice) has been recently given the full support from the ministry of Interior and following decisions have been taken:
–          Approval from the minister of Interior for all Hai’a personnel to enter all Cafes, cabins and closed boxes
–          Civilian Women will be deployed to support the Hai’a
–          Civilian Men will be deployed to support the Hai’a
–          Malls will be highly monitored through cameras to avoid harassments
–          Birthdays and all kind of festivities will be banned in cafes and restaurants
–          Secret cars will be deployed by Hai’a
–          Universities, Colleges and schools will be monitored
–          All female cafes within the city will be closed
–          Measurements will be taken against any woman who doesn’t cooperate with the Hai’a
–          Saudi Single Women accommodation will be cancelled
–          Phone calls will be monitored
–          Monitor all camp outs and crowds to avoid any mixture

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422 Responses

  1. Might as well be in prison.

  2. Wow. Even a police state would be a better place to live. All I can say is they can’t stop everyone for running for the border. Go luck, getting running shoes.

  3. I have to wonder though what is concerning Saudi so much as they keep getting more and more restrictive. This government is really fearful of something or it is trying to take the attention off something else. The question is what.

  4. This is not ”baby steps forward”, this is giant steps backward.
    How utterly depressing.

  5. I agree with Aafke. This is terrible.

  6. Holy fuck and I thought that we had it bad in Kuwait!

  7. Lovely. Not! So is the backward direction the new crown prince is going to take ksa? Does not bode well me thinks.

  8. ” Birthdays and all kind of festivities ”

    One wonders what kind of empty lives the religious police want people to lead.

  9. Religious lives

  10. Empty of life, and pleasure, and fun, and love.

    Only distrust, hatred, and fear.
    And for women abjection, seclusion and slavery.

    That’s what they want.

  11. It will get worse and it aint just Saudi Arabia. I see much of the Arab world headed this direction, as well as some non-Arab Islamic societies.

    In what is often termed “Arab Spring” we see Islamists of two varieties struggling for power: the Brotherhood (bad) and the Salafis (worse). If any Arab Muslim cannot see the writing on the wall, they are kidding themselves. A person might as well talk of pink flying elephants in the garden as of a modernization or liberalization of Islam. Aint happening.

    I would like to indicate a good link that explores the issues relating to recent trends in Islamist politics. Kind of fits in with this post.
    http://pjmedia.com/michaeltotten/2011/11/27/the-christians-of-egypt-part-ii/

    The article is about the copts, but it does a good job in exploring the complexities of the Arab / Muslim world, its culture and mentality. Quote: “But the people who are going to get the brunt of it are my Muslim friends. They will suffer more. My wife will not be forced to wear a veil by the Muslim Brotherhood. By the Salafists maybe, but not the Muslim Brotherhood. But the Brotherhood would force my wife to wear a veil if we were Muslims. My Muslim friends’ wives will be forced to wear veils while mine won’t. There will be discrimination against Muslims by Muslims.”

    The question then for all is why can’t they good moderate Muslims stand up to the radicals? I know, but the issue is, or should be, food for though for our Muslims friend here. What gives the Islamists so much power?

    Back to the post about the Committee for the Promotion of Vice and the Prevention of Virtue – This may hurt, but thanks to these scum, cows, cats and camels have more freedom in SA than women.

  12. I think I’d rather be dead.

    A suadi frind of mine who is not living in the country has said they think that the islamists will gain power BUT once people realize how miserable life is under their rule,the people will abandon islamist rule and embrace democracy. They said they are 10,000,000% sure of that. Hmmmm…would be interesting to see.

  13. I don’t think it’s all that simple to ‘abandon Islamist rule’. You have seen how persistant those taliban can be. Once they get the power they don’t like to give it up.

  14. @Oby, Lynn is right. These buggers are like leeches. They will hang on to power for a long time.

    All what your friend has to do is look at Iran, where the clerics still hang on to power strongly after 32 years. Even the opposition in that country is made up of other clerics. There is no end in site for that country. The best they can hope for is to replace their current nutters with others who are slightly less nutty.

    Religion in politics ruins everything.

  15. I see the restrictions being imposed upon the women in KSA, and yes, I do here (Tabuk), and think “How much longer before Saudi follows the way of rural China/India and girl children are either aborted or killed at birth because they are “worthless”?
    My time here is almost over. I hae never been anywhere I’ve counted the months to leaving until here.What is sad, is I enjoyed my first 9 years here. This 10th year has been draining.

  16. Only a matter of time before they restrict Saudis from fleeing to Bahrain for the weekends to be free of the restrictions for awhile. Probably enforce a rule that only those conducting business (halal business) can travel to Bahrain.

  17. Fucking hell AB. It’s finals week, and this just shat on my night. It’s only going to get worse under Naif. Man.

  18. @Jerry M,

    Truth be told. It’s different cultures, festivities you might fun, might be rejected over there. I’ve only had one birthday party, and that was way back when, done by my aunts because it’s something they’ve heard about people doing. I can never say no to gifts, but I don’t know if it’s because of my upbringing, I make a point to let the people I surround myself with nowadays that I don’t anything any different on my birthday, they’ll be doing me a favor by just wishing me a good one and nothing more.

  19. I like giving gifts even better than receiving them. I think you should use every opportunity to be merry and make each other happy. That’s why it’s good to be Dutch, we just had Saint Martin’s day, next week is Saint Nicholas, I am already putting presents together, and making poems, and end of the month is Christmas, extra nice food, chocolates and presents…
    And then a few barren months, until Easter.
    I think you need birthdays in between to make up for the stretches of time when there are no official holidays!

  20. Interesting post! I am curious today how things turned out in Egypt’s election. Just got up so I need to check the news, I guess.

  21. This went around a couple weeks ago on BB and it is apparently NOT true. Nice to see the source though,

  22. I am a Saudi woman.

    Please give us a chance to speak!!! We are full of life, love and fun but in our way.
    Hai’a isn’t that bad( believe me)

  23. On a more philosophical note….

    What we see here is the classic “class struggle”, not in Marxist terms, but societal. It seems to be human nature to find comfort in having a group below you on the social scale. This correlates to power, not absolute power but relative power.

    A Saudi man, no matter how poor or miserable, is better than a woman. The Mutts, I believe, get some kind of perverted gratification in exercising their power over the inferior (to them) species. The Quran is bad enough when it comes to gender relations and equality, but the hadith are worse, providing a broad and fuzzy basis for any hardship imposed upon women. Fortunately not all Muslims are like this, but this “women as inferior objects mentality” is growing. Every new law, every new restriction, every silly new rule is a message and reminder to the female gender about who is better and boss. They do it because they can.

    Alas, all this forced morality is of no avail. It seems that Muslim women are all wild and will somehow manage to sin and reek havoc on Muslim moral standards. I say this because the hadith say the “most of the people in hell are women” and “women are deficient in intelligence”. With that kind of initial prospective, the Mutts have their work cut out for them. Maybe, by their pious efforts, they will be able to save a few mulsimas for paradise. I guess that is why they have all those houris in heaven because Muslim women wont make it to the pearly gates because of their immorality. How they will do this with all those restrictions I don’t know. Orgies in hajib? Thinking evil thoughts and murder? Three square inches of visible skin will send Muslim men (Saudi men) into spasms of uncontrollable erotic desire. To paraphrase The Shadow, no man knows the evil that lurks under the veil. Now the important question: Does the Islamic heaven have Pearly Gates like the Christian one?

    Wow, got off on a sarcastic tangent there! Back to power. I have seen this “better than you” mentality so many times, in many places. It is the root of racism and hate. For example, the whites in the Old South found comfort in having Negros as inferiors to them; and the same in South Africa. Nobody wants to be the lowest of the low. By putting women under their feet (while proclaiming their adoration and desire to protect them) men reinforce their egos and protect their own status. It is a power trip.

    Once again, I ask: Why don’t the good moderate Muslims stand up to these dogs? This goes far beyond the issue of covering of women… The answer to this question is the essence of what is wrong with Islam, and thus probably beyond ability of most Muslims to consider. They will not like the answer(s) so they ignore the question and women suffer, more, and it never gets better.

  24. Now that pic is disgustin .. the worse way to dipict some ones beliefs the moderator ..had she been in saudi … would have to answer the Ha’i..

    Good news i guess .. the Ha’i has female members for females now even the male members of ha’i will loose the opportunity to interact with nonmehram females lol .

    who watns to be a mutawa now?

  25. Thank you Sandy for the info I was thinking to myself this is just a bad joke.

    Although maybe a third of those rules are in practice already, such as employing civilians to help, and banning all bdays and festivities, they already monitor phone calls in Saudi (and many other countries)the Haia occasionally go to female unis to shout at women to cover their faces..

    The last one on the list is ridiculous.

    But what I can say is Haia are everywhere right now, much more than before NAIF happened.

  26. Quote: “BUT once people realize how miserable life is under their rule,the people will abandon islamist rule and embrace democracy.”

    Nope, no, non, nao. The problem is that all the islamists have to do is package their ideology in Islamic, quran covered wrapping paper and they can do anything they want. All a radical has to do is is say that what they are doing is “islamic” or accuse the others of being “non-Islamic” and the good, moderates back away because no Muslim, oh horrors, wants to be accused of being non-Islamic. It gets worse, this is when the old “the answer is islam” kicks in and so when things are miserable, the solution can only be to be more islamic. What could go wrong? The problem is confounded by the fact that Islam is rather vague and confusing so nobody really knows what is truly islamic, but again, nobody wants to be “against islam” It is a catch-22, merry-go-round, dog chasing their tail kind of thing.

    I hope you guys see the problem with having a perfect religion.

  27. @Layla,
    I think this reflects everyones fears since Naif was promoted- and since they got all that funding last year. just hope they don’t read it and get any ideas! I have seen more in Jeddah- though not a lot more. I didn’t seem them for YEARS and I’ve seen them twice in the last few months. It seems to go through phases. They target certain places -especially where the HS kids hang out. I hate that. I’d rather they were in public than in someones house where perhaps there is no supervision.

  28. “Measurements will be taken against any woman who doesn’t cooperate” — what does this mean ????

  29. Radha, maybe its bust, waist and hips size. You know, 38-30-38 (or 96-76-96, metric)

  30. My understanding is that Saudi did not require women to cover as extensively or have the restrictions that are now in place. From what I have heard Kabul in Afghanistan women used to wear mini-skirts and this was also true of Egypt in the 70’s. I am just curious as to why such a shift in the last 40 years or so? Is it because of Saudi financing their doctrine or is there some other string of events?

  31. Women could wear modern dress, or traditional (which isn’t abaya and niqab) or niqab. but niqab was rare 40 years ago. What you see now in Saudi Arabia is not culture, not tradition.
    Traditional Saudi dress and culture has been destroyed. Traditional women’s clothes were very diverse in different regions, very colorful, and way more practical.
    What you see now was enforced, with force, not by choice, by the Saudi government onto the different groups of people wha had the bad luck to fall under their power.
    No choice, no tradition, no culture.
    And it deserves no respect.
    What this does deserve is disdain.

  32. @Radha- “measures” will be taken.!

  33. Reprisals against women who do not co-operate will not be measured small.

  34. Thank you Aafke-Art

    Here is one of my biggest pet peeves:

    I have been told that Muslim women’s piety is brought out in how they dress and then told “see what Mary the mother of Jesus wears.” The thing is that there has never been a picture of Mary. Everything that is in her image is a rendition of what someone thought she would look like. The clothing is a guess by the artist and what scholars based on her religion of the time thought she would wear. However, there was alot of differents styles of dress during that time frame. I hear this -see how beautiful she is, just like the picture of Jesus’s mother Mary. Drives me insane knowing that this picture is not an actual picture of Mary and none actually exists.

  35. bigstick, actually for many centuries there were stringent rules on how an artist should paint Mary. Including what she should wear, and which colors. Also you often see a star on her shoulder and one on her forehead. These were all part of the rules. Mary was ofter depicted wihtout headscarf btw. And if you look at all those European paintings of Mary you wonder whether she really had blonde hair? 😉

  36. What I mean is the dress of Mary is no accident; it was always mandated. By religious leaders.
    However, we can surely not go wrong by imagining the young woman Mary (”virgin” was actually a mistranslation from the Greek ”Young woman”) would be looking Semitic, and wearing the dress and head covering which was normal for the time and place she lived.

  37. I appreciate that however the picture that many go on about is in fact the one with the scarf or headcovering. Still it is an artist rendition based on scholars of the time as there is no actually picture of Mary but only a picture of what a group of people envised her to look like. It still a make believe picture and this is what women are ask as to emulate that which is make believe. See my point. I don’t know if I am making myself clear on this point.

  38. Speaking of birthdays my father-in-law will not allow them. The family just go out and celebrate somewhere else without him.

  39. Actually, there is a lot of evidence that women dressed in various styles including the headdress during Jesus’ time. There were also those who dressed in sheer transparent dressing and exposed their breast. The thing is that not even those who put the bible together in I believe 325 AD actually knew. They devised a artistic rendition that best suited their needs of the time. Only a make believe image.

  40. I get the point, my point is that how we see Mary depicted is wholly imaginary, Actually you do see changes in her dress through the ages, matching the fashions of the time.
    Anyway, in Spain she was often standing on a half moon, symbolizing the victory of Christianity over Islam. Is that something to aspire too as well? :wicked:

  41. And if you look at african art Mary is black.

  42. I have to admit I did not know that about Spain. That’s a good one.

  43. well, women of most religions and cultures are semi nude and some are totally nude ,,

    so alhumdulillah islam is the only religion taught women to dress in an appropriate manner and men too,,

    l

  44. Aafke-Art, on November 29, 2011 at 10:06 pm said:

    I get the point, my point is that how we see Mary depicted is wholly imaginary, Actually you do see changes in her dress through the ages, matching the fashions of the time.
    Anyway, in Spain she was often standing on a half moon, symbolizing the victory of Christianity over Islam. Is that something to aspire too as well? :wicked:

    another thing that nonmuslims are ignorant of islam .. moon , they think moon has something to do with islam ..

    moon is nothing but to show the months calender
    we dont worship moon its a creation of creator

    we worship creator not his cretion!!!

  45. My understanding is that Allah is the pagan name of the moon god who was married to the sun goddess who had three daughters. They were considered to be the high level Gods then there were the lesser gods. Mohammad father’s tribe worshipped Allah and that is my understanding where Allah was brought forth from.

  46. @big stick actually ur last remark was ignorant. The idol worshipping arabs believed that Allah was the god of Abraham, and it was a prominent member of a dominant tribe that travelled to Syria and Palestine and saw the people there worshipping idols and believed that this was a good practice. He then brought this back to Arabia because he believed that since the people of Syria and Palestine were the people in the biblical stories they knew how to worship Allah better. Before the idol worship, the people of Arabia were Jews, Christians, and Sabians.

    The essence of idol worship is attributing lesser symbols to god. The idol worshipping Arabs then looked up and saw the moon as great so they attributed it to Allah, but the people still believe that they were following prophet Abraham’s alayhi salaam example.

    You should be careful to look up information before just saying what you heard from an ignorant Muslim-hater.

  47. anahindi, Trust me; The Inuit from the polar icecap invented total body covering including gloves a very long time before Islam was even invented!

  48. ana-hindi..what is the use of covering up your body in modesty when your mind and heart are corrupted? The amount of clothing you wear..or lack of it…does not indicate what type of person you are on the inside. It is only a facade..a show for the people…nobody knows what blackness lurks in the hearts and minds of the most modestly dressed individual. That is no way to compare people. Islam did not copywrite modest dress…nor modest behavior…there have always been those who practice both..without the crutch of a religion to lean on.

  49. and about the article on the haia. i disagree with a lot of what the haia are doing. there is no compulsion in ISLAM!! also ISLAM does not put any human above another human we are all equal before ALLAH subhanu wa t’ala. i agree with them protecting women from harassment, but they cannot enforce hijab or different opinions on hijab. they are 4 different mudhabs with different opinions and also everyone can have their opinion. only Allah knows best. some believe it is okay to show the face and hands, so think all must be covered, etc. for them to think that only they have the right opinion is prideful, and when one is prideful it leads to a great many wrongdoings.

    i also must say that the picture is inaccurate and i don’t believe that the haia goes around whipping exposed ankles. that is more afghanistan under the taliban.

  50. The Arabs weren’t ”idol” worshippers, they worshipped a less limited array of gods than what they were forced to do later. They worshipped the Goddesses Allat, Al-Manat, and Al Uzza. Ad they made statues of them. There is no reason to talk in a denigrating style about their earlier belief systems, they were just as valid as the god they worship nowadays. As women are held in much higher regard in societies where Goddesses are worshipped it probably was a lot better religious system anyway.
    All religious people create idols. Today the Muslims worship the Quran, guess what happens if you burn one? What about Meccah and the black stone of the Kaaba? And they worship the hijab, for women it’s the sixth pillar of Islam, without it they are prostitutes and will be tortured in hell. (And some fathers even help their daughters getting there sooner by killing them if they refuse to wear it). And what happens if somebody draws Mohammed? Or what happens to a teacher if her students call a teddy bear Mohammed? Or draws a bear suit and suggest Mohammed might be inside?

    I think this propensity for idols thing goes together with the gullabillity and superstitious mindset needed to believe in imaginary sky-daddies, and that’s why all religious people create idols from something or other.

    mnm1, many islamic groups and even countries use the moon symbol as their religious symbol. So you can’t blame people who see Muslims using the moon as their symbol to use it too.

  51. CoolRed – The KKK come to mind. 🙂

  52. Oh please, Islam is compulsion central. A religion which tells it’s believers to kill apostates, and everybody else on the planet who doesn’t ”see the light” is without compulsion????
    It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad!

  53. The image was created by one of my most favorite artists and I could not resist using it with this post. I think the image reinforces the words of the post.

  54. You know what protects women from harassment?
    Gender equality and laws which protect women and proper education of children. Teach the boys respect for women, teach the girls respect for themselves, and martial arts.

  55. And no segregation. And less covering would help too. The more you cover women the crazier men get, the more harassment you get.

  56. Actually there’s nothing modest about wearing cloth. There are many nature people who live of nature, are part of nature and do not dress and if you study them you can see that ”modesty” has nothing to do with clothes really.
    It’s an artificial construct.

  57. And the moon was probably worshiped in Mecca a lot. The whole set up of that place just begs for a mother goddess cult. It had everything the ancient mother goddess cults liked: caves, a well which never dries, a black stone from the sky (Black stones are significant idols connected to the Great goddess all over the world) and so people build a shrine and went to pilgrimage there.
    And when Mohammed invented Allah he basically took over the whole Goddess-kaboodle, (which was also very profitable) only he replaced the seven priestesses with men (because he didn’t like women, except for sex), he threw out the competing gods and goddesses, he forbade doing the ritual naked (a symbol of purity) and when he was powerful enough he forbade anybody but Muslims to do the ancient pilgrimage, circling, throwing stones, kissing the black stone of the Great goddess, etc.

    Really if Islam is so peaceful and Allah so loving why not all worship together? The earlier religions didn’t throw out the Muslims, they were far more tolerant.

  58. @ mnm11 You say tomato, I say tomatoe. I say there is enough historical, archelogical and scholarly information to view this as a viable theory. Bring me your proof that I am wrong. Where is your proof.

  59. @ aafke art. idol worshipping is the act of creating images and statues and worshipping them as god. so i don’t know how you can say that the pre islamic arabs weren’t idol worshippers? ur hate clouds ur logic.
    do you even know how muslims dispose of old qurans? they BURN them, so your other point is not valid either.
    do muslims get mad when you insult their religion? YES! do jews? YES! do christians? YES! do sikhs? YES! do hindus? YES!

    oh and yeah…SURE…women had it a lot better in the time of the pagan era…they were a lot stronger because they had to survive being buried alive for no reason but their gender, bought and sold to men, inherited on the death of their husband. YEAH sure that sounds like a GREAT society.

    “the moon symbol” is nothing more than the calendar system and in the Quran Allah subhanu wa t’ala said that the moon and sun are a sign for those who believe. NOT a symbol, and many muslims reject its use on flags or the top of masjids.

    honor killing- it happens in many societies in the middle east and in east asia and people of many different faiths commit this horrendous act: muslims, christians, yazidis, hindus, sikhs, etc. its a cultural and tribal problem that has to do with the honor of the men being attached to the women and effecting their standing in their tribe or society. its not in islam at all.

    Islam does not teach to kill apostates and Prophet Muhammed sallallahu alayhi wa salaam did not do so, and there are many example throughout the sunnah of his actions in this matter. Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. taught tolerance and never forced anyone to convert. he visited the neighbor who threw trash on him when he was sick to check on him. he hand fed a blind man who called him a sorcerer not reviling his identity and it was only discovered after he died. he freed captives of war after they taught muslims how to read and write.

    i think that you are right about modesty not just being about cloth. i wear hijab and am very happy to do so. however women can wear hijab and not be modest. some women who don’t wear hijab are more modest than those who do. modesty is an idea not just represented through cloth.

    you have so much hatred against Islam that it blinds you and all of your opinions. you claim to want to respect other faiths when you are not respectful of Islam. your hatred and bias blinds you to listening to other opinions other than your own. i don’t know what has happened to you in your past but i hope that your wounds are healed and hope that you learn patience, tolerance and open mindedness.

  60. @ big stick jews first migrated from palestine to the hijaz in 587 bc because they were suffering oppression under the bablyonians. around 70ce there was a prominent christian community in the najran.

    the man who travelled to syria and introduced idol worship to arabia was ‘amr bin luhai and was chief of khuza’ah tribe. he brought back an idol named hubal and placed it in the middle of the kabah and then idolatry became widespread throughout mecca and the hijaz. look up his name and get the info.

    also where is your proof that shows that mine is false? you had no names or sources

  61. Ana, Muslims only care about Mohammed. I have never seen them get upset about any insult to Allah. Also, Allah and Mohammad (“we”
    in the Quran) make decisions together and one speaks for the others.

    Note also that, as a god, Mohammad is exempt from all moral standards that apply to humans. This is obvious because I have never never never found a Muslim that will condemn any of his actions. Will you?

    MMM, “there is no compulsion in ISLAM!!: ha ha ha ha ha ha (rolling on the floor). “ISLAM does not put any human above another human” well except for those verses that say “You (Muslims) are the best of peoples” and “Non-believers are lower than animals” or the 1,001 verses in the Quran that slander non-Muslims. Except for reality in Islamic societies.

    As AA said, consider that Muslims bow down before a rock, and yet they call the other ‘idol worshipers’, as if everybody doesn’t have their own idols (movie stars, Mohammed, Jesus, quran, sports figures, Jim Kardasian, money, sex, power, Obama, etc). We all worship somethjng.

    And the old pre-islam Arabs had a much better calendar than the silly moon-based, inaccurate, never know-when-the-month-starts thing Muslims try to use today.

    Yeah, AA and I have you guys outnumbered.

    Anyway, I wish Muslims would come down and join us in this imperfect world, or at least stop quoting scripture as if we didn’t know it also, or as if quoting a verse made it true.

  62. That was Kim, not Jim. Jim was the little-known gay brother that ran off with the gardener to live in the Malvinas, dedicating himself to growing seaweed for use as an alternative fuel.

  63. The time before Islam wasn’t a time of barbarism, there were several highly developed civilisations. In goddess religions women always have rights, Khadisha the prophets first wife, had enough rights to inherit a lot of money, she had enough rights to run her own international trading business, and she had enough self assurance to ask a younger man to marry her.
    Of course Mohammed changed all that later, by making sure daughters got less in inheritance and wives almost nothing, and by taking away a lot of other rights, including choosing your own husband.
    Read the biography of Mohammed, it is nothing but raids (on unsuspecting villages) killing, enslaving etc. He send out assassins to kill women poets, am mother slain in the midst of her children, breastfeeding a baby. He had a very old women, a leader of her tribe, tied between two camels and ripped apart. He had all the men of a Jewish tribe killed, making slaves of the women, and giving them to his men to rape and use, he himself slept with (raped) Saffiya right after he killed her father, her brothers and her husband.
    This man was a barbarian.
    Read the Quran and hadith, all valid verses (the later ones which obrigate the earlier ones) full with killing. Even the whole writing style is negative, all words are negative. And you see what the effect this religion has in countries where it has power: Pure stagnation and lack of human rights, poverty, war, enslavement of women and general unhappiness.

    Stop yelling and whining. I don’t ”hate” Islam, I dislike it.
    As I dislike all religions which are suppressive and cause evil and suffering. I don’t want any religion to have any say in politics. I want people to stop giving traditional and undeserved respect to religions.
    I want people to give religions the distrust they do deserve.

  64. mnm1, I do not claim to respect religions, I do not respect religions at all. I dislike them. They are poison. They cause evil and suffering, they corrupt people’s morals. And the latest ones takes human rights away from women.
    If we did not have religions we would have reached the Star Trek universe by now!

  65. Really, mnm11, where are your proofs that all women were treated so badly all over Arabia before Islam? There is no archeological proof, it is just something that was taught to you. And you must know that the Saudi Wahhabbis are very diligent in destroying historical sites, they would destroy Maidah Saleh in an instant if they could. Btw, that is one big bit of proof of the existence of Nabbatean culture, a very highly developed culture, in Saudi Arabia far before Islam was invented.

    And really, I understand if you are Muslim you want the Quran and hadith to be nice books full of friendly advice. But have you ever really seriously read them? Because they are horrible books! They really are full of horrible stuff, and full of Mohammed’s raids, killing and raping and enslaving. the hadith do say you have to kill apostates. The first verse of the Quran tells you as a Muslim to hate Christians and Jews. I am truly serious have you actually sat down and read these books through? From cover to cover? Because I have.

  66. mnm11…do muslims get mad when you insult their religion? YES! do jews? YES! do christians? YES! do sikhs? YES! do hindus? YES

    The very big difference is the reaction that insult generates among its followers. Compare muslim reaction to naming a teddy bear Mohammed…throwing a quran in the toilet…cartoon images of mohammed…etc etc to those other followers of other religions that get insulted. You don’t have to insult a muslim very much (or at all…it’s all a matter of perspective I guess) to get a violent reaction. teddy bear names…throwing books in toilets…cartoons etc are hardly cause for the level of violence they generate (actually they shouldn’t generate ANY violence but hey…who are we to judge religious fevor)…and yet…every little statement that contradicts..critisizes…or in any way shows disagreement with islam or the prophet gets exactly this sort of rise out of the mobs that descend to show their ire. Why is that particular to muslims?

    And as Jay said…this reaction is generally focused on insults to the prophet..not to god…and not always to the quran…just him. So whose the real god of islam then?

  67. @ jay Muhammed s.a.w was just a man, but as muslims we believe that he was the best example of a man. do christians look for flaws in Jesus alayhi wa salaam?

    please reference your quotes from the Quran so that they can be answered properly. yes, we do believe that muslims are superior to others as the definition of a muslim is one who submits. christians and jews can be muslims too. also not all people who say they are muslims really are submitting. no one can force anyone to submit, and anyone can choose to. no one can judge another because only Allah (God) can judge. not all people that say they are muslims follow Islam just like not all christians follow christianity and etc on all religions.

    we don’t bow before a “rock”, we bow to Allah subhanu wa t’ala in the direction of the first house of God. there are no images or statues that we bow before.

    as muslims we acknowledge that we are imperfect, and yes we will quote scripture for evidence on our religion. this is a proper scholarly response when commenting on a religion. i don’t think that you know about islam and have the quran memorized, and muslims would not even think that they know everything about islam.

    btw…i don’t care if i’m outnumbered. MIGHT DOESN’T MEAN RIGHT.

  68. mnm11, yes, cool, stand up for your believes and don’t bow down to numbers!

    The ”house of Allah” was the house of other gods first though. To me it’s just one god replacing others, and in a few thousand years there will be another god yet again. Religions come and go.
    Did you know that Mohammed first choose Jerusalem as the place to bow down and prey to? Only after he realized he could not gain power all the way in Jerusalem did he change his mind, or Allah changed his mind, to go for Mecca instead. There is a mosque in Medina which is called the Mosque of the two qibla’s, it’s first qiblah was aimed towards Jerusalem, and when Mohammed changed his mind they build a second one aimed at Mecca. Now the Wahhabbis have done ”restoration” work on that mosque and removed the earlier qiblah, but everybody knows it used to be there. Can you imagine? What if Mohammed had not changed it’s mind? You would be praying towards Jerusalem, there would be no pilgrimage to meccah anymore, at at least not by Muslims, maybe the earlier religions would still be there. No black stone, no throwing rocks at the devil, at least not by Muslims.
    You see how arbitrary all this is?

  69. I find the reason for keeping the kabah confusing. Muslims are not meant to worship idols..all the idols were thrown out..but the kabah remains as the biggest idol of them all for muslims. Assumingly you can pray to god anywhere in the world..why the need to converge on that rock in particular…why is it such an instrumental aspect of islam that it’s one of the 5 pillars? If the kaba was not there..would muslims still congregate there once a year? Somewhere else? Not find the need to congregate at all because they believe god is anywhere and everywhere? I find you cannot believe this to be true of god…but then turn around and say…for better reception tho…prayers done there are superior to prayers done anywhere else…and god will forgive your sins more there than if you ask them to be forgiven from anywhere else…or that god listens in general more there than anywhere else. (I happen to know this specific one is not true..he equally ignored my prayers to protect my children from harm while I performed umra and prayed within 20 feet of the kaba as those I performed in other parts of the world…go figure..nothing special here, folks..move along).

    I wonder if the world decided to remove the kaba the way the taliban decided to remove the budda statues…would muslims get upset? Why? It’s just a rock…god is not there in the rock is he? It would seem only fair.

  70. @AA actually khadijjah radi Allahu anha wasn’t a pagan she came from a family who followed the example of Abraham alayhi wa salaam and asked her uncle after Prophet Muhammed’s revelation from God for signs of prophethood. the point is that you cannot compare khadijah’s life as a wealthy noble woman and not a pagan to those of the middle and lower class women pagans. it would be like comparing a billionaires daughter to how most women live.

    quote the hadiths where this happened. yeah there was violence, and it was a time of violence and oppression. also those pagans were really understanding when they tortured sumayyah and killed her by stabbing her through her vagina. yeah that was tolerant.

    where is your proof saffiya was raped? Muhammed sAllahu alayhi wa salaam gave her the choice of her freedom or marriage to him. she chose to be married to him and converted to Islam. he gave back all of her property and the property of her tribe won as war booty. she told the Prophet s.a.w about a story in which her previous husband slapped her and asked her if she wanted to be the wife of Muhammed s.a.w. in the end she chose marriage with the Prophet and he was staunch to defend her against anyone who criticized her.

    @coolred
    i understand ur point and am against this reaction. i think that most people hesitate to criticize “God” and instead most people criticize Muhammed s.a.w. so this is why you see most reactions stemming from criticism of Muhammed s.a.w.. there have been reactions for criticism against Allah subhanu wa t’ala as well. also keep in mind that some christians call God Allah too. to be more direct in targeting muslims than most people just criticize Prophet Muhammed s.a.w.. also, christian and jews have invaded lands belonging to muslims and killed, raped, and occupied. so muslims have had a big reaction on a small scale, but on a larger scale christians and jews have reacted to their dislike of Islam. why is it that the only countries that the US makes wars with are predominantly muslim? there are huge crime against humanity in other countries with different religions as well.

  71. @AA and coolred yes i know that the qibla was switched. however i don’t see how thats a big deal. my opinion is that it was switched due to the emphasis of what Muhammed s.a.w. did with the idols in the kabaa and restoring it to a true house of God. that was one of the great actions that occurred with the last prophet so it makes sense to me. jerusalem was also another holy place where Jesus alayhi wa salam did many great things. muslims could not pray towards the kabaa before the idols were destroyed because they would be praying towards them.

    @coolred the comment about the blowing up the kabaa was really distasteful. 1. yeah as if the taliban is the best example of muslims
    2. i actually don’t disagree with blowing up the buddha if it was actually what the afghani people wanted and not what only the taliban decided on. my opinion is that its the afghani land, so let them decide what to do with whats in their land. however its a completely different matter if the afghanis decided to go to tibet and blow up one of their buddhas. similar to the example of foreigners going to mecca and blowing up the kabaa.

  72. How was my comment about the kaba distateful..what exactly did I say except a “what if” question? I’m talking about a rock here…not a human being. I find marrying little girls off to old men distateful..not to mention disgusting…I find men being allowed to marry up to 4 women distateful…not to mention disgusting (even if all are in agreement..which is hardly the case generally)…I find the killing of apostates distateful…not to mention barbaric AND disgusting…I find the punishment of homosexuals distateful and inhumane…etc etc etc…I do NOT find the whimisical question of whether or not a big black rock should be destroyed as distateful…but then..we all have different perspectives on what’s important…and what’s just humane. 😉

  73. Khadisha’s family did follow a monothestic religion, my point is that she was wealthy, ran her own business, she had rights and respect. Before Islam was invented. Women had power and were valued. SHe was the one who wore the pants in that relationship, Mohammed could not marry other women until she died.
    Other people though did worship female goddesses, it is very unlikely that such people would weed out baby girls. Mohammed preached against burying baby girls, but that is all, there is no proof that it was common.
    Mohammed covered women up, took omens’ rights away, made them into objects. made them half as much as men. He did not allow them to be judges, he did not allow them to be the head of a clan, he took a lot away from women.
    What can you name that he did for women after Khadisha died?

    Saffiya had no choice. We are talking about the bani Nader right?
    Mohammed just killed her father. He killed her brother, he killed her husband. He tortured her husband to get him to tell him where the tribe’s treasure was hidden.Where do you get that he gave her a ”choice”? She had no choice, she is booty. She is a slave. She was already allotted to another man, but when Mohammed heard of her beauty he ordered Dihya and Saffiya be brought before him and he selected her for himself.
    And she’s supposed to be all happy and wanting to marry Mohammed.
    This is not a rational story.
    It was not believed at the time, one of his men stayed outside the tent all night because he was worried she would kill him after killing half her tribe and family. She was probably too shellshocked to do so

    At the end of the day Mohammed enslaved people, which is evil.
    Saffiyah was a captive slave, and the best man ever, was a slave taker of women. He enslaved women for his men and for himself. He did not free women? He made slaves out of them! He was not the best man, he was just as bad as other warlords of his time. So he did not advance women’s rights at all.
    .
    What happened in those days is: Tribes are raided the men are killed, the possessions divided and the women enslaved and raped. That’s what Mohammed did. Normal for that barbaric time yes, but not a shining example for our time.

  74. mnm11, on November 30, 2011 at 12:38 am said: honor killing- it happens in many societies in the middle east and in east asia and people of many different faiths commit this horrendous act: muslims, christians, yazidis, hindus, sikhs, etc. its a cultural and tribal problem that has to do with the honor of the men being attached to the women and effecting their standing in their tribe or society. its not in islam at all.

    *****************************

    Ding Dong You Are Wrong!

    It is no accident or coincidence that an OVERWHELMING number of Muslims commit 91 percent of honor killings worldwide. A manual of Islamic law certified as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy by Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, says that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.”

    However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (‘Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2). In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.

    http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

  75. “It’s just a rock…god is not there in the rock is he? It would seem only fair.”

    You know you hit upon something that I had always wondered about too. why is everyone else’s “idol” not OK but the kabbah is? Just because it is not in a recognizable human form means nothing. For example, I have argued over and over again that the statues in church are not idols. They have no inherent holiness or power.Neither does the cross or the alter or the pews or the candles or anything else. They are symbols. Nothing more. Yes people kneel to pray after they light a candle, or they may look at the cross and pray to god. The whole entire church and everything it contains can burn to a heap of smoldering ashes and nothing is lost. (other than the inherent value of the items and the sentimental value it held.) The church will call their insurance company to recoup the money to rebuild and that is that. So how come the things in my church are idols but that rock in the middle of mecca that people venerate, kiss, touch and pray to is NOT an idol??? It seems to me actually to be more of an idol than anything in a church. I say their idol is as good as mine! LOL!

  76. @coolred your comment was distasteful because it was off topic and meant to do nothing except inflame sentiments. i find all of those things distasteful as well…except for polygny, because it can be moral in the proper circumstances. i find 7 year old girls wearing making and belly shirts distasteful. i find men cheating on their wives with numerous women on business trips distasteful. i find the glorification of a woman’s figure put through starvation distasteful. i find men spending more money on mistresses than their wife distasteful too and the list could go on.
    @AA i already established that khadijah was not the typical woman of her society so using her as an example for the situation is absurd, like saying i know an afghani woman who had a great life under the taliban so all women had a great life when they were in charge.
    – also you use the accounts of the sahabah to state ur facts about khadijah but then discard the same accounts that talk of girl children being buried alive in their family or having buried a child alive themselves in the pre islamic times. that is inconsistent and irresponsible. you can’t pick and choose info with the same amount of evidence behind it just because you want to make a particular point. its the same thing that control freak extremists do to justify any atrocities they commit.

    in regards to saffiyah. she did have a choice because Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. offered her freedom even if she didn’t marry him. btw she wasn’t set to be the wife of another man, she was set to be the slave of another man.

    slavery was a common practice in christianity, islam, judaism, and in all societies. however, Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. always advised the sahabah to set free slaves to atone for wrong doings, which like the gradual prohibition of alcohol was a way to gradually end slavery.

  77. @AA i feel like you only get your evidence and opinions from anti islamic websites and you don’t ever read the hadith books as whole. i am giving you the benefit of a doubt on your intention to purposefully omit information. here is a website for you to read many different narrations of hadith: http://hadithcollection.com/

    @ harry where did you get ur number? if you had knowledge of honor killings than you would know that most don’t get reported. also it happens in all different religions and cultures. if you saw the video of the kurdish girl that got stoned to death in iraq while the police watched; she was yazidi not muslim. honor killings happen in egypt amongst coptic christians and muslims. bride burnings happen in india amongst hindus to get more money from dowries.

    and not all muslims follow al Azhar and not all scholars from al Azhar agree with this. islam doesnt have a priesthood or a special person at its head that everyone must obey. in Islam the search for knowledge and asking questions due to a disagreement is welcomed and is part of the faith. also in Islam everyone must be tried before a court. these killings happen outside the rule of law, period.

    also retaliation is not obligatory because Islam allows the victim or victim’s family to forgive the assaulter, murder, etc.

    yeah and child killers are definitely punished under islamic law. do i think that there needs to be special task forces set up to investigate honor killings, yes!

  78. @oby i think the difference between an idol and a non idol is firstly that idols are made to look as living things and people as the idol for favors, lay offerings at its feet, etc. in the catholic church there are little statues of saints that people talk to, pray to, and give offerings to, instead of talking to God. in Islam people don’t talk to the kabaa, ask the kabaa to intercede for them in front of God or lay offerings to the kabaa. they only pray in its direction, which is a big difference.

  79. mnm11, I don’t read anti-islamic websites. I don’t need to.
    My bad opinion of Islam is based on books I have at home: the Quran, the hadith and the biography of Mohammed, and the current Islamic states and what they do and how they treat their citizens.
    I think it’s you who hasn’t read all of it, only some cherry picked bits.

    I dismiss the whole story about how women’s position was improved by Mohammed. The hadith themselves show that women had status and money before Mohammed.
    The situation of women in Islam is the worst on the planet, and it is caused directly by the sayings and actions of Mohammed on women in the hadith. Your hadith, your holy book.
    We have had many discussions about this topic, you are new here so you don’t know we have already discussed them, also you do not know how much people on this forum know.

    Why wasn’t Saffiya free to begin with? Ask yourself. She was enslaved because Mohammed killed her family. How did Muslims get slaves? Muslims got slaves by invading other tribes, killing the men and enslaving the women, girls and young boys. It’s from your own hadith. I have read them. I have read the Quran, in the usual order and in chronological order. You do not see that people on this blog understand Islam.

    -Forcing women how to dress is not advancing women’s rights
    -Allowing men to have 4 wives and as many slaves as they can buy is not advancing women’s rights.
    -Enslaving women is not advancing women’s rights
    -making rules which give women less inheritance and no alimony after divorce is not advancing women’s rights.
    -This is for all times remember?
    -And all this is in your Quran and hadith, there is no need to go anywhere else.

    Saffiya was married to a man who was tortured and then murdered by Mohammed, she was given as booty to be raped by one of Mohammed’s men, and when Mohammed heard of her beauty he demanded her for himself. He was in his late 50’s. She was 17.

    Read your own religion, Mohammed was only for freeing slaves when he needed followers, as soon as he had power he contributed to slavery by making slaves of free people and using them.

    Yes, Judaism and Christianity are also bad, they also endorse slavery, they are as bad. But then Islam is plagiarized from these two religions, so that is not a surprise.

  80. mmn1…”inflame sentiments”…are you kidding me? How would that inflame your sentiments to ask whether it would be fair to destroy the kaba as other symbols from other people’s cultures have been destroyed in the name of islam? And yes..all those things you mentioned are distateful..but none of them are sanctioned by a religion. That is a difference many muslims fail to understand when pointing out the sins of other cultures and countries.

    Yes we do this…but look at what YOU do!! blah blah.

    All your statements say the same thing…yes islam has this..but so do those other messed up religions. Imagine that…all of these religions have the same messed up message and practice the same messed up actions to a certain degree. Starting to see a pattern here?

    And why is it quite fine to use Khadeeja as an example for the purpose of promoting Islam…but not for critisizing it? How is it she was an exception…how could she possibly even be an exception if women were treated as crappy as muslims would like the world to believe pre Islam? There would never have been an opportunity for her to be an exception. Period.

    Btw..a lot more happens “outside the law” in islamic countries than within it. Wonder why that is? Don’t the muslims believe that Sharia is the finest code of law ever established? Don’t they trust the Sharia judges to make proper judgements and punish the guilty accordingly? By taking matters into their own hands…which they do regularly…they are in fact saying they don’t trust the govt/courts/judges to handle the matter to their satisfaction….hardly in keeping with submitting to islam and god.

  81. mnm11…

    I hear what you are saying but here is the thing…no one believes that God resides in any of the statues. they could be there or not be there. It makes no difference. As I said the whole thing could burn down and it would not make any difference. They are not worshiping the object. That is the point that Muslims miss. Catholics understand god is not in the object just as god is not in the kabba. If the kabbah got destroyed somehow, muslims the world over would be in great pain. If one of the statues in a church got destroyed…no big deal. That for me is the difference. If the kabbah is not an idol then it’s destruction should not cause such great pain. If it is simply a way to know which way to face to pray then some other object should work just fine. Put another black rock there or an obelisk or a big X marks the spot.

  82. @ AA i have read this blog for a long time actually but didn’t desire to comment. you still have presented no proof that pre-islamic arabia was better for women than islamic arabia. also if you don’t like islam or religion than stay away from it. you don’t have to try to enforce your belief on others. its obvious that you have an ulterior motive if you have sought out chats about saudi arabia, when you know that the dominant talk will be about Islam. i write for the benefit of those reading and not for you. Islam when practiced gives you peace of mind, freedom and happiness. muslims are just ordinary people who pray 5 times a day and try to remember and be thankful to Allah for what they have in life. we are not slaves to money, alcohol, gossip, careers, and fashion. we do NOT hate non muslims. there isn’t some secret evil conspiracy to harm people. we are just normal like everyone else and come from all different races and cultures.
    -Islam does not force women to dress a certain way as in the quran it states there is not compulsion in religion. also there is no punishment in either the quran or the hadith for not wearing hijab. ruling by islamic scholars say that it is required by the religion, but a woman cannot be forced to wear it. just like you can choose not to pray (although required of the religion) you can choose to wear hijab. hijab is much better than objectifying yourself, putting yourself under the knife with plastic surgery, and constantly being sexually harassed due to your attractiveness.
    -cutting men from having unlimited wives down to 4 was a major advance in human rights. there is a benefit to polygyny in times of war, and solving problems with fertility as an option instead of an outright divorce. ALSO men are cautioned that in order to take more than one wife they must treat all fairly, and if they are unable to do so they should only marry one. ALSO there is a punishment of the day of judgement for the ones who treat their wives unequally. this actually greatly discourages the practice, and sets limits to it not freeing up the men to marry lots of women.
    -i refuse to comment on “enslaving women” as Islam gave women unprecedented rights that women in europe would not see until over a thousand years later.
    -Islam gave women more rights to inheritance from their father, mother, brothers, and husbands that they had never had before. ALSO women can have alimony and most do when they include it in their marital contract.
    -saffiya was married to an abusive husband by her own account and was widowed by 17. she would have been a 17 year old slave girl if Muhammed sAllahu alayhi wa salaam wouldn’t have stepping in and offered her freedom, the freedom of her tribe AND (not or) marriage to him. she then became a narrarrator of hadith and muslims would learn from her after Prophet Muhammed’s s.a.w death.

    Muhammed sAllahu alayhi wa sallam freed slaves, had others free slaves, and demonstrated through his example patience, love, and how to treat women. he chastised a man for only having his son on his lap and not his daughter, refused dinner invitations when his wife was not also invited, never hit even an animal, told his followers that the best in Islam are the best to their wives, said that whatever hurts his daughter, fatima, hurts him. these are not the actions of a misogynist. these are the actions of a FEMINIST.

  83. There are Catholic churches that have statues but there are other catholic churches that do not. Does that mean the Catholics in the church with statues are idolitors and those in the church without it are not? The point is is that the statues are incidental to the church…they are there yes…but not required. BUT the kabbah is required isn’t it?

  84. mnm11…

    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

    You may or may not find this link interesting

  85. @coolred they are distasteful and u used the example for that purpose. otherwise you would have stated do muslims have the right to blow up things that are holy to other religions? to that i reply no if there are followers of a particular religion in that vicinity that used those holy objects or make pilgrimage to those sites. i say yes if no one of the religion lives there and no one makes a pilgrimage to the site and the inhabitants want to follow THEIR religion in THEIR LAND.

    about khadijah, what i said was that if you were going to bring up khadijah’s example than you must be responsible to bring up the example given by other sahabah of girl children being murdered. you can’t take one thing from the SAME sources and omit another proving the opposite is irresponsible. also there are always exceptions in societies what said is that its not fair to say that just because khadijah lived this way doesn’t mean that society was good for women. ALSO as i already pointed out khadijah was from a different socioeconomic environment as the majority of women.

    i agree with you honor killings are not Islamic.

  86. @oby i do and thank you. i am interested in learning about other religions and cultures.
    and i do believe that at some point in time the kabaa was restored, but i’m not certain and am very tired and need sleep.

  87. “hijab is much better than objectifying yourself, putting yourself under the knife with plastic surgery, and constantly being sexually harassed due to your attractiveness.”

    why is it always either/or? Not wearing hijab does NOT make you a slut waiting for the next man to flatter you and glue his eyes on your boobs. i mean seriously…have many hijabis gone out with out the hijab? They would be shocked to find out that they are treated the same with or without the hijab. In other words no man is going to drool down the front of his shirt at the sight of her hair, or pat her behind or stare at her. She will be pretty much ignored as most women are. Yes the man may sneak a peek but I can tell you he is going to sneek a peek with or without the hijab on. Why do muslim women act as if the entire male population is dying to jump them if they don’t wear hijab? In a muslim country where they are not used to seeing uncovered heads…maybe.

  88. @Oby

    Here’s an excerpt from a non-Catholic view.

    “Despite what many Catholics believe, there is more idolatry in the Roman Catholic Church than one could even begin to imagine. It is possible that in some cases this may not be apparent in ones own Church but it does exist in a huge way in the Papal Catholic system and is especially obvious in South America and in Rome. For example, the Catholic Church originally changed the Sabbath to Sunday in favour of Sun Worship as the Catholic Church was entrenched in Sun Worship especially in the early days. Another such example, as paganism was brought into the Catholic Church the pagan statues had to be given Christian names, eg: the Statue of St Peter in St Peters Cathedral was originally the statue of the pagan god Jupiter. This statue has had its foot kissed away and replaced because of the multitude of Catholics that have bowed down to this statue and kissed its foot. There can be no other name for this other than idolatry, especially when this was originally a pagan god. There are many more such examples that could be given of where the Catholic Church is involved in worshiping other gods. Many people don’t realise that the biggest sun dial in the world is the eight-rayed sun wheel, which was symbolic of the god Ishtar and is located in St Peters Square in the Vatican seen in the picture to the left.”

    Taken from: http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/catholic_church_idolatry.html

    That’s the thing with religion. Plenty of people have differing opinions from people that fall under the same religious umbrella.

  89. @oby thank you i now understand a little more on catholicism and their views. i do not agree with them, but thank you for providing me with more knowledge.

  90. @oby as i said in my earlier post some women who don’t wear hijab are more modest than those who do. i didn’t say that this happened to all women not wearing hijab. i just used an extreme example as extreme examples in the opposing view were thrown at me. i have not worn hijab in the past and yeah i was sexually harassed, and objectified. no one has done that to me in hijab.

    i don’t think that most men will jump at u when u don’t wear hijab. i just think that hijab gives women protection that showing your beauty doesn’t.

  91. “to that i reply no if there are followers of a particular religion in that vicinity that used those holy objects or make pilgrimage to those sites. i say yes if no one of the religion lives there and no one makes a pilgrimage to the site and the inhabitants want to follow THEIR religion in THEIR LAND.”

    Didn’t the messenger (saws), destroy all the idols of the Kufar who used to make pilgrimage to Makkah? You should ask for Allah’s forgiveness for that comment and going against the example of the final messenger.

  92. OK mnm11…thanks for clarifying your point about hijab.

  93. @MoQ

    you are right. i misspoke. thank you. i said that was my opinion on what should be done, but i forgot to look at the example of the Prophet s.a.w.
    although i don’t think that muslims have the right to travel to other places demolishing their holy sites.

  94. @mnm11 – ‘hijab is much better than objectifying yourself, putting yourself under the knife with plastic surgery, and constantly being sexually harassed due to your attractiveness’

    Perhaps it is but hijab has not replaced those things. If it did then we would not find those issues in KSA. Saudi women still put themselves under the knife for plastic surgery, They still get eating disorders from body image issues and they are MORE sexually harassed than the average pretty girl outside of Saudi Arabia. Also, some of us believe that the mere concept of hijab is a form of objectification.

    ‘Islam gave women more rights to inheritance from their father, mother, brothers, and husbands that they had never had before’

    What do you have as proof of that?

    ‘-saffiya was married to an abusive husband by her own account and was widowed by 17. she would have been a 17 year old slave girl if Muhammed sAllahu alayhi wa salaam wouldn’t have stepping in and offered her freedom,’

    She was widowed at 17 because Mohammed had her husband killed! Minor point? She would have been a slave girl because Mohammed beseiged her people and that was what they did with the women. You can’t spin that into something good no matter how hard you try,

  95. @ mnm11

    I asked you to show me proof where is it? Your still say tomato and I am saying tomatoe. You apparently have already heard my version and read it. So there is your proof. You read it there for it is.

    Hey, do you know why they call the Jew the people of the book?

    Because they wrote it.

    Guess what I hear in 1000 years everyone will be going to California USA to pay homage to L. Ron Hubbard and the Creator. You know the Church of Scienctology. Scienctology is defined as knowing how to know.

    Now bring me proof. I have brought you proof. I wrote it down. Now believe me as it is compulsory, do not question me, just do.

    Ain’t religion great.

  96. @MoQ and also Prophet Muhammed s.a.w taught us to not insult others gods and religions. Allah subhanu wa t’ala did not assign for the buddha statue to be in Mecca and we were not talking about Mecca. why do you choose me to attack and not say anything about the lies that they are saying?

  97. @mnm11 – ‘you are right. i misspoke. thank you. i said that was my opinion on what should be done, but i forgot to look at the example of the Prophet s.a.w’

    So you are saying that you think that the actions of the prophet were distasteful since he DID demolish other people’s religious site?

  98. @Lynn

    Excellent point.

  99. “why do you choose me to attack and not say anything about the lies that they are saying?”

    LOL, where was the attack.I was just pointing out the fact that you are not following the example of the prophet.

    The fact that your writings are circular, full of hypocrisy, and show a lack of knowledge of your own religion is something I do not have to point out. It is your comments that exposed these issues 😉

  100. @ Lynn

    Very fisty. =) Great points. =)

  101. where is your proof saffiya was raped?

    MNM, You need to read the hadith. Safiyya was taken captive after your prophet attacked and plundered her village, killing people including her husband. And family Note that some were taken as captives/slaves and some were left to live at the village but had to give HALF of their income to your dear prophet. You must be so proud.

    Continuing.. The female captives were divided amongst Muhammad and his followers, to be used as slaves and sexual objects (this is called rape). Because she caught his eye (Quote: the beauty of Safiyyah, daughter of Huyayy was mentioned to him”), Mohammad took Safiyya from another Muslim warrior and married her, setting her free. After their wedding night, your dear prophet stepped out of the tent and was surprised to find a guard there with a sword. He explained: “O Messenger of God, this young woman had just been married, and you killed her father, her brother and her husband, so I did not trust her (not to harm) you.” That sounds like rape to me.
    Only a Muslim would find the sad, evil episode to be wonderful, a great blessing. Your prophet attacked her village without provocation, by surprise, he killed her family, MNM. Do you understand? Ki-l-l. Murder. Slaughter. Then a day or two later he screws her. You say that he saved her from being a slave. What about the other captives that were not as beautiful? Do they matter? Do you care?

    Other people here in this post have mentioned other atrocities but to you this means nothing. You can’t deny the facts, so you ignore them or make up your own facts to fit your set of twisted morals. Can you imagine any other time or place in human history where a woman had sex willingly with the man that killed her entire family? – and their bodies were hardly even cold when this happened and you say ‘praise be upon him’. What manner of people are you, MNM? I really don’t understand this. Maybe I am stupid or immoral or whatever. If this is your idea of virtue and integrity, then I will go to hell, thank you very much. At least in hell murderers and rapists are not consider good and noble people.

    Oh by the way, the Quran requires a waiting period of 3-4 months for widows to remarry (2: 234 – 235), but if anybody had mentioned this about Safiyyah, I am sure Old Gabe would have come down with a special exception for Mohammad, only Mohammad, another.

    So, “christian and jews have invaded lands belonging to muslims and killed, raped, and occupied”. How about this, then: Muslims have invaded lands belonging to christian and jews FIRST, and killed, raped, and occupied. Oh, its not bad when Muslims do it, then! Sorry!

    MNM, unlike you, I don’t make excuses for anybody: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Peter, Paul, Mary, Bush, American soldiers, Bugs Bunny, Crusaders, much less your evil prophet. Murder is murder. It is wrong! Do you understand?

    “We don’t bow before a “rock” – Funny, I have seen pictures with thousands of people bowing before the Kaaba with the black stone and Allah wasn’t anywhere to be seen. Sure looked like they were bowing to a rock.

    I have to go. MNM, as we all know, your prophet did many vile, horrible and evil things, yet you say he was “best example of a man”. How can we live in peace with that mentality? Are you going to attack and kill, enslave and rape the non-Muslims here? That is from your own testimony. What do you expect us to think about Muslims when you say things like that?

  102. @big stick i gave you the name of the man and his tribe. you can do your own research.

    @lynn yes that’s sad, but i believe that more americans do that than saudis. i know a lot of american’s who have had plastic surgery, but i don’t know any saudis who have done it. although i have heard there is a considerable number.

    and Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. killed saffiya’s family (bani mustaliq) because they were plotting against him and readying to attack medinah. i did not copy that point because it had already been made by the side arguing against me. what’s the point in repeating it twice?

  103. @MoQ

    I have a sincere question. If this guy truly interprets his religion in the way he does, why are you trying to dissuade him, and harp on the negatives? Sure, it’s a noble cause showing people the “light”. A hard lesson learned on my part, but faith is a hard thing to change with some people, so if people truly believe their book is infallible, and choose to interpret the passages that ease their day to day life, where’s the harm in that? It’s like how people of other faiths, don’t follow the literal interpretations of their books. Maybe the adherents of Islam are currently undergoing a cultural evolution, where opinions reign supreme over the words of scholars, especially with the increasing access to a breadth of knowledge available for anyone to browse from the comfort of their own place.

  104. @ lynn, no i was apologizing because i spoke too soon falling into all of your traps. what was wrong in my speech was that i said that if people make a pilgrimage to a site than it should not be destroyed. that was my misspeak.
    the kabaa was God’s house before the idols and then the Prophet destroyed them. people made pilgrimage to make offerings to idols. the kabaa is a different circumstance and so is Mecca. i should have clarified my opinion in that and by me making a general statement on my opinion i misspoke.
    i don’t think i’m perfect. i don’t think i have the most knowledge. i don’t think i’m a hypocrite either. i say what i think and do exactly what i believe is right. i acknowledge when i believe i am wrong as many others refuse to do.

  105. @ jay “O Messenger of God, this young woman had just been married, and you killed her father, her brother and her husband, so I did not trust her (not to harm) you.”

    -thats a weak hadith, from a weak narrarrator that has been proved unreliable. look it up for more info.
    i won’t respond to word vomit of hate. i’ve already made my points about this earlier.

  106. and Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. killed saffiya’s family (bani mustaliq) because they were plotting against him and readying to attack medina

    No, the hadith say Mohamad “heard they were gathering”. This was either an unconfirmed report or an excuse to attack a small but rich community. So Mohammad calls in some allies, they go and attack the Banu al-Mustaliq by surprise.

    Oops. They were not gathering. They were not preparing for war. They were going out to work in their fields when your dear prophet and 700 men attacked an undefended village of about 200 men women and children, attacked them, killing ten, enslaving the people and then raping the women. If I member correctly, half of the slaves were related to M’s new bride so they were set free. The other half were not so lucky..

    And that was Juwayriah, not saffiya. Same modus operante, different attack, different women.

    To me, it is obvious that Juwayriah saved 100 people from slavery by giving herself to a 55 year old man. To Muslims, they see it as a woman that found true love on the dead body of her husband, with his murderer, no less.

  107. ‘and Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. killed saffiya’s family (bani mustaliq) because they were plotting against him and readying to attack medinah’

    That does not in the least answer the facts that ‘She was widowed at 17 because Mohammed had her husband killed! Minor point? She would have been a slave girl because Mohammed beseiged her people and that was what they did with the women.’ Like I said, you can’t spin that into something good no matter how hard you try. 😉

    And how exactly does that make a difference? I bet you didn’t excuse Bush when he used the Iraqi ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’ story, did you? hahahaha 😀

  108. man, listening to Jay and MNM it is amazing how the same story can look so different. I am wondering …was Saffiyah’s family ALONE going to go after muhammed? I think that makes a big difference. How can a family compete against an army? That would be suicide.

  109. @ mnm11,

    So you gave me a name of a person who wrote something down. You have no proof. Somebody wrote it down. Lynn has used what was written down to prove you wrong. She destroy you with the very proof you claim exalts him. You already have your belief but you will never have proof. Belief is not proof. All the proof that you have can and is countered by all the proof that says your proof is crap. Anytime something is written and then blessed with the Divine it had better have something more than ink or cravings to back it up otherwise it stands to be critized. I can write that the great big pink unicorn came down and told me that in year 4310 the earth will be destroyed unless you follow my commands. As long as you follow them, do not question me, accept any changes I might have then the Creator will keep earth from being destroyed and you shall be reward with great pleasures of perpetual hard-ons. Seeking pleasure in the great cat house called heaven. Quess what someone who can’t think for themselves, have to believe in something other than humanity, has a gang mentality or just feeling lonely and needs some cohension in life will follow me. Then of course if I tell them, hey now that I have you as followers we cannot have people who do not believe so killed them or they join us. Then later I say hey kill those who want to leave. Then after a while you teach the kids how not to think, question, but to just do it. Provide the kids with all kinds arguements to throw at people even if they sound crazy but hey no critical thought necessary. Hey what do you have your religion.

  110. @ jay yes although earlier in the discussion it was clarified that saffiyah from from bani nadir. misspeak but the same deal. i
    @oby they were tribes with alliances with other tribes but tribes are founded along familial relations so hence “family” but meaning very large extended family.

  111. “the kabaa was God’s house before the idols and then the Prophet destroyed them. people made pilgrimage to make offerings to idols. the kabaa is a different circumstance and so is Mecca.”

    Wrong again. This behavior of destroying idols was not confined to Mecca. The prophet sent his followers in many expeditions to destroy idols. Including:

    – Destruction of the idols of Suwa – Umer Ibn Al Aas got that mission
    – Manat an idol in Ashalli was destroyed by Said bin Zaid who was sent by the prophet
    – There was an expedition all the way to the far lands of Yemen. The sahabi here is Jarir.

    The point mm11 is that you really do not know much about your own religion. The people who are teaching you these things have left a lot of the nasty details away from you. They even twisted facts for you to make murder and rape seem like people receiving the blessings of your prophet. I think being wrong about so many things, should give you pause to reconsider your sources and whether you have evaluated this stuff sufficiently, instead of accusing others of not reading the wrong sources.

    For your information I get all my information from authentic Islamic sources including Quraan, Bukhari, Ibn Kather, etc.

  112. @ big stick i agree with you. i gave you a name and a tribe and told you to look it up. when it comes down to every bit of history most people rely on narrations and what so and so said. although none of us can verify what actually happened. we can all have our on theory. i have my belief and you have yours.

    @lynn as i have already said many times. Prophet Muhammed s.a.w. freed her before he married her. she didn’t get married to get her freedom. she was already free, and she had the option to go back to her people. she CHOSE to get married to the Prophet s.a.w.

    …and actually i didn’t rush to judge bush when the world was lied to and told that saddam was manufacturing nukes. however i was against invading iraq.

  113. @MoQ thank you for the info. were the people of these areas muslim? what was the authenticity of hadith? what book, chapter, etc

  114. You agree with me, thats a start. Great now if people don’t want to believe do you plan on forcing them because of your belief? Are you going to force women to cover when they don’t want to? Are you going to make women property when they don’t want to be? Are you going to kill someone because they decide they don’t like your belief? Are you going to mandate that people must follow your belief by governmental force, death or jail? Just wondering.

  115. Bukhari vol 5 book 59 hadith 643 for the Yemen expedition. Find the rest on your own. Read with a critical eyes this time.

    Would sending an army to a far away land to destroy tribal idols an act of a peace loving man or a tyrant? Does “no compulsion in religion” hold true or is it the saying of man that had no power at the time and changed his mind after gaining power?

    Think!!!!

  116. mnm11,
    @ big stick i agree with you. i gave you a name and a tribe and told you to look it up. when it comes down to every bit of history most people rely on narrations and what so and so said. although none of us can verify what actually happened. we can all have our on theory. i have my belief and you have yours.

    One last point before I have to go. Don’t you think that what you have stated above calls everything about the Quran into question? Given the fact that you must rely on narrations and what so and so said and none of us can verify what actually happened, do you think it possible that the Quran is just that? Something that cannot be verified to have actually ever happened.

    Think about it.

  117. @JC,

    “A hard lesson learned on my part, but faith is a hard thing to change with some people, so if people truly believe their book is infallible, and choose to interpret the passages that ease their day to day life, where’s the harm in that?”

    For someone who claims that his family does not talk to him because of religion, surely you of all people should understand the harm in religion and its dogma.

    Or perhaps these stories are just arguments to lend credence to your story?

    Note this article is about people having their rights stripped by religion. This is a crime against humanity, if you have not noticed.

    The religious have come here raising all kinds of false arguments and pointing fingers instead acknowledging the issues. We are just pointing out the errors of their arguments and the injustice, which results from applying in their dogma.

    At the end of the day, if all what the religious did is worship their God and not try to pass their outdated values as the guiding morals for humanity, then you would not have arguments from me and many others.

  118. @everyone

    Just a friendly intermission. Today we lost a great man 10 years ago, hope you all enjoy this one.

  119. @MoQ

    Which is why it’s a hard lesson learned. I think religion can be a deterrent, and sure it took me my own father awhile to talk with me, while my mom is a work in progress. But they truly believe that my salvation lies in the hand of some sort of higher being, and I know it’s out of love and disappointment. I do not let that phase me, for the people I lack, I have some to make up for it.

    Whether you think they’re true or not, is up to you. I think it would be pretty sad to make something like that up, especially if I have no end game. Good on you for pointing out their errors, but you’re going out of your way to prove their religion is intrinsically evil at its core, while they see the goodness of it and how it supports their day to day life. I believe all the Abrahamic faiths have passages in them that are down right deplorable. Just like how Christianity and Judaism evolved, I see the potential in Muslims as well, to not take such a literal approach.

    All I’m saying, and take it from me, 9 times out of 10 you can never persuade someone out of a belief system. If it’s impacting their lives in a positive manner, there is no harm in that. You know you always hear about baby eating athiests, which is always said in jest. But there is always something to take away from the stories that people believe in. The whole thing about turning the other cheek, is something I try my damnedest to implement in my everyday life (with strangers and family). If I see a wrong, my big mouth won’t stay quiet about it. I just know to respect people for their individual beliefs if they happen to be harmless, in hopes that the world would slowly begin to accept people that lack a belief system.

  120. “Just like how Christianity and Judaism evolved, I see the potential in Muslims as well, to not take such a literal approach.”

    I disagree with you on this Islam cannot be reformed.

    “All I’m saying, and take it from me, 9 times out of 10 you can never persuade someone out of a belief system. If it’s impacting their lives in a positive manner, there is no harm in that.”

    It is an assumption on your part that I want to persuade someone out of their believes. My intent has always been yo tell the truth about religions. It is not the extreme devote that you persuade with logic. It is the others who read the arguments from both sides and have an open mind that you convince with logic.

    “The whole thing about turning the other cheek, is something I try my damnedest to implement in my everyday life”

    Good for you, but some of us think that is idiotic thinking. A person trying to harm me or someone I love will find him/herself on the floor in 1 second. It is called our right for self defense. Similarly, I will argue against wrong ideas with vigor.

    Now stop trying to be the wise old man who is advising us on how to behave. It just sounds arrogant…

    Good luck with the mom project.

  121. @MoQ

    I’m not wise, nor am I old. I’m 25 (makes me feel old going back to school again). I live my life how I choose to live it. From your English, I can assume that you’re not originally American or European for that matter, I could be wrong. But if I’m right, you know people can be different. If you can please point out where I was arrogant, that would be great. I always like bettering myself, and arrogance is a trait that I do not like, whether it’s on an online platform, or in real life. Truth be told, it’s easier in real life, because a smile goes a long way.

    It’s a shame that you don’t think Islam can be reformed, but that could be a matter of opinion. I always try to see the silver lining in things, and that could be a fault in my own personality, who knows. I know Islam in it’s infancy has gone through plenty of changes and amendments, you should definitely read the works of Déroche when it comes to Qur’anic transmission; it sheds some insight, If you’re looking for scholarly theories on Hadith transmissions, I’m a huge fan of Harald Motzki’s work, a brilliant scholar. Since you’re obviously invested in preaching the truth to Muslims specifically (while not taking issue with Oby’s Catholicism rebuttal), you should definitely hint at obtaining the Manuscripta Orientalia journals for Christmas, they always make for a great read.

    Thanks for your sincere wishes. I wouldn’t call it a mom project, but she’ll come around in due time. But I really do appreciate it.

  122. “Since you’re obviously invested in preaching the truth to Muslims specifically (while not taking issue with Oby’s Catholicism rebuttal),”..
    so true

  123. @JC,

    “If you can please point out where I was arrogant,”

    I told you what sounded arrogant. It is that you think you can talk down to people and tell them how to behave. Another clue for you is counting the I’s in every comment you write.

    Regarding Catholicism, I am not new to this blog. I have criticized Christianity many times. Oby as a Catholic never argues that the bible does not have bad verses, she never writes long winded comments about her religion, etc. The difference between Muslims and Oby is the constant denial of every bad thing about the religion (which there are plenty)

    JC, you sound more and more like an Islamic apologist than an Atheist. I am not buying what your selling 😉

  124. Muslim Prayers of Hate

    Researching the web in connection to an article, dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood’s assertion that all who reject Sharia law are “drunks, druggies, and adulterers”, I came upon another “related article” of none other than Sheik Abdullah Nihari—the most animated of all the clerics in the islamic world.

    Apparently Nihari’s rage is directed at those “Westernizing” Muslim authorities who, while limiting Quran/Islamic studies, do little to prevent the spread of “alcohol, drugs, and adultery.” He issues his “prayer,” as follows:

    Lord, Lord, we condemn them before you!! Freeze the blood in their veins!! Strike them with evil, or at the very least freeze the blood in their veins—until they pray for death, but do not receive it!! O lord! O lord! O lord!…

    Here’s another “gem” by a very popular Egyptian preacher, Sheik Muhammad al-Zoghbi:

    May Allah cut your tongue out! May he freeze the blood in your veins! May he inflict you with cancer and allow you no reprieve… Allah, strike them with all sorts of disease, afflictions and pain! Allah, strike them with cancer! Allah, let your prophet overpower them! Allah destroy them! Allah destroy them! Allah destroy them! Allah destroy the criminals who challenge the noble prophet! [Then, very serenely addressing his Muslim viewers]: And peace upon you, and Allah’s mercy and blessings.

    Read the article at the link below and see how other high profile Muslim leaders “pray”—including formal Mecca prayers supplicating Allah to make the lives of Christians and Jews “hostage to misery; drape them with endless despair, unrelenting pain and unremitting ailment; fill their lives with sorrow and pain and end their lives in humiliation and oppression.”

    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/10669/muslim-prayers-of-hate

  125. JC…

    “Which is why it’s a hard lesson learned. I think religion can be a deterrent, and sure it took me my own father awhile to talk with me, while my mom is a work in progress. But they truly believe that my salvation lies in the hand of some sort of higher being, and I know it’s out of love and disappointment. I do not let that phase me, for the people I lack, I have some to make up for it.”

    Quick story:

    I was born and raised Catholic. My father is a Catholic…a very staunch one. By that I mean he is very faithful in prayer, attending mass etc. but one of the variety that MoQ mentioned above…he worships his god and doesn’t force it on anyone else, he believes secular law and religion shouldn’t mix. That kind of thing. When I was in college, I moved away from the church and dabbled with other ideas. I personally had no conflict with this. My father became very distraught for the same reason you mentioned about salvation. He was truly worried for my soul. My mother (who was a convert to Catholicism) one day told him “you have done what you can to teach your daughter. You have been faithful to what you feel God has told you to do. The rest is up to her. This is between her and God. Her soul is not your responsibility.” I guess my dad took that to heart because he became very peaceful and let it go. Even now he is still the most “religious” of the family (my sister and I attend mass as does my mom but that is for ourselves and our choice, not my dad. Even now, when I visit them sometimes I don’t attend mass with them and he is OK. Of all the family, he is most steeped in his faith) But my level of piety which is less than his has not gotten in the way of our relationship. I say this to tell you even when it feels like there is NO WAY that this divide can be bridged and family is gone…people can and do turn around and surprise you. (Hope the story wasn’t too much of a snore. 🙂

  126. Thanks, MoQ. 🙂

  127. @oby – ‘I say this to tell you even when it feels like there is NO WAY that this divide can be bridged and family is gone…people can and do turn around and surprise you.’

    We can only hope. But, oby, there is a big difference between Catholicism and Islam – Catholicism does not call for the death of those who leave it or who never accepted it so it would be easier for a Catholic dad (or daughter) to get over it than a Muslim one. IMO

  128. @MoQ thanks i’ll read it. i always do think, and my belief is just as strong in my faith. i have experienced personal miracles that have made my faith stronger. sometimes things happen and we can’t always explain why they happened because being human we have limited knowledge, but Allah subhanu wa t’ala has all knowledge. i respect ur right to disagree with me and everyone else’s, but i don’t believe that u truly understand the nature of Islam. i don’t think that if u don’t believe in Islam that you should be executed (Abu Talib never believed and wasn’t executed) and i don’t think that you should be executed for apostating either. there are many islamic scholars that agree with this as well.

    @bigstick isn’t that the whole idea behind religion? its an act of faith. u never have the concrete proof in front of u. its something in the texts and stories that stirs something inside of u, speaks to u, and moves u. no one can see God, but does that mean that God doesn’t exist? humans can perceive of only 3 dimensions, but does that mean that there are only 3? i can’t put something in front of you and say this is the absolute proof. this world is a test.

  129. @lynn
    actually in the past catholicism has called for the deaths of those preaching against it. spanish inquisition? crusades? bloody mary of england? my point is that evil people use religion to their own ends. it doesn’t mean that the religion is evil, just the people who twist it.

  130. @mnm11 – ‘I can’t put something in front of you and say this is the absolute proof.’

    Of course not but there are MANY things about Islam that we can put down in front of us to see that it is absolute bullshit that is NOT intended to foster peace on Earth! There is not enough ‘positive’ hidden in it to make up for all the CLEAR ugliness and evil in it. IMO

  131. @mnm11 -‘actually in the past catholicism has called for the deaths of those preaching against it. spanish inquisition?’

    Actually, that was not ‘Catholism’ that did that but rather the leaders at that time. The Quran however, DOES call for it. BIG difference.

  132. Bible calls for the death of apostates too.
    It’s all the same. Islam has been ”inspired”, or plagiarized, whatever you prefer, from Judaism and Christianity.
    And give Christians power and let them indoctrinate little children as much as Islam does and it will be just as evil.

    I can only hope people will start reading these magic books with an open mind, and not with pink sugar coated glasses, and see what they are, the outdated, barbaric actions, imaginings and misogynist rules of an ancient set of men who were far below us in development, not only scientifically but morally as well.

    The reason religions have to harp so much on ”faith” and ”belief” is because they cannot prove anything they claim and they know it. That’s why they work so hard to elevate gullibility and ”blind faith” above logic and reason and truth. Because as soon as we shine the clear light of reason on these ancient myths and imaginings we can see what they are for real, and we stop believing in imaginary invisible nasty bearded men in the sky.

  133. @lynn – don’t worry your dughter willcome around.. eventually she will realize that she can have islam and a non-islamic mother 🙂
    I have a soft spot for muslims , because i’m married to one, there are muslims in this planet who really do care about you irrespective of your religion, Like oby said F feels he is responsible only for himself where religion is concerned.

    so it happens lynn, after the maturing happens and after the brainwashing is washed away 🙂 keep hope

  134. mnm11, You know why they have to explain to you why it was such a lovely fate for a 17 year young traumatized girl to be forced to have sex with the man responsible for killing her family and torturing and killing her husband?
    While the bodies of her beloved were not even cold in the grave?
    Because you are better than that. You know in your heart that such acts, murder, torture enslavement and rape are all evil, the worst crimes humans can commit.
    You know this, you are a good and morally advanced human being. If you had read these stories before they had gotten at you you would have seen them for what they are and dismissed them as evil the same as I do. The people who taught you Islam know that. So they make up stories, and twist around and around trying to make a silver purse out of a pig’s ear, (as the Dutch saying goes) and they taught you to jump around in intellectual acrobatics as soon as you start questioning or meet people who are critical. Because you are committed to this religion you cannot allow yourself to re-think, to take some distance and look at these stories with a rational mind.
    If you would do that you would be in danger of becoming an apostate.

  135. @lynn the head of the catholic church is the pope. many previous popes have called for the deaths of heretics. more people have probably be killed in the name of catholicism’s purging of heretics than islam. the quran calls for muslims to fight the disbelievers that are oppressing muslims, not any person that doesn’t believe in islam. also in islam jews and christians can also be believers not just muslims.

  136. But Jews and Christians are cursed already in the first sura of the Quran, which you recite before you pray. I think if you follow all the rules you curse the Jews and Christians a minimum of 17 times a day.
    Every day.

  137. @AA and you have yet to explain why saffiyah chose to be with Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. when she was already free and had the choice to go back to her people.
    yeah its a gruesome story. her family was trying to kill the Prophet s.a.w. and so a war was waged and the men of her family was killed. so her and the Prophet were married and an alliance was formed. happens all the time throughout history over a thousand years ago. these were brutal times. she was given a choice and she chose to be married to the Prophet. later she described how she came to forgive him. if you even read the hadiths she narrated she spoke of him in loving terms.
    and rape is not condoned in islam. its punishable by death.

  138. actually no they’re not. that is ibn kathir’s opinion on what that means. jews and christians are NOT mentioned in al fatiha. don’t LIE.

    translation

    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    2. Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the world;
    3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
    4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
    5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
    6. Show us the straight way,
    7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
    those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

  139. @AA say ur points, and if u really believed them then you wouldn’t have to LIE

  140. surah 5:69 “Believers, Jews, Sabians, Christians whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right, shall have nothing to fear or regret.”

  141. @radha – ‘so it happens lynn, after the maturing happens and after the brainwashing is washed away’

    Then I will need my own brain washed of all the pain she has caused our family. She can’t ever make it up to her brother now that he is gone 😦

  142. @MoQ

    And where did I tell people how to behave? Where do I come off like a Muslim apologist? So far you’ve called my treatment of people idiotic, that I sound arrogant, and insinuating that I’m a liar. If you bothered to read up on those scholars I’ve mentioned, you would realize any traditional Islamic scholar would not be pleased with their writings. Being offended by certain comments in this blog, and offering a rebuttal that may clash with people’s narratives of an Arab might not sit well with everyone here, does not mean I am an apologist. Thanks for noting my use of “I’s”, I’m not the world’s best writer. It’s hard to avoid “I’s”, when using personal anecdotes.

    Also, I’m not selling anything for you to buy. I have to say the use of smilies in this blog is interesting.

    @oby

    Thanks for sharing, that was really interesting to read. I agree with your sentiments, in that people can turn around and surprise you. I wrote this to MoQ, “Thanks for your sincere wishes. I wouldn’t call it a mom project, but she’ll come around in due time. But I really do appreciate it.” So yeah it’s not something to get you down, and burn bridges over.

  143. @mnm11

    Religion isn’t bad it is a written book. It is how it is applied. Good men can take a religious book and do good things and bad do bad. Yes, both will say that they did it in the name of the creator. Hopefully, you will excuse me when I say that God had nothing to do with it, humanity had everything to do with it. Humanity is capable of greatness, genorosity, compassion, and spirituality. It is also capable of great destruction and hate. I guess you could say that religion is like a gun. Neither one will kill someone on its own but put into the wrong hands it can be lethal. It can also be used to keep peace but there is always some threat such as soul goes to hell or a bullet. For those who use it as a private matter and don’t inflict their views on others through government control, oppressive means, apartheid, or death, I have no problems with it. But I dislike people who stick there head in the sand to the atrocities outlined in all these books and make excuses for them. Try to justify murder, rape, torture for not believing in Islam, Jewish, Christian or the big bad cause. I dislike people that lie about their religion, cherry pick it as if horrors didn’t exist and that is was and is condoned. I have no problems with Christians as they have faced most of their issues on violence and thrown out the atrocities by not giving it any weight. They have accepted that the doctrine has this violence and it should not be adhered to. They are now going through another transition to level the gender apartheid as a means to stop the violence against women that it causes by putting back aspects of the female contributions that were taken out, hidden or blantantly changed. The fact is that the religion is growing up and letting people be adults in whether they accept it on their terms. I do not believe that God would have anything to do with religion. Religion would sicken god on its inhumanity and this is my view. Faith without reason is blind.

    Next subject. You keep coming back to this forum which indicates to me two things.
    1) You truly want to convince others of your doctrine; or
    2) You are questioning your own understanding and interpretation, thus engaging in debates to expand your knowledge and understanding the perspectives of other.

    Only you know the answer but I suspect it is the second choice.

    I don’t find you to be a radical and you seem reasonable. I do not agree with your position on religion that will not change. My belief is anything that calls itself divine deserves great, great scrunity if the hand of mankind touch it. You will excuse me when I state the men are known to become corrupt quite easily once they have assumed power. As far as I am concerned the life and details of Muhammed definitely fits that profile. He goes from peaceful when he has nothing to murderous when he has power. That is the facts laid out in the koran and hadith.

    FAITH WITHOUT REASON IS BLIND

  144. Good somment bigstick.
    Why bigstick? You don’t sound as if you are going to come after us with a big stick?

  145. @Aafke-Art

    Two reasons:

    1) A like the quote by Theodore Roosevelt .

    “I speak softly but carry a big stick”

    2) I like stirring it up to see where it goes. Just my thing. I enjoy engaging in debates as it expands my knowledge and understanding of someone’s perspective. My belief is if you put it out there expect someone to disagree. I expect not everyone will agree with me. I am adult enough to accept that and have definitely agreed to disagree. That is the beauty of humanity and all its differences.

  146. @ lynn – ” She can’t ever make it up to her brother now that he is gone”

    you have to let that go, that is between her brother and her and if she cannot make it up to himthat is he pain to bear.

    you have to let the past go, you have no choice, we’ve already established that you are the one with a brain 🙂 and hence capable of rational thought.

    the key is she comes out and sees the world quickly, the more seeped in the culture one is the longer it takes, but if she doesn’t want any contact with you, you pretty much have to respect that and let go. how ? i don’t know.

  147. @mm11,

    You are now straying even further in your sugar coating of Islam. As an Arabic speaker I can tell verse number 7 does not read as you stated. Look up a better translation of the Quran.

    This following translation is similar to what it says in Arabic:

    “the path of those who have received your grace;
    not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray”

    Now you also say that what is meant by “the ones that brought down the wrath” and “wandered astray” is not the Jews and Christians respectively. That only Ibn Kathir (which wrote the most used Tafsir of the Quran) had that opinion. Well how about all the other major scholars like Tabari, Zamakhshari, etc. who also agreed with Inn Kathir.

    Again, you either do not know your own religion well, or just out to spread misinformation.

  148. @JC,

    So far all I heard from you is arguments about how I treat people, why should I choose a subject, etc. If that is not telling people how to behave I do not know what is.

    What subjects interest me, what comments I choose to respond to, any judgments I choose to develop, etc. are my choices and mine only. Now if you want to engage on a healthy debate on any topic other than what drives MoQ’s choices, then we may have something to talk about. Until then I won’t respect any comment or opinion you hold.

    Note my opinions are mine also. So if I think you are an arrogant fake, guess what you have no choice in the matter. Just learn to live with it or avoid interacting with me (note it was your choice to comment to me to start with)

    Does that clear it up for you?

    😉

  149. @MoQ

    I already stated that your opinions and conclusions are up to you. I did not argue with you about how you treat people. My comment was a sincere question, to understand your mindset. But thanks, carry on with the circle jerk you’ve got going on here.

  150. Like Radha, I will always have a soft spot for Muslims. After all, I have a large extended family who are Muslims and my late husband was a gentle and loving Muslim man.

    et al: Good luck to anyone who chooses to debate with MoQ! (smile)

  151. @JC,

    “…circle jerk…”

    You are not succeeding in the turn the other cheek strategy of yours are you?

    “My comment was a sincere question, to understand your mindset.”

    For your info, you have too many I’s in your comments to make you sound sincere. It is a sign of someone who has a hyper sense of self. I hope some day you will grow out of it grasshopper.

    And since you do not understand gentle guidance about where personal boundaries start, I have to be blunt: “what my mindset is about is frankly none of your business”….

  152. Wow. Boy’s locker room is smelling.

    Okay JC/MoQ:

    Have you thought about finding out what common ground your two have? MoQ it sounds like you are great deal further head in the process than JC. JC is dealing with some external struggles of family. He is at a different level and might need to go at a different pace that would ultimately ensure success. Just saying maybe you two have the same objective just a different way of getting there.

    Don’t kill the damn ref.

  153. Salamalaik…american bedu,are u a muslim??
    If yes,itz quite shocking 2 c dat u allow all hateful and derogatary comments by kuffaar on ur blog…I enjoyed your blog…but after dis I don’t think I’ll b visiting again…2 all ppl who r unhappy about hai’a/mutawwa,jus move out of saudi if u dnt lyk it…in dis way der will b space 4 those of us who would like to be governed by these beautiful injunctions…may Allah swt guide all.. Ma’asalama

  154. bint..thanks for your comment..always nice when people come out from lurking…but just a thought…on blogs we do not write our comments in “text” english…because we have plenty of space and time to formulate comphrehensible sentences that are easy to read. I’m not understanding how you feel the need to shorten “dat” but then write out “derogatory”? Interesting.

    And to counter reply to your comment..for those who do not like the subjects and comments on American Bedu…then leave and let the rest of us go at it….ah…but you are leaving..so then everything is good.

    Carry on. 😉

  155. Bint, While I had some difficulty reconstructing your atrocious misuse of the English language into something understandable, your comment gave me a lot enjoyment and I blame you for the series of events following this brilliant sentence:
    *If yes,itz quite shocking 2 c dat u allow all hateful and derogatary comments by kuffaar on ur blog*

    I snorted, sprayed my computer screen with tea, meanwhile a spastic jerk of the hand doused my now indignant cat who jumped off my lap using his claws for extra purchase and cutting the skin of my legs with hot tea, and all the while I had to try and safe my laptop while still in a spasmodic crunch due to your silly comment.

    Keep it up, next time I am warned before trying to read your efforts at the English language.
    Thanks also for being such an excellent example of those Muslims who are rude, call everybody they don’t like kuffaar, and cannot write in English.

  156. @bint

    Awe. Now you’ve done it and gone and hurt my widdle feelings. We luv you. Don’t worry we aren’t talking about you. You can stay in little cage if you want. Now, Now, little bird rest assured nobody will force you out.

    However leave the rest of the population alone that doesn’t want the cage. No one asked you to give up your cage.

  157. @bigstick,

    Fair enough. I do not mind him dealing with his own issues the way he feels is appropriate.

    At issue is over stepping the boundaries and questioning other people personal choices. From my point of view his question and comments were condescending and irrelevant to the discussion and debate. All what he received back is similar attitude.

    And I seriously question his motives and the stories he tries to sell here. Just an opinion I have formed from reading his many comments and their tone.

  158. @MoQ
    The whole thing about turning the other cheek, is something I try my damnedest to implement in my everyday life (with strangers and family).

    The key word here is try. Also, by circle jerk which I’m sure you know the meaning of the term, but for others, I’ll add a definition from the dictionary of all things slang: http://www.urbandictionary.com

    “Oftentimes ‘circle-jerking’ will occur during meeting times when people feel the need to express their own opinions over and over for the sake of hearing their own voice. Furthermore, they will speak in circles, never actually reaching a point, therefore, appearing like a total jerk off…the entire session then seems like youve experienced a circle-jerk.”

    Which is the very definition of what is going on the comment section for the most, not that it makes anyone of the commentators jerk-offs (I thought that was excessive). The commentators reiterate their ideas, whether they’re Muslims, or Non-Muslims, never really reaching a point. So it’s like a dual circle jerk, it’s pretty interesting sometimes.

    ““My comment was a sincere question, to understand your mindset.”

    For your info, you have too many I’s in your comments to make you sound sincere. It is a sign of someone who has a hyper sense of self.”

    If you’re going based on the use of I’s. Based on a previous comment of yours, that is first contact I’ve had with you. If you look at my original question, I’ve only used I once.

    “It is a sign of someone who has a hyper sense of self. I hope some day you will grow out of it grasshopper.”

    Again, thanks for making me aware that I come across like that online.

    “And since you do not understand gentle guidance about where personal boundaries start, I have to be blunt: “what my mindset is about is frankly none of your business””

    My apologies if I crossed any personal boundaries. Maybe it’s different cultures, but I thought it was not personal since you’re actively engaged debates that hint at your mindset. Asking before assuming always served me right, so hence the question: to be fair it was two, the first is quite understandable that you took issue with it (your personal boundaries and all). The second was in hopes of starting a discussion. Not one that revolves on what drives your choices, but possibly the potential harm in believing in something false, despite seeing good in it.

    @Bigstick

    Thanks for the interjection. While there is a common ground based on lack of belief, I think we have different methods of discussing said views. Which is cool, to each his own.

    On a personal note. While there may be external struggles concerning my family, I can honestly say I’m at a point in my life where I’m content with the direction it is heading in. I’m genuinely happy and confident, for the first time.

    @bint
    “2 all ppl who r unhappy about hai’a/mutawwa,jus move out of saudi if u dnt lyk it…in dis way der will b space 4 those of us who would like to be governed by these beautiful injunctions”

    Thanks for illustrating my point from an earlier post that the majority of Saudi Arabians are content with the status quo. Although, it’s unfair of you to assume that anyone who is not content with the laws that govern Saudi Arabia, can choose to up and leave. It’s not a simple process, and not possible for many that possibly may want to leave, on account of theocratic rule.

    Since you take pride in your faith, why would comments offend you? They’re just words on a screen. Have you ever thought to step out of your comfort zone, and think of other Saudies that may not share your religious views; why would you rather us leave, rather than accommodate your fellow country men and women, and make Saudi Arabia a safe and open haven for the people that happen to be in the minority?

  159. @MoQ

    You aways have the right to question. Hey, I overstep the bounds all the time, see doing it now. Just tell him that it is an off-limits topic. Then leave it alone or say not talking about it.

    However, he has the right to deal with his progression his way. Losing your religion can be like a death and almost falling feeling. It takes time to re-adjust. You have get your sea legs. Couple that with family issues over the loss and it prolongs the suffering.

    Just saying it can be difficult on people.

  160. @JC,

    Here is why I question your sincerity.

    “My apologies if I crossed any personal boundaries. Maybe it’s different cultures, but I thought it was not personal since you’re actively engaged debates that hint at your mindset. ”

    You apologized, but not until you pivoted with a long condescending rants before and after. That is called a hollow apology, not intended to make others feel better, but to make you look like you are the one reaching out at the same time not giving up anything. Learn how to do better than that. Everything about you is fake including your apology 😉

    @ Bigstick, I hope he finds himself. I am still not buying it….

  161. Bint, just a hint: If you are looking for a cosy coven of salafi/wahhabi cronies, where you can support each other in religious bigotry and backbite the kuffaar and feast your imagination on images of the disgusting tortures your peaceful loving God will bring upon them you are definitely at the wrong forum.

  162. @MoQ

    “You apologized, but not until you pivoted with a long condescending rants before and after.”

    Not really. I was explaining myself, I did not understand that I crossed any personal boundaries, so hence the explanation, long-winded or not.

    “That is called a hollow apology, not intended to make others feel better, but to make you look like you are the one reaching out at the same time not giving up anything. Learn how to do better than that. Everything about you is fake including your apology”

    I obviously do care about my words not being misconstrued, whether it’s do improper word usage, or a perceived notion of arrogance. Like I’ve mentioned after you called me fake once or twice, that choice is yours to make, and you have already made that statement.

  163. Marriage counseling? Maybe?

    How hard is it to just apologize and accept. Jeeze.

  164. @JC,

    I made my points. Everyone with the maturity level above a teenager knows the difference between a sincere apology from a fake one.

    Next time you want to engage in a conversation, make it about a topic not others motives from the get go.

    Bye for now..

  165. @ JC

    Questions:

    So do you live in or outside the kindom of oppression?
    Are the numbers of people who want less oppression growing?

    If you can’t answer just say so.

  166. @Bigstick,

    An apology is really simple. It is 3 words that go like this “I am sorry”, not a rant.

    I am really not looking for an apology, just to end this circular discussion.

    Anyway, we just got JC’s image of liberty and freedom. Since a majority of women in Saudi agree with their captivity (accepting the premise for sake of argument), then it is OK for the religious clerics and government to suppress the rights of all women.

    Now JC, for a real debate how do you justify such position? What is your definition of liberty? Can a religious minority or majority force their ideology and their rules on others? How do you reconcile that with your supposed atheist believes?

  167. @Bigstick

    No problem. For your first question, I’m currently living in the west coast in the United States. As to your second, I can’t really answer that question objectively. There are certainly calls for reform, but then again the voices that are out there, tend to be more technologically oriented than the people who are opposed to reform. You have to keep in mind that we are discussing country that is still debating whether they should let women drive or not; I think that’s a sign of the lack of a need for genuine change, and by genuine change, I mean a secular overhaul of Saudi Arabia.

    It should be noted, that while I may view it as oppression, the Saudi Arabians that do oppose reform (minor, or major), do not view it as such.

    @MoQ
    “Since a majority of women in Saudi agree with their captivity (accepting the premise for sake of argument), then it is OK for the religious clerics and government to suppress the rights of all women.

    Now JC, for a real debate how do you justify such position?”

    First of of all. I never stated that I think it’s okay for religious clerics, or a government to suppress the rights of all women. I had this reply in a previous post:

    “It’s not that the women do not have guts, people really forget that a large number of them are content with their status. It’s pretty much tyranny of the majority. A campaign of withholding sex from their husbands would be widely unsuccessful, no one wants angels cursing them for denying their husbands a romp.”

    I do not agree with the situation, but expecting for proper reform for all is not feasible in Saudi Arabia (a sentiment I assume you agree with, since you believe Islam as a whole cannot be reformed), when the majority are content with the status quo.

    “What is your definition of liberty?”
    Liberty is where your rights to believe in what you want, marry who you want, and preach what you want are protected by the government. Where laws are put in place, to avoid the tyrannical tendencies of the majority to oppress the minority. I draw most of my ideas from one of my favorites writers on the subject of Utilitarianism, John Stuart Mill. I’m not one for anarchy, I believe everything should be limited to a certain degree, and Mill has given me a solid basis for my views on where we draw the line. If I’m not mistaken it’s in his, “On Liberty”, where he highlights the harm principle, which serves as the basis for my views on which actions should be protected by a greater body of law.

    “Can a religious minority or majority force their ideology and their rules on others?”

    If you’re asking if I think that’s “right”, the answer is no. If your question is to determine whether it’s possible for an ideology to be forced on a minority, or in some cases a majority; the answer is yes. There have been countless examples in history of forced conversions, and you don’t have to go too far and only look at Saudi Arabia who claim to have a 100% Muslim population.

    “How do you reconcile that with your supposed atheist believes?”

    What am I exactly trying to reconcile?

  168. Quote: i don’t think that if u don’t believe in Islam that you should be executed (Abu Talib never believed and wasn’t executed) and i don’t think that you should be executed for apostating either. there are many islamic scholars that agree with this as well.

    MNM, The problem is that all Islamic schools of jurisprudence, both shia and sunni, agree that the penalty for apostasy and blasphemy is death. The fact is that many Islamic societies have laws to this respect, also, not to mention the general and very violent reaction occurring when anyone leaves Islam or says something that can be consider an insult, real or not.

    On the other hand, I have never spoken to a Muslim that believes that apostates should die.

    So, why the contradiction between what Muslims say here (or in the West) and what happens where Islam dominates?

    There are three possible answers:
    1. You are lying, only saying things that you want non-Muslims to hear.
    2. You are an ignorant fool and irresponsible because you accept things that are wrong, and you associate with those that teach hate and do evil. .
    3. You don’t care about other people (non-Muslims) because we are kaffir scum.

    See, MNM, that is a very logical position. Which is your case? You say that is wrong but you go to mosque built by people that support murder and listen to sermons by people that do these vile things and you do nothing but say “I don’t believe”. You, too, have blood on your hands. You denials are not good enough.

    I think as a non-Muslim, I have a right to be skeptical about your morals and honesty – until I see major changes in Islamic dogma, until Muslims denounce the vile actions of their prophet and until Islamic societies repeal those barbaric laws – I don’t believe that Muslims, even you, are against murder of innocent people. It is that simple.

    You are all talk and no action. You don’t even know your own writings.

    Please note that you are wrong about this (killing for apostasy) because there is an instruction by your prophet that clearly says “Kill anyone that changes his religion” and that is from a strong hadith so don’t even try the usual weak hadith argument. Note also that Muslims always add the word “Islamic” to that phrase, for obvious reasons.

    Oh, by the way, you know that your dear prophet sent his men to attack a mosque (a mosque, mind you!!) filled with women and children (yes, how pathetic) and the quran says it was because of, yes, UNBELIEF. So how do you reconcile that action with your “no Compulsion” excuse? Give it a shot. If you don’t know the verse I am talking about I will give it to you or just Google it. If there were no compulsion, then there would be no attack because of unbelief.

    Also, Just for fun, here is a link to a Muslim site that explains the attack on the banu al-Mustaliq. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch4s12.html

    I link to it because I want you to read it and note the distortions and omissions. Note the soviet 1950s style writing. Note that the writer makes sure the reader does not think, giving the motives of both the evil villagers (Full of rancour and hypocrisy) and the Islamic attackers (full of nobility, dignity and purity of souls). Yeah. Note that it is always those vile non-Muslims that cause mischief. Note that the account doesn’t mention that there were no preparation for war and the villagers were going out to work in the fields when they were attacked. Note how the killing is deemed unimportant (“some”). Note that there is no mention of enslavement (only the word ‘captives’). Note that the narrative omits the rape of the women. Note how the necklace affair and its implication with regard to the murder of young girls today is ignored. Note that it was Mohammad’s own actions (like screwing his daughter in law, Zainab) that caused the unrest mentioned in the story. Yeah, blame it all of infidels.

    And you are trying to teach me, who has actually read your writings, about these events? I have forgotten more than you ever knew about the history and text of your religion.

    Just in case you don’t know, the necklace affair (or slander affair) was also provoked by Mohammad himself, not those evil infidels. He took a new bride (Juwairiyah) when Aisha was there with him, an insult to any woman, and she went off to sulk. To make matters worse Mohammad then came up with a revelation to help his child bride but which has been used to condemned innocent and abused women to death. As I have said, Allah and Mohammad don’t care about little girls.

    I have yet to find a Muslim that can get the basic facts right about their own history. It must always be retold and enhanced to fit the image that Muslims want for Islam, or in the words of the text, and I quote, …”due to the noble values, refined ethics and high attributes that imbued the Muslim community and whoever was attached to it. The enemies of Islam were already aware of that flood of light derived wholly from the person of the Prophet [pbuh] , who always stood as an excellent exemplar for men to copy and follow.”

    Yeah, right

  169. @JC,

    “I do not agree with the situation, but expecting for proper reform for all is not feasible in Saudi Arabia (a sentiment I assume you agree with, since you believe Islam as a whole cannot be reformed), when the majority are content with the status quo.”

    Great, now back to your original comment about no Harm in people using religion to get through their daily lives. It is religion and its dogma that allows these same peaceful people to support and or ignore such violations of human rights and individual liberty.

    I do not believe Islam can be reformed. However, I do believe that individuals can be educated about the religion. its origin and the basis of such rulings. This extends back to the prophet and his tyrannical control. There is no valid criticism of Islam which can ignore the central character of the religion.

    Yes it is not the soft touch you propose. It is shaking people so they understand the realities. I do not think I can convince the likes of mm11, but such debates are opportunities to educate others. You may disagree with it, but I believe it is a successful method that works for me. I do not claim millions can be changed in the ME in a short period of time, but you reach them a few at a time.

    The method of turning the other cheek has not worked. A good example is in the US. Atheists have played the intellectual game for decades. They respected religions and were timid in arguing vigorously against them. That has not moved the needle much. In the last 2 decades the situation has changed dramatically with the likes of Hitchens, Bill Maher, Dawkins, etc, becoming vocal adversary of the influence of religion in politics, science and law. Since then Atheists have made great strides in breaking through. Atheists are no longer ashamed of being rationalist and are coming out in droves. They dominate most free debates. The numbers of none religious are growing by the day. Further, we are gaining political influence as our numbers are becoming too high to ignore by politicians.

    My point JC, is that we can respect individuals rights to believe in religion, but we should not bow down or accept outdated ideologies dominating the public debate, just because we are afraid to hurt the feelings of others. Those individuals should not share their ideologies if they are afraid of others debating them .

  170. @MoQ

    Christopher Hitchens is remarkable, even with his advanced cancer he still manages to attend conferences, and take questions. Just had to put it out there, the guy never ceases to amaze me, especially having the balls to critique Mother Teresa. Sam Harris is another outspoken atheist whom I admire, but truth be told I’m more of a fan of Neil deGrasse Tyson’s approach. I can’t remember off the top of my head, but he said something really profound in the vein of Sagan (Sagan could have said it first): that we’re all made of stardust. The interconnectedness of that statement is stunning, we are from the “heavens”,figuratively speaking of course.While I appreciate the efforts of the “four horsemen”, I myself am do not follow their approach, because it does not suit my personality.

    Buddy, I’m all for debates, and exchanging thoughts. Whether it’s with friends, or strangers. You are absolutely right that these exchanges serve to educate others, but you have to keep the context and the platform of the discussion in mind, is it reaching a larger audience? I never said I disagree with you engaging with people that are obviously not going to change their views, I was curious as to why.

  171. @Radha – ‘you pretty much have to respect that and let go.’

    Yes, and I think I have, (well, maybe minus the ‘respect’ part ;-))

    It is what it is and I leave her alone. I may be able to forgive her some day but I suspect that I will NEVER regain the respect I once had for Islam (not Muslims).

  172. @bint -‘2 all ppl who r unhappy about hai’a/mutawwa,jus move out of saudi if u dnt lyk it…’

    I agree with you 100%

  173. It’s such an inane phrase, ”if you don’t like it leave”. As if that is possible. As if a woman could even leave the country if her owner doesn’t allow it! As if there are not practical and financial obstacles, and ties of love and affection.
    Such a stupid comment.

    The only kind of person it could apply to would be a single well-to-do male with major professional skills which would allow him to get a decent job abroad and no family to keep him back.

  174. @lynn – I agree with you 100%.

    IMO – I think any new religion is always more fearful of losing it’s following and trying actively to colletc them… .

    I also think culture plays a very large part.. at the cost of sounding like a broken record, i have seen so many many muslims in india that are 100% diff int heir interpretation and living style from the saudi ones. It is not my place to comment who is right but the indina muslims are culturally like the other indian ( hindu an dotherwise) and saudis follow arab culture.

    So when i see muslims i’m used to the milder ones. the ones who share their religion – by share they invite us for EID but also willingly celebrate diwali with us. ( here inthe US i don’t see that) it’s ok to invite me for iftar but it’s a sin to come eat at my place for diwali — so i’ll tell you about mine but i wont reciprocate?

    As for the muslims in MI don’t get me started, again not all but i have not seen a bunch of more hypocritical judgemental people in my life.
    The canton mosque is especially bad – mrrying for GC, Cheating, marrying multiple women without the knowledge of one another for material gain ( trust me no widows orphans there) , scams, Medicare scams and god knows what else…so much so that F wouldn’t set foot in that place.
    The ladies ganged up on my then 12-13yr old daughter once when i was out and F took her and her brother to the mosque and had her in tears — well F is not to be toyed with and i just look tame. so next friday we went right back took my baby along and chewed them out.
    ann arbor mosque is no better , but then again it’s the culture of the people who pray there . nothing can be done. doesn’t mean all muslims are idiots like those there . it’s a combination of upbringing, brainwashing, culture, fear, piety and a load of other stuff.

  175. @radha – ‘The ladies ganged up on my then 12-13yr old daughter’

    They really like that age, don’t they? What did they do to your daughter? Did they let her know that Mommy was going to be burning in the hellfire for eternity but she could still save herself – ‘here’s a hijab, it will make you look soooo pretty’ Grrrrr!

  176. @lynn – It was more abotu how she was going to burn in hell fire since she choose to go with her mom 🙂 childcare logistics/working schedules etc., seeemed beyond them.. but i think the Bindi on her forehead set them off !! once they figured F out they backed off a bit.

    they became really sweet and accepting of me, our family, religionetc., when i hinted that maybe we wouldn’t dispense free medical care and advise to their vising without insurance parents , ya ya i know hippocrates is probably rolling in his grave .. but what to do, i’m as flawed as the next human 🙂

  177. Salaam alaikhoum all. Just through interest how are they going to employ female members of the public to help them, and what will they expect these ladies to wear!? Does it also go against their ideals that ladies should not work and be accompanied by mahram male relatives when they are out?? Just through interest, what would these muttwa do if their was a genuine confrontation (say with Iran) Would they be drafted into the army?! Maasalaama, Amelia

  178. @radha -‘ya ya i know hippocrates is probably rolling in his grave …’

    I’m sure he is but I doubt it’s because of you. 😉

  179. @mnm11 “isn’t that the whole idea behind religion? its an act of faith. u never have the concrete proof in front of u. its something in the texts and stories that stirs something inside of u, speaks to u, and moves u. no one can see God, but does that mean that God doesn’t exist? humans can perceive of only 3 dimensions, but does that mean that there are only 3? i can’t put something in front of you and say this is the absolute proof. this world is a test.”

    You know I just have to comment on this one a little more. The whole idea of religion is to take faith which is natural and innate in all of us. We have faith in each other, faith that the sun will come up, faith that one day we will die, faith in finding love, faith in having children, faith in having happiness, faith in humanity, faith in god. None of this faith is bound it is just humanity. Faith is an act of humanity. Faith is instinctive within the human race. Our faith when allowed to be naturally human is the purest faith.

    Religion is the rules that bind faith. Religion is not faith. Religion is a control doctrine which inhibits our natural faith. It uses our faith in that which is greater and purer to sullen and dirty us all.

    That is religion.

  180. @amelia brown,

    “Just through interest how are they going to employ female members of the public to help them, and what will they expect these ladies to wear!?”

    I imagine the women religious police will look something like this from Iran

    Can you say Ninja!!!

  181. Radha that was my experience with Muslims in Thailand. They very differsent and seem more accepting of Buddhist etc. Well until recently…now they are killing Buddhist in the south. 😦

    My experience here is mixed I meet nice one and then i meet “reverts” it always seem those that are immigrants are nicer and more relaxed about their faith. Imo reverts give Muslims a bad image.

  182. Some said that the Muttawa is kind nowadays. Unlike before, they said, in the 80’s or 90’s, they will physically harm you if they think you have violated something.

  183. IM PROUD TO BE A MUSLIM

  184. MUTTAWA IS HARMLESS THEY ARE JUST TRYING TO CORRECT THE BAD THINGS…..IF U WILL FOLOW THE RULES THEY WILL NOT HARM YOU.. BUT IF U DID SOMETHING BAD OFCOURES THEY WILL TEACH IN A RIGTH WAY AND GIVES SOME LESSONS FOR US TO KNOW…

  185. AS A FOREIGNER I HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND REGULATION OF SAUDI ARABIA AND RESPECT IT….WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF THIS..BCOZ WERE NOT IN OUR COUNTRY..AND REMEMBER IGNORANCE OF LAW EXCUSES NO ONCE.

    Writing in capitals is like screaming, it is not allowed on this forum. If you do it again you will be put in moderation.
    The Moderator

  186. Radha…

    My husband’s experience with muslims in India was the same as yours…it flowed both ways. It seems as if it is changing though.

    Onigiri…

    that makes me sad about Thailand. The Saudi version of islam that is spreading or at least the “islamic awakiening” seems to be a bit of a problem. I say if you want to become closer to your faith…have at it. But it seems that for islam it goes hand in hand with alienating people and becoming less tolerant.

  187. @bigstick

    “Religion is the rules that bind faith. Religion is not faith. Religion is a control doctrine which inhibits our natural faith. It uses our faith in that which is greater and purer to sullen and dirty us all.

    That is religion.”

    That’s brilliant.

  188. @JC

    Thanks, sometimes I surprise myself. This is what religion is to me though. I look at all the hatred, division, bigotry, murder, apartheid, th list goes that religion causes and you will never convince me that God would have anything to do with it. In fact, the only way humans would have anything to do with it voluntarily is through childhood indoctrination and brainwashing. To actually read the spew and say this is what faith is sickens me.

  189. This is not true I’m in Saudi Arabia and this a lie
    I was hate Saudi Arabia but Since I lived in her I found’t wonderful

  190. mem,

    Care to elaborate?

  191. mem, yes explain, what is so wonderful?

  192. @James, I had to turn down my hearing aid to read your comment.

  193. @James

    Why are you proud to be a muslim? Could you not shout when you make your statement? He does a hearing aid good.

  194. Should read. It does a hearing aid good.

  195. why saudi let their daughter getting married on their younger age..why thier parents allow saudi men to buy them ..just for the sake of their lust……i know its their tradition but its immorality……no freedom of choice…..

  196. Normally, people like James would be right down my alley – but why bother?

    On the other hand, it must be nice to have upright, righteous, grade-A, sanctified, holy people like the Mutts just to correct our constant moral failings. I mean, if those “best of people” Muslims make mistakes, imagine us vile, evil infidels sinners. I had a margarida yesterday, but darn it there was no Mutt to knock it out of my hand and lecture me on my sins. So I had another one.

  197. Jay…the song “bartender” or “rehab” comes to mind with your comment. If you don’t know the song…do yourself a favor and youtube it…quite funny.

  198. which is which iran police woman and iran civilian woman …….all of them wearing their abaya….

  199. :o( I believe it’s all about self-insecureness.

    Example: if one is allowed to practice all the above-mentioned, then everyone will follows.

    Where would this leave the so-call PERSON holding the authority to control/prevent all this???

  200. i am a saudi woman and i fully support it .. I think its not of ur buisness to stick ur nose in everything we do and try to solve your own problems instead of critcizing our government , this should be done in all countries in all over the world to stop the harrasment and raping ,, but i think u’re all ok of whats hapening to the poor women living in such communities that you came from , so just BACK OFF

  201. People should learn how to NOT rape. A woman regardless of her clothes or what she is wearing will always be an invitation to any sick man.

  202. Surah 30. Ar-Rum. 7. “They know only the outside appearance of the life of the world (i.e. the matters of their livelihood, like irrigating or sowing or reaping, etc.), and they are heedless of the Hereafter. 8. “Do they not think deeply (in their ownselves) about themselves (how Allah created them from nothing, and similarly will resurrect them)? Allah has created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, except with truth and for an appointed term. And indeed many of mankind deny the Meeting with their Lord.”

    You might as well all know this, so that when you meet your Lord disbelieving in him you will have no excuse.

  203. Manal Al-Qahtani…

    ” I think its not of ur buisness to stick ur nose in everything we do and try to solve your own problems instead of critcizing our government ”

    I guess I can assume by this statement tht you have NEVER said anything critical about the West, right? Ooops…my bad just in the statement you made you criticized the West and showed your contempt. Wouldn’t you agree that is just a tiny bit hypocritical on your part? You can say how terrible we are but we can’t say it about your society? If you want to dish out the criticism then you gotta be able to take it.

  204. Isa…

    the funny thing about belief…it is just that…belief. If one does not believe then I guess one has nothing to fear. A strong believing christian could say the same thing about you. Since you don’t believe in Jesus you are not saved and therefore from that POV will not go to heaven. But gain…that is funny how faith works. For you it is wrong and for someone else it is right. Why don’t we let God decide? You worry about your soul and everyone else can worry about theirs.

  205. @Oby

    Well I doubt she frequents a western-centric blog with a Christian focus and commenting on it daily…

  206. @ Manal Al-Qahtani,

    You are so naive. Clothes don’t prevent rape or harassment. How you bring your society up to value women and humanity does. Teaching your son’s that they were born with a frontal lobe that is designed for reason and impulse control could be the first thought. Maybe if allowed to develop this section of their brains they would be productive and thoughtful humans. Instead they run on instinct no better than an animal.

    If you stick a women in a tent, men will lust after the tent and fantasize what could be under it. It could actually drive men more crazy to try to get it off. Thereby you have developed a society were men are raveneous dogs and the streets aren’t safe for women or children. Nice society. I don’t want it. It is insulting to men and women.

  207. JC…

    I’m sure she doesn’t. 🙂

  208. @Manal,
    This does not stop any harassment or raping. In fact, rape victims in Saudi are often re-victimized and blamed for their situation, and most women who have spent any time in other country’s can tell you that men in Saudi harass more than in any other place they’ve been. Accurate statistics on rape aren’t even compiled because people here often pretend it hasn’t happened rather than risk being doubly victimized.

    Everyone should speak out about what is wrong. In the west, women who are abused are protected by law. If something happens they have an opportunity to seek justice. If you are really a Saudi women, there is no way you don’t know at least one woman trapped in a bad marriage- or who has lost custody of her children for no reason or who is being prevented from pursuing normal goals and aspirations. There is no way you don’t know suffering women who get no help from the law or from the Mutawwa. Women who are genuinely at disadvantage because they cannot drive or afford a driver. So why come her and pretend it is fine? If your life is good don’t you want for your sisters what you have for yourself? No place is perfect. No nationality always behaves correctly. But in Saudi women have no help when things go wrong. You should stand up for the truth not pretend something is fine when it is not.

  209. @MoQ i’ll take ur translation of al fatiha, and it still supports that al fatiha NEVER curses christians or jews. my point is the same as what i stated before. everyone can have their opinion, but their opinion is NOT whats written in the Quran. my opinion is that, yeah, it references the errors of jews and christians but intentionally does not mention them by name, nor does it curse them at all. by making it a broad statement it also includes those other than christian and jews who have erred and also excludes those who have not erred from within the christians and jews. its a prayer for guidance pure and simple and does not invoke any negative wishes on christians and jews.

    the pride and belief in self importance that drizzles off some of you is very distasteful and immature. i hope that you will be able to grow as people. maybe you know more than me. maybe i know more than you. only Allah subhanu wa t’ala knows. i liked to read american bedu because there were some interesting topics and i believed her to be pretty fair handed. however, this blog has just become a meeting place for those filled with hatred and hypocrisy in their hearts that they have nothing better to do than make nasty remarks about Islam. its one thing to state ur opinion (which everyone is entitled) and another to actively seek out people of a particular faith and demonize them and their beliefs. i would say that they are pretty comparable to those islamic extremists that they criticize. all of the same qualities are present just in a different form. i am personally against all people like this.

    i hope this blog grows into something better than the forum of hate group against muslims.

  210. i perfectly and 100 votes agree on you Sandy , @ manal…. take a very verrry deep thinking ..!!! be true to your self .. do you really agree on what you have seen inthis country .!?? when you came from out of your country ,in the airport in riyadh you will know that you are in Saudi arabia , coz the Police are shouting Yalla ! Yalla on the people on line to the immegration they dont have right manner and right conduct , only here . only in saudi arabia ,! women are so jealouse on other woman when they saw its pretty with out cover , coz they know they cannot trust their men , its bcoz they are all hungry … hungry to see or seat with a woman so when they see them thier saliva is running yummmy.. huh.!

  211. One fact stands out. Whenever one makes a genuine and valid criticism on Islam it immediately is being dismissed with ”hate”. Anything approaching rational thought and skepticism is ”hate”.

    the only reason for this can be that they know their religion is immoral or wrong and they can’t defend it, so they start yelling ”Hate!”
    Weakness.
    oops! That was critical, I am afraid mnm11 will translate this with ”hate” again…

  212. @mn11,

    So let me get this, you come on a web site, make all kinds of claims based on ignorance of facts. When we correct you, somehow we turn into arrogant hatred. Why don’t you try something new like know your facts before arguing.

    Get an education on your own religion and you may discover all the problems others see in it.

  213. @ Cherry

    So tell me why did you chose your blog name?

    If Saudi has those wild besties roaming the airports slobbering over everything can’t they find a cage or two to put them in. Wild animals shouldn’t be allowed out amongst civilized people.

  214. […] is a heated discussion in the recent post of American Bedu about the apparent memo from Lebanese Embassy to warn its citizen in the Kingdom of Saudi […]

  215. better place for those who wants to go in heaven!!!
    MashAllah!!!!

  216. i love islam. alhamdullilah
    women are not oppressed. we are taken care like we take care of an expensive jewel. protected
    islam allows a men to marry four under certain circumstances make it legal as u can see in the west divorce rates are a norm nearly 80% of marriages ends in divorce and nearly all marriages have been tested with affairs at least once.so what is wrong with islamic law that allows the inevitable??
    kaaba is just the direction we muslims face to unite us, we pray to Allah never for the Kaaba nor the Hajar Aswad!
    If u want to be ignorant and blame Islam for all the problems in the world u will..there is always to sides of the coin.
    lastly, anyone who is not happy about the new ruling kindly move n live in a country tht makes u all happy.i’m sure KSA wont mind losing u 🙂

  217. No Source = no truth. Don’t blindly believe what you read, people !

  218. Kay, have you ever read a paper in Saudi Arabia? Women are treated like slaves, traded like cattle, and their human rights are non-existent. That is not really ”protection”. The Muttawa’s are just one of the sickly excrescences of this totalitarian female unfriendly messed up state.
    Where divorce rates are as high as everywhere else.

    Like Djoh says, don’t blindly believe the propaganda you’ve been fed. And if you love Islam why not show your with as a human being and protest against child marriage/rape in Saudi Arabia, and the ridiculous rule that women can’t drive, and can’t work, etc etc.
    Do your part, do something which will gain admiration for Islam instead of derision .

  219. @Kay,
    In Saudi Arabia women are only protected and guarded like jewels if their guardian wants too. If he wants to treat them badly he can. Besides many women don’t want to be treated like a jewel because they are living, breathing, human beings, and are NOT jewels.

    Saudi Arabia is a tribal/patriarchal society- but views like yours support the fiction that it is somehow Islamic. And that it is ok to oppress women in Islam. Please give a better impression of Islam.

  220. hmmm lets see.. how do i treat my expensive jewels… sure i keep it carefully,protected I also
    Kepp it polished, hidden away in a vault/locker/what not. Never allowed to be anywhere ever when not on my person.

    Displayed at a few weddings 🙂 ,polished and put right back into the dark .
    Oh an di do treat my diamonds and gold as safety .. to be sold incase I’m in dire trouble….

    Why on god’s green earth would a human being want to be treated like this. Why can’t we wish to be treated with respect, consideration,care and free to do what makes us happy…

    people we live once – don’t waste this chance to be happy,productive and be the best you can be.
    and don’t give me the dunya dn afterlife lecture.. I’m sick of hearing about it…suffer on earth to gain paradise, it’s all a test blah blah blah..

    Is there something stopping you from being happy on earth and going to paradise?? no ?

  221. Divorce has held at a steady 50% since stats were kept. That is universal…stats in Saudi are not reliable so no idea what they are…but considering a man can divorce his wife on a whim…through a text..in his sleep etc…one has to wonder if the stats are higher. Or…since he can marry more than one…he doesnt even have to divorce her but keep her in limbo…not married but not divorced. There are laws against that in america (and elsewhere I would assume) but in Saudi…your divorce…or marriage is in the hands of your owner/husband.

    Kay…you are right on time. As soon as the blog starts to get boring and everyone on the same page more or less…a new face shows up to throw a spanner in the works. thanks Kay…once again a woman has come forth to proudly proclaim that being oppressed and excluded from an average existence that men enjoy is really love and protection. You be the jewel, Kay, if that is all you ever hope to be in your life…but let other women decide whether they want to be the owner of the thing owned..or just the owned thing.

  222. While stats in Saudi may not be reliable, there are stats available. The divorce rate among Arabs and other Muslims is extremely high and for Saudis the divorce rate is the second highest in the world.

    Saudi Woman, who as a woman of great privilege seems to love being protected and treated like a “jewel,” has written about divorce and how difficult it is for women to get one vs. a man:

    Divorce in Saudi Arabia http://saudiwoman.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/#comment-10606

    She states: “…what I write is true. Besides the outside world when left to their imagination sometimes percieve things that are far worse than our reality.”

    Perhaps for those Saudi women who are treated like precious “jewels” who get taken out of the box and get to travel the world, but for others life seems to be a never ending reality prison.

    Below are a few links regarding divorce in ksa and a bit of the rest of the Arab, Muslim world.

    QUOTE = The number of divorces is increasing in the Kingdom, with nearly 62 percent of marriages ending in divorce. = http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article300603.ece

    Given the enormous rise in the divorce rate in the Kingdom is the second-highest in the world the head of Jeddahís marriage court, Sheikh Saleh Ahmad Habad, has called for urgent steps to address the issue.

    The court registers 40 marriages and 20 divorces a day….

    …A study conducted by Dr. Ebtisam Halawani at King Abdul Aziz University revealed that the main reason most women left their spouses was ill-treatment and violence. Most divorces occur during the first three years of marriage, the study said.

    Polygamy, according to Abdullah Al-Fawzan, a professor and sociologist at King Saud University in Riyadh, is responsible for up to 55 percent of divorces. He added that the loss of trust, sincerity, compassion and cooperation were also factors in the failure of marriages.

    The involvement of husbands in illicit relationships is a factor according to 38 percent of divorcees. Since few couples can get to know each other before getting married, the incompatibility and misunderstanding that can arise as a result often lead to separation, Professor Fawzan added…. http://www.artarabia.com/artman/publish/article_149.shtml

    Man divorces wife by SMS http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/man-divorces-wife-by-sms-2010-12-25-1.333715

    Tajiks blame Saudis for spread of SMS divorce

    http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/tajiks-blame-saudis-for-spread-of-sms-divorce-2011-05-01-1.387422

    Man divorces wife through loudspeaker

    http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/man-divorces-wife-through-loudspeaker-2010-10-11-1.302453

    Emirati divorce rate is highest in GCC

    At about 40% according to a study by the UAE Womens Federation:

    http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/emirati-divorce-rate-is-highest-in-gcc-2010-11-04-1.313238

    Saudi has 66 divorces a day

    “An average 66 divorce cases are recorded daily in Saudi Arabia and this is a very serious indicator that threatens the local society,” said Iftikhar Dahneem, a well social expert in the Gulf Kingdom.

    Quoted by Sharq newspaper, she said the main causes of the high divorce rate include the wrong choice of the spouse, the educational gap, differences in habits and poor understanding of marital duties… http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/saudi-has-66-divorces-a-day-2010-12-26-1.334141

    Kuwait reports surge in divorce

    …Nearly a third of the marriages among the Kuwaitis ended up in divorce…

    http://www.emirates247.com/2.258/region/kuwait-reports-surge-in-divorce-2010-07-08-1.264292

    Saudi had one divorce every 30 minutes in 2010 http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/saudi-had-one-divorce-every-30-minutes-in-2010-2011-03-21-1.370907

    Painless divorce better than painful whipping http://arabnews.com/lifestyle/offbeat/article451181.ece?comments=all

    About Dh800m spent on divorces in UAE every year

    Annual divorce rate in Dubai increased to 21% last year with 3,012 lawsuits filed… http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/about-dh800m-spent-on-divorces-in-uae-every-year-2011-04-24-1.384506

    ___

    It looks as if the facts tell a different story about Muslims and their perfect way of love, marriage and divorce.

    If Saudi women could drive, vote and work there might be many more divorces.
    
 

  223. 
Manal Al-Qahtani, said:
    i am a saudi woman and i fully support it .. I think its not of ur buisness to stick ur nose in everything we do and try to solve your own problems instead of critcizing our government , this should be done in all countries in all over the world to stop the harrasment and raping ,, but i think u’re all ok of whats hapening to the poor women living in such communities that you came from , so just BACK OFF

    I am a Western woman and I fully support equality among the sexes and the same laws for all people, instead of special dispensation for Muslims. It would be a very good thing if Saudis and other Muslims solved their own problems. Unfortunately, they are more into blaming others including other Muslims. Saudis whine, if it were not for the expats their lives would be perfect. Pakistanis blame the Indians, the Afghans and the West for all of their. The Afghans blame the Pakistanis. The Iraqis blame the Iranians. The Iranians blame the Arabs and everyone else. The whole of the umma blames the Zionist entity and the West. Round and round it goes while they murder each other and claim someone else is responsible.

    Regarding harassment of women. I have been harassed exponentially more by Muslim men, especially Arabs, Turks and Pakistanis than I ever have by Western men or any other ethnicity. I have travelled all over the world, often alone and the only place there is a terrible harassment problem is among Muslims. Most Western and Asian men are gentlemen who treat women well and with respect, while many, if not most, Muslim men are out of control lechers who will not control themselves and thus, must imprison women to protect them from other Muslim men. The violence against women and children in the Islamic world is staggering.

    No one will BACK OFF as long as Muslims continue to LIE about how things are for their people, especially their women. And—as long as Muslims like you continue to tell even bigger lies about how life is in the infidel world.

    The divorce rate in the West is around 50% and falling, not 80%. Saudi has the second highest divorce rate in the world. So, stop pretending that it does not happen. Most divorces in the Muslim world are filed because of violence by men against their women, as another post I made above clearly shows. Not a day goes by that Arab News and all the other Gulf papers do not print terrible atrocities against Muslim women and children.

    In “democratic” Turkey the Number of Women Murders Increased by 1400 Percent

    The number of women murders in Turkey increased by 1,400 percent within seven years. As far as divorce cases are concerned, 85 percent of all applications in Istanbul are related to violence… http://bianet.org/english/gender/132753-number-of-women-murders-increased-by-1400-percent

    Most people could not care less how Muslims treat their women or live their lives. However, it is absolutely everyone’s business when Saudis and other Muslims come to the free world and try to force their backward, 7th century way of life on the rest of us. It is estimated that 80% of Western mosques are controlled by Saudis. Never doubt that every man woman and child in all the world would do anything to keep their freedom.

    It is high time for Muslims to win hearts and minds and not the other way around.

  224. @ Prosciutto: Right, but you might to look at who is signing a sizable amount of America’s checks.

    I find it odd, American Bedu, that you claim to have such a fondness for Saudis/Muslims, yet a majority of comments on each of your posts is of people mocking and belittling the Muslim faith and Saudi culture. I was under the impression your blog was to perhaps show a nicer side to what Westerners otherwise think, but judging by how you allow such negative comments and arguments to take place, it seems it’s only here to mock. Was your husband not Saudi? I understand criticizing issues within Saudi Arabia, but to let people constantly attack the Muslim faith and say Muhammed (saw) was a “barbarian” or a ruthless murderer, etc etc…. Where is the fine line of respect, especially since you were married to a Saudi, respectively. I do not know whether he was Muslim or not, but I see you have written things on your blog in favorable ways towards Muslims, so why allow this same group of people to sweep in on your posts and just completely turn things sour? It is a bit ironic considering the premises & concept of this blog.

  225. Amal, I must admit that I also found it strange that Carol (American Bedu) should be so tolerant of all views, including anti-Muslim. As you know, Muslims and the politically correct are not very supportive of any criticism of Islam. In fact, there are very few blogs that have an open liberal policy towards all view points. Carol has never, to my knowledge, censored a comment if made factually and/or sincerely. This is to her credit. I have no doubt as to Carols love for her husband and for his people, so much that she cares enough to be honest about important issues.

    Certainly things are said here that may offend some, but the issue is really IF those things are true, not if they offend some people. Take your example, for example. If some people say that Mohammad was “a barbarian” the only issue is if this is true or not (assuming we understand that barbarian = bad). If it is true, then not talking about it changes nothing. If not true then a logical response is to ask for proof.

    Yesterday dozens of men, women and children were murdered in a bombing. Muslims all. Who did this? Probably Muslims. Ask why? Think, Amal. Why do Muslims do this? It me it is just Quran 9:111 in action. Can you explain this propensity for hate and violence that seems to follow Muslims like a shadow on a hot cloudless day? Does your quest for ‘respect’ mean that we should ignore facts and consider the pain and suffering of others to be inconsequential?

    If Muslims don’t ask the hard questions, nothing will change. Non-Muslims will suffer but Muslims will suffer more. Respect is good, but it must stand on truth and facts, not feelings.

  226. There is a difference in being tolerant of different views, Jay, and being tolerant of hate. If you don’t agree with Islam, that is fine, but to say such things as I have seen written in the comments here, like he [Muhammed -saw] is a barbarian, a rapist… Things like that are hateful. Yes, it may be some of your views, but there is something called tact and respect for others beliefs. Especially when you are frequenting a blog that is supposed to be giving out a more positive side of Saudi people/Muslims. Why choose to unload your hate of Islam here? Or better yet, why let it happen time and time again on your posts, when like I said the basis of this blog is supposed to be -more or less- positive (or at least respectful)?

    I have seen a poster on here trying to argue against such things said, and it doesn’t seem to work. People still go on to stick to their opinion and say they’ve “read the Qur’an and hadith” and know what they’re talking about.

    I’m not on a “quest for acceptance”. My faith is for myself, I don’t need anyone’s permission. I can’t tell you why others are violent… Maybe it’s their culture. Maybe it’s because they’re uneducated. Maybe they’re ignorant. But I don’t believe my holy book condones any senseless violence. That is my opinion, and that is why I am Muslim. I’m not asking you to agree, and I shouldn’t have to justify my beliefs to you or anyone else.

    And what about verse 9:111? It is talking about people who are martyred. That has nothing to do with being a complete idiot and bombing a place full of innocent people.

  227. @Amal..”I find it odd, American Bedu, that you claim to have such a fondness for Saudis/Muslims, yet a majority of comments on each of your posts is of people mocking and belittling the Muslim faith and Saudi culture. ”
    Amal..she was CIA agent ..say no more
    but yeah i totally agree with u on ure entire post…finally someone is seeing it and not just me.

  228. @Amal – ‘But I don’t believe my holy book condones any senseless violence’

    Too bad that statement had to have the word ‘senseless’. Who gets to determine what is ‘senseless’? One person’s ‘senseless’ may be another person’s ‘sharia’, eh?

  229. @Amal

    Another fine example to illustrate my point to the mentality in Saudi Arabia, you can not change what people are comfortable with.

  230. @Amal – ‘Yes, it may be some of your views, but there is something called tact and respect for others beliefs. Especially when you are frequenting a blog that is supposed to be giving out a more positive side of Saudi people/Muslims’

    1. Who said that this blog was ‘supposed’ to be giving out a ‘more positive’ side? Truth is what it is, when there is something positve it is shown when the reality is not positive then that also shows.

    2. re; tact and respect for other’s beliefs. NO we don’t have to respect other’s beliefs, we only have to respect their RIGHT to have the belief. HUGE difference.

  231. Bella and Amal… Carol was an American diplomat serving around the world including Pakistan. She worked for the State Dept not the CIA. Do not spread false info it makes you look stupid especially when many here have been reading this blog since inception. As to insulting Islam Muslims should know that the West values human right which include freedom of speech. That means a person may say what they want to without repercussions from the State. I find AB refreshing in that she does not censor comments. Like any adult if you find something insulting then either do not read it or say something. But perhaps if you keep an open mind you might learn something. There are reasons people hold views like Muhammad being a barbarian or a rapist and it not because that person is ignorant. Do some research on your religion. When a man marries. 6 yo and then consummated that marriage when the girl is 9 that
    tat is considered rape. When a man orders the death in inhumane ways and allows his followers to rape and pillage I consider that a barbarian. What’s sad is that you don’t. Prophets are not God and are not perfect now do they deem idolization.

  232. I, too, like that Carol allows people to speak freely. My religion is also insulted quite often, but I cringe and move on. I figure the way people have messed up Jesus’ teachings, Christians and Christian history deserve to be trounced. Much of our behavior has been and at times still is shameful and insulting.

    I think onigirifb and Jay make good points of why people think of Muhammad the way that they do. It’s our opinions based on what we know of him and, yes, maybe things we focus on that Muslims do not. Some people are going to look at one person one way and another is going to see that same person in a much different way. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some see Muhammad as a beautiful example for all humanity for all times. Some see him as anything but. And some see his good and bad sides and realize he is a mere man who had good traits and sinful ones just like the rest of us.

    But since his followers gave him prophet status and believe we should all follow his example, of course, he will undergo more scrutiny than the average guy on the street.

    The same with Jesus, the Buddha, Joseph Smith and other spiritual leaders.

  233. Bella-Vita**: Amal..she was CIA agent ..say no more

    So what? Carol was serving her country. What is your problem with that???

  234. Bella-vita, Such a cheap comment. But you prove my point: you are such a brilliant example of how religion, or at least Islam, does not elevate people but rather makes them more prone to become nasty and judgmental. As well as using cheap comments and cop-outs.
    Thank you for supporting.

  235. Suzanne, I have some doubts about Jesus and the Buddha, (Joseph Smith is so blatantly a charlatan he doesn’t deserve discussion) but at least none of these blokes went off raiding, looting, enslaving and raping, as the revered writings of Islam itself testify Mohammed did. It is a bit difficult how anybody but a sociopath could really consider such a person to be a great example.

  236. Amal, said:

    @ Prosciutto: Right, but you might to look at who is signing a sizable amount of America’s checks.

    I do not understand what you mean by the above. I said it is time for Muslims to win hearts and minds. I posted info about divorce and violence against women in the Arab/Muslim world—which you, predictably ignored. What does such behavior have to do with the U. S. or who is signing America’s checks? You think that the Chinese are behind Muslim on Muslim violence because they loan money to the U.S. or maybe you feel that the Saudis are giving their oil away instead of selling it so that they can feed their people and buy Western luxury goods?

    What if the West cut off the Muslim world from all exports that sustain life? How long do you think that Arabs could survive? Can Saudis eat and drink their oil?

    Amal, said:

    There is a difference in being tolerant of different views, Jay, and being tolerant of hate. If you don’t agree with Islam, that is fine, but to say such things as I have seen written in the comments here, like he [Muhammed -saw] is a barbarian, a rapist…

    The issue is one of truth or do you not believe what is written in the Qur’an? The Qur’an chronicles the early wars of Islam. Muhammad was a warrior who personally slaughtered infidels in many battles in order to further Islam. He took the wives of his enemies as slaves and raped them after having the husbands executed. Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and consummated that marriage when she was 9 years old. Now, in any culture, modern or not, it is not considered proper to have sex with a pre-pubescent child who is still playing with dolls. The name for such a man in modern terms is pedophile.

    Would you want your 6 year old daughter to be married to a man in his fifties? How about letting her have sex at the age of nine?

    In the modern world a man who does what Muhammad did would be considered a mass murderer and a criminal. He would be brought up on charges in the Hague.

    Why should anyone show respect for such crimes? Claiming that Muhammad is the perfect man and that all Muslims should follow his example is shocking. The world would be even more violent than it is today if all Muslims did that.

    Amal says: “I shouldn’t have to justify my beliefs to you or anyone else.

    Certainly, you absolutely have to justify your beliefs when these include the subjugation of half of the human race, its women; when these include making war on non-believers and forcing them to accept Islam and treating those who will not accept Islam as second class citizens. That, and much more, is what is says in the Qur’an and is exactly what the Islamic terrorists use to justify their murderous violence. The Saudis are funding the spreading of Islam to the tune of billions of dollars.

    Evidently you and other Muslims, especially the Arabs believe that is necessary or you would not have so many PR campaigns. The problem is that the more others learn about Islam, the more they reject it.

    No other founder of any major religion quite comes close to the barbaric behavior of Muhammad. Jesus did not lead armies to force his faith upon others. Buddha was non violent.

    The ignorance and uneducated are the Muslims who do not know the violent history of their religion and its political ideology, most do not even know what is written in the Qur’an because the majority of Muslims in the world are illiterate.

    You would do well to read the Qur’an and the history of Islam and then try to defend it, Amal.

    Many nonMuslims have done just that, studied Islam. They speak against the ideology because they know more about it than most Muslims.

    It is tiresome to see Muslims around the world demonstrating and holding up signs that say: “Slaughter those who insult Islam!” If nonMuslims did the reverse and held up signs that said: “Slaughter those who insult Democracy or women or freedom or freedom of speech, etc!” There would be blood running in the streets as Muslims rioted.

    For hatred, you need to look inward. There is plenty written in the Qur’an about how your allah hates everything that is not Islamic, like non-believers and Muslims should also hate everything that does not follow Islamic rules.

    There is a famous Japanese sculpture of three wise monkeys. Mizaru has his hands over the eyes, Kikazaru covers his ears and Iwazaru covers his mouth—to see hear and speak no evil. There is a fourth monkey, Shizaru who covers the principle of “do no evil.”

    Images of the wise monkeys: http://tinyurl.com/79mhv2o

    In the West these principles are seen as those who deal with evil by looking the other way like Muslims who refuse to see, hear, speak or do anything about the reality of Islam. Instead, Muslims are always ready to blame others for their own failings. Why do Muslims have respect for the evil that is done in the name of their religion as is commanded in the Qur’an? Why should anyone respect such murderous evil?

    Where are the hundreds of millions of Muslims marching against the daily Islamic terror that victimizes Muslims? Or perhaps you can tell us why Muslims are ignoring the carnage?

  237. Amal,

    Hate? You say hate? Obviously you have not read the Quran and hadith, or if you have, you ignore every fifth word. Are you aware that non-Muslims are “lower than animals” in the sight of Allah? Are you aware that infidels do nothing but scheme to make problems for true blue believers in Allah and Mohammad? So if Muslims are the “best of peoples” (also in the Quran) than what are infidels?

    There are hundreds of verses in the Quran that denigrate and slander non-Muslims. Imams routinely curse unbelievers in sermons and Islamic websites are filled with vile things about us. If that were not enough, Muslims must blame everything on non-Muslims, in case you haven’t noticed.

    What I am saying is that Islam is all about hate. Muslims and people like you need to clean your hears and minds first, then you can talk to us about our problems.

    The ‘hate’ speech is just about silencing critics of Islam and Muslims because they prefer not to hear the truth about their religion, their own actions and their dear prophet. Why don’t you tackle Islamic ‘hate‘ first? As I said before, if it is true, it is not hate.

    PS: There is not even a single word in the Bible that slanders Muslims and Islam!!!!! Ha!

  238. Now some entertainment

    Get ready, hold on to your seats….

    Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse….

    http://bikyamasr.com/50403/islamic-cleric-bans-women-from-touching-bananas-cucumbers-for-sexual-resemblance/#!wp-prettyPhoto%5Bg50403%5D/0/

    Quote: Answering another question about what to do if women in the family like these foods, the sheikh advised the interviewer to take the food and cut it for them in a hidden place so they cannot see it.

    Actually the guy has a point (!), Lorena Babbit started with bananas and carrots and look what happened. I think knives should also be banned. Who knows what passes in a woman’s head when she is chopping cucumbers!

    Link is from http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ , a blog primarily about classical literature and Korea (where I have a kid brother). I do have an intellectual side you know, and I can discuss medieval lit, ancient history and cartography with the best of them. Life is more than Islam and “horizontal studies” (as Red says).

  239. Amal:

    Name an Islamic country that isn’t having oppression, killings and subjegation in the name of their religion today. Name any place where muslim on muslim violence isn’t occurring because they believe differently with another sect or they are upholding family honor. Name a country where the use of this religion today is not causing death, destruction, oppression, and hatred. Name a country in 2011.

  240. @bigstick – UAE? Qatar?

  241. @ Bigstick: UAE/Qatar/Kuwait/Oman. You know, there are Syrian Christians or Egyptian Christians who are just as violent as you claim Muslims are. I personally saw a Coptic man go ballistic in the mall and start beating his daughter in front of everyone because she left the home without his permission. I would of Syrian Christians who would probably beat their daughter if she were to ever become Muslim or date a Muslim man. Shall I blame Christianity for this? Or should I look at the individuals/culture? Look at violence in India. They is a mass infanticide on female babies, because they are unwanted. Look at how the Chinese are treating Tibetans. There is violence all over the world, and it is not exclusive to a religion. Will you blame Hinduism for the extreme gender imbalance that in occurring in India now due to the killing of infant children or even bride burnings? Why are you not rallying against them as well? You are only seeing what you want to see, and only hearing what you want to hear.

  242. *I know of Syrian Christians

    *There is a mass infanticide

    sry, typos.

  243. American Bedu said: UAE? Qatar?

    Um, nope! Same problems exist:

    Qatar: Violence against Women, Human Trafficking, Torture & ill-Treatment
    Amnesty International Annual Report 2007 
This report documents human rights issues of concern
to Amnesty International during 2006
    At least 2,000 people continued to be deprived of their Qatari nationality. A woman who had been confined to her family home against her will since 2003 was allowed to leave the country. At least 21 prisoners were under sentence of death but no executions were reported … http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE22/002/2006/en/72673c29-d43b-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/mde220022006en.html

    How the UAE Condones Sexual Violence http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/06/29/how-uae-condones-sexual-violence

    Dubai’s Shameful Record on Rape

    For those of us who live in the Middle East, it is really not that clear what we should do if we’re sexually assaulted, abused, or raped. That is because in so many instances, officials either don’t take us seriously, or – as this case frighteningly illustrates – we may even be charged with a crime ourselves.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/01/29/dubais-shameful-record-rape

    If you think that you are safe if you are a tourist—forget about it!

    The common denominator in all of these countries is — Islam!

    Amal, while there is violence everywhere, few other people are oppressing their own citizens and especially their women in the name of religion.

    Why Muslims refuse to recognize what is blatantly obvious to the rest of the world is mystery.

  244. You are correct that violence is not exclusive to religion. However, a great deal of the violence, divisionism, segregation, hatred, bigotry, apartheid, murder is rooted in religion. If religion is the basis of such violence and it is what people draw on to justify such injustices. Then by all means blame it.

  245. @ Jay: I am not talking about in general, I am talking about this blog and how I found it odd. Go on and tell the world how much you hate Islam, whatever makes you happy. Also, I have not read anywhere in my Qur’an where it “calls non-Muslims lower than animals”. Also, animals are not “low”, they are creatures Allah created and should be respected. 🙂 Please provide this verse number for me that you are looking at. You can also stop using the word infidel as if you are trying to be condescending. I do not use that word, nor does anyone I know. Get real, please. Christians and Jews are to be respect as they believe in one God – just like Muslims. Anyone mentioned in the Qur’an as disbelievers is Pagans or Atheists who are full of pride and mock religion. Also, you should be aware many of the Surah’s in the Qur’an are in a narration. You can’t just take something out of the Qur’an and make it fit where it does not.

    Please do not tell me what I need to do with my religion to suit your liking. I do not owe you anything, nor do any of my other fellow Muslims. We are peaceful people. I see it everyday. Everyone where I live is full of hospitality and are wonderful, normal people. No one is plotting killings or bombings. Open your mind. American Bedu was in Saudi Arabia, she can attest to what I am saying. She married a Saudi man who she speaks very fondly of. If Muslims are so evil, why does she carry such a fondness for them or even Saudi Arabia? Think about that.

  246. Prosciutto, ROTFL at Slaughter those who insult Democracy or women or freedom of religion or freedom of speech, etc!
    I could just see it in front of me, a group of women with very large signs in front of the Islamic beardy blokes protesting!

  247. @ Bigstick: Then that is where you blame people’s ignorance, uneducation, and/or culture. Just because someone says they are Muslim does not mean they are practicing the right way or even practicing at all. Hypocrites are everywhere these days. People use religion for their own delusions and excuses, and try to twist things to suit their own desires. Welcome to Earth…

  248. Amal, we don’t hate Islam, we see it for what it is and are determined to make sure it does not gain power.
    You are obsessed with the word ”hate”. Dislike is not ”hate”.
    And besides the fact that Islam does not ”respect” any religion other than itself, not to mention not respecting different sects of their own religion, no religion is to be respected before it has earned respect. That is not ”hate” either, that is common sense.

    Bedu allows people to speak their mind and discuss in a polite and mature way. that is not ”hate” either.
    You really need to enlarge your vocabulary a little.

  249. Amal:

    Wow, earlier in one of my post I was told that religion was a delisional I was being disrespectful.

    Tell me Amal with all the passages of violence, the many interpretations, the many different meanings that people can come up with in these books. All supposely blessed by the divine, all with horrors and hatred laced throughout; can you be sure you are practicing being a proper muslim? Is it possible you are just cherry picking to suit your own personnal belief and others are right to say you are not practicing as it was meant to be?

  250. @ Prosciutto: It’s an unfortunate fact divorce is prevalent for everyone these days, Muslims included. What you and a lot of others fail to understand is just because someone is Muslim, does not mean they are practicing for some Sheikh who does everything according to the book. Muslims are humans too, you know. They get divorced for the same exact reasons any else does. What is your point? “Oh look, Muslims get divorced, what a religion!”?? As for domestic violence, should I highlight every domestic violence that occurs in America and broadcast it out to the world as if this what a majority of American women have to deal with? Because that is what’s happening to Muslims. Yes, there is domestic violence in the Middle East, but there is domestic violence ALL OVER the world and that is an unfortunate fact as well. Even without religion, an abuser is an abuser. They will always find something to justify their behavior.

    I am Muslim, and no man has ever laid a hand on me. I know many other women who’s husband’s have never laid a hand of them and they are happy as can be in their marriages (mashallah). Should I call the fire brigade?

    And if you cut the Arabs off, they would survive just as they have for thousands of years 🙂

    Again, you can stop using the term infidel to be condescending. Muhammed fought against his own tribe who wanted him dead. He did not go around just mercilessly killing anyone in his way. He fought against the Quraish. If you’re referring to the Jewish tribe, he had a treaty with them that they violated. Let’s not pretend the Jewish and Christians tribes of the time were loving and innocent. They were very hostile as well towards Muhammed because they did not believe him and were wary of aligning with him and causing problems between themselves and the Quraish who controlled that area of Arabia.

    Next, Aisha’s age CAN NOT be confirmed. Do you honestly think in a time of people who were slaughtering their infant daughters or basically passing them around like pieces of meat to each other would carefully write down her birth date? If you look at other hadiths, talking about her age around certain times it can be estimated more accurately she was around 12 or 14 at the time of her marriage to the Prophet. Again, that might be crazy to you, but this was over a thousand years ago. People only lived until like 35. Wasn’t it just 100 years ago some of our grandparents were married at 13 or in their teens? Should I tell them their grandparent is a pedophile?
    And your story of Safiyah is totally inaccurate.

    Lastly, no, I do *not* have to justify my beliefs to you. Sorry to burst your bubble. Again, I owe you nothing.

  251. @ Aafke: So just because I’ve used to the word “hate” a couple times, I am “obsessed” with it and need to expand my vocabulary? Hmm, ok. Whatever you say, I suppose.

    I don’t see calling someone’s prophet a pedophile or lunatic as “dislike”, Aafke. That is called hate. Get a dictionary. I dislike Hinduism, but if I sit here and say “Krishna was a pedophile murderer who raped people and was a barbarian”, that is CLEARLY over the line of dislike.

  252. American Bedu:

    I done some research on the two, they still have issues but by far they are a lot better than most. Still gender apartheid is alive and well. That said what I can tell they have few honor killings and murder over religion. They also are far less tolerate as a government over these activities and act upon them. Both have some extreme censorship on the media which tells me they can hide a great deal. In addition, they severely limit discussion on the religion or the government which means to me they have something to fear. Don’t get me wrong. It could be they are trying to keep the more radical hardliner teachings out but it could be the other way around. Overall, it looks as though they are livable compared to other Muslim countries they seem to be a far better place to live. Thank you.

    I checked the following websites:

    UAE:
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154475.htm
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=185
    http://opennet.net/research/profiles/uae

    Qatar:
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/nea/154471.htm
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=181
    http://opennet.net/research/profiles/uae

  253. Amal:

    Does Krishna have such a well documented accounting of his human violations?

  254. @ Lynn: “Who said that this blog was ‘supposed’ to be giving out a ‘more positive’ side? Truth is what it is, when there is something positve it is shown when the reality is not positive then that also shows.”

    Well when you promote your blog as a woman who has lived in Saudi Arabia and was married to a Saudi, while also claiming you have a fondness for Saudis/Muslims…. That kind of states the obvious right? It’s not really much a fondness if your blog is dedicated to mocking Islam or Saudis. Still, I believe disagreements can take place in a respectful manner, without resorting to such tasteless insults. At least out of respect for American Bedu’s late husband. I mean you’re basically insulting him as well when you say such things. Does American Bedu not mind?? :-/

  255. @ Bigstick: That is utterly irrelevant. I was making a point that such statements are hateful and are not just “dislike”.

  256. Amal:

    So human violations are irrelevant?

  257. @ Bigstick: What are you even talking about? You’re creating a false argument based off of a point I was trying to make. Is English your first language?

  258. Amal: “You know, there are Syrian Christians or Egyptian Christians who are just as violent as you claim Muslims are”.

    So what you are saying is “other religions kill, too”, so it is okay for muslims to kill also??

    Here Is The Muslim Game:

    Why pick on Islam if other religions have the same problems?
    Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists, like you, when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. They will say: Remember Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber? How about Anders Breivik, the Norwegian killer?

    And Here’s The Truth:

    Because they don’t.

    Regardless of what his birth certificate may or may not have said, Timothy McVeigh was not a religious man (in fact, he stated explicitly that he was agnostic and that “science” was his religion). At no time did he credit his deeds to religion, quote Bible verses, or claim that he killed for Jesus. His motives are very well documented through interviews and research. God is never mentioned.

    The so-called “members of other faiths” alluded to by Muslims are nearly always just nominal members who have no active involvement. They are neither inspired by, nor do they credit religion as Muslim terrorists do – and this is what makes it a very different matter.

    Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make. Muslims, like you, who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

    Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as Muslims enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There have been six deadly attacks over a 36 year period in the U.S. Eight people died. This is an average of one death every 4.5 years.

    By contrast, Islamic terrorists have staged nearly eighteen thousand deadly attacks in just the ten years following September 11th, 2001. If one goes back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmere and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.

    Anders Breviek, who murdered 76 innocents in a lone rampage on July 25th, 2011, was originally misidentified as a “Christian fundamentalist” by the police. In fact, the killings were later determined to be politically motivated. He also left behind a detailed 1500 page manifesto in which he stated that he is not religious, does not know if God exists, and he prefers a secular state to a theocracy. Needless to say, he does not quote any Bible verses in support of his killing spree, nor did he shout “praise the Lord” as he picked people off.

    In the last ten years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and tolerance for a radical clergy that supports the terror.

    Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to “misinterpretation” as is their “perfect” one. Sadly, the reality speaks of something far worse.

  259. @ Harry: “So what you are saying is “other religions kill, too”, so it is okay for muslims to kill also??”

    No, Harry, that is not what I was saying. I was making a point that non-Muslims are violent as well. Not that I am condoning it… I am simply pointing out that there is problems within the *culture*. Please do not twist my words.

  260. Amal:

    I know what you are saying. Do you? Apparently you cannot or will not answer the questions which naturally spring from your agrument.

  261. @Amal,

    You have to realize that telling the truth is not hate. It is simply telling the truth.

    The issue that you have is you are requiring respect for things that do not deserve respect. i.e.

    – Marrying a 9 year old does not deserve respect
    – Taking slaves does not deserve respect
    – Attacking tribes killing and looting in the process does not deserve respect
    – Text that promise people of going to eternal hell does not deserve respect.
    – etc.

    Actually those things deserve our contempt.

    It is silly of you to demand such respect for any ideology when it is not earned.

    If you think these charges are not factual, why don’t you debate your point and prove them wrong!!!

  262. @ Bigstick: Which question? That human violations are irrelevant?? I was referring to your argument being irrelevant as I was only trying to make a point that such talk (calling Muhammed such and such) is clearly over the “I dislike Islam” line. That’s all. So I really don’t understand what your question is about… No, I don’t think human violations are irrelevant.

  263. @Carol – Perhaps that could be due to the fact that they have a Constitution that is NOT Islamic?

    UAE : 1.Article 25 — All persons are equal before the law, without distinction between citizens of the Union in regard to race, nationality, religious belief or social status.

    Qatar : The Constitution upholds personal liberty; safeguards equal rights, duties and opportunities for all citizens; and protects private ownership. It protects the freedoms of expression, the press and religion, as well as the right to education.

    Sure, you might think things might be nice there now BUT when the Islamists start coming around and sqawking about ‘British Colonialism’ (isn’t it funny how the ‘Westerners’ always seem to have to intervene in order for them to become civilized? – i.e. Trucial States, Saudi Arabia) as being the cause of all these ridiculous and UN-Islamic practices the constitutions will be revoked and the women and non-Muslims will be put back in their places.

  264. @ MoQ: I am not demanding respect, once again. I initially commented on American Bedu’s content of her blog and the comments. I did not come on here with guns blazing over who needs to respect my religion or I’ll strike them down. If you do not feel these things deserve respect, up to you. I won’t loose any sleep over it.

  265. Amal:

    You haven’t answered this one, does Krishna have such a well documented accounting of his human violations?

  266. Bigstick:

    Well I am aware there is battles he fought in their holy text (I forget the same, sorry). But I still fail to see what you’re trying to get at? I was not accusing Krishna of being anything.

  267. “I did not come on here with guns blazing over who needs to respect my religion or I’ll strike them down.”

    You know you do not have that power LOL!!

    Anyway, You have used the term respect for everything starting with the prophet, faith, animals, and the tooth fairy (ok i made the last one up) about 10 times Now you are saying you did not ask for that. Make up your mind, otherwise you just sound confused…

  268. @Amal – ‘It’s not really much a fondness if your blog is dedicated to mocking Islam or Saudis.’

    You are the one that claims that is what this blog is dedicated to NOT the blog owner. I don’t think anyone other than Carol can say what this blog is dedicated to, eh? Also, Carol’s late husband, Abdullah, seemed like he was a great man, an educated, mature, respectable and wise man. I really don’t think that he would have been affected by what other people thought of his (AND his wife’s religion).

  269. Amal, even in your answer to me you could not refrain to use the word ”hate” again. You know, words have a certain influence. It is much better to try and use the word ”hate” less and use other words instead.

    Amal is right about the age of Aisha. Nobody really knows how old he was. She was very young, but if you take Islamic history into account, and Aisha’s age compared to the age of other people around her, it is impossible she was that young. She was young, and very young to be married to an old man in his forties, but she cannot have been 6.
    I worked this out at my blog once.

    Warning: long explanation:

    The several hadith concerning Aïscha’s age do not agree on her age, and the narrators even contradict themselves. So why give preference to the single one which gives a ridiculous young age for Aïcha at the time of her marriage?
    We can look at some historical events and compare them.

    pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation
    610 CE: First revelation
    610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam
    613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly.
    615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia
    616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam
    620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Aïcha to the Prophet
    622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina)
    623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

    Aïscha’s father was Abu Bakr. Based on one account of Al Tabari, Aïscha was 7 when betrothed to the prophet, in the year 620. So then she was born in 613. But Tabari also states that all four of AbuBakr’s children were born before the revelation. If that is so, she must have been at least 14 at the time of betrothal, and 17 or 18 when she went to live with him.

    Aíscha is reported by ibn Hisham to have converted before Omar ibn Kattib, in the first years of Islam around 610. To accept Islam, she must at least have been able to speak, say three years old, which would make her at least 15 in 622.

    Aïscha is reported to have been present at the battle of Badr and Uhud, but children under 15 were not allowed to participate, which indicates she must have been at least 15 years old, not 9.

    According to tradition Aïscha was born 8 years before hijrah. If Sura the moon was revealed 8 years before hijra, then Aïscha was a baby at that time if she lived with the prophet 9 years later at nine years old.
    But according to another narrative in Bukhari, Aïscha is reported to have said: “I was a young girl (jariyah)” when Surah Al-Qamar (the moon) was revealed. And she remembered verses then reveiled.
    – sibyah = infant
    -Jariyah = young playful girl
    If we take a ”young playful girl” to be something like 9-12 years old , she would have been 18 to 21 years old when she married Mohammed.

    Now from a lingualistical point of view: Aïscha was mentioned as a prospective bride for Mohammed as ”Bikr”.
    If Jariyah means ”playfull young girl” and ”Bikr” means, ”unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage” (aka virgin) than you could claim Aïscha was an adult woman at the moment of her marriage.

    If you compare Aïscha’s age to that of her contemporaries according to the different narratives, you come to the different ages also. Fatima was born at the time the Kaäba was rebuilt, she was five years older than Aïscha, that would make Aïscha 12 years old at the time of her marriage.
    If Asma, her older sister was 10 years older than Aïscha, and she died at a 100 years old, in 73 AH, she was 27, 28 at the time of Hijrah, making Aïscha 17 or 18 years old, and about 19, 20 when she came to live with the prophet.

    And also, years weren’t counted numerically like we do now. People would say something like: ”That happened in the year of …..”. The point is that the actual age of Aïscha, or anybody from that time for that matter, is not set. A few decades ago many people in the Middle East had no idea how old they exactly were.
    So why do people think they can know exactly how old Aischa was who lived so long ago?

  270. @ MoQ: Umm, ok??

    And I in case you don’t get it, let me spell it out for you in simple terms: I find it odd that American Bedu says she has a fondness for Saudis and Muslims, while also having married one and lived in the country, yet doesn’t mind people constantly mocking Islam and Saudis in the comments of a large amount of her posts. Does that make sense to you, MoQ, if you have a blog where you state you are “fond” of a certain culture but allow the same people to crap all over it in the comments? How does that make sense? Yes, I get the “freedom on speech” argument, that’s fine and dandy, but what I’m saying is it’s rather ironic considering the stance she claims to take.

  271. @ Aafke: “Amal, even in your answer to me you could not refrain to use the word ”hate” again. You know, words have a certain influence. It is much better to try and use the word ”hate” less and use other words instead.”

    Well, what would you like me to use? I see it as hate. I’m sorry you have such an aversion to that word. Maybe you can call Merriam-Webster with a complaint and have it taken out of the English language?

  272. Amal, then I am very sorry for you.

  273. Amal:

    You books (hadith) and a great deal of your scholar as well as Islamic schools contradict a great deal of your statements on Mohammed. So, tell me why should I believe you when so many other muslims say something far different and the hadith support it?

    In addition, history actually tells a different story on how women were treated during that timeframe and for the most part they had a great deal more rights. Amazing to me that Mohammed’s first wife was a weathy business woman, their were women leaders, and I believe it even mentions in a hadith about a tribe whose women were a degree above men. Some historians also tell a different story on Mohammed’s tribe, it is said he was the one who actually wasn’t tolerate, was demanding and was causing a great deal of problems for the tribe. Then you have all those hadith that show his intolerance towards others, you will excuse me I can’t understand how you can’t question the many accountings of his inhumanity, brutality, forgetfulness and then expect people to respect it?

    Curious, why do you dislike Hinduism?

    Remember Carol is an American and freedom of speech is paramount. No one hear hates people who follow the teachings of Islam. We just don’t like the teachings as we deem it to be anti-humanity.

  274. @Amal,

    – yes it makes sense that a blog owner let’s people discuss things freely. If Islam and Saudi are great then people like you should have an easy time defending against these unfounded attacks. The issue you have is that you cannot, because it is hard to defend the crazy ideology that rules the country and also is exported outside. You have an issue with commentators voicing their opinions. It seems Carol does not have that issue.

    – You also did not limit yourself to the argument of why Bedu does not edit her blog. You also added the Hate argument. Now you are acting like you have not done such thing in your summary.

    Again you are really sounding confused. Look back at your comments and see if you truly stuck to only the argument about Carol. My opinion is you did not and I think others agree that is why you are getting these responses…

  275. @ Lynn:

    On her About tab it says: “The American Bedu blog is not intended as Saudi-bashing.”

    Does it not? And yet what do I see in the comments….

  276. @ Aafke: You’re sorry for me because I think that berating someone is hateful? Well I don’t know what else you’d call it, dear. Do you think it’s loving?

  277. I don’t see ANY Saudi or Islam bashing on her Breast Cancer posts. Did you?

  278. Amal:

    She isn’t bashing. She is putting up nice topics and topics of concern. The bloggers are debating the points. You are bringing up points in which to debate and you are being debated. Muslims have every right to bring forth their points and debate them equally. You stand on the facts, history, current practices and the very books you use. The bloggers here stand on that as well. Maybe when you cannot not defend your stance except through censorship and finger pointing you might ask if the problem is not on this end but yours.

  279. @ Bigstick: Not much is known about Arabia pre-Islam. & Khadija was not a pagan. Women’s rights depended on the clan. Some were completely ruthless in how they handled women, such as killing female infants alive or selling their daughters/wives. Other’s were a bit better…Khadija came from a very privileged family.

    It doesn’t matter why I dislike Hinduism.

  280. Lynn:

    Well did you read the comments on here, and many other posts like it?

  281. @ Bigstick: That’s fine. But is there not a line when it turns from disagreement to just bashing?? Such as when you get to the point where you are calling people a pedophile, barbarian, etc. etc?

  282. @ MoQ: So it makes sense to contradict yourself by way of others? If you state your blog is not intended for Saudi bashing, yet allow comments that are bashing Saudis… That is not odd?

    And I am not acting like I said “no such thing”. I stick by what I said. There is a way to disagree with tact and make your point without resorting to hate speech.

  283. Amal:

    There is more known about pre-Islam and how women were treated than what many who following the teachings state. It is also know that many who following the teachings of Mohammed destroyed past cultures. That they had to do this in order to hid the truth. That if other cultural practices and faith were known the earlier muslims could not make there claims. So in order to change history, in order to re-write it to their liking, they destroy all that could to contradict and lie about the true history. Censorship should always be questioned.

  284. Amal:

    You were the one that brought up your dislike for Hinduism. I only asked the question that naturally spring forth from your statement. That is all.

  285. @ Bigstick: Well, I’m afraid I’m not educated enough on that subject to comment back, so I will refrain from doing so. I hope you will take that in respect.

    Take care

  286. @Amal – ‘Well did you read the comments on here, and many other posts like it?’

    Well, dear, that’s because the subject of this post was about something that is controversial.

    Sure some people think it is great to have moral police telling you how to live your life and clearly some DON’T think it’s so great. Read Carol’s ‘About’ page and maybe you will get a better understanding of her intentions.

    ‘You’re sorry for me because I think that berating someone is hateful?’

    Yet berating is EXACTLY what you yourself are doing. Berating people for expressing their educated opinions and berating your host for allowing that free expression. No? Hateful, hateful Amal. 😉

  287. Obviously, Amal is advocating strict “censorship”. Plain and simple. Then he is using Carol’s saudi/muslim husband as emotional blackmail to bolster her point.

    I can understand his pov since it is strictly against sharia law to question koran, mohammed, his companions. Amal, being a “very good” Muslim is only advocating what his religion advocates. For example, islamic websites invariably have this rule for commentators:

    “Posts that belittle Prophets, Companions of Prophet Mohammed (Sahaba Kiraam), Ka’bah, Makkah and Madinah are rejected. One must also use pbuh, sa, ra, etc. This applies to Muslims as well as non-Muslims”.

    Note that Allah is not included in the above category. I guess you can belittle Allah and get away with it :)- Mohammed over Allah every time!

  288. I found this to be an interesting bit of information.

    http://www.meforum.org/1813/the-middle-easts-tribal-dna

  289. Prosciutto,

    I did a real quick glance at the two and what I had found didn’t sound too bad when comparing them to other Muslim countries. Your information does shed further light. I did find that they both had excellent internet capability and each were exceptional censored. One such censorship was the discussion of Islam in any negative manner. So there is absolutely no discussion or it is extremely curtailed on the matter of flaws within the Koran, hadith or governance of it. In other words no bad mouthing anything about Islam or the ruling government.

    I also found this interesting on how Saudi is even destroying Islam’s historical sites. You would think that Muslims would be more upset about this type of destruction of their past heritage.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites

  290. @ Lynn: Where have I berated anyone and called them names or told them they’re a pedophile or barbarian? I have not been hateful. I’ve not gotten personal and insulted anyone or their beliefs. So, whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

  291. @ Harry: First off, I’m a female. Second, I am not advocating strict censorship LOL.

    I think you have issues, my friend. I am not here to tell anyone to never speak badly about Islam “or else”. Have at it. If you will see, my initial comment on this post was to American Bedu about her blog. I am saying I find it off she allows such comments on a blog that is not intended to bash Saudis or Muslims. Somehow that got turned into to a discussion on Islam with everyone else, but my original aim was to comment to AB on her blog. Your little ramble there is quite odd. You don’t know me, so please refrain from patronizing me as some cookie cutter type.

  292. they destroy historical sites because they are afraid Shia muslims might worship them. Besides, if they destroy all evidence of the past they can make up their own version of the past. they would love to destroy Maida ‘in Saleh which after Petra is the most important historical site of the Nabateans. The Nabateans had a very sophisticated culture and vast territory, They traded as far as the read sea and the south of Saudi Arabia.. And those ruins are still here, a not to be denied archeological proof that there were indeed cultures of great sophistication in Saudi Arabia before Mohammed came around.
    There were churches, there were Christians, there were many Jews, there was international trade, actually there was a lot of civilization going on. Including writing.
    But the Wahhabbis would love to destroy the proof of Nabatean culture so they can lie about the past.
    By the way, the Nabateans already worshipped Al Uzza, who is one of the Goddesses worshiped in Mecca, when the kaaba was still cared for by priestesses, which is another proof women could gain great status in pre-Islamic Saudi Arabia..

    And the Nabateans were literate, and they wrote in Syro Aramaic out of which they developed their own writing. They got more and more influenced by the Arabic language and Arabic writing itself developed from variants of the cursive form of their writing.

  293. Amal

    Isn’t that the point to this whole exercise? To take it personally, re-evaluate your opinion, your thought process, your belief, your understanding, and expand your knowledge of that around you. Isn’t it about understanding one another by the use of words and those words sometimes stings one’s sensitbility because that might be how one gets their point across. It might allow another to understand a different perspective. Isn’t that what this is all about?

    Finally, If you didn’t want to debate, then why did you engage and still do you engage the bloggers? You could simply ignore us, so why don’t you? Unless you are looking for something or wanting to get into a debate. Only you know?

  294. well, I’m puzzled…I had responded to Amal but it seems my comment went somewhere into the blogosphere. I’ll try to reconstruct as best as I can remember my words from earlier today…

    Yes; I worked for the CIA until I married my (late) Saudi husband. I was proud to serve my country. However, as all who do know me will attest to, what you see is what you get. No hidden agendas.

    I believe that both positive and negative comments are important towards understanding opposing points of view. Without such insights on why someone may view a topic one way and someone else another, little progress will be gained towards building bridges of understanding. The head must not remained buried in the sand and we can not allow sensibilities to be offended when viewpoints are presented that are not agreeable to all.

    My (late) husband always supported me with my blog. He helped suggest topics, provide information, allowed me to interview him on issues. He also understood the importance of hearing all perspectives. For those who may not have followed the blog since its inception (2006), he was Director of Islamic Affairs at the Saudi Embassy in Washington for 4 years. He helped me be less shy or timid in addressing subjects that may be difficult or considered sensitive, yet there was never any doubt on his love and dedication to his faith and to his country.

    Now let’s please end finger pointing. If anyone wants to debate issues NOT pertaining to the subject of the post, then go to the debate page and debate to your heart content.

  295. Prosciutto,

    I have heard Saudi Arabia is the consumer capital of the world. Shop until you drop because there isn’t much else to do particular for women.

  296. Amal you are too weird yourself. You lack any basic of logical thought. I will spell it out for you.

    1) I am not here to tell anyone to never speak badly about Islam “or else”.
    Clear enough, but the next sentence you do want Bedu to curtail anybody who is critical towards Islam.

    2) I find it off she allows such comments on a blog that is not intended to bash Saudis or Muslims.
    Here you make the common mistake of believers that any comment which is critical about some writings of Islam, or the cultures based on Islam, or points out some nasty facts about Saudi Arabia is hating and ”bashing”.

    But I know why you do this, because your problem is, as Moq mentioned in an earlier comment: If Islam and Saudi are great then people like you should have an easy time defending against these unfounded attacks.
    But you can’t, can you? Islam and Saudi aren’t so great really. So you take refuge in bashing everybody who’s comments you cannot refute.

  297. I read the link Bigstick provided. It seems sometimes to this day tribalism comes before Islam. And Procuitto’s comment, “Islam permeates every single moment of a Muslim’s life.” I wonder, has there ever been a study of Muslims from tribal societies vs. Muslims from non-tribal societies, and what are the differences in their understanding and practice of their faith?

  298. @ Prosciutto: What a rant. Do you feel better now?

    With all the millions of Muslims in the world, suddenly you know how each and every one of them feels? I have not come across one person where I live, and I live in the Middle East, who “blames the Jews for everything”. I have not come across anyone with such arrogance as if they are God’s gift to Earth because they are Muslim. And I have NEVER heard anyone here use the word infidel LOL. Who have you been talking to?

  299. @Kristine – what a great topic for a thesis!

  300. @ Aafke: No, I have not told American Bedu what to do. Find me a comment on here where I have given her orders. You won’t. All I have done is comment that I find it strange.

    And like I have said before, disagreeing with Islam or Saudi…whatever. But when you start to call Muhammed a pedophile (like you did in one of your comments), that is bashing. Is it that hard for you to understand?

    Lastly, please find in these comments where I have mentioned Saudi was “so great”. Thanks.

  301. c@onigirifib:…she was CIA..now who looks stupid.
    “As to insulting Islam Muslims should know that the West values human right which include freedom of speech”..yeah thats why Guantanemo bay is still open rite?
    @Harry..”So what? Carol was serving her country. What is your problem with that???”
    so when muslims are serving their religion in every aspect ..u shudn’t have a problem with that either.
    @Aafke”Bella-vita, Such a cheap comment. But you prove my point: you are such a brilliant example of how religion, or at least Islam, does not elevate people but rather makes them more prone to become nasty and judgmental. As well as using cheap comments and cop-outs.”..if u think it was a cheap comment..its kinda sad u think the truth is cheap. Your the only thats copping-out here..u claim to be an atheist and then we see you talking about being involved in christmas activities..are you confused? You may call it it cheap or cop out.but at least i keep it real.

  302. What bashing? Read your own holy books. Even if the raiding pillaging, enslaving and raping and murdering and assassinations were”normal” for the time, it is not considered normal now. We have developed far, far above such barbaric notions. Which makes the Quran and flanking books obsolete and something we should forget about.
    We should go forwards not backwards, and you should try some logic thinking and reading, because I explained in simple words, using your own words, that you contradict yourself constantly.
    And you still do not get it.

    No wonder you believe in superstition and magic and invisible sky daddies. You cannot read, and you cannot use logic.

  303. Bella vita, I find religions quite amusing and besides, I will be involved in any activity which includes food and fun.
    And Christmas is only one of them.

  304. Do you feel special or something, Aafke? The sheer arrogance of you is astounding. Instead of respectfully having a difference in opinion, you’re disrespectful and insulting. How immature and unnecessary.

    Say what you want, I will continue to believe what I believe and you can continue to be bitter. Take care.

  305. Amal

    Why don’t you stop attacking and lay your premise down one point at a time. Granted you have a number of people coming at you. However, if you are wanting to make a point then lay it out as point number 1, then the next point. Then explain your rational. Just a suggestion. Apparently you really want people to take something away from your visit to this site. All you have to do is construct it in a different manner. Right now you are going all over the place. Give your argument, then sit back here the objections and counter.

    Friendly advice.

    There is nothing wrong in celebrating christmas. It is a fun happy holiday with a big fat man with a white beard dressed in a red suit. With an entourage of 8 tiny reindeer. Where children get a tree and present and the commerce is stimulated thus ensuring many jobs. Everybody is happy. Extra added benefit is people think a little bit more about others and give a little bit more of themselves. You can spin a holiday anyway you like. That is the beauty of it.

  306. ‘I have not been hateful. I’ve not gotten personal and insulted anyone or their beliefs. ‘

    Perhaps not but this comment ”I find it odd, American Bedu, that you claim to have such a fondness for Saudis/Muslims, yet a majority of comments on each of your posts is of people mocking and belittling the Muslim faith and Saudi culture. ” DOES sound as though you are berating
    (be·rate (b-rt)
    tr.v. be·rat·ed, be·rat·ing, be·rates
    To rebuke or scold angrily and at length) those who expressed their personal views on Islam as well as Carol for allowing them to do so.

  307. I am being bad and deviating from the topic but I wanted to make a comment on bigstick’s comment about Santa.

    I was furious last night when I saw a Best Buy commercial which had a sassy shopper kick Santa off of her roof! For many young children Santa is a figure they believe in and parents have lifelong memories of the delight and awe when their child sees a tree on Christmas morning with all the gifts “delivered by Santa.” This commercial can be traumatizing to many young children who would not understand why a woman would be so cruel to Santa Claus. For them, at the young stage in life, he is an icon.

  308. @Aafke..”Bella vita, I find religions quite amusing and besides, I will be involved in any activity which includes food and fun.
    And Christmas is only one of them.”…..
    how convenient..
    “We have developed far, far above such barbaric notions. Which makes the Quran and flanking books obsolete and something we should forget about.”..
    who’s we??? LOL,,u? I think u are so bitter of the fact that Islam is not and never will go away…in fact its only getting stronger.
    It must be hard always telling yourself that you strongly dislike (won’t use the word hate lol) all organised religions when atheism is just another organised belief system…. its just that your prophets are Dawkins/Watson/Darwin etc.

  309. @ Prosciutto: So you’re going to judge that all Muslims hate Jews and blame them for everything because you frequent extremist forums? I don’t know if you know this, but this the internet. There is this phenomenon where people act in ways they normally would not in real life. This includes being rather aggressive in their views sometimes just to stir the pot. Have you not read the comments under Western news articles as well? I bet if I find an article on gay marriage I will see a large amount of people commenting how disgusting it is and so forth. Writing hateful comments online is not exclusive to Muslims.

    About the verse, if you are going to critique it, it is best to do it in it’s original Arabic. Having said that, which religion on Earth does not believe their way is the right way?? Why call out Muslims for believing their faith is better one? If I walk up to a Christian right now and ask them if their faith is the best, they will obviously say yes. As for the transgressors part, perhaps it is referring to hypocrites. How many do we know out there who cherry pick Christianity to their liking?

    If you want to go by the logic of “What have Muslims done for the world in the last 100 years”, let me ask you: What has the country of Rwanda done for the world in the last 100 years? What has Cambodia done for the world in the last 100 years? Does this suddenly mean they are not worthy of occupying Earth because they have not “contributed” on such a scale as America has or Europe. You might as put South America, Mexico, and parts of Asia, Africa in that category too.

    Your ignorance shows when you say something like “luxury goods Saudis cannot live without”. Not all Saudis are rich. Many are poor and barely getting by. This is a problem the government needs to fix, of course. But surely one does not need “luxury goods” to survive. People survived in Arabia before technology did they not? They can survive again with out it.

  310. Im curious, when surveys etc are done which ask something like…what religion do you follow…it is well known that a lot of americans will tick christianity simply because they it is the default religion among all of them…even if they dont practice or consider themselves actual christians. Many have a hard time ticking nonreligious or anything to do with nonbelief etc. So I wonder…how many muslims would be capable of ticking nonreligious or nonbelief on such a survey? Having lived among them for so long I do know that many of them do not actually believe in most of what the quran says…or simply have no desire to practice what it says but they do put on a show for others. Why? Because to not go through the motions of being a muslim can have serious consequences for the individual and the family etc.

    So if muslims were capable of being honest about just how faithful and practicing they are…I wonder what those numbers would indicate as to how many actual practicing muslims there are in the world…especially in “islamic” countries.

    The idea that islam is getting stronger is rediculous and without merit. There are no numbers to back that up…just personal feelings and this bizarre one up manship that religious folk need to bolster their numbers above other religions. Who cares how many people follow a specific religion…what matters is how they behave while following that religion.

  311. @American Bedu:

    I have not seen that one yet. Yes, many children don’t associate christmas with religion. They associated it with Santa, tree and presents. It is about families coming together, bring people together for happiness and cheer. In this light, I think Christmas is great.

    I like the Easter bunny as well, kids associate it with hidding eggs and getting chocolate.

    Commerce is happy, jobs are kept, people pay their bills, and children are happy. Parents are broke.

    @Belle Vista

    My you are in a rip roaring mood tonight. Do enjoy any part of life? Got any sense of humor or are you a stick in the mud?

    First, the fastest growing segment is non-believers or nones.

    Second, Islam is circling the wagons because in knows that too much information is being disemminated and shedding alot of light on its text and origins. Many countries in the muslim world censor any agruments against Islam whether by the internet or by books, throw out scholars who disagree, arrest apostasy and some kill them, blasphemiers, you are forbidden to leave or change you status as a muslim. So tell me how is it possible to actually know just how fast the religion is growing when you hold a knife to someones throat if they leave, keep them from expressing their opinion, or just kill them. Tell me don’t you think this is a reaction from countries who are in great fear of Islam losing its standing? I for one think it is. Islam is giving it’s all in its last stand and that is why so many fear transparency, debates, and historical accounts. Circling the wagons. Just my assessment. You don’t have to agree.

    By the way, if you can’t leave a religion ever even if you don’t believe, then how do you know how many muslims there truly are? Lying to yourself is really the worst lie of all.

    Islam reminds me of the song, “Hotel California” at this point.

    Just some points to ponder.

  312. Amal:

    I can also walk up to a Christian and ask about contradictions, historical accountings, discrepancies, discuss recently acquired new text and actually have a conversation on it. Many will even disagree with how the text was put together. They will listen to criticism, weigh pros and cons. Debate, have alternatives to views and discussed past scholarly works. I know Christian pastors and bishops who’s kids are atheist. They accept it and still debate theological points. There are some factions of Christians that are rigid and inflexible but not for the majority. This has really has occurred even more so in the last 20 years.

    I have heard that argument about you must be able to read it in Arabic before you understand it fully. I am sure you have heard all the remarks back at that one as it is an old and not convincing tactic. So, I will not even address that tactic as it is a worn out record. The you differ to other countries another tactic. Yet another old tactic.

    Your point is taken that websites do invite more outspoken people from different websites and certain websites cater to the extreme side. Point taken and it is a good point.

    Also correct Muslims don’t corner the market of hateful tirades. Another good point there is a lot of poverty in Saud that is not being addressed. Maybe a re-distribution of wealth is in order as it is well know that many Saud’s shop till they drop but they are the more middle to upper class.

    I have no problems with people cherry picking their religion to make it palatable and more humane. The more cherry picking the better. I just have a problem with people saying the bad parts don’t exist.

  313. @Bela-Vita,

    “all organised religions when atheism is just another organised belief system…. its just that your prophets are Dawkins/Watson/Darwin etc.”

    Hmmmm, you really need to learn more about the world. Atheism does not have any organization, there are no places to congregate (like mosques and churches), there is no central dogma, there are no central figures.

    For your info Darwin is a scientist. He just happened to have developed one of the best scientific theories. The only people that make him into a prophet are religious people. For atheists he is just a scientist a very distinguished one but not a prophet. We do not take any of his ideas outside of his field as gospel. Same can be said about Dawkins etc.

    The only common believe for atheist is the lack of proof for a god. That does not make a religion. What makes a religion is having a complex believe system that includes a dogma and an organization such as clergy.

    “who’s we??? LOL,,u? I think u are so bitter of the fact that Islam is not and never will go away…in fact its only getting stronger.”

    Islam is not getting stronger. One of the reasons Muslim groups resort to acts of terrorism is the fact that they are weak. I know you will refer to Islamic parties winning elections as a sign Islam is on the rise. Actually it is not. Islamic parties are only winning 60% of the votes. If these same free elections were held 10 years ago Islamic parties would have won 80% of the votes. In 4 years from now they will lose elections.

    The world is becoming more secular all around you. It is because of something called the internet. Illogical ideas such as religion cannot win in open forums and new generations are paying attention. You no longer can close minds with censorship.

  314. “Who cares how many people follow a specific religion…what matters is how they behave while following that religion.”

    Great point! When people tell me there are 1.5 billion Muslims I think, “are they counting Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Gaddafi, bin Laden” etc. in those figures? (Granted 75% of those are dead now, but …) Or are they counting only ‘real’ Muslims? And then how do they determine who is ‘real’ or not? Are Shia’s? Are Sunnis? Are Druze? Are Alawais?

    For the record, I think the number of Christians is far, far fewer than the reported 2 billion for the very reason you mention, Coolred. For many people it’s more of a culture or check the box default option rather than a true follower of Jesus.

    I’m not really into who will win the numbers war. As you mentioned, how you live your life is what matters.

  315. Given Islam’s violent history and the unfavorable contrast of its oppressive practices against 21st century values, Muslims are hard-pressed to repackage their faith in the modern age. Some of its leading apologists have come to rely on tricks involving semantics and half-truths that are, in turn, repeated by novices and even those outside the faith. Such as ….

    “If Islam were a violent religion, then all Muslims would be violent.”

    “Other religions kill, too.”

    Muhammad preached ‘no compulsion in religion’ (Qur’an: 2:256)

    The Crusades

    “Muhammad never killed anyone.”

    The Qur’an Teaches that all Life is Sacred (Qur’an 5:32)

    “Muslims only kill in self-defense.”

    The million dollar wager that “Holy War” isn’t in the Qur’an.

    “Verses of violence are taken out of context.”

    “Islam must be true, because it is the world’s fastest growing religion.”

    “The Qur’an can only be understood in Arabic.”

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm#arabic

  316. Prosciutto:

    I read the article. Okay so they harassed her, they shouldn’t have but can any of them stand up for themselves without fainting/disorientation maybe? I mean seriously one issue and I will give up my job and it had nothing to do with the job but the Haia. Apparently there is a need to teach people how to confront these issues, question it and then demand explanations. Then raise all kinds of heck with superiors/media afterwards.

    I don’t agree with the Haia action but can someone say “Drama Queen.”

    Does anyone else think this way or am I just being a little harsh here?

  317. @Coolred: “it is well known that a lot of americans will tick christianity simply because they it is the default religion among all of them”…they may also be ticking a random box cos they can’t read.

    @BigStick
    “Second, Islam is circling the wagons because in knows that too much information is being disemminated and shedding alot of light on its text and origin” …Whats there to hide??..maybe u should rite the new version of Davinci Code but this time base it on Islam. Cnt wait for u to expose the “real” Islam!
    “So tell me how is it possible to actually know just how fast the religion is growing when you hold a knife to someones throat if they leave, keep them from expressing their opinion, or just kill them”
    Where is the knife to Wafa sultans throat? or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? or even bloggers on here who left islam?..
    “Tell me don’t you think this is a reaction from countries who are in great fear of Islam losing its standing?”..no

    @Proscuitto
    “If a well educated, professional woman is treated like this, what can the ordinary housewife expect?”
    LAME!..

    @MoQ.”The only common believe for atheist is the lack of proof for a god.”
    To be honest atheists are just like people of all faiths trying to make ppl see they are “rite” their ideas are the “best” their system is “perfect” whilst pushing their belief system onto others..Atheists seem so extreme and fundamentalist…Maybe were more similar than u care to admit.

  318. Amal, here is why criticism of islam is needed….

    I post a story about Aceh, in Indonesia, where sharia is taking over life, just like in Arabia…

    http://extragoodshit.phlap.net/?p=150513#more-150513

    Quote: Residents of Aceh are reluctant to openly criticize Sharia. “You can’t say you’re against it because that would mean you are against religion,” says a woman named Leila. After talking to people for a while, however, tongues start to loosen. “In elementary school, the veil has become obligatory since the Sharia was implemented, including for young girls,” says a teacher who wishes to remain anonymous out of fear that the mild critique could invite repercussions. “It is very discriminatory. Imagine all the women who work on the mountain slopes in the coffee fields with their obligatory long robes. These clothes are a source of accidents,” said Khainan, 25, who admits to fearing God less than she fears the police.

    The fact is that radical, intolerant Islam is spreading and I blame people like you, Amal, who prefer to argue with infidels than tackle your own intolerant Imams and leaders (Well, we are a lot nicer!).

    You treat women like dirt, even since the times of your prophet (and there are lots of stories from the hadith that denigrate women) but you claim ‘hate’ when we talk about these facts. I think Muslim women are in for some very bad times…

    By the way, ‘extragoodshit’ is great site, on my daily list. IT IS NOT SAFE FOR WORK OR HOME, but it has great material even without the nudes. You have been warned!

    Good ol’ Kactuz, always spreading culture and opening minds.

  319. Bella-Vita

    No, I don’t. Why, you ask. Because westerns are a curious sort who like asking questions, confronting problems in text, tinker, exploring, pulling things about, re-questioning, analyzing, debating, re-analyzing, re-testing, re-thinking, trying new things, debating again, this just goes on and on and on like an energizer bunny. That way we are so inventive and sometimes downright irritiating. I enjoy the hell out of this, don’t you. I learn a lot out of this, don’t you. If you are not then your are missing the whole point of this exercise.

    To a western pull apart things and seeing how it works is just down right fun.

  320. Bella-Vita:

    Those people live in the west. Then other people have lived in the west who were not muslims but wrotes something about mohammed and died because of muslims. Many bloggers also live in the west as well others use fake names.

    Why don’t you chose a country that doesn’t accept apostasy or different religions from being heard. Stop re-directing and actually deal with the realty in muslim countries.

  321. @MoQ – ‘Atheism does not have any organization, there are no places to congregate (like mosques and churches), there is no central dogma, there are no central figures’

    So I guess you’ve never been to an American Atheist picnic. My husband dabbled with them for a bit then said it was no better than going to ‘church’. They still wanted to tell you what to believe and worse, they still wanted your money! lol

  322. @Lynn

    Aren’t atheist a difficult group because they are thinkers? Second, what was the purpose of the money for. I know with ffrf.org. It is keeping religion from permeating the public sector and they use money for education. The thing is religion has organized for it’s agenda. Atheist are starting to organize to confront relgions more and more. Again, non-religious is estimated to be the 3rd largest group in the US and rising. So there is a lot of power in that. 2nd largest is Catholic and they are bleeding members.

  323. “To be honest atheists are just like people of all faiths trying to make ppl see they are “rite” their ideas are the “best” their system is “perfect” whilst pushing their belief system onto others..Atheists seem so extreme and fundamentalist…”

    Hmmm,so your definition of religion now is having an opinion?

    And what system atheists push. Is that an atheist political system? A specific dogma? etc. What is it exactly these people are pushing.

    “Maybe were more similar than u care to admit.”

    Please, do not go around insulting people like that!!

    @Lynn, I will never go to a place where someone can tell me what to believe.

  324. @Bigstick..you didn’t answer my questions..so maybe your “missing the whole point of this exercise”

  325. @big stick – No you are not the only one thinking Drama Queen.

    “I tried to go inside the hospital but the Haia member prevented me from doing so and blocked the door. I could not understand what was going on. I felt so bad and started to cry. I lost consciousness and my colleagues took me inside the hospital,” she said.

    I’m sorry people but that does not fit the image that people keep trying to show us about these strong, confident, educated Saudi women.

    Must be a cultural thing. Seriously, Yousif is the little burned Iraqi boy that was brought to the US for treatment. In his story he was attacked (for his families religion) with gasoline and set on fire at the front door of his house. When his mother heard a commotion she ran to him and promptly FAINTED when she saw him. Seriously! How the HELL are you supposed to help your child if you can’t keep yourself conscious?

    @Bela Vita – ‘Where is the knife to Wafa sultans throat? or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? or even bloggers on here who left islam?..’

    Are you serious?! ANd how about Irshad Manji? She still calls herself Muslim but she needs special protection from the Muslims that think she should be dead for the way she practices her religion.

    @Jay – ‘Good ol’ Kactuz, always spreading culture and opening minds’

    LOL Thanks Jay, we do appreciate that. 😉

  326. If you do not believe that mohammed was a pedophile, barbarian, murderer, rapist, pillager etc…than what difference does it make if someone else claims that he was? You have your personal belief and that should be enough for you. Religious figures along with the religion they created shouldn’t have to be off limits or considered a sacred and sensitive subject that must be tiptoed around in order to prevent religous adherents from getting their feelings hurt. As a matter of fact, it should make you feel proud that unbelievers simply don’t get it while you are among the righteous that are ‘the best among nations”. The fact that muslims (and I say muslims because I have never personally met anyone from another faith do this) do get so upset when mohammed is villified is perplexing. It is simple enough to argue against…go into your islamic history books and give us a counter argument that makes the clams that he was all those things and more…false. You (any you) never claim that he didn’t do those things…you just try to sweeten it up so it doesn’t sound nearly as bad as it actually is.

    You cannot for a moment believe that after killing all the males in a villiage that a woman who had just seen her husband and father killed would find it in her heart to forgive the killer and not only agree willingly to marry him…but sleep with him that night as well. Not only does that paint a less than honorable picture of mohammed…but what the hell does it say about the lady in question that would behave in such a way…callous, cold, easy? Is that the sort of woman that was chosent to be among the Mothers of the Believers? How do you wrap your heads around that story and come away with a love story with a happy ending? (just one example among many)

    The history is there…read it. Muslims themselves are the ones that paint this picture of mohammed that nonmuslims use to argue with. They left a detailed account of his life…the good the bad and the goddam ugly. To get an acutal reliable picture of who the man was…you have to read all of the ugly right along with the good. To do otherwise is a true disservice to yourself…you are basing your faith on the identity and actions of a man that are only half represented in your mind. Nobody is good all the time. Nobody. That is impossible. And arabs were a bloodthirsty warring culture that lived by the sword, exacted revenge swiftly, and lived off the wealth they earned through raids and pilgrams who travelled there. Are you seriously wanting to believe that all that magically stopped just because a man emerged from a cave and said..hey now…there is no compulsion in religion…can’t we all just get along?

  327. @MoQ.”Hmmm,so your definition of religion now is having an opinion”..of course..just like you profess you have an opinion in your own religion.
    “What is it exactly these people are pushing.” That there is NO God..and your pushing hard believe me.
    “Please, do not go around insulting people like that!!”…tear
    “I will never go to a place where someone can tell me what to believe.”
    So now your saying you don’t go to those places were all u atheists
    “congregate”? so are you an atheist or not? Maybe your afraid to find out it really is an organised belief system..

  328. Bella Vita:

    I don’t think I am missing point. Maybe you aren’t explaining it in a concise, understandable and logical manner. Care to try again. If it is so important to you for me to understand, I am all eyes.

    Go for it.

  329. @Big stick – ‘Second, what was the purpose of the money for’

    I don’t know, I wasn’t married to my husband then but I would guess that they wanted money to pay for things like this http://www.atheists.org/events/2012_National_Convention

    Perhaps it was to personally fund Madalyn Murray O’Hair? She has disappeared WITH their money never to be seen or heard from again.

    Anyway, my husband didn’t hang around them for long, too much ‘religious’ talk for him. I don’t know what he was thinking! 😉

  330. Okay everybody. Have I missed Bella Vita’s point? Can someone explain it to me?

  331. @Bella-Vita,

    I am not pushing there is no god. I am challenging the dogma your religion is pushing, because I know it is detrimental to humanity.

    I am also challenging you to provide proof for that god. Quite different than advocating for a no God solution. I will believe in a God once you have provided sufficient proof of it. Can you?

    “So now your saying you don’t go to those places were all u atheists
    “congregate”? so are you an atheist or not? Maybe your afraid to find out it really is an organised belief system.”

    You have not provided a definition of a system of believe of atheist. saying people get together in a picnic is avoiding the question. Now can you define what is that system of believe you keep referring to? or will you avoid providing proof again.

    And yes, i do not go to events as you described 🙂

  332. @Lynn – Prosciutto:

    Glad I am not the only one who goes “Drama Queen.” I would never want her near me. Get me a real woman who can deal with life to operate on me.

  333. @bigstick..”Okay everybody. Have I missed Bella Vita’s point? Can someone explain it to me?”

    I shall repeat..altho i didn’t think it was going to be this hard for you..i asked you

    Where is the knife to Wafa sultans throat? or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? or even bloggers on here who left islam?..’

  334. **Bella-Vita**

    I answered that. You just don’t like the answer and cannot face the fact that in the west you can get away with it to a point. However, in muslim countries you cannot.

    I believe someone answered this as well. Maybe you have comprehension problems. Could some else explain to Bella Vita where this explanation could be made cystal clear on Bella Vita’s level.

    Anyone, any takers?

  335. Your an organised belief system yes you are…a whole lot of ppl together agree that they do not believe in God..they Debate and
    organise..lecutres/rallys/websites/even calling for school curriculum’s to be changed to suite atheists beliefs..so thats enforcing your beliefs on others…Thats my definition of an organised belief system..Organising together through a common belief system..which in your case would be “belief in no god”. This organisation will have a meeting place/ frequent meetings/discussions about their belief system and comparing it to others…all of that pertains to atheists as well.

    Maybe your not aware of what your atheist colleagues are getting up to in the big wide world. They are actually just as extreme and forceful as any other religion/belief system proving to be the best.

  336. @Bella Vita – ‘Where is the knife to Wafa sultans throat? or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? or even bloggers on here who left islam?..’

    Are you asking that because you WANT to see the knife there or something? Because if you know that these people exist you should also know aboout their security issues and death threats. Remember? Theo van Gogh who made the movie from her screenplay?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director) uh huh, he got the knife, didn’t he?

  337. BIgStick..”when you hold a knife to someones throat if they leave, keep them from expressing their opinion, or just kill them.”

    My question
    “Where is the knife to Wafa sultans throat? or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? or even bloggers on here who left islam?..’”

    BigSticks answer:

    “No, I don’t. Why, you ask. Because westerns are a curious sort who like asking questions, confronting problems in text, tinker, exploring, pulling things about, re-questioning, analyzing, debating, re-analyzing, re-testing, re-thinking, trying new things, debating again, this just goes on and on and on like an energizer bunny. That way we are so inventive and sometimes downright irritiating. I enjoy the hell out of this, don’t you. I learn a lot out of this, don’t you. If you are not then your are missing the whole point of this exercise.”

    Excuse me if i am confused. Do u need others answering for you now?

  338. Bella Vita:

    Unfortunately, many religions go to the extreme it then creates an equally and opposite reaction. Then this goes back and forth. The sooner or later you hit the middle and stay. Then someone comes and goes to the extremes again and the cycle starts again. Have you ever studied physics. Pendulum motion, exceptionally applicable in the situation.

  339. @Bella0Vita,

    None public anonymous figures obviously do have to worry about security issues.

    Wafa Sultan, receives death threats constantly and was forced to go into hiding multiple times for security purposes.

    Ayaan Hirisi Ali, is under constant security protection. Actually She was under protection by the Dutch government after a Radical Muslim Killed her collaborator (Theo van Gogh). She remains under security way after leaving the Netherlands and moving to North America.

    There is no Knife at these people’s throat, for the obvious reason that if the Knife was there they will be dead already. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you denying that people like these and the famous example of Salman Rushdi are not threatened by radical Muslims?

    Good luck trying to make people agree with you on such none sense…

  340. @Bella Vita – ‘They are actually just as extreme and forceful as any other religion/belief system proving to be the best’

    OMG!! Stop the presses! She actually said something that I can agree with! 😉

  341. Bella Vita:

    No, you need someone to interpret what I am saying because you are incapable of understanding English or you are just dense. I am not sure which, I am leaning towards dense.

    Good one, Lynn.

  342. @MoQ – ‘None public anonymous figures obviously do have to worry about security issues.’

    But actually, there WAS a man who was murdered (I believe he was in New Jersey) and they thought that it had to do with his frequent on-line heated debates with Muslims. No lie. This would have been several years back. Maybe we can pull something up on it.

  343. @Bella Vita,

    You stillhave not shown a common believe system

    Saying that people are organizing to insure religion is not taught in school is not a believe system. It is upholding the constitution.

    Giving lecture on combating religious influences is not a believe system, it is exercising freedom of speech to voice opinion.

    Again, where is the common belief system that atheist share other than the belief that “religions have not provided proof of a god, so it is not worth believing in it”

  344. @Lynn, He was not so anonymous was he. It is sickening that people should fear for their life over exercising free speech. And we get commentators here who do not believe the threat is real until the person is dead.

  345. @MoQ – I think he TRIED to be anonymous. But I can really say because I can’t remember the details right now. But yes, it IS sickening.

  346. Lynn, said: “@MoQ – I think he TRIED to be anonymous. But I can really say because I can’t remember the details right now. But yes, it IS sickening.”

    Sounds pretty creepy!

    Interesting that it could have happened to someone in the U. S. where there is a gun for every man, woman and child.

    Do not know the details, but perhaps he got involved with someone in email exchanges who was practicing taqiyye and gained his confidence? Can you dig up the specifics, Lynn?

    What is so very disturbing about Islam is that this sort of targeting happens all the time. Other religions get criticized and even reamed regularly, but we do not see their adherents going around threatening violence, maiming or murdering those with whom they disagree. There have been plenty of “honor” killings in the U. S. and in the rest of the West.

    This sort of behavior is just one of the reasons people constantly claim that believers are still in the dark ages and their practices uncivilized.

    A religion or belief system that cannot stand up to scrutiny or criticism has something lacking. 



    Muslims should themselves be examining every aspect of the ideology. Although, I doubt that there can be a Reformation. If you take out all the violence and objectionable practices you are left with Christianity, from which Muhammad took the Meccan passages for the Qur’an.

  347. Hey, look! The Haia’s got a PR campaign going:

    Haia intent on improving its image

    … “A number of working papers dealing with the two issues were discussed after which a number of recommendations were issued with a view to creating a positive image of the Haia.

    Among others, the recommendations included:

    • The need to use modern communications means in Haia’s activities.

    • The enhancement of ties with various civic societies.

    • The participation in public events, festivals and conferences so as to ensure communications with all the sectors of the society.

    • Highlighting the achievements of Haia in favor of the society.

    • Praising the media for contributing to strengthening ties between the Haia and the society.

    The scientific committee of the meeting will be studying all working papers and the recommendations with a view to strengthen ties between the Haia and the society. http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article545645.ece

    Science modern communications and a 7th century morality corps? That should really impress the youth. ROTFLMAO!!!

  348. This is the kind of thing that scares the Hell out of humanity with respect to Islam:

    Saudi sentences Aussie to 500 lashes

    MEDINA, Saudi Arabia, Dec. 7 (UPI) — Australia has appealed for leniency from a Saudi Arabian court that sentenced an Australian man to 500 lashes and one year in jail for blasphemy ….http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2011/12/07/Saudi-sentences-Aussie-to-500-lashes/UPI-66621323262413/

    Blasphemy in the 21st century and the guy is not even a Saudi. Why in the heck would anyone in their right mind ever visit or live in Saudi?

    500 lashes will kill anyone.

  349. @MoQ…If u havn’t noticed i dnt care if ppl agree with me or not..
    Mr BIgstick was saying that there was a knife to peoples throats who have left Islam..i wanted to see were the knife was..he wants to speak in literal terms then i am going to take it as a literal meaning..Sure u hear about them having death threats but that is because they are publicly trying to defame Islam.
    In the sharia..if u leave Islam and keep it to ureself and not make a public stance about it… thats ure personal decision and should be kept that way..but once ppl like wafa and hirsi go on and on and on to the public most of the time blatantly lying through their teeth about their “when i was a girl ..cue tears” stories ..then according to the sharia..it deserves a punishment.
    @Bigstick…damm ure still whining about not being able to answer my question..sad

    Just a comment on the “Saudi sentences Aussie to 500 lashes”…First of all he is Shia..and its very common for Shia to slander the Sahaba and Aisha. Second of all he thought that because he had aussie citizenship that he could do what ever he wanted in saudi and aussie government would bail him out..wrong! Thirdly..its a good lesson to show other shia who come for hajj and cause many problems including slandering of the Prophets (saw) relatives …and to see that if they wanna do those things they should try going to Iran and not Saudi. I think they will drop the 500 lashes but keep the prison sentence just because Mr Rudd is getting involved.

  350. Prosciutto, the man allegedly said something about the Mohammed’s family somebody did not like. Mohammed is more important than Allah, so saying something which somebody doesn’t like about his family is important enough to count for blasphemy, That makes Islam a Pantheon I think.

    Besides the bloke is Shia so isn’t really Muslim to the Sunnis anyway. Killing Shia is a good thing. He is a sick man btw, so I think he won’t survive the bad prisons and the lashings. His family was not even informed.

    About the muttawas, that list does nothing to improve the muttawas image, that list will help them harass more people in more ways, and more frequently.
    The media has been reporting on them beating up innocent people, crashing cars with arrested women inside and leaving them in the street, killing schoolgirls, knifing men who wont order their wives to cover their sinful eyes, killing men, etc. etc. so how they are going to put in the rule of Highlighting the achievements of Haia in favor of the society. is a mystery to me.

    The last one: Praising the media for contributing to strengthening ties between the Haia and the society. is just hilarious. Makes you wonder if you are in the real world at all or just having a very weird dream. Who makes this up?

  351. Ah Bellavita! Thanks for commenting. If it were not for you one might think somebody made up these barbaric news stories, but you prove that it is all real and that there are humans who are so deluded, and so nasty and vile that it is all really true.

    You know, if some normal people tell me I am exaggerating all this stuff about how vile Muslims are I only need to show them your comments and they have to admit I was right.

  352. @Prosciutto,

    What is funny is the man is a pilgrim. Or in other words, he came to the country to spend his money as a religious tourist. He is also a devote Muslim otherwise he would not be there. Instead of thanking him for supporting the economy and being a good Muslim performing his religious duties they want to lash him.

    What is worse, is this type of thing happens often to people from the third world. If the man was Indian, Bengali, Pakistani, etc. you would not have even heard of him. He would have been left in jail until he received his lashing.

    Let’s hope for his sake the Aussie’s raise enough noise to shame the Saudi King into giving him a pardon.

  353. Sometimes I wonder if Bellavita is really true or if she is a troll, a fake person made up by an Islamophobe to show how evil Muslims are…

    I read your comment again, and it’s just flabbergasting, you really are a most disgusting excuse for a human being.
    Can you be real?
    If you are then I wonder if there’s hope for humanity at all.

  354. @**Bella-Vita**,

    Your positions a about people being threatened by Muslim, people being tortured by Muslim, people being killed by Muslims, etc. are sickening.

    There are many good Muslims out there.You are definitely not one of them. Just a sorry excuse of a human being.

  355. **Bella-Vita**,said:

    @MoQ…If u havn’t noticed i dnt care if ppl agree with me or not..

    You must care, otherwise, why waste your time? Oh, wait! Maybe you are confined to your house and have nothing productive to do all day and night but watch Saudi soaps and play on the net? Why not take up knitting?
    Mr BIgstick was saying that there was a knife to peoples throats who have left Islam..i wanted to see were the knife was..he wants to speak in literal terms then i am going to take it as a literal meaning..Sure u hear about them having death threats but that is because they are publicly trying to defame Islam. “

    When one tells the truth about Islam one is in danger. The truth is not defamation! Even if it were, so what! Show us other pious people from other religions who threaten to KILL people if they insult their religion. How many have actually done it? A handful vs. the tens of thousands that Muslims have murdered.

    Theo Van Gogh was murdered, almost decapitated (with a knife) by some Muslim-nutter because Van Gogh had the nerve to write truthful Qur’anic verses on the bodies of abused Muslim women.

    There are plenty of “honor” killings in the West when young women become too Westernized or leave Islam.

    “In the sharia..if u leave Islam and keep it to ureself and not make a public stance about it… thats ure personal decision and should be kept that way..but once ppl like wafa and hirsi go on and on and on to the public most of the time blatantly lying through their teeth about their “when i was a girl ..cue tears” stories ..then according to the sharia..it deserves a punishment. “

    Leaving a religion and telling the truth about what happened to them deserves punishment? In the civilized world such “punishment” is illegal and will land the perpetrator in prison for a long, long time.

    “First of all he is Shia..and its very common for Shia to slander the Sahaba and Aisha. Second of all he thought that because he had aussie citizenship that he could do what ever he wanted in saudi and aussie government would bail him out..wrong! Thirdly..its a good lesson to show other shia who come for hajj and cause many problems including slandering of the Prophets (saw) relatives …”

    Oh, it is always so heartwarming to see how Sunni Muslims love the Shia and other sects. Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance.

    It is apparent that old Mo is the god-head and allah merely runs a close second. Muslims worship the “perfect” man, Muhammad the warlord, the slaver, the paedophile. They want to be just like him and many Muslims are successful at being just like him.

    And you wonder why people object to Islam.

    _____________

    PS—why do you have an Italian nick? The Vitas of Muslim women are not so Bella!

  356. @Aafke
    “I read your comment again, and it’s just flabbergasting, you really are a most disgusting excuse for a human being.
    Can you be real?
    If you are then I wonder if there’s hope for humanity at all.”

    Aww so dramatic..but then again i feel exactly the same way when i read your comments..

    @MoQ
    “There are many good Muslims out there.You are definitely not one of them. Just a sorry excuse of a human being.”
    What do we have here?…the voice of reason for the muslims now…interesting.

    @Prosciutto
    “Leaving a religion and telling the truth about what happened to them deserves punishment? In the civilized world such “punishment” is illegal and will land the perpetrator in prison for a long, long time.”
    I was talking about Sharia..
    “PS—why do you have an Italian nick? The Vitas of Muslim women are not so Bella!”…why ask when u made ure own assumption?

  357. bigstick, said:

    Bella Vita:
    No, you need someone to interpret what I am saying because you are incapable of understanding English or you are just dense. I am not sure

    Nah!

    What she is bigstick, is a kid with too much time on her hands. Look at the texting writing style.

    There is nothing to do except eat and shop in her gilded cage. This is her social outlet. 😉

  358. Hello Bella Vita:

    How the heck are you today? Oh, my. Apparently our last blogging session has got your panties all twisted in a knot. Oh, I am sorry make that an abaya all twist in a knot. It must have been painful for you and still apparently is with so much up there. Ouch.

    I apparently I got your goat. (You can take that literately or figuratively for all I care)

    I laughing my butt off right now. Knowing you are popping a cork. Steam coming out of your ears. Just wanting to goad me into this asinine debate.

    Here is my response: Raspberry, Raspberry, Raspberry

    If you don’t what that means have someone interpret it for you.

  359. You don’t get it bellavita? I did not write my comment out of flippancy, I am truly disgusted to the depth of my being by your comment. Your comment can lead a rational human being to only one conclusion: you are a lost soul, committed to evil.

    You are a perfect example of how religion infects us, poisons us, and corrupts our innate morality. Your morality is so bad that you accept things like murder and torture as sanctioned by your book and you are proud of it.
    You feel pleasantly selfrighteous supporting murder and torture.
    You disgust me to the point of feeling sick.

    I hope that with your mentality you don’t bring children into this world, but if you do I hope they all become thinking, feeling, rationalizing, homosexual atheists.

  360. @Aafke..No i do get it and i truly feel the exact same way when i read what you write. Don’t be so shocked that your words make me feel as sick as you claim you are when you read mine.

  361. I don’t think you guys are being fair to Bella. We all knew she is a proud, strong revert and we know what reverts are like (as opposed to your regular everyday convert). No one should be shocked by what she said and we should be thankful that she is willing to share with us because it’s good to know what you are dealing with, eh?

  362. @Bella-vita,

    “What do we have here?…the voice of reason for the muslims now…interesting.”

    I am almost sure I know more Muslims than you do. Most of them do not take the Sharia as serious as you do. Most will be disgusted by what you say here and will not want you to speak for them…

    What you’re basically saying is “calls for murder and torture (as in 500 lashings) are OK”, because it is sanctioned by your dogma. We just happen to think you have no morals. This type of thinking which encourages elimination of opposition of a system at the all costs is called Fascism. The only difference in your level of immorality and someone like Hitler is that he was successful at implementing his.

    Face the facts Bella, you are simply an immoral person who has no problem with murder.

  363. @ MoQ: So you’re saying that if someone -God forbid- were to do something as terrible as [for example], raping a child, they do not deserve the death penalty?? There was a case here of a man who took a little boy from the Mosque and raped him and then killed him… The police caught him and he was executed. I think he absolutely deserved it and I am happy the police brought this sick man to justice. If that makes me an “immoral person who has no problem with murder” then so be it.

  364. @Amal,

    Someone can debate the death penalty and its effectiveness and whether you can have a justice system that can be fool proof enough to administer final justice. Of course a child killer and rapist should be taken out of society, jailed or executed. That is a separate issue entirely.

    However, what I am discussing here is calling for the killing of innocent people not criminals. Bella-Vita is advocating for lashing of people because they are Shiiat and say things she does not like. She says that writers who write against Islam should be killed. I call that immoral.

    Understand the discussion please, before you take a position.

  365. @ MoQ: Sorry, I thought you were discussing Shari’a as a whole…

  366. @Amal, No problem.

  367. Hello all:

    The name I use as bigstick was in use so now I am bigstick1. Definitely needed a different avatar as I don’t even come close to representing Saudi Arabia’s values.

  368. @Bigstick,

    Gravatar associates the avatar with the email address.You still can comment using the name bigstick instead of bigstick1.

    And looking at your new avatar that thing in the middle can easily be mistaken for a phallic symbol by the wrong people. Have’t you read the cucumber article? I think Bedu will have to ban you now to keep from insulting some of her readers 😉

  369. if you are a muslim then chances are you may support sharia. There is a punishment for blasphemy (under conditions of course)..wether they are shia or not..although some shia muslims have been known to go out of their way to say vile things against the sahaba and Aisha. I never said that just because they are shia they should have that punishment..nope it applies for everyone.

    @MoQ”Face the facts Bella, you are simply an immoral person who has no problem with murder.”…
    The main thing apart from tawheed that drew me to Islam was the fact that there is a punishment for those who do wrong, There is a sentence for the pedophile/rapist/adulterer etc. Wether the sentence is carried out in this life or on the day of judgment. There is justice for the one that has been wronged throughout his/her life. Like Amal talked about above..when that man raped that small child..and was killed, justice was served.. I wouldn’t have it any other way. i support sharia 100%..don’t see why thats an issue.

  370. @MoQ

    Great, I hate bigstick1. So if america bedu doesn’t kill me I will be back to bigstick.

    I will take my chances on the phallic symbol. Far be it from me to deprive someone of some type of entertainment.

  371. @bella-villa,

    It is an issue if you are calling for the killing of people who did not commit a crime. Exercising free speech is not a crime unless it causes specific harm. Arguing against a religion (an ideology) is not a crime, however your outdated morals calls it one and assigns a death penalty to it. Hence you are immoral. We are not talking about rapists here….

    Regarding the Tawhid thing. Aren’t you making people sacred when you are calling for punishment of a shiiat because he/she said the wrong thing about the Sahabah. Aren’t you in effect making 10’s of idols by making so many people sacred? Give that some thoughts!!

    The point Bella is you have twisted your logic into knots by listening to your new found religious leaders. You can no longer understand what morality is about…

  372. @MoQ:

    Bella Vita a dedicated member of the beast.

  373. bella-vita…when you make speaking against a religious person(s) “blasphemy” you are trying to push the idea that they are above reproach…above criticism…above humanity in some way. You make them “saints” and there are not supposed to be saints in islam….that goes against the whole concept of islam and is spoken about in the quran itself. The sahaba and aisha and hell even mohammed were not saints by a long shot. Were not perfect by a long shot and NOT everybody has to hold them in such high regard as you or any other muslim. Muslims shouldn’t be afraid to speak their feelings about anything in islam…to instill fear of punishment in a muslim for speaking his or her mind means to control what people say..only allowing good stuff and forbidding the “bad” stuff…and whose to say what the bad stuff is? Oh yes…clerics, imams, and Sunni muslims apparently.

    The fact that you think muslims (and do you include non muslims in this too) should be punished for merely expressing an opinion contrary to popular belief defies logic…and any sense of “islam is peace”….unless you add the qualifies…”to say otherwise will get you punished accordingly”. If a muslim believes aisha was something other than honorable…so what? What does it take away from you, from islam..from god? Same with the sahaba. How does it affect YOU?

    This is a huge problem among muslims…you take things so damn personal. And by personal I don’t mean you get upset and feel the need to speak out (as does anyone who feels something they believe in is being stomped on) I mean many muslims feel the need to take action…physical action…against the perpetrator. THAT is the basic issue so many people have with islam and muslims. You want to make your personal feelings or beliefs about something as some sort of law others have to follow..or pay the price. It’s religion…you either follow it or you don’t…but you shouldn’t get punished for not following it..or not following certain aspects of it….or for merely talking shit about it. Does islam need defending? Does aisha need defending? Does god need defending? If they are worth the respect muslims claim…then they can stand on their own…no need to hold witch hunts and sharpen the swords for those that verbally attack it…right?

  374. “Aren’t you in effect making 10′s of idols by making so many people sacred?
    no…who’s making them sacred?? ure word not mine

  375. Bella-vita,

    When you punish a person for saying bad things about people who lived 1400 years ago, you are in fact making them sacred. That was your claim about the crime of the Shiiat Australian man. His only crime is he may have said a bad word about your idol Isha’.

    Do not get me wrong, you are not alone in this. Shiiat also have their idols that if you say one bad word about them they will get so incensed they will be ready to kill you.

    Don’t you see poor lady, you joined an insane cult. Wake up they made you into an unthinking cruel person!!!

  376. If they aren’t sacred then what’s so wrong about saying bad things about them that they should be punished for it?

    Did y’all happen to catch that news article about the Saudi caught for raping his daughter for seven years? He’s getting something like 2030 lashes or something (over a length of time so he doesn’t hurt TOO bad). Well, he does get some jail time too but why wasn’t he beheaded like sharia calls for?

  377. “… but why wasn’t he beheaded like sharia calls for?”

    Because the death penalty is a cruel and unusual punishment. The judge is a bleeding heart liberal, so he just went with the barbaric lashing thing 😉

  378. @Oby – Yes, thanks, that sounds like what I was talking about. I KNEW I wasn’t making it up 😉

    From your link – ‘A radical Islamic Web site systematically tracks Christians on PalTalk.com, an Internet chat service on which a New Jersey man received a death threat two months before he and his family were murdered. The password protected Arabic Web site, at the address http://www.barsomyat.com, features pictures and information about Christians who have been particularly active in debating Muslims on PalTalk.’

  379. Coolred…

    Pondering your comment. Since Muhammads every move was recorded…the good the bad and the ugly…I am wondering if in fact, he never expected to be so revered by Muslims. Any person who wants to give off the idea of perfection would not keep all the horrible accounts of his adventures intact to be read…and maybe at some point used against him. Perhaps the records were kept for a different reason. Maybe it was to let those who wanted to be part of a winning “team” know that Muhammed had superior tactical skills and if they joined with him they could be assured victory in the land far and wide. If one wants to be thought of as a prophet bringing good news and blessings to the world one doesn’t make sure that their bad deeds are front and center in the permanent record. Just a thought.

  380. @oby,

    Mohammad did not keep records of his activities nor did he give instructions to do that . They were collected over a century later by the likes of Bukhari and published as Hadith.

  381. @ MoQ

    Islam is the only one of the world’s major religions that has been historically documented. Whether Muhammad actually existed is completely irrelevant, since the deeds of Muslims were recorded in the Qur’an. The Qur’an was orally recited in many dialects until it was finally collected in writing by caliph Uthman in 651, nineteen years after the death of Muhammad. Uthman was one of the companions of the prophet. Those parts of the Qur’an that Uthman felt were not “authentic” or conflicted with his views of Islam were burned.

    One of these original copies of the Qur’an is currently kept in the Topkapı Palace, in Turkey another, although a fragment, is in Tashkent.

    The ahadiths are the sayings or deeds that met with approval from Muhammad and are the basis of Islamic jurisprudence, sharia law, while the Sunnah are what Muhammad practiced and taught as the best examples for all of mankind. Sunnis throughout history have considered the Sunnah as a sort of biography of the life of Muhammad. The Hanafi and Malik schools of Islamic jurisprudence differ as to which ahadith and Sunnah are authentic. The result: Islamic infighting.

    Imagine if all people behaved as did the “perfect” man, Muhammad. =:o

  382. @Prosciutto,

    My comment was in the context of responding to Obey’s inquiry of whether Mohammad should have known that his deeds were recorded and should have behaved better.

    I may disagree with some of the items you indicated, but I am not sure we have a context for a discussion on this.

    For example, I think Mohammad’s existence is 100% historically accurate and there shouldn’t be any dispute about that.

    “Imagine if all people behaved as did the “perfect” man, Muhammad. =:o”

    I cannot imagine living is such utopia

  383. It wasn’t that much documented, actually that is rather strange, people did write in that time. It would be quite possible to have numerous contemporary copies of the Quran but strangely enough we haven’t, instead the earliest are from much later periods, and the earliest ones have been whisked out of sight because they show proof of rewriting and re-organizing.

  384. I believe that Sana’a manuscripts of the Koran is currently the oldest. It was discovered in 1972. The research is under Gerd R. Puin of Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. The actual text dates back to 705 to 715 and there are differences in the text from those copies today. In addition the parchment had been washed and re-written over indicating that the text was evolving and unstable. There has been considerable amount of opposition to the text and numerous Islamist have tried to discredit or diminish the impact of what this discover could imply to the textual changes of the current version. I have read some reports that western researchers are only allowed assess to limited amounts of the existing korans. There have been some who say even these differ from the current text but they are extremely guarded and they limit the researchers access to the documents. If you read how Gerd Puin, was able to obtain copies of the Sana’a manuscripts then you will find it was quite an undertaking.

  385. I know, when they found out that these qurans show that texts have been changes and moved and chapters moved the researchers were thrown out, and access denied. I have read Gerd Puin.

  386. oby…thinking about your comment I have only came to one conclusion that made any particular sense. Possibly mohammed didn’t worry too much about his bad actions being made known later on because he wasn’t worried about later…just right now. He was The Man in arabia in the 6th century. People fell at his feet and did his bidding without thinking twice…that’s alot of power to have…most people who have that sort of power aren’t too concerned with later and consequences…just caught up in what they can do with that power right here and now. Also…quite possible mohammed never really expected his creation to grow and have the worldwide following that it does now…so why worry about how your actions may be perceived 1500 years later? Just a thought.

    I do find it rather ironic that those who protect the early copies fo the quran and limit access to them…also are quick to point a finger at the jews who kept the dead sea scrolls under lock and key for so long…being accused of hiding facts etc. Then again…the written bible was kept locked up from the average lay person back in the day…christian leaders didn’t believe joe schmo should have access to such holy text…which also meant they could tell christians the bible said this or that…and joe schmo had to take their word for it….another poweful tool to keep the faithful from questioning a religions legitamacy.

  387. Considering the morals which the Quran and hadith exhibit I would say they were perfectly happy and proud of themselves with raiding unsuspecting villages, killing, assassinations, torturing, enslaving and raping. These stories positively gloat over stuff we now think is disgusting and vile. They would be happy to put them to paper, they were proud of themselves and their actions. They had no inkling that a few centuries later people with far more evolved moral capacity would find them disgusting and despicable.
    Actually I don’t think that was in their mind anyway. Mohammed thought up a religion, by plagiarizing here and there from the Jews and the Christians, taking over a lot of practices and superstitions from the pagans, and the purpose of this religion was to get him what he wanted, power, and lots of women. I don’t think he cared that much what would happen after he was dead. But the people he left behind did care, for with the religion came the power, so immediately after Mo’s death you get a war. And the religion split straight away.

  388. @ MoQ, As I said, Muhammad’s deeds were recorded—first orally—later in writing in the Qur’an. Jihad to further Islam is part and parcel of Islamic scripture in the Qur’an. Muslims are very proud of their bloody deeds, especially those of Muhammad and his companions. They believe jihad is noble and so was the behavior of Muhammad, the “perfect” man. All good Muslims desire to emulate that behavior.

    @ Coolred38, Muhammad most certainly did expect his newly minted religion to grow. The Qur’an states that all peoples must become Muslims and that Islam must rule.

    The Qur’an is the only “holy” book that has a whole section on war booty and slave taking:

    Surah 8. Al-Anfal (Spoils Of War, Booty)

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    1. They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: “(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger. So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe.”

    Qur’an 8.41. And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things. http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation8.php

    It always stuns me that the “perfect man” the Messenger gets one fifth of the booty. Everyone knows that widows and orphans tend to get very little in the Muslim world.
    Here are some quotes from the Qur’an regarding women:
    Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. (2:221)

    “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will” (2:223).

    The Qur’an also declares that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man: “Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her” (2:282).

    Men may marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls: “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice” (4:3).

    The Qur’an states that a son’s inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: “Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females” (4:11).

    The Qur’an tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them” (4:34).

  389. @Prosciutto,

    I am not getting the context of why you are telling me this very basic, Islam 101 info?

  390. @MoQ

    Don’t go there, it could be a bit your leg off argument.

  391. MoQ, said:
    @Prosciutto,
    I am not getting the context of why you are telling me this very basic, Islam 101 info?

    Because, you stated this:

    “Mohammad did not keep records of his activities nor did he give instructions to do that . They were collected over a century later by the likes of Bukhari and published as Hadith.”

    Which is incorrect as I have shown in a number of post because the deeds of Muhammad were duly recorded in both the oral and written Qur’an.

    Muhammad gave instructions for the memorization of the Qur’an. The Qur’an was written down by Caliph Uthman a mere nineteen years after Muhammad’s death and not over a century later.

    @ bigstick

    “bit your leg off”? lol

  392. @Rpesciutto,

    You did not show my statement to be incorrect. Mohmmad in fact did not order people to write hadith. That small distinction is important for what I am trying to tell Obey.

    And really, what makes you think I do not know such simple info like Quran was passed orally and people “observed” the behavior and sayings of the prophet. I mean seriously how would Bukhari collect Hadith if that was not the case?

  393. presciutto…@ Coolred38, Muhammad most certainly did expect his newly minted religion to grow. The Qur’an states that all peoples must become Muslims and that Islam must rule

    Just because he wrote it in there doesn’t mean he thought it was going to last beyond a certain point after his death. He could write anything he wanted in the quran…and he did. God always gave mohammed whatever he wanted…to rule the world seems the next logical step. He definitely had delusions of granduer…but what do you know…he had millions ready to support his delusions in this case.

  394. @ MoQ

    I am not talking about the ahadith. The authenticity of these can be challenged as shown by the constant infighting amongst Muslims. Ahadith are mere legends of Muhammad’s behavior and deeds. I am talking about the Qur’an which is the definitive guide for all Muslims because it is claimed to be unchanged and immutable. Not true, as we have noted, but it makes for a nice fairytale.

    @ Coolred38,

    Muhammad was a greedy warlord whose objective was to rule all people. Certainly he expected his ideology to grow; he left no room for deviance, variance or individual thought. Every aspect of life is covered by the Islamic rules. Very clever that guy; the first fascist.

    Muhammad reminds one of a kid who is loosing at playing a game and then proceeds to change the rules. Aisha commented on the abrogations.

  395. @ Prosciutto:

    “Certainly he expected his ideology to grow; he left no room for deviance, variance or individual thought.”

    Who knows if he expected it to grow. I mean the quran is filled with abrogated verses as it was necessary to keep people from leaving. If Muhammad actually existed maybe he actually thought when he died people would have seen it for what it was, him as a leader holding on to his power however he could. Of course, I could just be giving him too much leeway. He could have just not given a damn and for him it was all about using the people to meet his needs. I mean after all why care about people who can be lead to kill, rape and torture in the first place. One has to wonder if such people deserve the riches of this life that humanity has to offer or the hell they chose and create for themselves. After all, the dogma is perfect. A perfectly caged mind, a perfectly cage body, a perfectly cage enviroment, and a perfectly way to torture self and others. Humanities perfect cage.

  396. @ bigstick

    The Qur’an is not organized in order of revelation, it is compiled in order of size of the 114 surah. Abrogation began after Muhammad gained significant power.

    Here is an excellent article regarding the issue of abrogation: http://www.meforum.org/article/1754

    As Muhammad’s power grew in Medina he put down more and more laws to control the daily lives of Muslims, including marriage, divorce and spousal maintenance and male superiority, as well as the spoils of war.

    There are 114 sura in the Qur’an. Sura number 5 is
    “revealed” to Muhammad as number 114—the very last
    one. It seems as if old Mo really wanted to sock it to the
    Jews and the Christians because they refused his
    messages.

    ““005.051
    YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the
    Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but
    friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you
    that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah
    guideth not a people unjust.
    PICKTHAL: O ye who believe!”

    Muhammad fought for over 20 years to
    secure his imperialistic, hegemonic Islamic
    empire. That means he fought BLOODY
    battles for Islam. Only a psychopath,
    criminal, socio-path does what Muhammad
    did. No true prophet from God fights bloody
    battles, murders, dismembers, maims, rapes
    and enslaves people.

    No prophet from God tells his followers to do
    the same—and Muslims have been doing
    murderous Mo’s bidding for 1400 years.

  397. @ Prosciutto:

    I am aware of the abrogation and how the koran is put together. What I am saying is if Muhammed actually existed, which I have my doubts, is he abrogated passages for his own self-interest and never actually gave a damn whether this went any further or not. It was his (supposed) followers who actually put together the koran out of fear of losing the message of power at any cost. Quite frankly it amazes me that people haven’t seen through this as it is nothing but a debased power hungary destructive individual.

    What it does tell me is that I can sell just about anything to anybody and get a whole lot of people buying it with nothing more than a pen stroke.

  398. @bigstick, I think Prosciutto thinks every little fact about Islam is a new discovery for people on this blog. Otherwise she would not be lecturing us endlessly with Islam 101 topics 😉

  399. @ MoQ

    I guess I should thank you for having more confidence in my ability to understand Islam 101. I thought what I posted earlier was self-explanatory. Apparently, I was wrong.

  400. @bigstick,

    We will move you to the second level, after you get through Hitchens’ Audio Book series. Do not let Nisa beat you in that quest 😉

  401. @ MoQ:

    Funny. English 101. Hahahaha. Thanks. :0)

  402. I agree with Moq (horrors right)…prosciutto seems to believe we are all novices on islam on this blog. I have yet to see anyone come to school us on such basic information that pretty much everyone knows about islam. Now the question is, does she see us all as truly ignorant of these facts…or trying to merely set up her credentials? At any rate, she needs to know that she needs to up her game a little (a lot)…there are very few here that need a basic class on islam.

  403. the simplest explanatiion… stupidity!!!

    grow old saudis, even your nationals hate it!!!

  404. @ Prosciutto

    So you are doing this as a teaching point for the reader?

  405. We rule this holy land by the rule of Allah (the true one God who was worshipped by Adam, Noh, Ebraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed (phu all of them). Who every wanted so called democrazy life… we kindly advice you by a simple command.. get out of this holy lond. We listen to God commandments and we obey God alone and who every corrupted people, whatentrr corrupted laws they wanted let them get out of this land if they dislike the rule of Allah.

    We did not request you to come to this country, you came to this land as you do not get this comfort jobs and life in your so called democrazy countries.

    By Allah will, we will erradicate, all kind of bad cultures you bring to this country.

    May Allah bless Prince Naif and all other authorities for enforcing Islamic laws in this holy land.

    Muhammed ibnu Abdul Rasheed.

  406. To All brothers and sisters.

    All the messengers of God came to this world to cammand us to worship one true God.

    Unfortunately all the groups were later on deviated by bringing partness to this True God in worshipping.. Thanks to God only one group of people still remain in keeping the Unity of God without breaking are the Muslims who follow Islam.

    So kindly learn what Islam says about the Unity of God

  407. @Muhammed

    Religion will never offer unity. How many different sects are there already which divides even muslims. It will never unite people only create division. Once you realize that religion and faith are not the same the better off all humanity will be. If not, then more wars and conflict are bound to occur just as it has in the past because there is nothing more inflexible and uncaring than the very religious and the righteous. History speaks volumes and so does the religion texts. All replete with murder, slavery, torture, prostitution (sexual slavery), hatred of differences, mental stagnation, apartheid, the list goes on. The only time you might be offered some kindness during times of upswing in the unchecked religious atmospher is if you belong to that religious sect and even then that can depend on gender, sexual orientation and sometimes race. The very religious are also known to be the most judgemental and oppressive even of their own. They are always watching and waiting for people to err in by thier assessment. By the very nature of watch they have become creates hell on earth for anyone who is human enough to err. Only when humanity gets free from this lie will humanity be better off. Until then we shall see witch trials, inquisitions (death of apostate, heretics, honor killings, etc.), slavery, torture, imprisionment, etc. This is what religion brings when it is allowed to thrive for it is a dogma against the very nature of humankind. Faith is meant to soar and be free. Faith can be beautiful and noble. Religion is a dogma that binds faith and slowly kills the soul of humanity. To date religion has never offered unity but it has been instrumental in creating human destruction and horrors. When religion has been contained only then has humanity been allowed to thrive and learn. Religion was designed for the sole purpose of political control of the masses with an elite few that are truly the benefactors. When it has been allowed to run rampant then it send humanity backward into the darkness. History has shown this time and time again.

  408. Muhammed, for many centuries before polytheism and then the Abrahamic monotheism came along people already worshiped one Goddess, the mother of all life on Earth. All religions after that are corruptions of the faith of the Great Goddess.
    The black stone has always belonged to the Great Goddess, it’s about time people see the folly of their ways and return to the true religion, the true god, the One who made all life. The great Goddess.

    And that would naturally include finally giving women respect and their God-given human rights and freedoms.

  409. Mr. Muhammed ibnu Abdul Rasheed,

    I have bad news for you. Your god is plural. He/she/they constantly use the pronoun ‘we’. In fact, if you read the Quran, your prophet is really a partner with Allah. Allah and Mohammad make decisions together, one represents the other, and oh yes, they share the loot (20% of all plunder). That makes them partners.As you say “Unity” – which implies more than one.

    The only thing to decide is who is the senior partner… I think Mohammad comes firsts, then poor Allah. Have you ever seen a Muslim care about Allah? Of course not.

    PS: About sharing the loot – I doubt that Allah ever showed up to collect his part.

  410. I am going to eat kittens in the morning as always.
    But I was planning a nice evening at home reading a book and a nice tasty meal to celebrate the winter solstice, with lots of candlelight and chocolate, and a phonecall to my dreamrabbit.

  411. @ Lucretia

    They have replaced that tradition with the sacrafice women by means of conducting the ludicrous virgin test. If you fail you are honor killed. Amazing that no one teaches them that about 40% of women’s hymen’s are so brittle or thin that they can easily be broken by just about any exertion.

  412. Why has it always been a virgin female that is sacrificed? Ah yes..men made the rules..not likely to hold themselves up to such standards…and god agrees.

    The one time a male was asked to be sacrificed..god intervened at the last moment with a casual..I was only testing you…good job..you passed. Sheesh..if only all those females had been similarily let off the hook by divine intervention at the last minute.

  413. Lu, yes I know about the “Royal We” – even so, for a religion that makes the “oneness of god” a central point, the use of the plural form is strange. I would think it poor form that Allah would sacrifice theology on the alter of literary or political convention.

    Then again, I think that I could make a good argument that Mohammad is, for all purposes, a co-god to Allah, given his attributes and powers described in the Quran. As I have said before, Muslims care more about their prophet than their lesser god. Sniff. The “we” then may be just Mo and Allah speaking to their faithful.

    Ah libations… My kind of gal. You Borgias really know how to live it up…
    .

  414. I LOVE SAUDI ARABIA…so I was a bit surprised by this post (still hoping that it’s not true…)

    I just graduated from college in my country and I was planning on working there…so this news really is a total downer (if it really is true)

    I kinda wanna share my experiences haha so read if you like 😀

    I lived in KSA for most of my childhood – 8 years (I’m a foreigner and I’m not Muslim) because my dad had to work there and decided to bring us (me and my mom) with him.

    And I enjoyed my stay there for the most part, since compared to my country’s economy, KSA was better…I was able to experience a life with luxury because of my dad and my mom getting a good salary there.

    Since I had studied there up to high school, I gained Muslim best friends. Up to this day, we are still as close as ever.

    And since I’m female, my friends are female as well.

    I remember how we used to hide from Muttawas because they keep telling us “Cover your hair! Cover your hair!” haha

    Since we were young we were allowed to wear hats instead of a tarha and at that time, we wore BLACK hats, and the Muttawas still continue telling is to cover our hair because the color of the hats matched our hair and they didn’t seem to notice…and when we proved that we WERE wearing hats…they went on their way looking humiliated.

    Most of my Muslim friends told me that Saudi Arabia seems to have a different policy regarding females…

    One of them said that in her country (she wasn’t Arabian) women weren’t required to wear abaya or to cover their face…they were only required to wear long sleeved loose clothes and long loose pants (of any color) and a scarf for their hair (not needed to be totally covered)…

    In their countries, women were allowed to read the Quran, so they read regularly about their religion. And somehow, it confuses them that some things said in the book are different from what the Saudi Arabian government enforces.

    They all told me that the elderly MALE scholars of Islam have twisted the teachings to their benefit.

    They also told me that they do not like the fact that in the future, they may be married to a man with multiple wives.

    My friends have been exposed long ago to international cultures, so they’ve watched and read stories about love between a man and a woman…and in effect, they developed a yearning to be married to a man who will love only them.

    Though they said permission is asked by the husband from his wife if he could take another wife, they expressed that they would be devastatingly hurt if this ever happened..this makes them wish that they were allowed to marry someone who is not a Muslim or, if possible an educated Muslim man who believes in loving and marrying only ONE WOMAN…and understand that they have a brain and that they are NOT BABY-MAKING MACHINES or SLAVES.

    I met one of my friends’ male cousin once…and you would not believe how annoyed I was at him!

    His family was really strict in terms of Muslim laws and he was born in KSA so he was enrolled in a Saudi school (me and my friends was in an international school) and thus acquired some nasty attitude and bias.

    He kept treating me and my friends like we were inferior to him. He kept joking about stuff like, “Are you sure you understand that?”, as if we were stupid!

    That was the first time my friend met him too (it was a reunion or something…and they were allowed to bring a friend) so she was really surprised by his snotty attitude.

    I told him to shut up and blurted out that his cousin (my friend) was an honor student (which was true) and that he was probably stupid. My friend backed me up and we looked like two women on PMS.

    Then he started lecturing us that a good woman should not talk back to a man.

    My friend and I just rolled our eyes and laughed our way to the table to get some food.

    The annoying guy told his parents about us, who in turn told my friend’s parents about it. I thought she was gonna be punished, but surprisingly, she wasn’t.

    Her parents actually laughed about it when we were alone with them.

    It just means that some Muslim families are more open minded than others.

    Well, for the good part, I kinda enjoyed wearing abaya outside haha…it’s really flowy and loose…so it hides a lot of things (haha my baby fats back then XD)….and then inside the house and at school, i got to wear what I want (so I felt balanced and insecurity was not an issue :D)

    I really believe that if people actually lived in Saudi Arabia, they would see that it’s not the same as what the media always portray the country to be.

    And if they were to befriend a Muslim (or any other person with a different religion), they would realize these individuals are still PEOPLE and they would finally stop holding on to media stereotypes…

    And if you’re wondering, I’m a Catholic Christian.

    If my random bits of stories were confusing, I apologize :O My mind is a bit jumbled and I have yet to sleep…but I just wanted to express myself haha so yeah…

    Anyway, after this long (or short…haha I got tired typing) story, all I want to say is that I hope KSA would get better and that this blog’s contents are not true…

    …for the sake of my friends and family (both Muslim and not) living there.

    P.S.
    I do believe that religion should not interfere with government matters…since the government needs to keep facts and logic to promote a good country. Religion mainly deals with the supernatural aspects of living and man so, yes it may cloud the logic required to progress a country.

  415. Seriously… The women of the older tribes in The Philipines only wear a single cloth to cover them and yet they are treated with high respect and they even walk in front of men… they can even be the leaders the tribe!!! Men and women in those tribes are equally treated. although their way of living may not be so civilized… I think it’s better to live there… Do you guys agree?

    Also, I can relate to IforOne, we’re almost the same, exception is that we’re not the same person… =)

  416. […] was a busy month with many posts exceeding comments of 100, but the most active post was about the Mutawa and received 431 […]

  417. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

    THEY SHOULD STOP RUINING THE SOCIAL LIVES OF PEOPLE.

  418. FOR THE RECORD, the Saudi govt does NOT represent the whole of Islam, but only a sect called Wahabism, which most Muslims do not follow.

  419. But, to complete the record, the Saudis are working (and paying) hard to expand their view of islam to other countries, and it seems to be catching on, you can see more and more Muslims all over the world getting less and less tolerant, and more extreme, you see more and more women covered, a country like Malaysia which always had the reputation of an open and tolerant society is now burning churches and forcing women to wear skirts instead of pants, delivering innocent travelers to Saudi for an almost certain death penalty.
    We will have to deal with an islam which is influenced by Wahhabis all over the world.
    And after all, the Islamic scriptures do support a hateful, intolerant, suppressive form of religion.

  420. @AmericanBedu I came to your website looking for info on dealing with these religious police in the event you are stopped and they demand to see your iquama. Are you able to advise on what our rights are and what never to do when dealing with the religious police? Hubby and I recently got into a pretty intense situation with them where they used their car to prevent our car from leaving and we sat in the car for at least 30 minutes trying to contact our embassy and hubby’s sponsor and the muttawa had called on the police. We were stopped over my failing to cover my head and my blatant arrogance and pissing the muttawa off when I pretty much shouted at him about I will put on my head scarf when Im bloody ready. I was carrying groceries in both hands and I was about to enter the car when I was flagged and frankly couldnt be bothered and just got in our car. They were demanding for our iquamas and to get out of our car and hubby would not. He was adamnant that he was not handing over his iquama on the understanding you should never do so is that correct? he was also weary about getting out incase they would haul us off for no particular reason. Only when the police finally showed up that we gave into handing over our iquama to the muttawa and upon inspection of our iquama that we were allowed to leave and told to collect our iquama from the area’s police station! Eventually the head of HR of hubby’s work returned our call and they would send someone to collect our iquamas on our behalf during the work week as this happened on a friday. Would appreciate any info you can share about this and I’m sure there are other’s out here who will benefit from knowing what to do. Many thanks!

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