Saudi Arabia: Dress Code for Muslim Women


174 Responses

  1. I will never ever understand the arab/muslim obsession with hair (eyebrows/wigs etc included). Serioulsy…do YOU really believe god gives a good goddam about hair compared to all the other sinful things you could be getting up too? Jennah is denied to women who pluck eyebrows??? Really…cause god made you perfect….but…god didnt make men perfect cause they need to have a bit clipped off the penis to correct faulty equipment.

    So let’s recap…cover your hair and leave it alone cause god made you pefect..unless you want to go to hell…but…mutilate your baby boys because god didnt make them perfect and it’s ordered to be done. Is anyone following this logic cause Im not.

  2. Coolred…good point. This hair obsession had to come from something a long time ago that made it safer not to have hair. I think like pig being forbidden due to trichonosis, there must be some reason for it being not ok. But I will admit that they do seem to have a major obsession with hair. I don’t get it because I have never ever heard a man say he was turned on by hair or lack of it. Why is it required to remove it from all parts of the body except the face?? So if a lady has a facial hair problem (perhaps on the chin) must she leave it alone because “Allah made her that way?”

  3. I certainly agree with Coolred. The idea that a god with want to micro-manage behavior so much. It might have made sense to illiterate people in the middle east (or anywhere else in the 7th century) but it doesn’t make sense now.

  4. how can people believe that god actually cares about how u groom your eyebrows, how often you wax or shave your armpits and private parts and how long are your nails?
    I personally dislike those painted fake eyebrows but it’s not like I’m going to do something about it, same goes for fake blondes with black eyebrows. But at the end of the day it’s their like and they are free to do whatever they want with their bodies, out of curiosity I watched other videos of this character (whatever his name is) and all i found was a stupid obsession with silly details…

  5. Because religion is all about the man god. The man god is insecure and powerless. So the man god devised a way to became powerful by writing a book and pronouncing it devine. Therefore god who is man has send it down from the heavens. Heaven being a palace built by man with a haram that other men want so they go be like the man who proclaimed himself god. So then the delusion is taught to the children who then teach it to their children. This should be packaged like how electronic toys are packaged “batteries not include.”

    Here is should say, Religion, “brain not needed.”

  6. Oby, the reason for the difference very simple really, they can’t pluck their unibrows because they do that for vanity’s sake but their pubes being clear is to make things nicer for the man. Whatever!

  7. Oh my! So women should beware of other females at weddings because some gay person might love them — what a good reason to dress modestly. *rolls eyes*

  8. Good grief! We do NOT need a MAN telling us how to dress; He needs to shut his mouth.

  9. Here is an excellent post with an intellectual bent from a Pakistani male Muslim.

  10. SO hilarious when he talked about the eyebrow common amongst the arab/iranian women to have this thin freaky line tattooed on resembling what was meant to be an eyebrow..gross..

    @Oby.”Why is it required to remove it from all parts of the body except the face?? So if a lady has a facial hair problem ”
    no one said are actually required to remove all unsightly facial hair (unless u wanna go outta ure way to look like a man) except for the eye brows.

  11. btw couldn’t help announcing..

    “Islamist parties have surged to an overwhelming victory in the opening round of Egypt’s first post-revolution election”..Al jazeera News

    Told u guys muslims are coming back to their senses..this is something so exciting to see..the fact that muslims are choosing what they want for once..and we can all see what they want..Islam alhamdulillah.

  12. This guy is a douchebag. His use of sister over and over again to imply familiarity with the female audience, while threatening with hell fire over miniscule issues.

  13. @Bella-vita

    I do not think Coptic Christians would share your sentiments. Those parties that they elect will be like any other government (plagued with corruption), the only difference here is they have religion/god as their backer, you can’t argue with scripture now, can’t you? We saw how the situation worked so well in both Iran and Saudi Arabia, I just fear this might result in more rights stripped away from Egyptians. I don’t foresee a good future for Egypt, but who knows.

  14. “Told u guys muslims are coming back to their senses..this is something so exciting to see..the fact that muslims are choosing what they want for once..and we can all see what they want..Islam alhamdulillah.”

    that’s the kind of comment that really makes me sad…

  15. maybe if those islamist parties take over, a unibrow policy will be enforced lol

  16. @JC,

    I agree with you. Religious governments have not done well in every country they ruled. I do not think Egyptians will always elect Islamists. I think after 4 years with them Egyptians will vote them out. However that will be too late as this first Parliament will develop the new constitution. I hope the Army will continue playing a role even after the first election and guard against a Shariia based Constitution being drafted.

  17. @fonus..loved the unibrow comment LOL

  18. totally spelt your name wrong sorry its not fonus

  19. @MoQ

    You’re absolutely right when it comes to the Egyptian army staying in power, I’m sure they have ties to Israel as well. If they lose power, that’s another tie that the region has to Israel, and it definitely would set the “peace” process back.

  20. JC:
    “and it definitely would set the “peace” process back”
    There is no “Peace Process” !!

  21. To tell the truth, I’m a Muslim, and I still don’t understand the reason behind the objection of plucking of the eyebrows !!!

  22. Control

  23. “To tell the truth, I’m a Muslim, and I still don’t understand the reason behind the objection of plucking of the eyebrows !!!”

    Bukharri had a unibrow!!!

  24. Where is this man in the video from? He mentioned photos being sold in Balat for ten lira, if I heard him correctly. Lira is the Turkish currency and Balat is an old neighborhood in Istanbul — am I making the proper connections here? What’s the background on this man? And up with freedom of personal choice, whether it be about eyebrows, high heels or whom you love, yeesh….

  25. It’s so easy to judge us for following an order that sounds unreasonably ridiculous to you. But I guess when it comes to faith, we are not supposed to ask people to evaluate the command. Of course you are always free to criticize whatever you categorize as a “7th century’ belief”. 🙂

    I used to wonder about this issue among many others. I read and researched but I could not find a definite answer to why it is forbidden. Lately on Arabic forums I read about a study that manifests on the risk of plucking eyebrows and it claims that the process may lead to damaging some nerves. I am not sure how valid and reliable is the study, but I said to myself: yeah why not? It could be true.

    Generally speaking, for Muslims such matter is sensitive because of its position as a divine order, and for that reason so we can’t immediately reject whatever that does not appeal to common sense unless we have done a sincere research on the subject. Based on that, I have come to believe that some faith related issues were made to test if you would follow the divine order, or follow our desire. And seriously plucking eyebrows should not be one’s biggest concern; you can still look beautiful without shaping them, no? I think it also shows how confident you are about your look. If you believe you have bushy eyebrows, they will always look bushy to you. If you think otherwise, you will always admire every little detail in your face!

  26. @Saudi Woman

    Now I don’t mean to offend, but you’re a shining example of what I mean that most people are content with status quo over there. If you feel confident with a bushy eyebrow, good on you! Some women like to keep things natural and grow out their pits and leg hair, and they’re confident about it. The only difference is that is solely their own choice, you can argue that it’s influenced by feminist ideology, but that’s completely different when a certain text tells you’re rotting in hell if you pluck your eyebrows.

    You have your faith, I am sure I can not convince you out of it, because whatever you read is going to reaffirm your beliefs. All I’m saying, is that you have your own mind, would your God really hate you for putting it to good use?

  27. @Jessica

    I think at around 17 seconds he mentioned riyal, that’s the currency we use in Saudi Arabia. It’s curious that he’s speaking in English, so I figure his audience is somewhere outside of Saudi Arabia.

  28. i work in saudi arabia for almost 7years…..and i worked with saudi locals..the problem with no free marital and love partnership….saudi woman happened to scape from thier husband and meet thier lovers ,, even it was punishable by death….no liberty behind or under thier abaya it was pity to know they spending thousand of riyals for thier dresses and hid it under thier abaya……..saudi woman are bautifull and u can see it on thier eyes…….quote and quote…..

  29. @Saudi woman…”I have come to believe that some faith related issues were made to test if you would follow the divine order, or follow our desire”..totally agree
    @JC..”You’re absolutely right when it comes to the Egyptian army staying in power, I’m sure they have ties to Israel as well. If they lose power, that’s another tie that the region has to Israel, and it definitely would set the “peace” process back.” someone else said..there aint no peace process ….i think the whole point you seem to be missing is israel is the problem as to why there is no peace process..duh

    it shouldn’t really affect non-muslims how muslims need to groom themselves..considering the rules don’t apply to them… not sure why its such a big deal.

  30. @Bella-Vita

    “it shouldn’t really affect non-muslims how muslims need to groom themselves..considering the rules don’t apply to them… not sure why its such a big deal.”

    I know I have no friends on this blog, and that’s fine. It’s not fair for you to make that statement, some non-Muslims were previous Muslims. The idea behind grooming is not the one I take issue with, it’s just unsettling to me personally, when people take those statements literally, and not use common sense. Alright God gave you a unibrow, but he gave you hairy arms as well, why is it okay to shave your arms and not pluck your unibrow? I used to put in a great deal of effort into talking people out of their faith, that does not work, I understand that. I do respect what you believe in, I don’t understand why you follow it blindly, but then again faith is sorta like love, you don’t question it (that’s the Arab in me talking).

    In regard to Israel, they are definitely not the problem here. I think it’s deplorable what they’re doing with settlements, and they’re forcing them out. But that’s just pure pol-sci there, it’s a tit for tat policy. That’s why there’s a great need for diplomacy in that part of the world, if some of the major Middle-Eastern countries recognized Israel (pre 1967 borders or not), they can actually negotiate the issue as well. If there is an economic bond between two countries, or hell even an embassy between the two, that will help the peace process.

    Israel is not going anywhere, and I really hope it doesn’t. It’s about time the middle-east gets used to Israel as an ally as opposed to an enemy.

  31. I don’t have the source, but as I recall the statement of not plucking eyebrows was in the context of “like the prostitutes do”. It makes perfect sense that Muslims women should not make themselves look like hookers. I think that is the main point- not the specifics of eyebrow-plucking.

  32. me i aint got no friends on here either but that aint the point of us being here is it? ..i guess its to voice our opinions unscripted.
    Ok if u find it to be blind following thats cool and thats ure opinion.
    ..from what i have studied and understood of this topics is that the uni brow part is not considered part of the “eye brow” and it can be removed as it can look manly (although some women in the gulf area are considered more beautiful with it.)… and any stray hairs that are above and below the eye brow’s natural shape can be removed also cos hey some girls can be hairy.
    NO need to feel guessing u were a muslim and then left..and thats cool its ure choice..but ure not “blindly following” anymore so i dnt see why u need to feel bad for us..we have a brain and we can choose wether we want to follow this religion or not…but if we do choose to follow then we are going to do what being a muslim Allah of course.

  33. @ JC lol, no it’s ok. Let me tell you something; when I visit this blog I know my views as a Muslims first and as a Saudi second would not be received very well by some readers. Why? Because they feel I am being blindly defensive of things that do not appeal to common sense. So, It’s either I agree with them and abandon my beliefs/principles, or just take a deep breath and appreciate being described as “a shining example of whatever!” 😉

    Seriously though, my comment aims to shed light on the issue from Islamic (and personal) perspectives. And convicning the readers should not be an issue.

    “All I’m saying, is that you have your own mind, would your God really hate you for putting it to good use?” Your question is valid, I can’t deny that. But it would lead us to ask deeper questions regarding what Allah loves or hate and why. The best response I can come up with is that tests are tests, small or big/hard or easy! It’s a fundamental belief to be in complete submission. So, like it or not, plucking brows happens to be one of the means to test the strength of your submission to Allah’s commands. What baffles me is why do respect one’s choice to “keep things natural” while you question mine? It’s MY choice to believe in it, it’s MY choice to follow it… Bias has coloured your judgement. 🙂


  34. Silliness of Islamic Dress/Hair Code: Confessions Of An Apostate ….

    Muslim girl quietly leaves Islam and doffs hijab, lives double life in fear of parents. Her household was only “moderately religious,” and yet she still feels threatened enough to lead a double life. Apparently her parents are yet more Misunderstanders of the Religion of Peace :)-

    This girl has good reason to be afraid: Aqsa Parvez was murdered by her father for not wearing the hijab, and Rifqa Bary was slapped by hers for the same reason. Then there is Islam’s death penalty for apostates: Muhammad said, “If anyone changes his religion, kill him.” Some schools of Islamic jurisprudence, however, allow for the imprisonment of a female apostate until she recants her apostasy.

  35. @Harry..ure point is?

  36. Bella Vita…

    Come you really think the islamists are going to protect the nonmuslim rights in the country? If they did then that might be a good reason to have them there, but it won’t happen. The copts are going to get even worse treatment than they do now especially when it is enshrined in a constitution. And IMO if you were a Muslim who really believed the “no compulsion” ruling then you would not a government of any kind that discriminates against ANY ONE. I think we are about to see a great deal of compulsion…but hey once they get rid of the copts and others then it is easy to say no compulsion because there is no one left to have to actually be tolerant of and put that into action.

  37. And perhaps my memory is rusty but I thought it was you who claimed several months back that you were not an islamist when we argued this point. Yet you are happy the islamists are taking over? What is your definition of islamist then?

  38. It is very strange .Arabic is their language and Qora’an is in arabic , can’t they know ” La ikraha fid deen ” means there is no compulsion in Islam,so
    you can never impose anything on any one , neither in religion nor any of its component like hijab . Educate but every thing is on individuals free will , no one has any right to force any one , it is un islamic and whatever is un islamic is kufr Then if you try to find out you will know that the entire life of the Rasool e Kareem (saaws) never forced the deen on any one , his entire life spent in educating and persuing , so that only is sunnah but imposing is open apostacy , Saudis entire life is spent in coersion , oppression and suppression , exploition and what moments are left are spent in luxuries of life and fulfilling of carnal desires by polygamy, Misyar and gay culture , all Haraam in Islam . This is a true picture of the Saudi Islamic Code of Conduct and they shamelessly call themself practicing puritan Islam .

  39. It is very strange .Arabic is their language and Qora’an is in arabic , can’t they know ” La ikraha fid deen ” means there is no compulsion in Islam,so
    you can never impose anything on any one , neither in religion nor any of its component like hijab . Educate but every thing is on individuals free will , no one has any right to force any one , it is un islamic and whatever is un islamic is kufr Then if you try to find out you will know that the entire life of the Rasool e Kareem (saaws) never forced the deen on any one , his entire life spent in educating and persuing , so that only is sunnah but imposing is open apostacy , Saudis entire life is spent in coersion , oppression and suppression , exploition and what moments are left are spent in luxuries of life and fulfilling of carnal desires by polygamy, Misyar and gay culture , all Haraam in Islam . This is a true picture of the Saudi Islamic Code of Conduct and they shamelessly call themself practicing puritan Islam .

  40. @Saudi Woman,

    The whole idea of religion is to take faith which is natural and innate in all of us. We have faith in each other, faith that the sun will come up, faith that one day we will die, faith in finding love, faith in having children, faith in having happiness, faith in humanity, faith in god. None of this faith is bound it is just humanity. Faith is an act of humanity. Faith is instinctive within the human race. Our faith when allowed to be naturally human is the purest faith.

    Religion is the rules that bind faith. Religion is not faith. Religion is a control doctrine which inhibits our natural faith. It uses our faith in that which is greater and purer to sullen and dirty us all.

    That is religion.


    I think Harry’s point is the stupidity of it all is mind-boggling. The writing on the side of the box of religion is: No thinking needed, just follow the directions insert A into B, and oops we fake this part as it doesn’t make sense.

    My personnal favorite is from the old testament. God is omnipetent but he cannot defeat an iron chariot.

    Go figure. I sure others here can come up with some nice ones from the Quran.

  41. @Zaheerhusain Khan,

    I have been told by some Islamist that that whole no compulsion thing has been abrograted.

    You either are a muslim and will adhere to its tenets or you get the humilation tax.

  42. The situation in Egypt is so interesting. I really hope the best for everyone, but I am concerned about religious minorities simply because Muslims do believe everyone else is second-class. If they obey their prophet on such trivial things such as plucking eyebrows and shaving arm pits, what about their treatment of people in Islamic utopia?

    Earlier this year I read a book about Jews in Arab lands and what stood out to me after the creation of Israel are these statements from the book. They were very thought-provoking.

    The Partition problem also caused conflict in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood “called for the reintroduction of the dhimmi laws, which had been repealed by Egypt’s Mohammad Ali dynasty a century earlier, allowing both Egyptian society and Egyptian Jewry to flourish.” (pg. 213)

  43. Also I found this an interesting comparison. I had this on my blog…

    COMPARE this thought …

    “The Muslim world, inspired by Arab nationalism but inflamed by Jewish nationalism, still considered Palestine as an Arab country and part of the Muslim patrimony, in which Jews could live only as a subject people.” (pg. 201)

    with this one:

    “The imminent prospect of a National Home had given the Jews a sense of pride and a hope for a secure future. Jews would no longer have to put up with being second-class citizens, but that was how the Muslims among whom they lived considered them: the eternal, born dhimmis, subject to one form or another of the Covenant of Omar.” (pg. 205)

    So was the problem that Islamic faith said Jews were God-ordained to a certain role that Jews no longer were willing to play?

  44. Coolred I was thinking exactly the same thing when I watched the video. The guy speaks out of both sides of his mouth, eh? If we are to stay the way Allah made us there would be no circumcision, no shaving of body hair and so on. Also if we are to appreciate how Allah made us we would be able to listen to beautiful music, dance, enjoy all the beautiful things he created and put in human brains to create.

    I certainly did not see many bushy eyebrows in KSA. Mostly they were overly thin. Many Muslim women I know both here and in KSA do not pluck their brows but seem to think threading is permissible. So you see there are ways of getting around these religious gems such as plucking and try telling a women of African heritage that she can’t put in weaves or wear a wig. LOL!!!

  45. Harry Guccen,
    Firstly you are quoting Porphet Mohammad SAW out of context here,this is unfair.Secondly he also said that there is no compulsion in relegion.

  46. Farah, Shakeel, it’s too bad Muslims couldn’t just pick the good things Mohammad said then isn’t it??

  47. Oops … good is up to interpretation so I should have said too bad Muslims couldn’t just pick the peaceful, loving things he said including full female equality in all things.

  48. Sandy is correct. The prohibition against eyebrow plucking has nothing to do with divine orders. If you think it does, you don’t know your Islamic studies. Apparently at the time plucked eyebrows were common with hookers and Mohammed didn’t want regular ladies to look like ones. I find it very silly that this time-bound ban has been carried to this day, since you can’t tell hookers by their eyebrows any longer. But it’s not like common sense is a strong point with the religious.

    Yes, I’m not Muslim, no, it doesn’t affect me one bit, but you cannot outlaw laughing at the ridiculous.

    Bella, voting for Islamist parties is a political phenomenon, not a Muslim-revival one. Even if you believe Muslim voters are motivated by religious zeal (vs. promises of job and dignity), Islamist parties are motivated only by power – just like any other party. Nothing has changed from the time of your four caliphs. Furthermore, please name one country where Islamist rule produced tangible improvement in the lives of it subjects. You know that parties are judged by what they deliver, right?

  49. @farah shakeel,

    Seriously, I don’t believe you. I was absolutely told that, that no compulsion was abrogated and the only reason Muslims tell non-muslims this is due to appeasement. Amazingly, I would say that he and many who are critizing the doctrine actually agree here. So you are lying as far as I am concerned.

    Here is how it was explained to me:

    Scholars explained that those verses for no compulsion was for the purposed of jizyah which may be taken from Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. So the choice is to become a Muslim or to pay a jizyah tax. You are not forced to become a Muslim. Therefore there is no compulsion.

    There are scholars who stated that that only applied in the beginning and was abrogated by Allah’s command to fight and wage jizyad. The kuffaar should be compelled to enter into Islam unless they agree to pay jizyah as this leads to happiness and salvation of this world and in the afterlife. Obliging a peson to adhere to the truth which guidance and happiness is better for them than falsehoods. Their analogy was it was similar to if a person fails to pay money for services that that they will be imprisoned or beat. Therefore forcing the kuffaar into believing in Allah and enter into the religion is better for them as it leads to happiness in this world and the hereafter. The only excepts are those people of the book who can pay jizyah thus allowing themselves to fell subdued and humbled.

    Then there are scholars that only accept them becoming a Muslim.

    When the no compulsion part is applied it is only for the three religions listed for jizyah tax. The use of the no compulsion within the religion of Muslims to Muslims absolutely doesn’t apply. The analogy again was you force children to go to school learn certain subjects, go to the doctor, abide by certain society laws. Therefore you will be forced to adhere to the tenets of the religion.

    I asked why is it that Muslims tell you differently and was told it is because they are lying to appease non-Muslims. I was informed of this by a Muslim here in the USA.

    So stop lying. Why don’t you actually start facing the good, bad, really bad, pathetic, and downright ugliness of your religion. Wrestle the damn beast and get it under control. Seriously. Deal with how the religion is being used to harm people and stop going after those who actually want to live a in civlized non-barbaric backwards world.

  50. oby, on December 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm said: …… The copts are going to get even worse treatment than they do now especially when it is enshrined in a constitution.

    Ah! Arab Winter of Discontent …..

    That is an excellent point! Our Egypt failure is becoming all the more plain, and the cultural and political Islamization of our most important Arab ally may well become a presidential campaign issue before long here in the US. The New York Times reports that not only are Islamists ascendant in Egypt, but their most radical fringe is faring much better in the ongoing elections than expected.

    The party formed by the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s mainstream Islamist group, appeared to have taken about 40 percent of the vote, as expected. But a big surprise was the strong showing of ultraconservative Islamists, called Salafis, many of whom see most popular entertainment as sinful and reject women’s participation in voting or public life. Analysts in the state-run news media said early returns indicated that Salafi groups could take as much as a quarter of the vote, giving the two groups of Islamists combined control of nearly 65 percent of the parliamentary seats.

    Our meandering and capricious Egypt policy eventually wound its way toward abandoning Hosni Mubarak, the faithful US ally who had kept the peace with Israel and had been a source for stability amid the political ululating that passes for leadership in the rest of the Middle East. Once Mubarak got on a helicopter and headed for the Ritz Carlton Hospital to the suburbs of Alexandria, an immense power vacuum was created, the giant sucking sound of which was animated by every fundamentalist America-hater who can be found in Egypt.

    The people of Egypt will never love America. They won’t. And once the Muslim Brotherhood is running Egypt, they will suffer, and so will we. And Egyptians will get plenty of violence.

    And so it is coming to pass. The Islamists profess faith in democracy, and they will continue to do so as long as democracy shows its faithfulness toward them. Then, once they’ve consolidated their rule and gotten a rein on the military, they will thunder from the minarets about threats to sharia and round up the usual suspects, especially the copts and the jews.

    Previous administrations did little to force the kind of reforms that were needed to slowly unscrew the pressure valve in Egypt and give democratic forces the opportunity to organize. This would have at least provided Egypt a chance to develop its democracy and avoid a sudden Islamist takeover. Instead, our president went to Egypt in 2009 and preached a bolshevik revolution.

    Sure, his speech was full of ideas and sloganeering. But when you go to Egypt and say to the people that their leader’s government is illegitimate, it sends them a signal about what you will do – or won’t do – if they rise up. What was needed over the past several years was steadfastness in support of Mubarak along with quiet, sustained and severe pressure – using the billions we send to Egypt as leverage – to force reform.

    Neither Bush nor Obama did this successfully. And so now there’s a new Pharaoh in Cairo Town. And he doesn’t like America. Or Israel. Or Copts. Or any non-muslims, for that matter :)-

  51. @NN

    “”Sandy is correct. The prohibition against eyebrow plucking has nothing to do with divine orders. If you think it does, you don’t know your Islamic studies. Apparently at the time plucked eyebrows were common with hookers and Mohammed didn’t want regular ladies to look like ones.”‘

    where does it say plucking of eyebrwos was prohibited because it was practiceed by hoolers ?

    THese think they are scholars in islam by reading things that are never stated in islam..

    Had you people understood islam you were muslism by now..

    Totally agrees with saudi woman:)

  52. bigstick, get a quran in chronological order, rather than the more normal persian order by length of suras. You will find that all this nice bits in the Quran were written in the beginning, when Mohammed had no power. And by the time he has power he is really nasty. from ”no compulsion in religion” to ”Kill all the non-believers”. So the Quran deals with all these controversial bits by inventing the rule of obrigation: when a later verse says something different about the same subject than an earlier verse, the later verse obrigates the earlier verse.
    You can scrap about 40% of the Quran that way.
    Unfortunately those are all the nice bits.

    And shaving everything and then suddenly stop at the eyebrows is plain silly. Shows how this rule was definitely made up by some obsessed mere human male. One chromosome away from a chimpanzee…

  53. If another Pharaoh takes the chair in Cairo Town, he must be aware of his fate.

  54. Harry…

    a lot of Egypt’s revenue is due to tourism. I can’t wait to see how this will be affected.

  55. I can’t imagine the Egyptians being so stupid as to kill their major source of income. Religious zealots yes, but not the normal, rational, intelligent people.

  56. Aafke…

    I think what will happen is that there will be this illusion of freedom for the tourists. They will have to walk within tightly defined borders, but outside of that will be very different.

    What makes me pissed off is the copts will get slaughtered in this. The Middle East is such an important place for Christians in terms of being homelands for many. They will not have the ability to stay in their ancestral homelands and IMO that is criminal. They have been there for centuries…it is their HOME. It sickens me because if the situation was reversed…Muslims would have a fit!

  57. Also the Copts are interesting, their language is the only link we have to demotic Egyptian.
    But I agree, they will get it in the neck for sure now.
    And so will women. let’s see, that’s 50% + 10%=60% of the Egyptian population sure to get screwed/killed. By the religion of peace.

  58. I agree with NN…point to one Islamic country that has benefited it’s citizens simply by being “islamic”? As proud as I was of egyptians for taking this step towards a new life…there is no way that muslims in general will allow anything but islamic governance to rule their country…even to their own detriment. For those who do understand the consequences of living in an islamic government…those emigrate to other countries…and that is happening more and more these days.

    It would be interesting to see what would happen if egyptians or saudis etc started emigrating en masse (I have no idea how easy or hard that would be for them..just thinking out loud)…if their govt’s would then counter act by making emigration forbidden (even though hadith says to emigrate if the place you live is not sharia which case…all islamic countries do not qualify). Then again…in order to emigrate, the country your headed for has to have the desire to see a huge influx of muslims settle in their borders. How likely is that?

  59. I predict that the very first step that is taken in egypt once the dust settles and the ruling party take control is to limit the rights and freedoms of egyptain women…and possibly to reinstate the hijab as law. Look towards any muslim country that has extremists take over and women are the first to be affected.

    Generally…the rights of muslim women are restricted while the rights of muslim men are expanded in these sorts of islamists situations. God help the egyptian women if he cares at all about them.

  60. As much as I HATE linking to sites that are not mainstream or neutral I am linking to this site because after searching for more than 30 minutes I cannot find a site that shows the photographic progression of how Egypt has moved from a freer, more equal society to what it is becoming today.

    Please don’t get into a huge huff about the website. If I could have found a neutral one with these photos I would have linked it instead. But I thought the photos over a span of 45 years spoke volumes about the slow march toward conservatism.

  61. @Oby…nope never said i was or wasn’t an “islamist”..but hey i will tell you straight up that i 100% support sharia just to clear things up.

    “And IMO if you were a Muslim who really believed the “no compulsion” ruling then you would not a government of any kind that discriminates against ANY ONE”… like you care what type of muslim i am or am not..
    “What makes me pissed off is the copts will get slaughtered in this. The Middle East is such an important place for Christians in terms of being homelands for many. They will not have the ability to stay in their ancestral homelands and IMO that is criminal. They have been there for centuries…it is their HOME. It sickens me because if the situation was reversed…Muslims would have a fit!”
    …sorry to burst your bubble…..palestine.

    “point to one Islamic country that has benefited it’s citizens simply by being “islamic”?”..saudi..hands down…

  62. oby…the one glaring thing that always stands out from these sorts of pics is that…while the hijab is reintroduced as an islamic “must”….muslim men are still “allowed” to wear western clothing and look very unmuslim like. I find this really prevalent in societies like america. The women wear hijab or sometimes even the full covering etc…while their husbands wear jeans and tshirts. Once again…why is it the women that must externally show that they are muslim while the muslim men can go incognito?

  63. Agree with Coolred’s comments.

    Oby, there is nothing in that interview which is radical and as far as I am aware it is correct in what they say about Egypt’s history.

  64. @Aafke-Art

    Don’t worry I am familar with the fact that the quran is organized by the length of the sura verses the chronological aspect. I am also familar with the sword verse 9.5

    “ But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    “sword verses” refer specifically to “four types of people against whom the Muslims are obligated to fight: 9:5 refers to fighting the idolaters; 9:29 refers to fighting the Scriptuaries until they pay the poll tax; 9:73 refers to fighting those who outwardly appear as Muslims but who actually oppose Muhammad and the community of Islam; and 49:4 refers to fighting Muslims who unjustly oppress other Muslims.”

    What I was trying get across to farah shakeel, is that he is lying if he says there is no compulsion. There is compulsion to the extremes, He is lying when he says there is no compulsion. Sick of hearing the lie. There is compulsion. You will adhere to the tenets of Islam or you will die or pay a tax (dhimmitude). For muslims there is stoning, lashings, jailing, fining, or beheading to keep you in line. This is what muslims call happiness, I call it hell.

  65. bella…”saudi, hands down”. Care to elaborate. I’m sorry but when a govt fires on it’s own people for assembling to show discontent, or when it restricts half the population and infantisizes them, and when it takes away the populations right to freely elect it’s own leader, and when it unjustly inflicts punishment on victims etc etc etc…I’m not sure it’s a “hands down” give in. So please…elaborate and clarify your stance.

  66. Bella vita, The fact that Saudi is fairly prosperous (except for an upper class which is filthy stinking rich because of the money they stole from the rest of Saudi) is solely because of the little bit of luck of oil. And there is still abject poverty and people die of the cold and the heat.

    If Saudi Arabia had no oil it would be as poor and backward as Yemen.
    Or worse.
    KSA would be a desperate third world country. The Saudi people would be starving, wearing rags and we kuffaar, from the Wicked West, would be sending them much needed food and help.
    Complete segregation would be impossible because women would have to do some sort of work to keep the family alive, although Saudi Arabia would be so poor and undeveloped that many would die regularly in famines.

  67. And, Bellavita, as in other Islamic countries, without oil and ruled by Sharia, Saudi Arabia without oil would always remain a third world country, inhabited by a few ragged beggars, who produce nothing, learn nothing, and think nothing.
    Islam is a static religion, it imposes non-growth on any country is infects. Look at Iran, very rich prospoerous country, Sharia and the Mullahs ceo in and what is Iran now? Poor backwards and the people are suppressed.

  68. Bella vita:

    I’ll add more to Aafke-Art assessment. The United States actually went over there and drilled it for them, set them up and gave them money for it. If it wasn’t for the US they would still just be like Yemen.

    My understanding is that if the expats were to leave Saudi would go under in a hurry as most (not all) Saudi’s are lazy and incompetent. They see working as being below them. The ones who are coming up who will be able to run things due to fact that they are actually applying themselves are the women. Still the country would collaspe without expats. How sad is this. The men aren’t even adult enough to do the work. No wonder they have delicate egos they are spoiled brats.

  69. big stick, good point, the millions of expat workers is what keep KSA going. Take away especially the ones with knowledge and training and KSA would probably go down the drain right now, even with the oil.

    And forget about the women, not if you follow sharia, women should be locked up in a dark room, preferable without windows, in the middle of the house and pray. They shouldn’t be outside, doing a good job, earning money and becoming self aware, and gaining self respect? That is só un-Islamic!

  70. Aafke-Art:

    I know that is the beauty (pun intended) of it. The ones that could actually do something will never be allowed. Islams version of shooting itself in the foot.

  71. Bella Vita I really don’t care what type of muslim you are though I would have to say you seem to have strong salafist leanings. I believe you once said you are in Australia…it must be hard for you if you think Sharia is the way to go to be living there. And the only way anyone would care about what type of Muslim you or anyone else is is because with your attitude (and I can only judge by what you write here) I can’t imagine you are the type that would be able to mix well with nonmuslims and truly believe in the no compulsion thing…if you did then you WOULD care that everyone Muslim or non were treated equally under the law.

    Palestine…ummm…you proved my point. Muslims have been arguing about it forever. Yes, what I said is right..if it happened to Muslims they would have a fit. My point exactly. They are happy to do it to others but god forbid it is done to them.

    You think Saudi is the ultimate islamic country? That pretty much says it all about where you stand.

  72. Bella Vita…

    I guess it is OK to assume that if shairia is applied in Egypt and the copts have dhimmitude status it would be OK for the west to do the same thing to the MUslims. They would be classified second class citizens. Seems fair.

  73. Actually èverything they have in Saudi Arabia is owed to the developed countries of the west. They don’t produce anything in KSA. I mean oil comes out of the ground but they don’t make stuff, they buy their cars, their clothes, their cosmetics, their machines, their knowledge, their workers, their airplanes, their weapons, their health care, their education, even their food from other countries. Take away oil now and millions of Saudis would be dead by t

    Because religious law has crippled the country, destroyed it’s original cultures, stunted and blunted the minds of the Saudi people, and they’ve made 50% of their people into slaves.

    Saudi Arabia is a poor country. Poor in culture, poor in personal development, poor, poor, poor, poor in everything, except they have lots oil.

    So what’s the stamp of a successful country? Or rather what’s the stamp of an unsuccessful country?
    What are the characteristics of Saudi Arabia?
    Let’s see:
    -High unemployment
    -Lack of human rights
    -poor education system
    -poor health system
    -poor infrastructure, like big ”modern” cities drowning in 2 inches of rain
    -no reliable statistics
    -child marriage

    Where is Saudi Arabia successful? The Saudi system is under performing. Saudi Arabia after 60 years of oil production and taking in gazillions of dollars, Saudi Arabia should be a world leader in many area’s. Instead they are near the bottom in everything.

  74. I always thought the dhimmi tax was to compensate for religiously obligatory zakat. Were the non-muslims unfairly taxed, or was it a legitimate way of contributing to the community? I’m not up on my economic history, Anyone care to elaborate?

  75. @Aafke, I agree with most of your assessment, but like other “poor” countries, Saudi Arabia is rich in hospitality. I truly experienced that there. Just like very poor people in South America, who will literally give you the shirt off their back, same in Saudi. Whether they could afford it or not. That is one beautiful tradition unaffected by modernity.

  76. Kristine…they will give you the shirt off their backs (and I agree with that statement) but not the keys to the car to their women. Interesting.

  77. @Coolred, yes, it is so frustrating. I don’t get it. The only reason I can think of is that the menfolk are scared as hell. I have 3 sister-in-laws that are tough as nails and won’t take no from anyone, including authority figures. I learned from them. My background is from a Mid-West, Scandinavian, following-the-rules-tradition.

  78. @ Kristine:

    Here is one paper on it. I like it because it brings in our mentality today. Once you read it you will understand that this was the same mentality of the people whose planes were hyjacked in 9/11.

    My belief is mental disarmament is dangerous activity.

    There is a lot more on out there though.

  79. @Bella

    The only Islamic thing about Saudi is that most of its citizen are Muslims. The way Saudi is governed has nothing to do with Islam. Peel your eyes away from the flag and push “activate” button near your brain.


    “Had you people understood islam you were muslism by now..”

    Had you people learned to spell, you’d come across as having more than one brain cell to rub together. You can go ahead and become a musli. I’ll stay with cereal. Thanks anyway.

    For the pleasure of your heart:

    As for removing the hair from between the eyebrows, it is lawful, because it is not part of the eyebrows. But as for plucking the eyebrows, it is forbidden and not permissible in Islam, according to the Hadith: ‘May Allah’s curse be inflicted upon women who pluck their eyebrows, and women hired to do this.’

    What is prohibited is an-Nams, which denotes removing the hair of the eyebrows by plucking in order to make it thin. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have cursed both women who do the plucking and those who seek to have it done. (Reported by Abu Dawud)”

    Elaborating on this, we’d like to cite for you the following Fatwa issued by Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, who states:

    “The word used in the Hadith is nams in Arabic, which means plucking the eyebrows. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) considered plucking as distorting the creation of Allah. This was the practice resorted to by prostitutes in the time of pre-Islamic jahiliyya (ignorance) and it is still used by women of loose morals. ”

    I love the consistency in these stories. So eyebrow shaping is distorting creation. But circumcision, kohl (for men!!), perfume, that is all totally kosher. Ha.

  80. “The way Saudi is governed has nothing to do with Islam.”

    Sure, it’s governed by a tyrannical monarchy, but their basis for power is Islam, isn’t it?

  81. There are so many comments I couldn’t read them all. I thought the post was so funny, though he didn’t cover bleaching. I was mildly shocked the first time I saw a woman with bleached hair on the brows. I had to ask a co worker. What the?????? The rich clients I saw not only plucked but dyed and shaved. Not sure about the extentions. Nails were done nicely. The poorer they were the more adherent they were.

  82. @JC

    I’m not sure what you mean by “basis of power”. As far as I know, AlSaud’s basis of power is that they won a few battles a century ago, named the country after them and decided to run it as their family business, with family members as managers and the rest of the citizenry as labor. Did you mean something else?

  83. Zaheerhusain Khan – There is no compulsion of religion meaning you can’t force someone to become Muslim. When you’re part of a religion there are rules and regulations you’re supposed to follow. I don’t see people in the court system worrying about eyebrows because some of the laws are meant to be dealt with on a lower level (self, family, friends advising or what not) but the speaker is telling us as a da’ee that eyebrow plucking is forbidden by Allah. That is all.

    If one is to believe that the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wasalaam) was indeed a prophet then of course they would take his words to heart. It is people of desires who would rather listen to what they want over what their own religion’s edicts say. This applies to Muslims and non-Muslims who don’t care to practice their own religions or who pick and choose as though it is a buffet!

    You might say, “Why should God care about something so small?” I could similarly say, “If it’s such a small thing then why are you having trouble complying?” And if you’re not Muslim then how can you consider it so small yet at the same time consider it so important that you need to talk about it?

    The rules are the rules and the compliance in these things is on the people themselves.

    I could pull out TONS of biblical rules that seem strange. Just because you don’t practice them doesn’t mean they’re not there. In fact, your not practicing them (if you’re Christian) is essentially you saying you know better than God who made the rules. When you say, “Times have changed…” It is you saying God didn’t know how to make His word timeless. Astaghfirullah. If what you’re practicing isn’t timeless then you need to find something that is because God is perfect and all-knowing.

  84. And to the sister who said men shouldn’t tell women how to dress – The Prophets were all men and that includes Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wasalaam). Who are we to say men can’t say things that have to do with women when God chose men to convey these messages originally and furthermore made men guardians and protectors of women.

    I’m not saying women can’t also learn and teach such things (and they do) but the women largely speak to all female audiences which is why you don’t find them as much on youtube.

    Just like this guy is giving advice to the women in general I can similarly (and do) give advice to my husband about religious matters pertaining to men. Just because you don’t see me doing it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

  85. Quote: ” La ikraha fid deen ” means there is no compulsion in Islam,so
    you can never impose anything on any one , neither in religion nor any of its component like hijab . Educate but every thing is on individuals free will , no one has any right to force any one , it is un islamic and whatever is un islamic is kufr.

    Zaheer and Fahaah, as I have said here, as others have said, Islam is all about compulsion. Your dear prophet said, according to strong hadith “Kill those that change their religion” (he meant ‘islamic religion’ I think). You Muslims say stupid things like that knowing there are apostasy laws in most Islamic societies, so please learn and be quiet in the future. There are about two dozen regular infidels that know more about Islamic texts than you. Abolish all stupid apostasy and blasphemy laws, then we can talk and you can says things like that without looking like an ass.

    As to “his entire life of the Rasool e Kareem (saaws) never forced the deen on any one , his entire life spent in educating and persuading” — yes, when he was not raiding, plundering, killing, enslaving, torturing and raping — and making up silly rules rules about eyebrows,\.

    Why oh why couldn’t Mohammad have said, instead of “May Allah’s curse be inflicted upon women who pluck their eyebrows”, something like “May Allah’s curse be upon Muslims that persecute unbelievers” or “May Allah’s curse be upon men who treat women like animals.” But no, Allah only worries about the important stuff.

    The Copts are screwed. So is Egypt. There all will suffer and when it gets worse, the Muslims answer to their problems will be “more Islam” – and it will get worser (not a word, but appropriate).

  86. Dear God, save us from reverts!

  87. Stacey…

    Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem riding an ass (donkey). He is supposed to come again for those who believe. Should we expect him to parade down mainsteet on a donkey? Or would it be more appropriate considering the time and place we live in that he would come in a car or other vehicle? My point is religions change with the times…they modernize the details although the principals and message are timeless. Islam is frozen in the past…actually there are those that want to leave it frozen in the past and others who want to bring it into the modern age. You might want to think about why not on islamic country (strictly Islamic) is prosperous…most are poor and uneducated. Meanwhile those that want a good education leave these countries.

  88. Jay…if the command to “kill those who change their religion” was generic…meaning from any religion to any religion, then all the convert/reverts to islam should be killed as they are changing their religion. Since that would not make much sense from muhammed’s point of view…then it is assumed changing from islam to something else is the one that requires death.

    There is apparently no compulsion to BE muslim but there sure is compulsion to STAY muslim. I do believe that command alone should send any muslim with an ounce of doubt about islam screaming for the hills. What sort of compassionate loving merciful god demands death for something so arbitrary. If god doesnt need us to worship him (the belief is that we need god) then why would he care, and punish so severely, for abandoning islam specifically…if he doesnt require our worship or need anything from us? Let us abandon our religion..or change it…or mix it up…whatever. It’s our sin…right? Such a petty jealous god.

    Do you know what happens to a god that isn’t worshipped? He is forgotten…and how do you prevent a god from being forgotten? Forbid muslims from leaving islam on pain of death. 😉

  89. @Coolred38,

    “What sort of compassionate loving merciful god demands death for something so arbitrary. If god doesnt need us to worship him (the belief is that we need god) then why would he care, and punish so severely, for abandoning islam specifically.”

    The God of Islam and other Abrahamic religions is not a compassionate God. He setup a place called hell for none believers (not just killing on Earth). The none believers, who account for most of humanity, will suffer torture for eternity.

    I know this is basic stuff that everyone knows about and it is just silly to bring it up. However, It is really puzzling how the average believer would be disquieted if our laws allowed the torture of convicts. These same people have no problem in believing in a deity which promises internal torture for such silly things like betting on the wrong God or Religion from among the thousands out there.

    I know there are some smart commentators here who I believe are moral compassionate people that also believe in this torturous deity. It will be interesting if one of them can chime in and explain how they reconcile that with their seemingly superior personal morals!!!

  90. @ MoQ

    I can’t help you here since I don’t believe in the Abrahamic god. The god who can’t defeat an iron chariot, takes bets with the devil (Job), can’t figure out which creation story to go with, who is offended by his own creation as he requires the to cover, has more than one set of 10 commandments, changes his story to help his needs, who murders the entire population of the world, cities, countries for all those wicked men, women, children, infants and heck animals, the list goes on.

    So nope sorry can’t help you.

  91. @ MoQ

    Maybe someone could explain to me why the Abrahamic god is so incompetent, moody, vengeful, hateful and less than omnipetent Anyone?

  92. @MoQ.

    Oh I forgot. Silly me also forgetful. Such a human trait.

    I know MoQ is sitting waiting for a great response to this as I am. Anyone? Anyone at all?

  93. @NN

    I believe JC is stating that Saudi is using Islam. The quran, hadith, sunni as the means to keep their power. Like all religions they are tools for the political minded who have an agenda for controlling the populace. Yes, they are using Islam as a basis of power. They draw from the text the necessary bits(there is a whole lot of bits in the text to help them) needed to keep people in line, censor information to the populace and inflict pain and death on those who question or use them as examples to ensure compliance.

    Haven’t you figured it out yet that, that is the purpose for religion. Political gain. Start reading all the horrors of these books. The hatred of others, bigotry, prostitution (sex slaves), murder, suffering, deception, the list goes on. Why do you think the new testament was written and codified when it was. For the purposes of political gain for a Roman Emperor.

    When a religious person tells me that they are on high moral ground I have a hard time not laughing my ass off. I have read the books there is no moral ground. Their moral ground is a fairytale constructed by cherry picking the good parts and not addressing the bad parts.

  94. I really enjoy the occasional comment by a truly brainwashed religiously programmed revert.
    I think it is important that rational people get a reminder and an example every now and then to proof how good religions are in enslaving and dumbing down the human brain.

  95. Bigstick, the Abrahamic religions are specifically constructed to support political power. From the start, at least Christianity and Islam were constructed to support and validate earthly rulers, it was always the plan behind these religions.

  96. oops I had a typo. Should read … the average believer would be “disgusted”

    @bigstick, My experience is the believers do not ask themselves some basic questions about their faith. I think we should always challenge them to think. Most will not reply to our questions. The ones that do will use intellectual acrobatics and never really provide an answer. with a small minority questions like this will set them searching for a good answer and hopefully they develop better believes.

    That is the group I hope to reach. Lights will turn on for some.

  97. Moq…I should have put scare quotes around my…loving merciful etc god statement. I do not believe this to be true..hence my reasons for no longer declaring belief in such a contrived creation.

  98. I doubt very much that there will be any tourism to speak of in Egypt or in any of the Arab world given the latest Islamist developments. Westerners will say: Fine, if they want an Islamic government with sharia that will curtail the rights of Muslims and nonMuslims alike, they will have to do it without Western aid funds or tourist money. Why would anyone visit a country that is infamous for its men harassing, groping women and even attacking them, whether veiled or not? Remember all of the female journalists who were attacked, never mind the locals?

    Naturally, as human rights erode even more in all of these countries many will want to emigrate. The most educated and progressive will leave and the countries will descend into the backwardness of the past.

    Keeping things natural is Islamic? That pontificating dude looks just like an organ-grinder’s monkey:

    He could use a little plucking himself. His ideas are really remarkable. Why go back to the dark ages? Is childbirth in a modern hospital “natural”? Is driving a car or using machines? Are vaccines or medicines “natural”? Is frozen are prepared food natural? Is anything made of chemicals natural?

    Every Arab woman I have ever seen wears a pound of caked on makeup, lots of sparkly eyeshadow, heavily outlined, dark coloured lips with sparkly lip shine. They seem to apply makeup over makeup and do not appear clean their faces all that often. So many have terrible grey, pock-marked skin. Is all of that natural? Removing hair in other regions makes a woman resemble a pre-pubescent child. Maybe that is what the objective is since Muslim males prefer them very young?

    The prophets chose themselves. How does anyone know what this allah wants much less what any god wants? All religious literature was written by men—males! All 3 Abrahamic faiths are very anti woman, especially Islam.

  99. Red, here’s to us….

    I take it that Abu is not in the crowd.

  100. PS: Mario Lanza was my Mom’s favorite singer.

    I watched the video again. Actually NOBODY drinks in it. Instead of “Drink Drink Drink” it should be “Wave your mug around and make a lot of noise”. The video is therefore halal, and old Abu could have gone to the event – and nobody would have recognized him without the silly cap (might have even been able to pinch that hot waitress!).

  101. Funny video Jay, like a beer drinking (or rather waving) tenor-flashmob!
    But Jay, you know music is haram, and what’s worse, they are all having a good time! Fun! Fun is haram! How dare these kuffaars have fun!

    Prosciutto, *He could use a little plucking himself.*
    Snort! But we should admire his effort in making himself look silly and ugly. This way he can hold ridiculous speeches without women swooning over his pretty looks.
    You see, women have to cover their sin-inducing flesh and hair, and men do their part by wearing really silly beards and ugly ankle length western shirts which for some reason they call ”traditional Arab”.

    Women can remove hair on their chin because that will make them look like men and that is haram. Also, if a woman’s husband does not like her 1inch eyebrows then it is permitted according to some Islamic experts. Because the wishes of men supersedes everything else.

  102. I have to agree with proscuitto on this one..I have always thought that the arab female obsession with removing body hair (from the neck down since eyebrows are forbidden…though threading is very very popular..hmmm) makes them appear youthful. Is that the point? god creates humans with hairy bodies…arab women (im sure other cultures but this is the one I know that do do it) spend copious amounts of money to remove this hair…BUT eyebrow hair is off limits…cause that just ain’t right. O_O does not compute.

    Jay…Im not much of a drinker I would fit right in as the designated driver for these beer mug wavers. Too many alkies in my family…no interest to become a statistic on my family tree. Interestingly…when I gave up all religious practice and faith…many many people I know (muslims included) claimed that I can “now” drink alcohol, eat pork, pursue horizontal interests etc to my hearts content…because apparently I have no moral guidance now so who the hell cares. Whatever. I look these muslims in the eye (the ones I know who already enjoy such activities..ex included) and say…had no interest in it before I became muslim…nor while I was muslim…and unless old(er) age holds some secrets Im not aware of yet…I doubt I will suddenly start hanging out in bars, engaging in a more reckless sexual lifestyle (perks Im sure but just not for me) or gorging on the forbidden swine…tho a good pork sandwich can’t be passed up now and then. 🙂

    I am a sinner…just not a religious hypocritical one now. There, I have confessed…I feel better now. 😉

  103. @ Aafke-Art,

    It always amazes me that men can cancel out God/Allah’s instructions when it comes to women. Just goes to show you that man created religion.

  104. bigstick, did you hear the latest fatwa? High heel are forbidden for women.
    Unless in the home when their husband likes them to wear high heels…

    It has a kind of fascination.
    Especially when one recalls there are still some other details of life which could do with a resounding fatwa them, like child marriage, forced marriage, denying marriage, the merciless harassment of women in Saudi society, the impossibility for women of getting a job, The problem of not being able to drive. I think they could forbid lashings as that is too utterly barbaric, and what about the Mahram system? The system which denigrates all Saudi women to the status of slavery? Why is all that less important than a few errant hairs on the face or the fun of a couple of serious stiletto heels?

  105. Oops! Answered myself for the very last question, stiletto’s are fun, of course they have to be forbidden!

  106. Aafke-Art:

    I did read it. Crap is what the technical jargon as of late so that is what it is. Crap.

    I swear muslim men (for the most part) are the biggest scaried cats of women in the world. The entire religion insults men and enslaves women. It degrades men to mere instinctually animals. In fact animals have a better life and act more humane.

    I find that those who are the biggest bullies are the most insecure.

    I still like the fatwa that uncovered women causes earthquakes? Wow. The power of women.

    Absolute Crap.

  107. I think we have to keep in mind that any bozo that can get someone to listen to them can issue a “fatwa”. The fact is- at salons all across the country you can get your eyebrows professionally groomed, manicures/pedicures, hair colouring hairextensions etc. And there are shoestores full of high heels. Whatever some bozo might have said, there is no implementation in any way restricting high heels or eyebrow work.

  108. Clerics like this guy preach it and there is some segment of the population that will listen and follow. If they want to not pluck brows etc. and follow the book that way then that is fine. The problem is that it is used to beat other muslims over the head and shame them into feeling that they are not pious enough. It causes lots of strife and internal doubts…hiding of behavior that is perfectly normal. I mean is it such a crime that women wear high heels or shape their brows? Who the heck is going to see it under all the layers anyway? But if it makes a woman feel feminine why not? All this “you can do it/it is haram” makes people a bit schizoid IMO. For what? Wanting to groom themselves?

    Besides as weird as it might sound I feel a bit uncomfortable with the “remove hair everywhere except eyebrows” because it makes me feel that the women will look too juvenile…like a prepubescent girl. Only woman would have body hair and shape their eyebrows. Maybe they don’t mean it that way and it is for purely cleanliness reasons, but it feels a little unsettling to me.

  109. Red, “pursue horizontal interests” you say?

    Would that be…
    table top design?
    equilibrium physics?
    angular longitude measurement instrumentation?
    I just know I am getting close…

  110. Oby, excuse me but how does harassment lead to “traffic jams”? (from your link!). What do they do in Arabia – drive by harassment? car-to-car harassment? I remember the “cruising 60s” but that was different (pointless, but fun, in a strange retarded adolescent way!)

  111. AA, what gets me is that Muslims will take some minor hadith or story about their prophet and argue over every detail and word and then try to apply it to some similar condition in the modern world (as per Abu, Stacey, MNM and others above).

    Yet at the same time they ignore the hundreds of stories of attacks, plunder, murder, enslavement, torture and rape – – found in the same sources.

    So we have Muslims that fret over eyebrows or highheels on women, but have no interest in the story of a woman being pulled apart by camels or having her belly split open for saying a few words about a certain prophet.

    It is a surreal mentality that defies logic.

  112. Jay…you forgot planking. 😉

  113. HI Sandy:

    Religion to me has nothing to do with God and everything to do with control. But I think you have already figured that out about me at this point. My belief is that every religion was written for the purposes of political gain to ensure that a select few would substantial gain from it. However, people do listen to this insane stuff (eyebrows, high heels, earthquakes) and if others are not railing against it, it can become the norm. I am not saying there are not good reasonable people who are religious and I count you as one of them. Again, for me religion has nothing to do with faith or god it is meant to be used to control the masses nothing more.

    I think there is a famous quote that was wrongly attributed to Joseph Goebbels, but I think it fits, ‘If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”

    Religion to me is the biggest lie ever told that people have come to believe in.

    In 1952, L. Ron Hubbard wrote a book about Scienctology. Today there is a church of Scienctology. Cruises for those who follow it. Scientology is a new growing religion for many. Do I find this to be divine. No, no more than any other religion.

    Just so you know, I also pick on other religions as well. I especially dislike organized religions. Government control to institute and enforce religious standards is organized religion as well as far as I am concerned.

    Wars have far less power than words. Words have power that transcend to a belief that will shape and craft future generations. When it is said that the “pen is mightier than the sword,” such statement couldn’t be any truer. So in the interest of humanity, it is best to ensure that what is penned/stated which goes against common sense, the essence of humanity, and reason, has a counter argument. For silence is acceptance.

    You are right that anyone can issue a fatwa to anyone who will listen. The question is how many of those who listen will be swayed by this to institute it as a law or how many will began to follow it. Look at Egypt today and Egypt 40 years ago. Hugh difference and all because of what people stated or wrote, those who were swayed by it and then allowed to implement it. When you are taught from birth to fear something, it tends to stay with you and shape you and rarely is it for the better.

  114. I had shirts with huge cleavage for a week last summer, and at the end I checked for earthquake news all over the world. Nothing happened…
    Scientific proof that women showing cleavage do not cause earthquakes.

    I’m sure there is a hdiith somewhere that high heels are from shaytan, because women can use them to step on men’s toes, and make scratches on men’s cars….

  115. Jay, I think it’s more fun for the men to go on and on about which hairs you should pluck and which you shouldn’t, and how women’s shoes should look, and what is allowed after all if the man prefers it, and in which room a woman should confine herself in the house (in the middle without windows) etc.
    Mohammed’s triumphs are important, but his triumph of sending an assassin to sneak in and rip apart a female poet whom he didn’t like while she is breastfeeding, or having a very old lady and tribal leader torn apart by camels, that’s just small details. or as Mohammed himself said: ”No two goats would lock horns” over such minor stuff as women being cowardly murdered.
    Of course these stories always come in handy when modern people need to be assassinated as a glowing example of exceptional virtuous Islamic behavior. And maybe they do this while we are not listening. But on the whole Muslims are clever enough to keep this out of conversations with non-believers about the peacefulness of Islam.

  116. Speaking of religion causing harm. . .

    Another day, another bomb, Muslim on Muslim slaughter in Afghanistan. At last count there are 63 people dead, including women and children, with countless injured; and on the holiest day of Ashura too; ghe day when Shia beat themselves to bloody pulps in the name of religion. Poor, begging Karzai has to curtail his visit to London and return to Kabul. He wants at least 10 more years of support from the West to the tune of 10 BILLION a year. A “bargain” since we currently give 16 billion.

    I remember a meeting that I had a few years ago with a Sunni ksa journalist. His position was that all Shia are heretics and needed to be eliminated. They seem to be working on that all over the Muslim world. More of the same to come.

    Here is an interesting report on “Intolerance, Prejudice and Discrimination” from Europe in PDF format:

    In brief:

    After statistical testing, three statements were used to produce the anti-Muslim attitudes mean scale (Table 7, items 18 to 20). These cover the general impression that there are too many Muslims in the country, the charge that Muslims make too many demands, and broad-brush criticism of Islam as a religion of intolerance. Four further statements were surveyed in a random half of the sample. These cover a positive attitude that sees Muslims as an enrichment and the idea that there are great cultural differences between the majority society and Muslims, especially concerning attitudes towards women. We also surveyed the idea that Muslims generally support and condone terrorism.

    In most of the countries a majority believe Islam to be a religion of intolerance, with agreement just below 50 percent only in Great Britain and the Netherlands. In almost all the countries more than half of respondents said that Muslims make too many demands; Portugal was the only exception with about one third. The statement that there are too many Muslims in the country is affirmed by just over one quarter in Portugal and by about one third in France. In Germany, Great Britain, Italy and the Netherlands more than 40 percent of respondents complain that there are too many Muslims in their country, in Hungary about 60 percent.

    Interviewees were also asked to respond to four further statements covering perceived cultural differences and supposed affinity of Muslims toward terrorism (Table 7, items 22 to 25). Despite correlating closely with anti-Muslim attitudes these items represent separate constructs and were therefore excluded from the scale measure.

    The figures for those who say that Muslim culture is compatible with their own range from 17 percent in Poland and 19 percent in Germany to about half the population in Portugal and France. A majority of more than 70 percent of European respondents find that Muslim attitudes towards women are incompatible with their own values. Overall in the surveyed countries about one third think that Muslims treat Islamist terrorists as heroes, although somewhat fewer believe that terrorism finds moral support in the Muslim community (ranging from under 20 percent in Germany and the Netherlands to nearly 30 percent in Hungary).

    The scale created from the first three statements clearly illustrates the extent of anti-Muslim attitudes in the studied countries (Figure 5). It is conspicuous that Europeans are largely united in their rejection of Muslims and Islam. The significantly most widespread anti-Muslim attitudes are found in Germany, Hungary, Italy and Poland, closely followed by France, Great Britain and the Netherlands. The extent of anti-Muslim attitudes is least in Portugal. In absolute terms, however, the eight countries differ little in their levels of prejudice towards Muslims.

    As all Hell breaks loose in the ME and N. Africa these attitudes will be underscored and will increase not only in Europe but all over the world.

  117. Prosciutto, Sam Harris makes some very good point about Muslims not understanding a civil society, and how can they, when they have been brought up to try to emulate a man who send out raiding parties, enslaved and raped, send out assassins to kill innocent people who did no harm to him?

  118. Prosciutto,

    Thanks for sharing the report on Intolerance. Very informative!
    US is finally awakening too ….. slowly but surely …

    State Rep. Womick (TN) calls for purging military of Muslim Americans. If one is educated about Islam and its theology as this politician obviously is, this is the first common sense solution that needs to happen to address fighting the extremists and keeping US safe.

  119. @ Harry

    This is where I now disagree. I firmly believe in confronting theology on its make believe merits, on enlightening people, bringing up science to confront religions, bring out the contradictions, bring out the complete and utterly unbelievable stance of a god written book that which was written by man. I however believe that when you start pulling people out of making a living for their family, segregating them from society and keeping them from engaging with the rest of the populations you create an extremism that is countered by extremism. Thus you will have violence because you have now gone beyond being tolerate to intolerate. You are thereby no better than the people you purport to be against. That is my stance.

    It is one thing to tackle the theology, to question, to debate, to stand in opposition to the theology, to enact laws that stand tough on gender discrimination, sexual orientation discrimination, absolutely oppose gender segregation, ensure freedom of speech and expression, to impliment tough jail sentences on the religious inflicting their brand of justice on others, etc. It is another to shakle humans and torment them in their loss of jobs, community and country when for the most part they are just trying to live a descent life, educate their children and get on with their lives. Remember the governments can limit how free religion practices can be if the religion practice is detrimental to society it can limit that aspect. Such limitations are women whose husband’s die where they were required to throw themselves in the prye, human sacrifices, polygomy and other aspects that create undue society problems for the country.

    You cannot paint all muslims with such a brush. There are many who like christians or jews are in name only or look at the text then will take those elements out of it that enhance their lives leaving the rest behind. Just think in the old testament children who were unruly could be killed by the parents. How often is this done in the name of religion today?

    Remember one form of extremism is countered by another form of extremism in order to balance the situation to something more moderate and livable. In getting that balance it can be extremely violent, do we really want to go down this path? I for one don’t think so.

  120. I agree with bigstick, you cannot arbitrarily target people on what religion they belong too. in that case you should ”purge” the Christians too, some Christian leaders in America have been making speeches and comment in recent years which are as bad as any Al Qaida speech. You cannot discriminate people based on religion.

  121. @Bigstick, thank you for that comment.

  122. BigStick.

    I,too, would agree with you, but there is a problem. What can you say when you see a good, moderate Muslim that will quote the Quran and hadith to you one minute, then deny their message and impact the next? It is disconcerting.

    What is one to believe when a Muslim will not condemn horrible deeds done by Mohammad, written in texts (by Muslims!) and which texts that Muslims had just referred to to support his/her position? What you usually get is an “out of context” or “bad translation” excuse (or one of a dozen other common excuses). You can be sure any description of those same deeds, if done by an infidel, would result in immediate and harsh condemnation.

    In every case I have probed, a Muslim will, if compelled to choose between Mohammad and Western-Judeo-Christian values, he or she will choose Mohammad, either by affirmation or by silence. So, unlike in the West, killing is not really wrong, depending on who is doing it to whom.

    This can only mean there is a serious moral disparity between Muslims and non-Muslims. Are values are different. If we can’t find common moral grounds, then there is no hope and bad times are coming. yes they are. We are doomed.

  123. are = our

  124. @Jay

    Before I answer, I would like you to define Judeo-Christian values to me.

  125. Yes, what are ”judeo/Christian values”??? If you ask me they are on the whole the same as ”Muslim values”.

  126. Most people who believe in ……. (insert religion of your choice here)… are normal decent people. Despite whatever evil is larded through their religious texts. They may attribute their morals to …….( insert religion religion of your choice here), but usually modern people in developed countries have progressed far beyond the morals as taught in the books of …..(insert religion of your choice here) which is why in the developed world, where religions don’t have power, they have to interpret the writings of …… (insert religion of your choice here) metaphorically, so that they adjust, so the religion can be politically correct.

    I think most humans are naturally good. I think a lot of people are religious because they think that as they are good already they must be religious. And so if they read evil stuff in their holy book their brain closes down and they think they must be interpreting it wrong.

    You cannot ever single people out because of their religion!
    It is wrong, unfair, and a very bad, stupid and contemptible thing to do.
    Yes, religions do it, and that is another proof they are bad for humanity. But you loose the high ground if you stoop down to the same contemptible tactics.

    The one thing which keeps civilization and humanity safe is to keep religions curtailed. And stop give them this traditional and mistaken measure of ”respect”.
    But freedom of religion, even religions you don’t like, secures everybody’s safety in the end. Even the rational people.
    The founding fathers understood this, and that is why America is the only country blessed with an iron clad constitution, guaranteeing freedom of (and from) religion.

  127. @ Jay

    I wrote this on another post on America Bedu:

    “Religion isn’t bad it is a written book. It is how it is applied. Good men can take a religious book and do good things and bad do bad. Yes, both will say that they did it in the name of the creator. Hopefully, you will excuse me when I say that God had nothing to do with it, humanity had everything to do with it. Humanity is capable of greatness, genorosity, compassion, and spirituality. It is also capable of great destruction and hate. I guess you could say that religion is like a gun. Neither one will kill someone on its own but put into the wrong hands it can be lethal. It can also be used to keep peace but there is always some threat such as soul goes to hell or a bullet. For those who use it as a private matter and don’t inflict their views on others through government control, oppressive means, apartheid, or death, I have no problems with it. But I dislike people who stick there head in the sand to the atrocities outlined in all these books and make excuses for them. Try to justify murder, rape, torture for not believing in Islam, Jewish, Christian or the big bad cause. I dislike people that lie about their religion, cherry pick it as if horrors didn’t exist and that it was and is condoned. I have no problems with Christians as they have faced most of their issues on violence and thrown out the atrocities by not giving it any weight. They have accepted that the doctrine has this violence and it should not be adhered to. They are now going through another transition to level the gender apartheid as a means to stop the violence against women that it causes by putting back aspects of the female contributions that were taken out, hidden or blantantly changed. The fact is that the religion is growing up and letting people be adults in whether they accept it on their terms. I do not believe that God would have anything to do with religion. Religion would sicken god on its inhumanity and this is my view. Faith without reason is blind.

    My belief is anything that calls itself divine deserves great, great scrunity if the hand of mankind touch it. You will excuse me when I state the men are known to become corrupt quite easily once they have assumed power. As far as I am concerned the life and details of Muhammed definitely fits that profile. He goes from peaceful when he has nothing to murderous when he has power. That is the facts laid out in the koran and hadith.


    Here is my response to Jay and Harry:

    The fact is all Abrahamic religions have great atrocities. What I am stating is stop lying about them not being there, take your head out of the sand and admit that the books are filled with hate, horror and destruction. Then tame the damn things but don’t ever lie, hide or feel that your are on a higher moral ground due to your religion because you are not. You just chose not to adhere to the tenets of that religion that is the only difference and many people are equally capable of such an act.

  128. @Aafke … The USA has freedom of religion in the constitution but it certainly plays a big role in how they operate. Listen to the hoopla about whether or not a Mormon can be President and the hoopla about Kennedy being the first Catholic, etc. etc. etc.. Americans proclaim loud and clear that they live in a Christian country so religion is always in the forefront of American government and it’s people.

    I agree that all men are basically good and I believe that they do NOT need religion to tell them to be good. I think Islam is a religion based on fear and that fear is ingrained from the first breath. Organized religions have caused so much harm in the world and will continue to cause harm. I want nothing to do with any of them. Islam is the scariest of them all and there’s no doubt about it.

  129. @ Wendy

    The fact that you and many others realize that religion should not be a litimus test for presidency bodes well for us all. Unfortunately many Americans fail to realize that our forefathers specifically stated in the constitution that no such litimus test should ever be used. It is sad that we are backsliding against the vision our forefathers had for this country.

  130. @ Jay

    Once last comment to sum it up. Religion is a tool for politics and control. That is why religion was designed. Should fanatics from any religion be watched? Yes, they should. We have a lot of hindsight to show us the destruction of those who have professed the acts of brutuality to be sanction by God/Allah. Will there alway be fanatics? Yes, there will be. Is it possible we are on an upsurge of religious fanatics? Yes, it is possible. Is it limited to just Muslim at this time? No, it is not. Watch what people are doing, what they are cling to, and you will see that there is a upsurge of religious fanaticism in many religions currently. Why, is this? Because one religious extreme is countered with another form of religious extreme to balance out to a moderate and livable society but getting there may be extremely brutal and violent. The question is, do we want to go through the brutality and violence to get to a moderate and livable society once again? I would for one would rather not.

  131. Good remark, Bigstick – and quite necessary. To me it is more than just “western-Judeo-Christian” values, or maybe the word “traditions” is better. And I am talking about 2400+ years of history but would like to focus on the last few hundred.

    First of all, like it or not, you have the Bible. Unlike the Quran, that focuses on “belief”, the Bible – both OT and NT, focus on sin and redemption. If you read the Bible, you have a good idea of what is the thing called “sin” (Quote: the soul that sinneth shall die). Sins are listed and they are all moral actions, not rituals. In the Bible you will also note that great men commit sin (Adam, Abraham, David, etc…) but they are condemned and are castigated for their transgressions (unlike the Quran in which Mohammad gets a free pass on his evil deeds and where the Muslims is merely required to believe and say a few words. Note that Christianity in particular easily separates itself from government (‘give unto Caesar…’ and ‘My kingdom is not of this world’) and puts the responsibility for actions on the head of the individual.

    This difference is fundamental. However, non-religious traditions are also a very important part, starting with Greece, democracy and the arts. It wasn’t until the late Middle Ages, however, that what I call the Western tradition really took shape, with the renaissance, reformation, counter reformation, the religious wars, the Age of Discovery, the Industrial revolution, the American and French revolutions, the spread of humanism, the fight against slavery, the emancipation of women and emergence of the concept of human rights and equality before the law.

    It has been a long process, not without its problems, but it has resulted in the first truly liberal societies in the human history. I think the basic foundations of this tradition are: 1. freedom of speech, 2. freedom of conscience and religion, 3. economic freedom (to succeed or starve), 4. the concept of equality (legal and personal) and 5. the de facto separation of religion and state.

    On all accounts Islam is lacking in these qualities. Not only that, Muslims everywhere, including some (but not all) on this blog, are calling for those rights to be abridged (in the name of civility or anti-hate dialogue). I would be willing to discuss this in those terms if they would be willing to apologize for Mohammad’s vile actions or for Allah saying that we, non-Muslims, are “lower than animals”. Muslim have to understand that respect is a two-way street, and they haven’t moved an inch to meet these simple demands – much to the contrary: Islam is becoming more intolerant and violent. Read the news.

    So that, BigStick, is what I understand to be “Western Judeo-Christian” values – but note they are not the sole domain of Europe and the West, and are universally recognized as what we call basic “human rights”.

  132. @ Jay

    You have brought up some excellent remarks as well. I cannot get into them tonight as I am now limited on time. So I will address it tomorrow. We both do agree that there is a problem. The question is the way to solve it. That very well may be where we will differ in opinion. Until tomorrow.

  133. @Jay,

    Good comment, however, What you mentioned were not “Western Judeo-Christian” values. They sounded more like Western-Secular Values.

    In reality Judeo-Christian values do not sound much different that Islamic values. They were responsible for crusade wars, prosecution of thinkers, witch trials, etc.

    We agree on a lot except for the fact that you give Christianity and Judaism more credit than they deserve. In fact they were responsible for as much hate and suffering as Islam.

    I want you to think about this, by ignoring the massacre in the OT, are you not acting like the Muslim that provides many excuses for the behavior of the Islamic prophet.

  134. Jay…

    I have never heard you put it this way before. I thought you had some excellent points, some basic truths and I can better understand your POV.

  135. @Wendy,

    “The USA has freedom of religion in the constitution but it certainly plays a big role in how they operate. Listen to the hoopla about whether or not a Mormon can be President and the hoopla about Kennedy being the first Catholic, etc. etc. etc.. ”

    Agreed. In today’s primary election the Mormon background of 2 of the candidates has been an issue. I think this national debate is healthy in purging our politics of religious extremism. The republican party has become a party of radicals and I think they will lose in 2012 precisely because they have been radicalized. Whether it is the religious extreme or uncompromising ideologs of the T-party, the republicans lost the rational center.

    I also predict the 2012 will be the first election where the none religious will be a factor. Not that they have not been in the past, but I think they will form a voting block which will be courted openly by Obama.

    In General I think the country is becoming less religious. The republican party is making a huge strategic mistake by continuing to cater to the religious extremist. If I am correct, that will break the religious undo influence on national politics beyond 2012.

    In any event, time will tell and we can have a nice discussion about it in 1 year 🙂

  136. Part of the hoopla about Mormon candidates is because of the quite recent vote on Prop 8 in California and the either real, or perceived influence of the Mormon church in California politics. It didn’t and doesn’t sit well with many of us.

  137. Jay, the enlightenment was a counter movement to ”Christian Judeo” religion, the adherents of the enlightenment counted on religion being obsolete and gone in a few years. As far as their enlightened ideas and morals and science went they were the opposite of Christianity, and it is on the enlightenment (which it is why it is called the enlightenment) that enabled western society to become the modern developed societies they are now. And those values you count so high are based on the enlightenment, not on Judeo Christian ”tradition”.

  138. Just compare these quotes by important men in their religions who are not denounced as being dangerous, evil causing, nasty bigots by the people who follow their religion (including the ”moderates”), and see how religion speaks even today when it takes it politically correct mask off. Yet we still cannot imprison everybody who subscribes to the religion.

    I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
    -Jerry Falwell

    There will never be world peace until God’s house and God’s people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.
    -Pat Robertson

    The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive
    control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the
    eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant – baptism and holy communion – must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.
    -Gary North

    I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good … Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism.
    -Randall Terry

    We – with God’s help – call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan’s U.S. troops and the devil’s supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
    -Osama Bin Laden edict

  139. It may have been good that this thing happened, the rallying of the believers to vote against proposition 8, it gave a lot of attention to Mormonism, which is crackpot religion, and it makes clear that religions are nasty. At least to the rational thinking people. I think a lot of people, not only atheists, got a wake up call here. the same with documentaries like ”Jesus camp” which highlight the child abuse which is going on in religious communities.
    Same goes for the debacle at the Texas board of education, where the religious right showed their true colors of bigotry and racism, by wanting to re-write American history and replace science with religious mumbo-jumbo.

    I hope a lot of rational thinking people in America are waking up now and will vote to keep the loonies out of government. Which means every single candidate the republicans have put forward until now.

  140. Wendy, I agree that Islam is the nasties of them all. But I think that action should be taken to the infiltration of Saudi funded wahhabbi scholars and imams and books into the country. Islamic schools should be scrutinized for the material they give their kids to read and the teachers should be scrutinized for what they teach. And if they teach evil those are the people and organizations you can target. Close the schools, let children go to public schools. I think religious schools are a pest anyway. And the super religious have a reason to keep their children on special schools: when children come into an open and rational school/university most of them start to think. And evaluate. And that can lead to them having independent thoughts.

    The same for mosques. If an imam preaches against America, women’s rights etc. throw him out. And the same goes for the christian nutters.

    I think one of the root- problems which modern society suffers from at the moment is a totally misguided respect for religions. We need to get that out of people’s minds. Religions should pay tax like everybody else. It’s ridiculous to have these great money making businesses dotting the country and merely because they claim to be serving some invisible unprovable sky-daddy they are suddenly tax-exempt? Ridiculous!

  141. I think the word you guys are trying to say is humanism.

  142. @MoQ

    “What you mentioned were not “Western Judeo-Christian” values. They sounded more like Western-Secular Values.

    In reality Judeo-Christian values do not sound much different that Islamic values. They were responsible for crusade wars, prosecution of thinkers, witch trials, etc.

    We agree on a lot except for the fact that you give Christianity and Judaism more credit than they deserve. In fact they were responsible for as much hate and suffering as Islam.

    I want you to think about this, by ignoring the massacre in the OT, are you not acting like the Muslim that provides many excuses for the behavior of the Islamic prophet.”

    Fucking awesome, thank you 🙂

  143. Mind your language JC.
    It will help make you sound a little bit less teenager

  144. Sam Harris thinks we don’t have to stay awake at night worrying about the Amish. HA!

    Looks like this guy probably got caught ‘Praying while Shiite’

  145. I agree about the schools, Aafke. Unfortunately Canada and USA set that precedence a long, long time ago with Catholic schools and it would be hard to turn back those schools now. Governments could stop all funding but we would still want to make sure the curriculum was up to our standards. I am concerned about our Canadian government bending too far in favour or “religious rights” that is for sure. At least religion doesn’t appear to come into our politics when it comes to who is running for power and what religion they are. Right now we have a religious PM who is trying to put some of his beliefs on us and it’s not good. At least the word “God” is not put into play near as often as in American political stuff.
    MoQ … I hope you are right about religion in America.

  146. “The same for mosques. If an imam preaches against America, women’s rights etc. throw him out. And the same goes for the christian nutters.”


  147. Read this this morning and found it a bit interesting and a bit odd. Thought you guys might find it interesting:

    Atheists Who Go to Church: Doing It for the Children

  148. Oby,

    The study you quoted hit right home! My wife and I are both atheists and have been for a loong loong time. We made sure that all our children attended the synagogue each week and we attended along with them without fail.

    They are all grown-ups now. Our son is now a buddhist and our two daughters are both agnostics. They did this after studying other “belief”
    systems. We all still celebrate both christmas and hannuka in a purely
    “secular” way :)-

  149. oby, that’s funny, that’s exactly what my parents told me: ”You can figure out later for yourself what you want to be”. And I went with all my different friends to their different churches, and read up in the grown up part of the library, and by the time I was 10 I had decided it was all made up. By men.

  150. @Aafke

    I really could give a shit if I sound like a teenager when I’m commenting on a blog. I love using the words I do, and on the occasion I happen to use fuck.

    Thanks for the advice, not needed.

  151. Harry/Aafke…

    That is really interesting to know because when one thinks of athiests one thinks that they avoid church altogether and would, feeling as strongly as they do about god not existing, would not want to present “fairytales” to their kids.

    As per the article, it wan’t a LOT of people who at least on occasion attend church or synagogue etc. but even still it is so interesting to see how some people of an athiest persuasion tackle the God question. Thanks for sharing! 🙂

  152. @JC

    I bet turning the lights on and off and on and off has been great fun for you too. (Don’t take this seriously – I poking fun at you.)

  153. @bigstick

    I’m a bit dense, because that went right over my head hah.

  154. Aafke-Art, I most certainly agree with Harris that some religions have never had these militant crazies.

    I, like you, have great disdain for all man-made religions, however, some are most certainly worse than others especially the patriarchal Abrahamic religions. But, Islam tops the ‘A’ list as the worst of the worst in misanthropy and misogyny. The other issue, and this is most important, is that while there are plenty of crazies among fundamentalist Jews and Christians, not too many of them are resorting to actual violence. Naming a handful like McVeigh (not a Christian) or Kahana or a few anti-abortion murderers is hardly valid. Conversely, violence is a daily occurrence in the Muslim community all over the world.

    The incessant talk of the Crusaders is only done by people who do not know their history, which is most Muslims and many other people. The First Crusade was called by Pope Urban II at the request of Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, in order to repel the invading Seljuq Turks from Anatolia— after 400 years of Islamic aggression against nonMuslims. Islam had no business in the Holy Land! Jews had been there for thousands of years, while Christians were there hundreds of years prior to the advent of Islam.

    Islam burst out of Arabia after the death of Muhammad and proceeded to conquer the infidels via the sword including the Arabs, the Byzantines, the Persians, the N. Africans, the east Indians and into Europe. Within 200 years Muslims had succeeded in conquering half of the then known world and they did not do it via peaceful proselytizing.

    Muslims should read the bloody history of their supremacist, war ideology and stop talking and pretending about Islam being a religion of peace and tolerance. The Qur’an is filled with commands to make war, annihilate those who will not accept Islam and enslave those who are left, typically women and children. Most certainly those calls to jihad and annihilation in Muslim holy scriptures are what terrorists quote today. They dream of a new worldwide caliphate and the day that illiterate, backward islamofascists will rule the whole world.

    The only positive in all the negativity is that the Mohammedans are on a roll, slaughtering each other by the tens of thousands in the name of their religion. In this age of instant news around the world, such atrocities can no longer be hidden. Therefore, true Islam is seen in every village and hamlet on the planet. The people of earth see how Muslims treat their women and children. “Everyone” is reading Islamic scripture and thy do not like what they learn.

    The terrorists and their supporters are too stupid to recognize that Muslims are a minority in the world— mere one fifth of humanity. There is no way that the people of the world, most of whom would risk their lives for freedom and democracy, will let some 7th century misanthropic ideology rule them.

  155. @ JC

    Your are so fun. Okay. A two year old who has just learned he can reach the light switch.

  156. @ Jay

    Jay, I think you have had everyone touch on it so I will highlight.

    I will give a website that touches on some of the wonders of the bible. Judeo-Christian values have been used for governmental purposes and governmental control for a very long time. To deny that you would have to have your head stuck in the sand. So I will have to defer to MoQ statement that you are in fact talking about a western secular humanist path not a western Judeo-Christian path. Here is a website that does address some of the wonders of the bible. Yes, this website is biased but it does bring out some major issues with old and new testaments. I will tell you that, that is what I do subscribe to be is a secular humanist.

    Now Aafke-Art brings out excellent points regarding moderate Christians and many of their tirades. So if you are going to paint Muslims with the same brush you might as well paint Christians and Jews for that matter with the exact same brush. Quite frankly each one is a component of the Abrahamic death cult and all of them have the ability to do great atrocities. I don’t think I will go into the depth of Judeo-Christian values as you can research the wonders of their contributions of human suffering.
    I do intend to address the fact that the Crusades was in fact a product of Islam initially going against Christians who then went against Islam. Both religions caused problems though. Hilter was another one influenced by Christianity who had an admiration for Islam. In fact there is a lot of evidence that the Catholic Church assisted in the holocaust in turning a blind eye or just allowing it. I have heard they did much more. That is history. Also the Mufti of Palestine who had great political ambitions for Islam was also a collaborator to the holocaust. So you will pardon me when I say they ganged up on another branch of the Abrahamic doctrine. Isn’t religion great.
    Now I agree that religious schools should be monitored, school curriculum reviewed, on-site inspections, auditing. I really am against religious schools. If any religious schools take any public money they should have a microscope on every part of their activities. I am for taking the tax exemptions away as well. Of course, if the government feels that religious schools are becoming a problem they can enact strict guidelines on how they are run and operated.
    The best way to address it is to put it out there and not back down. Political correctness needs to take a hike when it comes to religion. Religion is a doctrine that is being used to instill hatred, apartheid, racism, bigotry, slavery, divisions, delusions, murder, rape, etc. Haven’t figured out how they can call themselves moral. There doctrines are anti- humanity as far as I am concern. Again, there are those who do cherry pick the nice parts out and follow that ,so I leave them alone.
    I believe deporting anyone who is not a citizen that preaches hatred. Publicly humiliating those who are citizens and drawing attention to their hatred. Putting out information showing the doctrines holes and providing safe houses to those who want to escape. Never allowing Beth dins or Sharia courts. Ensuring that services are not used to support the irresponsible religious doctrine such get religiously married then claiming a child without a father. I was reading where this is occurring in NY with the ultra-conservative Jews and the feds are now coming in to arrest them for fraud. Making it a hate crime to use religion to inflict discrimination or intimidation on women, gays or children. Make sure they actually get jail time. Shut down churches and schools where abuse has been found, fine, confiscate as much as possible from them. Catholic church a prime example of abusive and destructive actions.
    Quite frankly, MoQ has a point there are far more atheist, agnostic, humanist than people think. In the US it is estimated that there is 36 million. At this point that makes us I believe the 3rd largest group in the US and growing. I know several Christians who go to church that actually are agnostic/atheist but they go because of a family members. They list their religion as Christian so I believe the numbers to be higher.
    In addition, numbers talk so there are organizations that are trying to keep religions from encroaching into public sectors here are same websites:

    I am sure that there is a lot more we can do but taking people out of their jobs just specifically because of the religious preference is not one of them.

    Oby: I actually attend church on occasion as well. I let the kids hear the doctrine then show them the contradictions and how history played into the crafting of the religion. Then I talk about people’s lack of scientific knowledge and how they tried to explain the surroundings. However, I have family that is christian so we celebrate all of the holidays but I tell them it is a tradition that is past down to remember people in who are in need, faith in humanity and support of the economy.

  157. So JC, why the letter JC? Do they stand for Jesus Christ?
    Or are you a true pythonian and you named yourself after Our Lord John Cleese?

    Prosciutto, as far as I know the Jains are the only ones we really don’t have to worry about. As Harris said: the more extreme they get the less we need worry about them.
    He made such a good point on the TED speech; If the foundations of a belief are flawed, you get ”extremists” and terrorists, and crusades, and jihads etc. etc.
    The Abrahamic religions are extremely flawed, they are bad ideologies, with bad dogma, and bad books. Sometimes I am just flabbergasted that not many many more people see this. Really I think you will never get rid of religions, there will always bee some people who need this invisible friend thing, and there are people who are by nature of a slavish disposition and don’t want to think for themselves, but it shouldn’t be more than about 20% of humanity.

    Oby, besides the lunatics and the corruption of humanity’s innate morals, and the indoctrination of helpless gullable children and the misogyny I think religions are quite fun. I visit a lot of churches and temples, I’ve done Buddhist meditation courses, and lots of other stuff. And I love Roman Catholic churches in the south of Europe, with lots of statues, and dust, and pieces of mummified saints in golden reliquaries, and candles… Brilliant!
    I like churches anyway, just to be in them.

  158. @Aafke

    Lol, no. It stands for Johnny Cash.

  159. @bigstick

    Hah! Well that joke wasn’t all that far from the truth.

  160. “Ensuring that services are not used to support the irresponsible religious doctrine such get religiously married then claiming a child without a father. I was reading where this is occurring in NY with the ultra-conservative Jews and the feds are now coming in to arrest them for fraud.”

    I agree that ANYONE using religion in this way should be prosecuted. Jews, Muslims, Mormons, whoever…

    There was a great article in Newsweek I believe addressing this issue but in Israel instead of USA. I can’t find that link at the moment…But here is another link discussing this.

  161. All..

    I have just come across this poem. thought provoking…

  162. Told from Muslim POV, with some changes it could probably be told from other’s POV as well.

  163. Everything Nessriinnn does is good and though provoking. She has a really good video on sharia too.
    This video was flagged (of course) but a lot of people mirrored it.

  164. Here is another one.

    Her voice really does justice to these videos.

  165. We can fill this thread with the beautiful and heart wrenching video’s of Nessrriinnn.

  166. I know but they are great.

  167. I didn’t realize she had done a whole series of videos. Where is she from? Where does she live now?

  168. I just googled her…thanks anyway.

  169. Radicalization of “All American Muslims” & The US Military

    I saw an online news report earlier today that Rep. Peter King is planning to hold a fourth round of hearings on “radicalization” of American Muslims and their participation in and effect on US military. The very first thing that came to my mind was …. here we go again ….

    Just like the previous three hearings, claims of “Islamophobia,” incitement, and the danger of “backlash” will undoubtedly be forthcoming from the islamists and their apologists. Muslim advocacy groups want a double standard in favor of Islam.

    If there had been a mass-casualty attack by a “Pastafarian” soldier quoting Pastafarian scripture to kill the Flying Spaghetti Monster, there would surely be hearings and inquiries. If there had been more than one Pastafarians who killed or tried to kill fellow soldiers, there would be all the more urgent hearings and inquiries, no questions asked.

    Detecting a pattern and calling attention to it should not be equated with “hate”. Islamists almost always never the use the word “hatred” for whatever reason, but “hate” is the preferred lingo of islamists :)-

    But the apparent mentality toward another jihadist attack within the military seems almost like waiting for a tornado. It can happen, though no one can say when or where, or why. Just duck and cover when it does, and hope for the best :)-

  170. Sharia’s Sinister Smiles :)-

    The totalitarian nature of Sharia law can only be grasped when one appreciates how thoroughly it permeates and dictates everything in a believer’s life. Including when and to whom a Muslim may smile.

    Popular Islamic TV preacher Sheikh Muhammad Hassan asserts that, according to Sharia, it is “not at all permissible” for Muslims to smile at non-Muslims, “except in cases of da’wa” or “missionary work, to “call” or “summon” non-Muslims to Islam. Because it shares the same goals of jihad—empowering and spreading Islam—da’wa is often seen as jihad’s nonviolent counterpart.

    In fact, Sheikh Hassan himself asserts that “da’wa mode differs from jihad mode. Jihad mode requires power, zeal, manliness—basically, a stern face and such. But when in da’wa mode, you must smile, you must be gentle.” :)-

    Read the full article at:

  171. To veer a bit off-topic, does anyone else marvel, like I do, just how GODAWFUL UGLY many Saudi/Wahhabi sheikhs are? Every time I see a picture of one of them online, I am, like, how did your wife let you leave the house looking like this? With that scraggly growth on your chin that hasn’t been brushed forever? You look like a ZZ Top reject. I asked my husband and his take is that in their value system, ugly is the new beautiful. So the uglier you are, the better. It’s seen as a manly-looking thing or something.

  172. NN, Have you got any idea how offensive that comment is? They work very hard at those beards! It takes weeks of dripping food and grease on them, knotting the hairs in the evening, avoiding anything close to a comb and soap, (both decadent inventions of the Wicked West and distributed in the holy land of Islam to serve the Zionist cause).
    And then there’s the problem with keeping the shemag on the oily slippery hair, (That’s why they wear those little caps). And there is the problem of just enough smuttiness on the short thobe without it loosing so much white that it doesn’t count as white anymore. A couple of chewed down miswaks in the pockets always add a bit of allowed color.
    I think you should give them credit for putting so much effort in their looks, and their dedication to religion by making sure they look extremely ugly and UN-appetizing so to be able to address women without causing them to get sexual thoughts and get aroused.
    In the way a cucumber or banana is inevitably bound to do.

    Really, I think that comment was offending. You should know better NN!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: