Saudi Arabia: Honeymoon’s Not Allowed?


Most newlywed couples in Saudi Arabia traditionally take a one month honeymoon.  Since marriages are still arranged in Saudi Arabia this gives the new bride and groom time to get to know one another away from their families.  It should also be a time of happiness and bliss.  Yet it seems that this view is not always endorsed by all….


95 Responses

  1. Again, muslims version of happiness. One man’s utopia is another man’s hell.

    Muslim happiness is what I call hell on earth.

  2. I’m sorry, but that guy just comes off as a twerp.

    I love this blog, this is my first time posting a reply.

    Your post about whether dark-skinned Saudis are treated differently got me thinking. I am wondering if there are Saudi women or men with blonde or red hair and blue or green eyes.

    Keep up the good work, AB!

  3. I think this preacher pretty much estated that travelling to a non-muslim country is haraam, well, they lose it, more free beaches in the Caribbean for me, more space in Paris, London or Venice for me to have fun. People who follow this guy are seriously missing the nice things in life, because what i have seen so far shows that he really hates all sorts of fun

  4. @fondue

    Muslim fun is as follows:

    Sitting around devising new ways to repress women then saying it is religiously mandated.
    Driving in Saudi.
    Learning the koran while being hit in the head, feet, back, name body part for getting something wrong.
    Figuring out what tent to wear.
    Counting the number of walls inside your home.
    Parking cars on elevated rocks know as car art.
    Mother in laws like sitting around figuring out how to make daughter in law’s life miserable.
    Having everyone watch every move you make in hopes that they caught you doing something wrong so you might enjoy S & M or B & D activites publicly.

    Just a small sample of wholesome fun in Saudi.

  5. What a f*****g fool! Dueteronomy is the old testament not specifically Christian. Paris and Hawaii are not foreign countries. If one cannot have sex outside of marriage, why would a honeymoon (a vacation with one’s spouse) be problematic.

  6. ha ha ha .. way to go.. no honeymoon now
    what can i say — new day same shot 🙂

  7. ha ha ha .. way to go.. no honeymoon now
    what can i say — new day same shit

  8. What’s sad is that he tries to be funny. And, yes, please stay to yourself you silly man. We kuffars don’t care to be around such ignorant, arrogant morons.

  9. I see…so it is mentioned in the bible therefore it is a Christian invention. Well, let’s see…eating, children, working, praying, sex, wealth , and a very long list of other things are also in the Bible. Does that make these actions only for Christians? Besides Deuteronomy is in the OLD aka Hebrew Bible. Not the NEW testament aka Christian bible. sheesh…if you are gonna slander get it right at least!

  10. Can people go on a honeymoon to another muslim country?

  11. Hmm…

    What has Abu Musab got to do with Saudis? He is a lebanses who spent his youth in the US. I am not sure if he lives here, but again, why’s this post titled “Saudi Arabia:…….”? Just because someone wears thawb you immediately link him to us? Unless this post is supposed to shed light on the Salafi school of thought which is protected and nurtured by the Saudis?

  12. @Saudi Woman,

    Abu Musab works in Jeddah’s Dawah Center.

    You should be mad at your own government for supporting the Nutters across the world and creating a haven for them to come to Saudi and become more steeped in the Wahabbi insanity craft.

  13. What should be forbidden is getting your religious education from a crack-jack dictator college of religion or a back ally shady Islamic center.


  14. I am a proud British Muslim Expat who is based in KSA/ME for the past decade and very much aware of the nation’s pulse and progress.

    We can all point to extremities and washed minds of all religions and cultures, inclusive of orthodox jews, normans, protestants, catholics and yes islam!

    This man does NOT reflect the progressive, mainstream and embracing islam and its people.

    We need to stop promoting this archaic propaganda and start by deleting it! it is really a skewed view of islam and yes ksa!

    It serves no purpose but to stereotype the worlds largest religion and people in a time we least need it.

  15. But he does reflect the thinking of much of the current religious establishment and as long as they hold legal sway over the rest of us it needs to be said.

    This is not archaic propaganda. This is what happens in Saudi. It is not stereotyping.

  16. @ehsan – how does this stereotype Christians? If you meant Islam, I know that they love to say that Islam is the ‘fastest growing’ but sheesh, that was pretty fast if they have already outnumbered the Christians.

  17. Ok why dnt we gets 2 min clips of all of abu mussabs warnings against the muslims and keep it going for another week.!! this blog supposed to be about Saudi or what (yes i know he is jeddah big deal there are better things to talk about)..and we all know saudis have honeymoons like everyone else in the world and I’m sure the whole “honey on the moon” idea never crossed their mind.
    Can we please get onto more interesting topics..what about orphans in saudis? or disabled children’s facilities and what saudi families do in these situation..something of more substance rather then if there is honey on the moon or not..

  18. Ok now I have to put a comment because this guy is just pissing me off! Every sentence he says is just outrageous and completely wrong: this guy has demonstrated a total absence of logical reasoning! What he says is totally idiotic and ridiculous!!

    It’s not because the honeymoon is found in the Bible (Old testament as Oby said) that it is wrong: in fact, Christianity is just another religion of the Book and isn’t Islam inspired from it? In addition, it’s not because you go outside of Saudi Arabia in a non Muslim country that offers alcohol that you have to drink it. Isn’t Islam (like the other religions of the Book) also about self-discipline?

    Also a scholar around me pointed out: who is this guy to just give some definite answers to subjects like women dress code or honeymoon?! He apparently thinks he is God to just give answers to such questions…! Obviously this guy is not a scholar! did he even bother to research the subjects?

  19. Deuteronomy is part of the old testament but it’s still part of the Bible and I find it odd that Christians conveniently distance themselves from it when it says something they don’t like yet they keep it as part of the book.

    There are a few main points that Abu Mussab came out with.

    First and foremost, we are not to imitate the disbelievers in things which are specific to them. So as for the person who said that X, Y, and Z are mentioned in the bible too – your point is moot because the things you mentioned are common to all people and have always been so. An action (like vacation) at random isn’t the same as a specific one at a specific time.

    This brings him to the next point – the environments most Muslims choose to be in for this time. They take cues from other people and where they go and what they do on their honeymoons.

    It is not intended that a couple can’t have fun, travel but to make a habit of traveling right after marriage following a tradition that is not from Islaam and going to places and doing things that don’t fit with the religion is an issue.

    You people have a way of distorting things. If I say I don’t celebrate birthdays next thing I know you’d be saying that I don’t eat cake! Just because we don’t go on “honeymoons” doesn’t mean we don’t have vacations.

  20. “honeymoon” simply described the period just after the wedding when things are at their sweetest.

    Honeymoon is not a beleiver/disbeliever thing. it’s not even western if you look at the history . it simply used to be what people in eastern cultures ( inida perhaps) did, they visited people who couldn’t come ot their wedding.

    But what this guy talks about is pure garbage , no matter how you coat it it is garbage.

    As for not imitating disbelievers, there are a bunch of things with muslims do that is similar to everyone else onthis planet, c’mon it is one of the youngest religions, so you are doing something someonelese did. Imitation is a method of learning, and hence evolution.

    Hawaii is not only known for scantily clad people it is beautiful and nature at it’s best, the very same nature made byt he sam egod i assume. if not for anything else , watching the sunsets /sunrise over the oceans is in itself a celebration of god’s creation and pure peace.

    Wanting to see that and share that with someone you have comitted to spend your life is not imitating disbelievrs it is celebrating god’s gift.

    but then everything seems to be about the obsessions with disbeleivers and women covering up.. so why bother with logic, just spin some nonsense and you’ll find a willing audience somewhere

    Anyway My daughter just declared she is not marrying anyone who refuses to go with her to a honeymoon, so there that cuts all the muslim population out i guess 🙂

  21. “Deuteronomy is part of the old testament but it’s still part of the Bible and I find it odd that Christians conveniently distance themselves from it when it says something they don’t like yet they keep it as part of the book.”

    No one is distancing themselves from it…Christians (and I assume Jews) have no issues with a honeymoon. It isn’t haram. But the guy is quoting Deuteronomy and saying it is Christian. That is wrong. The book of Deuteronomy is in the old testament so the idea of honeymoon came around with the Jews not the Christians. Christians do have the old testament as part of their bible but they focus more on the New testament.

  22. Stacey…

    Your comment is nonsensical. Instead of calling it a honeymoon why not call it the “first vacation of our newly married life” if vacations are OK. The point IMO is it is semantics. If Muslims don’t want to go to kuffar lands then don’t! Take the First vacation of the newly married life in a muslim country. Visit historical sites, relax in the country side…do whatever is halal. Also I live in a “Kuffar” country and I don’t drink by choice. I don’t engage in illicit relations, I don’t dress provocatively, I don’t do drugs etc. Who says it is necessary to do these things if a muslim couple come here for their first vacation of newly married life? Just don’t! I mean if a kuffar like me can live that kind of life it should be easy for a couple who are here temporarily to manage it.

    As far as the things listed…they all count. Humans are humans and they pretty much want the same thing. It is just that muslims are obsessed with making sure that they don’t somehow get tainted by us infidels. It msut be hell for those who live in the West…a constant temptation to fight!

  23. :This brings him to the next point – the environments most Muslims choose to be in for this time. They take cues from other people and where they go and what they do on their honeymoons.:

    — I take offense to this statement . This makes muslims look like brainless duds.. Thank god the ones i associate with seems perfectly capable of thinking on their own and not taking cues from other people…

    — so i assume his lecture if for those blind sheep who follow whomever it is convienient to copy. Forget about honeymoon,t hese sheep need to keep far away from the whole marriage process itself.

  24. @Bella-Vita,

    “Ok why dnt we gets 2 min clips of all of abu mussabs warnings against the muslims and keep it going for another week.!!”

    The Saudi government creates centers where they pay for crazies like this guy to come study and create Islamic propaganda. The average Wahabbi Saudi cleric cannot speak English to a level where they can lecture in the language. So they are using their money to attract like minded English speakers.

    Abu Mussab is just one of those. He is young, full of enthusiasm, and can speak English well. So he is a good person to keep on the payroll. These videos are paid for by Saudi and aimed directly at newly converted women. The object is to make more of them into Bella-Vita clones.

    It is fair game to expose the ridiculous!!!

  25. Deutronomy 24:5

    ‘If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married.’

    Doesn’t say anything about vacations away so I guess the Muslims can once again feel free to spend to go on all the ‘honeymoons’ they want.

    Also, I have NEVER known anyone who took a month long honeymoon vacation. Most of us normal folk need to get on with our lives even though we just got married.

  26. @Bella-Vita

    The muslims I have talked with have video conferences from clerics from saudi and yemen here in the US. They are wanting separation of sexes, polyogmy, sharia, not befriending non-muslims, blasphemy laws, and talk of the caliphate. If Saud is going to finance and promote their backwards ideology then they better be ready for all sorts of critizism. I don’t care if they don’t like it. They are promoting a sick society.

  27. Most Saudis I know have taken a month’s honeymoon. From my own observations, favorite places seem to be Lebanon, Paris, London and USA.

  28. Not to mention they are causing great problems and upheaval in societies that, even though there are many different types here, in general function pretty well. This will cause huge upheaval and a LOT of discrimination against muslims…if the stupid nonmuslims are not afraid to speak up about it.

  29. bigstick…

    Are these muslims in agreement with the stuff coming out of saudi? and if so why are they sharing it with a nonmuslim? Is it bragging? Serious question.

  30. The word Honeymoon is from pre Christian European civilization; newly weds were pampered and were given lots of ”mede”, a drink made from honey. For a moontime. So one month. Hence Honey-moon.

  31. @ oby

    1) They are converts or reverts.
    2) To recruit and draw more to this version of Islam. Oh, don’t tell them version of Islam. Gets there panties in a twist as there is ONLY ONE VERSION OF ISLAM.
    3) No, they actually believe it. They have loyalties to Saudi as they believe it to be the perfect place for muslims. Even though they have never lived there.

    Personnally, I always go by the saying that the grass is always greener on the other side because it has so much more crap to lay down.

    Let me tell you reverts are the most militiant in many cases.

    I have been told by some muslims who truly believe that there is no compulsion and that religion is to be a private matter as well. So I know their are those out there that are secular, progressive, moderate, and then you have conservative, ultra-conservative and then there is the fanatics. The problem is that the last three get the most air time thereby tainting everyone else.

  32. One of the biggest crap ever seen and such big crap is promoted here!!

  33. @Azad-perhaps you’d like to share that comment on the youtube where he is really promoted?

  34. Azad ali shah, you mean these sick videos? I fully agree with you.

    Big stick, the major problems is that the fanatics and conservatives have the scriptures to support them. The secular and moderates know this. That must be why you never ever see a large group of moderate Muslims come together and protest all the evil done in islam’s name. They know they really cannot back their moderate views up with the holy books. They will always loose when it comes to thge basics of Islam.

  35. @Azad Ali Shah

    Hey, I have seen videos of muslim woman who state that non-muslim women should be captured for purposes of sex slaves and given to their men to keep them in line with what is lawful in the religion. Clerics who teach men how to beat women and get away with it. Calling women who don’t cover “meat.” who should expect to be raped due to a lack of muslim brand modesty. Had a muslim women in California advocated for the death penalty and polygomy because Arnold Scwarzenegger had an affair which produced another child.

    So what exactly are you calling crap?

  36. Gave me a good laugh with my coffee this morning. Seems that lots of honeymoons happen in Dubai, Oman and other ME countries as well. One sad honeymoon story …. on a beach in Thailand are a man and woman on honeymoon. Woman stands with abaya, hijab and niqab. Man has shorts and short sleeve shirt and is playing in the water. Good start to the marriage I say. Set out the ground rules right from the get/go. 😦
    Odd that the nutter assumes that people on a honeymoon will not pray and will do evil things apart from trying to procreate which of course we all know is the Muslim ideal. Keep the wife blessed with pregnancies and locked up the rest of the time.

  37. @Aafke-Art,

    Isn’t that why Turkey is looking into the scriptures to re-evaluate the scriptures to tame the narley beast.

  38. I find it interesting that viewing this clip is blocked from Saudi. I can’t watch it!

  39. Ah…actually I could watch it here- but I can’t watch it on YouTube. I get the “blocked page” message. Anyway- what an idiot.

  40. @bigstick,

    Many of those craps are posted and discussed here. If any of those videos are missed, u can suggest to post in this blog.

  41. Azad ali shah, you mean these sick videos? I fully agree with you.

    Yes, its such a shitty crap but to discuss such crap and discuss on this is bigger crap.

  42. Hi Sandy.

    So the woman who got sentenced for 10 lashes for driving is that still going to go forward? Just wondering.

  43. Since we are talking about the ridiculous. Here is a new one. A salafi TV imam just issues a fatwah “it is Haram for a woman to wear high heels with the exception of wearing it at home for husband”

    Sorry the link is only in Arabic.

    Note this man is Egyptian, but he is dressed in full Saudi Wahhabi clothing. Including the traditional Bisht and the Ghotrah without Egal. It should give everyone a visual of how much these Salafi groups are influenced by Saudi Wahabbi ideology.

  44. U will find such craps in each and every corner of the world. Here is one more OFFICIAL craps (not from Youtube):

    Israeli ads
    A message for American Jews

    This world will not exists if majority people starts giving too much emphasis to such useless craps. And u cant shut all crappy mouths. I dont buy the idea to give so much importance to these craps.

  45. OOPS I should have said Crap instead of Ridiculous, per MD’s new technical terminology 😉

  46. @Bigstick,
    Hello. It is hard to know exactly because it isn’t being covered in the press. Apparently Shaima was served her papers indicating her sentence, but apparently also has one month to appeal the sentence. I’m assuming she is appealing. I have not been able to find out what happened to the pardon. It was reported- but maybe there was no paper follow up? Hard to say. There is a lot of local speculation- but I haven’t heard anything else credible. There are a couple other women that were given court dates regarding driving. I haven’t heard anything more on those either.

  47. @Sandy

    So have you ever thought to leave Saudi? I mean seriously, you are an intelligent, reasonable, senisible person. It just seems ashame that you are constrained in such a manner. Just wondering?

  48. @Bigstick,
    Thank you. At this point in my life we are really well settled here. We actually have a very good life here. My husband and his family are all wonderful people and a great support network. The kids are well settled, husbands and my job prospects are good (I’m a teacher which makes that easy for me). We visit my family stateside every summer. I only come on the blogs and speak up because the system is really awful and the women who are suffering here are not able to- and I am tired of the women who have it good acting like there is no problem here just because THEY have no problem. True I can’t drive- but in the grand scheme of things for me- on the balance life is good. And ultimately- I hope I can help make a difference for the better.

  49. @Azad Ali Shah:

    Yes the fanatic knows no bound.

    Some more on the Ultra conservative Jews:,7340,L-4145922,00.html

    Does this need to be addressed as well. YES. To keep quite and accept it only allows it to grow.

  50. @ Sandy:

    Well keep up the fight. Whether you know it or not people do find you insight extremely useful. You bring a normalizing voice and view to those in Saud who have different opinions than the hardliners. It is refreshing. I think it would be great if some Saudi men started talking against the practices that are so detrimental to their society as well. I haven’t found too many that are willing to put it out there like the women seem to be. Of course, that could just be exposure.

  51. @Bigstick,
    Thank you. I actually hear a lot of men speaking out- but not on blogs, that’s for sure.

  52. What is his problem?? such nonsense!

  53. It is sad to see an alarming proliferation of such authoritarian deceleration of what the the rule of Islam is on an issue. This person is distributing ahkam (rules) which he believes to be the absolute truth, guided by his assumption that is he correct for whatever reason. Meanwhile he is oblivious to the fact that by stating such absolute ahkam, he is atrociously speaking in God’s name and has effectively kidnapped God’s will.

  54. “The object is to make more of them into Bella-Vita clones.”… why thank you for the compliment.

  55. The guy was divinely inspired with his religious knowlegde about Islam in Los Angelas California after being Buddhist for 5 years… Come on! I think that says enough. He is fine to have his ideas and perception, but who/what is funding him to spread this non-sense? Seriously!

  56. I can’t even take this guy serious. How old is he anyways? Mid-20s? What does he now about the right way of life. Seriously. His voice isn’t even fully broken.

  57. Eyebrow hairs are nothing! What a silly concept to waste your time on. What we should really worry about is the sexual thoughts cucumbers and carrots inspire in women!

    Luckily there are clerics who are tackling this important worldwide problem:

    This places an even greater burden on the muslim men. Carrots, cucumbers and zucchini, are all suspect of arousing and inspiring sexual thoughts in women, so the men should buy these items and keep them in a hidden place. If women want to eat them they should cut them up first so as to make sure their nefarious sexual influence is diminished.

    If I were a muslim woman I would insist on eating only cucumber salads and sandwiches so my husband would have to prepare all the meals.

  58. I just ran a few carrots and cucumbers through my juicer…

  59. Aafke! I think we all know there is NO hope for your soul! 😉

  60. Huh?
    Very healthy you know…

  61. Goes to prove that men (and I won’t say all) place so much importance on their own genitalia that they think women also do. In fact women do not think about men’s genitalia very much at all and I suspect in many cases when they ARE thinking about it they are not having good thoughts. Men can’t get it through their heads that it is the journey and not the destination. 🙂

  62. Good point Wendy!
    Do they really think women dream about penises? Don’t they know that women’s usual first thought of seeing or thinking of a penis is, ”Eeeh! Yuk!”???
    Talk about delusions of grandeur!

    Time for another juice methinks

  63. I remember some idiot or another mentioned this very thing some years ago..I think in Afghanistan or Pakistan. He said that outside vege sellers had to cover up their phallic looking veges cause women shoppers might be overcome with sexual feelings and do a running of the bulls type thing through the market. Thankfully we have men like this around to keep us “we see phallic symbols in everything” women under control. Who knows what would happen if we just let loose with our feelings and did whatever we wanted…like grab men’s…cucumbers and carrots….in public.

    Then again…I have a feeling quite a few men wouldn’t mind that nearly as much as women mind having their…melons and whatnot grabbed.

  64. Most every culture gives the newly married couple time alone. This guy needs a history book. The practice of a honeymoon has little to do with Christianity.

    Is not the claim that Islam is supposed to respect ALL religions of the Book? That part of the Book is Jewish, the Old Testament. Must be the reason that the guy, who looks like an organ grinder’s monkey and talks like a chauvinist pig, is railing against it. The dude is not old enough to be called “Abu.” OTOH, if he had children as early as most Muslims, maybe he is a grandfather.

    Saudis love to take honeymoons (and other trips) in the West and Dubai. It seems that shopping is very Islamic and so halal.

    Here is the latest in conspicuous consumption for honeymooners and others:

    Dubai Shopping Festival woos Saudi visitors

    The Ayatollah Khomeini said that: “There is no joy in Islam.” Except possibly for shopping.

    The Z Theory says: “Meanwhile he is oblivious to the fact that by stating such absolute ahkam, he is atrociously speaking in God’s name and has effectively kidnapped God’s will.”

    God’s will? That is also absolute ahkam, is it not?

    Have you spoken to God?

    No one has ever been able to prove that there is a God or gods and no one ever will. It is all a matter of faith! It is no one’s business what another believes. This guy can believe in lawn fairies, jinn and what ever god he conjures up in his little brain. What he cannot do is insist that others must believe as he does.

    He is just another extremist, religious male with issues about his manhood. Therefore, the need to control others, especially women. Men who have no power or standing in society will often prey upon and try to lord it over the weakest members of society—women and children.

  65. @Prosciutto:
    Establishing that God has a will and purpose of creation is not contingent on me speaking to God. If you believe in God then you believe that there is a will and purpose of creation. This is a matter of faith.

    Now, as a matter of law (or Sharia) You are partially proving my point ! No on exactly knows what is the will of God, Scholars have described “Sharia” as the divine law, the way to and of God that fulfills all the values of justice, equity and beauty, existing in a utopian realm unattainable by humans.

    What we have here is temporal Sharia, which is supposed to be the closest approximation of the divine sharia, but never its full embodiment. It is purely man made through relying on textual or rational indications. Even after diligently doing so, scholars end their analysis by “God knows best” (allahu a’alam) out of fear of speaking in God’s name.

    Now this person sitting behind a mic with a full “Islamic” attire preaching ahkam is in a position of being authoritative. A layperson would have no reason but to believe that what he is saying is truly God’s will. But, by not stating any textual or rational proofs to his argument, and by not stating other scholars’ opinions especially on that matter, he has become authoritarian and effectively kidnapped God’s will.

  66. Z theory, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but in all countries with sharia law people live in poverty, and women live in hell.
    While here in the Netherlands we don’t have anything resembling sharia, but are getting quite close to paradise: we have a good life, we have good universities, we make and invent stuff, we are currently having a weeks and weeks of partying and presents and nice food, we are drowning in rain (god overdoing the good stuff a bit) there’s beauty all around, I even have two cucumbers in my fridge!

    Seems to me the further away one gets from Sharia the closer one gets to paradise.

  67. @Z Theory:

    There is no proof that any of the text written as holy books every had gods blessing or god’s will. I can ask you all day long until the day I die and you will never be able to bring me proof. What you will be able to bring me is a book that a man wrote that has been past down from generation to generation which has been pieced together and finally codified in the 9th century. The fact that this book has over 300 words foreign to Arabic, that vowel connotation dramatically changed the meaning with over 30 different possible meaning and over a 1000 different variant forms that it could have taken. The fact that you have 7 different versions that do in fact changed the text even though apologist say it is recitation (BS). The fact that the Yemen Koran differs, the fact there is no original Koran in hand. The fact that you do have textual difference between some Korans even today. I believe that the fifth line or something like that cannot even be deciphered and some are not saying the language is more Syrian/Arabic also poses problems. Heck the list just continues. However my head is not in the sand. I have read the history of how the Koran came into existence and how the religious keep trying to block what many scholars already know. Again, you have no proof but a book. I can bring out Harry Potter and tell you all about the world of magic and then call it proof. No different. It is just people followed it. Spare me the justification, I have heard it before and I get tired of the religious persons’ acrobats in trying to justify delusions.

  68. some are( not) saying the language is more Syrian/Arabic

    now should be now.

  69. Aafke-Art,

    My you have a cornucopia of pleasure. Cucumbers, carrots, zucchini, and I am sure your list goes on. I am laughing my butt off right now over your post. I feel like I have just turn on Dr. Ruth and the 101 ways to use your fruits and vegetables in non-digestible ways.

  70. Aafke-Art,

    Now the whole juicer thing with the cumcumbers and carrots implication has me thinking of the bobbitt story. Little scary.

  71. Syro Aramaic. Taken that language into account, which everybody spoke in at the time of Mohammed, and a trader would most certainly be conversant in it, the translucent ice cold virgin houris are actually translucent ice cold grapes. So the muslim men will be regaled with 7 grapes in heaven. Maybe there is more in heaven for the women than I thought. At least a good laugh.
    If you change the dots, you change the writing, the sentence that women have to cover their chest could read: ”wear your girdle around your hips”. ( a girdle symbolized your chastity) I think women should leave off hijab and abaya and wear a girdle around their hips instead.

    Bigstick I have no idea what you are talking about.

    I am sure a small video of my horse attacking his carrots would get these sheiks into a fainting fit.
    If I can get my camera I’ll film it tomorrow 😈

  72. Aafke-Art:

    You get it on the language part.

    What part do you not get on my posts.

    I am still laughing now I have visions of a horse going after nether regions.

  73. Bigstick, I like you, check out my clouddragon blog.
    There is much wickedness there which you would enjoy I am sure.
    Do nibble on the ”Danish Delights”

  74. @Bigstilck: My focus is on law not faith. The debate between theists and atheists is eternal and I have no interest or energy in going back to square one to prove the validity of the Quran. Thus I respectfully withdraw my self from this debate.

    @Afake-Art: I do agree with you that nowadays the more “Islamic” the country, the more oppressive it becomes to its people. Yet, I do not believe that Sharia is the cause even if at times it was the tool.

    Although I regard referencing the Islamic golden age as an argument for the weak, nonetheless I believe it is an accurate case in point. Back then they had the best universities, science and inventions thrived, and most of all a just legal system was installed even for Jews escaping Europe’s Inquisition. More importantly, diversity even within Sharia was not only accepted but celebrated. Rulers came and went, but Sharia remain a scholarly endeavor and was always protected from whims and fancies especially from being politicized

    The ‘hell on earth’ only became true after the obliteration of the classical guilds system that ensured the diversity and independence of the law. After that, this complex system was up for grabs by rulers to secure their thrones or by half wits who have no supervised training e.g. our friend up there.

  75. Z-Theory:

    The islamic golden age occurred in spite of Islam. Fact is many that muslims claim during the golden age as scientist were know as heretics such as Al-Razi. He was extremely critical of Islam. Again, my head is not in the sand. Who wants to debate, I already told you I was tired of debating with the delusional.

  76. @Bigstick,Being in a state of delusion is a relative concept, but lets reserve our self respect and intellectual integrity by refraining from name calling.

  77. I am so ingenue, so innocent. The only thing I was saying is that I have lots of carrots, and cucumbers, and I have a juicer because juicing vegetables is so healthy….
    And my horse just likes carrots…

  78. That was for bigstick, a lot of comments got inbetween

  79. Z theory:

    Awe sorry. I know how hard it is to come to grips with the truth. If this very mild terminology which in fact describes the parameters of the religious offends you then you will have issues with a number of debated points. I will try to refrain from hurting your delicate, soft, green, fairytale sensibilities in our future (should there be a future) dialogue. Do you want me to baby talk to you and read you a story so that you can also image as real such as Treasury Island, Peter Pan, and Snow White. Just let me know how I can help the poor little misunderstood, delicated, sensitive you.

  80. Aafke-Art:

    Yeah, right. Innocent? Sure you are. (Sarcasam dripping) (Carrot post)

  81. @bigstick
    I am pretty surprised by your last comment: obviously you have your own opinion about Islam but no need to be all disrespectful and condescending.

  82. @ miss turtle

    Why are you surprised? Then I will address it. Next I have no more problem with Islam than I have with any other religion.

  83. I clearly understood that you were an atheist, thks! But this is not the point. What I was surprised about is that you were very condescending in your previous comment i.e disrespectful. That’s all.

  84. Miss Turtle:

    Again why are you suprised?

    Yes, condescending. Disrespectfully, I don’t think so. You have to understand that this is a debating point and sometimes people are going to say things that you just don’t like hearing. The point I was making is if that is going to bother you and it is mild then you are going to bother by a whole lot. Then maybe you need to wake up and grow up because people are going to hurt your sensibilities. That is part of expanding your knowledge and growing up. There are many ways that people express themselves to make points and sometimes you just might not like them. That is the point of this. The fact is I see religion as a world of fairytales and it to me is a delusion. You might like your delusion but I am not going to support a fairytale in a grown up world that has great implications of creating and in fact already has done great harm from such fairytales. So you will excuse me when I say, I am not sorry.

  85. The Z Theory said:

Establishing that God has a will and purpose of creation is not contingent on me speaking to God. If you believe in God then you believe that there is a will and purpose of creation. This is a matter of faith.

    Certainly it is contingent on you or anyone proving that there is a God who demands what people claim this god demands.

    I have trouble with the “will and purpose of creation” because humanity has this nasty habit of believing that everything is all about them. When in truth, we are but grains of sand in geological time. I would hope that people are not made in the image of God, because then this God would be one really nasty dude.

    I believe in science and a Natural Force, if you will, that binds the universe together. I cannot believe that the purpose of creation is the unending destruction that God regularly visits upon creation. In order to make peace with my God, I must believe that Nature is impartial in Her passing out of good and bad, of building up and tearing down of destruction and rebirth.

    What sort of a beneficent, compassionate, loving God, the supposed father of all living things, demands that a man prove his obedience to this god by sacrificing his own son? That sort of proof of loyalty is the kind of thing that tyrants and fascists demand. What sort of loving father would destroy all living things with a flood and threaten to do it next time with fire? What exactly is the purpose of this god in being destructive of his/her own creations?

    The other issue is one of this god allowing atrocities and natural disasters to decimate his/her creations including innocent men, women, children and all other creatures on a very regular basis.

    Given the above, the islamic allah must not be too pleased with Muslims because they are not only getting the brunt of most natural disasters, but also slaughtering each other by the tens of thousands in the name of allah, while most are living in self-made ignorance, misery and abject poverty the world over.

    If I dissect the above too much then I shall consider becoming an atheist.

    “Now this person sitting behind a mic with a full “Islamic” attire preaching ahkam is in a position of being authoritative. A layperson would have no reason but to believe that what he is saying is truly God’s will. But, by not stating any textual or rational proofs to his argument, and by not stating other scholars’ opinions especially on that matter, he has become authoritarian and effectively kidnapped God’s will”

    The people who believe the Organ Grinder’s Monkey’s pronouncements would have to be really ignorant, if not totally, willfully stupid. Scholars are self-made and self-professed. They regurgitate and embellish upon what “scholars” who went before have claimed, which is basically that which they themselves made up in order to enhance their own position in the community. These men have no more proof of the god-head than the average, lay person as to what God’s will is or even if there is a God at all.

    The utopian realm for which Muslims pine, filled with rivers of wine, servant boys like pearls, jewel encrusted couches and 72 virgins to service for eternity, is a human, male, adolescent sexual fantasy. It is shameful that any educated, mature adult would buy into it. Indolence and nihilism in this life in order to dwell in a celestial brothel for eternity is indicative of arrested adolescence.

    Religious “scholars” are not scientists who must prove their hypotheses with supportable, data that then become theories, which can be peer reviewed and will hold up to being reproduced. Religious “scholars” offer nothing but blind faith. Fine for those who wish to believe in the supernatural. However, there should be the freedom to believe in other things or the freedom FROM religion without the threat of violence. Unfortunately, under Islam there is no freedom but the freedom to be a sheep following the others over a cliff.

    The problem with Islam and its whole way of life is the complete and total negativity. Everything is all about Hell-fire and blood-curdling punishments. Not to mention the corporal rewards for doing the sorts of things that on earth, in a civilized society, would land a person in prison.

    Speaking of scholars, clerics and cukes. . .

    Ninety percent of sex is in the brain.

    These clerics should ban all things that make men think of sex, like putting a coin into a vending machine. 😀

    There are many fruits and veggies that resemble female genitalia as well. For example, figs. Figs should never be touched by a man! Ditto for peaches, plums, tomatoes and the like. Might make them have a severe case of priapism. Left untreated, that could kill ya. 😉

    Ever hear this one?

    Two old ladies were in the produce section where cucumbers were on special: 3 for a dollar. “What will we do with the third cumber,?” asked one woman. “We can always eat it,” said the other.

    Islamic cleric bans women from touching bananas, cucumbers for sexual resemblance

    I am bustin’ a gut laughing. A week does not pass without some cleric showing the world how to better appreciate the wisdom of Islam.

    International Phallic Fruit & Vegetable Appreciation Society

  86. Ok, I am a believer and I respect those who are not but it does not mean that I will talk to them in a condescending or disrespectful way.

    I am a big girl, most likely older and wiser than you. So let’s just agree to disagree as you are still not getting my point. I am out of this conversation, this is just totally useless.

  87. Miss Turtle;

    I don’t know that you are much older and it is questionable if you are much wiser. I have seen with my own eyes and experienced what religion is capable of first hand. I know the lies, the damage, the pain, the heartache, the death, the deceptions. I have seen shatter lives because of it. I have dealt with the harsh realities of what religion can do so maybe I am just a little cynical and a little harsh. Have you dealt with such issues? You are absolutely right I probably could be seen as disrespectful to some. But then so are children who are raped, beaten, let to die because their parents wanted god to cure them when the cure was available at a hospital, etc. so excuse me for having lived in the harsh realty of the fantasy and having seen and live through the harsh reality of religion.

  88. Miss Turtle:

    Maybe I just a little more cyncial today and lashing out because I found out someone I knew for 30 years just committing suicide the other day. Hey, don’t worry though he was religious.

  89. I think this is all a hidden marketing campaign by the real estate people. Much like ten years ago it suddenly became a MUST for all new houses to have double family rooms, “gourmet” kitchens, media rooms, game rooms etc., it will now be a new MUST-have item in any house to have a Cucumber Slicing Room, complete with a code lock released only to male members of the household, and a sign-up sheet on the door recording who was there, when, and slicing what (similar to public bathrooms showing when they’ve been cleaned last.)

  90. Hihihihihiiii, a pheromone activated lock; only men can open The Cucumber Slicing Room!

  91. @Bigstick:

    I am very sorry for your loss and I truly hope that your friend will rest in peace.

  92. Miss turtle
    Thank you. I was a little nasty yesterday. I apologize.

  93. No worries, apologies accepted.

  94. The honeymoon is very important for the couple and I don’t see anything bad with it.

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