Saudi Arabia: Where is Allah?

It seems that many who do believe in God (Allah) are not without questions.  The questions can be freely asked in most parts of the world but to question belief in God or the different fates which befall among people is not condoned publicly in Saudi Arabia.  Saudi Muslims are expected to accept and respect the words of the Quran and make total submission to God (Allah) and whatever fate He has in store.  Yet there are individuals who may not understand or accept certain aspects of Islam.  Why is it so wrong for them to express their questions and views?  Why must there be consequences in an individual’s path towards understanding?

A regular visitor of American Bedu blog uploaded a moving video where a young woman narrates a thought provoking poem.  The poem expresses what many people may think but fear to say out loud.

 

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356 Responses

  1. Wow, I can so relate to some of those thoughts. And, yes, I do voice them quite often. Thanks for sharing.

  2. One would stop wondering after seeing the fanatic bigots like those who typed the top comments in the video, and those who I encountered in your blog.

  3. I do believe in a loving God but also believe that this world is nearing the end of time hence why for many it may seem like God is not there.

  4. @Prosciutto – ‘Because I am a Westerner, I need to believe in the concept of a loving God.’

    What!? What!? WHAT?!! I never got that memo!

  5. She has some great stuff. Religion has nothing to do with faith or god. It is about man and control. Big difference. This is my belief and I like repeating it.

    The whole idea of religion is to take faith which is natural and innate in all of us. We have faith in each other, faith that the sun will come up, faith that one day we will die, faith in finding love, faith in having children, faith in having happiness, faith in humanity, faith in god.

    None of this faith is bound it is just humanity. Faith is an act of humanity. Faith is instinctive within the human race. Our faith when allowed to be naturally human is the purest faith.

    Religion is the rules that bind faith. Religion is not faith. Religion is a control doctrine which inhibits our natural faith. It uses our faith in that which is greater and purer to sullen and dirty us all.

  6. Oh, by the way. You don’t have to agree. I am okay with that.

  7. Where is Allah? Methink that He/She is sitting on His/Her gilded throne, in the eighth heaven, with the preserved original tablet of koran by His/Her bed night stand. I believe He/She reads it every night before bedtime :)-

  8. Prosciutto:

    I really can’t answer that as I have to look at the parameters of the book. I just looked it up. It is not something I have studied.

    However, I do know this:

    1) Doctors have found that when a person’s organ’s have been transplanting into someone else they take on the other person’s characteristic. Some even know the name of their donor without ever being told. Some become gourmet chef’s and hated cooking prior to the organ donation but their donor was a chef. Interesting would you say. The are study this. The theory is that every cell in your body is encoded with memories.

    2) when a group of people come together and chant, hum, pray, sing, or anything of this nature. The level of energy output increase dramatically over just a group listen to a lecture or being in a room. There is a certain power in the collectiveness. Interesting again. They are studying this as well.

  9. Prosciutto:

    I am not talking about the power of prayer per say when I talk about energy output. I am talking about when human come together collectively and concentrate in some form the energy output spikes. In other words, when humans are in groups they can direct in a very primitive manner a energy surge. They are starting to look at this in greater detail. I think it will be fasinating. I think we are part of the univerisal collective. We are a piece of the whole. As energy cannot be created nor destroy we simply fold back into whence we came.

  10. Bigstick are you a hindi or a budist? Do you believe in Narvana?

    I believe in the Lord of Heavens armies. He is a kind, jealous, wonderful, just God. Kind that he send his son “John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Jealous in Exodus 20:3
    “You shall have no other gods before me.
    Wonderful in that he sent his son to pay the price for my sin. Sin is anything that is not right. lie cheat steal lust envy. tell me you haven’t done this. I know I have and if I have just once that is enough to seperate me from him. I am not worthy. Just (justice) in the price for my sin is paid for on the cross. My debt has been paid by the blood of Jesus Christ for my sin. Now I may enter into the holy of holys.

    Romans 14:11
    It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.

    Beleive what you want you have that choice. It is up to you. No skin off my nose. I still love ya.

  11. No. I am a secular agnostic humanist. Glad know you love me.

  12. @AB

    Thanks for the platform. It’s not right, nor is it fair; but hey what can you do?

    @bigstick

    “Glad *to know you love me.”

    Hah, always with the sarcasm, eh?

  13. @Prosciutto – ‘Perhaps I am just more well-read or more filled with hope than you are, Lynn?’

    Most likely both 😉 But I don’t understand why a Modern Westerner (as opposed to an Old Fashioned Westerner?) has to believe in a loving God or ANY kind of God for that matter.

    @Blooming in the sand – ‘Beleive what you want you have that choice. It is up to you. No skin off my nose. I still love ya’

    Which is why I can find more respect for Christianity than I can Islam.

  14. @Harry

    Glad you’ve been frequenting this blog recently! My questions to you are still left unanswered. Where are those Saudi guys that talk the way you described them to talk? I’m not going to bother to dig up the comment, but you mentioned how when you’re at bar in Seattle, you hear them going on about white sluts. I’m very curious. Also, I remember reading that you are a veteran, right?

  15. @JC

    It is part of my personality quirk. I can’t help it. I will say I agree with Lynn on this one. Most Christians are fine with others the way they are. I like that.

  16. @Bigstick,

    “Doctors have found that when a person’s organ’s have been transplanting into someone else they take on the other person’s characteristic. …..”

    What? what peer reviewed study did you find that jewel at?

    I am sorry, but that sounds like such none sense from tabloid journals…

  17. MoQ

    They did a piece on it in “Time” magazine. It was part of science and medicine section. According to the article, doctors have know about this for a while and they have started giving it a lot more validity as so many are experiencing the phenomenon. In fact, I think there have been movies actually based on this informaton in the last decade.

  18. MoQ:

    These are things I find fasinating. They are not what defines my beliefs. They are interesting aspects of our world and what science is now pondering. I like science.

  19. @bigstick,

    Just so you know Time Magazine and many of the over the counter magazines, like to sensationalize stories like this. If they did not provide a reference to a peer reviewed study, most likely they are just going on anecdotal stories. I would take that with a grain of salt as they are in it to sell magazines and feel good stories sell.

    If it is in movies then we are talking fiction aren’t we?

    Remember, Extraordinary claims require extra ordinary evidence. Saying organs carry the personality of the donor is a whopper of a claim. You may as well believe in the supernatural. Just saying!!

  20. @bigstick,

    “These are things I find fasinating. They are not what defines my beliefs. They are interesting aspects of our world and what science is now pondering. I like science.”

    Great that you like science. All what I think is missing here is relying on the wrong sources. Being a skeptic means requiring good evidence before believing in something. Especially if the claim is so big!!

  21. MoQ -‘Just so you know Time Magazine and many of the over the counter magazines, like to sensationalize stories like this. If they did not provide a reference to a pier reviewed study, most likely they are just going on anecdotal stories. I would take that with a grain of salt as they are in it to sell magazines and feel good stories sell.’

    Perhaps you should find the article and read it yourself before judging it? I’m sorry but I think you’ve been hanging out with these Muslims too long. 😉 You are beginning to sound like them.
    Muslim: Where did you get THAT news?
    non-Muslim: CNN (or insert ANY news source)
    Muslim: Ah, well of course! You do know that CNN (or insert ANY source you say) is nothing but a biased blah blah blah.

    But seriously that comment smacked a wee bit of ‘telling people what/how to think’. No? How do you know that he didn’t take that article that fascinated him with a ‘grain of salt’?

  22. @lynn,

    Actually you are the one telling people what to believe.

    Here is the deal at a short bit for you:

    – Dr’s are essentially scientists. They would not provide anything such as “we believe organ recipient will take on the personality of the donor” without a peer reviewed study
    – I asked if time magazine provided a peer reviewed study. That is how science works if you did not receive that memo.
    – bigstick has presented himself as a skeptic. I was surprised that he accepted such claim based on a feel good article. Now He can believe what he wants, but i am debating weather the sources is a correct one.

    Now telling people what to think will be something like this “Organ recipient do not take on the personality of the donor, believe that because MoQ said so” That is different than challenging an ides based on lack of evidence.

    You can bend that accusing finger back to your fist any time now!!!

  23. MoQ
    Dude overkill. The premise is based on how memory is stored. They believe the memories might be stored in a persons cells throughout the body. It is a working theory.

  24. @bigstick,

    Cool, remember you statement originally was you know this. But my fault I mistaken I know for working theory 🙂

    Let’s discuss it when it is more than a working theory. I have serious doubt that memory is stored through out the body.

    It is not over kill to ask for good sources.

  25. @MoQ

    Truth be told. I figured you were dick, but you’re brutally honest. Good on you.

    @Bigstick

    Yup. I agree. (regarding the Christian comment)

    @Lynn

    Hah, I like how you accuse people of sounding Muslim. That’s rich.

  26. @JC,

    You will never see political correct comments from me. Political correct people never accomplish anything they just kick the can down the road;)

  27. let the nonmsuslims keep arguing over gods presence

    keep going ..
    Peopl were not muslim and still were acpeted in the household and lived peacefully shared kitchen used same stove ..

    still people say muslims are bad and hate and kill kafirs. isnt it sad

  28. Blooming in the sand, I do not want somebody else to ”pay for my sins”, lets forget the ridiculous sins people have put together in the bible, and the nasty sins they left out, I think it’s totally immoral to let somebody else pay for your sins.
    I will pay for my own sins thank you.
    This is not an offer, the deal is closed and you have to accept it or you will be tortured for all eternity. Some choice! (If you believe it) That’s not an ”offer” that is blackmail. And I refuse to bow down to this immoral blackmail deal.
    I never liked this deal, not even when I was a small child. I always secretly thought that if I had been there at Gogoltha, I would have done anything in my power to stop the ”sacrifice” of Jesus.
    It’s disgusting and immoral.

    if you love Jesus you should reject it and proclaim nobody needs to be tortured to death for your tiny little ”sins”.

  29. I mean really, Blooming in the sand, what terrible inhumane barbarian bestial crimes have you done in your life that only a human (or rather divine) sacrifice by torture can assuage it?

  30. It seems that many who do believe in God (Allah) are not without questions.

    Questioning is not encouraged by religions. That’s why the religious leaders put so much stress on ”believe” and ”faith”. That’s why they tell you ‘faith” is more important, more laudable that logic, rationality, and critical thinking. The first thing religions try to do when they get a hold over you is stop you from critical thinking. Because they know their religion, any religion, can, in the end, not stand up against critical thinking.
    A lot of people who were truly religious become atheist (to their own surprise) once they take a really in depth critical look at their own religion.

  31. It’s sad that the Muslim world and ksa in particular are not open to honest discussions about Islam Muhammad and even the companions. During the golden age of Islam people where not so dogmatic. Now if you say anything about Muhammad or the qiran you are labeled as a hated or bigot. All humans are given intelligence and need to question things. Too many people turn thirty brains off when it comes to religion.

    Moq.. gotten a little more jaded this year?

  32. @bigstick – I’d love to read about the transplant studies . can you direct me to the article if you have it at hand.

    I have noticed strange things in the course of my careers and my spouses’s but nothing that we couldn’t explain away after some discussions 🙂 not to say that we know everything. there are a lot of unexplainable stuff we see int he hospital. we Just pin it to the fact that we don’t know.

    I’ve never seen a transplant patient take onthe characteristics of the donor, but then again i have neve had in-depth discussions with a patient after their surgery.

    As for cells carrying memory – i need to read studies for that, I wouldn’t try that one past my husband though 🙂

    I do hwever think there is a higher power than us. but i don’t beleive the do this or you’ll go to hell grabage.. and i love love love going to thetemples. especially in s.india. it’s old, old stone carvings and cool and so calm and serene, those architects knew a great deal abotu airflow, acoustics etc., just the fact that the stone pillars are so smooth and so worn out makes it great. imagine sitting in a place built in 3BC and my favorite one built in 12AD… I swear i’ve had a ponding headache and just goingthere and sitting quietly has made it dissapear…yep love those temples..

  33. I also love old places.

  34. @MoQ – ‘bigstick has presented himself as a skeptic. I was surprised that he accepted such claim based on a feel good article’

    Sounded to me as though he only commented on an article that he’d read that he found fascinating. Not even CLOSE to making some wild ‘claim’ and expecting other people to believe it to be true.

    ‘Actually you are the one telling people what to believe’

    How do you figure that? I was just telling people how to ‘BEHAVE’ not what to ‘believe’.

  35. @JC – ‘Hah, I like how you accuse people of sounding Muslim. That’s rich’

    I just find it interesting how similar people of stringent beliefs (pro OR anti religion) argue. Cracks me up! 😀

  36. @Lynn,

    Really this was a discussion between 2 other commentators. You haave not added any value to the discussion. Are you so delusional about your self importance that you think you can speak for bigstick or tell me how to behave?

    Let me clue you in a bit, this is one person you will NEVER be able to tell how to behave.

  37. @onigiri,

    “Moq.. gotten a little more jaded this year?”

    I guess you are right. I find myself yawning much more lately 🙂

  38. MoQ – LOL

    I’m just the voice of moderation here. SOMEone has to try to keep this place civil. Ass! 😉

  39. @Lynn, I guess you need to evaluate if your comments really achieved your goal!!!

  40. @MoQ – Yep, we’ll see. But, I’m not really all that concerned anyway goals schmoals. The fun is in the journey not the end and I DO find it funny when I find such similarities like I did with you and the religious folk that you detest so much. 😉

  41. Lynn, said:
    @Prosciutto – ‘Perhaps I am just more well-read or more filled with hope than you are, Lynn?’

    Most likely both But I don’t understand why a Modern Westerner (as opposed to an Old Fashioned Westerner?) has to believe in a loving God or ANY kind of God for that

    Good question! lol

    Perhaps it is childhood or societal indoctrination? God is probably not the right term for where I am these days. I like the idea of The Force: both dark and light.

    A late, not very religious relative used to wear a cross, mezuzah and the hand of God on a necklace. When asked how come, the answer was: “Insurance.” 😉

    radhaa, said:

    As for cells carrying memory – i need to read studies for that, I wouldn’t try that one past my husband though

    The “second” brain is cellular. If you are in the health care field, I wonder why you have never heard of cellular memory?

    Ask any dancer or other athlete.

    I am very busy today, but will dig up bonafide scientific info regarding the subject for you all later today.

    In the meantime here is something for you all to peruse (although both the Muslims and the other fundamentalists may have to take some remedial courses in science to understand the article.):

    Adult stem cells retain cellular memory of original tissue http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/07/19/adult-stem-cells-retain-cellular-memory-of-original-tissue/

  42. @Prosciutto – ‘Perhaps it is childhood or societal indoctrination?’

    You mean for you, specifically? I was raised here in the ‘west’ by (supposedly) Catholic parents yet I STILL don’t believe that I HAVE to believe in ANYthing. I also know a lot of ‘western’ people that feel the same way. Is there something wrong with us? 🙂

  43. Ya Allah Ya Rahman Ya Raheem Soban Taallah SAW,

    Like Nessreen in her excellent video is asking Why Why Why, I would like to ask the Why questions in the same vein. Hope You don’t mind and sentence to me to hellfire for the rest of my life ….

    Why do all the Misunderstanders of Islam misunderstand Islam in exactly the same way? Why is this misunderstanding of Islam so prevalent, especially among converts, and most especially among reverts?

    Ya Allah, why have You forsaken Your most favored Ummah? What are You doing about sending guidance to these Misunderstanders of Islam to prevent this Misunderstanding of Islam?

    I have personally posed the same questions to these Misunderstanders of Islam. But I have always been told to shut up and they accuse me of being a bigot and an islam-hater. They call me names and holler at me that islam does not welcome any and all critical thinking about koran, mohammed, and his companions; from both muslims and non-muslims.

    Why are such questions deemed “Islamophobic” and impermissible to be asked? Why Why Why?

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Guilty-plea-in-South-Seattle-terror-plot-2389895.php

  44. “Yep, we’ll see. But, I’m not really all that concerned anyway goals schmoals. The fun is in the journey not the end and I DO find it funny when I find such similarities like I did with you and the religious folk that you detest so much. ”

    The similarities are in your mind.

    One of your problems Lynn is you are a judgmental person. And you really do not understand other people as you paint them with your own prejudices.

    Let me explain to you:

    – You do not seem to know why you oppose religions. Or none religious now. You are only in it to argue with no purpose. For me I am a skeptic. If you bring an idea that is out of the ordinary I ask for what proof you have. Whether it is religion, belief in the tooth fairy or memory stored in cells across the body. It is asking for evidence or showing lack of evidence.

    – Yes there is similarities in the fact that I argue my point. But that is where it ends.I base my arguments on evidence not faith. I hope some day you get smart enough to understand that.

    – I do believe religions produce unhealthy thinking, and they effect lives. That includes destroying families. You should know that well. The difference between us is I am able to step up and keep it logical. I argue against religions to insure people know the issues. You turn it into hateful discussions aimed at people not the ideology.

    Now do you really want to continue these discussions which are full of your ugliness and judgement of others.

  45. @lynn,

    By the way I do not detest religious people. I am surrounded by them, many of them I love. I detest bad ideology. However, in your mind you cannot make the separation as you are always going after the people not the ideas.

  46. I think what the article talks about – Vs regrds to remembering the donor’s name etc., is more body memory which is emotional/chemical etc’ stored at a cellular level.– these are still pseudoscientific concepts .

    However i do not claim to understand them. I need medical hypotesis and proof . but that’s ok. it still should be a fun read.

    I do however agree there are many many phenomena that are not explained inthe field of medical science. many of these we do attribute to Miracles. I’m quite ok with that too.

    Anyway the topic here was where is allah and i think 🙂 he/she’s up there laughing at us all – wondering why we are fighting in her name and thinking of how gullible we are trusting an dbeleiving anyone has a direct link to him and his message.
    I beleive in god and i have no questions, i also don’t beleive he/she sent any person or rules forcing me to live my life a certain way. andmy god promised everyone heaven and nirvana..so no worries here.

  47. @MoQ -‘You do not seem to know why you oppose religions’

    Yeah? How do you figure that?

    ‘If you bring an idea that is out of the ordinary I ask for what proof you have’

    The man SAID that it was just something that he’d read and found fascinating (like some people may find religions). You didn’t need to jump on him as if he made some kind of claim of the existence of a the Loch Ness Monster.

    ‘I hope some day you get smart enough to understand that’

    I’m afraid that the similarities do NOT end with just ‘arguing your point’ but HOW you argue said ‘point’. I’m sure when you get ‘smarter’ you will understand THAT. 😉

    ‘You turn it into hateful discussions aimed at people not the ideology.

    Now do you really want to continue these discussions which are full of your ugliness and judgement of others’

    Really? Interesting…LMAO!

  48. ‘However, in your mind you cannot make the separation as you are always going after the people not the ideas’

    Perhaps you could give me an example of that?

  49. “Yeah? How do you figure that?”
    Because your positions are all over the place and you seem to be personal.

    “The man SAID that it was just something that he’d read and found fascinating”

    And the man is capable of answering my questions. When he said that it was just something minor that he ran across, he did not get an argument from me. The only person continuing the argument is you and you should not have been a part of the discussion to begin with. Why is it your business? Do you really think he can’t counter argue?

    “You didn’t need to jump on him as if he made some kind of claim of the existence of a the Loch Ness Monster.”

    I jumped on the idea Lynn. I asked for evidence of a claim. Know the difference.

    Lynn realize this entire line of comments of yours has been a personal attack directed at me. You have not argued against my ideas. It is all personal and you will get it back. You are turning into one ugly judgmental commentator.

  50. Once upon a time in ‘the beginning’ questioning humans like all of us today needed an answer as to why they were here, why was everything here in fact. They had no answer so to ease their troubled minds they decided that a supreme being must have put everything on the earth and in fact created Earth itself. From there everything began to go to hell in a handcart as men decided to use/gain control by creating sets of rules to ensure they maintained control.

    I think I like the ‘animist’ way of believing like our First Nations here in Canada do/did. They believe in a supreme being and respect and honour nature. End of story.

  51. @radhaa,

    http://auromere.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients/

    http://www.brainathlete.com/brain-place-memories-stored/

    http://theophanes.hubpages.com/hub/Cellular-Memories-in-Organ-Transplant-Recipients

    I don’t have that particular article I just know it come out about six months ago in Time magazine. Here are some websites though. Interesting, I know on stem cell research there has been talk of cells having some memory for function. It should be interesting to see where it goes.

    I agree their is much we don’t know, I find it fasinating. I like reading about the different theories. Keeping up with them. I believe there is a natural set of laws for the universe and it’s function as it pertains to matter and energy. We just don’t know what that is yet? The fun part is the exploration, the theories, the questioning, the failures, and the successes. That is what life is all about. Learning about your environment. Isn’t that what children do, we are born, grow and explore our enviroment, then move on to another environment learn it and the cycle continues. If we are lucky we never truly grow-up we only mature to a point of being responsible enough to explore a new environment.

    @MoQ:

    You can be a bit like a pit bull that is looking for a pull toy. Grab it, shake and rip. Has anyone told you about mediatating exercises. It has been know to calm the person, create focus and center oneself.

    @JC

    Yes, he has a tendency to lean in that area of dickdom. I will not hold it against him, some of my best friends lean in that area. The trick is gently (similar to a wrecking ball) give a nudge back to center.

    @Harry

    The reason you can’t ask the hard questions is they are afraid of the answers they may find. It is the answer they always have and that is what if what I believe is really not true; could I be wrong. Denial is often easier, fingerpointing far less gut wrenching, and being a follower far less taxing on the mental acuity. The phobia is not mine, it is theirs. My deal is believe what you want just don’t use it for purposes of control, apartheid, slavery, dictatorship, bigotry, supremacy, hatred, murder, the list goes on.

    @Lynn

    Thanks for your help. Your brassy. I like that. Don’t worry I like sparring with MoQ. I think he likes that too. Yes, he can be a bit militant in his views.

    @ ana.hindi

    I would rather argue with MoQ any day than a militant dogmented religious person. At least he will not bring me proof from a book that can never be proven. One that is poorly written, that contradicts itself whereby verbal acrobats have to be performed which in itself is a miracle anyone believes that, where the god is so forgetfully that he is always changing his instructions, where the words need no interpretation but wait it must be interpreted, with missing verses, devil verses, the list just goes on. At least he will accept a theory and accept that that theory could be wrong. At least his mind can accept other dogma and just not agree. I will ask you and you will bring me a sura, when I ask you again to back it up you bring me another sura. The sura were written by men over a 1000 years ago. It is amazing how much we have learned since then.

  52. @MoQ – ‘Because your positions are all over the place and you seem to be personal’

    Evidence please?

    ‘The only person continuing the argument is you and you should not have been a part of the discussion to begin with.’

    That cracks me UP especially considering that YOU were the one butting in on Big stick and Proscuitto’s conversation (If you believe that it is possible to ‘butt in’ on an open forum such as this). LOL

    ‘I jumped on the idea Lynn. I asked for evidence of a claim. Know the difference.’

    I didn’t see it as that considering that you told him what he, as a skeptic, is supposed to believe. He said in the very first comment about this that is was a THEORY that he’d read about. You to Big stick : ‘Great that you like science. All what I think is missing here is relying on the wrong sources. Being a skeptic means requiring good evidence before believing in something. Especially if the claim is so big!!’

    You are acting like an arrogant ass and I’m calling you on it. Clearly you don’t take well to that so you feel the need to throw out all kinds of unfounded accusations in order to try to ‘discredit’ my opinons. Whatever…

  53. @Moq

    Lynn, has a point. I did state a theory in my first comment.

  54. @Big stick – ‘Don’t worry I like sparring with MoQ.’

    Well, it’s not so much trying to ‘help’ you. I’m sure you can stick up for yourself. I just love pointing out hypocrisy when I see it because often times people can’t see it in themselves. 😉

  55. “Has anyone told you about mediatating exercises. It has been know to calm the person, create focus and center oneself.”

    I am always focused and calm no need for meditation. Actually something like meditation will just bore me to death. You take comments that ask for evidence as militant or angry. I think you just have not been challenged on claims before. I say get used to be challenged if you write as much as you do on this blog. Seriously, what made me argue it as a claim is that you said you know this. I thought that was odd. You explained later that it was just an article not a fact you believe in and it was accepted. I think Lynn makes a sport of picking fights lately and she will continue to push this line…

    I will rad your articles this evening when I have more time…

  56. ‘I think Lynn makes a sport of picking fights lately and she will continue to push this line…’

    What line? That you are an arrogant, hypocritical ass? Yep, I will continue to push that as long as you (or anyone else) continues the behavior. 😉

  57. @ Lynn

    That is fun, isn’t it. I like doing that too.

    @MoQ

    Having a hard time admitting you over- reacted? Re-read the comment you will see theory and that they are studying it. This was the last line of the sentence; “The theory is that every cell in your body is encoded with memories.” Theory implies not proven just looking into it.

  58. @MoQ:

    When you read the articles don’t come back and tell me to prove it. I can’t they are theories. Up front, I will tell you I don’t believe in everything said in the articles. I just find it interesting. I am allowed that, aren’t I?

  59. well I am an organ donor so perhaps someday someone will be experiencing my memories or preferences. Now that would be quite interesting!

  60. @bigstick,

    The word Theory in science is more than a hypothesis. It is a proven hypothesis. Since you are talking about science, it is easy for someone to mistake your comment. Not trying to be picky here, but I am explaining how I read it.

    @Lynn,

    Repeating things over and over to you about what is the difference between personal attacks and arguing an idea is not going to help. You just have to learn that on your own.

    By the way in all my comments to bigstick I have not made one judgement on him. Only the idea that he presented a wild claim. Actually, my view of him is a positive one.

    Regarding your positions: You should go back and review your comments to Muslims. Most of them are personal attacks not arguments faith not against the ideology. Until you change how you view the world with focus on the ideology not the person, you will continue to be the prejudiced judgmental person you are.

    Also, you do seem to measure Islam and Muslims with a different stick than Christianity and .Christians. For someone like me that is hypocritical and shows you really have not evaluated your positions. Rather, act on the emotion of the day.

  61. @Big stick – ‘I am allowed that, aren’t I?’

    Apparently NOT since it does not fall in line with MoQ’s determination of what you, as a skeptic, are allowed to find interesting. Cracks me up since we are WELL aware of how HE feels about people telling him what he is supposed to think/believe. 😉

  62. “What line? That you are an arrogant, hypocritical ass? Yep, I will continue to push that as long as you (or anyone else) continues the behavior.”

    Now you resort to name calling. I figured you cannot help but go there..

    I proved my point. Too emotional 🙂

  63. @bigstick, You are allowed to believe anything you want and make any claims, share thoughts etc.. However, do not get insulted if someone questions it.

    Lynn will have you believe that a person questioning a claim is out to get you or is judging you.You can believe her line or you can believe that people are actually just arguing the point. Note in her world everything is personal. No argument or discussion can rise above personal attacks and remain only on the topic.

  64. Okay, I have to say I love this:

    I am laughing my butt off. The Catholic League announces adopt an “Atheist” campaign. Here is one of the articles. I rolling. It might be a while before I stop laughing. I not sure if I am a baby or the families pet dog.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/12/08/catholic-league-announces-adopt-an-atheist-campaign/

  65. MoQ:

    Damn man. Can’t you just admit that you over-reacted and call it good. Enough, move on. Pointless as we have a consensus.

  66. @bigstick,

    Does that adoption come with financial support? I may consider it if that is the case…

  67. @bigstick,

    I did not over react to Lynn’s attacks, she has been acting like this for a while. I let go a few times with her. She really thinks she can bully people. I had enough of it seriously.

    Regarding your item, I did let go a long time ago on my comment “December 9, 2011 at 9:08 am”. Lynn kept coming back with personal attacks and flaming it every chance she could.

    This one time I will not let her bullying work. Nothing against you bigstick, but she wants to fight. Not every time we will walk away. Goes way before your time here.

  68. @MoQ:

    Not sure. Apparently this is a new initiative so I am sure they haven’t worked out all the bugs. Maybe we should suggest financially support as a dependent.

  69. I am an organ donor too and considering my healthy lifestyle, I expect them to be able to harvest a lot of re-usable parts
    :mrgreen:

    I would love to see 5 or 6 clones coming on here, telling ya’all what’s what, half a year after I am dead
    :wicked:

  70. @MoQ – ‘Repeating things over and over to you about what is the difference between personal attacks and arguing an idea is not going to help. You just have to learn that on your own’

    I’m not asking you to explain the difference. I KNOW the difference. I want you to back up your claims about me.

    I never said that you made a ‘judgement’ on him. I said you tried to tell him what he should believe and how he is supposed to go about it.

    ‘Until you change how you view the world with focus on the ideology not the person, you will continue to be the prejudiced judgmental person you are.’

    You must be confused. I’m pretty sure that I have made it VERY clear on more than one occasion that I think it is the ideology that is fucked up and that people are people and as such they are subject to change or different ways of practicing their faith. I don’t use a different measuring stick at all. Yes, It is my belief that Christianity or Buddhism does not cause the same harm as Islam and it is your belief that all are equally vile. Whatever… My opinion is that I would rather spend the day with (or even be ruled by) a Born Again Christian than a Revert anyday (granted, whichever one it is, in order to enjoy that day it would likely require imbibing LOTS of alcohol). Bottom line, I think a born again Christian is less likely to smite me down (physically) than a Revert.

  71. @ MoQ

    Awe, I see. I am in the middle. Got it. I just want to say, “ouch.” It can be painful in the middle.

  72. bigstick do you think that being adopted as an Atheist means free food and dinners and Christmas presents? Because in that case I am putting myself up for adoption!
    Doesn’t have to be Catholicism, any religion is welcome!

  73. @MoQ – ‘Goes way before your time here’
    Yep, Big stick. It IS true that MoQ has behaved like an arrogant ass in the past.

    Let’s see…delusional, self important, bully and I am SURE in the past you have called me ignorant… and you have the nerve to worry about being called out for being an arrogant ass? LOL That would be like ME being upset that someone calls me a bitch. 😀

  74. @bigstick,You are fine in my book. Just do not fall for her flaming the fires comments. I was only asking about a claim. Seriously, it should have ended there with your clarification answer.

    She is till going on as you notice.

    @Lynn, I really do not have time to explain to you all the judgmental things you do. Perhaps tonight after I finish my work.

    Read your comments and you will see the personal attack.

    You came to this article from another article with the idea that Atheists act like religious. You then proceeded to find a place to attack using that line. I.e. you had a hammer looking for a nail.

    By the way flaming fights between commentators is just in bad taste. Get wiser you are acting like AS used to act. Can’t you see it?

  75. Aafke-Art:

    I don’t know but I welcome all donations. I will be a wayward child, lost in the cold of the night, begging for the light, a little warmth, some food for the belly, some clean clothes, and a pillow to rest my head at night. Awe. I wait for the guiding light, to guide me through my darkest night, and all the while waiting for my savior the benevolent catholic league as they are my knights. To comfort me, to hold me, to love me, to feed me, to scold me in their heart felt attempts to ensure my soul’s heavenly right.

    What do you think. Could this convince them. It’s an original. Do you like it?

  76. @Aafke – I also thought it would be great if there would be feedback!

  77. @MoQ – ‘Perhaps tonight after I finish my work’

    I can hardly wait 😉

    ‘You came to this article from another article with the idea that Atheists act like religious. You then proceeded to find a place to attack using that line. I.e. you had a hammer looking for a nail’

    What the HELL are you talking about? You reminded me of real life conversations where people try to discredit your knowledge/opinion based on THEIR opinion of what constitutes ‘valid’ and, with them, it is guaranteed that if they disagree with what you say they will discredit your source, ALWAYS no matter how respectable that source may be to the rest of the world.

    ‘you are acting like AS used to act. Can’t you see it?’

    OMG, seriously, I was beginning to wonder if perhaps you WERE AS since you appear equally arrogant. I knew you couldn’t see it and that was why I thought to point the fact out to you. 🙂

  78. @ MoQ/Lynn:

    The middle kid is getting out.

  79. Passionate debate is welcome on this forum, personal attacks are not.
    I have read through the comments and I have seen personal attacks.
    I am online this afternoon and I will edit any personal attacks from now on.
    Moderator

  80. I’d like to request that Lynn and MoQ take their dialogue to the debate column.

    Mother Hen Bedu

  81. Carol, there’s nothing to take there.

  82. @Aafke-Art,
    It is sad that you see the world as so dark. It is out of Love that Jesus submitted an paid the price for mankind (women and men). Understanding that a sinful being cannot be in the presence of the Sinless One, someone had to pay the price. This was set done from the beginning. Look at Genesis. A animal was sacrificed for the sin of Adam and Eve to cover there nakedness.
    How do you suppose you will pay for your own sin? What will you do?
    Torture in the case for those who chose not to except the free gift (meaning you don’t have to do a thing but except it) is the absence of God. Here in this world God’s Spirit is present so we don’t know what it would be like to not have his presence with us.
    If you read the OT then you will see Great Love displayed. God does discipline his children and has used others in this but always he called us to him like a husband to his bride (Hosea with Gomer)
    I did only name some of the cleaner sins but in today’s world it doesn’t take much imagination to get to the really bad ones. Though you could live a good life and still sin if you tell just one little lie and then there is that sin. Falling short of the mark is sin.
    Romans 3:23
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    The LORD of Heavens Armies does not want you by blackmail. This is why he has given you the choice. So you say no to him right now. I was where you are now. It was by love that he drew me to him.
    1 John 4:19
    We love because he first loved us.

  83. “I do believe in a loving God…AB”…I would have to take a stab and say that this is not something I have heard a muslim say before. Muslims say god is merciful, forgiving, just, fair etc etc but I don’t recall ever hearing one say he is loving. And of course this is not one of his 99 attributes interestingly enough. He left out the one adjective that would have made him the perfect example of what a god should be. Loving. Not vengeful. Not jealous. Not tempermental. Not petulant. Not egotistical. And most certainly he is not fair.

    To say that you believe in “a” loving god is not the same as saying I believe in “the” loving god…or God….you didn’t specify which god you believe in that is so loving. Now I know that god and allah are the same deity…but christians and muslims like to fight over what those titles mean…christians say allah is a different god all together and muslims say he is God, one and only, same as the christians believe in. (irks the christians to no end to even consider muslims might be worshipping and believing in the same god as them…but what do you expect when “both” gods behave in exactly the same way and are described the same…and both are equally unprovable. Sounds like the same dude to me…but what do I know.

    Which leads me to another thought…several people have asked you if your muslim…and while that is completely between you and “god/God”…I notice you never actually say you are…which doesn’t matter in the least to me but does raise some interesting questions about some of the posts you have put up.

  84. American Bedu having been on chemo and all that you have been through are you still a organ donar? I would have thought the chemo would take you out of being able to. Please tell us more.

  85. Aafke-Art

    Blooming in the sand can adopt you.

  86. Passionate debate is welcome on this forum, personal attacks are not.
    I have read through the comments and I have seen personal attacks.
    I am online this afternoon and I will edit any personal attacks from now on.
    Moderator

    Personal attacks are part and parcel of what constitutes dialogue on this blog. Resident housepets get away with it…others are not given such license…but then if you are not the sort that personally attacks people to make a point…this is not a problem.

  87. I have purposely chosen to refrain from commenting in detail on my belief as I believe that is private to myself.

  88. @ American Bedu:

    Always best when you are the owner of the blog. Keeps things as neutral as possible. You also get the best of both worlds.

  89. @blooming – as long as the organs have not been impacted it is okay to be an organ donor. However because I have been on chemo I can not donate blood. Yet I learned that cancer patients can be bone marrow donors, Again, donating bone marrow depends on the individual’s health and of course, blood counts.

  90. @Blooming in the sand:

    Point of issue:

    “Torture in the case for those who chose not to except the free gift ”

    Question: If this is a gift and it was free then would it imply I can accept it or give away or say no thanks. If this gift is in fact free why then must I be tortured for not accepting it. Doesn’t that negate the whole word “free?”

    Next, what is so loving about a god who tortures?

  91. @Coolred -‘christians say allah is a different god all together and muslims say he is God,’

    That would mean that Christians believe that there could be two (or more) Gods, doesn’t it? I very much doubt that. I think they might say that they don’t ‘recognise’ Allah as described in Islam, as the God that they know but that isn’t the same as thinking that they both exist. I remember a Christian (my old boss) talking about bin Laden and his ilk and she said it was because they ‘don’t have God’ not that their God was hateful or anything, just that they didn’t have ‘him’ because they didn’t believe in ‘him’.

  92. Blooming in the sand, I see the world full of light.
    And if God is omniscient and forgiving and loving and caring and cute, I take it for granted that He/She will forgive me: no human blood sacrifices needed.

    After all, most of my time is spent spreading sweetness and light, I am very sweet, loving, loyal, cute, adorable and nice. And I go out of my way to help, support and be nice to all that lives around me. Actually, I am such a lovely person that I have no doubt that if there is a god after all, She will welcome me with open arms in Paradise.

  93. No comments on my poem. Wow, I thought it was sort of good. Apparently, I over inflated myself.

  94. No answer is actually an answer. I have yet to meet a muslim (or even the ones I havent personally met) that are not ready to brag that they are muslim. They aren’t exactly the sort to keep their faith to themselves. Hell…the women actively show it with their “islamic” dress code. Islam has never been a faith that is kept private.

  95. Lynn…I’ve never heard a christian claim islams god doesnt exist…they always say it’s a different god all together. One of those pre islamic moon gods or something. Not to mention…it would be a hypocritical christian indeed who pointed a finger at the muslim god and said it doesnt exist…when they are hard pressed to prove the existence of their own creation. 😉

  96. @Big stick – Your poem? I guess I missed it.

  97. @ Coolred38

    Thanks, it was that bad. Ego crusher.

  98. @Coolred – Why would a Christian believe in any pre-Islamic moon gods or even the Greek Gods? I really don’t think that they do.

    Susanne and Blooming in the sand? Do you believe that there are more Gods than just ‘God’?

  99. @ Lynn:

    Reposted:

    Aafke-Art:

    I don’t know but I welcome all donations. I will be a wayward child, lost in the cold of the night, begging for the light, a little warmth, some food for the belly, some clean clothes, and a pillow to rest my head at night. Awe. I wait for the guiding light, to guide me through my darkest night, and all the while waiting for my savior the benevolent catholic league as they are my knights. To comfort me, to hold me, to love me, to feed me, to scold me in their heart felt attempts to ensure my soul’s heavenly right

  100. @Big stick – perhaps it is in moderation or something? Seriously, I didn’t see it.

  101. Lynn…where did I say christian believe in them? I said christians claim that a moon god is the god that muslims worship…not THE god that they themselves believe and worship. Got it?

  102. Bigstick, you are bound to get adopted! You need it!

  103. @bigstick…far be it from me to crush someone’s ego…my comment was actually for AB…I forgot to put her name there. I don’t see your poem either.

  104. Okay, one last time. Then I give up and throw the whole attempt at being a poet out the window.

    bigstick, on December 9, 2011 at 9:16 pm said:

    Aafke-Art:

    I don’t know but I welcome all donations. I will be a wayward child, lost in the cold of the night, begging for the light, a little warmth, some food for the belly, some clean clothes, and a pillow to rest my head at night. Awe. I wait for the guiding light, to guide me through my darkest night, and all the while waiting for my savior the benevolent catholic league as they are my knights. To comfort me, to hold me, to love me, to feed me, to scold me in their heart felt attempts to ensure my soul’s heavenly right.

    What do you think. Could this convince them. It’s an original. Do you like it?

  105. @Coolred – ‘Lynn…I’ve never heard a christian claim islams god doesnt exist…they always say it’s a different god all together.’

    How could they say it’s a ‘different’ God if they don’t believe that it is possible for there to be more than one?

    That Christian that I was talking about didn’t talk about ‘their God’ or ‘my God’. I think that that would insinuate that they believe that there is more than one of them which I don’t believe they do. The God that Christians believe in is for everyone (as long as they believe the right things about ‘him’)

  106. Christians don’t have to believe that the muslim god exists to also claim that the ones muslims misguidedly worship is different than the god of the bible. I don’t believe “either” god exists…but I still need to reference them when discussing them…that doesnt make them more alive in my eyes…just needing an identifier.

  107. @Big stick – Oops, sorry, yes I DID read your poem. I guess I just didn’t recognise it as a poem I thought that your words just naturally flowed like beautiful poetry. 🙂

    Y’all should know you don’t have to be Christian to enjoy Christmas with all the trimmings. Shoot, this agnostic is HOSTING Christmas Day for a small army of immediate family (45 or so). Can you just imagine the piles of wrapping paper and food that will be involved that day? And that with barely a Christian among them (I think Mary and Joseph – my brother and his wife) are the most religious in the whole crowd. lol

  108. Bigstick,I see your poem. Creative! 🙂

  109. Re: Allah The Moon God

    “Allah” is from the compound Arabic word “al-ilah” or in english “the god”. Allah was known before Muhammad’s time without a doubt. His name has been found in pre-islamic writings and other archeological finds. At the Kabah in Mecca over 350 gods were worshipped, but it was built especially for the chief deity – the moon god.

    Allah was the personal title of the moon god. Allah was married to the sun goddess. They produced three daughters, whose worship Muhammad would later make the mistake of condoning. The crescent moon symbol of Arabia came from this god.

    Muhammad’s family revered this particular god, and it is this idol that Muhammad declared to be the only true god. So, Allah – far from being the revealed God of the Bible as Muhammad would have us believe – is nothing more than an amplified pagan idol.

    Muhammad did not re-make the pagan god, he simply removed the lower deities from the rites of worship. That is why he never had to explain who Allah was. By definition, an idol converted in the 7th century into a new god cannot be the same God revealed thousands of years earlier to Biblical prophets!

    http://www.shiloahbooks.com/download/Muslim%20History.pdf

  110. I asked my closest Muslim friend what he thinks about Christians and Muslims worshiping the same God and he said some of his friends would say yes; he says no.

    Many (most? some? few?) Christians worship Jesus as God (or believe in some form of his divinity) and Muslims definitely do not. So there is a huge god difference there.

    I don’t think there are numerous gods and goddesses though some do (one of my best blogger friends worships them and is a devotee to Apollo).

    Perhaps instead of saying Muslims and Christians have a different god, we could say they each understand Him differently.

    Although I truly understand where people are coming from when they believe the God of the Bible to be egotistical, vengeful and so forth (I wrestle with some of these thoughts myself), the Bible does present God also as love. And the New Testament says that if you’ve seen Jesus, you’ve seen the Father and Jesus was a pretty compassionate, loving guy for the most part.

    One thing, too, I guess we should define what love is and see if God measures up. Who makes up the definition of and standard of love that we should go by? Maybe we should put God on trial and see if He is love … or not.

  111. Lynn, how fun!

    “And that with barely a Christian among them (I think Mary and Joseph – my brother and his wife) are the most religious in the whole crowd. lol”

    With those names, they’d almost have to be especially at this time of year! 😀

  112. Okay, I always like how God created everything so everything is part of God. So then you have people who worship the sun because it provides light, heat, growth. The sun was made from god and is an extension of god. Go with me here. Then you go down the list rain, bears, etc. All part of god’s making and abilities. You get caught worshipping one of god’s extentions of self and get smited. Talk about tempermental, over sensitive, all knowing (not), brutal. So what is the conclusion obviously there are a number of omnipetent Gods roaming about and God is jealous. He is not as omnipetent as he would like us to believe and very insecure. Ergo, God being man, man having competition with other men, creating a situation of battle, to the victory the spoils. Spoils being death, booty, slavery, wealth, and of course the coveneted I am King, I am the Ruler, I AM GOD. Highly over-inflated ego supreme mortal being.

    Just my contribution to the topic.

  113. Now, I might run over and see if a Catholic will adopt me. I mean, I am house broke (sort of), like my ears scratched, sometimes my stomach, never been good a fetch, good sense of humor, but I am not good at waging my tail. The only problem would be I don’t like cages or chains. Well, that might depend on the purpose of the chains.

    Heck, who knows maybe one of them likes challenges. I can be a challenge now and then. More now and then alot more then. Wish me luck. Maybe, I will get a christmas present or a bowl of food.

  114. Sorry AB I know you do not want this to continue, but every time I come to the blog I get name calling from Lynn. I just have to reply.

    “What line? That you are an arrogant, hypocritical ass? Yep, I will continue to push that as long as you (or anyone else) continues the behavior. ”

    So Lynn, you call people names, you promoted your self as the moderator of behavior, etc. Hmmm that is not arrogant is it? And isn’t calling others name makes you the Ass(hole) in this situation.

    ” That would be like ME being upset that someone calls me a bitch.”

    I am glad we are on agreement on this one.

    Cheers!!

  115. @Bigstick,

    Poem needs some work, but not too bad for being spontaneous.

    After thinking it over, being adopted by a Catholic may not be a good idea. All of that guilt I will feel listening to them will drive me mad 😉

  116. MoQ:

    Dude:

    Ipod – Earplugs

    Pick your poison.

  117. @Susanne – ‘Perhaps instead of saying Muslims and Christians have a different god, we could say they each understand Him differently’

    How did your Muslim friend describe it?

    @Coolred – did you mean it as Susanne says and it is just a different understanding of what the ‘one’ God wants from you or do they mean that they believe that there are several different Gods sitting up there in their individual heavens and you have to pick a path that leads to the right entrance?

    @Susanne – ‘With those names, they’d almost have to be especially at this time of year!’

    They would never miss a Midnight Mass (or even just plain ol Sunday Mass)! Unfortunately they never had any kids. Much to our disappointment I SO wanted a nephew named Jesus even if we aren’t Mexican. 🙂

    @MoQ – CHEERS!! 😉

  118. Okay. I know I am having far too much fun with this whole, “Adopt an Atheist,” thing, but it just cracks me up.

    I love the website on how they portray adopting an atheist. A man lifting a small child cast in a golden background.

    Here is the website:

    http://www.catholicleague.org/

    It kills me. I am still laughing.

  119. Hummm, that shows what they really want though. They don’t want us, grown up atheists, and give us dinner, they want to get at our children, young, gullible, and more easily brainwashed, and ”save” them from a happy world without hell, damnation and torture, and take them into darkness and submission to the invisible, unprovable evil man in the sky who wants blood sacrifice and torture.
    that’s why the sun is setting on that picture

  120. @Big stick – ‘If we hurry, these closeted Christians can celebrate Christmas like the rest of us. As an added bonus, they will no longer be looked upon as people who “believe in nothing, stand for nothing and are good for nothing.”’

    OMG is that thing a joke?! Who is getting that ‘added bonus’? Why does it matter to them how we non believers are ‘looked upon’ and why would WE care if they think that about us? Too funny!

  121. Aafke-Art:

    This part of the letter they wrote about it kills me,

    “Here’s what our campaign entails. We are asking everyone to contact the American Atheist affiliate in his area [click here], letting them know of your interest in “adopting” one of them. All it takes is an e-mail. Let them know of your sincere interest in working with them to uncover their inner self. They may be resistant at first, but eventually they may come to understand that they were Christian all along.”

    All I can think of at this time is that song “If your happy and you knowing clap your hands.”

    Instead:

    If your a Christian and you know it clap you hands, If your a Christian and you know and you really want to show it clap your hands clap your hands.

    Your were born a Christian, always were a Christian, just look inside yourself and find the Christian.

    Isn’t this the same thing muslims say, you were born a muslim but you just didn’t know it?

  122. @ Lynn

    Exactly. Now you know why I am laughing my butt off. The fun that could be had by atheists one and all over this initiative. Yes, the Catholic League has given me that inner warmth, a glow only a knowing one who know religion could feel. I have worked up a sweat laughing myself to death which has creating a feeling warmth that which you obtain from physical exertion (laughing myself to death.)

  123. Bigstick, don’t read it, it’s too confusing, just call them and get yourself invited to dinner!

  124. And there’s always a chance we can help ”them” uncover their ability for logic and waken up their innate morality and win them over to the atheist side. After all, inside every Christian is a rational atheist, they just have forgotten.

  125. @Aafke-‘After all, inside every Christian is a rational atheist, they just have forgotten’

    LOL I like that!

  126. Woah! You guys are on a roll. lol

    Lynn, said:
    @Prosciutto – ‘Perhaps it is childhood or societal indoctrination?’

    You mean for you, specifically? I was raised here in the ‘west’ by (supposedly) Catholic parents yet I STILL don’t believe that I HAVE to believe in ANYthing. I also know a lot of ‘western’ people that feel the same way. Is there something wrong with us?

    We each react to teachings and indoctrination differently. I began the search for meaning in religion in my early/mid teens and was thoroughly disgusted by the time I reached my twenties.

    I believe in a lot of things, chief among them scientifically explained phenomenon, however, organized religions leave me wondering how otherwise intelligent, well educate people can be so gullible and stupid.

    radhaa, said:

    I think what the article talks about – Vs regrds to remembering the donor’s name etc., is more body memory which is emotional/chemical etc’ stored at a cellular level.– these are still pseudoscientific concepts .

    However i do not claim to understand them. I need medical hypotesis and proof . but that’s ok. it still should be a fun read.

    Hang on! You have not read the article in Scientific American, but you claim that these are “pseudoscientific concepts”? You are reading too much Wiki. Body memory IS cellular memory. The body, brain included, is made up of cells. Without cellular memory, the cells could not replicate. Improper cell replication = disease such as cancer. There is plenty of bonafide, peer reviewed scientific literature on cellular memory.

    I would suggest that you or anyone else interested look up Hebbian theory of learning as a basic mechanism for synaptic plasticity. In a nutshell: ”Cells that fire together, wire together.”

    Has no one read the article that I posted?

    I do however agree there are many many phenomena that are not explained inthe field of medical science. many of these we do attribute to Miracles. I’m quite ok with that too.

    I’m not! The only “miracles” are such because humanity simply is not yet able to explain them via science and mathematics.

    Are you a nurse, Radhaa? Because this “miracle” nonsense from someone in the medical field is scary to me. 😮

    Cellular memory is old stuff in science:

    Neurobiology of Learning and Memory

    Properties and Mechanisms of Long-Term Synaptic Plasticity in the Mammalian Brain: Relationships to Learning and Memory http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074742785710015

     

    Polycomb repression: from cellular memory to cellular proliferation and cancer http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304419X02000525

    Short-term and long-term memory in single cells http://www.fasebj.org/content/5/7/2061.short

    Here is a book by the Nobel Prize winning neuropsychiatrist, Eric R. Kandel. His Nobel Prize, received in 2000 in Physiology or Medicine, was for Kadel’s research on the physiological basis of memory.

    If you only read one book on the subject, read Kandel’s. It is not too technical.

    ‪In search of memory: the emergence of a new science of mind‬ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393329372/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/184-7066464-9663320?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=0RKVHEHS6SGJHX5NC95T&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=0393058638

    As a Google book online: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=PFnRwWXzypgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR11&dq=%22cellular+memory%22%2Bathletes&ots=8LLJ7AY2uU&sig=rIVHVbk3R4dNoU1aIOBXbK6c338#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Here is another:

    Memory: From Mind to Molecules http://www.amazon.com/Memory-Mind-Molecules-Larry-Squire/dp/0981519415/ref=pd_sim_b_3

    Wendy, said:

    “I think I like the ‘animist’ way of believing like our First Nations here in Canada do/did. They believe in a supreme being and respect and honour nature. End of story”

    Nature is God, as far as I am concerned.

    I was just thinking about that today, Wendy because I was reading about a number of native people’s festivals for the Holidays. Their respect for Nature and the wholeness of everything makes much more sense to me than some god-head that is akin to a human king/tyrant. The problem with regard to Muslims is that their ideology would destroy the animist cultures all over the world as they have destroyed their own history.

    Allah commands it don’t ya know, because everything before and after Islam is no good. 😉

    Stuck in the 7th century until the Last Day.

  127. Lynn, well, I think he thought our gods were different because of the whole Jesus thing. He agreed that there was too much difference in the two ideas of God for him to consider them the same.

    But he admitted some of his friends would say they were the same. So I guess it just depends on whom you ask.

    ——-

    LOL @ the Jesus thing for Mary and Joseph!

    It’s funny how some cultures have no problem using Jesus as a name, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it in used for a European-American family. Have you? I’ve heard Emmanuel (God with us) and Messiah, however. 🙂

  128. @Susanne – But does he believe that your God exists?

  129. Hmmm, it’s been a while since we had that conversation. I’d say he thought I worshiped a false god. Probably something to do with shirk thrown in the mix.

    And if my God is Jesus then yes he believes Jesus exists, but just as prophet and Messiah, not God.

  130. Interesting topic – If you are a good person and do no harm to anyone who is to say what will become of you after death. The belief in a deity should be up to the individual, Up until the 19608s the Roman Catholic Religion believed that there should be no descent. The only true religion was the Catholic religion but the Pope John XXIIII push the idea of if you are true to what you believe in and do no harm to others you will be saved. What a great thought. If you fear loose of your followers then there can be no descent for fear that you may leave and find a new way . Religion has been a means to split people instead of a means to bring all of use together in all religions there have been splits, but many younger people no longer believe that there is a deity that you have to fear or honor. Maybe they have the right idea.

  131. @proscuito – no I’m not a nurse. Ofcourse I have heard of cellular biology. I ha e not read any science tific study on organ transplant and donor memories. I don’t see anything wrong in saying there are plenty of uneasy plained facts in s ience whit h people attribute to miracles. If its not explained there’s nothibg I can do about that. Don’t let my belief scare you 🙂

  132. radhaa, said:
    @proscuito – no I’m not a nurse. Ofcourse I have heard of cellular biology. I ha e not read any science tific study on organ transplant and donor memories. I don’t see anything wrong in saying there are plenty of uneasy plained facts in s ience whit h people attribute to miracles. If its not explained there’s nothibg I can do about that. Don’t let my belief scare you “

    Gees, I hope you were texting, otherwise I would suspect gin. 😉

    You should read some of the studies and personal accounts. They are compelling.

  133. Bigstick…

    Thanks for that link…

    *SIGH* As a Catholic what can I say? I think it proves that no one religion is free of their fringe elements and their proselytizers. I think this is pure BS. Leave people alone…let others believe or not believe what they like. Don’t force your belief on others.

    As for that young girl…she felt worthless as a Catholic? Hmm.. in my experience it has been a looong time since the fire and brimstone days of the pre vatican era and surrounding that time. She seems far too young to have experienced that. Makes me grateful that with all the Catholic CCD classes I have had and catholic school education, that I was not ever made to feel I am worthless…or that others who are not Catholic are worthless either.

  134. @Oby

    The problem is you never know how the doctrine is taught from one church to another and based upon the text a young girl could sum up that she was nothing particular in view of men. The whole of the church itself whether they will admit it or not diminishes women and whether conscience of it or not ,send a message of a women’s worth. The message is easily processed by a young mind and it is in that they take on the belief and sometimes their self-worth. In her case it caused her to feel less than nothing and she is rightly expressing herself. Religion is a double edge sword. Where it may help one person, it might slay another.

  135. @proscuito – yes that was me typing from my new kindle Fire – both of us have not got used to each other.
    SO no it’s not Gin, I’m partial to white wine 🙂

  136. oby, the catholic church has forgotten nothing of it’s ancient ”fire and brimstone”, look at how they protect and help pedophiles, the current pope (ex-hitler jugend) was actually the main person responsible for supporting pedophile priests, and he has kept that task next to his papal duties. If you look at Africa, where religions are less restricted you see what they really are, killing and suppressing. Forbidding condoms, because AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse, having homosexuals executed etc. etc. Give the Catholic church the chance and they will put us all back into the middle ages. Which is always the goal of Islam as well (to stay on topic). Especially for women; women locked up in the home and no rights to speak of, both religions like to keep women subdued and in a state of virtual slavery.

  137. @Aafke -‘Forbidding condoms, because AIDS is bad, but condoms are worse, having homosexuals executed etc. etc’

    OMG! Aafke, where are Catholics executing homosexuals?

    They didn’t forbid condoms because AIDS is bad, they forbid condoms because, according to them, if you are having sex you are supposed to be doing it with your legal spouse for procreation purposes only. If they aren’t following those rules and are having sex outside of those parameters anyway then why would anyone think that they would follow any ‘Catholic stance’ on condom usage? Seriously. But, supposedly in his book the Pope DOES ok condom use in certain circumstances but I don’t know what those could be.

  138. The pope has said that condoms are not the solution to preventing aids, but that they will only make the problems worse. according to this old virgin, only the teachings of the Catholic church will be of help against the current aids epidemic.
    The Catholic church, the leaders of that church are actively spreading misinformation that condoms actually cause AIDS.
    The official policy of the Catholic church is that condoms should be banned, and the fact that people die because of it is cynically done away with.
    “The current Roman Catholic theology is one that favors death rather than life. [The Vatican’s] ‘better-dead-than-condomed’ position has not been blessed by any of the world’s religions or by common sense. It is flat-earth embarrassing.”
    No matter how many people die, the dogma will be continued.
    The Catholic church is responsible for the deaths of millions of people in Africa. And everywhere else.

    Check this Catholic site in favor of condoms for quotes of Catholic clergy on the issue.
    http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/condomPolicy.htm

    The church doesn t care about suffering and death, they are flat against any kind of contraception.
    They don’t care if millions die of AIDS, they don’t care if people die of starvation because of overpopulation.
    For over 20 years the church has known their no-condom policy kills people in the millions, but they don’t care. Church traditions and position is more important

  139. In all African countries, they have raids and witch trial style torture of gays, fueled by Christianity and Islam. depending on what the major religion is.
    Africa is the place where these nasty dogmas are currently showing their real face, their real dogma, and their true ambitions. and it’s never positive, never constructive, its always suppression, misogyny, torture, witch hunts, and death.
    These are death cults.

  140. Don’t know that I’d say ‘they don’t care’. They DO care, that’s why they want people to not have sex outside of marriage. What kind of hypocrits would they be if they promoted casual sex by promoting ‘protection’ from it’s ills? I am not saying that I agree with them but at least they don’t FORCE anyone to be a Catholic or follow their rules.

  141. ‘In all African countries, they have raids and witch trial style torture of gays, fueled by Christianity and Islam.’

    Sounds to me more like those countries are being run by/full of people that are just attempting to climbing out of the barbarian tribal age so they try to fit these religions into their own barbaric culture. I don’t think that you would find the Pope condoning any of those behaviors BUT I’m sure Islam’s ‘top guy’ would be right there with them.

  142. They are still a force of darkness, their actions in Africa prove it. The fact that we, our secular societies, forced them to behave like decent people here in the west, changes nothing. They still allow people to die of AIDS, they promote people dying of AIDS by telling lies about condoms causing AIDS , they tell people to kill gays, In Africa where there’s nobody to stop them.

    Have you looked at whats going on in places like Uganda? Have you got any idea what is actually happening in Africa right now?
    look it up before you comment about it.

    The next big wars are going to be religious wars in Africa.

  143. And what about marriage? Why the hell should people marry? Because the church says so? That’s silly. Why should people only have sex in marriage? What nonsense. And who in the world doesn’t have sex? Sex is natural, its a natural act. Why should people only have sex in marriage? Why should a church of obsolete dogma have a right to implement their dogma on other people? So you think the Catholic church suddenly has the right to tell people in another continent to only have sex when they are marriage? do you think there’s any place on the planet where people do not have sex outside of marriage?
    Doesn’t exist.
    They certainly haven’t managed to keep the Italians true to their marriage vows all the time. Only in countries where people get killed for having sex outside of marriage do they have some success in curtailing it.
    So telling lies about condoms being the cause of AIDS, while very well knowing people will have sex outside marriage makes the church responsible for millions of dead people, whole families decimated, and millions of orphans left.

    And btw, as you know, priests are supposed not to have sex at all, but apparently they never told them not to have sex with little boys, and when they do the church does everything to protect them.

    So if I were you I would stop trying to defend the Catholic church, you will loose.

  144. The catholic doctrine has been responsible for a number of atrocities and human suffering since inception. The catholic doctrines is the same as the rest of the doctrines. It is about control, supremacy, and divisiveness. In order for a theology to have any standing it will first set down certain rules whereby people agree to them or are indoctrinated into them. Women are vital to this as they supply the needed ammunition to wage war against another theological group. Thus it is paramount to control the woman and her ability to produce. The doctrines flowers up the whole theology to a point to sell that women are being held up high, that they are beloved and they are cherished. When in fact all they are considered is a baby making machine, which generates future legions to fuel their ideology and line their pockets. For men it places them at the head because of physical strength, protection of the woman during pregnancies, protection of children to ensure numbers for future wars. Men are expendable as they are thrust into wars to further the religion’s monolith. That is the basis of most if not all religions.

    The reason why homosexuality is outlawed is because it takes away from the pool of potential warriors or producers. Religion is an ugly beast at its base.

    The moral code and obligations of the religion is not there for the purposes of morality or devotion. It was designed to ensure that people were diverted from the true purpose of the doctrine. It is the old divide and conquer technique masterful crafted into the doctrine. While a person is concentrating on the supposed morality and obligation the doctrine and those who best benefit from it are reaping the benefits at humanities expense.

    If no restraint is provided against any religion it will induce great horror, human suffering and great wars. History is replete with repeated examples of just that situation.

    Religion does not honor either men or women. It has been and always will be a destructive ideology to humanity. Religion at its core is the beast.

  145. I am not trying to defend ANYthing except for the truth. You do your ’cause’ (whatever that is) no justice when you go overboard.

    Show me where the pope condones the ‘raids and witch trial style torture of gays, fueled by Christianity and Islam’ and I will stand corrected. Was I wrong when I said ‘but at least they don’t FORCE anyone to be a Catholic or follow their rules’?

  146. @Bigstick – ‘The reason why homosexuality is outlawed is because it takes away from the pool of potential warriors or producers. Religion is an ugly beast at its base’

    You won’t get any arguments from me on that. BUT that does not mean that it is correct to say that the Catholic Church kills anyone because no one is FORCED to be Catholic.

  147. @ Lynn:

    There have been times when the catholic beast was allowed to roam unfettered, not bound and endorse by the powers of the time and used in this matter. Vigilance against the beast is always wise as it has happened in the past, as it is happening (current forms of islam) in the present, and without restrain will happen in the future. The abrahamic religion is a three headed beast as far as I am concerned at its core. Today people have subdued some of those heads but do not for one moment think that if they are allowed more room they will not bring back the horrors of the past. Remember many use the process of a frog in a water, turn the heat up slowly and the frog never knows it is being cooked to death. Interestingly, there was an article from Malaysia that stated just this by an islamist on how to indoctrinate the populace. Then when you have enough people you force the rest. Make no mistake that this is the process whereby the religions (beasts) are allowed to revive themselves and it’s true nature is once again allowed out in all of it’s horrific glory.

    The thing to do is to tame the beast the best you can, chain it, cherry pick it to benefit humanity and not a group, educate people on critical thinking, reasoning, and then diligently watch it.

  148. If you measure Christianity with the same stick as Islam, it is easy to see how it can be a force for all kinds of evil deeds. It did not take me more than 1 minute search to find enough information about murders and oppression of Gays in Uganda. Including the video below.

    At issue is most people think Christianity has reformed because Christians in the west are subjected to more Moral secular laws. In Africa they behave quite differently. What is worse is that Evangelical churches and the Catholic Orthodoxy are funding such none sense using money collected in the Western countries. Meanwhile Christians and church sympathizers are fully unaware or ignore such activities, and still think only Islam and Muslims are capable of such atrocities.

  149. Bigstick, I think Kristine mentioned this before about your icon looking like the Saudi flag. Now Every time I see you comment I see the flag with a little palm tree sticking in the middle 🙂

  150. I watched your video Moq,it’s sad if you look at 15.18 there is actually a bishop, Christopher Senyonjo, who is threatened with excommunication because of his support for gay people. That’s an Anglican bishop, so the rot is not only in the Catholic church.

    so Lynn, I hope you get it now.
    Here’s another video
    All the nasty religions are having a ball over the backs of the African people, inciting them to violence and murder. Christianity, and Islam. Watch all parts.

  151. @MoQ/Kristine

    Funny. : 0 )

  152. You can get your own avatar at
    http://en.gravatar.com/

  153. I also thought bigstick’s gravatar resembled the Saudi flag…at least the colors! So I wonder just what he is going to choose as his personal gravatar??? Will it have something to do with a stick?

  154. @Bigstick – ‘There have been times when the catholic beast was allowed to roam unfettered’

    @Aafke – ‘so Lynn, I hope you get it now’

    What exactly do you guys want me to ‘get’. I didn’t really read all the comments and videos above because you guys keep trying to preach to the CHOIR!!

    I am not talking about the PAST here so I don’t need any history lessons, thankyouverymuch. I have made only 2 points here.
    1. The Catholic church SHOULD be against condoms because it falls in line with their teachings which call for abstinence outside of marriage. Unless they want to be hypocrits then that is what they must say.
    2. There is no DEATH penalty for people who do not follow Catholic teachings. The worst that can happen is you get kicked out – excommunicated. Big freaking deal, especially since you didn’t want to follow their rules anyway.

    My personal opinions about religions are not relevant to these FACTS.

  155. @Lynn:

    There is a death penalty for apostasy with the Catholic teachings. They have chosen to overlook it and not enforce it.

    Why is it that they can do this for apostasy but not allow condoms. They are already doing what falls outside the line of their teachings for allowing those who leave to live?

    In other words, Lynn, if they can modernize their religion for apostasy why not even further?

    Remember you must tame the beast to benefit humanity. Just because they don’t do it today doesn’t mean they can’t do it tomorrow. It is still part of their doctrine to kill those who leave.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/law_of_apostacy_in_the_bible.htm

    http://attacksonislam.wordpress.com/expansionist-designs/apostasy/

  156. @Big stick – Thanks for sharing but, again, what is your point? Preaching to the choir! If they wanted to make all religions disappear tomorrow I would be celebrating right along with you but for the sake of THIS discussion (the Catholic Church’s stance on condom usage etc) we have to stick to what the Catholic Church says and nothing else. If you want to prove me wrong about how the Catholic church deals with those that leave it (or who don’t follow it’s rules) then you have to provide links to Catholic doctrine.

    From the link you provided:
    ‘In the 20th century, the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law still imposed the sanction of excommunication for those whose rejection of the faith fitted the technical definition of apostasy. ‘

    Which proves what I said. Thank you.

  157. @ Lynn

    I know I am preaching to the choir but you said,

    “The Catholic church SHOULD be against condoms because it falls in line with their teachings which call for abstinence outside of marriage. Unless they want to be hypocrits then that is what they must say.”

    I am saying that if they can stop killing for apostasy which is outside their doctrine they sure can say okay put a condom on and still hold to the other tenets. They are already hypocrits.

  158. @ Lynn

    What this showed is they changed to ex-communication instead of death and still hold to that today.

    “The Bible prescribes death by stoning for apostasy: “You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God..”(Deutronomy;13:10). Apostasy has always been considered as a capital offence in all the religions and political systems of the world, because it is considered as a high treason against the established norms of society. ”

    This is what is actually prescribe by the bible.

  159. @Big stick – Then show me something from the Catholic Church that shows that they ever called for that because THAT is what we are talking about. Not what the Bible might say(Old OR New Testament but I very highly doubt that you would find something like death for apostacy in the New Testament anyway).

    My POINT re: condom support was that if they are having sex outside of marriage then they are already breaking a rule for Catholics and clearly are not too concerned about what the Catholic Church says so WHY does it matter what the Catholic Church says about condoms?

  160. ” WHY does it matter what the Catholic Church says about condoms?”

    It matters, because the church has influence on millions of under educated people in Africa. And the Church did not care about watching them die of a disease that the Church knew can be prevented by using condoms. Members of the Church hierarchies went on a campaign of misinformation specifically aimed at stopping people from using them. That is criminal in my book, but I just happen to be one of those who do not make excuses for religious institutions.

  161. @Lynn

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

    Here are two reference to the fact that you are to follow the laws of the old testament. Clearly the New Testament and Jesus stated to follow the laws of the old testaments. Just because Christians today do not follow the old testament doesn’t mean they are not suppose to.

    Apostasy by christians were punish by death in the past under the NT. History shows this.

    Believe me today many try to spin other portions of the NT to say that they don’t have to adhere to the tenets of the OT. If that is the case why are the 10 commandments still adhered to? I am not saying that, that is a bad thing it isn’t.

    Believe me that is both the beauty and the horror of these books. You can spin them many ways based on how you interrupt or how you weight one passage to the next.

    Again, hypocrisy at its finest.

    We can discuss more tomorrow, I have to go.

  162. @Big stick – If you can’t come up with something from the Catholic Church then just say so. 😉 Repeat after me. Yes, Lynn, you are right, you are ALWAYS right.

    MoQ – If they had influence over them then they wouldn’t be having sex outside of marriage, would they?

  163. @lynn,

    Here is an article to show you the type of lies the Church was passing to people in Africa.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

    You can find many similar articles.this stuff went on for over 20 years you know and literally resulted in the death of millions.

    Remember when I told you, you use a different measuring stick for Islam verses Christianity. This is a good example for you.

    For the Catholic church you are allowing lies like this to uneducated people, who cannot tell if condoms work or not. These people trust their religious leaders words and that trust was broken with deadly effect. You then go with the intellectual acrobatics of that people would not be having sex, when you know full well people will have sex regardless what the church will tell them (it is the nature of the Human animal).

    Now how are you different in this than the Muslim who makes all kinds of excuses about the influence of Wahabbi teaching on converts. That is a debate you had here just a couple of days ago. You were just on the receiving end of the intellectual acrobatic.

    I know you can never be wrong, you will just twist this forever. This time try something different and just think about it with no ego!!!

  164. EGO has nothing to do with this MoQ. The Catholic Church is against condom use because they are against people having sex for reasons other than procreation. Is that a fact or not?

    ‘when you know full well people will have sex regardless what the church will tell them’

    Then they can also use condoms regardless of what the church will tell them. No? But, oops, look at this, the Pope says they CAN use condoms! Damned hypocrit! 😉

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/pope-signals-historic-leap-in-fight-against-aids-condoms-can-be-justified-2139886.html

    ‘After the Pope mentions that the use of condoms could be justified in certain limited cases, such as by prostitutes, Mr Seewald asks: “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” The Pope answers: “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living.”‘

  165. Islam is against apostasy, hence it is against people converting so they should die. Don’t you see the intellectual acrobatics in that? It does not sound any different than your statement above.

    By the way the Catholic Church did not just issue ruling that contraception is wrong, they lied about effectiveness of condoms.They had campaigns, fliers, sermons, etc. promoting a lie because they think their god told them so. Same for a Muslim imam calling for apostate to be killed,because his god told him so.

    Two measuring sticks don’t u think!!!

    Have a good night, hopefully you will get it some day…

  166. ‘Now how are you different in this than the Muslim who makes all kinds of excuses about the influence of Wahabbi teaching on converts’

    Sorry, I don’t understand what you are trying to say? What kind of excuses are you talking about? I don’t know that I have ever heard a Muslim make excuses about the influence of Wahabbi teaching. Islam is what it is and Catholicism is what IT is. I am certainly not making ‘excuses’ for the Catholic Church. Why would I? But facts are facts. If I were to hear someone say that Muslims can have as many wives as they want do you think that I wouldn’t correct them? Does that make me a ‘defender’ of Islam?

  167. ‘Islam is against apostasy, hence it is against people converting so they should die. Don’t you see the intellectual acrobatics in that?’

    Correction: Islam CALLS for death for apostasy (even blasphemy?). So where do the acrobatics come in?

  168. @Lynn,

    I think I said all what is to be said about this. I even drew specific comparisons for you about where you use different measures for Islam vs Christianity. Any more discussion is not going to change things. Others can read and see my points even though you won’t acknowledge it.

    Cheers!!!

  169. ‘I even drew specific comparisons for you about where you use different measures for Islam vs Christianity.’

    Yet I didn’t see how they made any sense. Got anything else? Perhaps someone else who ‘sees your points’ can help me understand?

    You didn’t explain where those intellectual acrobatics came in that I was supposes to see either.

  170. this is a beautiful poem which is also amazingly narrated. it gives me chills that’s why I posted it some time ago on my blog. it’s been written by a lady who is no longer a muslim. she has her own channel with other brilliant poems worth checking out 🙂

  171. Lynn, read your history, the Catholic church has tortured, burned and murdered by the thousands people who wanted to leave, or adapt the religion. Over hundreds of years. when they had the power. This was called ”The Dark Age”. The Dark Ages would not have existed if it wasn’t for the Christian church. Many Islamic countries would be peaceful and prosperous if it wasn’t for Islam.

    Christianity is as nasty as Islam the moment it has the same power. Islamic countries of course are still in the dark ages, when the evil of religion has free sway.
    Christians are now based in predominantly developed countries, secular countries, where they have to cherry pick the nice bits for the sake of survival. Also for the sake of keeping their followers; because the majority of them have evolved far beyond the primitive and barbaric ”morals” of the scriptures, many Christians would reject their religion if the church would go slap bang back to the dark ages.
    But, in Africa, they do get the chance to express their true face, and if you read up a bit in Africa you know what that means.

    So you see the Westborough Baptist church choose the gays as a target, using the book of Deuteronomy, because gays in America are not that much accepted, so they are a weak target. But they do not propagate the other verses of Deuteronomy, like eating prawns is an abomination to the Lord, and picketing fish restaurants, because they know they stand no chance there.

    In the same way you see Muslims giving dawah in the west cherry picking the (obrigated, so not valid) nice verses in the Quran, to gain converts. And twist and sugarcoat the nasty stories. And because these converts are used to age-old Christian tactics like ”out of context” and ”this is a metaphor”, ”dependent on the time it was written”, etc. they apply them to Islam now they’ve converted.

    Of course all these religions are hypocritical, they have to be, for survival.
    And if they are not they are pure evil. It all depends on whether they have enough power.

  172. @Aafke – ‘Lynn, read your history’

    Aafke, read what I wrote! If you HAD you would not be bringing up Westboro Church. This discussion was about the Catholic Church and the CURRENT Pope not some fringe lunatic running his own hate fueled NON Catholic church.

    So, I will repeat what I wrote above:
    ‘I am not talking about the PAST here so I don’t need any history lessons, thankyouverymuch. I have made only 2 points here.
    1. The Catholic church SHOULD be against condoms because it falls in line with their teachings which call for abstinence outside of marriage. Unless they want to be hypocrits then that is what they must say.
    2. There is no DEATH penalty for people who do not follow Catholic teachings. The worst that can happen is you get kicked out – excommunicated. Big freaking deal, especially since you didn’t want to follow their rules anyway.

    My personal opinions about religions are not relevant to these FACTS’

    If you can show me evidence that the Catholic Church calls for death for apostasy then I will stand corrected.

  173. Again with the intellectual acrobatics:

    “1. The Catholic church SHOULD be against condoms because it falls in line with their teachings which call for abstinence outside of marriage.”

    This is regardless if that decision kills millions and regardless of how the church approaches the subject (which includes lies)

    Someone can say something like this:

    Islam Should be against apostasy, because it falls within its teachings of not allowing heretics within the Omah. This is regardless of whether this can result in the killing of people.

    “2. There is no DEATH penalty for people who do not follow Catholic teachings. The worst that can happen is you get kicked out – excommunicated. Big freaking deal, especially since you didn’t want to follow their rules anyway.”

    For a person in Africa with limited education the threat of excommunication is worse than death. It is eternal life in hell.

    Also, The Pope is the definition of a radical. What can be more radical than a man claiming he is infallible and the only representative of God on earth.

    And yes history matters, because it shows a pattern of behavior. We are not always talking ancient history by the way: The support for Nazis was only 70 years ago. The conspiracy to hide the Pedophile acts of priests is recent as in now. The condom issue is Now.

    Lynn, you have 2 measuring sticks. One for Islam and one for Christianity, otherwise you would have got the point a long time ago that the Catholic church does evil by giving misinformation to poor uneducated people. That misinformation results in many of them getting Aids and dying in tremendous suffering. But wait this is the same Church with the idea of suffering can lead to salvation. It all works out in the end very neatly doesn’t it?

    Every religion can explain away its bad behavior, because it complies with its own dogma. Isn’t that what you complain about with Islam?

  174. Well, MoQ I guess you missed my post to you where I said this:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/pope-signals-historic-leap-in-fight-against-aids-condoms-can-be-justified-2139886.html

    ‘After the Pope mentions that the use of condoms could be justified in certain limited cases, such as by prostitutes, Mr Seewald asks: “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” The Pope answers: “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living.”‘

    ‘For a person in Africa with limited education the threat of excommunication is worse than death. It is eternal life in hell.’

    Then they would already have that sentence for having SEX out of wedlock, wouldn’t they?

    ‘Islam Should be against apostasy, because it falls within its teachings of not allowing heretics within the Omah. This is regardless of whether this can result in the killing of people’

    Yep, exactly. Their book is pretty clear on the punishment, is it not?

    Again, like I said, my personal OPINION of religions is irrelevant to the facts. Clearly your personal opinion seems to matter more than actual facts.

  175. OMG! Where have I been for this whole Catholic conversation. I can’t even read all of this now I am so busy, but I’ll be back…but my take on it is this (from the few comments I have read):

    Children should be wanted and considered a blessing by their parents. If parents are wanting a child, they obviously would not use contraception in trying to conceive. A child conceived as a “mistake” or unintentionally is not the way to go IMO if it can be helped. Puts a lot of stress on the family and not everyone can man up and step up to the plate and be happy about an unintended consequence. Particularly if one or both of the parents have been exposed to AIDS. I read somewhere several years ago that it is the men in Africa (regardless of which faith they were) who have a hard time keeping it in their pants and were spreading the disease around and bringing it home to their wives. These women were contracting the disease and dying along with the men leaving many children orphaned. Like whole villages in some cases. I personally think it is crazy, given these situations, ESPECIALLY when a woman has no idea where her husband has been and with whom, that a couple can’t use condoms. I think in some cases a woman’s (and therefore her children’s) lives depend on it and it is imperative that they have the option of condoms if they so choose. It will protect the mother at a minimum and the children will not be orphaned…if the couple wants to have kids and roll the dice STD speaking then take the damn condom off! I understand the idea of procreation and having sex to make kids…BUT in the case of killer disease/starvation/famine/females who have no rights to say no/ etc. condoms should be available. Hell, I think condoms should be available even if there is no disease present and the couple just wants to express their love for each other without having to worry about conceiving.You can’t force anyone to wear them just as you can’t force them not to, but they should be educated and have a CHOICE. And the Catholic church should AT A MINIMUM, show both sides of the coin.

  176. http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/saudi-woman-beheaded-for-practising-sorcery-157345

    Try to find a story like THAT in today’s Catholic world. Or even find me a Catholic priest that would agree with what Saudi Arabia did and I will measure it with my magic measuring stick. 😉

  177. It wouldn’t kill Muslims either who are having way to many children in an already overpopulated world to practice the condom thing either. It could empower women and allow them to say no…or not have a huge brood of children to care for.

  178. @lynn,

    It is a waste of time to go any further. You simply cannot abstract concepts. You want the bads of the Catholics Church to match exactly with the ones of Islam, otherwise Islam is bad but the Catholic church is OK. Hence lack of abstraction capability or is it pure stubbornness.

    In either case,no need to argue anymore I made my points,others can see it even if you choose not to.

  179. @Oby ‘ I personally think it is crazy, given these situations, ESPECIALLY when a woman has no idea where her husband has been and with whom, that a couple can’t use condoms’

    And I guess the Pope agrees with you.

    ‘After the Pope mentions that the use of condoms could be justified in certain limited cases, such as by prostitutes, Mr Seewald asks: “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” The Pope answers: “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living.”

  180. Lynn:

    I am not going to try to explain any further. I have read everyone elses posts. Imagine wall, imagine my head, imagine my head hitting the wall. LOL

  181. But that’s what the pope says in the West! Where all Catholics already use birth control anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sheesh!
    And what does mr pope say in Africa????
    Condoms cause Aids, Condoms are forbidden. people dying of aids is what they deserve for not practicing abstinence.
    Sheesh.
    Bloody hell.
    There’s no cure for stupid.

  182. Bigstick, same here

  183. For anyone that would like to read more about the some interesting points to the bible.

    Go to Atheist Connect – Top 10 things Christians don’t know about the bible. It was written by David Stockin on July 31, 2011. Very interesting. Now I am unable to post the link. So you actually have to go there yourself.

  184. I have a headache.
    I need chocolate.

  185. Apart from God giving us kids as a blessing, he also blessed us with Brains.. somehow we never seem to want to use that blessing !

    All religions like to disuade birth control. int he hope of their numbers surging..

    For a long time i never knew it was a big religious NO NO for men to have a vasectomy 🙂 but then thankfully lots of men of all religions disregard that.there is hope yet.

  186. @MoQ -‘@lynn, It is a waste of time to go any further.’

    Yes it IS because you don’t have anything to stand on. I am talking about FACTS and you want to talk ‘concepts’

    ‘You want the bads of the Catholics Church to match exactly with the ones of Islam,’

    You are the one insisting that I use the same measuring stick. Make up your mind, dude.

    @Big stick – but you SAID we could discuss this tomorrow ;-(

    I guess you couldn’t come up with something from the Catholic Church that calls for death for apostasy so, go ahead and repeat after me. Yes, Lynn, you are right, you are ALWAYS right. You may bang your head against a brick wall while saying that if that would please you 😉

    @Aafke -‘There’s no cure for stupid’

    I hear ya sista!

  187. @radhaa – ‘Apart from God giving us kids as a blessing…’

    That too is debatable. LOL

  188. @Lynn:

    Okay, lynn. Let’s start on a clean slate. Define to me exactly what you want me to prove to you. I ask this just in case somewhere I have missed something.

  189. @Lynn:

    Here is a nice site on some wonderful aspects of the papal and the Roman Catholic Church.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

  190. @Big stick – ‘@Lynn: There is a death penalty for apostasy with the Catholic teachings. They have chosen to overlook it and not enforce it.’

    And you went on to prove that by giving me quotes from the Old Testament that calls for death for apostates. But I ask you to show me something from the current Catholic teachings that calls for death. You can’t find that but I just gave an example of a women who was recently beheaded by Islam for practicing sorcery. THAT is why I say that Islam is worse than Catholicism (lesser of two evils – even though some (MoQ) might refuse to allow me to use the same measuring stick for the two).

  191. @Lynn

    The only reason they are the lessor of two evils currently is because they chose to be. The doctrine gives the right to call for death of the apostates. The difference is that people today would not stand for it.
    There was actually a time when people left christian control areas and entered muslim control areas because they actually were more tolerate and provided better protection to people. It just happens that things have reversed there course. Read the link I provided to see the wonders of the past church legacy. Believe when I tell these religions are of the same clothe.

    I think you like doing this.

  192. Last line should read:

    Believe me when I tell you that these religions are of the same clothe.

  193. Facts rather than concepts:

    – The church lies to people – Fact
    – The Church promises them Hell if they do not accept its dogma – Fact
    – The Church knows condoms can reduce the threat of aids significantly, yet they choose to lie to people about that – Fact
    – Millions of people needlessly contracted aids because of church policies – Fact
    – The current pope was responsible for the cover up of the pedophile scandal, causing more boys to be abused by priests – Fact
    – Fact all religions will explain that their bad acts can be attributed to their dogma, we do not let Islam slide with that excuse, but some how it is Ok for the catholic church – Fact
    – Focusing on one set of facts does not mean other facts do not exist -Fact
    – Being able to abstract concepts out of examples is a mark of intelligence – Fact

  194. @MoQ – ‘The Church knows condoms can reduce the threat of aids significantly, yet they choose to lie to people about that – Fact’

    I already gave a link where the pope ALLOWED the use of condoms it said:

    ‘After the Pope mentions that the use of condoms could be justified in certain limited cases, such as by prostitutes, Mr Seewald asks: “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” The Pope answers: “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living.”‘

    ‘- Millions of people needlessly contracted aids because of church policies – Fact’

    Actually, people needlessly contracted aids precisely because they DIDN’T follow the church’s policy of not.having.sex.out.of.wedlock. No?

    If you care so much about these poor, uneducated Africans then gather up all your Atheist friends and go educate them and pass condoms out to them.

    ‘- Being able to abstract concepts out of examples is a mark of intelligence – Fact’

    Then I must be pretty damned intelligent because I have come up with some pretty concrete conclusions about Atheists based on the examples I have here. 😉

  195. http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

    ‘When it comes to Catholics who are formally guilty of heresy, apostasy or schism, the Church applies the penalty of excommunication’

  196. @Lynn, you are arguing for sake of arguing. You are just an addict.

    “If you care so much about these poor, uneducated Africans then gather up all your Atheist friends and go educate them and pass condoms out to them.”

    I have friends that are atheists, Muslims, Christians, etc. The good thing is the people I gather around me are caring and are of good character. They do donate their money to good causes including providing health services to third world countries. It is a shame that all of this debate is just an opportunity for you to become distasteful in the hopes of scoring some cheep points.

    Lynn, seriously, you were much better before. Now you do not stand for anything, but constant arguing.

  197. @Lynn:

    The problem Lynn is that often times the solutions to the atrocities committed by the religious against their own brethren often times must occur from within the ranks. This is due to the fact that they deem outsiders, no matter how well meaning they are, as an enemy. Maybe you, your enlighten ways, and fellow like minded brethren could go an enlighten them on today’s (ever changing) version of the doctrine.

    By the way no one is saying that they don’t use ex-communication today. What I am saying is they have killed people in the past based up the doctrine for apostasy. Your refusing to acknowledge that point will never make it not true. It only makes you very narrow in you scope of thinking and one who likes seeing their religion through rose colored glasses. Which in fact your own argument leads down a path to the same Islamic blinders that not only refuse to see the past atrocities, the current atrocities, leading to possible greater atrocities.

    “Then I must be pretty damned intelligent because I have come up with some pretty concrete conclusions about Atheists based on the examples I have here.”

    I am glad you have as we are an intelligent, humane, thoughtful bunch. Who rail against the horrors of inhumane doctrines.

    Let me know when you get over the three monkey syndrome.

  198. @MoQ – ‘Lynn, seriously, you were much better before’

    Oh, you mean like when I say something against religions that you agree with? LOL

    I stand for TRUTH MoQ not sensationalizing for the sake of being anti-religion.

    Yes, I think the world would be better off if no religions existed but that’s not going to make me lie about a religion even if that religion sickens me to my core.

    ‘It is a shame that all of this debate is just an opportunity for you to become distasteful in the hopes of scoring some cheep points’

    But I think it does help to show that Atheists can be just as irrational as the uber religious folk. 😉

    Where exactly did I become distasteful? Did I denigrate your intelliigence based on your opinions? No, that would be YOUR typical behavior, wouldn’t it MoQ? LOL

  199. “I stand for TRUTH MoQ not sensationalizing for the sake of being anti-religion.”

    What truth you stand for. I give you a list of facts. You chose to ignore it because there is a different list of facts you collected. Like the 2 are mutually exclusive some how. You ignored the death of millions based on lies.

    Let’s make it simple:

    1) Can you deny the fact that the Catholic Church lied to people about the effectiveness of Condoms?
    2) Now do you think it is OK for them to do that, especially when they know this will actually kill millions? Let me emphasize, we are talking about MILLIONS of people here.
    3) As a human being does the needless suffering of others, not concern you?
    4) Do you really not think the Church is complicit in allowing millions to die?
    5) don’t you think the Pope, has act in the same manner as a criminal when he covered up the pedophile issues resulting in more kids exposed to those pedophile priests? If he was not the pope wouldn’t we be calling for him to stand trial for this cover up?

    TRUTH Lynn, let us see how much of it you really are interested in.

    I made it real simple in numbers with yes and no, because throughout this discussion you have twisted and turned in every corner. If you do not answer directly, we will know you are in this for just argument not for TRUTH as you said.

  200. @Big stick – ‘Your refusing to acknowledge that point will never make it not true.’

    It’s not that I don’t acknowledge that Big stick. It’s just that that is not relevant to this discussion. The punishment for serious violations of Catholic rules is excommunication. It was before the dark ages and it still is today. The fact the the world went a bit bat shit crazy for a period does not change that fact.

    Again, I have made only 2 points here.
    1. The Catholic church SHOULD be against condoms because it falls in line with their teachings which call for abstinence outside of marriage. Unless they want to be hypocrits then that is what they must say.
    2. There is no DEATH penalty for people who do not follow Catholic teachings. The worst that can happen is you get kicked out – excommunicated. Big freaking deal, especially since you didn’t want to follow their rules anyway.

    My personal opinions about religions (that the world would be much better off without them) are not relevant to these FACTS.

  201. @MoQ – ‘I made it real simple in numbers with yes and no, because throughout this discussion you have twisted and turned in every corner. If you do not answer directly, we will know you are in this for just argument not for TRUTH as you said’

    And I responded to you. Perhaps you missed it?

    ‘@MoQ – ‘The Church knows condoms can reduce the threat of aids significantly, yet they choose to lie to people about that – Fact’

    I already gave a link where the pope ALLOWED the use of condoms it said:

    ‘After the Pope mentions that the use of condoms could be justified in certain limited cases, such as by prostitutes, Mr Seewald asks: “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” The Pope answers: “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement towards a different way, a more human way, of living.”‘

    ‘- Millions of people needlessly contracted aids because of church policies – Fact’

    Actually, people needlessly contracted aids precisely because they DIDN’T follow the church’s policy of not.having.sex.out.of.wedlock. No?

    If you care so much about these poor, uneducated Africans then gather up all your Atheist friends and go educate them and pass condoms out to them. (I’d go with you but clearly I don’t care enough ;-))

    ‘- Being able to abstract concepts out of examples is a mark of intelligence – Fact’

    Then I must be pretty damned intelligent because I have come up with some pretty concrete conclusions about Atheists based on the examples I have here.’

    If I didn’t comment on any other ‘fact’ that you posted then I either agreed with you or felt it was not relevant to this discussion.

  202. I think Bigstick said that in Catholic church death is the penaalty for Apostasy…the link is a bit dubious. I had never in my life heard that. I have heard one can get booted out never to be allowed to return, but death for denying Christ? Not heard that or eve in my life taught that. Deuteronomy says so but that was before the NT and Christ supposedly came to change the old laws so I am thinking once Christianity came about that law was tossed.

    Here is a link for the Catholic Encyclopedia and apostasy…I am rushing and read through it quickly. It gives a thumbnail sketch of the punishment for Apsotasy (which btw, there are several forms). The one that would apply to this discussion in particular is the first one or “apostasy a fide”. I could not find anywhere where it call for death. It gives dates and a chronological history of the view of apostasy by the church. I’m thinking coming straight from the horses mouth is the best explanation. gotta run…be back later.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm

  203. Oby:

    That is how it in present today. Not so during the earlier versions of the Roman Catholic Church.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

    Read this link.

  204. Lynn you have not answered any question. I posed them to you in number format with simple yes and no so we do not have misunderstandings. But when we are talking about intellectual acrobatics, we all know yes and no does not allow for that does it?

    Point made. You are not interested in TRUTH as you claimed, otherwise you can answer simple questions. You can go back now to your games 😉

  205. Oby:

    Here is an portion from the Catholic Encyclopedia that talks about the church treating apostasy the same as heretic with the death penalty.

    “When the Roman Empire became Christian, apostates were punished by deprivation of all civil rights. They could not give evidence in a court of law, and could neither bequeath nor inherit property. To induce anyone to apostatize was an offence punishable with death [Theodosian Code, XVI, title 7, De apostatis; title 8, De Judæis; “Corpus juris romani ante-Justinianæi” (Bonn, 1840), 1521 – 1607; Code of Justinian I, title 7, De apostatis l. c. 60, 61]. In the Middle Ages, both civil and canon law classed apostates with heretics; so much so that title 9 of the fifth book of the Decretals of Gregory IX, which treats of apostasy, contains only a secondary provision concerning apostasy a Fide [iv, Friedberg, Corpus juris canonici (Leipzig, 1879-81), II, 790-792]. Boniface VIII however, by a provision which was amended in the sixth book of the Decretals [V, title 2, De h£reticis, 13 (Friedberg, II, 1075)], merely classes apostates with heretics in respect of the penalties which they incur. This decretal, which only mentions apostate Jews by name, was applied indifferently to all. The Inquisition could therefore proceed against them. The Spanish Inquisition was directed, at the end of the fifteenth century, chiefly against apostates, the Maranos, or new Christians, Jews converted by force rather than by conviction; while in 1609 it dealt severely with the Moriscos, or professedly-converted Moors of Spain.”

  206. @MoQ:

    Damn, I should have just left it at imagine a wall, imagine my head, imagine my head hitting the wall.

  207. @bigstick, There is a reason it is called intellectual acrobatics. When someone does not have a logical argument they twist every sentence, introduce topics, etc. The only thing he/she cannot do is answer a yes or no question.

    Now let me get you a pillow before you give yourself a headache hitting that wall 😉

  208. I can answer Moq’;s questions, they are not so difficult (well, to me, they clearly are very difficult for others) that I can’t answer them with a simple short reply. So here goes:

    1) Can you deny the fact that the Catholic Church lied to people about the effectiveness of Condoms?
    No
    2) Now do you think it is OK for them to do that, especially when they know this will actually kill millions? Let me emphasize, we are talking about MILLIONS of people here.
    No, It is wrong to let millions die because of your lies
    3) As a human being does the needless suffering of others, not concern you?
    Yes, Needless suffering does concern me, it should concern everybody
    4) Do you really not think the Church is complicit in allowing millions to die?
    Yes. The Church is complicit, it knowingly lets millions of people die
    5) don’t you think the Pope, has act in the same manner as a criminal when he covered up the pedophile issues resulting in more kids exposed to those pedophile priests? If he was not the pope wouldn’t we be calling for him to stand trial for this cover up?
    Yes. Yes. Yes. The Pope is a criminal for supporting, abetting, hiding and helping known pedophiles, if he was the CEO of a non-religious company he would be toast.

    So, what’s my note?

  209. @MoQ – 1) Can you deny the fact that the Catholic Church lied to people about the effectiveness of Condoms? – I don’t know if it was a LIE or just ignorance. Bottom line is the Pope said they CAN use condoms – I have shown you that over and over again yet you keep ignoring that. Interesting…

    2) Now do you think it is OK for them to do that, especially when they know this will actually kill millions? Let me emphasize, we are talking about MILLIONS of people here. – Considering that I said I don’t know that they ‘lied’ or if they are just ignorant. Lying is NEVER ok in my book. BUT they are consistent in their teaching that abstinance DOES help prevent AIDS and their other teaching against birth control (condoms).

    3) As a human being does the needless suffering of others, not concern you? – Sure it does but we can’t save people from themselves, can we? As I have said before at least they are not FORCED to follow the church’s guidelines.

    4) Do you really not think the Church is complicit in allowing millions to die? – Nope, they made their own choices 1. to be Catholic in the first place and 2. To ignore their church’s warnings again extramarital sex.

    5) don’t you think the Pope, has act in the same manner as a criminal when he covered up the pedophile issues resulting in more kids exposed to those pedophile priests? If he was not the pope wouldn’t we be calling for him to stand trial for this cover up? – I’m sure that if they can get him on it they WILL, Pope or not, and I’ll be right there with you cheering for his guilty verdict. But I don’t know why you would ask me that question anyway since it has no relevance to any points that I made.

    Happy now?

  210. MoQ:

    Thanks, have you had that circular dizzy feeling as well. That we keep going around the same tree over and over and over.

  211. @MoQ – ‘@bigstick, There is a reason it is called intellectual acrobatics. When someone does not have a logical argument they twist every sentence, introduce topics, etc.’

    LOL Who was it that introduced topics? Where in my original 2 points was pedophilia introduced? hmmmmm? I haven’t twisted anything, if I have please point it out to me. But it sure seems that you are attempting a bit of twisting if you are bringing up priests and molestation as if that was ever part of anything I brought up here. Eh? LMAO

  212. Too much intellectual acrobatics does that to your mind. I am not feeling too well either.
    Lynn, you acrobat with the best, and with your callous remarks about people dying you have reached the lowest level.
    The ”bella vita level”.

  213. @Big stick – ‘That we keep going around the same tree over and over and over’

    I know what you mean. But notice that each time around that tree MoQ wants to introduce a new topic – i.e. molestation by priests (note his definition of intellectual acrobatics by the way LOL)

    The thing is, I am not as emotional about this as MoQ seems to be AND I, as a ‘lady of leisure’ have ALL the time in the world to go around that tree with y’all and I am happy to do that in order to ensure that any attempts at twisting don’t take. 😉

  214. Lynn:

    The bottom line is that the church is culpable when it knows its doctrine is creating or preventing the suffering of many. Just because they are teaching in the current doctrine of today doesn’t make them less culpable just accessories to murder, suffering, torture, etc. Same with the Pope accessory to rape. Upholding a doctrine doesn’t excuse death, suffering, or pain inflicted upon others. It just makes you a monster in that words on paper have a higher value than human life.
    I don’t recall bring up the Pope and rape until this post but I will address it here.

  215. @Afke – ‘Lynn, you acrobat with the best, and with your callous remarks about people dying you have reached the lowest level.
    The ”bella vita level”’

    LOL y’all crack me up with your need to denigrate people for their opinions when they don’t mesh with your own. Too funny.

  216. @Big stick – ‘I don’t recall bring up the Pope and rape until this post but I will address it here’

    You didn’t, MoQ did (I guess it was his attempt at intellectual acrobatics per his own definition lol) . Address it all you want but it is stilll irrelevant to MY 2 points that I made VERY clear, over and over again.

    Just as I said before that it is ok for Bella to stick with her beliefs it is ok for the Catholic church to stick to theirs whether I personally approve or agree with what they say or not. Can you get that?

  217. @Lynn,

    #1 I am familiar with the Pope’s note even before you brought it. It was for western audiences, watered down not addressed for aids in Africa, and only for western audiences. It is a fact that made that statement. But it is also a fact that the church did lie about condom effectiveness and had a campaign to stop [people from using them. You did NOT answer the questions by the way.

    I suggest you should research this item before you continue accusing me of sensationalizing the issue. It is OK not to know, but to argue out of ignorance is just not a good trait….

    #2 since you did not know 1 then please do not argue from ignorance….

    #3 you did not answer the question

    #4 You really cannot answer this one without knowing #1 research it please. (and think about the impact of religious lies in a similar way to whether a cleric sending young men to die telling them there would be 72 virgins meeting them in heaven if they blow themselves up. Is the cleric complicit in their dying or not)

    #5 good answer. The reason why I asked you the question is that you said the Pope is not radical and you leave the impression that the church is some how lead by rational good guiding hands. You also asked about fresh missteps by the Church. The fact is these people are as radical about their religion as anybody else. They will protect the institution at all costs, including letting children get abused.

    I am happy you made an attempt. But seriously you argued feverishly while you did not know the answer to the Key questions. That is the reason I think you argue just for the sake of arguing.

    Lynn, I do not deny that Christianity is somewhat better than Islam at this time in history. But I also recognize not all is well when it comes to Africa. I do think in the West the Catholic church has been tamed by secular teaching. They had to adopt and soften their positions. Throughout the process they dragged each position for decades until it was shamefully impossible for them to hold it. This includes things like evolution, condoms, punishing priests, etc. We are not in such great shape with some radical elements of the evangelicals though.

    If you really look at my positions instead of judging before you actually know. You will find that they are rational and are based on facts that I spend a great deal of time learning about.

  218. @Lynn:

    I have made my points. Accept them or not. Your choice. I am getting off the merry go round.

  219. But it is not ok for Bellavita to stick with her beliefs and her immorality, and it’s worse for the Catholic church, Bellavita is a sad person, but she is a victim, the result of indoctrination into immorality.

    It is a lot worse for the Catholic church because it is one of the institutions guilty of corrupting the morality of millions of people, guilty of an unknown number of abused children, guilty of cynically pushing millions of people to an awful death who might still be alive were it not for their criminal lies about condoms.

    There is a huge difference between the institutions guilty of warping and twisting and corrupting people and the people who are their victims, even if they have been made into bad people.

  220. ‘The reason why I asked you the question is that you said the Pope is not radical’

    I did? Perhaps you can quote me on that?

    ‘#1 I am familiar with the Pope’s note even before you brought it. It was for western audiences’

    They why would you go on and on about him not allowing condom use to prevent AIDS? Also, I don’t think it is correct to call it a ‘note’ this article said that it was a ‘book length interview’. So, he gave his opinion, it was published in the Vatican Newspaper now it is up the the priests to get that info out to their parishiners.

    ‘The pontiff made his comments in a book-length interview with the German journalist Peter Seewald, from which the Vatican newspaper ran excerpts yesterday’

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/pope-signals-historic-leap-in-fight-against-aids-condoms-can-be-justified-2139886.html

    ‘The Pope’s statements were greeted with a mixture of condemnation, confusion, and cautious approval by HIV charities working in Africa, where 6,500 people die each day from Aids’

    So they DID get the word. So that should make you happy.

    MoQ – #3 you did not answer the question

    Isn’t it ‘intellectual acrobatics’ to say that someone didn’t answer a question just because you didn’t APPROVE of the answer? LMAO!

  221. “The thing is, I am not as emotional about this as MoQ seems to be AND I, as a ‘lady of leisure’ have ALL the time in the world to go around that tree with y’all and I am happy to do that in order to ensure that any attempts at twisting don’t take. ”

    Lynn, you have known me for 2 years as a writer here and you should know emotions is not a factor in my online comments. I do have a passion for fighting for the truth especially when it impacts people who are less fortunate than myself.

    @bigstick, Read the interview Carol had with me so you can get an idea about my positions (you can search for my name to find it). I hope that will dispel some of the colorful things Lynn is trying to paint me with lately.

  222. MoQ:

    I did read it and found it very informative. I would definitely say I will never (at least at this time) debate the finer points of Islam with you as you would kick my ass. I will however be using you as a source. : 0 )

  223. @Big stick – ‘I have made my points. Accept them or not. Your choice.’

    Yep, same here 😉 But just so’s you know, if I see you say something again like the Catholic church calls for death for apostasy you will have to go around that tree again. 😉

    @Aafke – ‘But it is not ok for Bellavita to stick with her beliefs and her immorality, and it’s worse for the Catholic church, Bellavita is a sad person, but she is a victim, the result of indoctrination into immorality.’

    And you are entitled to that opinion.

    I agree that she is a victim, just like my daughter is. But they are supposedly educated adults that made their decisions for whatever reasons. (much like those that chose Catholicism with it’s ‘condom ban’) So whachagonnado? What can we do to eliminate Islam or other religions from the world?

  224. This blog gets into these tag team shark attacks at times. Rarely the same person twice so it is always interesting to see who the latest target will be.

    Still waiting my turn *shudder*. 😉

  225. This is how I see the mountain that was made out of a molehill between Lynn and Moq. I don’t think Lynn was doing intellectual acrobatics, she was stating how she understood the facts. Moq took it into a value judgement, where Lynn was not arguing from that. I saw Lynn as being neutral.

  226. @Lynn:

    Here your chance Coolred38 wants in. Thanks I needed a way out. Way to take one for the team Coolred38.

  227. @MoQ – ‘you should know emotions is not a factor in my online comments’

    Sure seems like it. You are very passionate about your beliefs against all things religious and it does make you sometimes act as if your emotions are involved. What TRUTH were you fighting for here seemed to me that you were fighting for your ‘opinion’? TRUTH is that it is against the Catholic church’s teachings to use condoms. TRUTH is that the Pope finally went against his own church’s teachings for the sake of health. What else do you want? Another TRUTH is that no one is forced to be Catholic. Get ye on some African Catholic forum and make sure they understand the importance of condoms if they are going to go against their church’s rulings against extramarital sex.

    Another TRUTH is that if caught early and treated properly people are LIVING with AIDS, not dying of it.

  228. @Kristine,

    Your assessment. Do you think Lynn missed my point or did I not explain my position in a matter relevant to the topic of my discussion with Lynn. Always nice to get feedback from, hopefully, a neutral party.

  229. Bigstick, Oh God, do I have to go back and read ALL the comments again? 😉 I went back a bit. It seems like you and Moq are arguing from a values stance, whereas Lynn was neutral. It did make sense what she wrote about the Catholic stance on condom usage. Now, on the other hand, is that the right thing or wrong thing? I didn’t percieve Lynn as arguing the rightness or wrongness of the issue. Does that make sense? And, perhaps where all the lines got mixed up after that point?

  230. “Sure seems like it. You are very passionate about your beliefs against all things religious and it does make you sometimes act as if your emotions are involved. ”

    No Lynn I do not fight for elimination or religion, I fight against its bad dogma. Read all my comments here and you will find that common theme. The reason I maintain that is I know my focus and I maintain it by not getting emotional (seriously, it is not a factor)

    Have you heard me once talk about Buddhism. Do you know why, it is because there is no dogma that allows people to die.

    Now please stop with your ad hominems.

    “Another TRUTH is that if caught early and treated properly people are LIVING with AIDS, not dying of it.”

    Lynn that will be true for richer people that can afford the drugs. Africans cannot. Why not prevent it. It took 20 years for the church even stop the lying. That was my point.

  231. Kristine:

    My argument is they have changed their position in the past such as apostasy to ex-communication. Therefore changing there stance to using condoms and Birth control is no different. They just chose not to. I then provided NT quotes from Mark directing back to OT for death of apostasy and actually provided links on the church’s instructions to in fact to kill over being a heretic/apostates. Showing that in fact this transition did occur in the doctrine of the church. Lynn made the statement that if they changed this stance of condoms they would be hypocrits. My stance is they are already hypocrits so changing this directive will have no effect on them already being hypocrits.

    Yes the value call is I still find them guilty of human suffering due to the doctrine.

    Okay, now that is a sum up. Your assessment?

  232. @MoQ – ‘No Lynn I do not fight for elimination or religion,’

    Well you ought to since ‘dogma’ goes with it. How can you take the dogma out and leave the religion intact? You can’t, not without creating something new all together.

    @ Kristine – THANK YOU! There ARE some rational people left here after all! Whew!! lol

  233. Ok, that recap made it more clear to me now and your stance on the hippocracy. Gosh, I don’t know if I can declare a clear winner, should we go into overtime? 🙂 I totally get the value argument though.

  234. Lynn:

    “Well you ought to since ‘dogma’ goes with it. How can you take the dogma out and leave the religion intact? You can’t, not without creating something new all together.”

    In that respect I agree. However, the church has already taken out much of its dogma to change itself over the years. So the religion that is practiced today has little resemblance of 400 years ago. Thereby, it has opened itself to re-evaluating its doctrine and how it is applied. It still doesn’t change the fact that they are already hypocrits.

  235. “Well you ought to since ‘dogma’ goes with it. ”

    Now for some calm discussion!

    I think we will do just fine if we make people less religious. I do think the west is doing better than the rest of the world for the fact that people became less religious although they hang on to their titles like Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

    You cannot eliminate the dogma. All of the holy books are now published in agreed upon form. The bible and the Quran are here to stay. You won’t be able to change a word of either book. The bad parts will always be there and there will always be a minority that will take it literally.

    However, if you turn people to be less religious or have no religion at all. They will force more secularism and will shame religions to adopt with a reasonable stance. A good example is the Catholic church has accepted evolution finally. The reason is it was hard for them to continue with the creationist story. They were shamed to accept science. This type of thing happened through out history.

    The reason why the fight for the condom is important and that people understand it, is it takes pressure to get good decisions out of the Catholic Church. They eventually do as they are an organization which likes to keep its position of wealth. If they turn people off with issues, they will lose support gradually.

  236. @MoQ – ‘Now for some calm discussion!’

    So you finally admit that you weren’t calm. Good for you! 😉

  237. @Kristine,

    The value argument is moot, at least in my perspective. The reason is if you allow it then every bad thing attributed to an religion can be explained away. Example slaves can be taken in a raid, because the religion allows it as part of its doctrine. Since we already know this, then we are the ones to blame because we allowed the people from the other religion to raid us.

    Philosophically all religions can use the value argument to justify anything they wish to.

    Also remember this debate was not just about the value argument. We are also talking about spreading misinformation. i.e. Telling untruth which is against the values of Catholics.

    I do not want to debate this more. Just wanted to give you the high points.

  238. @Lynn, Raising the volume does not mean being emotional if that is what you meant. I do not believe in the laid back approach. You can easily be driven over if all you do is lay back 😉

  239. @Big stick – You never showed me anything from the ‘Catholic Church’ that supported ‘Death for Apostates’. If you did I’m sorry but I missed it somehow. Please do not quote the Bible here (old OR new) because Catholics follow The Catechism of the Catholic Church. So, make sure if you want to give me some ‘proof’ about the Catholic church you’ll have to get it from there. Please note: Protestants complain that Catholics are wrong in their interpretations perhaps because they don’t rely on the Bible and THAT is why I don’t want the proof to come from there.

  240. No MoQ, I agree that raising the volume does not necessarily mean being emotional but the constant resorting to name calling and unfounded accusations of ‘intellectual acrobatics’ and/or ignorance just because you don’t agree DOES. 😉

  241. I am leaving here, I am putting up my Christmas tree, and I need to find an extension lead for my Christmas star, and I need to repair my nativity stall.

  242. Here is the points again minus NT/OT:

    That is how it in present today. Not so during the earlier versions of the Roman Catholic Church.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

    Here is an portion from the Catholic Encyclopedia that talks about the church treating apostasy the same as heretic with the death penalty.

    “When the Roman Empire became Christian, apostates were punished by deprivation of all civil rights. They could not give evidence in a court of law, and could neither bequeath nor inherit property. To induce anyone to apostatize was an offence punishable with death [Theodosian Code, XVI, title 7, De apostatis; title 8, De Judæis; “Corpus juris romani ante-Justinianæi” (Bonn, 1840), 1521 – 1607; Code of Justinian I, title 7, De apostatis l. c. 60, 61]. In the Middle Ages, both civil and canon law classed apostates with heretics; so much so that title 9 of the fifth book of the Decretals of Gregory IX, which treats of apostasy, contains only a secondary provision concerning apostasy a Fide [iv, Friedberg, Corpus juris canonici (Leipzig, 1879-81), II, 790-792]. Boniface VIII however, by a provision which was amended in the sixth book of the Decretals [V, title 2, De h£reticis, 13 (Friedberg, II, 1075)], merely classes apostates with heretics in respect of the penalties which they incur. This decretal, which only mentions apostate Jews by name, was applied indifferently to all. The Inquisition could therefore proceed against them. The Spanish Inquisition was directed, at the end of the fifteenth century, chiefly against apostates, the Maranos, or new Christians, Jews converted by force rather than by conviction; while in 1609 it dealt severely with the Moriscos, or professedly-converted Moors of Spain.”

    Note: Catholic Encyclopedia – the website I gave you outlines very specifically the horror by the Catholic Church. This portion above is in line with the facts of doctrine used by the Church.

  243. @Big stick – Thank you for that. I’ll read up on it.

  244. I think Moq aafke and Bigstick (who has been a great addition to the regular commentators here) are right. The catholic church has lost its fangs in the modern world. The west will no longer pit up with inquisitions and witch hunts. The Vatican no longer has the political clout it once did so cant take away a persons life for heresy or apostacy which was what the inquisition was about. A lot of people died or were tortured during that period. Sadly just about any religion can be used to enslave and justify unsavory behavior. Yes Africa is the new battleground for Christianity. I lknow the Mormon church has greatly expanded thier missions there.

    Africa has a huge problem with aids and some of that is because of the stance on condoms by the catholic church but there are a slew of other reasons too. Culture and poverty mainly imo.

  245. @Lynn,

    You have to remember calling your argument an intellectual acrobatics is not personal. You chose to make it personal, that is emotional on your part. I attack arguments that is it.

    You see Lynn that term is no different than calling an Argument BS or Hog Wash. It does not relate to you, it relates to the argument and it is more polite that the other 2 terms.

    I used the word ignorance for what it means. There was a question that you admitted you did not know the answer to. That by definition is ignorance of the topic. Ignorance is an English word meaning lack of knowledge. Now if I called you ignorant then you have a point, but this was not the case.

    You need thicker skin especially since you called me arrogant, an Ass and emotional. By the way that is personal not attacking the argument.

    Also, you have to remember you also have a habit of trying to group me with your definition of what an atheist is. For your info, I think that is prejudice, because I try to be my own person. I do not belong to a group (of atheists friends as you called it) nor a club, nor an affiliation, etc. Realize such grouping with no basis of knowledge about how I form my affiliations is prejudice in my book.

    Note I have never tried to group you with anyone. I treat you as an individual. A loud one but never the less your own person 🙂

  246. @onigiri,

    I agree. I also have Mormon friends. They sent their kids on a mission in the US. Although I am not a fan of the church control, I have not seen excessive abuses when it comes to forceful treatments of people outside the faith.

  247. I am going to add my two cents worth here. I find that praying gives me inner peace and a sense of calm. I would not want a life without God in it.

    I was raised Catholic and left the church due to divorce. Oh I could still attend mass but not receive sacraments. Yet I was still asked routinely to give to the church which I could no longer fully belong. That’s what started my long quest about religion.

    I have a sister who remains very faithful and devout to the church. So much so that she says all she needs to know is provided to her through EWTN, the Catholic cable channel. I may not agree with all of her views but I do respect them.

  248. ” Yet I was still asked routinely to give to the church which I could no longer fully belong.”

    Talk about no shame 😉

  249. @Moq – I don’t know why you think I need to get thicker skin? I’m not in the least bothered by anything you, or anyone else says. I know that is what you try to do in the hopes that people will just quit arguing with you. You should know by now that I NEVER will as long as you continue 😉 (damned IRISH! lol)

    ‘You have to remember calling your argument an intellectual acrobatics is not personal’

    Sure, if in fact ‘intellectual acrobatics’ are being used. But when you instist on using that term over and over again even though there is no proof that ‘intellectual acrobatics’ were used IS personal AND seemingly ’emotional’ (an attempt to discredit).

    I don’t have my own personal definition of atheist, MoQ. An atheist is an atheist is an atheist and you have been clear in the past saying that you are, in fact, an atheist. What is wrong with that? Nothing at all. But I’ve noticed that atheists often tend to be as emotional about their (un)beliefs as staunch adherents to a religion. I’m just saying…

  250. LMAO at your attempt to make me upset.

    May be I should get upset and call you an ASS..

  251. @Lynn:

    Have you had time to read the information provided?

  252. @ American Bedu:

    I am not sure if your comment was directed at me but here is my point.

    I have no problem in the belief of God. What I have a problem with is the use of a doctrine whereby it is used to control the masses or society with reckless abandonment or flagrant disregard to the health of the society or to an individual’s worth, self, life, mobility, ability or dignity. A doctrine which guarantees a victor and far more losers by the very nature of its dogma. I will always side with respect of humanity and the health of the society over a nefarious doctrine, incapable of every producing the outcome of a spirual being but is capable of producing, either directly or indirectly, the worst horrors humanity has ever known.

    I fully understand the need for respect but I will never give a doctrine or the belief in such doctrine that has been so instrumental in the suffering and destruction of humanity any such respect to value it over humanity.

    This sums up my position.

    Again, I don’t know if your comment was directed at me. Just giving my position. LOL : 0 )

  253. @MoQ – Why would you assume I was trying to upset you? Calling someone out for being an ass does not require being upset. Well not for me anyway.

    @Big stick – There is no denying the inquisition and witch burnings etc happened. The question is whether or not it was truly a part of the Roman Catholic Church doctrine. Right? I haven’t done any in depth reading on it yet but right away I noticed something that made me say HEY!

    http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_innocentiii.htm

    ‘Pope Innocent III did not see himself merely as a spiritual leader, but also as a temporal ruler. He envisioned a true papal monarchy where the pope served not simply as the Vicar of Christ but also as king with bishops serving under his direct control. Innocent declared the Catholic Church to be a genuine state and, hence, heresy became a crime against the state which could be punished accordingly – both for the spiritual good of the individual as well as the preservation of the Church.’

    Did you notice what I noticed? The rulings ‘technically’ come from the ‘STATE’ (as per a grand creative, self serving twisting done by a sick, power hungry man – next I’d like to research his, and any other popes involved in inquisitions, reputation within the church. I wonder if they are considered as great popes today?) So, since the STATE which is allowed to have different punishments than the church is the one that is punishing them to death etc. That scenario couldn’t possibly happen again and the Catholic Church still only has the original punishment of excommunication as I said. But I’m still going to do more reading up on it. THEN I’m going to work in getting a posthumous pardon for my ancestor. Yeah, yeah I know you are thinking that there is NO way that any of LYNN’S relatives could have possibly been witches but alas it IS true (that they killed him for it that is, I highly doubt he really was a witch) 😉

  254. @Lynn, If I did not know I am talking to an old grumpy person, I could have almost mistaken you for a foul mouth teenager with all the name calling you do.

  255. @Big stick – ‘I fully understand the need for respect but I will never give a doctrine or the belief in such doctrine that has been so instrumental in the suffering and destruction of humanity any such respect to value it over humanity.’

    I agree. But I do respect a person’s right to believe whatever they want just so long as they respect my right to disagree with them.

  256. Lynn:

    Maybe your ancestor should get a medal of honor instead. They might have just been standing up for humanity.

    Also remember back in that timeframe the church and the state where synonymous.

  257. @MoQ – ‘ …with all the name calling you do’

    Are you nuts? AND For.Your.Information I AM an old grumpy person that refuses to grow up. U got a problem wit dat? 😛

  258. Lynn:

    That is the nature of the blogging beast. Where I draw a line is when it produces a substantial human harm.

  259. “I AM an old grumpy person that refuses to grow up.”

    Seriously and all this time I thought I was talking to a grown up. That clears it all up 😉

  260. ‘They might have just been standing up for humanity.’

    Naaaa, that doesn’t sound like MY family. lol The witch scenario is probably more likely now that I think about it 😉

  261. @Lynn

    Your old? Don’t worry you still have a lot of spunk as evident in the blogging session. Your still full of piss and vinager.

  262. ‘Where I draw a line is when it produces a substantial human harm’

    Well, I guess first thing you have to do is define ‘substantial human harm’

    I would agree that not allowing condoms COULD be considered that IF they were under penalty of death(or anything other than excommunication) for not following the ruling. They are free enough to break the law against extramarital sex so they should have no problem breaking another. But that is all a moot point since the Pope DOES allow condom usage in such circumstances. Right?

  263. Old is a relative term Big stick. 😉

  264. Lynn:

    Actually no Lynn. It is not a moot point. The only reason and it was reluctant was to use in cases that was suspected of spreading a STD. It still leaves a women very much in a position of having to bear children she may not be healthy enough to bare or producing so many children that they are guaranteed poverty. In addition, the children produced stand a better chance of dying and neglect because of poor spacing between children and other related poverty issues. They know very well the problems for the families and many of the unfavorable, unhealthy and in some cases deadly outcomes due to its doctrine. The church simply doesn’t give a damn. It cares far more for the doctrine than it does its flock. This is not my only problem with the Catholic church as I have a number of them. I will give you another example. A 9 year old child in Brazil, rape and impregnated by her step-father with twins. The doctors assured the mother of the child she would never be able to carry the babies without it killing all of them. The church’s position was to allow them to all die as that would have been God’s will. The doctor’s with the consent of the mother performed an abortion and the church ex-communicated them all except the step-father.

  265. ‘The doctor’s with the consent of the mother performed an abortion and the church ex-communicated them all’

    Which proves my point. I’m not defending the church. I’m saying that it is not relevant because people are free to do what they want to do just as this mother did. Hence no ‘substantial human harm’. Get what I mean?

  266. Lynn you are seriously missing a lot of points here.

    When you are fighting an epidemic you need to educate. That means fliers, knocking on doors, holding meetings, etc. Think back to the 80’s when we had to teach people they need to use condoms to manage Aids. Even in the US where people are more educated and do not necessarily care what the pope says (in general) it was hard.

    Now think Africa, where there is lack of education, far flung places to get to and no mass media. You have to rely on leadership of the community. That is usually the priests. Here is here the problems starts. Those priests are following church teachings. They did not stop there by talking about holding of until marriage, they actually started spreading lies about condoms. When a health worker tries to educate, villagers will not listen to him, because their local church leaders told them a different story.

    What resulted is the education programs were ineffective as they were facing the lies form the Church. In some places the number of Aids patients reached 40%. That is not just following the church teachings only and not an issue of actually misinformation campaigns. I know you do not want to acknowledge that the Church lied, but it is really easy for you to research this.

    Lynn the church should have actually aided these programs with their resources and not sabotaged them. Regardless of this strange argument thing going on, can’t you open your mind a little, research the topic and then make up your mind.

    Remember also this thing was going on for 2 decades. the Pope’s statement is recent. What is bad about all of this is the church knew of the issues and knew their campaigns are likely killing people. That is intent Lynn.

    How can we sit back and let these people off the hook by saying they are just following their religious teachings. How is that different than an evil immam sending boys to blow themselves up killing people. I can assure you these jerks also think they are following their religious teachings.

  267. Lynn:

    Oh, Lynn. In some communities being ex-communicated from the church is the same as being shunned, ostrasized, or thrown out. It means the loss of your family, your friends, your livelihood, your community, and all that you have known. It strips you of your self worth, dignity, honor, standing and any potential ability in that community. All this to save your child who endured a horrific event. With the final insult that the criminal was spared such an indigity. Is this a choice that anyone should be given? I don’t think, so. The psycholoical impact alone is substantial and the effect community wide are felt. So no, Lynn I don’t agree. There was and still is substantial human harm. Get what I mean?

    Had the mother agree to allow the pregnancy to continue it would have still resulted in substantial human harm.

    Both outcomes provided by the church resulted in such. So, I will have to disagree with you.

  268. ‘When you are fighting an epidemic you need to educate. That means fliers, knocking on doors, holding meetings, etc.’

    Then by all means DO IT! It is not the job of the Catholic Church especially since it is clear that so many have not listened to them anyway (since they are having extramarital, unsafe sex). You may think that they needed to have promoted condom use but they were busy trying to teach abstinence which is what THEY thought was the BEST way to prevent AIDS transmission. Are they idiots? Of course they are but they DO have a solution even if their parishioners don’t heed them.

    ‘I can assure you these jerks also think they are following their religious teachings’

    Yes, I know that MoQ but it is nowhere close to being comparable to promoting abstinence and/or monogamy as a solution to the AIDS epidemic. If they are out spreading AIDS they are doing so AGAINST the teachings of their religion. The suicide bomber IS following his/her religion (as he understands it). That is my opinion, clearly you don’t agree. That’s fine.

  269. Lynn, So is lying about condoms resulting in death of people not against the church teachings.

    You seem not to want to address that or even consider it….

  270. @Big stick – ‘The psycholoical impact alone is substantial and the effect community wide are felt.’

    I’m sure that any psychological impact from ex-communication PALES in comaprison to the psychological impact from being RAPED and impregnanted by your step-father necessitating an abortion of your babies. or the psychological impact of having brought a man into your home that you loved and trusted who violated your child in such a manner. So, no, I am not in the least concerned about them being excommunicated. THAT they can get over.

  271. Lynn:

    I get your point about abstinence or monogamy. I just think it goes far beyond that point. Yes, everyone must answer for the own decisions. However, there are places that will not even sell condoms in the country or community because of such teachings. Were is the choice then.

  272. Lynn:

    I am also at a point where we are just going to say we agree to disagree. That too is fine.

  273. Lynn:

    Don’t forget though to keep looking into the apostasy issue. Should be an interesting read.

  274. ‘You seem not to want to address that or even consider it…’

    How do we know they weren’t just ignorant? But still, i will repeat the church HAS a solution even if their parishioners didn’t follow their guidance.

  275. Yes we so what their solutions lead to…

  276. @big stick – ‘However, there are places that will not even sell condoms in the country or community because of such teachings. Were is the choice then’

    I would love to read about that. Got any links for that?

    re; the apostasy issue. You didn’t comment on that ‘twist’ that I found that I thought proved my point that the church did NOT have the authority to put anyone to death. That is up to the state and you will find that the Catholic church is even against capital punishment imposed by the state (except of course when the evil ones had power and encouraged it).

  277. Lynn:

    Yes I did comment on it. Right after your statement. Where I told you that the church and state were synonomous back in the day. In other words, the church directed the State.

    I will provide you some links tomorrow. I am going to have to go.
    Have a good night.

  278. ‘the church directed the State.’

    Right, in an evil twisting of power but the bottom line was they still CALLED it the ‘state’ as opposed to ‘church’ which leads me to believe that it really never was OK for the ‘church’ to carry out those sentences. If it was it wouldn’t have had to declare itself a ‘state’. Right?

    ‘Innocent declared the Catholic Church to be a genuine state and, hence, heresy became a crime against the state which could be punished accordingly’

  279. @MoQ – ‘Yes we so what their solutions lead to…’

    Which is why you will never find me promoting religion.

  280. The Church has not changed. God’s Rottweiler is at it again:

    POPE BENEDICT XVI SUPPORTS TEACHER ACCUSED OF SHOWING GRAPHIC IMAGES OF APOCALYPSE

    An Italian religious studies teacher has been suspended for depicting the Apocalypse so vividly that it shocked an elementary school girl to tears. The teacher wrote to the Pope, who has sent her an encouraging response…” http://worldcrunch.com/pope-benedict-xvi-supports-teacher-accused-showing-graphic-images-apocalypse/4283

    What is it with these strange ideas that the god who created everything wants to destroy all of creation because s/he is not satisfied with the results?

    Sounds more like a demented artist who is not skilled enough to control the artistic process. 😉

  281. Again Lynn here is the even more narrow portion from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    To induce anyone to apostatize was an offence punishable with death [Theodosian Code, XVI, title 7, De apostatis; title 8, De Judæis; “Corpus juris romani ante-Justinianæi” (Bonn, 1840), 1521 – 1607; Code of Justinian I, title 7, De apostatis l. c. 60, 61]. In the Middle Ages, both civil and canon law classed apostates with heretics; so much so that title 9 of the fifth book of the Decretals of Gregory IX, which treats of apostasy, contains only a secondary provision concerning apostasy a Fide [iv, Friedberg, Corpus juris canonici (Leipzig, 1879-81), II, 790-792]. Boniface VIII however, by a provision which was amended in the sixth book of the Decretals [V, title 2, De h£reticis, 13 (Friedberg, II, 1075)], merely classes apostates with heretics in respect of the penalties which they incur.

    This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

  282. Lynn:

    “I’m sure that any psychological impact from ex-communication PALES in comaprison to the psychological impact from being RAPED and impregnanted by your step-father necessitating an abortion of your babies. or the psychological impact of having brought a man into your home that you loved and trusted who violated your child in such a manner. So, no, I am not in the least concerned about them being excommunicated. THAT they can get over”

    I will tell you this Lynn that people are far more capable of dealing with crisis, violence and misfortunes when they have community and family support. Ex-communication in this matter could take all of that away. It may even put the mother and child into finanicial crisis, homelessness, joblessness, and worst no family who will support you. The significant differences here Lynn on the impact of their lives are tremendous. The act of the rape and the abortion although horrific is a singular event. Not occurring over and over. Yes it will impact all. The ex-communication for such an event has the potential of ensuring a life long punishment to the victim and the distraught mother whose only wish is to save her child. The ex-communication could in fact have far more of a detrimental impact than the criminal act itself.

  283. @ bigstick, I think the excommunication issue is one of culture and I agree that among Muslims it is a larger problem than for secularized Westerners.

    In the West, many have been excommunicated and lost the support of the religious “community” but have survived rather well. The Church no longer is a source of how to live one’s life for a majority of people in the West, whether these go to church or not. The Italians are a prime example of a very Catholic folk disregarding the missives of the pope. Although, among the Amish and the Mennonites excommunication or “shunning” is still a problem because these are closed communities. The children have little knowledge of the outside world and few skills as to how to make their way in it. In that sense, the plight of an apostatized Muslim is similar. One has to be very educated and perhaps even living outside of an Islamic nation to manage. Even people in the West who want to leave Islam are often hunted down by their family and community. It is a life-long burden living without the family or community in which one was raised.

    We in the West, having much smaller families and moving frequently, often far away from family and old friends, are quite used to pulling up stakes and starting anew. America was founded and is sustained by such brave independent people. Immigrants today who come to the U. S. are still such people. Muslims are just learning how to stand on their own feet. It may not take as long as it took Westerners, given the internet and the sense of community, with the like-minded that it provides.

    The Church and Muhammad were very clever in setting up their doctrines: Everyone watches everyone else to make sure that they follow the “rules” laid down by the religious authority. Those who do not are killed or ostracized. Is it any wonder that Muslims who do leave Islam are very quiet about?

    It has often been said that Islam is today in the dark ages, where everything revolved around religion, as were the Europeans hundreds of years ago. The strange thing is that Muslims claim they were so far ahead during the actual dark ages. Contrary to what happened in the West, Islam needs a Reformation before it can have an Enlightenment or a Renaissance. I have my doubts about any of those.

    The prodigious praying to Allah does not seem to have helped one whit to improve the lives of the ummah. Could it be that Allah is dead?

  284. Yes, but this occurred in Brazil not the US. Many countries in South America are very religious and many of their communities do in fact create just the problems I have outlined. In some South American Catholic communities they have the same atmosphere as what you are talking about. Let’s also not limit the intent of what the Catholic church did by location but what its true intent was intended to do as well. Make no mistake that in lessor developed countries the catholic church and its atmosphere can be just as oppressive.

  285. @Big stick – Did that Catholic Encyclopedia explain to you what the ‘Theodosian Code’ is?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Theodosianus

    ‘The Theodosian Code was the first occasion since the Twelve Tables on which a Roman government had attempted by public authority to collect and publish its leges.”[4] The code covers political, socioeconomic, cultural and religious subjects of the fourth and fifth century in the Roman Empire.’

    So again not quite the ‘Catholic Church’ making these laws even if they did have undue influence during that ‘bat shit crazy’ time.

    ‘people are far more capable of dealing with crisis, violence and misfortunes when they have community and family support.’

    Trust me, you will NEVER convince me that it is worse to be excommunicated than killed. I find it very sad indeed if the family and community would abandoned these people because of what they did. But IF they did then I honestly have to say that they are better off without them. You can’t heal with people like that around you anyway.

    BUT, you are confusing excommunication with the shunning as in the the Amish society. Excommunication is not like that at all. Like Carol said, all that happens is you are just not allowed to take communion. Also, if you go to enough confession you can be allowed back.

    Perhaps we can get Jay to weigh in on this since his wife is from Brazil and he lived there for a time. JAY!?

  286. @Lynn

    I never said it was worse to be excommunicated than killed. Where did you get that.

  287. Lynn:

    The point isn’t whether brazil in fact does this but that certain communities do infact create problems particularly those that are extremely religious. I am trying to make a point on the matter not the location.

  288. Lynn:

    You will never convince me that they did not sanction this. Do you think that they are going to come out, yes we help Hilter or are they going to try to hide it. Do you think they came out and said we have problems with our bishops/priest raping kids. No they are going to try to hide it. Do you think that they are going to outright admit we held the gun and pull the trigger in the inquistions? No, they are going to try to hid it. I see a trend here.

    “The Theodosian Code was one of the sources of the Civil Law, the system of Roman Jurisprudence compiled and codified in the Corpus Juris Civilis in a.d. 528–534 under the direction of the Byzantine emperor Justinian. Until the twelfth century, when the Corpus Juris Civilis became known in the West, the Theodosian Code was the only authentic body of civil law in widespread use in Western Europe.”

    Who do you think controlled the secular authorities, the church.

    This first website will explain exactly the purpose of the puppets know as secular authorities.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/inquisition/Chapter14.htm

    http://nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm

    http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/roman_catholic_church_sex_abuse_cases/index.html

  289. @bigstick – Ok, sorry, I meant to say that you will NEVER convince me that excommuniation, the punishment for serious offenses against the church can ever be considered anything at all comparable to the punishment for the same crime in Islam (death). You guys were bothered by the fact that I thought Catholicism isn’t as bad as Islam. Right?

    So then, what was all this sob story about these Brazilians that were excommunicated? Still, all I can say is I am sorry for anyone that is living in such a community. I hope if there IS anyplace like you describe that they will get back in line with what the religion actually calls for (or get rid of it completely).

  290. @Lynn

    No, I have not being trying to convince you that they are as bad as Islam. I can’t really say they are much better at least in the past. I have stated that the church in the past is nothing like it was several hundreds years ago. But that that had everything to do with the fact that people were not going to put up with it and they had to stop the actions or lose the congregation. They are facing that same thing today over the issue of condoms and family planning.

    What I have been trying to get you to understand is that they are already hypocrits, that they have changed their tenets in the past and changing their tenets on condoms and family planning won’t make them any less of a hypocrit. In other words the church has changed it position in the past and it can still change its position in the future and still be the Roman Catholic Church. A church cannot be a church if the people go we are done with this and leave. The church has been many things and many of things are not to stellar in fact down right horrific.

    Do you get it yet?

  291. Lynn:

    should state: the church today is nothing like it was several hundred

  292. But, I thought I pointed out to you that technically it wasn’t the ‘church’ that changed. The church leaders may have manipulated things to make themselves the ‘state’ so that they could punish ‘stately’ since the ‘church’ couldn’t use that punishment. The worst punishment the church has is excommunication. It was like that before the world went ‘bat shit crazy’ and it is like that again.

    But also, remember that it no longer matters if they’ve already been hypocrits. The Pope HAS now allowed condoms for the sake of preserving health.

    ‘A church cannot be a church if the people go we are done with this and leave’

    That WOULD be best, no? 😉

  293. “That WOULD be best, no? ”

    Let’s say we agree here and get off this merry go round and find something else to go crazy on?

    How bout it, game for something different?

  294. About damned time! LOL

  295. @ Lynn

    Great. LOL Now the fun is to see where our next adventure takes us. Can’t wait.

  296. @bigstick,

    Quit man, just call it a draw before you get get your leg bit off!!!

  297. @ MoQ

    Funny.

    Thanks for the support. (hahaha). : 0 )

    Don’t worry I got the last line.

  298. @Bigstick – It’s Yes, Lynn, you are right, you are ALWAYS right! 😛

  299. Lynn:

    You are so funny. Don’t let anyone tell you, that you don’t have a sense of humor. I am rolling. LOL

  300. LOL

  301. @bigstick…

    It has taken me forever to get back. I am traveling out of town in a couple of days for a few weeks and all the chores leading up to that are keeping me hopping. Between packing, shopping, Cooking two weeks worth of food for the hubster (can’t come due to work),wrapping gifts for family members, etc. I have not been able to get back.

    Thank you for the links and I saw that the one I posted did talk about heretics/death for apostasy…see? I told you I read it fast…so fast I missed that point! 🙂 I still have not read them in depth but I wanted to at least say this:

    I found that informative….obviously I, and everyone else knows about the Inquisitions. Horrible piece of history, that was. I always thought that it was a time in the Church when some insane power hungry Pope sent his “troops” out to gain more power. Not unlike a crazy ayatollah or some major cleric in the Muslim world who issues a nutty fatwah. I did not realize that it was written in the Catholic doctrine for awhile that death was for apostasy. So that was good to learn.

    I understand Lynn’s point that the church does have a solution for AIDs and that is abstention…works miracles for unwanted pregnancy too! LOL! And I do understand the church ,in order to live by it’s guiding principles would advocate that method. I think the question to ask is, considering the extreme circumstances which would be the MORE moral choice? Abstinence or contraception, in this case condoms to protect against STD’s? The church’s stance on abstinence in normal circumstances IMO is not necessarily a bad one. Most parents would advocate that for their children if given their druthers. Waiting won’t kill anyone. And the church also says that procreation is to create life and all life (or potential life) is precious. That it has sanctity. That is true, but so do lives ALREADY being lived have sanctity and the children of those people too. The church SHOULD be responsible for those people first. However, given the circumstances and the nature of men (they are always the trouble makers in this world, those dogs!) despite the fact that it is not church doctrine they should advocate condoms for these situations. (though personally I think it is fine whenever…disease or not). Lynn says the Pope has said he says it is fine and she has posted links for that. I think the Pope needs to go further. MoQ is saying that they are lying. I saw that article. IMO it is reprehensible to lie to people about condoms CAUSING AIDs. It is a flagrant sin going against the sanctity of life, lives that already exist and that position CANNOT be supported. I hope it gets exposed. Lying about it is different IMO than saying abstinance is the way to go. By lying about it and scaring people it is as good as holding a gun to their heads while they roll the STD dice. If they know that condoms make it safe to have sex and they choose to go without it…then that is their choice. They have been educated and are taking matters into their own hands. By lying the church is tying the hands of aid workers in these countries to help these people because the people look to the church and God for answers.

    In the end it makes no logical sense to me. The church wants to increase it’s membership yet it lies about what causes death and disease? Seems phenomenally counterintuitive to me. Unless it is looked at like business people look at things…Ie: a lawsuit is just the cost of doing business. Death is the cost of rolling the dice to more potential followers. It is really hard for me to wrap my brain around that position.

    I think of it this way which is a moral thought process rather than a religious one. People should always strive to make moral choices. In this case, not having sex indiscriminately and cheating on your spouse and bringing home deadly diseases. I think that if everyone did what they were supposed to (fidelity) AIDs would not be rampant in Africa. But people don’t, do they? So the question then becomes should they have to die for those choices and should their children have to pay the price of their immorality?

    I don’t think changing the laws on condoms would necessarily make the Church hypocrites. I know people say that we should fit our lives into the teachings of our faith. To a large extent I think that is true as most churches one would hope, would advocate moral ethics. But I also believe faith can be fluid. These books were written centuries ago. Life is not static and faith should fit hand to glove. Not make living a chore or difficult. Making moral choices (don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t cheat on spouse, love God etc…) these are principles that can stand the test of time. Other things can grow and change as needed. Does that make me a hypocrite? In some eyes I am sure it does. But particulars should be fluid as religion should serve people and make people want to do the right thing and make moral choices rather than force them into decisions that can kill them or put them in harm’s way.

  302. -The church knows people will be having sex, besides why shouldn’t they, sex if fun.
    -The Church lies and makes people in Africa believe that condoms cause Aids instead of preventing it.
    -The Church leaders are a bunch of hypocrite bastards and responsible for millions dying and suffering.

    And anybody who claims anything else is an apologist for the catholic church, and anything they can bring to bear can only be either completely immoral or a display of Intellectual Acrobatics.
    Which is also immoral.
    Nothing else can or needs to be said on this subject.

    Qed

  303. @Oby

    I like your post. I object to their doctrine because of the burden it places on the family. It places women as nothing more than a breeding machine and that the sexual act is meant for no other purpose. I don’t care how someone tries to spin it ;this is the core and basis of thier message. Men and women are to serve as production machines for the purposes of out producing the other side in order to worship the doctrine (God).

    Remember though I believe all doctrines were man-made. I just find it disconcerting that mankind was given intelligence, determination, curosity, and so much more. To me this is the greatest gift that any being could have been provided. Then if this God gave us such an instruct to throw all those qualities away. A God who crafted us with these qualities and then say I screwed up giving you this. Now with all those qualities that I have giving, the world and universe to explore, with so much to question and look forward to in exploring, all the wonder of the gift of humanity that I have provided to you – just forget it. Now follow this doctrine, don’t think about, don’t explore, forget your humanity, forget your wondering, forget everything, just follow these words. You are a man with one intent to toll and suffer, you are a woman with one intent to suffer child birth and under subjugation to the man. Now go forth and produce more of you in droves so that they can have the same pain. Have all of them pay respect, utter devotion to me for providing you and yours with hell on earth. Build legions to worship my gift to you by shackling all that I made you to be and then figure out,oops, I screwed up. So now you and yours will pay the price for my blunder. I just got to wonder why people believe that God would really wants this instead of it being a doctrine produced by a man or a group of men who took the greatest gifts; giving to humanity and shackled it into a burdensome hell on earth. Now people can delude themselves with these doctrines all day long on trying to find that best parts of them in order to make a somewhat happy life for themselves. However, they do so by not following all of the instructions of the doctrine. I tend to think that it just would be better to deal with the reality of who we actually are, face ourselves and explore our humanity.

  304. One aspect of the Catholic church I find difficult to understand, let alone accept is on the issue of annulling a marriage. I guess I can see that if the marriage had not been consummated. Yet, giving a personal example, one of my sister’s and her husband with two children had been divorced for years. They were both raised Catholic. When her former husband decided to remarry, he had his marriage to my sister annulled (even though they were already divorced) so he could remarry in the Catholic church. Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?

  305. @AB

    YES! You got it.

  306. I think that it is very important to distinguish between the teachings of Christ and Church doctrine.

    The fact is that what Jesus taught is good, moral stuff while what Church doctrine advocates is all about power over others.

    This is why the Church lost power. The moment the populace could read the Bible for themselves, with the advent of printing, that was when the power of the Church began to slip. The Catholic Church has terrible problems today keeping congregants and getting priests because of their draconian, anti-human, unChristian positions. Many parishes have closed. The Church is going broke having to pay through the nose for the abuse scandals. Couldn’t happen to a worthier institution.

    I wait for the day that all religions fade away and only the teachings of those recognized as moral, legitimate teachers of goodness remain. That should take an eternity.

  307. @ Prosciutto

    One can never attain this when the freedom to question and think are not allowed. This is why I stand firmly against blasphemy laws.

  308. I thought you could get a marriage annulled only if one party was was coerced or they were not married in a catholic church.

    I agree after being married for years and having 2 kids why call it annullment 🙂

  309. Anullments are rather like the indulgences that were sold by the Church in the past. Such hypocrisy is brought on the Protestant Reformation and also the fundamentalist extremists.

    Different sides of the same coin.

    What I find so fascinating/repelling from both Islam and Christianity is the idea that one could be an axe murderer or suicide jihadi, but ask God for forgiveness and hey—no problem getting into the celestial brothel or a pair of cloud sitting wings.

    ” An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1).

    To see the biblical foundations for indulgences, see the Catholic Answers tract A Primer on Indulgences: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/primer-on-indulgences

    Is it not interesting that the Church is named as a “she,” yet women cannot become ordained or do any job in the Church other than serving as servants of men.

  310. @Aafke – ‘And anybody who claims anything else is an apologist for the catholic church, and anything they can bring to bear can only be either completely immoral or a display of Intellectual Acrobatics.
    Which is also immoral.
    Nothing else can or needs to be said on this subject’

    I’M the Queen around here so I’LL do the deciding on what needs to be said on this subject. M’kay?! 😛 lol

    ‘The Church leaders are a bunch of hypocrite bastards and responsible for millions dying and suffering’

    At the risk of seeming to be an ‘aplogist for the Catholic Church’ there IS something to be said for personal responsibility. Is there not? Also, I haven’t been convinced (haven’t seen the evidence) that they LIED. I would like to see everything that they said regarding condoms IN context. But, still, I can’t imagine that their WHOLE education about life is restricted to what they hear from their priests. If it is I would hope that some other groups will do a mission to their communities or something. I mean, good LORD, how can we allow such ignorance to go on without shouting about it like we do when it is about the Saudi women not being able to drive?

    @big stick – ‘and that the sexual act is meant for no other purpose.’

    Yep, that is what they think. Something to suffer through for God’s sake. LOL

    @Carol – ‘he had his marriage to my sister annulled’

    I think in the past an annulment did have serious retrictions and it was not easy to get where now all you have to do is have enough money. They are all just money making operations. I also think that it was not common for a catholic widow/er to remarry either based on the same thing. What God has joined together let no man put asunder! 🙂

    @prosciutto – ‘I wait for the day that all religions fade away and only the teachings of those recognized as moral, legitimate teachers of goodness remain. That should take an eternity’

    AMEN to that! lol

    @radhaa – If they didn’t get married in the Catholic church then, in the eyes of the church there is nothing to annul but they are going to hell because they have been living ‘in sin’ lol.

  311. Regarding the sexual act being only for pro-creation according the Catholic Church. That is completely against Nature and science. Humanity is the only species that can have sex when the female is not in estrus. Rape is only known among the human species and some primates.

    God must have meant for humanity to enjoy sex more than just the few times it takes for procreation.

  312. @Prosciutto – ‘That is completely against Nature and science.’

    You won’t get any argument from me on that BUT that does not change what the Catholic Church believes/teaches, does it?

  313. @lynn – oh ok, i’m not on the up and up regarding annullment .
    but i do know about livingin Sin, apparently acco to one mosque me and F have been living in sin for the past 2+ decades 🙂
    coming from a background where “no marriage – no touch” rules the roost , i feel decidedly giddy and somehow excited to see my relationship as some secret sinfull affair 🙂 not just a boring married life with 2 kids and associated issues…

    So i’m quite happy to be living in Sin 🙂 excited actually. but all it takes for us to erase my sinful life and reserve F a place in heaven is me saying the few worlds in arabic and convery and poof no more hell for F.. see te power i hold … amazing.

  314. @radhaa – ‘see te power i hold’

    LOL a woman after my own heart! I’m living in sin too but, alas,there’s no one to care 😦

  315. Prosciutto…

    My understanding all my life of sex and the Catholic Church (dying to say that! LOL) is that the church doesn’t see sex and women ONLY as for procreation. The church feels that sex should take place within the bounds of marriage, but hey so do most religions so no surprise there! They feel it is healthy and wonderful for two people to express their love in that way…have fun, enjoy the creation of sex “that God has given and the ability to have pleasure from it.” Do the nasty, swing from the ceiling, get your groove on…whatever…just don’t go outside your marriage looking for it and remain true to your vows which you took in front of God (Yes, I realize you must first believe in God to do that) promising to be faithful to your spouse. They also believe that children should be a natural outcome of that and that whatever God decides to bless you with is His decision. Now here this is where I have an issue. I think that the people involved should be making the choice of what they can afford, how many they want, or even if they want any, etc….not god. Hence my firm support of birth control.

    The church has a birth control method…sort of. It is called the Rhythm method.

    http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/rhythm-method

    the church advocates avoiding sexual relations around the time a woman is fertile to prevent pregnancy. So they can have sex any time they like but if they don’t want kids then avoid the fertile times for a woman. For the church this is their form of birth control…but we all know that people don’t always get aroused on a timetable. This is why I support BC.

    My parents used the rhythm method for years. When I got older and started to learn about sex my mom and I talked about this along with other BC methods. During the course of the conversation I asked my mom if she liked the rhythm method…she said that it had worked very well for her for many years…we only had three kids. I asked her if she thought it was infallible. Her response? “Go ask your brother!” hahahaha!

  316. @Lynn, Oby,Radhaa, Prosciutto

    You may or may not get a kick out of this but the topic is Unnatural sex acts in a martial foreplay for Roman Catholics. In outlined in a legalese manner.

  317. Bigstick…

    Not a lawyer but it seems compared to this Mom was pretty open minded! 😉 I am so glad that I was taught not to be so damn uptight.

  318. @bigstick…

    Not sure who or why that guy says it is not OK to have sex without the idea that it must end in a life. Here is a link from the Diocese in which I live. They clearly advocate it if desired, so things must have changed…not sure when however.

    http://www.colsdioc.org/Offices/MarriageandFamilyLifeOffice/NaturalFamilyPlanning.aspx

  319. @Oby

    Things are changing but my whole agrument was based on how the church was initially started and brought forward on the matter. However this isn’t the only thing out there and there is lot regarding the matter stating it must involve first and foremost procreation. I just thought this one was funny since they put it into legalese. The church has had to make a some changes over the years to keep people.

  320. I realize that there are probably some that say it isn’t OK…I would guess those would be more “fundamentalist” types. Maybe it is different in different countries. I’d be the first to tell you I don’t know. But I was raised with this interpretation and I am betting I am older than you so it has been around for awhile.

    I became interested in the whole thing from this thread. I learned that up until the 20th century all christian faiths disallowed birth control. Didn’t know that before.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/contraception_1.shtml

    Here is the timeline for Catholics and more info:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/contraception_1.shtml#h6

    Not that the BBC is the authority but they contrast and compare different chirstianities and it is written in a friendly way. Not that being an atheist you would be interested but it was for me as I learned some things.

  321. “The church has had to make a some changes over the years to keep people.”

    I like to think of it as being fluid as I mentioned before. Changing the particulars as needed with modern science etc. is not a bad thing. However, being pedantic and draconian doesn’t seem to dissuade Muslims!

  322. “it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.”

    Told ya! lol

    @Oby – I couldn’t believe my eyes when I read your link. BLASPHEMERS!! Does the Pope know about this so called diocese of yours? lol

    Good thing my parents were good Catholics or this baby #9 wouldn’t be here today to keep y’all orderly 😉

  323. Oby:

    I find religion fascinating it has some historical accounting but I just believe that the doctrine has nothing to do with God just a group of highly controlling politically ambitious people.

  324. Oby, the church is not fluid, it is rigid to the extreme. The Church had to be dragged into the 21st century and it was kicking and screaming all the way!

  325. @Aafke…

    That may be the case and I am the first to argue that secularism played an important role in dampening the fire and brimstone (thankfully). But I think it is important to look at where it is NOW vs. before. No one is arguing it wasn’t pretty wicked and awful in the past. And there are still some things to go for sure, particularly in Africa as we have discussed. But they are moving forward and changing to meet the times and that is progress. Is it to keep adherents? I think that is weak argument because people still leave all the time. But it is serving the ones who stay and keeping the church in step with the times. Are they breaking their legs to get ahead in the modernity race? nah…like any other faith they are dragging their feet in some areas. BUT as practiced in today’s world in the USA it is not stifling or oppressive. I say USA because other than mass I have not actually lived with the faith in other countries for a long time so I can’t judge with an educated experience.

    When I got married, I married a Hindu. The church obviously would have preferred I married a Catholic or a Christian,(no surprise there) but they were OK with marrying a Hindu. I was not excommunicated and had I chosen to get married in USA (I was married in India) the church was willing to perform the ceremony. They were also willing to perform the premarital counseling for my husband and I. It is generally recommended prior to marriage…I actually didn’t do it because I got married in India instead. When it was time to baptize my daughter they asked if she would be raised Catholic and I said yes…even though my husband was there and participated in the ceremony, all knowing full well he wasn’t even one of the three Abrahamic faiths. So they are willing to be flexible. Did they get a follower in the deal (my daughter)? Sure they did…but they didn’t kick my ass to get it or strong arm me or guilt me.

    I know many would say I am a total fool and a dreamer, but that is why I have hope for Islam. Regardless of what is written in their books if they can ignore it and allow secularism to dampen the Islamist tendencies and the hate rhetoric then I think they too can find their way out of this rigid interpretation that many have. The one thing that they have that the Catholics didn’t have (I don’t think) is this idea that it is eternal, forever and ever and it can never ever change and it can’t be questioned. That is sort of locking it in cement and sealing forever, which IMO is a deterrent to ridding it of a lot of it’s negative dogma. If the Catholics can do it, it can be done. And if Muslims are willing to venture into that thought process and not be afraid that somehow it will destroy the faith then I think we will start seeing a lot more moderation in Islam. Might be a long time coming but I do have hope.

  326. @oby – I agree with you 100% i cannot write off Islam just yet, i see hope. I too married outside my faith. I married a muslim ( although after reading some comments i should say he’s agnostic at best) and i’m hindu and we’re not the only couple like this ( at least in India), The hindu priest has no issues marrying us and the mosque did object but we got over that hurdle with a bit of effort 🙂 and that was purely in case we wanted to meet his family in saudi etc.,
    As for kids we did the regular hindu naming ceremony etc., just because we were in india then and lived close to my family so that’s what my parents knew to arrange and they did and the priest had no issue with my husband being present or performing certain tasks.
    neither did his uncle and aunt who are muslims . so i think there is hope. I somehow found the mosques / some muslims in Mi very judgemental and didn’t approve of us, but apart from that no one questions my husband, his belief or his cherry picking 🙂
    I think there is hope yet , as the younger generation grow up they will look past religion and it’s strict interpretation and live and love in one with nature and humanity. I’m sure of it.

  327. I agree with you Radhaa.

  328. Sure individual Muslims can change and live a moderate life. The problem comes in when they read that Quran and are told that the Quran is THE word of God and as such it is protected and NOTHING in it will ever change, EVER. That kinda makes things pretty final IF they are going to believe that.

    But Christianity/Catholicism DOES have a clear separation from the brutality of the Old Testament with Jesus’ arriival (or should I say departure? lol). Also, the Bible does not pretend to be the ACTUAL words from out of God’s mouth but rather ‘inspired’ so, as such it can always be open to reinterpretation.

  329. @lynn – I don’t think is a koran or bible or any other book thing, The koran may not change but it is open to interpretation. there are a lot of muslims who don’t see any conflict in living a moderate live, picking the parts they like an dyet calling themselves muslim. Some don’t follow a lot of the hadith’s. e.g my husband has no problem living with a non-muslim, celebrating hindu holidays with me. eating the food we cook or raising my kids inthe religion they choose . he has at the same time no problem with my being a strict vegetarian and running a veggie household either, or my glass of wine . so not all muslims are rigid, probably what we hear about are the strict ones sinc ethey are more newsworthy. . and certainly there are many of those in MI ( been there lived that) 🙂 i think nowadays the garbage that comes out of the middleeast is bad, but then there are so many muslims who are not saudi or arab , i personally love the sufi’s.. a bit nutty but so lovable 🙂

  330. @Lynn…

    I agree with your comment particularly about Islam. That it is forever and ever the same…Ameen…is the one VERY big sticking point. And it worries me because that means it can never move forward. And I KNOW that Islam has been heading in a far more conservative direction in the last 30 years. It was much more “laid back” when I was a kid. Which is why I think no one was “islamophobic” or cared about Islam (and I mean cared as in the negative sense). It was not an issue. Of course there was not the intense level of muslim immigration either. Or all the killings of Muslim on Muslim. But now with the advent of the “Islamic Revival” it has gone from being laid back to a much more in your face religion.(media partly responsible for that) And I think the two factors…more muslim immigration coupled with the islamic revival has made a big issue of the whole situation. Plus I am very suspicious of the islamic revival. What was wrong with islam 30 years ago? Why were people “good enough” Muslims then and not now? That is why I think the Islamic Revival is much MORE a political movement than a religious one..although I am sure the normal Muslim would think it religious.

  331. Oby wrote:

    “What was wrong with islam 30 years ago? Why were people “good enough” Muslims then and not now? That is why I think the Islamic Revival is much MORE a political movement than a religious one..although I am sure the normal Muslim would think it religious.”

    I think they are connected. My Syrian friend told me he is amazed when he looks at pictures of his mom back in the ’80s – no hijab! He explained to me that people back then were not very religious and “quite liberal” with their dress and even some drank alcohol. THEN something happened. Maybe it was lost wars, Arabs losing face and honor and being shamed. I really can’t recall this part of our conversation (as it’s been a couple years ago now), but I do remember there was a shift to becoming more religious. The people thought they could bring God’s favor by observing Islam more strictly.

    In a way this reminds me of the reality TV show “All-American Muslim” when the infertile woman decides to wear hijab almost as if wearing cloth on her hair would make God finally reward her with a child.

    And who knows? God just might.

    But I think that may be what happened within those last 30 years. And yes it is political perhaps if their reason for doing it is to BE something in the world.

  332. That is very interesting Susanne. But God has not seemed to help them. IN fact it seems that the opposite has happened as in things got worse for women and nonmuslims. I have no issues if one wants to don hijab, pray lots and become super devout…but God is not going to intercede and lift you out of your hole without some effort on your part. Look what happened with the Catholics (since we are on that subject). Until secular law came along they had a very strict hierarchy…the masses were poor and uneducated. The elites at the top were well off. I realize that a lot of that might have had something to do with the time before the industrial revolution and inventions that helped people invent and make things easier and science able to be supported…but nowadays there is no excuse for Islam. They have the world at their disposal and the brains. If educated the ability to create and think and invent. As long as they depend on “god” to rescue them without doing anything to change things they will not make progress. You know how Christianity has that saying that “God helps those that help themselves?” Well it can be applied to Islam as well.
    And the irony of it is…is that they CAN be something in the world without tearing down nonmuslims, without becoming so devout that to live is a chore. But as long as their faith tells them that they can’t do this or that, or some stupid cleric knocks “western” inventions as evil, they will stay locked into this situation when all along they have the key to the lock to free themselves.

  333. Oby, I saw your comment while I was talking to my Syrian friend less than an hour ago so I asked him if their getting more religious had helped. I got the impression it was and is more of a process and it IS part of God helping those who help themselves. Don’t Muslims have a saying about God not changing things until people change themselves or something along those lines? So they changed themselves – women wore more clothes and they got stricter about not drinking and so forth.

    As for whether or not it worked: “They say these revolutions are part of the process,” Syrian friend replied. And I still got the impression it was more about saving face in the world because Arabs had been humiliated so much by world politics (the creation of Israel and losing more land after the wars with Israel for starters.)

  334. thanks Susanne…

    I hear ya about the more clothes and being more pious, but I was talking more along the lines of making advances in science and contributing to the world in discoveries in various areas. The Japanese are known for being meticulous with electronics for example…the arabs could make contributions to the world but sitting in the sand praying isn’t going to bring anything to the world or give them anything of which they can be proud. I am curious what they are waiting for? Are they hoping to take over the world or have everyone convert to Islam? Are they hoping that Allah will bring down his wrath on nonmuslims and beat them into submission? I mean, truly what are they waiting for and expecting to happen by being more pious? I am not saying piety is a bad thing, but piety needs to be backed up with some basic action in order to make your place in the world. Hating those who invent and create does nothing to help advance your position. IMO Arabs are their own worst enemies in many ways. They blame others for their problems. And some of it does come from outside…but most of it IMO comes from within. And the more Islam they pour on the problem the less they will achieve. As long as they interpret it in such a restrictive way they can’t move forward in the arab world. So what will they do? Pray even more and blame nonmuslims for their issues. Not to mention that due to the religion and it’s restrictive interpretation half of their population is not able to use their gifts to help their societies advance. When half of the society is considered less than men then how can they advance as fast as those societies which don’t? Arabs are capable of things as great as anyone else…they are held back by their faith and the fact that it cannot ever be changed or questioned.

    So their answer to this “lack of confidence” or loss of face is to become phenomenally proud of just being Muslim and arab. But what have they DONE to be proud of? What are they doing in their societies is the question…their contributions should be what make them proud. Not who is the most pious.

  335. And if they are in the revival due to losing face etc, then it definitely is a political movement. Political in the sense it gives them something to rally around and cheer about and feel superior about… just for being.

  336. oby, the class system was due to the Catholic church, before the catholic church there was far more equality in Europe. the church changed all that, including the emergence of a large population of ”servs” borderline slaves. There is a letter from the beginning of the middle ages from a monk warning the head of the church about the big changes in society going on at that time, the poor getting really poor, and the rich getting very very rich. But I suspect that was exactly what the church wanted. The catholic church was always about control.

    They still are. Give them political power and too much ”respect” again and within a few years we would be back in the dark ages.
    Nice that you managed to get married but you would not have managed in a country where the catholic church is all powerful. You’re just lucky to be living in a country where your religion has no choice but to behave decently. They have no choice, hey have to be open and accepting. This will stop as soon as you leave off having a secular constitution.

    You really should understand that secular societies at the moment are protecting their inhabitants from the tyranny of religion, and the moment you loose the secular basis of your country you, oby, will loose your freedoms.

  337. Where is Allah SWT on wishing someone “merry christmas”? He sez: Go Merry Christmas Yourself :)-

  338. Oby, I think many of them believe it’s a process and the reason they are still so behind is because – apparently – some people still haven’t returned to God *and*, perhaps more importantly, they have not resisted the dictator leaders among them until this year. I suppose that’s why Syrian Friend mentioned the 2011 revolutions in particular.

    For years they have sat around in bondage to these tyrants, fearful to do anything and that is displeasing to Allah, but who would be brave enough to get rid of people in some cases supported by the West? Did they have enough faith in Allah to resist? They lived in fear and knew it was shameful. That’s why this year has been incredibly face-saving for many of them.

    It’s the first year some of them have said they were proud to be Arab in the sense that they no longer feel they must live in fear and shame and they have made Westerners look at them with some admiration.

    I’ve heard the dictators blamed so much for keeping them down that I believe many of them feel once they get power in their countries, they can do those things you mentioned. They will be free to invent, explore, improve their lives. I think this is why Islamic parties have done so well in the elections. They want to give Islam a chance that they were denied when (secular or Muslim-in-name-only) dictators ruled them.

    As for what have they done to be proud of: well, people’s pride is rather innate, isn’t it? How often have you heard the phrase “that hurt my pride” in relation to someone’s feelings being hurt? I get the impression it’s more of this kind of pride rather than “we have done A, B, C and D and you’d better respect us!” In fact my Syrian friend often commends the West and even Israel for their technology and achievements and regularly mentions how “backward” most Arab countries are. (And the ones who are advanced, in his opinion, are corrupt because they are so filthy rich yet they don’t help out their poorer brothers and sisters like the Palestinians.)

    I guess for Arab Muslims their pride may be wrapped up in the fact that Muhammad came from them and in their minds Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world so that is a matter of huge pride. And when Westerners convert and take Arabic names, all the better, right?

  339. ‘And when Westerners convert and take Arabic names, all the better, right?’

    That’s funny (in a sick kind of way) because as I was reading above I couldn’t help but think of my daughter and how ambitious she was BEFORE accepting Islam. She went from planning to be ‘The Dictator of the World’ (her words) to being acceepting of being co-wife of the dictator (NO, she is not in a plural marriage, to my knowledge, but she DOES agree with it accordance with Islam. Last year she was intending to go to nursing school and now she is just going to take business classes (I think she helps her husband with his homework and his job a lot). I’m willing to bet my first born child that she decided against nursing because she wouldn’t be able to do that on-line where she doesn’t have to worry about seeing and being seen or touching and being touched. It’s just a guess but, considering that I am always right…

  340. Lynn, not to mention nursing is not always seen as an honorable job for women in some cultures. Not sure if your daughter’s husband thinks that way, but I was surprised to read (here on this blog, but more recently in a book) about how nursing wasn’t a good profession for certain women. I cannot remember if it were in the Arab context or Muslim context and I don’t want to mix the two completely. 🙂

    But I do recall my Syrian friend saying most of the nurses in hospitals in Damascus were Alawaites and most Muslims don’t consider them “true Muslims” so … ?

  341. aafke…

    I guess. I didnt say my point clearly..I said that secularism has kept the church in line. I also said that it has a way to go in other countries that are not lucky enough to have secular law yet. I am very well aware that the church kept people in poverty and afraid. All of this I mentioned in my post. It is ok that you hate religions, particularly islam and catholicism. I am not blind to the issues of either faith, norhave I made excuses for the abuses they have perpetrated…and I agree that I amvery lucky to live in a country where all faiths are kept inline and moderated by law which IMOis as it should be.

  342. aafke…forgot tosay…I found your point about the warning to the people very interesting. I love history. Thanks and I will look into that. Should be interesring.
    sorry typing on my phone…all thumbs

    I guess. I didnt say my point clearly..I said that secularism has kept the church in line. I also said that it has a way to go in other countries that are not lucky enough to have secular law yet. I am very well aware that the church kept people in poverty and afraid. All of this I mentioned in my post. It is ok that you hate religions, particularly islam and catholicism. I am not blind to the issues of either faith, norhave I made excuses for the abuses they have perpetrated…and I agree that I amvery lucky to live in a country where all faiths are kept inline and moderated by law which IMOis as it should be.

  343. @Susanne – Hmmmm…Interesting. I’d never heard that before. I thought it would be more along the lines of her perhaps having to be involved in the inspection and/or touching of a non mahrahm penis. Also, I don’t know of any all female nursing schools that are run by all females. In high school she excused herself from health class when they discussed sex because it was a co-ed class how would you pull that off in a serious medical school?.

  344. Susanne…

    Thanks so much for the further explanation. I appreciate it. I have a very good friend who is Arab…born Muslim but now more of a spiritual agnostic. I asked them about the resistance and what did they think. Actually they were not very optimistic. They felt that the people of those countries were in for a lot of pain because islamists were going to take over (be voted in) and make an oppressive situation even more so. For the short term they saw no good coming out of it…but felt once the people realized intense islam is not the answer then a time of “enlightenment” would occur and the people will start moving toward democracy. Then and only then the people would start being able to achieve and think freely. Until then it would remain unproductive and in turmoil…no longer with dictators but with islamists and in turn with themselves as they realize the answer is not Islam. Interestingly though, when I expressed my frustration with the situation about people not achieving but having the brains to do so my friend told me “thank you, you are so kind to say that.” I said “it isn’t kindness, it is common sense” So I guess even this forward thinking secular leaning Arab who was accomplished did have a sense of loss of face to think I was being kind rather than stating something true.

  345. Courageous ex-Muslim in Muslim country starts an extraordinary new website

    Recently I was forwarded an email from a member of the interfaith dialogue group that I attend here in Seattle. The email was from a remarkably courageous woman in a Muslim country.

    Raised a Muslim, she practiced Islam all her life. However, she has now left Islam, and is now — because of Islam’s death penalty for apostasy — living a precarious existence in her native land. Here is an excerpt from her first entry in her recent blog, in which her relief and resentment at her longtime intellectual and spiritual bondage are palpable:

    “To tell you the truth, I have never really been a good Muslim, because I have always been a very good human being. I guess everyone but the Muslims would know that a good human being is always a bad Muslim and vice versa, because the two can never go together.

    I always loved all human beings and never judged anyone based on their religion, unlike the teachings of Quran, which says we are not supposed to befriend non-Muslims and we are supposed to slay them wherever we find them. That is clearly mentioned in the 9th sura.

    I have stopped praying completely since 28th of October 2011, so it has just been almost two months now but I have to admit, I have never felt so peaceful and relaxed in my life. I don’t have to wake up every morning at unearthly hours to pray fajar or make time at work to pray zuhar and asar. I don’t have to miss my favorite show on TV because its time for Magreb. I can now go to bed at any time I want at night without having to make sure I pray Isha before I sleep”.

    As I mentioned above, she has now started a blog, “Liberated Now”, in which she details her journey and will keep us up-to-date on her experiences. Please bookmark it and visit it regularly!!!

    http://liberatednow.blogspot.com/

  346. Oby, what warning did I speak of?
    I don’t hate religions, I just don’t want them to make people suffer, and I would like for them to leave me alone, but that is exactly what they can’t do. I dislike religions. I understand that a percentage of humans needs to make up these superstitions about invisible friends and they need to ”believe” in them, and they can do what they like of course.
    But they have to stay out of other peoples lives, they have to stay out of politics, and they have to stay out of schools, science, etc.

    Or, as our Lord CH said: They can play with their toys at home, but they are not to make me play with their toys, I won’t play with their toys, don’t bring your toys to my home.

  347. Harry,
    I am skeptical that this blog is for real. If one grew up in a Muslim country, English is probably not their first language. The way the blog is written, it reads like a native speaker. Now, there are exceptions to that, like Aafke and Moq, who are not native speakers, but I think that is rare. Also, the worshipful way the blogger describes Pamela Gellar, Pipes, and others lead me to me suspicious.

  348. Kristie,

    Whether it is real or not, MoAllahAlim :)-

    I shared her blog with a few of my indian/pakistani muslim friends. They thought it was genuine. They think that she is either from india or pakistan, because of her excellent british-style of english. Also, because she spelled the five daily prayers in the style/spelling of the subcontinent. They mentioned that english is widely spoken in both countries, with english medium schools everywhere, where many middle class families send their kids to enhance their futures for both professional and marriageablity prospects.

    Regarding the “notables” that you mentioned, well, just like there are neo-libs, there are neo-cons. Life will be really boring if we didn’t have the full spectrum in the marketplace of ideas :)-

  349. She justs sounds lazy to me. She wasn’t a good muslim anyways…but labored with the prayers? And yippee…she doesn’t have to do them now? Sorry but the “not very good muslims” don’t bother with prayer, that’s why they are considered not very good.

    Also, she has never “judged anyone based on their religion”? Well she just did. She judged every muslim on the planet and found them bad human beings…because you can’t be muslim and a good human being.

    I agree with Kristine…sounds suspect to me.

  350. […] 2011:  Where is Allah is the most popular post with 359 […]

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