Saudi Arabia: Does Western Culture Has Too Much Influence on Saudi Women?

At a recent conference in Riyadh on women’s rights organized by the Researchers’ Center for Women Studies (RCWS), Islamic scholars and human rights activists discussed the impact of Western culture on the Saudi women.

One scholar did speak out and state that the perception of Western culture on Saudi women might or might not be true.  However it seems that the majority did agree that Western culture was in turn influencing the culture, language and dress of not only Saudi women but many Muslim women.  These remarks were made in a negative tone and some speakers stated that the West had no right in attempts to influence Saudi women.  It was felt that the West was ‘butting in’ where it had no business or right to do so.


The Saudi women and the Saudi society abides by Sharia law.  Although some changes have been taking place in Saudi such as allowing women more opportunities on where they can work, overall under Sharia law, the husband or the male guardian is expected to provide for the financial needs of the woman.  Saudi scholar Al Abdul Kareem said that “Saudi women and Muslim women should be left alone to carry out their religious obligations…”

Ali Al-Namiah, a former minister of social affairs, said, “there is no comparison between Muslim women and their counterparts in the West in terms of value.”   He agreed that while some Muslim women have been affected by Western lifestyles at the same time they have also made a positive influence on the West.

Al-Namlah said there are millions of women around the world whose moral values have been declining. This has resulted in numerous abortions due to their illegitimate relations with men.

This article provides insights to the perceptions the Islamic scholars have not only of Saudi women but also of Western lifestyle.


237 Responses

  1. “This article provides insights to the perceptions the Islamic scholars have not only of Saudi women but also of Western lifestyle.”

    Muslim scholars must be held accountable and tried for the heinous crimes they have committed against Muslim societies, especially against women. Their fatawi, tikfir, their manipulation of religion to enrich themselves and their autocratic masters and their anti freedom of choice, individual liberty and political participation sermons and teachings are solely responsible for the Muslim.World’s staggering backwardness.

    The Saudi Mufti and the Imam of Medina Grand Mosque declared in March that peaceful protest against injustice, exploitation, deprivation, segregation, discrimination, poverty, corruption and alienation is against Islam and Muslim values. The Mufti lives in 800,000 sq.ft. lush compound.

    Influential clerics like Shaikh Fowzan Al-Fowzan and others said that anyone who tries to set age limits to prevent child marriages is deviant because Islam says men can marry girls at any age-infants.

    The high Saudi government’s High Islamic Council, headed by the Mufti, declared recently (see below) that allowing women to drive will end virginity and turn Saudi society into gays, lesbians, prostitutes and misfits. Talking about repulsive degradation of women.

    For these reasons alone, all Saudi clerics must be held accountable and tried by non-religious women judges on TV, YouTube, and sports arenas.


    Women Driving Will End Virginity in Saudi Arabia

    CDHR’s Analysis: The most offensive new charade to justify barring women from driving was issued by the religious wing of the Saudi ruling men recently. It stated that, “Within 10 years of the ban being lifted… there would be ‘no more virgins’ in the Islamic kingdom.’ To augment its tradition of denigration of Saudi women, the religious establishment’s report went on to say allowing women to drive will ‘provoke a surge in prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce’. This accusatory and repugnant declaration by the Saudi government’s religious establishment is designed to debase Saudi women, maintain man’s domination over every aspect of their lives and turn people against each other as they do by turning the majority Sunni Muslims against their brothers and sisters religious minorities. All is done because God and Islam demand it according to the Saudi High Religious Council.

    Prior to and during the early days of the establishment of Islam some 15 centuries ago, women in the vast and inhospitable Arabian deserts were free to travel, work with men in farms, herding and grazing animals, harvesting and selling their goods in communal markets and most of them barely covered most of their bodies. Incomprehensibly, 15 centuries later, Saudi women are not allowed to travel, seek jobs, go to schools, obtain life-saving medication or give birth to babies in hospitals without male (male-guardian) permission. They are prohibited from mingling with men (publicly or in the work place), they cannot choose their spouses, practice law in courts or vote in cosmetic municipal elections. They are the only people on this planet that are barred from driving despite the fact that many Saudi women are doctors, scientists, brain surgeons, professors, businesswomen and pilots. However, there are limits to how much people can endure.

    The Saudi women are fighting back in all fronts, especially for their most basic right: free movement. In recent years, many Saudi women have been challenging the system’s nebulous policies and futile reasoning for denying them the right to drive. Their demands to drive draw domestic and international attention and support, consequently severe reprisal by their insecure government, including imprisonments, intimidation and threats to some of them, their families and their supporters. The regime, through its religious establishment, is resorting to the most abhorrent and insulting reasons to perpetuate its repression of women as the article below indicates.

  2. The “shop ‘till you drop” society hardly has room to talk. Saudi uses more Western goods than almost any nation on earth, because they produce virtually nothing themselves.

    The West is not forcing their lifestyles, products or services upon anyone. The choice to purchase or use anything Western is exactly that—a choice! Saudis love to choose everything Western.

    I have for years suggested that anyone, especially Muslims who object to anything Western should simply stop using or buying anything from the West.

    Use only things produced and invented by Muslims, especially Arabs, in order to stay pure.


    The only problem is. . .

    …” We still didn’t invent any new modern gadgets. And we are still living in the past. Yet we always brag about our inventions and discoveries hundreds of years ago. The Arab world had the best opportunities to advance well ahead of a lot of nations. But, we wasted our resources on failed projects. We saw billions of dollars disappear because of widespread corruption, and these billions should have been used for medical and science research. To the Arabs, every new gadget is a science fiction, because we know how to buy and use, but not how to invent. When we measure the gap between NASA and any Arab educational institute, then the gap is so huge, you would think the number is science fiction.”

    Ali Al-Namiah, a former minister of social affairs, said, “there is no comparison between Muslim women and their counterparts in the West in terms of value.”   He agreed that while some Muslim women have been affected by Western lifestyles at the same time they have also made a positive influence on the West.

    Al-Namlah said there are millions of women around the world whose moral values have been declining. This has resulted in numerous abortions due to their illegitimate relations with men.

    This article provides insights to the perceptions the Islamic scholars have not only of Saudi women but also of Western “

    There are plenty of “illegitimate” relationships and abortions in Muslim nations, most for gender reasons. The umma can hardly speak of the moral highroad given their human rights records especially against women and expats.

    The only influence that Muslims have made upon the West and other nations is to clarify and underscore exactly how backward, discriminatory, misanthropic and misogynistic their Islamic ideology is.

  3. These are the Western women the Saudi religious establishment and masters, drummers and dancers call morally bankrupt.

  4. I would say that it is men who are more influenced by Western culture. After all they are the ones who have forsaken camels for suv’s (women only are passengers). If their are Western style shopping malls in Saudi Arabia, it is men who built them. Men are the ones who can choose to dress in Western fashion or Arabic fashion as they feel. However woman wish to dress, outside the house they are wearing the black uniform of the permanent minor.

  5. Lots of truth in Jerry’s comment.

    I like Prosciutto’s suggestion about those people not using or buying western-made things….you know, so they won’t be tainted by us.

    It seems the Saudi men who made these statements are scared that their womenfolk are getting ideas … and might desire to become *gasp* something other than hidden jewels and breeders!

  6. @Prosciutto,

    “The West is not forcing their lifestyles, products or services upon anyone. The choice to purchase or use anything Western is exactly that—a choice! Saudis love to choose everything Western.”

    Agreed. The Salafi/wahabbi ideology has not produced anything to make it attractive for the rest of the world. They have created a culture that does not produce anything, because of the extreme restriction on thought and creativity. The result is that they have to import everything from goods to ideas. Of course that includes fashion and life style. The Immams are upset because they cannot compete with the superior culture that is attracting their youth. So they blame everything on the west. Do not get me wrong, I wish for every culture to retain some uniqueness, but with Wahhabbi’s controlling the country, Saudi Arabia lost its culture. What is left are the bad results of a horrific experiment in social engineering.

    @Ali AL-Yami, Good video and loved your comment…

  7. WOW! What a wonderful video. 😀

    We were clapping and singing along.

    Would you look at that, both genders with women unveiled and people of all races, ethnicities, all ages having immoral fun together.

    No doubt many Saudis believe that the “scantily” dressed, young female singers will be thrown down on the shopping mall floors and raped by Western men who regularly rape their own mothers and daughters while under the influence of alcohol. (I did not make that up, it was in Arab News.)

    Once again I ask, why, Why, WHY do Muslims, especially the superior Saudis, not regularly export anything positive from their cultures?

    Oh, one more thing. Those abaya shrouded women on the park bench remind one of a bunch of clustering bats.

  8. Prosciutto – ‘…regularly rape their own mothers and daughters while under the influence of alcohol.’

    Much like that drugged up Saudi man who just got sentenced for raping his own daughter for 7 years ? Oops, that was probably due to ‘western influence’. My bad.

  9. Agree with Jerry. It seems to me that the men in KSA are the ones closest to a the cultural norms as men living in the “west”.

    Did the men have a similar conference? Highly unlikely.

    Just a slight reminder. While it is the obligation for the husband to provide for his family, there is NOTHING in God’s law that ultimately forbids a wife from working. AND there are plenty of women that are NOT married that should be allowed to work if they so desire. No law should ban women from working. It is against human rights, secular law and God’s “laws” (which are obviously so OPEN to interpretation)

  10. I agree that there is a problem but do not agree with the Saudi Solution.

  11. The reason i have not been commenting on recent posts is because the discussion tend to ignore the real causes of the problems American Bedu raises as in this case. The root cause of the problem here is not the Saudi men or women, but the brutal system.

  12. Ali Alyami

    So, could you define the system. How would you go about changing the system? Do you think it is even possible?

  13. @bigstick,

    I do not think the Saudi System will go away anytime soon. The Monarchy has retrenched and strengthened its security to combat any impact from the Arabic spring. They also made reduce internal strive by spreading money. The minority Shiiat protests will be brutally crushed if need to.

    Further they have been working behind the scenes to support Salafi groups in the fallen Arabic countries. To insure that they have friends inside those emerging systems.For example with Saudi Money the Salafi movement which was not strong a few months ago are getting second place in the election with 20%.

    I think it will take a long time before you see a revolution in Saudi if ever.

    Sorry but the picture is not rosy for a massive change. However, I think the system will continue to reform at a similar pace to today. Prince Naif is a conservative, but many of the younger princess surrounding him understand that ultra conservatism will not help business and the country stability. He is a more capable administrator than the current king and will may actually reduce the incompetence in implementing programs.

  14. Sigh…I will never understand why these men think that women in the west are only n sluts. Millions of Muslim women around the world live by the tenets of thief faith have more freedom then Saudi women. Personally I think Saudi women see other Muslim women around the world and are waking up to the fact they too can have freedom and still be Muslims. Too bad small minded men in ksa want to keep women in the dark ages. I can only hope that the next generation ksa will change the country. I think old conservatives realize that people who see the freedoms of the west want what most humans around the world which is freedom to live thier lives as they see fit.

  15. It’s an absolute system that came to power violently. It’s survival depends on divide, conquer and turn people against each other in the name of religion or as religion calls for especially as it relates to women, religious minorities and non-Muslims.

    I am not interested in changing the system by the same brutal force it used to come to power and has used to rule until this day. Either the system will fall under its weight or people will explode in a way never seen before.

    Furthermore, the international community, especially the West will find it necessary to expedite the demise of the system because of religious incitements, extremism and their byproduct: terrorism.

    The global economy’s stability depends, at least for now, on stability and uninterrupted flow of petroleum from the Gulf region and through its waters. The Saudi and Iranian policies are threatening that fact and if a war breaks up in that area both regimes are more likely to be taken out, because they are expendable and better replacement can be found that will ensure voluntary stability.

    This is the last post on this matter.

  16. Onigirifb, billions of women in the western world are not muslim and live ”decent” lives. They life good lives, they behave responsible, and they live a worthwhile life.

    Millions of women in the West life respectable, honorable, and even distinguished lives. And that is exactly what these misogynist, misbegotten, porcine losers want to keep away from Saudi women.

  17. Gwendolyn, what problem do you agree with?

  18. I am daily insulted and offended by the misogynist misguided nonsense spewed out of Muslim men’s mouths.
    How dare these stupid men, who know nothing about the real world, how dare they to insult me, my mother, my aunts, my grandmothers! How dare they!

    My mother, aunts and grandmothers were true ladies, they all have more worth, dignity and decency in their small finger on the left hand than a thousand of these pathetic pugnacious bigots put together.
    My father, brother, uncles, grandfathers showed more respect and decency to women in one hour of one day than these mentally retarded bozo’s will show in their entire lifetime.

  19. And it’s not only that men and women have greater honor and decency in the West, or cultures (there are many different ones) are vastly superior too. That is why we are doing so much better. Why people who live in the West are so much happier, why people have a better lifestyle, why we have vastly superior science, why we make stuff, which Saudi Arabia has no choice but to buy. Because the Middle East makes nothing, invents nothing, creates nothing.

    Just wanted to make that clear.

  20. Oh, I just watched the video – twice. How fun! Thanks for sharing, Ali! So cheery!

  21. I have long said if the Saudis wish to eliminate Western influence from the kingdom ,(specifically the females), the powers that be should send us all home and do their own work. Shut down satelite tv and Internet. And most important, recall all the students, male and female, from every country that has Western values and culture and educate the at home.
    I associate with women from many countries. mong them are Australia, Great Britian, South Africa, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia. For the most part, we do not feel it is our job to change anything here. We feel if the Saudis, male and female, want change, then it is up to them to change it.

  22. Considering the amount of control the men /govt / imams etc., have on the women in saudi , It is totally up to them to controlt he amount of western influence on their women. having said that It is totally upto the saudi women to decide how much she wants to be controlled.

    From what i’ve seen saudi women are not the quiet,docile take a beating types.. Some of them can be very vocal.

    I don’t think western culture is influencing saudi women, i think the western ways of life, freedom is more appealing to them. Most of us inthe world want to be left alone to pursue what makes us happy not what makes someone else happy – human nature.

  23. And let’s not forget the Saudis should close all the hospitals, send home all foreign workers, all western trained doctors, don’t buy western medicines, back to the witch doctors.
    And stop using western techniques for drilling oil. Maybe they should leave the western province where all the oil is to the shiat, they don’t count as Muslims anyway, and they can go on taking money and western influence from the west.

    And of course no western cars, no maids, no drivers.
    I vote for eliminating everything western or western inspired stuff from the country.
    And that includes polyester, black polyester, and sewing machines. So no ore abayas. And abayas should go altogether, they are an outside influence.
    And no viagra for the men.

  24. How many ‘western’ maids do you think there are in Saudi Arabia?

  25. The basic idea so prevalent in Saudi Arabia that Western women are immoral in how they live and dress is something that any rational Westerner cannot accept.

  26. Lynn, doesn’t matter, these maids bring outside influences, and they all do witchcraft. Let them hire a Saudi maid if they think they need a maid. Although I think the idea of a ”maid” is western too. Maybe they prefer to go back to oldfashioned slavery.

  27. It is a lovely day, with snow outside, a fire inside and Christmas just around the corner. I would love to invite you all to a party, one where the women and men are beautifully dressed, the food is fabulous, the music hot and everyone drinks in a civilized manner. 😀

    ali alyami, said: The root cause of the problem here is not the Saudi men or women, but the brutal system. “

    The “system” is the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam that Saudis believe every Muslim and nonMuslim must follow.

    I agree that nothing will change in Saudi. The issue is that Saudis do not have the kind of guts that the Syrians have to set themselves free. In order for slaves to free themselves they must suffer for a long time. The Saudis are too comfortable.

    @ onigirifb,
    Saudi “men think that women in the west are only n sluts.”” Because, they are obsessed with sex since they do little work and have no accomplishments to fill their inflated egos. Most of all, they do, regularly buy Western sluts. It is doubtful that Western female rocket scientists or other professionals would give these lechers the time of day.

    @ Aafke

    It is not only Muslim men who insult Western or other nonMuslim women. It is the women as well. They are often clueless and brainwashed as to how dignified life is for free women because so many are kept as breeding stock, illiterate and imprisoned. This where the media and the internet come in. These will educate and bring forth the truth to these people. Of course, it might be good if they watched some cultural programs instead of the schlock they prefer like Bay Watch or porn. 😉

    I say again, if every Muslim lived as Muhammad did and behaved as commanded in the Qur’an the world would be an even more miserable and violent place.

    I do not agree with ali alyami that the West needs to or even can eradicate the “system” because of the threat of terrorism. That threat is much greater to the umma because Muslims fight among themselves. Muslims need to clean their own houses and not depend on others to do the dirty work. The West may just have learned its lesson in Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, we are broke and need to spend money on our own people. Those who “love death” can go for it, while the rest of the world moves on.

  28. As to the dependence on ME oil. That is changing radically. The Saudis are not nearly as important as they used to be and they know it.

    OPEC Losing Its Muscle,1518,597473,00.html

    There are all sorts of other methods of obtaining petroleum energy online now or on the horizon including natural gas and fracking as well as the greener methods. I have a recent article regarding that and the Saudis are concerned, to put it mildly.

    The there is this little problem in Saudi:

    Arab News Reports:

    Growing Saudi consumption for its own crude cause for concern

    The surge in the Saudi domestic crude consumption is generating ripples all around. With the region in the midst of hot and humid summer, this could be straining — ultimately — the delicate, global demand/supply balance…”

    The Saudis are investing in nuclear power. The problem is they have no expertise and once again must use foreigners and expats. This time the Japanese.

    The world exports to Saudi and MENA. The Saudis consume at an ever higher rate:

    A February 8 article states:

    US exports to Kingdom expected to top $26bn by 2013

    US exports of goods and services to the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region reached an all-time high of nearly $68 billion in 2010. According to the new research conducted by the National US-Arab Chamber of Commerce (NUSACC), the next three years hold even more promise. The total market demand in the Arab world is expected to exceed $1 trillion by 2013.”

    With the rest of the world becoming consumers, those exports could soon be switched to China, S. America, India and the like if the Arabs do not watch their behavior.

    Again: Those who hate the West need not purchase or use anything Western! The expats from all nations should all go home. That would bring Saudi to a grinding halt within days or weeks. Everyone knows that Saudisation is not working because Saudi males are not skilled and they do not like to work. Perhaps their women can do better?

  29. The oil issue is definitely interesting. Who knows if the Saudi’s play their cards right they won’t have to worry about western influence any more as the US and Canada are already sitting on a load of oil and other resources. Then they can have exactly what they want.

  30. “And that includes polyester, black polyester, and sewing machines. So no ore abayas”

    Lol that made my day!

    Saudi men feel intimidated by successful and smart women. That’s why you’ll see the more the female climbs the ladder of independance and success, the lesser are her chances of getting married. The first idea that crosses a man’s head about such women is that they are perfectly “brainwashed” and completely “lost”, by whom? by dear West! 😀

    When I worked for a univ here, the head of the dept was an American lady who was inspiringly devoted to her work. The funny part was hearing her nick name “Kurtz”! 😉

    I personally, found it difficult to deal with too much inferiority complex from the Saudi side and too much superiority complex from the American prof. So I behaved indifferently towards both sides for the sake of working in peace. Of course to many that meant I was a “traitor” because it’s a major task for them to persuade the young voices to join the old ones thus create a bigger ‘gang’ against that woman lol. I call that episode in my life “the menace of xenophobia”. 😀

    Bad bad days!

  31. @ Saudi Woman

    Considering what a raw deal it is to be married to a Saudi male, I would bet that the more educated and professional Saudi women become, the fewer will choose to marry. The world is full of men who would love to partner with an intelligent professional woman and do not consider women over twenty-five too old to marry.

  32. @ Saudi Woman,

    The underpinning of the Saudi system from its inception in the 18th century is to make sure the people feel inadequate and lack self-worth. Marginalization of women and Mutaween (domesticators) beating and herding people to pray and witness beheadings in chop chop squares are examples of rendering people fearful and worthless.

    When outsiders, especially Westerners, come to Saudi Arabia and see how the indigenous people are treated by their government, they automatically assume the superior status like many of the commentators in this discussion.

    I remember my experiences with Aramco. Westerners are hosed in lush fenced residential compounds (Senior Staff Camps), non-Westerners company employees are housed in comfortable compounds (intermediate Camps) and the rest of us local people, indentured, are housed with stray animals, snakes, insects and scorpion infested camps, general camps.

    After centuries of this denigrating process by the Saudi ruling tribe, people accepted their inferiority status as a destiny. That’s changing and once people lose their fear, they never regain it and that’s when things will change, violently most of the time.

    This link is worth watching and reading:

  33. @ali alyami -‘and the rest of us local people, indentured, are housed with stray animals, snakes, insects and scorpion infested camps, general camps.’

    You’re joking, right?

  34. @ ali alyami, Actually, the superior status is assumed by Saudis, who believe themselves to be superior to all other human beings including other Muslims, especially the Shia and other Islamic sects. Certainly they always tell everyone that and treat others accordingly.

    Unfortunately there is no proof of the superiority of the Saudis or of Islam given the state of the ummah. There is ample proof that the Western way of life and ideology is superior or so many in the world would not risk their lives to get it:

    “I am here to say we need democracy. We need
    freedom. We need to speak freely. We need no
    one to stop us from expressing our opinions.”

    Khaled al-Johani speaking to reporters at a protest where no one but he turned up on 11 March 2011 and was arrested shortly after.

    Since March 2011 the Saudi Arabian authorities have launched a new wave of repression in the name of security. They have cracked down on demonstrators protesting over human rights violations in the context of calls for reform at home and the uprisings and mass protests in the region. At the same time, they are in the process of creating a new anti-terror law which threatens to exacerbate an already dire situation for freedom of expression, in which any real or perceived dissent is almost instantly suppressed. It would also legalize a number of abusive practices including arbitrary detention, thus consolidating draconian and abusive counter-terrorism measures imposed since 2001 against the backdrop of an extremely weak institutional framework for the protection of human rights.

    State power in Saudi Arabia rests almost entirely with the King and the ruling Al Saud family. The Constitution1 gives the King absolute power over government institutions and the affairs of the state,2 and severely curtails political dissent and freedom of expression.3 The country’s 27 million4 residents have no political institutions independent of government, and political parties and trade unions are not tolerated. The media is severely constrained and those who express dissent face arrest and imprisonment, whether political critics, bloggers or academics. King Abdullah announced on 25 September 2011 that women will have the right to vote and run in municipal elections, the kingdom’s only public poll, from 2015 and be appointed to the Shura Council, a body that advises the monarchy. However, women remain subject to severe discrimination in both law and practice. Women are unable to travel, engage in paid work or higher education, or marry without the permission of a male guardian…

  35. then.. how did the lovely western American Bedu survived in Saudi & how did she even married a Saudi man who loved her so much? & how did that lovely Omanic Not A Princess blogger western lady posted that the blonde blue eyed beauty is the desired wife?

    the type of behavior they do not want in Saudi is like in American Pie. when someone commented Tuanku Zara Salim is a MILF on her wedding YouTube video – that is the behavior I do not accept.

    anyway, i’m sorry if i hurt.

  36. Also these behavior: “I want to see her shapley cluster; I’ve got a big queen mary for her. ” commented on Amy Mainzer’s YouTube video. The western Amy is lovely, but that behavior… coming onto her… that kind of culture is unacceptable. Turning a bright woman into an object of lust – that culture is what i am against.

  37. nisa, I have no idea what you are talking about, your sentences make no sense, it really sounds like a computer just linked some sentences together.

  38. @ nisa

    Have you ever heard of free will and choice ?

    Every human being in the world, including Arabs, has free will and is able to make choices.

    Whether Muslims choose “American Pie” or choose draconian, discriminatory Islam is up to them. The fact is that most Muslims choose Western products and services. They also import lots of trash and porn from not only the West but other societies. If Muslims are so pure, why do they know all about and gravitate toward the filth instead of the high culture of other societies? Why do you know about such things? Normal people do not go for filth. There are plenty of Arabs who take sex flights to Thailand. Instead, they should be taking cultural flights to Europe and America to experience art, music and literature.

    What Westerners and other free peoples do not accept is the relegating of women and nonMuslims to second class person status while Muslim males claim that they are “the best of peoples.”

    Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. Apparently, American Bedu and the one in Oman got very lucky with their choice of Arab men. However, there are more horror stories than exceptions. When a whole society keeps half of the human population from its God-given human potential and curtails their human rights there is something very wrong with that society. It is Muslims who turn their females into objects of lust from pre-puberty by forcing them to wear shrouds, which requires that they be protected from the lecherous Muslim males who cannot seem to control themselves as the majority of other men in the world can. Why is it that only in Islam women must be “protected” and locked away so that their men do not misbehave? In the whole world, especially in the West women can walk about the streets freely without suffering harassment and disrespect from men.

    The evidence is there for all to see. Most Arab States and in fact most Islamic States are failed States, while those societies enjoying equality and democracy are the most successful and productive on earth—those are the societies from which Arabs and other Muslims receive aid, the societies from which Muslims import their daily bread as well as everything else they need and use to sustain life.

    Perhaps it is time that Muslims examined some of those truths?

  39. @ nisa:

    I have no idea who you are talking about. However, exploring yourself and your humanity is the greatest gift giving to us. How one does this is through trial and error. Exploration helps shape our understanding, failures shape the depth of us and success the height of what we can be. At the end of the day these things expand our understanding of humanity and broaden us to the fullest realm of what we were truly intended. Ponder upon this for a while.

  40. perhaps i’m too smart? honestly i don’t know how to laymen it more. sorry.

  41. @nisa

    You statement is lacking. If you have a point then make it.

  42. @Prosciutto: “turning women into object of lust” is relegating of women and non Muslims to second class person status just the same. & does anyone see how some women feel self conscious now, just bcoz their body isn’t like Barbie Doll. it’s the culture that values a woman that way.

    again, i don’t know how to make it even more simple.

  43. calling me names is relegating me to second class here.
    pls uphold your own values. 🙂

  44. @bigstick.: i did hv a point. understand it. i feel you guys just don’t want to accept it & that’s why you “do do not understand”. at least that is my good assumption of you. sorry anyway.

  45. @Nisa

    Let me tell you that islam’s way of dealing with women has told them they are NOTHING BUT an object of lust. That that object of lust is so dirty it needs to hide itself. If you to go here. I can play this game.

  46. that is not true. & why would you tell me. ha ha. this is getting funnier. TQ for the humour! 😀

  47. i’m not a second class person to be told anything. especially about something i live since i was born. i think, i should tell you, don’t you think? 😀 uh sorrym i hope i don’t even hv to explain the joke. meh.

  48. @ Nisa

    Spare me the whole, a woman is like gem, flower, etc. Believing someone’s lie about yourself is one thing but lying to yourself is just pathetic.

    Re-evaluate your life and your worth. Don’t sullen other women based upon a lie of subjugation.

  49. @bigstick

    Spare me the whole, a woman is second class, oppressed etc. Believing someone’s lie about myself is one thing but lying to me is pathetic.

    Re-evaluate your life and your worth. Don’t sullen other women based upon a lie of subjugation.

  50. @Nisa

    I don’t have to lie to you. You are doing that to yourself already. No one said you had to change your life. You can live it however you chose, but don’t sullen other women by your perceptions when your perceptions can be viewed to be equally if not greater in oppression, second class citizenry, and sexual degradation.

  51. Prosciutto, art, music and literature are haram.
    Sex is not. Apparently. At least not for men. As long as they don’t do it with the Arabian ”jewels” , who are so much more valuable than other women…

  52. @bigstick

    I don’t have to lie to you. You are doing that to yourself already. No one said you had to change your life. You can live it however you chose, but don’t sullen other women by your perceptions when your perceptions can be viewed to be equally if not greater in oppression, second class citizenry, and sexual degradation.

    btw, i’m sleepy. as Kate Sanders would say: Tick tock BORING.

  53. I am amazed you all seem to understand what nisa is going on about. I cannot find one sentence which is understandable.

    Nisa, I do not mean this as a personal attack, if English is a foreign language for you then it is understandable.
    However, you cannot jump into an English language forum while not being able to express yourself in English and expect people to understand you. Maybe after a few more years in school you can join in, but for now I suggest you keep on studying.

  54. @Aafke-Art: i speak english well. i suggest you keep studying. & honestly, i decided i don’t wanna join in. it’s kinda boring..

  55. @ Nisa

    You responses that you have provided has told me you are a child, playing a child’s game. This is a different kind of game; which your are ill equipped to play at this time. Go back to school, learn so more, and maybe you will grow up to see the damage caused by your antics and rhethoric that you are spouting.

  56. Now the best way of studying a language apart from lessons at school is to read a lot of, in this case, English literature. And watch movies and plays.
    But of course that would mean letting yourself be infiltrated with ”western” ideas…
    However, it is the best way. If you are diligent you might get good enough in English to join us in a year or so.

    Audio books are also very good to get acquainted with a language, two of my favorites are:
    The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins and read by him, and his wife Lalla Ward.
    God is not Great (why religion poisons everything) by Christopher Hitchins, read by Christopher himself, who has a most beautiful voice and diction and speaks in an admirable Oxford accent. Definitely very educative.

  57. no i’m not a child. i’m just not a boring person.
    life is more fun that way. try it. may Allah SWT bless me for telling you that ha ha
    & everything has a time. this is where out meeting ends. if i hurt, pls forgive.

  58. No no, rest assured, you haven’t hurt anyone here. We are fine!
    And we feel for you.
    And I wish we could communicate as you claim you are not boring.
    I will be looking forward to your future communications.
    Once you’ve learned English.

  59. @ Nisa

    Go now and take your nap. Oh don’t worry, adults rarely take to heart the insults of children. They know it is a process that children go through as they mature.

  60. Exactly, You don’t ever need to worry about us cuty pumpkin.
    Nity night sweety babydoll!

  61. You know what’s funny? I actually think that Saudi culture has too much influence on US!! I can say that because my daughter seems to think she lives in Saudi Arabia the way she goes around in an abaya.covered face and foreign accent. grrrrrr!! Tit for tat I suppose. So quicherbitchin’ 😉 May all Saudi teenage boys sag their pants half way down their ass and may all Saudi girls wear yoga pants and belly shirts to show their pierced belly buttons and tramp stamps! 😛

  62. @ Linda
    I agree with linda’s commemnts of 13 December.
    Moreover I can tell you that i am living in the west for 40 years. My wife and my daughters are also living in the west but they are not westernise at all.
    It all depends on the pure education which keeps you pure and clean.
    If Saudi’s compromise with SHAITAN( Devil) devlish things have to happen.

  63. I don’t think Nisa should be discouraged from speaking her views. That IS what part of this blog is all about. If English is not her first language, a blog is a good place to practice.

  64. I agree Carol. Hey! Where’s our buddy that was getting his English lessons by arguing on here? Why can’t I think of his name?! Not Medina, was it?

  65. Nisa…

    I am sorry to say but your English is not very good and your understanding is very weak. The video you posted is about SCIENCE, more specifically our own galaxy compared to another.(to be brief) She is using the boat as a visual aid to help the viewer understand the concept. You made it sound as if it about sex…which has nothing to do with this video. (unless she tears her clothes off or something as I didn’t watch all the way to the end. LOL!)

  66. Carol…I agree Nisa should not be bullied off the blog and has a right to speak as well as anyone. But from a basic POV I am not sure she can completely understand what we are saying/discussing. Her post of the video made it clear that she seems to think that it has something to do with sex or impropriety and that the model ship was a phallic symbol…or at least that is the impression I got from her post. That is a very basic misunderstanding and reasonable level concepts may not be able to be grasped. Now maybe I am misnderstanding her…and that is not what she meant, but that is the impression I got. Yes, Nisa has a right to post…but to argue is a bit of an unfair fight, I think.

  67. @American Bedu:

    Who is discouraging her. I am making her think and by her responses she is pampering herself in something indulgent scowling at being called a child in her viewpoint. Next time she will come back to prove she is not a child. Maybe then she will have a different way of putting her ideas out there in a manner that doesn’t degrade her gender.

    She is also the one who lead me to my responses.

    ” btw, i’m sleepy. as Kate Sanders would say: Tick tock BORING”

    Indicates she is sleepy and needs a nap. Also lead me to believe she is pamper and self-absorbed. A person whose concern is for self rather than others. She idolizes an american woman who is playing a teenager. Which is interesting given her dislike of them. She goes on to prove her childess mannerisms with “Tick tock BORING.” Ergo a child.

    Thus a naturally drawn conclusion ending in a natural way given the gravity of her position and it’s sometimes deadly consequences which falls mute on her.

  68. I thought we were encouraging her? After all, she was trying to get some thoughts across. It’s just that nobody could understand them.

    So Sami, your wife has lived for 30 years in ”the west” and is still ”pure”? What has ”pure” to do with it? You say this as if it’s a contradiction.
    Which it isn’t, it’s probably due to living in the west, where people can interact ina normal way, that she and your children are still ”pure”. Thanks to living in the west. Good choice of you two to stay in the West!
    We are not superior for nothing!

    I am pleased to announce that I myself am as pure as the driven snow and I am western all through.

  69. Sami:

    So you have lived in the west for 40 years. Your wife and children have never been westernized. This was due to pure education. Which I would like to hear what that is exactly. Is it homeschooling? Then my next question is why for 40 years did you live in a country that you absolutely hate and subject your family to the devil at every turn?

  70. I think that perhaps Nisa was talking about the comments that were made on that video. I didn’t read them all but I didn’t see any immature ones but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. I think she could have worded things a bit better.

    @bigstick – I took Sami’s comment to mean that his family, even though they live in this horrible decadent place have managed to maintain the morals that they were taught so Saudis shouldn’t have to worry about it in their own country IF they were taught the proper morals. Proper moral upbringing will follow you wherever you may go (religious or not). Sami, correct me if I am wrong. You can’t really blame him for the insult, it’s how they are taught. I’m willing to bet that he doesn’t even realise it WAS an insult anyway.

  71. Actually, Muslims are not supposed to live among us evil, bad, terrible non-Muslims. May I quote:

    It is reported in the ahadith that one should not live with disbelievers unnecessarily.
    Abu Dawood narrates from Samrah bin Jundub that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihi Wassallam)said: “He who mingles with a disbeliever and dwells with him is like him.” Abu Dawood and Tirmidhi also report that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihi Wassallam)said: “I am free (i.e. I disavow myself) from every Muslim who lives with disbelievers.”Abu Dawood relates from Makhool in his ‘Maraseel’ that the Prophet ? said: “Do not leave your children amongst enemies (i.e. Kuffar). (Tahzeeb As-Sunan, Ibnul-Qayyim, 437 : iii)

    It seems that Muslims only follow their dear prophet when it is convenient for them. Note that the kuffir, that is us – infidels, are termed ‘enemies”, this according to Islam’s great shining example of morality himself.

    You would think that a Muslim would want to live among Muslims (the best of peoples) and enjoy the benefits of the human rights and respect that Islam provides in Muslims societies, and not in those filthy, cruel, mean, horrible non-Muslim societies. Even so, I doubt that Sami will be packing and heading to the airport next week.

    Personally, Muslim immigration to the West has been a disaster – to the West. Muslims like Sami come to live among us and bring Mohammad in their hearts, and pretend that they want peace when their god, prophet and sacred texts say otherwise. This will end in sorrow, pain, suffering, blood and death.

  72. nisa,:
    @Prosciutto: “turning women into object of lust” is relegating of women and non Muslims to second class person status just the same. & does anyone see how some women feel self conscious now, just bcoz their body isn’t like Barbie Doll. it’s the culture that values a woman that way.
    again, i don’t know how to make it even more simple.

    Your efforts are much too simple. You are clearly a very young person used to texting, since you cannot write a proper English sentence.

    Anyone with half a brain knows that Barbie is a doll, and not a real human being. Such proportions are not possible in a living human.

    OTOH, your women should feel self conscious since most of them are fat and out of shape, especially after popping out half a dozen little Muslims, because the culture/religion will not allow you to exercise, see the sunshine and take care of your health. In the West women are fat due to their being lazy.

    Every Muslim male I have ever known wants a Nordic blonde, light eyed woman. That is their fantasy as you have stated.

    I really fail to see your point. How do you know about all the “bad” things in the West? Why don’t you know about the good things—which far outnumber the bad? Who the heck is Kate Sanders? Boring people are bored. Why do you know all about Western movies and Western trash? Do you do nothing productive but watch trashy Western shows and play on the net?

    It is up to Muslims to “understand” and not up to nonMuslims. Our societies work fine. YOU live off Western societies. Without them, Muslims, especially Arabs could not feed themselves.

    Time for Muslims to win hearts and minds!

    @ Sami,

    You are the typical, insulting, supremacist Muslim male with which I have had lots of experience. I would be willing to bet that you have have not remained “pure.” If you are like other Muslims males, especially Arabs whom I have known you will chase any skirt from 9 to ninety. Your type hangs around outside of their shops and on street corners in my city, leering at every woman who passes by.

    Why are you still living in the land of the Shaitan? Why have you stayed for over 40 years and not integrated? Why are you mooching off the West and not contributing? Perhaps you should go back to where you came from before you and your “pure” wife are polluted by Western freedom and democracy.

  73. Sami…

    sad to say that your comment is a fairly good example of what I mean when I say that muslims (many, not all) don’t want to assimilate. I find this very perplexing. You want all the goodies and freedoms and better life that go with the West but you are not “westernized”. Unless of course you mean that to be westernized is to be a slut or some horrible person. It is beyond my comprehension how I can live in a country, supposedly happy, and not absorb some of the culture. How can someone live in a culture for 40 years and not have some of that culture rub off in some way? Or take away the good of the culture? And if they don’t want to be westernized how in the heck can you live a daily life day in and day out fighting against (emotionally and intellectually speaking) the culture in which they live?

    If I lived in Japan I am quite sure that I would, after 40 long years, absorb some of the culture and habits. I cannot fathom spending my life with an internal struggle like that and moreover, moving here willingly??!

  74. @Nisa,

    This man had problems with English also, but now he speaks English perfectly. That is only one year after listening to Hitchens’ audio books.

    I highly recommend that you get some of those books in your iPod.

  75. @Prosciutto – ‘In the West women are fat due to their being lazy.’

    HEY!!! Mama told me it was my metabolism 😦

  76. It’s just puppy fat…

  77. @ Lynn:

    In your young spirit spunky self, it could just be some left over baby fat.

  78. Yep, baby fat, that’s what it is!

  79. Moq: Snort!!!!!

  80. i speak english well, i just don’t spend time on a blog writing a literature novel. anyway if it helps you, i will try to spell things clearly. and if you will, please appreciate my spending time here, thank you.

    lets start with the video of Tuanku Zara Salim’s wedding. she is a muslim woman, a trained chemical engineer & a royal princess who lives in the east. if you read on the comments in that video, you will find someone commenting she is a MILF. and you will see people asking, “what is a MILF?” so if you google it, you will find what MILF is & maybe you will also find that it is used in the movie American Pie. if they’re curious enough how such a movie was a box office hit, they would ask “is such behavior customary in America?” and that is how non western people may learn about America, even if some Americans may not like such manner of introduction to their society.

    i have also linked to the video of Amy Mainzer & the subsequent comments she received as additional reference. both videos are my case presentation of how even an intellectual, bright, professional women are regarded when people only see their physical appeal. perhaps people regard such behavior as “praising a beauty”, but it is an open public harassment watched even by little children. in another video, you can see it is stated that even Dr Amy Mainzer dislikes such behavior towards her & asked for the removal of such comments.

    this is where i will explain the Barbie Doll issue. i was simply trying to present a reality where the supposed perception of beauty – that women see in the various media especially the western e.g.: movies, pop videos, reality TVs etc. – is influencing the body image of women. valuing a woman only by her body can also hurt women since in real life many disfigurements can occur (by birth, accident, assault, disease, aging etc) and not everyone can attain the Barbie look.

    BTW, i do also see the good in the west. i said Amy Mainzer is lovely. i actually like her. if you read my website, you will see i’m open to civilizations from the east to the west. i know there are women in the west like Marie Curie just as there is a Mariah Carey.

    actually a funny thing is, i feel more western when i actually know Kate Sanders. it sure activates my hilarity unit. FYI, Kate Sanders is the blonde cheerleader in Lizzie McGuire who i remember saying “tick tock”. [video] this might be the trickier part to understand, but if you can see Kate is popular and Lizzie is not. why is that?

    OK. to anyone who wants to denigrate my intellectual capacity, it is all up to you. for me, i tried. and pls kindly forgive me if i ever hurt you. the denigration against me after this will not be answered bcoz i have moved on. thank you.

  81. @nisa

    I wonder why you judge women on their appearance so much. A woman is a woman. If she is secure, intelligent, confident, grounded, and aware of her sexuality then more power to her. Haven’t you figured out that it is the woman’s sexuality that is used against her. Most women here in the west knows fantasy from reality. Apparently you do not. They are confident in themselves and capable of knowing their sexuality on their own terms. Haven’t you figured out yet that religions whole purpose is to use a woman sexuality to subjugate her to the control of men yet? It takes your natural femininity and makes it dirty thereby making you dirty as well. It is a means of control by making you think that all that you are is a sin. It is twisted, demented and sick. The really sad thing is that no matter how hard you try to unsullen yourself you cannot. The reason for this is how your view your gender. Think about that for a while.

  82. Bigstick, Why nisa is judging women on their appearance? Maybe he is a man, posing as a woman. That’s why he thinks like a man, not like a woman, read his comments (those that are intelligible).
    We get men here now and then, posing as women and pretending they have this wonderful life as slaves in KSA.
    I have been thinking nisa could be one of them, because I see only male thinking here, no understanding for natural femininity and the worth and aspirations of women. Nisa also relates everything to sex. And is obsessed with the comments of men about women, tell tale signs if you ask me.

    nisa, the other hand I am glad to see you now make an effort to write English. You see Giggle Wiggles? You can do it very well if you just try. Well done sweetie pie, much, much better!

  83. @ Lynn…

    Thank you. I appreciate you pointing that out. Lately I am rushing so much I am reading too quickly.

  84. Aafke-Art:

    It doesn’t matter if she is a male or female. That isn’t the point. The point is the message. I tend to think Nisa is a young female just based on her argument. The problem is, that she is caught between two societies trying to figure out who she is (or at least that is what she is conveying) and how the world looks at her. She has a point in bringing up what is her perception. On the hand the west is showing her all these movies, commercials, etc. implying an unrealistic view of how women are perceived. On the other hand, women in Muslim countries are telling women what they are and how to deal with their sexuality and there femininity. Neither one are healthy. The thing is I am trying to get her out of judging other women based upon these precepts. This is a trapping of the media and societal norms that women cannot win as it has been set in place to judge women. Ergo catch 22.

    Women have become great foot soldiers without realizing it for just this caught 22 situation. They do so by judging everything about other women. How they dress, what they say, what others say about them, etc. Then they go after another female or what they believe to be outside the norm and pounce. Ergo a woman can be women’s worst enemy. Interesting that no one mentions that there are tons of men who are equally degraded, put down, made fun of, etc. Few talk about that and how it effects men. It does in fact effect men and sometimes not in positive ways. However, there is a double standard that she has falling into the she is actually helping without realizing it.

    I find it interesting that so little is actually talked about in the degradation of men by religion and society in how they demand men to be as well. Men are taught earlier on to hide their emotions, to be rough, to be the provider, to be the head of the ship. How fair is it to men that they feel that so much falls on their shoulders; when for the most part all they probably want is some help. Why do we concentrate on just women and fail to look at what society/religion is doing to men, what it is crafting them to become, and asking the question is this healthy. Why is it that even though fewer men commit suicide they are four (4) times able to complete the act over women.

    Normally not always, when addressing someone on the blog I am trying to convey a message to them as well as someone who is reading the blog. You see when I engage in a conversation it is meant to expand my understanding. This exercise is meant to
    re-evaluate our beliefs, understanding, conformity and the bedrock of ourselves. This is what I am trying to have Nisa look at and now I will try to convey a few suggests to you.

    You are a very independent person who has a great deal of self. That is not a bad thing. It is just sometimes you can go a little too far in the insult department. Yes, even I go to this point as well when trying to convey a message. Sometimes it does have the intended effect. I understand however, that from your perspective that it is annoying and frustrating when you see women do this to other women. You see it as sending women backwards for all the fighting that it took to get women to this point. I would like to point out that there are women who have not come as far as you and they are looking for some guidance even in the most darkest and sometimes unfriendly place as a blog.

    Just some points to ponder. AB may get upset at the length but I will post it anyway and suffer the wrath. LOL :0)

  85. On the other hand, women in Muslim countries are telling women

    should have read;

    On the other hand, Muslim countries are telling women

  86. bigstick…save the lecture. Some people on this blog only have two modes of commenting. Suck up…or beat down. 😉

  87. @Oby – Sorry, thanks for what? Pointing out my baby fat is NOT due to laziness or something from farther back? lol

    @Aafke – ‘We get men here now and then, posing as women and pretending they have this wonderful life as slaves in KSA’

    And you have some ‘proof’ of that?

    @Bigstick – I applaud you! {{standing ovation}} – Well I have to refill my teacup anyway but still…I bet you are a grown-up, you are, aren’t you? 😉

  88. Thank you OBY.

  89. @Jay – if Muslims are not to live around non-Muslims, then how come it is okay for a Muslim to marry non-Muslims from Abrahamic religions? These women do not have to convert to Islam.

    Re the Barbie reference – I’ll never forget one time when I was in Riyadh and tired of seeing how some women were treated and I actually made this comment to a bunch of Saudi men: “Women are not Barbie’s you can take on and off the shelf at will.”

  90. Bigstick you make good points.

    You know what nisa? Besides listening to Christopher Hitchins you should download and watch the following movies, which are very educative about women’s roles in society:

    Erin Brockowitch
    Dangerous beauty
    Jackie Brown
    Barb Wire

    And the French movie Chaos,

  91. @Carol – ‘if Muslims are not to live around non-Muslims, then how come it is okay for a Muslim to marry non-Muslims from Abrahamic religions? These women do not have to convert to Islam.’

    Carol why WOULDN’T it be ok for them to marry Christians or Jews? It’s a perfect plan to stop the breeding of new ones and to get Muslims out of them. Remember those Christians or Jews are ONLY going to have MUSLIM babies. That is why a Muslim woman cannot marry a Christian or a Jew because their kids would not be Muslim. So see, they are allowed to live with them as long as they continue the goal of over taking them 😉

  92. Coolred38;

    Yes, I know the types. However, I think that is not what Aafke-Art is going for and I believe she is trying to get a message to people. At least for the most part. I also wanted to get across other points that she may not be considering. The post isn’t just for Aafke, it is also for Nisa and others who read it.

    Thanks for the heads up though. Too bad you didn’t tell me that earlier before I got into the long discussion with Lynn. It okay though, I am talented in both suck up and smack down.

  93. @Lynn

    Raspberry, Raspberry, Raspberry.

    There is my child side coming out.


  94. Just reading this now.
    @ Nisa … if you see something sexual in Dr Amy Mainzer’s video then you must indeed have an adolescent mind that is seeing sex in every single thing around them. Goodness, get a grip!

  95. Every since I saw the picture of Mekkah -Gotham City, all I can do is look at this picture on this post and shake my head on just how much they look like big black bats.

  96. bigstick…no problem…but you have to spend more time here to get the real feel for the place. 😉

    btw…I have 5 children that were created and born while I was muslim…I would appreciate if people would stop referring to my pregnancies and motherhood as “breeding” and “breeders” etc. My children were not born of an animal husbandry service…just like Im sure yours weren’t. Disgusting use of word and par for the course that it’s use is allowed on this blog.

  97. @Coolred38:

    I am feeling out the parameters of the enviroment. I also have a cause and I do like try to get my message across. I like considering myself a thorn in the ass. When you pull me out and look you find I have a point.

    Do not take it personnally when I make the breeder statement as I do not believe this. However, I do believe religion does use women in this manner as self evident with the scripts. So when I make my points on religion I will address in stark cold terms that is down to the core. If you haven’t figured me out by now I will tell you straight up I do not like religion whatsoever. I will go head to head on this subject. I am a whole lot more relax with people like Nisa as she has been shaped by this and it does take time to tear down foundations and start over.

    So please take my apologies up front but I am still going to use the words as it showcases my points on the absurdity of it and the disregard to humanity in general.

  98. bigstick…my last comment wasn’t directed specifically to you…just in general. I’m not arguing your points…I find them valid considering I ditched religion all together as well…but points can be made and made strongly without reducing the existence of one’s children to mere animal actions. That is intolerable…and not very good arguing tactics. You immediately get a rise and self defense measures go up…then all debate after that is pretty much moot. Just so you know. A good debater does not need to resort to such base and crass language to make a point and make it well.

  99. @Coolred38

    Point taken and when I do use it in is in the construct of the core base of why the churches truly exist. The rest is fluff that they constructed around it to sell their brand of brainwash. I will admit that some religions have grown up somewhat but that faction is always part of them and their is alway a fundalmentist lurking somewhere wanting to send us back beyond the dark ages.

  100. Financial incentives are powerful motivators and the same is happening here with scholars I guess. During the rise of previous empires scholars where considered among the poor of society and had to be given financial support from bayt almal, as their main concern was on improving quality of life through their studies and education. However as times move forward we notice that they are incentive based as more tend to have conservative views to be shown as part of an elite group that are strict on moral codes and would be more respected in society.

    Islam is ‘usr’ and ‘بعثت لأتمم مكارم الأخلاق’ (sent to perfect good manners). Theres a vast line between cultural beliefs and religion and for some reason they tend to mix them.

    May we all be blessed with wisdom and allot of patience : )

  101. Hi lynn. I think you are mistaken. Muslims are permitted to marry woman of the Book(jew or chritian) but there are some conditions attached. if those conditions are not fulfilled , that marriage is not HALAL for muslims. Ref: AL-Quran5:5
    Moreover muslims are not permitted to marry MUSHRIK wether Jew or Christian,Hindu, Sikh, Budha. Mushrik (Idolators,unbelievers etc. Ref AL-Quran 2:221
    I hope you will read for your knowledge.

  102. Question: if Muslims are not to live around non-Muslims, then how come it is okay for a Muslim to marry non-Muslims from Abrahamic religions?

    Because it is all about sex and power. Why would Muslims males deprive themselves of the chance to take pleasure? You notice that most restrictions (or burdens) are placed on Muslim women, not men.

    It is so bad that all Islamic jurists agree that if a woman married to a non-Muslim converts, she must leave her husband.

    So, if a woman converts to Islam, and is married to a nice, kind, upright, responsible non-Muslim man, she must leave him – even if they have children – and find herself a Muslim husband, who is, regardless of his morals, by definition superior to that evil unbeliever.

    That is what Islam teaches.

    So, Sami, what do you think about this?

  103. @jay – IS that true ? or are you just egging Sami on 🙂

    if it is i thnk that is one of the stupidest edict i have ever heard .! so who follows that?

  104. @radhaa,

    Sadly jay is right…

  105. @Moq – Ok but who intheir right mind will blow up a marriage just because they converted !!!! i’m sure if you look at the stats there will ne none.

    Of course if you’re marriage is going down the tubes, this would be one way to get a quickie divorce without any needless explanations. 🙂 i can see people doing that .

    But leaving a spouse and kids just because you decided to follow some thing else is plain IDIOTIC . and the human species is quite intelligent ( mostly)

  106. Somewhat related to what Jay mentioned …

    I read a book recently where a secular Muslim woman married a Jewish man. Both are Iranian. When the Islamic Republic took over the country, she was questioned and knew she could be killed for committing adultery since her marriage was not legal in the eyes of the state.

    The thing is, she and her husband had been married decades before the intolerant people took over, but I suppose there was no grandfathering clause for those who had married pre-Islamic revolution.

    I tend to agree that the reason Muslim men can marry outside the faith is for sexual/power reasons. Islam makes great provisions to satisfy its men … even heaven, according to most, is a great place for sex (with a number of women.) One of my Muslim female friends thinks this was Muhammad’s way of getting the Arab men to follow Islam … sex is a great incentive.

  107. radha…according to muslims…muslim women are not allowed to be married to nonmuslim men. haram if at any point in her marriage she decides to wisely convert to islam…it is now considered a form of adultery (unmarried sex) to be married and sleeping with a nonmuslim man. If she is in a western environment…she may get dirty looks, “helpful” advice about her soul and the future of her children…that are now considered muslim as well etc…but if she is in an arab/muslim country…the law might even step in and forcefully end her marriage whether she wants it or not. It has happened before. Muslim men are very possessive about their muslim women…even newly converted ones. The belief is …we can sleep with and marry your women as god said so…but you cannot sleep or marry our women…cause god said so. We will make muslims out of your women to have more muslim babies with…you will just make whores out of our women. Period.

  108. If a Muslim women is married to a non-Muslim she has to get him to convert or she is committing adultery. Resistance is futile and you will be assimilated.

  109. @coolred – ok i have to agree especially when so many of you say it’s true but i still don’t think any rational human being , especially a woman nd mom could follow this rule in good faith .. Just saying but then again there’s no lack of loonies inthis world either.

  110. and just to set the record straight , i must have married a paragon since he never asked me ,told me, pressurised me or forced me to convert.. yet he seems to be able to sleep soundly at night without too much worry about his soul 🙂 I should probably thank god or rather thank My husband’s well developed cortex i think .

  111. radha…you would be surprised (maybe) at how many women have serious conflicts of interest over this very issue. Some dont care and just carry on with the marriage…others are in moral agony about it. When you convert to a new you well know…you more extreme than probably at any other point of your religious life.

  112. @Sami – ‘I hope you will read for your knowledge’

    I could say the same to YOU Sami, considering that I DID say the same thing as you how did you read anything different? My comment said that Muslim men can marry women from the people of the book but Muslim women must marry Muslim men because the children will follow the father’s religion. Is that not correct?

    @Radha – ‘Ok but who intheir right mind will blow up a marriage just because they converted !!!!’

    Seriously radha? LOL How many decriptions of ‘reverts’ have you heard here and you don’t believe that they would do that? lol

  113. Radha, Thank your husband. Sounds to me like he is a keeper! (Either that or you are a good cook, mother, housekeeper or or or…)

    What really get me is that under this “rule”, any Muslim man is superior to any non-Muslim man when it comes to marriage (or other things, I guess). A lazy, cheating wife-beater, who is Muslim, is better than a gentle, responsible loving non-Muslim husband according to the Quran and sharia law.

    I believe the New Testament addresses this issue, saying that it is better not to married (unequally yoked) but if a Christian is married to a non-Christian, one justifies (not sure how) the other and the marriage can be maintained.

    Personally any spouse that leaves the other because of some religion or ideology, well the abandoned one is probably better off.

    then s

  114. Hi lynn. You are not right. Muslim men and women must marry Muslim.
    I quote:
    Al-Quran 2:221 reads; Do not marry non-believing women, unless they join your faith. A slave woman who believes is better than a free woman who does not believe, even thoughthe latter may appear more appealing to you.
    Similarly do not wed your womento non-believers untill they accept your faith.A slave manwho believes in Allah is better than a free man who does not, even though he may be more attractive to you.
    (WHY IS THAT, because) Non-believersinvite you to the fire; while Allah by His Grace invites youto the Garden of Bliss and His Forgiveness.
    I hope Lynn you understand yhe point. There is no compultion to belive.

  115. @ Sami,

    Now I know for sure that I am hell bound regardless of all the good deeds I have done or could ever do. Some one has to go to hell and report to the rest what it feels like to be in the company of 73 virgins or is it 70? Stay tuned.

  116. Sami, the question is not if one can marry this or that, but what should a woman do if she converts to Islam but her husband does not.

    Quote: It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry (or be married) a non-Muslim from any other religion, whether from among the Jews or Christians, or any other kaafir religion.
    Quote: If a woman becomes a Muslima and her husband is a kaafir, then it becomes mandatory for her to separate from him and it is not permissible for her to remain with him in his state of shirk (disbelief), as per Allah’s injunction (interpretation of the meaning): “… do not send them back to the disbelievers—they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them…” (Al-Mumtahinah 60:10).

    I doubt that you can find any ruling / fatwa on Islamic sites that says that a Muslim woman can stay married to a non-Muslim for more than 3 months. It is that simple and clear.

    We non-Muslims are really really horrible people. Last week I even ate bacon! What woman would want to stay with a guy that eats bacon and drinks caipirinhas?

    As to “There is no compulsion to believe” – get real. Islam is full of compulsion, rules, and rituals – and many of these are enforced by coercion. Hey, have you ever heard of the “apostasy laws”?

    Note: Verse 2:221 is usually translated as “polytheists” or Idolaters, rather than “unbelieving. What translation are you quoting from? I have never seen that wording?

  117. Yeah, Ali, but are they believing virgins or just plain old kaffir virgins? And why hell?

    On the other hand, why inexperienced virgins and not women that know what they are doing?

    Think of it like this. As far as I know, Mother Theresa and Susan Boyle are virgins – and I donate them to you. Now if I can find 70 more like them you will have your quota. I am all heart! Always thinking of the other.

  118. You nonbelievers need redemption, No Yes? Don’t despair read below:

    “The World needs Islamic guidance” Says the King

    CDHR’s Commentary: In a speech read on his behalf at an influential Muslim scholars’ conference in November 2011, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia sounded self-assured that “Only Islam’s mercy, light and guidance can provide people with a way forward in life and toward the Hereafter.” The King went on to implore all Muslims to convince non-Muslims to come to and embrace the Muslim faith [i.e., the Saudi brand of Islam, Wahhabi doctrine] because he inexplicably believes that non-Muslims are in need of redemption and “Islam, with its comprehensive divine values and a balanced view of life, is alone capable of rescuing humankind from its current behavioral predicament…”

    The King reminded Muslims that it’s their obligation to convert non-Muslims to Islam, “The Muslim Ummah [community] has a responsibility to call people to Islam through its Da’wa [Call] work around the globe.” Perhaps King Abdullah is not cognizant of the fact that he is presiding over one of the most religiously oppressed and least politically free countries on earth. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam, home to its two holiest shrines, the Quran is its constitution and the Shariah is its law. In other words, Saudi Arabia is ruled in accordance with Islamic teachings, laws and commands, as interpreted by the Kingdom’s Hambali/Wahhabi “religious” men.
    King Abdullah’s well-timed and pointed plea to the 1.5 billion Muslims during their holiest occasion, the annual pilgrimage rituals, and its far-reaching implications never made it to Western news outlets, despite the fact that the West is his target. One would think that King Abdullah is asking Muslims to perform the impossible given the current slaughtering of Muslims by other Muslims, but he is not. Millions of people around the world are economically hurting, vulnerable and looking for solutions from any source, specially the divine ones.

    It is not accidental that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, particularly in Western societies where the overwhelming majority of the populations see Islam as a belief, not as a domineering value system that controls every aspect of its adherents’ lives, perceptions and relations with non-Muslims. The majority of Muslims have been brainwashed into believing that the rule of law, freedom of choice and individual liberty are antithesis to divine laws, therefore blasphemous.

    King Abdullah’s call on Muslims to spread Islam and its Shariah law must not be taken lightly. He is the “Custodian” of Islam’s two holiest shrines in Mecca and Madina to which most of the world’s 1.5 billion poverty stricken, oppressed and indoctrinated Muslims look for guidance, instructions and money. It would be naïve and myopic to think that the King’s call would fall on deaf ears as many in the West seem to think. After all, he is the absolute ruler of the most religiously and financially influential country in Arab and Muslim lands and beyond.

    Prominent Muslim scholars from the prestigious Al-Azhar University and others have described the Saudi brand of Islam, Wahhabism, as enemy number one of Islam and Muslims. The former President of Indonesia Abdulrahman Wahid, a world renowned Muslim scholar himself, called on the international community to unite and defeat the Wahhabi doctrine because it poses a deadly threat to democracies and harmony among people. The West should listen and prevent Islamist ideology from taking root in Western societies, where it will result in social strife, divisions and conflict as is the case in many Arab and Muslim countries and communities. Read article

  119. @ Ali

    They are running out of time. It is costing them a great deal to desalinize. They are now thinking of having the population pay for water. They are bleeding more to keep the poor from galvanizing. They have a high unemployment level and a large pool of young people with no where to go. They are spending money to shore up their borders and stabilizing other countries in an attempt to influence political advantage. They have no sustainable resource other than oil at this time. They are dependent on foreign workers to do just about everything for them. The majority of people who run the necessary aspects of their country for wealthy are ex-pats. They are dependent upon outside forces for their defenses and much of their GDP. They are already having internal disputes where the military is being called in and this will probably fuel further disputes due to the handling of the matter.

    They are in a constant state of censorship. It takes a great deal of resources to keep people from accessing information and sharing it. They are in a constant state of gender separation. Again, resources being spent with no return to society. They will not be able to keep this up. There are already too many who would give up that environment.

    Their leadership will be changing dramatically and possibly often after the death of this King. The next king may become more conservative thereby creating hugh internal strife. They are already having internal problems this will cause it to get worse.

    Issue for Islam currently: Many western are becoming more knowledgeable of the tenets of Islam. In addition, the media reporting the fact that muslims are embracing more and more fundalmental aspects of the religion. Then demanding observance to those tenets particularly those aspects that are seen to be oppressive, backwards, and to many vile are beginning to polarize sections of populations. Many countries are now starting to address many of those tenets and teachings.

    Given what I have laid out I think Saudi is the one in for an awakening on numerous fronts but none more impacting than their own internal issues with resources (GDP/human) within the next decade.

  120. @Sami- Make up your mind. Earlier you wrote ‘I think you are mistaken. Muslims are permitted to marry woman of the Book(jew or chritian) but there are some conditions attached.’ and now you say they cannot? ‘People of the Book’ are considered believers ‘in God’ and they are to be tolerated (unlike those heathenous idolating HINDUS). Women cannot marry anything but another Muslim. The reason being that the children are considered ‘property’ of the FATHER and the father is the one to lead the family. Therefore a Christian or Jewish man could ONLY have Jewish children (according to the thinking of the time). A Muslim man would have Muslim children no matter what his wife’s religion is so her religion is not as important. If she does not agree to raise her children as Muslims he is not supposed to marry her. It is all about the children, nothing to do with the man being corrupted by a non-Muslim wife. That would be UNthinkable in that patriarcal society. Everyone knew that the MAN was the one that decided the family’s choice, even Christian and Jewish men. I hope Sami you understand the point. There is no compultion to believe but read up on your own religion.

  121. The “breeding like rabbits” shit has got to go. Does anyone on here consider that a large portion of the women in this world who live in poor countries, including islamic/muslim ones, have absolutely NO control over their bodies…in which case whether they get pregnant 10 times in their lives or not is not left up to them to decide. The bodies, including their wombs, belong to the men in their cultures…so they are not allowed to refuse sex, prevent pregnancy, or decide ultimately how many children they will have before they are unable to have more.

    Women in these countries do not generally wake up in the morning thinking….well I hope I get to breed like a rabbit and get pregnant one more time…just to up the numbers of muslims. I would guess most of them wake up in the morning and probably think something along the lines of…god Im tired…have some mercy on me ok…cause I can’t do this much longer. (in regards to anything at all, not specifically in the line of breeding like an animal)

    Cause I know I did.

    Not only are you guys reducing these women to mere containers for sperm, which their men already have done, you are reducing them to something less than human…which makes you no better than the men who have also done that. Good on ya…go and save the world from the horrible muslim men…but first take a class on Seeing the World From More than Your Own Narrow Perspective 101.

  122. Thank you Cool Red.

  123. @ Lynn 17 December and all others too.
    I am not changing my mind. Thank you for the comments you made on my earlier comments. I may have not been able to make it absolutely clear.However let me try again.
    Muslims are permitted to marry Women of the Book if they are not unbelievers and not Mushrik. Also there are conditions to be ful filled as laid down in AL-Qur’an 5:5 Most importantly those women must be CHSTE.
    Muslim men and women are not permitted to marry any non-believers and MUSHRIK (including JEWS and CHRITIANS) though those women and men are attractive. Ref: 2:221
    I hope you know the meaning of”CHASTE” and “MUSHRIK”
    It is very important subject and need much deep thinking,regarding Children, Domestic voilence, religious arguments,Hnour killing etc. more importantly practice of religion.
    Please forgive me for any mistakes.

  124. Mslims must not marry women who believe in TRINITY and believe “Jesus is Son of GOD”
    Muslims must not marry women who blieve “EZRA” is Son of God”
    and Angels are “Daughters of God” though they may be believing in One God.

  125. “women in this world who live in poor countries, including islamic/muslim ones, have absolutely NO control over their bodies…in which case whether they get pregnant 10 times in their lives or not is not left up to them to decide.”

    A VERY sobering and immensely sad thought. Momentarily putting myself in their shoes, meaning looking down the loooong road of life, I cannot imagine that this would be my lifelong fate. Hard to imagine that if it were I, as woman, I would have little to no say in my life for all of my life.

  126. There is a simple fact that women don’t understand. That is that men will never stand up for women on autonomy without women demanding it and asking for this. The reason for the most part is quite simple and has nothing to do against women for the most part, it is just it is not a man’s issue. They fight for their issues because it has to do with them. If women want more they must fight for themselves and demand more. Then get men involved. Many men feel they give a lot to their wives and children. They think that, that is enough. Many times they don’t understand the limitations unless they were put into this position. Even medicine was initially limited to men on their responses. Haven’t you read where they are finding women respond differently to certain treatment than men. This is because it was initially geared toward the health of men. Things have changed and are continuing to change for the better as far as I am concerned. Women need to understand quite frankly that in many cases men are just oblivious to many aspects of what a woman needs. If women don’t start saying this isn’t working for me then they think it is. Men are terrible mind readings and just to point out also not good at hints either. Women need to organize and focus on issues that directly affect them such as proper medical attention, autonomy, etc. As far as culture is concerned until women want change and assert themselves more it just will not happen.

    Women had better come to the realization that men will not pave this road for them, they must do it themselves. They should expect opposition as anything that changes is typically met with resistance. If women back down especially during the formation of a new government on the issues they are only hurting themselves and ensuring their daughters more turmoil later on. That is just a fact. Women should never think that their rights should be discussed later, dealt with later because odds are those rights will be not be given or discussed anytime soon or possible even in their lifetimes.

    Quite frankly most women in the western world who go to church such as Roman Catholic don’t adhere to the tenets of no Birth Control. Why, because it is not in their interest and they have a choice to be able to do that. I like to keep it to where they have a choice, I tend to think they are adult enough to take care of their own lives.

  127. If Muslims are producing children like rabits, what is the problem. They are using their own women, their own sperm, their own strength, their own money. They store their sperm to use for their own women, they do not sleep and whore around and waste.
    The more the sperm is stored the more the women required.
    What is the problems with others?

  128. “They are using their own women” ….
    Boy did you ever get that one right!!!

    “they do not sleep and whore around and waste”
    No, they get more wives or 24 hour marriages of convenience if they want to.

    “The more the sperm is stored the more the women required”
    And where did you get that fanciful idea from???

  129. It’s a problem for the women Sami.

  130. “The more the sperm is stored the more the women required”

    Well, I don’t know…it makes a BIG difference to me HOW the sperm is deposited. If it is deposited by an experienced depositor with all the right words and moves then yes, I DO tend to require more and more! I’m just sayin’…isn’t that right girlfriends? 😉

  131. “The more the sperm is stored the more the women required.”

    This reminds me of the Catholic Church. Sex explained by a virgin…

    @Lynn, Do not talk like that in front of Sami. His savings account is already over loaded. You will just contribute to the problem…

  132. @Lynn, MoQ: You two are bad! (still LOL!)

  133. So apparently there is no muslim in man in the world that is loving and devoted to his wife and has sex with her because he loves and desires her…nope…its all purely for animal like satisfaction and to make islam dominate by sheer numbers alone. And there is no muslim woman in the world that has sex because she wants too and children born of love or want…nope…she is just a sperm vessel and incubator.

    You guys seriously need to take a chill pill. You are reducing ALL muslims to mere animals that have nothing but dirty sex for dirty purposes. Get the fuck over yourselves. Reading this is like reading a christians interpretation when faced with a jungle culture…nothing human going on here..just animals procreating. WTF!!!

    AB…the fact that you find this humorous is sad…or at the very least are not in any way shape or form defending the culture, nationality, or religion your husband came from. Did he produce his children by the methods described here by these experts on all things muslim? Did he approach you in a similar fashion like that? There is such a thing as expressing your opinion…but this is just getting hateful. A bunch of bullies reducing all muslims to mere copulating animals. Sweet.

    I would abandon this blog all together because it in no way resembles the interesting dialogue it once always offered…..but for some reason I am drawn back again and again to read the latest high horse analogy offered by these internet experts. Obviously a fact stands on its own…no need to embellish and degrade to make a point…but its not even that sort of dialogue anymore…just pure no holds barred downgrading of anything to do with muslims or islam at all. Very sad and goodam pathetic.

  134. I am sorry , some are upset but its not me but somebody started saying”muslims breeding like Rabbits”. I just tried to explain what is possible clinically and how it works.
    Muslims are peace loving, caring for all men,women. Muslims celebrate XMAS. Do you remember one of Famous Islamic scholar celebrated Xmas on 24 September in Wembley LONDON. He invited Jews, Chritians, Hindus. Sikhs, many others.

    Merry Xmass to all readers.

  135. the sperm comment is funny but sami , – you don’t understand that many of your women may not want to be the recipient of your largesse.
    hope you keep that in mind .

    As for popping kids out, My dead BIL – has you wives and 11 kids, he married quite late and in the short span of 10+ or so yrs of being married his 2 wives between them have 11 live births and 3 miscarriages !!! there was a poinbt in time when i thought ( to myself and out loud) what these 3 people hoped to achieve by trying to populate the world singlerhandedly.

    however after he died and i was more in-contact with the 2 SIL’s i broached the topic of birth control and she said “my BIl did not permit birth control due to religious reasons” , then i asked her why she never thought of the rhytm meathod ( she was certainly educated) and she said ” Your BIL never permitted us to refuse SEX” !!!! no woman should ever have to say that statement. I never ever blamed them for the kids, one of them told me she prayed she’s get her period every month… one of them is religious the other would walk awayfrom islam if given a choice, but walk away where, how? these women are a few of the helpless ones trapped with no way out.

    so i don’t ever think of them popping babies out i know they have no choice. never had will never have. I blame my BIL totally fro this mess, him and his imam or whomever taught him that particular brand of islam. so nowadays i don’t hesitate to speak ill of the dead man, but his death is a relief in 1 way fro these women, atleast they don’t have to tolerate him. and they never ever want to be married or even step near a man in their lifetime … sad , so sad.

  136. @Coolred – ‘You are reducing ALL muslims to mere animals that have nothing but dirty sex for dirty purposes.’

    Seriously Red, I think you might be the one that needs the chill pill. No one HERE is doing that. I’m sure that there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Muslims and a few Catholics have sex for the same reasons as everyone else in the world. BUT, that does not change the FACT that the religion DOES in fact attempt to reduce it’s followers to mere animals. No one said anything about ‘dirty sex for dirty purposes’. The purpose is to expand their following. I honestly don’t understand why you should get upset about that fact. If that was not in your head when you were making your family then that is fine. If it WAS in your head when you were making your family, that is OK too. Either way, it doesn’t change what the ‘religion’ says, does it?

  137. @AB,

    May our lord GC, the God of politically incorrect and culturally insensitive humor, bless you with a 1000 laughs.

    Now that Preeding (I hope writing it Arabic style gets it under the radar of our self appointed censor), is added to words we cannot say. I think it is appropriate to revisit what Lord GC said about censorship.

    I hope you had the greatest laugh and never let anyone guilty you out for laughing. Keep on smiling our lovely host!!!

  138. @Coolred38:

    Just so you know I don’t think it is just Islam as a religion that does this, I think just about all religions put humans on a base animal level. I actually started with the Catholic religion on this one and started talking about the Catholic doctrine for why birth control was a no-no as it interferred with the procreation needs of the church.

    @ Lynn, isn’t this how this go started?

  139. @bigstick – 🙂 i totally think this is a problem with islam or the way it is taught , obviously many men seem to interpret the religion as
    1. men cannot be denied
    2. men control women
    3. men want to have as many kids as possible – without bothering about said kids mothers opinion…

    the only people i woudn’t blame are the helpless women…

  140. @ Radhaa:

    I dont blame them but they need to realize men are not just going to help them out. They need to start organizing and going against this if not they are only paving the way for more of the same for their daughters. I think this was a problem with most religons but for other religions they are more controlled by secular governments than islam and this keeps them in check to a degree.

  141. Sami, have you ever met a jew that believes that “EZRA” is Son of God”? Actually, Mohammad really didn’t know too much about Judaism or much less Christianity – or even ancient history. Many of the references to Christianity are factually incorrect (example: Mary part of the trinity or Jesus ‘gave’ the gospels). Note also that crucifition was not used in ancient Egypt, and so on.

    The problem is that if you read the Quran, a Muslim can’t really tell if Christians are just misguided “people of the book” or darn polytheists (the trinity thing). At least Muslims males, the ones that marry Christians, are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


  142. Im not anybody’s censor obviously…but just as you appear to be able to express your opinions freely…extend that courtesy to everyone.

    Lynn…actually Im one of those few women in which birthcontrol of any form (other than abstinence..and I swear I was suspicious of that as well near the end) did not work. Regardless of what I was on, and my deep seated hate for the “sperm donor” and any form of contact with him, did not seem to work in preventing pregnancy…and I kept getting pregnant. Of course my hate for the father in noway extended to my children and I considered each pregnancy a blessing….but when I had people who (to this day) look horrified when I mention 5 children…and ask me the very same shit on this blog…damn are you trying to populate the planet all by yourself…I see Red…because it means my children are not wanted or loved…just the means to an end…nothing to do with religion or god or WTFever! just a medical mystery of why birthcontrol doesnt work for me.

    btw I keep chill pills on my desk to take before entering the arena of jesters that this blog has become. Keeps me from laughing my ass off and falling to the floor. At my age…I might get hurt.

  143. Well, you’d never see me horrified at someone having 5 kids. 18 is going a bit too far but, hey, that’s THEIR problem, I don’t have to raise them! That’s the usual reaction that people have when they hear about a large family. It is usually about all the work and money involved in raising a large family rather than some kind of judgement on whether or not you really love or want your kids.

    ‘I see Red…because it means my children are not wanted or loved…’

    Perhaps in YOUR eyes but I doubt that is what anyone else thinks.

    When they hear that I am one of 10 is that what they think? That I wasn’t wanted or loved? So what?! How does that change my life? But, whether my parents loved or wanted us was not important to the Catholic Church just that the sperm was not spilled and wasted. 😉

  144. Lynn…If you were so blase about everything anyone has ever said to you, or possibly thought about you, (as nearly everyone of your comments on this blog indicate) Im surprised you dont live a charmed life. Most people who care little for what others think tend to do so. But then, your comments also indicate your life is anything but charmed so Im curious how you have come to this station in life where nothing anyone says can touch you. Because your just that cool? 😉

  145. Hi jay. Thanks for yr comments. Actually the problem is that you do not belive in Quran nor in Mohammad(pbuh). You do not study Quran. I may correct you that It is not Mohammad(pbuh) but GOD(Allah) told us that Jews call EZRA Son od God and Chritians Call Jesus Son of GOD Ref: AL-Quran 9:30
    Believe me I read Bible,Tora and Quran every day whycant for education.
    Forgive me for any thing you do not like.

  146. Do you think that women should cotrol men.
    If men are denied then do you think men should master— or go to prosti—

  147. I think it is utterly irresponsible to have more than one or at most two children on a planet which is already grossly overpopulated with humans. And people who chose not to burden the planet with their spawn should be given respect, a lot more respect than the ones who produce babies like demented rabbits, they deserve scorn.

    What bugs me most is to have men (women have no say in this in most Muslim communities), so to have these men marrying more than one women and breeding them like rabbits without having the financial means to support all the resulting children and give each of them a proper education and a good start in life. Not to mention have the financial support set up for wives and children in case of death.
    Children are expensive, they need food, medical care and a good education. Very expensive.
    If you don’t have the money you shouldn’t have even one child.

  148. Sami., I think women have the right to decide what happens to their own bodies, if they don’t want to have sex their husband should respect that. And only a total loser would think that does give him the right to go to a prostitute. There’s all sorts of things men can do without having to resort to dishonor themselves and betray their spouse and bother the poor prostitute.

    Women have the right to decide if they want children or not. Any culture or religion which doesn’t allow women the right to decide over their own bodies is wrong.
    And I think anybody who cannot support children should not have children at all.

  149. Do you think that Planet is overpopulated? Have you ever read in any Book(RELIGIOUS BOOKS) that God has restricted the number of children?
    Had there been any restriction then Why God created women, He could have recommended the Gay System on this planet?
    Think before you speak.

  150. Sorry to tell you that King Daud, king soloman, Abraham, Moses, Jacob,Jesus and Mohammad (pbuthem) were illiterate.

  151. Do you think that God has made a mistake to create women? Have you ever read that God whom this planet belongs,restricted the number of children can /canot be produced/ Has God requested humans not to produce any more children as the planet is overpopulated?
    Do you think that God should have recommended GAY SYSTEM?

  152. @sami – ok i thought and thought abot your statement, now it’s your turn to think.

    Why do you think God gave humans a brain? – if not to use it.
    God cannot do all the thinking for you, he expects us to do some of the hard work and justify our existence.

    Why do you think god made a mistake creating woman, no woman can spontaneously reproduce, so having babies is not just her issue.

    Why do you think god ( since you ascribe everything to him) created science and knowledge and the capacity to limit children.

    Did God come specifically and tell men in so many words to go to a prostitute ??? no

    Think Think Think.. god did not recommend a million things that men and women do today, he gave us all a brain and told us think, look around you, keep peace, make sure you don’t hog the resources that belong to our kids future.
    he cannot come an dtell you each and every single think and he’s certainly not going to be recommending one lifestyle over the other.
    As for gays, he made them didn’t he or was he wrong ?

    Do not blame god for the fallacied of man.

  153. @Sami,

    “Do you think that Planet is overpopulated? Have you ever read in any Book(RELIGIOUS BOOKS) that God has restricted the number of children?
    Had there been any restriction then Why God created women, He could have recommended the Gay System on this planet?”

    You start with the assumptions that everyone believes in your God and that God gave the world specific instructions.

    This is exactly why we are over populating the planet. It is followers of Abrahamic religions who cannot think outside of their outdated Dogma. You are basically following the model set by people who lived in the bronze age with very minimal base of knowledge and different population demographics.

    Sorry Sami, but it seems that you are the one who needs to do more thinking.

  154. And of course all Radhaa’s excellent comments are taken for granted that there is a god.
    But there is no proof for the existence of any gods, and all those books you speak about Sami, are so stupid and so wrong in so many subjects, including forgetting the need to restrict breeding like demented rabbits, that even if there is one or more invisible of these skydaddies around, they certainly weren’t able to dictate a good book.

    Using a flawed ancient book, written by flawed, archaic, primates, is a very stupid reason to justify overpopulating a planet with limited resources.
    Neither can these primitive books be a reason to marry wives, deny them the right to use birthcontrol or the right to say ”;no” to sex, and burdening the planet with 11 more useless primates, while not even having the decency to make sure that all these people have enough money to live and get educated. So actually adding 13 beggars to the world who are them having to go to other people to feed and educate them.

  155. Sami, you need to read up a bit.
    And you need to realize that women are human beings, and that they should have the right to say no to breeding children, and say no to sex. Men like you will just have to learn to keep it in your pants or try get better at sex. You know? Get a book learn about techniques and pleasing the other party, and then maybe ‘your” women will get more interested and allow you more sex.

  156. And the ”gay system” is so ideal for this planet: people can love each other, have committed relationships, including lots of sex, and will but rarely procreate.
    Actually it is such a good idea that the fact that the Abrahamic religions have not supported the ”Gay system” is another proof that these ”holy” books were written by stupid fallible primates.

    Any intelligent, omniscient, infallible, invisible being who could see into the future would have promoted the ”gay system” in his or her holy book!

  157. @sami – “Do you think that women should cotrol men”

    Why would you assume taking control of women away from men means giving control of ment o women ???

    cannot it simply mean that each one is in control of themselves. why should there be an inferior and superior position.

    Aren’t we all made equal. does your god not love men and women the same? no ? he prefers me? and if so did he specifically come down and tell you that??

    and i’m really tired of the we are diff and have diff roles in life claim, We are what we want to be, what we make of ourselves, There are a lot of couples int he world where the woman is best placed to earn money and the man is best placed to nurture kids.

    If a book blatently says god prefers man over women, then why inhis infinite wisdom did he not do away with a woman, why on earth didn’t god create man adn make him capable of reproducing all on his own?? why why .

    Aafke – Sami goes under the assumption that there is a god, who am i to break his faith. Personally i may not be too hung up on religions, but i certainly think there is a higher power 🙂 i just don’t think that powers dictates how i live. I see god as a light , solace and sense of my peace inthis chaotic life.

    It just doesn’t mean i trust men who claim to have a personal ear of god 🙂

  158. Radha, I agree with all your comments anyway.

  159. @ Sami … “Do you think that women should cotrol men.
    If men are denied then do you think men should master— or go to prosti—”
    In many cases women should have control over men. If women didn’t feel controlled and if men learned how to please them in all ways including bed then they would NOT be denied sex but would want to please their husband. That’s what YOU need to think about. You don’t get what you want if you control a person and have them under your thumb. You can force people to do things but in the end it won’t be fulfilling for you or make you happy and men just might find out when they go to heaven that if they have ‘controlled’ and abused their women they will live in eternal hell. Now think about that for a bit.

    Another thing to think about … Allah gave men brains and allowed them to create all kinds of things like music, works of art, medicines AND various birth control methods. If Allah gave people the brain power to do these kinds of things then I expect he meant for them to be used and enjoyed.

  160. I need to amend my earlier comment, when I talk about 11 useless people I don’t mean it as a slur on the children, they after all can never be blamed for the selfishness of their parent. After all where there is only one parent in power only one parent can be blamed. But I do blame that parent. How selfish and stupid can you be to father 11 human beings with nothing to provide for them. How evil to bring into the world 11 human beings and doing nothing for their future. Not giving them the tools to succeed in the world.
    (And not taking care of the wives future either, that’s two human beings more he treated with singular selfishness and carelessness)

    How can any decent human being do this, marry two women, breed on, and still feel good about himself?

  161. “You might want to know that Christians consider the word “Xmas” to be insulting..”

    Well that’s all right since many people consider christianity itself insulting. Sort of evens out.

    Currently the christian right is working very hard to get birth control out of the hands of the poorest women of society by making it unavailable in planned parenthood clinics etc. Religion poisons everything…and none is better than the other. None.

  162. the cure for poverty is the empowerment of women, it has been proven to be so all over the world. And the moment you try it the religious clergy will try to stop it.

  163. @Coolred -‘Most people who care little for what others think tend to do so.’

    Really? Got any data to support that? 😉

    Could you just imagine the Fuckery that my life and mind would be if I allowed people’s (especially stranger’s) opinions on petty things, or things that I have no control over, to upset me? If someone is able to easily ‘get your goat’ then you need a better fence. Perhaps that is one of the many benefits from being from a large family? You learn at an early age that if you don’t get a thick skin you WILL be eaten!!

    Also, there is a HUGE difference between ‘caring little for what others think’ and ‘not giving a shit what strangers on a blog(or people that don’t even deserve your respect i.e. bad guys) think about you’ No? I’m really thinking you need a session with Dr. Lynn 😉

    ‘Currently the christian right is working very hard to get birth control out of the hands of the poorest women of society’

    Don’t you mean abortions? How/where are they trying to stop birth control? How did they not manage to stop the ‘morning after pill’ from being sold ‘over the counter’ if they can stop birth control being available in planned parenthood clinics?

  164. @Prosciutto – ‘You might want to know that Christians consider the word “Xmas” to be insulting’

    That’s the first I ever heard THAT one. If it was I’m sure that this overly poilitically correct country that I live in would have done something to stop Xmas from being everywhere around at Christmas time.

  165. Didn’t say they were successful..just that they are trying to stop it. Big difference.

    As for having a thick skin…if I personally did not have one…Im actually quite certain I would have either lost my mind…or committed suicide a very long time ago. The difference is…I can disagree with someone…or show them the ignorance of their ways…or simply kick their ass…without resorting to some of the asinine remarks that some on here consider actual debate like commentary…yourself included at times.

    And if I ever needed therapy…I would definitely seek out someone that might actually be able to cure me…not send me further over the edge. 😉

  166. @Coolred – No, you didn’t say they were successful but my question was where/how are they trying to stop it? I honestly have never heard that so it was a legitimate question.

    The issue here was not about you ‘disagreeing’ with anyone but about you being offended because your former religion, among others, wants you to ‘breed like rabbits’ (to use a term you hate) in order to increase the ummah/church ;-). Were you just offended by the term used or by the fact that the religions asked for it? Or is it that you deny that the relgions call for it? I guess I’m just confused about what, exactly, has you so offended and why.

  167. As a child growing up in a Christian environment it was common to write Xmas rather than Christmas so there certainly was no offense taken by anyone over the use of Xmas. It really is just a shortened way of writing Christmas. People do not say the word X mas … it’s just a written abbreviation.

  168. I think Coolred was offended because women in many parts of the world have no say re: how many children they produce. If their men want sex, they give it. They cannot refuse. I understood her defending the women who have no control over their own bodies. Who are told angels curse them if they say no, that it is their wifely duties to please their men at all times.

    “Breeding like rabbits” should be an accusation against MEN who use their women to spread their seed in order to show how virile they are. Those men who care little how exhausted their wives are, how many of them need breaks from pregnancy and only seek their own glory at the expense of their families.

    That’s how I understood it anyway.

  169. Me too, agree with Susanne.

  170. Here is something about Xmas in history:

    “But it turns out that “Xmas”­ isn’t a modern convention at all. It was used commonly in 16th-century Europe, when many people began using the term “Christos,” the Greek translation for Christ, to refer to Jesus. The letter chi in the Greek alphabet is symbolized by an X and translates to “ch.” So along with the Greek letter rho for “r”, the term Xmas was used to refer to the birth of Jesus as an informed abbreviation, not an offensive one. Xmas was a way for Christian scholars to refer to Jesus respectfully in an ancient language — not to disrespect his name with a harsh symbol. In fact, variations of “Xmas” date back to 1021 .”

  171. Thanks for clarifying the correct meaning of X in Xmas. I also had another friend email me on the correct meaning of the X. 😀

  172. Hyacinth Bucket doesn’t like people using ”X”-mas…

  173. @ Sami

    Jew’s do not believe that Jesus is the son of god. Christianity is a different spin on that religion using the torah as an anchor to which it tries to derive it’s legitimacy as a religion. It uses the doctrine that was already in place as a spring board to deviate and allowed itself a prophet by using the same old tiring the prophets was born of a virgin stance that was apparently the standard entry for many prophets in the day. Plagiarism at its best. Still fantasy nothing more. The Koran heck it is a jumbling mess trying to use the springboard of the torah and Christianity to obtain legitimacy to the sequel. I have notice that sequels get worse often times. Just look at all the sequels they write in movies, most are horrible or been there done that before. Who knows where the original came from of the Torah, I have heard that there is quite a bit of stories from the Samaritans that mirrors the stories of the Torah as well. Again, fantasy, hoax, all to control a populace, hell bent on believing supernatural entity that will and never has been proven to exist. However, people have proven that by following the fantasy and not using their intelligent or moral abilities it creates untold horror and suffering.

  174. Lynn…I am offended because you (all of you) are degenerating women by using that phrase into nothing more than animals..animals breed..humans conceive. Period. Religion aside…whether a woman has 2 kids or 10…she was not an animal at any point in their conception..and to refer to her as such is disgusting.

    For women to refer to other women in such loving terms is even more disgusting. We are our own worst enemies.

    Thanks susanne…close to what I was thinking.

  175. @Coolred – Sorry, I don’t really see it that way. I think some animals might be offended that you would say that. 😉 Breeding is breeding is breeding whether done between two humans or two rabbits. Rabbits tend to do it VERY frequently hence the expression. You’ve never used the expression ‘eating like a pig’? Or would you find that offensive too? 😉

  176. Lynn…whether YOU see it that way means little to how I see it. As highly as you believe your opinion to be about everything and anything…I am entitled to my own.

    And no..I do not use that pig expression…but thanks for asking.

  177. @Coolred – Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as always. I just have to wonder sometimes at the things that offend you. If you were to go back and read your previous comments you would probably have to wonder yourself. It’s like a moving target trying to pin it down. lol

    We were discussing religious doctrine and what it advises it’s followers regarding procreation not what ‘people’ do so I guess I just don’t understand why you would take it so personally?

  178. Well I guess that is the difference between what you take personally and what I take personally. You don’t have to understand what motivates me…just as I don’t always understand what motivates you with some of your comments. To my just like to argue for arguments sake…but Im sure you see it differently.

  179. @Coolred -The question I asked was would you find that expression ‘eating like a pig’ equally offensive?

  180. ‘To my just like to argue for arguments sake…but Im sure you see it differently’

    Sure do! I was thinking more of ‘like to take offense, for offense’s sake’ LOL

  181. @Coolred:

    This started off by discussing how religion reduces us down to the base level of an animal. That is what has been discussed. That is where we get the sacred sperm; it is from religion.

  182. “Prosciutto” is Lucretia. Ha, then Lucretia is “Prosciutto” is Lucretia!. All those Sherlock Holmes, Perry Mason and most of all, Rex Stout, are paying off.

    But “prosciutto” is a ham. Presunto in Portuguese. I just can’t link ham and poison. So please explain.

  183. Happy winter solstice everybody!

  184. It would only go to show that if I dont use a particular phrase that is in common use in my language then chances are I have issues with it. Yes, I find that phrase obnoxious…not to mention spending 20 years as a muslim…I find it repulsive as well. But that’s just me. However, to my recollection I have never had anyone refer to me eating in such a way…so I have never personally been offended by it…but Im sure I would be….then again, you find it hard to understand what offends me. How about this, my father referred to me as a “lard ass” (tho I wasnt fat) during my youth…lard ass is associated with pigs of course, so I do have a angry spot when it comes to equating humans with them in some form or another. But again, that’s just me and my old sensitive self.

  185. @ Lynn
    There is another expression “YOU PIG”! What does it mean. Is it offensive to use.

  186. Hi Y’All …..

    Merry Winter Annual Solstice Gift Exchange Festival & Merry XXXmas

  187. @lucretia – “Are you saying that these women have no personal responsibility for their plight?”

    They are helpless. sure they can all rise up in protest but even there there are some women who will not, who agree with the men ( may not necessarily be right in our mind) but it is intheirs.

    those that don’t want to please their men and have multiple children do not have much of a choice.
    Once you have a couple children your hands ra epretty much tied. sure they can leave their kids and go out inthe streets to protest , deny their husbands and get smacked, jailed, or worse perhaps?? and then what happens to those kids, we’ve already established some men are pigs ,, who couldn’t care less for their offsprings…
    it is very hard to be a mom and see your child suffer. It is not like the west or east or whatever, I have lived in saudi and its a strange closed place.
    I don’t know know how ot explain.

    the only thing that can trigger any and all change is if the govt removed those draconian laws that are against women. and makes the law the same for men and women, till then, men have the koran, sharia and the law ontheir side and no one to help the women.

    this is a fact of life there.

    Now trying to leave may work for those wealthy, dual passport holders. but 2 women with 11 children, no money, some education and no exposure contained int he house has no chance in HELL of getting out of there.

    i can’t find 1 single country that needs them or will issue a visa and feed them..

  188. Harry, loved it!!! All of the Books are fables anyway – aren’t they???

  189. @Sheikh – ‘There is another expression “YOU PIG”! What does it mean. Is it offensive to use.’

    I don’t know. You would have to ask the person using it. Could mean they are sloppy, could mean they are a man acting like an animal. I’ve used it in many different situations myself. 😉

    @radhaa – ‘there are some women who will not, who agree with the men’

    Which is why I don’t blame the ‘people’, not even the men, but rather the religion.

    But, I don’t recall religion being brought up by the Octomom for her reason to have all those babies, out of wedlock, with no income.

  190. @Jay – ‘I just can’t link ham and poison.’

    Me neither but you would think that pork=poison if you were to ask my extremist daughter.

  191. @lynn – lets not go into “octomom” we’ve have more than enough debates inthe staff lounge in regards to the ethics of if it’s right or wrong to implant idiots with embryos 🙂

  192. I enjoyed the ‘Keeping Up Appearances’ video. I could watch Hyacinth for an entire afternoon, she is quite entertaining!

  193. @Harry

    Excellent video. Enjoyed it. The fairytale of religions becoming more exposed day by day.

  194. Carol, I am so sorry I can’t invite you to one of my ”Candlelight suppers”.

  195. me too, Aafke. You’re an amazing cook!

  196. If I ever needed proof that Quran is a human production, it’s the “Ezra is a son of God” business. Whoever wrote the book was not paying attention when it came to that point. Any Jew with basic Old Testament familiarity would laugh in your face upon hearing that, as it’s a basic tenet of Judaism that God is one and has no children. That’s a big Quranic oooops! if there ever was one.

    If you ever find a JEWISH source calling Ezra a son of God, please provide one. I think Jews are a stronger authority on what Jews believe than what Muslims SAY Jews believe.

  197. There is only one reason “religious” books were written: To control women sexually and to oppress and exploit people in the name of gods as the men who wrote the books intend it to be. Go figure if you have not figure such simple facts by now.

  198. Thanks Luc,
    I remember a joke about power of women over men and helplessness of women. A Rabii was asked why Moses was called on the MOUNTAIN. Rabii said actually his wife was called on the mountain but she said to Moses “You go and listen to him” because she is in her MONTHLY—Cy

  199. I don’t see the joke.
    I don’t see where women’s supposed helplessness comes in either.

    Here’s a good joke about men, women and intelligence:

  200. Maybe something was lost in translation? Perhaps the joke is that if SHE (being in her monthly) were to talk to him she might read him the riot act for not giving them better directions to Israel and while she was at it she’d give HIM a list of rules of what she expected of HIM from now on, or ELSE!

  201. The picture is of Turkish women in traditional ‘shershaf’ most probably in Turkey; not Saudi women in Saudi

  202. What do you mean ”traditional”? These black bags are often quite new to the culture.
    So I did a google search on traditional Turkish dress, and what do I find? Gorgeous colorful embroidered garments (like the real traditional Saudi women’s clothes) and not one black bag.

  203. We have discussed enough. its not worth any more. Thank you.

  204. @ lucretia of 23 December and

    Can you tell me who gave powers to ADAM to rule EVE? She became pregnant 150 times and she produced twins (boy and girl) for 149 times.Lynn read for yourself.

  205. Sami, you are pulling our leg right? Come on, only a very prolific cat could have that much offspring.

  206. But aren’t Adam and Eve just a symbol of the first humans? They aren’t actually real are they???

  207. No they aren’t.

  208. Real I mean. We do know that every human outside of Africa is related from one woman leaving the African continent. So that African woman would be our Eve.
    But there is no ”Adam”. But we are all very closely related.
    There is still no chance in heaven that she had like hundreds of children! People didn’t get that old, and a lot of ”primitive” people have rules about women having children, like one every two or three years. They are much wiser than people are now.

  209. 300 Kids !!! really !!! I’m going to send this one ot my OB friend 🙂 ha ha ha

  210. @Aafke-Art of Jan6
    How can you say “There is still no chance in heaven that she hadlike hundreds of children” Have you been to heaven? Secondly do you say you are not the offspring of Adam And Eve.
    How do you say They are not REAL. Are they fake ADAM and EVE?
    I don’t your point.
    I think you read the history of Adam, may be Genesis too.

  211. @Radha
    O k let me know the reply of your O B Friend with refrences. Thanks

  212. Sami,

    Could you provide references on 149 children borne in pairs by A&E. I have read koran/hadith and i don’t find any reference. Thx ….

  213. I am the offspring of primordial slime.

  214. @honesttAbe

    You are right, Quran does not mention the pregnancy of Eve and the children, neither in hadith. I told you to read History of ADAM and EVE and TORAH.
    Or Ask any learned RABII.

  215. So do you actually really believe that Adam and Eve were 10 meters high and spawned 500 children???
    I mean do you really believe that happened?

  216. If one believes in the teachings of the Bible, then one would believe in Adam and Eve. It all comes down to a matter of belief.

  217. Exactly, Carol. I guess we can all believe in books of fables or fiction.

  218. @bigstick:

    Islam does not treat women horribly, its just that the pre-Islamic culture of some countries has misogynistic aspects, it sometimes manifests itself. Please don’t generalize.

  219. @MoQ:

    “It is followers of Abrahamic religions who cannot think outside of their outdated Dogma”

    Enlighten me. I’d be curious to see what one who has evidently never heard of al Mutazilah, the Golden Age of Islam, or the process of Islamic scholarship has to say.

  220. @Wendy – obviously we have different points of views. I am not going to degenerate yours and I’d appreciate if you would do the same.

  221. @ Al Mutazili-المعتزلي‎,

    1–Are women = to men in inheritance?

    2–Is a woman testimony in court= to man?

    3–Do women have= rights to children as men?

  222. No, Ali, but they are in the Wicked West.
    And what with people getting around and learning there are more respectful ways to treat women some people might get ideas. And that is the bad influence which has to be repelled!

  223. Sorry, Carol.

  224. @Al Mutazili-المعتزلي‎,

    “I’d be curious to see what one who has evidently never heard of al Mutazilah, the Golden Age of Islam, or the process of Islamic scholarship has to say.”

    If you want to hear from such a person, then why are you giving me the question.

    There are plenty of people who have not heard about the Mutzaliah, Islamic Golden Age and Islamic research processes. I just happen to be not one of those people. Now if you want to have a debate with someone who is thoroughly Knowledgeable in these areas then let me know in the debate page, because this topic is outside the focus of the article.

    Note you are already starting with unsupported assumptions (i.e. you are not applying any logical method). You need to have a much better game if you want to debate on those topics 🙂


  225. Apology graciously accepted Wendy!

  226. @ Ali, wendy, bigstick,american bedu and moq
    Actually we read scientists, philosophers, Darwin etc etc but we ignore the books written by God and sent down by the God. We call them Abrahamic Stories , old fashionesd stories etc etc,
    When God created ADAM and Eve, Bible tells us “God blessed them and said to them ” Be fruitful and increase in number: Fill the earth and subdue it. Genesis1:28
    God said to women ” Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you”. Genesis3:16
    Adam lived 930 years and then he died Genesis5:5 Do you think that Adam produced only one or two children in 930 yeats?
    Think think and think

  227. @Sami,

    But the point is, no one believes Adam lived 930 years. Your references do not proof that as they do not provide any evidence.

    Some of us do not believe Adam and Eve even existed. Show us evidence then we may believe you 🙂

    Most of us read the religious books along with scientific books. We do ignore the religious books because they just make unsupported claims. We believe in scientific books that provide evidence for their claims. We also see the benefits of science in everything around us.

    I hope the above provides you with some information about what others use as basis for their arguments.

    Now it is your turn to Think Think Think. And once all that thinking comes up with some kind of proof for those wild stories, then you can present it to make us believe you.

  228. You are right, I do not claim that you believe me. You believe sceince, good luck. Science has no proof of God’s existence. Do you think that we are the offsprings of animals (monkeys) according to Darwin etc. In that case we really dont need any Holy Books or guidance. We should behave like animals not humans. Then we sould not be known as humans, who gave us this name”Human”

  229. @Sami,

    “Then we sould not be known as humans, who gave us this name”Human””

    I think we are capable of creating names that distinguish all animals. You know naming things is really easy. Everyday we find new species and we manage quite fine in naming them. Sometimes we find more than one name. Example Sus scrofa domesticus, Hog or Pig are all names for the same animal. Similarly you can say Homo Sapiens, Humans, man etc. are also names for one species of animals. These names can also be different in different languages.

    I am not sure why this naming process is baffling you so much, that you have to attach something miraculous to it.

  230. I would expect anyone that believed the twin stories would also believe in Adams first wife Lilith. Origins both in Jewish mythology. And actually Darwin never said we were descended from monkeys- though since 98+% of our DNA is the same as a Chimpanzee – a common ancestor is not such a far stretch.

  231. @Sandy,

    We are technically still are monkey’s (primates). I think Sami just needs to get more humble and stop fighting the urge to eat those bananas 🙂

  232. “stop fighting the urge to eat those bananas”

    that will be me after starting my trial!

  233. “…books written by God…”? This will offend many hallucinators.

    First time I hear god is a write.

    Happy reading—

  234. Shariah and human rights are very compatible and those who disagree tell the people in the video below to take a hike.

  235. I am sorry ,Sir. I meant the “Gods words”

  236. But what proof do you have that they are gods words? All Abrahamic religions have rather messed up books, with many contradictory passages, and many misogynist passages.
    The misogyny alone is proof enough that none of these books have any believable influence by a just, all powerful entity.

    And they are not the only holy books. There are many other, some much older belief systems. You don’t believe those Gods exist. But there is no more proof for God or Allah’s existence as there is for these other Gods.
    So is there a ”God” at all? Nobody has ever put forward any kind of proof. And bizarre stories like people of 950 years breeding like cats is making it even less believable.

    And as I said, any religion which claims that men are superior to women has already failed. And proven itself a fail and made up by men.

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