Saudi Arabia/America – How Each Culture Reaches Out to Evangelize

 

The two videos give comparisons on ways that Muslims in Saudi reach out to those who have lost their way from the path of Islam and how Americans go out to reach individuals who have lost their way from Christianity.

I think there are similarities between the two videos.

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59 Responses

  1. @Lucretia – if you wish to discuss proselytizing, then comment on this post:

    http://americanbedu.com/2008/03/21/its-okay-to-proselytize-islam/

  2. I wish to say that during my time in Saudi and even now I have found many Saudis very tolerant of faiths other than Islam. Not all Saudis believe that only Islam should be practiced in the Kingdom.

  3. Frankly it is not safe for a Saudi to come out and openly express curiosity about a faith other than Islam and especially so in Saudi Arabia. But I have not been exposed to any Saudi doing what sounded like a ‘quick change artist’ routine.

  4. @Lucretia,

    “while other religions do not have a mandate in their holy books to kill the infidels.”

    Have you read the old testament (specifically Deuteronomy 13-17). The bible clearly calls for the killing of both none believers and apostates. All Abrahamic religions have aggressive dogma. The difference is Christians do not follow their book as literally as of late. Muslims just happen to be crazier at this time due to literal use of their books.

  5. I would agree that the videos are similar at least at the base level. The Islamic preacher is preaching to an audience that is all (at least nominally) Muslim. The Christian video is speaking to people who are at least nominally Christian. The preacher Muslim video seems to be more judgemental about people’s actions than the Christian preachers but otherwise the basics are similar.

    Islam is a very different religion from much of modern day Christianity. Islam is a religion about practice, Christianity at least in the modern evangelical form is about belief. Islam is about externals (much like Orthodox Judaism). Evangelical Christian isn’t a religion with many external practices (such as funny clothes, headgear, defined prayer times etc.).

    One virtue of Christianity is that it does have distinct sects. There are some Christian sects that condemn music, but unless you are a member of that sect you can ignore that rule. With Islam there is only one Islam (well perhaps 2 or 3 if you separate Shiites and some others from Sunnis). So, there is no way for more moderate Muslims to separate themselves from conservative Arabs and ignore their message. So, modern day Muslims living in cities find themselves listening in their mosques to a message of Islam that comes from a backward rural culture. That backward message is funded by oil wealth.

  6. Jay, there’s also Sufis, Sufis are nice. And make music.

    First video was rather funny, having this bloke go on about how bad music is while all the time there is this sentimental soundtrack going on…
    The second was very boring.
    Anyway, it would be ok for religious people to be religious if they just would mind their own business (and allow their children their own choice), but that’s what they can never do, they always have to go and pester other people. And force everybody else to abide by their rules.

    Keep your toys to yourself, play with them at home and leave me in peace! Don’t force me to play with your toys!

  7. I don’t recall Jesus telling his followers to kill apostates or those who don’t follow him. In fact there is a story in John’s gospel about many disciples leaving Jesus because they said his teachings were too hard. Jesus asked his closest followers if they also wanted to leave. Someone please correct me if I forgot where Jesus told us to hunt down and kill those who stop following Christ.

    Christians are supposed to be followers of Christ. We are not Jews following Torah and the rules Israelites lived under including killing those who leave the faith (Judaism?).

    It is unfortunate and criminal really that so-called Christians have murder in their histories when I see NO teaching from Jesus to do such a thing. Loving your enemies does not mean killing them…you’d think it would be obvious, but somehow this teaching is too hard so people gloss over it,I reckon. And Islam says it’s not a true teaching of Jesus and a corruption because “loving your enemies” isn’t part of their holy texts although they may be urged to be kind even if people are mean to them so they can get good deed points. Really, Islam does appeal to those natural desires of vengeance, doesn’t it? This must be why my Muslim friends believe it’s more realistic than turning the other cheek. Shoot, most Christians live more like Muslims in that regard!

  8. The old testament is fully valid though. I think it is somewhere in Luke that Jesus makes clear he has not come to change anything of the old laws. that’s why they kept the old testament in when they were editing the bible. Some of them did want to leave the old testament out of it but the majority were in favor of keeping it.

  9. I like the Arab proverb – the enemy of my enemy is my friend

  10. Eh, it’s OK, I guess. Doesn’t really shout “godly attitude” to me though. I’d rather make my enemy my friend and get rid of my enemy that way.

  11. @bedu

    “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”

    The US has gotten into a lot of difficulty because of the idea that we should make friends of our enemies enemy.

  12. If i ever start a muslims dawah argument with F about killing and general bad behavior and the koran ( usually when he’s half asleep, tired after a long day and ignoring me) i get the “one eyebrow raised look” , ‘If i were one of the rule followers , i wouldn’t have had anything to do with you ,let alone married you and don’t bite the hands that feed you – if it was not foer me ,you would have starved long ago with your cooking skill. Go annoy someone else on the computer’ speech and he turns over and goes to sleep….

    ( by someone else he means your blog carol 🙂 )

  13. Radhaa, *it was not foer me ,you would have starved long ago with your cooking skill
    Snort!!!!!
    So if I come to visit, who’s going to do the cooking?

    Lucretia, the old testament is totally part of Christianity. Of course it is full of very nasty stuff, bad luck, these old religions were made up by men who are far beneath us in the development of human morals and they prove it to be so on every page.

  14. @Aafke-Art

    The idea that the old testament is valid for Christianity is just absurd. It is a constant in Muslim critiques of Christianity but that doesn’t make it valid. Historically there is no evidence that early Christian communities, except the small number of Jewish followers of Jesus, ever followed Jewish law. Many conservative Christians today seem to pull a lot of nonsense out of the old testament but they still eat pork and still mix textiles in their clothing so they aren’t being serious.

    Islam arose from the preaching of Mohammed and those preachings (at least a subset of them) became the Koran. Christianity arose before the scriptures. Their is a saying in Christianity “don’t make an idol of the text”. Islam is the Koran in a way the Christianity is not. I understand the desire to have a perfect religion but Christianity is simply not perfect and its scriptures are after the fact (hence not really the whole story).

  15. Lucretia, the god of the ancient Jews of the old testament was a tribal god. Read the Old Testament, he was one of many gods, only those other gods belong to other tribes. That’s why there is stuff in there like ”Our god is better than their god!”, Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian, when he talks to people he talks to Jews.
    Judaism is still linked to the tribe. that’s why Jews don proselytize. The expansion to include people from other tribes, and so expand ”Christianity” was invented after Jesus. I think the Zoroastrians were before them by including others, and thereby ”converting” them, but the normal religious practice of the time was that every tribe had their own god.

    Islam of course has plagiarized large parts of the bible and Christianity, and as the aim was conquest naturally islam puts a great deal of effort into converting or forcing people to join the faith.
    And as Christianity it also puts the death penalty on apostasy the goal is power and conquest, not helping people to reach a higher spiritual level or something..

  16. “The Old Testament is not Christianity!”

    That is they convenient way to run from an argument. If the OT is outside of Christianity then things like the following are outside of Christianity since they come from the OT:

    – The 10 commencements
    – The story of Adam and eve (Genesis), i.e. no original sin, an important concept in Christianity
    – Abraham and the original blood sacrifice
    – etc.

    My point Lucretia is that Christians are becoming less religious so they are distancing themselves from the OT (cheery picking). Do not get me wrong that is a good thing in my book as the less religious people get the better. However, all Abrahamic religions have nasty dogma.

    I am male….

  17. So Jerry you think Christians have nothing to do with the old testament? Then why do they claim gods authority in Deuteronomy when the denounce gays?

    Mathew 5:17-20
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    So the Muslims have a point when they point to the old testament as being nasty.
    Although not really because if you read their books they are quite as disgusting as the bible.
    For a morally advanced reader.

  18. @Aafke-Art

    I didn’t say that Christians have nothing to do with the old Testament, just that is it problematic extrapolate from OT laws. As far as why Christians use the OT to condemn gays, I don’t know, it certainly isn’t good theology but bigotry doesn’t need clear reason.

  19. @Lucretia

    That article on interfaith something you quoted in Arab News is from 2008. Hardly recent. Them cats were just kittens.

  20. Jerry, they use Deuteronomy because it is literally written there, and as being an abomination and deserving being stoned to death.
    As well as working on a sunday and eating shellfish. Despite creating shellfish they are apparently also an abomination in the eyes of god.

    But I am all for abolishing the OT. It is after all an incredibly nasty and immoral book. Go for it!

    And that would greatly improve a lot of things. No more 10 commandments, no more creationism, and most cheering of all: no more original sin!
    I think it’s an excellent idea!
    And while you Christians are at it, I think all writings of Paul should be deleted as well. They have no place in the bible and are rather nasty too. Especially for women. That guy really didn’t like women.

    And then we could do a last and definitive editing of the Quran as well. Just turn around the rule of obrigation; instead of the later verses obrigating the earlier ones, we will have the earlier verses obrigating the later ones. Actually all later verses, all the ones from after he moved to Medina, after the battle of Bader, should be excluded. Any hadith which are in opposition to the improved Quran should be scrapped too.

    Waw, that would clean up the world! To major religions sanitized, peace and happiness all around, and a lot less trees will have to be cut down to print those much, much smaller books.

  21. Evangelism is an odd concept to me; at least the way that many people take and perform it. In most religions, only the “experts” are supposed to perform this duty (so that they don’t mislead people into converting). However, it seems to me that now a days, it is anyone willing to work for free and go bug people. They are not experts, which leads to mixed results.

    Jerry M. I have to disagree. There are very distinct sects in Islam. And there are many Muslims who purposefully choose which sect to belong to based on what is tolerated in that sect. Maybe from the outside observer it doesn’t seem that different, but I can assure you that from the outside, all Christians “look the same” as well.

    Lucretia. You seem to have a pretty image of Christians, which means you probably live in a place where the Christians live a comfortable, educated life. If you were to live say in Africa you might have a very different idea towards Christians. Last time I checked, Christians in some African nations have active militias that hunt witches, gays, apostates, and even Christians who aren’t “christian” enough. Oh, and not to overlook the Arians, or the Nazis who have a very extreme (convoluted) idiology with Christianity at its base. I don’t think we need to mention what they have and continue to accomplish. Oh, but these are the minority, right? I agree.
    I also want to point that there are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. I can assure you that if ALL Muslims were the hate filled, vengeful, violent killers that you seem to think make up the majority of the faith, we would all be seeing a VERY different world right now. So, I think it is safe to say that apostate and infidel killers are a very small minority of any faith. Wouldn’t you agree?

    Suzanne430- I agree, Jesus did not say to kill anyone. Which is why his message to humanity is so important. And even Muslims are supposed to head his message and live by the advice that he brought to the world. Funny how convenient it is to pick and choose which prophets to listen to and which ones not to listen to? I guess that is a trans-religion common ground? Muslims forget about the other 200 and some messengers and prophets they should listen to, just like the Christians seem to only turn to Jesus. Yet, both prophets said to listen to all of the messages, right?

    American Bedu- I have to agree, the majority of Muslims I have encountered are tolerant of other religions and beliefs. I think that Lucretia fails to understand the meaning of “tolerance”. This word means to permit something that one does not agree with. It doesn’t mean “like something that one disagrees with.” Which means, I can tolerate a different faith, but if you ask my opinion I will be honest and tell you that I disagree with it and that I myself will not participate in it. In fact, I would probably tell you exactly why I don’t believe in it. That doesn’t mean that I am not tolerant. Right?

    Others arguing about the Old Testament not being Christian- Are you all agnostic or atheist? Because, you all sound ignorant about the faith. Christians OWN the Old Testament as much as the Gospel. In fact, the whole “proof” of the religion is grounded in the OT and most Sundays you will hear a reading from both the OT and the NT in the same sermon. So, maybe you need to brush up on your “Christian” knowledge a bit, eh?

    And, lastly, MoQ (for some reason, I can’t over look responding to you). I agree, the Abrahamic faiths DO have nasty dogma, I also think they have beautiful dogma (well, dogma may not be the best term). And, in a way, that reflects the world around us very well, doesn’t it? SO what came first, religion or human nature? Can religion really be blamed for what appears to be pretty instinctual human nature? Or is human nature to be held responsible for the black and white of religion? *ponder me this*

  22. @Stephi,

    – Actually the atheists and agnostics are the ones that are pointing out that OT is owned by Christians. It seems that we know about the religion more than the people claiming to be Christians 🙂

    – Regarding religion being a reflection of Humanity. Of course it is, since they are man made. However, man is also capable of creating better systems now than the ones we crated 2000 years ago. What is holding us back is traditions and the hold of the clergy. Note that in any place that religion holds supreme you have corrupt abusive systems. In places where the rule is based on secularism, you have democratic and more prosperous nations.

  23. The whole NT/OT argument intrigued me: Quick search is what I found that explains it…the first is a link for the whole site and the quote come from one of the sections.

    http://www.gci.org/law/otl10

    When Jesus said, “I have not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets,” he did not mean that each specific law would stay exactly the same. He meant that the purpose and message of the Law and the Prophets remain exactly the same. The Law and the Prophets pointed to him and were intended from the beginning to be fulfilled by him.

  24. A few more interesting quotes:

    “Old covenant laws (such as the laws of sacrifice) have been set aside precisely because Jesus has fulfilled them. He did not come for the purpose of destroying those laws, but for fulfilling their meaning. However, by fulfilling their meaning, he made it unnecessary for Christians to keep those laws. They are unnecessary because they have served their purpose by pointing to Jesus. He is the reality to which they could only point. Now that he has come, they are no longer legally binding.”

    Who is the final authority for Christians? Matt. 7:21-29; 10:32-33, 39; 19:29; 28:18-20; John 3:25-26; 6:29; 14:21-23; 17:2-3.

    Comment: Jesus, as the Son of God, has more authority than Moses had (Heb. 3:1-6). Jesus is the standard by which Moses is judged. Jesus could quote the law of Moses when it supported his point, and he could also criticize the law of Moses as not being strict enough. In some cases the law of Moses requires too much, and in other cases it does not require enough.

    Jesus said: Moses said one thing, but I say another (Matt. 5:21-45). Jesus presented himself as the greater authority, the perfect authority, the basis on which people will be judged. Our lives should conform to the standard Jesus set, not the imperfect standard Moses wrote.

    In Christianity, some of the laws of Moses are still valid, and others are not (for an example of each, the law about murder and the law about tassels). How do we know which is valid and which is obsolete? The New Testament is the authority by which the old covenant is to be understood.

    Although the Old Testament is inspired Scripture and part of the Word of God, its purpose was to point to the coming and work of Jesus Christ. Therefore, when it comes to understanding what is required for Christian behavior, the Old Testament must be interpreted in light of what the New Testament says — and the New Testament says that the old covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).

  25. @Aafke – come visit and see . I’m ok with indian dishes and smoothies. my daughter is the pastry and exoctic entree/appetizer chef and F makes sure we don’t die of starvation by helping us whip up quick and healthy after work meals.
    What will i do after my daughter leaves for college? i hate the thought of not able to see her trying to focus on homework while she takes peeks to see if i’m burning dinner 🙂

    Do come visit, we’ll make sure you and Q are fed well 🙂

  26. “Yes, “cherry” picking a very “cheery” enterprise. Muslims love doing it even more than Christians.”

    So when did I say Muslims do not cherry pick. My point is that you said other religions (ex Christianity) do not call for killing of none believers.I gave evidence, so you go in circular logic about OT and this and that. When you could have just simply accepted that you presented wrong facts, corrected your arguments and moved on.

    Note I am not a Muslim and I am a critic of Islam.

    You know Lucretia, you write long long comments and you are always going in circles. Seems there is no logic to what you say except just rants or prejudice attacks at Muslims or Suadis (you do not seem to know how to separate people from bad ideology). On top of all that, you have very little knowledge of the topics you tackle here. Yet you lecture the readers of the blog constantly.

    “No surprise that you are male.”
    so now are we going to move into sexist remarks on top of the other prejudices you showed already?

  27. I just think it is worth noting that the Old Testement and the Torah are appparently not the same- though obviously share some charactaristics- and I’m not just talking additional books. The Old Testement is very much a part of Christian beliefs though they believe much has been abrogated or newly understood by the New Testement.

    Generally I don’t like anyone proselytizing. Personally the most offensive I’ve faced have been Christian. But I think it’s all obnoxious. Lead a life in the manner you believe is correct. People will ask if interested.

  28. @Lucretia,
    Please refrain from using an instructional tone with me. You have given no reason to believe you are a credible source of information on anything. You only make yourself appear more foolish, arrogant and deluded.

  29. LOL There is absolutely no reason to think you know more than me- and your “helpfulness” is condescending- and I think that is pretty clear. If I need help I’ll ask. You remind me of some of the religious scholars we have here…they “know” lots of stuff and quote lots of sources and still don’t seem to know what anything really means. They also like to be “helpful”.

  30. I’ll try to fix my spelling, if it makes you feel better. And sorry- you are once again jumping to conclusions. Perhaps you need to take a course in basic logic? So you can learn how to properly draw conclusions?

  31. @Lucretia,

    You are changing teh goal post

    Your original argument was

    ““while other religions do not have a mandate in their holy books to kill the infidels.”

    I gave evidence from the OT to answer the statement above precisely. OT is a BOOK of Christianity. Now you are changing your question to this

    “Show us precisely where, in any of the teachings of Jesus, he stated that all non-believers must be killed as did Muhammad?”

    Followed by another set of statements about other religions I did not make.

    And then you wonder why we accuse you of strawman arguments. I never said Jesus taught anything *your strawman). I do not think Jesus existed to begin with.

    The point Lucretia is you write so many long arguments to short answers that we give you. You build these strawman arguments and go ahead and attack them.

    You are just a weird person with no logical arguments.

    Learn how to think in bullets may be that can help you focus.I am not going to read your long comments that go no where.

  32. @Sandy…

    “Lead a life in the manner you believe is correct. People will ask if interested.”

    The best statement on his post. Wouldn’t that be nice. There is a saying In Christianity that they will know you are Christian by your behavior (meaning following in the good deeds and kindness of Jesus) I may have mangled that a bit but actions do speak louder than words.

  33. “In Christianity, some of the laws of Moses are still valid, and others are not (for an example of each, the law about murder and the law about tassels). How do we know which is valid and which is obsolete? The New Testament is the authority by which the old covenant is to be understood.
    Although the Old Testament is inspired Scripture and part of the Word of God, its purpose was to point to the coming and work of Jesus Christ. Therefore, when it comes to understanding what is required for Christian behavior, the Old Testament must be interpreted in light of what the New Testament says — and the New Testament says that the old covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13).”

    Whether one believes in JC or not Christians do and this is what they say about the OT. So EVEN IF it was/is part of the “Christian bible” the NT is the authority and the book to follow for Christians. “the old covenant is obsolete” or as we like to say about Islam…abrogated. Christians should not use it or not in it’s entirety but rather the NT as the official guidebook. That was the purpose of JC coming to earth. Of course if you don’t believe in him then none of it matters but to those who do and try to follow his example, these points are important as they say “stop using the nasty bits…we have a new law now.” OK I paraphrased…

  34. Awhile back Bigstick pointed out about death for apostates but that came from a Catholic resource (I can’t find it at the moment) so I am not sure if it is from the Catholic Bible (which differs from the NT in that it has retained more books from the OT) or from the NT.

  35. @Oby,

    “Whether one believes in JC or not Christians do and this is what they say about the OT. So EVEN IF it was/is part of the “Christian bible” the NT is the authority and the book to follow for Christians.”

    I think that applies depending on which group of Christians. Catholics as an example do not rely on the bible all together. They rely on the interpretations made by the Church.

    For protestants with all their different denominations, you have various degrees of using the OT. Some view the OT as fully valid and should be followed literally. This is why you see some evangelist still argue about the 10 commandments place as the guiding principals. Groups who are anti gay also use the OT. Etc.

    So it is actually an unfair position to continually argue that Islamic intolerant Dogma is valid and Christian intolerant Dogma (OT) is invalid, since most Christians do not follow. The same argument can be made about the great majority of Muslims who do not go on Jihad. They also dismissed part of their Dogma.

    As you know I am not a defender of Islam. I just think we have to be fair when we make these arguments. Both religions have dogma which are incredibly violent. We are lucky that the majority of believers are able to dismiss the dogma and remain peaceful citizens of the world. I am all for making people less religious so we can reduce the number of violent radicals.

  36. Grant us freedom FROM religion as well as of religion.

  37. Oby, with JC you mean ”Our Lord, John Cleese”?

  38. MoQ…

    Actually I am glad you said the thing about Catholics vs. Protestants…I wrote my thing and then got involved in something and thought about it while away and was coming back to make that point…so, yes I fully agree about that. I was thinking that for the most part Catholics are not huge Bible readers vs. Protestants. They do follow interpretations of the church and the spirit of the bible and certainly take readings from the bible for learning, but in large part are not literalists about the Bible. Although that is definitely changing (the reading the bible part, not the literalist part) In my teens (about 30 years ago) I was very active in an ongoing Bible study that focused on the NT only. We used the “good News for Modern Man” bible. Now all these years later I am rusty as I have not studied in a long time.

    I do agree with most of your post and I heartily agree and have argued that all faiths should leave the nasty bits aside and embrace the good that can be found in the texts. But in my view the evangelicals are the flip side of the coin to the problematic things we see in Islam.

    The difference may be that the intolerant dogma we see in Christianity came before Christ from the OT and Christ was saying “we need to toss this out”. Whether evangelicals follow that is the question. IF JC came to get rid of the bad dogma and people still follow it that is a flaw in their interpretations. With Islam the good and bad dogma is under the same prophet in the same book and the good stuff came BEFORE the bad stuff, right? I have heard many people say that the hadith put a particularly nasty spin on the Quran and they came later. So I am thinking chronologically speaking there may be a difference.

    Also the other difference that I see between the two is that Muslims say the quran is forever and unchangeable whereas Christians I think are aware that the bible has changed and gone through some discoveries historically/archaeologically. So intellectually speaking, they understand the spirit of the message and adhere to that more than the letter of the law. (Ie: there are not so many rules about EVERY aspect of ones life. How you toilet, sleep, eat, enter a house, choose to pray are fairly flexible unlike Islam which has a strict set of guidelines.) Again, the evangelicals are the flip side of the same record.

    In the end, if people just treated others as they themselves would want to be treated we all would be better off.

  39. @Oby

    We agree on a lot with one difference. When Christians, say in Uganda, start executing gays (already happening), base such actions on the bible (OT) then the dogma does not look any different than what Muslims dogma says. Yes we can say more advanced Christians have abandoned these things, but my argument is the danger of dogma is its potential to justify the acts of radical violent groups. It happens in all Abrahamic religions and we should understand this fine point to guard against this specific issue (even with Christianity)

  40. I agree completely with Moq’s comment. Exactely my opinion.

  41. It’s probably high time to let loose the buddhists to go forth and preach 🙂 peace, meditation and calm all around.

  42. Tibetan buddhists.
    And buddists are misogynist too.
    High time to have the atheists come together and form a block, everybody would be better off.

  43. Sorry- there’s plenty of atheists who are none too tolerant as well. Not sure I’d be better off! They are human after all!

  44. Is a true point.
    However, they cannot back themselves up with an all powerful invisible god/goddess/ gods, or some divinely inspired holy book giving the the allowance to do nasty things.
    Which is a definite improvement.

  45. Depends on what kind of other weapons they have! But I do value democracy and separation of church and state.

  46. @Lucretia,

    “You and that another poster appear to have the typical middle eastern mindset of no idea what actual facts, logic or proof is but you claim to have an “in” that others do not have. lol”

    Wow, little prejudice aren’t we?

    Some of us spotted your extreme prejudice a long time ago. However, now that you started to lose your temper you are not even able to hide it behind the long rants.

    Regarding name calling, you are the one who did that.

    Regarding me not knowing what Christianity is, I think you are just going Nuts. All I said is the Old Testament is a book of Christianity. For you to get so upset about a 100% valid argument is strange, weird and really really stupid.

    You need to find a psychiatrist. Get well soon…

  47. @Lucretia

    “You behave just like a Muslim..” WTF??? I’m no lover of Muslim dogma but this is discriminatory to billions of people, as if they all behave in a completely identical manner. WTF?? You just lost any credibility in my eyes, just like anyone else who would paint a group of people with the same brush based on nothing else but group affiliation.

    Secondly, with all your chest-thumping about facts, figures and evidence, I’ve seen an example of your thought process with the bedroom argument on the other post, and it struck me as intellectually and logically impotent. I just didn’t have time to ridicule you properly for that, and now I do.

    First, you said “women are stupid enough to sleep with men before marriage are stupid”, which is circular reasoning of someone who doesn’t know enough words to express themselves.

    Secondly, I told you in response that you need to “try before you buy”, and you unblinkingly agreed. Changing opinions much?

    Finally, you made me laugh when you said Arab News ran an article on interfaith “just a few days ago.” That article was from 2008. Facts and figures, my arse.

  48. @Lucretia,
    I am pretty sure I must be “the other poster” based on the way we’ve been at it on the boards and I am literally laughing aloud. I have a “typical middle eastern mindset?” What exactly would that be? First time anyone has ever said THAT to me, for sure.

    And yes, Christianity is more than just the New Testament- just like the Old Testament (whichever Christian version you care to point to) is more than the Torah. Can’t imagine why different denominations need different versions if it’s irrelevant to Christianity.

    And while it’s true your posts supply “data” it’s clear you don’t have a clue how to evaluate it in a relevant manner to the discussion, or draw any kinds of logical conclusions.

  49. My guess is that Lucretia’s “peers” are Daniel Pipes, Pamela Gellar, and Robert Spencer. 😉

  50. @Sandy, NN, Kristine,

    If you red above you will notice that many of us disagreed with Oby regarding the OT and vise versa. However, that discussion went well like it should when a few adults debate. She comes across as polite and has an objective to educate not to just win an argument.

    With Lucretia every discussion becomes a fight, because her objective is to win at all costs. This does not stop at using fallacies, but also long soap box type or rants, prejudices and name calling.

    The sad part is she does not see it, even though many of us pointed it out to her a few times.

  51. Lucretia- (trying to avoid the odd decay of reasonable conduct) You said: “…Still, we do not see Christians in this day and age committing the sort of atrocities that Muslims are in the name of their religion. You are confusing the Christians in Africa with violent Muslims of whom there are many more.”

    I disagree. I am not confusing the acts of one person with another. You mentioned that you like to see support for claims. (but first, I would like to clarify that I am not saying some Muslims do bad things): you are free to google any of the following and find that “Christians in this day and age” are in deed committing the sort of atrocities in the name of their religion as some Muslims do for theirs.

    Christians burning witches in Kenya
    Anti-homosexual bill in Uganda
    Violence in Nigeria (which appears to be a fairly pitted fight between Muslims AND Christians with equal results)
    And just for fun, try Christian Terrorism (often results in Christian vs. Christian agendas)

    I, again, am not saying that you wouldn’t be able to propogate a much longer list for your fav target (Islam) but you had said that I was confusing Christians with Muslims, and I assure you I was not. I was very sure about what I was saying (no confusion).

    So, I think it is reasonable to say that it is PEOPLE that are bad no matter what religion they belong to or not. I think we could generate an even longer list of crimes against humanity for people who claim NO religious connection.

    oh, and honestly, using acronyms for foul language is just as equal to using foul language. Makes a person appear desperate.

  52. Maybe Lucretia is the ‘new normal’?
    When we have man-made organized religions we have trouble. Period. Some are more violent than others but they can all be trouble. Some do damage on a wider scale but they all do some kind of damage.

  53. I have always had faith in God, believe there is a God but do not agree 100 per cent with the practices of any one religion. However I think it is worthwhile reading the 3 Abrahamic books and having a baseline knowledge at least of other religious practices too. But I still think the bottom line for individuals is what has already been said… ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ The way we lead our lives, act and speak says volumes about each individual.

  54. And how we write on blogs! 🙂

  55. @Aafke – yep!

  56. That’s funny. When I read Lucretia and Jerry M’s posts all I read was “Hur hur hur derpa derp derp”. Islam does not command the killing of apostates. It commands the killing of apostates (or anyone) if they try to kill you. There is no kill the infidel in Islam. However, the Old and New Testaments might be able to help you with that. After all, if Jesus, peace be upon him, is the kind of Messiah Christians claim him to be, then he must fulfill the violent Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament, right? As for those of you who claim that Islam is violent, I dare you to bring me proof. Go. Go bring me proof. Go to the hate sites if you have to. Go copy and paste off of Geehad Watch and AtlasDrugs. I’ll be waiting. 😀

  57. Salaam Alykum.

    Good blog, by the way. I hope to learn more about KSA as well. I feel I myself may have some misconceptions about it 😛

  58. @Lucretia: By the way, I’m curious. What do you have to say about the State of Israel banning proselytizing? 😉

  59. @Jerry M:

    Sorry about my first comment. I accidentally confused susanne430’s comment with yours. Anyway, there are many different interpretations of Islam. Don’t just think of it as Sunni and Shia. Individual Muslims have their own interpretations. There are gay and straight Muslims, creationist Muslims and Muslims who accept the theory of evolution, etc. There were various Islamic philosophies in the past. The 4 Sunni Madhabi, the Shia sects, the Ibadhi, etc.

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