Saudi Arabia: Are Saudi Wives Fearful Their Husband Will Take a Second Wife?

Under certain provisions, Islam allows a Muslim man to have up to four wives at one time.  Sadly, the provisions that should exist are usually ignored and many men will take multiple wives simply because they want to.

One does not have to be in the Kingdom very long to become aware of Saudis who have more than one wife.  The Saudi male, in many cases, is not reticent about the fact that he has more than one wife.  He may have photos on his desk of groups of children and will comment which children were from which wife.  This particular experience happened to me when I commented on the photos.

Other times there may be social functions and a husband may inform his wife that a guest is bringing a different wife.  He preps her so she will not be surprised when greeting the female guests.

So are Saudi women fearful that their husband may take another wife?  This question will get mixed responses.  A high percentage of Saudi women will respond that it is his right under Islam.  Yet if you are able to probe more deeply most will respond that they would not want their husband to take another wife.

While it is not a constant fear, the fear does exist.  Too many Saudi women have witnessed the pain of another Saudi woman whose husband chose to take another wife in a marriage that was thought to be secure.

There are no specific guidelines that can indicate if a man would take another wife.  However, if there are others in the man’s extended family who have taken more than one wife, then that could be a warning sign.  At least it indicates that multiple wives are not unheard of within that family.

The minority of Saudi women who are in polygamous marriages may be on good terms with their husband’s wives.  However most choose not to have contact with each other.  Yet if there are circumstances where they must both be present, such as a wedding or a death, they will be polite to one another for appearances sake.

There is less fear among the rising generation of Saudi women of a husband taking a second wife.  The rising inflation and cost of living make it more challenging for a man to think of having more than one wife.  Additionally, never underestimate the will of the Saudi woman and her family.

 

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126 Responses

  1. “So are Saudi women fearful that their husband may take another wife? This question will get mixed responses. A high percentage of Saudi women will respond that it is his right under Islam. Yet if you are able to probe more deeply most will respond that they would not want their husband to take another wife.”

    In Canada there was a highly publicized court case in British Columbia, where a guy of a Christian cult (Mormon related) took several wives in the community of Bountiful…yea no kiddin’. You can find the case and news on Internet.

    All the arguments that polygamous marriages are generally ok and those in them, are generally fine: I disagee. Certainly in Chinese cultural history prior to Mao Tse-Tung, before polygamous marriages were outlawed, there’s enough evidence of unhappy /unhealthy relationships in such families –for centuries! It created a plenty of legacies, stories, not worth reading/repeating because of marital unhappiness, etc.

    I personally know of 2 Chinese-Canadian women my age, whose grandfather each had 2 wives simultaneously. They had zero interest in talking about their “other”/2nd grandmother.

    This is one area, perhaps in the 21st century, Saudi women and Saudis in general would let this practice die out by imposing a legal time limit to end polygamous marriages in the future. ie. not allow any new ones to be consummated.

    I’m sorry women, are not saints. The need for focused love in a monogamous marriage to make 1 marriage work these days between 2 people, is enough work, never mind multiple wives.

  2. I know of two instances of it in America, never mind our laws, because Muslims ignore American Law on this. Both knew of the other wife but neither was pleased. Sometimes you just have to put up with it. I too hope that it will die out.

  3. Glad to know muslims don’t abide by laws. I am amazed at how many don’t and yet demand respect for Saudi when they can’t even respect the country they live in. I have been told this more than once by a Muslim who has never lived in any other country but US but oh let us respect Saudi.

  4. The guy might as well be selling snake oil. He looks and talks like he is an expert on the fine art of saying nothing, thinking even less.and doing the exact opposite of what he says. He reminds me of the angry young man holding the “kill the infidels that Insult islam” sign a few years back – either him or his twin brother. If Muslim women are to depend on him or his type for happiness, they are in big trouble.

    There are no real provisions except “want to”. The idea of not having favorites or treat all justly / equally /etc… is not possible. If Mohammad had a favorite and did not treat all wives equally, why should a Muslim think he can meet any provision?

    PS: Who would want more than one wife? yeah right, all I need is another “honey do” list!

  5. @Jay – LOL at your ‘honey do’ comment!

  6. Okay. I am torn between wanting to knock his block off and laughing at the absurdity of this video. If people actually believe the horse crap coming out of this Nitwit’s mouth they could have been sold a ocean beach front property in Oklahoma. For those of you who don’t know about the state it is a land locked state. It is scientifically documented that boys are tyically born at a rate of 1:05 to 1:00. In other words there are approximately 5 more boys born every one hundred birth of women. Let me really spell that out. There are more boys than girls born in just about evey country on earth. The reason why you have some countries with higher female populations is due to older women who have out lived the older men. A lot of times they outlive men by 8 to 10 years. In certain parts of the world men are really outnumbering women. This is especially true for women up until 55 to 60 years of age. It is estimated that there are 33 to 35 million more men in the world than women at this time. I have posted one such website that will give many an insight into just how close or out number the man/female ratio is. Believe me when I tell you that there is a lot on this subject and it is scientifically verified. Boy almost always outnumber the girls in births.

    Note: The reason why some countries have extremely high numbers of boys is generally due to femocide.

    http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/sexratio.htm

    Gee, I wonder why Allah got that wrong? Could it have been for a manmade self-serving reason? Hmm. Probably.

    If women cannot see through this they truly are lost. This is a man who wants to screw the world of women and has found a system where he can do such. Then lies to women that they are honored and protected. Horse crap.

  7. I could see polygamy being okay if all 3+ members loved the other 2+ members (meaning at least two of them are bisexual). Otherwise, why? One man is more than enough for me, but I wouldn’t want to share him! (Women have certain needs and desires, too! 😉 )

  8. Praise the Lord. I am 47 years old and never married. I am making a good life for myself without a husband or children. Most probably I will never marry. And that will mean lifelong celibacy. And I’m OK with that. Because my religion teaches that you have one spouse only, and if you don’t have a spouse, you remain celibate. And I take my religion seriously. I take my God seriously. And there are millions like me on the planet – both male and female. I don’t think the problem is that it’s unrealistic. The problem is people being brainwashed that it’s unrealistic. That women can’t live without a man’s protection, provision and guidance. That men ‘have to have their needs met’. The problem is people thinking that their desires are the be-all and end-all to life. That they have a right to have their every little desire fulfilled, that they can’t know happiness unless they have everything they want, NOW. Again, ask the millions of people who have never married and are – even if they might ideally want to have a spouse – living celibate and well without one, who understand that this is God’s will if one is unmarried. It is realistic. It’s even good.

  9. “are Saudi women fearful that their husband may take another wife?”
    HUGE YES.
    I think its a fear for all muslim women not just saudis have. who wants their hubby sleeping with another woman..? yes it is his right but its not his right when he abuses it and/or doesn’t marry for the reasons prescribed. the punishment for men who do not treat their wives equally is brutal …i don’t think men think of that too much and it should be spoken about more. Equality is a must.. buy a flower pot for one u have to for the other..and it can become impossible at times to do so..some men don’t even consider this before taking on another wife..they think cos its ‘their rite’ they can do as they please..Iv heard of some Saudi men..forcing other brothers to do as they have (take multiple wives)..even some men who were not into the idea were persuaded and then took another wife..how can this be okay? you are playing with someone else’s life/family/happiness/childrens psychology..and your taking it as simple as persuading someone who you don’t know personally and could really not be living up to the extremely HIGH expectations needed for a man to marry again. Anyway i think a man that is persuaded so easily for such a life changing decision lacks a lot of things.
    Anyway i went off track..all i know is women are fearful. lol

  10. It’s so sad that women are fearful when they should find unconditional love and security in a marriage relationship. This is one of the many reasons I hate polygyny.

  11. Most Muslims who have multiple wives in the US aren’t actually breaking American law. I’ve known a few who were stupid enough to try to marry all wives legally, but most will have only one legal marriage, or none at all, and marry the others in a religious ceremony with no legal standing. The relationships aren’t legal marriages, and there’s no law against having multiple girlfriends simultaneously. It’s not something I’d tolerate for myself, but if someone else chooses to (in a Western society where they’re not being forced), it’s none of my business. Those who want to outlaw the practice concede that it’s difficult to do so without infringing on consenting adults’ right to do what they want with whom they want in their own bedrooms.

    The real question, in my opinion, isn’t “Should men be allowed to practice polygamy, and under what circumstances?” – it’s “Why do women who are made miserable by polygamy feel that they have to stay in the marriage?” The answer is that the laws and culture of Arab countries unfairly (and incorrectly, according to Islam) penalize women rather than men for failed marriages. As long as that continues to be the case, focusing on things like polygamy is treating the symptom rather than the disease.

  12. Why Caraboska generalise her own case . There are always abnormal cases and exceptions , by and large it is natural that a male needs a female spouse and a female do need a male spouse , that has been designed by nature , all other things are abnormal and unnatural .Too many partners in either cases also have its own perils,and male or female celibacy is not natural in any sense ,
    it may be alright in animals and beasts but not in humane society to have multiple partners.The ideal is one partner for all the time . Islam is a natural religion ,it has therefore sanctioned only one , in exceptional cases more than one is allowed but upto maximum 4 but it does not mean it is desirable or is an act of piety it is very hard to follow all rules so it is as good as prohibited ,. It is another thing that one takes the allowed permission but don’t follow the rules . It is just as some one is an athiest and no rules to follow .

  13. @Sunniside up
    In the states- you can have multiple girlfriends- but that is not Islamically allowed. All the legal wife has to do, should something happen to the spouse- is get a good lawyer and they are out. Legally the girlfriends have a very different status than the wife. And as I understand it- even a man’s will can’t necessarily change the legal wife’s rights.

    The reason in the Arab world they stay is usually two main reasons. One they have no where else to go- their family won’t take them back and they can’t legally live on their own- or second they lose custody of their children,

    @Zaheer,
    Nature is full of exceptions, that is normal, not abnormal- and people are a part of nature. So if Islam is the natural religion it doesn’t penalize the exceptions either. The planet is groaning with people. People who don’t want children should not be pressured into having them.

  14. “the reality is that there are more women on earth than men…”

    More than anything, it’s the lack of basic arithmetical skills – like being able to count – that is shocking.
    ,

  15. Polygamy is nothing new in history, it is still practiced in the states by some Mormans and other groups. Islamically it is more of a exception than a rule. Unfortunately, when the oil boom in 1972 happened the household income skyrocketed in KSA. This allowed the finacning to be available to have multiple wives with huge families in multiple houses possible. This spurred the population boom that per capita makes western inclides look small. Today, more than half of the Saudis are under 20 yrs old. This makes it harder for getting jobs, owning a house, etc.

    Circumstances can sometimes make multiple wives feasable. If say one wife is career orientated and doesn’t want children, but would need a husband for reasons. The husband wants children and isn’t so thrilled about career, polygamy is an option. “Neeah” or intentions for any marriage has to be looked at close.
    I remember my first years in KSA a Naji friend was so happy to tell me his wife has two teachers that work with her that are tribal, both 29 yrs old, and will marry me at the same time. He thought this was the deal of a lifetime. He was shocked why I didn’t take the offer and he couldn’t understand my analogy why. Anyway this is off the path, polygamy isn’t the best way for most, but it does have its place.

    @bigstick
    True there are more boys born than girls in the world. However 60/40 ratio of boys to girls death by SIDS (Suddeen Infant Death Syndrome)and other diseases has to the population split to 50/50 at the age of 1 year old.

  16. You know that is an overall deaths in SID is about 1 in every 1000 born a year. In the US that is about 4000 (60/40% split) who die. That isn’t going to drive down those male:female ratios. Particular since there are on average 5 more boys born per every 100 allotment of girls that is 105 to every 100 girls. In many countries that ratio split remain more male than female. The statistic show it reduces to 1 to 1 after a certain age and that age is typical after child bearing age of the women for many countries. In many countries boys get better health care the girls. So girls dies more often until the age of 5 years of age.

  17. I’ve seen a few saudi women fearful that their spouse may take another wife and a few who are very sure they won’t 🙂 Most of the saudi women i know are not docile little women , they are far more outspoken and opinionated that many give them credit for .

    Having said that I personally have nothing against Polygamy. diff people have diff needs, what happens between a man and women or 2 women should be between them. However If the first wife is not in than she should have an option to leave. Laws Forcing her to stay ( no choice / lose kids etc.,) are what makes this a very bad deal fro woman. We cannot preach free choice for the male ( to meet his needs) and forbid it for the women .

    As for humans not being capable of celibacy — bull.

    I’ve seen polygamous marriages a plenty in the US breaking all kinds of laws ( move to saudi if you don’t respect the laws would be my solution ) , I’ve also seen a case where the man was on his deathbed and his legal first wife had her revenge.. ooh boy .. all that pent up anger directed at the other woman .. not good , he saw his 2nd family suffer and knew he had made a big mistake putting his 2nd wife at a disadvantage. I myself have stopped her from visiting him. ( rules/wishes of his legal wife) and have seen the devastation – unable to do anything. ( we humans are capable of evil deeds )

  18. I’m not sure the first wife is being so evil. If she wasn’t on board- what he’s been having is an affair- why should she accommodate the mistress? I would not.

    I really don’t care what consenting adults all agree to- as long as they are all genuinely consenting. But yes, Saudi women are afraid. And with good reason.

  19. As for unmarried Muslim women being sad … I have 2 sisters-in-law who refuse to marry, do not want to marry, like being single and will not be cajoled into marriage. This guy on the video brings haram animal to mind.

  20. What a smug selfsatisfied arrogant little prig! Male chauvinist p*g to the letter!
    I was very happy being single for a very long time. Where does this imaginary idea come from that women need men? For what? Putting out the garbage? I can do that myself.
    For companionship? I have a dog, who I bet is far more loyal than 90% of human males.
    To enjoy extra cleaning and housework? I have a horse, a cat and a dog, all hairy, and sometimes sick, trust me the joys of cleaning and clearing up mess and always available to me.

    As far as multiple partnerships go I think nobody has the right to tell anybody else what they should do. Of course only if all participants are consenting adults and not indoctrinated by religion or culture.

    And of course if the men has a couple of wives those wives should be allowed to marry a couple of extra men, that is only fair!

    Azad, maybe you wife just wants to be free.
    Anyway, having a baby is no solution to a marriage on the brink. Moreover, you will be part of putting a human being into the world who might be hurt and suffer because of the mess the couple was in.
    You can only put children into the world if you are in a stable happy relationship, when both parents (forget about anybody outside) really want that baby, and when you are sure your finances will allow that child a proper upbringing and best chances for the future.

  21. Anyway, as the percentage of women to men is 50/50, that means if men are allowed four wives there will be a lot of men left without women.
    Makes you wonder the Muslims are so much against gays. At least male gays. Homosexuality would be right up their street one would think, for every gay couple there are two more lonely ”spinsters” longing to be a second or third wife!

    Vice versa I do understand dislike of lesbianism, for every lesbienne couple there are two less desperate spinsters to serve the sex drive of the Muslim men.

  22. Zaheer, atheists have many rules to follow, only they don’t think there is an invisible skydaddy who puts up any rules, some religious rules are very immoral after all.
    As Atheists are free of the superstition that every rule put forth by the invisible friend (fill in deity of your choice) has to be followed, they have nothing to force them to follow anything they consider immoral. (There are many invisible friends worshiped all over the world and they all have immoral commands and evil things written in their ”holy” books)

    If you take a global look at the world you will see that the larger the percentage of atheists in a country, and the more secular the country, the more prosperous, the more happy, and the less crime in that country.
    And the more religious and dogmatic a country, the more poverty, suffering and crimes against humanity.

    I hope this makes clear to you that, whatever your religious ideas, the reality is that religion does not make people prosperous or more safe. Quite the contrary. Maybe you should think about that and learn from the atheists.

  23. Well as always, the topic of polygamy here (or anywhere) gets people riled. Most of us dream of having a life partner who loves, supports and desires us and who will be faithful unto us.I don’t think there was more than spouse in that picture. The circumstances set up for polygamy in Islam were in a different time, but today they have twisted this criteria to basically get what they want. I listened to his speech and it was nothing new to what I have heard argued before. It always seems like their supporting arguments defending polygamy are all spun rhetoric. With that in mind, as it is not illegal here and if the other wife does not mind (and I know some who don’t want to sleep with him anymore and just want him to keep paying), then what happens with consenting adults is their business. Others affected are the children.I haven’t met many children here who like or approve of their father having another wife, they feel sad for their mom’s. Adult children sort of brush off the discusssion and smaller children seem confused and a bit sad. So instead of thinking a new wife will fix ”what ails you” work out what is wrong in your present situation. ( My sister in law is 37 and divorced, she has been approached twice to be a 2nd wife. Both men were not sincerely looking for a woman to love. She was willing to consent to be a 2nd wife, so she wouldn’t have to continue to live with her family and havea house of her own. Both sides of that are just depressing all the way around. As you probably know, divorced women here are not a hot commodity, even if she was only married long enough for him to deflower her 😦 )

  24. It seems when Saudi men think about two wives- they think in terms of “two women to have sex with”,and “two women to have babies for me” but they do not think in terms of “two women to have an adult relationship with”. And the process usually ruins the relationship with the first wife, they later discover the second wife is not as nice as they first thought (after all- she didn’t mind ruining his relationships with his family and building her happiness on another women’s unhappiness). They also then find they have very strained relationships with their kids who don’t like what they’ve done to their mother and don’t like their new stepmother who isn’t a very nice person.

    Then there are the men who don’t tell the second wife about the first wife. Usually that happens when the man is living apart (for work or education) from his first and trusting wife. Once he returns home with her, however, everyone finds out and both wives are mad/heartbroken. If the second wife is lucky she doesn’t have kids yet and can make a break if she wants. Poor first wife is stuck with the lout.

  25. I found the video a bit silly. Given that there are more males than females (http://www.indexmundi.com/saudi_arabia/sex_ratio.html) polygamy exacerbates the social problem that already exist in the country. One wonders about a deity who doesn’t plan for his people?

  26. “Their are not enough men in this world, so men have to merry more then one wife” lol

  27. @sandy –
    I understand where you come from, But the fella wanted no.2 around and her kids should have got access to see the dad, except ofcourse he was not communicating nad his legal wife has the pwers at that point and she said FAMILY ONLY .

    He did come in with both of them in tow along with his multiple kids , that’s why i knew the case and he has come in for appts with either 1 or 2.

    I think no.1 has a right to be pissed but she also had the choice ot leave, no.2 told me she didn’t know he was married till she moved and was informed of no.1 . yet she continued …

    i don’t know complicated in many ways and sad for no.2 and kids, but No.1 got her revenge , i heard from 2 who came in later for some other thing that she got Zilch and is struggling to support herself and kids .
    one man makes a bad choice and ruins a whole generation !!!
    Still i’d say if all 3 are ok then i have no issues with polygamy, personally ofcourse i’d finish my husband off if he tried it. ( islam or not)

  28. @ Radhaa,
    How could number 2 not know she wasn’t legally married? And if she knew she wasn’t legally married- then she made a very foolish choice. And if she had any class she’d have left when she found out she was the other woman. I feel sorry for the kids. Two very marginal parents.

    As for wife one- she had the choice to leave- and she had the choice to stay. Many women don’t divorce when their husband cheats on them for a variety of reasons. Hard for me to say why in this case. But because she didn’t divorce him because of his long term affair doesn’t mean she needs to recognize the second wife in any way. It would have been nice to have let the kids in however. It’s not their fault.

  29. Saudi american
    No wonder Saudi can’t follow manmade Islam your reading comprehensive skills suck.

  30. Isnt it better to get married thought it be a second wife or third rther than becoming a public property?

    Women in west sleep with many men and illegally why dont peopel coment on that ?

  31. @Ana Hind: You made a generalized and unsubstantiated comment about Western women that is not true. Besides, the post is not about Western women.

  32. Afke-art
    Well athiests have to fear only the govt. rules , otherwise they have no moral ground . This whole thing is a long discussion , you have the liberty to mock God as you wish , what I said was from the point of view of believers.

  33. As a believer I am fully aware that just because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean they don’t have values or ethics. There is absolutely no reason to think that. This seems to be a common mythology that many believers in different faiths have. I truly don’t understand it.

  34. @ ana.hindi

    I hate the way some muslims say that women will become public property if they don’t get married. Its a disgusting statement to make. And its not true. I’ve read it many times in discussions about polygamy Im not sure where it comes from, I wonder if its a quote from the Quran. Woman who decide not to marry do not automatically become sluts. Many are happy to be celibate or live in sin with one man.

    Women are not anyones property. They have the choice to sleep with whomever they choose. This is not illegal in the West as you stupidly claim. I personally would admire a independent woman who slept with hundreds of men of her choice, on her terms, than a second or third wife who can’t get a man for herself and settles for one that is already taken. She is not only hurting the first wife and her children, she is stating that she herself is second best and only deserves half a husband or a third of a husband. That’s quite pathetic in my mind.

  35. @ana.hindi — Isn’t it better to remain unmarried, celibate, enjoying the company of your parents ( if need be) rather than become 2nd,3rd,4th wife… 🙂

  36. @sandy –

    yes screwed up parents messed up the kids lives. I asked No.2 I was told islamic marriage was what they choose. but she didn’t think she would get the short end of the stick .

    She was pregnant when she moved to this state and found No.1 that too after some women at the mosque clued her in !!! she had no clue where he went 3 days i assume. i didn’t probe ,why throw salt on her wounds . but she seemed genuinely innocent . No.1 told me she suspected something was up , she is more wordly and works and is quite capable of supporting herself, he was diagnosed with a long-term issue and she kind of hinted she didn’t want to leave him. again i don’t know the specifics but i felt she was planing this a while 🙂

  37. As far as women ‘needing’ a man, I’m calling BS on that one. It may be true as a practical matter in a society like Saudi Arabia where laws make it impossible for a woman to live independently and support herself, but if that’s not the situation, what’s the point of being in a loveless marriage? Hint: very few women enjoy physical relations with a man they don’t love.

    Many Muslims in the US choose not to marry legally, because American law is very, very different from Islamic law – and not in a way that’s necessarily favorable to women! She can get alimony, true, but if she makes more than he does, she can also end up having to pay him support. In a community property state, she can end up losing property she owns (like a house) to cover debts he incurred without her consent or even her knowledge. What I see all too often is that the man does something egregiously awful, the woman files for divorce, and then the man drags out legal divorce proceedings for years, just for spite. (It’s not only Muslims who do that!) Things like that are why plenty of monogamous American Muslim couples choose to forego legal marriage when they have no intention of practicing polygamy.

    And of course it’s haram to have multiple girlfriends, but if he’s religiously married to them, it isn’t. It isn’t a great plan, in my opinion, but if everyone involved knows the deal and agrees, it’s their own business. In most states, it isn’t illegal. That’s how it should be done, if someone is determined to do it. In a country like the US, no woman is forced to stay in a marriage due to family pressure or financial needs – if she chooses to stay in one despite her husband being a jerk, it’s her own business.

  38. @ ana hindi:

    Men and women are not public property in the west. They belong to themselves and are adult enough to make their decisions.

  39. Zaheer:

    I tend to think atheist and non-religious have far more morality than many of those who follow books that authorize killing, slavery, murder, prostitution, racism, the list goes on. Religions are one of the world’s most divisive and hateful instruments. Many people use it as such as well to justify their selfish and dictatorial needs to the expense often of weaker individuals either in strength or societial positions.

  40. bigstick, I think ana hindi was referring to prostitution…

  41. I just did see the video attachment. At first he talks about obeying the Qur’an, but then later weazles his way into an unholy rationalisation that men should in fact have up to 4 wives. I think the fires of hell will burn brightly for him.

  42. @sunni side up – “Things like that are why plenty of monogamous American Muslim couples choose to forego legal marriage when they have no intention of practicing polygamy”

    I hope to go they have a will/ POA etc., if they are not married legally, I for one would not permit non-family to dictate terms of care.. irrespective of what their religion tells me . If the law says they are not married and they are not related then no can do.. i need to see a paper ( however worthless it may be ) value my licence a lot 🙂

  43. @Radhaa – The smart ones do, of course. 😀

  44. And lets not forget that besides the four wives, a Muslim man can have sex with all the female slaves he can own.
    Talk about being a slut!
    While the religion allows all this bonking around, (for men), from the atheist moral point of view such a man is just a slutty fornicating louse.

  45. Atheists on the whole are no more moral or immoral than the rest of humanity. There is no unified”atheist’ position on anything g really. Individuals make/take their own positions. Some good, some bad. In fact I often think these Muslim men who treat women so badly can’t really believe in God or judgement. They’d be to scared to do what they do if they really believed they’d be.accountable. So they use certain religious interpretations to hide behind.

  46. Yes, you make an interesting point Sandy, I do not see any actual effects of religion as such in the majority of the adherents. As with all things, it comes down to the individual, and their personal believes and intentions.
    Although it would be fascinating to really know what goes on inside people’s heads, for example when men mistreat women and use religion as their back-up. But we will never really know.

    As for atheists, there is no group or anything, it is, after all, not a religion, but the absence from religion. Atheists don’t ”hate” god (fill in deity of your choice) they don’t see there is proof for one or more magical invisible beings to exist.
    However, we do see that people who are atheist are moral and kind and responsible. Proving that humanity does not need any kind of religion or dogma to behave as good people.

    And again, we see that worldwide, secular countries do a lot better than religiously ruled countries, which at least proves that religions should not be allowed to be part of politics or decision making.

  47. Secular countries are infinitely better than countries with theocratic governments. It should be pointed out that any blind adherence to an ideology is threatening, even if it’s a lack of belief in a deity. Atheism can be used to promote evil, just like religion often is used for sordid agendas. We can not forget the soviet regime and the brutal discrimination of Christians under that regime, Even after Stalin, who was an atheist (people often mistake Hitler for an atheist when they’re denouncing it), allowed churches to be reopened during World War II, Christians were routinely discriminated against, and their was a special group to promote the ideals of atheism. Which parallels itself with how much religious organizations promote there message, only it’s called proselytizing.
    Any form of thinking can be manipulated by to fulfill anyone’s agenda, be it good or bad.

  48. There is no problem. Women are aware of the fact that if they are disobedient to the husband he can have another woman.
    Men are supposed to be just with all women he marries. Otherwise he should marry one only (It is written in the Book). Muslim men can marry 4 women wherever they are in the whole world. That is the beauty of the their religion.

  49. @Sami

    Actually, your book says to marry two, three or four “if you cannot deal justly with orphans.” Not “if your wife is disobedient to you, marry another, two, three or four.” You have just provided a beautiful illustration of how Muslims really use the polygamy clause.

    Also, if you happen to live in a country that criminalizes polygamy, feel free to marry four, but in the eyes of the law, all but one will be just random chicks getting it on with you.

  50. Stalin was a dogmatic Marxism-Communist. Whose teaching included:

    The idea that individual property ownership is inherently evil.
    The belief that collectivization is the key to efficient production.
    The complete hatred of people who were opposed to the ideas of communism .

    Anyone can create a doctrine which people must adhere. The question is whether the people are strong enough to call out the wrong or atrocities in the system and stand against it. That is an entirely different matter.

    Atheism is the lack of belief in a god.

  51. Stalin had also studied for the priesthood, He saw Christianity as a rival dogma. It’s dogma which is a threat.

    I agree with NN, the quran says marry if you cannot deal justly with the orphans.
    So apparently the men of the generation of the prophet did not have enough decency and charity to look after orphans unless they got paid with sex for it.

  52. @bigstic, NN and Aafke-Art
    I think you have not read Quran properly. It is a general Rule and commandment that a muslim can marry upto four women if he treat them justly. He can not have and keep more than four at a time. Orphans was the customary at that time.
    Moreover I may draw your attention to Quran again, it is written that it is not possible for men to justfy among them so it is strongly advised by Allah(swt) to marry one woman. And a wife has to be obedient to husband (vice a versa).
    @Bigstick, It looks that bigstick does not believe in one God ( small g) and whats the point for bigstick to comment.
    In case you need the reference from Quran, come back. Thank you.

  53. Aafke … too funny!

    Sami, no matter what it says in the Quran, people’s imaginations or wherever … it is not possible to treat 4 different women equally. It is impossible to treat 4 different people equally.. We are all different and we all react differently to situations and have different needs and desires. Anyway we know that ‘equal’ means being equal in men’s eyes and that it is not important what the woman/women think.

  54. You are correct Wendy. That is why A;llah has strongly recommended to marry one.You are right it is impossible to treat equally so far the passion is concerned, love is concerned, love making is concerned, passionate kissing is concerned etc etc etc etc.
    Still we can not change the LAW and Permission of Allah (swt). Allah has eased the tention of some men on this planet.
    It is just like the Permission of Allah to muslim Men and women to marry Ahle Kitab (jews and christians) but that permission is subject to some conditions. We can not Change the Supreme LAW.

  55. Sami,
    You don’t even seem to understand what the Quran was talking about. Multiple wives are not allowed to ease the tension of men. It is to make sure that women are protected. Now in modern society there are better ways to protect women’s interest. This is precisely how it’s gone so wrong. It’s not supposed to be for the man- but for the woman and the Quran clearly states the circumstance.

    I know many men who have married more than one wife. None of them married war widows with children who had no other means to survive. They married women to please themselves and they completely made miserable their first wives and families.

    It never ceases to amaze me how Muslim men can make everything about their own pleasure.

  56. Let me say a few words in defense of Stalin and Mao and communists………

    Thanks to them we know that atheists and atheism are at least as bad as religionism, and usually worse.

    Imagine the damage they could have done to Western morality, culture and psychic — and to all religions everywhere — if they had respected human rights and democratic institutions?

  57. Sami, isn’t it kind of suspect that the “four wives no more” rule didn’t apply to a certain person? Why is it that a man declared to be an example to Muslims had an exception put into Allah’s eternal word for himself? Isn’t that rather suspicious? Isn’t it strange that so many of his wives are described as beautiful and the one that later got fat almost ended up in the street (she opted to assume a housekeeper role and donate her night to another). Not to mention the fact that Mohammad did not treat his wives equally according to the hadith.

  58. @Sami

    I don’t believe in any religion. Who knows what god(s) is or are. In fact no one know if god(s) exists. Religion is nothing more than a manmade doctrine of rules created to benefit a select population based upon gender(typical male), demographics, ethnicity, etc. Nothing more. These doctrine ensure a winner or loser no matter what based upon the outline of their fantasy scripts.

    If you like you can always go to God checker to see the current god of the day.

    @Jay

    Could you explain more on your earlier comment regarding atheist. Either on the debate page or just hit my name and put it up on my blog under discussion.

  59. Big…. Looked at your blog – nice but really really intellectual. Are you sure you want a knuckle-dragger to comment there? Are you talking about the Mao and Stalin comment?

  60. Jay:

    Yes I was referring to Mao and Stalin comment. I would like to get more information. Besides I find a lot of what you say thought provoking. I doubt that my blog is really really intellectual. Just ramblings, points that irk me, and then just stuff. I have no problems with knuckle-draggers. I am friends with a lot of knuckle draggers.

  61. Hi Sandy. Do you think, if men do not treat the women equally and men are not changing their behaviour, we can change Quran according to the wishes of women?

  62. Sami, the world has evolved. We have electricity, cars … the list is endless. What applied many years ago doesn’t apply now. Islam needs to move forward also as other religions have. If you want to live to the absolute words Mohamed reportedly said then I would suggest you give up all the modern conveniences you have and enjoy and go back to life the way it was at that time.

  63. @Sami
    You are the one changing Quram. There are conditions for polygamy that have nothing to do with mens’ rights but the protection of women. Men are generally not following the Quran when they take second wives anymore, they just ruin their families to satisfy their own desires.

  64. @Sandy,

    “It never ceases to amaze me how Muslim men can make everything about their own pleasure.”

    Not sure why you’re amazed when they are just following the example of the prophet and his early followers. Isn’t that just perfect Islamic Sunnah?

  65. @MoQ, you, like many of my co-religionists give way too much credit to some of the sources of Sunnah.

  66. @Sandy,

    Like the verse in the quran that allows men to have 4 wives and as many slaves as they can afford does not give us a clue of where that was going.

    Additionally if it was not for Hadith and Sunnah you would not know how to pray (among many other things you accept as religiously accurate) would you? Some day I think you need to explain how do you pick which Hadiths to follow and which ones you ignore.

  67. Dear o Dear, you look angry. O K what you want to know more, About what? You are very intellegent person and thats why you dont believe in one God.

  68. @bigstick
    Mao and Stalin were your friends or relatives? What did you lernt from them?

  69. @Sami

    Again, reading comprehension problems.

  70. Are you Ethiest and what type?

  71. You are wrongly informed,Jay. Your knowledge is shallow and absurd. You need deep study.

  72. Hi Wendy . Why dont you try 4 wives and try your luck. Then understand how to treat equally.
    Dont talk, try, practice.

  73. @sami:

    So you are advocating lesbian marriage. That will solve women’s problems with islamic men. Good thinking.

  74. @MoQ,
    I am pretty much highly suspicious of all of the hadith, unless they clearly support the Quran- and even more suspicious of those who are interpreting them. And I am very interested in knowing which hadith teaches the prayer- if you have a reference for it. I hear that alot- that without hadith we wouldn’t know how to pray. But it is my understanding that prayer is something we’ve learned from the previous generation that has been in constant use through the centuries.

    And I do think that there is a lot that was culture specific and that we are not to so literally follow things. For example I have seen American Muslims in America, sit down on the floor and eat because it is “sunnah”. Well, I think the real Sunnah is to have proper table manners- and respect the meal Allah has provided- so I try to chew with my mouth closed and keep elbows off the table. And truthfully I think it’s fine if others want to understand it the way that they do- as long as they don’t insist on holding others to their standard.

  75. @Sandy.

    So the Quran allowing men to have as many slaves as they want is not a sign that it is for man’s pleasure? Seems you are avoiding that 🙂

    “Well, I think the real Sunnah is to have proper table manners- and respect the meal Allah has provided- so I try to chew with my mouth closed and keep elbows off the table.”

    So how do you know all of is? doesn’t sunnah have it’s origin in hadiths delivered to you to describe the saying and actions of the prophet. If not how do you think all this came about.

    Regarding prayers, there are actually tens of Hadiths that describe how the prophet prayed. For example look for Bukkhari Volume 1, Book 12:771.

    Sandy there in more sunnah in what you believe is Islam than you imagine. All Sunnah is based on hadiths by definition as they are the sayings and actions of the prophet.

    Regarding hadiths contradicting quran, none of the hadiths relating to the prophet womanizing and marrying many women contradict quran. They are actually supported by the Quran. As an example the verses sent especially to allow the prophet to marry Zainab (the wife of his adopted son)

    Again, what is your method of identifying which hadith is accurate and which one is not.

  76. @MaQ

    Well said.

  77. @sami – I don’t think you and Moq are on to the same thinig 🙂

  78. @radha:

    Sami has reading comprehenision problems. 🙂

  79. It is very interesting. The question is how to pray and looking for ref. The answer is in same statement. We have learnt from generations. I Say “Prophet Mohammad said “Do as I do” “Pray as you see me praying”
    Moreover some people talk about “How to eat, on the table ,on the floor , sitting in the chair, with knife and fork or with fingers. All these are the part of culture and not strictly Hadith.
    Allah has given you brain to think, think and think. Avoid arguments for nothing.

  80. No, not at all. Lesbians, gay interrational annals etc etc these are dirty mind productions.
    Try to be pure and marry as advised and commanded.No problem.
    If men not changing and women want more and more independence to exhibit their beuty to men other than husbands, then how to cope with such people on this planet.

  81. Ponder into Hadith and Quran. Read yourself and ask learned.No problem,if you are serious and sincere.
    If you read Mao and Stalin you are not getting anywhere. Lost and lost for ever.
    Even in Christianity and Judaism, read yourself and ask learned. Use your own brain and you will get answer.

  82. @MoQ

    I know virtually all Sunnah is based on Hadith. I was just using that as an example of different ways of interpreting the same thing. I have no problem believing a hadith that says the Prophet had good table manners. If it is inaccurate- no big deal.

    I don’t have a problem with Muhammed marrying more than 4 wives. He was in many ways an example for various types of marriage. First a monogamous marriage- second plural marriage. And older wife, a younger wife etc. An exception to the rule is an exception-not a license for others to do the same. I don’t have a problem with him marrying Zaineb.

    Slavery is something commonplace for the time. I don’t agree with it, but it was a fact of life then. And no- if Allah had just put in the Quran to abolish it outright people wouldn’t have listened- unless Allah also chose to change the nature of man. Man and societies develop- when they are ready. Why he created us that way I really can’t say.

    Hadiths are subject to propaganda and the manipulation of people with agendas. Obviously if I believe someone is a prophet of a just God, I will not believe horrid hadiths. Nor am I in any way compelled to- especially since there is NOT compelling reason to think they are accurate records of what happened. Like as not they are accurate records of slurs as well as truths.

    I can’t “prove” anything regarding faith to you. Faith is not logical. Not everything that is real is tangible. You understand it one way, I understand it another. I have no problem with you understanding it the way you do- but you seem to take issue with my understanding Islam differently that what you think Islam “really” is. I’m used to that. All the conservative nut-jobs agree with your idea of “true” Islam. You are all welcome to it- I like mine better.

  83. Isn’t it just like All saints in christianity. Follow them and do what and how they did. Christians of today are doing the same as the saints did? You will find the truth if you are sincere and serious.

    Pleasure is every where. All love pleasure but it should be within limits and according to Law.
    Actually people want uncodified pleasure.

  84. @sami,

    I think you are not reading Stalin and Mao in their original languages. There are many evil things put into the translations. I think you should learn Russian and Chinese before you make a judgement so quickly…

  85. @sandy. Every body loves to satisfy one desire, menor women. What type of desire?
    Do you know that Quran has prescribed the punishment as well if they go beyond limits and against LAW. If they are not punished, we can not blame the Quran.

  86. @ Sami

    You contradict yourself. First you tell Wendy to marry 4 wives, now you say it is dirty minded productions. I have heard schizophrenia is common with people who try to be literalist as there are so many contradictions in these books and trying to figure out where to go is difficult. Hey, you hang in there. I am sure you will figure it out sooner or later. Probably later. Until then, takes some classes that allow you to develop your comprehension skills. :0

  87. “Hadiths are subject to propaganda and the manipulation of people with agendas. Obviously if I believe someone is a prophet of a just God, I will not believe horrid hadiths. ”

    So your basic process of authenticating hadith is: anything you think is good then it must be something the prophet did, anything that is bad then it must be the prophet did not do it. Like I have always told you here, I think you have your own religion based on the goodness of your own personality. However, it is not Islam. Although I prefer if others follow your lead and create their own religions 🙂

  88. Wendy. You have wrongly understood. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) never said “give up the modren facilities” who told you that. we were talking about the prayer etc. Your brain is tired , must have rest.

  89. @MoQ
    You’ve almost got it! 🙂 But I think I was a bit unclear on one thing. I don’t actually authenticate hadiths by this criteria. Yes, the ugly are out- they disqualify themselves- the good “may” be true. I don’t necessarily think they are authentic- I just give them a chance as long as they aren’t hurting anybody.

    @Sami,
    Of course everyone loves to satisfy their desires- that’s why so many Muslim men have haram plural marraiges rather than following the rules.

  90. I have known Muslims who drifted away from Islam and in their mind became Marxist. My interpretation is that they did not believe in the teachings of Islam; did not believe in a God; but still wanted a type of state structure of which they were already accustomed to from within their home country. (this is not specific to Muslims in Saudi Arabia)

  91. Your knowledge is week. You have known Non-Muslims and not Muslims. Sorry.

  92. NO you are mistaken. Muslim men can have four wives but no Girl friends which is HARAM.

    Prostitution is covered by the word Girl friend.

  93. Thank you. Do you know Stalin was Impotent and MAO was womaniser.

  94. @Sami

    Doesn’t it say that women are given their marriage money for the use of their private part?

    Did you know that Muhammad was a womanizer, murder, child molester, slavery owner, rapist, torturer, warlord who was easily overtaken by satan and black magic.

  95. Sami, your brain is tired. What I was implying that Muslims today must advance their understanding of the Quran to present day thinking and try and visualize Mohamed in today’s world and believe that he might say things differently. Ways and ideas and laws change and are interpreted differently over time. If Muslims can’t understand and do that as so many of the world’s people have been able to do then maybe their lives and way of life should completely go back to the times of Mohamed and the Quran.

    “Hi Wendy . Why dont you try 4 wives and try your luck. Then understand how to treat equally.
    Dont talk, try, practice.”
    I don’t know if I’m up to the task of having 4 wives. My one husband keeps me busy enough but then again it might be fun! Sorry, I guess you don’t know I’m a woman. Well, I can tell you that if I had 4 husbands I’d undoubtedly be treating them differently. One would be a better cook, one would clean the house better, one would be a better provider and the one that was the better lover …. well he just might be the most special of all.

  96. A more scientific view…..

    http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-monogamy-major-social-problems-polygamist.html

    Quote: …. the study that is published today in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. “Our findings suggest that that institutionalized monogamous marriage provides greater net benefits for society at large by reducing social problems that are inherent in polygynous societies.”

    Considered the most comprehensive study of polygamy and the institution of marriage, the study finds significantly higher levels rape, kidnapping, murder, assault, robbery and fraud in polygynous cultures. According to Henrich and his research team, which included Profs. Robert Boyd (UCLA) and Peter Richerson (UC Davis), these crimes are caused primarily by pools of unmarried men, which result when other men take multiple wives. End of quote

    Actually I find the study somewhat lacking. One related aspect that rarely gets attention in the same breathe as polygamy is female infanticide.

    Whatever their sins, and there must be some somewhere, we can’t accuse Muslims of killing baby girls to favor boys. Why am I always defending Muslims?

  97. Thanks, Jay.

    Sometimes a question does not have a ready answer. (smile)

  98. Actually, polyandry makes as much sense as polygyny. Just think – cut your “Honey do” list by 50%.

    Then you could write a piece about…
    Saudi Arabia: Are Saudi Husbands Fearful Their Wives Will Take a Second Husband? (or is that called divorce?)

  99. Well said. What a thinking and what a desire.

  100. One way to solve the problem….

    The fourth victim, the family patriarch’s first wife in a polygamous marriage, allegedly endured years of abuse and feared for her life in the weeks before she died. from…

    http://www.capebretonpost.com/News/Canada%20-%20World/2012-01-30/article-2880005/Shafia-murder-trial-casts-shadow-over-Canadas-Islamic-community/1

    The blame for this horrible crime lies with the fShafia amily but the response from the Muslim community shows that it has not understanding of the problem… It is mass denial. Some examples from the article:

    Quote: The Family Honour Project, launched by the Muslim Resource Centre for Social Support and Integration is an initiative specifically targeting the sort of violence that allegedly took place in the Shafia home.

    allegedly?????? They are not sure?

    Quote: Islamic religious leaders banded together last December to denounce honour killings from the country’s mosques and educate Muslims about the call for gender equality at the heart of their faith.

    So gender equality is the heart of Islam??? Who knew!! So Mohammed really came to deliver gender equality! Wow, wait until Muslim women find out!

    Quote: Despite the fact that “honour killings” are explicitly condemned in the Qur’an

    Another verse I must have missed. It would have been nice if he had given us a surah and verse. Maybe he is right; maybe there are hundreds, thousands of “be nice” verses in the Quran – the only problem is that nobody has ever seen them except these Imams that refer to them constantly. Most have been on those pages the goat ate.

    Quote: such values sometimes take root in remote regions of Muslim countries where education is limited and scriptural doctrine is misinterpreted.

    Somebody forgot to tell the Imam that Shafia was rich and educated and had lived in Canada since the 1990s. Oh yes, the Quran is always misinterpreted. It seems that Muslims just can’t figure out the ‘real’ Islam. But that’s of because non-Muslims can’t either.

    And of course, the article ends with the Imam saying it is those horrible infidel haters that use things like this to create a negative image of Islam. It is just “one misguided family (that) single-handedly” caused this. Obviously there are no other bad things done by Muslims anywhere or anytime that may have influenced public opinion about Islam and Muslims. How dare non-Muslims base their opinion of Muslims on what Muslims do.

    And in closing, Mr Shafia’s own words: we have no tension in our hearts, [thinking that] our daughter is in the arms of this or that boy, in the arms of this or that man. God curse their generation. Curse of God on both of them, on their kind. God’s curse on them for generations…May the devil [defecate] on their graves. Is that what a daughter should be? Would [a daughter] be such a whore?”

  101. I have read your comments. Thank you for wasting your time. Not a single refrence has been qouted from The Qur’an. Neither from Bible or from Tora.
    What type of sermon is that. Please try again and qoute refrences from Qur’an about “HONOUR KILLING” etc.
    I want to learn,please help me.

  102. The problem, Sami, is that Muslims say things not because they are true, but because they sound good. They want Islam to be what they say it is, not what the Quran and hadith teach or even what Muslims do.

    I could write a book about things that are supposed to be in the Quran according to Muslims. Just last week a commenter here said that the Quran tells Muslims to treat Christians with respect. I would guess he/she is referring to 60:8 (“God does not forbid you respecting those…”) but in fact that verse is damning to Islam because being it says that being just to or respecting others (non-Muslims) is purely optional in Islam.

    In all the hundreds of articles about the Shafia murders, containing dozens of statements from Muslims, there is not one word in which Muslims recognize the hate and misogynistic nature of their religion. It is all a misunderstanding, either by Muslims or non-Muslims, and so nothing changes, nothing gets better.

    Now that thing about “gender equality” being the “heart of their faith” (Islam) is really really out on the edge of absurdity. Oh yes, when we read the Quran, there are six verses on every page proclaiming equality between sexes — that is why Muslims women get to have 4 husbands and why women are allowed to whack their husbands if they (the men) don’t perform as required.

  103. The term honor killing is not mention in the Quran, however the practice is mentioned. See below.

    Quran (18:65-81) – This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with “special knowledge” who does things which don’t seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would “grieve” his parents by “disobedience and ingratitude.” He was killed so that Allah could provide them a ‘better’ son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

    Then there is this and I will post somemore in a moment.

    Hazrat Ali (rightly guided Caliph) reported the Prophet saying:
    “Women have ten (‘awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten.” ( Kanz-el-‘Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy’a).

  104. More stuff you can kill on:

    Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

    Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

    Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

    Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

    Now some sahih hadiths:

    Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
    Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.” The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, “Are you insane?” He replied, “No.” The Prophet then said (to his companions), “Go and stone him to death.” The man was a married one. Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla (‘Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
    (See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)

    Sahi Bukhari: 8:6814:
    Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”

    Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
    “A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
    Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, “Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession.”

    Al-Bukhari:
    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

    Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
    Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

    Al-Bayhaqi:
    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”

  105. “Quran (18:65-81) The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with “special knowledge” who does things which don’t seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would “grieve” his parents by “disobedience and ingratitude.” He was killed so that Allah could provide them a ‘better’ son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)”

    -actually this explains how the reasoning behind God’s will is mysterious and unknown to humans, because we have limited vision and knowledge. it is NOT an justification for honor killings. before and after this story were tales of sinking a ship for the benefit of its owners and rebuilding a wall for a town (that had been unkind to Musa alayhi salam and his teacher) because later it is shown that there lies treasure underneath it destined for orphans. the example of killing a child is given because it is horrific and shocking and difficult for any to imagine that any good could come from it. facts are the children and innocents are murdered and die horrific deaths all around the world every day. these are painful and difficult for anyone to deal with and we don’t understand why they occur. only Allah subhanu wa t’ala knows why they have happened and that is who we must put our trust on.

    manipulative people twist anything to what they want it to say, but limited vision prevents them from analytical thinking.

  106. @Sandy and Sami
    don’t stress yourself out arguing with them here because they have their own extremist anti Islam agenda. they will pull things that have nothing to do with what you are talking about and not answer any of your questions 😉

    if you want to say anything just do it for the people who are reading and not commenting and mostly for Allah subhanu wa t’ala.

  107. @MnM11:

    You can do mental gymanistics all the time but here is the thing. There are people who take the koran to every literal word. They are applying it, it such a way. Across the middle east honor killings are occurring and rising because of their belief in the koran and their understanding. This has nothing to do with being against you or what you believe. I stress what YOU believe. However what YOU believe is completely different from what others who practice this religion believes. Guess what Sandy is a prime example of this. She doesn’t trust the hadith and she takes the upper road on the passages in the koran for the betterment of mankind. Here is the thing their are others who feel the betterment of mankind is completely different based upon the same passages and many of the books that Sandy discounts. To me it is a book with no value other than some historical aspects. Much of is allegory story telling. Make believe.

    Here is the thing other people believe that this rule laden mass controlling man made book is divine and they treat it in a manner that it is the literal word of God. I have found that those who treat those books in such a way are typically are the worst of humanity. In just about every religion you are going to have them. They wax and wane in power over the years like an evil plague. The more fundamentalist your become the more hateful you become in many aspects. That is just the way it is.

    I will be glad to discuss more with you later. Probably on the debate page. However let me leave you with a few thoughts and an old testament section that allows for disobedient children to be killed.

    “If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.”
    (Deut. 21:18-21)

    Guess what child abuse can stem from the old and new testament depending on you apply it. Lots of passages about beating children.

    Heck in the new testament it say that if you truly believe in the bible and want to follow Jesus then castrate yourself.

    Guess what every year there are men who cut off their penis because they believe that this is the way to salvation.

    Of course how many people still mutilate boys and girls genitalia all in the name of religion today.

    Now get over it, get your head out of the sand and see what damage these books can do to cultures and humanity. So you don’t practice it this way but guess what other do and they have incorporate certain aspects into their society. The very least are that these books are enablers to abuse and kill others all in the name of make believe.

  108. @ jay NO ONE believes that these particular verses in the Quran condone killing children, unless they were already a psycho which all societies have some such individuals. find me any Islamic scholar that thinks that this is the meaning of these verses. so, its not just my opinion its the opinion of the muslims. just because you don’t like islam doesn’t mean you can take some verses of the Quran out of context and say that muslims believe this…when it flat out isn’t true.

  109. and also christians, hindus and people of shamanistic faiths also commit horrific honor killings as well. its not just muslims. address the problem properly and only then can one come up with ideas for a solution.

  110. mmm11 is correct in that honor killings are not restricted to Muslims. They happen in other religions and many cultures. Honor killings are a result of people living with a tribal stone age mentality such as the one where an Afghan mother-in-law recently had her son assist while she strangled to death his wife for producing a girl baby. These acts are not based on religion but on barbaric cultural beliefs.
    I am so proud of my Canadian jury who convicted the Shafia family of murder!!! The news article from Cape Breton was not very good reporting. They refer to Islam as a culture rather than a religion. It was slanted against Islam and was not calling the crime what it was.
    Most of you know here that I am not a supporter of Islam or any other religion but let’s be fair in this case as call it what is was … horrific murders of 4 females committed by evil Afghan/Canadians with a stone age mentality.

  111. MNM 11:

    Go to Debate Page.

  112. I read somewhere that 91% of the honor killings are done by muslims.

  113. @Honest Abe:

    Here is an article that gives the 91% figure and has some interesting and telling information on honor killings.

    http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

  114. You have to factor in what is actually reported. I can pull up many articles on the numbers of honour killings in India alone in the Sikh and Hindu communities. Statistics say that for every honour killing reported in these communities there are 10 that go unreported so it’s important to NOT point to this happening primarily in the ‘Muslim World’. In Canada Sikhs have been responsible for quite a number of them.
    http://www.chakranews.com/honour-killings-in-canada-an-undeniable-reality/2035

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-07-11/india/28318807_1_honour-killings-family-honour-reports-by-human-rights

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

  115. “These acts are not based on religion but on barbaric cultural beliefs”.

    Not according to Mohammmad Shafia who honor killed his daughters and his first wife and then raged about his daughters:

    “God’s curse on them for generations….There can be no treachery, no violation more than this. They committed treason from beginning to end. They betrayed humankind. They betrayed Islam.

  116. Yes, they will use their religion just as Christians have done. I am NOT a fan of Islam but to make claims that almost no ‘non-Muslims’ practice honour killings is not correct. Call a spade a spade for heaven sake.

  117. @Wendy
    When you talk about practice, I do not agree that is called practice, practice to me is when it is on “regular”basis.
    Honour killing is every where and among all religious people even in the social societies.
    Generally Hounar killing happens where sex is involved among religious set up. (specially where sex is not permissible out of marriage).
    Otherwise who cares. You know abortion rate?

  118. @MNM11
    I agree with you 100%.

  119. @bigstick1
    Your qoutation from Qur’an 18:65-81 is not appliable to honor killing. If a person’s honour is injured/damaged and he/she kills the culprit,that is honour killing. In the above qoutation third person is not known.

  120. @bigstick1 of31 Jan
    All these qoutations relate to sexual act/behaviour. Actually there is no mention of the other party who must have also been stoned to death.
    This Honour Killing is between the guilty person and Islam(Religion).
    This is punishment and not honor killing.

  121. @Bigstick
    What is the difference between “PUNISHMENT” and “HONOUR” killing by definition?

  122. Sami:

    Punishment can encompass honor killings, if that is what you are trying to get at. The honor of a family often times hinges on a woman’s sexual chasity. Therefore often times it is tied to her behavior whether real or imaginary.

  123. I agree with you. Actually people don’t realize the difference between Punishment and Honour Killing.
    I think Honour Killing is between two parties who care for Honour.
    Religion prescribes the punishment for the wrong doing of the wrong doer.Punishment by Religion is for every wrong doer ,man or woman.
    Quran prescribes the Punishment.
    Some people quote the Article of Syed Kamran Mirza.

  124. Please take any discussions pertaining to honor killing to the debate page as it does not belong on this thread.

  125. Well, I am muslim (american convert) and if my husband takes another wife, in my contract it states I will seek a divorce, he agreed and signed. Not all men want a second wife and hell I am not accepting that, the wife does have the right to refuse and put it in her Islamic Marriage Contract, which is signed by witnesses and the Imam who marries you. Saudi is far from the right path as far as Islam goes, they use their desires to dictate what they want, not what the Qu’ran teaches, if so, there would be no stoning, women could work and take care of themselves and seek as much education as they want. Thank God I am American, born and raised!!

  126. The level of hypocrisy and lying in the west is astounding and downright shameful. How about the business of Ashley Madison, Criagslist, Bacl page, etc., where having side action is accepted and is likeable. Just the other a college of mine who is a lesbian was lived with her girlfriend/partner went and had sex with male friend of theirs. Not that I am defending Saudi culture but the fact is that it’s in male human gene of having multiple partners.

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