Saudi Arabia: The Kingdom of Contradiction

Saudi Arabia wants to be known not only as the country which holds the two holiest mosques in Islam but also as the Kingdom of Humanity.  It wants to be known as the Kingdom of Humanity for the good deeds and good will of its country and people.

Saudi Arabia does do good deeds and particularly for its efforts of separating conjoined twins as a charitable service for families from around the world.  Many of Saudis people are known for both their good will and good deeds.

However at the same time, the Kingdom is also becoming known as a Kingdom of Contradiction.  On one hand the King himself is calling for interfaith dialogues and initiatives yet on the other hand, young Saudi national Hamza Kashgari is fighting for his life because he dared to publicly voice an imaginary conversation and questions he would pose to the Prophet Mohamad (pbuh).

How will anyone take proposed interfaith dialogues or initiatives seriously from Saudi Arabia when multitudes of Saudi citizens, among them known clerics and sheiks, are calling for the death of one of their own?

Is it unrealistic to wonder how many non-Muslims or perhaps even Muslims may be questioning whether Islam is really the religion of peace, tolerance and compassion that it purports to be with such an examplar coming from the very heart of the land of Islam?

I feel like there is a very mixed and contradictory message being sent around the world by what is happening to Hamza Kashgari.

Does the Kingdom want to become known as a Bloodthirsty Kingdom?  A country that wants to take a young man who has not even entered his prime away from a loving family just because he was either brave or foolhardy enough to share thoughts?

Enough of this foolhardiness.  Let Hamza go!!!

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126 Responses

  1. The religious conservatives (ie: the religious establishment) have demonstrated that their version of Islam is authoritarian and unforgiving. If their is a loving version of Islam out their, it doesn’t have much support.

    I have felt all along that the interfaith dialogues were all just bs to keep the outsiders from knowing that Islam in Saudi Arabia is still militant and is devoted to the sword.

  2. Sorry, I am never buying that Saudi has anything to do with being humane. They operator in the day of Inquisition and Witch trials. Heck just a few days ago a muslim newspaper stated that a (girl) who was disobedient to her father is being put into jail because she doesn’t want to live with him. She actually would rather be in jail. The GIRLis (35). It is actually written that she is a girl not a woman. Give me a break.

    Saudi is a full of murderous, backward, narrowminded individials who not only have killings and torture for every inhumane reason known but they have a systematic degradation system for women.

    In other words, Islam as it is practiced does not honor women but imprisons them, it puts to death apostates, blasphemiers and tortures people. Islam as they practice it has no honor. They are a blithe to humanity and a continual human rights violation.

    If Saudi is the example to the world of Islam then as far as I am concerned it is worth fighting because who needs this system anywhere in the world. Let alone having to live in the oppressive prison structure that is known as Saudi.

    Since over 30000 muslims immediately called for his death this certainly tells me that this type of belief system is not a small minority. That and you couple the incidents with afganistan over killing people over a manmade book. All of which represents Islam and muslims. Who needs that crap. The more this goes on; the more people will stand against muslims as they are being represented as such. I will never believe Islam represents anything Godly in fact the way it is going on I would say it represent the polar opposite.

    Saudi Arabia along with numerous other Islamic countries are nothing but humane rights violators bent on the systematic torture, degradation, murder, homophobia, slavery and gender apartheid. Islam has nothing to do with anything good and is only a rule laden perogatory.

  3. Slowly but surely, the subjugated Saudi people and the international community is discovering the true nature of the absolute autocratic and theocratic Saudi ruling dynasties.

    This discussant has been arguing, for 3 decades, that Islam has become an effective tool of oppression, discrimination, segregation, deprivation, misappropriation, subjugation, corruption, humiliation and intimidation.

    The questions that must be asked are: Why only Muslims become enraged and violent, collectively, when their faith and prophets are criticized or insulted?

    Who is more dangerous to society and humanity, the man who tweeted a dream he had with the prophet or the ruling dynasties and thousands of their followers who is demanding his head for expressing his personal opinion? What harm did he do to Saudi society? Islam is a concept, no one can harm a concept.

    Hamza case should be of a great concern to Muslims and non-Muslims, especially at a time when the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), headquartered in Saudi Arabia, is trying to force the international community to adopt and implement the anti blasphemy and apostate UN Resolution 16/18. You know, the same charges mounted against Hamza.

    But there is more. Hamza case is designed to do the following:

    Hunting down and bringing a 23-year-old innocent man back to face Saudi justice is only a small instance of the Saudi far-reaching objective.

    The repercussions of Hamza’s misfortune are dangerously multifaceted. The Saudi regime wants to reassure its already subjugated citizenry that although they may run, they will have no place to hide, especially in Muslim countries.

    The regime also wants to convince Muslims, worldwide, that the Saudi rulers are the only true defenders of Islam, especially at a time when Muslim parties are ascending to power in countries like Egypt and Tunisia. The Saudi autocracies fear that these parties will overshadow them because they are elected by and accountable to the masses whose revolutions put them in power.

    In addition, the Saudi autocracies want to remind the beneficiaries of their largess and nepotism, especially the 56 members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), headquartered in Saudi Arabia, that far-reaching financial and religious measures will be applied if Saudi demands are not readily heeded as in the example of Malaysia.

    However, the real target of Saudi religious and economic intimidation and blackmail are Western democracies, their institutionalized religious freedoms, and freedom of all forms of expression. This is what the OIC’s sponsored United Nations (UN) Resolution 16/18 is designed to accomplish. It must be rejected by “anyone who cares about freedom of expression and religion.”

    Even the apologetic Washington Post could not ignore the hypocritical and double Saudi talks. Read below:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-kings-hypocrisy/2012/02/13/gIQA71wxBR_story.html

    The Saudi king’s hypocrisy

    By Editorial Board, Published: February 13

    IT’S HARD to top the bloody hypocrisy of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, but Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah is making a run at it. On Friday, the king delivered an angry speech denouncing the United Nations Security Council’s failure to act on Syria, where Saudi Arabia is supporting an Arab League plan for a “democratic transition” that would end the Assad regime. “The world is ruled by brains, by justice, by morals and by fairness,” he piously declared.

    That same day, the Saudi ruler’s security forces were firing on protesters near the eastern town of Qatif, inflicting a fatality for the second consecutive day. Meanwhile, the regime’s diplomats were arranging for the swift deportation from Malaysia of a fugitive Saudi journalist, who fled the country after tweets he authored about the prophet Muhammad led to demands for his arrest and execution.

    According to Saudi reports, King Abdullah was among those requesting the prosecution of Hamza Kashgari, a 23-year-old columnist for a newspaper in Jeddah. Mr. Kashgari, a supporter of the cause of liberal change that triggered the Arab Spring, sent out tweets on Muhammad’s birthday addressing him as an equal and saying, “I love many things about you and hate others.” For good measure, he objected to the status of Saudi women, saying they won’t go to hell “because it’s impossible to go there twice.”

    Though he later apologized, Mr. Kashgari faces trial and a possible death sentence. His persecution has been facilitated by another champion of double-talk, the government of Malaysia, which claims to respect the rule of law but bundled Mr. Kashgari onto a private Saudi jet Sunday in spite of a court order prohibiting his deportation.
    Saudi Arabia is doing its best to bring about the end of Mr. Assad, whose Alawite sect, an offshoot of Shiite Islam, is a minority in a country with a plurality of Sunni Muslims. It argues that the Security Council must act not because of Mr. Assad’s sect but because of his brutality. Yet at home, this Sunni regime doesn’t hesitate to open fire on protesters from its own minority Shiite population — or to threaten a liberal columnist with execution.

    The Obama administration, which has loudly and repeatedly called for Mr. Assad’s departure, has had much less to say about King Abdullah’s repression. In December, it approved a $30 billion arms sale to his regime. Now it chastises Russia for supplying arms to Syria. Of course the violence in Syria is far greater than that of Saudia Arabia — more than 7,000 people have been killed, and rebels are being attacked with tanks and artillery.

    But brains, justice, morals and fairness are in short supply not only in Mr. Assad’s Damascus but in the royal palaces of Riyadh as well.

  4. Thx for informing us Ali.

  5. I don’t know that Saudi Arabia is really seen as the standard for anything great except maybe to some who live there who have their heads buried in the sand. I know absolutely no one who looks at it and says, “Wow, those are some awesome Muslims.” I’ve only ever heard them mocked for their hypocrisy.

    I should say that I’m not including all citizens of KSA since I know of several individuals who live there and are good people. I’m speaking of the leaders, the fatwa-issuers, the creeps..those types.

  6. Ali:

    Good stuff.

  7. THere isnt any thing islamic about saudi besides male and female mixing

  8. *male and female not mixing

  9. Thank you Ali. You said it best.

  10. But the top priority for the kingdom is to guarantee it’s survival, and the people led by wahbaism are calling for Hamza death (the fundamentals of religious ideology the monarchy built on), and with demanding majority the government can only do what the people want. whatever this kingdom can be, it will still be populated by bloodthirsty people.
    On that, this show will stop any liberal voice for at-least the arab-spring pass by.

  11. Thank you for a most insightful posting, Dr. Alyami!

    When it comes to his co-wahabi moolas, Emperor has no Balls ….

  12. In fact people in Saudi do not care that much how they are seen or known. The opinion of others in other country is not very important to us.

    I have to exclude one period which is after the Iraq war 2003. At that time people In Saudi start to care a little how American think of them, and the reason was that they do not want to be invaded by some Villainous, and so they has to understand the mentality of the american and please them in order to avoid their Aggression.

    As far as the royal family is concerned their priority is to prove to the american regime that their existence is in the American interest and the demise of them is not in the american interest. If they prove that, then they should not worry, every thing will be OK. And when politicians in the US evaluate their interest they will care about bigger issues, Oil, security of Israel, fighting terrorism. Hamza is not a big deal. All the best for Hamza and his family.

  13. Here’s a recent news item, separate from but sort of related to Hamza Kashegar’s plight. Creep Creep Creep Sharia Drip Drip Drip Sharia here in the US (Pennsylvania):

    A Muslim admits to attacking an atheist over “Zombie Muhammad” costume. The muslim attacker supposedly got off because he “is an immigrant and claims he did not know his actions were illegal, or that it was legal in this country to represent Muhammad in any form. To add insult to injury, he also testified that his 9 year old son was present, and the man said he felt he needed to show his young son that he was willing to fight for his Prophet.”

    This is enforcement of Sharia in a Pennsylvania court! Then, Judge Mark Martin, himself a Muslim convert, told the atheist, Ernest Perce V:

    Before you start mocking someone else’s religion you may want to find out a little bit more about it. It makes you look like a dufus and Mr. (Defendant) is correct. In many Arabic speaking countries something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society in fact it can be punishable by death and it frequently is in their society.
    Read the entire story at:

    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/muslim-admits-attacking-atheist-muslim-judge-dismisses-case

  14. One would think that after calling Islam the ”religion of peace” the ultimate mockery has already been achieved…
    Anything else coming after that can only weak. I do not understand why Muslims are always so offended.
    This is scary though, I mean zombies in themselves are scary enough, you don’t have to up it by adding to the scariness.

  15. And what’s wrong with that judge? In superior societies it is not normal to kill people for apostasy or making fun of people, especially not nasty people who have cause a lot of suffering. That is exactly why we are superior. He is a judge of such a superior society, he should have given that nasty religious moron a serious sentence!

    Oh, but he is a religious nutter himself, this proves that religious people should be kept out of positions of power, and especially the justice system, as this judge proves so clearly by his ruling how religions corrupt morality and justice.

  16. I can’t believe that judge. He is exactly why people will dislike and distrust us even more than they already do.

  17. “I do not understand why Muslims are always so offended”.

    Yeah, I’ve wondered the same for a long long time! Here’s at least one explanation amongst many:

    ” ….. It’s all about love! As strange as this may sound to a non-Muslim, the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, also referred to as the Beloved, is loved, not in the sense that love is viewed in the West, but in a much deeper way than you can imagine. In fact, every time I speak or write about the Beloved peace be upon him I get goose bumps all over my body and my heart races and my eyes fill up with tears out of yearning to see him.

    ” ….. For most non-Muslims, and Muslims who are new converts, as well as those who are not devout or not practicing at all, this is very difficult to comprehend. This is not surprising. How can I expect anyone to comprehend a love towards someone they know nothing about?

    ” …. Worse yet, whatever they heard about him was inaccurate and defamatory. And to add insult to injury, many Muslims do not reflect his teachings and the Message he peace be upon him was entrusted to bring to mankind. So I can’t place blame on those who don’t get it”.

    Read the entire article at:

    http://mohamedghilan.com/2012/02/13/why-are-muslims-so-serious-about-their-prophet/

  18. Aafke-Art

    If you want to see some politcal nuts and anti-female legislative bills that have been introduced into state legislations here in the USA, you should check my blog out.

    You will be shaking your head. Dominionism is a rising force and they are extremist christians. Hateful, vile, discrimintory people who hate personal choice and demand you be forced to adhere to their beliefs. They are known as the Christian Taliban without the killing but who knows what they will do if they ever got any real power.

    So believe me when I tell you that nutter muslims are just in the spot light today. However there are factions within Judaism and Christian that are equally capable of such acts if given any real power.

  19. Far-fetched comparison. True, every society has its nuts, but we are protected by non-sectarian Constitution, bill of rights, separation of church and state, checks and balances, independent non-religious court system and thousands of independent civil society apparatus. None of this exists in Arab and Muslim countries.

  20. The Saudi Doctrine: A Lethal Threat to Freedom of Expression

    Championed by the Saudi regime, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation’s UN Resolution 16/18 calls for any criticism of Islam to be criminalized internationally; harmless tweets are now grounds for torture and possible execution as evidenced by the arrest and deportation of Mr. Hamza Kashgari from Malaysia to Saudi Arabia to face charges of apostasy and blasphemy.

    CDHR’s Commentary: The minute a harmless expression concerning the Prophet Mohammed was tweeted by a Saudi columnist and blogger, 23-year-old Hamza Kashgari (Hamza), thousands of angry responses called for his blood for the “crime” of “blasphemy and apostasy” which are punishable by death in Muslim Countries. Hamza’s misfortune started when he tweeted a few messages explaining an imaginary conversation he had with Prophet Mohammed in which he told the Prophet, “On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you’ve always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you.”

    In non-Muslim countries, this would be considered personal opinion at best, or who cares, he is entitled to his personal opinion. Not in Muslim countries, especially in Saudi Arabia whose king and many of its population insist that Islam is the religion of peace, forgiveness and the only faith that can save humanity.
    Within a few hours after Hamza’s tweets hit the social media, more than 30 thousand angry responses flooded internet chat rooms, websites and videos. Some Saudi clerics called for Hamza’s execution and put bounty money on his head. Ironically, the very same clerics who demanded Hamza’s torture and execution for offending the Prophet Mohammed consider celebrating the Prophet’s birthday a sacrilege. They want people to celebrate and glorify the Prophet all the time, not only once a year. In addition, any celebration of occasions other than the two major Muslim Eids (Al-Fiter and Eldha, marking the end of Ramadan fasting and completion of the Hajj’s annual rituals) are considered Bid’ah, a novelty, or infidel’s tradition.

    Realizing that his life was threatened, Hamza took the first flight out of Saudi Arabia to seek asylum in New Zealand, a non-Muslim state in which freedom of expression and individual liberty are enshrined in a non-sectarian constitution. Unluckily for Hamza, he had to change flights in Malaysia, a country the West gullibly praises as a moderate Muslim state.

    What Hamza did not know was that the Saudi authorities had called their counterparts in the Malaysian regime in Kuala Lumpur and instructed them to arrest and return Hamza to Saudi Arabia, where he will most likely be tortured, executed, or deposited for decades in a Saudi dungeon—much like Hadi Al-Mutaif of Najran, who at the age of 18 was sentenced to death for saying “pray on –” (one of the Prophet’s private parts). He was spared the death sentence because of global pressure, but incarcerated for 18 years, from 1994 to 2012.

    It’s not a surprise that the Saudi clerics reacted with vengeance, that’s what they are paid to do. However, one would think by now that the Saudi people would have taken advantage of Hamza’s controversial tweets and engaged in constructive discussions about taboos imposed on them by their autocratic and theocratic rulers, who use religion to divide, oppress, segregate, control and exploit them.

    What concerns us at the Washington-based Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia (CDHR) is not what Hamza said, but his right to express his personal views freely. However, freedom of unfavorable religious expressions under the Saudi ruling family’s system is considered an insult to the state and its rulers. According to a royal decree issued by King Abdullah in April 2011, criticism of the royals and their clerical front men is forbidden — which puts these exclusive rulers on the same footing as the Prophet.

    The saga of Hamza and Malaysia’s decision to arrest a transient passenger and deport him to be tortured in Saudi Arabia must be taken gravely by Muslims and non-Muslims alike, as correctly noted by British blogger/columnist Andrew Brown: “The case of Hamza Kashgari, a young Saudi journalist who has just been deported from Malaysia to face trial on charges of blasphemy, is one that should frighten and disgust anyone who cares about freedom of speech or religion.”
    As barbaric as it may be, torture and execution are common practices under the Saudi state’s Shariah law as evidenced by 79 executions in 2011 and 8 in Jan. and Feb. 2012–the year just started.

    The repercussions of Hamza’s misfortune are dangerously multifaceted. The Saudi regime wants to remind its already subjugated citizenry that although they may run, they will have no place to hide, especially in Muslim countries.
    The regime also wants to convince Muslims worldwide that the Saudi rulers are the only true defenders of Islam, especially at a time when Muslim parties are ascending to power in countries like Egypt and Tunisia. The Saudi autocracies fear that these parties will overshadow them because they are elected by and accountable to the masses whose revolutions put them in power.
    In addition, the Saudi autocracies want to remind the beneficiaries of their largess and nepotism, especially the 56 members of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), headquartered in Saudi Arabia, that far-reaching financial and religious measures will be applied if Saudi demands are not readily heeded as in the example of Malaysia.
    However, the real target of Saudi religious and economic intimidation and blackmail are Western democracies, their institutionalized religious freedoms, and freedom of all forms of expression. This is what the OIC’s sponsored United Nations (UN) Resolution 16/18 is designed to accomplish: silence freedom of expression. It must be rejected by “anyone who cares about freedom of expression and religion.”
    Contrary to its misleading tone and the disingenuous argument of its promoters, defenders, appeasers and apologists in the West, UN Resolution 16/18 (“anti-religion defamation”) is intended to criminalize freedom of speech and individual liberty, globally. The question that Secretary Clinton and her European counterpart (s) must ask when they meet with representatives of the OIC to discuss 16/18 is why criticism or defamation of religion leads to violence only by Muslims in and out of their lands of origins. If any more discussions of this anti-freedom-of-expression resolution are necessary, they must be held publicly so Muslims and non-Muslims can see and hear the damage 16/18 would do to them.

    Finally, UN Resolution 16/18 is predicated on the August 5, 1990 Arab Declaration on Human Rights which unequivocally states that Shariah law supersedes all civilizational norms and universally accepted declarations on human rights: “Every man shall have the right, within the framework of Shari’ah, to free movement and to select his place of residence whether inside or outside his country and, if persecuted, is entitled to seek asylum in another country” (Article12.) This is proof that if it were not for Shariah law, Saudi writer Hamza would not have been arrested by the Malaysian bandits and sent to be tortured in Saudi Arabia.

  21. During his prophethood, Mohammed (S) emphasised the importance of honest opinion; hence we see that during his leadership he encouraged people to voice sound opinions that served the public interest. FREEDOM OF OPINION IS GUARANTEED IN THE ISLAMIC SOCIETY, AND THE INDIVIDUAL IN A MUSLIM SOCIETY HAS THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS HIS OPINION FREELY, EVEN IF THIS OPINION DIFFERS FROM THAT OF SOME RULER. One of the rights of the muslim individual is to express his point of view in an atmosphere of safety and security, with no fear that some dictatorship will strangle the freedom of thought and speech.

    A clear example is that of Umar Khattab who was a leading companion to the prophet Muhammad who later became the second Muslim Caliph after Muhammad’s death. He objected to the treaty of Hudaybiyah by mohammed (S). From Umars objection to the messenger of Allah, Mohammed (S)we understand that objection to the head of the state is not a crime that deserves to be punished or for which a person deserves to disappear into the prison system.

    The Saudi government DOES NOT represent ISLAM. The meaning of Islam is PEACE. Im not a scholar nor a historian, but one only needs to read a few lines from the Quran and about the life and companions of Mohammed (s) to understand how perfect, beautiful and peaceful the religion of Islam is.

  22. Selma, while I applaud your dedication to peace there is nothing in Islam which supports your claim that Islam is a religion of peace. Read the book, the only bits you can cherry pick to support your view are the oldest bits when Mohammed had to show a friendly face, and which he made sure were obrigated by later aggressive verses. As well as making sure the rule of obrigation is established.
    The example of the prophet is one of of sneak attacks on unsuspecting villages, murder, genocide, enslavement and rape. And sending out sneaky assassins to murder those who spoke out against him.
    Mohammed’s Dead Poets Society.

    I applaud your personal dedication to peace but surely you can see in the world today that wherever Islam is the dominant religion, peace, human rights, justice, women’s rights, and freedom of religion, and even freedom of thought are non existant.
    You really cannot claim that this religion has anything to do with peace.

  23. PLEASE keep in mind that just because Texas has the death penalty and has KILLED and MURDERED innocent individuals using the lethal injection and electric chair, does not mean it represents Christianity and if you get an extra minute or two to spare after writing opinions about Islam (and not about peoples behaviours who call themselves muslims) read the Quran, read about the TRUE leaders of Islam such as Mohammed, Umar Ibn Ktthab, Abu Bakr, Ali, and Salah Uddin. Peace.

  24. Aefke

    Firstly, Peace be upon you and your family.

    Thank you for your response and accusations on the Prophet (S), the best man that walked the face of the earth. I would ask you evidence of each of these accusations, however I wish to first start here;

    Please enlighten me : Please tell me which Non-muslim country in the world today is a country of religion, peace, human rights, justice, women’s rights, and freedom of religion, and even freedom of thought ?

    Look forward to your post.
    Peace & Blessings
    selma

  25. Well, my own country, The Netherlands, while still not perfect of course, does a lot better in all these categories than any Islamic country of your choice.
    Of course we do have a very high percentage of atheists, and are a secular country, which accounts for our prosperity, freedom and general sense of well being.

    There will always be some percentage of any population who are racist, misogynist, or religious nutters, but here in the Netherlands such people are seen for what they are: ”nutters”. They do not get to be religious police like in Saudi Arabia. Insane bloodthirsty clerics are seen for what they are, they do net get positions of power like in Saudi Arabia. Here you can say you talk to some god every day, or you can say gods do not exist, whatever you like, without being murdered for it.
    The only people we had murdered for religion here in recent years were people who criticized Islam, the ”religion of peace”. Pim Fortuiyn and Theo van Gogh. Theo van Gogh made a very short, very poetic movie about the suffering of women under Islam, that was enough to get him murdered, Ayaan Hirshi Ali, who has suffered herself from Islam’s suppression of women, and who collaborated on the movie, has to spend the rest of her life under protection from the assassins of the ”religion of peace”.
    As many others like Salman Rushdie.

    If anything the Dutch are so friendly, permissive and open, they are not aware of the dangers posed by the more dangerous and nasty religions of the world, like Islam.

    The Dutch are amongst the happiest people in the world.

    Oh, and we also make great contributions towards science and medicine.

    I will take the Netherlands any time over a country which is suffering from the stifling evil corruption of religion, the insanity of murdering people for putting out a tweet, or the idiocy of believing in witchcraft. Not to mention the enslavement of 50% of the population: all those who had the bad fortune to be born without a penis.

    Islam has done nothing to prove itself as the religion of peace, but conversely, proves itself day after day to be the religion of corruption, murder, oppression and enslavement.

  26. By the way in some parts of Europe if you deny the Holocaust you can be imprisoned. And here we are talking about the Prophet Mohammed (s) Countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways- This is just the tip of the ice berg for non muslim country’s who have limited freedom of thought.

    Aefke, I could write you a whole books or books about Non-muslim countries in the world today which do NOT promote religion, peace, human rights, justice, women’s rights, and freedom of religion, and even freedom of thought (in fact I may just do that) but I await your reply on the list of countries that do.

    I thought this may interest you also :

    The following is what Western Scholars have written about Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.):
    Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:
    “If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls… the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
    Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”

    Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay, History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54:
    “It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran…The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’, is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”

    Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:
    “He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

    Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4:
    “It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”
    W. Montgomery, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:
    “His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”

    James A. Michener, ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion’ in Reader’s Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70:
    “Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.
    “Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: “There is one God.”
    “In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God’s personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.’
    “At Muhammad’s own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'”

    Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:
    “My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level.”

    I hope you enjoy the readings and look forward to your reply
    peace 🙂 Smile its a Sunnah

  27. Look, you asked for one country which does better than all Islamic countries, which is basically all non-Islamic countries anyway, but I gave you one: my own country the Netherlands.
    So why the long comment?
    You do not actually respond to my comment, my example, you are just trying to change the subject.

    Oh, but that is a response in itself isn’t it? You concede that the Netherlands is far superior in it’s freedoms, human rights, women’s rights, religious rights, morality and decency to all Islamic countries, but you don’t want to actually say so and so you change the subject and write a long boring comment and hope nobody will notice.

  28. Selma

    ‘The meaning of Islam is PEACE’

    While I agree with you islam is beautiful religion, I do not think that is right the meaning of islam is peace. ALSLAM means peace, but ISLAM mean another thing.

    Islam is the religion of peace! I often hear this but don’t know where it came from. This is not accurate. Islam is the religion of peace with who deserve peace. making peace in the situation which requires war is not justice. Islam is the religion of justice. I think the statement ‘islam is the religion of peace’ was used partly to contain the resistance to the imperial occupation in iraq and Afghanistan. Self defence is legal in Islam and I wonder if that make islam the religion of no peace.

    These accusations of islam were used in the past to justify the colonisation of muslims lands. But it is not clear why it is still used today! may be because it still in the literature. And I think there is no need to answer these accusations, or we should not take them seriously. You will find good literature about Islam among the old colonial powers such as the dutch and the english. The dutch study islam extensively while they were dealing with muslims in south east Asia. And also the English at the time of the empire.

    I would like to share this article from the New york times in 1914 and it shows you how the approach to muslim world have not changed that much since the colonial era.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30C1FFF355D13738DDDA80894DA405B848DF1D3

  29. Sorry Aefke, im not sure what religion you are but it seems to me you are focussing on all the negative aspects of the behaviours of the minority of muslims.

    If I did the same, we could go on forever. I could start from Pope Gregory XI through to the Holocaust through to the thousands of children killed in the Iraqi war and still in places like Syria BECAUSE OF THE NON MUSLIM COUNTRYS ‘THE ‘FREE’ COUNTRY’S SELLING ARMS etc and promoting the hatred and pretending to help because of their greed.

    Calling this ‘pockets’ of countries which dont uphold human rights is an insult to every man woman child facing displacement, torture and murder.

    Most of the non- muslim country’s should and will one day be held accountable as well as the so called leaders of muslim country’s who the majority of 1.6 billion muslims KNOW are hypocrites.

    Re women: Lets go back to the drawing board and compare ISLAM (not hearsay) but ISLAM to another widely practiced religion. That is the QURAN which hasn’t changed for 1400 years and maintains every word, to the Bible of today which Christians follow and believe in.

    http://www.christianity-islam.com/woman.html

    Finally please also do your homework on who aids and who is in bed with the Saudi government which you keep referring to- this may direct your attention to the other side of the globe.

    Peace

    P.s Congratulations to the Netherlands for the contributions to science and medicine which (including the atom) are already explained in the Quran 1400 years ago.

  30. If all modern science is explained in the Quran then why are Islamic countries so backwards? The Quran explains nothing, it reflects exactly the flawed primitive understanding of science and medicine which was the common knowledge of the time.
    For example: the mistakes the Quran makes in describing the forming of a human fetus are exactly the Galenic medicine’s mistakes that were wide spread in the middle east at the time.

    And read up on history, Islam is made up of plagiarized Christianity (Christianity is a sect of Judaism) and some pagan beliefs of the area. Like the pagans Muslims are still walking around the kaaba, and throwing stones at pillars. The misogyny in Judaism and Christianity is probably responsible for the misogyny in Islam.

    You will find that all countries who are advanced in freedom of speech, religion, emancipation of women etc. are secular countries. Countries where religion, (whatever religion) does not have power in government.

    There is a clear correlation worldwide: The more religious the country, the more backwards, poor and the less freedom and human rights.
    The more secular, the less religious, and the more atheists a country: the more advanced in science and technology, the wealthier, and the happier people are.

    You still do not address the fact that the Netherlands is a much better country in every respect than all Islamic countries combined.

  31. Yes i was busy writing my long boring comment and just read your comment about Netherlands being far superior than any muslim country.

    Maybe our definitions of Human Rights are different. I have not ignored your question at all.

    Question: If I was to move to the Netherlands and I met a man- we fell in love and got married. Then after 2 years of marriage my husband is bored of me and has an affair – Or lets say even if I wasn’t married and we are cohabiting. What rights do i have as a wife, what justice do I get?

    And, what hat are the rights of a wife over a husband when she gets married- I mean is there a LEGAL obligation for him to support her financially, to provide her a LOVING home and to be KIND to her at all times?

  32. In term of GDP per capita Qatar is far better than Holland. Just one quick fact.

  33. “The mistakes the Quran makes in describing the forming of a human fetus are exactly the Galenic medicine’s mistakes that were wide spread in the middle east at the time.”

    The reason why they are more wealthier is because they have STOLEN everything – because they DO NOT FEAR A CREATOR. THEY THINK THEY WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR DEEDS.

    Third world debt.

    HAPPIER, WHERE? WHO? Please tell me and il move there especially if my rights as a woman are better than islamic rights, il change my religion lol

    RECESSION!! Theres so many expats escaping to the middle east, the middles East cant build quick enough.

    I think you are assuming I like it in Saudi- nope I dont! Ive escaped the cold harsh weather of the west, the recession, the pay gap between men and women, the taxes that go into the pockets of fraudsters (government) and which pay for the consequences of drunkards. The fact that i cant walk out alone in the evening without having the fear of someone stabbing me or being raped. In fact its the safest country in the world.

    Finally, id love to visit the Netherlands one day, this is all Allahs land and He has said “seek knowledge even if you have to f=go to China” so InshaAllah I will.

    Peace & Blessings
    Selma
    p.s if someone blasphemies about the beloved Prophet (S) who’s love is greater for Him than the love for their parents and who’s love runs through the blood of 1.6 billion (and counting) muslims then that person deserve the punishment.

    It is my duty as a Muslim to respond to allegations against Islam and clarify misconceptions to the best of my ability.

    In spite of all the negative propaganda in a section of the western media, ironically Islam still happens to be the fastest growing religion, not just in the west but also across the world. The more people try to suppress Islam, the more it will prevail. Allah (swt) will make His Deen (Islam) to prevail over all the other ways of life irrespective of people mocking and ridiculing His messengers. As Allah says in the Glorious Quran:

    “Mocked were (many) Messengers before thee; but the scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked.” [Surah Al-An’aam 6:10].

    Generations have come and gone, this generation will come to pass, no wealth or technology of this ‘free’ and ‘happy’ world you refer to can stop that. That day we will meet our Creator, The Lord of the worlds. Man made rules.laws,conventions with clauses and loop holes don’t even compare to His.

    Peace

  34. “For example: the mistakes the Quran makes in describing the forming of a human fetus are exactly the Galenic medicine’s mistakes that were wide spread in the middle east at the time.” (sorry i had mistakingly put this above the last comment)

    Very interesting finding of yours : Please elaborate……

  35. Snowman, but money isn’t anything, and I think that it doesn’t really count if you get the money just thrown into your lap with oil, We actually make our money, by industry, agriculture, trade etc. Besides, money alone is not enough, and more money isn’t necessarily better, as long as you have enough for a decent life, educate your children, go on holiday etc, what more does anybody need? The Dutch at least are satisfied with what they have. And the freedoms we have.

    And, what hat are the rights of a wife over a husband when she gets married- I mean is there a LEGAL obligation for him to support her financially, to provide her a LOVING home and to be KIND to her at all times?
    Exactly, in the Netherlands marriage is considered a partnership. Not a ”sex and babies for upkeep” business deal, we do not have the man pay mahr, Sex for pleasure as the Islamic schools for jurisprudence describe it.

    And therefore your rights and duties are equal to his. There is a LEGAL obligation for him to look after you, unlike in Islam, where you can be dumped by the mere speaking of a few words (or a text message) And unlike Islam you have an equal right to YOUR children. And unlike Islam he has a LEGAL obligation to keep looking after you and YOUR children after divorce. Unless you make your own money and are well off by yourself, which is something you would have every opportunity to be in the developed world. Making you a strong and independent human being, needing nobody, being able to support your own children, friends and family.
    And yes, he has to provide you with a LOVING home, and you don’t have to share him with other LOVING homes.

    And how sad that you do not consider yourself fascinating enough to keep up your beloved’s interest for longer than two years…

  36. Selma, sure, if you read the Quran and compare it with what Galenic medicine had to say on the subject you will find that the Quran repeats it complete with all the mistakes.
    If you compare the Quran with a modern book on embryology you will also see where the Quran gets it wrong.

    Watch this video which makes it a lot easier:

  37. I asked you about womens rights in Netherlands but you keep talking about Islam. Sorry are you a Scholar or professor. The numerous western professors over the decades which I listed above – what do u say about them and their views?

    I asked you about rights of a woman if the partner was unfaithful? The two years is the average year a non muslim relationship usually lasts. This truth made you angry and urged you to become personal. Ask your friends, family and look at the statistics of long string of relationships outside of marriage and number of divorces in non muslims. This is all due to lack of religion. Read the posts by the BBC THIS WEEK itself on lack of religion in the west and its consequences.

    You have made statements about the rights of women which are completely false- both in the Netherlands and in Islam and you have insulted me personally and purposely by your last comment – if you were a muslim practicing brother you would not have done so because a muslim brother would know that heaven lies in the woman’s feet. (Praise be to Allah, the dignity, the respect and the status of muslim women – u cant even BEGIN TO imagine) Thus its pointless discussing any further..

    May YOUR/OUR CREATOR help you to seek knowledge, question and give you the ability to understand and accept the truth without insulting women who’s paths you cross in your lifetime.

    Peace.

  38. Re: Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33:

    Selma,

    If you had bothered to go beyond numero uno, you would have also found on the same top 100 list such mass murderers as Hitler, Stalin,
    Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung, and the list goes on ….

    Re: Miraces In the Koran

    In addition to the excellent video that Aafke posted on embryology, here is another source which gets the record straight on many other purported “isamic” miracles:

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Science

  39. @Selma,

    LOL, Perhaps some education will help. You are still at learning the definition stage.

    Example:

    Islam does not mean Peace it means Submission.

    A husband being required to financially support a woman is an Entitlement not a Right. Know the difference between these 2 if you want to have an intellectual discussion.

    It seems you also have not heard of any of the strong arguments against your religion. Including the crazy miracle claims.

    You are in a desperate need of an education not a debate on these topics. And please spare the readers the constant Copy and paste. If you cannot put it in your own words, that should be a clue to you that you do not know the subject well enough to debate it.

  40. Honestly Honest your in denial!

    wikiIslam – Is that BC a AD looooool this one made me laugh.

    Are you serious?

  41. Dear MoQ

    You seem concerned – educate me please.

    PEACE!

  42. @Selma,

    You have the responsibility to educate yourself. Make an investment. You do not get that Entitlement here 😉

  43. I see why my friends (NON MUSLIM BY THE WAY) told me not to bother with blogs on here as its full of personal insults instead of open dialogue. Lack of religion= lack of respect for others.

    PEACE.

  44. @ Selma,

    Lack of religion = Lack of respect for ideas that are not supported.

    Your issue is you attach yourself to these bad ideas so you become the same. No wonder you feel people do not respect you. The solution is easy make a separation between your ego and these concepts and perhaps you may be able to evaluate them without emotions.

    Regarding not debating on blogs, yes your friend is right. You won’t be able to win debates where you defend bad ideas. Others who have better arguments in a free forum will be able to work through your bad logic. There a better way for you, find blogs or forums with like minded people where ideas are not discussed freely and you will always win 🙂

  45. @Selma

    You are just so tiresome. I’m too lazy to destroy your rant word for word but let me offer a few shots:

    – please provide evidence for your claim that an average non-muslim relationship lasts two years

    – did you know that divorce in Saudi is 50%? in what is this superior to non-muslims?

    – about your rights as a Muslim woman: this subject is so rich that I don’t know where to pick. Your husband, in Islam, has ample opportunity to be unfaithful to you in a way that you can do nothing about. That is, he can legally sleep with you, and three others. And if he decides to do that, there isn’t a thing you can do.

    In Islam, if you spend your life with a man taking care of his house and his children, and twenty years later he tires of you, he can send you on your merry way with nothing but three months’ worth of living expenses. If my husband does that to me in the West, the law gives me ONE HALF of everything he earned during our life together. Even if I never worked during marriage. I don’t think Islam can top that.

    Did you know your husband can stop you from working if he chooses?

    Did you know custody of your children is not at all guaranteed for you post-divorce?

    Did you know that your husband can divorce you easily, at any time, but if YOU want to divorce him, you will have to beg and plead your case with the judge? One of the frequent posters here spent 20 years in Bahrain with a husband who molested their children and yet the judge didn’t want to divorce them? Did you know?

    So please, do tell, in what way is your position better than mine?

    Finally, I know you love your Quran, and I will not deny you the right to love it. Neither can you force me to close my eyes to the fact that’s it tedious and full of mistakes.

  46. @ Aafke-Art,

    I’m not going to do into depth of the historical accounts of who said what, when what happened and who did what because I believe you need to go back and asses your own fundamental beliefs. Do you believe in God or not – after answering that question, assuming you answer YES THERE IS A GOD, can we then proceed with more meaningful discussions.

    A person can end life by killing it, but once life has started to grow who among you can stop it? who among you can speed it up? or who among you can pause it?

    Your understanding of Islam is limited by the scope of your vision – A term coined many moons ago “..for the greater good..” would provide you with thoughtful insight into why, as an example, sex outside of wedlock is NEVER A GOOD idea. I’ll not go into depth at the harms and ills this causes among society because i’d rather not patronise your intelligence, but will continue to keep these examples basic for someone with a basic scope of understanding.

    @ Selma, thank you for sharing in this discussion, some very insightful commentaries – I’ll be sure to read up on them.

  47. Ali:

    “Far-fetched comparison. True, every society has its nuts, but we are protected by non-sectarian Constitution, bill of rights, separation of church and state, checks and balances, independent non-religious court system and thousands of independent civil society apparatus. None of this exists in Arab and Muslim countries.”

    I am firmly aware of the mechanisms that we have in the Unitied States. However currently there is a number of legislation attempts to inflicit religious morality upon the populace here in the US. Such as the Personhood bill that can make it impossible to get hormonal birth control in certain state and the rape bill that allows a women who wants an abortion for any reason including she had been raped, possible death,etc to be forced to undergo a transvaginal exams against her wishes, not medically necessary and against the doctors wishes A recent law just made in possible to decriminated against people for adoption which includes being able to deny them adoption depending upon race, gender, orientation, religion and there a few more provision.

    Currently, we have a presidential candidate Santorum that believes that birth control harms women and would do away with it. Whats Gods law and the law of the nation to be the same, doesn’t like women in the workforce as they are going against gods role for them, believes education allows people to go away from god therefore education should be taught as long as christian principles are strictly taught and pretty much the focus. This group is want to determine what access women have to health care based upon their narrow belief system. I will assure your that God’s law is a christian version of a bookmade and crafted god of there teaching which is totally different from other bookmade crafted the one gods.

    Recently the 14th amendment was used to try to cover the Walmart case where women were discriminated against as a case action lawsuit went up to the supreme court where it was dismissed. It was during this case that Judge Scalia stated that the framers of the 14th amendment never had any intention of having the word “person” extend to women.

    Now the Christian right has been stating that this country was based on God. There are people who believe that God is mentioned in the Constitution therefore it lend reason to their belief. They whole heartly believe this, however, God is NEVER mentioned. In 1950’s the US inserted “in god we trust” on dollar bills and then inserted “under god” in the pledge of allegiences. Just this belief and the few cues on money and in the recitation of the pledges has created controversy between secularism and the religious.

    The hasdic Jews in NY already have their own community with morality police and seperation of men and women. They have alot of sexual abuse of children recently come to light, fraud cases etc. They hold a hugh voting block in NY. This has caused problems with secular views. Women who have been deemed to be dressed immodestly have been almost ran off the road by some of their followers and public busing in the area practically force women to set in the back of the bus away from men even thought it is funded by public monies.

    Then you go to the recent events of the Ultra Orthodox Jews in Isreal and the recent clashes there between secular and the orthodox. They used intimidation tactics, harass 8 years, get paid for studying the talmud all day and practically nothing else, put up seperation barriers for men and women, recently they have made changes to their laws that limit secular and free thought and the changes slowly keep coming.

    There are also other countries who embraced Christianity and some of that is this extremism version which could have a direct effect on world events.

    Now, the muslims are not the only ones who believe in the doctrine of gradualism or that the women’s uterus can be used as a means of a future weapon. Christians and Jews of this extremist faction use this idea.

    So just to sum up just because today’s extremist are muslims doens’t mean that we don’t have extremist of christians and jews with specific agendas to erode all the mechanisms by inserting their people into specific offices that will ensure the erosion.

    Let me give you an individual to research, Virginia’s Govenor Bob McDonnald. Research his paper and his points that he wrote in 1988 on what he wanted to ensure the government to do. Then look at recent events of Virgina.

    So my point is that these religions including muslim religion must be kept in check because when they are allowed in seems to create very strong group who will go after power then turn into a controlling murderous hateful vile bunch all of which is sanctioned by the manmade holy books.

    Let’s remember that the United States is one of the biggest supporters of Saudi as well and as such the US allows itself to be open to such extremism as it stands by and in many way supports the suppression and oppression of people.

    Should OIC attempts at getting the topic of religion as a tabbo subject off the protected speech it will not only enable muslims to keep from having their religion questioned but also other religions. The Catholic Church is a great proponet to such an attempt and I assure you they are also hoping for such an erosion of speech. I would image that you know the Catholic Church’s past and ugly history.

    Granted this is a little of topic as it moves to other religions who have extremist but I assure you their goals are the same but the one fact remains is that these groups will always hate each other.

    Remember the theory of gradualism and uterus control. They are one of the greatest weapons for such causes as society control.

  48. Moq (is that a drink? 😉

    “wonder if people do not respect me” there you go again. Our definition of respect is quite different too. If he /she had said that to ure mother or sister/wife you would laugh at it with them.

    There is no place for ego/arrogance in Islam and certainly not when one is requesting more information.

    Bad ideas lol ok il join W. Montgomery the foremost non- Muslim interpreter of Islam in the West’ blog instead.

    Enjoy the rest of your drink.
    Peace

  49. NN

    Yes I agree with you, your’e very lazy especially if you are asking those questions in 2012!!! You thought you would just trod along with Bush above and the drunk guy on WikiIslam.

    The facts are there in front of you & quite frankly the other debaters were challenging. So il be on my way…..

  50. oooh. now this is all too interesting! A bunch of non believing people. Its actually not worth getting into discussions here.

    I know that you all are lovely people.. regardless of where in the world you are, you have taken time to comment and post, to share and be heard, to listen and digest to thoughts and opinions of yourself and others.

    Bottom line is… we all breathe, live, love, eat, sleep (most of us).. and when we get to the core of our existence we find common ground to work from.

    All of the rulers you see, those people who suffer, those who are better off.. started life in the same way. from a child. They, you, we and I did not know who we would eventually come to be.. whether a leader, a slave, a maid, an MP etccc.. so let not your stance or status in society fool you into having a false sense of identity.

    When you understand that there is a CREATOR, and you are CREATED, then and only then will you let go of your pride and ego

    Can anyone tell me a fluid, that starts off liquidy, then transforms to a structure, that then walks breathes and talks, that then creates and designs technologies, ships to sail on, that farms the land, that creatures subjects to study?

    I think we should take a break here and revise our thought structures and check our stand points.

    Knowledge & understanding is a process of input, buffer, output

    Stimulus input —> (BUFFER which is your reasoning bases of what you’ve been taught) –> Output that if formulated from the input mixed with the buffer.

  51. Selma, your problem is that you cannot parry our responses to you, you come here with the same old bad arguments we have seen for years, it is a matter of routine to debunk them.
    I understand you do not like to see your believes debunked by facts, and that is what you get when you go onto forums like these with knowledgeable people.

    So what in my answer did you not understand about women’s rights in the Netherlands?
    Again: If your significant other cheats on you he or she is a pig. And you have the right to be pissed about it, everybody will agree with you, not tell you to lump it because he has more rights than you have. If you are married your husband is not allowed to replace you by buying a younger and sexier model.
    You have the right to divorce him with the same rights as he has. As he cheated on you you will get the better of him. You have the same rights to your children. As a mother you will probably get to keep your children so you actually have more rights. You have the right to get alimony.
    You have had the same education as boys and you can take any job you like, make your own money and be an independent human being.
    What is it you do not understand about women’s rights?

    Also, you baby girls will have the right to be children, no man has the right to sell them into sexual bondage to some old pedophile in ”marriage”.
    You have the right to go to court. You do not need a man to do it for you.
    You have the right to speak your mind, about any subject. You can even deny the holocaust, everybody will think you are a stupid insane cow, but you are free to be a stupid insane cow as much as you like.
    You are free to support whatever crackpot religion you choose. You can wear whatever you want. You can talk to whomever you want. You have the right to a proper education. You have the right to welfare and medical help. You have the right to be yourself, act for yourself, and to be regarded as a sentient human being.
    You have the right to marry your girlfriend if you are lesbian.
    You and your lesbian wife can adopt children.
    You have the right not to marry and live with whomever you love, you have the right to put up any legal agreement in lieu of marriage if you think marriage is obsolete.
    You can proclaim you are atheist if you are not convinced by any of the man-made religions.
    You have the right to say or write anything about anybody or anything without getting tortured or killed.
    You have the right to drive whatever means of transport you like.
    You even have the right to be a useless, pointless, religiously obsessed slave to a man if that is what you prefer.

    You just have rights.
    Law courts will support those rights, and you have access to those courts. You also have the right to a lawyer, if you have no money there are agencies to help you.
    What is it you do not understand about all this?
    Too alien a concept for you?

    Lets see what rights some people do not have in the developed world:
    Men do not have the right to beat up their wives
    Men cannot rape their wives
    Men cannot upgrade to extra wives/booty
    Men cannot sell their daughters into sexual slavery/marriage
    Men cannot kill their underage ”wives” by raping them to death and not get punished. (like what happened in Yemen)
    Men cannot keep their daughters from marrying whom they wish
    Men cannot forbid their wives to go out, go to work, etc.
    Men cannot divorce their wives merely by saying so, they have to go to court and make a case
    Men cannot abandon wives and children, they have to pay for their upkeep as long as necessary.
    Men also have to pay for children they fathered while not being married.
    etc. etc.

    So you can complain about how men in the West have less rights than men in Islamic societies, but you can rejoice about women having a lot more rights in the West than in Islamic societies.

  52. NN:

    Just a point of correction on the divorce rate is 62%. It is actually higher than the US.

  53. @Selma,

    Seriously, how did you develop the talent of stringing so many sentences together and managing to say nothing?

    @All,

    I think there is a revert cube out there. Every few weeks they send one of their zombies to bore us with the same nonsensical arguments and claims that we do not respect them. Selma just follows the same lines we heard before.

  54. Selma:

    Here is the thing. Most converts leave after 3 years as often they get into a religion before they fully understand the religion. Currently, there are still a lot of people who are uneducated in the principles of Islam and it is fashionable in a way to some converts and exotic. After a while many of the converts who go away from the religion have many regrets for every joining it.

  55. @ All

    A simple question.. do you believe you are created and that there is a creator.

    Yes or No? You’d save yourselves and others a lot of trouble.

    Second question.. How do you know ‘what is right’ and ‘what is wrong’

    Its worrying to see such talented people lacking common sense… Ask yourself where common reasoning comes from, how opinions become internalised overtime and evolve into affirmed believes by the masses – example, Paganism

  56. beliefs*

  57. Dear NN

    When you divorce you take your rights with you. You have half of what your husband owns SINCE 1400 YEARS AGO NOT JUST IN THE LAST 30-50 YEARS AS IN THE UK where women werent even allowed to vote let alone having rights in marriage.

    And If you are a ‘girlfriend’ like many are in the west then you don’t and you don’t get any justice if theres evidence of foul play on your boyfriends part.

    What is the comparison in rape cases ? Isnt it every 7 minutes in the US?

    I think Dubai is our best bet 😉

  58. @Selma

    Actually, the only questions in my post were “Did you know?” I don’t have questions about Islam. I just had a question about your knowledge. But clearly, we are not going to have THAT conversation.

    You are new to this blog. So you are not familiar with my stance on converts. Here it is, for your benefit, out of the goodness of my heart:

    Counting converts at the point of conversion is like counting fat people who give New Year’s resolutions to lose weight. Come back in three years and see if your ass is still fat. Likewise, come back in three years and see if your convert is still sporting the hijab.

    Lastly, it is my experience that most convert women have a Muslim boyfriend they want to please. We all know what I’d say to that.

  59. NN, thank you for an excellent comment
    I don’t think you are going off topic by pointing out the hatred of women in all Abrahamic religions. I was shocked to learn that now the insane American rightwingers even want to denie women birthcontrol!
    btw, 99% of women in America use or have used birthcontrol at one point in their lives.
    Luckily America has an ironclad secular constitution, but it is worrying how these politicians even can speak out without being laughed off the boards and being fired on the spot.
    Religion is our greatest enemy.

    Christopher Hitchens:

  60. Two points:

    1–Most people who convert to Islam do it for the wrong reasons. Not very complimentary at all.

    2– No one debunk Islam more than Muslims. Look at the slaughtering in Muslim lands, treatment of women, religious minorities and incitement against non-Muslims.

    Compare these facts with burning a book, Koran, and tell who debunked whom.

    I propose new topic that has more wordily impact on all peoples, like UN Resolution 16/18. I could write a short blurb for it, if asked to do so.

    You all have a good weekend and enduring energy, mine is slowing down.

  61. Moq

    Im hearing the same lines from you too. And nice of you to keep the debate going for us whilst we went and prayed to the Almighty creator.

    Keep it up! The more discussions on Islam the better. Just please don’t use the zionists as examples of muslims.

    Thanks

  62. Selma, please, it is a logical fallacy to use conversion stories as a proof that you are right. Especially as they don’t add the deconversion stories, something to which you have a right you know, in a secular society you don’t get killed for changing your mind.
    By the same token I could put up a list of how many people commit suicide.
    Does that prove suicide is a superior tactic to deal with life?

  63. @Selma

    Please provide evidence that Islam gives “half of what her husband owns” to a woman in case of divorce.

  64. @Selma,

    “You have half of what your husband owns SINCE 1400 YEARS AGO”

    Perhaps you should check your facts on this one. This is what i mean with lack of education, even on simple things. And we are supposed to take you seriously?

    And learn the difference between the word zionists and zombies.

  65. In addition, do provide evidence what “rights” Islam provides to a woman whose husband has been unfaithful. I’d love to see actual evidence. I’d also love to see actual court cases.

  66. she has the right to lump it an keep on praying and after death she will be rewarded in Jannah where she can watch her husband getting it off with 72 virgins and some pearly boys.
    I really don’t see why women want to be Muslim. I understand the men, but I don’t understand the women.

  67. Selma:

    You really need to do some research into what Islam took away from women intially. Women were able to be owners of business, able to run governments and in some societies had a degree more power over men. There is actually no evidence that Islam actually assisted women in gaining any further freedoms except than for a small faction of groups who buried their female children. In fact, there is more evidence that freedoms were taken away and women were villified as the pathway to sin and that Islam took up the same sick view of women as Christians with some extra added insults.

    Next Christians insured the same for women. Back in the 1st and 2nd century women were able to have business, have positions in government, were initially wecolmed into the early formations of the new religion then all that changed once a codified book (325) similar to the koran (manmade holy book) was crafted took away numerous rights and systematically made women into chattle. Go back to the Talmad you will find the same. The Abrahamic religions, under the one god theory is one of the most hateful religious intiatives since inception. Paganism was often times far more accepting of other gods and practices and actually in some ways lived in a secular manner. That is not to say that some acts were not brutal by some types of groups.

    This was also true of Mecca before Muhammad insisted that everyone follow his version of things to the point of creating a hostile situation in Mecca. The people finally got tired of his hateful tirades, intolerance and self-appointment that they told him to leave. He actually was the one who drew first blood. So today the two holy cities only follow the path of such an intolerant individual has become as the most intolerate and exclusive area now known. Completely contradictory to what it was before Muhammad. I will find the website later on this subject. If you are actually looking to expand your understanding of the formation of religion and seek other information outside the pages of the koran. If not, then this exercise your on is futile.

  68. Ali:

    Please do. You information is very insightful and I think it provides some overview that many of us have not look at or researched.

  69. I don’t see how that UN resolution can ever pass, it is against most constitutions, human rights and freedom of speech.
    The UN is passé, an obsolete organization which should be disbanded. if the pass this resolution it has proven to have no right to exist anymore.

  70. I”m having a hard time believing Selma is even real. She seems almost cartoonish. Muslim women have never gotten half of anything- they get 4 months support only. They usually lose custody of their children. The divorce rate in Saudi is higher than the states. The Quran is not a science book and all the quotes praising Islam are evidence of nothing except a few opinions. Number of converts is irrelevant to accuracy of Islam. The majority of people have been wrong about many things.

    If Selma is indeed a real person she is not only ignorant of the west but also of Islam and Islamic societies. And she is doing Islam NO FAVOURS by ranting the way she does.

    Just my opinion. OMG. WHY??? I don’t even know what to say anymore. Some of us are normal. I promise. Ugh.

  71. Sandy

    Hey, I actually think you sorta normal. 🙂

  72. Well….sorta….:)

  73. Thought I throw in a little humor. 😉

  74. Aafke

    ‘You dont understand’ … You will inshaAllah.

    Why don’t you try and get in touch with the ones that have reverted and ask them your question. Id certainly like to. I didnt understand it too considering the propaganda about islam!

    And I can assure you, you have completely misunderstood the Quran from what you have written about virgins and i find it peculiar why non muslims only take an interest about ‘women’ when the most of the Quran is about morals,human rights, how to treat the elderly, charity (2.5% of your wealth must be paid to the poor) respect for others, love,humility,patience,knowledge…..

    In Janaah you get whatever you wish for- “Jannah is in the feet of your mother” These statements are not to be taken literally. What women will get or even men is incomprehensible.

    There is a creator for everything and every creator of something amazing deserves to be praised. Allah is the creator of the galaxies, skies, the oceans, the universe down to the atom and the tiny blood cells in our bodies and the salty and sweet sea that dont mix……..

    We are of the same, came from the same place and will go to the same place. He gave us life and will take our life as He has done since time began. He created us from nothing.

    MoQ – You’re just plain rude and don’t deserve a reply.

  75. Hi Sandy

  76. Hi Michelle! I was almost scared to come back and look here again!

  77. lol Theres some mean people on here. How are you finding KSA?

  78. Selma, do you want to provide evidence for your claim of “half of what your husband owns”, or do you want to take it back?

  79. It really is fine for me- in spite of itself!

  80. Elias, on February 25, 2012 at 6:59 pm said:
    @ All

    A simple question.. do you believe you are created and that there is a creator. Yes or No?

    =====================

    Alias,

    First, use your full name, tell us what you do and then I will answer you, that’s after I consult with my neighbors’ cat. http://www.cdhr.info

  81. Selma:

    Actually non-muslims have a lot more issues than just women with Islam and the koran. It is just that this one of the most egregious issues.

  82. @Selma,

    All we are doing is showing you that your knowledge about the religion you converted to is weak. And you are here lecturing us about it, when your knowledge about the religion is much less than what a 12 year old would know.

    Let me give you some examples:

    1) you do not even know the meaning of the name of your own religion
    2) you do not know that as a woman you do not get much in the case of divorce. Simple elementary info, but you argue with confidence for a position of complete ignorance of facts. Yet we are the rude ones?
    3) You assume others have not read or contemplated the things you share here.Yet you never asked about their background. What is rude is these assumptions, when others have likely thought about these things years before you even knew they existed. May be you should be the one thinking about how you disrespect others by just throwing assumptions about them only having superficial knowledge.
    4) you should consider how rude it is to assume your morals are higher than others, when you are not able to support any of your moral arguments.
    etc….

    Selma, you remind me of a blind squirrel who found a turd and claims it is a golden acorn 🙂

  83. SELMA: “Allah is the creator of the galaxies, skies, the oceans, the universe down to the atom and the tiny blood cells in our bodies and the salty and sweet sea that dont mix……..”

    Jewish Yahweh and Christian God and Hindu Bagwan, etc etc claim exacty the same. So what exacty is your point here????

  84. Hi Sandy

    Tell me about it. Where have you come over from? How long have you been here?

  85. Honest and Saima

    Try Dr Zakir Naik on “Islam, Hindu & Christianity” they dont claim the same as you have wrote. Im following Dr Zakir Naik and Ahmad Deedat.

    Salma – Its clear thats this is simply a ‘pick on the lone guy’ blog/forum. But I say that Women and men are treated good and bad in all cultures and in all parts of the world. I think you were referring to women who are unmarried and have this pressure of being skinny and who’s bodies are used for advertising and also the pay gap between men and women in the west. The number of women having 2 jobs – looking after the house and having to have a profession.

    I reverted a while back and have since been at so much peace. i myself had a string of girlfriends but thats normal when you dont have a religion its not frowned upon in that culture. the women don’t feel its ‘a big deal’ having had several boyfriends in the past. In fact if your’e 17 its kinda abnormal not to have a girlfriend / boyfriend. So by the time you’re 25-30 and ready to settle down you’ve had a ‘string’ of relationships. And then if a husband is unfaithful – no there is no punishment for that, doesn’t matter how many affairs he has. But in islam he would get punished of course.

  86. Adam99:

    The fact that you are following Dr. Zakir Naik says alot. Even a lot of muslims find what he states to be extremely controversial. Also reasons of self image on women or economic factors that women have to work doesn’t lay ground to institute a religion base that is intended to subjugate women and has all alone whereby she is forced from the public sphere and at the mercy of men with little regard for her specific needs or the right to be treat equitably. Believe me seperate doesn’t mean equal. Equal means the same access to having the right to exist in the same sphere of society. In other words your biological sexual function doesn’t rule either your intelluectual ability, physical abilities, curosity ability, exploratory abilities or any other abilities.

    There are numerous studies that state women are far happier with jobs then being stay at home moms. However, in the US there is a choice and that choice also extents to men. In other words, if a women is the bread earner and the man wants to stay home and be the homemaker then he can.

  87. To the Leaders – KSA (Even the Quran has acknowledged these leaders who are so called muslim)

    “Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?”
    Surah 2. Al-Baqara, Verse 44:

    “CHILL EVERYONE, HAVE A BIZZA & BEBSI”

  88. Selma used the ”revert” word!

  89. Adam99, I am perfectly happy to pick on you too. The use of the ”revert” word is enough to set me going.
    I challenge you, give me a good reason why I should convert from rational thought to the medieval madness of some primitive warlord form 1500 years ago.
    Especially as I am a woman and from what I know I am getting very little out of Islam compared to a man. Tell me what should make a free intelligent woman change her mind.

  90. Adam99, And what’s wrong about having girlfriends/boyfriends? Of course it is normal. It’s healthy. It’s natural.

    Where do you get the silly idea that nobody minds if a married man cheats on his wife? Of course people mind, everybody will feel sorry for the wife, and think the man is a pig, the wife will get a divorce, she will get the children, half his property and he still has to pay alimony.
    A marriage is a contract, if one of the partners chooses to break that contract, then the other party can do something about that.
    But the government does not get involved and starts torturing people who have relationships. That is sick. You cannot criminalize relationships, and/or sex. As long as it is not harmful you cannot criminalize sex.
    Only sex without consent should be criminal.
    I don’t understand why people are so obsessed with what other people do with their relationships. It’s really a bit sick.

    Now maybe the ”West” hasn’t got it right yet, but at least they have it worked out a lot better than the ancient writings of some primitive desert dwellers.

  91. Adam, I would be very curious to find actual court cases of husbands being punished for adultery in Islamic countries.

    In that vein, I think the punishment available to wives of cheating husbands is much greater in the West. Such as, “if I find out you’re cheating on me, I will divorce you, take away half of everything you own, and you’ll see your children perhaps on weekends only.” I’d settle for that, won’t you?

    Finally, I said it before and I’ll say it again: Pressure to be skinny is a good thing. Everyone should be thin and fit. Obesity and unfitness brings a host of diseases for the person and society at large. I have no problem stigmatizing fat because at the end, it’s as dangerous as cigarette smoke.

  92. Inter faith Dialogue can be only successful if muslims,Jews and Christians invent “NEW INTERFAITH TESTAMENT” which is suitable and acceptable for all people of the Book , religions and Others too.
    Otherwise its waste of time and befooling each other. We do not know the intention of KSA They might have the intention to divert the attention of the Globe from themselves.

  93. Taking a younger wife or should I say younger girlfriends (plural) happens ALL the time in non muslim countries ITS VERY COMMON-and it is not illegal – the woman does not get any justice for it.

    Where do you think the drama series get their ideas from.

  94. Dear Selma

    Your comments were much appreciated and I would love for you to write for my column of my new magazine. Please email me your details if you are interested.

    This may also interest you.

    http://www.presstv.ir/section/3510547.html

  95. Rachel, from somebody who actually lives in the West, just to make this clear to you: men taking younger ”girlfriends” and cheating on their wives is not at all common, and it is severely frowned upon.
    I don’t even know anybody in my family and acquaintance where a man cheated on his wife, or a woman cheated on her husband.

    As explained before: the wife would in the west get all the sympathy, as opposed to the Middle East where everybody would ask her what she did wrong to force her husband into cheating on her.
    I don’t know from which silly tv-series you get your ideas from, but I suspect you watch stuff like that American series ”desperate housewifes”? And you probably think that was a reality show. It wasn’t you know, some crazy script writers made that up. The crazier the more viewers. Trust me; not even reality shows show reality. Reality is that most couples are pretty faithful to each other.

    If you look for copy I would love to help you out with your column, I get the feeling that you and your column could benefit enormously from an injection of rationality and truth.

  96. Adam, I’ve noticed you didn’t take me up on my challenge?
    I suppose you know already you would fail big time.

  97. Selma, Elias, Adam99, Rachel69, Realtalk, its quite obvious to me you are probably the same person. You aren’t fooling anyone. If you need to hide behind multiple identities to make yourself feel better, try to vary your topics, vocabulary and style of punctuation. Pay gaps, unfaithful men, etc, keep cropping up, as well as the pathetic praising of Selma and generous use of hypens and either too many full stops or no full stops. So transparent!

  98. Anne, you are right, there are a large number of aliases here from the same address, they are now all in moderation.
    You are very clever to have noticed this, thank you for warning us.

    All, shadow accounts are not tolerated on American Bedu.
    If you have a valid reason for needing a shadow account you can write to Carol and ask her permission.

  99. Yeah for Anne 🙂 Good caught.

  100. The names are:
    Rachel69
    Kay
    Graig
    Adam99
    Michelle
    Selma

  101. This person is probably also ”Realtalk”.
    And he/she tried to get in under yet another name.

  102. Anne, I will have to watch out for you. You are a real Shylock, I mean Sherlock!

    If I ever develop extreme multiple personality disorder, I will do it elsewhere (On the other hand, why would I care if anybody agrees with me?). I can forgive the identify issue but you also have gender issues as well.

    Carol, isn’t it time for the “1 year anniversary of the Arab Spring” post? I believe I made a prediction and I may have aced it again. Damn I am good! Anne may be a sleuth but I am a prophet (note the indefinite article, lower case!).

    Serackayaigadamellema, if you, if all of you, “reverted”, then you should be killed because you obviously committed apostasy at some time. I wonder which one of you will step forward and take it like a man, women or whatever.

  103. I don’t know why people shouldn’t use multiple names. I think in the modern world people are free to do what ever they want unless they cause harm to any one. Even governments use propaganda on the Internet through multiple names. See for example:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

    Having said that I think using multiple names is not ethical if they were used in the same page. May be some time you forgot the old name and subscribe with new one and abandoned the old one and I think this is OK.

  104. I said ‘in the modern world’ and I meant people who call themselves modern world. and according to their standards.

  105. Using different names on forums like this is unethical, that’s why it’s forbidden on most sites and forums on the internet.
    We’ve had that happen before on Bedu, it will happen again. Luckily Ann caught him or her.
    It could be a ”him just as well; you have these men who like to pretend to be a woman and then proclaim how wonderful Islam and Saudi Arabia is for women.
    Or they pretend they are atheist, but they are clearly apologists.

    You are right it’s not ethical, but if you follow a 7th century bronze age warlord as if he’s a god, then I suppose we should not be surprised if your standards and ethics are a bit backwards as well.

  106. Anyone hear something new on Hamza?

  107. I know there was a lot of buzz- conservative trouble makers talking about a “cell” that was trying to introduce the youth to atheism- that he was connected to. They want to get all of them- and presumably execute all of them. I see this only in Arabic though not English. Overall it’s dying down. I suspect it was mis-represented to King Abdullah and others intitially which fueled the swift government action. I suspect they will drag it out and at some point “pardon” him. Just a guess.

  108. Witch hunt…
    ”The kingdom of Insanity”

  109. Like all prisoners of conscious, Hamza is incarcerated in isolation from the outside world, family and friends. One can only assume that under this system, Hamza is not being treated humanly; otherwise he would not be isolated and would have access to a lawyer or daily visits by his family and/or members of an independent civil society to make sure he is not being mistreat/tortured.

    Hamza is not forgotten because some of us work on his case every day. Participants in this discussion can keep the issue alive not only with Saudi authorities, but with the Malaysian bandits who arrested and sent Hamza back knowing he will be tortured in the hands of Saudi jailers.

    The Saudi Princesses and Princes should speak up publicly inside Saudi Arabia if they believe in humanizing their family’s and the Al-Ashaikh’s draconian policy as some of them royals tell American and European audiences in New York, Paris and London.

    As the proverb goes, what goes around comes around and the recent ignoble fate of Arab dictators is a glaring witness to this reality.

  110. I was curious. Believe me I have no intention of forgetting Hamza. I want to continue to bring his case up where ever and when ever I can.

    I suspect there are quite a few atheist in Saudi; they just keep it quite as there government and the conservatives are blood thristy tyrants in the throes of the Inquisition. Thier time will come though, of that I am sure.

  111. I think Sandy is right on the money.

  112. @All of You

    Please leave the Kingdom Alone. She is doing good job for others and for themselves. Why to corrupt their system.

  113. @Carol, thank you!

    @Sami, the kingdom is not doing a good job for themselves and others. Open your eyes.

  114. @ Sami:

    Your funny. However maybe if we corrupt a corrupt system then it will get better for the humanity inside the prison called Saudi that people just had the misfortune of being born into.

  115. @Bigstick1
    Actually we are born in a corrupt system and living in that system from such a long time that we do not now realise the definition of corruption.
    We are doing against the teachings of the Bible. This corrupton has entered in our mind and body that we think this the correct and best system, though its not.
    We have Gay system,Lesbian system, abortion system,sex before marriage system, night club system, drinking system,paedifile system,unjust system (socially) anti social behaviour system and what and what not, you name it.
    Whereever we do not find these systems we think they are wrong and they must have the same system.
    I do have much to say but you know best.

  116. Sami:

    Have you ever read the bible?

    If so then you would know that it is okay to rape, kill, beat, have slaves, sell your daughter into slavery for life, marry 3 years olds, bet, etc, etc etc.

    Here are just a few areas that you could look up:

    Numbers 31: 7-18
    Deuteromony 22:25-29
    ” ” 20:10-14
    17: 12
    Jeremiah 15:1-4
    Leviticus 25:44-46
    Exodus 21:7-11
    Proverbs 12:24
    19:18
    22:15
    23:13
    29:15
    Hebrew 12:6-7

    These are just a few wonderful passages of the bible. Slavery, murder, child beating, child and women raping legalized, etc. etc. etc.

    Don’t forget Yahweh has human failings:

    He can’t defeat iron chariots, likes betting with Satan (Job), doesn’t know where people are, limited on power, jealous, vengeful, contradictory, forgetful, etc.,. etc., etc.,

    Abortion isn’t outlawed either in the bible. Fundalmentalist try to stretch passages to cover this but it is never addressed however, God does sanction the killing of men, women, children, infants and animals. In addition, the only compensation that can be given in the death of an individual is for the actually individual not a fetus. Therefore, abortion is not a sin.

    However since my believe is that religion is a construct of man with a manmade hateful deity, I couldn’t give a flip about the morality of the bible since I deem it (the Bible/Koran) to have no moral compass.

  117. @bigstick

    Wonderful. This is your thinking not mine. Enjoy life.

  118. @Sami:

    Well to a point it is my thinking….. well, at least the last paragraph.

    However, the rest is just written in the bible. Apparently, you have not really ever read the bible. It is a great read for a dysfunctional mass murdering, torturing, clanish, brutal, sexually dysfunctional and enticing, deceptive,, delusional, divisive people also know as the chosen group( Us against Them).

    Just like a soap opera. Probably even written intially for that purpose anyway.

  119. I think it is Laylah that has a good post on the UN Declaration of Human Rights and Saudi Arabia. She goes down article by article, comparing the ideals to the reality of human rights in that country.

    Yet the SA king and ministers issue notices celebrating the Declaration, without even choking. But then what to expect from a monarch that promotes “Interfaith” cooperation and respect? Yeah right!

    Rather than “Kingdom of Contradiction”, it should be “kingdom of hypocrisy, lies and intolerance”. Even so, the kind and ruling family cannot take credit for all the injustice that happens. I would point my finger at every man and woman in the Muslim world, who let this happen. They are enablers, either active or passive.

    It goes beyond that, even. Take the mentality of converts from non-Muslim societies – people who should know better. Take some of our posters here, many of whom also have blogs – they may point out the contradictions in Arab and Muslim societies, yet seem to have no ability to apply reason to the theology or practice of their new religion beyond a weak “that is not the real Islam” excuse. Well excuse me, when and where is/was the “real Islam” they imagine ever practiced? I must have missed it in the history books.

    OH yes, as to interfaith cooperation, while I condemn the Saudi king for his hypocrisy, I reserve real scorn for the vile, self-serving priests, rabbis, pastors and monks who meet with him in Geneva and other places and who do not mention the obvious. The only decent, moral response to an invitation to these meetings would be something like this: “listen, all of you, you pieces of dry worthless sh!t, how dare you talk about cooperation, respect and tolerance when ignore the abuse, intolerance, and disrespect in your midst. How dare you eat, drink and hold hands with those that practice hate and violence. There is nothing to talk about until things change. Take your cooperation and shove it where the sun don’t shine!” followed by the sound of a door being slammed on the way out.

    Was that too strong? I am guessing I wont get invited to the next meeting!

  120. So asking again, anyone hear something new on Hamza?

    Also what about the new sri lanken witch that was arrested on April 18th? Saudi really showing itself as being in need of some real psychological assistance when they actually believe in witches. Talk about nut jobs.

    Anyway anyone hear anything?

  121. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/steadfast-in-pursuing-a-freer-saudi-arabia/2012/04/20/gIQAoAiUWT_story.html

    Opinions
    Our steadfast pursuit of a freer Saudi Arabia

    By Waleed Abu Alkhair, Published: April 20
    Waleed Abu Alkhair is a human rights activist in Saudi Arabia.
    Jiddah, Saudi Arabia

    Hamza Kashgari visited me several times before he wrote the ill-fated tweets that led to his arrest in February and then to solitary confinement in a Riyadh prison. We discussed social, political and philosophical issues, including some that are taboo in Saudi Arabia. I warned him that his thoughts, if expressed publicly, would lead religious hard-liners to call for his blood.

  122. Thank you, Dr. Ali, for sharing the excellent article. Looks like the “Kingdom” is just a notch below “Democratic” Peoples Republic of North Korea, in its’ suppression of human rights, freedom of thought and expression, liberties …. that we all take for granted in the west.

  123. Ali:

    Great article. I keep hoping for some type of news but I think he will set in jail for a few years before they let him out. Hope I am wrong though. I hope he leaves the country as soon as possible he is better off in a different country. Saudi is not a place for free thinking men or women.

  124. @ bigstick1—-Many years ago, I wrote a doctoral research: The Impact of Modernization on the Stability of the Saudi Monarchy. Based on my own personal transformation and on historical facts, I predicted that the autocratic and theocratic ruling men would eventually lose their total grip on power on people’s lives and thinking; consequently, they would panic and react with vengeance.

    This is what’s the Saudi ruling elitists are doing now. They are losing control over their people’s stomachs, souls and worst of all, their minds. As has been profusely documented in recent years and as we speak, the Saudi religious and political bandits as well as their businessmen and Western beneficiaries reacting with vengeance.

    There has never been a time in the history of Saudi Arabia where the majority of the Saudi people (not only the Shi’a as the system, its controlled media and Western apologists want us to believe) is more anti the system than they are now, albeit for different reasons.

    The Saudi people’s growing discontent has been exasperated by the unprecedented Arab uprising which will not stop at the Saudi fortified borders.

    There are millions of Hamza Kashgari, men and women, in Saudi Arabia and for the power yielding men unwillingness to admit that reality will only continue to increase instability until the country is plunged into a chaotic situation that will make what’s happening in Syria now look like a bad family feud.

    I hope am wrong too.

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