Saudi Arabia: Grand Mufti Calls for Destruction of Mid-East Churches

Sheik Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, spoke out that all churches in the Middle East region should be destroyed.  The Grand Mufti is the highest official of religious law in the Kingdom and head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Scholars.  As a result, when he speaks, his words carry weight and many listen and follow his teachings or orders.

According to the Grand Mufti, his words are simply echoing the words of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that only one religion is to exist in the Arabian Peninsula and that religion is Islam.

When you think about it, most other Arab states, unlike Saudi Arabia, do allow the presence of churches.

The Grand Mufti’s edict has already impacted on Egypt’s Coptic Christian community with mobs surrounding facilities known to practice Christian teachings.

It is going to be very interesting and telling whether the Grand Mufti will be directed by the King of Saudi Arabia to retract his words.  After all, the Grand Mufti’s words directly contradict King Abdullah’s programs for Interfaith Dialogues and peace.


116 Responses

  1. If there is one thing that King Abdullah will not tolerate is for any subordinate to contradict his wishes, policies and directives.
    I suspect one would have blistered ears when he calls the Grand Mufti to task.

    I suspect that the Israelis will reinforce security at the Dome of the Rock, lest someone loose in the head attempt a reprisal. :/

    Funny how I recall Medina was a Christian city that gave sanctuary to a certain prophet and his followers when things were lousy. THEN were permitted to retain their churches for many, many years. I guess he’s calling his prophet out for a lack of similar “diligence”!

  2. ”all churches in the Middle East region should be destroyed”

    This is a lie. He said in arab peninsula not middle east.

  3. It is a crazy thing to say at this time. Given the anti-Christian violence in Egypt (which is nothing new just amped up) and the Islamic turn to the so-called Arab Spring, he is pouring oil on the fire. Islam may have a tolerant side somewhere but there is no tolerant side among clerics.

    I am surprised that I have heard nothing from Christian clerics. Perhaps they are too fearful.

  4. This just goes to show you what political islam is all about, destruction, hatred, etc. Of course too me all religions have this faction but right now you have moron here and stupid hateful people who will follow blindly on the edicts of manmade backward hate religions to ensure that elitist such as himself or the few in power will benefit and the rest will be losers to suffer and die. Long live religion and their minions (NOT).

    Then this is also the stupid moron that sanctions child rape and other acts against humanity. The fact that he is still alive attest to the fact that God doesn’t exist at least not one I want to have anything to do with.

  5. Snowman:

    Oh that make his statement so much better. (NOT).

  6. Way to go Muffi. If life gets boring just kill someone. Hyeah right.

  7. He even looks evil. Ick!

  8. Yes, bigstick, that is WHY knowledge was protected by the Muslims in the middle ages, when the Catholic Church burned all books not being THEIR bible.
    Interesting how that heathen astrolabe was considered from the “devil borne heathen” to move to the sextant.

    Snowman: NOBODY IN THE WORLD considers the Levant and Arabian peninsula not the middle east, save YOUR revisionist geography!

    Jerry M, consider filtering by the prevailing “political”/religious party, then reconsider your remark.
    Frankly, it’s dog poo on rye bread. No matter HOW you slice it, it’s poop.

  9. Susanne430, given YOUR guidelines, *I* would be evil on a hung over morning or most other mornings.
    Is he EVIL or misguided in stance, based upon his considered texts, disregarding hadith?
    Or was Medina leveled after consolidation of Mecca?
    Hint: Nope, Medina REMAINED Christian, until FAR later. AS in grandchildren and great grandchildren did not remember otherwise.

  10. Wzrd1:

    That actually depends on whether you follow the text of the koran and hadith or if you actually follow historical evidence. Remember any substantial writings were written at least 80 to 100 years later on the koran. Then the ibn ishaq who wrote the life of Muhammad was 150 years after the fact. Note that work is gone. The next is Ibn Hirham I believe that is about 180 years after the fact or maybe a little more. Then you have the Hadith 150 to 300 years after the fact.

    Then there is the whole no original koran, unable to actually determine what a third of it states, the whole it could have been translated several thousand ways due to the variance of the type of writing, etc. Heck it wasn’t even finally codified to a set way of reading until the 9th century. Then you had all those scholars of the time object who later were forced to take back their objections. My do I see problems. But, hell no even with all that somehow it is the unaltered word of God. Give me a damn break.

    Some scholars state that Muhammad was actually meant to be one of the names of Jesus and that Islam twisted the text of Judiasm and Christianity. Many believe that Muhammad never existed but was later created and written backwards to a point in time. By the way, count me as one that believes this way.

    Yes, I agree the Roman Catholic Church was and at time is still a horror. However, that doesn’t excuse what is being sanction today. Islam has a damn bloody tyrannical history as well as you should recall. They are the ones who actually initiated many of the pushes that started the Crusades so by no means should you think they are not just as guilty.

    Should I even bring up the entire saga of African slaves and Islams role in that genocide? I think that opens up an entirely new realm, don’t you?

    Here is a question for you though, do you stand by his statement and if so why?

  11. According to a booklet that we were given the other day, prepared by the Islamic Affairs Department of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia in 1989, called Understanding Islam and the Muslims: “It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths …”. It’s a shame that what is stated to be believed is not followed through. Although my small university at home in the West provides a prayer room for Muslims (but not a chapel for Christians), as a Christian living here in KSA, I am not allowed to have a place of worship. There needs to be give and take on both sides.

  12. So Wzrd1, you think this is the right way to go? You think good for him, he’s following the hadith? You will be there to tear down other peoples places of worship?
    Just imagine if somebody somewhere else in the world would order all mosques to be burned down….

    This is of course not unusual for religions, they are always ready to destroy other religions places of worship, magic books, people etc.
    Most Muslims are still being killed by other Muslims, and mosques are being bombed by other Muslims, all in the name of the religion of peace….

    Religion is poison.

  13. What? Should the rest of the world destroy mosques?

  14. Oh please, wzrd1, stop being this guy’s and Islam’s apologist. Just because you liked living in the Middle East doesn’t mean there aren’t intolerable, bad Muslims out there. They may have been more tolerable back in Muhammad’s day. Doesn’t mean they are now…obviously or we wouldn’t be reading this post about destroying churches, would we?

  15. Desert Girl, Well, what do you think about such an order? Would you think that’s quite ok if somebody’s religious doctrine asks for such a measure? Or would you think that people from other religions should ignore such doctrine?
    What if the Church of the Jedi wants to drop a couple of bombs on the kaaba? Could be quite easily done. Would that be ok?

    If you are not ok with such actions and other people following such evil doctrines then maybe you should look at your own doctrine and make a conscious decision that this call is wrong. And that muslims all over the world should protest this call to wrongdoing.

    The only chance you have of keeping your Kaaba and mosques unmolested is if you let other peoples, from all other religions, keep their churches and temples and holy places.
    It is in everybody’s interest to allow freedom of religion and freedom to worship and freedom of thought and freedom to not believe in invisible sky daddies and magic books for that will keep you safe too, and give you the freedom to which ever religion you like, and have the house of worship for whatever religion you like

  16. This so-called ”Golden Age” of Islam was;
    a- 500 years ago
    b- was possible because religion wasn’t involved, and people could collect knowledge and pursue science. The so-called Islamic world at that time was quite secular
    c- this ”golden age” was finished the moment Islam became more dominant and more fundamentalist

  17. Consider the hysteria that besets whenever non-authoritative individuals offend Islam — for instance, a fringe, unknown pastor in Florida. Imagine what would happen if a Christian counterpart to the Grand Mufti, say the Pope, were to declare that all mosques in the Christendom must be destroyed.

    Imagine the nonstop media frenzy and beheadings that would erupt. All the shrill screams of “intolerance” and “bigotry”. Demands for apologies and resignations. Nonstop handwringing by sensitive politicians, and worse. And burnings and lootings in all the Stanistans!

  18. Wow! SOMEWHERE, I was totally unclear!
    I am NOT suggesting he is correct, indeed, that history proves him incorrect, at least per the Quran and multiple hadiths.

    Bigstick, when it comes to organized religions, there ain’t no saints and plenty of sinners. However, the crusades weren’t largely due to Muslim actions, but were more as a means to control excess royal populations, expand old lost empires and an attempt to control the spice route. Indeed, two crusades didn’t even bother with the “holy land”, but attacked Christian nations!
    The only thing I’ve noticed organized religions have a talent for is their remarkable talent for causing trouble, strife and violence.

    Frankly, as his words directly contradict his king’s wishes, if he doesn’t back down, I suspect he’ll be getting a one way helicopter ride out to the empty quarter.

  19. He’s an idiot and going to probably have a very uncomfortable talk with the king / royals .

    Best to ignore him.

  20. Actually we do not know what exactly the Grand Mufti’s intentions are? Unless we do know we have no right to comment.

    Moreover I believe that this Grand Mufti is respectable as we respect POPE Bendadict.

    We must trust these people and be patient.

  21. Regardless of titles these people are just men who unfortunately have been given a lot of power and by the term ‘men’ I mean the Pope, the head of the Anglican Church, this guy and whoever else seems to think he can dictate and run/ruin people’s lives.

  22. @sami – he said destruct something not belonging to him.

    who cares what his intentions are, he’s an idiot, if the pope said destroy mosques, or something not personally belonging to him ,he’s be an idiot too . simple.

  23. Sami, his is very clear, he wants destruction murder and mayhem. Talk about not insulting other people. It seems again and again that only Muslims are not to be insulted, but everybody else can go to hell. That’s his intention.

    You think you should trust these people? Why? I think you should trust yourself, and think for yourself and ignore these people, what ever their intentions, what they proclaim is wicked and evil, bound to cause the deaths of many innocent people and much suffering. If you cannot see that for yourself I am very sorry for you.

    Radhaa, nobody said the pope made the same kind of wicked evil speech, it was only put forward as an example, to help people feel some empathy for those of a different faith by making them see how they would feel about such a statement if came from another religion towards their own mosques. How they would feel about that.

    You know? Do not do onto another’s place of worship what you would not want to be done to your own place of worship.

  24. Aafke-Art, I saw no mention of murder and mayhem in the Mufti’s comment, only that he wished for the destruction of Christian churches, which you DO make a valid point-they’re not his to order destroyed. That such an effort would likely result in violence is a given though, as people of all faiths tend to wish to follow their faith and all too frequently will use violence to protect that right.

    I should correct one commenter here, there are TWO popes. One is the head of the Roman Catholic church, not the Anglican church, which has no pope, only an archbishop. The other is the Orthodox Catholic church, indeed, if my memory serves me correctly, he recently passed away.
    That said, not too many centuries ago, popes DID order religious structures destroyed and anyone not following their faith executed if they would not convert.

    Aafke-Art, I wholeheartedly support doing unto others as one wishes done unto him/herself. 😀

  25. I don’t believe that saudi king/royals are going to banish this mufti to the empty quarter or reprimand him in any way. Because the emperor has no balls!

    Remember the emperor issued a royal decree over five years ago allowing women to be able to drive, but the likes of this mufti never let it happen. I predict the most recent decree allowing women to vote in 2015 will meet the same fate.

    However reprehensible many of us may find Grand Mufti’s most recent pronouncement, he is islamically correct. This IS exactly what Islamic Canonical Law states: There are to be no non-Islamic houses of worship anywhere on the Arabian Peninsula. Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4366; Sahih Bukhari, Book #52, Hadith #288, Malik’s Muwatta, Book #45, Hadith #45.5.18

    As with many grand muftis before him, the Sheik based his proclamation on the famous traditions, or hadith (referenced above), wherein the prophet of Islam declared on his deathbed that “There are not to be two religions in the [Arabian] Peninsula,” which has always been interpreted to mean that only Islam can be practiced in the region.

    Now: Is this Grand Mufti a nasty “Islamophobe” for stating what the sharia states so clearly :)-

  26. Oh yes, wzrd, I am sure that the king just picked up the phone and ordered the Mufti’s head chopped off. More likely he congratulated him for upholding the “Islamic values”.

    How do you know the “king’s wishes”? I am sure that the king knows that non-Islamic worship is banned and he is fine with that. Stop making silly excuses

    Wzrd, The 1st crusade was the result of Muslim’s actions, forbidding access to Jerusalem for pilgrims. Of course it was also a political power play by the pope and all later crusades were a mess of idealism, plunder, hate and pure craziness. Also I think that a Muslim has little right to talk about Christian wars and expansion, unless he mentions Muslim wars and imperialism in the same sentence, starting with the 50+raids by your dear prophet on his neighbors, not to mention the dozen battles of which only 1 1/2 were defensive.

    .AA – ah the golden age of Islam. Take either Baghdad or andelusia, the usual golden era examples, and note that in both cases the contributions of non-Muslims were fundamental. It was when Islamic fundamentalism took hold that these civilizations declined (they got rid of the non-Muslims!). I would cite Ibn Rushd in Spain as an example of Islam, its golden era and what happened. The same is happening now as salafi islam takes hold.

    Also, another thing about the golden age discussion that Muslims overlook… May I point out that Arabia, the heart and soul of Islam, is about as barren as it gets when it comes to art, science and other intellectual pursuits. For Islam to have had a golden age, it had to get away from the center of Islam and mingle with those horrible unbelievers.

    The mufti is really not the problem. The real problem is the everyday, nomal, average muslim that lets this happen everywhere islam dominates.

    Let me see now… It has been 1 week, 7 days, 168+ hours and the Grand Muffin still has a job. I guess his ears aint blisterin yet.

    Come on now… Did anybody really think a Muslim cleric would be disciplined for saying bad things or urging violence against non-Muslims!!!!! In case you don’t know, this is the kind of guy that would kill about half the people that have posted above, if he could. And Sami wants us to respect and trust this piece of merda.

  27. Sami:

    I have no respect for the Pope only contempt that goes for this moron as well.

  28. @wzrd1

    If you are talking about an Orthodox Pope, there isn’t one, there is a Coptic Pope (of course that seat is currently vacant), but that Pope doesn’t rule anything other than the Egyptian Coptic church.

  29. kactuz, funny how you claim that I’m muslim, as I am far from that. The closest one can come to my personal faith is that I’m a deist.
    As for knowledge of the Saudi king’s wishes, he DOES make statements and I have friends who live there and keep me updated.
    You should calm down when posting, as you said that the cleric ran off at the mouth one week and one week ago, then went into hours that add to another week. He made his statement on 16-March, the last time I checked, 19-16 is not three weeks nor even one week. So, in your hate filled world, one day equals a week or something!
    I DO find it fascinating that you pay such close attention to a blog site of an expat on experiences in Saudi. Especially someone who worked for the company!

    Jerry M, thank you for that correction. It appears that my memory didn’t serve me correctly. :/

  30. There have always been churches on the Arabian Peninsula- how do they not know this? So these guys are idiots.

    And people wonder why I don’t respect scholars? There it is.

  31. @Bigstick

    Please do not trust these articles. This appears to be a rumour spreaded by mischief mongers on the earth. There is no reality and no truth.
    So no comments.

  32. Best not to go overboard on speculation. We do not need this on this blog. It’s not our blog..remember?

    As we become more global, seems like various groups become…more afraid.

  33. @Sami,
    I think what you say has some validity. There are probably lots of bad stuff that goes on covertly, so we need to use discernment. However, if it were mischief makers, wouldn’t there have been an immediate announcement by the “powers that be” that this statement was false?

  34. Kristine, not always. If one makes an immediate announcement, one gives some validity to the speaker beyond what would normally be given. Add to that, it removes the ability to quietly handle things behind the scenes, away from the public eye. That way, nobody loses face in the public eye.

  35. I haven’t found anything contradicting it yet but a whole lot of people making the rounds making statements that this is what he stated. However, this is the same moron that cried (drama queen) like a baby over the insult to the prophet to have Hamza imprisoned. This is the same moron that stated that marrying infants were okay and consummating them upon puberty was okay.

    So just based upon this nimwades prior statements. His riduculous behavior (drama queen) and his well known disposition to be a backward, sexist, holier than now, deceptive, idoit. I have come to the conclusion that the idiot stated it and have no doubts that he would stand by his statement based upon fairytale hadith and demented, hateful, narrow outlook on life.

    I judge him a vile piece of dung who I have even less respect than the unholy pedo hiddng, lying, sexist, backward, idoit, the Pope.

    There you go my contributions to the discussion of unholy hypocrits.

  36. Littlest stick of the sunken fleet, as used for reefs, I’ll HAPPILY accept the label of hypocrite. Any day of the century, as you’d not recognize less than that or more.
    SO, the recognition of a bride is unacceptable if said bride is a child of TODAY’S value.
    So be it.
    Per YOUR insane rant.
    Screw past views, screw present and advancing views. SATAN WAS RIGHT!
    Bowing upon mere humans was OBSCENE.
    Hence, per YOUR view, SATAN IS AND WAS RIGHT.
    We ALL and along the way, “God” is wrong.
    OK, no problem. We’ll release equality amongst the multiverse. I’ll make a hell of a light show. Then, NO life, no death. Only nothinglessness.
    By YOUR command.

  37. W, you are much too kind, even for a Jeffersonian deist. As to the math, I read that the Muffin had this case of verbal diarrhea on the 12th, even if reported on the 17th, hence 19-12 = 7.

    As to my hate filled world, it is your world, too. I just don’t take merda from anyone, nor do I make excuses for evil or bad behavior, mine or anyone elses. If I offended you, I am sorry.

    As I said, this man is dangerous but it is not just him. There are hundreds of millions of people that would agree with this man. Whatever his faults, he is not responsible for the hate and repression of non-Muslims thoroughtout the Islamic world – it is the average Joe and Jane Muslim that make this intolerance possible. They accept the evil that islam teaches and they don’t speak up. The Muffin is an old fart and my guess is that he has said things like this all his life without any major problems. Who is to contradict the Grand Muffin, the highest authority on all things sacred????

    As I said, this is the kind of guy that has people killed because they disrespect his vile ideology.

    But one observation is correct…. Is this true? I think it is… So why isn’t it in Reuters, the NYtimes, the Guardian and Economist? Is it because it is not true or because it doesn’t fit the elite narrative about the religion of peace – and lets all sing kumbayah.

    As to your “Littlest stick of the sunken fleet” prose, nao entendi nada. Ta’ louco, rapaz? ta’ bebedo?

    You take care, Mr Wzrd. I am not mad at you, W, because you seem to know history. Anybody that has a gasp of history is fine in my book. Anyway the wife is in China and I’m going to bed. She will probably call me at 2 Am to ask if I got the tickets to Brasil for her. Nope. We live and we die, and we do what we can.

  38. The grand mufti has abundantly proven that he is a very wicked evil nasty old man.
    And as we have seen a very bad actor as well.
    If Satan does exist the mufti is his one of his minions. This man works for Satan not for some nice loving god.

    And forget about the middle East, they will be inspired in Malaysia and Africa too to step up the church burnings, wherever Muslims are not a small minority there will now be followers who think they have a divine mandate to go and burn churches and of course if there are some Christians in the way to kill them. And Christians are ”people of the book”..
    We already know what otherwise seemingly liberal open minded Muslims think of anybody from other faiths or who do not believe in unproven invisible sky daddies: those people are not human, they are ”breathing machines”. They can be wiped of the face of the Earth because they are not even a living animal.

  39. Wzrd1:

    Seriously you go off on these strange mental trips into the goofy world of LA LA.

    Last time after you went off on a long and strange rant, I just said, “okay.”

    This time I will just state, “ARE YOU LUCID?” Seriously, what?

    The only thing I can construct from your statement is that you know what “GOD” thinks and wants.

    What gets me with all these people who follow make believe and their make believe God is that this God was made by a group of men/women who were a primitive group and then later generations took it and created religion out of their primative backward belief.

    Ask yourself what qualities does God have? The same qualities as man. Jealous, scared of other Gods (which then says he is not THE GOD), selects on a few chose, likes slavery, likes stupidity, likes illerates, likes people poor (Great for those who are rich to control), likes blind devotion to accept all atrocities without question such as murdering of men, women, children, babies and the unborn, ……oh also animals. Just because. You know how those wicked children, babies and unborn are. Likes betting. Cannot remember what he stated from one segment to another (dementia). Oh but wait new revelation that flies in the face of the last know statement but all is right in the world as he the prophet of GOD (however he is the only one that hears and sees him) figured it out. God picks men who can be easily fooled, has the morals of well a sub-human as even animals had better morals than at least a few known prophets, has issues defeat iron chariots, lies,goes back on his word, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ………..

    Oh my this pathetic example is God. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

    It is a manmade construct to enslave people into believing in a book made being of hate. A omnipetent being that created the earth and everything else (UNIVERSE) would not give a rat ass over clothing, foreskin removal, rituals or anything else so stupid and trival. However man damn well cares as these are devices used to control man.

    GOD of the holy books are a evil upon the world as far as I am concerned. The God of the Bible/Islam represents demented power hungry hateful warp men that intended to have people worship them and follow their every move.

    This idiot who calls himself a cleric is dung and is spewing dung.

  40. There is no truth in this statement of Grand Mufti. Had it been true Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury must have reacted. No reaction from Christian Community,no truth.
    It appears to be the work of mischief mongers on the earth.

  41. @sami – just because people didn’t protest, randomly kill or get offended doesn’t make this a rumor, major outlets report this incl a few from that part of the world.

    Next time someone talks of burning the koran or some perciever or real insult to the prophets, muslims the world over cna take a page out of this and use it as an example of good behavior.

    ignore the dimwits and they fade away.

  42. There is no truth .. This is a lie.

  43. Is the grand Mufti a nut , did he never read Qora’an , has he ever heard La ekraha fiddeen , I do not believe he can be so ignorant that he never heard the event of Mobahila of Najraan . La haul wala quowwat . If it is implemented , it amounts to creating fitnah . Well if it is the grand Mufti, who is suppose to be a learned man one can guess how will be others , mostly ignorant even if schooled .

  44. “Had it been true Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury must have reacted. No reaction from Christian Community,no truth”

    OR the Pope and the Archbishop didn’t want to get beheaded or killed by true blue muslims of the religion of peace :)-

  45. Isn’t the über mufti the über mufti because he comes from the right family and has the right connections? I thought I read somewhere that only blokes from one school of islam can become the über mufti, and it’s sort of hereditary And kept in a certain family?

    Sami, that’s why the developed world is the developed world, and your part are the barbarians.

  46. bigstick, you really should look up the term deist, as you seem to confuse such beliefs with organized religion.
    One need not believe in a religious system or cultural system to learn about it in detail. Such details can be quite important in certain occupations.

    Zaheer, one cannot agree more. I’ve long noted, the fitnah is flying, in many, many quarters. :/

    Honest Abe, like anyone could approach EITHER leader to cause harm! The pope is guarded as tightly as the president. The archbishop, similarly guarded.
    Interestingly enough, history has shown the greatest danger to a religious leader isn’t from people from other faiths, but from people of their own faith. Go figure!

  47. There are some muslim people who get offended when they see churches are built in their country. Because when they see around them they see horrific crimes committed by christian nations especially US/UK/Nato). For instance, when they remember white phosphor in Fallujah and bombing of Baghdad and supporting Israel by America in bombing Gaza and the list go on. all these crimes make some people offended when they know about churches. The problem is that they don’t differentiate between normal christian and christian who are true evil such as the soldiers who kill children or the ruler who issue the order to kill muslims. I think those muslims need more education, but I also believe the religious community (Pastors/popes/archbishops etc.) should rise their voice against the crime committed by their government and distance themselves from their government when the government is doing wrong. The problem when you try to convince muslims about the different between the religious community and their government and they see the some religious people leading the soldiers in the battlefield.

  48. @ snowman – govt kill fro money, power, and whatnot , even religion at times and that justifies destroying property not your own?

    i cannot even in my wildest imagination connect these 2. so by blowing up a few churches the bombings in gaza will stop? really? please don’t insult muslims by saying this, you make them sound like an ignorant idiotic lot.

    this mufti fella is a moron, simple as that, and not peaceful law abiding looking for peace either i assume.

    sorry i’m ranting cause a educated collegue gave me a similar explanation – apparently the sight of maimed palestine kids pains her, so she’ ok with removing churches. so mained syrian kids are ok? how about maimed egyptian kids? because syria’s govt is blowing up muslims do you retaliate by blowing up mosques? no why not?

    I’ve worked in many a place in many cond and i have to say we are th eonly species that takes great pleaseure in inflicting harm on our kind, we’re one blood thirsty lot. for what power/money? i see the destruction inflicted on human body and if there’s a god – i hope he stops procreation, we as a species don’t deserve kids .

    what we need is ghandhi cloned – especially the middle east – cloned many times over.

  49. Snowman:

    The same could be said about muslims and their government. By the way the USA is not a christian government and in fact I am not aware of any actually western theocracy.

    Of course you could thank the Saudi government and it’s foot soldiers for the intiation of the Aghanistan war and of course they had such a wonder life under the rule of the extension that is Saudi conservatives the Taliban/Al-Qaeda. Then their is there support for Al Shabob the atocities there from muslims and Saudi support is great. The list continues. How do you like this pissing game. Are we getting anywhere yet?

  50. Wzrd1:

    Deist definition: belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

    In other words, if God exists it doesn’t give a rat’s ass.

    Note. I already stated that.

  51. bigstick, Saudi clerics were literally run out of Afghanistan when they went there to educate the rural leaders. Literacy in Afghanistan is quite low, out in the mountains, so they went to the villages to teach literacy (in order to read the Quran) and what was actually written.
    That, of course, threatened the illiterate leaders, who made threats against their lives.
    That was from US government reports and open source reporting from after the Russian-Afghan war ended and the Taliban rose to power.
    I can also tell you, from first hand experience, about Afghans in those remote areas had no clue why we were in the country, other than what they were told by the Taliban. They were shocked and angered when they learned about the World Trade Center attacks and the 3000 deaths of men, women and children.
    Because, THEN they understood the blood debt owed by Al Qaeda and those who protected them.
    Not that most wanted to get involved, which is typical anywhere in the world. MOST people want to get up in the morning, eat, go to work, come home, eat, play with the kids, go to bed, rinse and repeat. Hence, they don’t want to get involved in such things at all.
    Only a small minority would ever get involved in either side.
    That said, a minority among a population of millions still comes out to be a hell of a lot of people.

  52. bigstick, that god may or may not care about what goes on, but perhaps, said god leaves it up to the population of the universe to decide how to live.
    Think of it this way, if you could create a universe, would YOU micromanage it?
    Einstein was a deist and wrote a bit on the topic, though largely he reflected the beliefs of other philosophers.

  53. The US is not a Christian country. The US military has Christians, Jews, Atheists, Buddists etc. And it has Muslims in it.

    Some of the Syrians and Egyptians being killed are Christian.

    I don’t agree with a lot of US foreign policy- especially in the Mid East- but if the US pulled out and Israel dissapearred Muslims would still be kiling Muslims- because the US and Israel are not the Muslims worlds biggest problems.

  54. Aafake-Art, you are right. Developed world is killer and blood sucker but under developed are barbarian. What is the difference? You r wise , you know.

  55. The statement of Grand Mufti is not true as presented. This is the work of miscief mongers.

  56. @Radha Ji
    No protest means nothing wrong what is said. Christian Community knows that Grand Muft can not be wrong.

    You are neither jew nor christian. You are safe.

  57. Sami, I am happy to explain; Civilized people do not run around screaming, whining, burning, destroying and murdering innocent people when somebody somewhere burns a magic book or draws a cartoon.
    Or when some senile old goat thinks he needs to stir up some violence and murder by telling the sheeple to destroy other peoples properties, places of worship etc.

    Backward, uncivilized, primitive barbarians do.

    Got it?
    You know of course which group of people on this planet behaves like deranged maniacs? For example going all berserk because one student tweets his thoughts about an ancient warlord?
    This is not civilized behavior you know?
    It really isn’t.

    You want to be regarded as a decent civilized religion? Then start acting like it!

  58. Sami, yes, Radhaa is not from ”the book” (the magic book) she is only a breathing machine. And yes, luckily she is safe, because she lives in a country where there is freedom of religion. And from religion.
    A woman like Radhaa is worth 10.000 senile evil old men like the über mufti.

  59. Conjuring The Ghost of Grand Cardinal Richelieu ….

    Here is the gist of the above-referenced article:

    “Everyone is killing each other in Syria and some other places in the region, and the conflict might spread. What should we do about it?”

    “How much does this cost you?”

    “Nothing at all,” I answered.

    “Then let them kill each other as long as possible, which is to say for 30 years or so. Do you know,” the ghastly Cardinal continued, “why really interesting wars last for only 30 years or so? That has been true from the Peloponnesian War to my own century:

    First THEY kill the fathers, then THEY kill their sons. Then, there aren’t usually enough men left for a third iteration.”

  60. Aafke-Art, so you are saying that the US is uncivilized barbarians when mosques are burned, churches are firebombed, abortion clinics are bombed and physicians from those clinics are bombed or shot dead in their own homes?
    Indeed, there were religious riots involving thousands in many US cities less than a century ago.

    In short, your definition can be applied anywhere on the globe, whilst ignoring the fact that 99.5% or so of the global populace (or national or even regional populace) don’t give a tinker’s damn about performing any violent act and even roundly condemning such acts.

    I’ve worked with quite a few intelligence types during my military career. I could always tell the officer that would be an abysmal failure immediately.
    That would be the officer that viewed the locals as barbarians or uncivilized. His or her attitude could be read by the locals, hence their unwillingness to help someone who judged them before meeting them.
    Perhaps you should ask our admin here about such things, as she is conversant in such topics, though I suspect she wasn’t involved in direct intelligence collection.

  61. Interesting story, Honest Abe. Though, I rather disagree.
    The three Punic wars were quite notable and rather short.
    The Pyrrhic war was quite notable as well, indeed, it spurred the term “Pyrrhic victory” as a common idiom in military, historical and government circles.
    There are dozens of wars of historical note that were brief.
    Indeed, long lasting wars are the ones that have spread far further than their initial zone of conflict.

    Of course, I DO remember a science fiction/fantasy program once. I think it was The Outer Limits.
    The man in the story was given wishes, which would be instantly fulfilled. His last wish was peace on Earth. His wish was granted and he was alone on the Earth.

  62. wzrd, I think the US definitely has too many religious maniacs, which ensures the US holds the lowest rank in several departments in the list of civilized countries, however, the US also has the best secular, segregation of church and state constitution in the world which saves you all from going completely down the drain.

    And you can sink a lot deeper, like Saudi Arabia, where a mild tweet can get you executed, or a claim that you are a witch. How much more medieval and barbaric can you get? I’m not even speaking about the legal enslavement of 50% of their population.

  63. Sandy
    ‘The US is not a Christian country’

    I know this issue is not related to the subject of this article which is about the mufti, but I always think about the statement you wrote, some time confused, for instance when watching this video:

    The man who is talking not a normal person, he was one step from becoming a president.

  64. Aafke-Art

    The real enslavement in De wallen and similar areas. You should focus your effort in liberating those hostages first then help arabian women.

  65. Aafke-Art, I consider the US first priority is to untangle the government from various special interests and religious interests. THEN, improve the US record on human rights and abuses (should we even BOTHER discussing the abominable law that states that ANYONE, including US citizens can be held indefinitely without charge, on the mere accusation of terrorism?).
    The US has a rather poor record in human rights, within my own living memory of a half century. I grew up during the civil rights movement, protests and abuses by the police. I’ve WATCHED race demonstrations that marched knowing that they’d be beaten soon by the police.
    To see the US start to shine, then sink after a couple of attacks and a neo-McCarthyism arise, this time, not against communism, but instead rejecting our very first amendment AND find an atmosphere of denouncement the rule.
    To hear with my own two, barely functioning, ears, the words that the US is a Christian nation spoken by those who pretend to lead us. To hear those words spoken by others who wish to lead us AND hear loud applause!
    I’m quite strict in constitutional terms in certain areas. Human rights is number one in my book.
    Because, I came home after 5 years of this war, to find the United States turning into the Fascist States of America!
    We ALL can do SO much better!

  66. @wzrd – you are right but….
    having lived in india, saudi, Uk and US , married to a muslim when i’m not , it’s my personal opinion that for us as a family and for me as a woman and human US was and is the best place to be.

    the other 3 rate very poorly when compared according to my experiences and i’m usually considered the non-argumentative, non-controversial, mind my own business, involved in my profession, deitist/agnostic type live peacefully with others type of person.

    Again none of the places were bad, but where my rights were concerned it was trampled on the least in US and the most in saudi.

  67. Wzrd1:

    You know, so many points are lost on you. You really don’t get the message often.

    We agree on something on the point that religion is manmade. Humanity does tend to make it own rules. Now if more people will understand that and ditch religion we all be better off or at least on a different path that could possibly bring a better future.


    There is a reason that he didn’t become president that is but one. The current nut jobs in this presidential elections running for the Republican Party doesn’t even stand a chance due to the religous issue. Mainstream American doesn’t want it.

  68. bigstick1, you miss all messages. You only see YOUR message and your message alone.

    You missed a hint at my former occupation, which I have retired from two years ago. An occupation where I was in VERY close contact with the people of whom you speak of. And when I say close, as in dining with them, killing some, discouraging others and overall not being a very flexible person in certain areas. Even more to the point, I’ve lost 27 men during that career. I didn’t bother being foolish enough to count the other side of the week’s losses, for then, I’d lose focus on RIGHT NOW.
    I’m the nicest guy in the world until one becomes a threat. THEN, life rapidly becomes unsurvivable for the threat.

    WE DO agree on religion being man made. The math tends to support deist views, but then, I’m open to discussion.
    I’ll NOT discard prophesy overall, not as a god given message, but possible other physics that aren’t apparent today, due to personal experience and “that feeling” that something is awry. It kept me alive for many decades.
    BUT STILL, you insist on the current fascist regime’s (or attempted so) tactic of demeaning, rather than accepting differences and discussing them and accepting common ground.
    In the latter, I and my teams were HIGHLY successful. To the point of a General coming up with the hearts and minds thing.

    We can agree to disagree on some things. Indeed, that is the essence of communication. But, when you take a “superior view”, you fail essentially forever, lest you change.
    May I suggest a study on transactional analysis?
    And no, I was NOT PsyOps. I’m just REALLY good at it. Along with other, rather unpleasant things and many more pleasant things.
    My PREFERENCE is to cook a meal or make something, then accept criticism on improvements, then implement them in (hopefully) better ways.
    Meanwhile, I’m a rather successful network security guy, with certain other experiences.
    But then, I’ve reinvented my own career five times in as many decades.
    As the first two don’t really count, I’d suggest that, as ALL of the careers were lucrative and successful AND I was regarded by my peers as a SME, you should give greater respect to my “rants” or whateverinhell you called my comments.

  69. Radhaa, I’d suggest other nations.
    My PERSONAL preference is for New Zealand. A target of choice for my final retirement…
    Australia is too busy trying to be a slightly different US, with no common ground, hence the eventual failure.
    India is still developing, after massive damage from England.
    We’ll not go INTO the middle east, as THAT is so tangled as to be an episode of Doctor Who in tangled histories!
    England is so butchered, culturally, that it doesn’t know WHAT it is. Hence, your unfortunate experience, along with prevailing trends, of which Nineteen Eighty Four was written against. It remains as true today as back when it was written. :/
    The US… Note my mention of mosques burned to the ground. It gets uglier, but a quick open source search would give you background.
    It’s because of ME and others like me who ENFORCE religious freedom, lest militant others enforce THEIR views upon a nation, as has been done in the past. For most of US history, the US was a WASP nation, politically and religiously. Indeed, I recall well discussions over a Catholic President.
    Canada is OK, if you like rather cold winters. As I HATE cold, I’d go to more temperate climates.

    Meanwhile, if you want further background on US policy on democracy, may I suggest a CIA operation called Operation Ajax?
    If you can get more un-American than THAT, please inform me.

  70. America is not a Christian nation, it never was. It’s constitution forbids any mingling between state and religion.
    Any other claim is untrue.

    But this is all very much off topic. What we see everywhere in the world is that religion and religious leaders cause untold harm and suffering. Religion is either the cause or is used to support conflicts and murder.
    The über mufti of Saudi Arabia is a prime example, but he is not the only one. If you insist of linking this to a discussion about America, yes, there are currently a lot of very nasty religious factions trying to whittle away at the constitution, while implementing a lot of inhuman laws all over the place. Religion is poison. If they were to succeed American Muslims should be prepared to have their mosques demolished.

    Of course the first obsession of these religious nutters is their hate against women. Wherever an Abrahamic religion starts to really blossom women are the first target. You see it again and again.

    All countries based on firmly secular values, and with preferably a majority of atheists will always be the best places to live for everybody.

  71. @Snowman,
    In the US you are allowed to think whatever you want. BUT by law there is separation between church and state- and even a President couldn’t change that if he tried.

    Absolutely correct, for women US is much more beneficial for women than Saudi.

  72. Wzrd1:

    Yes you missed the point of the previous statement it was in reference the it being a pissing gaming. Just like what you are having with me a pissing game.

    You state your career is military but you state you have had numerous others. What does this tell me? That you have some stabilitiy issues or maybe some maturity issues. Even your long explanation of virually nothing is all over the place, random and disconnected. In other words, you are a waste of my time trying to communciation with you.

  73. @wzrd1 –

    Thanks, maybe we’ll consider new zealand 🙂 most likely we’ll retire in india , since that’s where family is and that’s where we have long term professional plans .
    I know the US does a lot of thngs not to be proud of and i thank those who try to keep freedom in and secure.
    but i’m more concerned with my rights and freedoms an being law abiding and not very radical US seems to suit us a lot, especially the oppurtunities part.

    India is beyond corrupt , not that i don’t love that place, it’s home, but try openng a business there or like us opening a medicla facility in the dream of helping some people and you’ll have to grease more palms than there are stars int he sky. and try this being a woman 🙂

    Anyway all cuntries have their flaws. but i stand by my experiences and say I’d rate US higher than the other 3 any day.

    I’ve heard netherlands etc., is much better, unless someone wants to hire methere i have no way of finding out 🙂

  74. Oh, I would get you a job in the Netherlands asap if I wasn’t moving to America myself, and I am much to selfish to help you move to the Netherlands when I am going the other way… 😈

  75. @Aafke

    “America is not a Christian nation, it never was. It’s constitution forbids any mingling between state and religion.
    Any other claim is untrue.”

    At the Federal level that is true but at a state and local level it was certainly not true in the 18th and 19th century. Many states did have clauses in their constitutions preferring Protestant Christianity. Here is one from NJ’s constitution on 1776 (written before the US constitution and only superseded in 1844):

    “XIX. That there shall be no establishment of any one
    religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and
    that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the
    enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious
    principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith
    of any Protestant sect, who shall demean themselves peaceably
    under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of
    being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a
    member of either branch of the Legislature, and shall fully and
    freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others their
    fellow subjects.”

    So in NJ at least Catholics and Jews could be legally discriminated against. The ending of a preference for Christianity or Protestant Christianity took generations and it was only the Supreme Court decision about school prayer that ended this and that was only in the 1960’s.


  76. Sandy, I hope you are right about the upcoming election. Right now it is darned scary to think of about any Republican candidate getting in.

    As far as separation of church and state … it’s a big claim but I don’t totally buy it.

  77. @Wendy me too. A President couldn’t just change the law- but he might get away with some abuse of it. I sure hope it doesn’t come to that.

  78. Sometimes I just despair at the way in which some religious clerics, Muslim, Christian and Jewish can take holy scripture and the words of their prophets and use them for the purposes of inciting hatred and division instead of love and respect among the children of Allah.

    It is said that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) gave a decree about Christians at the monastery of St. Catherine in Mount Sinai Egypt, one wonders if the Grand Mufti knows of this text and if so has he chosen to ignore the words of his Prophet (pbuh)? The kindness of the Prophet (pbuh) and his strict words on the protection of Churches is in marked contrast to that of the Grand Mufti.

    No words of any religious scolar can speak better in the defence of Christians than these words!

    In part the statement of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) reads;

    “This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

    No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

    No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

    No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

    Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

  79. Harry, why don’t you read all your texts instead of pulling verses that you like and ignoring others.

    You dear prophet attacked his neighbors dozens of times, without provocation, often by surprise. Yes, he accepted the protection and help of Christians when he was weak. Later, he ordered their expulsion from Arabia, along with the jews (so the Grand Muffin is just doing what your prophet said) – a rather strange way of thanking the christians for their charity. Note also that the apostasy laws used against non-Muslims come from the words of your prophet “Kill those who change their (islamic) religion”.

    It never ceases to amaze me how a Muslim can quote a verse or two or mention one incident and pretend that resolves everything – and do nothing about the hate, persecution, violence and discrimination that exists everywhere in the Islamic world.

    Let me very clear: Christians never have had equality with Muslims under Islam. Period. At times Muslims were more tolerant (or less intolerant) than Christians, but at no time was there the respect supposedly required in your quote, not 1300 years ago, much less today. If you want an idea of how Muslims treat/treated others I suggest you read the Rambam’s “Letter to the jews of Yemen”.
    SO, Harry, instead of wasting time here with us infidels, why don’t you go to mosques and tell them about how tolerant Islam is (or should be?

  80. kactuz, I’ve given up on bicgstick1, as a lost cause.
    YOU, however, have sounded off on a SINGULAR side of a multisided argument.
    That is foolish in the extreme, as it INVITES religious warfare, as one side is repressed and other sides are not.
    Did you not pay attention to a previous post of mine about religious warfare in US streets, LITERALLY?
    It took the US army, artillery and infantry with fixed bayonets to stop the warfare here in the US!

    Frankly, YOU And bigstick make me wish for destruction of the ENTIRE planet and ALL of the populace, as YOU and bigstick INSIST on continued warfare, destruction, destruction and ENFORCED DOMINANCE.
    CAN we find a middle ground? I respectfully suggest the US as one “prime mover” as a suggestion, where ALL can co-exist.
    I suggest extinction as a failed example, as any who is repressed would seek thermonuclear arms, which are NOT THAT complicated, then consider seeding with a certain cobalt isotope.

    In my old neighborhood in SW Philadelphia, a score of churches “went out of business” and went up for sale.
    MY neighborhood was rather peaceful, as some rather unpleasant Sicilian came out rather well armed, both ordinance wise and tactically. We’ll simply suggest that said unlawful persons sought easier grounds to ply their, erm, trades.
    Of note, only TWO scofflaws required hospital care, one of which was gnawed upon by my dog.
    The neighborhood is noteworthy for its history of being rather coarse in nature, in the 1960’s and 1970’s, it was FAR from rare to find someone in a park with their needle in their arm and dead.
    We had race demonstrations walk through our neighborhood, to be rather badly abused soon after.
    We had all manner of OTHER miscreants misbehave.
    Then, *I* bought a house that I could afford on my pay, to protect my family.
    I KNEW about the neighborhood and its trends. FAR in advance.
    I applied what I was trained in, to good use. Community involvement continues to this very day, to a lesser degree. They currently lack a certain, erm, “give them an offer they cannot refuse” person, as I’m caring for my elderly father.
    I’m the nicest guy in the world with someone who is not a threat.
    For a threat, they’d rather face the devil AND god.
    For, both formers are reasonable. When forced to violence, there is me, then, the wrath of God.
    Because, I and my teams never even KNEW whatinhell the box frigging looked like.
    Our missions were WAY beyond whateverinhell that box was.
    Most of us are still alive.
    Though, I’ll admit that I’ve buried 27 damned fine men over the years.
    Which I’d FAR prefer to have avoided. But, nations are nations and nations do what nations do.
    Which is BY FAR, unreported.

  81. Reply to comment posted March 22nd 2012 by kactuz

    Dear Kactuz

    You write; “It never ceases to amaze me how a Muslim can quote a verse or two or mention one incident and pretend that resolves everything”

    Surprised as you may be I am a follower Nabii Issa. Yes that’s right I am a Christian, perhaps because I respectfully mentioned the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) you have automatically assumed I am a Muslin and that I have cherry picked a piece of text that suits my needs. I chose a piece of text which if adhered to would assist in building peace and harmony between Christian and Muslim in the Middle-East. Rather than criticise me for that you should help to promote that ideal. I live in a place where for centuries one Christian denomination persecuted and destroyed another. My country is covered in the ruins of destroyed churches and monasteries relics of a very troubled past, there were no Muslims involved just a very bloody-minded fanatical bunch of Christians.

    The whole tone and tenor of your comment is quite demeaning and derogatory and is a mirror reflection of the Grand Mufti’s attitude from the other side.

  82. Harry Ormond: “It is said that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) gave a decree about Christians at the monastery of St. Catherine in Mount Sinai Egypt, one wonders if the Grand Mufti knows of this text and if so has he chosen to ignore the words of his Prophet (pbuh)?”

    There are varying degrees of debates among scholars, both muslim and non-muslim, as to the authenticity of the document/letter that you referenced. Many believe that such lack of authenticity is shown clearly by the fact that not a single muslim government/mufti has ever followed its guidelines on dealing with christians and jews.

    Surely, if it was truly the word of mohammed (the perfect man, and a model for all believers, doncha know?) it would have been followed by most, if not all, muslim governments and grand muftis. Instead, these govts and muftis follow pact of omar which outlines dhimmitude status of non-muslims in conquered lands.

    There is not even a single mention of mohammed’s letter in volumes upon volumes of compiled hadith. And many of the letter’s provisions go against koranic verses, most notably jaziya/dhimmitude.

    It is almost certainly a forgery, created to bolster the security of the christian monks of the Mount Sinai Monastry. This is why the document no longer exists in its original form: there never was an original letter. In reality the very existence of this document is evidence of the fear under which the monks have lived, as are the impregnable walls of the monastery building itself.

    More importantly, it is often used by deceptive islamic apologists/islamophiliacs today to cover up the depredations of dhimmitude over the last 1400 yrs!

  83. Now wait a minute, I was thinking about the letter Harry quoted to show us how tolerant Islam is. It is the famous, or often quoted, “Letter to the Christian monks of Mount Sinai”

    It is probably a fake, for several reasons:
    1. No original. What is displayed is a “copy”.
    2. First mentioned in 1500s
    3. Does not fit Mohammed’s life history, or timeline. Come on, does anybody think the letter is from 628AD?
    4. The translation cited is incomplete. The list of witnesses is problematic. It doesn’t fit ancient letter form for period.
    5. If it were original, or authentic, it would easily be the oldest Arabic-language document in the world. It would be 200 years earlier than the earliest Quran.
    6. There is no linguistic analysis of Arabic text or script. No technical dating of paper or ink.
    7. The whole “Mohammed’s handprint” on it yells fake. Remember, Muslims are people that kill over cartoons, but a drawing of the prophets hand is just fine. As far as I know, the hand is part of the body.
    8. The theology is wrong, unless Muslims are ok with Mohammed having divine powers or speaking for god. Well, they are…

    I’m no expert, but the letter is about as authentic as the Shroud of Turin.

    Yet Muslims — and Harry — cite it everywhere on the Internet as “proof” of Islam’s tolerance to Christians (what about Buddhists and Hindus – what are they, chopped liver?).

    It was probably counterfeited by a Christian monk about 600-700 years ago to show to his Muslim Overload, to avoid taxation and persecution.

    W, you are good with history… What do you think of the letter? Real or fake?

  84. Here’s my deal:

    Why don’t we start around 4400 BCE and discuss how the origins of the bible/Talmud was constructed. Thus showing the absolute course of how it transformed from a pagan system of multi Gods then how it slowly changed to the One God (Ywhw). Of course you can definitely discuss how the books were forged or created and then reforged and recreated and reforged and recreated, etc, etc, …..Then you show how after all this crap how some items were just thrown in for good measure for nothing more than, so say we to get the Jewish religion.

    Next you show how there were many Christian sects that believed differently and took different (Select) gospels along with letters of Paul (many of which we now know to be forgeries) and create a whole new line of lies and misery based upon a character called Jesus who wanted you to worship him. (Ego is great here.) Now don’t forget that there are now gospels that contradict the original gospels and that none of them can be dated back to the apostles or actually attributed to them actually writing them – truly. (WOW – People follow this crap).

    Next we come to Islam which all documents show that it was created some 100 to 150 years after the fact and only gets clearer as a religion in the 9th century. Not forgeting that there is no actually original koran, of the 600,000 fake hadith that had been located only 4000 + was considered allegedly reliable (many even today that they are a lie), and that the story of Muhammad actually was told 120 years after the fact but wait that work is gone too. Then you have 1/3 of the book that is not the original that actually cannot be deciphered in Arabic but can in Syroarabic for the most part which contradicts much of what is in todays koran. Then you have the objects of the scholars during the 9th century who objected to the way the koran was codified to try to stop all the thousands of variations.

    I see problems here people.

    Next let us see how this has had an ever lasting impact on the middle east. Hmmm……….4400 bce WAR ………….WAR 2000 BCE……………WAR 1000BCE …………..WAR 1CE…………….WAR 1020CE ………….WAR (TODAY). Hmmmm……………Middle east and the rest of the worlds biggest problems codified make believe divine law.

    There you go……all summed up.

  85. I find it funny to see some of the comments here. Most of you seem to be alarmed by the hatred this Mufti has towards others but judging by many of the comments on this website, I can see how most of you simply live on hatred towards others who do not share the same ideology as you do. Most of the comments here are so hostile towards people who have religion. Why? Aren’t you being judgemental just as these religious extremists are? Aren’t you harbouring on hatred just as these religious fanatics are? I never could understand why people could hate so much and spend most of their lives trying to bring down other people’s way of life or faith. If you don’t agree with someone’s faith, ok but don’t force your own ideology down other people’s throat.I’m not very familiar with this Mufti but if he did announce such a hateful speech, I reject him!Hatred in anyway is never accepted in my book.

    Someone here mentioned “Civilized people do not run around screaming, whining, burning, destroying and murdering innocent people when somebody somewhere burns a magic book or draws a cartoon.” I agree but I would like to continue this speech that civilized people don’t go around mocking other’s faiths, taunting people’s sacred beliefs, disregard the basic part of a being a human which is to respect and embrace diversity. It is the behaviour of a 10 year old school bully who enjoys teasing and mocking other people and stamping his naughty feet on other kids’ treasures. I am a Muslim and I love my prophet and my Quran. I am not forcing others to love what I love but along that sense I do expect some kind of respect. What do you think the intention of people who go around burning other people’s holy books are?because they are out of firewood for the winter?or is it because they WANT to create hatred and anger and to show their disrespect to other;s belief?is that civilized?these people are extremists too.they thrive on creating hatred.they know that if they burn some holy books,some group of people will be angry so that’s why they do it. It is just the same about flag burning!why do people get so riled up when their national flag gets burnt somewhere?after all, it is just a flag, a piece of cloth. well, because this act is done to inflame hatred towards certain country or race. a flag is something dear to that particular country, a sacred symbol.same goes with holy books means something.not to you but to others!so why risk it?why risk causing harm,inflicting hatred among people?VERY UNCIVILIZED BEHAVIOUR!

    Extremist in any shape is unacceptable and I find most of the commenters here are gearing towards that.Just because you don’t like religion or don’t believe in it, why spend so much effort trying to bring down other people’s religion. Frankly I get tired of people disrespecting
    and insulting in what I is my choice just as it is your choice to not believe.I didn’t mock or insult your choice.Frankly, on this website, I see that most of the disrespecting of other people’s choice comes from
    atheists.Digging and slandering and bashing people’s beliefs..until when?Until we follow your choice?that’s rather arrogant I must say then.I’m a Muslim and I can live side by side with non Muslims,I raise my family with values,I live by my country’s law,I respect other people and the choice they make.Live and let live!

  86. wzrd1,

    would you consider living in Malaysia 🙂 I’m a Malaysian married to an Arab with a beautiful exotic looking baby girl (thanks to the amazing mixture of genes) and we are currently residing in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia’s capital city and I must say throughout my experience of living in UK,visiting USA and Saudi, I cannot call any other place as home.If a peaceful country with amazing diversity of religion and culture is what u desire, i strongly recommend 🙂

  87. Mrs. Bawizar … you make some very valid comments and people do go overboard on this forum quite often. I think there are a few reasons for it. Sadness at the oppression of women in most Muslim countries, sadness that in many countries Muslims are strongly discouraged from questioning their religion, fear of very, very violent extremists, disgust for Muslim governments who maim and destroy others including other Muslims in the name of the Quran or in the name of Islam – Bahrain for example. I am married to a Sudanese Muslim and we both look in disgust at what has happened to the Christians of the now South Sudan. That is just one example.

    I think most of us recognize that the actions of a few does not mean that all will react in the same way but you must admit that Islam is a religion that is forced even before birth and that having the freedom to break away is not allowed and that following what the religious leaders say is paramount. That is a very, very sad thing to many of us here.

  88. Mrs Bawazar,

    Please understand that hate (or better, dislike or criticism) is one thing while destroying property, enacting discriminatory laws, calling for people to be killed and even embracing an ideology that teaches distain for others is quite another thing.

    Yes, there are many critics of Islam here. However, as far as I know they are not calling for the destruction of mosques, they do not call for the death of Muslims, or people that convert to Islam, or want laws that discriminate against Muslims in any way, nor to they believe that non-infidels (Muslims) are lower than animals. That is what Muslims do and believe, at least if they know their religion.

    You say “Hatred in anyway is never accepted in my book” yet you accept the Quran, a book that has hundreds of verses that denigrate non-Muslims in every way. Or do you think the treatment of Non-Muslims in Islam-dominated societies is the work of the Tooth Fairy?

    As to Malaysia, nice country and nice people, but not very tolerant. I really doubt that you are unaware of the religious and ethnic discrimination practiced in your country or the increasing radicalization of Islam in Malaysia. The fact that you do not mention this shows that you are either ignorant or in denial about Islam, its teachings and practice. I don’t think you are ignorant. Google the name ‘Lina Joy’.

    So, to you, anybody that criticizes Islam is full of ‘hate’, but someone who passively supports hate and discrimination hate is a loving, peaceful person as long as that person is a Muslim.

    The fact is that Muslims cannot accept criticism of their religion and prophet. They don’t even want to think about certain things. Morality is for others, right? And so nothing changes except it gets worse.

  89. I think that when you are at the head of a world religion and you spend that influence and power into inciting millions of believers to destroy other peoples places of worship knowing full well this will result in lots of violence, mayhem and murder, it cannot ever be beaten as far as UNCIVILIZED BEHAVIOR goes.
    It is the ultimate in evil.
    Writing a few belligerent comments on an internet forum is really no comparison.

  90. Dear katcuz

    I do not accept your assertions that the copy of the Mount Sinai decree is a fake document manufactured by Monks, are we to believe that these holy Christian Monks were forgers and fakers? If His All Holiness Bartholomew I Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and Pope of New Rome, the spiritual leader of a 300 million strong worldwide Orthodox Christian Community, accepts the authenticity of the Mount Sinai decree I am happy to defer to his knowledge on the matter.

    I completely fail to understand your reference to Buddhists and Hindus in your response obviously added as a red herring to distract from the topic at hand regarding the original harsh statement by a Muslim cleric regarding Christian Churches.

    We should be encouraging peace, understanding and forbearance between the peoples of the book not seeking ways to incite decision among the children of Allah. You can tie yourself up in knots teasing out the minutia and authenticity of this and that and lose sight of the bigger picture and the fact that we should be promoting peace understanding and forbearance between the children of Allah not seeking ways to incite decision among his children. Your statements and those of the Grand Mufti are just two sides of one coin, the currency of intolerance.

    I cannot finish this response without comment on your statement “The whole “Mohammed’s handprint” on it yells fake. Remember, Muslims are people that kill over cartoons,”. What has a dreadful and outrageously disrespectful cartoon of the 21st century got to do with a handprint on an ancient document? In fact the footprint of the Prophet (pbuh) is a cherished Islamic relic why should his handprint be any less acceptable.

    Here below please find another beautiful letter written by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to the Assyrian Christians.

    A Letter from the Prophet Muhammad To The Assyrian Christians

    “God has told me in a vision what to do, and I confirm His command by giving my solemn promise to keep this agreement.

    “To the followers of the Islam I say: Carry out my command, protect and help the Nazarene nation in this country of ours in their own land. Leave their places of worship in peace; help and assist their chief and their priests when in need of help, be it in the mountains, in the desert, on the sea, or at home. Leave all their possessions alone, be it houses or other property, do not destroy anything of their belongings, the followers of Islam shall not harm or molest any of this nation, because the Nazarenes are my subjects, pay tribute to me and will help the Muslims. No tribute, but what is agreed upon, shall be collected from them, their church buildings shall be left as they are, they shall not be altered, their priests shall be permitted to teach and worship in their own way-the Nazarenes have full liberty of worship in their churches and homes. None of their churches shall be torn down, or altered into a mosque, except by the consent and free will of the Nazarenes. If any one disobeys this command, the anger of God and His Prophet shall be upon him.

    “The tribute paid the Nazarenes shall be used to promote the teachings of Islam and shall be deposited at the treasury of Beth Almal. A common man shall pay one denar (piece of money), but the merchants and people who own mines of gold and silver and are rich shall pay twelve denars. Strangers and people who have no houses or other settled property shall not have taxes levied upon them. If a man inherits property he shall pay a settled sum to the Baitulmal treasury. The Christians are not obliged to make war on the enemies of Islam, but if an enemy attacks the Christians, the Muslims shall not deny their help, but give them horses and weapons, if they need them, and protect them from evils from outside and keep the peace with them. The Christians are not obliged to turn Muslims, until God’s will makes them believers.

    “The Muslims shall not force Christian women to accept Islam, but if they themselves wish to embrace it, the Muslims shall be kind to them.

    “If a Christian woman is married to a Muslim and does not want to embrace Islam, she has liberty to worship at her own church according to her own religious belief, and her husband must not treat her unkindly on account of her religion. If any one disobeys this command, he disobeys God and his prophet and will be guilty of a great offense.

    “If the Nazarenes wish to build a church, their Muslim neighbours shall help them. This shall be done, because the Christians have obeyed us and have come to us and pleaded for peace and mercy.

    “If there be among the Christians a great and learned man the Muslims shall honour him and not be envious of his greatness.

    “If anyone is unjust and unkind to the Christians he will be guilty of disobeying the Prophet of God.

    “The Christians should not shelter an enemy of Islam or give him horse, weapon or any other help. If a Muslim is in need the Christian shall for three days and nights be his host and shelter him from his enemies. The Christians shall, furthermore, protect the Mohammedan women and children and not deliver them up to the enemy or expose them to view. If the Nazarenes fail to fulfil these conditions, they have forfeited their right to protection, and the agreement is null and void.

    “This document shall be entrusted to the Christian chief and head of their church for safe keeping.”

    The peace of God be over them all! This agreement is written by Moavijah Ben Sofian, according to the dictates of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, in the 4th year of the Hegira in the city of Medina.

  91. Harry O, Yes, I think it entirely believable that these ”holy” monks did a nice job of forgery. It wouldn’t be the only instance of ”holy” monks, clerics, whatever, doing a bit of religious ”holy” forgery to further their causes.

    Actually, whole religions have been based on made up revelations, Invisible angels popping by and giving instructions from some invisible friend, stone tablets which are lost, golden invisible tablets which have disappeared, you name it, it has been done.
    Forging a letter from a prophet from another religion seems a trivial exercise int his light.

  92. Dear Aafke-Art
    You have your beliefs and I have mine.
    Kind regards in a spirit of understanding and respect.

  93. when there are evidence to show the peacefulness of Islam, it’s forgery. when there are “evidence” to show Islam is pure hatred, it is the absolute, rock solid proof. Go figure!

  94. Quite frankly it is show from the very beginning the all Abrahamic religions of the one wimpy “God/Allah” is fake. Start at 4400 BCE, the lies of religions just keeps unfolding from there.

    Here is your fiqh: Reliancce of the Traveller endorsed by all four Islamic Schools of thought. The author of the basic text was Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri who died in (769/1368) and Umar Barakat (d 1307/1890) wrote the text’s commentary, Fayd al-Ilah al-Malik fi hall alfaz ‘Umdat -al-salik wa ‘uddat al-nasik {The outpouring of the Sovereign Divintiy: an interpretation of the words of “The reliance of the traveller and tools of the worshipper”]

    This fiqh is accepted by the follow:

    Internation Institute of Islamic Thought
    Member of Islamic Fiqh Academy at Jedda
    Fiqh Council of North America

    The next following source is:

    Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, translated by A. Guillaume as ” The Life of Muhammad.”

    Here is just a quick run down that I posted previously on a different topic.

    Oh here is an interesting video on islam as slavery:

    The only accounts that Muhammad actually existed is from the koran, muslim biographies and the hadith. Muhammad is reported to have died around 632 CE, with the earliest known material on his life written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 CE. Almost 120 years after the fact. The original work of Ibn Ishaq was lost and can only be accounted for in part by Ibn Hisham who died in 834 CE. That is 200 years later. Now other sources are Ibn Ishaq, died in 768 CE, Ibn Hisham died in 834 CE, Sayf b. Umar, he die in 796, Ali b. Muhammad al Madain died in 840 CE, Al Tabari who died in 923 CE, Muhammad Ibn Sa’d who died in 843 and Al -Waqidi who died in 823 CE.

    Then Hisham’s work was translated by Alfred Guillaume under the title, The Life of Muhammad in 1955 by Oxford Press. Abd al-Malik ibn Hisham’s “Life of Muhammad” relied on the earlier works (Remember that was by Ibn Ishaq whose works were lost). Ulmar al-Waqidi of Medina, who died in 825 CE produced a work, which portions of which have survived, called “The Expeditions of Muhammad”.

    The History of al-Tabari was written by Abu Muhammad bin al-Tabari between 870 and 920 CE

    Again Muhammed died in 632 CE and the oldest know document of Muhammed’s life was 120 years after his death.


    The first collection of the hadith was by al-bukhari in 850CE that is 228 years after the death of Muhammad.

    That is two hundred twenty-eight (228) years after the death of Muhammed.

    Again the first known accounting of Muhammad’s life was by Ibn Ishaq approximately one hundred and twenty (120) years after his death. This work was lost and no one can collaborate if it was even transmitted properly to the rest. Wonder why?

    So let’s just put down the hadith collectors and their deaths.

    1) al-Bukhari (d. 870) 237 years after death of Muhammed
    2) Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj (d. 875) 243 years after
    3) Ibn Maja (d. 887) 255 years after
    4) Abu Dawud (d. 889) 257 years after
    5) al-Tirmidhi (d. 892) 260 years after
    6) al-Nisai (d. 915) 283 years after
    Then there is Ahmed ibn Hanbal (d. 855) on traditions called Musnad and it contains an UNBELIEVABLE amount of traditions some 29000 which has been supposedly subjected to “pious reading.” This was 223 years after the death of Muhammed.

    So here is your source material, now read and have fun.

  95. @ Harry Osmond:

    Given the fact that history was written backward to a point and time it is a forgery.

  96. bigstick1, I know that you are an atheist. No problem with that, but your METHOD is flawed.
    You directly attack a belief system, which generates instant “hardening of the heart”, in short, a summary dismissal of your entire discourse.
    I actually refer to your type as a fundamentalist, militant atheist.
    Have you ever met a Jehovah Witness at your door? Did they return?
    Mine do and enjoy my discussions, as I give GENTLE hints to make them reconsider their solid assumptions.
    Currently, our resident “door preacher” brings elders with him. THEY leave befuddled and with new considerations.
    I’ve *NEVER* said what MY beliefs are, only gave a slight hint. I also suggested that different cultures would receive different messages, as people of a jungle would NEVER understand cultural messages of people of a desert.

    Simply put, forward attacks against a belief system fails on a HUGE scale. Undermining flaws and showing flaws, in a neutral way, which provokes honest thought, DOES work in a large number of cases.

    Even MORE simply put, reject someone’s major belief, they’ll reject anything YOU say. 99.9% of the time. You simply send them off considering you a simpleton with a singular view, not a thoughtful person attempting to inform them of flaws in their fundamental views on their own faith.

    Besides, much of the early bible was Babylonian in source. 🙂
    Except Ester, which isn’t included in the Catholic derived (hence, King James) version for anti-semitic reasons. For, the flawed NEED a scapegoat.

  97. Note: 4400 BCE. start here and see how the religion of lies unfold.

  98. “I actually refer to your type as a fundamentalist, militant atheist.”

    And that sums up exactly who bigstick is!!!A fundamentalist at its worst! similar to any fanatic “Sheiks” calling for destruction of holy places of worships!didn’t I read somewhere where you wish to see the obliteration of all religions?

    I’m done having meaningless discussions because with any fundamentalist bigot, you won’t get anything but negativity and intolerance.

    Quoting Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr “The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.”

  99. B:

    Until the religious stop inflicting their hate upon the world I will voice my oppositon to it. Unfortunately the religious cannot stop infliciting it upon others so I will fight back until all of you leave those of us who don’t want hatefilled murderous backward barbaric delusional ideology inflicted upon them.

    So keep it in your home, in private out of the public sphere out of hospitals, out of health care and out of politics. If the religious can keep it in their churches or mosques and leave it there we would all be better off. However they can’t. No, they must bring it to your doors, try to inflict their doctrines on people’s health care, gender discrimination, homophobia, race or any number of other hateful division and they then inflict their doctrines of hate into everything. They kill witches, have inquistions, send the world backwards, spread hate and divide the world. Until people stop doing that I will voice my opinion against the hate ideology that is the make believe abrahamic faith of a make believe god of evil. The only thing that supports this god is a written word by man that is bound in a book filled with contradictions and absurities.

    You have nothing to stand on but a written text with no support from any deity. That support can only be found by a text written by a man. I can write a text and call it a religon then people can follow it but it still doesn’t make it true. Same with this religion, the text doesn’t make it true.

    However, how it has been used makes it evil.

  100. owkay biggie sticky…whatever makes your bigot-of-a-mind happy…

  101. B:

    Your are right I am a bigot. I am intolerate to ideology that supports, murder, rape, slavery, hate, discrimination, child abuse, wife abuse, mutaliation, etc. Since religion supports all this you can call me a bigot all day long as I don’t subscribe or support the doctrines of hate.

  102. bigstick1, I REFUSE to accept ANY argument of ANY extreme. EXTREMISTS start wars.
    My cousin and many, VERY close friends have died in war against an extremist of one sort or another.
    Frankly, YOU are equal, in by eyes, to Al Qaeda.
    And if you consider my PERSONAL experiences, you should review your opinions and statements.

    A small hint, as you have rejected TWO hints previously, FIND COMMONALITY AND EXPAND ON IT.
    Reject it and accept total war.
    I’ll be in the middle, as an unconscionable SOB, ENFORCING peace by means military.
    The SECULAR role.
    Whereas, YOU seem to wish to ENFORCE atheism, which is ALSO against the very first amendment.

  103. IN short, bigstick, MODERATE your message to suit to ALL.
    NOT *FORCE* your view, which you are ATTEMPTING!

    Or, as my mother suggested, decades ago, one can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.
    YOU provide vinegar.
    You FORCE people that MAY WELL Be amenable to your views, away, due to your forceful portrayal of views.
    Please, we DO agree on MANY points, reconsider your “angle of attack”.

    Good night, I have to go annoy my wife by my snoring…. 😉
    Or something.

  104. No, I have no problem with religion so long as it is not put into the public sphere it is between you and your God. The second you put it into the public sphere it is different then you make it between someone else, you and God. See the difference. Next, a voice of opposition is different than an action of murder or destruction.

    So long as religion stays out of the public realms and remains private fine. You are entitled to your belief what you want but don’t expect me to be accept or welcome of it the second your start trying to inflict it upon me.

  105. No, I am not into political correctness. Try again.

  106. bigstick1, I’m as politically correct as objecting to two boys fucking in the woods.
    Hell, politically speaking, I’m “wrong”.
    BUT, constitutionally, we BOTH agree totally.
    Religion does NOT have a place in US government. UNLESS ALL are expressed, to INCLUDE deism and atheism, with emphasis on your view. ALL evidence should be considered, by SCIENTIFIC means, before it enters the realm of politics.

    Now, in the REAL world, it DOES exist.
    YOUR refutement only continues to extend the argument, rather than undermining, by science, the REALITY/
    It can NEVER be a MASSIVE effort, it can only be GRADUAL enlightment.
    We can THEN agree in our minor disagreement.

    Because, today, the Muslim world is at the middle ages level of development. One CANNOT uplift that stage, it must be experienced. THEN, lessons learned.
    For Arabs, they learn *REAL* quick, a survival thing.
    Whilst I may not agree with them, I DO understand where “they’re coming from”, agree or not.
    As an example, my Arab friend was in his hard with his wife and kids. My wife was there too.
    They were ALL enjoying his pool (we had a similar pool, we took turns enjoying the same).
    He noticed an Egyptian security guard, erm, “admiring” our wives.
    HIS response was to yell threats at him.
    I suggested to him, let him enjoy the view briefly, until I could find a sufficient rock to hit the SOB in the center of the forehead with.

    Of course, THAT is a sociological thing. My father’s parents were from Sicily.
    Has my upbringing been colored by the heritage, yes, to a positive level, due to my personal experience abroad.
    As for right and wrong, do YOU feel comfortable with trying to raise an army?
    I am.
    Of course, it WAS my former occupation.
    In short, consider, “I think I think, therefore, I am”.
    THEN, reconsider that again.
    THEN, reconsider what you THINK is reality.
    It’s FAR more complicated than you consider.

  107. when you converse with crazy, you will feel like you are going crazy. like if you sit with someone that is full blown bipolar. and that is what i have come to the conclusion of the bickstick woman. you can’t reason with a bipolar disease, you will go through so many emotions that you normally dont experience in everyday life. you can’t reason. it is a disease that needs meds. read her comments closely,and you will find words she writes very disturbing. it’s like she is not aware of her surroundings, possible in a mental bubble waiting to explode. i had to volunteer/work (ONE time for schooling) with mental adults, and she fits the bill–grossly.

    i say leave her alone, and let her use this blog as a punching ground, and save the people she is close to from her perilous mind.

  108. bickstick, you sound like a looney–go take your meds. oh, sorry this is your punching ground. i forgot

  109. Look, Please do not misquote what people say! I don’t know why your blog is called americanbedu? Gathering from your posts, its should be called american hates bedu!

    Prophet PBUH was one of the most peaceful man ever! To say that this guy is simply echoing the words of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is totally wrong! For your information, the word Islam is derived from the root word Salam which means peace!

    If you have so many problems with Saudi Arabia, why don’t you go back??

    And I hope you are happy now! Now that you have portrayed a very wrong picture of the Saudi Society and made the West and your readers hate Saudi even more! Please stop lying for god’s sake!

  110. aliadlw, the blog is highly pro-Saudi in many areas. Only in this article is there something negative, which is sourced to BosNewsLife’s article which gave the quote.
    Now, for some who comment on the articles, there are some who are highly anti-Saudi and anti-Islam, but THAT is a different matter entirely.
    If you have a different quote from the Grand Mufti, please be kind enough to post it here, along with the source article.

  111. For God’s sake, this blog is about Americans in Saudi, its not an invitation to malign Islam!

  112. aliadlw, in what way is repeating a news article maligning a religion? Or is repeating news articles now considered an attack?
    If you have a translation of his comments that were reported on in the article that differs, kindly provide it for all to consider.
    Not for God’s sake, but for TRUTH’S sake.

  113. Here he goes again, the Grand Muffin of Saudi Arabia …..

    Going against the wishes of the King (“raising the marriageable age”), the grand muffin has renewed his fatwa for keeping the marriageable age as is. Obviously, he bases his rationale on koran and hadees:

    koran 33:21: Mohammad is the supreme example of conduct;

    hadith: Sahih Bukhari 7.62.88: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    Perhaps the king ought to do what Kemal Ataturk did in Sept 1923. According to Turkish folklore legend, he invited all the leading islamic clerics of the day (“trouble-makers”) to a conference aboard the ships in the caspian seas. Then he had the turkish airforce bombard and sink them all.

    The king has all the “right stuff”: the sea and the navy and the airforce and the “trouble-makers” :)-

  114. Oh what a hatred! Would you you say the same about the rabbis?

  115. Yes …. here ya go …. grand puffin, grand poopah, grand ….

  116. Snowman:

    Why do you think it would be any different for a Rabbi? Just curious.

    My personal view are they are the often one and the same they are religious so besides very minor theological points (basic premise Fake God, man demi-god prophets, rule laden activities, hatred, god sanction murdering, slavery, etc.) really what is the difference between them to you.

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