Saudi Arabia: Can an Unmarried Woman with a Saudi child Receive Restitution?

There are women in the United States and elsewhere in the world who have had intimate relationships with Saudi students who were in their home country.  Some of these women found themselves pregnant and abandoned by their Saudi.

These women who are now single mothers and raising a Saudi child want recognition and restitution.  They wish for financial recompense which would help them raise their child.  They also would like to know the medical history of their Saudi as that can impact on their own child’s health.

Several of these women in the United States have emailed, telephoned or written the Saudi Embassy in Washington, DC.  It seems they are referred to Dr. Mody Al-Khalaf, Director of Social and Cultural Affairs.  None of them have received a satisfactory response.

Two of the women have created blogs and are using their blogs to speak out of their situation.  One of the blogs is “Abandoned Children by their Saudi Father” and the other is “Saudi Children Left Behind.”

I’ve made a few comments on their blogs from time to time.  When both of the bloggers were making comments about writing to the Saudi embassy, I decided to share a comment I had made as a blog post in its own right on American Bedu.

Following is American Bedu’s response in regards to one of the bloggers writing a letter to the Saudi Embassy:

Just to clarify to all, Dr. Mody Al-Khalaf is female. I do not mean to disparage any woman but the facts are that Saudi women have a much more diminished role or authority even if they hold a diplomatic passport and a position in an embassy.

Areas in the Embassy which would have more impact are the Saudi Cultural Attache who is responsible for actions taken by Saudi students while in the US; Islamic Affairs which would want to Islamic jurisprudence upheld; Saudi Citizen officer within the Consulate section and of course the Ambassador’s office. Within the Kingdom it would be the Ministry of Higher Education which oversees issuance of scholarships; Ministry of Foreign Affairs for facilitation of the US visas and last but not least, the families of the Saudi men/boys.

However, do not get your hopes up that the Saudi government would get actively involved. The US government would not get involved if the situation were in reverse.

I cannot stress enough that one has to know the culture inside and out. Saudi women are to be chaste until marriage. Therefore a non-Saudi unmarried woman pregnant by a Saudi may not be taken seriously. She will be viewed by many as loose and “placed the Saudi son under an evil eye.” I know that sounds far fetched but it is a mindset which exists there.

A Saudi family may want the child to raise him/her as a proper Muslim and away from the evils of the West. The mother of the child would not be viewed seriously. Let’s say promises might be made to bring the mother and child to the Kingdom but after that, the mother may either be firmly isolated or returned back to the States WITHOUT her child. Yes; that does happen and more often than one will read about in media reports.

What a mother must consider is what is best for her child? Where should she direct her energies and resources?

If a mother wishes to make her situation known to the Saudi government in writing there is a specific way to go about it. Draft a clear, concise and short letter that is NOT anti-Saudi. (bullet style may be best) Do not criticize the scholarship program. This same letter should be translated to Arabic. Send the letter in both English and Arabic.

Do not attempt to just show up at the Embassy and hope to speak to someone. Won’t happen. Try to get a specific appointment. For example, wait 10 days and then follow up on your letter with a phone call. Find out who it has been “assigned to” and then speak with that individual. See if you can then make an appointment to come and speak about your correspondence. If you are fortunate to get an appointment, consider seriously bringing male representation with you. You want something from Saudi Arabia then you need to have your entire approach made in the Saudi way.

Media would bring attention but think carefully. Once a can is opened it can be hard to close back up. Yet I will say that Saudis can and do react to shame…sometimes in a positive way and sometimes in a negative way.

I hope this helps.

End American Bedu comment on other blog.

 

So what do YOU, American Bedu, readers think?  How would you advise these women who are now raising Saudi children as single mothers?  Should the Saudi government intervene?  Is it right for them to seek support?  If a Saudi student gets a foreigner pregnant while on a scholarship abroad should his scholarship be revoked?  Should he be sent back to Saudi?  Should these women go to the media with their stories?  Should the names of the Saudi students be publicized?  I ask these questions as these are also questions that are either being asked by the single mothers or being asked of them.

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170 Responses

  1. Should the Saudi government intervene? – Nope , they didn’t get involved in dating and the living together , so why now?

    Is it right for them to seek support? — Absolutely, any self-respecting man will gladly do his share.

    If a Saudi student gets a foreigner pregnant while on a scholarship abroad should his scholarship be revoked? – on the fence on this one, It’s almost like revenge ruining his life, but he didn’t get the lady pregnant all by himself, so both share responsibility, plus they all knew his stay was short term for education purpose only…

    Should he be sent back to Saudi? — for what? to dissapear, for co-habiting with women?

    Should these women go to the media with their stories? — again on the fence, if i t was me , i would not do it, i’d exhaust all means before trying the public shame, it could very well backfire.

    Should the names of the Saudi students be publicized? — If they are not paying child support then put themonthe list which deducts pay automatically if they ever work inthe US, else i don’t see any reason, any man or woman can have a sexual relationship and stop it, it’s not a crime.

    I may come across as biased and harsh, but apart from forcing him to pay u i don’t see how anything else helps the woman. that can be accomplished if and only if he steps into the US again, then he can be made to pay. otherwise it would be stupid to go to saudi with the child and contact his family. you vcannot make anyone want you or the kid , you can make them support you but that’s it.

    Emotionally , yes he cheated you, but thenunless you were under 18 it’s not a crime.

    @carol – how many more of these do we have to see? sigh i’m tired of these men acting like scum and even more tired of the women who don’t want to listen to reason and suffer inthe end. e,g current crop of residents who are slated to leave soon and “in-love” , they’ll leave, the women weep , maybe have a baby or 2, ruin their life , come june fresh blood will show up and yet another crop of women will have a chance to get their heart broken. was,rinse , repeat… it’s almost like a disease. oh i forget int he middle of this if we try and give some advise, they’ll look at you like you are agaionst “love”. so nowadays i don’t even bother, like we say back home. it’s your FATE , deal with it.

  2. If saudi student cause a foreign woman to be pregnant, then he deserve a hundred lashes on his back. and it would be better if that take place in time square in NY.

  3. Well, personally , I believe they should get the same treatment as a foreigner would get if he made a Saudi woman pregnant in Saudi Arabia….. Right?
    It’s just too easy for these Saudis to go abroad and take their frustrations out in every sense of the way , in the western countries!!
    And still come out clean.
    Honestly sometimes I really feel we should have reciprocity laws with KSA.
    Really.
    For eg, women can’t drive in Saudi, let’s not allow Saudi women to drive in our country either…
    I know , I know, I sound harsh, but really, it may help change some people.
    I know I am dreaming, cuz at the end of the day, money is power ….
    That’s one of the thing they surely have.

  4. This happens a great deal! I know of a half dozen cases my self. And what adds insult to injury, is these Saudis know that they can not take the woman home, or marry her under recent new laws. Some of these SAudi men are like dogs.

    Everytime, I meet a young American College girl who may get sweet on a foreign Muslim, I warn them in the sternest terms. Geez, those dark complected Middle Eastern guys are hypnotic in their affect on American girls, especially those who are a bit curvy and perhaps a little homely. They are needy, and some men just think with their two little brains. If I had my way and I got to take care of these guys, they would need tweezers after I finished with them.

    And if some of you think I am snarky bitch, tough.

  5. Ohh yeah, and I’m all for the lashes too 😉
    Since when its okay for (muslim) Saudi men to have extra martial sex? Where as a Saudi woman may be killed for the same act?
    I read the blog , and it stated some ministry of something will support kids born of Saudi fathers…. Really!?? you won’t put them in jail first, it’s still better treatmement than what a Saudi woman would have gone thru. ( if she would still be alive )
    Come on!
    If you follow the shariah , then really do it for both sexes.

  6. deleted by administrator

  7. I wish the Saudi guys would remember their religion’s rules about sleeping with women they are not married to. That would solve a lot of these problems, it seems.

    But since people will always break religious rules, I FOR SURE think they should be held responsible for bringing new life into the world. They should be men who support their children instead of people who merely impregnate women and then go back to KSA as if they deserve virgins for their brides.

  8. susanne430,I couldn’t agree more on all your statements!!! these irresponsible behaviour should be taken seriously as innocent children are the one’s suffering. I cried reading one post on http://abandonedchildrenbytheirsaudifather.blogspot.com/

    Radhaa, your points are not without wisdom. I just wished these girls would think a thousand times before making unwise choices. who said you cannot help falling in love? too many a times the victims are not the two irresponsible adults but the little babies!!!uggh just makes me so angry!

  9. According to their religious they can have 4 wifes, slaves and temporary wives. So, looks like there doing what their religion allows. There religious says that can be dogs, treat others poorly who are not muslims, etc.

    That is their religions and they are adhering to it well.

    If these women had any sense afterwards they would keep their baby far away from such men who are worthless to being with. Then way would anyone trust a Saudi (muslim) male or his government. They speak with forked tongue.

  10. @Radhaa – I agree; it is a cycle which is not going to stop. (sigh)

  11. bigstick!, you don’t know a thing about what you’re talking!why do you hate Islam so much?Don’t you ever get tired of your own hatred?anywhere you go, you would try your worst to slander Islam! According to my religion, there is no slavery (if you did your homework, that slavery was abolished gradually. in fact several versus of the Quran talked about freeing slaves example[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves ,Islam does not, condone slavery, period. People who called themselves “muslim” did. Islam opened all the doors to free the slaves by setting up rules which greatly facilitated the emancipation of slaves), temporary wives are forbidden and taking four wives is not encouraged at all although permissible but with HEAVY conditions! and most certainly Islam prohibits being irresponsible with regards to children!The only one speaking with a forked tongue is you! Muslims are COMMANDED to treat non Muslims with respect and kindness (non Muslims who are non hostile of course like my neighbours who I have great relations with)! Maybe the Islam that you “learnt” shows hatred because this is your mission but the Islam that I learnt as millions of other Muslims learnt are nothing of the sort of rubbish you and few others here try to dig!You keep bringing a load of garbage when you talk about Islam and frankly, I’m damn tired of seeing my faith ridiculed by you or anyone else. Do I or any other Muslims here ridicule you for not believing? it is just exasperating to see over and over again on this website people like you who just don’t understand how to respect other
    people and what they believe in! Oh one more thing, stick to the damn topic!Geez!

  12. This is bull shit !!

    women get … when they sleep with any man of any nationality ,not just saudis ?why did she sleep when she dint wan to get …. ?

    Why just saudis ?there are innumerable women who are …. by the aremicans them selves the boy friend and gurlfriend relationships ?And then they live on the child benefits .

    How much percent of saudis are in armeica studying ,how many make ,how many gurls …. (oh as if gurls never knew they get …. if they sleep with males very innicent huh!!) .

    Is this number greater than what number of armeicas become …. by amreicans and europ-eans and left to live on child benefits?

    why is it always easy to blame a male! oh you think male and female are not equal and its all males responsebility ?

    Seems these women get no more child befetis coz they mothered asaudi child?

    Edited for denigrating language, please be more polite in your comments. Also this is a forum for discussion, not text-messaging, so please try to write normal English.

  13. It takes 2 to make a baby. The ‘abandoned’ woman should have done her bit to ensure she did not get pregnant and how many women in the USA and Canada are raising children on their own, children who have been fathered by their own countrymen. I’m not excusing Saudi men here but it does take 2 and women should be responsible for themselves and not depend on someone else to be responsible for them.

  14. @mrs bawazir
    i agree. bigstick doesnt know squat, and never posts links to her lies. she is allowed to smear islam on a site that is belonged to a muslim, and family of saudi’s. im confused on that one?? lack of knowledge maybe on the owners blog or moderator. since all moderation is on a different topic.but that’s ok.? this is turning into a jerry springerish show.
    @anahindi
    maybe if you wrote something against/hateful on islam,or saudi people you wouldnt have been edited? i would much rather have read your deleted post, than the smearing of islam and saudi’s.

    back on topic. american girls would rather have their freedom to choose open relationships than be told/controlled by family that it is wrong and dont do it (something saudi’s do to their women to protect them from this same problem) usa girls will do whatever she wants to do even if it’s sleeping with a dozen men or staying chaste for her marriage. there are all different types of girls in america. and some saudi’s marry virgin american girls..believe it or not. and some dont. it doesnt matter any guy of any country will marry a girl if he really has the intentions. these girls that get used and that is what it is used, are not isolated to just saudi’s, american guys do it to. if a girl got pregnant by a saudi and he beat her she would run away from him, and same like with american men. the only thing different is that she has no money from the guy if he doesnt give her any for the baby. and is she thinking anyway with a foreigner, and dealing with their country and laws. i dont think so. if you go to italy, you will have a similar problem. actually, choose any country. american women are known to be free when it comes to open relationships, and arabs know it, and take advantage. so, fair game. i think american women should stick to american men, because they are equal in this topic, and each one is the same in each others eyes when it comes to this topic.

  15. I get the anger and frustration that comes out of this situation, but I am afraid that there is simply not much that can be done.

    The law does not provide for emotional restitution. The law can not make the guy want you, love you, marry you and be a reliable father and partner. The only remedy wielded by the law is money. This only works if both parents are subjects of the American system; if the deadbeat dad is American, he can get his wages garnished, etc. With a foreigner, it really can’t work.

    I don’t understand why these women would want any legal entanglements, which a shared custody arrangement will create, with a culture that is generally very unfair and limited to women. Cut your losses, move and do not tell the guy where you live. Remember that this culture views children as property of men. The mother is irrelevant. My own Saudi MIL, sweet as she is, refers to children of her daughters as “grandchildren of the people”, not her grandchildren. Even though she’s much more involved in their lives than in grandchildren through her sons, she only sees children of her sons as her grandchildren. Not her daughters’. Get this into your head.

    And for Chrissakes, USE BIRTH CONTROL!!!! Why do you get pregnant outside the marriage? Don’t you know what children do to your life? Why do you have children if you’re not ready? I wouldn’t even get a kitten if I wasn’t ready. Ladies. It’s only your life you’re screwing with.

  16. PS: Dr. Mody Alkhalaf is a nobody. She’s in charge of Saudi social clubs. Very sweet lady but not much in the embassy hierarchy.

  17. Actually, I think it is you who don’t know your own religion. You are the one who hasn’t read the hadith, the incomplete and lacking koran that needs additional subject matter, the fiqh. You don’t even know what the four schools of islamic law states on this matter. I have researched the religion a great deal. The problem you have is that you can’t even understand that your own clerics are actually preaching what islam states. They are preaching exactly what is written. You problems isn’t with me. It is with your delusionals of your religion. Your religion in how it is being applied by the 4 schools of thought, clerics and the countries has nothing to do with the religion you think you are following.

    Your are lying to yourself or are a cherry picker nothing more. Quite frankly you need to start looking at what is written including the fiqh (sharia law). This is islam. Islam as it is being applied in countries is discriminating against women (seen as sex objects – brainless idiots), murdering, blasphemy laws, apostate laws, witchcraft, death to other religions, etc etc. etc.

    Your religion as it is practice is about murder and hate at this time as far as I and many people are concerned. One incident after another after another. This is the trend of your religion.

    All religions as far as I am concerned are based upon a manmade “God” of evil. That is religion a evil curse to the world. It has brought nothing but war, hate, apartheid, and division. The sooner it dies, the better off the world and mankind will be.

    Saudi’s and Islam smear themselves all by themselves. No help is needed as it appears constantly in news articles, actions and deed.

    By the way Islam is one of the biggest slave traders around and has been for 1400 years. You really need to see what they did to the African nation and the death and destruction they ensured that continent had and still has. The documentation on the slave trade by muslims is quite well known.

    Gia – Get a clue or phone a friend.

  18. “So what do YOU, American Bedu, readers think? How would you advise these women who are now raising Saudi children as single mothers? Should the Saudi government intervene? Is it right for them to seek support? If a Saudi student gets a foreigner pregnant while on a scholarship abroad should his scholarship be revoked? Should he be sent back to Saudi? Should these women go to the media with their stories? Should the names of the Saudi students be publicized? I ask these questions as these are also questions that are either being asked by the single mothers or being asked of them.”

    If they are in a country such as the USA, forget the guy. Rely on government assistance if you have to. Don’t be afraid to take out US student loans if you need to in order to finish university. Look into government programs to help with the cost of daycare/preschool/after-school day care.

    I don’t think a Saudi student’s scholarship should be revoked if he gets a girl pregnant. However, if he is in the USA I think it would be nice to have an agreement between the US and Saudi governments in order for the US government to go after the Saudi’s scholarship money for child support by US standards. If he does not comply with the order to pay child support, then instead of going to jail, he should be forced to be sent back to his home country. However, this requires an agreement between the US and Saudi governments.

    Going to the media with these stories is a double-edged sword, so to speak as it will make both the Saudi and the mother look bad. However, if a large group of women (especially if they had an Islamic permanent marriage) went to the media, lobbied in front of Saudi embassies, filed child support lawsuits, and/or whatever legal things they can do, etc. I would hope it would help bring international support and awareness to the situation.

  19. NN, excellent comment, thanks for sharing.

  20. NN,
    It is possible to still become pregnant while on birth control. I realize this doesn’t happen a lot, but I’ve known at least 3 women this has happened to.

  21. And for the record, 2 were on the pill, 1 was on the shot. One of the people on the pill was a doctor. None were dating Saudis, however. If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex.

  22. These women are absolutely better off with the scum. No child should be subjected to not being wanted and Saudi holds no respect for women or children as they are deemed property. Best to cut you losses, chalk it up to a major life lesson and move on. You can always put the child up for adoption.

  23. Should state, “Better off without the scum.”

  24. I read about Steve Jobs and found that he was given to adoption because he was born outside marriage and that this is the norm in America, when a child born outside marriage he or she is given to another family to adopt this child. I wonder why this doesn’t happen in the case of these women who have children from saudi men. Why these women have not followed the norm, which has been practiced in the case of Steve Jobs.

  25. Yes lets hope those children will be successful and help the humanity same as Steve was!

  26. Bigstick1, you are hopeless and clearly wishes only to listen to your side of the story ONLY. I am explaining to you that the Islam that I learn AND APPLY in my life as majority of other Muslims abide to are not the ones you are talking about!And you accuse me of cherry picking,then isn’t it you who said cherry picking is good as we throw away the poisonous n rotten ones?
    Khalas, you want to go ranting on and on about hatred, then I can see that maybe Muslims aren’t the ones with problems, maybe it is you who should find a new hobby? You created a website to show your hatred of religions, for freakin’ sakes!!!who does that?Most people couldn’t care less and just live and let live.I’m a Muslim,my whole family are Muslims,my husband’s entire family and clans and tribes are Muslims,majority of people I befriends are Muslims,my community mistly are Muslims and since the day I knew this life, not one of these Muslims did any crimes against humanity or spread hatred.In fact, we are all educated and living simple lives albeit being practising Muslims.On the other hand, I have many non Muslim friends,non Muslim neighbours, non Muslim teachers,non Muslim mentors and our relationships are a blast, simply because we put aside any differences like ADULTS and can actually love one another for humanity!its infuriating to see people like you creating this picture as if just because I STRONGLY believe in Islam as a way of life then I am either a terrorist or delusional and don’t know my own religion.thank you very much but no thank you for that!
    Pertaining to this topic, I really don’t care about the adults as they are adults.It’s the little tiny innocent children that are my concern and because of this, these adults should be knocked on the head with some senses before having flings and relationships. They should be studying and focusing on education so that when the time comes to have a baby, they are prepared!there is always a chance of being pregnant when u have sex even on contraceptions, so either you are prepared for the consequences or abstain from something clearly you aren’t ready for!Women should be in control of their own lives so stop putting yourself at the risk of getting a “semester night stand” and having your heart broken with an innocent baby on the way, i do hope some girls are reading this now.

  27. First, the first person to comment, Aalia, sadly, you don’t seem to learn from your mistakes.
    You are 24 years old, on your third marriage and have two kids from two different fathers, all arabs…..
    Second, the majority of deadbeat dads in the States are not Saudis.
    Third, honestly these girls have their own share of responsability in this situation, they should know better.
    The only innocent one is the child

  28. and bigstick1, concerning your statement per the Islam and slavery, are you freaking kidding me? Slavery has existed since beginning of time, not by Islam!Slavery has long been practiced before the coming of Islam. In the pre-Islamic Egyptian, Jewish, Greek and Roman societies , slavery was in full use in different aspects. Aristotle subscribed to the idea that men were born not to be equal as some will become master due to their superior brain power and intellectual capacity while others will become slaves.When Islam came to the Arabian Peninsula, Islam actually gave rights to slaves and encouraged the freeing on one’s slaves as virtues .
    [9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, “to free the slaves”, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of God, and to the traveling alien. Such is God’s commandment. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.

    The central issue of slavery and equality is the concept of human dignity. In Islam, God has conferred honor and dignity on all human beings irrespective of their race, gender, age, social status and beliefs. In (17:70) God says, “We have honored the children of Adam, and provided them with rides on land and in the sea. We provided for them good provisions, and we gave them greater advantages than many of our creatures.”

    Slavery has been gradually abolished by Islam, it did not come by decree or injunction but rather in the form of total management principles which were applied during the early periods of Islam and still applicable today if necessary. The initiative of Islam in promoting independence for slaves was carried out in the following ways:

    (1) Encouraging the masters and the Muslim societies at large to help in freeing the slaves. The act of freeing the slave is considered a noble one which is highly valued by God. The slaves themselves entered into an agreement with the master to buy their independence by paying certain amounts of money. The society was encouraged to help in providing the freedom money.
    [24:33] “Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD’s money that He has bestowed upon you. ………”
    (2) Making the act of freeing the slave a part of punishment for any criminal act as well as for non-conformity of the Islamic rituals. There are several verses in the Holy Quran which specifically mentioned the requirement of freeing the slave as a way of meeting the punishment for wrongdoing. See 4:92, 5:89 and 58:3
    (3) Using Charity money as a financial source to free the slave. Zakat, a pillar of Islam.

    I’ll not delve into the early Europeans treatment and formation of slaves as unlike you, I don’t like to create hatred.

  29. I’m not here to force my religion on you. When I show evidence from my Holy Book, it is simply to explain to you on what I BELIEVE! Give yourself some mercy please by doing something other then condemning others believes. It is really tiring when people like you do so hard to put other people’s faiths down.What you are doing is no different than the extreme religious clerics, you are disrespecting other people’s faith, you are ridiculing other people’s choice so maybe you should be an Atheist cleric then?You are portraying extremism and contrary to what you preach, you are actually a non believer of people’s rights to choose!!! My life is simple, be a Muslim,be a Jewish, be an Atheist, be anything but just respect each other’s faith and choices!

  30. Errr what can I say — I love Gulfy guys and apparently they make really cute kids :-/

    Oh Aalia, that is the cutest statement I have ever read and made me LOL hehehe. true that true that, they make really cute kids 😀 my lil angel is the cutest ever with our mixture of genes. and something about this combination of totally different genes just seems to create such intelligent and happy babies mashallah 😀

  31. Snowman, many comments you make here give the impression you are hopelessly misinformed about America.
    Again you have it wrong, it can happen but it is not at all the norm that young mothers abandon their children as easily as the lousy fathers who do not stand for their responsibilities.
    You have to try to see this from a woman’s point of view, a woman who is a mother. If a woman carries a baby for nine months and goes through the pain of labor she often has a very close and special band with the baby.
    You must be male to so carelessly believe made up stories that all American women put up their babies for adoption. You clearly have no idea about the feelings of a mother.
    Or you do not believe that an American girl is really the same in all aspects of humanity as your own mother and sisters.

    Maybe you have also been told Western women are but breathing machines? You may think they are so far below you that they deserve no understanding, compassion and empathy? Or just simple respect?

  32. @Gwen,

    “Everytime, I meet a young American College girl who may get sweet on a foreign Muslim, I warn them in the sternest terms.”

    My habibi is an Arab Muslim and he is pretty much perfect for me. While we do have our differences, we seem to handle them well and in some cases better than couples that “seem” to have more in common (e.g. an American with an American of a similar socioeconomic and religious background). That said, we are not without our share of problems due to religious and cultural differences. Honesty, love, respect, a calm home environment, as well as striving to stay together in good times and bad are what helps us through the tough times. So in some cases, those “foreign” Muslim men aren’t so bad (though they can be a handful at times, but so can I) 😉

    However, for most Western women I would recommend someone from a relatively similar cultural, social, and religious background. I’ve just seen too many couples struggling with cultural and religious differences.

  33. Snowman, it is no longer the norm to give up children of unwed mothers for adoption. It may have been the case when Steve Jobs was born, but not any more.

  34. @Ms B

    You said:

    “Slavery has been gradually abolished by Islam, it did not come by decree or injunction but rather in the form of total management principles which were applied during the early periods of Islam and still applicable today if necessary. ”

    Might I inquire which total management principles of slavery are still applicable today? If necessary? You want to be an enlightened manager of slaves, do you?

  35. “However, for most Western women I would recommend someone from a relatively similar cultural, social, and religious background. I’ve just seen too many couples struggling with cultural and religious differences.”

    Most likely a better chance if the guy was already living permanently, has U.S. or Canadian citizenship, in North America and working for several years. That would be starting point of his committment to live outside of Saudi Arabia. It’s huge risk unless the woman met his family near the beginning of their romance and stayed in contact on friendly terms if she wants to live Saudi Arabia with children.

    I’m sorry, the law in Saudi Arabia is not helping Western women with children if something goes wrong.

    For Carol, who did not have children, it was made abit easier …to share her life with her Saudi hubby in Saudi Arabia.

    Carol: I don’t mean to be blase, but I am someone who chose not to have children…and know I am acutely aware that I definitely do not have the same life pressures and responsibilities, compared to mother of young children.

  36. @bigstick1 – ” Saudi holds no respect for women or children as they are deemed property.” —

    on behalf of my saudi husband i don’t agree with this statement 🙂

    like someone said use good judgement, treat the saudi man you are dating like you would any other man and please please use protection, yes i know the pill is not failproof, but I’m sure you can make him use protection too. and protection failing is an aberration not the norm,

    pl educate yourself, how can someone think that immigration in this day and age is easy? from anywhere for anyone, so before you go sleeping with the guy, no matter how much you love him , make sure he can and wants to stay with you.

    Inspite of it all if you get pregnant then apart from garnishing his wage when he returns to the US there is NOTHING you can do. If you don’t want to raise the kid there is a good chance his family will raise the child as their own , so look at that option before going the adoption route .

  37. @bickstick
    is your husband perfect and complete opposite of the scary saudi man, please go take your meds. and yes, you are beautiful

  38. Gia:

    I am so glad you asked. My husband is virile, rugged, handsome, muscular, exciting, tall, confident, well-endowed, exceptional in his performance to fully gratitify all needs. He is a free-thinker and doesn’t define women on their dress or by make believe religion. He is a great provider and great father.

    So Gia, how is your wife.

    Is she what Saudi men such as AL want? Is she a bleached blond with a fake face, stuffed top and custom made bottom? Who is deficient in intelligence and religion. Who deems her sex a sex object who must cover her sex part that is her and keep her voice which is deemed also a sex part low. Who is ungrateful and spends of your wealth as she married you for money and hopes that one day she will unburden herself from you due to the well known and talked about saudi man performance issues. Therefore she is hoping that you might take another wife so she can then shop until she drops?

    So Gia does this describe your wife?

  39. Aalia:

    Go to the Grand mutfi article on this blog and it fully describes the fiqh. Is the one that all the school of Islamic law use as a source.

  40. Radhaa:

    I know that, however, I am sick of the crap that is coming out of Saudi and muslims not having overwhelming objections. I am also sick of muslim women that liken men to dogs and women to meat. Therefore, since they don’t overwhelmingly object I have decided that their silence is acceptance and thus they are what their religion states and that is all of its ugly form with very little of the good, the bad and the mostly ugly of their written text to the religion and support material. Therefore, I intend to go along with the reports of their clerics, actions of their government, and muslim women who liken themselves as meat and men to rabid, drooling uncontrollable pathetic dogs. Since this is what Saudi actions stated and their followers observe then I will just state the obvious.

    Frankly it is their problem if they can handle all the recent fact of how their religion of hate is being spewed. If they don’t like it then they need to change it. Until then I will state the obvious and most accepted view of their religion.

  41. hey bickstick, you sure you’re not married to a suadi? and living in the land of milk and honey..humm. i think you are. smile

  42. Wow, you do fit the typical stereotype of a blonde although that is problem insulting blondes.

  43. problem = probably

  44. @bigstick – you may be right 🙂 but …

    there are 2 ways to see anything. My husband does not protest inthe street and shout fromt he rooftops, blog or comment when muslims kill people or when women ate treated hsoddily inthe name of islam or any of the hundered other ills that saudi perpetuates on the world. because…
    1. he has no time for that
    2. he is not one to protest inthe street , he seriously believes it’s not for him
    3. he thinks the ONLy way HE can help society and be a contributing member is by being a great surgeon and by raising his kids well and making them know and question right from wrong.
    4. he thinks he does the same amount of good to people by saving lives and giving them the freedom of good health as the people protestinginthe street.

    so all i’m saying is just because someone is not screaming fromthe rooftop or overwhelmingly objecting to every bad thing that spews out of someone’s mouth doesn’t mean they don’t condone it.

    he will not say a thing if someone burns the koran ion front of his eyes except to treat someone if they got burnt in the process and neither will he protest if s muslim burns a bible 🙂 somepeople are that way , to them religion is personal , even his families interpretation of islam doesn’t bother him.

    he married me a non muslim without any concern. and has stood by what he believes are the true principles of islam , cheryy picking ? much but he shows by deed what people scream from loudly.
    my kids don’t follow islam, he doesn’t care!! is that wrong per islam .. absolutely but like i said he values tolerance higher than absolutes..that is his way of practicing the religion. but in all this i can say he is a very good muslim.

    when i say HIm i don’t mean praise and justification for just my husband, there are millions like him, mionding their own business and doing their best to be happy after all that is what god/supreme being/ nature etc., etc., wants for us inthe universe right?

    sorry for the long comment, i just wanted to point out that this stus quo may never change or maybe get worse or get better who knows, but just keep in mind there are all kinds of people following all kinds of stuff they believe is thruth, it is what works fro you andwhat makes you happy – that is all that matters inthe end – living with no regrets.

  45. Dear ALL,

    I won’t take the time to reply everybody’s comments because i will spend for ever and we are never going to get the same opinion about this topic. Also i never gonna make some of you change your minds and of course you won’t change mine. The only thing i can say is that non of you can’t judge situations you’ve never been in… just because every girl who went or is going though this situation has different facts…. The only things we share is that we have sons/daughters of a Saudi guy and they abandoned us.

    I’m a mother of a 2 months old baby, and I spent 5 years of my life with the father of my son and i will omit the details of my relationship with him but what can i say is that was very serious and i never thought he would do something like this to me or to his own blood whether our child is illegal or not…. If I decide to opened the blog under the name of “Abandoned Children By Their Saudi Father” is because guess what? the father of my son is a Saudi, if he was American, European, Caucasian, or for other country of course i will name his county beside Saudi Arabia. And i want to clarify that i’m not against Saudis (I love too much some of them who are my friends), as some of you point out this situations is happening around the world but unfortunately for Saudis my son is half of them. I was using birth control pills and something got wrong and voila i become pregnant, he asked me to have an abortion which i refused, and he decided to stayed in my life until the four month of pregnancy. And also to have a baby every women need the sperm of a guy, I don’t think this guys are so innocent to don’t know that if you have “sex” or “make love” you have a possibility to impregnate a girl, so the statements of “you don’t want to become pregnant don’t have Sex” or “is the fault of the American girls” (btw i’m not american) is not true, because both parties agreed to slept together, at least my Saudi wasn’t forced to slept with me for 5 years. These situations are 50% from the girl and 50% from the guy responsibility, i’m sorry to disappoint the people who blame just the girls because if they were good Muslims they will never touch a girl or less sleep with a girl before marriage, right? … I’m not judging Islam but some of your pointed out. The other statement that any one of you can judge is “if you don’t want to raise the child go to give him/her to adoption, to having a baby in your womb for 9 months is the most amazing feeling in the world, and after that when you child come to the world and hold your hand right the way after he/she come out… not all of us (girls) are the same, maybe some of the don’t want to raise the child or they got pregnant to force the guy to be with them, but at any point this is my case, at the beginning we both (my ex and I) decided to be together and have our son, then he left without any explanation, and I decided to raise my son by my own, and most important I chose my son over the love of my life because he wants me but he doesn’t want a kid because is illegal, so when he said that I asked him, was not illegal to sleep with me all this years?, was not illegal to be drinking?, was not illegal most of the things you do in US? And he replied but a kid is the most illegal thing of all…. And I thought, this was not the kind of guy I fell in love with. So who is worse? Me that I trusted on him, his promises, and love, or him after saying a bunch of stupid things without thinking that In this world there is an innocent who doesn’t choose his parents?

    I read a quote this week and i really liked because is so so true and i want to share it here, is just perfect for the occasion:

    “Before you assume, learn the facts. Before you judge, understand why. Before you hurt someone, feel. Before speak, think.”

    First of all, i’m not trying to get my ex back to me because he taught me the kind of “lovely” (sarcasm) man i don’t want in my life and also because i’m sure i deserve a man better that him (i concluded that after what he had done to me and his own child)… He left with lies, and until this day he is still calling me, texting me and contacting me saying he loves me, misses me, that i’m the love of his life, and that i still have the same place in his life but without “the child” (as he called him). And the worse, he has plenty of money to spend drinking but he has not money to buy a diapers or a $1 gift to his child… Great guy, huh? Second, many people judge every single thing while they don’t know nothing of how all this happened: other people judge the women because they wants the father be involve in his son/daughter life; other people judge these women (including myself) saying that we just want the money of this guys…but i bet that what other woman really want are that their children don’t suffer because the absence and rejection of his father; of any of you stop to think for example, What I would tell my son/daughter about his/her father when she(he asks? what my son/daughter would feel when he sees all his friends with his fathers and he can’t? or other similar questions???? … I don’t think so, why? just because the fact that non of you are passing through this situation. Third, These women are hurt enough by this guys, plus being judge by most of the people, plus feeling guilty of the abandonment of these guys, plus many other different things, to add more poison to the wound by useful and hurting comments.

    In conclusion, if i want to do something to get the rights of my son to be known and live a very happy life as other kids is because he is innocent of his parents sins, mistakes, or whatever name you want to called this…. I don’t think is fair that these guys run away, live a very good life (drinking, partying, etc) then go back to KSA marry a “virgin” girl and hide to her that he abandoned a Child in America, China, Canada, Italy, or whatever country… what do you think his wife will think if she find out that he also lie to her and knowing that her habibi commit a big sin first to have sex before marriage and then to abandoned an innocent? …. Of course money is always going to help to provide our children a better life but the main point in my case (and other girls case) is that the family of my ex know about my son, and what they decide to do would be up to them, because as some of you pointed out no one can be forced to do something that they don’t want. Maybe after they know they just choose to ignore that he ever born, or maybe they would have other reaction, just God knows what is going to happens, but i truly believe that both parties must take responsibility of their actions, specially if they were in their 5 sense to have a relationship.

    May God bless you all and I wish non of you spend a similar situation either personally or with a relative. I don’t even wish this to my worse enemy (i don’t have one, but even if i have i don’t wish this to any one).

  46. Radhaa:

    I understand your perspective. However, I am happy fighting the battle of words for now and pointing out the current trends. I am not a person who will go silently into the night. Who knows maybe all my fighting and pointing out different sources and practices will actually have people opening up books linked to their religion or their history or archeological evidence and they may obtain a different view even if that view was initially meant to spite me. 😀

  47. Funny thing is, there are lots of women who plan to get pregnant just to get child benefits from the father or to trap him in a relationship, and this is something known, so don’tdenying it. If you ask me, both me and women should learn to keep their pants on, unless they have made are married and willing to stay in that relationship. :-/

  48. I didn’t read through all the comments and don’t know if someone already mentioned it, but the child born to unmarried parents has no Islaamic rights to financial maintenance.

  49. Safiyyah, that is very unfair of Islam. A baby does not just magically appear, there are two people involved and both should be held responsible and share in it’s upbringing. That is the only fair, honorable and moral way.

  50. Kareem, You make it sound as if every woman who is pregnant does so on purpose and with malicious intent. That is rather unfair don’t you agree?
    Besides, any man who is so irresponsible as to have sex without a condom deserves whatever’s coming to him, be it an STD or a baby + maintenance payments.
    If he doesn’t like the consequences he should keep it in his pants
    Or at least in a rubber.

  51. Safiyah. This is wrong (meaning not morally wrong, but legalistically wrong). Whether the child is entitled to maintenance (in Islam) or not is dependent on one thing, and one thing only: the father’s acceptance of that child as his. If the father acknowledges the child as his, the child is his. If he doesn’t, it isn’t.

  52. kareem:

    Yeah, women want so much to be pregnant for 9 months, weighted down with a baby, future unknown just to get monetary gain from a dead beat dad. Yeah, happens all the time on trying to entrap a guy to pay money this way. I mean after all that 400 or 500 dollars a month if your lucky is going to do so much for you today. (Yeah right). That won’t even get you an apartment.

    Really? Are you serious? Maybe in your part of the world but in the US and western countries women can support themselves without getting pregnant in order to support themselves. It is a whole lot easier to do that than it is to raise a kid by yourself with what will not be adequate child support. As diapers, formula, child care, doctor bills, clothing, toys, etc.

    What typically happens is the oops factor or they failed to use Birth Control properly or the condom broke. If the Catholics in this part of the world would stop pushing their never use contraceptives crap it would help. Then if people can act like adults and figure that sex will probably happen so ensure that your teens and young adults are knowledgable about sex how to use contraceptives properly and the morning after pill this would assist in lowering unwanted pregnancies. Condoms of course would help that and the spread of disease.

    Here’s my problem with your logic as well. What the hell is the guy doing if not setting himself up to become a father if he doesn’t use a condom. What you don’t think guys can’t control that? You have a different understanding of what men can do than mine. He can either say no I choice not to risk it or only with a condom and maybe some spermicide.

    What are you saying men are too stupid not to be responsible of their own future as well? Damn weak agrument if you ask me on the whole it is a woman’s fault. Seems to me if a man’s gets a woman pregnant then states she set him up then he is either stupid or wanted to be set up.

  53. Now Afke, nowhere did I say that all women get pregnant with the intent to trap men. Please read things for what they are. But I sure that you are aware that such women exist. Also, it’s known that Western women run after Arabic men thinking that they are all oil tycoons or some bs like that. And yes, you are right-Any man who can’t keep it zipped or in rubber, deserves anySTDs he gets.

  54. Now Afke, nowhere did I say that all women get pregnant with the intent to trap men. Please read things for what they are. But I sure that you are aware that such women exist. Also, it’s known that Western women run after Arabic men thinking that they are all oil tycoons or some bs like that. And yes, you are right-Any man who can’t keep it zipped or in rubber, deserves any STDs he gets. And that goes for any woman that can’t keep her legs shut or is unable to make sure that the man she opens them for is wearing a rubber. As some said before, “It takes two to tango”.

  55. @kareem
    Funny thing is, there are lots of women who plan to get pregnant just to get child benefits from the father or to trap him in a relationship, and this is something known, so don’tdenying it. If you ask me, both me and women should learn to keep their pants on, unless they have made are married and willing to stay in that relationship

    that is right on. and word clue is lots, not all women. so you have 10 females and 4 do the tango and 6 dont. that ends up being lots. and for sure in the u.s of A

  56. Bigstick
    The two are equally stupid as well as irresponsible, but these things happen and are know, and I’m sure that you are aware of it.

  57. Kareem:

    Having sex between consensual adults married or not is their choice but they are equally responsible for the action. If a man wants to ensure no children or a least a low probability then he needs to implement birth control measures on his side and also talk with her regarding birth control shots or other options. However, should measures fail then their other other options such as abortion, adoption or raising the child. Any man worth his salt will assist in this endeavor as this is his child whether the relationship is amenable or not. At this point it is too late for him to decide whether that is what is wants once a baby is in the picture. He is a father. The question is what type.

    However, I am having a hard time understanding how a man who can put on a condom and use spermicide views himself a victim or entrapped when he was 1/2 the action which created the new dilemma. Kareem you are the one that tried to lay the whole women entrap men quite frankly they trap themselves if they don’t use precauions. Considering I am well aware of what men can do to protect themselves I have very little sympathy for them. This is another of those arguments that somehow men are stupid and cannot protect themselve against the spiders that are women.

    I swear I am tired of the belief that men cannot control themselves as they are rabid drooling dogs and so stupid they can’t even protect themselves from those all powerful women. Not only is it damn insulting it screams that men are weak feeble minded idiots in the presence of women.

    Now that might be the case in Saudi since men fail to have normal relationsips with women and they are taught to be the above, however, most actually men are not this stupid or weak.

  58. Bigstick
    Why do you keep putting on the man? Typical femenist attitude. The woman has just as much responsibility of making sure that she doesn’t get pregnant as does the man, perhaps more. They do make female contraceptives, right?After all, she is the one who has to worry about getting pregnant- So why not take the initiative?

  59. Kareem:

    Who cares about the woman portion of it. If the man doesn’t want a kid then he has only himself to blame. Your initial agrument made it sound as though men had no control over the fate only destine upon women. Note this has nothing to do with the woman or her position. If a man doesn’t want a kid then take control of the situation.

    Your agrument is a re-direct on who is to blame. Yes they both however the position I present is not a feminist position. It is one that states that you had better be adult enough to take responsiblity and men are equally responsible. (Note: I stated they both had equal responsiblity in my openning statement).

    Your initial statement:

    “Funny thing is, there are lots of women who plan to get pregnant just to get child benefits from the father or to trap him in a relationship, and this is something known, so don’tdenying it. If you ask me, both me and women should learn to keep their pants on, unless they have made are married and willing to stay in that relationship. :-/”

    Now this is your first statement. My discussion is based on the fact that a man cannot control what a woman does or doesn’t do in her protection. Thus he had damn well ensure he is responsible enough to safeguard himself. Therefore he can protect himself against such a woman if in fact he has the misfortune of having sex with said woman.

    Therefore my argument has not to do with it all his fault but that he had better take all the precautions necessary otherwise he has no one but himself to blame for the situation. Even if it was her intent to trap him. Ht was still his intent to pursue the action and if not precautions are taken then it is his stupidity that got him there.

    In other words if you as the guy don’t want a kid then make sure you do what is necessary to minimize that possibility.

  60. Bigstick
    And like wise, if a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant-take control of the situation! You really do have a one-track mind, don’t you? Really, it’s amusing. ^^

  61. Kareem:

    That is a given. However my statements to you is based upon that somehow women can entrap men. Men are not entrapped they enter willingly and have certain given means of protection to them. Stop making this about the women. Your are redirecting off of your initial statement.

  62. Kareem:

    By the way where do you get your statistics on women getting pregnant to entrap men anyway. I would like to see the study and the numbers conducted on this particular issue. I know a lot of guys and none of them were trapped to my knowledge. So just asking. Apparently you know more about this than I. Yes I have heard of it being done but to my knowledge this is not a rampant problem in the US in fact I not aware of it being a real problem at all. At least with American guys. Frankly, I was raised with the teachings that if you can’t afford what can be created from the byproduct of your penis then think twice about it.

  63. Women “trapping” men is not going to happen very often at all. Only a very stupid woman would do that. And even then the guy would have to do his share to get “trapped”.

    And I’m sorry to the women involved- it is true this situation isn’t fair- but who expects life to be fair? It isn’t. Both men and women are equally at fault- but practically speaking the woman has the bigger consequence, and she knows this. She is the one who is going to get pregnant if something goes wrong and so she should think carefully about what she’s doing. Also sorry, I can’t imagine dating a Saudi man for years and not having an idea he might do this. It’s a good idea to learn about a man’s culture if you’re serious about him.

    The fact is, a certain percentage of men worldwide do this. With genetic testing we can now compel men who are in the US to do their share. Otherwise, you can’t. Women need to remember ANY time they are having sex they could be pregnant. And in some ways it does not matter if the father is also responsible because he will never be the one getting pregnant. So be aware. The guy might be scum- but you will be facing the consequences.

    Also, be aware of getting a Saudi family involved. In Saudi the children belong to the father. In his absence- to his family- not to the mother. Know what you’re dealing with.

  64. Bigstick
    I don’t really have a statistic. What I know is what I’ve heard from other women who say they know such people, but I’m sure that you have the ability to google it. You will find some surpising reads.

  65. I haven’t had time to read all the comments, sorry, but really wanted to leave my advise for women in these situations…whether the father is a Saudi or from another nationality.
    Ask yourself, is it really worth the trouble chasing after your child’s father if he wants nothing to do with you (and the child)?
    I understand you might feel hurt or even need the help really bad. but I say really, it’s not worth it.
    Saudi embassy is not going to get involved, the same way that if an American leaves a girl pregnant, let’s say, in Italy, and she goes to the American embassy demanding the child’s rights….if the father is turning the blind eye, well, that’s it, time to move on in my opinion and get on with your life.
    The father doesn’t deserve to have ANYTHING with the baby, it’s his loss and you have a child who will love you and take care of you when you are old, etc, etc.
    Enjoy your baby and forget about the father.

  66. I second Mira Bassam suggestion. You are better off without them. They are not adults and the type of person they have shown you states they have no intention of ever becoming one. Cut your relations with the loser and build your life through education and find a healthy relationship with an adult.

    @ Abandon:

    What rights are you wanting for your son anyway. Doesn’t your own country provide him with rights?

  67. I agree with Mira , what is the point to chase after someone who doesn’t even want to except the fact that they have a child? It’s sad but it’s their loss. The best thing you can do is just move on and build a good life for both you and your child. There are alot of single mothers out there who are doing a fine job raising their kids all by themselves, granted it would be great to have the father in the kids life , but this is not a perfect world.

  68. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/the-saudi-question/whos-who-the-house-of-saud/prince-bandar-bin-sultan-bin-abdul-aziz-al-saud/2877/

    prince bandar was an illegitimate child. and still is since his his dad never married his mom, only recognized the product he made

  69. Prince Bandar’s mother was a slave, not a servant, and under Shariah that makes him legitimate.

  70. I have a question regarding prince Bandar’s mother. Was she born into slavery or was she a concubine? Because from the sources I have read and heard from, she was either one of those two things.

  71. I just saw your response sandy .. Don’t you love how they cover it up by saying she was a “servant” lol

  72. Sandy is correct, and before slavery was formally abolished in KSA, these types of relationships were very common with royals. Bandar’s mother was what they called a sarira, i.e. “she of the bed”.

  73. ya, he was born before the mid 60’s. go figure

  74. Omeish:

    Really has slavery ended? When women cannot do anything without the say so of men then slave is still in full force in Saudi. Just saying. Legalized slavery still exists in Saudi Arabia.

  75. Bigstick1:

    I agree with you bigstick, but it’s not only in saudi arabia , but rather the whole gulf region. There has always been an issue with human rights when it came around that area. The way they treat foreign workers are horrible as well! For example when you look at the cases in dubai some of those workers have come to Dubai by means of debt bondage and indentured servitude …

  76. @gia
    you seem too confused reading my post .
    I have not done orsaid any thing what you understood

    and we stick to our topic!! we are not america aaightt

  77. @Kareem,

    “Also, it’s known that Western women run after Arabic men thinking that they are all oil tycoons or some bs like that.”

    This is very insulting to me considering that the Arab men run to me because of my figure- even when I’m very modestly dressed (which I am like 95% of the time). I can’t hide what is apparent, and apparently Arab men like that. I’m sure it helps that I’m intelligent, educated, and nice to others, too. I also do not think Arab men are rich, and prefer the ones who aren’t because the way I figure it, his family will be more open to an American woman with a Master’s degree and they’ll know I actually love their son and he loves me- it has nothing to do with money. If my goal in life was money, I’d have plenty by now- but it’s not. So please quit making assumptions and insulting people in the process.

    @Abandoned Saudi Kids,
    I wasn’t necessarily judging anyone, but more or less giving my opinion of what I’d do if that happened to me. Actually, what I’d do is make sure I had 100% custody and then work towards providing the best life for me and my child- without the -insert string of bad words here (along with nationality)- man.

  78. Strangeone
    I didn’t say every western women believes that all were oil tycoons, but some, and they are usually the feeble mindid ones. And if any man really wants to look for a woman with a really nice figure, there are better choices out there, just saying. But in my opinion, beauty isn’tthe first thing a man should be searching for in a woman. Intellect and the ability to make sound decisions are of great importance.

  79. Mira is absolutely right!

  80. Bigstick
    You really do like to cherrypick, don’t you? How about the hadiths that say the man should make sure to please his woman sexually? And the woman is not punished for not providing the husband sex when he asks for it, but is cursed by the angels. And this is mainly because the man might go out and sin to get his satisfaction. Something that happens far too often among nonMuslims. And (saw) never beat Aisha, he may have hit her with straw, but that was it. And the hit was never violent. I mean, come on! How much damage can straw do? Also, I’ve never heard of a woman dog or donkeybefore lol. And as a mater of fact, all dogs, male or female will ruin your prayes. Also, I’ve never heard of the donkey thing. And about women being the majority in hell? Just look around you at how so many women use their charms, walking around half naked whoring themselves, acting like completesluts. Also, among those women in the fire will be those ungrateful to their husbands, and those who hold their children as ransom. Something which happens way to often in this time and era.

  81. Dang, my lastpost wasn’t ment to go here, sorry about that. :-/

  82. Kareem, women cannot whore or slut themselves without a willing male partner. Prostitution would not exist without paying clients. So hit the “on” button on your logic switch before you sentence the woman to hellfire, and the man to…what?

  83. NN
    Walking around in mini-skirts and string bikinis is whoring yourself in my book. And I have little respect for women who allow themselves to be branwashed into thinking that’s a form of freedo, when in actually, they are only doing what the perverted minds of men want them to do. Women in the west are treated as sex objects-and they perpetuate that by the close they chose to wear. It’s pretty funny that the bikini was created by men. :-/

  84. Kareem:

    Actually the natural way is without clothes completely. Clothing is a man-made invention.

    Next, what a woman wears does not define her value.

    Actually, the bag Islam makes women wear states women are nothing more than a sex object that must be covered. The are walking vaginas nothing more. Remember they are awrah lacking in intelligence and religion who must be restricted in movement and held prision by men.

    Just remember the brides price is for the use of her vagina as that is what she is most valued for to keep men from straying. Of course they can have 2,3 or 4 wives and a host of slaves.

    I see the hypocrisy here. It is dripping with it.

  85. Bigstick
    “Actually the natural way is without clothes completely. Clothing is a man-made invention.”

    Please, don’t give me that nonsene. People had the decency to cover

  86. Bigstick
    “Actually the natural way is without clothes completely. Clothing is a man-made invention.”
    Please, don’t give me that nonsen. People have coverd themselves up in one way or another since the beginig of time. Also, we are far pass the era of ignorance. And yes, if a woman (or man for that matter) dresses in a certain way, that does determine their worth. People are judged by the way they dress or present themselves-and I find woman and men who go prancing around half-naked as worthless and disgusting. And I know Muslims as well as nonmuslims who are of the same opinion. It’s no wonder most children these days grow up perverted-they have plenty of influnce. :-/

  87. Bigstick
    another thing-why do you talk about dowries as though it’s something practiced in Islam alone, you really can’t be that shallow-minded, can you? The idea of dowries was present long before Islam, so don’t act stupid for the sake of argument. It only proves how misinformed you really are.

  88. Kareem, you said: “Walking around in mini-skirts and string bikinis is whoring yourself in my book. And I have little respect for women who allow themselves to be branwashed into thinking that’s a form of freedo, when in actually, they are only doing what the perverted minds of men want them to do.”

    I am actually perfectly fine with this. Everyone is entitled to “his book”. They are like anuses. Everybody’s got one. Whatevz.

    Plus, many things keep me up at night, but the lack of your respect is not, and will never be one of them. It’s not like oxygen. I don’t really have to have it. So go right on.

  89. P.S. There’s nothing perverted on behalf of a man about wanting to see a woman in a string bikini. That’s as straightlaced as it gets. Wanting to see YOU in a string bikini, for instance, would be perverted. But only mildly.

  90. Kareem:

    Why do you keep re-directing? Can’t stand the heat? Pointing fingers at others systems still doesn’t change what the text states about the dowry. The dowry is for the use of the vagina. Frankly it sounds like you bought yourself a sex slave. That is what marriage sounds like in Islam. Of course with the provisions of multiple sex slaves called wifes and then actually slaves then there you go. No reason to worry about where to stick you dick as it can prick just about any woman. Perfect system for sick pervert men and imprisonment/hell for women.

  91. The dowry is for the use of the vagina.

    No reason to worry about where to stick you dick as it can prick just about any woman

    Carol, there seems to be a need for moderation here as some people just cannot seem to use respectful words, look at the denigrating language^^

  92. Mrs. B:

    Interesting Muhammad had thirteen(depending on sources) or so reported wives and a host of sex slaves. Do have a problem with men’s well know rights in your religion? Or is it how other actually see the religion? I believe one of his followers would get married everyday and then divorce the women after sex. It was deemed perfectly legal by the standards of Islam.

    I can tell you are the type that would back blasphemy laws.

  93. Kareem, Actually the human species evolved in Africa, in tropical heat. They would not have worn clothes, as many indigenous people who still live a natural life in such climates still don’t do. They maybe will wear paint and beads for decoration, and most humans often cover the genitals, but there is nothing unnatural about being naked.
    Clothing as such was invented to protect the body from outside influences, nothing more.

    In many humid tropical places the indigenous people never wore clothes, and when the western missionaries started to convince them to wear clothes they got sick and died because in a very hot humid climate it is better to go naked than to wear clothes which are constantly wet and mold and rot in that climate.

    The concern and obsession about nakedness is a purely human construct, and dependent on the culture people created.
    In ancient Egypt people naturally wore very little in the way of clothes, being naked was normal. Clothes were more a sign of status and for special occasions, and women wearing wigs were considered erotic, not just being naked.

    In Japan where there was always little space there was also very little privacy, it was normal for men and women to bathe in public bathing houses together. Hence nakedness was normal and not even considered erotic. Japanese erotic prints show couples having sex in elaborate layers of beautiful clothes, not just boring, normal nakedness.

    And according to a friend of mine who lives in Yemen, where women have to be completely covered in a black bag, the men already get aroused by looking at a black wall or a black garbage bag.

    So you see you are simply being programmed by the man-created-culture you grew up in. Your sexuality, the triggers for your sexual arousal, have been molded by the culture you grew up in. Had you been brought up in the Netherlands or Japan you would not blink an eye when seeing a woman in a bikini sunning herself on a beach, and you would have no trouble controlling your sexual urges when a pretty girl in a mini-skirt walks past you.

    So this is all just a matter of chance, of in what country and culture you grew up in. What you think is proper clothing (for women) would be very different if you had been raised in a different part of the Earth. Therefore it is really not a good argument that your personal, culturally based opinion of ”proper” dresscodes for women should hold any value outside of your particular area/culture. And you have no right whatsoever to judge people from other cultures on their choice of dress.
    Or undress.
    Their opinions and cultures are as valid as yours. And maybe more if it turns out they lead to a healthier lifestyle and healthier social interaction.

  94. Kareem, what do you mean with ”a dog ruining your prayers”? There is no such comment in the Quran.
    Dogs are loving loyal animals, how can they ruin your prayers?

  95. @Kareem, you said: “Walking around in mini-skirts and string bikinis is whoring yourself in my book. And I have little respect for women who allow themselves to be branwashed into thinking that’s a form of freedo, when in actually, they are only doing what the perverted minds of men want them to do.”

    You’re welcome to your opinion. And here’s mine. You are obviously very judgemental about surface things rather than charactar. You obviously judge a woman’s charactar by her clothes. You obviously don’t think women can decide for themselves what they want to wear- and have a man deciding for them. Let me tell you women are sick of men like you. I’m guessing you’re also the type Muslim that thinks there IS compulsion in religion if it means you get to tell the women what to wear. We women are sick of men like you- whatever your faith.

    @Aafke, the only mention in the Quran about dogs has them as companions and sleeping with people in a cave. And we are allowed to eat game brought in from hunting dogs by their mouths.

  96. Men who are offended by what women wear (or don’t wear) have only their own dirty minds to blame. Normal grown-up men can deal with it and enjoy the view.

  97. @Kareem “Walking around in mini-skirts and string bikinis is whoring yourself in my book. And I have little respect for women who allow themselves to be branwashed into thinking that’s a form of freedo, when in actually, they are only doing what the perverted minds of men want them to do.”

    What you said got my goat so bad I just had to respond, though I see others have already done a good job. I am sooo sick of men(and women) telling women what they should wear and what to do with their bodies. Of course your individual opinion matters very little to me,but I am just perceiving an uptick of men (and women) of all religious stipes with this attitude telling others what they should do and slandering them when they don’t toe the line. It IS freedom to wear what you want. It IS freedom to make choices for your own body. It isn’t brainwashing If you look at the facts and make your own descisions. I wear clothing based on what will make me the most comfortable in any given situation, be it a bikini on the beach or a headscarf and modest attire in a conservative area. Guess which one I’ve experienced the most sexual harrasment while wearing- and I’ll give you a hint- it says more about the people around me than any garment I could possibly put on.

    Of course elements in Islam existed before Islam, the authors had to get it from somewhere. Too bad they didn’t have the foresight to cleary forbid slavery for all times/all places. :-S

  98. All.
    Lol. So it seems that many of you are such hypocrites. You would like others to respect your opinion even if they feel offended by it- but you aren’t willing to respect the opinions of others if it offends you in one way or another. I’d bet many here would probably look down right disgustingly in a string bikini, or any bikini for that matter. Further more, I don’t judged people by what they wear, but by how the present themselves-male or female. Just as you have your opinions, I have mine-and we are all entitled to them.

  99. Afke
    Yes, people used to walk around in the nude, but that was during the time of the ignorant and the uncivilized. Nowadays, in most places, you’d be arrested for indecent exposure. Tell me, if a man or woman appeared in front of you and your children completely butt-naked, would you be ok with that, would any of you?

  100. Kareem:

    You have already stated that you do judge people by what they wear and ensured that we all know exactly what you think of women. It is one thing to have your opinion however, the fact remains that this is not an opinion in many places as it is being enforced by many muslim countries on women in the form of acid attacks, death, dismemberment, torture, etc.

    In addition, this type of opinion whereby you judge a person’s character on their dress also imposes a hostile situation to them as many of your type create zones that harass women to force them to comply with such a standard even against their will.

    This opinion is the first step in ensuring that women are valued not upon their intelligence, self or worth but the clothing they wear.

    Quite frankly some of the most supposed pious and most religious have been the most morally corrupt hypocrits on this planet that enjoy having the ability to enforce systems to which are oppressive, hateful, suspicious, often times housing the worst criminal offenses as well as the worst human atrocities around.

  101. bigstick1:

    Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. All I ask is that they put something on a bench before sitting down on shared sitting areas.

    That is just common descency.

  102. Rosaliz
    ” Of course elements in Islam existed before Islam, the authors had to get it from somewhere. Too bad they didn’t have the foresight to cleary forbid slavery for all times/all places. :-S”

    Now, if you were better informed, you would know that Islam was the first religion and only religion at that time that actually made an effort to put an end to slavery.

  103. Kareem, people should be able to dress the way they want to dress (including a black bag) and men should be able to keep it in their pants unless with their partners also. They should not be so weak that a woman must be covered. AND … wives should not have to put out to keep them men from going astray. Husbands should be able to control themselves in that department as well. And what of the wife who lives with the man who can’t/won’t perform for her? Does she have the right to stray and get her jollies?

    Of course you are entitled to your opinion as are others. Obviously people like arguing on this forum otherwise they would NOT participate.

  104. Kareem, I am sorry you did not bother to read my comment, which I took some pains over to make it clear and logical, while trying to respect your cultural background.

    About slavery, it is very clear that Mohammed never really tried to end slavery; on the contrary, as soon as he was in a position of power he kept slaves, he traded slaves, and he made free people he conquered into slaves. And he had sex with slaves, insisting that the most beautiful women his men enslaved as war-booty were handed over to himself. The hadith are quite explicit on his actions.
    I appreciate your personal preference for trying to see your religion as one which is anti-slavery, but it really isn’t.

    Sandy, the dog was not just sleeping in the cave as one of the companions, the angels had no problem with the dog either, so why do modern Muslims?
    This unfounded phobia for dogs comes over as really weird.

  105. Wendy
    ” And what of the wife who lives with the man who can’t/won’t perform for her? Does she have the right to stray and get her jollies?”

    Who said that anyone has the right to stray, I sure didn’t?

  106. Wendy, Does she have the right to stray and get her jollies?
    Snort! 😀

    What’s more, I think that when a man takes another wife the wife is entitled to add at least a boyfriend to the menagerie. That is only fair.
    Just to get the jollies she’s entitled to.

  107. Afke
    Yes, the prophet did have slaves as did everyone before Islam, and at the the Quran was being reveled.Muhammad (saw) freed his slaves gradually and he advised others to do the same, as well as giving to them from their wealth. The bottom line is that Islam started freeing slaves centuries before the rest of civilization thought about doing so.

  108. Kareem, when you say; ”Further more, I don’t judged people by what they wear, but by how the present themselves-male or female.”,
    that actually means you judge people by what they wear….

  109. No Kareem, your prophet enslaved whole tribes he only advocated freeing slaves in the very beginning, when he did not have power and needed support from whoever would give it to him, even slaves. As he gained power he made full use of the slavery system.
    He traded slaves, he accepted slaves a gifts, he gave slaves away to ensure loyalty, and worst of all, he made free people into slaves.

    And I am sorry but if somebody is supposed to be an example, even to far more enlightened people and civilizations 1400 years later, he really needs to be a lot better than the people and morals of his time. As you claim he was only acting as everybody in his time acted he is clearly not good enough to be regarded as an example for our times.

  110. @ Kareem-“Now, if you were better informed, you would know that Islam was the first religion and only religion at that time that actually made an effort to put an end to slavery.”

    You assume I am not informed- While I applaud you for not being a fan of slavery, one bad religion being “better” than other bad religions makes a poor case for moral superiority. If it wasn’t claimed that an o-so-wonderful god with his perfect, uncorrupted holy book was allowing this to happen, than one might have a case for being ahead of its times, but I’m sorry, an all-knowing god should do better.

  111. Kareem, you did state that wives do not have to be available to their husbands but if they are not they should remember that the husband will stray which to me implies that if he can’t get sex when he wants at home he’s got the right to find it elsewhere and when it’s stated the way you said then it implies to me that you agree that it is so.

  112. Kareem said “The bottom line is that Islam started freeing slaves centuries before the rest of civilization thought about doing so.”

    Hee hee. Ironically, the country that’s a birthplace of Islam legally abolished slavery way, way after the rest of civilization did. I’m talking, like, 1960s or so. Way to go, KSA! I guess they made “gradual” eradication of slavery a rule. Emphasis on “gradual”. It was so gradual, it survived from 700 BC till 1960.

  113. “I’d bet many here would probably look down right disgustingly in a string bikini, or any bikini for that matter. Further more, I don’t judged people by what they wear, but by how the present themselves-male or female.”

    Are you familiar with the expression “contradiction in terms”? You think we look disgusting in a bikini. But no, you don’t judge people by what they wear.

    Why is it important how we look in bikinis?

  114. Kareem:

    “Bigstick

    “That post was to Gia and she knew I was a man. She was going on about my husband as a dig or insult. Therefore I described myself and then asked her about her wife. Since she (a wife) has been described in the past as a married gold digger. Now go back and re-read the section again with that understanding.”

    Sorry, my bad, but you really didn’t make that quite clear. :-/””

    MY RESPONSE:

    Apparently. I need to stop trying to be a smart ass as I apparently lack the talent for it.

  115. Kareem, so you find people being half-naked worthless and disgusting.

    How do you feel about a man that lets someone split open the belly of a pregnant woman for insulting him?

    Do you feel disgusted? Or is it the usual SAW/PBUH?

    Do you find it strange that so many of the murderers in this evil world of ours are named after your prophet? Most people would wonder about that, but not Muslims. So a man picks up a little girl by her hair and shoots her in the face, and you are concerned with the amount of fabric on a body.

  116. @bstick
    i thought you were a female!–with an odd name

  117. Talk about the inability to stick to the topic! the comments here have deviated waaaay away from the real topic, nothing unusual though from the previous topics.

  118. NN
    “Hee hee. Ironically, the country that’s a birthplace of Islam legally abolished slavery way, way after the rest of civilization did. I’m talking, like, 1960s or so. Way to go, KSA! I guess they made “gradual” eradication of slavery a rule. Emphasis on “gradual”. It was so gradual, it survived from 700 BC till 1960.”

    Don’t mention anything about Saudi Arabia and what they are doing today. If you really had any knowledgeable concerning Islam you know that prophet Muhammad (saw) had sad that the Arabs would go back as they were before Islam. Many Saudis and Arabs in general aren’t praticing Islam as was taught by the prophet-and are returning to tribal practices from long ago. Arabs used to bury their infant daughters before the prophet came on to the scene. Anyway, this seems to have turned into a bash Islam party and has gone waaaaaaaay of topic-so I not going to add anything else. The moderators should warn us administer a warning, lol.

  119. Re: Slavery Islamic Style …

    Dr. Saud Al-Fanisan, Dean of Islamic Law at a Saudi University: Islamic Law Permits the Possession of Slaves

    http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3378.htm

  120. Mrs Bawazir and Kareem, you are both fairly new to commenting on American bedu so you may not be aware of Carol’s blogrules.
    This thread already contains more than 120 comments, it is natural that a discussion which is generating so many comments will eventually change direction.

    Carol does allow for commentators to go off-topic when sufficient on-topic comments have been made to allow for this normal and natural progression of the discussion.

    Most people here enjoy the discussions and like to continue them. Some threads have gone over 300 comments.

  121. Kareem

    Weeeell, if you bother to go and read Deutoronomy, you’ll find that the freeing of slaves is recommended there too – and that’s a good thousand years before it got cribbed in seventh century Arabia.

    If you had any knowledge of the classical worlds of Persia, Greece and Rome, you’d likewise discover that there are no shortages of references to the merits of freeing slaves, and examples of such deeds being done. The Quran is hardly original in this respect, clearly upholds the institution as legitimate, likewise the hadith, and it is plainly silly to ignore the voluminous historical evidence that slavery was endemic in islamic societies from the seventh century onwards. .

    The disappearance of slavery from the islamic world had little to do with moral qualms or living in accordance with divine dictates – it was mostly a question of power, and the fact that it had largely evaporated from the islamic world by the 18th century. The last bastions of the trade in East Africa were suppressed by the British at gunpoint, not by lovey-dovey islamic missionaries telling their co-religionists to cease and desist, because it was displeasing in God’s eyes.

    It is not a coincidence that the last state to abolish slavery – Saudi Arabia – is the one that claims to be governed by Sharia law, as there are phalanxes of “islamic scholars” trained in the sciences of Quran and Hadith who evidently consider slavery to be a legitimate, divinely-acceptable institution. Suggesting that all these guys are doing it wrong isn’t really helpful.

  122. Kareem, as Saudi Arabia finally (and under international pressure) abolished slavery (I think in 1967) they have actually progressed, not regressed.
    Maybe there were one or two backwards tribes who buried baby girls, although as far as I know no archeological evidence has been found of such a practice, there are many historical facts which prove that many cultures, in what is now Saudi Arabia, women enjoyed a lot of respect in their societies.
    A few examples:
    – There was a very old woman who was the leader of her tribe, (Mohammed had her torn to pieces by camels for criticizing him)
    -There was Asma bint Marwan, who was a celebrated poetess. (Mohammed had her murdered in the midst of her children for writing poems criticizing him)
    -The most important gods worshiped in Mecca were three Goddesses, Al Manat, Al Uzza and Allat. The Kaaba was tended by 7 priestesses (when Mohammed came into power he had them replaced by men)
    -Khadija, Mohammed’s first wife, had the self possession to ask him to marry her, as she was from a very important family and she was very rich and influential Mohammed could not indulge his taste for women while he was married to her,( but after she died he indulged in having many wives and slaves.)

    So, women before Islam were quite important; they were leaders, poets, priestesses and could be rich, with inherited wealth on their own, and run large international companies, and make their own decisions about their own lives. And the people who came to Mecca worshiped female gods (Al Uzza, Al Manat and Allat), a culture which worships female gods must have some respect for females I would think.
    It’s the patriarchal, male oriented cultures and religions which despise women and take away their rights. Like Christianity and Islam do.

  123. @Kareem,
    In your own words you judge women to be whoring and brainwashed if they wear a certain type of clothing. That means you do judge people by what they wear (women do count as people you know).

  124. Sandy, just barely… And so it’s up to the men to make sure they are properly dressed you know, women cannot make these decisions with their poor defective little brains….

  125. One thing I can’t stand about many (not all) Arab Muslim men is that if a Christian/Jew/etc. woman is dressed in a t-shirt and jeans, they view her as very conservatively dressed for American/Western society. However, if a Muslim woman wears long sleeves and jeans, they wonder why she does not cover her hair. I do not like this judging attitude at all.

  126. so to get somewhat back on thread, do you think the way a woman has dressed has been part of what attracted the Saudi guys to their Western woman? I guess I’d still like to hear more from readers on their views of why these guys are unwilling to recognize their child. I certainly have my own views based on exposure to Saudi culture.

    The mothers of Saudi children do need to be aware that the sons would likely be viewed as Saudis. For example, if the child tries to find his father as he gets older and say the father expresses a desire to be in touch with him, the child could possibly get a Saudi passport. However, that would not infer by default that the mother had any claim or rights.

  127. Aafke Art, I do see that trend. Although I did read in previous topics Carol would again and again remind commenters to stick to the topic or go to the debate page. Seems no one is giving that rule any regard. But, I guess passion of argument gets the best of most of us 🙂

    Carol, to answer your query, I know some Saudis and other Arab nationals who are still much rooted to their own culture while studying abroad and on the other hand I see a generous handful of those who tend to go all out, as if to rebel against their own culture and strict upbringing. On why the fathers refuse to acknowledge their children, this is mostly to “save-face” as having children out of wedlock for them is an embarrassment and against their culture(although they seem to forget these elements when they have sex out of wedlock). Another reason could be the fact that they are just not ready to be fathers yet (this is hardly acceptable but it is what it is) due to lack of financial stability, immaturity, potential careers, etc. Lastly, if when the child grows up and wishes to reach out to his/her parents, emotionally speaking as a mother I would say hell no, what have these scums done to deserve etc but in reality, it is the child’s birthright to find and reach out to his/her father.Is that fair to the mother? Not at all! But as a mother myself, my child’s need is more important than my own emotional needs nor my disappointment. But, for now, I think it is best the single mothers forget the deadbeat fathers and do her best to give her child all the love and care he needs, provide for him. It is hard, it is terribly hard but this is mother. Mothers are the highest in value because of their selflessness.Even in Islam a mother is often spoken highly of, as the Prophet said Heaven is beneath the Mother’s feet. The prophet orders Muslims to value the mother three times more than the father because of this.

  128. I was trying to find some good advices here but i just found a huge amount of comments out of the topic… In my case my ex said “I can’t give him my last name because he is illegal” and i replied to him “So be with me 5 years was not illegal? making love was not illegal? be drinking is not illegal? and most of the things you do is not illegal?” … I think is easy for them to find a little excuse or absurd comment to deny their children.

  129. Abandon:

    The best advice I can give you is be a good mom. One who plays with your kids, gives them what you can like fishing, riding bikes, telling scary stories, having popcorn night, enjoy holidays, and be honest but not brutal on your ex.

    You tell your child what has occurred has nothing to do with him/her but everything to do with your ex. That your ex hasn’t matured and that, that just happens to some people and again stress that it has nothing to do with them. You tell them that the ex is missing out on one of the greatest kids in the whole world. Don’t dwell on it though. Only when your kid asks. You acknowledge their loss but you find other mentors such as a brother, uncle, grandfather and you let your child share that family.

    My father never had much to do in my life but I have extremely fond memories of growing up with my mother even though we had virtually nothing. You see we had each other. We made the best of it and enjoyed ourselves as much as we could. Looking back at it, I have some of the fondest memories of growing up all the while remembering that I played in mud, built snow forts, dodged balls, and all those not so expense things. What I enjoy the most was having my family and friends around who shared my life and we enjoyed being together.

    Oh. I love board games and playing cards too. We also had backyard camping trips and drive in movie theaters.

    My father past away many years ago very early in life and I have a different outlook on it as I aged. I realized that he was lost, confused, searching but not one person could really ever get him to understand the importance of family and facing one’s decisions. It was only at the end of his life that he finally realized the loss and we finally were able to work some of our issues out.

    It would have been helpful in many ways had my mother let go of my father’s abandonment and her angry over it as that tainted a lot of my childhood years.

    I understood early on that I actually was better off without my father in our lives but it was my mother who actually had the difficult time of letting him go and in fact she never really did. She would have had a far better life and we might have been able to move on to a new stage that could have given us a different path one that may have even been even better for her but also us.

    I hope this helps from a kid whose father had little to nothing to do with us from my age of 6 until 27. That includes not child support.

  130. @American Bedu,
    “do you think the way a woman has dressed has been part of what attracted the Saudi guys to their Western woman?”

    Yes and no. I know some Saudi guys that are attracted women dressed in abaya and niqab and others that are more attracted to women in a mini-skirt. I would say, however, that dressing in more revealing attire will lead many Arab guys that haven’t fully adapted to American culture to believe that said woman in revealing attire is a “loose” woman. If you dress conservatively for the culture, however, they will usually respect you particularly if they know you and know you do not sleep around.

    What attracted Arab and also some African males in my case was my curves. It didn’t matter how much I covered, it’s still obvious that I am an hourglass figure very similar to Marilyn Monroe. Seriously, what’s a girl to do? Even wearing an abaya isn’t going to detract the Arab attention and in some cases may make the men stare even more. (Come on- you can still tell what a girl’s general figure is even if they’re wearing a loose garment. All you have to do is watch her walk!) And what got me into trouble (i.e. attracted attention) was a combination of this, how nice I was, and my dancing ability (which I keep to myself more these days).

  131. @Abandoned Saudi kids,
    I think bigstick1 gave you great advice.

    I can’t speak from personal experience or anything, but all I can say is do the best you can and be a great, loving mother to your child. If your ex isn’t a good enough guy to stick around, forget him and focus on your life with your child. If you want us to tell you how to get your man back, that’s something you should let us know. All I am going to tell you is to move on.

    I haven’t been in your shoes yet, but to be honest if I got pregnant by a guy (especially someone from a culture where men tend to get custody), if he didn’t want to stay with me I would be happy that at least I got 100% custody and didn’t have to see his face again. I would be mad at him for breaking my heart but happy that I was blessed with the gift of a child. And you can always explain to your child how there is no reason to be mad at his father because he gave you the best gift in the world- your child. What would you say about a sperm donor? Because more or less, that’s what your ex has turned out to be.

    I am against dead-beat dads and wish there was more that could be done. You may want to make sure there is nothing preventing you from having full-custody now or in the future, though. If you try to contact his family and tell them, etc. then it may cause more problems than it solves. If they feel obligated to take the child under their care but do not love the child and/or care for the child, what would that mean for the future of your chlid? If they do love the child, how involved would they want you to be in your own child’s life? How often would you get to see your child?

    If a woman is newly-pregnant by an Arab man or some man from a culture in which pregnancy before (permanent) marriage is seen as a bad thing, I would consider speaking with your significant other about possibly getting married ASAP and/or having him talk with a close family member about the situation first. This is one area in which I’m not as familiar with. Does anyone here know how to prevent problems with the father’s side of the family in such a culture when the two people want to stay together and the woman is pregnant but not yet (permanently) married to the father?

  132. bigstick1 thanks for your response. So far i don’t hate my ex even if many people think i should but as StrangeOne said he gave me the biggest blessing and gift of my entire life… I was loving him more than i love even myself, but right now my biggest concern is my son, and i already get to the point that i don’t want him back StrangeOne, believe me he showed me the kind of men i don’t want in my life even if he claims that he loves me more than everything and i mean all to him, also that he will be involves in my son’s life… It’s kind of confusing but of course i want for my child the best life i can provide him, i want him be happy, and succeed in life, i don’t want that he feels resentment or hate toward his father, that’s why since he left i was thinking how to handle when my son asks about his father, and i concluded that the best way to answer him will be the true without hurting him, so when i was 6 month pregnant i began to do an album with my son’s father pictures and pics of us together, so in that way he will see how much we loved each other once in a while. So he will get that album when he asks about him. Just today i had a conversation with the father of my son, and i told him that i won’t tell his embassy, Dr. Mody, or even the Child Support office in US because i don’t want to destroy his life or act in the same way he acts toward “the love of his life” and that if someday he wants to see his son he would be able to do it whenever he wants but in US and with supervision. Also i told him that i’m not mad at him, that all my feelings turn to the biggest deception in my entire life because i’m so disappointed at him, and he was speechless and just could said “i don’t know why you don’t hate me after all i did to you.”

    In conclusion, i will be what until know i have been for my son… a very good mom and all to him. i know God will take me out of all this heartache and will give me all the best things me and my son deserves.

  133. @StrangeOne, “Does anyone here know how to prevent problems with the father’s side of the family in such a culture when the two people want to stay together and the woman is pregnant but not yet (permanently) married to the father?”

    In the first 6 months of my pregnancy we were trying to find a way to make all this more acceptable for his family, and we consult some people who advised us to marry as soon as possible and ask the Imam in the mosque to write in the marriage certificate a date before the pregnancy. Of course not all the Imam’s do this but some of them does, and i have heard and talked with few couples who made this.

  134. Well, if you consider the baby the biggest blessing of your life what’s the problem? I would say extend that blessing to your baby and make sure that dead-beat louse of a father never gets close to him.

    And no, you should not hate him, for that is a waste of energy and time, and he doesn’t deserve that, but you should open your eyes and see this man for what he is: a pathetic louse, who who drinks, whores around (from the islamic point of view) and then doesn’t stand for his responsibilities. How can you want to have anything to do with such a low character? Be glad to be rid of this pig. And be very happy your child will be spared of this loser having any influence in his life.

    And while you are very happy with your baby, you could support your fellow women by giving advice and warning them about the consequences. This blog is riddled by women who have been lied to by Saudi men, you could help other women by explaining the lies and the reality, the reality that most of these students will just use them and then go home and demand a chaste virgin for a proper bride.

  135. Mrs Bawair, you did not understand my comment. If somebody goes grosly off-topic in the third comment then that is a bad thing to do. If after 100 comments the discussion takes a different direction then that is quite natural.
    And yes, it is up to Carol to decide when she feels it’s ok to go off-topic, or when she wants commentators to stay on-topic. This is her blog, her living room so to speak. We are guests here and Carol has full rights to run her own blog in the way she likes.
    We can either accept this or stop visiting.

  136. @Abandoned,

    One piece of advise, Pl make sure sinc eyou are int alking terms with the father, to get all his medical records and family history recorded and kept in a file.
    In my opinion that’s all your son needs form his dad, Money/ support for him doing his share of procreation would of course be the icing on the cake.

    You won’t imagine the no of people who bring in kids with no clue about their partners medical history ? hello don’t you want the dr to have THE COMPLETE picture before entrusting yoru child !!!

    SO if that’s the only thing you do pl do it asap, you can hate him/love him/ be angry whatever that’s your personal hell or heaven but medical records is something you do for your child.

    i would also advise a way where yu can get in touch withthe father in case of a medical need. always better to have options.

  137. I think Radhaa is giving some very sound advice here, you should realize that many Saudis, due to ages of inbreeding, can carry rather nasty genetic defects, you need to know what genetic burden your child might carry so you can be prepared.

  138. Abandoned, It is the same story with any man who deserts a woman and child and not just a Saudi. A Saudi will use his family as an excuse but it is strictly that … an excuse. A man who deserts has no backbone and no true desire to carry on the relationship. My advice to you is to forget his lies and excuses, forgive him for his grave weakness and enjoy your child AND do as Radhaa says.

  139. @Abandoned

    People here gave you excellent advice. I’m also the poster who left a comment on your site a few days ago. I think the best thing you can do now is to focus on your child and on being a good mom, which I’m sure you are. Don’t worry too much about the feelings of his father. In fact, I would just cut off all contacts with him. If he asks you what you intend to tell your son about the father, tell him that you won’t have to tell him anything because you intend to remarry within a couple of years, and your husband will raise your son as his own. Don’t give this man any space in the life of your child that he did not earn. Tell him you’ll tell your son you used a sperm bank. Or that his father died. Don’t glorify him.

  140. Couldn’t agree more with NN’s comment. Really, forget about the father. It might be hard now, but trust me, you are saving trouble for yourself and your son/daughter in the future.

  141. Salaam Bedu/Carol can u plz delete my first comment plz? thnx 🙂

    Comment deleted

  142. @Aalia – done.

  143. I wrote you one about the Saudi I was seeing and was semi-engaged to at one time. Thankfully I always used birth control and condoms as a means to avoid this siuation, no matter how much I trusted or loved my Saudi, there was always that nagging doubt. He did leave me, and while he might not have had I been pregnant, I cannot imagine my life being happy having been married due to unplanned pregnancy with a Saudi man. I’m glad I found my Jordanian soulmate instead 🙂

  144. It is really a hard situation and sure the women deserve financial support and the medical records provided. That is without doubt.

    Couldn’t the embassy maybe have some cultural advisors that could hold some meetings between these men and women to find amicable solutions? In the Saudi society all is about nagotiation- there are no absolute rules.

    These are as in a difficult situation as these ladies. Of course they could have acted differently, but the social pressures in saudi are great.

    Some are escaping – not because they dont care- but they fear possible lashing and family dishonour.

    They cannot see beyond that without support.

    Then again, I might be all wrong, but a more open and honest approach could be the key here.

  145. Embassies will not involve themselves in child paternity issues.

  146. How will then a woman, that is facing this situation and has all the details of the husband proceed? Say she files for a paternity test order- would that have to be in her home country? and then find a legal advisor in his country directly to update with her ex-partner and have the case also in his country under sharia?

    In principle embassies should have some information on that and give some direction.

    These men should know that by relocating, it doest not mean they escaped.

  147. Embassies will not get involved in these issues. If you speak to someone at an Embassy they will likely give lip service but no action.

    A woman could try legal action but be prepared for it to be very costly and in the long run…would it be worth it?

    My suggestion is for a woman to pursue options to obtain medical history but leave the rest alone. Focus on the child and providing a good loving home.

  148. Another point is this:

    say a sharia court ( if he is in an islamic country, whether saudi or not) accepts the DNA test, what will be the result?

    Will they put the name of the father on the certificate or simply lash him only in a case of adultery?

    The most famous case in egypt states that at least there should have been a so called ‘ urfi’ secret marriage.

    Here is the full story that had ‘shaked’ the middle east, involving the case of elhenawy- the egyptian actress that in the end she won.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295911.stm

  149. I am not sure what international law says, but here there are childrens rights in dispute and I think that it should be taken seriously.

    Because of the situation of these children in islamic countries ( dont get me wrong, but in most cases they are abandoned out of fear outside masjeds), there should be some resolution.

    The case that now foreign mothers are facing with the advent of globalisaton, opens up these discrepancies between law and perception between different societies and maybe these countries need to create units taking care of these cases, where both the ministry of interior and foreign affairs are involved to solve the cases amicably.

    It makes me wonder what if the father was from other sharia countries? I am sure these women would be in the same situation, no doubt.

    The worst really would be to be a single – abandoned mother- in a country that would not even accept to transfer your nationality to your child.,,,,What happens in all these cases? Really it is so sad.

  150. Nevertheless I am worried that even the medical history of the dad:

    either he should be willing to give it or he has first to be on the birth certificate for the mother to order a copy for the sake of the child.

    Personally I dont know really what I would do if I was involved in such a case, but I would want for identity issues my child to know their biological father and that to be registered officially in their birth certificate.
    I know that is not significant for all, but for me it would be.

    Beyond that if the father would not want me as a partner, that would be another issue and it would be fine.

  151. You raise good points, Gigi. I am unable to answer your questions about shariah law and having a child in an Islamic country. Like you, though, I’m curious as to what law would prevail.

  152. Thanks Carol.

    Yes indeed, strictly from the legal point of view, I also dont know which law would prevail. Maybe there are international conventions also that I am not aware of.

    Actually I looked things up and saw that indeed Saudi Arabia has set up a charitable foundation called back to the roots that coordinates the efforts of the ministry of interior and foreign affairs to help for these cases.

    Thus the ladies that have set up the sites about children abandoned by saudi fathers should get in contact with this foundation either through the saudi embassy or individually to see what are their options.

    Then when they have a clear picture of what can and what cannot be done, they can make a decision how they wish to go ahead.

    Nevertheless, as you rightly mentioned- that will solve any legal issues possed. Nevertheless emotional issues can only be resolved between the parents and even within marriage this means establishing good communication and mutual respect. This takes good work in the right direction, that they still have to discover from what I read.

    I wish them all the best of luck.

  153. Gigi, the foundation of which you speak aims primarily to REPATRIATE the children. Somehow I doubt this option will be of much appeal to non-Saudi single mothers in the U.S.

  154. Being left with children happens all the time with men from all countries including one’s own country. What makes people think that they should be able to get the Saudi gov’t to do something about it? do they go after Italy, France, Canada, Kenya, Japan, etc. etc. etc.? These are not government issues but rather moral issues and it can happen whether married or single at any time.The only recourse people have is with deadbeat dads from their own country.

  155. I’ve stated before and I’ll mention it again, the State Department will not intervene in such cases if the situation is reversed. It is true that during WWII and Vietnam there were women who were left pregnant by American soldiers in similar situations to the women raising Saudi children.

    Saudis are not brought up in an environment which may have sex ed classes for students. Birth control is not openly discussed. Whether fair or not, if an unmarried non-Saudi woman decides to have relations with a Saudi, the onus is going to be on her for some type of birth control.

  156. @ Wendy

    The only reason we discuss the case of Saudi, is because this blog is specifically asking this question. If it was a blog about Pakistan, we would discuss Pakistan- that is all.

    As we mentioned before, islamic countries- not saudi only- have a set of rules in this case incompatible with western law when it comes to children outside marriage and the relevant consequences.

    Thus in the case of an Italian, it would be much easier using EU law to solve the case if you like. With sharia, you need more effort.

    Financial support and birth certificates are not emotional issues at all- they are purely legal.

    @ NN

    I do not know the exact nature of the back to the roots foundation, but from what I read it is a very honourable initiative to solve such cases.

    I am not sure it is only to repatriate- it offers from what i read to solve all issues regarding these children ( if there is enough evidence that they have a saudi father). If as a result they can get their fathers nationality, I see no harm done there.

    Many of them- especially children born to Arab wives- will not have a passport or ID as say in Syria a woman cannot pass on their nationality. Thus for them, a nationality is extremely important.

    Thus they create solutions, so the children can come back to saudi if they wish.

    At the end of the day if any lady is asking for recognition for their children, they have to accept that they might visit one day.

    Noone can have their cake and eat it.

    All is about keping the balances.

  157. @ Wendy- by the way the saudi government is already helping such cases through the back to the roots foundation and trying to bring balance if they can, which is a very honourable act.

  158. Some final thoughts: generally I do not belive that raising a child is just an emotional issue.

    Maybe this comes from people that never felt the lack of money and the tremendous pressure that it can cause. Even if you are the best person, there is no way you cannot survive without money- that’s it.

    Deciding to keep a child is a brave decision and I condone it ( personally I am against abortion). I also cannot imagine ( being a mother myself) one having to give up their child for adoption- it is heartbreaking and actually it is better for any child to stay with their natural parents.

    I support that the women should get financial support both from their state and their ex-partners.

    I cannot imagine being with little support network, raising a child alone, and saying that it is ok to forgo the financial support when it is possible to claim it.

  159. Gigi for a few years in my life I was a single parent who full well understands what it is like to raise a child without money. I worked darn hard to bring money into the house AND look after my children and got nothing from the father and that’s just the way life is sometimes. Life goes on and people should just get on with it.

  160. WOW!!! This has really been an interesting to read! I am married to a Saudi, living in America and have a baby on the way! Funny thing is, he isn’t mean, abusive, hateful or anything! The truth is, If he left me tomm., I would never date another American because of the way my husband treats me! If you want to compare the average American man to the Average Saudi man, I will take that “terrorist” any day!! I have never been treated with more respect! I have 2 children from a previous marriage to an American man and my Saudi, takes care of them, plays with them, teaches them, is calm with them(more calm than me!!!) A few bad apples out of the bunch doesn’t mean you cut down the tree!! And if we are going to talk about men walking out on their children, compare the rate of Saudi’s leaving their children to American men who leave there children! Open your eyes and mind!!!

  161. habibiti23—this topic was discussing about children born out of wedlock to saudi fathers! not children within marriage. Thus I feel your answer is out of context.

    If you know of any saudi fathers that stood up to their paternal responsibilities in the case of children out of wedlock, please share.

    Additionally the topic tries to understand if saudi law or generally islamic law would in the future allow paternity tests in such a case.

  162. […] far there have been no reports of enforcement of this ruling.  However, there have been a number of women who have come forward announcing that they are the single parent of a Saudi child in the United […]

  163. I have only known a couple of Saudi’s who actually married American women and had children with. One wanted a green card and the other moved her to Jordan and got married. But I have known many who fathered children. I can not say there is one of those who left a child behind that supported that child after he left here, my child included who is now 31 years old. I would like to have a DNA test done and also have back child support supplied to me for the 18 years I had to take care of him by myself.

  164. Well Penny, my daughter is 32 and never saw a dime in child support from that sorry excuse of a man. The United States is to blame for ever letting the Saudis come here. If I had my way I would close down ELS and put a stop to immigration. Let them go to their own schools. Americans don’t go to school in Saudi Arabia so why should they even be here. There is no sense in trying to reason with the unreasonable Saudi Educational Mission or The Saudi Embassy. We will have established a better relationship with Martians before we get Saudi men to stop being cheap. I am a realistic Irish-American woman. My bad experience with a Saudi man made me a VERY STRONG WOMAN. My child and my grandchildren are now only mine. It feels good to be a Matriarch. If I have to ever take Saudi money it will make me feel ashamed. We did without it for 32 years, we can do without it now. All Saudis think is that American women are whores. Well I think they are cheap and disgusting men. You can all do yourselves a big favor by forgetting about anybody helping you but yourselves. It might have been hard all those years but thank you Jesus me or my daughter have ever had to cover our faces and be second class citizens to men. And my Grandsons, thank you Jesus will never see women as inferior human beings. They were raised better in the USA by American women. And my daughter’s husband treats her with love, compassion and respect. He provides well for her too. He is an African-American. And as far as I am concerned we are all Baptists and Irish especially on St. Patrick’s Day. My daughter’s father has become someone in a picture that I lost while moving in our many moves. She contacted him on facebook and he wouldn’t respond. Basically he has become the sperm donor because any happy memories have faded. And I resent him so much especially since our daughter had a nervous breakdown because he wouldn’t get in touch with her and send his picture or anything. I hate that man for not loving our child. They want to worship something they can only imagine is there when right in front of them is something real. I don’t think God put people here to forget their own children. Nobody can show me a book and convince me otherwise. Some things God shows you just through common sense. We all made a big mistake when we got mixed up with Saudi men. But our reward for having our children against all odds and often in poverty is the love of family. OUR family. Not theirs. They aren’t Daddies just donors.

  165. I’m also one of these women that has been left with a child from a Saudi guy that returned to his country and in the year and half he’s been gone has tAken no action towards responsibility for his son. The best we get are fake promises of love , marriage and money but nothing ever comes of it. I blame the culture 100% . I feel the parents and government should be responsible. They are fully aware they are unleashing very sheltered men into a society full of temptation. They seriously believe these men won’t engage in relations with women here??? Ha ha ha living in denver where there are 1000’s of Saudis studying here , I know first hand 80% them engage in some kind of relationship with females here. I even have gotten to the point where I feel sorry for the women “backhome”locked up and fed lies about the potential man she could one day be married to. They are expected to be pure both by physical aspects and by theory of those who view here. Meanwhile Saudi men come to the u.s. To study and be free drink alcohol every night, pick up girls play with their hearts and minds with promises off marriage and then return home and pretend like they are angels . I honestly have considered starting a site offering report services on the Saudis studying here. Called know your Saudi man. Potential brides awaiting their husbands graduation, mothers of these men, sisters of them and even fathers might be extremely shocked to know some of the “goings on” that occurs while studying here. Stories that not even Americans would of imagined. I’m so tired of that culture living behind a curtain and when it’s time to come out behind the curtain it’s always some fake show. Reality of this subject is ugly. Time is was exposed. Every time I see a Saudi with a young American girl naive to their culture and obviously manipulated by his kind words of romance I want to run up to her and tell her 10 years of experience and all the stories I know both good and bad. Out of all gulf countries I’ve found that Saudi hospitality and culture is that of animals towards Americans. They are completely stereotypical and think all Americans are like trash they see on TV. There are some good girls here. Innocent girls that do wait for marriage and just because they are Christian they are still below Saudis. This is how it seems. On the up note I have tons and tons of friends from UAE and I will tell you these ppl are some of the best friends anyone could have. Not only are they more open minded they treat others with respect no matter if they’re Christian. Anyway the point is yes!!! This needs to be exposed , simply more awareness if anything needs to be given to the girls here that her suckered into giving their heart to these mmr and in addition to the families and potential brides in Saudi that have not a clue what’s going on over here. They just love to blame the American. Like we put a spell on them and forced them to be in a relationship with us. Hhhh yea right. In addition there needs to be more awareness how many if these men do go back home and yet continue to keep their loved ones(American girls) on the side. Trust me it happens a lot!!!

  166. Who is to say these woman left behind by Saudi parasite’ s (can’t call a guy that leaves a child a man. .they are just a parasite) never married.
    I was married to a Saudi Arabian parachute, and as soon as I refused to get an abortion I took a good beating before that paracite ran back to mommy and daddy with a clear conscience. What a joke! No body is above the law and the law protects children.

  167. read the blogs of girls married to Saudis. they work if they are a cowife. they bitch about the country and culture in a funny way..so not to be make people offended. but you get the gitz of their misery. but heh, they are living the Saudi life. which is their fantasy. a lot of trying to know the country better than the other. really they got the proof on the blogs. but, life in Saudi will eventually eat at you until you leave. but I do think Saudi men treat western wives different. they think they are more masculine like need to work and drive. this is them not me saying this. Saudi is toxic. don’t go and think you can rally and protest to change the laws. aint gonna work. and if your Saudi left you, babe you’ve been blessed by the almighty Allah. all my female Saudi family like the way it is and have no problem getting there sick kids to a dr or milk or whatever it is they need to fix dinner. its a western wife complaint. so, yes, Saudi men do treat you different. buck up or leave.g

  168. These comments and suggestions I reD here are off the hook. What about Americans going over seas and make other women pregnant. And I am assuring you it happens more than vice versa .

  169. if you are pregnant out of wedlock in or out of Saudi Arabia do not tell the Saudi man just say you are pregnant with his kid and see how fast he leaves you alone and abandon and never comes back and then get out of where you are at as fast as you can Simone Iberlin

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