Saudi Arabia: Does a Misyar Wife Have Any Rights?


Islam recognizes both the traditional Islamic marriage and the misyar marriage as well as some others.  The traditional Islamic marriage is a marriage where there is a marriage contract, a wali who stands up for the bride protecting her rights and the bride and groom expect to remain married.  They will look out for each other and the man will provide full rights and recognition to his wife.

A misyar marriage is an agreement that a couple will marry but the wife releases the husband from any rights of housing or monetary support.  There is no obligation for the husband to spend a night with his wife.  He may come to her home or take her elsewhere for a few hours where they enjoy conjugal rights and then he will depart back on his merry way. A misyar marriage is really all about the man.  Why would a woman want a misyar marriage unless she wants to have physical needs satisfied in a halal way under Islam?  She’s not recognized or given rights as a wife.  Why would a respectful Saudi man settle on a misyar marriage?

According to this recent Arab News article, a woman does have some rights within a misyar marriage but it seems few women are actually aware of the rights.  To begin with, a misyar marriage is not intended to be a secret marriage between a man and a woman, although many men will stipulate to their misyar wife that it must remain a secret.

Wikipedia outlays the legalities of the misyar marriage as follows:

Misyar marriage fits within the general rules of marriage in Sunni law, on condition merely that it fulfil all the requirements of the Shariah marriage contract i.e.:

  • The agreement of both parties;
  • Two legal witnesses (Shahidain)
  • The payment by the husband to his wife of Mahr in the amount that is agreed[4]
  • The absence of a fixed time period for the contract
  • Shuroot, Any particular stipulations which the two parties agree to include in the contract and which are in conformity with Muslim marriage law.

Moreover, as explained by the Saudi Islamic lawyer Abdullah bin Sulaiman bin Menie, a member of the Higher Council of Ulema of Saudi Arabia, the wife can denounce at any time, as she sees fit, her renunciation of her financial rights, and require of her husband that he give her all her rights, including that he live with her and provide for her financial needs (“nafaqa”). The husband can then either do so, or grant her a divorce.[5]

The misyar marriage usually ends in divorce and it is the woman who loses.  The wife generally finds that she has been abandoned, which the Arab News article illustrates, and she ends up traumatized by the experience with her reputation and social status degraded.  

Gulf News also published an article explaining why couples may choose to enter into a misyar marriage.  In addition the article cites how misyar web sites and agencies have been established towards facilitating a man or woman to find an ideal misyar partner.

The following youtube video provides a detailed summary of a misyar marriage:

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160 Responses

  1. Legalized prostitution is what it is..

    I feel sorry for the women in that Arab news article. Saw it today and thought, they have absolutely no self worth.

    They don’t know their rights, but do they even care to know?

    Why would someone stay in a relationship where she according to her own words feels like is treated a whore?

  2. Definite prostitution.

  3. I have a few different comments about this.

    First of all, in the article cited I did not like that there was a 13 year old girl trying to get married just to obtain a better financial situation for her and her family. That’s just wrong. This is where a good social program would help in KSA.

    Secondly, I don’t like how the video that explains misyar marriage talks about women whose husband travels for a living just sitting around surfing the internet being bored all day, but maybe I misunderstood? Anyways, I find this comment belittling to women who choose to be in a relationship with a man who travels for a living. Some of us women are very independent, even more so than many men.

    Thirdly, I don’t consider misyar marriage to be legalized prostitution, though it can be. It can also be a way for two people to live together or even just date more informally before marriage. It really depends on the situation. For people who have had bad relationships in the past and are commitment shy, it is a good way to ease into a relationship before fully committing to another person. Whether or not sex is involved would be up to the two people involved.

    “Why would a woman want a misyar marriage unless she wants to have physical needs satisfied in a halal way under Islam? She’s not recognized or given rights as a wife. Why would a respectful Saudi man settle on a misyar marriage?”

    One reason, other than having physical needs satisfied, is knowing that the man will be there for her for a prescribed period of time. I like to think of this as an engagement period for couples who are deciding whether or not to be permanently married to each other. However, not all use it for this reason.

    I don’t think one should enter into a misyar marriage just for sex and/or money, but that’s my opinion.

  4. Misyar as practiced is usually a way to secretly have a second wife. However it can be used legitimately as well. Most common I’ve heard of is a woman who wants to marry, but stay in her own home and retain custody of her children (if she co habitates with a new husband custody goes to her parents generally). Or perhaps she just doesn’t want to disrupt their lives. I’ve also heard of it where the second wife is not really a wife- but it is a way of getting a different mahrem so she may be able to travel, work, get an education etc. In that case she is willing to forego a home etc. because it is a business arrangement. Of course this could mostly be avoided if women could just be treated as full adults.

  5. A few years ago there were some articles on misyaar marriage, Many men just use it as a form of prostitution. They pay a dowry and then are ”married” have a lot of sex, and when they tire of the woman they divorce her. It’s basically the same as the Shia Muta marriage of which the Sunnis are always so derogatory.

    There were two women I remember who were interviewed, one was a doctor a mature woman and she was in a Misyaar marriage with another doctor because they loved each other but she wanted to retain her independence and her own house etc. This is the only form of misyaar where it would be acceptable. Of course it’s still dangerous for the woman as you are still in the power of your owner.

    Another young woman had a misyaar marriage with a rich older man so she could have her own apartment and work and independence.
    I still consider that prostitution.
    It’s very sad that in Saudi Arabia a woman has to prostitute herself to an older man to have her own apartment work, etc. Something which would have been her normal right as a human being in the rest of the world, without the need to pay for this right by providing sex to an old man. Very sad.

  6. Misyar marriage defeats the very purpose of marriage as prescribed by Islam so I do wonder why is it even considered legal.The objective and the goal of marriage in Islam is to enable the spouses to live in peace and tranquillity which is achieved through equity, equality, and fulfilment of mutual rights. Marriage binds the spouses and leads them to live a common life and form a family that develops into a deep spiritual and sentimental relationship. Marriage is not merely an instrument for legalizing sexual relations, but it is an agreement which unites the very existence of the husband and wife and gives a new colour to their life. It turns them into a couple instead of single individuals and makes them complementary to each other. According to the Quran (And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell (LIVE) in tranquility WITH them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Undoubtedly, in these are signs for those who reflect.) (Ar-Rum 30:21)

    However, this phenomenon could be the result of the high dowries demanded by the women in Saudi. In Saudi Arabia, the dowry paid by most men is exceedingly high and, hence, many of them simply cannot afford to marry one, never mind more than one, wife. Dowries in Saudi Arabia are reported to be as high as a million riyals in the higher classes and 40,000 for the working class. Even for a country as rich as Saudi, these exorbitant dowries are making it impossible for men to afford a proper marriage.

    “in Saudi Arabia a woman has to prostitute herself to an older man to have her own apartment work, etc. Something which would have been her normal right as a human being in the rest of the world..” This statement has a point as in numerous parts of the world women are economically empowered, more so than the men in many cases. In the West, if the woman takes on the financial responsibility of the family, then the man will usually adopt the role of homemaker. This arrangement affords a balance of roles and a continuation of the family unit itself.

    However, I recall hearing a Mufti of the KSA saying that misyar damages society and is haram.

  7. Why the hell would a woman ever accept this for themselves?..I really cannot fathom the idea of a misyar marriage…it gives me shudders just thinking about it and HOW would a woman accept such an agreement.
    I heard that many working women accept these marriages as it fits in with their busy lifestyle and they are not interested in being the “traditional” full time wife..

  8. Who says the woman has a choice? Since when do women in Saudi Arabia have free choice? Or opportunities to decide and fend for themselves?

  9. This is bad in saudi or may be bad there. But a collegue of mine is in a misyar marriage by choice. Both of them are comitted to each other and enjoy each others company, both don’t plan on having kids, have very demanding careers an live together .
    So this arrangement is halal in the eyes of their parents who were aginst her dating / meeting someone even.
    They both have no plans to ever get married , and have this open-ended relationship where they pay for common needs otherwise keep their stuff separate. It works really well for her. I see no difference int heir love, commitment than i do with married couples. and since they both don’t want kids that complication is ruled out.

    They are even better than some married couples i know of. they’ve been in this arrangement for many many yrs. I thnk it’s a halal way of living together. like i said no better or no less than marriage.

    again this is NOT in saudi so guardianship laws an downership rules don’t apply.

    carol – you should interview her, she’s v different although not saudi , she’s from kuwait i think, but raised in the US.

  10. @Radha..Misyar is another form of a marriage from what i understand..so they are technically married islamically its just the contract looks a whole lot different.
    Thats why i don’t understand when you said “They both have no plans to ever get married”..but they are married..even if its misyar ..its still a marriage but only different because the woman gives up many of her rites voluntarily..
    Unless iv got it wrong..?

  11. If there are 2 witnesses and a contract, what makes it any different than any other Islamic marriage (in court) – other than obtaining benefits? Seems that Islamically, this is the way people were married before court systems.

    I have Western friends in Kuwait who have married Kuwaitis this way; neither in the marriage wanted to be bound by a court system. They just didn’t want to have children.

  12. Misyaar is basically just like relationships in the Wicked West, with of course less rights for the women and a layer of religiosity poured over it.

    Btw I do not think Misyaar is islamic, they just made that up. And on the other hand, why not? All religions are made up and change over time as people invent new stuff they want in the religion.

    Islamic marriage is between one man and one women, and another woman, and another woman, and another woman, and all the sex-slaves his right hand owns.
    And now they have added ”and another woman who he has not married fully and therefore she has no rights and he can add her to the collection anyway” And so forth…

    I suppose they had to invent something like that now there are no more sex-slaves, although there has been talk of allowing sex-slaves back into the Gulf, for how are all these poor men to get their variety and halal sexual pleasure otherwise?
    Yes, I have now watched the video.
    Disgusting mindset these makers have.

    Of course being a weak woman and of weak mind I think I spend way to much time behind the computer writing brilliant comments on Bedu. But what else can a weak woman like me do?

    Oh wait: the weather is fine and I am off to my horse and a nice ride in the sunshine, with the wind in my hair and the sun on my skin.

  13. Radhaa, so it’s just living together really, like many couples do in the West, only with a fake religious ”ok” added.

  14. If one really ponders the subject of misyar marriages, they would come to the realization that they are wrong religiously as well as morally. a woman should never give up her marital rights. Yet, some woman actually request such marriages. :-/

  15. Mrs. Bawazir
    ” Misyar marriage defeats the very purpose of marriage as prescribed by Islam so I do wonder why is it even considered legal.”

    Agreed. Just another classic example of man twisting the rules and teachings of religion to cater to their own perverted fantasies.

  16. Afke
    ” Btw I do not think Misyaar is islamic, they just made that up. And on the other hand, why not? All religions are made up and change over time as people invent new stuff they want in the religion.”
    Wow!! I actually found something that You and I agree on!! There’s hope for us yet! 😀

  17. Prostitution or an affair is what it is. Islam must somehow figure out how to put a name on it so it doesn’t sound sinful is all.

    Personally I have nothing against legalized prostitution. It’s been around since time began and will be around till it ends. I’m all for prostitutes having rights and protections as well. Like a misyar wife some go into it because they want to and others because they are forced.

  18. Kareem, we could have many things in common, like ice cream or chocolate…

  19. @Radhaa – if your friend would be interested in being interviewed, I’d enjoy being in touch with her!

    I am simply speculating here but it seems to me that most of the misyar marriages are kept secret rather than open as the law stipulates. If that is the case then I see a man trying to circumvent the system for his own entitlement.

  20. @bella-vita – i meant she doesn’t want the legal entaglements of a marriage.

    At this point they have equally florishing careers and equal earnng capacity , so i don’t think either of them is giving up any rights. when they split – if they split they’ll take what is theirs and go their separate ways i assume without spending money on lawyers :-0

    Aafke – yes basically they want to be together without the hassle of marriage – ( not my words) , they can apparently stay comitted together, love each other and be there for each other without a silly piece of paper ( again not my words)
    so i guess this is just somthing she agreed to so as to not offend her parents or his and their standing intheir community 🙂 apparently she feels she has more control this way…hmmm

    and after talking to her , i hear there are quite a few couples who do this !!! huh who knew.

    carol – i’ll ask her and shoot you an email with an intro

  21. Why debate on the topics that are so controversial and notorious? Why don’t you write about Nikaah? The rights of a Husband and a wife? Islam recognizes the rights of a wife just as much as the rights of a husband! You need to focus on the good aspects of Saudi life!

  22. @Radha, I don’t understand the comparison to “married” couples. They ARE married. Misyar is a marriage. Just the terms are different.

  23. “Islam recognizes the rights of a wife just as much as the rights of a husband!”

    Except that ……. islam allows the husband to beat his wife if she is disobedient. It’s in the koran, pure and simple.

  24. @abeabraham2001

    It is not suitable to choose one point from a complete book and start debate on that. Few things are ‘Lawful’ in few circumstances and ‘Unlawful’ in other circumstances. If you really want to understand read the full message. I hope you couldn’t say it is not right.

  25. @American Bedu,
    I know of at least a few respectable fixed-time marriages. Another reason I’d like to add to the list here is the two people adjusting to life with each other. In some cases, religious differences may not be respected or accepted by others in the case of a permanent marriage while a fixed-time marriage may be accepted.

    And for those that talk about women’s rights being taken away in a fixed-time marriage, what rights are those specifically that you are referring to? I realize they’re different, but I am curious to know which ones are the ones that bother you…?

  26. @Abeabraham,
    The arabic word used that many people try to interpret as “beat” could as mean to “leave” as in leave the woman alone according to scholars of Islam meaning that in Islam it is still NOT okay to for a husband to beat his wife.

  27. Isn’t it the same rules as a real marriage? only the woman does not have any rights at all? And the man keeps his rights but no responsibilities?
    If misyaar meant that the woman can divorce the man as easily as he can her when she’s tired of him and if she can have other partners as he can then there would be something to say for it.

    I think it’s still a kind of prostitution deal, it’s a mistress deal, the man can still do what he wants, the woman can have sex with him, gets paid the mahr, but she’s not free to take on other customers.
    Actually I think a prostitute is better off.

    Aliadlw, Yes! Let’s talk about Nikah, which, as I have been told by an Arab speaking friend always means ”penetration”, or ”to fuck” in Arabic, unless in that one little instance when it means ”marriage”.
    And lets talk about the mahr, which is money for pleasure/sex which the man has to pay the woman.
    What a take on a partnership for life!
    But it isn’t really a partnership isn’t it? Not for the men! Let’s not forget the little rule that a man can ”upgrade” as soon as he sees something younger and juicyer. Either by marriage, misyaar or by buying a slave. After all, men deserve variety, and lots of halal sexual pleasure.

  28. Strange one, all over the world the majority of muslims, including the Imams are quite sure it means ”beat”. And that’s what they do. And that’s why a beaten wife gets no support, from the justice system nor her family.

    Remember that Moroccan girl who was forced to marry her rapist? That sets things straight you know, family honor is preserved and the girl is sentenced to hell. She got beaten up all the time by her ”husband”, and so badly, and her mother could not do more than to tell her to stick it out, that she killed herself. And she’s not the only one. Suicide is often the only way out for women in Islam.
    Stop being an apologist for a very nasty religion.

  29. @Strange One. You are confusing Muta with Misyar marriage. Muta is fixed time- Misyar is not.

    And you’re correct. Most common usage of the Arabic word often translated “beat” is to stike out – as in on a different path. ie. Separation. And I have run across scholars that know this.
    But it is not the Orthodox, majority view. But I’m not in the orthodox majority and I believe they are clearly wrong.

  30. @sandy – acco to her they are NOT legally married ( i’m assuming western laws) and per islam they don’t have to cohabit together.

    I’m not sure if their’s is a recognized marriage or not, but from talking to her i thought it was more like dating and living together – islamically sanctioned. they both don’t mark their status as married !!! they have never visited each other’s family as far as i know.
    .

  31. A lot of Muslims in the west (and even some in Saudi) don’t have “legal” marriages, but Islamic ones (a mistake IMO) but they are still married. Misyar marriages are still Islamically binding marriages. They would need to divorce. There is no such thing as Islamically sanctioned sex outside of marriage (slavery aside). They cannot mark their status married if they are not legally married. Really, Islamically you should follow the law of the land. But many do not especially when adding second wives etc. or when just living together and fooling their parents- which is what this sounds like. Yes, I know I could be wrong.

  32. Re: Daraba = Beat = Strike-out = Separation = ? = ? = ?

    Looks like one can insert anything into the parenthesis, after consulting the arabic thesaurus, whatever fits one’s fancy. I have noticed that trend more especially after 9/11 when infidels started examining the koran and started raising blasphemous questions.

    Whatever happened to allah’s promise in the koran that koran is written in clear/mubeen language. With all the parenthical insertions into the koran, it is most confusing, to say the least.

  33. I’ve known about Daraba for longer than that. It’s not about parenthesis- it’s about what the word means. It’s certainly clear to me what it means.

  34. arabs love anything from the west even their ways of living, but how can the saudi’s do the dating thing like americans do if it is haram. hmm, invent a marriage certificate for it? and what should the certificate be called…hmm? let’s call it the ‘misyar marriage’ brilliant thinking to the saudi’s? so.. with that, comes a stigma, right? no arab female runs around bragging she is misyar married to a guy. just like saudi guys dont brag they are dating/seeing a girl, and not married to her. hmm? how ironic, no?

  35. Come on, Strange One, the ‘beat your wives’ command in the Quran is clear. In case you don’t know, the hadith tell us that mohammad hit his wife (unless ‘he hit her and caused pain’ means sometyhing else!).

    It is rather funny how the Arabic word for ‘beat’ is changing. The early Quranic translations use ‘scourge’ then it became ‘beat’ and then ‘beat lightly’ and now it means ‘separation’. Pretty soon it will mean ‘buy a present and candy’.

    It seems that Muslims in Canada didn’t get the message:
    http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/03/24/angry-response-to-wife-beating-book

    Quote: The book called A Gift for Muslim Couple – which was being sold at Islamic Books and Souvenirs on Gerrard St. E. – Instructs on “punishing women and the manner to discipline them” by restraints, scoldings and beatings.

    Muslims are unable to face reality – it is one excuse after another, isn’t it.

    One advantage of misyar is that the ‘wife’ doesn’t have to wait for the second round of beatings – she gets nothing but her dignity. Can’t say that for the regular wife.

  36. I read the gulf news article, this passage stood out for me:

    *Shaikh Ahmad Al Omari, who is also an imam and preacher at a mosque in Jeddah, once said: “I received a request from a 13-year-old girl asking for Misyar marriage for a mahar of 25,000 Saudi riyals (about Dh25,000) and a monthly maintenance cost of 1,000 Saudi riyals.” He added: “When I made enquiries about the girl, I found out that she was living with her mother and was in dire financial situation. For her, Misyar marriage is the only and ideal option left to get out of the situation.”*

    While I was reading I was naive enough to expect the sentence to end by the sheik saying she needed financial help not selling herself into sexual slavery, but of course not, ”this is the only and ideal solution” for a poor desperate little girl… Offering herself for prostitution.
    This is nothing else but child prostitution, child rape.
    And the sheik thinks it’s the only and ideal option…
    How terribly, terribly sad and disgusting.
    And lets not forget this girl will have no future, at least no chance for a real marriage when her creepy pedophile John tires of his child mistress and dumps her, she will have lost her market value.
    It makes me sick to think about. What a disgusting religion/culture.

  37. You know what the option for such a girl is in the civilized world? Use her education, and the government support she would get by going to college, and get a good job, one that does not require her to provide sex for money, a real job. A job which would let her keep her dignity and pay for herself and her mother.

    That is the civilized, moral and honorable way out of poverty. That should have been her option.

    But in countries, cultures and religions obsessed with keeping women as slaves, poor, ignorant, and dependent, a 13-year old girl prostituting herself for maintenance for herself and her mother is the ”only and ideal” option.
    Disgusting!

  38. AB, thank you for an excellent and informative topic on Misyar marriages. I had heard of Mutta marriages before. So this Misyar must be a relatively new concept although it seems very much like Mutta with a few variations.

    While both are legally and religiously binding, in practice they play out as ‘till boredom do us part’. Of course, Grand Muffins had to come up with something similar to keep up with the Grand Ayahollas “Halal Hook-ups”.

    It takes a real man to love and serve his wife. This disease of stunted maturity and growth among muslim husbands is spreading throughout the islamic world.

    It sounds like these muslim men need the lecture I got the day before my wedding forty years ago from my mamma: “Son, this woman to be your wife is always to be pursued, always to be treasured, always to be loved. Every hour of every day, ask yourself if you are still giving her chase.”

  39. And anyway a civilized country would give government support to single mothers and their children, so that neither the mother nor her daughter needs to resort to prostitution to live. Besides of course there is always the possibility for women to have jobs, to decide for themselves, etc.

  40. So it’s a starting sum of $6666,68 and then $266,- a month to get to rape a 13-year old as often as you like. And dump her when you are tired of her or another prospect comes along.
    And all halal and with the approval of the sheik.
    How ideal for the girl.
    Disgusting!

  41. Since you pointed out that particular line, Aafke, it makes me wonder why didn’t the mother seek such a marriage rather than her daughter? (not that either is right…but hard to fathom the mother was willing to go along with it.)

  42. Here is a separate but related discussion going on in Egypt, about divorce.

    http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/03/21/egypt-womens-right-to-divorce-debated-in-parliament/

    Kind of like misyar, people cant seem to figure out if ‘khul’ is Islamic or not.

    On the other hand, in a much needed lighter post, there is the ‘Abou Ismail Poster Frenzy’ post on the same site. It is about a presidential candidate and his excessive use of posters, found eveywhere – and Egyptians humorous take on it. Let it not be said that Arabs don’t have a sense of humor, at least in certain situations.

    I doubt that SA has a similar problem.

  43. Oops, forgot the link….
    http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/03/26/egypt-the-abou-ismail-poster-frenzy/

    Also related to Egypt, but not marriage, is this interview:
    http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/6216.htm

    It is always good to see a Muslim argue from reason and take a stand that is very different from that which we have come to expect from the faithful (Islamic faithful, that is). Unfortunately I don’t share Mr. Al-Qimni’s optimism – but it is still nice to see him give an opinion on a serious matter. .

  44. I think I’m getting a very negative viewpoint of Muslim marriage options in Saudia Arabia.

    So all the criticism at the wicked West …really is outright hypocrisy by those who dare to even support misyar marriages. If the guy has an option to make this marriage “secret” ,forget it.

    I don’t care what culture that type of right exists, it’s just wrong. A love, equal sharing relationship can never exist where 2 people can grow side by side, open and honest to society and going worldwide as a couple in faith and honesty.

  45. @sandy – i have no doubt that what you say in the last line is exactly what they mean to do, they are not very religious, they are fantastic people . and someone i wouldwant in my corner in case of trouble but they also belong to 2 families where the parents are very devout and also leaders 9 if there’s something like that) or looked up to elders in their profession and religion.

    so i guess this could be a face saving thing for the parents, I’m ok with people living together without marriage, but i’m also happy that these 2 took into considerationtheir parents values 🙂

  46. Kareem:

    Afke
    ” Btw I do not think Misyaar is islamic, they just made that up. And on the other hand, why not? All religions are made up and change over time as people invent new stuff they want in the religion.”

    “Wow!! I actually found something that You and I agree on!! There’s hope for us yet”

    Let’s just check this statement out. Kareem are you saying you agree that religions to include Islam is made up and change over time as people invent new stuff?

  47. Actually there were several thousand variants of readings due to textuals issues of the non-orginal koran. It was in the 9th century that it was codifed with numerous objections to the codification. There is over a 1/3 of the koran that cannot be deciphered. However, if you read it in SyroAramic then there is only about 5 percent that cannot be changed. However once you do that the the changes are hugh.

  48. A Wife’s Basic Rights Regarding Her Husband’s Behavior:

    A dowry is the right of every bride at the time of marriage. A marriage contract is not considered legal and complete unless and until a dowry has been specified. This right cannot be forfeited, even if the bride approves, until after the marriage contract is completed. The dowry belongs to the woman entering marriage, and she has the freedom to do whatever she wants with what she owns after the marriage contract is fulfilled. Allah, the Exalted, states in the Glorious Qur’an:

    (Give the women whom you marry their dowry with a good heart. If they remit any part of it to you, of their own good pleasure, take it and enjoy it fully without fear of any harm.)

    [4:4]

    The husband is not allowed to take anything back from the dowry if he decides later to divorce her; as Allah, the Exalted, states in the Glorious Qur’an:

    (If you intend to replace a wife by another and you have given one of them a huge sum of gold as dowry, take not the least of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and with a manifest sin. And how can you take it back while you have entered with intimate relationship unto each other, and they (the wives) have taken from you a firm and strong covenant?)

    [4:20-1]

    his verse indicates, significantly, the sacredness of the marriage vows and the intimacy of the marriage relationship, as well as the right of retaining the dowry gift in case of divorce. Allah, the Exalted, also states in the Glorious Qur’an:

    (O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. Live with them honorably; if you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.

    [4:19]

    This verse ensures the wife’s rights and complete justice even if the man dislikes her for any reason. This is also mentioned in an authentic prophetic tradition wherein Abu Hurairah (may Allah exalt their mention) reported that the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon Him) said:

    “A believer must not hate a believing woman (i.e. his wife): if he dislikes one of her characteristics, he will be pleased with another.”

    [Muslim #1469]

    The first and worthiest condition of marriage to be fulfilled by the husband is to “keep the promise or promises he made to the wife at the time he married her.” This is an order of the Prophet [salla Allahu `alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, abbr. (s)] according to the hadith: “ahaqqu al-shuruti an tufu bihi ma astahlaltum bihi min al-furuj”

    He must exercise patience and be prepared to listen to her advice in every situation. The Prophet (s) listened to the advice of his wives in matters ranging from the smallest to the greatest.

    He must respect her and pay attention to her needs so that she will respect him and pay attention to his.

    He must never ever divulge the secrets of the household and those of the married couple.

    He must strive with sincerity to acquire her trust, and seek her welfare in all the actions that pertain to her.

    He must treat her generously at all times. The Prophet (s) said that the best gift or charity (sadaqa) is that spent on one’s wife

    If she works outside the house, it is praiseworthy for the husband to hire house help to relieve her from too heavy a burden. The wife’s duties do not require her to feed her child, nor even to nurse it, nor to clean nor cook. It is the husband’s duty to provide a nursemaid, food for older children, and servants to clean and cook. However, if the wife does those things out of mercy and love, it is a gift to the husband on her part.

    The Prophet (s) said: “Do not beat your wife.” He also said: “Do not strike your wife in the face.”

  49. @ abeabraham2001
    Get your facts right! Go read the Quran first! Then and only then do you have the right to debate on it!

    God instructs men to be nice to their wives and to treat them well to the best of their ability:

    “…And live with them in kindness…” (Quran 4:19)

    The Messenger of God said, The most perfect of believers in belief is the best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women.’ Al Tirmidhi

    A companion asked the Prophet of God what is the right of a wife over her husband?’ He said, “That you feed her when you eat and clothe her when you clothe yourself and do not strike her face. Do not malign her and do not keep apart from her, except in the house.” Abu Daud

    P.S: I have more!

    @ Aafke-Art
    Looks like your only aim in life is to malign Islam! Pls tell ur ‘Arabic Speaking Friend’ to get his facts right! Or better still, to read the Quran!

    Surah 2:221- Do not marry (tankihoo) unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (tunkihoo) (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 2:232- When ye divorce women, and they fulfill the term of their (‘Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying (yankihna) their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in God and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and God knows, and ye know not.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 2:235- There is no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts. God knows that ye cherish them in your hearts: But do not make a secret contract with them except in terms Honorable, nor resolve on the tie of marriage (alnnikahi) till the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that God Knoweth what is in your hearts, and take heed of Him; and know that God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 2:237- And if ye divorce them before consummation, but after the fixation of a dower for them, then the half of the dower (Is due to them), unless they remit it or (the man’s half) is remitted by him in whose hands is the marriage (alnnikahi) tie; and the remission (of the man’s half) is the nearest to righteousness. And do not forget Liberality between yourselves. For God sees well all that ye do.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 4:3- If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry (fainkihoo) women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 4:25- If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed (yankiha) free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed (fainkihoohunna) them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Ibn Kathir provides evidence that this refers to marriage.

    Surah 4:127- They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: God doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry (tankihoohunna), as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but God is well-acquainted therewith.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 24:3- The fornicator shall not marry (yankihu) any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry (yankihuha) her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 24:32- Marry (Waankihoo) those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, God will give them means out of His grace: for God encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 24:33- Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage (nikahan) keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 33:49- O ye who believe! When ye marry (nakahtumu) believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of ‘Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    Surah 33:53- O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet’s houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behavior) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but God is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God’s Apostle, or that ye should marry (tankihoo) his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God’s sight an enormity.

    In this verse it seems pretty clear that the word is referring to marriage.

    P.S: I have more!

  50. @Aafke-Art,
    ‘ Let’s not forget the little rule that a man can ”upgrade” as soon as he sees something younger and juicyer’

    Don’t people in the West go for ‘Newer’ girl friends? Their relationships aren’t Halal! Don’t blame a religion for this! This depends on a guy’s mentality, DO NOT blame Islam for this!

    ‘I have noticed that trend more especially after 9/11 when infidels started examining the koran and started raising blasphemous questions’

    Really? Is this Why Islam is the fastest growing religion?

    http://articles.cnn.com/1997-04-14/world/9704_14_egypt.islam_1_islamic-world-scarves-or-veils-prophet-mohammed?_s=PM:WORLD

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/islam-is-one-of-the-fastest-growing-religions-in-australia-says-ambassador-51276/

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/24/post-911-islam-converts_n_935572.html

    http://usmba.academia.edu/ELKOUBAITINaoual/Papers/252655/Women_and_Conversion_to_Islam_The_American_Womens_Experience

    Oops and I’m pretty sure you don’t know the Truth behind 9/11!

    http://www.911sharethetruth.com/

    ‘Whatever happened to allah’s promise in the koran that koran is written in clear/mubeen language. With all the parenthical insertions into the koran, it is most confusing, to say the least.’

    Maybe its because you suffer from a serious learning disability! Because the Quran is easy to read and understand and learn!

  51. I have read the Quran. Of course. I have also read it in chronological order. I do not like it, I think it is a very immoral book, inspired by a very unpleasant warlord.

    Maher is money for sex. The wife does not just receive that money as a gift, it her right for providing sex. Sex and money. The basics of prostitution.
    Especially when combined with the ridiculous ease with which muslim men can divorce their wives, and the many obstacles put in the way of a woman divorcing her husband, if she is allowed to do it at all.

  52. The suffering of women under Islam is so enormous that it makes me sick to read all this crap about how covering women is the right thing to do, how there is no rape or suppression of women under Islam. The more I learn the more I am disgusted by Islam, and all religions. They are all evil, they are poison, they make this Earth, which could be a paradise into hell for so many women.
    This is the only real hell, the hell of religion.

    Sorry for all the comments, but I have watched a German documentary about Muslim girls being forced into marriage after which they are subjected to a lifelong hell of rape, beatings and abuse. How they try to kill themselves, and how some escaped.

    That would also be an interesting statistic if it would exist;
    How many Muslim girls and women kill themselves after years of rape and abuse.

    The documentary for those who speak German:

  53. PS, The documentary is called, ”Damned to marriage”

  54. @Aafke-Art

    The mahr (dowry) is something that is paid by the man to his wife. It is paid to the wife and to her only as an honor and a respect given to her and to show that he has a serious desire to marry her and is not simply entering into the marriage contract without any sense of responsibility and obligation or effort on his part.

    How can you give it such a wrong name?? How can you speak in such a dirty language? I’m sorry, but my parents have taught me to use cultured language! What is your problem with Mahr? Can’t a husband give his bride a gift??

    You can’t call the whole religion bad if a few people do something wrong!

    Talk about treating women badly? Do you know how the African Americans were treated in the West till the mid 1900s? Islam tells us to treat all human beings equally and the Quran advocated it 1400 years ago!

    You say you have read the Quran, but there’s a difference between reading and understanding! No religion advocates discrimination, you should have known that by now! Also, I don’t know whether you read the Quran to understand it or to find mistakes in it!

    Didn’t’ you read about the scientific miracles in the Quran? Do let me know if you haven’t, I’ll be glad to enlighten you on them!

    And What is the purpose of this video? What do you want to prove? That Muslim men make crappy husbands? So, do mean to say that men in the west make excellent husbands?? Do you know the divorce rates in US?? What about the adultery they commit? Do you the know the Domestic Violence statistics in the west?

    Islamic dress is modern and practical. Muslim women wearing Islamic dress work and study without any problems or constraints. I am a Muslim woman, I have a Dual MBA degree, if Muslims were so stuck up, would they let their daughters study? Why do you have a problem with a Woman covering herself? If a woman has a right to wear a revealing dress, she should also have the right to cover herself!

    Let me share with you a verse from the Bible:
    Ecclesiasticus 22:3 “….and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss” (From the New Jerusalem Bible. It’s a Roman Catholics Bible)
    So, the Birth of a Daughter is considered a loss in Christianity! Is it?

  55. Aafke said Islamic marriage is between one man and one women, and another woman, and another woman, and another woman, and all the sex-slaves his right hand owns.
    And now they have added ”and another woman who he has not married fully and therefore she has no rights and he can add her to the collection anyway” And so forth… I’m in an Islamic marriage but I’s pretty certain I’m the only wife.Sweeping generalization much?Lets see, the Western marriage is between a man and a woman (the heterosexual ones), a couple of mistresses, a few girlfriends on the sides, weekend visit to some brothel and lets not forget the random weekly one-night stands shall we?since we playing the ugly generalizing game..

    aliadlw-You need to focus on the good aspects of Saudi life!
    actually AB does a fair amount of topics on the positive sides of Saudi and Islam but you’ll notice a lesser amount of comments there. The “scandalous” side of Saudi and Islam is what these people are all flocking for, it suits their needs..

    kaktuz and another guy – if you don’t know Arabic, it is no ones fault

    Aafke – mahar is money for sex.
    Mahar is GIFT (it could be in shape of money, properties, a dress etc anything that is agreed between the bride n groom) for the marriage and since when is marriage all JUST about sex?maybe for your marriage then?The giving of a dowry is a symbol of the husband’s seriousness in marriage. In addition, it reflects the love and willingness of the husband to live with the wife, and to sacrifice for the welfare of his family. It is also a sign of respect from the husband to the
    wife. However it is not included in the pillar of Islamic marriage or a prerequisite for the validity of the marriage. Read and learn http://www.islam.gov.my/sites/default/files/mahar_from_islamic_perspective.pdf

  56. @Aliadlw

    For every advantage you cite, there are multiple disadvantage.

    First, both the Quran and the Muslim practice outline a very, very clear institutional discrimination between Muslims and non-Muslims in legal, social and marital aspects. This is readily confirmed by your own scholars. You should also know that all religions discriminate between their followers and non-followers. Islam is not exactly original here.

    Divorce rate in Saudi is 50%, so there are no bragging rights here.

    Quran is replete with mistakes, silly, obvious mistakes. Jews worship Ezra as a son of God? Seriously? The inheritance math doesn’t always work, too. Apply your dual MBA to that.

    For all your extolling of mahr, once you decide to divorce your husband, he ask for your “gift” back.

    If you think women in Islam are so revered, I will leave you with one little tidbit of Muslim reality: a husband can divorce his homemaker wife after thirty years of marriage and put her out on the street with nothing but three months of maintenance. He can certainly provide more, but the law does not compel it. Islam lacks the concept of marital property. Certainly, the West treats its divorcing women much nicer by granting them half of whatever the couple accumulated from the date of marriage.

  57. interesting topic and comments!

  58. aliadlw – People like aafke find it hard to believe a Muslim woman who abides to her religion could also be a successful educated career women with a loving supporting husband who abides by the Islamic law and at the same time treat his wife with honor n love, without the beatings. to her and the likes, this does not exist and the only idea of a Muslim couple that they could gather in their mind is the ones of the domineering husband who beats the crap out of his mousy wife, forcing her to cook,slave in the household, cannot study or work and live a miserable life altogether.
    Go and have a look at the “positive” topics that AB talks about and you’ll hardly find anyone acknowledging them because it doesn’t meet their pathetic description of Muslims and Islam.

  59. Despite the fact that u stated your MBA or if I stated I have my own properties and business, it will still not budge their mind that indeed Muslim women are oppressed.
    interesting reads http://sunnah.org/msaec/articles/responsibilities_husband.htm

    http://www.islamology.org/Overview/Women/islam&Divorce.htm

  60. It is not me but all four of the Islamic schools of jurisprudence who call the mahr the money the man pays to his wife for ”sexual pleasure”.
    So we agree on this being very distasteful and we are both disgusted by this. Always nice to have something in common.

    Of course Muslim women can be successful professionals, why not?
    But in Saudi Arabia they can only do so if their owner allows them. And signs the paperwork for them.
    Conversely, in Islam men can also deny women any opportunities, and rape their wives and beat them, and it is quite possible that nobody will help them. That is the truth, and it is unfair to all those women who are not so lucky to deny it.
    Especially as a Muslim woman you should acknowledge the bad in your religion and work on making it better.

  61. And don’t come with these ”scientific miracles” in the Quran. There is nothing at all in the Quran which wasn’t common knowlege at the time it was written. And it also contains all the mistakes and ignorance of the time it was written.

  62. Women’s equality in the West is a charade. I say this based on my readings
    http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=13&chapter=5

    Women’s so-called equality reality

    1) Abortion
    2) Rape – The USA, a country proclaiming the greatest freedom of rights has the World’s highest rape rate. It is 4 times higher than Germany, 18 times higher than England and almost 20 times higher than Japan. In one state of Utah alone the rape rate is 44.6 per 100,000. In 1995, 2,071 Utah children under the age of 18 were sexually abused: 633 of these children were under the age of 6.
    In the USA, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That equates to 78 rapes each hour, 1,872 rapes each day, and 683,280 rapes each year.Looking at such figures, the question springs to mind: who is committing these barbaric acts against women? Are these the acts of mentally disturbed characters roaming the streets? The popular stereotype could not be further from the truth. In 1980, only 2% of men convicted of rape were referred for psychiatric treatment. The reality is shocking and disturbing: over 75% of women who are raped have had some prior contact with the man who raped them.3 They are raped by acquaintances, people they know and probably trusted. A close friend or relative rapes 16%.

    3) Divorce

  63. @Aliadlw – yes there are various examples int he koran on how to treat your wife nicely and sharia courts arounds the world usually are to the letter but saudi is a whole diff case. They have their own interpretation of the koran and nothing is codefied, it’s all onthe whim of an individual judge and In my opinion ( personal opinion) the saudi judges do not look favorably upon a woman- any woman who dares to cross a man. they see it as a percieved insult to islam . especially if a lady asks for divorce. they don’t see it as a marriage gone bad, a mistake but more as a woman doing the man irreparable harm and thwarting authority and hence the cause for very poor application od the sharia law.

    Do we blame islam for this? do we blame the judge? do we blame the environment? the laws of saudi? i don’t know . all i know is it’s terribly unfair to a woman.

    We went thru hell getting a divorce for my SIL after abuse and what not we still had to bribe the Judge, give back her mahr and only then was she granted freedom. now why did she have to give back her Mahr? she upheld her side of the marriage vows didn’t she? In fact in my opinion her husband should have been thrown in jail for assault and taken to the cleaners. If he went on the streets an dbeat up a stranger wouldn’t he have been punished? why is he not if he does the sam ethng to his wife, shouldn’t he be puncihed worse for treating someone he promised to love nad cherish in this way?

    Again i’m not attackingislam, i’m saying that the koran may say a million beautiful things about a marital relationship , but what happens in reality is what is relevant. there is no use uin having a beautiful book sent by god whne no one cares to follow it. especially in saudi which for some strange reason is regarded as all things holy in islam.

  64. @Mrs bawazir – I understand where you are coming from 🙂 The west is not a utopia, neither is any country inthe world , saudi.. lesser said the better 🙂 but i really don’t see anything wrong with abortion and divorce if it’s not forced andif it’s what the woman wants 🙂
    In my book if a woman wants either and it is available to her in a safe just manner then i actually see it as a plus for that country not a minus.

  65. 4) Single parents – There is yet another set of depressing statistics that has been increasing since the advent of so called “women’s liberation”. In the past ten years, the number of births to unmarried mothers has risen from nearly 90,000 in 1982 to 215,000 in 1992. Of all the babies born in 1992, 31% were born to unwed mothers. Nearly 2,500 girls under the age of 15 gave birth, and over 23,000 new mothers in that year were aged under 20.The burden of family care on the Western women has been escalating and in 1994, the USA had 9.9 million single mothers having to maintain and take care of their children compared with only 1.6 million single fathers. The ‘normal house’ with a father, mother and children has become an illusion in the Western world and is reaping havoc. The USA – In 1970, 40% of household were made up of married couples. In 1995, only 25% of households are made up of married couples. The social impact of single parenting on children is devastating. 75% of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single parent families. 20% of children in single parent families have a learning, emotional or behavioral problem. 63% of suicides are committed by individuals from single parent families

    5) Health
    6) Alcohol abuse

  66. Didn’t’ you read about the scientific miracles in the Quran? Do let me know if you haven’t, I’ll be glad to enlighten you on them!

    Let me have the honors to ENLIGHTEN you:

    If koran is indeed the “book of scientific miracles”, then how come muslims are so backward in science and technology? How come muslims have won only three nobel prizes in science and medicine as compared to over a thousand by the infidels, during the last hundred years or so? Guess infidels stole all the scientific miracles from the koran, which allah forgot to apply for copyrights :)-

    The two monumental, preeminent, and seminal books on Quranic science are The Amazing Quran by Gary Miller and The Bible, Quran, and Science by Maurice Bucaille. However, the two authors missed seven major scientific predictions from the Quran! Here they are ….

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Farsideology:_Seven_New_Scientific_Predictions

  67. Well, I am not American. Besides, America is riddled with insane religious Christians, And even weirder Mormons. The more religious a place, the more rape, teen pregnancies etc. Your numbers prove that again.
    And even if these rape numbers are appalling, they will be ten times worse in countries where women have virtually no rights at all and are given responsibility for every bad action a man does to them.
    And at least in the ”Wicked West” we have not institutionalized prostitution into ”marriage”, or the sale of little children to geriatric pedophiles into ”marriage”, and we consider rape in marriage as rape.
    We are still much better off, even if ”the Wicked West” still has a long way to go in the emancipation of women.

    i am sorry to have to say this, after we agreed so happily over the disgusting fact that Mahr is money paid for sex in Islamic marriage, but this is such a childish trick, to point the finger elsewhere and claim: ‘they do it toooo”.
    It does not strengthen your argument in any way.

  68. Radhaa, love your comments. You are such a good human being.

  69. Mrs Bawazir, the crimes done to women in the islamic world are worse than anywhere else on the planet, I can write pages and pages of atrocities done to women and children in the name of Islam. I cannot understand why you are not ashamed and working to improve your religion, but instead come on a forum and point a finger and say, ”them do it to”.
    When bad as some people treat women in the West, it is nothing compared to the utter evil done to a lot of women in the Islamic world. Girls buried alive in Baluchistan for wanting to marry men they love, ten, eleven year old girls dying trying to give birth to babaies for which their bodies are not ready, Nowjrood who managed at 8 (!) years old to get a divorce from the man she was sold to and who raped and beat her every day. The Yemeni 13-year ol girl who was raped to death by the old man she did not want to marry and who did not get punished for destroying his property, The endless number of small girls who are sold off to pedophiles, because Mohammed had sex with a nine year old. Girls and women who kill themselves because they cannot bear the beatings and rape anymore. The list of atrocities done to women is as endless as it is horrific.
    Under the Islamic Taliban women and children have the lowest life expectancy in the world!

    How can you, as a human being, close your eyes to all this???

  70. Radhaa the reason why i placed abortion at the number 1 list is due to my belief that life is precious and that life begins at conception. and after seeing pictures as these, I could not agree on anyone who claims it is their rights to abort a human being

    it could be also to the part that I am a mother, and I saw my child coming out of me, I could not understand my world without her. it could also be tht i do not sanction homicide, as this is what i believe abortion does.

    Aafke, that is just it, i do not agree on those atrocities, 1000% abhor those practices and that is why i am using my religion that i believe to educate people around me on the need to eradicate all corruptions, to spread humanity using my religion as my tool. that is why I believe in what i believe.

  71. I do not believe any woman would resort to abortion except for the fact of the circumstances that forces her to take such inhuman resolution. The man does not have to go through this ordeal (killing his own child) does he?This is why I placed abortion as part of the western women’s charade of freedom. Worst of the matter is, girls as young as 15 are having this process carried out. perhaps younger. is this freedom? it sure is a suck of a freedom. or maybe I am just sappy and old fashion?

  72. When I think of freedoms for women I think of education…that she can pursue any field which may interest her. Education then segues into jobs and careers where a woman can apply for any type of profession. She can live on her own. She can drive. She makes her own decisions. I think these are critical freedoms that every woman should have.

  73. @Mrs bawazir – I don’t agree, i don’t condone abortion either but a lot of women do it for diff reasons and a lot are not forced, not everyone loves Kids. lets leave that as it is. What it means to me is a woman has a choice to decide what is right for her without someone else dictating her choice – e.g society/parents etc., it is a hard decision if one is 15 or 45, freedom is the choice she is given to choose.

    I agree with AB, as far as single parents, the divorce rate in saudi is so high i’m assuming they all are single family homes !!! maybe w/ extended family but nothing beats living together with your mom and dad as a family, now throe in polygamy and you have a part-time dad.
    so i’d say it’s even -even inthis with the west.

    saudi is no utopia neither is the west , the diff being in saudi the women are not even given a choice, in other places she is given a choice to live her life the way she pleases , of course she may not be right, but that’s more a replection on her character than anything else.

    Freedom is being treated the same as other Human beings, no better no less.

  74. @Mrs bawazir – “Radhaa the reason why i placed abortion at the number 1 list is due to my belief that life is precious and that life begins at conception. and after seeing pictures as these, I could not agree on anyone who claims it is their rights to abort a human being”

    Not everyone needs to share your beleifs 🙂 you don’t have to agree with everyone and neither does everyone have to agree with you, You think life begins at conception, many don’t there are valid reasons on both ends. can that life life outside without help on day 10 of conception?
    I would never get an abortion, but not because of the life on an unborn human being, but because of what it does to my body. but i don’t expect everyone to agree with me. It is MY opinion, every woman should have the basic right to HER opinion not what you believe or what i believe or what a religios person believes .

    that is the true meaning of freedom.

  75. Mrs. Bawazir – abortions can be had in KSA. Did you know that?
    Carol, you are absolutely right about what freedom for every woman should be.

  76. There would be a lot more single mothers in Saudi if unmarried women could keep their babies. I don’t see putting the babies in an orphanage and becoming a surgical again virgin as creating a better society.

    Western crime statistics are meaningless as a comparison because we have not honest records out of Saudi to make a comparison.

    The western legal systems at least support the women when crimes are commited against them.

    The higher divorce rate is not always a bad thing. At least women are not be trapped in abusive relationships. If men didn’t abuse or cheat on their wives the divorce rate would be lower. Polygamy is the number one reason for divorce in Saudi.

  77. @wendy – are you serious!!!!
    It was a huge NO NO when i worked there and health care employees could face god only knows what if we ever tried that.

  78. @Mrs.

    You are entitled to your views on abortion. You should know, however, that mainstream Islam does not prohibit it. Your views, therefore, do not reflect the Muslim majority so please do not make it sound as if they do. I refer you to multiple fatwa sites and an excellent book “The Yakoubian Building” by Alaa Aswaad.

    On your other comment, people have no trouble imagining a happy Muslim marriage with husband and wife living together peacefully and lovingly. People are just saying that this happiness has nothing to do with Islam. I certainly do not condemn Muslim family life in a wholesale fashion, seeing that I’m married to a Muslim. But the state of my marriage has absolutely nothing to do with religious affiliation of its members.

  79. If there is a sound medical reason for it then yes. If the mother’s life is at risk it can happen and I know this to be true.

  80. @NN, no where in my comment did I state my opinion about abortion to be an Islamic view. please read carefully before assuming. It was MY opinion and I am not enforcing it on anyone, simply stating I don’t agree on it and would not agree it being carried out. EXCEPT, thanks to Wendy’s comment, IF the mother’s life is jeopardized, meaning it could result in her death. In this case, in my opinion, an abortion may be carried out. Why? to understand more please read here http://www.zawaj.com/articles/abortion_permitted_when.html

    BUT NN, you fail to mention the circumstances on when the mainstream Islam allows abortion. In cases of rape, mother’s life in danger or repeated pregnancies could result in severe damage to the mother’s health.

    It should be remarked here that pregnancy due to unlawful and illegal sex is no reason and excuse for abortion. The embryonic life farm in the mother’s womb is honoured and sacred even though it is a result of adultery (Hidaya, 2/292). as can be seen here, an unborn child is still viewed HIGHLY even if it is “illegal”, contrary to popular beliefs that children out of wedlock are worthless etc.

  81. @ NN, Well guess what? The Divorce Rate in US is 50% and Britain has the highest divorce rate in the European Union

    http://www.divorcerate.org/

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-52829/Britain-highest-divorce-rate-EU.html#ixzz1qb6vSCAd

    Oh, and regarding the Errors in the Quran,

    Rehel/Rihal (Tawla) are wooden Quran holders that are traditionally used when studying, reading, or memorizing the Quran. The rehel sold here are all hand crafted….Understand my point?? Well, of course not, because I’m talking OUT OF CONTEXT!! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!

    “Quran is replete with mistakes, silly, obvious mistakes. Jews worship Ezra as a son of God?”

    Please refer to the Ayats before this one! This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation.

    According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas – quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse – some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, “How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah* and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?”

    (*[Qiblah in arabic] when the Muslims changed the direction of worship i.e. from Bayt Al Maqdis [in Jerusalem] to Masjid Al-Haram in Makkah)

    You can’t just take any ayat from the Quran and contest it! Study the whole context first!

    And you say the ‘Inheritance Math’ does not work??

    In Islam, the male inherits double the female, because the man is legally responsible for his parents, wife, children, divorcee (for a period of time), sisters (single or widowed), and his aunts. He can be sued in court by any of these people if he neglects them, and the court would enforce payments upon him to them.

    The Bible is clear about if sons exist, then the daughters inherit nothing:

    Numbers 27
    8 “Say to the Israelites, ‘If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter.
    9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers.
    10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers.
    11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the LORD commanded Moses.’ ”

    Notice how the wife (widow) inherits nothing. And notice how the daughter only inherits when no sons exist. Also, the oldest son inherits double the younger son:

    Deuteronomy 21
    15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love,
    16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.
    17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.

    Does this make sense?? Well apply your Logic to this!

    And regarding Mehr, Mehr (dowry) is the right of the wife even after divorce. If the marriage was consummated, she is entitled to the full-stipulated amount. If the marriage was not consummated, the wife will be entitled to half the stipulated amount. It is compulsory for a man to pay his divorcee her due mehr!

    And ” I will leave you with one little tidbit of Muslim reality: a husband can divorce his homemaker wife after thirty years of marriage and put her out on the street with nothing but three months of maintenance.”

    Really? Where did you read this juicy piece of tidbit?? A guy can leave his wife after 30 years of Marriage?? Where in the Quran or Hadith is that mentioned?? Please enlighten me!!

    Lack of proper Islamic knowledge about divorce has led to some misconceptions in society.

    In case a serious disagreement occurs between a husband and a wife, a procedure is recommended in Islam to help reconcile the situation before a divorce. This arbitration procedure and the steps before the actual termination of marriage are described below.

    (I) The two parties must try to settle their differences on their own. (II) If they fail, two arbitrators, one from the husband’s relatives, and one from the wife’s relatives, must be appointed to try to make peace and to settle their differences. (III) If this attempt also fails, then the husband or the wife may seek a divorce. (IV) In case divorce is served, a reconciliation time of three months is available (except if the parties have divorced each other for the third time). The two parties can reconsider their views and reunite in this waiting time. (V) However, if the above time limit expires and no reconciliation occurs, then the divorce becomes effective and marriage is terminated.

    In case of divorce or if a wife gets widowed, she is given financial support for the period of ‘Iddah’ – and if she has children, she is also given child support.

    In Islam, a Woman is also allowed to obtain a Divorce from her husband. It is called ‘Khula’.

    So, its not just the husband who can divorce his wife!

    And, The Women’s rights in Islam should judged according to the authentic sources, and not what individual Muslims do, or what the Muslim society does!

    According to Wikipedia, the concept of modern alimony in the US derives from English ecclesiastical courts which awarded alimony in cases of separation and divorce. ‘Alimony Pendente lite’ was given until the divorce decree, based on the husband’s duty to support the wife during a marriage that still continued. Post-divorce or permanent alimony was also based on the notion that the marriage continued, as ecclesiastical courts could only award a divorce a ‘mensa et thora’, similar to a legal separation today. As divorce did not end the marriage, the husband’s duty to support his wife remained intact.

    According to Wikipedia, the concept of modern alimony in the US derives from English ecclesiastical courts which awarded alimony in cases of separation and divorce. ‘Alimony Pendente lite’ was given until the divorce decree, based on the husband’s duty to support the wife during a marriage that still continued. Post-divorce or permanent alimony was also based on the notion that the marriage continued, as ecclesiastical courts could only award a divorce a ‘mensa et thora’, similar to a legal separation today. As divorce did not end the marriage, the husband’s duty to support his wife remained intact.

    This is what the Bible says about Divorce:

    Deuteronomy
    Chapter 24
    KJV
    1-5

    1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.

    Matthew 5:32

    But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

    Mark 10:10-12

    When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

    See brother NN, Islam is not about wars, fighting, killing and manipulation. It does not instruct men to oppress women. Our Prophet never fought a war unless it was to defend himself or innocent people or land that has been stolen from its original people. Our prophet forgave all his enemies and even those who brutally murdered his uncle. Our Prophet stood up for women’s rights like no women has done in history. Islam made alimony compulsory more than 1400 yrs ago. The Quran is such a wealth of knowledge – can anyone take up God’s challenge to produce a greater verse?

  82. @Alia

    First, take it easy on cut and paste. In your rush to inundate us with your (borrowed) wisdom, you hit “control V” twice above. Is there a single word in your post that you wrote yourself? besides my name, that is?

    Second, exclamation mark is not an argument, so take it easy on these as well.

    Third, get it into your head that non-Muslims posting on this site have way more knowledge about Islam than you, and you are not leading them to any major revelations, despite what your dawa-wallah may have told you. Nothing you can cut and paste from another website will surprise people who post here regularly.

    Fourth, I’m an only child. I am not your brother. I’m not a brother to anyone, in fact. Being female and all. Besides, there is no history of mental disease in my genetic line, so I don’t think we can be related.

    Regarding divorce after 30 years of marriage: no, silly, it’s not in the Quran or Hadith. That’s the problem. It isn’t there. For the mentally impaired, here is a brief summary of the problem again: in Shariah, a husband divorcing his wife owes her only 3 months of maintenance. In most Western countries a husband divorcing his wife (or vs.versa) owes her one half of everything they accumulated together. See? 3 months. Vs. half of everything. Do you understand which is better, or shall I use a larger font, too? Can you produce any references as to how Islam takes care of divorced women for longer than 3 months? That’s right, no. Because there isn’t any.

    I don’t understand why you post biblical references since they mean nothing to me. No country bases their legal system on the Bible.

    Under the Khula scenario the wife has to give up the mahr. Plus, Khula isn’t available on demand. The woman has to petition the judge, and it’s up to his discretion to grant it. Why don’t you ask a couple of posters here for their experiences in obtaining divorces in the Gulf, and how they had to beg and bribe the judges only to be sent back home to their abusive husbands.

    Divorce rate in Saudi is 50%. What’s to brag?

  83. Continued…

    I don’t see how any Tabari comments you posted gets you out of this very obvious Quranic mistake. The Jews do not, and never did, worship Ezra as a son of God. Jews are the original monotheists and it’s against the most fundamental tenets of Judaism to ascribe sonship to God. That somewhere, somehow, a single Jew told Mohammad something about Ezra does not change the fact that Judaism does not, and never did contain the concept of divine sonship. Chances are, Mohammad just misunderstood what he knew about Judaism. The preceding verse blames the Christians for worshiping Jesus as the son of God, which is an accurate reflection of Christian doctrine. The verse about Jews, though, is a complete mistake. Sorry.

    Inheritance math. Again, for the mentally impaired, I’m not commenting on whether Islam splits the inherited wealth fairly or unfairly. That’s beside the point. What is the point here is that the split prescribed in the Quran on some occasion does not result in 100%. For example:

    There are cases when the total of the shares assigned to the heirs exceeds the patrimony. Take for example the following.

    According to the above verses, if a man dies leaving behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents,

    His wife’s share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth)

    His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;)

    and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;)

    When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance.
    Wife1/8 = 3/24
    Daughters 2/3 = 16/24
    Father 1/6 = 4/24
    Mother1/6 = 4/24
    Total = 27/24

    Now take another example. Say a man is survived by his wife, his mother and his sisters.

    The wife receives 1/4 of the inheritance, (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;)

    the mother 1/3 (if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the heirs, the mother has a third;)

    and the sisters 2/3. (If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them)

    When we add up these fractions they too are more than the total.
    Wife1/4 = 3/12
    Mother 1/3 = 4/12
    Sisters 2/3 = 8/12
    Total = 15/12

    In the above examples, the shares apportioned to the heirs exceed the total of the inheritance. That’s fine, no one would expect the desert dwellers of the 7th century to be math genuises. But expecting everyone to pretend like these errors do not exist is silly.

  84. There is a ridiculous amount of paste copy on this thread,
    Excessive paste-copy is not allowed on this blog. Comments full of paste copy will be moderated.

  85. @ NN, just relax, Knowledge only grows through sharing! So what if I took the help of ‘Borrowed Wisdom’?? Is sharing ‘Borrowed Wisdom’ banned in the West?? I was jst trying to make it clear and I thought an article from Wikipedia may be helpful!

    And fyi, I think the Non-Muslims posting on this site including Miss American Bedu are big, ignorant fools! You say you guys have knowledge about Islam?? You guys read the Quran only to insult its sayings! Have you read the Bible or the Torah? If yes, how did you ignore the Mistakes in them?

    We Muslims are peaceful people, we call our fellow human beings Brother or Sister. I didn’t mean to offend you by calling you brother. If anything, it was just a sign of respect! There is so much anger within you and you say we Muslims are angry people!

    Oh, and yes, there may not be any Mental illness in your family other than say Bipolar Disorder that is causing you to get angry without a reason!

    Oh, and when a Wife leaves her husband, she also takes with her all her possessions! Don’t you think that this is followed only in the West!

    And go read! Today, there are no hard and fast rules regarding alimony in the West.How alimony will be awarded in a particular divorce case, or whether it will be awarded at all, is decided based on the details and specifics of the couple’s marriage and individual backgrounds.Often times, where both the husband and wife earn comparable incomes, alimony will not be awarded at all.
    Go do some research, or do you have a Reading Disability?

    And well, the Divorce rate in US is 50% too! And don’t forget the problems ‘Live-in’ couples have to face!

    It is attributed to Jesus to have said, “But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery” (Matthew 5:32).

    Judaism, on the other hand, allows divorce even without any cause. The Old Testament gives the husband the right to divorce his wife even if he just dislikes her:

    “If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled” (Deut. 24:1-4).

    The above verses have caused some considerable debate among Jewish scholars because of their disagreement over the interpretation of the words “displeasing”, “indecency”, and “dislikes” mentioned in the verses. The Talmud records their different opinions:

    “The school of Shammai held that a man should not divorce his wife unless he has found her guilty of some sexual misconduct, while the school of Hillel say he may divorce her even if she has merely spoiled a dish for him. Rabbi Akiba says he may divorce her even if he simply finds another woman more beautiful than she” (Gittin 90a-b).

    The Talmud has recorded several specific actions by wives which obliged their husbands to divorce them: “If she ate in the street, if she drank greedily in the street, if she suckled in the street, in every case Rabbi Meir says that she must leave her husband” (Git. 89a). The Talmud has also made it mandatory to divorce a barren wife (who bore no children in a period of ten years): “Our Rabbis taught: If a man took a wife and lived with her for ten years and she bore no child, he shall divorce her” (Yeb. 64a).

    Wives, on the other hand, cannot initiate divorce under Jewish law. A Jewish wife, however, could claim the right to a divorce before a Jewish court provided that a strong reason exists. Very few grounds are provided for the wife to make a claim for a divorce. These grounds include: A husband with physical defects or skin disease, a husband not fulfilling his conjugal responsibilities, etc. The Court might support the wife’s claim to a divorce but it cannot dissolve the marriage. Only the husband can dissolve the marriage by giving his wife a bill of divorce. The Court could scourge, fine, imprison, and excommunicate him to force him to deliver the necessary bill of divorce to his wife. However, if the husband is stubborn enough, he can refuse to grant his wife a divorce and keep her tied to him indefinitely. Worse still, he can desert her without granting her a divorce and leave her unmarried and undivorced. He can marry another woman or even live with any single woman out of wedlock and have children from her (these children are considered legitimate under Jewish law). The deserted wife, on the other hand, cannot marry any other man since she is still legally married and she cannot live with any other man because she will be considered an adulteress and her children from this union will be illegitimate for ten generations. A woman in such a position is called an agunah (chained woman). In the United States today there are approximately 1000 to 1500 Jewish women who are agunot (plural for agunah), while in Israel their number might be as high as 16000. Husbands may extort thousands of dollars from their trapped wives in exchange for a Jewish divorce.

    The Jews do not worship Ezra NOW! But what about 1400 years ago? Do you know the Story of Christ’s Birth and how the Jews freaked out when they heard him speak? The Jewish priests felt this child Jesus was dangerous, they felt that the people would turn their worship to Allah the Almighty Alone, displacing the existing Jewish tenets. This continued till Muhammad PBUH was born and then he became a Prophet and when he set along to do his Dawah, the Jews said: “We worship Ezra, the Son of Allah,” and the Christians said: “Jesus is the Son of Allah,” and the Magians said: “We worship the sun and the moon,” an the Pagans said: “We worship idols.”

    Just because there is nothing written about it anywhere, doesn’t mean they didn’t say it! The Torah and Bible were revealed before the Quran, so obviously it wasn’t there in it! Because this actually happened at the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH! Or Maybe they just forgot what they said, eh? Selective amnesia it is called!

    Don’t even get me started with the Inheritance rights of Women as per Christianity and Judaism!

    The Biblical attitude has been succinctly described by Rabbi Epstein: “The continuous and unbroken tradition since the Biblical days gives the female members of the household, wife and daughters, no right of succession to the family estate. In the more primitive scheme of succession, the female members of the family were considered part of the estate and as remote from the legal personality of an heir as the slave. Whereas by Mosaic enactment the daughters were admitted to succession in the event of no male issue remained, the wife was not recognized as heir even in such conditions.”

    Why were the female members of the family considered part of the family estate? Rabbi Epstein has the answer:
    “They are owned –before marriage, by the father; after marriage, by the husband.”

    The Biblical rules of inheritance are outlined in Numbers 27:1-11. A wife is given no share in her husband’s estate, while he is her first heir, even before her sons. A daughter can inherit only if no male heirs exist. A mother is not an heir at all while the father is. Widows and daughters, in case male children remained, were at the mercy of the male heirs for provision. That is why widows and orphan girls were among the most destitute members of the Jewish society.

    Christianity has followed suit for long time. Both the ecclesiastical and civil laws of Christendom barred daughters from sharing with their brothers in the father’s patrimony. Besides, wives were deprived of any inheritance rights. These iniquitous laws survived till late in the last century.

    Among the pagan Arabs before Islam, inheritance rights were confined exclusively to the male relatives. The Quran abolished all these unjust customs and gave all the female relatives inheritance shares

    The Jewish tradition regarding the husband’s role towards his wife stems from the conception that he owns her as he owns his slave. This conception has been the reason behind the double standard in the laws of adultery and behind the husband’s ability to annul his wife’s vows. This conception has also been responsible for denying the wife any control over her property or her earnings. As soon as a Jewish woman got married, she completely lost any control over her property and earnings to her husband. Jewish Rabbis asserted the husband’s right to his wife’s property as a corollary of his possession of her: “Since one has come into the possession of the woman does it not follow that he should come into the possession of her property too?”, and “Since he has acquired the woman should he not acquire also her property?” Thus, marriage caused the richest woman to become practically penniless. The Talmud describes the financial situation of a wife as follows:

    “How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his…… Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband…” (San. 71a, Git. 62a)

    Christianity, until recently, has followed the same Jewish tradition. Both religious and civil authorities in the Christian Roman Empire (after Constantine) required a property agreement as a condition for recognizing the marriage. Families offered their daughters increasing dowries and, as a result, men tended to marry earlier while families postponed their daughters’ marriages until later than had been customary. Under Canon law, a wife was entitled to restitution of her dowry if the marriage was annulled unless she was guilty of adultery. In this case, she forfeited her right to the dowry which remained in her husband’s hands. Under Canon and civil law a married woman in Christian Europe and America had lost her property rights until late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. For example, women’s rights under English law were compiled and published in 1632. These ‘rights’ included: “That which the husband hath is his own. That which the wife hath is the husband’s.” The wife not only lost her property upon marriage, she lost her personality as well. No act of her was of legal value. Her husband could repudiate any sale or gift made by her as being of no binding legal value. The person with whom she had any contract was held as a criminal for participating in a fraud. Moreover, she could not sue or be sued in her own name, nor could she sue her own husband. A married woman was practically treated as an infant in the eyes of the law. The wife simply belonged to her husband and therefore she lost her property, her legal personality, and her family name.

    By specifying clear cut entitlement and specific shares of female relatives, Islam not only elevated the position of women but simultaneously safeguarded their social and economic interests as long ago as 1400 years!

    The Quran contains three verses [4:11, 4:12 and 4:176] which give specific details of inheritance shares. Using the information in these verses together with the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) as well as methods of juristic reasoning, the Muslims jurists have expounded the laws of inheritance in such meticulous detail that large volumes of work have been written on this subject.

    God commands you in (the matter of the division of the inheritance among) your children: for the male is the equivalent of the portion of two females. If there are more than two females (with no males), for them is two-thirds of the inheritance; if there is only one, then the half. As for the parents (of the deceased): for each of the two is one-sixth of the inheritance, in case of his having left a child; but if he has left no children and his parents are his only heirs, then for his mother is one-third. If he has (a surviving mother and, together with or without sisters,) two or more (surviving) brothers, then for his mother is one-sixth – (all these commands to be put into effect) after deduction for any bequest he may have made (provided such bequest is in conformity with the relevant teachings of Islam) and any debt (incurred by him) (– first the debt is paid, then the bequest is fulfilled, and then the inheritance is shared). Your parents and your children: you do not know which of them is nearer to you in (bringing you) benefit. This (law of inheritance) is an ordinance from God (that you must absolutely obey). Assuredly, God is All-Knowing (of your affairs and what benefits or harms you), and All-Wise.

    Now lets say he has 1 son, 2 daughters and both his parents are alive and lets say he has 300 coins.

    The Parents get 1/6th of the inheritance each, that is 50 coins each. Now we have 200 coins left. The son gets 100, the daughters get 50 each.

    50+50+100+50+50=300!

    So its correct!

    Oh, and also, these are the amounts the respective heirs/parents HAVE to get. For example, the Parents HAVE to get the said amount but the Brothers need not get exactly 100 coins and the sisters exactly 50 coins…The rule is the Brother gets the amount of two sisters, so they might give 20 coins to charity, the brother takes 90 coins and the sisters take 45 each!

    Or lets say he has 3 daughters, and a mother alive and he has 300 coins,

    The Mother gets 1/6th or 50 coins. We have 250 coins left. The Daughters get 2/3rd of the Inheritance, that is 166.8 or lets round it up to 167 coins amongst themselves! These are the amounts that they HAVE TO get. The rest may be divided as wished!

    Lets go to your problem:
    if a man dies leaving behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents,

    Lets say he has 300 coins.

    Since he has children, she gets 1/8th of what he leaves behind, that comes to around, so she gets 37.5 coins. The Mother gets 1/6th of the Inheritance, i.e, 50 coins. The daughters get 2/3rd of the Inheritance, that is 200 in all (For all the three daughters, so each of them gets 66.6 coins each.) These are the amounts they HAVE to get. The rest can go to charity or other relatives!

    Go learn some math!

  86. Oh, and now are you going to delete my earlier comment? I thought you were FOR freedom of speech!

  87. Oh, this is just so tiresome.

    I already told you that I don’t care what the Bible and Talmud say since I do not hold them to be examples of anything. But you just couldn’t resist another cut-and-paste, did you?

    For the mentally impaired, I repeat: my comment did not address alimony. My comment addressed division of marital property post-divorce. Let me break it down to you in small, bite-size chunks:

    Example: A couple marry and live together for 30 years. Man goes to work and woman is responsible for childcare and housekeeping. Over the years they accumulate a nice house, a beach condo, substantial retirement funds and insurance policies, all paid for by the husband. 30 years later, the couple divorce. The children are grown so no child support is due. Reminder again that the wife never worked and her contributions to the household consisted of childcare and housekeeping.

    Question: What does the wife get post-divorce?

    In Islam: 3 months of living expenses

    In the West: half of nice house, beach condo, substantial retirement funds and insurance policies

    Hint: in the Western law, everything acquired by husband or wife after marriage is considered joint property regardless of who pays for it.

  88. “Oh, and also, these are the amounts the respective heirs/parents HAVE to get. For example, the Parents HAVE to get the said amount but the Brothers need not get exactly 100 coins and the sisters exactly 50 coins…”

    Provide evidence that the Quran says anything at all about priority of distribution. Provide evidence that parents HAVE to get the exact amount but siblings don’t.

    Hint: it doesn’t.

    Typically, when pressed, Muslim jurists will come up with mental acrobatics to say that the math will work if you apply the distribution rules AFTER someone’s share is deducted. Complicated mathematical tricks ensue – as if 7th century desert-dwellers were supposed to manipulate numbers with Einsteinian deftness. So it’s not the share of the total inheritance, but the share of whatever is left after someone else’s share is deducted. There is nothing in the Quran whatsoever to confirm this position. This is just what people come up with to make the non-sensical make sense.

  89. “Just because there is nothing written about it anywhere, doesn’t mean they didn’t say it! The Torah and Bible were revealed before the Quran, so obviously it wasn’t there in it! Because this actually happened at the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH! Or Maybe they just forgot what they said, eh? Selective amnesia it is called!”

    I will take the word of Jews on what they believe over the words of Muslims on what they think Jews believe. There is absolutely no non-Muslim sources confirming that Jews worshiped Ezra at any point at all. If Torah, which was revealed way before Quran, survived to present day, any subsequent reports on Ezra-worshipping would have survived, too. But they didn’t. Because they don’t exist.

    And the logic of “if it’s not written up, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen” can be applied to just about anyone to prove anything at all. Example:

    “I think Muslims used to eat Christian babies and walk around in high-heel shoes singing O Tanenbaum.”

    “No they didn’t, there’s nothing written about it.”

    “Just because there is nothing written about it anywhere, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen! Maybe they just forgot, eh!”

  90. For instance, here http://www.khalidzaheer.com/qa/867 is an earnest attempt to resolve the inheritance problem. It’s an honest question by a honestly befuddled person.

    The scholar responded that the solution was to prioritize some shares over others, and then apply the Quranic proportions not to the whole inheritance, but to what is left after distributing priority shares. In this way, the math was made to work.

    There is only one problem: there is nothing in the Quran to support this strategy. This is human ingenuity at work to manage the question with impossible terms. I also don’t buy the reference to classical Arabic of the Quran. It is either there, or it isn’t. A clear book of instructions should be clear, and the inheritance math rules are nothing but.

  91. I find very long comments with lots of paste/copy too boring to read through. So I don’t.
    I commend you for having the patience NN!
    And I enjoy your comments, it’s always good to read the voice of reason.

    Aliadrw, What do we care about Christianity or what’s written in the bible? We all know Islam is for a large part plagiarized from the bible, which in it’s turn is plagiarized from the Thora and 4 bits of extremely dodgy and historically unsupported descriptions of a dude called Jesus.
    So what of it? What do we care that the bible is also a stupid ”magic’ book? With of course lots of stupid unfair stuff about women, marriage, inheritance, etc. It is a book written by primitive immoral misogynist men who were light years behind us in subjects of morality and justice. As is the Quran: put together by a power and sex obsessed ancient warlord and his cronies.
    Now it is not my business if you think you need an invisible imaginary friend, and if you have chosen which ever particular magic book as the only true one. But this does not qualify you to comment on other people, what they wear, how they live their life.
    Quite the contrary.

    NN, I thought it was Atheists who eat babies (and kittens) for breakfast?

  92. @alia – wht has the bible got to do with distribution of property in case of divorce, the bible can say whatever the heck it wants i don’t see any judge granting divorce or property settlements based on the bible.

    the koran is brought into the pic becaseu this is a saudi blog and saudi arabian judges grant divorce/property settlements by following the koran ( or so they claim)

    I will say repetedly irrespective of if you are muslim or not as a woman you DO NOT want the saudi courts resolving your divorse, the outcome is almost always never good for the woman.

    i repeat this again and again so even if 1 peson hears our family’s exp that’s one young woman not going thru the agony my SIL went thru.

    I’m no tdebating if islam is better or bible is right or the torah is to me they are all the same. good and bad depending on who and how they are practised.

    and seriously you should know this is you are in saudi .

  93. aliadlw:

    Actually the divorce rate in Saudi is 62 percent.

    Personally I don’t care if people get divorced as quite frankly if the relationship is toxic or abusive they should get divorced. It is better for the couple and the children. I know several women who decided they don’t want to get married, who are independent and just wanted a child. They have done great for themselves. So divorce is not a bad thing many times. Also being a single parent isn’t a bad thing either.

    The reason many people didn’t get divorced before was due to the stigma and they hated their spouse and their lives. So which is better living a life with the person you hate or getting out of it then having a better life for all? I say get the hell out of toxic relationships for it is better to live alone than with someone you hate, loathe or just plain cannot stand.

    Stop citing the entire koran or hadith. I have them already. To me they are make believe tripe full of hate. It was an invented religion with a make believe prophet who was a murdering, lying, slavery inducing, hateful, rapist, pedo, war-mongering, blood thristy, evil scrizophenic.

    So all your going on about the koran and hadith only further proves the above paragraph. Christianity and Judaism is also make believe tripe.

    You are not going to convince many here that religion has much in the form of any redeeming quality. In fact in my assessment – it has zilch.

  94. @NN it wasn’t very nice of you calling aliadlw or anyone for that matter as having mental disorder. just wanted to say that. getting really tired all of a sudden on all these on going debates of who is right and who is wrong. i didn’t imagine to see this much of argument. Salam (Peace)

  95. @Bigstick or whatever ur name is, You say that:

    “It was an invented religion with a make believe prophet who was a murdering, lying, slavery inducing, hateful, rapist, pedo, war-mongering, blood thristy, evil scrizophenic.”

    Please gimme proof of all that you have accused the Prophet PBUH of being!

    I am a peaceful Muslim! I’m sorry I cannot use the kind of language you guys have used! I mean you guys call yourselves civilized? Is this the kind of language Civilized people use?

    Allah has allowed and guided mankind to chose one of the ‘two ways’: one is of the guidance to Allah’s Way, and the other is the way of Shaitaan. He has clearly shown man the two ways, and guided mankind by appointing Messengers and sending the Book of Guidance. And Allah has given mankind the intelligence and the free will to choose between the Right and the Wrong Ways, without any force or pressure!

    Whoever amongst mankind chooses, with his own free will, reasoning, and intelligence to follow the Right Path of Allah, he is guided aright. Whoever chooses, with his own free will, to follow any other way, then he has chosen the path of Shaitaan, and has thus gone astray!

    May Allah SWT guide you all on the right path!

  96. @ Mrs Bawazir, Jazakullah Khairun! Assalamu Alaikum!

  97. @aliadlw, Alaikumsalam dear and don’t take it too hard when anyone bad-talk about our religion. Just dua’a 🙂 way inyakum.

  98. Qora’an is a complete Sahifah in all respect . It has all the deeny ahkam. It has specified the Laws of merital relations . Misyar is a clear
    innovation in Deen. It has no mention any where in Qora’an , as such it
    is an interference in deen and a clear cut innovation which is prohited and haram . If a cult in their zeal to fulfill their carnal needs invented to justify a kind of prostitution , it is their personal act and only they are responsible for its consequences in the hereafter. Main stream Islam, the Sunny majority and the Shia minority have nothing to do with it . There are some minor differences between the Shias and Sunnis on another marital relationship that is called Mutah with most Nikah rules intact but with the provision of muddat.( Fixed Time till the Nikah remains valid) . It was allowed in Prophet ‘s time,is mentioned in the Qura’an was practiced by some sahabas but was abrogated during the rule of the 2nd Ruler. .Shias still consider it valid but in my 75 years,I never came accross any family in which this kind of Nikah had taken place . This is a clear picture , if some peoples have uncontrolled carnal desires and want to fulfill it any way why take shelter behind the pious and sacred rules of Islam. Innovators are destined to nowhere but Hell .

  99. aliadlw,

    The quran is a copied twisted version of Christian/Judaism that used the title of Jesus (Muhammad) confused with a person.

    There is no original koran, the existing korans are incompleted and written in the 8th century with language that has so many different variance that it is a damn joke. It was codified in the 9th century to try to eliminate the variances and numerous scholars objected.

    The quran is not written in arabic as a 1/3 of it cannot even be translated under this language. Thus reducing down the codification to a damn lie. You actually have better luck with SryoAramaic language which then reduces the language that cannot be disciphered to 5 percent. Which changes everything you have every learned about the koran and it fall neatly into the whole Judeo/Christian messed up mix.

  100. @Ms. B

    I agree that it wasn’t particularly nice of me, but then I do not particularly are about being nice. I enjoy being right more than being nice.

    You’re a newcomer to this community, so you are not aware that over the last 3 years various zealots, usually new converts, have come and gone. They all sound the same, talk the same, cut and paste the same nonsense.

    I am very happy usually to live and let live; as a nonbeliever with a Saudi husband who lives in a multicultural city in the U.S., I better be. I am completely happy to leave your beliefs to you, unchallenged. Believe in Islam, in clouds, in Spaghetti Monster, I don’t care. It’s your thing. I’m OK with your faith being the best in your eyes. For instance, I love my country. It has flaws. It doesn’t have to be perfect to deserve my love. Same with religion.

    I get involved when people begin spouting nonsense about how their brand of religion is the best because it does A, B and C, and in reality it does no such thing. Then I chime in. The unfortunate, and very common outcome is that a common convert is no match for my wit, my turn of phrase, my logic and my sarcasm.

    (I’m also 7 foot tall and extremely good-looking.)

    It ends in a couple of ways. One is they get petulant. “If you are going to be like this, well I’ll leave! Waaaah! How dare you!” Second option is a faked injured dignity. “It’s OK, sister, you are deluded, I will pray for you.” Stick around long enough, you’ll see it all.

    Then again, perhaps it wasn’t very nice of me. It was an unequal battle to begin with. I got education, eloquence, humor and fabulous writing style. What does someone like alia have? Knowledge of three keys: Copy, Paste and Exclamation Mark. Like taking candy from a baby, really.

  101. NN, you forgot te victim card, another popular strategy, ”You are attacking me! You are so mean!”

  102. @NN
    you are not aware that over the last 3 years various zealots, usually new converts, have come and gone.

    I’m neither fond of zealots either, and I think that it is only fair if you are really against zealots of ANY kind, then you will see that not only are the zealots from a few Muslims here but mostly from the atheists as well? As you can see, no matter WHAT topic Carol puts up, she puts up different topics but in result, same ol same ol discussions to bash religions (consistently Islam) and their need to PROVE that only their atheists point of views are accepted in the modern world. Now, surely you are not a person of double standard? I did come across rather intelligent opposing views from commenters such as Radhaa,wzrd and a few others though but the rest were just repeating the same “i hate religion” speech.
    As per converts, the ones i usually come across in real life are usually dignified, well mannered and knowledgeable especially in Islam and various religions (since they conducted countless researches before making their decision to enter a whole new religion).

  103. I will happily bash other religions on other blogs which have another focus as Bedu.

    In my experience converts, and people who have been ”brought up in the faith” actually know very little about ……..(insert faith of your choice). And they usually know nothing about the history and the other faiths their faith is based on.

    The reason why most believing people change their mind and decide religions are made up is because they learn and do know these things.

    The reason why atheists cannot follow their wish to just live their own lives is because the faithful wont let them.
    They keep on demanding special treatment, they keep on trying to push their specific ”morality” onto other people, they keep trying to set up rules and restrictions and punishments to everybody else.
    And in places where religions have enough power they do so by force and violence.

    The religious continue with treating women like crap, and committing atrocities all over the planet. That is why atheists, humanists, and rational people all over the world are starting to come to the conclusion that we need to rid the planet of the evil of organized religion.

    You can believe whatever myth and invisible sky-daddy you like, but you cannot force those believes on other people.

  104. You can believe whatever myth and invisible sky-daddy you like, but you cannot force those believes on other people.

    And you can choose not to believe in “sky-daddy” etc but you cannot/should not force your disbelieves on other people.

  105. I don’t force anything., Pointing out where the magic books get it wrong, and where dogma is wrong or just plain evil is not ”forcing” my ideas on anybody. It is nothing else than pointing out flaws or lies, or immorality.
    For example: it is a lie that Arabia was some sort of super barbarian uncivilized area before Islam came along. That is not true.
    I don’t like to see lies and untruths perpetuated.

    Pointing out where dogma is lying is not forcing anybody to think as I do. That would be a silly thing to aim for anyway. Only religious people think they need to do so.
    But I will not sit idly by and let people lie in front of me. Or let them support evil and immorality before me.

  106. Farside’s three-step guidebook for a successful polygamous Islamic marriage.

    Step 1 — Equality in Sexual relations

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Farsideology:_Lesson_6_-_SEX

    Step 2 — Organization of the wives

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Farsideology:_Lesson_9_-_Four_Wives
    Step 3– Marriage Fidelity

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Farsideology:_Lesson_11_-_Marriage_Fidelity

    Kind Regards,
    Farside of wikiislam.net

  107. Repeating the same issue over and over and over in the same pushy manner, suggesting people of religious backgrounds are far less intelligent in religion and history and ultimately suggesting a particular group of people are the only ones who knows history and what is what is rather unbecoming and did I mention, pushy.

    I have seen that it is not only the religious who are obsessed with enforcing rules on what to wear. In countries such as France, Denmark, Germany, and Italy there are laws prohibiting people (especially women) from wearing certain kind of clothing. For example, the simple headscarves were banned in schools in France and Germany, in courtrooms in Denmark, Islamic swimsuits were banned in Italy. If it was an issue of security, the face veil being banned I would understand. I lived in UK for 5 years at a time where the intolerant were a non issue and I hv seen teachers and students alike wearing normsl headscarves and it didn’t seem to make a problem.

  108. Farside, I will add another rule which should make life better for co-wives:

    All women can have one extra husband.
    So they won’t be alone when their other husband spend time with the other wives, and so they can have their sexual needs met, and their need for companionship and a full equal healthy relationship, and so they have somebody they can trust, and so the children will have a constant father figure in their lives.

  109. Mrs. B – I agree that women should be able to wear what they want anywhere in the world. I do object to the niqab though in my country at least.

  110. Mrs. B

    I don’t have problems with whatever women want to wear. However it becomes a security issue on the face veil and quite frankly it has a statement that says stay away I am a fanatic. People in the west consider the face to be part of the whole interpersonal dynamics and it sends a message that says don’t speak to me and I am hidden or up t something that is not so good.

    It also give people the fear that you might be carrying a weapon or some other destructive device. As clothing typically hides these things. Ask someone in Columbine, CO what they think of people wearing black trench coats and you will have them get nervous since this is what people hid guns in and killed numerous teens at a high school.

    Then whether you like it or not it is a symbol that is seen by many women as just offensive as it symbolizes hatred, subjugation, death, oppression to women.

    Now I know that in many countries women have been harassed in western countries for not wearing head scarves or face veils. Some raped and I even heard that one woman was set on fire and killed in France to warn other women to dress more modest or they might suffer the same fate. There has even been teachers harassing girls on wearing a scarf over their heads and tell them that the girls would be prettier wearing it than without it. Also there have been women harassed on college campus by muslims on their dress wear as it is considered immodest by their standards.

    In Austrailia, you have muslims who have stated that the lack of head gear/modest dress is a reason to rape women. There was even that Imam who made the statement that what do you expect if you leave out uncovered meat with hungry dogs/cats. It will be attacked thus sending a message to western women that muslim men will rape you if you don’t wear certain clothes. So, in the face of this I can fully understand why some countries choose to ban certain clothing as it creates security issues and harassment to women who don’t wear the religious symbols of modesty. In Russia women are being killed, blown up for not wear the head gear, shot with paintballs and forced to put on the head gear and certain dresswear with men standing outside the colleges and state buildings with AK47’s to ensure that they dress Islamically. So you tell me which one is better.

    Look at what happens even in Israel and the whole modesty dress issue. The Fanatics are harassing 8 years old girls and spitting on them to wear more modest clothes.

    So before you go all nuts on the issue of dresswear on how unfair it is you need to see why some people have concerns and that their are two sides to this story. This type of dresswears has been used against women and some have paid dearly for not wearing this dresswear to include their lives, being raped, tortured, etc.

    Therefore what I am stating is that just because it my be your right, it is also the right of others to ensure that the general populace feel safe and secure in the person. That includes not feeling intimidated by symbols to which include dresswear. If you dress a certain way in a classroom or learning enviroment that make people uncomfortable or fearful is this actually going to be a good learning environment. I guareentee you that you will not find anyone allowed in school or a government building with a KKK suit on as this is deem to incite hatred. Some people feel the same with the all black garb that is worn by women as this to them sends the same type of message to which they find intimidating and creates fear.

    What you don’t understand is there is a point of tolerance and then it becames a point of safety and harassment. The dress issue is being pushed by fanatics against those who would other wise not have an issue with it however, they are hurting women and children in the process of demanding that modesty be adhered to. Thus creating a society that is no longer tolerant. So maybe muslims and the religious fanatics only have themselves to blame for the intolerance of others as they go to far in their demands and in their intolerance towards others.

    Therefore the tolerant are becoming far less tolerant. See the problem and the cycle.

  111. It’s about time rational people become less tolerant. This neurotic covering of women is the first and a very important step towards curtailing their freedoms and human rights.
    I don’t care what ever sugar coated reason some deluded women might have for sweet talking hijab and further covering, this is the reality.

    I think it is insulting and offending for rational thinking humans to be confronted with women who are covered as if every part of a women is a sexual object, as if a woman is a sexual object and nothing else.

    You know what Muslims all over the world do when they are ”offended”, they start riots, they burn, pillage and kill innocent people.

    I think the rational intelligent part of humanity is being very reticent until now in comparison. And Bigstick is right, as soon as Muslim communities ”take over” an area in the west they immediately start harassing and threatening and even abusing women who do not comply with their barbaric misogynist neurotic views. And sometimes they even rape them or throw acid in their faces. How sick can a religion get???
    Do not countries like Saudi Arabia claim the right to force all women into an abaya?
    Surely the developed free countries of the world have the right to forbid these excesses of oppression and misogyny? Why do Muslims complain?

  112. Who says Islam recognise Misyar . Nikah is mentioned, Mutah is mentioned , can any one quote misyar from the Qora’an . It is simply an innovation and haram , so how can you expect there will be a provision for the lady . The money one paid for the misyar service is all what she gets , like , as one pays to the prostitute before consumation Marhabah Wahabi Islamic Laws
    Shia-Sunni muslims dont consider it Jaez but only fael e Haraam. .

  113. @ zaheerhusain: “can any one quote misyar from the Qora’an”

    I don’t think you are well versed in either koran or hadith :)-

    Koran: Surah An-Nisa Verse 24

    Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al Tafseer, Number 4559
    Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42
    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255

    Here is an interesting article on “Misyar Experiences”:

    http://muslimonline.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4037

  114. Bigstick, Mrs. B said she understood that the niqab might be denied and rightly so if it is a security issue. Did you not read that? I also didn’t see her go all nuts. I think you are continually looking to pick a fight here.

  115. Mrs Bawazir,

    I cannot understand why you say abortion is bad for women. Surely the right to choose is a positive thing? I had several abortions when I was much younger and I was in an abusive relationship.Im so glad I was able to do this because these abortions saved me from being trapped in an awful life with an abusive man, who forced me into having unprotected sex with him. Luckily I managed to leave him and he is now a distant memory. Im so glad there are no ties with him.

    I couldn’t say no to the unprotected sex, but luckily I live in a country that allowed me to say no to the pregnancies that I never wanted. I can’t think of anything worse than being forced to have a child I did not want with a man that I hated. And if I had been forced to have the children Im sure they would not have had the best lives, as they would have been unwanted, unloved and resented.

    If a child is not wanted, surely it’s best for it to be aborted rather than to be born and bought up in a unhappy, unwanted, unsuitable environment. This type of upbringing will result in damaged human beings.

    The world is very overpopulated. It can’t cope with all the people that exist now. If more people prevented pregnancies or had abortions there would be more resources for the people that exist now and there would be less famine problems, less unemployment problems, etc.

  116. Wendy:

    I spoke on the whole issue from face veil to the head scarf and how they are used in a manner that has harmed women in the west and why there has been some restriction put in place. I was giving the totality of the situation.

    Next, I assure you Mrs. B is quite capable of trying to slap me down. I just like the hits, besides I am attempting to give her a different side of the coin. She is quite good at throwing verbal balls of fire my direction. I have experienced them first hand. 🙂

    However, I am sure she appreciates your attempts of protecting her from the ogre that is me. 😀

    Maybe the phase don’t go all nuts on me was not well put. It is just a phrase for me of please don’t go all ballistic on me. Just discuss it.

  117. Perhaps its just because I have been following and participating on this blog for so much longer than you that I am tired of the same old, same old bashing.

  118. Kat,

    Banning abortions may be terrible, but using them as a form of birth control is, in my opinion, equally terrible. At this day and age no one can claim that birth control is inaccessible. I can understand one oops pregnancy, but having a number of them one after another is hardly a mark of genius.

  119. Bigstick, you are just too cute!

    Kat, I am so sorry to hear you were going through a traumatic relationship. It sounds to me that your ex raped (forced to have unprotected sex with) you?!?! That is truly heartbreaking, and my heart goes to you. In my understanding and opinion, after much pondering, abortion is needed in the case of rape and when the mother’s health is in danger. But, just in my own personal opinion, in the matter of eliminating an unborn child (especially once the foetuses’ shape already resembles a human) just to erase evidence of illegal sex or because the child is deemed to be an inconvenience, this is what I consider to be incorrect. I hope you are in a better situation now, without an abusive person. God bless (or if you are an atheist, goodness bless).

  120. Wendy, you are a sweetheart and one of the few reasonable people on this site when it comes to commenting. You give your thoughts, stay on track and remain civil.

  121. I’ve never had an abortion but I’ve heard they are not entirely pleasant so I find it hard to believe that it would be the preferred choice of birth control for anybody.

    Thank-you Mrs. B although I don’t always succeed staying on track and being civil. 🙂

  122. Misyar or Mutaa marriages are in no way halal, they are never halal, and not sanctioned by Quran or hadith. So many saudi men I’ve known have fooled my american friends into joining into this so they feel less guilty about fooling around while in school in the US, then dump the women when they return home. Irbid, Jordan, the place I live, had such a problem with this at their Yarmouk University several years ago something had to be done. Sick the way some men can use Islam to promote and make clean their lusts. 😦

  123. Wendy, I know this may sound harsh, but my position is that no one in this day and age has unprotected sex more than once unless they want to. I say this as someone who had a rich, varied and diverse sex life starting at around 17 and never once got pregnant till 37, because I dislike the idea of abortions so I made sure to never get pregnant, and I didn’t. Once I decided to get pregnant, I did.

    I get that an abusive partner can force you to have unprotected sex once, but more than once? Nope. If you stay with an abusive partner, know they don’t respect your wishes for protected sex and don’t plan on having children with them, why are you having sex with them? Or staying with them? OK, if you don’t want to leave just yet, but if you can get out of house for an abortion, you can get out of the house for an IUD. Unless you’re tied to the bed for months on end, I don’t believe that you can be forced into unprotected sex. Sorry.

    Yes, it’s terrible to have unwanted children, but the way around it is to not have unprotected sex with men with whom you don’t wish to have children. If I could work with this principle at age 17 in a country with poor pharmacies, so can anyone.

  124. Elena, the real problem with Muta and Misyar marriages is not that they are non-Islamic, as there is actually absolutely nothing in the source to prohibit this. The real problem is that they are not considered acceptable for upmarket brides (young, beautiful and virgin), and a woman in such an arrangement is looked down upon. The only requirement they break is that the marriage ought to be public.

    They are perfectly “Islamic”, whatever that means, because Islam views marriage as a contract and not a sacrament. So you are quite free to put in your contract whatever conditions you wish. It’s perfectly legal. Plus divorce for men in Islam is made so ridiculously easy that it hardly supports the idea of sacredness of marital vows.

  125. NN, not everyone is perfect … perhaps you are and lucky for you if that’s the case. Anyway, it’s not for me to judge someone who has an abortion and they may have one for any number of reasons apart from just not wanting a baby. Every woman is responsible for her own body and can make decisions regarding that body and believe it or not people can and do get pregnant while on the pill. Anyway as a grandmother I defend the right of my granddaughter to make whatever decisions she decides to make in regards to her body and it’s not up to me to approve or disaprove.
    I will also say that it is not always that easy for women to get out of abusive relationships. If you think it is then you’re in a dream world.

  126. Wendy, I understand completely where you’re coming from, and I would not actually ban abortions. I just think that women should be careful toward their bodies. As a grandmother, I am sure you would prefer your granddaughter to not have any abortions. I’m sure you defend her right to do what she wishes with her body, but I am also sure you have opinions about what she prefers to do with it. It’s not wrong to teach young women that abortions are a bad thing and should be avoided as much as possible with careful birth control. I wouldn’t want my daughter to be light-hearted about having one.

  127. And I don’t believe it is the norm for women to have abortions rather than practice birth control. You write like it is something that is happening in high numbers and nothing could be further from the truth. Abortions have been happening since forever all around the globe. At least if they are sanctioned they can be done safely rather than behind closed doors in an unclean space by somebody who doesn’t know what they are doing or by some poor female doing something to herself. Sex education should be taught to both boys and girls from a relatively early age so they can be pro-active and sadly that doesn’t happen in ‘oh so many’ places around the world
    .
    Of course I would hope that my granddaughter never has to endure the mental or physical trauma of an abortion but if she does I will be there for her and hopefully without judgement.

  128. Mrs B-Thank you for your sympathy, I appreciate it.

    NN- I had four unwanted pregancies, 3 abortions and one miscarriage. You obviously think this is awful, and I can understand that. My sister thought so too. Im not stupid, I have a degree now so I can’t be that dumb. But when one is under the spell of a abusive man one doesn’t act with much sense.

    I wasn’t raped by him though, it was just bursts of bloody violence and a feeling that I could not say no. The first pregnancy was just being careless, we had unprotected sex without thinking. He promised to use a condom after that, and I thought he always did. I couldn’t take the pill as it made me too fat and I was considered too young to get an IUD. I never thought Id get pregnant again. He used a condom every time we had sex, I made sure of it.

    I could not understand why/how I kept getting pregnant. But I did. I just thought that the condoms must have failed somehow. I never wanted to keep getting pregnant. I didn’t enjoy my abortions. I never wanted to go through that again. I had to take time off work and it made me feel guilty, Id wake up after it crying my eyes out, knowing Id done something inherently wrong.

    At a later date, after Id wised up and chucked him out. I was going through his things. I found intimate photos of me that he’d obviously taken when I was drunk and passed out. I was 19-25 at the time and I did like to get drunk once a week. After Id been out drinking I would fall into a very deep sleep. He’d taken very intimate photos of me whilst drunk and asleep. I realised he must have also had sex with me in this state. This is the only obvious explanation of why I kept getting pregnant. I had no idea at the time. To me it seems very sick to have sex with a passed out person, it’s like necrophilia. I really had no idea that anyone would do such a thing.

    Put yourself in my place, you keep getting pregnant by someone you hate. If you had a baby your father would disown you and you would lose your job. You would be forever connected to a horrid, nasty man. What would you do?

    I know it was wrong to have abortions, but I do think it was better than giving birth to children that weren’t wanted. I feel that I saved those children from a nasty life. Id like to know why you feel abortion is so bad. Do you think its better for people to give birth to children they don’t want and probably won’t be nice to?

  129. talking about abortion can be as political as carrying a hot potato. I’ve no objection to such a discussion but just wanted to say it could bring about some heated responses either way.

  130. I know, I appreciate your input. I know that Americans attitude to abortion is totally different to the UK view. I find that strange, I know its almost banned in America, but Id like to know why. I just don’t get it. There are so many problems in the UK of kids being bought up by kids, thats why they think the riots happened in the UK this summer. Because teenagers are not capable of being up children to be worthwhile human beings. They don’t teach them enough discipline.

  131. @Kat, et al: I was a “kid being brought up by a kid” and I am very happy to be alive. I’m also well-educated, well-traveled, and an all-around decent person. In other words, my parents seemed to have done a good job at raising me….just sayin’. And also for this reason, I am not in favor of abortion.

  132. @kat – every individuals situaltion, needs and problems are different you should not be ashamed or guilty about what you did, you did what you had to, No one but you can decide if it’s right or wrong, We live but once, we should do whatever it takes to lead a happy life and if that’s the route you took so what? I think god wants us to be happy and the god i believe in does not nitpick, discrimintae, have a log book for rules, count my errors etc., as long as i do no harm to others and am able to help society in whatever little way i can and live happily without much regrets i thnk i have served my purpose.

    As for the abortion debate, it IS your body, YOUR choice, YOUR decision to do what you want with it. You are educated and know right from wrong, your parents educated you , what you do with that education is upto you.
    so from my end i will never say abortion is wrong, it is simply not upto me to decide what is right and wrong for others. it is your GOD GIVEN CHOICE , your BIRTHRIGHT to decide for yourself .

  133. Strangeone, well thats good. But not everyone would make good parents. Im 37 now and I still don’t think Im mature enough to raise a child, so I definitely couldn’t have done it at 19.

    Im not as happy to be alive as you. I have often wished Id never been born as Im fairly disappointed with life, I certainly wouldn’t want to bring another person into the world and subject them to this life.

  134. Well said, Radhaa!

  135. It is utterly wrong to say that Islam recognises Misyar . There is absolutely no mention of Misyar Zawwaj any where in Qora’an neither it is in any authentic hadees , as such it is an Innovation and any innovation in Sharah is a bida’a Haram. Now rights come from Laws , when this kind of marriage is unislamuc and outside the perview of mainstream Islam, both Sunni and Shia , how can there be any rights
    as such it is just like one goes to a prostitute , pays (may call it Mehr) butit is simply fees for her servicing . Wahabi – Salafis have found this as a good way of satisfying their carnal demand .

  136. The whole abortion issue should be left to the woman and her doctor. Everyone else should stay out of it as it is her body and her health. Thus making it her decision.

  137. SO next time someone is booked for attempted Suicide , Cops should be told , mind your own bussiness , what a foolish argument . Even MTP is a grave sin , a SIN against humanity for the human kind of course, I am not talking about the beasts / wild animals .

  138. zaheerhusain, on April 11, 2012 at 10:56 pm said: It is utterly wrong to say that Islam recognises Misyar . There is absolutely no mention of Misyar Zawwaj any where in Qora’an neither it is in any authentic hadees , as such it is an Innovation and any innovation in Sharah is a bida’a Haram.

    I think you yourself is utterly wrong :)- I don’t think you are well versed in either koran or hadith either ….

    Koran: Surah An-Nisa Verse 24

    Hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al Tafseer, Number 4559
    Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42
    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255

    Here is an interesting article on “Misyar Experiences”:

    http://muslimonline.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4037

  139. @Kat,
    Whether or not you choose to have an abortion is between you, your doctor, and God. I’m not here to judge the life other people choose. However, you asked about abortion vs. young parents so I told you my story and why I’m against abortion. I am open to the idea of adoption because there are many people who would love to be adoptive parents. I hope one day in the future, I can be an adoptive parent or at least be a good role model for others.

    I have been open to the idea of children for a while now and have felt capable of raising children on my own, though I have a wonderful support group. I have a lot of friends that married and had children young and while I am glad I have waited, I’m not adverse to the idea of having children at 18+ (honestly 16+), either. And no, I don’t believe in living off government welfare unless one absolutely needs to. For the record, I currently have no children and am in my mid-twenties.

    If you’re not happy with life, I recommend finding out why and seeing what you can do to be happier. Too many people go through life unhappy.

  140. And suicide should not be illegal either.

  141. I never wanted to come in an argument with an illiterate Jahil in Qora’an who cannot even spell this sacred Saheefah right . Qora’an is definitely not koran with K . Show me the verse with Misyar Zawwaj as mentioned in it and an authentic hadees that such and such person practiced Misyar during the Prophet of Islam time and it was approved by aanhazrat (saaws).The entire Ulmah e Ahle Sunnah agree that this is not in any Fiqh and is entirely the figment of imagination of the diseased mind of Abdul Wahab.

  142. zaheerhusain, on April 13, 2012 at 1:21 am said: Show me the verse with Misyar Zawwaj as mentioned in it and an authentic hadees …..

    Here ya go, my friend. Of course I expect that you will not agree with the translation of the koranic verse and you will say they are all weak hadith. Those are typical arguments that I have come to expect from muslims when they run out of arguments :)-

    BTW, I have seen koran spelled as quran, coran, al-quran. And you spelled it as Qora’an … which is the first time i have seen it spelled it as such. Same goes for hadith, hadis, hadees and so on …. They are all correct!

    Al-Qur’an, Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 24

    [Forbidden to you] are married woman, except what your right hand possesses. This Allah has written for you, and all other women besides these are permitted to you, so that you may seek them out with your wealth, seeking chastity and not fornication. So when you have contracted temporary marriage [istimt’atum] with them, then give them their words. There is no sin on you for whatever you agree to after this. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.

    Sahih Bukhari, Book of “Tafseer of Prophet”:

    Narrated ‘Imran bin Husain:
    “The Verse of Mut’a was revealed in Allah’s Book, so we did it at the time of Allah’s Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Quran to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But a man (who regarded it illegal) expressed what his own mind suggested.”
    Sahih Bukhari [Arabic], Kitab al Tafseer, Tradition 4559

    “Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon hm) he said: 0 people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women…”
    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255

    Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Khawla ibn Hakim came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ”Rabia ibn Umayya made a temporary marriage with a woman and she…”
    Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42

  143. @zaheerhusain:

    What is MTP and why is it a grave sin? Also suicide should not be a crime, however, law enforcement do try to get people to help and at times the people are committed to mental help facilities until they have some professional help but attempting to kill oneself is not a crime, nor should it be. Now the actually act of suicide is no longer in the hands of law enforcement but medical examiners to ensure that they did in fact commit suicide and then they are processed to the morgue until a family member claims the body and arrangements are made.

  144. Abe, Abe, Abe… You have to understand that, to a Muslim, Islam is what they want it to be. What the Quran and hadith say and what Muslims do are totally irrelevant to them. If they don’t want to face reality or deal with simple facts or obvious behavior traits, a thing becomes automatically “unislamic”. If the Quran oozes hate, the verse is ignored; if the hadith mentions some vile deed, as so many do– they must be ignored or deemed “out of context” and/or unreliable.

    Thus you can quote their own texts till you are blue in the face, or cite fatwa’s until the cows come home or even point out examples of generalized practices in Muslim societies until fish learn to ride a bicycle — and, guess what? None of these are “Islamic” in the minds of so many Muslims. It seems that sh!t just happens to Muslims and in Islamic societies, for some unknown, mysterious reason, but it has nothing to do with Islam..

    Also, you might as well stop all the quotes, because, by definition, all infidels are ignorant of Islam.

  145. Zaheer

    Was looking at your WordPress site. It shows exactly why I only read Islamic sites – they are much more, humm, interesting is the word, I guess, than those anti-Islam sites. You have a refreshing view of history even if a rather droll criteria for its interpretation.

    Somehow I get the impression that you are shia – a wild guess!! Your understanding of the threat caused by the saudi-zionists is unique, kind of, if nothing else. Yeah, those jew-loving Saudis are evil!

  146. Kactuz:

    Yeah. I agree. Everytime I bring out the upteen number of hadith that supports the sanctioning and implementation of slavery is islamic and support by islam not only by text, thought and deed. I get the whole argument that is not what it means. Next the whole honor the women and the plethora of hadith/sura/sira that supports that it doesn’t. I hear this but this particular one (out of the great many) is weak. However, I look at the whole totality of the texts, actions and implemenation which all supports my stance that it doesn’t support nor honor women. Quite frankly I am tired of hearing about the fairy tale Islam (one that has never and current doen’t exist) vs. the real Islam (Discriminator, hateful, vengeful, slave inducing, murder, etc.)

    Jay, I sure you see my problem. There are days it just get frustrating on the fact that people can actually still think with their head buried that deep.

    🙂

  147. In practice most- if not 99% of the women I knew involved in these marriages were divorced, in their 40’s and the marriage was kept ‘ secret’ by the man. Thus his family did not know and neither was this women on his family card.

    Secret marriages are not condoned in Islam: from what I know the Quran says: beat your drums loud at your wedding party….

    Usually such marriages brake after 3-4 years as the hope of the wife to make the husband usually by then wanes….

    Then she tries another misyar marriage ( usually men do not marry divorcees as second wives- such positions are usually reserved for previously unmarried 30+ ladies.)

    Ah! I also know of a case where the misyar wife was in her late 30’s and had no previous children. After she got pregnant by her misyar husband he demanded abortion. Neverthelss her brothers stood up to him and she kept her child.

    Generally speaking I think the worst about the misyar is that it is kept secret, gives very little time to the misyar wife, etc.

    For me misyar marriages are really sub-standard.

  148. You’re correct, Gigi, that a misyar marriage is not to be a secret.

  149. what if you are and american and you have kid in this misyar and the muslim man wants nothing to do ith you anymore then what should she do then?

  150. Dear Madam , american , indian or saudi , The product of a misyar act is the same as one goes to a prostitute and she concieves , so the child will grow the same way as the children grow in Red Light Area .
    That is why I always emphasised that it has no Islamic sanction and it is Haram .If powerful rich people devise their own methods of merry making , it canot be given religious sanction .
    And beware , now the gravest event is around , a high priest of the Saudi Wahabi order has given a Fatwah that all the Christian Churches should be demolished and no new construction be allowed . Now you can’t blame Islam for this , for details kindly see my blog on wordpress”Forgotten Covenant for Christians” .

  151. zaheerhusain:

    Pardon my french, “The Hell I can’t.” I blame islam as it is practiced not the fairytale (muslims keep saying but this isn’t Islam) that apparently doesn’t exist anywhere on earth. Again, the hateful Islam that is practiced today is what I blame. Even if this hateful version of Islam isn’t the correct version, the Quran still makes islam sound like hell on earth depending on who you are particular if your women, LGBTs, non-muslims, or a muslims who see differently from other muslims.

    Also, it can be interpreted as such from sources of ISLAM regarding the Grant Mutfi statement.

    Now, tell me where is this Islam that is suppose to be the wonderful perfect state of being, being practiced in the known world? Just want to know. Give me a country. Give me a subset. Give me something because all I hear is a bunch of Muslims going on about THEIR ISLAMIC GOVERNMENTS AND THEIR ISLAMIC PEOPLE AND THEIR ISLAMIC TEXTS AND THEIR ISLAMIC CLERICS WITH THE STATEMENT SAYING EVERYTHING THEY ARE DOING IS NOT ISLAM. PLEASE DON’T BLAME ISLAM FOR THIS EVEN THOUGH THIS IS WHAT IS BEING PRACTICE AS ISLAM.

    Just wondering, can you tell as I am so sick of hearing this statement from Muslims?. Can you?

  152. @bigstick1, I can understand your wonder , I can understand your agony , do you ever wonder how and why highly educated , very well read , people visit , study, research , meet, try to understand , many
    journalists, scientists , men of different religion and just remain awe struck, they don’t believe , it is real , it is the same world in which we
    are living , but such is in minority, very miniscule and you will find it in other parts of the world too , that is asl-islam the real Islam , why dont you go to an Ayatollah in Tehran Iran , or go to Madrasa e Nazmiah in,Lucknow India , meet the principal and his students,live there for sometime and your entire world will change .
    I give you an anology , you go to a Muslim red light basti, live there , they will all say we are believers , muslims ,will you believe them will you call them muslim believers, like Saudi do, you are famillier with them so don’t blame Islam , It is religion of truth, they are the worst practitionars as such every so called muslim do not reflect Islam by his practices . I can go on and on , it is a wast subject and there is a very strong propaganda lobby against it .All american, Jews & Europians.
    Many Convert , but a few cases are now on popular Youtube , Christians , Hindus, had a very different perceptions but when they meet , studied,they converted .It will not be out of place if I tell you that recently the highest priest of this kingdom issued a fatwah asking to demolish all Christian Churches and don’t allow any new one to come up , Is it Islam? , Only the other day I uploaded ”A forgotten Covenant” on wordpress.com , see what The Prophet of Islam said about Christian Churches , how every muslim is supposed to protect them and the people who pray there .So this is Islam , not the Fatwah monger’s. The people who got good guidance, studied and researched found that Islam is right , it is the Truth , it is practical, the ideal but not an easy pie , in that way every good is difficult to achieve and every evil is so easy to acquire. Was Salam wa rehmat Allahe wa Barkatoh.

  153. Bigstick,instead of asking us to gv u an Islamic country thts perfect where in this damn earth is there such utopia! USA??UK?Swaziland?no place exist. for me,my utopia is in my personal life.with my Islamic ideas.freedom nd happiness is a state of mind.

  154. While it may be true that there is no perfect-utopia on “this damn earth”, it is equally true that there are many countries with near-utopia (overwhelmingly in the west), on “this heavenly earth”. I don’t find anything close to utopia in the muslim world on “this damn earth” , except FITNAS all around BIG time.

    As far as “freedom and happiness is a state of mind”, there are 1.3-billion states of mind in the muslim world, each with their own cherry-picked version of islam, and each practicing their own unique versions. Each claims to be the “right” islam branding the rest as kafirs and mushriks.

    Multiply that by over 500 sects/sub-sects (allah/mohammed predicted only 72 or 73), and you have the killing fields and mayhem in the muslim world in the form of sectarian violence on each other and against the infidels in the west. Just click on any online muslim newspaper and it’s all there!

    Besides how good is this so-called “freedom and happiness is a state of mind” bit, when the “thought police” is there to prevent you from exercising your god given freedoms and pursuit of happiness. To Wit: Committee on Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue in many muslim countries (KSA, Malaysia, Pakistan, Indonesia, and the list goes on), Boko Haram (Nigeria), Obedient Wives Club (Malaysia), etc. etc. etc. —- you get the picture.

    How can one indulge in freedom and happiness on “this damn earth”, when such private/public organs of the umma are there to monitor each and every of your moves and actions 24/7. Including Tweets and extra-judicial extraditions :)-

  155. @zaheerhusain:

    All I can say to your propaganda is, “are you freaking kidding me.” You use Iran as a country for helping people understand Islam. I can’t say that is going to win you any brownie points for Islam in fact in just keeps sending it backwards.

    Oh by the way it is stated that of the converts to Islam over 2/3’s leave after finding out “THE TRUTH.”

    Mrs.B:

    You don’t even know what the fiqh is, nor have you ever read the classical manual of Islamic Sacred Law by your own admission. That is what the Reliance of the Traveller is by the way.

    Next I am glad that you can be happy in your mind. By no means do I think you don’t live in a fantasy world wrapped in tinsel of the fairytale that currently is Islam for you but if you had to live as many do in Islam who are forbidden to drive, leave their homes, work,required to cover at all times least you be kindly sprayed with acid, have an opinion, be yourself, insert just about every human right as it is Islamically forbidden and then add sanctioned torture unless your are a muslim man who isn’t openly gay. Then I think you might just change your tune on the whole statement of freedom and happiness is a state of mind because IT IS NOT.

    Freedom and happiness is a state of being to include your mind.

  156. Hazrat Josh Malihabadi , a great Urdu Poet came back to India after decades of partition, things had changed quite a bit , though it was the capital but the audiance level of perception had changed tremendously as he started the boys started hooting , his immediate and prompt composition was :
    Itr e sokhan ko bharta hoon mai sheeshe may qarooray kee
    difficult to translate buy it is something like this .
    The delicate extract of my Poetry , what i am doing , filling in a bottle meant for urine
    So I wasted my time

  157. Zaheerhusain:

    Now I will counter your position with some additional information. By the way the letter is a fake. Long live the neverending lies bought forth by fake documents attributed to Muhammad. Hey, I thought I would even though in a Phd. individual on this one. I mean one good Doctor deserves another.

    http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2010/01/accentuate-positive-dr-muqtedar-khans.html

  158. First Bstick,just because i don’t agree with u, it doesn’t mean that i am ignorant of Fiqh and the fact that i didn’t read a booi by Karen Armstrong in no way suggests that you are knowledge and I’m unaware of my Islamic knowledge.to suggest othwise shows only your rudeness and conceitness ,nothing more.
    What is freedom according to the Islamic perspective and what is its scope and limit?The existence of law in society is meant for the attainment of objectives in social life. Without social life, the material and spiritual interests of individuals cannot be ensured. One of the blessings of social life is that man can benefit from God-given material blessings such as scientific, technological and technical know-how, as well as gnosis and spiritual aphorisms under the supervision of spiritual masters and teachers. Acquisition of this knowledge and gnosis is possible only in social life. As such, law should guarantee human progress along material and spiritual lines, for merely establishing social order is not enough. For example, if two persons, without harming any one else or disturbing social order, agree to kill each other, are they doing a good thing?

    If you can remember, sometime ago, in an American city, a group of people burned to death, and it was reported that these people were members of a religious sect who regard suicide during their rites as the way to perfection! Of course, there is room for question and doubt about this issue. There is a possibility that as this group was regarded antagonistic to the government, it was the American authorities who exterminated them all. Assuming that this group really committed suicide according to their religious conviction, was the act proper?

    Can it be said that since it brought no harm to others and they agreed to commit suicide together there is nothing wrong with what they did? Should the government tolerate such a practice? Should law allow it?If the only criterion is the maintenance of order and security, then this order and security can be established through mass suicide!? And law has no other function.

    I ll continue commenting later since I’m damn busy now.

  159. Mrs. B:

    Point of clarification: Do you think the Reliance of the Traveller was written by Karen Armstrong?

  160. Anybody who is in favor of Misyar – they should allow their sisters and daughters to go for it. I do not accept Misyar marriage as real marriage. I don’t believe in the sanctity of marriage to be trampled upon hiding behind reasons and excuses. Period.

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