Saudi Arabia: Punishment in the Grave


I found this video the other day and it intrigued me.  I think one can catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar.  What I mean by that statement is that I do not necessary agree with individuals who try to place a fear instead of a joy about religion in others.  What do you think?



272 Responses

  1. He is young and feeling zealous. There is a hadith that says, “Have a good opinion of God before you die.” In my mind, Good means merciful. Ameen!!

  2. Angels will hit you with a hammer made of steel! What a load of bs. One wonders where this idiot finds these crazy ideas.

  3. Amazing, people actually believe this stuff. I find it somewhat humorous but at the same time I still shake my head at this BS. Religion feeds on fear of people. Religion just gives faith a bad name.

  4. Wow! First, Carol, you missed one further means of catching the most flies. Rather than using honey, use excrement. Flies love that even more. 😉
    As for THIS person, such innovations of faith! He has angels, hydras and scorpions judging people in the grave, letting the creator off for judgement day. We’ll not even go into the steel hammers that disintegrate your head and they keep hitting the now missing head…
    Frankly, he sounds more Roman Catholic than Muslim in his descriptions of a PRE-judgement that meets no written word in any religious text.
    Indeed, the last one who started dealing out such tripe in my presence was greeted with the address: “Bint haram, ibn Iblis!” The conversation rapidly degenerated…

  5. When I was evangelical, the pastors were guilt mongers, frightening us and pushing us to give more money. Christian giving is 10% and I think that Zakat is much more reasonable.

    It seems that some Muslims try to get up to the same tricks as some evangelicals.

    When I was a Hijabee, I marveled when people would say do this or do that so you will get more points to get to Jenna. It’s just weird.

  6. Gwen, see my Roman Catholic reference.
    If you’re from the US in particular and most of Europe in a lesser extent, you’d KNOW what that “means”.
    One goes to worship when commanded, one goes to special services when commanded, one does what is commanded directly.
    One does whatever, the REST of the time.
    Leaving Islam out, as I’m referring to Roman Catholics, one follows the above on the rare occasion demanded. Blows up Irish Protestants the rest of the year.
    Just as a bad example.
    For the REST of the Roman Catholics, they drink, they eat meat on the “wrong days” and screw around (on the non-mandatory obedience days). As they go to church when demanded, they consider themselves forgiven.
    As certain men of pseudo-Islamic views, who rammed airplanes into very large office buildings, killing 3000 men, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, which is haram in Islam.
    I’m equal opportunity, I’ll pick on the bad activities of ANYONE, even myself.
    That is not accepting it, not condoning it, only acknowledging it.
    Me? I MUST be an angel, as my halo is held perfectly centered by my horns… :/
    OK, I’m a perfect 10. On the Richter scale…

  7. I SHOULD qualify what I said on this:
    I view people on a holistic basis, that of social norms and context of their society, that of religious terms and context of THAT part of their society and their general practices and behavior.
    Overall, GLOBALLY (yes, I have a LOT of global experiences), people are people. They OVERALL, are the same. Social things change some BEHAVIORS, but not the EMOTION. Religious things change some BEHAVIORS (see social, but not as tightly bound). PERSONAL is highly variable, which was more of a danger in my former occupation, hence, more observed rigorously.
    As an example, EVERY people on this planet LOVES an off color joke. In the US, UK and a number of other western nations (and even Russia, overall), crude is acceptable. In Arab and Indian cultures (and those influenced by them), it is not, but a clever turn of tongue (hint of the crude, avoiding the mention of it by far or moderatly near, in clever terms) is highly accepted.
    So, in Arabian nations and any nation influenced by India (one can write great tomes on mutual influence there), “The girl from Nantucket” is flat out.
    But, the “Virgin, on her wedding night at her mother’s home, approached her mother in fright when her husband removed his shirt and she saw a large scar on his arm. Her mother said, it’s alright, it’s alright, go on up to bed and continued stirring the sauce.
    He then removed his undershirt, revealing a tattoo of a ship. She ran downstairs and reported to her mother, who reassured her, “It’s alright, it’s alright, go on upstairs.”
    He then removed his shoes and socks, upon which she ran down stairs, as he had five toes on one foot and three and a toe short on the other.
    “Mom! He has a foot and a half!”
    “You stir the sauce, *I* am going upstairs!”

    I’ve NEVER met a culture that rejected *THAT* one!
    Because, people are people. CULTURE and RELIGION (see culture, as it CAN override religion OR reinforce it) are the variable. One finds commonality, then BUILDS on it, rather than bigstick’s method of attacking that difference.
    Attacking the difference only results in conflict, which discussion is SUPPOSED to avoid and even REMOVE.

    Or as I’ve done QUITE successfully, EXPLORE the differences AND commonalities. Commonalities are QUITE common, some same species thing going on and all.
    The differences are QUITE frequently, REALLY NOT that different, only EXPRESSED differently in transliteration.
    Because, at the end of the day, translation is BS, CULTURES color language, some (such as English), lack common terms with the other language, which causes the “grand divide”.

  8. Hilariously, and invincibly, stupid.

    He’d have been better off reading the grave description in “My Name is Red”. – at least there’s a literary and imaginative thrill in that.

    Obviously, the best way to save oneself from the problems of snakes and scorpions in the grave is to be buried in Ireland.

  9. I think I’ve seen this or one like it before. I was totally unfamiliar with grave life until I met my Syrian friend, and he told me about his faith. I was taught “to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord” for believers. I was surprised to learn that believers (as well as unbelievers) in Islam have to endure time in a grave.

  10. Cremation could cure all these grave issues.
    he’s just trying to make a living, the more he scares people, the more they will turn ot him, get a following and hopefully become someone important – survival is what i see. and if people are stupid enough to believe his snake oil sales — meh too bad for them .

  11. Punishment of the Grave? Oh yes. It is gleaned from the detailed scientific miracles predicted in the koran and hadith. It was thoroughly peer-reviewed in the scientific journals during islam’s unglorious bronze age while Europe languished in the infamous stone age. Rest is in the trash bins of history.

    Here is another peer-reviewed article (also peer-reviewed by allah/mohammed), from an islamic scientific journo-blog, with all the gory details:

    Of course, Allah/Mohammed Ta’ala Know Best :)-

  12. I studied the stages of moral development in grad school and remember the lowest stage was motivation by fear. This seems to be universal in people.

    There is an American Evangelical Minister, Carlton Pearson, who stopped believing in hell and preached accordingly. Consequently his congregation dwindled and I believe he was excommunicated by his organization. It was an interesting situation as it demonstrates that it isn’t just the leaders that have/want the fear motivation but the lay people as well.

    This young man in the video is right in there with many folks of many religions. The whole thing is pretty sad/funny but I have to admit I didn’t get much past the angels with the hammers.

  13. do his statements have a koranic backing?

  14. It is really written in the Quran that the unbelievers will be punished in the grave and after the ressurecton.
    Quran clearly talks about the punisment of PHARO in the grave. It is mentioned in the Hadth as all depends on the belief.
    But I would suggest that do not wish to experince yourself, then it will be too late.

  15. Yes we Muslims believe of punishment AND reward after death. I find it utterly disgraceful and arrogant to mock in what others believe. U want us to practice our religion behind closed doors but it’s acceptable for you to ridicule something that perhaps to you are crazy and nonsensical but to billions of people are true. No everything is as direct and tangible and revolves around your minds. Since when was insulting others OK?! And there are more rewards mentioned for the believers than punishments. Abe, you are distasteful and I mean that with all my heart because unlike wzrd who respectfully disagree, you insult and what was the last part u wrote, Muhammad Taala? U and few others would not fare well in community that are full of diverse because of your childish attitudes and your absence or simple Respect. Sure, your arrogance will say oh i don’t respect people who can believe in fairy-tales bla bla. Time people learn some manners. You’d think with all the ‘freedom’ you have, some of you could afford some manners and Openness. I realize that some here conjured exercise of freedom into ill mannered.

  16. Mrs. B:

    As someone who doesn’t believe I find it utterly disgraceful and arrogant to have to constantly listen to the religious push thier agenda’s in the public for all my life. To be told that I will enter hell and damnation for my lack of belief. To have to see people force their religious agenda down the throat of others, to be enslaved, prevented from have medical procedures, to have equal rights, to be themselves and I have watched this go on here in the USA and it has been and currently is being done systematically in the Arab/African world. Quite frankly when the religious want to respect others by shutting up and stopping their attacks on humanity then they will get it until then I will not stop pointing out and speaking my peace on their fairytales and all the plentiful holes, contradictions and just plain stupidity of the religious text. Why should I have respect for a belief system that pushes allah/god sanctioned murder, whoredom, discrimination, racism, gender apartheid, deception, etc? Tell me why should I respect one of the most hateful ideologies currently practiced?

    There are actually countries that it is illegal to be agnostic or atheist. In this country the non-religous are continually under assault by the religious and their form of hatred that is fairytale god/allah sanctioned. Until this changes don’t expect many to respect the worst offender for disgraceful arrogance (religious) of the whole damn lot.

    Now here is a excellent article not written by me on the great joys of what the religious are implementing for women in Islam and non-muslims.

  17. Mrs. B:

    Oh, by the way. I thought you would enjoy the fact that I actually do read blogs on religion and to a degree actually agree on certain points and sometimes all points depending on the subject matter. There are some extremely interesting stuff in studying the history and archeology of how religion was formed. I just don’t believe religion has anything to do with the cosmic forces of anything. It is just a bunch of ancient people trying to figure shit out and they assigned the unknown and the fear of dying to a deity figure as a means to tone down the fear of the abyss and their fear of the unknown.

    This is also an excellent site with very interesting developments of the ancient religions to include many of the concepts of today’s religions.


  18. Therefore your comments are based on bitterness n resentment because to you since some extremists are making u unwelcome therefore u too turn to extremism and ridicolous hatred towards people of eye for an eye makes the world a blind I cannot be sympathetic towards you since You’re an despise religion n its followers to the extend that it doesn’t matter if u insult n disrespect. Makes no difference to me, i love that I’m a Muslim. Many others too. N try as hard as u want, Muslims we remain.

  19. And if u hate the religious shoving their belief down uour throat, well tit for tat.

  20. Mrs Bawazir

    Whilst it’s perfectly true that you believe in both punishment AND reward after death, it would only be fair for you to also acknowledge that the standard orthodox muslim position is that there is no reward, ONLY punishment, for either unbelief, or different beliefs.

    I have no problem with orthodox muslims saying that, although it’s an incredibly arrogant, insulting, and to my mind, ethically deficient, position to hold; but I have no wish to intrude on anyone’s liberty of conscience or free speech rights. However, that in no way abrogates my liberty of conscience or right to express my thoughts, however derisive, “disrespectful” and mocking that you might find them. If you want to express your belief in the tortures of the grave that will be meted out to those who persist in their unbelief, then I’m afraid that you will have to deal with the mockery that such a belief is going to arouse in others.

    Look at this way, I think that we’d both agree that torturing the living on the basis of their believing, or not believing, something would be wrong, profoundly disrespectful, and a violation of human dignity; but you seem to be ok with the idea that we can disrespect others in death, purely on the basis of their presumed theological errors.

    As far as I can see, you seem to want to your rights to disrespect others respected, but at no point will you permit the inverse.

  21. @Mrs Bawazir.
    On the one hand you have no problem with orthodox muslims who are arrogant,insulting etc.
    Secondly you think it is disrespectful to human dignity torturing the living on the basis of believing.
    I know you are scared of torture in the grave because, may be of your deeds.
    I would suggest that ” AVOID DEATH” (DON@T DIE). SIMPLE

  22. Sami dear,where on the premise of my comments did i approved of any form of disrespect? Got some eye checking to do. Now, according to any law in the west, especially America, freedom of belief is sacred but i m pretty sure insulting anyone on the pretext of freedom of speech is unacceptable, u can be haul ino court and sued. I m pretty-pretty sure there is a reason tht the law disallow insults of others. Just out of curiosity, if u don’t believe in Islam, why re u concerned whether our holy text states tht the unbelievers will be punished after death? U shouldn’t worry as u don’t believe it to be true. We re not going up to non Muslims n damning them, especially not on this forum.seems the other way round, Athiests are the one being unbelievably pushy n shoving their theory down our throat n making attacks as if their lives depended on it.

  23. Dan,as far as u can see, u r not seeing very far. Nah, I’m not interested to disrespect others, I’m Highly tolerant if anyone disagrees with my beliefs except when they personally attack my beliefs.i ll be damn if i turn out to be an extremist like bstick,Abe etc.

  24. N as far as i know,the holy text are not addressing the disbelievers but rather more of reminding the Muslims to be aware of being disbelievers

  25. All in all it really shouldnt matter what the Muslims believe coz we sure never lose sleep of other religion n their holy text,violence or threats fascinates me how worked up unbelievers get with Islamic issues.they get so violent with hatred,from tye comments here is enough,as bstick said he wishes to see the demise of All religions.

  26. @ MB

    I find it utterly disgraceful and arrogant to mock in what others believe

    Likewise, I find your comments equally and udderly disgraceful and arrogant to mock others’ freedom of speech and thought. Exactly in line with what organization of islamic countries have been pushing the UN resolution to criminalize any critique of islam. Malaysia/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan have been at the forefront at their “thought control” efforts in kafiristans.

    Obviously, islam is not compatible with “democracy”, as is clearly evident from the last 1400 years of mayhems and assassinations of its’ caliphs and kings. It has always been invariably successions thorough assassinations and military coups; and certainly not through elections, starting with the first three rightly/wrongly guided caliphs (all of them murdered in mosques while praying).

    Perhaps, MB, if you can’t stand any critique (what you call disgrace/arrogance/mockery) of islam, you should get out of the AB Kitchen and start frequenting islamic websites very early and very often. There, y’all can sing kumbayas together, since no dissent is allowed :)-

    you are distasteful and I mean that with all my heart

    May allah swt and mohammed saw and aisha ra and abu hurraira ra bless ya, please!

    Let me leave you with a few quotes from the sages, both ancient (Seneca/Roman Orator) and contemporaries (H.L.Mencken/American Essayist & Sir Richard Burton/Explorer/Writer/Orientalist):

    A compliment is something like a kiss through a veil

    You can not debate with an ignorant or unintelligent person. They never recognize when they are losing, and always think they will win.

    Haters don’t really hate you, they hate themselves because you are a reflection of what they wish to be

    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

    Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable

    Sometimes the journey of a single step starts with a thousand miles in the opposite direction

    More I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.

    Fridays/Saturdays/Sundays: A day given over by the faithful to wishing that they themselves were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in Hell

    People never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it for religious conviction

    First Law of Doomsaying: Always predict catastrophe soon enough to worry people, but far enough in the future that people will forget when you are wrong

  27. Lastly,don’t get caught up by some extremists who threatens with their ideology then paint the whole followers into one ugly picture.bstick,u r aware of my encounter with a Christian extremist ik NYC, i was aghast but i wouldn’t and refuse to indulge into tht horrible episode and claim all Christians are really should have brighter perspectives towards others. per this topic, i hardly foresee Muslims going up to non believers n damning them with eternal punishment.most Muslims wouldn’t careless about what goes on in their non believing peers’ minds.

  28. Abe, despite its obvious benefits, we cannot be myopic or overly optimistic by failing to recognize the propensity for such a right to be abused. As such, we see that rights are not absolute and they cease to be ‘rights’ as soon as the exercise of that right infringes on the rights of another. Hence, we cannot assess individual freedom in a vacuum and must put it into a real world context. Free speech, like any other freedom, has the potential for abuse and such abuse results in a clash of interests between societal good and individual liberty. An obvious illustration is extremism. Extremists, who hold views widely divergent from those of mainstream, conventional thinkers, are famous for inciting violence, resulting in social upheaval and hence disrupting law and order. This occurs because certain individuals choose specifically to prey on simmering feelings of resentment, which may exist beneath the surface. This could shake the fabric of society and cause great confusion and possibly violence. This happened in Britain . In 1989, a new political party quickly gained popularity in areas north of London such as Birmingham and Westhampton. Being strongly nationalist, they managed to bring to the surface racist sentiments which ultimately culminated in wide-spread racial violence, the worst witnessed in England in twenty years. Hence we see that the abuse of freedom of speech threatened the security of the country and this is something that cannot be condoned, much less thinly veiled by the argument of it being a ‘basic right’. In such instances, it is in the best interest of society to contain, to some extent, the right of the individual for the good of society.

    Thus, it is evident that while the intrinsic value accorded to rights is not entirely imagined, it is sometimes over-hyped and exaggerated and therefore must be taken with a pinch of salt. We cannot then blindly protect the right to free speech without properly taking stock of the wider implications of the actions of the individual. So, while it is a great injustice to deny people of their basic right to freedom of speech, it is justifiable to choose to curtail the rights of some for the good of society, and to avoid the case of possibly bringing about a breakdown of societal cohesion and a disruption of law and order and peace.

  29. I remember Carol requesting somewhere from comments debasing a system etc while commenting click here n see. So yeah I’m not leaving abe.

  30. Mrs Bawazir

    Thanks for the clarification, I find it heartening that you don’t actually believe that I wil be tormented in the grave and then subjected to the indignity of eternal suffering on the basis of my unbelief.

  31. I WOULD like to hear the verses that proclaim punishment before judgement. I’ve heard claims that it is said, but not the reference.
    I’ll also say that I chuckled when the speaker claimed that an image would be presented of Islam’s prophet and Muslims would recognize his image, as THAT is highly un-Islamic. It hints at graven images, hence would be considered as an idol that people would recognize.

    Mrs Bawazir, in the US, free speech, association, expression and religion is a paramount right. However, the limits are sparse.
    I’ll give the example of the 9th amendment to the US constitution: ” The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
    That has been the source of legal doctrine that states, communities and individuals cannot have rights curtailed that are not enumerated in the constitution AND that the rights of one cannot suppress the rights of another (such as in religious or ethnic persecution).

  32. So in the end what does it matter what somebody chooses to believe or not believe? I am ‘the master of my ship, the captain of my soul’ and what does it matter to me if some Evengelical or whatever religionous person is telling me I will go to Hell if I personally don’t believe it. That person can tell me that all they want because I have my own thoughts in my own mind. I’m also sure there are many ‘practicing’ Muslims who don’t believe what they hear either. They just choose to shut up and get on with the day to day living. Some of you speak as though what this video guy says is going to affect you personally. If somebody wants to believe him then what is it to you who don’t?

  33. Wendy, I totally agree. This video doesn’t bother me in the slightest nor did my reading of the Quran. Talk of my fate (according to the Quran) with boiling water and prickly fruit made me smile actually. So does grave life. I’m sure people who read the Bible can also smile at our version of things and that’s perfectly fine. If you believe it’s fake, don’t let it bother you!

  34. Salam Carol! Hope all is well w/u,your health & family
    Read about most of the torture he described. Hadn’t heard about the scorpion and never heard that we were to ID a pic of the Prophet! Didn’t know anyone but the people he encountered in his time knew what he looked like. Have heard that we will be asked what Prophet we followed.

  35. Mrs B. Since when was insulting others OK?

    Good question. Since you follow a god that says that we, non-Muslims, are “lower than animals” (look it up, its easy to find in your sacred Quran!) I guess that the answer is “since Mohammad and Allah decided to wage war upon non-Muslims”.

    Mind you, we don’t even have to do evil – just having “unbelief” is enough for us to be subject to horrible, brutal torture. Of course, if you read the hadith, you will find that your dear prophet was no slouch himself when it came to barbaric torture.

    But then again, this video with this fine young example of Muslim intellect is only following the noble traditions of his god. If you ever read the Quran you will find that your god PERSONALLY likes to roast unbelievers over a fire until their skins come off — and he then somehow restores their skins so he can do the torture all over again. Nice. Maybe we deserve this because we write unkind comments on blogs about your religion. I mean, you know, instead of doing evil by criticizing Islam we could be out doing the good work of Allah raiding, attacking others, plundering them, torturing, enslaving men women and children, raping captives and doing all those other things that your noble example and great prophet did so we could get to paradise and have either our eternal orgy or grape-eating snack (depending on your interpretation of the easy to understand holy writ).

    Yet, according to you, it is non-Muslims that are filled with violence and hate.

  36. Wendy thts exactly it.y should it bother them since they dont believe

  37. True tht wzrd but there is a term called extremism which sums up most of the commenters tht a good thing?

  38. @MB

    So, while it is a great injustice to deny people of their basic right to freedom of speech, it is justifiable to choose to curtail the rights of some for the good of society, and to avoid the case of possibly bringing about a breakdown of societal cohesion and a disruption of law and order and peace.

    Many of the long rants and babyish whinings by MB here (copy/pastes in some instances from idiotically useful websites) has seriously “debased” the “system” of freedom of speech and free expression of thoughts, cherished by many of us here in the west. She has consistently advocated for curtailment of such freedoms and thoughts “for the good of the society”. Exactly along the same line as malaysian and other islamic rulers and kings/sultans who enforce it in their own countries and stifle such liberties and freedoms. Exactly along the same line as Mohammed and Hitler and Stalin and Mao and many other tyrants, who used the same argument of “for the good of the society”. This is not “debasing” but historical facts!

    As Wizrd1 has correctly pointed out: free speech, association, expression and religion is a paramount right in the US. However, the limits are far and few and sparse …. an example would be the commonsensical restriction of hollering fire in a crowded theater. I encourage MB to continue to entertain us with her long rants so that we can carry on a meaningful dialogue in this “marketplace of ideas”. Sunshine, like it has been said, is the best disinfectant!

    One thing that consistently comes across out of MB postings/rantings (reading between the lines) is that she is screamingly DEMANDING respect for islam. Perhaps she hasn’t learnt the Golden Rule: One cannot demand R-E-S-P-E-C-T. One has to E-A-R-N it. None of the religions or cults or systems have earned my respect, most especially Islam. Neither has Mohammed nor Hitler nor Stalin nor Mao nor many of the other despots. This is not “debasing”. This is “based” on my study of religions and cults and history.

    MB, you are on a one person simultaneous jehad and daawa rampage against freedom of speech and thought, using the time-tested method of cherry picking from koran/hadith and intellectual acrobatics :)- And you are trying to force others to be sharia compliant.


    …. i hardly foresee Muslims going up to non believers n damning them with eternal punishment. most Muslims wouldn’t careless about what goes on in their non believing peers’ minds

    Really? One doesn’t really need to foresee into the future. One only need to look into the present and SEE and hear each and every friday when imams damn the jews and christians and hindus with eternal punishment, comparing them to apes and pigs and exhorting the muslims to “kill the infidels” and become martyrs/shaheeds and be instant winners of 72 houris or white grapes.

    Of course, muslims care about messing with “non-believing peers’ minds”. I live on the west coast in a condo complex. On fridays especially, I see muslims in their peguin-like attires going door to door doing their daawa to convert people warning them of the damnation that awaits them if they don’t. I understand that there are regular daawa missions (similar to mormons) sent to kafiristans, many times sponsored by their govts. If this is not caring about converting the infidels, I don’t know what is.

  39. Imagine a real life extremist goes up to someone n tell them their religion is stupid.what would be the result.mayhem because no one accepts insults.the correct way is lay your thoughts WISELY n if people disagree, time to move on.

  40. Abe abe, I’m ranting? Look at yourself dear coz u sound like a broken hate gramophone spewing insults and malice. I’m not asking or even expecting anyone to be sharia compliant.but as wzrd said one finds commonalities n build on it rather than Bigstick’s method (and abe here) of attacking on differences.perhaps u and those friday imams u despise have more in common in terms of ‘idiotic ranting’!?!

  41. Try living in the real world abe and we’ll see how great you come along with your ‘freedom’ of speech aka Hitler style Athiest fundamentalist approach.

  42. It’s such a cheap ruse, making up all this torture nonsense to frighten people in ”believing” and ”loving” (what a joke!) some imaginary invisible bully.
    It’s really sad that religious people are allowed to torture little children with this crap.
    But I suppose that’s the whole point, get ’em while they are young. Small children will believe anything, from Santa and the tooth fairy to god.

    I would mind less if they hadn’t invented ”hell” and hadn’t made up all this nasty evil torture stuff, and if their holy books would have more decent morals.
    But then what can you expect? Some fallible, selfish evil people without proper morals made it all up, and it shows. Everywhere. In the magic books, in the flawed morality, in the evil imaginings of torture and suffering.
    These were nasty, evil, selfish, small minded human beings and they invented nasty, evil, selfish, small minded gods.

  43. Abe, first, there is no penalty for yelling fire in a crowded theater. That was an EXAMPLE used by ONE SCOTUS (US Supreme Court) justice in an opinion as an example. No codified law exists or can exist to penalize such a thing. Indeed, any statute that existed that COULD prohibit such speech would lose in federal court, as it could exhibit a “slippery slope” and be abused to prohibit any incumbent’s opponents speech in the political and social arena.
    In short, it’s an old urban myth.
    I’ll also disagree with you about respect. ANY being DESERVES respect until they EARN disrespect. To believe otherwise permits one to disrespect all until they earn respect, potentially by force. That is the path to barbarity and totalitarianism!
    I DO find your reference to penguin-like attire interesting, as that describes a certain Roman Catholic order of nuns. THOSE are a group I am intimately familiar with, as I attended catholic school for quite a few years. They also tended to teach some more advanced religious things, which are far from what the priests approved of (“unauthorized books” contents and contexts, etc) for advanced students.

    MrsBawazir, some of my fondest memories from my years in Qatar are of sitting up late with Saudi friends, whilst discussing our similarities and differences and faiths, whist imbibing of the haram. Their choice of beverage was theirs, not mine. But, we did so with honest expectation of learning about each other’s beliefs, cultures and habits (remember, Qatar has a state store system for alcohol). NONE of my Saudi friends liked extremists or terrorists, they hated them with a passion.
    Even in areas that were considered “hostile” to westerners were areas I had no problems with, perhaps because I gave respect to another as a right, rather than as a privilege. On the few occasions where one was aggrieved at my presence, the others present would pull him aside and tell him that I’m a good man and give me a chance. Never had a problem with that individual after, indeed, I was warmly greeted.
    THAT all said, I DO, on occasion, side with atheists, when religion is brought up to cause disagreement and problems (something regarded as fitnah to Muslims, perhaps we need a word (other than a reference to a rectum) in English for such habits). However, THIS blog is most certainly NOT a place where one particular religion is out of bounds, due to its intimate connection with the culture being discussed. EVERY religion that I know of has been abused to cause conflict. All. That doesn’t mean that faith is warlike, it simply means that verses dedicated toward self-defense of the practice of one’s faith are abused by power hungry individuals in the course of their attempt to gain power.
    Many problems come from the buffet people, they pick and choose verses to support their argument, ignoring the CONTEXT of said verses. One meets such in any faith and even in those who adhere to no faith. Indeed, some even choose to argue about the US constitution’s second amendment by arguing about a semicolon, ignoring the journals and diaries of those who penned it for the rationale behind it and the courts interpretations over the past two centuries. When one picks and chooses phrases and even parts of phrases, places them in a particular order to support their argument, they may as well have chosen individual words and placed them into sentences to prove their point, as such selection ignores the intent of the phrase chosen, ignores sociological context and temporal context.
    For temporal context, that would be the sociological context, turns of phrase and age in which they were recorded from. 2000 years ago, social norms were different, indeed, many didn’t change until a few hundred years ago, which was variable by region of the world.
    As for extremists, I’ve met far too many in my life, indeed, I’ve met quite a lot in war, they didn’t fare very well. I may love peace greately, but US tax dollars were quite freely spent to ensure I’m highly proficient at war, symmetric or asymmetric and one particular skill is that of turning an opponent’s argument against them. Because, it IS true, there are many opportunities to disarm a potential opponent with a few well placed words. Even more so when one has inagery. We turned an entire Afghan village to our “side” by simply playing the attack on the WTC, of which they were previously unaware. Their culture is one that rejects invaders, of whom have been rather plentiful over the millenia, but a justification calmed their fears about our presence. Especially when I explained that my cousin, one Michael
    Stabile died on the 84th floor of the south tower.
    Respect (until disrespect is hard earned), honesty and presentation of facts wins the day many, many times.

  44. I must be attending the wrong masjid “each & every Friday” because I don’t “see” or “hear” these “damnings” where I am going!!! Perhaps thats a “west coast” thing!!!

  45. Tahmat, I’ve heard such firy speech uttered (OK, a bit different and highly damning of the US) in Qatar, in one of the off limits areas. Said speaker was well known as anti-US and highly fundamentalist.
    Indeed, the choice of phrases actually reminded me of Christian fundamentalists.
    The reception was pretty much what one would also see at said Christian fundamentalists sermons. The crowd, poor workers.
    The effect, pretty much nil. Which was interesting, as the place was a quarter mile from a US base that I was deployed to.
    Quite a few on the periphery of the crowd tended to shake their heads at some points as well.
    THAT said, the penguin thing is more Roman Catholic than Islamic, unless some Muslims on the west coast changed their abayas for habits.

  46. Wzrd,your wisdom brings peace in me.

  47. Funny should u mention Stalin n Hitler since they are fundamentalist atheists at its worst.

  48. Aafke-art – it’s called control. Keep people afraid and you will control them. That’s pretty much basic in most organized religions isn’t it? Such a pity.

  49. @Wendy. I agree with you 100%.Had there been no fear, no control and this world must have been a mess.
    No fear of punishment, no law abiding.

  50. Wendy, yes.

    mrs Bawazir, you should not use Stalin and Hitler as examples of atheist leaders, both Hitler and Stalin created dogmatic systems, with a supreme leader, exactly the same way religions operate, moreover Stalin was training to be a priest at an early stage in his life and he clearly learned a lot there.
    Hitler was a Catholic, the first treaty he made was with the Catholic church, until the very end the Catholic church ordered the sheep to pray for Hitler on his birthday. The Nazi soldiers had ”Gott mit uns” as their motto. ”God with us”.
    There’s nothing atheist about Hitler. Hitler considered himself religious, doing ”God’s work” and was fully supported by the church.
    It’s high time this silly inaccurate propaganda by religious apologists comes to an end.

  51. sami, I am sorry you consider yourself such a pathetically bad human being that you cannot believe yourself to behave in a decent way without threats of torture and punishment.
    You know? I think better of you. I think that you will do the right thing without blackmail and terrorism.

  52. Aafke,i disagree about the faith of Stalin and Hitler based on historical facts but I’ll refrain from arguing,you were polite in your comments.

  53. I apologize in advance for the paste copy.
    From Hitler’s speech, his own stance on Christianity:

    *”My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.”

    “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

    The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day*

    And these are only a few of Hitlers statements, taken at random.
    It is historical fact that the pope fully supported Hitler and had all German Roman Catholics pray for him on his birthday.

    Hitler hated atheists btw’

    * I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany’s entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years.”

    So please, do not continue making comments which are not based on facts, and the facts we do have wholly contradict your comments.

  54. ”Atheism by itself is of course not a moral position or a political one of any kind, it is simply the refusal to believe in the supernatural dimension.”

  55. Copied n pasted.

    Actions oh Hitler spoke louder than words.

    Donohue (2/4/99): “Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, ‘It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'” The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, “Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn’t know Christianity and syphilis.”

    Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended “to stamp out Christianity root and branch.”

    As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: “I’ll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.

    Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn’t fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

    In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: “For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to.

    Hitler made it clear that he “hated Christianity” and was going to eliminate it when the war ended (see Kershaw, 2000). One reason Hitler “hated Christianity” was because he believed that “it had crippled everything noble about humanity” (quoted in Kershaw, 2000, p. 936).

    In Hitler’s words “the heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity” (Hitler, 1953, p. 6). The Jesuits were “swine,” and all of Christianity was “Jewish Christianity” which was comparable with “Jewish Bolshevism.” Hitler concluded that both were evil and both had to be destroyed (Kershaw, 2000, pp. 330, 488). His reasoning was based on his belief that Christianity was an “illegitimate” Jewish child and, as a Jewish child, was swine like its parent that must be eradicated. Hitler considered Christianity the “invention of the Jew Saul” (Azar, 1990, p. 154).

    A major reason Hitler opposed Christianity was because Hitler saw Christianity and Science as diametrically opposed to each other (Azar, 1990, p. 154). He concluded science would win, and the Christian church would eventually in due time be destroyed. Hitler even believed science was the creation of the German race. Hitler was trying to use science —especially Darwinism —to create a utopia on Earth, and he made it absolutely clear that there would be “no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches” in his plans for the future of Germany. He realized that this was a long term goal and “was prepared to put off long-term ideological goals in favor of short-term advantage” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 238). Hitler had to fight one battle at a time —and elected to take on the fight with the churches in due time. The Christian church would be destroyed later, and for now it was needed. Only after the war would Germany be able to fully implement the “final solution” to the “Christian problem” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 516). In the meantime, “calm should be restored … in relations with the Churches” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 39).

  56. Atheism, as commonly defined by atheists, expresses a lack of belief, or disbelief, in deities. It is not a positive belief in anything, but a negative concept. That is why atheists, inasmuch as they are atheists, are nothing like a coherent or concerted group. Organizations like American Atheists serve a role of broadcasting information more than anything else, because there cannot be concerted action when nobody agrees on what to do (except of course on direct concerns like the rights of atheists or separation of church and state). Most atheists disagree strongly on whenever atheism should be propagated, or promoted, and on the matter of doing so. By Francois Tremblay.

  57. Sucks doesn’t it, to constantly be unjustly judged and ‘debased’. Taste of some own medicine is bitter so i apologies in advance.

  58. Mrs. B:

    No, it doesn’t suck as what you have provided is a distortion. However your religion is currently (Currently) implementing discrimintory practices, slavery, hatred, persecution of apostates, heretics and other religions, allowing children to be married off, allowing women to be enslaved and having their rights taken away. What is sad is that you are not facing those issues on what your religion is currently inflicting on the world. Just recently your government put an atheist in jail for putting up his disbelief in God. You are supporting this and you are doing what all muslims are currently doing, which is redirecting from the problems that are currently going on in your religion. You are supporting (maybe without even realizing it) the implementation of a lie that your are going back to the grassroots when in fact you are just going back to the beginning of the Wahhabi movement which is completely different even from the fairytale origins of Islam. You are supporting the Wahhabi doctrines and their movement. It is a movement that has spinoffs of Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Al-Shabob. It is a movement that has ensured women have no standing, are legal dependents, non-muslims are to be killed or enslaved, and to inflict intolerance and their form of hate and racism.

    However since you want to go down the path of the past that will not help your future and will ensure your daughters or granddaughters’s life to be restricted in a manner dictated by the doctrines of that of Wahabbi or Taliban. Then let us continue.

    Some quotes from Hitler:

    Hitler – 23 March, 1933 :

    “The National Government regards the two Christian confessions (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) as factors essential to the soul of the German people. … We hold the spiritual forces of Christianity to be indispensable elements in the moral uplift of most of the German people.”

    Hitler – 1 Feb, 1933 :

    “The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”

    Hitler – 1941 :

    “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

    Hitler – 22 April, 1922 :

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.”

    Hitler – 15 Feb 1933 :

    “Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. ”

    Hitler – 24 Oct, 1933 :

    “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

    Hitler – 26 Aug, 1934 :

    ” National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.”

    Hitler – 12 April, 1922 :

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.”

    Hitler – 27 October, 1928 :

    “We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian.”

    Hitler – 23 November, 1939 :

    “[I] never lost my belief, in the midst of setbacks which were not spared me during my period of struggle. Providence has had the last word and brought me success.”

    Hitler – 24 February, 1939 :

    “If positive Christianity means love of one’s neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians.”

    Here is an excellent debate:

    Hilter hated Atheists and made statements to the fact.

  59. yeah, let’s stop this now. Hitler was a christian, he was a member of the Catholic church, his ”concordia” with the Roman Pope was his first international treaty. All Nazi soldiers had ”God with us” on their belt buckles.
    It really is a silly notion to keep hoping that Hitler was atheist.
    The thing with Atheists is that they do not persecute those of different faiths, burn down their places of worship, their holy icons, etc. that is what religious people do. That is part of how religion poisons us. how religion is the best way of making good people do evil things.

  60. Of course my facts are distorted n yourd only are truthful.and of course atheists of militant nature never tried to eradicate religion and its followers.
    Refer to my comment on how Hitler was a manipulator ane pretended to side wity Christianity but based on his actions, one who can think rationally woule and could see his animosity towards religion.

    “The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, published by Harvard University Press, is the work of eleven scholars that ignited a continental firestorm when it first hit bookstores in France in 1997. The authors estimate the century’s death toll at the hands of Communist governments (excluding wars) at 100 million people. Country by country, deaths by the state in China stand at 65 million, in the USSR 20 million, Vietnam 1 million, North Korea 2 million, Cambodia 2 million, Eastern Europe 1 million, Latin America 150,000, Africa 1.7 million, and Afghanistan 1.5 million. Additionally, the international Communist movement murdered about 10,000 people throughout the world.” (Author’s emphasis).

    Daniel J Flynn, “Ideas Have Consequences…Like Murder, Tyranny, and Repression,” Accuracy in Academia, (9 July, 2008).


    A major atheist (Richard Dawkins, I believe) was interviewed not long ago on a national station. During the interview, he was asked to justify the evils perpetrated on tens of millions by the atheist leader, Stalin. The atheist’s response was that the connection between Stalin’s atheism and his great crimes is unfounded. Stalin, he said, had mustaches; could you not use the same logic, he added, and conclude that he killed people because he had mustaches?

    The atheist’s response is foolish to such a magnitude that it is not really deserving deserving of an answer. Nonetheless, for the sake of fairness, we will endeavor to assess his objection.

    Was the philosophy of atheism espoused by communists responsible for the mass murders perpetrated by communist leaders such as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Ceausescu? Let’s look at some enlightening facts that militant atheists prefer not to acknowledge.

    1. Communists leaders were motivated by a strong desire to impose an ideological “package” over the whole world. The package included the eradication of Religion, defined by arch-atheist, Karl Marx, as “The opium of the people.” According to Marx, religion helped keep the masses passive before the abuse of the wealthy and powerful, and the only way to free them from the “stupor,” God and religion had to be eradicated. Lenin embraced Marx’s views and so did Stalin up to the Second World war. The enforcement of Atheism was a “critical” requirement for Communism’s success, and thus it had to be implemented at all costs. This meant oppressive measures, such as brainwashing in state schools, the closing of houses of worship and arresting countless religious leaders.

  61. Why are u asking ‘lets stop this now’ when atheists are on the stand for once?

  62. Hitler was hardly a Christian since he sent thousands of Christians to concentration camps. Observe

  63. Mrs. B:

    How many muslims have killed muslims because they were not the right muslim?

    Hitler, and the Nazis, advocated a form of Christianity called positive Christianity which portrayed Christ as a warrior against the Jews.

    Here is another website.

    Are we having fun?

    How is this helping against the inhumanity that is currently being support by your religion? Just would like to know, how is this going to help your Daughter or granddaugher when they are no longer allowed to leave their house hoping that their male owners are benevolent as they have been freed to be the sex slaves of the husband (owner). How does this help the father, son or any other male that wants his wife, mother, daughter, sister to live free but he must watch them be impisoned by a system that is being forced on him but a growing majority? How does a christian, jew or a non-believer exist in an Islamic country being terrorized by their neighbors who are discriminating against them based upon their different belief which is currently being practiced in your country and upheld by your faithful.

    What do you say to a little girl who wasn’t in a the black sack covering herself as she is deemed an external organ in your religion when your faithful throws acid in her face? What do you say to the teenager in Russia who lost her legs because the beach she was on was rigged with a bomb as a demonstration to women to wear modest clothing. What do you say to the girls who are raped by muslims because they didn’t wear head scarfs or face veils in Australia but your muslim cleric called them uncovered meat? What do you say to the women who were rape and the woman who was burned in France over not wearing the face veil in a no-go zone as muslims enforce their hatred on the female populace in their area of hate?

    When do you stop this and start seeing what is happening in your country and around the world that is being upheld by your religion and those who follow? When do you stop this and began to help humanity by speaking out against the hate religion that is currently being inflicted on your own as well as others?

    When do you see you are supporting a system that is systematically imprisoning, torturing, and killing women, non-muslims, homosexuals, muslims not of other muslims liking and so many by the hate that is currently called Islam?

  64. Mrs. B … I seem to be a good person, don’t I? I am not good because I fear something bad will happen to me if I’m not good. I’m good because I don’t like to harm others. I also do not like organized religions because I think they do way more harm than good.I am especially not fond of Islam in the way that many countries want it to be practiced. Am I an athiest? I don’t know. I am not sure if there is a supreme being. I have trouble believing there is one. I’m sure my Muslim husband sometimes wishes I could ‘just believe’ but he understands that I’m always learning, searching, trying to figure things out and he respects that.
    Having said that I believe that everyone has the right to worship in whatever manner they choose as long as it doesn’t hurt another and as long as they don’t try and force their beliefs on others.

    Sami … One can fear punishment for a crime here on earth, no problem but to fear everlasting hell or whatever, whatever if one doesn’t follow a religious dictate is just nasty and wrong. It is controlling and IMHO religion should not be controlling anyone.

  65. Mrs. B:

    Here is a website that talks about the reliance of the traveller. Since you have never given me an answer to my question on if you thought it was written by Karen Armstrong. So here is a website of two books on fiqh.

    I have them both. The Traveller is over 1200 pages in length.

  66. Mrs. B.

    People commit atrocities in the name of something but does the name of something really matter. Isn’t it what is motivating these people that really matters? Generally what motivates people to commit atrocities are often rooted in quasi religious/social-political or racist ideologies.

    Have you personally known an atheist who has committed any crime “in the name of atheism”? I have been an atheist for a while and as of yet haven’t committed any atrocities to humanity, “in the name of atheism.”

    I have personally known of many deeply religious people who have started unwanted arguments, beaten people up, created nuisances, discriminated against others due to race, sex or orientation and claimed it, “in the name of religion.” I have had a difficult time with the religious over their hateful mannerisms and their discriminatory practices that they insist other abide by and respect. To me, religion is an extremely organized entity that takes very little to incite hatred within its ranks or its group and often times it has devastating effects for many.

    Now you state that this people are atheist but the fact is that they were influenced greatly by religion, politics and power. These people occupied the highest echelons of the political hierarchy with unquestionable power. They would have kill anyone who got in their way whether religious, atheists or other. It was power that corrupted them. Not the lack of religion.

    Atheists are rational people who seek evidence. Who have searched for God, but found none and we accepted the hard fact that there is none..

    For the record, religious people often create/commit problems/organized crime “in the name of religion” whereas atheists don’t create/commit problems/organized crime “in the name of atheism”. If an atheist is found creating problems, then it is certain that he/she is also influenced by another ideology which usually is either quasi-religious or socio-political or racist.

    So there you have it. .

  67. Wendy,from what i know, u r a sweet person. It was not my purpose to say atheists are all bad etc. I was emphasizing on individuals of militant demeanour. They are cancer to society, and will never cease till they can enforce their theories. Yes there were many militant atheists causing destruction on humanity. Karl Marx was an arch atheist who claimed religion as the opium of the people and that God and religion must be eradicated.followers of Marxism and Communism were many n shared the same malice towards religion. Problem is the militant atitude, non respect for others and the self prolaimed I Am Right tht makes us suffer. Much like many ppl here.i personally seen my friend now husband kicked from an institute because he dared to speak his mind about religion to a teacher who was infamous for her radical views on Atheism.her job was to teach English but Many a times she would grind her Atheism in the classroom.

  68. @wendy April20
    No one can control all wether they believe or do not believe. It is just a warning to others here and hereafter. Again it depends how one reacts according to ones belifs.
    If I say to a thief,don’t do ,you will be punished here and hereafter,it does not mean that I am cotrolling him —NO, Iam warning him according to my belifs.
    Take it easy darling,this is the way it works.

  69. What is all this religion and religious. There is going to be one religion in this plannet. Do you know ” Vienna Interfaith Dialogue” is preparing the religious people MUSLIMS<CHRISTIANS< JEWS<HINDUS And BUDHIST to invent one INterfaith Testament acceptable to all religions.
    Wait and see.POPE AND KING ABDULLAH are trying hard for that via dialogue.

  70. sami, I’ve heard that story while I was abroad. It’s an unfounded rumor started to undermine any discussion on peacable coexistence.
    So, you’d rather people of different faiths NOT discuss getting along, which IS what the conference was for?
    You’d prefer things to remain, with religious friction and conflict?

    As for your view that threats of punishment and torture in the hereafter being absolutely necessary, that seems to be at the heart of every organized religion.
    What is interesting is how many religious leaders in Islam who claim that a man cannot control himself and compare that man with an animal. In short, they take their own faith, turn it around and agree with Satan, humans were and are not worthy. They take the message that people CAN do better if they try and turn it into people are beasts and nothing better can be expected of them.
    Of interest, I’ve heard multiple Christian sects say the same thing. It seems that people take one or two passages, then adopt it as a primary message, which changes the meaning of those passages. Of course, it DOES give that religious leader followers, hence power…

    MrsBawazir, you confuse a belief system of a few sick individuals with their actions. I’ve witnessed violence performed by Republicans in the US. Does that mean that they worship an elephant god? I’ve also witnessed a few Democrats being violent, does that mean that the followers of the jackass god are violent? Or is it simply that people will take ANY system of beliefs and turn them into weapons?
    As we know, or should know, that the elephant and jackass are both symbols of each respective party, not deities, obviously there is no religion there. Only faith in a particular party and its political views.
    I went to Roman Catholic school for a number of years. The quality of education was quite good, however, the religious teachings tended to lead the student with a hatred of Jews. It wasn’t a direct teaching, more the “angle”, the spin of the teaching. Of course, that lead those who could analyze what they were taught into a conflict. If one hates Jews, one hates Jesus, as he was a Jew. If one hates Jesus, how could one worship…?
    The heart of the hatred being taught was that the Jews wanted Jesus executed and the Roman “governor” granted their wish.
    When I was growing up, women wore a cloth to cover their hair fairly frequently in public and ESPECIALLY in church (it was required).
    The Roman Catholic built a major standing on blaming women for the fall from grace (Eve convincing Adam to eat the forbidden fruit). The teaching moved on from there to all being guilty of a sin they never committed, the sin of Adam and Eve, which was called original sin. From there, the teachings get complicated…
    However, what followed as a right of passage to age was a ceremony of annointment, which was called confirmation. During the ceremony, the priest states “Soldier of Christ”, the supplicant replies “Amen”.
    That means every Roman Catholic is militant, right?
    OK, not today, but in ages past it was true that armies were raised that way.
    Today, the Roman Catholic church has priests that have been accused, some convicted of molesting children.
    Does that then mean that all Roman Catholic priests are pedophiles? Does that mean all Roman Catholics are pedophiles?
    Or does that mean that a few abuse power to do horrible things?

  71. Mrs. Bawazir:

    Regardless of the ongoing debate whether Hitler was a “christian” (methink he most definitely was) or an atheist, it is a historical fact that Hitler was a great admirer of and had immense respect for Islam and it’s Prophet. And such admiration was mutual (and still is to this day) between Hitler and muslims.

    His autobiography, Mein Kampf or My Struggle, is a best seller in the muslim world. In muslim countries, the title of his book has been translated as “My Jihad”.

    For example, in 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) traveled to Germany as a guest of Hitler, and met with him, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ Final Solution to exterminate jews from the arab/muslim world.

    Hitler and Associates asked tit-for-tat from the mufti to recruit/raise 20,000 muslim volunteers from Bosnia-Herzegovina, which the mufti successfully did. Had Hitler lived and had Nazis won the war, Hitler would have definitely extended his “final solution” to the arab/muslim world to keep his promise to the mufti. In 1945, Yugoslavia sought to indict the Mufti as a war criminal for his role in recruiting 20,000 Muslim volunteers for the SS, who participated in the killing of Jews in Croatia and Hungary.

  72. Sami, I do hope you enjoy your fears. 🙂

  73. I fear God (One GOD). Jesus said fear God?

  74. You are ordered to love somebody whom you are ordered to fear at the same time.
    The essence of Sado-Masochism.

    It just doesn’t ring the bell for me.

  75. You are right Sir. It was next door’s bell and not for you.

  76. @ Aafke-Art 20 April
    Love your Father and fear his anger at the same time.

  77. Sami:

    Jesus is a wash and rinse, repeat version. Jesus is a fairytale. He is the recycled god/man deity born from one of the plethora of virgins. Seriously virgins births are a dime a dozen if you study history you will find numerous stories with so many similarities.

    Jesus the never ending re-run just by a different name, different virgin mother with a different father named god. Be back next week for a new infant born of a virgin who was impregnanted by a newly name GOD.

  78. @ Sami

    Do you know ” Vienna Interfaith Dialogue” is preparing the religious people MUSLIMS<CHRISTIANS< JEWS<HINDUS And BUDHIST to invent one INterfaith Testament acceptable to all religions.

    Interfaith Testament? Acceptable to all Religions?? I can’t wait for WW-4 to start …. depends on which “religion” will blink first or blink last :)-

  79. “His autobiography, Mein Kampf or My Struggle, is a best seller in the muslim world.”

    But I always hear Muslims or at least Arabs (I know they aren’t the same, but most Arabs are Muslims so bear with me) say they welcomed the Jews at a time when European Christians were terrorizing them.


    This reminded me of a book I read a few months ago. It said Hitler didn’t think highly of Arabs racially. In fact they were one degree above Jews. However, when the book “Mein Kampf” was taken to Arab lands, he (the publisher?) wisely took out that part because Hitler wanted those people to be on his side.

    Does anyone know whether or not this is true? I wish I remembered the book I read that talked about this.

  80. “I went to Roman Catholic school for a number of years. The quality of education was quite good, however, the religious teachings tended to lead the student with a hatred of Jews.”

    That is so NOT my experience. I didn’t go to Catholic school, however. Protestant. And mostly Baptist with some Methodists, Presbyterians and nondenominal Christian thrown in the mix. The emphasis for me was the other way completely. And most people in “my circles” are much much much much much more pro-Jews than most any other group. I think this is one reason they don’t support Islam…they hear the media report about crazy Muslims who want to kill Jews and automatically side with the Jews. (Which, yes, they associate with Israel.)

  81. Susanne that’s true, Hitler thought he could make good use of the Arabs because they hated the Jews too, but of course they were far inferior to the Germans.
    He did like Islam though, because of it’s harshness and war mongering, he liked that better than Christianity with it’s wishy-washy peace nonsense.

  82. Susanne, as you said, you went to a different school and probably in a different age, as I gew up in the 1960’s and 1970’s.
    As for Mein Kampf, never saw a copy in Kuwait or Qatar. Can’t speak for Saudi.
    But then, I DO recall Qatar at the end stage of a natural gas deal with Israel, which got screwed up by GCC complaints. The only complaints I’ve ever heard about Jews were about Israelis and their treatment of Palestinians (interestingly enough, not mentioning Jews who lived in what is now Israel and also were displaced from their homes by the Europeans.)
    I also recall an Iranian man asking for a copy of my Fiddler on the Roof.
    Like anything else in the world, much of our perceived “reality” goes into a cocked hat when confronting the real world in person. There are those who meet the “bad” description, there are those who destroy that perception and the rest don’t give a tinkers damn about any of it. They only want to do that get up in the morning, clean up, eat, go to work, come home, clean up, eat dinner, play with the kids, then rinse and repeat.
    People are people. Idiots are idiots. Idiots are loud and people are overall rather quiet. The weaker minded and undereducated can be led by loud noises from idiots and those who seek power.
    The vast majority are rather a lot like me, a good father. When the kids were fighting, I didn’t care about who was right or wrong, that was for later. I only wanted peace and quiet. 😉

  83. So is the fraudulent invention “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, which is prohibited in Germany, is, in Arab and Farsi translations, a perennial best seller in Muslim countries. The Muslim world is the only place in which such scurrilous books are readily available. A recent Egyptian television series of 41 installments, based on the “Protocols,” was a huge success in the Muslim world.

  84. For those of you who would like some additional history on the role of the Catholic Church and Hitler.

  85. SO why you are jelous?

  86. Hi, Bigstick. This is for you not for me.


  87. So sami:

    Is the question on jealous to me? If so in what context is it being used.

  88. بسم الله

    Hey everybody. I read all the comments. I have read too many criticisms in the comments. I noticed a lot of nonmuslims criticizing Islam. I’m a Muslim and I am not allowed to criticize any religion or belief system. We have our beliefs, and we are entitled to them, just like you are entitled to your beliefs. No one deserves criticism.

    Also, please don’t blindly believe what a nonmuslim says about a muslims belief, because they tend to criticize it, because of hatred, misunderstanding, etc. There is a reason why they don’t believe in it. So take what they say with a grain of salt.

    I as a muslim want only the best thing for people. A muslim is supposed to believe that Mankind is the most honorable creation. All people deserve respect as a fellow human being.

    -There is no compulsion in religion, nobody can be forced to believe something, even Islam.

    -I as a Muslim believe an Amazing Creator created me and everything that exists. He doesn’t have any faults or shortcomings. He is perfect in every way, and He wants good for everybody. He only has good qualities and characteristics.

    I take my belief directly from the Islamic Texts. So I hope you can see that someone like me you should try to understand Islam from, and not from a nonmuslim who is attacking Islam.

    I hope and ask that people can at least be sincere in wanting to understand these things, rather than using their negative beliefs and preconceived notions to cloud their judgement.

  89. This guy is completely ignorant. This is an example why I think Islam is dangerous.

  90. @Anon
    If the Guy is ignorant, then guy could be dangerous but not ISLAM. You are genious and you can understand.

  91. @ayunas
    I agree 100% with you. Some people have very shallow understanding.

  92. ayunas:

    Why don’t you fill us in on Islam and the country or place that best reflects it practice. Then by all means tell us what Islam means from you to women, non-muslims, LGBT, or sects within Mulsims who believe differently.

    I will engage in the whole critizing of others if you answer the above.

    Looking forward to your response.

  93. Ayunas, the man in the video lost all credibility when he stated that angels would visit the grave, show you an image of your prophet beat you in the face, causing your head to explode, with iron hammers. All before a judgement by the creator. Perhaps I missed that verse, but I sincerely doubt it. I DID ask for someone to provide the verses mentioning such things.
    First, since when did our creator repeat a message or punishment? For angels to be judging someone before the final judgement is for angels to usurp the authority of the creator.
    Second, producing an image of your prophet would be to produce an image of an unknown man, as we both know that such images are haram! Hence, there is no sense in what he said, as one cannot identify the face of a man whose face was never recorded by history.
    Finally, he seeks the route of fear for obedience to good values. I have never, well, since I was a child, had a need of fear of punishment to behave in a legal and honorable manner. Period. If I was doing something and someone informed me that what I was doing was objectionable, I stopped and questioned what I was doing, then re-examined my actions in the light of the answer.
    Now, can you kindly provide the verses that claim that angels will judge (hence, punish in the grave), as I asked in the above comments?

    As for the context I speak from, I have dear friends who are Saudis, my wife and I (together or alone) are permitted in their home and his wife and mother are not required to cover themselves, as we are considered members of the family by mutual adoption.
    We had long talks, deep into the night on matters of culture, religion and even politics. While our religious views may differ substantially, morally, we’re very, very close in our views. We believe in men showing honor, providing for and protecting their family, culture and nation. And we both know QUITE well how to both be an excellent host and excellent guest. 🙂

  94. بسم الله

    Thanks for your comments. I will try to answer your questions the best I can.

    Islam – means submission. Submission to a Perfect Creator, who created humans, and everything that exists in the universe. He is the most Merciful and Kind, and Loving. He is the Most Wise. He is also the Most Just and Fair, and He doesn’t do injustice to anybody. He helps the people that are oppressed, even if they don’t believe in Him. He is the Most generous, and constantly gives to us. This One God is known as Allah.

    A Muslim submits to this One God, believes in Him, and obeys Him. How to obey God? By listening to what His messenger explained to us. God sent thousands of messengers with the same basic message that God created us, and when we die, there is something that will happen afterwards. i.e. this life is temporary and a test for humans. A muslim must believe in all the Messengers, including Jesus, Moses, and Abraham. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last of these great messengers, whose message will remain until the end of time.

    A major premise of Islam is the belief in the “unseen.” We can’t see God, nor paradise, and hell, etc.. Yet We believe in Him and what He has said. Just because we can’t see something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. So ONLY AFTER we believe that God created us and sent us a message, THEN we accept whatever He said.

    Islam is practiced all over the world. There are many misunderstandings by people, and that will occur with any religion. The important thing to do is have an objective look at the text of the religion. But There is a majority understanding of Islam from the source texts, which I have been explaining to you. Millions and Millions of Muslims understand Islam the way I do. You can find this practice of Islam in the U.S., Saudi Arabia, Canada, U.K. Russia, Pakistan, and many other places.

    As for what Islam means to women, LGBT, etc. I can’t speak for them, because I’m a heterosexual male! hehe. But if you mean that women are oppressed in Islam, that is a completely false notion. My wife has chosen to voluntary wear the head scarf and the face veil, and all her friends as well. She wouldn’t take it off even if given 1 million dollars. Women have been given a very high status in Islam, if compared to all other world religions. Any oppression you see of muslim women by “muslim men” is completely forbidden in Islam, and a big problem. They are either ignorant of what Islam says, or simply letting their emotions get the better of them. Those who justify oppression of ANY kind using Islam have fallen into a major mistake.

    As for the LGBT’s if they believe in the basic premise of Islam, that there is a Perfect Creator who created them, and that they are in this life as a test, and there is another life after they die, and accept Prophet Muhammad as the final messenger from God until the end of time, then they are considered muslims.

    I hope this answers some of your questions.

  95. Besides punishment in the grave, now this: Sex with dead wife within six hours of her death is Halal (Fatwa by Zamzami Abdul Bari, Grand Mufti of Morocco). He goes on to say that marriage remains valid even after death adding that a woman also too had the same right to engage in sex with her dead husband.

    This is sickening, to say the least. Here is yet more delightful evidence that Sharia is benign and completely compatible with our western values, as we are constantly told by many muslims.

    “Egypt’s women urge MPs not to pass early marriage, sex-after-death laws, as reported in Al Arabiya:

  96. @honest abe. I agree with you that it is really disgusting to have sex with a dead person. And No sane muslim I know would do such a thing. But don’t get sidetracked, does lose sight of the main premise of Islam, which is found in my last post directed to big stick. Thanks.

  97. @ayunas, I merely considered that a Moroccan speaking of innovative things of faith being considered speaking for all…
    If one were to follow that logic, certain protestant ministers are authorities for all Christians or at least protestants and blacks should be back in slavery, as an official stance for that faith. Ignoring the massive statements of all other protestant leaders who say otherwise.
    Honestly, this is the same fear that was practiced in the US back during World War II, when Japanese Americans, US citizens, some were multiple generation citizens, were placed in concentration camps (US Government official documents referred to them as such, the terminology was changed after the Nazi concentration camps were liberated), losing all of their properties, to include their homes and family heirlooms. That was, much later, acknowleged by the US government as wrong and ended up costing well over a billion dollars in reparations.
    Fear supports facist beliefs and behavior. It is incumbant for those with rational minds to prevent such things from running unopposed. To apply balance of a 21st century mental filter only to things from the 21st century, remembering that different ages had different practices.

  98. Ayunas:

    You left out non-muslims as well as muslims of different sects. However, your answer is vague and is a fluffy feel good statement.

    So let me be a bit more direct:

    If you wife choice to not were the dresswear but instead a pair of jeans/t-shirt wanted to work full time and your were responsible for helping in childcare as well. Would you deem this to be okay?

    If you wife wanted to go on a trip to visit family by herself would you deem this okay?

    Would you be friends with non-muslims and support non-muslim charities?

    What is your belief on Sharia law and incorporating it into society at large?

    This is just off the top of my head. I am kind of rush today.

  99. Sorry for typos. In a bit of a hurry.

  100. @bigstick1
    Honestly, What I said in the last post is the main premise of Islam. What I explained to you is the bulk of Islam. The religion really is all about recognizing the greatness of Allah, and obeying HIm. There is no fluffiness or frosting on the cake for this statement. And whether people like it or not, that is the CRUX of the religion. Yes, it’s that simple.

    I mentioned that non-muslims are to be treated respectfully by muslims, and dealt with in a very good manner. Whoever does good to you, you should reciprocate. If I have nonmuslim neighbors, I’m very nice to them, and give them food, invite them over, etc. Nonmuslim coworkers, yet go out and eat with them, be good to them. Islam promotes interacting with other faiths and dealing with them with the best of manners.

    It’s very important in Islam to support good causes. I mentioned about oppression. If ANYBODY of any religion is in distress, a MUSLIM should help them. Give them support, money, whatever is needed. Justice and Support needs to be given to HUMANITY, it doesn’t matter if they are muslim or not.

    One of my sisters wears jeans and t-shirts out. I can’t force her to wear the Islamic dress. I would like her to wear it, BUT, as I mentioned EARLIER, there is no forcing/compulsion in religion. Islamically she is required to wear it. That is what the religion says. But again, nobody can FORCE her to wear it. My other sister does wear the islamic dress and she did it willingly.

    I don’t really understand your hypothetical questions and why you’re asking them. It is important to understand the basic premise of Islam, which I keep going back to. If you don’t agree with the BASIC TENETS, then there is no use to go into the details of the religion. If you don’t understand the basic concept of Islamic Monotheism, then there is NO way you will understand some nuanced opinion in the legislation of Islam.

    Basically, I notice sometimes that some questions asked are with the intention of attacking the religion. These types of questions are not worth answering. But sincere questions about the religion I will love to clarify and answer.

  101. Ayunas:

    Few more questions.

    Do you live in the west? Were you born into a muslim family?

    Would like you to expand upon what teachings you follow would that be Wahhabi teaching/tenets, Salafist, etc?

    Would like it if you gave some examples of nuanced opinions in the legislation of Islam as well.

    Thanks 🙂

  102. ayunas, on April 27, 2012 at 6:55 am said:

    The religion really is all about recognizing the greatness of Allah, and obeying HIm. There is no fluffiness or frosting on the cake for this statement. And whether people like it or not, that is the CRUX of the religion. Yes, it’s that simple.

    So what is your point??? Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. would say EXACTLY the same about their respective “religions”.
    As to the rest of the bs …. i.e. no fluffiness or no frosting on the cake …. in your post is what other “religions” EXACTLY lay the claim to fame also.

    That’s why I have always agreed with Great Mao that all “religions” are an opiate for the masses!

  103. Erm, Abe… That was Karl Marx, not Mao. Mao was the one who liked little girls.
    As far as the wisdom of Marx, I far prefer Harpo to Karl. 😉

  104. wzrd1, you are right. I stand corrected!

  105. Religion is based upon ………….FEAR.

    Excerpts from Bertrand Russell

    Religion is based on fear of the unknown, death and defeat. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand and hand. Religion is a concept quite unworthy of free men. A good world need knowledge, kindliness and courage. It does not need regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of free intelligence by words uttered long ago by ignorant men.

    It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence.

  106. Ayunas:

    Here is an article I thought you might find interesting.

  107. …”It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence.”
    Sorry, bigstick, I disagree. It needs a thoughtful, considered and balanced outlook and free intelligence. With only a fearless outlook, one repeats the errors of Love Canal, NY, poisoned air, poisoned oceans, poisoned lakes, invasive species introduction, etc.
    A fearless outlook resulted in Apollo 1, a thoughtful, considered and balanced outlook resulted in the REST of the Apollo program.
    I’ll also disagree that ALL religions are based upon fear. As one of the sparse examples, the Buddhist has no fearful “lessons” to remember. Nor do most jungle tribal religions.
    Indeed, there was an old paper that I can’t recall the name or author of, many, many years ago. It was a comparison of desert based religions vs jungle based religions. Inevitably, the desert based faiths overran the jungle based through expansionism and military efforts (the prime examples provided were christian groups, such as the conquest of South America by Spain.)

  108. Ayunas,

    Thought you might find the following scientific research interesting:

    According to a research study published in the Los Angeles Times today: Only Non-Thinkers Believe In Religion!

    The article goes on to state that “those who think more analytically are less inclined to be religious believers than are those who tend to follow a gut instinct, researchers conclude”. The journal Science conducted the study, which suggests that intuition tends toward religion, but that rational thought tends toward atheism.

  109. Atheists think they have come to the conclusion that there is no god through a process of critical thinking and logical reasoning. They either make the positive intellectually-certainclaim“there is no god” or what many believe to be the more “balanced”, “less radical” position of “I have absolutelynoreasontobelieve in god but cannot rule his existence out altogether”. The problem with atheists is that once theyreachthisposition of god-denial, they think their reasoning is done, and become just as assured of their other positions as the theists they dislike so much, thinking of themselves as “rationalists. The problem with atheists is the same “problem” that plagues the worlds of philosophy and science. They tacitly or openly accept the notion that omniscience is necessary for absolute certainty. Philosophical scepticism permeates their worldview like a disease: we can never be sure of anything; our senses aren’t reliable; certainty is impossible; objectivity is naive; definite statements can’t be made in science; total knowledge is necessary for accurate claims. There is no greater exponent of this scepticism than the postmodern subjectivist with his diabolical multiculturalism. But the scientific community as well as the philosophical one as a rule accept this nihilism as the given.

    As an example, how many times have you heard a theist say “you can’t call yourself an atheist – have you examined every part of the universe to see if god exists??” To which the atheist might respond: “I don’t need toexamine the entire universe;there might be a god, but I see no reason to believe in one – and the burden of proof is on you.” The atheist is right that the burden of proof is on the theist – but he still cannot be 100% sure of his position, and he unwittingly accepts the philosophical scepticism that the theist smuggles into the question. In the same way that philosophical scepticism says that just because the sun rose yesterday doesn’t mean we can be sure it will rise tomorrow, the atheist who “is committed to reason and logic” refuses to rule out the supernatural, god, ghosts, vampires, goblins, elves, chi, astrology entirely – because he still accepts the nonsensical proposition that definite knowledge is impossible; that omniscience is necessary for certainty; that our senses can be fooling us one from minute to the next. So no matter how “rational” the atheist is, he still has to allow a modicum of irrationality in his worldview: that all the things he rejects might actuallyexist. Atheists want religion gone, but offer nothing in its place that even resembles a proper philosophy and worldview.

    The problem with some atheists is that, in their rush to displace religion and espouse all that religion traditionally rejects, they turn their lives into a quest to “make the world a better place”.

  110. “There is no God.” Some atheists categorically state that there is no God, and all atheists, by definition, believe it. And yet, this assertion is logically indefensible. A person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say from his own pool of knowledge that there is no God. Only someone who is capable of being in all places at the same time – with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe – can make this statement.


    Love the comment by Thomas about Sir Isaac Newton. A man of faith as well as being the greqtest scientist of all time.

  112. MrsBawazir, on April 28, 2012 at 3:52 pm said: blah blah blah ….

    The posting feels and sounds like a heavy duty cut/paste job. In legal circles, it is called “intellectual propery theft”. It is only ethical to provide links, sources, etc. More importantly, folks should be able to express their own thoughts, referencing links, authors, articles, etc. when necessary.

    Guess it goes back to “rote” method of learning in madrassas and colleges, etc in the muslim world. Certainly, such non- wisdomical “stuff” doesn’t bring peace in me or anyone else :)-

  113. Mrs. B … there is a big difference between an atheist and one who does not believe in organized (or unorganized) religions. I have never said I’m an atheist or that I don’t believe in a higher power but I definitely do NOT believe in organized religions because what I read think has lead me to that belief.

  114. Abe, the blah, blah bit simply dismisses what was posted and belittles the opinion, rather than refuting it. That reflects ill on you, you can do better than that! Indeed, I guess many students in the US were educated in madrassas, by YOUR candle! Something that fails to meet factual observation and documented cases.

    Wendy, some have difficulty comprehending the agnostic, the deist and the atheist. :/

    MrsB, if someone is trying to improve the world in a positive way, I don’t give a tinkers damn WHAT their beliefs are, IF they ARE improving it in a positive way. As for Newton being the greatest scientis ever, that is a relative view. Personally, he was a giant of his time and for quite a few generations after, but many also contributed as greatly as he. HE has ONE contribution, adding math to physics, beginning the change from physics being a philosophical study to making it a hard science. Of course, Newton was also an alchemist, incessantly trying to make gold from lead.
    As for doubting one’s senses, I seem to recall religions saying that as well. The Buddhist takes it to extremes, the other faiths mention demons and djinn fooling senses. There is something to be said for both sides in their view of not trusting one’s senses totally.
    That all said, I’ve never heard a scientist NOT make firm assertions to known LAWS of physics and chemistry. It’s only when one goes into the more advanced theories when one finds some “wiggling”, as science STILL has yet to complete an accurate grand unified theory. The only way to find that is to advance new theories, test them, test them some more, test them a lot, adjust the theories to fit observations and learn objectively.
    Or we COULD simply dismiss it all and go back to the black plague being caused by God punishing humanity and bad odors causing it…
    I’ll stick with my sciency antibiotics. 😉

  115. Mrs B:

    A man of faith is far different than a man of religion.

    Religion is a doctrine of rules laid out to control the fearful with a deity that has the same weaknesses of man. Judge the god you worship because in my book the God/Allah that is written is not worthy to be worshipped. Allah is a forgetful, slavery inducing, dividing, murdering, hateful, racist, vengeful, sex consumed, tyrannt who lives off of fear and hatred just like your prophet. Yahweh too was a hateful, vengeful, controlling, weak (iron chariots problem), murder, forgetful, racist, slave inducing evil god as well. If they are the same then they are a fearful, vengeful, hateful, spiteful, bigoted, gender apartheid, homophobic, murdering imperfect god. The God you worship is a fairytale made by men to ensure the worst in humanity. The greater men follow the religion the more the true nature of the religion is shown through. These men are full of hate for mankind other than their own, they are fearful of anything beyond their narrow confines of their hate books, they are controlling, domineering who could give a damn less for women or children’s welfare other than to control them and this they call family values.

    Well they can shove their type of family values. For their family values are nothing more than a fascade of slavery (include sexual) and torture.

    “The problem with some atheists is that, in their rush to displace religion and espouse all that religion traditionally rejects, they turn their lives into a quest to “make the world a better place”.”

    Apparently from your lack of addressing problems I listed with your religion and the horrors your fellow muslims are inflicting upon others coupled with this statement means you are fine with acid in faces, legs blown off, etc.

    Obviously you dislike Atheists because they want to make a better world for humanity. Well, let me tell you that I am not sorry to like humanity in whatever form, color or gender. I am proud to live on a world that has so many wonders and fully intent to enjoy all that I am capable of while at the same time trying to give back in a manner that is both respectfully, freeing, and dignified to the world which includes animals.

    Now when you have a belief system for yourself it is one thing but when you and yours act on that belief system that is another. In other words, one can be respected based on it being your belief.

    The other cannot be respected particular when it creats hate, divisionism, gender apartheid, backwardness, etc. It is then when your belief system can know longer be respected as it goes beyond you and now is in the public fray. Now it must be confronted particularly since your belief system is responsible for so much hate and atrocities.

    Last thing you state that atheist want religion gone but offer nothing in return, no system to follow, no rules to run your life by, etc. In this statement I feel sorry for you as your are not an independent free thinker that can determine how to conduct yourself in a manner that is respectful, fullfilling and freeing. Live in your cage if you must or join the rest of humanity that will pass you by in the pursuit of knowledge, compassion, science, and humanities abilities.

    Remember silence to inhumanity and atrocities is a form acceptance.


    Yes, humanity needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. This statement does not exclude your statement of balance, compassion or anything else. You are the one that inserted that exclusion. What the statement did exclude was fear and fear only.

    Provide the article on the comparison, wzrd.

  116. Wizard1,

    Your posts are invariably full of commonsensical wisdom. Whether one agrees or disagrees with them, they always bring peace and joy to one’s mind. Of course, commonsense to an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom ….

  117. bigstick, if I recall the author or title, I’ll happily share it. But, that was an article I read around 20 years ago, so it’ll take some searching.

    Abe, it has been my regrettable experience that common sense is highly uncommon. :/

  118. @bigstick

    I was born and raised in America, and yes, to a Muslim family. Right now, I live in Saudi Arabia, teaching English to Saudis, which is why I visit this americanbedu website.

    As for the teachings I follow, I would say it is MAINSTREAM SUNNI Islam. The majority of muslims share this understanding. That is, we take the religion of Islam from the authentic sources of the Quran and the Prophetic traditions. And our theology is taken from them based on the understanding of the early generations.

    As for salafi/wahhabi I would pose to you the question of what is YOUR understanding of this strand of Islam. Labels mean different things to different people, so if you explain what the label entails, I can tell you whether or not I agree with that. A lot of people who adopt these titles have some ideas that I don’t believe are in line with Islam, based on the sources of the Quran and the Prophetic traditions.

    What I meant by nuanced opinions in the legislation are things that will not make sense to a person who doesn’t understand the Fundamental Islamic Theology of Monotheism. I urge any nonmuslim to focus on this because frankly speaking, this is the MAIN focus of Muslims and what Islam is about.

    An example of a nuanced opinion would be, say the ruling of men growing a beard in Islam, or whether or not muslims are a lot to eat meat slaughtered by jews and christians in the U.S. This types of issues are disputed by Muslim scholars using various evidences. These types of things are completely secondary and don’t mean anything when you compare it to the issue of Islamic Monotheism.

  119. @bigstick

    Regarding your allegations and descriptions about God in Islam,

    These words you say about our Creator hurt me. And you again are attacking Islam.

    Where on earth did you get this idea about our Creator? Again, I am telling you that this is completely opposite to what Muslims believe about Allah. In the Quran – God is Al-Rahman – The Most Merciful. Al-Wadud – The Most Loving Al-Ghafoor – The Most Forgiving. Al-Hakeem – The Most Wise. Al-Hayy-The Eternal. Al-Razzaq – The Sustainer. And many other names. God has the most beautiful names. ولله الأسماء الحسنى. (If you understand Arabic there is the Arabic)

    AGAIN.. I am a Muslim who takes my belief from the Quran and the Prophet Traditions. Please don’t twist around our belief towards God.
    Why on earth would anybody be muslim if you’re false description of God was correct. God is far above and greater than what you have attributed to Him.

  120. @honest abe.

    That may be true from certain religions. But to be honest, Critical Thinking and Reflection are key parts of Islam. In countless verses in the Quran. It encourages humans to THINK, REFLECT, PONDER, over the universe. Logical arguments are given many times in the Quran.

    One simple LOGICAL example addressed to atheists

    أم خلقوا من غير شيء أم هم الخالقون. أم خلقوا السماوات والأرض بل لا يوقنون
    Were they created from NOTHING, or are they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create the skies and the earth? Rather, they have no certainty (in what they claim).

    This is a simple logical question posed to you. Did you create yourself? Or Were you created from NOTHING?

    This is logic.

  121. @ayunas
    I agree with you and I have strong belief in THE HOLY QURAN. NO body has any answer to that but they are stubborn though they know they are created by the CREATER (ALLAH).

  122. Ayunas:

    First that particular statement has been introduced within other religions and other philosophies long before the quran was ever incepted. Therefore to attributed this logical stance from which the Quran has copied from others is a fallacy thus you are stating that one needs to follow a copy cat version of thought as a holy proclamation as being the path to the one………well that is just absurd.

    Here is just the beginning of my problems with the Quran.

  123. Ayunas:

    Here is an excellent argument to you logic stance.

  124. ayunas, on April 28, 2012 at 11:41 pm said: @bigstick Regarding your allegations and descriptions about God in Islam,These words you say about our Creator hurt me. And you again are attacking Islam.

    Ayunas, try to learn the difference between ATTACK and CRITIQUE. I didn’t see any “attack” in MrB’s postings at all. Rather, I saw “critiques”. You your self stated that koran “encourages humans to THINK, REFLECT, PONDER”. That’s all MrB was doing ….

  125. Ayounas, what i wanted to prove was while some individuals here went about insulting others as if their lives depended on iit,the minute i open my mouth about their flaws, they brand me as a hater,so you see, there lies some serious double standards here. I don’t hate atheists bstick,i don’t care enough to hate.i despise for one abe here, he has nothing worthy to contribute to most discussions we hv except to go on a frenzy googling rampage on I Hate Islam and then cole to the discussions with wome idiot Moroccon ‘sheikh’ and eneless liwt of crimes by certain groups yada yada then He’ll switch to his petty method of belittling others opinions because obviously pettiness is one of his ugly trait. Wzre n wendy, i truly hv no problem with any faith or lack of. But i sure abhor attacks and so called ‘critique’ of my religion. I see no problem when one truly iw seeking answers by asking questions but when the table turns and some start hurling insults such as Allah is evil etc, excuse me but this is my God we talking about.if you ill talk or ‘critique’ my mother or daughter, I’ll go beserk so how about you running your mouth about my One True Love which is Allah! As this article states, instead od giving resons in a civil manner, most atheists will turn to insults and self prolaimed rationale

  126. Ayounas, what i wanted to prove was while some individuals here went about insulting others as if their lives depended on iit,the minute i open my mouth about their flaws, they brand me as a hater,so you see, there lies some serious double standards here. I don’t hate atheists bstick,i don’t care enough to hate.i despise for one abe here, he has nothing worthy to contribute to most discussions we hv except to go on a frenzy googling rampage on I Hate Islam and then cole to the discussions with wome idiot Moroccon ‘sheikh’ and eneless liwt of crimes by certain groups yada yada then He’ll switch to his petty method of belittling others opinions because obviously pettiness is one of his ugly trait. Wzre n wendy, i truly hv no problem with any faith or lack of. But i sure abhor attacks and so called ‘critique’ of my religion. I see no problem when one truly iw seeking answers by asking questions but when the table turns and some start hurling insults such as Allah is evil etc, excuse me but this is my God we talking about.if you ill talk or ‘critique’ my mother or daughter, I’ll go beserk so how about you running your mouth about my One True Love which is Allah! As this article states, instead od giving resons in a civil manner, most atheists will turn to insults and self prolaimed rationale

  127. Mrs. B:

    One only has to read the Quran and hadith to see the evil of Allah/God. This is the same as the Bible.

    Here is just a glimpse into God and his love.

  128. No B, not one but billions of people hv read the Qur’an Muslims and non Muslims and they saw Allah as the Most Merciful, the Most Glorious. Its only a VERY tiny percentage of individuals who managed to manipulate the Qur’an and come up with such ludicrous.

  129. Pardon my spelling errors, I’m using my hp.

  130. Okay I have my opinion on this but I am an Atheist and you don’t like my opinion or critique. So let me give you an associates of your Abrahamic faith’s view of why muslims believe the way the do. Then maybe you might want to here my view after reading this jewel.

  131. Mrs. B:

    I read the article you gave. Interesting but useless as it is just a person explaining why they hate atheists. It gave no background in the religion how it was formed, scientific evidence, etc. See that is the problem when going against an atheist we break out archeology, science, historical evidence that contradicts the current texts. You give me I hate you because you broke out all the stuff that makes me look like someone following a bunch of primitive political power hungry goat herders that had no idea that an earthquake wasn’t from God but from tectonic plates shifting. But now if you ask one of your representatives of your faith: I believe in Iran, then it is because women being uncovered caused it. WOW!!

  132. Sweetie,open your eyes. I didn’t appreciate your insult not because you’re an atheist. Didn’t you immediately brand me as an atheist hater when I critique Atheism? I could play tye same game n gv views by friendly-atheists about extreme Athiests so your link proves nada. Inbreeding? What does that hv to do with Islam? Even non Muslims practise it, n although allowed in Islam,cousin marriages,its highly discouraged.

  133. Mrs. B:

    Really inbreeding is discouraged with cousin marriages? Where? Now which insult (by your standard not mine) was it that you didn’t like. I don’t think I immediately branded you as an atheist hater. I do think you tend to lean that way though. I think your stance on being a muslim is extreme and you follow the extremist version.

    What I find interesting about you is that you don’t touch upon the atrocities done to women in the name of your religion. You just keep quite about them which tells me you accept it.

    Let me ask you do you think women are deficient in both religion and intelligence? Do you feel women should be confined to their homes and protected in such a manner? Do you think that women should be segregated from men to include being excluded from the public realm?

    I assure you that seperate will never equate to equal or provide you with rights particular if you are deemed a lesser being.

  134. Mrs. B:

    So what is your point of artificial insemination using donor sperm. Is it to say couples should not use this as a means or are you actually trying to justify known culturally tribal forced inbreeding? Again, how does this redirect change the known custom of forcing or demanding to keep one’s wealth within the family (tribalism) by marriage of cousins which after 50 generations or so has eroded the Arabic genetics considerably?

  135. U said an atheist breaks out science etc to back up their reasoning of the no God rule. Ok right back atcha, based on s ience and your no room f or error approach, hv you truly searched the entire universe to make such a bold statement on God’s existence?or did you just search a bit,got fed up and eureka no God?how cqn u be sure tht in the future, as in everything, GOd will not be discovered?scientist are discovering new things every day.

  136. Mrs. B:

    I cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is no being beyond my understanding, that said there is no evidence that can be used to prove such a being exists.

    However I will say that I can say that your Allah is a facade and that has been proven by archeological digs and the Quran/Hadith themselves. They are absolutely filled with contradiction, hatred, forgetfulness, lies, deceptions and so much more.

    The god in these books are nothing more than a fairytale invented by men in pursuit of power to feed up the fear of people of the unknown and it shows in its corruption throughout the world. It shows in its’ proliferation of hatred, gender apartheid, murder, divisionism, etc.

    Do you not read anything I provide you? I am still waiting on the response of whether you thought Karen King wrote the Reliance of the Traveler. You initially thought this was some sort of internet book put out to harm Islam. Have you researched it at all?

  137. What I find REALLY funny is the inbreeding argument, THIS TIME, against Muslims. Only a generation ago, it was, VERBATIM, against Jews. Indeed, honorable mention was made of one Albert Einstein, who divorced his first wife, so that he could marry his first cousin.
    THAT is well documented (Einstein).

    THEN, artificial insemination is brought up. Interestingly enough, it was in the current news over the past two days, as a Roman Catholic religion teacher was terminated from her position due to her having IVF procedures performed. So, by extension, one brands Jews, Muslims (due to Arab tradition (we’ll not go into tribal relations of those two groups, by tradition)) and Roman Catholics. Or something else nonsensical.
    One person confuses ONE ETHNIC GROUP with an ENTIRE RELIGION!
    BTW, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain and Saudi are ALL working on moving the culture away from inbreeding, due to genetic conditions previously only well documented in European royalty.

    bigstick, your argument against a supreme being fails the philosophical test of physics. The graviton hasn’t been detected and indeed, no carrier has been detected for gravity. Therefore, by your reasoning, gravity does not exist.
    Your proof of weight proving gravity is largely equal to the religious saying REALITY exists due to a supreme being. There are FAR, FAR better arguments than that for atheism.

    Now, to be honest, I DO believe that Mohammad existed, as did Jesus (though his name was rather changed due to triple mis-transliteration). WHAT was said by these people is hotly contested in academic circles, as for BOTH, centuries went by before their words were documented.
    I also remember that Muslim nations preserved culture and learning when Europe was held in the Catholic grip of terror, when entire libraries burned and NOTHING save the bible (ONLY the approved version) was permitted. When herb women were burned at the stake, to preserve the male physician and his bleeding and leeches, over medicinal herbs and isolation of the contagious.
    Today, we have a minor dark age in SOME Islamic nations, but they’re slowly pushing such attempts of abuse of power away.
    In SOME cultures today, religion STILL has a place in prescribing boundaries of behavior. Like it or not, we’re not THAT far from caves and grass huts in development. To say otherwise is to deny the impact of Katrina (of which, my men responded, the horrors spoken on television are pale in comparison to the REALITY of what went on. It’s revisionist history that denies what happened, I saw the evidence photographs and reports).
    You confuse the extremist with the REAL populace, who simply ignore the idiot.
    Indeed, I remember a Joint Chiefs transcript that I read, long ago, which scared the hell out of me. Indeed, it scared our national leadership as badly, for the consensus was literally, “We’ll protect this nation from THEM, even if we have to destroy it to do it!”
    THAT is extremism. The leadership rapidly changed said Joint Chiefs, replacing them with people who had operational brains. No, that will NOT be documented. That meeting, who participated and when are all classified.
    Let’s review US based extremism, the calls for concentration camps for Muslims. Burning of ALL books not the bible, burning of all books of other faiths, “The US is a Christian nation”, “God hates fags”, “Thank God for dead children/soldiers/whoever is dead today”, “White Power!”, “Black power!”, better dead than red, the requirement in some states for trans-vaginal ultrasound before an abortion, blasphemy laws (yes, I’m ashamed to admit that my own state has one still on the books, but recently ruled in federal court as unconstitutional), crosshairs on political opponents, religious structures burned to the ground, people who wear cloth on their heads beaten in the streets (regardless of their ACTUAL faith), veiled threats of violence through firearms by certain political figures (who ignore we liberals who ALSO believe in the second amendment, are armed and highly proficient with firearms), ad absurdium.
    I far prefer the concept of, let he without sin (replace with screw-up, if you wish) cast the first stone.
    Or my humorous paraphrase, He who lives in grass houses should not smoke bones.

    And no, I don’t smoke up. I’m allergic, don’t like the effects and overall find the real world weird enough WITHOUT a mind altering chemical. Save for when I drink the haram, for which, I WILL thank the Muslims for inventing distillation. 😉

  138. Wzrd:

    Let’s hear your arguments for atheism.

    Next, I don’t believe that abraham, mose, jesus or mohammad ever existed. There is a growing segment of scholars that agree with this stance like it or not.

    In addition, there are Jewish sects that breed only within their grouping thus causing genetic abnormalities so this report is not off. The same can be said fo the Amish as well as they have a narrow breeding pool due to their keeping out outsiders. Remember religion has nothing to do with inclusion most often it has to do with exclusion if you opt to think outside their parimeters.

    Why don’t you see what Islam and Christianity has done for Africa over their initial religion. Quite frankly there religion was a far better religion than the Abrahamic religions and served a better purpose. As far as I am concerned Islam and Christian has destroyed Africa.

    Now are you trying to imply that I somehow support the rest of the crap you are going on about?

  139. @honestabe:

    bigstick1 wrote this. I am hesitating to quote it again because of how awful the description is of God.

    “Allah is a forgetful, slavery inducing, dividing, murdering, hateful, racist, vengeful, sex consumed, tyrannt who lives off of fear and hatred just like your prophet. Yahweh too was a hateful, vengeful, controlling, weak (iron chariots problem), murder, forgetful, racist, slave inducing evil god as well. If they are the same then they are a fearful, vengeful, hateful, spiteful, bigoted, gender apartheid, homophobic, murdering imperfect god.”

    This in my book is ATTACK, not a CRITIQUE.

  140. Oh I forgot Jealous.

  141. @bigstick.

    Based on the article, so your problem is believing that the Quran is preserved? Are you sure that’s your problem? Quranic preservation is a long discussion that I would get into with only someone who does not bring preconceived biases and hate in discussion.

    Suffice it to say, that the last statistic I heard, over 9 million muslims have MEMORIZED the Quran cover to cover in Arabic Language. Some of these kids are 5 years old! Many of them do not even speak Arabic. Every muslim on earth has at least memorized a portion of the Quran, though they don’t speak a word of Arabic. I have travelled to India,Pakistan,Abu Dhabi,Saudi Arabia, U.S. and wherever you go, the exact SAME Quran is there. No book has this level of consistency and prestiege.

    My discussion with you is why do you have this awful, terrible concept of God in Islam, when me as a Muslim are telling you based on the TEXTS, this is completely wrong?

    بلبسم الله الرحمن الحيم
    “In the name of Allah, the Completely Merciful, the Most Compassionate”

    This is at the beginning of every chapter of the Quran except one. So what are you missing here?

  142. bigstick, YOU provided, repeatedly, the arguments for atheism. Remember, *I* am a deist. 🙂
    I was simply mentioning YOUR quotations, which are quite voluminous in this post’s responses.

    As for Mohammed, Jesus and Abraham, I actually DO consider them real persons. However, what is ascribed to them is quite probably, within at least 3 sigma, far beyond what was said (oldest to the newest, with lower sigma for each with newer era).
    Or more simply, verbal history sucks, as we ALL know. Written history is also flawed, as it tends to get revised nearly as much as verbal history (we’ll not go into current US political revisionist recent history, where white is black or something).
    The extance of a person does not require belief in the story, only the root of the story that was embellished by current beliefs.
    After all, one only consider Gilgamesh and the flood, then the Christian bible to find the flaw. Now, did Noah exist? Or did Gilgamesh exist?
    I’d vote Gilgamesh and the mentioned survivor of a flood myth, who was also a bit “larger than life” in the telling…Indeed, I’d go for those events being at the end of the ice age, when ice dams failed and flooded large tracts of land, which was expanded over the centuries…

  143. ayunas, I’ll side with bigstick here, as your argument is fallacious.
    YOU consider *TODAY*, with 8 million of WHAT IS WRITTEN TODAY.
    Now, kindly tell us all HOW MANY RECALLED 100% 6 centuries ago?
    5 centuries ago?
    BEFORE it was written, what was potentially misconstrued, which ALSO was warned of in the Quran and the Torah and quite a few other religious works. AFTER it is written is the warning recorded, but no misunderstandings, no viewpoints of the speaker, etc.
    The Quran being the literal word of the creator is equally as valid as the Roman Catholic or Protestant bible.
    Of note is what COMMON GOOD concepts were present, what potentially abused concepts are present and what overall historic behavior has been present.
    In THOSE points, there ain’t no saints, but plenty of sinners!

    Now, ask oneself, with different cultures, hence, different contexts to consider what is said, is it potentially possible that ALL were given *REALLY GOOD IDEAS TO PRACTICE*, but most or all were abused to near extinction?
    Or should we start the religious thermonuclear war tomorrow, after seeing all sides are equally armed, hence proving humanity is NOT worthy of a bow, nod or even notice?

  144. Ayunas:

    You really need to go back in time on the Quran and study it’s history more.

    It is getting to late for me and I need to recharge I will provide some excellent sources from your hadith and Quran that back up my statements a little later.

  145. U mean some excellent misquoting and taking versus out of context to backup your lies. Ok I’m ready .

  146. Wzrd1,

    I have been following your postings here for sometime now. Let me tell ya: you are very fair and very balanced in your analysis. Sometimes your wisdom brings peace to my mind. Other times pure anger:)-

    But then again that’s the true mark of a fair and balanced poster and what separates you from many of the rest of the chaffe. You find commonalities across “religions” and “cultures” and build upon them rather than attacking on differences. I wish many of us here (including myself) were like that. But then again, we are all “different” and with “varying” pov’s. Otherwise life will be extremely boring.

    I thank the Sky Sugardaddy every day that we don’t have to be sharia-compliant on this blog!

  147. Mr Petty is back,again bringing nothing worthwhile to the discussion.such spitefulness could only come from a lack of faith.

  148. I thank Allah for making most of us not some spiteful old goat.

  149. People never do evil or make evil comments so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it for religious convictions:)-

  150. ayunas, the quran is maybe the same now, (although Saudi Qurans usually have a lot of bidah inserted) but that was not always the case, the ”Quran” has been revised and edited many times. As is only to be expected.
    Even when Mohamed was still alive there were supposed to be at least 7 versions, and when somebody asked mohammed which one was the true one he answered, ”All of them”.
    So there must have been a lot lost since there is only one now.

  151. In my own view, I don’t see religion or faith based on fear but on love. I also consider myself as one who is able to think too! (smile) There are going to be those who either do not believe or those who believe that only their chosen faith is the true one. It’s best to simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  152. Mrs. B and Ayunas:

    I am taking it that AB would rather we not get into the failings of Allah so I will not put anything up on this post regarding Allah’s failings.

  153. @aafke art. There are two ways two study Islam. 1.From an Orientalist/Non-Muslim Perspective which tends to be biased because they don’t believe in the religion. 2. From an Believer’s perspective, maintaining an academic study of the religion for academic knowledge and personal development.

    Your discussion about the preservation of the Quran is a long one that I don’t have time to get into. But. your point about 7 versions? Yes, The Prophet Muhammad asked God to REVEAL 7 dialectically different Qurans so he could have something catered for the different tribes around his area. God revealed them at the TIME of the Prophet. During Uthman’s time, that is when he realized that all the converts coming into Islam do not need to be confused by the different dialectical versions of the same book, since they don’t even know arabic anyways. So Uthman with consultation decided to get rid of all the dialectical versions except for the Qureshi Dialect, that of the Prophet Muhammad himself صلى الله عليه و سلم. So the one that you see today is that same ONE. All over the world. No bidah, I speak from experience traveling all over the world seeing the exact same one, And no book has this level of preservation like I mentioned earlier.

    Thanks. All I ask people here to do is to be sincere, and not let your hatred, arrogance, or any negative emotions affect you from looking at things objectively. Thanks again.

  154. @bigstick1 –

    it’s clear that you prefer to insult and attack Islam, and attack God by insulting Him. Even though you have done all this, I will not insult you.

    Why do you insult God if you don’t even believe in Him? To you He does not exist? So in your mind, what is there to insult?

    And again, I humbly correct you by saying, سبحان الله – Allah is FREE from ANY FAULTS or IMPERFECTIONS. So to say Allah has failings is a COMPLETE LIE and FORGERY against God according to the teachings of Islam. MAYBE according to YOUR experience of RELIGION, that is what you feel, but please don’t attribute that to other religions that you have not been a part of.

    I have been studying Islamic theology academically for quite some time now, and you have not understood it properly unfortunately. I hope one day you may be able to let go of your negative emotions and hatred to stop letting it cloud your objective judgement.

  155. Why do you insult God if you don’t even believe in him?

    Ayounas, that’s a good question. I strongly believe his sole purpose was to insult the believers and not so much of intellectual enlightening. As a few others here too with their underhand remarks.

  156. Ayunas- so would you also say that when a Muslim studies Christianity they are biased because they don’t believe in the divinity of Christ, and when Christians study Christianity they are practicing the “Believer’s perspective, maintaining an academic study of the religion for academic knowledge and personal development.” ? Because logically it would seem that is what you must believe. And that would apply for every group of believers- and even non-believers- “studying” their own faith.

    I just don’t think that is at all a way to decide who is being unbiased or more academic.

  157. @sandy – Good counter points. I made the point to emphasize that far too many people have not objectively tried to understand the Religion of Islam. They are basing their judgements on preconceived notions, or what orientalists are writing AGAINST islam. There are many orientalists that study islam with an ill will and sole purpose of Negative Criticism and exploitation, not an objective look at the religion. but don’t get me wrong, there are nonmuslims who do objectively study islam and have critiqued it objectively as well.

    I believe we can study different faiths academically and objectively, but the question is, do most people do? The answer I believe is no.

  158. @sandy so in better words, I guess I could say,

    there are two ways to study Islam,
    1. from an unbiased, academic, objective perspective
    2. from a biased, ill-willed, perspective of trying to purposely find faults in the religion.

    both ways are prevalent today. I hope that clarifies what I meant

  159. Ayunas, they found very early qurans walled up in an ancient mosque in Yemen, they have differences with modern qurans, there are pages which had been wiped and rewritten. The way the quran is composed, the longest Surat first instead of for example a choronological order shows that later on, when scholars, from Persia had more influence, because that is a typical Persian manner of order. So there was a rearrangement of suras.
    The many badly written and un-intelligible passages of the Quran show that the guys who put it into Arabic didn’t know some of the foreign words used in the earliest qurans and they didn’t know Syro Aramaic very well.
    And these mistakes happen wit all books. For example, when the bible claims that Mary was a virgin they made a mistake, the earliest bibles were written in Greek and in Greek it says the was a ”young maiden”, which was mistakenly translated as ”Virgin”. Hence the Christian myth that Mary was pregnant while being a virgin.
    A mistake btw, which was taken over by mohammed when he copied, or had other people copy, large parts of the bible into the Quran.

    Just be realistic, all books change over time.

    About your comment on being unbiased and rational versus biased and irrational, you really should put more trust in people who study subjects with a clear open mind than those who are blind and refuse to look further than their ideology allows.
    You would not be commenting here, using a computer and the internet if rational people had not invented these things for you.

    In simple terms, you can either be honest and pure, and use the scientific method, or be narrow minded, blinded and biased and you will get nowhere.

    The scientific method is like this: ”here are the facts, now what conclusion can we draw from them”
    The ”religious” method is like this: ”here is the conclusion we ”believe” in, now how can we twist the facts to make them support our belief”

    And it is this twisted way of thinking which makes people from all different religions so happy because the ”facts” show that they and their religion are the only true ones.
    Have you ever thought about that? There are billions of people on the planet who believe something else as you do, and are just as convinced that they have the only true faith and you are a heathen, pagan, atheist, etc. for believing something else.

    And you, Ayunas, are probably a Muslim because your parents were Muslim, and if you had been born from Hindu parents you would have been Hindu. And if you were born in Europe you might have been Christian, or if your parents had allowed you to grow up and think for yourself you would have decided that religions are made up, that there is no proof of Gods, and that the magic books written by people over the ages are immoral and cause a lot of evil and you would have been an atheist.

  160. Well said, Aafke-Art! Simply brilliant ….

  161. @aafke art

    The scientific method – use facts to come to a conclusion. I agree

    The religious method – use beliefs to twist facts to support the belief. I disagree with this if this is a method that is used in religions. It certainly is not the method in Islam.

    If you twist facts, then it’s no longer a fact.

    The crux of the matter is, science provides us with one type of knowledge. which is very important. Science explains OBSERVED phenomenon. But what about that what cannot be seen? Science cannot explain EVERYTHING about reality.

    Example: We can make observations about outer space. Scientists say the universe is infinite. But what is the evidence for that? How can that be tested? The truth is only a theory at best, and there isn’t a way of knowing for fact unless someone can travel “to infinity”

    That is why Islam says there is ANOTHER source of knowledge, which is revelation from God, a source of knowledge that tells us things that cannot be discovered or known by us using mere science.

    In our “outer space example” – Divine Knowledge tells us that there are 7 universes/skies. All the stars / suns / planets accounted for by scientists are all a part of the LOWEST sky. There still are 6 more skies above this sky. Each successive sky is EXPONENTIALLY larger than the preceding sky. And on top of the 7th sky, is a large body of water that is exponentially larger than the 7th sky.

    So two sources of knowledge in Islam:
    1. Science/Experimentation/Observational/Empirical Knowledge
    2. Divine Knowledge

    No contradiction between the two.

  162. Dark matter.
    Yes, dark matter. A hypothetical thing that doesn’t interact with real matter, save through gravity.
    It was theorized by twisting the facts around theory, as nothing could explain HOW galaxies were held together AND account for orbital velocities of stars in said galaxies.
    Dark matter is essentially a matter of faith, as it cannot be observed or even properly described, save that it has gravitational attraction to matter. The EFFECTS of dark matter CAN be observed and indeed, HAVE been observed. Even IF there is no definition of what it is.
    Some say that the Higgs boson is dark matter. That is then believed to just float around in vast clouds, not doing much save gravitationally attracting matter.
    Some say it’s regular matter, but somehow it’s unobservable.
    Some say that there is no such thing as dark matter, but that our understanding of the universe is still flawed.

    Interestingly enough, one can word that all in religious terms and still come out the same way in the end.

    In another case, it was said that it rained for 45 days and nights, causing massive flooding, loss of life and property.
    One could think of one of the many flood myths, however this isn’t one of them. It was the Great Flood.
    Of 1862. 😉
    A flood of near biblical proportions, only lacking stories of a vengeful deity.
    In some ways, it all depends on the telling. In others, it depends on attribution of the cause. Indeed, many at the time thought some deity was angry with them or something.
    At the time, that was the only way people COULD comprehend what was happening.
    Now, we know of polar lows, jet streams, el nino, la nina and much more.
    And we STILL don’t understand all of it. Indeed, one has a new faith, the faith of probability, which really doesn’t EXPLAIN WHY, it only shows that more often than not, under certain conditions, a certain thing will happen.

    Now, go to a physicist or astronomer and deride their sky fairy poop that is invisible, but has gravity, you’ll get a hell of a fight.
    Go to a meteorologist and deride probability forecasting, you’ll get a hell of a fight.
    Go to a religious person and deride THEIR religious theories, you’ll get a hell of a fight.
    Go to an atheist and deride their lack of faith in any deity, you’ll get a hell of a fight.
    When I get up in the morning, I get a hell of a fight from gravity. :/
    Does the fighting solve anything or resolve anything? Only my morning battle against gravity does. 😉
    So, to make sense of it all, one only need back my effort. The effort to have congress repeal the law of gravity, it is an oppressive law!
    Or even more simply, recognize that arguing over religion, the lack thereof, the existence of dark matter or the repeal of gravity is a fruitless exercise, as you’ll convince no believer of your view by argument. The effort typically ends with equal success in congress outlawing gravity. None.

  163. Rosemary C, Thank you 🙂


    “In our “outer space example” – Divine Knowledge tells us that there
    are 7 universes/skies. All the stars / suns / planets accounted for by
    scientists are all a part of the LOWEST sky.”

    The same source also tells you that the stars are part of the ”Heavenly Missile Defense System”, where they are used as projectiles to drive away the devils from eavesdropping on the goodly council.

    Have you thought that may be what you call divine knowledge is just made up stuff by primitive people?
    There are no 7 skies. the ”sky” is not a physical ”thing”, it may have been for these primitive people but by now we know a lot more: we are on a planet in space, our planet has an atmosphere, but not a ”sky” like a physical cover. There are no seven heavens.

    It does not sound divine but it does sound like misinformation, made up stuff to explain what they did not understand, rather than knowledge.

  164. Hi Ayunas,

    Hey could you cite references (from koran and/or hadith and/or reputable science journals) about “And on top of the 7th sky, is a large body of water that is exponentially larger than the 7th sky”. Please don’t cite any fatvas from the fatva factories.


  165. @aafke-art

    your argument about has been repeated and is mentioned in the Quran:

    “When Our signs & verses are recited to them, they (disbelievers) say, “these are old fables of the primitive people” -Quran.

    so you’re denying the fact that there is a sky? call it atmosphere whatever you want. the name is not important.

    Can you disprove there are 7 skies? Has science disproven it? Can science prove it?

    my point again, science explains OBSERVABLE phenomenon.

    Science cannot explain UNOBSERVABLE phenomenon.

    In other words, Science can explain HOW. but it usually cannot explain why. Islam fills in the gaps a lot about WHY.

    I can ask you questions that science cannot answer.

    Let’s start off with a basic one. Why are you here? What is the purpose of your existence?

  166. و عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه – قال – بين السماء الدنيا والتي تليها خمسمائة عام ، و بين كل سماء خمسمائة عام و بين السماء السابعة و الكرسي خمسمائة عام و بين الكرسي و الماء خمسمائة عام و العرش فوق الماء ….. أخرجه ابن مهدي

    On the authority of ibn Mas’ud, said, “between the lowest heaven and the one above it is 500 years, and between every heaven is 500 years, and between the seventh heaven and the footstool is 500 years , and between the footstool and water is 500 years, and the throne is above the water. Bin Mahdi reported this hadith.

  167. ayunas:

    Here are your two ways of studying Islam:

    there are two ways to study Islam,
    1. from an unbiased, academic, objective perspective
    2. from a biased, ill-willed, perspective of trying to purposely find faults in the religion.

    There are actually three ways:

    3. from a biased, delusional, fairytale believing perspective that disregards all unbiased, academic, objective persepectives which state it is a historical document nothing more.

    By the way how do dinosaurs fit into your whole realm of make believe?

  168. wzrd1:

    Belief systems and opinions have a far easier time in changing with new discovers, an open mind, and the ability to understand when someone is feeding you bull shit. However, one cannot change if not exposed to different opinions, known history or in the case of the Quran the lack of it as it is a myth. (No orginal, many versions, various version, different meanings, etc)

    So you can influence a perspective based upon knowledge just as you can influence the amount of gravities affect upn the body by exercise (unless it is forbidden as it is in Saudi for women – think saggy).

    However, you argument is flawed. The fact is that a human’s opinion and belief system can be easily change by an individual choosing to do so. However gravities pull is beyond a human’s current ability to change.

  169. Ayunas,

    Thanks for the info. Couple of questions come to mind, if you don’t mind:

    If the facts about “And on top of the 7th sky, is a large body of water that is exponentially larger than the 7th sky”, were revealed to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh and his wives and his companions), then how come it didn’t make it into the koran as a “scientific miracle” in the form of a verse. Or did Allah Taala or Prophet (pbuh) or one of his scribes somehow forgot to do so.

    And regarding “between the lowest heaven and the one above it is 500 years, and between every heaven is 500 years, and between the seventh heaven and the footstool is 500 years , and between the footstool and water is 500 years, and the throne is above the water”, these are very “precise” measurements. I am genuinely impressed. Was Prophet (pbuh) a trained astronomer or a physicist or a scientist. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand he was unlettered.

    Thanks again!

  170. bigstick, I WISH we could alter gravity. Every morning. Knees are shot, back is shot. Herniated disc in the back, osteoarthritis in the knees. :/
    However, for the 7 sky story, I seem to recall some quantum mechanical theories about multiple dimensions to explain some of the lack in grand unification.
    Of course, that is merely throwing gasoline onto a raging fire… 😉

    BTW, the 7 skies is older than the Quran, it is actually Jewish pseudogripha (I THINK it was in “The secrets of Enoch”).

  171. wzrd1:

    Yes it is wikipedia but the references are correct.

    There is a documentary on the who of time, space and dimension that I will try to find and provide you. Interesting stuff.

    The Higgs Boson effect that they have been trying to simulate has been coming into some interesting dynamics lately have you been following it?

  172. bigstick, yep. Been tracking it, still waiting for 6 sigma results and the final paper.
    Then, theory will, once again, be mildly altered to fit observed and measured facts.
    Who knows? We might end up with a grand unified theory in our lifetimes.

  173. @honest abe.

    thanks for being respectful in talking.

    The two primary sources of revelation are taken from Quran and Hadith Literature. Not only the Quran. Because Muslims believe that the Messenger (pbuh) spoke from what was revealed to him. The authentic hadith establishes things that are not found in the Quran.

    Muslims believe that God is Perfect, and He doesn’t have the attribute of “forgetfulness.” We believe that God revealed everything to the Prophet that was to be the Quran we see today.

    You’re right that the Prophet was unlettered, wasn’t able to read. He did not have knowledge of astronomy/physics. And he was never known to lie. He was known as “الصادق” The truthful one, amongst his people before Islam came.

  174. Ayunas, I believe that hadith is more “the way” of your prophet, in short, what he said and did in the presence of companions, who later reported them “for record”.

  175. Ayunas

    You say: “I as a muslim want only the best thing for people. A muslim is supposed to believe that Mankind is the most honorable creation. All people deserve respect as a fellow human being.” and “-There is no compulsion in religion, nobody can be forced to believe something, even Islam.”

    Pure BS. First of all I doubt that you have read the Quran. You use the same clinches that all Muslims use without regard to quranic texts or basic current events.

    Please take note:
    1. You have no verse for the first affirmation except maybe one verse (don’t criticize other gods so they dont criticize Allah) but even so the Quran ignores this and is full of vile remarks about Jews and Christians and their faiths. So much for respect. Note also that Allah considers non-Muslims to be “lower than animals” but Muslims are the best of peoples”. Read Surah 9 and try to reconcile your words with the reality of your sacred texts.
    2. As for “no compulsion” ha ha ha. So one little verse that a. is ignored everywhere and b. usually considered abrogated, is your moral drug to excuse the hate and discrimination practiced by Muslims everywhere they dominate! Rather than quote it to us, why don’t you go down to the mosques and tell your friends?The fact is that Muslims say one thing and do another.

    Or do you think the apostasy and blasphemy laws are the work of Bugs Bunny?

    Then there is your evil prophet and the hundreds of stories about his wars on his peaceful neighbors.

    Do you have children, Ayunas? Can you look them in the face knowing that your dear prophet attacked peaceful villages, killing and plundering, enslaving men women and children, and even raping captives? Or are the words in your own traditions too painful for you to contemplate?

    If nothing else, Islam proves that mankind is the most vile species on the planet, unable to understand basic concepts of morality or apply simple logic to clear and simple facts.

  176. I don’t want to deal with people who hate and attack. it’s a waste of time.

    You are telling me what My religion says? I academically study Islam, and I practice it. I read the Quran every day, I have memorized close to 2/3 of the Quran to memory. The question is, have you read it in Arabic? Or do you even understand arabic?

    mankind is the most honorable creation:
    ولقد كرمنا بني آدم
    “And we have most definitely HONORED the offspring of Adam.” -Quran

    لا إكراه في الدين
    There is NO compulsion in Religion. Chapter 2 – Quran.
    This verse is NOT abrogated.

    Please do not tell me what Muslims believe. I am a muslim who studies the religion, and I don’t need you to tell me what my own beliefs are. What I told you is how I practice my religion based on Quran and Hadith tradition.

  177. kactuz, let’s review some of your “findings”.
    1: To Muslims, Allah is the very same God as for Jews or Christians. Period. So, your statement is misleading and disingenious in the extreme, as it implies a different god for each faith or at least for Islam and not for Jews and Christians. It also ignores some bad faith issues with Jews in Medina.
    As for the rest, that is pretty much equal in other faiths, in particular, Judiasm and Christianity. Indeed, there was great debate in Boston about permitting Jews to vote over some similar grounds. Learn your history!
    2: OK, you said an absolute. One that ignores Egypt and its Christian churches, Indonesia, with ITS Christian churches and Qatar, who SPONSORED AND BUILT a handful of Christian churhces! For an absolute, it has a HELL of a lot of exceptions at the outset. I could continue further for exceptions to the point where your meaningless comment is below meaningless.
    As for hypocrisy, go no further than your own doorstep before accusing others, lest YOU be called, with truth, a hypocrite.
    Or should I remind you of conservative comments of “The US is a Christian nation”, “ban all mosques”, “Islam should be banned as a terrorist organization”, “put all Muslims in camps” and more, ALL said in mainstream US media outlets by groups here? I guess that the US is a Christian nation that forces all to be Christians, lest they be sent to concentration camps, right?
    Obviously not! Had that begun to happen, *I* would have taken up arms from the scofflaw group who hijacked our nation. I’ll give you a hint, “they” wouldn’t want it nor like it. The US government spent a LOT of money making sure I could do certain things to governments unfriendly to us…
    Interestingly enough, Pennsylvania still currently has a blasphemy law on the books, I guess Pennsylvania is a militant Christian state, right? Look it up, it is true. Unconstitutional, but true.

    Do you have children, kactuz? Can you look them in the face knowing that your dear government attacked peaceful villages, killing and plundering, imprisoning without charge on a permanent basis, raping women? That ALSO has been an embarrassing thing some US troops did. I guess ALL US military, hence, ALL US citizens do, right?
    You pinpoint, pick and choose wrongs, just as others do that caused this fucking war.
    Frankly, the ONLY thing words like yours do is perpetuate violence. And indeed, if it were my will to guide this planet, you and those like you, regardless of faith, creed or nation, would be considered a clear and present danger to the safety, security and interests of this planet. Then, dealt with accordingly.
    Regrettably, my wishes are not considered and violence ensues and continues. Intolerance rules in some areas, perpetuating further violence.
    I WILL admit to intolerance. Intolerance of intolerance.
    And of willful idiocy.

  178. Amin ya Rab to wzrd last comment. 🙂

  179. 🙂 I appreciate some of your words Wzrd1. Thanks

  180. @Wzrd1

    Mashallah & Jazakallah :)-

  181. Wzrd1:

    The US is NOT a Christian nation. The US is a secular nation. The reason for this is that their were over 400 different off-shoots of religion during the revolutary period and they hated each other. Typical.

    Next most of the writers of the constitution were deist, rationalist or atheist.

    This is why there is no mention of GOD in the constitution.

    Check out what some of the founding fathers thought of Christianity. NOT flattering I assure you.

    Christians today are trying to make it a Christian nation such as inserting the “under god” in the pledge in 1954 or putting “In God we trust” on money again in the 1950’s.

    Think McCarthyism and then think Christianity. They went hand in hand during that period and spun off an ugly Christian Dominionism that we are still have to deal with today.

  182. I have to agree with Jay Kactuz here. Islam is what muslims do. Regardless of what is in the “peaceful” koran and “peaceful” hadith.To be fair, the same can be said of “other” faiths and belief systems.

    It’s a shame, but given Islam’s violent history and the unfavorable contrast of its oppressive practices against 21st century values, Muslims are hard-pressed to repackage their faith in the modern age. Some of its leading apologists have come to rely on tricks involving semantics and half-truths that are, in turn, repeated by novices and even those outside the faith.

    Here are a few of the many examples:

    “If Islam were a violent religion, then all Muslims would be violent.”

    “Other religions kill, too.”

    Muhammad preached ‘no compulsion in religion’ (Qur’an: 2:256)

    The Crusades

    “Muhammad never killed anyone.”

    The Qur’an Teaches that all Life is Sacred (Qur’an 5:32)

    “Muslims only kill in self-defense.”

    The million dollar wager that “Holy War” isn’t in the Qur’an.

    “Verses of violence are taken out of context.”

    “Islam must be true, because it is the world’s fastest growing religion.”

    “The Qur’an can only be understood in Arabic.”

  183. Abe, I can only make one singular observation, Islam has one billion followers. If the followers were spurred to violence by their faith, as you seem to believe, there would be quite a few nations that would be dead and buried.

    bigstick, I recall those writings well. I also recall that many, many of the framers of the constitution were freemasons, one REQUIREMENT for membership is the belief in a singular, supreme god. One cannot be an atheist and be a freemason, due to that requirement.
    That said, others had some freethinking going on, some also criticized Christianity over the violence practiced throughout its dominant period in the rule of Europe.
    As for the McCarthy era, that was a shameful period of American history, to put it mildly. I DO find it interesting how some in this nation seem to attempt to revive it in other matters, to include the “threat of Islam”. I’ve even heard tea party types speak of camps to intern American Muslims, apparently finding no amendment or right that they truly like and forgetting the reparations paid to the Japanese Americans for their wrongful incarceration during WWII.

  184. bigstick, I know my history QUITE well. I also recognize some revisionist history in the link you kindly provided.
    Yes, there were some who sought to move onward from the primary requirement of one god that is supreme.
    But, there were those who were crypto-agnostic/atheist/deist.
    Indeed, Jefferson first sought the first amendment, which was seconded by others of non-freemason views and expanded by a number of amendments.
    Jefferson first considered freemasonry, but moved further afield from the current (at the time) mindset.
    Interestingly enough, some criticize Jefferson for his lack of freeing his slaves, not bothering to notice he was essentially insolvent at the time of consideration. He HAD to retain his slaves, lest he be without property AND without funds, as his mansion broke his bank. Silly status symbols…
    I’ve also looked personally upon bricks made by the Washington brickworks, as in George Washington. They were “imported” to Pennsylvania during and shortly after the colonial period. Said buildings STILL stand, with much work retaining their masonry.
    Remember, I DO live quite near Philadelphia. I was a teen during the ’76 events, so I also learned all of the “gossip” from the time, as one who sought to learn and explore. Even WHEN I was suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning from my uncle’s station wagon during the 1976 events. The suckage part was and remains overlooked at the HISTORY part that was learned and since, built upon (SOME things were “unbuilt”, others, reinforced).
    I’ve READ personal journals and diaries of those from that time who penned or signed both the declaration of independence AND the constitution. Of note, the declaration is legally worthless, only the constitution is legally binding. Perhaps in another century that declaration will be worthy for the courts to decide. Equally likely, it’ll be redacted from history…
    We both know that neither of us are dullards. I simply suggest that your course, while worthy, is ill considered in its path.
    For, it IS true, one CAN attract more flies with honey, one can also attract them with something far less wholesome.
    I do the honey, but provide a launching point onward, for those willing to consider said path.
    YOU provide the fertilizer path, which is objectionable to anyone owning an operational nose (to be honest, I have essentially no sense of smell). When approaching someone of a differing view, I highly suggest considering transactional analysis. It works QUITE well!
    But then, I naturally THINK in algorithms. I build upon THOSE with karnaugh maps. Never the pen meeting a page.

  185. Wzrd:

    Ever the philosopher (good thing you don’t have a sense of smell). As that was getting deep.

    However you are giving me some insight to some of your problems; apparently you suffered from some lack of oxygen in your developmental years which explains a lot. Next you have deemed gossip to be relevant historical facts. I guess we can call it the hadith of George Washington.


  186. Interesting opinion, bigstick. Of greater interest is, I was continually A&O X3, so any hypoxia most certainly could not result in loss of brain function. Indeed, I declined joining MENSA in 1978, after fully qualifying for membership.
    I also know about freemasonry, both of today and back then, to include requirements for membership.
    So, your point seems to be that the freemasons who framed the US constitution were actually deists and atheists, while still retaining membership in an organization that has an absolute requirement for belief in a deity (though a deist would qualify today, at that point in history, they’d not have qualified).
    The article you provided was interesting. Especially as it contradicted itself at the end by adding fully 7 known freemasons and ignores the hell out of George Washington’s mason’s apron, which is on display in Philadelphia. For being inactive, he most certainly had a great deal of accomplishments garnishing that apron! AND he wore it during his inauguration, which was written about at that time. An inactive freemason would most certainly not wear such a symbol at such an auspicious time!
    The article is largely correct regarding freemasonry symbols and Illuminati (the latter of which didn’t actually exist as an organized group, at least not since Newton’s time), just another ancient conspiracy theory.
    One interesting part of Philadelphia history is that city hall was donated to the city, after its construction, by freemasons. Very little in its construction is imbued with symbols of freemasonry either, save for the most wild eyed interpretations of conspiracy theorists. That is well documented by the city itself.

    Meanwhile, it is interesting how many religious riots we’ve had in the US, complete with pogroms against a particular Christian sect. The US Army was even called in to suppress the violence on several occasions. For being a secular nation, we most certainly have a lousy track record! For a nation that claims tolerance, the record shows the US to be highly intolerant.
    Even today, we no longer get debate, but instead devolve to denouncement and demeaning comments. A great fall from the times of great oration being valued.

  187. I have a friend who is a Freemason and a Baptist. 🙂

  188. Wzrd:

    There is no conclusive evidence that George Washington ever was a Freemason. I also never made such statements as free masons were atheists or deists. That again is your statement I provided you an article to refute the high number of free mason contributions that you seem to want to add to the crafting of the Constitution.

    Now on a lighter note. I was ribbing you. The whole larry, curly, moe ribbing. Maybe I need (haha) beside it but a least I put a smily face. 🙂

  189. bigstick, there is ample evidence that George Washington was a freemason. He DID attend his first inauguration wearing his freemason apron, which is on display in Philadelphia.

    As for ribbing, I prefer adult conversation. :P:p:P:p:P:p:P:p

  190. Wzrd1:

    We shall agree to disagree on this point. How adult of you to give me raspberries 🙄


  191. Re: George Washington & Masonry

    Sorry MrB but I have to tip my masonic hat to brother wizrd1 on this one:)- GW did EXIST and he was a freemason, absolutely positively.

    In order to be mason, one has to believe in a deity … whether one calls it allah or god or g_d or bagwan or skydaddy. As a past masonic grandmaster, I have personally known muslims, christians, jews, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, etc who are masons. Here is a brief blurb about GW from amongst his myriad of biographies:

    Washington was initiated into Freemasonry in 1752. Washington had a high regard for the Masonic Order and often praised it, but he seldom attended lodge meetings. He was attracted by the movement’s dedication to the Enlightenment principles of rationality, reason and fraternalism: the American lodges did not share the anti-clerical perspective that made the European lodges so controversial. In 1777, a convention of Virginia lodges recommended Washington to be the Grand Master of the newly established Grand Lodge of Virginia; however, Washington declined, due to his necessity to lead the Continental Army at a critical stage, and because he had never been installed as Master or Warden of a lodge, he did not consider it Masonically legal to serve as Grand Master. In 1788, Washington, with his personal consent, was named Master in the Virginia charter of Alexandria Lodge No. 22.

  192. Abe:

    Given the large number of forgeries on George Washington it can not be definitively stated that he was every a freemason. The only thing I wil say is that it is uncertain but if he was one he would have been one that knew little of the movement.

    Here is an interesting article:

  193. @ayunas
    I agree what you have said. But these non-believers are incorrigibal.
    Take it easy.

  194. Abe, please do not address me with the honorific of “brother”, as I have not earned it in this context and respect every mason I’ve known too much to permit the error to go uncorrected.
    I’ve conducted extensive research into freemasonry. I’m also one that is known to acquire the confidence of others, hence additional information is given freely. I also correct those who may be near to breaching a trust, in things not within the realm of national security, but in personal or fraternal trust.
    Though, I DO have to admit that one former lodge master DID relate that the vast majority of freemason “secrets” are all in the public domain. My own research showed it was mostly ceremonial things and fraternal recognition things that remain “secret”, but interestingly enough, largely unhidden, only obscure.
    When I have time to devote myself toward mastery, I’ll request entry into said fraternity. For, in truth, I’ve NEVER had a freemason lie or cheat me. That said, I HAVE watched a freemason permit a person to continue with their own self-delusion, when it caused no greater harm and the correction may have caused conflict.
    Or more simply put, they let a person lie to themselves about an issue, rather than correct them and have a massive dispute in the end, due to an already made up mind.

  195. bigstick, by your reasoning, we should shred the Declaration of Independence. It has been largely regarded as forged. Hence, it’s non-binding, hence we’re still a colony, right?
    One can say the same of the constitution, based upon signature analysis. Should we abandon IT?
    In short, your argument goes circular, based upon OUR argument. Should we continue the grand unified circular argument?
    Ignoring HISTORIC artifacts? If so, we can empty out the Smithsonian, starting with the Apollo program exhibits, moving on to the Darwinian exhibits, to the constitutional exhibits, ad absurdium.
    The mention goes back to before the declaration. The apron goes back to at LEAST the inauguration.
    Or we revise history, as the Romans did. Look at how well it worked out for THEM!
    Or ever Caesar was a son of God, including the well married ones from different families…

  196. I agree to disagree on the matter.

  197. I have quickly glanced over the comments so please forgive my making any mistakes. I do not want to get into a semantic argument but would like to offer my opinion.
    The Quran is a document which can be read and understood on many levels. It can be read on a literal level, a historical level or an allegorical level.

    There may well be verses that discuss the difficulties of the grave but is this a literal or metaphorical representation? The Quran itself claims that some verses are clear in meaning and some are open to diverse interpretations so I am not stating anything heretical or unknown.

    The next life is unknown to us. We can read holy books and try to reach our own understanding or interpretation but in terms of knowledge it is unknown. This video is an attempt to understand something of which no human has certain knowledge. I feel the man is off the mark but none of us can prove what actually awaits us.
    Also, the Quran speaks of ‘believers’ and people without belief. That is NOT the same as Muslim and non-Muslim. One can ‘believe’ without being Muslim, the two words are not interchangable but are different and distinct.

    Humans have throughout history have used religion to wage war and to seek power. Muslims are no exception. But I firmly believe that the Quran contains truth and has a beauty and depth to it. It is like a mirror, you see what you are looking for. Earlier Muslims loved maths and therefore saw numbers and mathematical patterns in the Quran. Some love poems and saw poetry. I know a physicist who saw physics and a judge who saw justice and both based their life’s work on these principles. If you read the Quran wanting to find hatred and anger you will see that.

    In the Quran when any prophet – and even Iblis – made a request (or prayer) God answered it. God even answered the request of Iblis and did not punish him (or he was punnished with bannishment). Why should we assume that the same God who answered all these requests would need to punish us in a horriffic manner in the grave? Non believers are the creation of God as are believers. What benefit would it serve to God to punish His own creation?

    Just MHO

  198. As far as I have understood from your comments above,that you have read Quran You said” I firmly believe that the Quran contains the truth and has a beuty and depth to it” Having said that how you can say “WHAT BENEFIT WOULD IT SERVE TO GOD TO PUNISH HIS OWN CREATION?.
    A question “Can you name anything which is not His creation”
    If I ask you “How comes that ” LOVE ALLAH AND FEAR ALLAH at the same time”.
    I do not answer the questions above, you think, think and think.If you want talk about separately on the subject please note my E MAIL address”

  199. @human1
    Thanks for your comments. I think you made a couple very good ones.

    I would like to correct a couple of points you mentioned however.

    “Belief is different than Islam.” That is true from one angle. But misleading from another angle. People believe in God in different ways People can believe in a day of judgement, but they may have drastically different views of it and what will happen.

    The point is though, that there can not be more than one truth or reality. And us as humans have a duty to ponder and think about what actually will happen. A good way to do this is to sincerely make a prayer to God asking Him to guide you to the path that is correct. And He will guide you.

    From the muslim perspective, belief has to be accurate and based on reality. Belief in God, the Day of Judgement, etc. And muslims believe that God has sent messengers since the beginning of the human race to explain what is that correct belief in Him, and in the afterlife. The messengers were given books that unfortunately were tampered with by humans and they changed the message of God. So the final message with that accurate belief is what the final messenger, Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم was sent with, which is the Quran, which affirms that God has sent messengers with their books, but people played with the books, and killed their messengers, or denied them. And since it is the last message to mankind before the day of judgement, God made a promise to protect it from being tampered with, which is a big difference from the previous books like the torah, the bible, and the psalms of david.
    But remember, the muslim is NOT a muslim if they deny the previous books mentioned and others where not given to noble messengers in the past, all sent by the same One true God.

    So that is why it is said in the Quran,
    و من يبتغي غير الإسلام دينا فلن يقبل منه .
    “Whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him.”

    Why is this the case? Because logically, there can only be one REALITY about the afterlife, and if you don’t believe in it accurately, then your belief is not accurate. We must believe in God and the afterlife correctly.

    I hope what I said clarifies some things.

  200. Erm, there is a slight argument over a term or two.
    Muslim is one who follows a certain prophet.
    Islam is one who submits to a particular god, that of Judaism, Christianity and Muslim beliefs.
    Before we pick the nit, we SHOULD define the terms, rather than argue over what the defined term is (whilst not mentioning the previous terms and never considering them).
    As for a god being he or she, that is irrelevant, as any male MUST have a female by definition. So, by pure definition, ANY god must have zero sex. Something beyond consideration when ANY religious texts were written, hence could not be comprehended at the time.
    Indeed, the creator, in the terms of THIS discussion, has both male AND female characteristics. Creation being female, rule bring and discipline being male.
    Meanwhile, as ANY parent knows, BOTH are shared roles to balance a child.

    So, in the confines of one’s one consideration of a supreme being, one must ask a few questions to be honest and not playing the robot.
    1: Is the creator of a defined sex?
    2: Is the creator an authority figure for the populace and directly micromanages our affairs?
    3: Can the creator give differing messages to different cultures that may not understand the context of other cultures? (Suggestion for consideration, Arabs are from an arid area, I’m from a highly productive and kind continent whose flora are 95% edible and whose fauna are sparsely hostile to humans. Mentions of hospitality being supremely honorable is beyond the ken of those from my region, as rejection of hospitality isn’t fatal, where it is for desert dwellers.)
    4: Do you REALLY believe that the creator is SO poor at planning that creation requires micromanagement? If so, you’ve disproved omniscient nature of the creator.

    THAT all said…
    When my two year old child asked me where their upcoming sibling came from, I OBVIOUSLY did not respond with the bald truth. I simply related some fairy stories, with mom’s and dad’s love, creating a child.
    I also didn’t truthfully explain WHY the sky is blue until the child was close to comprehension of physics. Upon which point, I gleefully expounded on the physics, after a few questions of the same nature, in massive detail and formulae.
    After which, I’m the supreme guide to reality, largely…

  201. @ayunas
    I fully agree with your comments and sermon. its beautiful. May Allah bless you with knowledge and wisdom. Aameen.

  202. Ayunas:

    How can your beleif be so accurate when the Quran you use is different from the manuscripts that are housed in the museums? How can you be accurate when words can have over 30 meanings? (Variant) How can you be sure that what you follow in the non-original text actually is correct?

    Why don’t you go to the debate page and read up on some of my last comments to another person. I will provide more information if you like.

  203. @bigstick1
    from several angles:

    Historical angle: The Quran was written down and memorized during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad’s time. More copies were compiled during the Companions’ time. The manuscript is the same Quran. Maybe they don’t have vowels and diacritical marks on it, because the native Arabs knew how to read it. For nonarabs, those vowels and diacritical marks had to be added so they could read it properly.

    Common Sense Angle- The book is memorized cover to cover word for word, letter for letter by millions of people. The same version. Even 5 year old children who don’t speak a word of Arabic. Try to get your child to memorize 5 pages of a book in English, see how easy it is. The Quran is 600 pages, and I speak from experience, I’ve memorized more than 300 pages from memory. الحمد لله.

    Logical Angle – If I believe God cares for us humans, He would not leave us without giving us information to be successful in this life and the next. So we need a message from our Creator to give us principles for how to live our life.

    Religious Angle – It is said in the Quran – “We will protect the Quran (from tampering).” I believe that the words in the Quran is the speech of God, not the words of Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم. So I believe that the Quran was never tampered with, and that same promise was not given to the earlier books like the torah, because it is mentioned in the Quran.

  204. @ayunas
    I fully agreee with, what you said. I like your knowledge and I wish I can be in constant contact with you if you dont mind. I will learn from you,Sir. Please note my E Mail address ”” and my tel: 0208 553 0849Please keep in touch. Thanks

  205. @bigstick1
    You have not read Quran and understood , thats why you are talking RUBBISH. Sorry.

  206. The following story from UK is sickening; I almost barfed when I read it. Such so-called “men” definitely need the severest of punishments in the grave …

    “A gang of nine Muslim men who groomed white girls as young as 13 with drink and drugs were driven by ‘lust and greed’, a judge ruled today as he jailed them for a total of 77 years”.

  207. Ayunas:

    Here is some more information.


    I have read the Quran many times then found it to be for the most part rubbish. Same with the Bible.

    It is interesting as far as history nothing more.

  208. @bigstick. I bet you you have not read Quran. Its a lie. May be you have read Bible. Do you understand “Holy Spirit”. Holy Spirit is the name of god.

  209. Do we need to break into the child behavior. No you didn’t – Yes I did. No – you didn’t …..Yes, I did. No, you didn’t …..Yes I did.

    Seriously, I have read the Quran and the Bible. I have also read numerous books from scholars regarding said historical documents.

  210. I find it earthshaking that an atheist like bigstick considers the bible and quran historic documents, as the majority of atheists consider them fables!
    I also consider them historic documents, mis-repeated and mis-transliterated into things not of original intent.
    But, that is my own perspective.
    But, one MUST consider, is a book, written by man, recorded by man, repeated by man, a work of a creator? ESPECIALLY when said books conflict with each other?

    I humbly suggest, consider the LESSON, less the entire story in a particular book. For, in ALL of those books, the essential lesson is pretty clear. Not the god thing, but how to behave, treat one another and overall look at living together. NO wars have EVER been fought over THOSE lessons. One cannot say the same over the other lessons of man, written by man, repeated by man and drummed to war by man.

  211. Why do you find it earth shaking? They are historical documents in that they have shaped history, tradition and culture. It just happens to be that people based and still base their lives on make believe.

    Look even today, you have people killing other people over make believe religion. Guess what that is history therefore the documents are history or history in the making. This is because these manmade allegorical fairytales have shaped the events of our past and still are shaping our history. Have you ever heard of Islam? Lots of people killed in the name of it, you know beaten to death, behead for being a witch, stoned, gutted, burned with fire/acid, etc.

    I won’t even get into the Christian/Catholic history as I could also describe pretty much the same.

    Ergo historical/history. Seriously, an atheist knows this.

  212. Honest Abe … what is more sickening is that the British police didn’t do anything about it at first. One reason was that they weren’t believing some of the girls (happened here where I live) and the second more serious reason is that the police didn’t want to be seen as racist picking on the Pakistanis. Now that is sickening and very, very troubling.

    As to the rest of you arguing about Islam and trying to force your views on each other … Childish!

  213. Can you please give me the definition of Holy Spirit for learning. Thanks

  214. I think the lawyer claimed they were picked on for their race (not because they did anything wrong?). Muslim Feminists posted that story yesterday. Sad.

  215. Sami:

    The definition of Holy Spirit is a label given to a make believe deity that is endowed with some make believe power which typically threatens to inflict pain and dismember in this life and particularly the hearafter unless one adheres to hateful, destructive manmade practices.

    Yup. Pretty much sums it up.

    What is your definition?

  216. Wzrd:

    Your comment:

    “I humbly suggest, consider the LESSON, less the entire story in a particular book. For, in ALL of those books, the essential lesson is pretty clear. Not the god thing, but how to behave, treat one another and overall look at living together. NO wars have EVER been fought over THOSE lessons. One cannot say the same over the other lessons of man, written by man, repeated by man and drummed to war by man.”

    Could you go back and re-read the bible/torah/quran again. I read it as follows:

    A woman is the property of a man.
    It is okay for parents to kill there kids for misbehaving
    You can marry kids or infants
    You can kill your enemy perceived or real
    Slavery is okay
    Rape is okay
    Murder is okay
    Racism is okay
    Hatred of others who do not share your belief is okay
    Continue list.

  217. Bstick,your understanding of the Qur’an is tht of an extremist poikt of view,not unlike many radical.

  218. Mrs. B:

    Hey. How the are you? How is the baby?

    Yes, I am an extremist. I write about things such as inhumanity of the quran, bible, and torah. By the way you forgot about those. I wasn’t selective I put them all in. I am an extremist because I think kids should be kids, I think kids should not be killed, I think women should not be raped free or slaves, I think people should be able to have freedom, I think people should have dignity of their person, I think people are more than the sum of their clothing, I think women are intelligent, I think gays/lesbians are okay and deserve full rights, etc.

    However, I know in your non-extremist view that women are the sum of their clothing, that they should be judged by the lack of the clothing as it is what makes them pious, they should be kept (like an animal) by their husbands, they should be intelligent in matters of the home, they should be beaten if they go against this (lightly of course), non-muslims converted at force, made to pay taxes to the muslims or put into slavery, apostates should be killed, etc.

    Remember freedom is about being able to say things you don’t like.


    I am enjoying this far too much.

  219. MrB,

    How dare you attack allah taallah, mohammed swt, and noble koran :)-
    Don’tcha know that islam is the EIGHTH and the GREATEST wonder of all the wonders of the world?

  220. Bstick,i m ok,though the lack of sleep does tend to get to mr.n tye baby is great,never cease to amaze me n the husband with her latest antics mashaAllah.

    Ok you are wrong to say i support so and so..i am against the things you stated,each time i read news about extremists doing harm to others, i feel angry n pray to Allah.i do not support crimes,slavery,rape etc.i love my child n felt sick to reae tht you seem to suggest i might kill her due to disobedience (don’t know how is tht part of Islam).i m against women being forced to dress a certain way.i m also against women being pressured to present themselves for the sake of men.but you think as i might be religious,i must be a lover of inhuman doings. Bstick,i hv read ur wordpress n amongst all those hate n extremism, i do see a lovable side of u when u talk about ur children.i like tht.but your approach on religion is, I’ve said it before n I’ll say it again, tht of an extremist bigoted misinformed misquote n missing the entirety altogether.Islam is peace,plain n is ppl with evil agendas,religious or atheists , tht screws the world up with their hatred n blindness.

  221. Mrs. B:

    Finally, you actually stated you were against these things. Look I know people who are religious that do good things and don’t judge other’s worth by their religion, gender or anything else, but I also know the opposite. Often times people who are of the first lot don’t get involved in matters of equality as they are just living their lives. However there are those who do want to impose their beliefs on others. Let’s take for instance here in the USA. There is actually a group of Jews (Hasidic) who actually go out of their way to discriminate against women by trying to run them off the road when they are bicycling as they are not dressed modestly and they harass women who get on buses(public) to sit in the back. This is typical of men who are religous zealots. In addition, women are judged not on their abilities but upon how they dress which is wrong.

    Women are women whether dressed in the most modest attire to the most freeing attire. They are intelligent, thoughtful, strong, helpful, autonomious, worthy, equal and vibrant people who are worthy to share the public space and contribute intelligent, thoughtful and meaningful ideas to the world. They provide a balance that men often times fail to see. They provide a betterment to the world environment that is beneficial to all. Now the thing is when men force women out of the public sector or to the corners of her home we as a world, as a society suffer because the 50% or more of our people are not being allowed to share in society, in the better of medicine, science, enviroment, and just the true enjoyment of sharing yourself as a person with others. Now in this I don’t mean anything sexual but we as a world are cheated out of better lives, fuller lives, and happier lives by not allowing the other half of humanity into the public sphere.

    Now like it or not this suppression and oppression creates backwards and often times violent societies. I for one don’t want this for my family nor for the future of my children.

  222. Honest:

    Funny. 🙂

  223. Sorry to be away for so long, but family health things distracted me and rightfully so.
    bigstick and MrsB, I agree with BOTH of you and disagree with both in some areas.
    Where one wishes to enforce lack of free will, I disagree. Where one wishes to force one’s national, cultural or ethnic will, I disagree.
    Where one disagrees with a cultural view, I conditionally agree, I may well also agree with the cultural view or disagree, but that is FREE WILL. I’ll NOT deny free will until it DOES CAUSE HARM ALWAYS. Not for a few, but for a majority. Because, if I went for ALL, I’d destroy the USA, as domestic violence is through the roof right now, largely due to economic issues (though THAT is currently not released from the CDC, yet).
    If one were to nuke EVERY unfair nation on this planet, one would rapidly run out of nations.
    If one were to damn a nation due to unfair things, ALL would be toast.
    We ALL have our failings. We ALL have our good points. I honestly suggest and I suspect bigstick would back, a view where ALL learn from the mistakes of others and move FORWARD.
    AND recognize that it’ll be more than a month, more like generations to influence cultures!

  224. @bigstick
    You talk too much and absurd. Show yourself. What are you, a woman,a man,a gay, a trririst,a lesbian, a child ,a mother, a father.

  225. Sami:

    So your are throwing down the gauntlet? What? Show yourself or else. What the heck is that? A hollow threat.

    Is this because your argument is weak, fragile, flimsy, and transparent? So instead of actually defending your point you challenge who I am rather than engaging in intellectual challenges and pursuits.

    By the way what the heck is a “trririst”?


    More rantings.

  226. Wzrd:

    Okay this part I agree with:

    honestly suggest and I suspect bigstick would back, a view where ALL learn from the mistakes of others and move FORWARD.
    AND recognize that it’ll be more than a month, more like generations to influence cultures!

  227. sami, on May 13, 2012 at 12:07 am said: What are you, a woman,a man,a gay, a trririst,a lesbian, a child ,a mother, a father.

    Hmmm. What does all this whiney-babe stuff has to do with the ongoing discussion … especially “a trririst”. Is that a sunni/shia “trririst” sect?

    Sami, You Never Do EVIL So Completely And Make EVIL Comments So Cheerfully As When You Do It In The Name Of Islam :)-

  228. I think that a trririst is a variety of tribble.

  229. Is that the William Shatner – the orginal Star Trek version of the Tribbles or something else.

  230. Here is a cultural awareness documentary I believe by HBO on the point I mentioned about the culture of memorizing the Quran from memory from childhood.

    If anything, take it as a cultural awareness video for those not aware. Thanks.

  231. Ayunas,

    Thx so much for posting the video! I listened to the entire 33-mins of it.

    As you know, I am no big fan of islam and the violence/jihad it preaches. However, after listening to koran recitations, I must admit it left a peaceful, profound and indelible impressions on my heart and mind.

    If only and if only islam was as equally peaceful …..

  232. Ayounas,thank u for tye video.listening to those children read the holy Qur’an makes me cry rrom the sheer beauty n peacefulness of Allah’s words. Djamil from Senegal especially touched me mashaAllah.

  233. Abe,thanks for sharing your nice feelings,it was refreshing to read for once. Islam is actually peaceful,if only you would Look into it with clean heart n mind. God bless.

  234. @MB

    Sorry but I did not say that islam is peaceful. Only that listening to koran recitation was peaceful (brought me almost to tears) without even understanding a word of it ….

  235. Oh Honest Abe. How I wish I could show you that Islam doesn’t teach violence. That killing innocent people is of the worst things you can do in the religion. Where it says in the Quran,

    ومن قتل نفسا بغير نفس أو فساد في الأرض فكأنما قتل الناس جميعا و من أحياها فكأنما أحيا الناسا جميعا.

    “And whoever killed a person, other than a punishment for murder or for corruption on earth, it is as if you killed all of humanity. and if you save someone’s life, it is as if you saved the life of all of humanity.”

    I know you may not believe that from looking at those “Islamists” who are using religion to justify killing and violence. But those people are making TERRIBLE TERRIBLE mistakes and have misunderstood the Islamic texts. To be honest, those militants are the ones who are causing corruption on earth. I ask the nonmuslims here to please not judge the religion of Islam because of a few incredibly foolish militants who are causing so much harm and negativity to the religion that in reality wants PEACE for humanity. There are more than 1 billion muslims who do not believe violence is part of Islam.

    A sincere heart wanting to find the truth WILL find the truth. And there is no person that can get in the way.

  236. Suggested reading … myself, my Muslim husband and Jewish brother-in-law all agree this is a powerful book!
    The Attack
    by Yasmina Khadra

    From the bestselling author of The Swallows of Kabul comes this timely and haunting novel that powerfully illuminates the devastating human costs of terrorism.Dr. Amin Jaafari is an Arab-Israeli surgeon at a hospital in Tel Aviv. As an admired and respected member of his community, he has carved a space for himself and his wife, Sihem, at the crossroads of two troubled societies. Jaafari’s world is abruptly shattered when Sihem is killed in a suicide bombing.As evidence mounts that Sihem could have been responsible for the catastrophic bombing, Jaafari begins a tortured search for answers. Faced with the ultimate betrayal, he must find a way to reconcile his cherished memories of his wife with the growing realization that she may have had another life, one that was entirely removed from the comfortable, modern existence that they shared

  237. ayunas:

    I have more than just the problems of violent passages within the text that lends itself to terrorist activities. I have problems with its discriminatory and hateful practices towards women. The fact that it equates humans to virtually a walking external sex organ. That allows for sexual slavery here and in the sky. I have problems with it’s hatred of homosexuals, with its hatred of the other, the belief in witches, the belief in murder, etc.

    Again just because the text has been standardized and codified to two primary editions today does not mean that is where it started from as it is not. The history shows that the text took centuries to form and it was in the 9th century that a string of scholars wanted to ensure uniformity.

    Next yes it is a nice recitation. That said, the recitation is similar to wolf in sheep clothing. In addition, you can make a lot sound great in certain languages if you don’t know the meaning. The act of recitation does not substitute understanding and meaning.

    I can make a beautiful song in any language(so long as you don’t understand the meaning) all the while stating I am going to kick your ass, rape your women and slit your throat. However, I assure you the song was beautiful. Get my point.

  238. ayunas, you left a great opening for attack when you didn’t clarify the corruption on Earth…
    ALWAYS consider how another may work fitnah with your words and work to prevent it. 🙂

  239. @wzrd1 – sounds like some brotherly advice 🙂 hehe.

    I briefly researched the meaning of “corruption on earth.” This is meant like capital punishment for some major crime, like highway robbery, or raping someone’s daughters, or other crimes of the like that causes some major harm to society. This time of punishment is only supposed to be executed by the Islamic government. Any random muslim is NOT allowed to carry out a punishment on their own, ie. taking the “law into their own hands.” It is equivalent to an individual U.S. citizen trying to apply the U.S. government laws on an individual without the government having anything to do with it.

  240. Ayunas, unlike Judaism, where a family member can avenge blood, save if the target seeks sanctuary at a temple sanctuary city.
    Though, that is moot in the modern world.

  241. Salamun Aleikum Ayunas,

    You quoted this verse: “And whoever killed a person, other than a punishment for murder or for corruption on earth, it is as if you killed all of humanity. and if you save someone’s life, it is as if you saved the life of all of humanity.”

    I believe you are quoting only a part of verse 5:32: “Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he has given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.”

    I noticed the part about the exception regarding “corruption done in the land.” What happens to those who commit this ill-defined sin?

    “This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.”

    That’s Qur’an 5:33 folks, right after 5:32.

    I have found that many muslims, during interfaith dialogues or other one-on-one interactions, don’t mention that during such lovefests. And I have always wondered what does that omission indicates? :)-

  242. @honestabe.

    بسم الله

    You quoting the verse before leads to controversy, and misunderstanding. My philosophy: If you don’t understand the BASIC FOUNDATION of Islam, which is about who the Creator is, and the theology, then we are wasting energy and time debating.

    I will briefly respond here, but because I am not at a stage where I can get into detailed debates, I will stop here.

    This verse talks about the penalty for committing crimes. i.e.. PENAL code. Islam only wants to protect society from crime and injustice. We want PEACE, not CRIME. What to do if someone is doing some really bad things, like fighting and ruthless murder and raping, and major crimes of violence in society?

    Islam gives 4 options for the penalty for these heinous crimes according to the severity of the crime. The judge chooses the appropriate penalty.

    1. Death Penalty – Maybe for a serial killer
    2. Crucifixion – maybe for a tyrant who would get pleasure from crucifying innocent people.
    3. Cut off hands and feet – Maybe for highway robbery
    4. Banished from land – meaning locked up in jail. For another major crime.

    THE WHOLE POINT of this is to STOP people from CRIME. ISLAM WANTS PEACE. What will happen if there are no consequences for people’s actions? There will be chaos and no justice given to people.

    Islam wants PEACE. Muslims say the following 5 times a day after prayer:

    اللهما أنت السلام و منك السلام
    God, you are the source of peace, and only from You comes peace.

    This is all I will say on this topic.

    If any nonmuslim wants to talk about Islam. then first start with learning Who God really is in Islam.

    God is free from any shortcomings or bad characteristics. He is the Creator, the Sustainer, the Nourisher, the Loving One, The Most Merciful, The Protector. He is the most Just. He doesn’t do injustice to ANYBODY. He is the Source of peace.

  243. Ayunas, I am curious about one question and mean no offense in asking it, just simply being inquisitive.
    Do you consider your god a male, as in male as humans have male and female?
    As a species of two sexes and no neuter sex or lack of sex or whatever one would wish to call it, we tend to not have a term to define that.
    The reasoning for the question is, for a deity to be male, it implies a female to complement, to complete the set of sexes. Other faiths would have a goddess but lack a god to also accompany the gender. Others actually define the sex as non-gendered godhood that has no other term, but also refers in the custom of the language of referring to a gender.
    Obviously, referring to someone’s god as IT can be considered offensive, but I know of only a few languages that have a gender neutral word for such a non-gender being.
    Do you believe that your god is a male? Or do you believe that your god doesn’t truly have a gender as we understand genders and we simply lack the language to state that concept?

  244. Ayunas:

    The elusive Islam wants peace. Slavery, discrimination, sex slaves (wives), beaten women (added lightly which actually doesn’t exist), killing apostates, killing heretics, forced conversion or tax paying for mafia protection or the cleansing of all that does not adhere to the hate religion.

    Here is some past history of Islam and its form of peace.

  245. Ayunas:

    You might want to research the jannah for women. I find it lacking in compared to men. In fact, it sounds more like waiting to be bedding by a husband you probably didn’t like in the first place. So you are imprisioned on earth as well as heaven as she has no say. That is if you take the koran/hadith accounts.

    Hell on earth with a husband you hate and damn to eternal hell in heaven with the husband you hate. Nice.

    Not good to be a pearlly boy either.

  246. wzrd1:

    This puts a whole new spin on things: 😀

  247. @wzrd1

    Good question.

    God in Islam doesn’t have a gender. He is referred to as “Him or He” in english for lack of suitable word. He created the creation in pairs, male and female. The pronoun in Arabic (هو) (huwa) can refer to it or him. So that is the pronoun used to refer to God.

    That article about Allah as a woman is completely a wrong picture.

    ليس كمثله شيء وهو السميع البصير
    There is absolutely nothing similar to Him. He is the All Hearing, the All Seeing.

  248. Mrs B, I apologize for the lack of reading, I’ll read it tomorrow, but it’s late. My question WAS to Ayunas, but welcome others input.
    Ayunas, that you reject Allah as female, but accept the partial acceptance as male is both telling and unfortunate. Can YOU or any OTHER human, even your own prophet define the creator?!
    Now, consider the creator’s HABIT, for a lack of a better term.
    Creates a universe or even multiverse. Creates planets that orbit stars, each of which are wonderous. THEN creates or causes to originate creatures that can learn and originate free thought.
    Then, consider, is THAT male or female.
    In HUMAN terms, it’s NEITHER. I’s neuter, though THAT term tends toward defect in human terms, hence is gender irrelevant.
    In most Christian books, “God created man in his own image”, is it far more likely that man was created “unto himself”, as in free will for man, unlike other creations, forethought, which is lacking in most species (other than a few hours at best for a few primates) and able to consider far greater?
    If so, are you a father? Have you ever been asked HOW your upcoming brother or sister CAME to be near born?
    The REAL answer is a bit, erm not germane to a child of tender years, obviously!
    Did you avoid the question a bit and give a child’s answer? Or did you explain HOW, with precision, baby was conceived?
    I know OUR answer, no specifics until the child was well old enough to comprehend the information.
    As a small hint, our grandchild is a bit over two, our newest is expected to arrive in July and I’m a half century old, but look a bit worse for wear, due to my life experiences.
    One gives a child, whether it is a singular one of one’s “loins” or a species, lessons to learn. One advances further upon maturity.
    In the US, my father was a stone mason and worked a LOT with concrete, largely in installing gasoline stations, but also forming by hand constructs for sewage treatment and storm drains (which were considered ONLY as prefab units until he was asked).
    I rather looked down upon my father, in my rather higher education, as he dropped out of high school. Then, I read his concrete texts in the basement, which STILL are current, 40+ years later. He suddenly got a LOT brighter!
    Today, hes 82 and far worse for wear. Indeed, I and my wife value greatly the most lucid times, as we learn so much about our past. During summer vacation from school, I worked with him a few times. Once, I got to watch him get thrown 10 feet by a backhoe operator’s, erm, poor skills. Said operator jumped from the machine and “disappeared” for three days after, as my father got back up, picked up his square shovel and had a certain look in his eye that’d make ME jump out of that damned backhoe and run for three days!
    Actually, far longer…
    I also remember my mother pale and shaken, a women who defined “spitfire” in a woman, especially being of german and dutch heritage. Indeed, she was the cast iron bitch from hell to anyone who tried to harm a child. I’m far worse than that, as I’ve personally WITNESSED bad to children and my wife and I had 16 pregnancies and only two survivors. SHE was badly shaken when my father came home, with badly abraded legs (which remain today), from when the retaining walls collapsed after a bit of lightning, he was buried up to his waist in concrete. The bucket operator called to him to grab on, seconds after he did and was pulled free, totally naked, save for the concrete residue on his body and burns/bruises that remain today.
    In THOSE days, a white man inviting a black man into one’s home was,erm, beyond bad, REALLY beyond bad. I DO remember those days QUITE well, due to confusion and conflicting information.
    I recall a race demonstration 100 meters from me ( 100 yards for US newbies), to learn they got the living hell beat out of them, to later be the rightful victors.
    I remember my father coming home that day with pants too small by far, a rope around where his belt SHOULD be, crutches and good men trying to help him in everything, moving into the house, sitting down, calming mom and myself.
    To be blunt, if those were niggers, I want to be 6 of them! Damned good men who I learned personally all too well.
    I and many, many, many, many friends ALL agree, a nigger isn’t a color of skin, it’s a state of being, white, yellow, red, black or plaid.
    That said,my father did use that term, though not in meaning, only in educational terms, he knew no better and learned slowly, meanwhile personally advocating for his workers, never realizing the depth of his contributions.
    I personally witnessed JFK’s assassination, my mother suggested I watch him on TV while she pulled the curtains down for cleaning.
    I grew up watching the Vietnam war, learning about my cousin’s bronze star after he fell down the basement steps, to learn he was sole survivor of his unit during the Tet.
    I’ve watched a cousin that was a pure and distilled POS from hell drug abuser grown to a respected adult, who was killed on the 84th floor of the south tower.
    I’ve informed my godson that daddy wasn’t coming home again, but never could explain WHY, due to security constraints.
    I’ve shot to death a 5 year old child in combat, in error true, as I was trying to shoot his brother, the sniper, who surrendered when I killed his brother. Only to end up defending said elder brother from his own mother, who lost her husband, then eldest son to war.
    He’s since been returned home.
    To be fucking blunt, I’ve seen a lot of shit and a lot of GOOD shit.
    I also have been afflicted with a good memory.
    While I PREFER to remember the good things, I also remember the bad.
    I have zero regrets. Even when regarding that minor child, as I had to protect the elder brother from mom and, in my eyes, for damned good reason!
    We cleaned up the child, wrapped him up in my personal gear (had more than a few volunteers, as I was a senior NCO) and contacted the senior leaders of the village, THEN had the wives contact mom.
    I’d rather masturbate with hydrofluoric acid than revisit that moment in life, but mom’s malice was directed against her eldest son, who was “with dad” in the emotions and deeds.
    So, to say that I’ve been on the inside of bad shit is to be rather bland
    I’ve also turned villages toward our side, to INCLUDE said village, as the elders and even the mother recognized honor, fucked if I could see honor in bringing back a 5 year old without much of a fucking face!

    The thing is, one seeks peace of war.
    War is easy, though it tends to bring REALLY bad dreams in the middle of the night.
    The ONLY two nightmares I have are the above child and my godson, who I could not explain why daddy wasn’t coming home again, as the truth would’ve quite literally resulted in WWIII with thermonuclear actions by day 3.
    His wail STILL awakens me some nights, some near 30 years later.

    bigstick, DO talk more about me being off of meds I don’t take or be prescribed.
    I’m only thankful of one thing. YOU didn’t go through that shit. I did so you didn’t have to.
    Now, excuse me while I get really, REALLY drunk.
    It won’t remove what was, but it’ll quite things until tomorrow, when I’m better rested.

  249. @Wzrd1
    i have read yr thesis above. You started from the gender problem of God male or female.
    You are a confused person. Take it easy. Topic is punishment in the GRAVE?
    Think what you are writing on the subject. Sorry.

  250. @ayunas
    I do agree with you regarding the Gender. I can only qoute Sura AL_INAAM AYAT N> 101.
    Allah says how He can have a son when “He” has no SHREEK_E_ZINDGI (in english “CONSORT” is is the right word).
    Some translators have stated that He said He has no wife how He can have a Son.
    It all depends how one thinks.

  251. @Wzrd1
    I believe in uran and I refer to Quran. Read : 6: 101-102

  252. Here we go again! Another tear-jerker from Londonistan ….

    Father-in-law, 56, who kept son’s 22-year-old Pakistani bride as a sex slave was caught when she learned enough English to call 999:

    Evil 56-year-old made his victim swear on the Koran that she would keep the abuse secret;

    The woman came to the UK speaking no English following an arranged marriage;

    After three months of abuse the bride, 22, was able to speak enough of the language to tell police;

    Depraved sexual attacks caused the women to contemplate suicide;

    Husband stopped staying with his parents, leaving vulnerable bride at his father’s mercy.

    Hope this guy … of the many millions of muslim misunderstanders of islam …. gets big time punishment of the grave. May the Angels hit him with hammers made of steel!

    Sad thing is that sex slaves are allowed and sanctioned by the koran (men may enjoy ‘what your right hands own,’ 4:3).

  253. Thtw a terrible news abe. Now would you mind reading this to better understand your sex slaves comment

  254. Fortunately your story link doesn’t lead to anything, Abe and I can’t be bothered with UTUBE. Your hatred of Islam is tiresome. There are people like this in every culture, religion, country, etc. etc. etc.

  255. @MB

    Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on pov) the ask-imam link and couple of other links that you provided earlier don’t lead to anything. MB, sorry but I can’t be bothered with such idiotic bs links.

    If allah/mohammed wrote in the koran that it is mobeen (clear as crystal), then why are there 1.6 billion exegesis and thesis and interpretations of each and every verse? Did allah/mohammed lie in the koran (n’billa) whereby there is a plethora of 1.6 billion personal fatwas?

    Now about this demonic father-in-law in UK who kept his daughter-in-law as a SEX SLAVE and made her swear on the koran that she would keep the abuse secret: to him koran was mobeen (clear as crystal). Based upon koran verse 4.24 and hadith, either he issued a fatwa unto himself or went to a fatwa factory and purchased one, to satisfy his demonic conscience :)-

    As we know, there is no equivalent term for ‘rape’ in koran. Likewise, there is not a single verse which even remotely discourages forced sex. In contrast, there are several verses which give the green light to rape and other sexual crimes against women. For example, here in verse 4:24, it discusses lawful and forbidden women for pious Muslims:

    Koran 4:24: Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

    What we see in the beginning of this verse as “forbidden” refers to sexual intercourse. Koran dictates, women already married are forbidden for Muslims except those whom their right hands possess (sex slaves). It is obvious from this verse, a muslim can have sexual relations with his slave-woman.

    May bajillions of angels hit this demonically pious father-in-law with bajillions of hammers made of bajillions of pounds of steel! May allah/mohammed inflict upon him the severest of punishments from the grave and boil his flesh and skin multi-bajillions of times!

    P.S. MB, BTW your love of Islam is untiresme. There are very few people like this in other cultures, religions, countries, etc. etc. etc.

  256. Thank u Abe for your remarks as it further shows your “charming” character. As Wendy so correctly pointed out,there are people like you in any culture ,country etc.

    Ps:it isn’t my problem if you are unable to understand how qnd why slaves existed in tht time (through war not by son’s bride).

  257. Btw,i do love Islam(thts part n parcel or being a Muslim) but forgv me for correcting you,billions of faith lover could hardly be sum as a “few”.

  258. And before someone jumps ik to say faith doesnt necessarily mean so and so,well i am refering to the billions of religious faith lovers.

  259. Mrs. B:

    The elusive Islam that no one can show anyone where exists and as far as everyone states no country is practicing Islam, clerics call for death of apostates but that is not islam, witches are killed but that is not islam but yet others say it is.

    Tell me Mrs. B what is Islam and where is it being practiced by so many who are always saying but that country doesn’t practice Islam but they are muslims countries. Next, how can you even state billions as a number especially when so many will be killed for leaving it or cannot have their religion changed if born into it in some countries. In addition it is stated that it is 1.5 billion not billions and who knows how many of them would like to leave it be cant.

    Islam you can check it but you can’t check out. Hotel California song sums it up.

  260. And bstick,if you read my comment carefully, you’d see tht i wrote religiousfaith lovers and not Islam lovers.i was referring to all religion.

  261. Your right I missed that. Thankfully religous faith lovers grow less and less every year. The fast growing segment is non-religious, humanist, atheists and agnostics.

    I went through the fluff you provided as it is a basic overview but not an actually practice.

    Let me ask, do you believe that it is okay for your husband to obtain another wife without your knowledge or permission (as many clerics state men do not need the wives permission)? Are you going to be a good muslim wife and let him have more wives so long as he treats you fairly?

  262. What goes on between my husband n i should really be none of your concern but to clear matters for you,no i don’t accept.neither does he.And for argument’s sake,Islam doent NOT encourage polygyny. Islam actually reduced the number of wives one can attain (the Arabs used to yv countless hoards of wives).and the surah allowing polygyny came after the warbtwn Muslims and Arab Jahilliayah where many women were widowed.

  263. Mrs. B:

    Please provide historical evidence showing that multiple wives during that time was a problem. I do not think that it was. Given that fact that Mohammad was stated to keep girls for being buried alive and the dislike of having girls verse boys I would stated think there were not many relationships of this nature. Even still that are more boys born than girls by a ratio of 106 to 100 naturally. Burying and killings girls right off the bat would have really limited their numbers.

    So what historical documents do you have that states this was a rampant problem?

    Also do not use hadiths as historical evidence as they are considered by many to be fabrications and fantasy.

  264. How long have you been married?

  265. You may look at the works by Dr Nihal Sahin Utku, Dr Ragheb El Serghany, Christine Huda Dodge and may i recommend The Book of Marriage by Abu Daud

  266. As for the fluff tht i provided,what can i say besiees the fact tht this is what Islam teaches,as for it being practised or not,thts a different story altogether.don’t blame my math teacher for my mathematical skills or lack thereof.

  267. I will check them out and see what I find. I am not doing it tonight. I am getting tired. So I will get back with you on it give me a week or two. Remember I also have kids and my own site.

    I will read them though.

    Now did you read the comments I placed on the debate page to the good Dr. regarding interpretation and uniformity in codification?

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