Saudi Arabia/USA: It is a Lack of Tolerance or is it Fear?

Living now in North Carolina I think it is a fair statement to say that I live in part of America’s Bible belt.  It is not uncommon to see individuals gather hands and pray before a meal in a public restaurant.  It’s not even unusual to see people praying inside of a shop or mall.  In fact, one time while I was out shopping with my bald chemo head in a small shop a total stranger came up to me and asked if she could pray for my healing.  I was very moved by her gesture.

Yet it seems that many non-Muslims in America continue to feel various forms of trepidation when confronted with a Muslim.  If a Muslim chooses to pray during the day at appointed prayer times and in public, you can visibly see and feel most non-Muslim’s feeling of being uncomfortable.

This is the holy month of Ramadan and similar to when Christians celebrate Lent or Jews celebrate Hannukah, people should be more considerate of the respective beliefs of Muslims during their special time of prayers too.

Thankfully, one company, CEVA Logistics, in Mt. Juliet, Tennessee corrected the ways of intolerance and discrimination.  CEVA has some Muslims among its employees who desire to pray as close as possible to appointed prayer times.  The male employees chose to use the washroom as the place where they could perform wudu (cleansing prior to prayer) and then perform their prayer.  They performed these prayers during their standard break times.   It was especially important to nine Muslim employees to pray during Ramadan rather than have to make up for missed prayers later.

To their surprise and in spite of positive working records, the men were released from their duties and fired.  The men complained and an initial investigation took place.  All nine men have since been reinstated to their positions.

I consider Tennessee as part of the Bible belt just like North Carolina.  The question I wonder though in regards to Muslims who openly follow their faith and particularly in America’s Bible belt is whether non-Muslims are simply intolerant of a different faith or it is fear?


45 Responses

  1. I think it is both AB, a mixture of intolerance as well as fear of the unknown or differences. I myself was accosted by a local while on honeymoon with my husband in NYC,simply because of my headscarf(no abaya just tunic and jeans).it could be that we were in the city of 9/11 and the pain is still unhealed but then again why should I have to pay the price fr the acts of people who are strangers to me?! But i think religious discrimination shouldn’t exist in a great coumtry like USA as freedom to practise any religion is comstituitional. It is appaling that those men were fired despite their clean record. I doubt 5 minutes of prayer could really effect any work. It is just silly. A good employer would do his best to accomodate his employees whether by providing a nursery for working mothers or prayer hours for the religious or accomodating disabled employees. Ppl need to understand tht accomodating is not the same as allowing them to slack off!

  2. Probably some of both. My area doesn’t have very many Muslims so I imagine most people don’t know Muslims personally, much less have any as friends. So they likely get their idea of religious Muslims from TV or movies. It’s always those who pray to Allah or shout “Allahu Akbar” right before killing people – so it reinforces in their minds (maybe without their even realizing this) that you should be suspicious of religious Muslims. That’s my guess.

    But some people are just intolerant of people who aren’t like they are whether it is their religion, skin color, nationality – any number of things. I don’t know if it’s because of their more conservative religious beliefs that they are like this or if this suspicion of “outsiders” is just typical of some regions of the country more than others. Maybe it’s all tied in together. It would be an interesting study!

  3. Having lived in the Bible belt for most of my life I can say that it isn’t just muslims that they are intolerant to, it is anyone who isn’t their kind of Christian. It is an oppressive and intolerant area in many of those places. However that said it can be stated the same way for Amish, hasdic jews, muslims, mormons, etc. as they are taught often times from the very books they believe in to practice discrimination.

    I can site the passages in each one of them. They are following their religion to the T. Muslims have no room to complain as they are equally as quilty of this in their own lands and they have the same discriminatory passages within the Koran.

    Abrahamic religions by their nature are violent, discriminatory, divisional, gender apartheid, homophobia, racist, supports both child and spousal abuse as well as slavery.

    Just look at what Saudi does to non-muslims or Malaysia to atheists, pakistan does to Christians, Israel to both Christians and Muslims.

    Now as far as the company goes it could be that they (muslims) were abusing the system and the company had had enough but we will probably really never know depending on the agreement between them as it could have a gag order on it.

    Oh, one last thing. Most religious do not have an everyday 5 times a day praying ritual and other religious obligations such as Ramadan, etc. In other words there is going to be a limit to just how much a company will tolerate religous demands and remember they are demands.

  4. All religions are intolerant of other religions. They all think they are the only ones who got it right and the rest will go to hell.
    Besides, other religions are competition. Religions do not brook competition. It could have been worse, if these guys had been of a different religion, or atheists in countries like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia etc. they could have been murdered instead of dismissed with laws to back them up and get their jobs back.

    So in any area where one religion dominates, other religions and their rituals and superstitions will not be tolerated.

    In countries/places where secularism rules all religions are tolerated.
    Up until a certain level of course.

  5. It is to my belief that intolerancy comes from not knowing as does fear.

  6. I agree with Susanne.

    Sure Muslims pray 5 times a day but at work i think it would only be Dhohor and maybe maybe Asar. So again, why cant the company acommodate 5 minutes of prayer? Accomodating employees demand isnt really new since many employees would ask to have an off day to attend weddings etc. As long as it doesnt cause “undue hardship” it falls under the EEOC law.

  7. I thnk it’s a mixture of both with a hefty dose of the unknown and intolerance thrown in. No religion tolerates another one fully, for somereason they don’t see religion as a path to the same god.
    F doesn’t pray in public – AT ALL> ever. and that’s that. I to a large extent do not LIKE him to pray in public or at work. prayer is private so we keep it inside the confines of our home.

    it’s much better int he bible belt nowadays , a decade ago i remember being stared at for wearing the bindi – although friendly stares 🙂 i didn’t thnk it was intolerance then, it was just curiosity.

    I always tell F not to pray in public ever since with all the “allahu akbar” screaming before the killing, who knows which psycho will take it into his mind to suspect him and do something idiotic.
    One can openly practixe and yet keep it between you and god. from the other end, thinking of every “allahu akbar” scream as a cry before mayhem is just stupidity. Education is the key and education will open eyes and make us more tolerant, if not this generation then i guess we should focus on educating our young, so atleast they learn to live and acecpt each other.

    I always tell people who cre about my salvation or afterlife 🙂 to not worry, I’ll deal with my life you deal with yours, If people keep their overzealous religious fevor to themselves and not try to dump it on others i thnk we have room for all religions inthis world and a few more new ones too .

  8. “I doubt 5 minutes of prayer could really effect any work … “

    “5 minutes” ain’t the issue here. I think the bigger issue is ablution which leaves bathrooms in a gross mess, at places of employment, malls, hospitals, public places, etc. Gargling your noses deeply and then depositing the contents in the sink, washing the feet in the sink, etc leaving water on the floors and gross infection contaminants in the sink.

    And then not having the courtesy to clean after yourselves. And then when fellow employees and others complain about it, these same muslims play the victimhood card as always. This has more to do with common sense, courtesy to others, health regulations. Not EEOC for sure!

    I know many commonsensical muslims who have successfully transitioned from 610 AD to 2012 AD. They perform dry ablutions and then perform silent prayers at their desks or employee breakrooms. I am told that it is in perfect harmony with koran and hadith. If muslims want to leave a better perception about themselves and their religion of peace, they should start with this small yet peaceful step!

    “I myself was accosted by a local while on honeymoon with my husband in NYC …. “

    Such isolated incidents happen in any city, small or large or west or east. Besides, it sounds more like a random crime. Playing the victimhood card again, eh??

    I think it was either Hitler or Goebbels (not sure) who said something like this about Nazism: If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

  9. What is your problem with me Abe?? Ever since I came to this site you have been throwing snide remarks and off hand comments at me with every chance you get! It started with you finding out I am Malaysian and thus starting a tirade about that and so on. Would you start talking like a man for once instead of acting like an immature schook bully!! Your comments are always spiteful! I was sharing my experience as IN LINE WITH THE TOPIC so why would you accuse me of playing the victim card etc!! You, Abe, are one of those kind of people who I believe fit the bill of Ms Carol’s topic about intolerant and bigotted

  10. Isn’t this kind of behavior true of many observant religious societies threatened by other religious practices?

    I was listening to a relevant lecture by Tim Keller on “reason for god: Belief in the age of skepticism” where he mentioned why religious people tend to become aggressive towards other religions (as opposed to be a more substantially secure, secular society)..

    it is because they think they hold “THE truth” in their hands.

    This exclusive religious view is then followed by 5 stages that lead from belief in the truth to oppression:

    1. Superiority: You have a sense of superiority (you have the truth and you live a good life, they don’t..

    2. Separation: you stay away from them because they are impure

    3. Caricature: you caricature them because you don’t know them.

    4. Passive aggression: you lose respect for them and ignore their existence and opinions.

    5. Active aggression/oppression: you knock them down.


  11. Abe,if you dont know how to talk like a man instead of being petty and school bully-ish, go and learn because I won’t tolerate your under hand remarks against me anymore. You insult my religion, it is ok since freedom of speech but you are making it personal all the way with me with your underhand remarks at each and every comment i make. Intolerant is not even ideal to describe you.

  12. I wouldn’t expect you to sympathize with my bad experience but to mock the situation and make my horrible experience as if it was nothing to cry about that is just low. Maybe i should be the next Marwa El Sharbini to deserve crying victim,EH??

  13. unfortunately some vocal Muslim individuals & groups give good reason for non-Muslims to be concerned about “stealth jihad” and UNreasonable accomodations; concern is neither intolerance or fear, though those too exist, as does the opposite uninformed, reckless acceptance of all things done in name of tolerance

  14. It is a Lack of Tolerance or is it Fear? Carol, I think it is a combination of both, with a greater tilt towards “fear”.

    Coincidentally yesterday, Mrs. Clinton issued the annual “International Religious Freedom Report for 2011”. I researched the entire report and found that all muslim countries are one and the same, more or less, when it comes to intolerance and fear of non-muslims in their countries. The report gives a comprehensive view of muslim-on-muslim killings, killings of hindus/christians/jews, burning of hindu temples, churches, synagogues, forced conversions, etc etc etc.

    Carol, hope your readers find it as informative and enlightening as I did!

  15. Sorry! Here is the correct link:

  16. In general I think Americans and to a lesser extent people from other secular countries have been taught to fear Muslims.

    On the subject of prayer – we in Canada and the USA are living in secular countries. Prayer does not interfere with work so I don’t agree that exceptions should be made for Muslims. It is not necessary for Muslims to pray at an appointed time – they can make up their prayers at other times. I am definitely one who believes religion is best left out of the workplace, public school, etc.

  17. Abe, I also think you are going out of your way to make a jab at mrs Bawazir. It doesn’t add more value to your comments.
    So did you have personal experience of such besmirched bathrooms? Did you accost the people responsible?

    pondereeyat, Thanks for sharing that video.
    I checked out your website and I really like it.

  18. I think I agree with Radha the most.

    In regards to 5mins here and there, on an 8-hour shift, employees are allowed two 15-minute breaks in addition to a 30-minute lunch in the US. I do not see a problem with Muslims using this time to pray. I see prayer as a form of meditation, and since meditation is supposed to help one think clearly, it may actually increase the work output. I think it would be an interesting thing to research. I prefer to keep my personal religious/non-religious beliefs mostly to myself unless asked, but if someone else wants to practice whatever religion in public, I don’t see a problem with it.

  19. Okay:

    I watched the video. I agree with the 5 points past that I think he complicates a simple truth. Indoctrination of children holds great sway and when you feel it slipping away then you shore up your investment into indoctrination and fundalmentalism. The reason the middle is disappearing is because they are becoming secular.

    In addition it will take more than his life time to see greater results in the hardliners and many generations.

    He is just another religious (Christian) attempting to solidify the Religion doctrines which by the way is different from a belief system it is a control doctrine with rules. A belief in God is a separate issue than that of a doctrine of control to which has kidnapped an individuals ability to believe.

    In addition it is imposing his view upon others based upon a control doctrine.

  20. Aside from this, how many people in the US take smoke breaks while at work? Why should we allow smoke breaks but not prayer breaks? Just sayin’…

  21. Smoke breaks? Not in Canada. And in most places your break times are assigned. If people want to pray on their breaks there’s no problem but to be given special time off for their religion …. no! It’s things like this that will upset others. Wanting special privileges … forget it! Muslims are not special and above others. People do NOT ask to have or get meditation time at work unless they work for a really great company that encourages that sort of thing and they are certainly not the norm.

  22. @Wendy,
    The places that I’ve worked at -even in service-oriented positions- have been fairly laid back as far as break times. Of course, if it’s busy, then the break would have to wait. Unless, of course, there’s a health issue like hypoglycemia or something. I’m sure there are industries and companies where breaks are more set in stone due to the nature of the position, but these are exceptions to the rule. Now, lunch time is usually scheduled as necessary (due to one person covering another person’s lunch, etc.).

  23. StrangeOne:

    I know of numerous companies that are extremely picky about the time allowed for breaks. You actually have to clock out then back in and ensure that you do not go over your allotted time otherwise you are gone. The breaks are paid for but this is how they track the time you are spending on breaks.

  24. Thanks Aafke.
    Wendy, yes you are right, smoke break in most companies in Canada are no longer allowed. But how many people really abide to this rule?
    Malaysian’s observed the same rules (we too have a no smoking policy in public) but I still see workers taking breaks to light up, even managers etc. It is a disgusting habit and a complete waste of time (not even once a day). I think Muslims can pray during lunch hour after all, that is the only time required to pray (dhuhr) while at work. Pertaining to lack of tolerance, education is key.

  25. Carol, I think you answered your own question by highlighting the CEVA Logistics case! Seriously, one of the reasons so many non-Muslims have a problem with Muslims is their insistence on being handled with kidd gloves – and the implied threat that if they’re not, hell with rain down in any number of well-known ways.

    Here’s a case of nine fellows who wanted to pray “on time” which meant roughly 12:50 pm and 4:40 pm at this time of year. Great. But, we all know these prayers don’t last five minutes, especially during Ramadan – closer to 10, and that doesn’t include all the prep work OR the cleaning up of the bathroom after the prep work.

    So let’s estimate 15 minutes each time – that’s 30 minutes they’re getting off work every day in the name of “religion”. Simple math says each guy was missing 2 1/2 hours of work each week or 10 hours a month or 120 hours a year. Multiply that by nine guys and suddenly the picture of why these guys were fired becomes pretty clear! It wasn’t about the praying, it was about the not working and still wanting to be paid. About special treatment.

    Sometimes tolerance and fear have nothing to do with it. Yet they remain the easy, comfortable and politically correct answers.

  26. I agree with SGIME completely … my sentiments exactly!!!

  27. Mrs. B, not to argue the point but I live in this country and smoke breaks are very rare. There’s no place for people to smoke in most companies and people can’t smoke outside a public building unless they are very far away. However this has nothing to do with prayer.

  28. Keller’s arguments about evolution are simply wrong. People don’t believe in evolution in the way people believe in creation. People are led to evolution by evidence. Given the Keller doesn’t define what his terms he can get away with this careless argument. The are creationists who believe in a young earth. that is clearly and easily disproved by any reading of geology or astronomy. Evolution itself is more complicated. Some believers accept evolution but put a god as the creator/instigator. Functionally those people believe in evolution in a manner no different than biologists.

  29. Higgs-Boson.

  30. There are all kinds of people , people who take advantage of the system, people who don’t , people who want attention andthose that do good without seeking attention. Can’t say an entire group of people following a religion have to be blamed based on a few.

    We have quite a few physicians who are muslims. some practise openly sonme don’t we also have a few assistants who are muslim. one lady causes mayhem wherever she goes. Has issues with everything that doesn’t accomodate her religion. By nature of work we cannot take breaks as and when we please. unfortunately we are on a schedule set by forces outside our control. when patients ar eint he room, you see them. not go off on 10 min breaks.. and you take breaks when there is no one waiting. most of them i know dont have the luxury of praying 3 times at work, just because if they are in the middle of rounding and the clock strikes you can’t take off …yet they manage to be pious, respectful and religious ind. they seem to have no conflicts with the religion and job. now coming to the lady …she now wants to be accomodated specially, well we are short and i don’t really care if you are fasting , many of us are starving too on especially busy days, days when tending to some pain seems more imp than grabbing lunch.. and yet we seem to not fade away. and no you cannot take off for prayers when i’m in the middle of something and need your assistance, it MUST wait for 30min.

    It bothers me that she is pushing a very personal agenda and ruining the name of her religion , the very same religion which my husband and quite a few of them seem to be able to deal with… why do some people need to be treated specially???

    In my mind – although i don’t have the power to act on it, i’d rather just let her go, she’s not that critical to the flow , easily replacable and is more trouble than worth …but again i cannot say or do that in public can i…so me and many of my collegues hands are tied 🙂 and life goes on.

  31. hi. i think 9/11 has a lot to do with intolerance and fear of muslims here. also, the wars in irak and afghanistan. Before that, there was not much of that fear and intolerance. i read it somewhere that it is only a tiny number of islamic extremists (400 million or so) who are carrying out terrorist acts around the world. if it were christians or jews, there will be the same intolerance and fear about them. it’s sad that we tend to stereotype an entire population based on the actions of a few nutters.

    @abe, i think you are a diamond but as someone else said somewhere else, you are rough on the edges. so polish your rough spots and restrain yourselves when writing. i do learn a lot from what you write as i learn a lot from others also.

    i wanna say also that people should be able to freely express their ideas, whether good or bad or indifferent. the purpose ought not to be to shut-out any discussion perceived as “bad” and only concentrate on the “good”. otherwise how are we gonna learn about both sides of an issue.

  32. (Are) non-Muslims are simply intolerant of a different faith or it is fear?

    Perhaps better words would be ‘dislike’ and ‘distrust’ – dislike of an ideology that teaches hate and violence (and discrimination against non-Muslims) and distrust of the motives and morals of a people that refuses to be honest about what Islam teaches and what they do everywhere they dominate.

    Perhaps our Muslim friends here would care to tell us what is unreasonable about disliking people that 1. bow to a god (or, alternatively, an old rock) who has a taste for barbaric torture for simple ‘unbelief’, 2. that love a man that committed hundreds of vile crimes (according to Islam’s own writings, and even so consider him a great moral example), 3. that persecute others wherever they dominate and — worst of all — 4. are totally unwilling to talk about these things. Muslims act as if any negative opinion about them and their religion is the product of pure fantasy and bigotry, rather than logic and common sense.

  33. I’ve talked about all of these things till I’m blue in the face. What you don’t seem to realize is that what YOU think Islam teaches and what I and others think Islam teach are two different things.

    The only “version” of Islam you acknowledge is the same one intolerant terrorists espouse. And it embraces the same sources and interpretations they do. And that’s fine as far as it goes. I dislike, distrust and am frightened of them too.(after all- they mostly kill/oppress fellow muslims)It’s just we’re not all like that. I also believe every religious government I can think of has failed the test- and so secular governments are better- or at least have a better chance at being better.

    And no, I don’t have time right now to go all through it again. I know you can present a bunch of evidence to support your views. Just know, it simply is not what all Muslims believe and follow.

  34. Sandy, I would like to here the difference. I have asked in the past.

    Now I would like to know how many muslims you know who practice differently as you live in Saudi and it is Wahabbi/salafist and the spinoffs that I absolutely oppose, have no use for and have no intention of respecting as they are an offense to humanity in every aspect from gender apartheid, slavery, discrimination, etc.

    That stated how is it that you justify certain passages as a woman that clearly intend to place you in a position of a juvenile or a commodity according to passages within the Koran.

    Next I would like to know if you are a quranist or if you hold the hadith in some regard as authoritian. I understand for the most part you are opposed to the hadith but to what extent, completely? partially? slightly?

    Seriously I am quite interested in your perspective and have always been as I have a great deal of respect for you just based on your posts and your solid stand to being an independent freedom loving woman. Which quite frankly I do admire that in you especially given where you have lived for a number of years.

  35. @Bigstick
    First thank you for your kind remarks. I have addressed most of these points many times already- I’ll add I am not exactly a “pure” Quranist- but pretty close. I think context counts with hadith- and part of that context is acknowledging that a 200 year game of telephone is a large part of that context. I’ll also add, that to me the Quran is partly contextual itself. And sometimes it is merely relaying what happened which isn’t the same thing as endorsing something.

    I’ll only add- education is the key here. People who are well educated generally view everything differently. They understand better what constitutes “proof” and what is “belief”, and how history and circumstances effect things and what logical thinking is about. It just changes the lens through which they observe things.

  36. MrsBawazir, People like Abe should visit peaceful country like Malaysia by going out of 4 walls and stop hatemongering. period.


    I am pained to see so much intolerance in this world. .. be it Saudi or US.. yesterday a Sikh temple was attacked with deadly weapons in US thinking that they are Muslims.. Today a Mosque burnt down .. Unfortunately these people are peace lovers not terrorists..

  37. Azad yes I have read the news about the Sikh shooting in Wisconsin. The shooter was described to have a 9 11 tattoo on his arm. And the FBI have found , after combing through his house, that the dead shooter was a leader of a white supremist metal band and an army veteran.the shooter thought the Sikhs were Muslims (thanks to caricatures of Prophet peace be upon him wearing turbans with bombs attached etc) and this is clearly a sick sign of dangerous lethal intolerance. The shooter is definetly responsible but this is the result of hate-mongering medias that causes Islamophobia to be wide spread. Seeing as how ppl make up websites such as etc, no wonder there is so much hatred an intolerance towards Muslims. It is a tragic to say the least. This does not mean violence that is misdirect is justified. However I must commend Lt Brian Murphy the first officer to arrive at the scene and shot 9 times for being such a brave honorable man for trying to save the victims and even refusing help from his collegues, instead telling them to help the victims. A hero indeed!

  38. Sandy:

    Thank you for responding, however, I would like to know more from your prespective particular on why you chose this religion and how you feel about 4:34 and the whole women are awrah and must cover completely. Also how do you justify the whole Adam/Eve story as it relates to a woman (since the rib portion is in the hadith and as far as I am aware Eve is never mentioned in the Koran) and the fact that man was created to be the maintainers of women. I am just curious about your philosophy and how you justify it from you perspective.

    I would also like to know about your prespective of a man having 4 wives and as many slaves as he wishes. I have read several Islamic websites here in the US where they are actually telling men that it is okay to lie to their wife and deceive them about having other wives. In some parts of the US muslim men are leaving a string of wives and children behind due to Nikah but no civil marriages. All the while they are lying to everyone of their wives and state they have the right to do so as a wife does not have the right to say, “no.” She is considered jealous or not a good muslim (which is total bullshit in my book).

    Next, what muslims have the same opinion as you particular since you live in Saudi —- the home of the extremes.

  39. @bigstick1,

    You should see things in context and when and on what circumstances a particular verses was revealed.

    Quran doesnt say whole women are awrah. Quran says first men to wear modestly, and lower gaze then later verses says women to wear modestly. Hope, you are aware that men in Arab covers head to toe.

    4.34 says men are protectors of women, its a father’s responsibility to protect & care his daughter, its husband’s responsibility to protect& care his wife, its son’s responsibility to protect his mother& care when she is old but not send to old age home and dying alone when she brought his son up. It doesnt mean that women can not work. She can work but whatever she earns is hers but husband is responsible to pay utility bills, to buy her makeup products, kid’s school fees, daily food, dresses and every other halal things required. Husband should not transfer all these daily responsibility to his wife/mother/daughter and share bills when they eat in restaurant as we see in many couples. I will be happy if there is some1 to take care of my bread and butter, arrange home, car when required for whole my life and I never need to work and earn a single penny..specially in this economy crash.

    Further Ayah in Quran says if any immorality from wife side, 1) advise/talk with kindness ..which is mandatory first option and give time and keep talking/advising, 2) seperate bed if first option fails and give time, 3) Tab (daraba in Arabic) her as sign of admonish but not to hurt her, not to cause even bruise or any kind of mark if first 2 options fails.

    When all options fails,scholar says that husband can tab his wife with TOOTH BRUSH. It was just to protect weaker gender- women from the exploitation of stronger gender-men while during the time Jahiliay Arab women were beaten to death for any matter, were instantly divorced without proper reason. There is whole story/reason/context of this verse, I wont go in details.

    It should not nullifies many verses which order men to treat women kindly and not to beat wife in both Hadith and Quran.Mentioning a ver FEW among hundreds of verses which orders men to treat women kindly. In Islam,A man shud keep his wife as queen and a woman shuld treat her husband as king.

    In Abu-Dawud, Ibn Ma’jah, Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said -“Men who beat their wives are not best amonst u”

    Hadith in Tirmidhi prophet(PBUH) said -“The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behavior, and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.”

    Allah’s Apostle said, “You will be rewarded for whatever you spend for Allah’s sake even if it were a morsel which you put in your WIFE’s mouth. “sahih Bukhari, vol1,book2,hadith53

  40. Regarding mentioning Eve,
    Jesus PBUH is mentioned 25 times in quran while Mohamed SAW only 4, Mary 34 times, Mohamed’s mother zero Mohamed’s wives Zero. There is a whole chapter for Mary, one of the longest chapter for the family of Jesus ( Christians, we are not the Enemy) in Quran.Quran also doenst mention whole 124000 prophets’s name one by one. Quran was sent as book of humanity and mentions only those important matters and names but its not wikipedia. As per Islam Jesus & Muhammad (PBUT) are brothers in faith.

  41. Abraham’ sons:
    Ishaq and Ismail to dominate the world and TO PROMOTE MONOTHEISM

  42. *My post on polygamy is not coming up

  43. Bigstick,
    I really don’t have time or inclination- nor do I have relevant issues before me. But first of all the whole “rib” thing is borrowed from Christianity.
    The Quran only says to be modest- the only specific dirctive on clothing is to covers one cleavage.
    Men “have a degree of advantage” over women. This is just a fact. The purpose of the verse is that men have an obligation, as much as possible to mitigate that and support their women- not to subject them. Case in point. My husband saw to it that all his sisters mother etc. learned how to drive. He cannot change the law- but he has them ready. He felt this as an obligation because of the advantage he had- not do to merit but simply because he does have the advantage.

    The most common translation of “daraba” is not to hit. But to strike out on a different path. So which meaning do you think makes more sense? If one assumes a just God (which as a believer I do) it obviously means to strike out on a different path. Hitting your wife to shame her is not the stuff of healthy marriages.
    I think all the toothbrush crap is simply that. Crap.

    The Quran clearly puts polygamy in the context of war and widows and orphans. Frankly I don’t care who marries who as long as all are consenting adults. I’m a big believer in “mind your own business” But I don’t believe a lot of the polygamy in the Islamic community is religiously valid, and certainly not legally valid in many locations.

    I can control what other muslims do or say or how they practice. Much in the same way Christians couldn’t control the Apartheid government of South Africa or the Westboro Church in the US. Awful people will do what they do.

    I have met others who share all my views. I definately tend to be on the more liberal side of understanding of things. I mean really. An All powerful All knowing God who is the most beneficent and most merciful has to be better than how many people portray him.

  44. Azad:

    I am familar with your description. I would say it is insulting to women in general and ensures they are treated as minors and men craft a society that imprisons them. Protecting rights is one thing but disabling them is another. You analysis is disabling.

    Thank you Sandy, however I would state that the only degree that men have over women might be strength. Now do you think women have a degree of advantage over men? Think about it.

  45. @Bigstick. I agree. And I think that, in the end, brute strength has given a degree of advantage of men over women. Really- at the end of the day that’s what the control comes down to. It’s primitive, but there it is.
    I think women do have degrees of advantage- but they can usually be obstructed by brute force.

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