Saudi Arabia/GCC/Muslim World: Where do We go from Here?

There is a new movement of fanaticism and terrorism now that is spreading.  We should all be concerned.

America is a democracy and as such allows for the freedom of expression and speech.  That is a special gift which is easy to use in the wrong way.  Yet it is part of America and can’t be denied.

This freedom has been used to produce a film about Islam and its Prophet.  Not necessarily a wise decision of freedom and no doubt ramifications of the actions were not thought through.

As a result, bridges between Muslims, those of other faiths and especially Americans are falling down in front of our eyes.  There is little tolerance for Americans and American citizens are now at a high threat of risk abroad.

Those who are Muslim and of Middle Eastern or Southeast Asian heritage are also at risk within America.  Rather than try to rebuild bridges, too many Americans are wanting to lash back over the violence and deaths in Egypt and Libya.

How do we get back on track to building bridges?  Can we?  Everyone will have to dig down deep to recapture tolerance.  We can’t allow those without any common sense or those who want to be destructive take the rest of us down.

Thus far there have not been reports of unrest or threats against Americans in Saudi Arabia.  This gives hope to the depth of relationship between the two countries.

This is a time for people to be vigilant and aware.  If you are an American abroad, know your situational awareness.  Do not draw attention to yourself.  The same applies for expatriates or foreign students from the GCC region in America.  They, too, need to be aware that emotions are high and there are crazy people who wish to lash out and hurt.

For those who have the call in their hearts, reach out to one another.  Show solidarity and support for tolerance.

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459 Responses

  1. I agree completely. I am an American woman who lives (alone) in Salalah, where I opened a small branch of my company. I am usually pretty aware of the fact that I represent a different side of the US, as most peoples experience of America is from those car crash movies or the news. So generally I try to be sweet to people and minimize those habits that are normal for a New Yorker but anathema in Oman.
    Lately I’ve noticed a different, subtle feeling in the air. It feels like a shift and I hope it’s temporary. No one says anything, of course. And most people are still happy to see me. But of course, they are–I’m smiling and handing out ice cream, or something like that.

    What freaks me out a bit is the huge gap in how Americans and Omanis perceive the other. Everyone sees the world through their own eyes, with their own filters and own values, own religion and own enculturation. So we have this idiocy where so many Americans can’t understand even the basic cause and effect of their actions. Likewise, I’m constantly surprised at the assumptions people here make, about Americans. I’m shocked in fact.

    What Americans seem to think is a “Freedom of Speech” question that they “have the right” to trumpet, is locally perceived as not only a slap in the face insult, but the latest in a long long line of them. And of course it is, even though it might not be intended that way. But it looks like it was intended that way! Publishing these cartoons or movies, or anything like this is inciting violence. It most certainly is only that. The intended audience is Muslim, for sure. No one else will pay attention. So it is exactly a slap-in-the-face insult. And that is the point of it.

    I am convinced most Americans, including many who live in Gulf, are genuinely puzzled about the rage we face now in greater and greater waves. As Americans we react quickly, usually violently (in words if not in deeds,) don’t think very critically, and forget immediately. Here it’s the opposite.

    The trouble escalates when you find people, common in all cultures, who think violence is an answer, that violence will solve something, that violence will make something ok, when it never does, not when Americans do it, not when Arabs do it. Everyone loses, every time. Guaranteed.

    As I began with, I live here in this town, alone. Most of my relationships are with Omanis. It can be very difficult, as this difference in perceptions is something no one will explain to you–you’ve got to figure it out for yourself. It’s never helpful to blame or shame someone, even though, to me, the American, it might be my gut reaction to take offense, to get angry, to assume the worst. Over the years I’ve realized you’ve got to check in with yourself, first. Quite often my perceptions are completely off. Usually, in fact. I may think I understand something, but I probably don’t.

    I don’t know if there is a way out of this mess, but I guarantee it won’t be via violence, arguments, or blame. What everyone seems to forget is that even though we are massively different culturally, etc, we are still all humans, and we tick along in the same way. We love, we fear, we enjoy a good joke, we feel vengeful, our egos can be stroked, we perform kindnesses, and we do things for complex reasons. None of us are simple creatures.

    Since I am an American, I can and must criticize my own culture–it’s mine, the one that molded me. Perhaps if, instead of pointing fingers, blaming and insulting each other, we can ask ourselves how we can improve, how we can be better citizens of the planet, and how we can set a good example of those ideals we ostensibly hold dear. Is it too much to ask? Maybe.

  2. I can say only 3 things. stuff we say to kids all the time now apparently adults need this.

    1. Use your words not your hands . Murder and violence will get you NOTHING ( definetly will not get people to stop watching the film)

    2. religion between yourself and god, critisize it, praise it, preach it, whatever in the confines of your home. I don’t need to know your beliefs and you don’t need to know mine.

    3. Think of other as fellow HUMANS, existing on the same planet. realize that you have nowhere else to go. mars and moon is not available yet. so get along. It’s not hard. avoid those whom you don’t like and ignore them , be with people who you like and make you happy. and mainly ignore the idiots who try to incite.

    now one might think how hard is this to implement.. I’m not talking living together, people can’t seem to work for 12 hrs together without hostility and bringing useless factors like religion, nationality, culture into the mix. come help patients, learn, do your work and leave….

    Why is this so hard, here we are 2 individuals of different nationalities, diff religion living happily for the past 2+ decades no conflict . the key – keep your beliefs to yourself, respect the other and their opinions.

    Especially in this current climate i get more and more of how come youa re married to a muslim and not one.. i used to get this long ago too but certainly not in the negative way as i do now. People are more judgemental and seem to want us to follow their way.
    so i tell people , yes we are selective in what we follow. yes F is a muslim and a picky one, yes he picks from the koran as he pleases and ignores what he thinks is not right, yes i’m a picky hindu, i pick pieces that i thinka re correct adn ignore the others. and no God hasnn’t struck us with lightning yet and no we don’t think of heaven or hell. for some reason we seem to have a very healthy, happy and comfortable life… maybe it’s the good karma of slogging at work, treating people 🙂 hey have to give some praise for the profession.

  3. Its quite simple actually.

    1. Use your works not your hands ( violence is never the answer)
    2. religion and way of life is between you and gid. keep it that way . critique, criticise, agree, disagree,preach,praise within the confines of your home. I don’t need ot hear about how you have the best religiona nd neither do i have to preach about mine. if i’m going to hell that’s my business.
    3. Accept that we have to co-exist, we are all HUMANS first and have only 1 planet, so we have no choice but to live together. no amount of yelling, insylting, screaming etc., will change another persons mind or get him to leave ( there is no where but earth to go to ) :_)

    You won’t believe how many times i hear about how can a muslim and hindu be married in my daily life. and how many accusations about how my husband cannot be a true muslim from people. yes he’s picky , he has a brain and uses it, yes i pick out of my religion too. no we don’t try to save the other, we have a deal to live an dlove each other inthis life, each to his own heaven or hell. and yes we have a very loving,passionate, happy marriage ( if you discount the angst the kids bring upon us) if you people with diff cultures can co-exist in each others pocket , i can’t see why diff countries miles apart cannot get along…

  4. In the United Staes the idea of mocking a religion or a religious belief is considered OK. Freedom of speech in the United Staes is taken for granted where in other parts of the world the idea of freedom of speech is a nothing but a foreign concept. I do believe that some people will use any excuse to incite violence because in many of the countries where these outbreaks have taken place there is either a new government looking to establish itself and those who want something different. i also believe that just as it is in the USA there are those who are living in hardship and want to blame anyone or anything else for their problems, and there will always be someone to take advatage of anything to advance their cause.

  5. Right now I think France is trying to ignite a global religious war!

  6. The Hezbollah leader said every country in the world should should have laws forbidding anyone to speak or do anything to insult prophets of all religions so this kind of thing would not happen.

    I’m sorry but outside of Muslim countries you can have all the laws in the world and people will still do these things. Apart from that freedom of speech needs to be the standard, not muzzled speech. Why should be bow to the bullies who kill innocents who had nothing to do with the ‘slander’? We should not and can not. It is the bullies who have committed the crime and who need to be severely punished.

    It’s all fine and good for me to say that but what do Muslims think?

  7. Dear bedu
    I should admit your comment which France gov. too, is fueling this derogatory actions against the prophet(sawas)

  8. My frustration comes from the lack of common sense. I believe in freedom of speech but not at the cost of violence and unrest.

  9. Carol, listen to the guy in the above YouTube clip. It’s less than 5 minutes. I think he has an amazing attitude, and speaks a lot of truth if only people would listen. (And he credits ‘we’ with spreading the video that had formerly been seen by “thirty people.” So I blame extremist Muslims for the wonderful advertising. If it were so problematic to portray the prophet, don’t SHARE STUFF that does this!)

  10. America didn’t decide to make that film – an individual resident of the US did. Not sure if he is an American citizen; he was born in the Middle East (Egypt, apparently).

    France did not publish those cartoons – a French newspaper did.

    However, if one accepts the logic that you can blame an entire country for the actions of a couple of its citizens, one could say some pretty nasty things about any country, including Saudi Arabia.

  11. Now doesn’t he make sense!!! Thanks for posting Susanne!

  12. The idea is try to defuse the terrible situation. Isn’t it? That means free speech or not, you post stuff like this movie or those cartoons right now, you are looking for the reaction. Sure.

    Yes, we have free speech. Yes, it’s our right.
    But does that mean you should throw gasoline on the fire? Just to prove a point like the French are doing? Is it really necessary?

    Lots of people are really pissed off and I think it’s more than the video.

    Remember, not all, or even most, of the offended people are being violent. For most of them, it’s just another brick in the wall of enmity to the west.

    I think a lot of (American) people don’t care how we (Americans) are perceived in the world. They just want to be even stronger, or scarier, or whatever. That’s too bad. (and no, that’s not directed at anyone.)

    But I think it’s our duty, as the strongest (still) country, to try to make peace where we can. There is nothing to fear from genuinely trying to stop the landslide into a divided world.

    We wasted the opportunity after September 11, it’s true. We had the world’s sympathy, and things could have turned out differently for much of the planet. Now look at us.

    Personally, I think the Bush administration nearly destroyed the United States and I would like to see all the key players on trial. The Obama administration, although better, has continued with lots of things like drone attacks all over this area.

    So we can rain indiscriminate, even impersonal, death upon the populations of Yemen and Pakistan, and expect there to be no consequences? Yes, it’s the same subject. I don’t know what people in the US are thinking about these drones. But does the occasional killing of an Al-Qaeda operative outweigh the disaster of killing a wedding party, or 9 women? How much hatred, resentment and enmity to we earn per dead civilian? We apologize and somehow think that makes it better?

    My point is that there is a ton of crap going on–it’s not just one thing, it’s not just this movie. If we want to stop the further deterioration of US standing in the world, we need to pay attention to our actions, and make an honest effort.

    Generosity of spirit doesn’t make you weak.

  13. Religions do not have a special right to not be mocked or insulted, so to speak. It is open to ridicule just like everything else in life. So many Muslims from various parts of the world do not need cartoons or a video to erupt into violence…they just need a thought or belief contrary to their own. At what point do we say, ok no matter what we say or do, if it doesn’t jibe with Islam is Peace, we are in for some violence? It’s time to stop tiptoeing around these poor excuses for men, much less Muslims, and do what should have been done long ago to desensitize extreme muslims like this…flood the world with cartoons, videos, teddy bears, what have you…they can’t kill everyone. Can they? Eventually they will either learn to deal with it or solidify the concept that Islam is not peace…it’s whatever the hell Muslims say it is…or show it to be. At this point in time the world is being held in a hostage like scenario waiting for the next Muslim show of outrage. All I want to know is…what the hell gives you the right to force the rest of us to bow to your idea of proper respect and awe of just one more hypocritical man made full of B.S. so called direct message from god? Get the hell over yourself already…

  14. I whole heartedly condemn the killing of US ambassador & other innocent citizens & destruction of property in Libya by arrogant, armed, so called Muslim, gangs. There is right to protest in peaceful way but no one has the right to kill innocents. At the same time, I condemn the making of such senseless movie with fake/baseless story, cartoon time and again in the name of freedom of expression to hurt the sentiments of 1.67 billion Muslims around the world & create hatred & violence. Makers of such movie/cartoon are all aware of such violent consequences & they dont want peace in this world. By reacting in such nasty way by handful of Muslims, their purpose is fulfilled & their such nasty/senseless movie/cartoon are publicized. All credit goes to these arrogant, armed Muslim gangs, otherwise no one will know such movie/cartoon. Embassies can be re-built but these few so called, handful of Muslims maligned the image of 1.67 billion & this image can not be re-built.

    There is nothing to do with the movie and US. Movie was made by some crooks whose main purpose is to provoke Muslims around the world then create violence & again prove that Muslims are of violent mentality, thats what happend. What can be the purpose of such movie/cartoon? But Of course I am shocked to know how they spent $5 million for such crap movie and from where they got. U armed so called idiot Muslims are well aware that killing innocents, harming property is against humanity and is completely forbidden in Islam. Then how can we say that these few hundred armed gangs who malign the image of 1.6 billion Muslims are really following Islam? They are not protectors of Islam or Muslims but they are not diffrent from the one who made such movie/cartoon. Let’s not forget this Islam says abt Humanity – Killing an innocent life is same as killing whole humanity and saving 1 life is same as saving whole humanity. So if we love Islam and Allah, lets not forget this:

    “If anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind.”(Quran – 5:32)

    Injustice should be be brought to justice with justice but not by another injustice & violence.

  15. As much as I hate the violence I do not want anybody to be held hostage and be denied freedom of speech by ignorant people. NOBODY has the right to kill innocent people and actually I am tired of hearing about Muslims and their hurt feelings. The only person who in actuality could have had hurt feelings by this is the prophet himself. Because Muslims are taught to fear speaking out or having a free thought about the Quran or the prophet seemingly from before birth this kind of stuff happens. I realize you are saying this violence is awful but do not put a ‘BUT’ along with it.

  16. Why is it that people keep going on about freedom of speech, but Muslims can’t protest or discuss the insulting video without people saying “Those darn Muslims are pissed off again!” ? People have a right to be upset. Although that does not give people the right to have been the cause of a man’s death -that IS wrong and uncalled for- but hasn’t anyone heard of Mob Mentality?! If you’ve already
    Got a bunch of people angry its no surprise they’re going to get a little crazier, and in this case they got out of hand in Egypt and especially in Libya.

    Also, a few thousand people protesting and acting crazy in the streets does not equal over a billion Muslims. The Western media is acting like millions of people in every Muslim country are in a rage out on the streets looking for blood. It’s been completely quiet here in UAE and other gulf countries. The grand mufti in KSA even told Muslims to basically ignore the movie and insults.

  17. And I’m not excusing the antics by saying it is Mob Mentality, just that I feel it’s a valid explanation.

  18. Amal, what the developed world understands to mean ”protest”, is something like a strongly worded letter to The Times.
    Not running around in mobs, arbitrarily killing innocent people, pillaging and arson.
    It is amazing though that this happens every time some people pick out one of the many negative, or stupid, or tepid criticism of Islam, the religion whose god cannot manage her own affairs, and stages large scale murder and mayhem, even in, or especially in, countries which otherwise do not allow protest gatherings.

    If you think those large mobs are a tiny minorty, then why do we never see peaceful demonstrations of all the nice Muslims protesting those ridiculous murder and mayhem ”protests”? Why don’t they go out in the streets and stop these murderous loonies? As long as that doesn’t happen it seems all Muslims tacitly agree with the mobs.
    You cannot blame other people for looking at these mobs, and virtually no protests against the destruction killings etc. and then think this is a typically Muslim thing.

    Do’t whine here, go out and stop these crazy nutters.

    Or stand up in the Mosque tomorrow and give a speech about how evil these people are and how you all should put an end to it.

    And please tell us all about it when you’ve done it.

  19. Anon made a very good comment

  20. And there is more than enough insulting stuff published in Muslim states, against Americans, Christians, jews… Come on! Saudi textbooks teach little children that Christian and Jews are monkeys and apes. The Cartoons in Arab newspapers are straight from the Nazi archives.
    The way women and children are treated in islam and Muslim countries makes me sick, seeing women on the streets who are to have every hair and every inch of ”sinful flesh” covered is an insult to every woman on the planet!
    So apparently we have the right now to go on the streets and kill all Arab or Muslim looking people? Burn all Muslim shops? Burn all Mosques?
    But we (rational civilized people) don’t, so why is that?

  21. Amal, nobody has said that Muslims can’t protest…it is when those protests turn violent that we start pointing a finger. I find it completely hypocritical that those same Muslims that get so bent out of shape over a video or cartoon enough to kill for it, can’t feel that same sort of outrage over their own corrupt govts or how their own religious leaders have corrupted Islam. And the fact that you called it antics is par for the course.

    And who gives a crap if Muslims are pissed off AGAIN…people get pissed off all the damn time…get over it without shedding blood AGAIN.

  22. Why can’t Muslims just say, well that was a work of fiction…who cares what it says? When they can do that then we can talk about Islam being peaceful.

  23. Coolred, that’s why we have ”draw mohammed day”, everybody on the internet draws Mohammed and publishes the drawing. Try to get at all these thousands of people!

    Anyway, all this silly ”respect for religions” needs to end. Religions don’t deserve respect. Religions are the root of evil. Religious people deserve to have their religions ridiculed, you should be allowed to believe whatever primitive silly ancient backward myths you want, but you should also deal with having it pointed out to you how silly and irrational you are. And people who claim to be ”people of faith” should never be put in responsible positions.
    Especially not president of America.

    Any holy book of any religion which is laced with endorsements of slavery, misogyny, murder and genocide, incitements to hate and murder, (like the bible and the quran), should be ridiculed all the time. the bible and quran are immoral evil books and ridiculing them is minimal considering the wicked sins they endorse.

  24. Aafke, people going out in the streets and such is also protesting. People do it all over the world, and it’s a valid form of protest. Minus when it turns into violence…

    And also, people in Libya HAVE come out into the streets with signs and just speaking and saying the killing was wrong and apologizing. The pics have been going around online. Such hateful Muslims huh? Even the Grand Mufti of KSA condemned the attack and violence. And we all know how conservative KSA is…
    Muslims online have even spoken out against the violence while still condemning the video.

  25. Coolred, they have. Haven’t you seen what has happened in the past year in Egypt and Libya?
    The Arab Spring?

    And I just used antics, I wasn’t trying to make some hidden statement.

  26. I find it funny how it makes you “sick” to see Muslim women covered. That makes for a poor feminist, especially as feminism is all about choice.

    And you can stop saying things like “sinful flesh”. It’s quite ridiculous. Have you been to an Arab country?! Have you seen what women in Lebanon, Egypt, UAE, and many other places wear out in public? Mini skirts and short dresses! Just like in the West, what a concept! You’re such an Orientalist. Viewing others as savages and in dire need to be “civilized”.

    Do you know who the biggest Arab singer is in the Middle East? Haifa Wehbe. Please Google her and tell me how a Muslim women can wear such clothes in public and have such music videos and be a top star who continues to sell millions of records?? And live in the Middle East.
    I think that is proof enough people love her and don’t care how she dresses!
    And there are many other stars like her, so….

  27. I just wrote a long comment and it disappeared. 😦

    Sorry, spam is eating comments again, I took the comments I could find out again.

  28. Amal, nobody says that Muslims cannot protest, but there is a very big difference between protesting and being a mob that destroys property and kills people. In the United States you are arrested and put in jail if you destroy property when you protest and you will go to jail for murder. Since when do we as members of the human race use religion (in mondern times) as a means to justfy inexcusable behavior, and murder. Perhaps those who take offense should look to themselves to find the true disrespect for the religion they profess to love and admire.

  29. Amal:

    The Grand POOHbah in Saudi is the one that stated to destroy churches, so excuse me if I don’t trust anything that comes of his mouth. Next there is a caveat to his speaking against violence and that is blaspemy laws or curtailing speech to suit his version of Islam. I wouldn’t call his statement anything other than a ploy. There is no real condemnation from him unless there are strings attached.

  30. Please look at these images 🙂

  31. Amal, nobody cares if Muslims protest. Stand in the streets, wave flags, scream and yell all you want. Good on you. Killing … no, that is not okay and is not a protest, it’s murder. Please, please go out and express your freedom to speak out against whoever you want to. Don’t kill innocents and don’t blame a country for the actions of a few.

  32. Uhh, Wendy, I did not kill anyone nor did I condone it, ok? In fact I said it was wrong, just as a lot of Muslims have. If you look at the images I posted you will see how Libyans took to
    the streets to condemn the killing. Muslims know it was not right!

  33. I think freedom is a great gift but one that must be used wisely. In addition to inciting the Muslim world those associated with the film are now under threats. Myself, I do not have much sympathy for the producer or anyone associated with the film as it’s clear they did not consider or did not care of the consequences.

    Above being said, I am saddened how many in the Muslim world are blaming and calling America the enemy. I am an American and did not make the movie. I’d never support such a movie.

    I agree that Muslims are certainly free to protest against the film but not with the mob mentality of violence. Peaceful protests would get the point across. Violence and death of innocents does nothing to promote peace or tolerance.

  34. When people speak of America they mean the government. And when you look at the past concerning the US in the Muslim world, and now what seems to many as just another slap in the face by America , it is easy to see why people are very frustrated with the American government. And I do think people atleast in the ME blame the US because they dont understand the concept of why this film was not blocked or why it is allowed and people are actually saying “This is free speech, screw the Muslims” and supporting it.

  35. Ufff are we still at it again? Carol says it best – lack of common sense. I believe in freedom of speech but not at the cost of violence and unrest. Certainly only an ignorant idiot who has no care for consequences would have abused the freedom of speech rights. Everybody has rights, but to abuse your rights knowing the negative outcome it can bring is just irresponsible. Trygve, you are dead on when you said “What Americans seem to think is a “Freedom of Speech” question that they “have the right” to trumpet, is locally perceived as not only a slap in the face insult, but the latest in a long long line of them. And of course it is, even though it might not be intended that way. But it looks like it was intended that way! Publishing these cartoons or movies, or anything like this is inciting violence. It most certainly is only that. The intended audience is Muslim, for sure. No one else will pay attention. So it is exactly a slap-in-the-face insult. And that is the point of it.”

    I am not supporting the violence done by certain Muslims but it saddens me to actually see some here supporting so call freedom of speech regardless if it insults someone, now that is appalling and the basic common sense and good behaviour is definitely missing.

  36. Amal is that you from UAE? if you’re the Amal I know than I must say, you are an American so you do know all the rights about freedom of speech yet at your young age, you know with rights comes responsibilities. Good for you! And did someone really said that they were sick to see the way a Muslim lady dress? Uff such ignorant prejudice in such an open world.

  37. Mrs. B:

    Most religions insult humans. So if you stop this speech can we agree to stop religous speech that insults humanity and advocates a great deal of hate.

    When religious people stop talking about their religion and keep the insanity out of the public and to themselves then the rest of us will stop talking about the hate texts. Maybe I can stop hearing from clerics that churches need to be destroyed, or apostates need to be killed or witches killed or women are outside sexual organs or women are meat and men cats or humanity sinned or the God/Allah who invented alleged heaven and hell who like to torture humans to allow the cat house in the sky as the whole purpose of man is to have a perpetual hard on, sex, food, and glutton. What a damn insult.

    Religion debases man to a mere sex object full of sin when we are so much more. We are explorers, adventurous, thinkers,compassionate difficult, curious, flexible, caring, spontaneous, feeling, seekers, lovers, parents, children, adults, happy, sad, entertaining, questioning, adaptable, pliable and more. Religion has tainted us and reduced humanity to lustful sex object sinners who are weak beasts which are childlike idiots. Funny how many religious reduce everything down to sex, cloth to cover the parts that make you think sex and then punishment for saying I have a penis you have a vagina. Instead religion is more like I am a penis and your are a vagina.

    The rest is about how to control, keep people in line through abuse be in domestic or child. Sure you can find some nice parts in religion but none of that will take away from the damage, backwardness, or hate that it creates otherwise.

  38. Azah:

    “If anyone slew a person—unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land—it would be as if he slew the whole mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind.”(Quran – 5:32)

    Now define mischief? Exceptionally subjective leaves an enormous realm for abuse.

  39. Definition of mischief according to dictionary.reference.com is harm or trouble especially as a result of an agent or cause/ an injury or evil caused by a person or other agent or cause.

    In Islam, it pretty much shares the same definition so spare your agenda please.

  40. Carol, the murder of the American ambassador was a tragedy and was perpetuated by Al Qaeda, not Libyans. In fact from the picture in the link i posted below, you can see protest of his murder by Muslim Libyans. And I think this link is an essential piece to be read http://www.religionnews.com/blogs/omid-safi/12-essential-points-about-the-offensive-film-on-the-prophet-muhammad-and-th

  41. Religion debases man to a mere sex object full of sin when we are so much more. We are explorers, adventurous, thinkers,compassionate difficult, curious, flexible, caring, spontaneous, feeling, seekers, lovers, parents, children, adults, happy, sad, entertaining, questioning, adaptable, pliable and more. Religion has tainted us and reduced humanity to lustful sex object sinners who are weak beasts which are childlike idiots. Funny how many religious reduce everything down to sex, cloth to cover the parts that make you think sex and then punishment for saying I have a penis you have a vagina. Instead religion is more like I am a penis and your are a vagina.

    And that is why Bigstick, I stand by my statement that your definition of religion is very narrow and certainly that of an extremist (very Bedu extremist at that).

    The very first ayaat of the Quran was a command to seek knowledge, not about sinful flesh and all those rubbish you go on about. http://www.islamawareness.net/Knowledge/knowledge_article0003.html

  42. Dear bedu:
    “I think freedom is a great gift but one that must be used wisely.”
    Although__as apposed to you__I am a pro-theocracy but fully agree to your mind-base comments. Freedom is for all__not just for America!__and really thank you for condomning or rejecting such a poor movie.

    “Muslim world are blaming and calling America the enemy.”
    Let me clear a thing to you. We Muslims never call them whom make the double attak of 9/11 and other terrorist attacks Muslims__not because of their acts__due to they are much far away from Islam of Muhammed(sawaw). They are named “Salafis/wahhabis” or in other words Khawarij(voided). They are whom make terrorist attack in our own mosques and behead Muslims in Pakistan and India. They ruin tombs of saints in Egypt and anywhere. You are unfortunately misguiding the exalted meaning of Jihad.

    “I agree that Muslims are certainly free to protest against the film”
    Dear bedu I from third-world ask you open-minded live in USA, how much protests? I like you to read open-mindedly. America the eternal benefactor of Zionism against Muslims in the region. America who sucked the sweet petroleum of Iran during Shah. During 1990s America__a government that you vote for and back it__servE dictators whom paralyzed the world of Islam(such Husni Mubarak) and we only protest. America which published the book “the true Quran” gainst Muslims in 1998 in the name of free speech and we only protest. America which stormed Muslims’ country so-called war on terror(the better, war on oil) and we only protest. A damned priest burn the book of Allah before police in America and gov. said nothing to him and we only protest. America who never curb nor condemn such a derogatory movie in the name of free speech my dear prophet is being insulted and we only protest…

  43. I think the people who made this movie knew exactly what they were doing. I watched it the other day, and it’s really stupid, totally lame, badly made, and hurling every insult it can, to get the reaction, this reaction.

    Parts of the audio have obviously been dubbed in later too.
    Even the cast didn’t realize what they were saying on film! One of the actors now has asked Youtube (in vain) to remove it, citing death threats to her family.
    So not even the actors were complicit in it.
    Meaning it was the work of a person or persons with a clear agenda.

    And they sure did guess the psychology correctly, didn’t they? Like September 11, 2001, someone with really evil intentions sowed the seeds for future chaos, hatred, discord, death, destruction and misery, driving people into their respective corners in angry self-defense, whatever dogma they may follow.

    Those few people who erupted into violence are wrong, of course, and behaving pathetically. But they provide a good excuse to point and shout and retreat further into our corners. They are a good focus for our rage. And why shouldn’t they be? Look what they’ve done.

    It’s a short step from outrage at the violence to declaring a people wrong, a religion stupid, a culture ugly. We are seeing it everywhere. On both sides. All sides.

    All parties are acting in the same way humans usually act, throughout history, and it will be our doom. The filmmaker exploited this, knowing it would be picked up and shown to the world by someone wanting to fan the flames. Why make it otherwise? Apparently it was shown once, in LA, and they probably rented out the theatre to show it. But no one cared and no one came. Why translate it to Arabic? Could it be because the intended audience is exactly the audience they meant to target? How did the Egyptian Talk Show host find it? Well, I don’t know, but I’ll bet it was sent to him by the same people.

    So some person (or people) made a terrible, really bad, totally lame, inflammatory “movie,” dubbing in the worst, most insulting dialogue after it was made, with the specific intention to cause havoc, hatred and violence. It was shown once, and got no attention. It was put on Youtube and translated into Arabic, to get attention, but still nothing. Then, it was finally found (how?) and taken by someone else with a conservative agenda, and a wide TV audience, and shoved out into the world. Et Voila!

    Predictably, lots of people were horrified and insulted. A few of them got violent and attacked the US, predictably. (The only possible target since the whole sad situation was, up til then, anonymous. Yes, I know the US had nothing to do with the movie. But the US is usually a target, rightly or wrongly. You can safely assume it will be, if you are planning something like this.)

    Meanwhile, we are naturally outraged and disgusted by the killings and attacks. (In addition to killing people, protestors even set trees on fire!) Predictably, lots of people get angry, and verbally attack Muslims in general over the actions of a few in exactly the same way that we are attacked for movie we had nothing to do with. Please don’t tell me we aren’t as violent. Ours just looks different.

    Horrified, insulted, outraged, disgusted.

    So everyone is back in their corners, backed up against the walls, fists clenched, waiting for the next insult, and ready to fight.

    Human beings, tiny and terrified. Everywhere. Is any of it worth it, to be the king of a hillock for a day? If we let extremists, be they Muslim, American, or anyone, rule us so easily, what chance have we got? Play on our fears, manipulate us with ease, and we instantly descend into a cauldron of hate and fear, and the only seeming option is more of the same.

  44. I like your comment trygve.

    True; the tragic death of the US Ambassador to Libya was a shameless act of terror on the part of Al Qaeda.

    How does one go about repairing the bridges which have fallen?

  45. I think Anon’s comment was very relevant. Countries are not making these movies- or publishing these cartoons. Individuals are. Individuals with bad manners. And NO ONE would pay attention if Muslims ignored it. I think people are tired of hearing about a “religion of peace” when it’s so easy to just make them go nuts. So I predict this will keep happening. It also gives small people a power high. All you have to do is make a poorly made 5 minute movie, or draw a rude cartoon and look at all the people running around protesting- sometimes violently. So it’s a power high- and it’s evidence that Islam is not a religion of peace.

    Muslims need to stop acting like children, especially violent children. There have been ugly things produced about Jesus. But mostly they get ignored as in bad taste- and so it doesn’t happen often. To the American peoples credit- no one was interested in this nonsense film until the Muslims used it as an excuse to riot and be violent. THEN it became interesting.

    It’s going to keep happening. I think it is irresistable to some folks to make trouble when it’s so easy. And NO I don’t think it incited hate. No one disliked Muslims because of this film. But people are shaking their heads over the reactions. It’s the violence that is inciting hate.

    My 2 cents. Or 4 :)!

  46. Muslims never broke bridge that need to repair. There is no bridge at all. Not Al Qaeeda nor Taliban are responsible to attack. Although I admit those six missiles busted in NATO base, Afghanistan was a good work of Taliban. The attack and the wasting of America ambassador to Lybia was caused by the holy wrath of Muslims not anything else. And America incriminates extremists to purge Muslims hatred to it..

  47. I agree with Sandy.

    If that pathetic waste of good film had not been touted, distributed and given worldwide fame by the Muslims themselves nobody would ever have known about it.
    And moreover, if this stupid piece of crap had become known, in the Wicked West, in a ”normal”way”, it’s such an awful piece of nasty bigoted crap, it would actually have raised strong sympathy for Muslims!

    A lot of people do not like to see a whole group or religion being vilified in such a moronic cheap way. If this pathetic piece of nastiness had been treated with disdain, as normal rational people would have treated it, Muslims in general would have reaped the benefits, the commiseration and support of all reasonable, rational thinking non-Muslims.
    But noooo, Muslims choose to use it as a stupid excuse for the most vile of sins. the Muslims who are against committing such crimes are unable to stop it, and actually still propagate censoring free speech because their sensitivities are so hurt.

    The main conclusion to be made out of this disaster is that Muslims are really, really stupid.

  48. This is the real free speech and true freedom of religions that a secular gov. such as France forbids scarves on heads of Muslim women and never permits peaceful demonstration(as permitted in the clause concerning free speech in evil constitution of France)

  49. On the matter of free speech, freedom of expression etc. It has to be whole, it has to be complete. Yes, that means that real stupid, nasty bigoted idiots do exist and have the right to free speech too.
    And they are going to be insulting to somebody.

    Too bad. It is silly to claim the right that nobody can ever be allowed to insult you, your believe in superstitions, or you imaginary gods. And any attempt by crazed mobs of murderers should be ignored.
    Freedom of speech is actually law in many civilized countries, therefore it is impossible for any government to curtail it. And we should never allow murderous, superstitous barbarians to dictate, by the threat of murder, superior civilizations to de-evolve into barbarism themselves.

    Freedom of speech is beautifully and brilliantly explained in this video:

  50. I do say secular govs. are not that foolish to make something to fuel protest against their selves! Individuals do and govs. back them. (WHY?)

  51. Allahu, you mean niqabs. And why not? It is ridiculous and a threat to security to have people walk around hiding their face. Moreover, it’s an insult to every man and woman on the planet. Really insulting.
    There are rules against hiding your face, that includes wearing closed helmets and stocking over your head.
    Btw, in my country teachers are not allowed to wear niqab either. In Tunesia, niqab is forbidden altogether, in Saudi Arabia all women, even non-Muslims, are forced to wear the stupid abaya since the last few decades. Are you against that too? The abaya-thing is insulting to rational people. It implies every man is a rabis insane sex maniac. Which we know is not true, so that is só insulting it should be banned all over the planet.

    What’s your point really?
    Did you see the video I posted? It will tell you some very poignant truths.

  52. No. My point is Hijab(covering head only). Why hijab is prohibited in academic places in France and some Europe countries? And you neverever can respond about why France do not let Muslims demo and thousand whys that you never can answer…

    You should have not prejudge about Nighab. The point is not about men. Nighab in Islam is voluntarily and also should be removed during Hajj. Hijab has only one reason in the noble Quran that protect women from persecuting. You and others like you think there is no differences between sexes. Women can work and walk like man and man too. Sharia Law is NOT man-made such as your constitutions. Sharia is morally based on human-being needs and wants and his issue has a long tail…

  53. @allahu-akbar, It doesn’t matter who says what, protest peacefully, fight for the rights to use hijab peacefully, fight to not have islam insulted peacefully. do whatever anyone wants WITHOUT causing harm to others. an dthis goes both ways, the west needs to know how to behave without causing harm ( physically and emotionally) and the east ( ?) needs to stop killing innocents every time something offends them.
    I completely get the riot and mob mentality – unfortunately i have been exposed to that but we are HUMANS , we evolve, we look and learn.

    All this is is

    one idiot who hated islam wanted to provoke muslims – did it.
    and
    the 1 muslim idiot who wanted to cause trouble did it .. inthe process a whole lot of people got offended and 4 whole families lost a piece of themselves for ever.

    if the idiot who made the film apologizes and you tube destroys the film and the whole world apologized to the muslims and claims islam is the one true religion then — CAN YOU BRING BACK THE DEAD PEOPLE !!!!

    no you cannot, what one cannot bring back one has no right to take. and this applies to individuals, mobs, countries, governments etc.,

    i condone the film. till people were killed, now i condone the killing only above all else. — end of rant 🙂

  54. I’m for freedom of speech – i’m also against using said freedom to insult people.
    what i don’t understand is.

    The cartoonists /film makers etc., whomever are excicing their right on purpose to get a reaction why on god’s green earth are the muslims stupid enough to respond. and this is not the first time. evert single time someone draws a cartoon someone dies…

    the more you react the more people will get you to. why can’t the muslims in retaliation do something that gets a rise out of the free speech cartoon drawing idiots. the muslims can excise their rights of free speech and do it right!!!!! why don’t they make a film and draw something nasty about some other religion, heaven knows we have plenty.

    I’m not advocating tit for tat, but if you must get offended why can’t you get offended in a harmless fashion??? no one is saying free speech is only for certain people. go forth , excise your free speech.

    no ONE is responsible for someone else’s HURT feelings… what insults carol may or may not insult me. no one can take into consideration every single humans hurt feelings.

    evil is not going to stop just because muslims are offended… remember
    “hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil” — It’s all upto you what you choose to see, hear and read. someone offending your prophet, DON’T SEE THE FILM.. DON’T PROMOTE IT. cut off internet connection in your house/street/country whatever rocks your boat. but DO NOT TAKE A LIFE.

  55. Why not take lives? They take lives in Afghanistan, Iraq and primarily in Palestine. Why not take lives while America committed this offend for the endless times? I ask Americans what Free Speech exactly means?! Dose it mean you can char Bible but you cannot say anything about HOLY DOOMED ISRAEL?

  56. Radha has written a comment which I believe makes the most sense and is full of common sense.

    AA – lives are so precious and I also believe it is not a human’s place to kill, no matter who or where from.

    What country are you in, if you don’t mind my asking? I think it would be interesting for readers to define what Free Speech means to them no matter nationality or location. Free Speech to me is a gift where I can choose to say what I wish but I believe it also comes with the responsibility to choose and use words wisely.

    There is enough unrest and violence and no reason to abuse freedom of speech which would purposely cause greater dissent and divides. That may sound simple but it is my point of view.

    I have lived in enough countries and among many different nationalities of people. Tolerance and understanding is important to me. I do not feel there is any obligation that everyone has to agree with the other, that would be kind of ridiculous. However, it is okay to agree to disagree and just leave it at that!

  57. I also believe that free speech comes with responsibility but sadly not everyone is responsible in this world. Having said that I think more appropriate would be if everyone in the world would understand the old saying ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me’ and get on with life.

    Censorship is a slippery slope and I suppose those who have never had it just can’t understand how important it is.

  58. Dear Bedu, you wrote down a beautiful slogan__not more__about lives but this is important where are obedient to your so-called slogan? USA? A govenment which grade human lives by regions? For example for an american a NATO soldier’s life is prior to president of Adghanistan only because he(the president) live in a third-world country.

    Free Speech is a pure idea by which some countries are going to offend Islam. For beginning, I(as an illiterate!) which country is for Free Speech and truely advocate that?

  59. Free speech cannot be limited.
    Because if it is, who should be telling you which parts should be limited? Who would you trust to decide for you??? Surely not the superstitious bigots. We know how that would end: another age of Darkness, suffering and torture. Another hell on Earth. Again.

    And even if you are so limited as to think free speech should be limited you should realize you deny yourself freedom to think, freedom to make up your own mind, freedom to learn and grow.
    Now of course the religious leaders want to limit freedom of speech, because all that stuff about self determination, about growing and evolving, and independent thought, is exactly what they want to curtail. Religious leaders want mindless drones. Sheep. Slaves. They even tell you so straight out.

    Limited thinkers, unable to come up with a straight argument, only capable of spewing propaganda nonsense, ready to commit any crime, however hideous, like Alahu Akbar here are the result.
    Is a limited bigot like Alahu the right person to censor free speech and free thought for anybody else?

    These murders and attacks on innocent people are the symptom of a very diseased society/religion. The fault is entirely with the Muslim community; which is at this time unable to put up a religion and/or society which is capable of rational civilized behavior.
    Please work on it and prove me wrong.
    But that has to be somewhere in the future, because right now, Islam proves itself again and again to be an insane grotesque murderous force for evil.

  60. Islam is the last Abrahamic religion which concludes all gospels from the god of universe to whom live in. I unfortunately read your comment and I do say that I agree with you in somewhere of that which you never expect me to!

    The noble Quran says “Do not follow things that you have no knowledge about”. You call me “limited thinker” as well as I am seeing a day that you and they who think like you queued for begging a holy drop of oil in front of embassies of Islamic countries. Then you would forget meaning of free speech and remember how to beg us…

  61. where are Jews supposed to live?? They’ve been kicked out of every country on this earth!!!! Both the Bible and the Quran has very nasty things to say about the Jews which really wrong and ignorant because both Christianity and Islam appropriated (borrowed? stole?) monotheism from the Jews, made it their own and then went on to commit terror and genocide against the Jews. If People of the Book kill and insult each other… look in the mirror to see who has denegrated the prophet(s) (puh) of all the monotheistic religions. If you hate the Jews, you are dooming your won monotheistic religion. I love God but monotheism is too ugly, mean and nasty…..

  62. Judaism is the Grandfather. Christianity is the son. Islam is the grandson. Respect your elders please!!!!!!

  63. I am a US resident/citizen.

    The first amendment to the US Constitution (our basic law) reads:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    So, one has the right to practice Islam in the US, or Christianity, or any other religion. The US government also has no right to limit freedom of speech. So, anyone in the US has the right to say anything derogatory about any other religion that they want to, including against Christianity, or Islam. (I don’t say that this is a good thing to do, but it is your right in the US.)

    So, the US government has no right to prohibit that film based on its content. If they were indeed secretly financing it/promoting it, that would be another story (and, indeed, probably against the above quoted First Amendment). But I have seen nothing that indicates that the US government aided in the filming/promotion. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to hear it. (And, yes, I agree that the US government has done thing it should not have abroad. So have all other governments at one point or another. Here, I am referring only to the incident of this particular film.)

    And, within the US borders, no one has the right to break other laws, such as harming others, based on others exercising their rights defined by the First Amendment. Even if what they have to say is idiotic, they have the right to say it.

    So, to change the US laws to prohibit this type of film, one would have to go against the US constitution. The constitution has been changed from time to time over the years, but I, for one, hope that this particular principle stands.

    And, to get a bit off topic on what US law is, my opinion, as someone who practices neither Christianity or Islam (I am a Buddhist) is that if your religious practice influences you to commit negative acts such as indiscriminate violence, you should take a good hard look at the validity of said practice.

  64. Buddhism says 2 things are truths and most important: 1) dont get attached to things/people/ideas etc becuase everything changes or comes to and end 2) to end suffering and to have universal compassion is the most important thing. Isnt this a beautiful philosophy instead of religious hatred? Putting together both palms of the hands to pray or to bow to someone in greeting is saying: you and I are one…coming together in unity…. the divinity in me bows and recognizes the divinity in you! All ideas about religion and God are just that … ideas!!!!! we can kill each other over them or come together in unity and recognize the good in each other and the divinity in each other…. whether God/Allah is real or just an idea…. we can choose respect… which no monotheistic religion has done yet…. or we can destroy each other….and this planet…. all children of God….. a planet perhaps made by God… we can destroy or we can create and nurture. Personally I think women create and nurture and love and men kill and destroy and rape. I think any male dominated religion tends to rape kill and destroy… ie marital rape and sex slaves thru war in the Quran….that’s deplorable. I think we need to respect and get to know the good in all religions.

  65. Great comments, everyone!

    Quite a few commenters have said that the vast majority of muslims are peaceful and that it is only a tiny minority of fanatics who are creating mayhem. I would like to respond that we are told again and again by experts and talking heads that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unquantified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. Islamic dogma, like the communist and nazi dogmas, is essentially a CULT bent on conquering the entire world and implementing sharia and establishing a caliphate.

    Folks, the fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of hundreds of shooting wars world wide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder or execute honor killings. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard, quantifiable fact is that the “peaceful majority” is the “silent majority,” and it is cowed and thus extraneous.

    This so-called Peaceful Majority is Irrelevant. History lessons are often incredibly simple …..

    Don’t ya remember that Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a war-mongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across Southeast Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians – most killed by sword, shovel and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were “peace loving”?

    History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt; yet, for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by the fanatics. Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because just like communism and nazism, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

    Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Saudi Arabians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians and many others, have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us in the civilized west, watching it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

  66. Allahu, that’s what you believe, on in my opinion no proof. I think Mohammed was a clever warlord, who used a variant of early Christianity to further his own ends. I consider the Abrahamic religions to be the immoral suppressive misogynist left overs of a primitive group of illiterate desert dwellers who were far below us modern humans in every respect, but especially in morality and humanity.

    This latest spate of violence and murder is clear proof of the primitive backwardness of the Abrahamic religions. They are the root of evil.
    Now you can believe whatever ancient superstitions you like, but that makes you a person whose intelligence and rationality, and especially whose morals are weak and highly suspect.

    And you deserve no special treatment. You need to grow up and deal with the fact that you, like everybody else on the planet, will get insulted by others during the course of your life. And you will have to learn to take it like a man, not whine about it and throw a tantrum like a spoiled child. Not start murderering innocent people who have not even a connection with who ever insulted you like a crazy homicidal lunatic murderer.
    Get it now?

    Good points Rosemary.

  67. Lets not forget, it’s the passive peace loving majority who are the supporters, the power base, the ones who allow the mad extremists to do their crimes. As they are the majority they are capable of stopping the crazed minority. But they won’t. That makes them culpable in some degree. And they certainly have no right to shove their responsibility of keeping their own crazies in check onto other groups.

    Therefore Muslims have no right to demand that other people and countries, who do not believe in the Muslim superstitions and imaginary invisible friends, to change their deeply held believes, laws, constitutions, for the sake of a minority of crazy killers.
    It’s too absurd.

  68. @allahu-akbar,
    “Why not take lives? They take lives in Afghanistan, Iraq and primarily in Palestine. Why not take lives while America committed this offend for the endless times? I ask Americans what Free Speech exactly means?! ”

    DO not take lives because you cannot give it back 🙂 it’s as simple as that. This life was lost because a bunch of people were offended about a film!! a film for god’s sake – 1 useless movie – timepass that has no purpose to anything .

    as for your next statement. america is taking lives since they blame afganistan for 9/11 or whatever their stupid reason may be so you are OK with taking lives because of a movie???? just clarifying this line of thought… if so do you always copy america? why you just claimed saudi was selling islam for american money, why in god’s name are you selling your humanity to copy the very same america?

    this is bully 101 , didn’t they teach it to you in school. when a bully provokes you ( aka this idiot who made the movie) ,
    rule no 1 – ignore
    2, walk away
    3, complain

    As for whar free speech means it means you can write, draw, make whatever the heck you want, yes you can insult jesus, israel, the moon and even my mother and as a normal human i can retaliate and use my free speech doing the same thus wasting both our lives 🙂 it definetly does not mean when you abuse me i can come chop your head off , that is Murder.

    we have a lot of job openings , all those for whom taking a life is easy is should come work for us.- volunteer actually and see the daily problems and sufferings comman man goes thru , you willrealise how idiotic fighting over a silly movie is.

  69. anon
    I memorized the silly constitution of Columbia much better than you! Now tell me why you cannot draw a pinky lovely caricature concerning the false of HOLOCAUST?! Oh, oh I have neglected that your gov. is the fist-grade slave of Zion…

    Aafk
    No proof? My proof is a book in which there is no error. And you must know Islam has nothing to be against women but rather women are a grave part of Ummah to spread Islam(MONOTHEISM). You are not on a good view to see backwardness, you should look at those nasty Buddhists charred 20,000 Muslims in a month. Can I ask you how you can understand moralities of people very well???

    I do like who believe in Allah and no other else and do perform Jihad(based on what the noble Quran mention) against who offends the religion of the only god. They who are NOT innocent they are whom America hired to hurt theocracy promoting in Mid-East.

    I am from Iran with 11 to 13 of scientific growth. And a countries which you beg us for our saint petroleum after six-month of sanctions.

    Extremists Muslims are far away from DEVIANTS. An extremist such as Khomeini who evolve the world-minding and prove you that religions area is NOT expired.

  70. AA – I tend to do and follow what -I- believe rather than be influenced.

  71. I don’t know. Can we repair the bridges? Do we care? We must try, but it seems a monumental and disheartening task. Do enough people want to? Or do we like it like this and look forward to more of the same? Maybe that’s the truth. The fanatics sure like it.

    All I know is that I live in a very different culture from where I was raised. And it’s difficult!

    I have offended so many people! And been offended so many times! It happens a lot less now, and it takes a lot of work to figure out where I went wrong. It’s never helpful to criticize the other person–it just provokes ill will. Especially here.

    But usually, by seeing where I went wrong, and trying to fix it, things get worked out and smoothed over and maybe the other person will see his mistake as well. Maybe! I don’t mind being wrong. I’m a strong person!

    I’m not talking about violence and murder–there isn’t an argument in favor of it.
    I’m not really even talking about that movie.

    Living here, and spending most of my time with local people, I can’t help but notice so many things that America does (officially) that look really terrible! Not everything, of course!

    When I’m in the US, those same things are perceived differently. It seems like people think of them as reactions to provocations and don’t really pay attention, and certainly don’t see them as a continuous policy, if they think about them at all.

    Drone strikes, the invasion of Iraq, the fiasco in Afghanistan, NYPD spying on Muslims, etc etc. And of course, the unquestioned support of Israel and its policies, no matter how unfair to the Palestinians.

    Lots of Americans disagree with any or all of these, but we don’t take it personally like Muslims do. And why would we? It’s not “us,” it’s “them.” (I realize there are plenty of American Muslims of course.) And maybe we think we’re acting in self-defense.

    Like it or not, and you can argue it till the cows come home; this series of policies and events don’t serve us. How can they? You’re going to kill all those fanatics? That’s ridiculous.

    The gulf between the West and Islam, or whatever you want to call it, is not something thought up just by the Muslims. We are at least as guilty as “they.” It’s fanatics, on both (or all) sides.

    We see ourselves as the victim just as often as “they” do.
    Isn’t that right?

    I don’t think most people want to hate the US. I think most people have rather complicated feelings about America, there’s a lot of things to love, too! But it sure does get easier to hate us when one of our bombs accidentally kills your daughter, or your friend’s daughter. Or your mom.

    Whether the airplane drops a bomb, or whether it crashes into a building like a bomb, the result benefits no one. No one.

    In Oman, it takes time to get at the truth about how people perceive my country. No one wants to embarrass me. But eventually I learn things. I count many friends and love several people who are hurt, disgusted and angry about America. I should just ignore them? Deny it? Blame them? Tell them they are wrong? No I can’t. I have to listen.

  72. Alahu, So what? I can write a book which says it’s the last word and I am the last prophet. I would only need about a week to put it together, and I don’t even need to plagiarize other holy books and old poets like Mohammed did.
    And as I am morally way more advanced as Mohammed and his merry gang of thugs, my book would be a lot better written, a lot more moral, and it would make for a vastly superior religion. At least i would leave out the endorsements of slavery, I would not allow men to rape their slaves and wives, and I would not call for the murder of people who do not believe I am the very last Prophet.

    And in a thousand years my followers will proclaim the truth of my holy book because the book says it’s the truth. And the book says I am the very last prophetess therefore I am. Or was.
    And the goddess of the Invisible Unicorn is the only true living god in the Universe.

  73. Oops! Blasphemy! That should have been ”the Invisible Pink Unicorn” I hope the followers of the invisible Pink Unicorn will not kill the Dutch ambassadors now!

  74. PS another superior very last holy book, (or at least the latest I know of) is the ”Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster”.
    Which was revealed in 2005 by the prophet Bobby Henderson.
    This book of revelations about the creation of the universe, the rules, and the afterlife is so new it’s still hot when you buy it!
    And this book you can trust, as the divine creator of the UNiverse has finally chosen a literate age to reveal The Truth, His, (or Her) word is finally printed and spread without oral trditions and illiterate scribes messing it up.
    The fact that is so very different from the other holy books prove how badly they have been warped and editted.

    And, to use the fallacy of popularity: Pastafarianism is the fastest growing religion on the planet right now, proving that the only true creator of Life, The Universe, and Everything, is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

  75. Excellent commentary on the riots:

  76. Regarding Allahu-Akbar’s comment, in reference to Carol’s original post: I think that we are a long way from tolerance here.

    In reference to my comments, I really don’t understand how your comments relate to what I have said.

    Slightly OT – I am glad I drive a hybrid car, and I hope that governmental and private entities continue to work towards developing alternates to oil consumption.

  77. So many comments; so many point of views; so many issues and all valid. How would each of us feel if we were to live in one another’s shoes for one week?

  78. Do you believe that “concerning the false of HOLOCAUST?!” is valid?

    I believe that there is a right to say that (at least in the US), but I can’t agree that it is valid.

  79. Aafke – that clip says it better than anyone else.

    Why should we care about hurting the feelings Muslim bullies who riot, kill, and issue death threats whenever Muslims feel insulted?e Let them riot and kill each other. How many have died now besides. the f our American. Muslims. need to realize they cannot command respect by the sword, respect is earned.

    I have lost all respect I had for Islam. The violent so called “minority”. Muslims disgust me but the so called “majority” who are silent disgusts me even more. I can’t wait for the West to go totally oil free. Then we. can tell the middle east to go f*ck themselves.

  80. Mrs Bawazir, yes it is me! I am surprised you know who I am hehe

  81. Aafke, the fact that you say “Free speech cannot be limited” is absolutely dangerous! You do know that already Free Speech has been used by many racists and bigots to get their views out there…to spread hate into the world…And you want no limits??
    And in another comment you said no one has the right to not be insulted or something similar to that… What planet do you live on?! It’s called Human Rights. Every human should have the right to live in peace. How do you think world peace is possible if people are constantly mocking and insulting each other just because they can?

    And if you support unlimited free speech so much, does that mean you support groups of white men wearing white hoods who call black people the N-Word and telling them to go back to Africa? Do you support the people who call Jewish people “Kikes” all day long and wish Adolf Hitler had never died? Or the fact that Hitler said Jews should be wiped off the Earth? People that say all non-Whites should leave the United States or UK?? People who call Asians “Chinks”??

    Because all of that can be said under “Free speech”.

    It does NOT make it right. There must be limitations. To protect each other, and to preserve peace. Or you will just end up with another Holocaust.

  82. Amal:

    So since your religion is offensive can I limit your speech and your actions if it offends/insults me as I find your religion, Hate God and pedo sexoholic prophet who conned so many for sex, booty, and power as offensive. Until that happens don’t count on limtiations. Just suck it up and go on about your business otherwise limit your speech on your hate religion. Maybe then people will stop talking about your prophet that by the way has many offensive and detailing stories all from Islamic sources that are not favorable and many of Islamic countries and clerics uphold his less than favorable attributes.

    I remember hearing a line once that fits this senario. Religions should be like gum, placed in the person’s mouth, enjoyed by them alone with their mouth closed.

    Actually KKK can come out in the USA and parade around just like that or the Westboro Baptist Church can go to funerals and scream hate words. This is allowed in the USA. Like it or not. I can walk out and burn the flag or the bible or the quran today. I can actually go out and write offensive words on a placard about any race and walk down the street. Like it or not and it is allowed in the USA. It is my right. Like it or not this is freedom of speech and expression. I can even state the Holocaust never existed in the USA, hell how many people actually go on about 911 being an inside job or other crap like there were no planes. They can do it in the USA and it is protected speech and expression. Hell religions say humans sin everyday and spew hate against homosexuals and spew hate against other religions everyday and call women less intelligent and walking awrah and their hate speech and actions are acceptable including their backward destructive tendency of limiting critical thinking, reason as well as common sense.

  83. Bigstick, that’s really sad. You think religion is something that needs to stop as you claim its hateful. Yet its your “right” to call people the N-word and be a racist person? Sorry, but hate has many faces and just because you hate religion does not mean you’re making the world a better place. Learn some respect and tact, you seem to be lacking it.

  84. Amal:

    You also have reading comprehension problems. I have stated that if religious want freedom of speech and expression limited then they too should be limited. I have provided you with just what it means to have freedom of speech. Not that I would go out and do this but I will defend someone’s right to state it even if offensive and I will also define your right to state your religion even if I find it offensive.

  85. By the way religion means nothing but hate to me and many others.

  86. No, I don’t. If you will defend someone saying whatever no matter how offensive it is, that means you support it. I could never defend someone who says something like “So and so people are sub human and should be eradicated from the Earth”. Even if it is free speech, how can you let people have the right to be hateful and racist? What good does it do humanity? To let people abuse each other in the name of “freedom”? Would you have defended Hitler’s rants Bigstick? Did he have the right according to you to spew hatred? If you think yes, something is wrong. If you were targeted in the US because you are white, I assume, and everyday people called you “Cracker” or “Honky” and said white people are evil, would you still say
    “Gee thanks, I support your right to insult me”.

  87. Been called that and half breed as well. Big f….ing deal. Get over it.

  88. It should be a big deal, and “get over it” is not a solution. If the world wants peace, we have to learn how to accept each other. It’s impossible if such an apathetic approach is given.

  89. By the way Amal. You cannot change hate if you cannot discuss or allow it. Hiding the fact that religious are homophobic, racist, womanizers or others who share this ideology doesn’t make it go away by the fact that you don’t publicly address it but by keeping quitem it can make it worse as it becomes more hidden and in the darkness more insidious and dangerous. There is a reason for freedom of speech and expression.

  90. it amazes me that ignorant holocaust deniers exist. Of course you have no proof of the Holocaust! You have never met or spoken with a Jew! Since I have…. I have PROOF many times over of first hand knowledge of the holocaust. Should you have freedom of speech to shout your religious filled hatred against all other religions and yet no religion is allowed to spew forth hatred and lies about YOUR religion???? You should be the only religion to have freedom of speech and freedom of worship? The only synogogue left in Egypt for the first time in 2000 years was CLOSED for the Jewish high holiday services this year. Should we close every mosque??? How would you like that???

  91. Meg who are you talking to?

  92. Aaf(oil-begger!)
    What you are blabbing is nothing but a phobia which greatly have effected on like you. Prejudge about book about religions. U know nothing but how to rattle. The Quran was enunciated by the Bible more than ten centuries before but Xtans readily rejected that while knowing the truth. You can judge about Quran When you have read it fully. Phobia:
    http://www.english.moqawama.org/essaydetails.php?eid=20954&cid=269

    Dear Bedu
    “I tend to do and follow what -I- believe rather than be influenced.”
    We also tend to do and follow beliefs.

  93. Alahu, hihihiiiiii! You finally wrote something funny! Thank you for starting my day with a good laugh :mrgreen:

    Amal, I know, free speech will allow people whom you don’t like, whose stance in life you do not like, to also say what they want to say. I don’t like the ”film” by that Egyptian con man which started this discussion. But we cannot curtail his right to express his awful ideas.

    Amal, please watch the first video I posted, the Christopher Hitchens video, he speaks about ”free speech” and makes you think about it. He sais stuff which made me think.
    Watch it and then we continue this discussion, ok?

  94. Any open-minded available to tell me which country holds free speech the time being?

  95. It is blasphemous to many Christians when people say Jesus was just a man or a prophet. They believe he is God and you are insutling him. If blasphemy were a crime- no Muslims in the West could say Jesus was just a prophet- because it hurts Christians feelings. As it is with free speech Christians can say what they believe about Jesus and so can Muslims.

    Be careful wishing for blasphemy laws.

  96. Very nIce point Sandy, people never seem to realize that putting restriction on freedom of speech or freedom of religion, will turn around and bite them in the a**!

  97. They terror our best and we terror their best.
    Defining free speech and justifying attack on Us embassy and wasting the US ambassador to Lybia:
    They attacked our prophet and terrored our personality in the name of free speech. And we did attack their consulate and did terror their personnel in the name of free speech. This is the fact of free speech.

  98. A film producer in America started this tirade and violence. It was NOT the United States government or the American people. The same can be said for 9/11. A small group of fanatics took down the world trade center buildings, flew into the Pentagon and crashed into a field in Pennsylvania. That was not the actions of a government or a majority group of Muslims. This is where the “mob mentality” need to apply logic.

    If a worldwide vote were taken I believe most people would want tolerance and peace rather than the building of continued violence.

  99. Allahu:

    ‘”Aaf(oil-begger!)
    What you are blabbing is nothing but a phobia which greatly have effected on like you. Prejudge about book about religions. U know nothing but how to rattle. The Quran was enunciated by the Bible more than ten centuries before but Xtans readily rejected that while knowing the truth. You can judge about Quran When you have read it fully. Phobia:”

    Yeah right and by the way I have a green martian in my backyard playing cards with a jinn and satan is playing a fiddle watching fairies dance.

    Read it fully of course it is soooooooooooo incompleted according to a majority of muslims without those crazy hadith.

  100. AB::

    There is a hugh difference between 9/11 and this crap piece of film making that did no harm anyone. To compare one with another is well,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I have no words right now to describe it nicely.

    Next this film maker is not the one who started anything. It was the protestors who drew first blood. Those who are geared toward violence. They used this particular idiotic film only as a way to do what they already intended make no mistake that the was just something they did have in the works for a while long before any film. It is in there violence and need for religious tryanny that has created this issue and incident of 9/11. It is a religious war whether people call it that are not and it was declared long ago.

  101. Anon … I chuckled when I read your OT comment about hybrid cars. Are you referring to our dependence and compliance of/with oil producing countries at all? LOL!!!

  102. Mrs. B:

    Question what is mischief? The definition you provide is subjective and that in itself is the problems. Mischief – Blasphemy laws, Mischief – Apostate, Mischief – wife refuses sex Mischief – LBGT – Is this mischief? To many muslims it is and it deserves death, being beaten, etc.

    Now stop being an apologist and deal with the real issues that currently many followers are demanding and forcing others to respect the intolerant with bully/terrorist tactics and you and many of your like religionist are failing to stopping it but instead stand by and watch the worst parts of your religious doctrines to have free reign to which can be to your detriment at some point.

    By the way the film actually has items that are taken from Islamic sources so stop that Orientalist crap as people can read. Hell most people here have far more education than the idiots who call themselves Clerics/scholars in the Middle east. I assure you that we are quite capable of reading and comprehending. However, that is exactly what scares the religious is actually our learning more and more and determining that it is about a oversexed warmonger that raped children and captives and it is WELL DOCUMENTED. He even had a woman pulled apart so spare me that this film did anything to harm your prophet. Your own sources show him to be the monster that he and many of his current and past followers are.

  103. The fact is almost no one would have known about this movie clip (it isn’t even a movie) if Muslims hadn’t advertised it so broadly.

    And people who did see it wouldn’t have disliked Islam or Muslims because of it. The violent response of Muslims is what makes people not like them.

  104. Amen to that!!!

  105. I am never used to exaggerate someone but I really thank you to write this truly peaceful term:

    “If a worldwide vote were taken I believe most people would want tolerance and peace rather than the building of continued violence.”

    No Muslims do not want violence as no Muslims permitted to use violence against any peaceful mankind. And read honestly what I write:
    The true it is the America is not that silly to jeopardize its reputation in the universe. But America is the religious puppet of Israel(Can you object that? NEVER) and because of that America never withdraws Israelite ambitions in UN and in any political circle. America support what(Israel) is murdering unarmed Muslims in their own nation. And the sacrosanct 9/11 happened. Then wasting grave population of marionettes…

    I swear that if America get far away from its Zionist leaders, Ummah(Islam world) may be peaceful with such a doll…

    And you and I do know that US never backs down…

  106. I do not agree with much of US policy regarding Israel and much of the middle east. BUT if Israel dissapeared tomorrow most of the Middle east would still have all the same issues. It would only solve the immediate problems of the Palestinians. All the rest of the countries would still be suffering the same nonsense- and they’d probably find a new way to blame someone else and their feeling would still be hurt by cartoons and bad movies.

  107. Allahu-Akbar – you have a good point about the US being a puppet to Israel. I’m sad to say that Canada is giving Israel far too much support also. Unfortunately Israel is not the only problem America brings upon itself. Unless Islamic countries can accept that non-Islamic countries revere freedom of speech and learn to control themselves and behave as adults when they hear something they don’t like we will always have issues.

  108. Wendy
    I do not what your religion is but I admit your comment fully and welcome you. Free speech MUST be control(what US and its allies desire vice versa!). And what nice you said about Canada__which lately closed Iran’s embassy in soil of Canada.

    Sandy
    Repeat this term a thousand times:
    “Islam has problems with non-muslims but never wants to violate them till they violent first”.

    “BUT if Israel dissapeared tomorrow most of the Middle east would still have all the same issues.”
    Of course they would still have. Why? Because Us is a pro-secular country in contrast with pro-theocracies. And I never say that all problems would be solved but rather “the greatest problem”(Zionism perished) solved and makes US like other non-Muslim countries with which mid-east have a fair relations(such as China, Korea, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina etc.)

    To all
    SHOUT..SHOUT.. You hearing from Iran, Islamic Republic of. I am from the first-grade holy adversary of Israel and America. I have souvenirs for you:
    I admit you about censorship existed in my country and consequently free speech is limited(however primarily due to religious issues). Know it, Iran loves an America without Israel. Iran asking you Americans many times why are you puppet of doomed Israel? Despite US obviously aided Iraq against us for 8 years but Iran blame nasty America merely for being pro-Zionism.

  109. We Muslims love Americans who dislike Israel such as Late Rachel Corrie.

  110. Allah loves honests. (the noble Quran)

  111. As a Muslim- I am ashamed to acknowledge that some Muslims often are violent when they should not be. There is no Islamic excuse for killing people over a stupid movie, or for the violent way Islamic societies treat members of their own societies particularly women. And until enough of us admit it and try to influence things differently, we will be last. Last in knowledge, in human rights, in art, in science- you name it.

  112. As a Muslim Alahu-Akbar, I know that is not true.

  113. Allahu:

    Bull, allah allows dishonesty re-read your koran and also you will find the same provision in Christianity and Judiasm. God allows killing, torture, prostitution, slave sex, multiple wives, child rape, child abuses(including killing of your own children), homosexual killings, apostate killing, blaspemy kiilling, wife abuse, lying, deception,gender apartheid and a whore house in the sky with wine and pearly boys. You will excuse me if I pass on God’s moral cause and family values, AS THEY SUCK.

    Next many Americans have a dislike towards Israel due to numerous issue and lies that have gotten us involved into areas that we should have never been involved. Research the black flag incident.

    Many American’s are tired of Israel. Next many American’s are growing tired of religion in general in the public scene and wantpeople to keep it to themselves and out of the public domain as more find it just delusion and evil. America is becoming more non-religious everyday but we are still the most religious western nation among all western nations.

    Next you actually give the USA far to much influence over these governments, believe me the people and governments have a great deal more to do with their situation than the USA . Most often the governments lie to the USA and just use the money to which we get the bare minimum and they get a lot of monies for that minimum. Next, why don’t you and yours start taking some responsiblity for the mess your people have created for themselves in your country. Seems to me you like the backward corrupt fantasy (religious) world of hate, torture and vileness. Example how many people has that government killed over stupid idiotic fantasy harry potter hate books………….far too many for a god that stinks. So if you don’t change it inside your own country then that is YOUR problem stop point fingers at others when your government and people have dug their own damn hole. Take some damn responsiblity for shit. The USA is not solely responible for the world freaking problems and we are damn tired of you lazy asses blaming every damn problem you have on us all the while you reap the benefits of advances such as technology, medicine, transportation, etc. So Stick it, you little whine bag.

    By the way welcome to the 14/15th century of inquistion and witchtrails.

    We are not going backwards to stupid religious inhuman torture times and we are not going back to when the hateful religious rule…….they are a bunch of evil, vile nutters.

    Just look at the nutter Jewish that spit on children for modesty (control tactic) and the Taliban or Muslim Brotherhood, or Al-Queda etc or the Christian Dominionist. A bunch of hateful vile individuals who worship a hateful and vile Sex hung up demented stinker of a God. There God and their religion are the essence of what the fantasy books read and it is delisionalism at it’s worst.

  114. Yep Allahu, you worship the same nasty evil immoral god as the Christians and Jews: the war god Jahweh. An imaginary friend of a primitive illiterate people who had very little morals and the ones they did have are quite opposite to the ones we, modern, advanced, civilized, humane and rational people have.
    Now you can get a grip on yourself and join the human race, or you can sink back into the quagmire of primitive hate and stupidity. Your choice.

    But in that case will you please stop using Western inventions and advancements? Stuff like modern medicine, cars, electricity, printed books (including the quran, copy and write it yourself) and especially leave off computers and the internet?

  115. “Islam has problems with non-muslims but never wants to violate them till they violent first”.

    “No Muslims do not want violence as no Muslims permitted to use violence against any peaceful mankind.”

    BS, I call it. Statements like these show 1. ignorance of the Quran and hadith (or dishonesty); and 2. a lack of respect for non-Muslims.

    Let me repeat what I said in another Ambedu post on tolerance and understanding…

    I would like to ask Muslims here how they deal with the fact that their own writings say that Mohammed did some terrible things. In fact, these things are the same incidents used to make this silly video and every other “anti-Islam” video out there (as well as books). The fact is that your prophet did things that if done by others against Muslims would bring immediate condemnation…. I am trying to say this as nice as I can. I am mystified by the fact that Muslims will not critically discuss Mohammed’s wars on his neighbors or talk about the consequences of the slander against non-Muslims in the Quran. Do they think these are not a major factor in the unease that non-Muslims have with Islam?

    Please don’t start the “islam means peace” or “Muslims / Mohammed only acted in self-defense” stuff because if you do I am going to start posting links to hadith.

    The fact is that Muslims never take responsibility for their actions and never admit that the Quran is filled with hate and that their dear prophet waged brutal, unprovoked war on his neighbors. If they cannot get the basics right, what can we expect?

    So, Allahu (I address you because you are the most vocal Muslim here) tell me why I should respect a person like you that worships a god that says all non-Muslims are lower than animals? Tell me why we should respect a people that say “peace be upon him” after the name of a man that killed, plundered, tortured, enslaved men women and children and raped captives”

    As Red says, you need to read your own writings, not the sanitized fairy tale versions that you always mention in these comments. Islam is not what you say it is, or what you want it to be, it is what the Quran and hadith say and/or it is what Muslims do. In either case, it is not nice.

    By the way, did you notice the little Muslims kids carrying “behead those who insult the prophet” signs in Sidney, Australia, last week. Real nice.

  116. In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

    You are NOT ALLOWED to tell me re-read my book, Kafir. And you should know our god was their(Christianity and Judaism) god but now it isn’t and there is no religions but Islam. You live in prostitution and whorehouses and think like that about Islam and you never can prover your first paragraph and you just rattling as before!

    Where are those many Americans have a dislike towards Israel? Oh, they prepared voting a president to serve holy Israel better!

    Research? I have read many of grave American books against Israel. I advice you to read “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” by John Mearsheimer.

    What you chattering? Nonsense..

    you reap the benefits of advances such as technology, medicine, transportation, etc. Not, you are begging us for holy oil…

    Oil-begger:
    You and like you know the world an eternal brothel which you think you can drink, copulate, play and watch movies forever..

    kactuz:
    The noble Quran/29/46:
    “And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.””

    The noble Quran/2/190:
    “Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.”

    When or where did Muhammed(peace be upon him) some terrible things? You are only saying nonsense what Xtans and Jews saying for more than 14 centuries. Muhammed(peace be upon him) warred only on behalf of the religion of Allah. And he(peace be upon him) had to do.

    Others never conceive the religion of Allah while it descended by Allah in INTACT words to gospel the real life…

  117. Please stop insulting the world with your prostitution in the west remarks. Everyone know that the Muslim world has all the same social ills as the whole rest of the world. Prostitution, unwed mothers, rape and abuse of women, murder, robbery etc. People are people.

    And there are many religions besides Islam. You believe the others are not true- but that does not mean the other religions don’t exist because you don’t believe in them. Most of the world does not believe in Islam but it still exists.

  118. Unfortunately

  119. Allahu Akbar…when the companions of the prophet went and disemboweled the poetess that had her baby sleeping next to her, who had written defamatory poetry against the prophet…then came back and told him what they had done…what was his reaction? To judge them as murderers and punish them accordingly? To disassociate himself from then on because, at the very least, they had committed a heinous crime? Tell me, Allahu Akbar….what did the prophet do or say when receiving this news.

  120. I’m very thankful Allahu here wasn’t the first Muslim I met. Wow.

  121. WHY?

  122. Coolred38:
    The noble Quran/66/1
    O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    The prophet was whom Kuffar strewed tripe of sheep on him while he welcame them many times. How much do you want to know about my prophet?

    Oil-bigger:
    Zip it up, lady

  123. Sandy:
    You kidding me, gal? Go see STATISTICS regarding rape and abuse in your holy cities and girls for sales in Russia and USA as well as nice red light districts in Netherlands and Germany.

    Excuse me for saying that you are descendant of those Greeks considered women to be objects of pleasure and amusement. This view was articulated in the classical texts most unambiguously:
    We take harlots for pleasure, lovers to care for our daily health, and wives to give us legitimate children.

    You non-Muslim arguing about rape? Happy!!!

    what a silly word, robbery?? We cut hand of robbers while you show holiness of robbery in your literature and movies. You stupid? I do not think that stupid!

    What is feminism? That women are free to choose prostitution or not?! That the so-called clause existed in your contitution which women can be president, but never have couldn’t?! The feminism is that leaders abuse women to work hard in place of men with half salary to promote black Capitalism?!!!! While In Islam women have nothing to do with outdoor-affairs and has no responsibilities but love their lovers at home? While in Islam whoever look badly at women would be SCOURGED. While in Islam when a Muslim man commits rape has no punishment but DEATH. Where is the real feminism performing today?

    The noble Quran:
    “Do you ever rethink?”

  124. Sandy:
    You kidding me, gal? Go see STATISTIC regarding rape and abuse in your holy cities and girls for sales in Russia and USA as well as nice red light districts in Netherlands and Germany. Excuse me for saying that you are descendant of those Greeks considered women to be objects of pleasure and amusement. This view was articulated in the classical texts most unambiguously: “We take harlots for pleasure, lovers to care for our daily health, and wives to give us legitimate children”. what a silly word, robbery?? We cut hand of robbers while you show holiness of robbery in your literature and movies. You stupid? I do not think that stupid!

    What is feminism? That women are free to choose harlotry or not?! That the so-called clause existed in your contitution which women can be president, but never have couldn’t?! The feminism is that leaders abuse women to work hard in place of men with half salary to promote black Capitalism?!!!! While In Islam women have nothing to do with outdoor-affairs and has no responsibilities but love their lovers at home. While in Islam whoever look badly at women would be SCOURGED. While in Islam when a Muslim man commits rape has no punishment but DEATH. Where is the real feminism performing today?

    The noble Quran:
    “Do you ever rethink?”

  125. @Aafke- i have to disagree with your “unfortunately” of course. But I do despair of the way the orthodoxy of things developed. Coolreds example of a story for example. I don’t believe it for a minute but that requires rethinking the whole role of hadith and people in general are too scared to do that. Though honestly what they’re afraid of I can’t guess. Finding out that Allah actually IS Benificent and Merciful- as they say all the time while simultaneously believing and excusing horrific things? Thereby allowing the Islamic world to focus on developing and becoming an example of how to live instead of having hurt feelings and reasons to kill and hurt and oppress people all the time? I don’t understand the choice.

  126. Allahu Akbar…Im sorry but I do not need you to teach me a thing about the prophet. I could give you a lesson or two if you would like…it seems you might benefit from a few.

  127. Sandy…what you believe or not is entirely up to you…but belief or lack of does not affect the truth of something.

  128. 😉
    Hum, yes the hadith, and the biography of Mohammed… there’s a lot more nasty stuff in there besides the cowardly murder of Asma bint Marwan. You are right, either these stories are the truth, and Allah and his sidekick Mohammed are a couple of very nasty buddies, or…. you could say that all nasty hadith are untrue and should be taken out of the books. But then you would have to go all the way and sanitize the Quran as well, leaving you with a very small book.
    Don’t get me wrong, I am all for it. But considering that Islam is based on Christianity, plagiarizing large parts of the bible, and the bible is just as nasty as the Quran… I can only come to the conclusion I’ve come to.
    I wish we could sanitize the Abrahamic religions.

  129. Sandy, You know what I think about religious leaders, they don’t want people to develop. They don’t want people to be prosperous. They want worldly power, and it’s much easier to rule people who are ignorant and poor. There’s always the danger with education that people start to think.
    I bet the Muslim leaders all got a hard one when they were successful in getting the mobs on the street, smashing their own towns, killing innocent people, must have given them a real high.
    And to get people to be that stupid you have to keep them ignorant, badly informed, uneducated, and religious bigots.
    And for that you need a religion which is full of righteous murder, incitement to the killing of the ”other”, and, apparently, misogyny and suppression of women.
    The result is darkness and suffering.

  130. @Coolred,
    Not clear why that comment was directed to me. It more aptly applies to you in this example. There’s actually very little evidence at all this is a true story. It has massive holes in it and is viewed and has been viewed by many scholars even as a fabrication. No strong line of transmission. Nothing that would satisfy any kind of scholarly standard- and by that I include secular standards as well. It simply doesn’t hold up.

    @Aafke, we’ll have to agree to disagree. But on a pragmatic level we mostly agree.

  131. I do agree about people using religion to keep people ignorant and maintain power over them. When in the history of the world has this not been happening somewhere? 😥

  132. Sandy, it’s fun sparring a bit with you though, because besides being religious you are very clever and rational. 😈

    It’s not just the clerics who like people to be ignorant sheep, I also know people who don’t want to learn, don’t want to grow, and not even want to think for themselves. Trying to get out of any kind of responsibility, even for their own actions.
    Complete laziness…
    For them religion is a godsend…
    😉

  133. Sandy, if we are speaking of truth in stories then there is very little true about Mohammed himself. It is ironic that anything depicting him as less than honorable and saintly is written off as unreliable but by the same breath anything that does so is tatamount to sacred. I’m well aware of the ridiculousness of Hadith and transmission nonsense….but those are not the only source for learning about Islamic history. Not all Muslims stuck with Hadith and never saw fit to go beyond.

  134. Allahu:

    Your absolutely right first you must learn to read, then comprehend before re-reading the holy terror that is the Koran and it’s compliments as it is soooooooooooo………incomplete. Wait………..no, it is just another one of those contradictions. You know……………… the infallible book that is fallible, the complete book that isn’t complete, the protect book ……..oh wait a goat ate that page. Damn so much for Allah’s omnipotence…..:twisted:

  135. Coolred, i found this info that might correct your attitude and understanding of what is authentic hadith and what is forgery.

    Authentic Hadith is the transmitted hadîth whose chain is continuous through transmission of an accurate sane memorizer on authority of an accurate sane memorizer till its termination without being eccentric or flawed.

    Is there a method more precise and meticulous than this?

    There is no nation in the entire history that took care of reporting events and their verification as the Muslims have done. The Western Orientalist Bernard Lewis notes that

    “From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. “Traditional science”, as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.”

    Now as for your horrible allegation against the prophet, it is evidently false by this account –> The story of the killing of Asma’ bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa’d in Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir and by the author of Kinz-ul-‘Ummal under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa’d, Ibn ‘Adiyy and Ibn ‘Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn ‘Adiyy mentions it in his book Al-Kamel on the authority of Ja’far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu’abi on authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, and added that

    …this isnâd (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.

    It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in Al-‘Ilal and is listed among other flawed reports.

    So according to its isnâd, the report is forged – because one of its reporters is notorious for fabricating hadîth. Hence, such a story is rejected and is better off being put into the trash can.

    Now let’s see an AUTHENTIC HADITH (refer the definition up there somewhere)

    Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, “Shall we kill her?” He said, “No.” I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle.

    The Prophet(P) refused to kill a woman who did intentionally try to poison him, but ill-meaning people, by using a fabricated story, wants us to believe that he ordered the killing of a woman who only abused him verbally. (note: in Islam a women can only be put to death if she commited murder as crime, for murder is (both for men and women) death punishment in islam),

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Messenger of God (peace be upon him) saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.

    Due to this prohibition, scholars of Abu Hanîfah’s madhâb (school of thought) have stated that apostate women are not to be killed because the Prophet(P) forbade the killing of women, and since the prohibition is general it includes apostate women.

    Even after the Prophet’s demise, his Sunnah remain preserved by the Muslims:

    Abu Bakr advised Yazid: “I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camel except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”

    As for an earlier discussion somewhere up there, honor killing has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with backward culture because evidently this practise can be seen carried out mostly in Pakistan, India (mostly Hindus), and notably in Central and South America.

    As for Kactuz, your hate towards Muslims is so boring, it gets old! Time and again you misquote the Quran and even forged your own verse (remember when you said something about FGM being stated in the Quran).

  136. Bigstick, your last comment is just childish. The excuse of a goat ate that page is used by kids when it comes to incomplete homework. Never heard it being use about the Quran. No contradictions, just need to understand the science of reading. Did you fail your history class? Because you have a knack at lumping in and jumbling up stories without following historical context nor chronologies.

  137. Just thought I might help you out by giving a definition of chronology.

    chro·nol·o·gy   [kruh-nol-uh-jee]
    noun, plural chro·nol·o·gies.
    1.
    the sequential order in which past events occur.
    2.
    a statement of this order.
    3.
    the science of arranging time in periods and ascertaining the dates and historical order of past events.
    4.
    a reference work organized according to the dates of events.

    So for example, when the Quran says “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (2:190) why you say would a Noble Quran be so violent and commanding killings. Well, lets have a look at the historical context (the verse itself should suffice as an explanation, fight those who FIGHT you, but hey why not explain more) 1400 years ago, when the Noble Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, it was revealed during times of hostile wars. The Muslims fought almost all of the 360 Pagan Arab tribes and the tribes of the Jews and Christians as well. Fighting the offending disbelievers was part of the Muslims’ routine in dealing with the disbelievers.

    Taken from a dictionary online, and this website
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/laws_of_murder.htm

  138. Oh good, we get to play “quote the Quran”. OK, fine, here are some verses for you:

    Quran 9:123 – O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

    Quran 47:35 – So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of [the reward of] your deeds.

    Quran 48:29 – Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful (harsh) against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

    Quran 9:29 – Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

    Quran 9:111 – Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed.

    And so on…. Why don’t Muslims ever quote these verses? They don’t sound very peaceful to me. there are about 600-700 verses in the Quran that denigrate non-Muslims yet you pretend Islam is about love and peace. You tell us it is “just a few” radicals when the discrimination and violence against non-Muslims is generalized — and getting worse. Once again, it is not hard to see where the hate and violence we see today in Islam comes from….

    You know, I could forgive the hate in the Quran if Muslims were honest about these verses and others. But no…

  139. Allahu, how can you say “When or where did Muhammed (peace be upon him) some terrible things?”

    Please… Come on… Open your eyes… read you own texts!! The aggression and violence is everywhere, page after page.

    So let’s talk about your prophet. The truth is that, according to the ahadith, Islam’s great prophet attacked villages and caravans time after time. Tabari says Mohammad personally participated in 26 raids and sent out another two dozen in which he did not go. Quote: “The military expeditions (Ghazawat, literally raid) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven.” Tabari IX:118 “The armies and raiding parties sent by the Messenger of Allah between the time he came to Medina and his death (ten years) was forty-eight.” Tabari IX:115. The accounts tell of the plunder and taking slaves, of giving captured women to the Prophet’s men. The writer was especially proud of the raids where the caravans and villages were taken by surprise. Oh yes, about the ‘bloodless’ capture of Mecca (Makka), perhaps the writer above thinks the people that were killed by order of Mohammad, including the famous ‘singing girls’, were strangled rather than cut to pieces with a sword. This, I guess, would make it technically ‘bloodless’.

    Here is one of many incidents: I quote: Ibn ‘Aun reported: …The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. Muslim Book 019, Number 4292 – also in Bukhari Then he let his men rape the captives. Soon after this the infamous “affair of the necklace” with Aisha happened, which has led to little girls who were raped being stoned to death for zina because they didn’t have the four witnesses. You, Mohammad and Allah must be so proud.

    Here is a narrative from al-Bukhari 14: 585 – It is related from Anas ibn Malik, “When the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went out with us on a raid against some people, he would not let us attack until after daybreak but would wait. If he heard the adhan. he refrained from attacking them, but if he did not hear the adhan, he would attack them.” He said, “We went out to Khaybar and arrived there at night. In the morning when he did not hear the adhan, he rode out and I rode behind Abu Talha and my foot was touching the foot of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. They came out towards us carrying their spades and buckets. When they saw the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, they said, ‘Muhammad! By Allah, Muhammad and the army!’ When the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw them, he said, ‘Allah is greater! Allah is greater! Khaybar is destroyed. When we alight in the yard of a people, it is a bad morning indeed for those who have been warned.’ ”

    Do you understand what the traditions say? Mohammed attacks peaceful villages by surprise, time after time. He kills, he plunders their homes, he takes their crops and livestock, he enslaves men and women, he tortures sometimes, he lets his men rape — and you just can’t understand simple words.

    As to his mercy, here is a link to some pages about what happened to critics of Mohammad. It is a Muslim site and they proudly announce the cruelties done to those who opposed your prophet, even when they were peaceful and said nothing but the truth. But then again, the truth is a crime in Islam, if it is against Islam.

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

    Remember, if you quote one nice verse, I can quote many many more that say the opposite. It may be that you really are unaware of these things, given that Muslims just can’t seem to find anything bad about Islam in their writings.

    Would somebody explain to me how a person, an honest person, can read the Quran and hadith and not see the hate and violence that seeps out of the pages, staining them with the blood of innocents who died because of a god that (supposedly) wrote such cold, brutal words? Or maybe somebody could explain where exactly is the “mercy” that is mentioned in every Surah? The Quran says Allah is merciful, but it seems to skip the details. What verses describe this mercy? It is roasting the unbelievers skins to they peel? Is it the cutting off fingers and toes? Amputating hands and feet? is it pouring boiling oil down a person throat?

    See Allahu, the devil can quote scripture, too (In case you don’t know, that was from the Bible).

    Lets not do this too often ok. I hate these long postings and this one could be a book, given the material kindly provided by Mohammed and the companhions. In a way, the Quran and hadith are Allah’s gift to infidels.

  140. Kactuz, you are so boring – going on about the very same topic again and again. And you lie. You keep saying that Muslims don’t address the issues you are ranting about. Well, I for one and others have replied to you countless times in the past years and do you know what happens? It gets totally ignored by youu and it goes through the hollow head.

    And then you bring up the same, same topic once more. Why do people stop responding to you? Because its is simply no use. However much it is explained to you, you and people like you, can never get it. And why? Because the reason you go on and on is not to understand and learn and stick it in your head but to spew your hatred all around.

    You are a hater. Keep your hatred to yourself because you are soooo boring and really your comments are so stale.

  141. What is feminism? That women are free to choose prostitution or other jobs TO PLEASE MEN?! Feminism is that the so-called clause existed in your constitution which women can be president, but never have couldn’t?! The feminism is that abuse women to work hard in place of men with half salary to promote black Capitalism?!!!! While In Islam women have nothing to do with outdoor-affairs and has no responsibilities but love their lovers at home? While in Islam whoever look badly at women would be SCOURGED. While in Islam when a Muslim man commits rape has no punishment but DEATH.

  142. ALLAHU-AKBAR

    NON-MUSLIMS OUGHT TO BE DECAPITATED OR BE UNDER OUR AUTHORITY

    PLease do not write comments in capitals, it’s against the blog rules because it’s rude and disrespectful. Comments all in capitals will be deleted.
    Moderator

  143. Ok- at this point I’m thinking Allahu Akbar’s either a troll or an unbalanced person (or both). GIven his obvious violent streak – I’m really hoping he’s not actually even a Muslim- and I wonder if he’s anyone who really believes in God because any God-fearing person should be afraid to say such a violent thing, but we’ll probably never really know.

    Coolred. Sorry even by most Muslim scholarly standards, or any standards that story just doesn’t hold up- whatever you think of the record-keeping in general.

    Mrs. Bawazir you pretty accurately described the “science” of hadith. However, I don’t actually think it’s a very good predictor of accuracy. Peoples intentions might have been good- but it is very likely those methods would still have a high degree of inaccuracy. Certainly no scholars in any other field would rely on those types of methods because of how inaccurate they can be. However they are at least an initial filter for what can be true or not true. I realize this isn’t the orthodox position. But many of us aren’t orthodox.

    Sarah, I agree about Jay- who I actually thinks means well, but I too have in the past addressed all these kinds of issues regarding the Quran and I’m not going there again.

  144. Might as well cut off my head then, you intolerant follower of the religion of peace. I’ll never submit to such people like you.

  145. That is not a good thing to say, AA and Islam never taught us that – nowhere. You are bringing down your own religion through your emotions. Without insulting any religious figures, maybe your statement does more harm than those people who make ignorant “movies”.

    Please do be careful about what you comment.

  146. Mrs Bawazir, *Is there a method more precise and meticulous than this?*

    Yes there is: writing it down while Mohammed is speeching. Or even better: having Mohammed himself writing it own in his own hand and preserving it to this day. People did write in his day and age.

    The worst method is oral repetition. Ever played Chinese whispers? A sentence can’t go round a group of people without becoming completely distorted by the time the last person hears it in 15 minutes.

    You can do it even worse by writing it down a few generations later, by people who have their current rulers to please.

    On the other hand, the fact that the hadith, quran, and the biography by Ibn Ishaq are all in agreement about the actions of Mohammed, (and his sidekick Allah), engaging in, and endorsing of: enslaving people, raping women, attacking unsuspecting villages without warning, poisoning wells, destroying other people’s kaaba’s, assassinating poets, murdering women in the midst of their children, or having old ladies torn apart by camels, torturing people to find their gold, etc. etc. Does seem to point at a group of very unpleasant thugs and a leader who engages, endorses and profits by actions which we call now heinous crimes.

  147. If there is one thing I have seen on this thread is religion has and still does cause hatred while professing love and understanding. It would be wonderful if the adage to treat others as you would like to be treated was followed by everyone. Sadly. that is not so. Instead humans have used religion with the fear of punishment to control human nature, That is sad commentary on the state of the world in the 21st century.

  148. A lot of comments got eaten by spam again. I took them out except the duplicate ones.
    There is a bug somewhere with the spam filter, comments get eaten, and it may be a few hours until Carol or one of the moderators sort them out. So if your comments does not show up, don’t write duplicate comments, they will be taken out of spam.

    Moderator

  149. Allahu,
    *NON-MUSLIMS OUGHT TO BE DECAPITATED OR BE UNDER OUR AUTHORITY*

    Thank you for being honest. And for making clear to all non-muslims why we should dislike, ridicule and curtail Islam, why we should never give in to Muslims, why we should never give Muslims anything, and why Muslims are not deserving of respect.

    I am sure all Muslims on this blog are really happy with you right now.

  150. Crantode, religion causes hatred because it’s in their holy books!
    Enslave , rape, kill all others.
    It’s in the books!
    What do you expect?

  151. The holy Quran:
    “You never rethink and you never believe in”.

    I really do not know how you tattling such things that you have no info about. Islam is a religion for all human together and the completer whole religions fallen by Allah. A religion respect women and feminity a man who looks badly at a women should be lashed as a raper man has no sentence but death. There is no red light streets to sell girls in Islam as well as inexistence of brothel to please men. But you misguided feminism by capitalists hearten women to work hard in place of men with half salary to promote themselves. But you misguided feminism by government hookers who issued a clause regarding that women can be president of USA but never they could. But you misguided feminism by pimps who tell you women are free to be whores or other else…

  152. @AA – You believe in Islam and that is good. Your belief is firm and that’s great, Why do you care if others like it or not. No islam is not for everyone, everyone is free to make a choie to select an option that makes them at peace.

    your choice does not have to be everyone’s choice , just like their choice does not have to be yours. don’t worry about what people say or do or speak, you are not the guardian of islam youare a follower. let everyone and anyone do what they want , you do what you have to .

    for some islam may be everything for other it’s bad, so what we are are keepers/protectors/saviors of the religion, we are mearly adherents/followers to a particular belief system. if you beleive, good for you, if it makes you happy good for you, whatever the religionmay be keep it to yourself and god. i can’t understand the conflict in this.

  153. AA – you need to separate the American people from the policies or action of the American government. You’ll find that many Americans have totally differing views.

  154. Crantode: Your comment states it all so well. I completely agree with you.

    “If there is one thing I have seen on this thread is religion has and still does cause hatred while professing love and understanding. It would be wonderful if the adage to treat others as you would like to be treated was followed by everyone “

  155. Mrs. B:

    Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934)

    Narrated Aisha ‘The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept
    under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.”

    Now, now I know what you are going to say …………..that isn’t authentic but anything (at least for this moment until something else come along and all of a sudden a hadith is authentic). I feel like I am dealing with politicians when I discuss Islam with mulsims they change their stories to suit their need and have so many sources to use to contradict each other to try to get their way and then they become an intolerant hate group which then follows the worst of the doctrine which wasn’t suppose to be that way until it was suppose to be that way. I have grown to believe that all moderate mulsims are nothing more than gradualists.

    Next,

    Practicing Islam is impossible without the sunna, because the Quran doesn’t explain anything about the Islamic rituals or sharia and refers Muslims to take Mohammed’s example, which only comes through his hadiths (Q.59:7).

    Next you will excuse me as I am more in line to believe the works of Ignaz Goldziher and I advocate for scepticism to include the middle eastern often made up version of history.

  156. Islam is certainly not for everybody.
    Women for instance.

    Women are much better off with Wicca, more fun, great respect for being a woman, instead of being a subhuman, and very female friendly, candles, incense, and no injuctions to kell everybody who doesn’t believe in Wicca.
    Really, if you really think you need an invisible friend in your life, why choose a religion which is clearly lying about you as a woman? Which takes away your human rights, which makes you into chattel?

  157. Please read the Sira of the Prophet by Ibn Ishaq…all these stories are in there and muslims did not think twice about them back in the day. It was only centuries later that muslims started sanitizing Islam and doing away with the more violent aspects of it…but even then they still didnt remove those supposedly weak hadith. They are still there for anyone to read…they are just labeled weak now but even a half hearted search into the first books describing the prophet and his actions back then will falsify this weak claim. Poets were the bane of his existence. How many of them recited against him when he raided or killed or just refused to cowtow to his heavy handed measures to be lord over everything? How many times did he ask his men…who will rid me of that (poet/poetess)? and then that person was murdered. Oh but they must all be false cause they paint the prophet in a bad light…but those things are written in YOUR books by YOUR early historians that are taught in YOUR religious classes and in YOUR universities etc..and by yours I mean arab/muslims because western muslims seem to believe there is argument there while arabs do not argue about such things. I never ever heard arabs argue over half the crap that western muslims try and argue or explain away because they saw no need too. It just was…why argue it. The only time arabs will argue it is when they are some damn talk show or some such thing and are addressing a western audience…then they start hemming and hawing and making excuses or changing the language to suit the delicate sensitivities of the west who still wants to believe Islam is Peace.

    Sandy or whomever disagrees…all I can say is read…read…and read some more. You can say weak this, or place and time or whatever the hell you want to say to make you feel better about your choice…but those early historians wrote it down, others learned from them, and it was never ever argued against as weak etc until they realized the personality and character of the prophet was being thrown into question…then the sanitizing of islam came into play.

    I might add that what those books say in arabic..and what they are translated into english as saying are far different. Even the quran translated says something different in many cases. So anyone learning and defending islam who has only ever read english information on it…sorry but you are defending a completely different religion/prophet etc than the one the arabs have been defending and following for centuries.

  158. Also, the moderator tells Allahu Akbar to stop using capital letters cause it is rude and disrespectful…completely ignoring the fact that he calls for decapitating all kafirs. WTF??? Why is the guy even still allowed to post on this blog? He calls for fucking murder but gets a kick in the pants for using CAPITAL LETTERS???

  159. Coolred is right, even the Ibn ishak’s version we have today is already sanitized, the mind boggles when you think of what they took out which was still worse!

    I have had Arab speaking people explain to me that the Arabic does say something else often than thee English translations, and the translations are sanitized as well.

    I think one of the reasons Western Muslims are in the habit of downplaying islam’s nasty core is because they’re used to dealing with religion that way; Christians have been forced to do it for centuries, as the church lost power, they had to play nice. So now all the nasty bits in the bible have to be explained away, and the Western Muslims do the same with Islam. The excuses are the same too.
    Of course no religion is ever really sanitized, as soon as you come into an area where Christianity is in power you see the mask falling off and the full evil of religion coming out again.

    Look at the Christian right in America, they cannot wait (and have in some instances already done so) to take away women’s rights, women’s right to control their reproductive organs, women’s right to equal pay, women’s right to healthcare, women’s right of bodily integrity, they are trying to change the language to put the blame of rape back onto the victims, the right of gay people to live a normal life, the right of people to believe in another religion, the right of children to recieve a decent, scientific education, free from ancient myths and superstitions, it never stops…

    Look at Africa, that’s where nasty Christians and nasty Muslims are playing their power out. That’s where you see what these religions are really all about, without the sanitation.

  160. About the capital letter comment, I for one do like to see AA expose his nasty character and his evil mind in full force, I like to know who it is who comes to visit here.

    I for one would not want to be deprived of this enlightening insight into his nasty, black, evil, little soul.

  161. And he only said what the real Islam says,,,
    The un-sanitized version…

  162. Aafke…western muslims generally speaking, convert to Islam before learning the nitty gritty so to speak. I have talked to so many of them who did not even know beyond the basics of Islam before converting (myself included)…and barely seemed interested in learning more after being made aware of it. Those early historians had no trouble relating what the prophet did, how he did it etc because they saw no reason to hide it, sanitize it. It was the way of the arabs back then…to raid caravans (and not in self defense or whatever excuse is given…none of those related tales start with…then the prophet came back from defending himself in a raid…no they say the prophet returned from a raid), to view women as property and trade them like property, to own slaves and use them for sexual pleasure…it’s all there. No sanitizing, no need too. It just was. Western muslims get antsy when they hear the prophet married a 6 year old and try to make excuses for it so they arent supporting a pedophile instead of a perfect man they want to believe in…yet there was NO argument about the age of Aisha until Islam started making its way west and into cultures where a 50 year old marrying a 6 year old was found to be disgusting…not religious. Religious Arab scholars did not argue her age ever…until they were put on the defensive and had to do some quick double speak to make him seem more palatable to his western audience. I repeat…there was NO argument about her age until more recently. Western muslims refuse to believe he was what his own historians show him to be…a typical arab man that took advantage of a captive audience and forced his beliefs on others…that raided caravans, married women as he chose, even coveting other peoples wives, married a child cause god said he could, who murdered whole towns of men while keeping their women as slaves and trading them off…while allowing his men to have sex with them…while he himself had sex with them as well…who had apostates murdered (and not cause they caused dissension but because they spoke against HIM)…the list goes on and on…and it is all there in HIS own historians books who saw no need to sanitize his life because they accepted it for what it was. Only today are muslims trying to change his history and make him to be a peaceful god fearing man that could do no harm…oh wait…that was Jesus. I see what they are doing there.

  163. God comment Coolred, you are right, they thought it was great how Mohammed killed everybody who disagreed with him, had sex with every women he fancied, and killed off entire villages. And now they have to tone it down a bit, because that doesn’t gain followers in the Wicked West.
    Jeshammed… interesting idea…..
    At least Christians don’t murder at random when anybody draws Jesus… You know, coolred, you might have hit on a very good idea here, Jeshammed, love and peace, all around.
    Pity I can’t really see it taking root.

  164. Ooops, Freudian slip maybe? I meant ”Good comment Coolred”!

  165. The sad SAD thing is ignorance now days is by CHOICE. The information is out there. The internet is full of crap but it’s also full of information that can easily be verified through outside sources. There is no need to defend the indefensible when you can look for yourself and stop accusing hateful muslim haters from corrupting the text or making stuff up. It’s there. Go look for yourself. You have no excuse to be ignorant about that which you defend. Just to claim..oh it’s a lie is b.s. when you offer nothing up as proof that it is a lie except…our prophet would never do that cause he was kind, loving and even loved his enemies. Sorry but the guy had no enemies because they didn’t last long around him. Period.

  166. radha
    I never want such pagans convert to religion of Allah. I am only defending the best of religions__the aim of creating of human.

    ….. & Coolred38
    How nice you support “free speech” then you want AmerBedu to censor what I said about my religion(the capital letter comment)… Is this the holy free speech…

    I love your IDIOCY, ……

    Dear Bedu
    I do recognize the people of America from US government as my leaders do. As I said before we love those Americans oppose US policy and never vote such pigs to be president… But where those Americans? Show me please.

    Edited bad word
    Moderator

  167. Books are written by man and organized religion is a problem because of interpertation of the what is written. It is a means to control human nature with the promise of salvation. if you follow all the rules! Many people like organized religion because they do not have to think. They just wish to follow and not have to take responsibility for their own actions. That is what I see happeneing especially in the Middle East at this time. One last thing what better way to keep the blame for people in your nation who are poor and with little hope for a better life from blaming the government . than to feign insult and have the people not think of who really is causing the problems that they have.

  168. Dear Bedu
    Is this in your constitution which forums should ban who tell people about his religion but should not ban someone who apply “WTF” and “FUCKING” on that(as Coolred38 used above)? I don think so!

  169. Allahu Akbar…you insisted people get decapitated..that is murder. So fuck you. FUCK YOU if you can’t take a little heat concerning your so called peaceful religion. If you think your religion is worth killing for…start with yourself.

  170. Not to mention you called people pigs…freedom of speech is a two way street…your prophet was a war mongering, slave trading, womanizing, child rapist. See how that works? Get over yourself. If you can dish it..then by god you can take it.

  171. crantode
    Hey, …… Look at what you tattled above:
    “who are poor and with little hope for a better life”
    I think your English is weak! Do you know the meaning of poor?
    Poor people are they whose president says “WE NEED OIL”.

    And you MUST beg Mid-east to give you an slush inferior drop of holy oil forever.

    Comment edited
    Please refrain from calling people names, you are skating very close the edge. If you cannot discuss in a polite manner you will be put into moderation
    Moderator
    .

  172. ALLAHU-AKBAR – I noticed some of your posts and I do not believe that any god or diety would appriciate people losing their heads because they do not agree with the dogma of a religion. Anymore that it was a good thing when christians did years centuries ago. I believe that after the Enlightment people found better ways to show their disagreement. Just a thought. I would also ask why can you not question policy of a religion, was that not why humans were given the ability to reason. This argument that you can insult something is like the expression “Did you insult my mother,” used as a pretense to start a fight.

  173. Alahu-Akbar- How did you know I was vertically Challenged. Hum who is poor? There are many ways to be poor. One is not to be able to think for oneself, but that is only one way. As far as oil goes the Middle East makes a lot of money from oil, but in many of there nations the produce it they do not share it with the citizens of the country. May I ask you why you feel it necessary to try to insult people? It does not help you argument. The American President is a person who is looking for a different means of energy or perhaps he and others in America are keeping thier resources so when other run out the United States will have it to use. Who knows and stop being so angry. It make people not wish to have a conversation with you.

  174. Coolred, Would you really want to do that with Alahu-Akbar. Think of what you just wrote. This person got to you and made you angry. It is not worth losing your composure.

  175. Hey all, don’t forget we are talking about the right to have freedom of speech here so posters like Allahu-Akbar should not be stifled for saying something we don’t want to hear.

    Also remember that memorizing something has nothing to do with understanding or even thinking about what you have memorized. This is the problem for many Muslims. They are taught to memorize and not think about what they have learned but to follow blindly.

  176. Allahu-Akbar –

    Do you feel that “NON-MUSLIMS OUGHT TO BE DECAPITATED OR BE UNDER OUR AUTHORITY”

    or

    “No Muslims do not want violence as no Muslims permitted to use violence against any peaceful mankind. And read honestly what I write:
    The true it is the America is not that silly to jeopardize its reputation in the universe. But America is the religious puppet of Israel(Can you object that? NEVER) and because of that America never withdraws Israelite ambitions in UN and in any political circle. America support what(Israel) is murdering unarmed Muslims in their own nation. And the sacrosanct 9/11 happened. Then wasting grave population of marionettes…

    I swear that if America get far away from its Zionist leaders, Ummah(Islam world) may be peaceful with such a doll… ”

    The two statements, made by you in this comment thread, contradict each other.

    Others –

    There doesn’t seem to be much, if any, open minded dialog in this comment thread. Minds seem to have been made up, and the moderator’s call for tolerance is certainly not heard (actually, I am a believer in religious freedom, but do not believe that does or should equate with religious tolerance, so that does not surprise me). I do agree with one point that Allahu-Akbar (inadvertently) made – those of us in countries that use more energy than we produce should certainly work to eliminate our dependence upon imports of energy.

    And, speaking of energy, I hope that our blog hostess is recovering hers.

  177. Having a difference of opinion based on facts is not intolerance…it’s called thinking. I am always willing and accepting for someone to point out any mistakes that I make…unfortunately (for them) most Muslims do not know enough about their religion to do anything but defend mohammed at all costs. If anything they are the intolerant ones towards discussing anything but their sanitized peace and love version of Islam.

    btw freedom of speech is all well and good until it calls for the murder of people…which Allahu Akbar did. Therefore his freedom to say that should be curtailed because, while claiming people misunderstand his religion is fine, pointing out their so called mistakes is fine, calling for their death because they have different opinions is not and should not be accepted. That is not freedom of speech but incitement to murder.

  178. But I want to read what Allahu wants to write.
    To be sure, he’s nasty, but he does represent the nasty evil minority (hopefully) about whom this post was written.
    And he has a certain entertainment value, although on a very low level.
    I also second Coolred’s comment though.

    Allahu, you want to improve the world by beheading people? Then start with your own!
    Please!

  179. Cool Red … freedom of speech means just that. If he wants to call for someone’s death in words he should do so. If it means somebody might not watch him then that’s a good thing. The ‘non-Muslim we’ have been saying that freedom of speech is first and foremost and should not be stifled. Acting on those words is something different. You are calling for censorship here and as an American you have also been defending the American right to free speech. That’s all I’m saying. Words are one thing and action is another.

  180. …….. I do not love repeats. Try again
    ……………………………………………..

    Edited
    You are now in moderation. This means that your comments wil not go public until they are approved. Any decent comment you make will of course go through.
    Moderator

  181. Wendy…words often lead to action…we have witnessed fatally how words can lead to action among muslims. Telling someone they are going to hell for not believing or whatever reason is all well and good…I dont believe in Hell anyhow so who cares…saying people should be killed, murdered….how is that freedom of speech when among muslims that is often followed through on? You can’t yell fire in a crowded theater because people can be hurt by the reaction to that shout…people can also end up dead when a muslim says…they should be murdered for what they said. I dont see the in this case where words mean one thing and actions another when one often follows the other in the Islamic world.

  182. Allahu Akbar..if you can call for the murder of people..I can say fuck you. Get over it.

  183. We all know that words can lead to action. That’s what started this topic in the first place and we are standing firm on our right to say something that we know will cause problems. Having said that how can you turn around and say that something can’t be said?

    I also said that if someone yells for murder perhaps they’ll be put on a watch list (this blog is widely read) and that’s all to the good is it not?

    Nip it in the blood before it happens. Sadly this should have been done in the case of the Aurora killer.

  184. Sandy, thanks for agreeing with me – at least this once 🙂 and I, too, will not go there.

    AA, I agree with what you are saying – that there are good Americans and that the only problem is the puppet goverment controlled by Zionists – and that is the problem.

    Coolred and others, I am politely asking you to stop speaking about our Prophet in a bad way. It may be easy for you to do so but for us it is hurtful. So kindly for the sake of peace, be nice. There is a way to express views without being nasty and that goes for AA too.

  185. Sarah…how am I being nasty? Everything I have said is in YOUR writings…just maybe glossed up to sound far nicer than they are…and sorry but I have to concur with Wendy. If I must concede that he has the right to call for murder…than I have the right to describe your prophet exactly as he was…all based on your writings…not some western effort to paint him in a bad light. Go read…then come back and tell me Im being nasty. Read Ibn Ishaq, read Ibn Hisham, Ibn Kathir…read any of those early historians who wrote it all down exactly as it happened…and had no reservations or qualms about it because it was all business as usual in their opinion. Nothing to gloss over, nothing to sanitize, nothing to hide because whatever the prophet did, he did as a man of god and that’s all the excuse you need.

  186. I have to agree with Sarah about manners. Many of the non-Muslims here spew hatred and it’s quite disgusting. There’s no need for it. Disagreement is one thing but some of what is said is not acceptable. I’m not supporting Islam nor any other religion but some of you are just quite awful in how you try and put your point across. If you were directing your comments to me I’d find it very difficult to remain civil.

  187. Sarah, There is no puppet government controlled by Zionists. History tells us the the difference between the Jewish people and the Muslim people is religion. People in the United Staes could care less about religious differences, but many in the United States look at attacks on citizens of the United States in the name of your god and get angry to say the least. If Americans were as evil as many of the people who follow Islam seem to think do you believe that there would not be retaliation on american soil. Why is it hurtful to have mean things said they are words and if ones faith is strong you should try to educate others not call them names as AA has or wish people to die. To use the f word is never productive and silly.

  188. The f word is just an adjective…and gets a point across. People think their feelings are the most important thing in a discussion…dont speak bad of my prophet cause it hurts my feelings. Why are your feelings the most important thing here? I have said absolutely nothing here that cannot be verified through Islamic text…the fact that I havent said it in nice pretty words that make you feel better about it is not my job. How do you paint a 50 year old man that married a 6 year old in a good light? How do you pretty that up so that muslims dont get their feelings hurt? How do you describe his caravan raids that were nothing more than gaining loot and slaves to empower and fill the muslim coffers in a way that makes it sound noble and reverent? How do you explain the fact that not only he kept slaves but parceled them out to his men and allowed them to have sex with them as they chose…and in some cases right after killing off all their men…as he himself did? Please tell me how I can write that down so that the facts still remain true…but that your tender feelings are not hurt? If I can do that then I might give it a shot…but your feelings are not high on my list of objectives just now when discussing islam and the prophet. Sorry.

  189. Coolred, take it – your words are nasty. I appreciate you telling me to “go read” but I have read. You have to understand something that those days are not like the days we live in.now. People fought battles – many battles and people got killed. Americans did the same to native Indians and African Americans but we wont go there. I am not defending violence but we cannot sit in this day and age and complain about days gone by. Their survival methods were different. We still fight but in different ways.

    Crantode, Americans are not evil and many Muslims do not beleive they are. I have already told AA about his words. Means words are hurtful to some, Crantode, some of us are more sensitive so its hard to take in. And yes US gov is controlled by zionists and many Americans will tell you that.

  190. Respect people’s feelings even if it doesn’t mean anything to you, it could mean everything to them …

    Leaving aside religion, we are one in humanity.

  191. Coolred, I am sorry that you had literature to read that did not sit well with you. I suggest you go read. The things you mentioned are not accurate. By the way, the one who has undergone severe pain will lash out in this way. You may have and that is why I worry about hurting your feelings.

  192. CC – another question. Why do you and others feel it’s so terribly necessary to repeat over and over again on topic after topic the same hatred? Are you going to change the mind of Muslims here? No, you are not. Cool Red has deep a deep personal dislike from her marriage experiences but that was all yesterday. Talk about sending bad messages and showing intolerance …..

    Maybe I should start raging about the disgusting pedophilia going on in the Catholic Church that started when the religion was born and still goes on today and is ‘wink, wink’ looked the other way by Catholic Church leaders. What about the pregnancy rate for nuns?

  193. Sarah, but that doesn’t count you know, ”those were different times” not if Muslims want to adhere to the rules of that time in this time, by beheading everybody they have a problem with because their prophet and his imaginary friend thought that a good idea in their time.

    Btw, stuff like enslaving and raping women has never been a good idea in any time.

    And if you want to uphold that ”different time” excuse (Christians are fond of that one too btw, so it looks a bit as if you are imitating the kuffaar), then you of course have to give up the claim the ”Islam is for all time and all people”.
    Which I would fully support.
    Islam is bad for our time and bad for most people.
    Hmmm, seems we are on the same side! :mrgreen:

  194. Hey pedophilia is disgusting anywhere it occurs…so if it disgusting in the catholic church then it has to be equally disgusting when a prophet does it. Right?

    Sarah…”those days”…when I read that I immediately know some excuse is coming along to explain away some barbarity or another. He was a prophet…these days or those days should mean absolutely nothing…he should have behaved in a way that was godlike…so to speak. Not raiding caravans…not marrying 6 year olds…not killing entire villages then divying up the remaining women as property to his men…not having sex with them that very night…not having poets killed or apostates or anyone that irritated him. Why am I being nasty for pointing this out when it is in YOUR islamically approved historical books that are taught in ALL Islamic universities etc and centers of learning? Why am I the nasty one when it is your prophet and his men that did these actions. And pointing out that others have done equally heinous things just proves that people are capable of doing the worst things to each other…whether from religion or not. So what? Hardly excuses the actions of a prophet.

    btw I do respect people when they deserve or earn it…I have not personally attacked anyone here…but I see no law or rule that says I have to respect what they believe…especially when I know it to be false.

    As for the oft repeated claim that I was hurt as a muslim this is why Im so against it…sorry …that’s just a copout. What does how I feel about it personally have to do with the facts as presented in YOUR books? I just said, our personal feelings about a matter shouldnt be up for discussion…just the facts.

  195. Oh no…I had a bad marriage to a disgusting man who called himself a muslim…therefore everything I say about islam must be false as it’s all coming from a sad and bitter place. What a sorry leap of logic that is. I will repeat…nothing I have said here cannot be verified by YOUR islamic texts. If Sarah or anyone chooses to believe THOSE text are corrupt or lies than possibly Sarah or anyone would care to call upon all Islamic Universities and centers of learning that use those texts and inform them they are using wrong information..and need to stop. Why am I being the nasty one for pointing out what is in YOUR books?

    And if your feelings concerning your religion are so delicate that a comment from me sends you into emotional turmoil…than I suggest you reevaluate your beliefs…because they are either tenuous at best…or based on false information. You deal with your feelings. It’s not my job.

  196. Coolred said, “Having a difference of opinion based on facts is not intolerance…”

    I was referring to the definition of religious tolerance. Actually, I found two definitions when I searched; one, “It means that, to be tolerant, one must accept all religions as equally valid and true;” the second, “It means that one must avoid oppressing or discriminating against persons whose religious beliefs happen to be different from yours.” (see http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintol1.htm#dict )

    I agree with the second definition; I do not agree with the first. So I think the two of us agree on that point.

    Regarding the tenor of the posts here; as a Buddhist, I believe that speech does create karma, and, with the freedom to say what we want, we should think seriously before we do so as our words do have consequences – for us as well as for others. I am trying to do so myself; what others do is up to them. And, as we are posting on a moderated blog, it is also up to the moderators as to whether our words stand, based on whatever criteria they define.

  197. Cool Red, I think you should have been addressing your comments to me and not Sarah. I was the one speaking to you about your bad marriage, freedom of speech and the constant Islam bashing in an very ‘less than calm’ way. Sarah is asking you to be polite and I actually find that you often have a lot of difficulty with that.

  198. Wendy…please point out where I was not polite. Citing incidents that the prophet participated in is not being impolite. Asking her to check Islamic sources if she needs validation is not being impolite. Expressing my opinion in a way that she or you or anyone doesn’t like doesn’t mean I’m being impolite just because you say so. Please explain to me how I can discuss these things, such as a 50 year old man who claims to be a prophet but marries a child, in a way that sounds polite to you (any you) when I see nothing about that scenario that requires politeness on my part but a heavy dose of “but times were different then” apologia from Muslims?

    Pointing out what islamic texts, that have been used for centuries as the basis for ALL islamic learning, have to say about the real prophet and not the whitewashed version often presented to the west is not Islam bashing….how does one even come to that conclusion unless one simply has no clue what those texts say…which is why I advise one to read. Simple really.

    And sorry for misdirecting my comments…they weren’t showing up properly for awhile and I couldn’t see what I had said to whom.

  199. Coolred I am sorry but when you use that word as an adjective it really does take away from your argument. i notice thaty ou said you had an awful marriage but any nationality andy relgion can produce a nasty mean person. I do not disagree with some of what you say but you have allowed a person who says hateful things to get to you.

  200. Sarah, I know there are those who say that the USA is controlled by Zionist but those are the same people who hate Muslims, and others. You see it is easy to blame a group that is different than you are or different then most others. This is one reason why we have so much unrest in the world today. Tellme how it is that you believe that the USA is controlled by Zionists. is it not strange that if they had so much power In the USA that we have never had a Jew as President, and I think we have only had three or four members of Congress, Individuals, that is what we should make our judgements on not people as a group. There are bad leader, bad Muslims, bad Jews, Bad Americand, and bad Christians. Do not paint everyone with the same brush, Be well and again I believe if we all treat each other like we would like to be treated peace would certainly follow.

  201. Cool Red … swearing, repeating the same stuff over and over for at least two years. Pointing out only the bad stuff. Calling people down.Why is it necessary to go on with this? Why debate the religion with those who are steadfast followers? Honestly, as much as I don’t like the religion I am sick to death of Islam bashing and of people trying to ‘educate’ people about things they do not want to hear. It’s not just you but sometimes I think people need to take a breath and say enough already. What really provoked me was your desire to have free speech cut off because you didn’t like what what said. Hmmmm………..

  202. Once again…how is responding to someone who said decapitate muslim haters with colorful language bad on my part? Should i have been polite to him and said well gee, Allahu Akbar, thats not a very healthy attitude you have there…lets see if we can change your attitude through healthy debate and tolerant dialogue? Sorry but asking for that sort of speech to be kicked off the blog is not surpressing free speech but rational speech.

    As far as repeating myself about issues you believe dont need repeating…again sorry but that is not for you or anyone else to decide. Islam exists, muslims routinely drag the rest of us into.their beliefs one way or another…so i have the right to repeat myself as long as they see fit to affect me and mine with their corrupted religion. Btw i do the same with Christians and the bible. Living in America means they constantly drag me into their corruptef beliefs as well…so i repeat myself with them too. Im fair like that.

  203. Oops…should have said irrational speech.

  204. Sarah:

    “Kactuz, you are so boring – going on about the very same topic again and again. And you lie. You keep saying that Muslims don’t address the issues you are ranting about. Well, I for one and others have replied to you countless times in the past years and do you know what happens? It gets totally ignored by youu and it goes through the hollow head”

    How does addressing Jay influence the issues with Muslims and their continued every changing tactics on what they are going to consider today’s verision of vile religion? How does it change Muslims who are creating problems? Just what are you doing to address the issues within your religion?

  205. So if a Muslim quotes the Quran or recites a story from the traditions, it is the glorious word of Allah and an example of the pure virtuous life of Islam’s prophet… I do the same, and it is, hummmm, errrr, boring.

    Yes, lord, save us from boring people.

    But the real issue is this, in my opinion: When a little 8-year old girl is taken from her home and given to a 50-something pervert as a wife, I am not responsible. I condemn this. I see this as depravity and wickedness. I will not, by omission or ignorance, support this or make excuses for this evil. I will not be one to look the other way when a child’s immature body is sacrificed on the altar of lust, because someone did it 1400 years ago and some god let it be recorded in writing considered to be sacred by so many.

    You can condemn this, or you can make excuses. You can say this is evil, or you can say that references to such acts is boring. Oh yes, lets not talk about this – nothing is more important that Muslims not being offended, not even the broken bodies of children.

    I would think that Allah, if you were a god, would have prevented such evil being recorded and attributed to a man considered to be a great example in all things. Either that, or Allah is foolish and naïve, or he just doesn’t care about little girls. Rather than face the issue, Muslims riot about a film that mentions this story.

    Where is the morality?

  206. You know, I could forgive the hate in the Quran if Muslims were honest about these verses and others. But no…

    No one is begging for your forgiveness 😉

    Kactuz, you are so boring – going on about the very same topic again and again. And you lie. You keep saying that Muslims don’t address the issues you are ranting about. Well, I for one and others have replied to you countless times in the past years and do you know what happens? It gets totally ignored by youu and it goes through the hollow head.

    True that Sarah, he is one BIG liar. He says we Muslims NEVER addresses those verses but we do but it just won’t penetrate his stubborn mind. In fact, I just did addressed one “violent” verse in the Quran and explained to him but instead of reading it, he went on his usual quoting out of context. It gets sooo old!

    Thank you for being honest. And for making clear to all non-muslims why we should dislike, ridicule and curtail Islam, why we should never give in to Muslims, why we should never give Muslims anything, and why Muslims are not deserving of respect.

    Aafke, you’re bigger than that, don’t let one troll cloud your judgement on the entire Muslims. You can’t possibly allow a maniac to shape your attitude towards us Muslims. Sandy and I and many many other Muslims are not calling for anyone’s beheading but we certainly are following our religion by the book, so to say.

    Islam is certainly not for everybody.
    Women for instance.

    I strongly disagree Aafke, as being a Muslim woman gives me the freedom I need 🙂 No don’t tell me I can’t prance around in a bikini, that’s not the only thing a women needs, there’s more depth to a woman than mere physical beauty on display. So you be you and I ll be a Muslim 🙂

    Practicing Islam is impossible without the sunna, because the Quran doesn’t explain anything about the Islamic rituals or sharia and refers Muslims to take Mohammed’s example, which only comes through his hadiths (Q.59:7).

    Bigstick, one of the rarest moments when I agree with you but yeah, I’d go with the authentic hadith rather than the one you like to conjure up. I mean, if I were going to curtail some kinda illness i have, I would refer to cures that are AUTHENTICALLY proven to be legit. same goes with the hadiths that actually shapes and moulds my life.

    Sarah, I love the way you handle yourself, if only I could be so calm and polite 🙂 AA, you lost my respect 100% for your poor choice of words, calling out murder is not Islamic. Sorry Aafke, but that is not the real Islam as you would love to believe. Have to disagree whole-heartedly with your false accusations on the prophet’s history of murder and sex etc, some re-reading is in order. Here is a great read by a Muslim Professor on Islamic History with reference to great WESTERN scholars (these scholars are not Muslims mind you but are some of the more notable scholars in Islamic history, not some drunkard Hitchens or anything like that). http://www.enjoyislam.com/books/islamic_books/the-biography-of-the-prophet-and-the-orientalists-volume-2.pdf

  207. Aafke Art/Coolred, you have a valid point in saying that muslims want to adhere to the rules of that time to this time. However, I was not talking about Muslims or Islam, I was talking about people. People do not follow the Islamic law 100% of the time. I just said that, that was how the situaton was at that time, that was order of the day. Usually people will write or talk about the bad things that creates interest, just as we do in the news today. How can we say that those things which happened were by people who adhered to Islamic law? How much do we know of the “good” thngs that happened at that time. Do you read about those?

    There were many enemies of the Prophet who did their best to discredit him – then and now.

    And by the way, Coolred, you mantra about the prophet marrying a 6 year old, even though she was not 6 (you can read Aafke’s research on this and many others), it was very common in those days to marry very young. It was the custom which we find strange today. So as I said, those days people did things differently. It is the not an excuse, it is a fact. We can say the very same things about the history of America and things that happened then.

    And please as Wendy said let us not repeat ourselves so much.

    Crantode, Why do people who hate Muslims say that America is controlled by Zionists? Whats the connection?
    Tell me Crantode , if it is really all that strange that USA never had a zionist president? Do you think that can show themselves openly. Banks are controlled by them, so is hollywood and entertainment, food industries …etc; ever heard the lyrics to music lately? And there are many zionists in the gov.

    I agree with you that there are bad leaders all over the world

    Bigstick1, I was just saying that Jay repeats himself, not to understand but to bash Islam. I have been hearing the same thing from him over the years even though it was explained to him many times over. There are no issues in my religion – it is just people like you who create issues.

    Have a nice day.

  208. It’s people who make religions. It’s people who choose from what people earlier made up in their life now, the problem is this invisible super imaginary friend which is claimed to have authored this immoral nonsense, and so weak people will think this is what they are supposed to do, eg stuff like ”killing all infidels”. It gives the total excuse for women and child abuse, etc. etc.
    So religions poison our morality.
    ”To get good people to do bad things you need religion”
    And I do not like the hypocrisy of the inane excuse ”that was another time”, while at the same time trying to recreate that ancient hell in our time.

    Coolred wasn’t insulting, she brought up examples from the Islamic holy texts and the oldest biography of Mohammed. The reason it is regarded as insulting is that what Mohammed did in his lifetime is pretty horrible.
    Ibn Ishaq wasn’t trying to undermineIslam, he was trying to write down this great biography, of his great example, the ”best” man that ever was.
    And that is in my opinion the point where one, as a rational human, needs to stand straight and face the consequences.
    And there you have it in a nutshell; this is the point where people turn atheist.
    Because the Abrahamic religions have nothing to teach us. If you are prone to evil they will corrupt you into somebody like Allahu, if you are a good decent human being you will be forced to forever twist and turn and make up excuses for your chosen religion, you will have to try and ignore the wicked parts, cherry pick whatever you can find which supports your far more advanced morality, and meanwhile you are the support for the extremist murderers, and every other crime committed in the name of your chosen religion.
    And a human with true morals, and a moral backbone, will not bow down cowardly but look the facts in the eye, and see that these books are evil, these men committed heinous crimes and immoral actions, Couple that with the utter lack of proof that there is anything with any goodness doing any intervention in this world, will come to the inevitable conclusion; there is no invisible friend, there are no inspired prophets, and from that moment on he/she sees these holy books for what they really are, the defectively remembered oral stories and myths of a very unpleasant group of ancient raiders, murderers and rapists, who used religion to bolster their hold over the people .

    Sarah, you know what happens if people follow Islamic law, they are doing it in several countries right now and they are not doing any good. Again, the Abrahamic religions are immoral, the laws based on these religions are also flawed, they are unfair, they are cruel, they are misogynist, they are unjust.

  209. And why do we rational people have to repeat the same comments? Because the religious never stop.
    They never leave us alone.
    They never stop killing the innocent, crying out for murdering those who do not think as they do, trying to ”convert” others into their covens, trying to get at other people’s children, trying to make women into a subhuman farm-animal, and the occasional murder of somebody who’s in their way.
    They never stop making this world a worse place.
    And so, until they do stop, we are forced by them to keep repeating the truth.

    Or as Christopher Hitchens said, (I am paraphrasing) ”They can play with their own toys, in their own homes, but they can’t come to my home and demand that I play with their toys., or that my children have to play with their toys.”

  210. PS, I cannot believe it was that common to marry pre-teen girls, Any healthy society depends on healthy grown up women to produce healthy offspring. Getting preteen girls pregnant causes a lot of sickly or dead babies, dead girls, or girls which have been torn up inside due to too early sex, or delivering a baby when their body’s are way too young.

    On the contrary, many ”primitive” people have very strict rules on births, they care greatly for the children and women, they get the best food, and woman are not supposed to have a baby with less than a two or three year interval, to give her body the chance to recover from the awful drain the production of a baby is. In the Polynesian Islands the husband sometimes even left the house.

    It’s a sign of deterioration of a society and it’s morals when the society doesn’t care anymore for the health of it’s women and children.

  211. Having a belief in something – a Creator or some super natural Being – is in our fitra and this is what makes people search for Him or something to belief in, to hold on to. Humans by nature do this.

    People like you have not found what you are looking for and since the Creator is the One Who guides whom He pleases, you feel a certain discomfort knowing that there are people who are indeed guided. You may think that living among the horses and beautiful gardens are all what you need but do not fool yourself; there is a need inside of you which makes you an angry person. It maybe with an envious heart that you tend to find faults with religion blaming it for anything bad that goes on.

    You tend to find pleasure when you find a “mishap” in religion and you search with certain obsession to find faults to harp on while you continue to look to be guided by a “religion” that suits your lifestyle. I hope the day comes soon when you hearts will be open and enlightened.

    Religion is good, I suggest you get one. After all having belief and being bad – there is some hope but with having no belief and being bad – now there is a loser. Atheism is, in the end, a non-prophet organisation!

  212. Sarah:

    “Bigstick1, I was just saying that Jay repeats himself, not to understand but to bash Islam. I have been hearing the same thing from him over the years even though it was explained to him many times over. There are no issues in my religion – it is just people like you who create issues. ”

    Amazing that it is people like me that causes problems and no muslims who believe in marrying off their daughters at 6 even today and many of those muslim countries today have a hugh backlash on trying to raise marrying age due to it is against their pedo prophet. It is amazing how many muslims even in the west will ask for the death of a cartoonist or someone who burns a massed produced copy of the unholy hate book quran or countries who insist on killing for blasphemy as if the unholy words of the quran are more important than a life, or demand the death of a poet who tweets a minor statement of the evil sexoholic prophet some 30,000 or who throws a profession out of a window because he doesn’t go with the current religious (hate doctrines) of today. It is amazing that you can’t not look into any of the hate books (bible, OT, and Quran) without finding it being okay to rape, pillage, divide, create racism or bigotry, degrade gender, homophobic (death sentence), rapist, sexual deviants, indoctrination to hate and vileness. The worst government with the most human atrocities are theocracies. HOWEVER, I or Jay who do nothing more than to point out these things are creating issues. You will excuse me as I call you an apologist and a gradualist to religious hell. For if there is a DEVIL then the ABRAHAMIC god is the Devil for he has killed more in his name than the Devil ever has. IF ever there is evil it is your God for he has allowed more human pain then ever the devil has and there is no mercy or anything else with your God of Abrahamic Hell and that is reiterated time and time again not only the texts but with many of the actions of the religious followers.

    Mrs. B:

    There is nothing authenity about any hadith it is all a bunch of crap. In addition, you put down a woman’s worth to a piece of cloth. If a woman wants to wear nothing she is just as valuable as if she wants to wear a shroud of black. Her value, worth and morals stays the same. It is this type of crap that somehow cloth gives women some type of extra worth which it does not. You actually cheapen women by upholding a doctrines that states women are the vessels of sin as well as a walking external sex organ (awrah). You personify in your choice of symbolism that you agree that women are a walking vagina as far as I am concerned. The person who cheapens women is not the person who wears less nor who wears more but takes on a message that a woman’s worth is based on cloth as she is a sex object. It is a repulsive statement all backed by a repulsive abrahamic evil God petty jealous hateful vile juvenile sex hungup god(something far more vile than the devil himself).

    One of humanities worst problems is with religions as it is meant to create hate, racism, division, slavery, gender aparthied, child abuse, psychology damage, guilt, murder, tortore, mutaliation and more.

    I for one find that to say that a religion provides more freedom than what many women in the western countries have today is just damn stupid or you have your head stuck in the sand. To say that go back to a barbaric time where men thought the earth was flat and that lightning was a God and they thought that women had no genetic component to making children other than to be like the land with need to be seeded well………….I guess it take enlightenment and reason as well as critical thinking to call it bull shit.

    Abrahamic religion are an offense to humanity and it is evil.

  213. OK Sarah, In the first place the remark people like you is a statemnt that can show that you are not interested in debate because when you do that you lump all people who you disagree with in the same catagory. That is yuo right, to me that show me someone who may be a bigot. perhaps not but that is what i would see. Secondly, jews became bamkers, Dr, Teachers, because the were for years not allowed to own property andin many instances the we not allowed to live and work without fear. In Russia there wer Pograms, during the rise of Christianity they were pursecuted, during WWII the Holocaust, which by the way not only tried to do away with Jews but also Gypies, Balcks, Homosexuals, Johovia Whitneses, and not to mention political oposition. If you listen to the music that is poplular today in the I can’t see where you fine a jewish influence. most of the music is harsh and I see no mention of wordls take over by Jews. The movies only wish to make money be protraying violence, and sex, very few family movies, and by your way of thinking then all Muslims are trying to take over the world . If I don’t agree with what Islam states by the interpertation of men not a diety then you must be destroyed. i do not think that is what your profet wanted nor was it what was followed during the early times ofyour religion. At that time they made taztin the means to conversion not force. The problem as i see it is if you want peace learn to get along. The Christians had the same stupid idea that everyone had to be Christian 500 years ago, and made a mess of things, but thakfully they finally came into the light of reason and now the basic idea ,except for idiot Christians is if you are a good person, help other, don’t lie or steal, kindness and brotherly love all would be rewarded with salvation after death. If that is what religion is i agree if you and other on the blog wish to blame everyone and everything else then by all means do so, but first look to yourself.

  214. Dear Mrs Banwazir, I read your post and your practice of your religion your way is your preference. You make reference to the ability to wear a bikini as being an important factor in religious rights, Now I for one would not wear a bekini because I would look just awful in one, but that is just me. The reason that many women in American wonder about the need to cover women from head to toe in some countries is there really is no reational reason for it. if the mear sight of a woman not covered can cause problem i wonder why, that is so. Modest dress does not have to be complete coverage and in many Muslim countries that is so. the idea of covering ones hair was a tradition in the Jewish religion and with some sects of jews it is still that way, some christians and off shoots of christianity also believe in that, why because a womans hair is a crowning glory, well let me tell you with my hair not a chance for that one. What many women in america fell is that women have the right and ability to make up their own minds, that is why whichever god you follow gave them one. If you were not created to make some decisions as a woman you would not have the ablity to think only follow. I will also like to say that the changes in womans thinking inthe USA only came about really in the 20th century when women fought for the right to vote and finally got it in 1920, also the woman;s movement on the 1960’s. One last think in SA why is that woman wear black in the hot desert, and the men wear white. If you can explain that to me I would apriciate it. That really makes no sense to me.

  215. After a fews days ofreading this post I can ay in my mind to the questin Where Do We Go from Here? Nowhere

  216. Where do we go from here? I hope to more tolerance for free thought, and less tolerance for religious oppression.

  217. yeah !!good post

  218. Crantode:
    “… because when you do that you lump all people who you disagree with in the same catagory”

    I am sorry if I carried that message but it is clear who I mean to lump together. Why do you talk about Jews. I am referring to Zionists and not ordinary Jews. Zionists were long time bankers. Music and other forms of entertainments only carries their agenda message and their are the ones trying to take over the world – a new world.

    “The problem as i see it is if you want peace learn to get along”
    Tell that to Bigstick1 and Kuctuz. I am all for peace talks.

    And talking about bikini, women in the west are pressurised to be ultra thin and they sell their bodies in public for attention of men. Isn’t this a kind of persecution. Coverd up women are frowned upon or teased while exposed women are considered beautiful. So women appear is blown up billbords, cover pages of fashionable magazines, movies …etc, you see them everywhere – just to be among the acceptable ones. Girls are expected to wear revealing clothes and have boyfriends and get pregnant even in early teens. That is all fine but they cannot get married and live a decent life. Marriage is no no but to live with a boyfriend for teens is fine. What kind of thinking is this?

  219. Selling yourself by covering yourself with cloth is just as low as selling yourself in a bikini.
    I keep being amazed at some people’s obsession with women in bikinis. I wear a bikini when I go swimming, not to sell myself, but to glide easily and safely through the water, and because it will be very hot weather. I don’t see what the obsession is all about.

  220. Ok…see if you can follow my logic here regarding the prophet and his 6 year old bride. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

    1. God make mohammed a prophet (according to mohammed)
    2. God says mohammed is the best among you, those who emulate him are following the best example there is out there. Muslims should do what he did, say the things he said, avoid what he avoided, and basically shadow his every mood…to please god.
    3. Mohammed supposedly came along to lift those barbarian Arabs out of their barbaric lifestyle. Do away with pagan rituals, worshipping false gods, burying their infant daughters etc.
    4. Muslims and god and the prophet ALL claim that Islam if for ALL people, places and time. The perfect religion.
    5. So…god saw fit to send mohammed a dream that he should marry a 6 year old girl.
    6. Abu Bakr gladly gives up his child to the arms of the prophet because whatever the prophet and god wants…happens.
    7. Aisha is married off at the age of 6…there was never any controversy regarding her age until Islam started making its way into western cultures…then gymnastics were performed to manipulate hadith to raise her age…to make it all seem more palatable and religous..but thats beside the point.

    Here is my take on it. On one hand muslims (and god and the prophet) claim that Islam is for all time and all places and to emulate the prophets behavior as he was perfect and the best of men. God must have known that at some point in the future marrying old men to children would NOT be an acceptable cultural or religous norm and that sending mohammed a dream to do just that was setting a precedent that would follow Islam for the next 1400 years…because muslims emulate what the prophet did. If he was truly a prophet come to raise the Arabs out of their barbarity and God could be bothered enough to tell them stop killing your baby girls…why not also tell them and stop marrying them off to old men while your at it….because a few hundred years from now muslim men will STILL be doing it because their prophet did it.

    You cannot make the claim that islam if for all places and time for some stuff and then claim but that stuff was for a particular place and time. What the heck gives you the right to determine whats for all place and time and whats for a particular place and time? God didnt distinguish marrying little girls this way…didnt prohibit it or say a damn word against it. As a matter of fact god gave the prophet a dream that told him he should in fact marry a little girl. So god had no issues with it. Mohammed never spoke against it obviously…so he was quite all right with the practice. Nobody else raised a damn stink about it…not even his enemies…so they were ok with it. The only people that are not ok with it are some (many, who knows) muslims of today…and the nonmuslims who read about this and are disgusted. But the muslims of today twist and turn the words and do all sorts of things to protect the image of the prophet and his willingness to marry a child…even if they have to lie to themselves and others and say it was just for a particular place and time. I say PROVE IT.

    He was a prophet. God claimed he was the BEST example of a man and muslim that ALL muslims should follow. If he did something that meant it was ok for other muslims to do it too…he married a little girl…so why the hell cant other muslims do the same?

    A true prophet (if there is such a thing) behaves better. Period. There should be no instances where people say hmmmm…but what about… NO NEVER.

    He married a little girl. Had sex with a little girl. God said he could. Period. How in the heck do you find excuses for that in any way shape or form? He was supposed to be better than that. Period. He came to do away with injustices…to do away with barbarity…to lift arabs up into a moral, civilized people…and yet he did not stop the barbaric practice of marrying old men to little girls and in fact participated in that act himself. There is no excuse. NONE. If you think you have one all you have managed to do is still that quiet voice in your head that tells you it is morally and inherently wrong for a prophet of god to act in a way that harms another person (unless we use the self defense card) and yet you will sit there and say having sex with a child (6 or 9…why quibble) was not a harmful practice to that child? How can you? It was the practice of the time and nobody thought twice about it? Really? Then what the hell was the purpose of sending a prophet at all if he was going to act just like all the arabs around him? Why?

  221. One thing that makes me crazy is the way the world see Americans through the idiots that are portrayed on the television and in the movies. Today there is more of a push for girls to be of normal weight when I was a girl you were supposed to be thin and I was but I was healthy and did not go around somewhat undressed. Have you seen many of the kids today in the USA I mean the actual kids. They are far from thin. Believe me. I think it is because the don’t move around and do not exercise, but I digress. There are many problem in the USA when it come to some of the children and the young girls, but not to the extent that people in other nations think. I really don’t know of all tht many children living together without marriage, They could not afford to do so. I truly believe it is not so much what people wear that defines a society. Today our television video games and the stupid so called reality television where no talent people are making money making idiots of themselves that influence the kids and to some extent adults here.. This too shall pass. I think that as always we in the USA have a habit of going very far to the Left which is acceptance to things that were not accepted before and that lasts about 20 years. then we head to the Middle where people or pretty normal. Then we go too far to the Right very conservative until people get tired of that and it starts all over again. I just do not see the need for covering of people. If you have good morals it should not matter what you wear but that is the difference in our cultures, but again I do not understand why there is a difference between the dress of men and women. Even if it is for modesty sake all should ber covered or none. Sarah for a bit of humor now you must like the looks of a handsome man. Does that make you a bad person no, it says hey I can appriciate someone who looks good. ne lastthing isit possible that to cover women actually makes them more of an object of immoral thinking. The imagination is very strong. Nice discusion Sarah.

  222. Bigstick1,
    What is amazing your hatred of all things Islam. Yes people like you causes problems because of you narrow-minded thinking.

    The reaction to the silly video by Muslims is not what Islam teaches; the damages and loss of lives were all carried out by people who are as ignorant as that video maker.

    As I mentioned before that girls married young in those days and it was a very normal thing to do. My mother married at 11/12. And there was nothing unusual about that. In India new-born boys and girls are engaged. Yes they are not even one year old. It is nothing to do with Islam but only the culture. And this is still the culture in India and Africa so stop blaming Islam.

  223. Coolred, Did you know that the Byzantines who were christian didthe same thing married off people when they were young. I think it ws about the time of Theodora. anyway this practice was not something only done by Mohanmmed. If you look at History you have to look at through the eyes of the time period it took place. 21 century minds cannot get a handle on that kind of stuff. Oh I am not sticking up for any religion I believe peole should think for themselves but he was not alone.

  224. Sarah:

    Girls are not expected to be any of that. Yes there are forms of media which do exploit dresswear and looks. However for most Americans it is an illusion, however yes it does exist but make not mistake that it also exists even in countries like Saudi. Women by the way are not ridiculed for covering up. Girls are not expected to have boyfriends, get pregnant or have revealing clothes as most parents frown on this. What girls are expected is to get educated, find out who they are and to ensure that they can support themselves and to never have children until they can support themselves with or without men. It is call independence but they are allowed the choice.

    It is however understandable that this is what you would think of what American girls and women are relegated to as you apparently believe in that all things fantasy such as the entertainment industry is real. Just understand that Hollywood is a world until itself and rarely if ever depicts American women or girls as they truly are, however, most American’s understand what they are fantasy.

  225. Hello again Sarah, In India they are trying to do away with engagement for child and the marriage taking place as children. In India they do not live together even though they are married until they are considered adults . The government is also trying to do away with Bride Price because of the problems they are having there. You are correct thing change as time moves on..

  226. Sarah, you should not be so obsessed with Americans, why don’t you focus on my country? the Netherlands? We have a lot of commercials for young people educating them on safe sex, and everybody who wants to can get birth control. They sell condoms everywhere. Most men here are very decent and treat women with respect, there is very little harrassment. Men and women interact on an equal basis. We are on the whole happy and prosperous and have very few teen pregnancies. Being gay is accepted by most, gay people can get married. Prostitution is legalized. Even better, cannabis is legalized. Actually you could walk the street here totally naked and not even cause a disturbance. It’s not popular, but you could do it. And if any man would rape you he would still get punished. No man is allowed to rape you, not even your husband. If you get raped get get offered the morning after pill immediately by the doctor who supports you and the police who will go after your rapist who will be considered a criminal. There are lots of organisations which will help and council you to get over this terrible crime. Polygamy is against the law, we do draw the line somewhere.
    If you want an abortion you get counselling to make sure you make a decision that’s right for you and if you are convinced it is you get the abortion.
    If your husband beats you up you can divorce him and get a restraining action against him.
    if you want to make any nasty claim against any religion you are free to do so.
    If you are dying slowly and are in excruciating pain and there is no way out you can arrange with a doctor and a counselor for a dignified death at a time of your own choosing.

    Really if you want to bitch about another society than your own there are far better choices than America. America is way back compared to the Netherlands.

  227. Cantrode,
    I appreciate a good-looking man and I also appreciate a good-looking woman just as I appreciate a beautiful flower and all things created. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Yes I agree with you that covering a woman makes them more attractive. Cantrode, it is not only about covering, it is how one conducts oneself, talks, walks …etc. You see how young Muslimas are covering themselves these days. The abaya is glittery, even tight-fitting, the hijab is worn in an attractive way …etc. This is not covering up. The actual hijab will not attract but gain respect. This is my experience.

    Enjoy discussing with you, Cantrode.

  228. Yes Aafke, I didn’t realise that I always talk about Americans. It could be because as Bigstick1 says, the movies. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Maybe I should look at Netherlands.

  229. It was also part of the culture to bury baby girls alive…mohammed did away with that one on gods orders (apparently) but marrying little girls..well that one had to stay. Why? Why? Why? Explain please because saying it was the culture at the time makes absolutely no sense when we are talking about a PROPHET of god that should have behaved better than the damn culture he came to change. Get it?

  230. From what you describe Netherlands, it seems to me as a zombie natiaon 🙂 with people having not a care in the world. People there seem to be very tired and boring. But the country is very beautiful qnd scenic.

    I don’t think America is backward compared to Netherlands. USA is just maybe more interesting. But the way people dress, yes maybe they are both backward – being naked and all like the cave people.

  231. I would rather be naked with an open mind then covered with a closed one.

  232. Actually the Dutch are fun loving, there’s a lot of culture, here, museums, concerts, plays, when the weather is nice everybody is sitting outside the cafes, sometimes with life music, in Amsterdam everybody is out in boats, having picknick dinners in the boats in the evenings, we visit each other for dinner, we give each other flowers, you will almost never see a Dutch home without plants and flowers, in summer we barbeque together. I go with my friends and our horses on weekends in the forests, we ride all day, make nice dinners at night and talk about our horses. We all work hard in the week and go on holidays.
    This is the good life, free, full of friends, music, beauty, fun and culture.

  233. Coolred,
    You asked, and even said “please” so I respond to you.

    First of all the practice of pagan Arabs to bury female infants was outlawed by the Prophet because it was a disgusting murderous thing to do. There is no crime committed by the baby so for what reason is she to be killed? Parents who kill their baby girls will face the wrath of God. By the way, this practice is still carried out in villages of Rajasthan and other poor areas – even by Muslims.

    Now marriage of female at whatever age is not a murder. Girls can be married if they consent to it. If they do not then the marriage is not valid. Aisha readily accepted the proposal. By the way, she was only “engaged” at age 6 or 7 but married at 9. It is not impossible for girls to be matured at 9 (Sahih Bukhari) especially in hot, arid climate. So there is nothing strange in this. It was common for girls that age to be married. In fact they were considered to be young women and not girls. Aisha was already engaged to another man and that engagement was broken as she preferred Prophet.

    If indeed he was a pedophile then why did he not marry other young girls? Why marry at all? Most of his wives were older than him. I suggest you read about the mentality of a pedohile and why he behaves as he does and you will not see his charactersitics matching with the Prophet’s. Aisha has said: “None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could” (Sahih Muslim). He has not molested anyone and only married a young woman so is that strong enough evidence to call him a pedophile?

    Besides, if a couple want to get married, who are we to object? In a free society such as yours where even gays can get married and live together, why does this true marriage between a couple seem so wrong to you?

    Remember more than a century ago, girls used to get married at ages 9 – 14 in USA, Europe and many parts of the world. Times change, Coolred, it really does.

  234. Oh, Aafke, that sounds so wonderful and romantic. Makes me want to fly over there. In this region we get imported flowers from Holland and Netherlands – beautiful roses and tulips. Hmmmm… Wow your description stirs the poet in me.

  235. bigstick1,
    Sorry Saudi does not have huge billboards of exposed women. If you are meaning exploiting of girls is also in Saudi, then I don’t really get you? How so? Yes certainly there is western influence in this region and that is again through the media.

    Yes girls are expected to be in a relationship in your part of the world, if not it is looked as if something is wrong in her. And covered women are teased there. I know covered girls in USA and they have to put up with pressures at work places or schools. They get nervous when going for job interviews …etc. Some have to do away with hijab and dress as “others” just to fit in or survival. This is reality. I am not getting this from media.

  236. Sarah…more explaining away. Where did Aisha readily accept her engagement when she speaks of her mother pulling her from play and preparing her for it? When was she asked…when did she say yes? And once again…god must have known that at some point in the future grown ass men marrying children would no longer be accepted in society…so why allow or order Mohammed to do it? Why not stamp it out right then and there and forever kill the practice among muslims? I notice all you say to defend it is she was already a woman..please. Having a period does not make a female a woman. If your daughter got her period at age 9 would you presume she was ready for marriage? Why not…because she isnt mature physically or mentally for it. But Aisha…who was still playing with dolls…not running a household or building her hope chest or doing adult like things because she was not an adult…she was a child still…had no choice or say in the matter. Just because she was engaged before that does not mean a thing except her father had already promised his little girl to another man. So effing what. For the last time…Mohammed was a PROPHET of GOD…he should have behaved better than those around him. His actions were emulated by those around him right up until today…him marrying a 6 year old girl set a precedent that continues…when it could have been stopped by god and him.

    Your excuses…and muslims excuses just sound like b.s. Also, if all of his wives were older, as you said…what on earth made him turn his eye to a 6 year old girl? A dream from god? So god set the precedent for muslim men to marry little girls…god must not have seen the future when such a thing would be considered disgusting.

  237. What is a ”hope chest”?

  238. Cool Red … what are you trying to prove? Give it up already. It’s a done deal!! It happened how many years ago? It was common amongst most peoples when the life span was maybe 30 years if lucky. It’s still happening today in culturally backward places amongst other peoples and religions. In New Hampshire a girl of 13 can be married with consent.

  239. Aafke, this according to Wikipedia:

    A hope chest, dowry chest, cedar chest, or glory box is a chest used to collect items such as clothing and household linen, by unmarried young women in anticipation of married life.

    The term “hope chest” or “cedar chest” is used in the midwest or south of the United States; in the United Kingdom, the term is “bottom drawer”; while “glory box” is used by women in Australia.

  240. I cannot believe it was that common to marry pre-teen girls, Any healthy society depends on healthy grown up women to produce healthy offspring. Getting preteen girls pregnant causes a lot of sickly or dead babies, dead girls, or girls which have been torn up inside due to too early sex, or delivering a baby when their body’s are way too young.

    From this comment, I really find it hard to believe your proficiency in historical events. Not so long ago, about 50 years ago or so (not even 1400 years ago) it was common practise for people around the world to marry as soon as their body began to take “form”, around 9 or so. My own late grandmother married at the tender age of 14, her mother married younger. Everyone else did the same at that time, it is so common, and not even 1400 years ago. In ancient Rome, girls were married of at age 12, some even less.

    From around ad 530, and at least as far back as the reign of augustus, the legal minimum age of marriage for girls was 12 and for boys 14 (hopkins, p313n22)…at least for the aristocracy, early ages are frequently mentioned. betrothal could take place within a poorly defined period before this age; at least it must be assumed that a minimum legal age of seven was in vogue (p313n23)[49] … plutarche (historian, philosopher), and soranus (doctor, practising at rome), both greeks, implied that early marriage (12 or before) and defloration would occur…(janssen, d.f.; oct 2002. g.u.s.. volume i: world reference atlas. interim report. amsterdam, the netherlands, http://www2.huberlin.

    Christopher Hitchens didn’t have toys I believe, therefore the poor childish metaphor 🙂

  241. When I was a girl and before me in the United States you would get a chest usually made of cedar that as you got older female relatives would give you things to put into it to have for when you got married. things like linens, bath towels, kitchen things, and such. I guess the name was give to it because the purpose was to get married and you put these things there to same for the day you were hopeful that someone would marry you. Then you took it with you so you could store your linens and blankets in it. I still have mine and I got it 50 years ago when I was young. Hope that explains it.

  242. There is nothing authenity about any hadith it is all a bunch of crap.
    Tell that to W. Montgomery Watt and the rest of the Western Islamic scholars, oh but wait, Bigstick knows way more Islamic history than the rest of the world combined since he boldly stated that prophet Muhammed never existed in the first place (despite countless research by scholars and historians Muslim or otherwise).

    You actually cheapen women by upholding a doctrines that states women are the vessels of sin as well as a walking external sex organ (awrah).

    Nope, i didn’t say anything about women being vessel etc, that was all your words, you are truly fixated on sins and women as vessels so I don’t wonder your decision to abandon religion altogether, sad that.

    You personify in your choice of symbolism that you agree that women are a walking vagina as far as I am concerned.

    As far as you’re concerned, what i choose to wear is NON OF YOUR CONCERN 🙂 I’m a Muslim feminist so I take it as an insult when you tell me what I should wear and for you to call my clothing choice as oppressive and degrading is the highest degree of backwards thinking and the epitome of a male chauvinistic pig!

    As for several other comments, I have addressed them before, no need to repeat. A bull-headed will remain bull-headed 🙂

  243. Now I for one would not wear a bekini because I would look just awful in one, but that is just me. Catronade, Ion the other hand, I would look awesome in a bikini, but I choose to show that only to the man who earned my love and affection and who shared my ups and downs and fathered my child 🙂 If you thought my mentioning a bikini meant I prioritize it, then you understood nothing about my comment.

  244. The comment was to be a little light hearted for pete sake lighten up. I don’t care if you want to wear a bikini or not or who you want to wear it for, and by the way I understood your comment.

  245. Wendy:

    In New Hampshire that is with both parents consent and the male cannot be more than three years older than the female. I am sure it does occur but it is a rarity and New Hampshire has the lowest age in the USA to which they come under scrunity for as it is deemed a detriment to both the juveniles.

    Sarah:

    Amazing, I have neices who are not pressured at all. I have one 16 yoa neice who is on-track on working with a college to guide her into neuro-surgery and another who is 19 currently in New York attending for Fashion and Dance. Neither one feels pressured to be anything but themselves and to pursue their dreams in careers. They are beautiful girls/women who are capable of handling their own and feel they can dress as they choice. Neither one has a boyfriend nor cares to have one at this time.

    Therefore I have to wonder whether it is the environment of the girls you know or maybe it is their attitude when near others or maybe it is the fact that they see other girls capable of doing something different and wish they could and deem that to be pressure verses their own choice. Next there is a large number of women who find the hijab and associated dresswear to be a symbol of gender oppression and deem it to be a hate symbol to them as a woman. I know a few women who view it as such sort of like the dresswear of KKK around African Americans. In other words it is not received favorable because they view it as a form of hate towards their gender.

    I also have to wonder what type of people your friends keep close to them as well.

    Next, you go back to what women wear as it is something that creates a worth for women. Tell me did the cloth of the girls that tried to escape a burning school in Saudi worth more than the lives of the girls? Apparently so as they burned to death. So yes Saudi does demean and debase women by calling them a sexual object so vile that it (the object) needs to be covered.

  246. Mrs. B:

    You might want to rethink that statement on how old women were and 9 was not typical I assure you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#Europe

  247. One last think in SA why is that woman wear black in the hot desert, and the men wear white. If you can explain that to me I would apriciate it. That really makes no sense to me.

    Beats me Catronade. Makes no sense to me as well, but I love wearing abaya time to time to special events, my abayas are fashionable of the latest fashion yet still conforming to my religion (style, colours, beauty are not prohibited in Islam according to my understanding). White thobe and shemagh are good for the desert weather, but black not so good, although depends on the material and the cut of the abaya, it could be cooling.

    He was a prophet. God claimed he was the BEST example of a man and muslim that ALL muslims should follow. If he did something that meant it was ok for other muslims to do it too…he married a little girl…so why the hell cant other muslims do the same?

    That’s why I think you didn’t get the whole gist of Islam with this statement since there were some clear NO NO’s on what was acceptable for the prophet and not for the rest of Muslims like example marrying more than 4, claiming to be a prophet, having your name included in the recital of prayers. As for marrying young girls, get over yourself since we all knew back then it was perfectly normal to marry young girls, be it ancient Rome, ancient Egypt, even the Colonials in good ol USA, read it up. In Islam, we are allowed to evolve with the current development, in terms of social, political, economical issues, just not our Iman, Tawhid. So in our society now, marriage at such young age is unacceptable. According to your nonsense, we should all still be riding camels and brushing our teeth ONLY with miswak. You see, that’s the difference between understanding a religion and not understanding religion. The core can never be changed but the outer layers evolves with the current times.

    From Aafke’s first description of Netherlands, it sounds like a zombie land, I agree Sarah. No one seems to give a damn about anything or anyone and “you do you I do me” has been taken to the extreme where no one cares about each other. And prostitution is not something to be proud off, ewww. Great that the Dutch don’t mind their husbands and wives catching STD’s and so on, great stuff to teach your children. Please!! and the very same people are against polygamy and mutaah (I’m against polygamy and mutaah too, and so it makes sense that I am against prostitution). On the record, I am against the polygamy that is being practised in the current setting, not way back when it was done out of providing shelter and love for widows.

    But Aafke’s second description of Netherlands sounds just like any other country I have been to and lived in, including Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, UK, USA, even Kuwait and UAE. Nothing unusual there but just for that second description, I would love to visit one day, not for the first description though, cannabis and prostitutes are huge no no’s for me 🙂

  248. Sarah:

    “Now marriage of female at whatever age is not a murder. Girls can be married if they consent to it. If they do not then the marriage is not valid. Aisha readily accepted the proposal. By the way, she was only “engaged” at age 6 or 7 but married at 9. It is not impossible for girls to be matured at 9 (Sahih Bukhari) especially in hot, arid climate. So there is nothing strange in this. It was common for girls that age to be married. In fact they were considered to be young women and not girls. Aisha was already engaged to another man and that engagement was broken as she preferred Prophet.”

    First and foremost what hadith are you reading that she preferred the Prophet? I read that she left her dolls to be taken to be deflowered by the rapist con man you call a prophet. So please provide you source.

    Here is a nice study on child rape and the damage it does.

    http://garnetbird.hubpages.com/hub/Childhood-Sexual-Abuse-Causes-Physical-Brain-Damage-A-New-Alarming-Study

  249. Bigstick, the fact that Shakespeare set his Juliet at the age of 13 reflects the reality in England. If you read Romeo and Juliet, her mother who was 26 called her an old maid. How about the American colonies? Mary Hathaway was only 9 or so when she married William Williams. The most influential legal text of the seventeenth century in England, that of Sir Edward Coke made it clear that marriage for girls under 12 was normal http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/noble-women-in-the-middle-ages.htm

  250. Here is some more wonderful aspects on why children should be allowed to marry and concieve early.

    http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/publications/432?task=view

  251. Mrs. B:

    That was the exception not the rule and generally it was done for purposes of royality to solidify alliances. Also Shakespeare is again writing fiction what the hell is it with religious people and the inability to distinquish fiction for reality.

  252. Bigstick the study you presented is alarming but you’re missing the point. You are giving a study conducted in our times, modern day. However, we’re discussing times of ancient history and prophetic periods.

  253. What the hell is it with atheist and the inability to see the connection of a great mind like Shakespeare with the society he lived in? Deny history all you want, it is naturally you 🙂 And guess what, you avoided Mary Hathaway 🙂 and the other examples 🙂 What is it with you lot?

  254. Ahh we back to child marriage and its scourge that is brought by Islam 🙂 And to think these people call themselves the chosen intellectual science-y historical loving people of the future generation. In history, it was a common practise not just among nobles but every jane doe in the past to marry VERY young. Why is it Islamophobes love to recycle their arguments when issues such as child marriages was found to be common during all times and have been sorted out?

    Look here:

    Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13yo (1350), and aged 14yo when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).
    Theodora Comnena was aged 13yo when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).
    Agnes of France was 12yo when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).
    St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12yo when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.
    Caterina Sforza was betrothed aged 9yo, married aged 14yo, and gave birth aged 15yo.
    Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13yo and bore a son within a few years.
    Beatrice d’Este was betrothed aged 5yo and married aged 15yo.

  255. I suggest you read about the mentality of a pedohile and why he behaves as he does and you will not see his charactersitics matching with the Prophet’s.

    I’ve got to hand it to you Sarah, you hit the nail on the head alright with that statement. A paedophile has clear characteristics that could not be ascribed to our prophet, since apart from Aisha, his other wives were all old and hardly virgins. A paedophile is a disorder that involves abnormal interest in children (not widows and divorcees). It is an oxymoron to accuse Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be a paedophile since 1. It was common practise back then to marry young girls among both nobles and peasants. 2. Apart from Aisha, his other wives were either older than him or old or widows or divorcees. 3. Aisha was already engaged to someone else (meaning it WAS common practice) but she broke it off (see a women’s right when it comes to choosing 🙂 4. Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father gave consent to the marriage, showing that it was a respectable marriage with consents from daughter and father.

  256. You all do know that there are numerous hadiths that appear to support she was definitely older. And if you look at the time line of things and compare, it seems much more accurate.

  257. I found this comment on loonwatch, makes you wonder –

    about Muhammad mariage, there were many versions, some of them reported not like bukhari versions,
    like Ibn Khateer, Ibnu Hajar Al Asqalani or Abdal-Rahman ibn abi zannad record on Aisha’s sister Asma who were 10 years older than Aisha and died at 100 years old in 692/693 C.E.
    also same record from Asad Al-Ghaba, who stated aisha was 5 years younger than Fatimah, Ali’s Wife
    thus if we used non bukhari version, then Aisha’s age was around 13-19 years old

    and it doesn’t makes sense, if she was so young, how come she did political campaign, town to town, made speech in-front of Public expressing her political view and gain many followers including some top arab’s leaders then lead civil war against ali and even after defeated, she still gain political role in the society. she was a genius politician.

    and so if we put Aisha as same Generations as Ali ibn abi thalib, Fatimah etc, then it’s all fit,she was her equal political rival….Does that sound like a child to you, Bigstick, Coolred and others? You see, we simply cannot use the same social setting as we have now to that of 1000 years ago. I’m not totally sure how old Aisha was when she married, but one thing I know for sure was that from her historical accounts, she seemed more than matured and of “legal” age. And what might seem like a child for our generation would be a young woman hundreds and thousands of years ago. The idea of a legal age for either sex, marriage, relationships is a legal and social construct. Those times, they didn’t register for birth certificate so it was hard for them to know accurately their age. They had enough problems finding food, looking for social stability, let alone age. If you want to argue on centuries-old events, you better double check your facts.

  258. Amal:

    There are numerous that give her exact age as 6 when married and 9 when consummated without all the back and forth of trying to deceipher a different age based on some type account to make it palitable for us non-muslims. In addition, most of the middle east countries fight to raise the age of girls who can be married because if it was good enough for the pedo then it is good enough to rape and abuse girls throughout their country even today. There in lies the problem that is still is going on today and it needs to stop. This includes standing against clerics/iman who continue this abuse. So I know you won’t excuse me but your agrument is hollow as there is plenty of evidence in the hadith that she was 6 and 9 for the event of mental degradation and rape by the con man himself.

    Have you ever read John Wansbrough or Ignaz Goldziher or Michael Cook regarding the hadith? Interesting reading.

  259. Mrs. B:

    Here some more information:

    Still, in most of Northwestern Europe, marriage at very early ages was rare; one thousand marriage certificates from 1619 to 1660 in the Archdiocese of Canterbury show that only one bride was 13 years of age, four were 15, twelve were 16, and seventeen were 17 years of age while the other 966 brides were at least 19 years of age at marriage. And the Church dictated that both the bride and groom must be at least 21 years of age to marry without the consent of their families; in the certificates, the most common age for the brides is 22 years and for the grooms 24 years is the most common age, with average ages of 24 years for the brides and 27.75 for the grooms.[4] While European noblewomen married early, they were a small minority[5] and the marriage certificates from Canterbury show that even among nobility it was very rare to marry women off at very early ages.[4]

    The American colonies followed the English tradition, and the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only 9 when she was married to William Williams. Sir Edward Coke (England, 17th century) made it clear that “the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband’s estate was 9 even though her husband be only four years old.”[1]

    Reliable data for when people would actually marry is very difficult to find. In England for example, the only reliable data on age at marriage in the early modern period comes from records which involved only those who left property after their death. Not only were the records relatively rare, but not all bothered to record the participants’ ages, and it seemed that the more complete the records are, the more likely they are to reveal young marriages. Additionally, 20th and 21st centuries’ historians have sometimes shown reluctance to accept data regarding young ages of marriage, and would instead explain the data away as a misreading by a later copier of the records.[1]

    http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html

    Please read the link as it also states that Mary Hathaway was allowed to obtain a divorce because the marriage was never consummated.

  260. You still don’t get it…first you say it was culturally acceptable then you say he had special privileges others did not….but the fact is he behaved in a way that harmed another soul/person what have you. Just because it was culturally crept able to force children to marry and have sex, and therefore babies and the harmful consequences of the, does not make it right. Just because other cultures and times have participated in that disgusting act does not mean it was right. Just because you can excuse and explain it away does not make it right.

    At the end of the day, the prophet that you emulate your life around, engaged in an action (many actually but we are talking of just one here) that harmed another person…a child no less. You base your life and religious choices around a common man that proclaimed himself chosen by god but behaved no better than the barbaric Arabs he came to lift up from their barbarity. In other words, he did not improve the lives of little girls, he perpetuated it. If you think I should get over it because it’s a done deal than what a sad pathetic excuse for a man you all follow as some sort of exemplar of human behavior. I won’t get over it as long as little girls are still being married off to old men…because their prophet did it.

    Btw there was NO argument about Aisha’s age until slam started making its way into western cultures. The Arabs never had a problem with her being 6. Stop trying to twist a fact to fit your fiction.

  261. Bigstick, refer to my previous comment here http://americanbedu.com/2012/09/20/saudi-arabiagccmuslim-world-where-do-we-go-from-here/#comment-99213 did Aisha sound anything like a child?

    Have you ever considered the possibility that the cultural perception of maturity may not always be grounded in biology?(Especially 1000 years ago) The world over, in some rural areas, girls are married off really young because if they cross a certain age, usually 13, then they’d be considered too old and not marriageable quality.

    In most ancient civilizations (roman, indian, persian, chinese, arabic, african, native indian, where does that leave you and i am sure you didn’t descend from mars), children were often married at onset of puberty or sometimes even before that. so if you are going to condemn these centuries old practices as “pedophilia” based on your current standards, then most of us will be considered descendant of pedophiles!

    so think before you condemn your own ancestors!

  262. Coolred, as Wendy so charmingly stated “give it up already”! It was an acceptable practise back then, it didn’t abuse the “child” since Aisha displayed the total opposite of an abused child physiological behavior. instead of arguing about a practise centuries ago, which i am sure even your ancestors engaged in LEGALLY by their society, I suggest you go and protest some child marriages that are being done now 🙂 Yallah, I ll even stand beside you on that one but I do not agree that what the prophet did was anything abnormal under that social and cultural norm at that time.

  263. Mrs B. Did you not get the point?. Your sorry excuses mean nothing to the children who are sexually abused because of what your prophet did and what he and Allah put in Islam’s writings.

    You consider the Quran perfect, Allah all knowing and powerful and your dear prophet a great moral example, yet all of these contributed to the evil done to your girls.

    So it doesn’t really matter if Aisha was 9, 9, 18 or 80 – the fact is that Allah and Mohammed let Bulkari and Muslim put the early age in their hadith , which has resulted in pain and suffering for children for 1200 years because some vile Muslims see that and use it to justify evil. That makes Allah and Mohammad partners in crime with any Muslim taking a premature child for sex.

    Not much of a god, not much of a prophet, I think..

    The only conclusion is that Allah doesn’;t care sh!t about little girls. To remedy this situation, all Allah would have had to do was add a few more lines saying Aisha had reached puberty or tell Mohammed to wait a few more years. But no….

    Once again, nothing is more important that protecting a man that did so many evils. You can’t even begin to be honest, can you?

    Do you have children? Think of what your dear prophet did to the mothers and fathers of so many children in his raids on peaceful villages. You don’t care, do you?

    Oh by the way, if your read the hadith, many of your dear prophet’s wives were fairly young and very beautiful, except the fat one (Hafsah, daughter of Omar) that he relieved of her duties. Two of these were very beautiful women whose husbands he had just killed. Cute! Want references?

    Also, nobody considers any of the people you listed to be great moral examples (to follow if a Muslim wants to get to paradise) so what Bianca, Theodora, Agnes, Elizabeth, Caterina, Lucrezia or their husbands did or didn’t do is of no consequence to any of us.

    The same cannot be said of your dear prophet. Like him or not, Muslims like you think that everything he did was good, hence we see broken bodies and abused children, because of his example.

    Stop making excuses for evil.

    I notice you quote the same writings I do, but somehow you just can’t seem to see the words, or there is some kind of “Muslim purity filter” that blanks out all the words you prefer not to see.

    ,.

  264. I wrote a post once on the age of Aischa, if you take the historical context claimed by historians into account, she cannot have been that young. That age has been derived from two shaky hadith, but considering some other dates we know those hadith could be wrong.

    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/how-old-was-aicha/

    The question remains why the vast majority of Muslims, especially the clerics, keep on following these dodgy hadith, and resist any efforts to set a reasonable age for girls to be married off, to wait until they are women. All on the claim of the ”best of men”, the ”example” for all men, to have had sex with a pre teen girl, therefore it’s fine for Muslim men to have sex with toddlers.

    About the black for women, that is not by natural progression, women in Saudi Arabia had many regional forms of dress, with colors and bright embroideries, and many did not cover their hair. Old photo’s (some in my post on Aischa) show Bedouin women wearing brown or creme looking dresses. They worse their hair in tresses hanging down in front of them. Fatehma, governor of Hail around 1900, was photographed in a fawn looking wide dress with her hair in tresses in front of her.
    In towns women wore a host of different and brightly colored dresses. Sometimes covered with see-through abaya type garments. Many regions had clothes which were adapted to the environment in which the women lives, with stiff hems to protect them from thorns for example. The current uniform is in no way helpful to a woman who has to do any kind of work.

    The black abaya was forced on the female population only a few decades ago, like the ”mao suit” in China. It is neither culture nor tradition. Not for the majority of Saudi Arabia. The real culture and traditions of saudi Arabia have been destroyed by the government and religious clerics.
    Including the indigenous dress forms.

  265. Coolred,
    God knew that in the future that Coolred would be debating this issue too and that in her culture it would be not be acceptable to marry very young. But He also knew that in some other culture it is accepted and okay. In rural areas men will marry young girls and in many cases this is a support for the girl’s family. In some cutlures it is accepted and in others it is not. So what? In some cutlures they eat weith their hand wile in others they use forks and knives. So which one is right and which is wrong? It is just the way it is? Coolred, get over it.

    And Coolred, what is the big deal? You married very young yourself? You regret that and maybe that is why you are so dead against this practice. That is your personal thinking. Why do you fret if two want to get married whatever their age. What are you trying to prove? As I mentioned before my mother also married around 11 (and what do you know, she was playing with dolls too in the garden when her aunts called her in and cleaned her up to get ready for the marriage) and so did her mother and all in that culture and era. So its not that big a deal. Why stamp it out? How do you know what was maturity of Aisha?

    Coolred, on what basis are you saying the Prophet should have behaved better? By marrying a girl who consented? Is it better to have a relationship with her first as in your society and then cheat on her? Tell me what is the honorable thing to do? Why should it be stopped by god or him? Do you know better than god? It is “considered disgusting” only by you and the likes of you. But there are others who don’t see it that way. Go back in your history and ask those people why they did that – those who were not even following the prophet. Why were they following this “disgusting” practice? Go ahead ask them.

    Back in the 70’s or 80′ there used to be TV series called “Little House of the Prairie” based on the series of books by Laura Ingalls. I love this series so much that to this day, I watch it almost daily. It was about the life in the 19th Century. It really makes me want to go back to that era. Things were so simple and people were so honest. Even in that series girls were marrying very young. There were no Tvs, smartphones, internet, ipads …etc … life was just beautiful. What appeals to me is their living style. Even their clothes, the way the guard their honor …

    I don’t understand whats the big deal about playing with dolls. So what if she was playing with dolls? Women and men play with toys whatever the age. Toys have evolved too. Latest toys are ipads and xbox, ps3 … I see grown men playing those – so they are all immature? 🙂

    Cantrode, omg, that description of the cedar chest. While I studying the indian cutlure and was in India, I got an opportunity to see the chest being prepared for the girl who was about to get married. It was already stuffed with things. And bride was supposed to take the chest with her. This was not more that 7 years ago. I found it very interesting and here you are describing the very same thing.

  266. Lets not beat around the bush, no matter where or how many cultures are so stupid to allow child marriage, it is wrong. It is bad from women.
    -Girls who are subjected to sex and childbirth at a too young age are denied education,
    -they are denied personal choice, in whom they marry, or when they become sexually active.
    – maternal survival rate is very low for children who are forced to bear babies
    -The death rate for babies is very high
    -Girls who are forced into sex by old fully developed husbands develop fistulas, as result of the raping of a very young girl by a full grown man, the wall between the vagina and the anus is ruptured, and piss and excrement will flow out continuously through the vagina.

    Two years ago a man in Yemen raped his child bride to death. Although she’s probably better off dead than married to that pig.

    Child marriage is rape, torture, mutilation and murderous. Any ”culture” or ”religion” is evil when it allows such crimes against humanity, against children.
    If the Muslims persist in this story of a 50 years old man having sex with a pre-teen, then they simultaneously proclaim he was the worst of men.

  267. Sarah, ”god” is an insecure, attention seeking nasty, evil, little sadist. Just read all the holy books, it’s the only conclusion you can come to.
    I bet if ”god” really exists, he is having great fun seeing you twist and turn, do all kinds of intellectual acrobatics, to excuse the rape torture and death of you fellow women at the the time when they are still innocent children.

    Child rape is wrong. Selling small girls to old pedophiles is wrong. No matter how much you want it to be right it is wrong.

    You muddleheadedness and lack of moral courage will never make it right.

  268. bigstick1,
    It is nice to hear about your neices. Do they cover up in hijab or abaya? If so then its really good that they do not feel the pressure.

    Maybe it also has to do with the attitdue as you say, or being conscious of oneself. But there is also a bias from employers too. The women I know there, do have many firends of different ethnic background, however they find there is a gap, even a small gap, between a covered girl and an uncovered on. The girls who become close firends with a covered girl are ones who are discriminated against or are being bullied or have issues with family …etc.

    About the incident of the burning school, that was wrong and those responsbile for it were punished. You see, those people acted against Islam.

    ” I read that she left her dolls”
    So what if she was playing with dolls. Maybe she enjoyed that. As a grown person don’t you ever play sometimes? A girl of nine plays with a doll. My friend who in her late 30’s still plays with dolls.

  269. The question remains why the vast majority of Muslims, especially the clerics, keep on following these dodgy hadith, and resist any efforts to set a reasonable age for girls to be married off, to wait until they are women. All on the claim of the ”best of men”, the ”example” for all men, to have had sex with a pre teen girl, therefore it’s fine for Muslim men to have sex with toddlers.

    Aafke, it is ridiculous to say that the vast majority of Muslims are resisting efforts to set a reasonable marriageable age since most of the Muslim countries have set up age limit of marriage. It is actually illegal in many Muslim countries for child marriage. I can give you a long list, starting with my country, Malaysia. You really shouldn’t make it as if we Muslims aren’t up to date with the current social principles of what is OK and what is a practise of the past. We do live in the 21st century too and apply what is the norm in our lives, granted we do still uphold religion as a guidance. However, unlike common misconceptions, our religion evolves as time passes, we believe that God has allowed us free will for a reason, to use that free will to apply what is acceptable and what isn’t. That’s why we have all theses clerics and Islamic scholars who updates us on new rulings derived from the basic of our religion and still we are encouraged to have discussions. Take praying while on an air plane for instance, how to pray, time of prayer have been advised. And the prophet’s practise of oral hygiene using miswak. We still clean our teeth, just like he did but with toothpaste. What I’m trying to say is that Islam is not static, it evolves and what is the basic in Islam is the unchangeable part. Islam started from Arabia but as it spread throughout the world, influences from various cultures can clearly be seen, the only thing that remains unchanged is the basic principles, tawheed,

    I believe this writing by a scholar would explain to you beautifully the norms in Islam and the evolution it goes through. http://islam.uga.edu/norms_values.html

  270. God isn’t the insecure one, but I think you are. Why? Because you have to condemn some centuries old cultural norm just because it doesn’t suit our norm now. No one is beating around the bush except you by mincing words.

    If the Muslims persist in this story of a 50 years old man having sex with a pre-teen, then they simultaneously proclaim he was the worst of men.

    No we just know how to understand the difference between modern day norm and ancient practises. We also understood why it was practiced since life expectations, simplicity of life and other factors contributed to this practise being normal.

  271. I feel that the real issue here is not a 9 year old marrying an older man. The real issue is to disort the image of the Prophet and stir up a bad image.

    This shows the “falseness” of their intentions under the pretext of health matters, or playing with dolls, or immaturity …etc

    However if they are really against such a marriage why are they not talking about other cases which happened even before the prophet. Why only this one man? It is not as if he is the one who started this kind of marriage.

    Even the Prophet’s enemies in his time did not use his marriage to undermine him becasuse it was ordinary and natural. Why do they ignore the early marriages in Europe, namely the child empress, Anias(9), Theodora, empress of Byzantium (13), wife of Prince of Jerusalem, Baldwin III, (13) and Margret (9) wife of Izak Anglos II? These marriages took place 5 centureis before the Prophet’s marriage.

    Aafke, you are talking health issues, then why in Japan, Spain, Cyprus, South Korea and Argentina, people can practice sex legally at age 13 and in Canada, age was of consent was 12 until 1890. Age of consent in Mexica is 12, same as Panama and Philippines. This is in 21st century. In USA, age of consent differs state to state; in some it is 14 even and some 120 years ago the age of consent was just 7 in one states of USA.

    And Coolred, sorry but it is not up to you or to USA to force other nations to determine what is accepted or rejected. Thats just the way it is.

    Hwever much we say it cause this health issue or that, we cannot deny the fact that it was happening in those days and it still does – not by one man alone but many. So its not about the issue of the prophet’s marriage but to discredit him with any tools there is.

  272. Mrs B.
    ” Islam started from Arabia but as it spread throughout the world”

    Yes I understand what you are saying. But, Islam started with Adam (as) and the last Prophet came from Arabia – thus the message ended in Arabia not started. Hope you get what I mean. 🙂

  273. Oops yes, my mistake, Sarah 🙂 I meant it the way you understood hehe 🙂 Thanks ukhti Sarah!

  274. Sarah, a few points, ”Adam” as such did not exist, humans evolved from earlier, simians. There were three different early hominids, and Homo Sapiens is the only one who made it until now. Homo Sapiens was nearly extinct as well which is why we come from a very small genepool of a small band of travellers who came out of Africa.

    Let me explain to you the origins of religion, including Islam:

    Religionwise, we know from archeology how religions evovle and they follow somewhat the same pattern although not all at the same time.
    stage one: an idea of after life, spirits of the natural world, and a Great ot mother Goddess. This Mother Godess culture/religion lasted for tens of thousands of years and we still see it’s influence in modern religions today Mecca was a cult centre of a mother goddess religion, probably related to Ereschkigal. The three Goddesses worshipped at the Kaaba before Mohammed decided to overtake the Kaaba for his own cult, were Al Uzza, Al Manat and Allat.

    Anyway, The Mother Goddess cult usually diversifies in a pantheon of different gods, with the great Goddess or Sun Goddesses as the most important one. As humans start to regress into wars male gods become more important and replace the mother goddess at the head of the pantheon.

    Later again starting with the early Egyptians, the idea of one single godhead takes wing, which theory Akhnaton espoused, probably under the influence of his mother Teje and his beloved wife Nefertiti, and this became the sun god cult of Aten.
    After that more groups of people started to like the idea although the Aten cult did not survive its main protagonist Akhnaton.

    the Jews, (Christianity and Islam are spin offs of judaism) had at least three major gods, Elohim, and Ashera, lady of the sea, and the war god Jahweh. the Jews got a couple of beating by other tribes. Gods at this point were still stricktly tribal, one didn’t switch to the gods of other tribes, and there was this kind of hooligan mindset; ”Our Gods are better than your gods) In peaceful times they might even lend a God to another tribe to help out with a problem. Anyway, the Jews got bashed and a small fanatic band of followers of Jahweh took over and banished the other Jewish Gods, that’s why the Old testament is always talking about a jealous god and how bad it is to worship anybody else as Jahweh.

    Then cam Jesus who wanted the Jews to go back to a more fundamental pure Judaism, he was part of a group btw. After he died, some of his followers got the great idea of including members of other tribes into their form of Judaism which later turned into Christianity, and a few hundred years after his death the leaders voted and decided to proclaim Jesus the Son of God.

    Meanwhile, in the Arabia peninsular some merchant wanted more power and used the ”one god” idea, which was followed by a small group of his contemporaries, and there were Jews and early christians around as well, and make it into a personality cult where he was the chosen one, and got Gods share of the booty and slaves he and his gang collected by attacking caravans and peaceful villages.

    Of course in recent times we have lots of conmen claiming to be prophets and starting new religions, they are too many, this comment is getting way too long.

    So, Sarah, now you know your place and the place of your religion in history.

  275. Mrs Bawazir, ok, that should have been ”in some countries”. But it seesm that Malaysia is going down fast, more and more religion, oppression, misogyny and intolerance, I would not be surprised if somewhere in the near future, when Islam gets more hold on the country, they will lower the marriageable age significantly.

  276. Freedom of expression or filth? After the demonstrations and deaths of people — including the killing of the U.S. ambassador in Libya — due to the recent trailer on YouTube about the U.S.-made anti-Islam film “Innocence of Muslims,” now come the French cartoons.

    The cover of French magazine Charlie Hebdo shows a Muslim (The Prophet) in a wheelchair being pushed by an Orthodox Jew titled “Intouchables 2,” inside the magazine are semi-nude cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. “The Satanic Verses,” a book that insulted the Prophet of Islam, comes to mind too. Its author was knighted by the Queen of England.

    Some European laws prohibit Holocaust denial. U.S. laws prohibit hate speech or any expression that can incite violence. Cross burning is criminal in the United States. It can incite of violence. The double standards become obvious when the French Prime Minister Ayrault says “’We are in a country where freedom of expression is guaranteed, including the freedom to caricature.”

    Where does this freedom evaporate, however positively, when it comes to expressing denial of Holocaust? Where is it when French Muslim women are denied the head covering as an expression of their beliefs?

    And in the United States, where does this freedom fly when it comes to Muslim bloggers who give coverage to freedom movements of Hezbollah or Hamas? There may be laws to take your case to the courts, but ask those Muslims who have sought justice for Afia Siddiqui or the bloggers, including those who published — easily available in encyclopedias — bomb making techniques on the Web.

    In Muslim perceptions they all were denied freedom of expression. Sure, bombs kill. But so do the films, books, cartoons and caricatures that result in unruly demonstrators and the death of ambassadors. Sometimes these conniving expressions in books, movies and cartoons can be as lethal as the bomb-making techniques.

    Muslims all over the world are grieved by the insults to the Prophet of Islam in the guise of freedom of expression. The beliefs and traditions of the quarter of the population of the world (1.5 billion Muslims) should be honored. Curbs should be imposed on laws granting freedom of expression in the same manner as the considerations given to the feelings and honor of Holocaust victims and survivors.

    In the manner of cross-burning bans and Holocaust denial laws, the religious beliefs and traditions of Muslims should be honored. The United Nations as well as the International Court of Justice could be instrumental in enacting laws against such expression. Any freedom of expression that incites people to violence and infringes upon the rights, beliefs, traditions and honor of all people, including Muslims, should be banned.

    The legal precedents are there to mitigate the unfortunate and unlawful “Muslim Rage” that has arisen in the last two decades: Salman Rushdie, 1989; Danish Cartoons, 2005; Dutch movie “Fitna”, 2008; criticism of Islam by Pope Benedict XVI, 2006; Qur’an burnings, 2011; and now the latest Hollywood movie, followed by French cartoons, 2012.

  277. You know there seems to me to be people one this blog that think they are experts in religion while the only seem to know what they have read or been topld by others of their religion. this is well and good but not always so. Oh Sarah the idea of early marriage even the Ancient Greeks at least the “Spartans’ believed that girls should not be married until they were at least 18 or close to it.

  278. Mz B:

    Again for many people Religion is a hate speech therefore if you go down this path against those who voice against it then the religious had better be prepared to keep their mouths shut and not to be soliciting its had in the public for any reason as many view religion to be truly evil, vile, murderous, racist, and torturous with an evil madeup sack of crap god.

    Mrs.B:

    Define awrah.

    http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/a_modest_proposal

  279. Sarah:

    No my nieces will not take on a symbol that calls them a sex object (awrah). They view themselves as independent women/girls who view themselves to above this and that they are not the product of what a man makes them but what they make of themselves. They really don’t give a fig what men think in general and if the man cannot accept them for who they are and their aspirations then they don’t need him in their lives. In their eyes it is about partnerships.

  280. Mz. B:

    One other thing. I am sick of a film making adventure or a cartoon ridiculing a prophet being placed at the same level of that as violence by the followers of a hate religion which calls for murder, torture etc. The film actually took items out from the islamic writings so who is to blame ISLAM is for their woes as poeple are just writing about what Islam allows as part of the text.

  281. Sarah:

    Again there are women in this country who see this dresswear as a symbol of offense and the symbol alone insults them so wearing it in school or in the workplace might take one meaning for the wearer but takes on a different meaning for the viewer. Many women see that symbol as an insult to them and their gender. Next there are men who also see it as a symbol which states that men are weak attack animals and therefore cannot control themselves so they see it as an insult as well. Next many view religion as an insult to humanity so the symbol is insulting to many and it can create tension in schools and the workplace.

  282. I appreciate you taking time to give me a history lesson, Aafke. It was quite entertaining. Now tuck that stray hair back into the bun, adjust your apron, hitch up your skirt and move on to your daily chores.

    Life goes on. Would you mind if I called you Simian from time to time, you being related and all? Has a nice ring to it. 🙂

  283. First of all I would appreciate if my marriage was not used as some sort of excuse for why I believe what I believe or argue the things I argue. I had a bad marriage…it had nothing to do with me entering Islam and had nothing to do with me exiting Islam. My thinking brain that always needed to know more and more is what lead me away from Islam. I eventually reached a point when I realized it was just a lie, man made, no better than any other man made religion out there. So please, if you are going to discuss this with me…discuss the topic…not my marriage. One has nothing to do with the other.

    Now….one of the loudest proclamations muslims love to shout out about islam is that it came and reformed the lives of Arab women in a time when they were at their lowest. (historical texts prove this is not exactly the case but let’s go with it).

    It was culturally accepted to trade women like property.
    It was culturally accepted to inherit a woman whose husband had died…along with all her belongings.
    It was culturally accepted to not share booty with her…after all she didnt fight and earn it.
    It was culturally accepted to treat women in ways that made them little more than property and second class citizens at best…nonentities at worse.

    Here comes mohammed with islam to improve the lives of women and do away with these culturally accepted practices because islam was here to save them, uplift them and give them rights and opportunities they never enjoyed before.

    Now muslims on here are trying to have it both ways. First, he came and improved the lives of women. He abolished cultural practices that were harmful to women and gave them a new status in life that improved many different areas of their once miserable lives.

    On the other hand, he didnt care at all to improve the lives of little girls. Muslims here are trying to claim that it was culturally acceptable to marry little girls to old men and nobody cared how it affected these girls. Apparently they were quite happy with it…I mean Aisha hadn’t lost her mind or anything now had she? Apparently they willingly gave consent…even though children WERE considered property and nothing in Islam has ever said otherwise….so what choice did they have but to be given to old men as wives and go willingly? What other life was there for them?

    So let’s see if this makes sense. Improve the lives of women who were suffering culturally accepted abuse…but ignore the culturally accepted abuse of little girls because…? For the one that said god knew that some cultures might not like it in the future…but that other cultures would…so are you saying god was catering to the cultures that would willingly accept their little girls being married to old men???? WTF?

    You say mohammed was the best example of a man for all muslims to follow…and came to raise muslims to a higher moral and ethical plane they had never experienced before because they were little more than fighting barbarians…but still had sex with a little girl because that was considered as morally and ethically ok at the time…but he was setting an example for muslims to follow for all time. Islam is perfect. islam says harm no one (except in self defense) and yet little girls were being harmed. I dont care if the adults in their lives said they were mature and ready for marriage sex and babies…they died more often than not because they simply could not handle birth…yet god was not quite prepared to stop this single most harmful practice the female child has ever had to endure…other than the culturally accepted burying her at birth…but wait that one was done away with too.

    So what if it was culturally accepted practice of the time. Im not even arguing that fact…Im well aware this disgusting act has been going on since men discovered they had a penis and needed somewhere to put it. Any female (and other things) will do…even a female child. So what? What I am arguing is that mohammed was a prophet. He should have done away with this harmful practice (god inspired of course) just like he did away with other harmful practices..and he sure as hell should not have participated in it….because he was supposed to be better than that. HE WAS A PROPHET. Show me one place where it is mentioned that Jesus harmed anyone? I dont even believe in Jesus as a prophet either but at least he behaved like one. Never hurting anyone. Mohammed hurt Aisha by climbing on top of her little body and doing things to her a grown man should not do to a child. Period. Culturally accepted or not…its harmful…he harmed another human being when he very well had a choice not too. And god told him to do it in a dream. I do not care what sort of mental gymnastics you have to twist your mind into to accept that as perfectly ok…but it is plain and simple. He should have been better than the culture he came from…that was the purpose of making him a prophet (supposedly)…to show them how to live morally and ethically better lives. 1450 years later every thing he did, said, liked, disliked etc is followed religiously by one billion people..and some of them fight to marry little girls because he did it too. Now tell me how that is in any way morally or ethically right when, at the very least, god HIMSELF should have cared about the harm it was doing to little girls and said something about it in the quran…to mohammed to speak about…something…ANYTHING because islam had come to improve the lives of arabs…but I guess arab girls missed out big time.

    And the reason this bothers me today when it’s a “done deal”…as I said…you base your whole life and behaviors emulating a man who was in it for purely selfish reasons. He raided caravans..he stole from those caravans..to enrich muslims coffers. Why..because it was culturally accepted at the time? It’s STEALING. He had the men in entire towns murdered for not following in line with his wishes…for not accepting him as prophet. Entire towns…up to 800. What happened to a trial to find if one is guilty (guilty of what…not accepting him as a leader, prophet…did they have too)…oh no…murder them wholesale and people say they were instigators and deserved to die. Really…all 800 of them? And then divying up the women between themselves and having sex with them…shortly after murdering their men. He was a prophet…how is that morally or ethically acceptable. Because it was culturally accepted at the time? He had individuals murdered that wrote poetry against him…who slandered him etc. How was that morally or ethically acceptable?

    Read Ibn Ishaq…read Ibn Hisham…read those early historians of Islam who wrote all this down and didnt bat an eye because it was all just so culturally acceptable…no big deal…he was a prophet so everything he did was right. And you all follow this man like he was some kind of Jesus.

    That is why I have issues with it today…and will keep having issues with it as long as islam affects my life, your life, that stranger I dont knows life…because it is all based on a morally and ethically corrupt individual who fooled an entire race of people (and more…I bet he would be surprised to realize just what he accomplished) into believing he was somehow better than them…and that they should lay down their lives and follow him. What utter B.S.!!

  284. Sorry…and the consequences of what he accomplished in the desert 1450 years ago is having serious affects on the entire planet today. Muslims destroy and kill when they think mohammed has been insulted…why…because he had people killed that slandered and insulted him. They are emulating his behavior. Every harmful act he did in his day is still being followed today by far too many muslims and all the moderate or dont give a damn muslims are making excuses and claiming “that aint islam”. It damn well is…go and read your history books and find out for yourself. It damn well is islam..because islam is mohammed and mohammed is islam. Period.

  285. I’ve often thought Muhammad would be a much better prophet if he lead by (good) example rather than exception. I never fell for that whole limiting all the Muslim men to four wives at a time EXCEPT for Muhammad. A bit too convenient when it’s the same guy getting revelations from God, if you know what I mean.

  286. Cool Red …
    And you don’t think that the fallacies of Judaism, the Catholic empire and others haven’t harmed people? Believers of any religion will follow along blindly with whatever ridiculous doctrine they are told to follow.
    I make the same comment to others on this board who hate Islam so much. All your continual slamming does is make the faithful even more faithful and reinforces their view that you have no respect for others who think differently from you.

  287. Wendy…it’s only “slamming” if it isn’t true. How can telling the truth be considered slamming? I believe ALL religions are man made and have done more harm in the name of god than any possible good.

    Again…where does it say I have to respect an idea…a belief…a religion? Nowhere. I don’t hate islam…islam is just a thing. How do you hate a thing? I hate the way muslims have venerated a morally and ethically corrupt man into a demi god…and defend that belief with excuse after excuse when their own historians have told the open blatant truth about him…and it isn’t good…yet they still excuse and explain it away. I don’t hate islam…I hate the blindness associated with a belief…no matter how farfetched, corrupt, or harmful. Islam is just a thing, mohammed was JUST a man…neither of them would have amounted to a thing without followers. They are what made islam dangerous for the world today.

  288. Wendy,*and reinforces their view that you have no respect for others who think differently from you.*

    And murdering innocent people shows what? That you have lots of respect for other people? That you deserve respect because you go around in murdering mobs?

  289. AA et el … the people on this forum are not murdering anybody. You and others seem to class the billion Muslims in the world all in one big lump. Do you think having drones accidentally kill innocents in Afghanistan to be okay? Is it all Americans who are doing it?

    People who have faith have faith. For most it is comforting. For most they just live their lives in a calm and reasonable fashion minding their own business. Spewing hatred on either side is bad so all the people here who spew out their hatred of Islam ad nauseum are right? Trying to prove what? To who?

    It just gets to be too much and in almost every topic Carol posts it goes back to Islam bashing. Do any of you think you’re going to change the minds of the Muslims reading this blog? No you are not. You probably are reinforcing their faith.

    Start going after the good Christians on here who believe their fictional books and scriptures for a change.

  290. Coolred,
    Sorry for bringing you own marriage into this discussion. It was just a thought. Won’t do it again – I promise 🙂

    Ok, I will clarify it for you once more. Aisha’s parents are the the ones who married her to the prophet. No one at that time even objected to this marriage. Even the staunchest enemy of the Prophet did not bring this topic to discredit him. Why: because as you know it was an accepted thing back then.

    The life span used to be very short and girls married as soon as they matured. And you can see this still happening in 3rd world countries and rural areas where people expect to live shorter lives.

    So, Coolred, you can see the absurdity to call him a pedophile when his marriage was agreed by her parents and by the people in the community.

    Refer to child marriages in Europe and other parts of the world before the prophet’s time, above. If you want more references, I can give you but I don’t think you need that.

    Jesus’ mother, Mary was 12 when she was engaged to the 90 year old Joseph, according to Christian resources. And in Talmud girls got married at the age of 3. So why only the prophet is a molester?

    Coolred, it was Aisha herself who narrated the hadith of her marriage when she was 9. She did not mention anything of not wanting to marry. The women prepared her for marriage and they were alright with this – nothing unusual. All all these women along with Aisha’s parents arecollabortors in the “crime”?

    She was engaged to another non-muslim before and it was broken because of the fact that he was non-muslim. So that man must also be a pedophile in your silly logic!

    You must understand that Aisha was very intellgent and was very knowledgeable in matters of Islam. She even attained the level of a scholar whereby many would come to her from far for answers. If she was abused as a child, she would be emotionally, mentally, even physically devastated and not be able to carry out all her achievements. She also loved the prophet very dearly. Would someone love their molestor?

    Very young people in those days did things that we would not consider doing now. For example Osmama bin Zayd was appointed as commander of an army which faced the Roman Christians. In his command the army defeatd them. Osama was only 16 to 18 years old.

    Why is it that you cannot understand that marrying mature girls is not a bad thing. These deays, women opt to study, work, play around before thinking of settling down. Some just live with partners, never marrying. This is all ok because you say so. In those days, women did not have that ambition to study more and work, their job was to be woman with household work. Their ambition was to be able to get married.

    Again I ask you, do you know more than god? If god says something, who are we to object and say its harmful? Did he not say in the Quran that there may be a thing which we will not like but it is good for us and vice versa? So who are we to judge on what He tells us?

    Marrying young girls was a better thing to do. A young girl who is not married off will find it difficult to find a husband later on. So there was nothing to do in terms of beterring the lives of little girls as you put it. Aisha did not lose her mind. She accepted to be married and was full of praise for her husband.

    Children are not considered property but as a continuation of the family lineage. They are property in the sense they belong to the family or tribe. Children have rights. They should not be deprived of their basic needs as well as educaton, should not be killed, should be bought up well. A healthy and well-mannered child is cosidered a gift of God and children are considred a blessing. They have a choice especially in a marriage. If a girl does not consent, the marriage is null and void.

    There was no abuse of children. Marrying them is not abusing them.

    Listen, Coolred, as I said countless time that in that culture it was accepted, ok? and nowadays it is a bit strange (even though it still happens). Who is to say that a time might come in the future where it might again be practised. As someone mentioned before, phases keep going round and round. There may come a time when people need to marry young. So again, who knows more, you or God?

    Yes he had sex with a girl – that is supposed to happen in a marriage. Did he do that to many girls, did he marry many girls? It was just one. And he married her in a legal acceptable way.

    ” mohammed was a prophet. He should have done away with this harmful practice ”

    You say it is harmful according to your thinking but in those days it was normal and not harmful and it was beneficial even so why should he do away with it. Yes he was the best example. He also married older women to help them. Why don’t you ever mention that. He did not hurt anyone. It is only your mind that thinks that. Do you think a “victim” of abuse will praise her abuser and even be jealous of him? Come on!

    I don’t care what gymnastic you have to do to try to discredit the prophet, we are not buying it and we love and honor him and he is an example for mankind. Think what you may.

  291. Hey, Wendy, I salute and stand up to applaud you! 🙂

  292. I go after Christians all the time?

  293. True but not like this. People have their right to their beliefs just as you and I have our right to not believe in organized religions or to simply not believe if that’s the case. There comes a point when this continual hammering and slamming just becomes sickening.

  294. Sorry, I just have to say that we don’t actually know how old Aisha was but the preponderance of evidence puts Aisha at much older than 6 or 9. More like 15-18 which would make it completely ordinary for pretty much every culture at that era.

    And Wendy. Thank you.

  295. I’m not trying to change any Muslims mind…here or anywhere else. I use to be one. I fell for the whole thing hook, line and sinker just like every other Muslim out there. I know how hard it is to change someone’s religious beliefs because I use to have them. I know that I cannot do that…only you can (any you). You have to what every exmuslim out there has done at some point. Dig deeper and be willing to do it with the desire to learn. I did not start researching Islam with the intention to convince myself it was a lie…I did it to know more. Strengthen the faith I already had because I KNEW it was true…but the saying goes…the truth will set you free. I had no reason or excuse to believe it was all true when I learned that it wasn’t. He was just a man….a typical Arab that found a way to convince those around him he was something he wasn’t.

    I’m not trying to convince a single Muslim that Islam is a man made religion inspired by a power hungry man on an ego trip…for you have to find that out for yourself…if you even have the courage the look. Nope…I’m not trying to convince you of a damn thing…my target audience are all the lurkers who read but never comment. Who might be considering converting based on little more than the whitewashed Islam is peace hype they always hear. Those that know good Muslims so believe Islam is good…not understanding that religion doesn’t make you good…being a good person makes you good…despite your religion. I’m trying to stop people converting to an idea, a belief without first thoroughly researching and learning all there is to know. If they do that and still want to convert than at least they went into it with eyes wide open. Most of us do not.

    Yes there are plenty of people who call themselves Muslims who live good lives…good for them…I believe you are already good people because people are basically good. They don’t need a religion to make them good…but in some cases they need one to make them bad.

  296. Wendy:

    This is why religion shouid remain private and not in governments or the public not until that happens don’t expect those of us who have to hear about the boogyman god to be quite. Maybe the religious need to do the same and keep it to themselves and away from people who find it offensive.

    Sandy:

    The preponderance of evidences actually suggests that the hadith are a bunchof made up stories.

    Sarah:

    No where is there an actually age for Mary and in fact there is no evidence that mary actually existed. There is also no known age for Joseph. There is no picture of Mary, Joseph or of Jesus either. So don’t give me the spew of garbage of what Mary allegedly looked like as it doesn’t exist.

    Next, the God of the OT cannot defeat iron chariots either. Rewards his followers with tragedy on a bet with the advocate (satan). The devil and hell was later invented as it doesn’t exist nor is it described in the OT.

    Maybe you can study the gnosis texts who spin the whole genesis story around and makes the snake the good guy and God the evil enslaver.

    Until you produce God then yes I know better than some primate tribal thug who claimed god existed created a written instructions for a bunch of sheep who can be lead to jump off a damn cliff. So, yes I know better than god as the god of written texts is a bunch of idiots who wrote it mostly for the purpose of hate, control of puss@, money, and power.

    Guess what I am a prophet and God has spoken to me let me write it down, wait God says I can have another wife, wait God says I can have my adopted son’s wife, wait God says I can have multiple partners, wait god says I can have booty, wait gods says I can kill you if you disagree with me, wait gods says I can kill other clans and keep the women as sex slaves for myself, wait god says I will be rewarded with puss@ in the sky. It is good to be the God no I mean a prophet. (hahahahahahah) What a bunch of lame A@@ losers who will believe anything.

    You have your belief system that I have to hear about so it is only fair to let you hear about my belief system. Fair is Fair.

  297. And while I’m on about it I have not have a relative or Muslim friend try and tell me I should embrace Islam or tell me that Christianity sucks or that Catholic priests are pedophiles or any anything close to it. They allow me to be me. End of story.

  298. Really Bigstick,religion should remain private but your atheism can be out in the open.?you are worst than any heretic cleric I have ever came across! Why? You are a hypocrite,thats why.you pretend to be a guy calling for peace and hate evil but the way you contantly slam other peoples choice is a total contradiction! You think religion is insuting? Many of us thinks claiming there is no God as insulting so what then??
    And because the prophet Muhammad has exceptions means its convenient Susanne? He is a prophet and if you bothered to study his biography, you would see the reason of his many marriages was for political reasons as well as welfare(widows, divorcees). And there is a different between a prophet and God if you get what I mean.

  299. Since you mention it Bigstick, according to your logic, maybe the atheists should keep their own disbelieve to themselves away from ppl who find their filth offensive and until that happens, dont expect us to keep quiet. Tit for tat 😉 and it is utterly stupid to lump all Muslims as murderous oppressors! It is irreonsible.

  300. Mrs. B:

    Until the religious stop talking about their religion and demanding others to adhere to their hate ideology don’t count on it. Atheist and thinkers have had to put up with the religious hatemongers for a long damn time.

    I haven’t singled out solely Islam. I have no use for any religion that advocates murder, slavery, homophobia, child rape, domestic abuse, gender aparthied and racism. Which by the way also includes Judiasm, Christianity and Islam. Each one of the this books were written by man for the purposes of control and hate. The only way God got included was because someone wrote the word in nothing more.

  301. Bigstick, if you believe religion should be private why are you discussing it then?
    I have not seen Muslim posters here attacking the religion or non-religion of other posters unless they have been really provoked. Nobody tells Aafke Art or myself that we should practice a religion. Nobody has tried to convert any of us so why is it necessary to continually go after Islam? The majority of the billion plus Muslims just want to be left to their faith.

  302. I don’t think any of us should “stop” Coolred. We do not know her real intentions for asking the same question but whatever they maybe, at some point she might get bored, disgrunted, confused and go away or she just might understand the issue and move on. But our part is to clear her doubts. She maybe using nasty words and tones but in her “free” world which is a bottomless pit, you can go any depth of lowness. We on the other hand prefer to maintain our dignity and honor and do not want to stoop so low. So carry on answering her queries only to make her grasp the idea and good will.

    It is well to know the message in the Book when the blind man approaches the prophet wanting to know answers but the prophet was busy with some Quraish noblemen and so he frowned at the blind man and turned away. He was reprimanded for his actions asking him to respond to the poor man becaue his intentions were genuine.

    So we cannot turn away anyone whatever they appear to be, unless it becomes very apparent to us what the real intentions are – either to discredit and defame the prophet or to sincerely to understand.

    So far, Coolred has not responded to my last reply neither has she answered so many of my own questions to her. Hope things are more clear now, Coolred and I wish you well.

  303. Bigstick1
    ” There is no picture of Mary, Joseph or of Jesus either. So don’t give me the spew of garbage of what Mary allegedly looked like as it doesn’t exist”

    I did not do that and why would I?. I have never mentioned how she looked like at all. How in the world did you get from my comment?!

  304. Sarah…thanks for the well wishes but I’m not going away…and the only answer you have offered is…it was culturally accepted at the time. If that’s all you have to support your excuse then you are making my argument too easy. Carry on.

    Btw what have you asked me that I’m reluctant to answer?

    Also, your entire comment about me really sounds like an argument f last resort…Coolred is miskeena. Let’s hope she gets better real quick. As that your way of saying…Ive got nothing so let’s derail the direction of this train wreck of a defense?

    I thought so too. Carry on.

  305. Coolred38,
    Oh, I am disappointed that after so many long answers, all you got was one thing. I am sure I have written many, many things. English is not my first language and I try my best to explain in simple and best way that I can. I am sorry, I am failing.

    About those questions I asked you, I will list them later as it is late here.
    🙂
    Good night

  306. “… but in her “free” world which is a bottomless pit, you can go any depth of lowness. We on the other hand prefer to maintain our dignity and honor and do not want to stoop so low. ”

    Not a very honorable statement in my opinion.

    Regarding freedoms, Sarah, would I be free to practice my religion (Buddhism) in the country you live in?

  307. Wendy:

    First and foremost the OIC is attempting to try to stop freedom of speech again through the UN. Next they in their countries kill people for blasphemy of the rapist (also known as mohammad) and himself (also known as mohammade but is a manmade god). Next, I believe it was the religious that went nuts over a film and killed people over it, they also commit honor killings not only in those countries but in the west, they (Abrahamic religions) create hate for homosexuals and many of the problems for women hinge on the stupidity of the religious nut jobs. Let’s us now look at what the Catholic Church and their stupid doctrines on condoms and what this is doing to millions in Africa. They are culpable for thousands upon thousands of deaths just recently. Next the idiots and the doctrines of hate have created the uterus to be more of value than a woman in addition they are not pro-life but pro-birth as they want more people but are happy to watch them die in poverty, lack of medical care due to hate doctrines, or institutionalized racism, homophobia, slavery, prostitution or femocide. That of course is if they are not raping your kids. Of course you better hope the killing God (Abrahamic) doesn’t decide to kill of the wicked children, infants and unborn along with the animals. Hell who said the bastasd was pro-life according to their sources he is pro-death, pro-hate, pro-torture, pro-rape, pro-child abuse, pro-spousal abuse, pro-gambling, pro-racist, pro-slavery, pro-stupidity, pro-jealousy, and pro-whorehouse in the sky. That just what I can think of just off the top of my head.

    This is just the tip of the tip of issues involving the religious. So I have no intention of stopping my addressing the issues until the religious bigotry of hate, racism, homophobia (created by the hate mongers), mind numbing (rote follower), non-critical thinking, gender hating, apostate killing, blasphemy killing, domestic abuse instigator, child raping, child abuse, psychological damaging (sex is sin crap, etc.), inquisitists, witch (unfreaking believable) killing, and other religious hate stops. Until then I intend to stand against it and it’s doctrines of hate and lunancy and the organized crime institutions (also know as churches, mosques and synogogues).

    So I intend to continue to speak against religion until their hateful destructive dogma is caged or at least back under control. Then you watch it like the evil that it is and try to keep it contained.

    Sarah:

    I thought I do a pre-emptive strike as that is generally the next thing out of Muslim women is this is the dresswear of the fictitional mary where no picture exists of any of them.

  308. Coolred, wouldn’t want you to go away. I will miss you. 🙂

    First of all, I am repesenting my case not as an excuse but as a fact. You may feel it is excuse because you got it fixed in your head that what you think just got to be right and all others cannot be right.

    And its not last resort since I have been saying this from the start. Yes you are miskeena and so are we all. And please do not see it as of I got nothing. This makes me think that you are not reading or I am not carrying my message clearly.

    Now, since you say all I said was one thing, here is a list of what I said: Read it carefully and ponder on it please.
    1- It was cultural practise to marry young not only in pre-islamic period but centuries before that in all parts of the world.
    2- Prophet cannot be a pedophile since his characteristics does not match the behaviour of a pedophile
    3- Aisha was already engaged before so that other man must also have been a pedohpile according to your thinking and all others who married young must all be pedophiles including Joesph and the women who helped Aisha to get married must all be collaborators in this “crime” according to your thinking.
    4 -What have you got against 2 people getting married. I know in your cutlure people need not be married to have a relationship or even have babies but these two were honorably married so what is wrong with having a relationship? Do you find it strange because it does not happen in your culture?
    5 – Aisha loved the prophet. Can you think of anyone who loved their molestor and praised him highly? Didn’t think so.
    6 – Aisha was a very intelligent woman and narrated many a hadiths in her time. She was elevated to a level of a scholar. An abused child would be devasted in all ways and not achieved what Aisha had achieved.
    7 – People back then did things at an age what we think are very young because we live in a different era. Maybe centuries from now people will laugh at the way we are living now. Things are not stagnant, they keep changing. I gave you example of Osama who was commander of an army that defeated Roman Chritians and he was only 16-18 years of age. Can you see that happening these days?
    8 – Matured girls can be married if they consent to it. If they do not then the marriage is not valid. Aisha accepted the proposal. In her hadith narration, she does not mention anywhere that she did not want to get married or that she was abused.
    9 – Even the staunchest enemy of the Prophet did not bring this topic to discredit him because he did not see anything in this marriage to bring the prophet down.
    10- The life span used to be very short and girls married as soon as they matured. And you can see this still happening in 3rd world countries and rural areas where people expect to live shorter lives.
    11 – Girls those days had only one ambtion and that is to get married unlike today, where they want to study more, work, have relationships, have kids and then finally may think of marriage if at all.
    12- Who is to say that a time might come in the future where early marraige might again be practised. There may come a time when people need to marry young.

    There maybe some points missed but anyhow all these points in one direction – that the marraige of Aisha was legal and honorable, culturally and by religion. Do you have any references to prove that this action was illegal? Is so bring it out. Show me where it says that it was no allowed and that he was pedophile. I will be happy to see those references.

    Questions not asnwered by you:
    1-If he was a pedophile then why did he not marry other young girls? Why did he marry at all? Most of his wives were older than him.Is that one of the signs of pedophile?
    2- If a couple want to get married, who are we to object? When even her own parents did not object, why are you objecting?
    3- In a free society such as yours where even gays can get married and live together, why does this true marriage between a couple seem so wrong to you?
    4- Why stamp out something which was the norm for that era?
    5- on what basis are you saying the Prophet should have behaved better? By having extramaritial affair, cheat on her – these are very common in your socoity but the prophet behaved honorably by marrying her. Which of these behavior sounds better to you? Tell me what is the honorable thing to do? Why should it be stopped by god or him?
    6 – Go back in your history and ask those people why they did that – those who were not even following the prophet or Muslims. Why were they following this “disgusting” practice?
    7 – Who knows more, God or you?

    Have a good day and keep smiling 🙂

  309. Coolred, if you got no references, you got nothing.

  310. bigstick,
    “I thought I do a pre-emptive strike as that is generally the next thing out of Muslim women is this is the dresswear of the fictitional mary where no picture exists of any of them”

    That is so lame. I was not even thinking about that.

    Anon
    “Regarding freedoms, Sarah, would I be free to practice my religion (Buddhism) in the country you live in?”

    I was talking about the freedom in your country. So your question does not apply – sorry.

  311. Sarah:

    You know after reading your comments you make me dislike Islam even more.

    Coolred:

    Clearly she is a cultist.

  312. Sarah:

    From the blog post: “Show solidarity and support for tolerance.” So, I think that it is relevant to the original topic whether or not I have the freedom to practice my religion in your country.

    I repeat my question, “Regarding freedoms, Sarah, would I be free to practice my religion (Buddhism) in the country you live in?”

  313. Sarah…a complete lists of excuses that boil down to just one thing…he was a prophet who slept with a little girl. Fine, he wasn’t a pedophile, who cares….he should have been better than the culture he came to improve. You say Aisha adored him and apparently didnt show signs of abuse etc…can you imagine that I went to school for 12 years and not a single person knew what my father was doing to me…not one of them. Just because we don’t show signs of abuse or other people don’t notice a thing…doesn’t mean we aren’t being harmed in some way. Also, even if she did love him, so what? My original argument is still valid.

    Also you asked for references or it isn’t true. I have given you references again and again. The original biography on mohammed was done by Ibn Ishaq…and then later Ibn Hisham took what remained of his work and did his own work. Both of those are the foundation for the history and biography of mohammed. Those authors are considered paramount to understanding all that is known about mohammed…and are used in universities and islamic study centers and have been so for centuries. I won’t quote a single thing from it because the whole book needs to be read. You need to read it if you haven’t then you will understand that I am not the one making this stuff up…it’s already been known and been known for centuries…scholars of islam read those books every damn day. They know it’s true…and that information is out there for any muslim to read…in all it’s unvarnished glory…but by the time it makes it to the masses..it has been whitewashed and filtered to be more palatable for the more sensitive muslims and potential converts. Don’t believe me…then go read it.

    You don’t want to take the time to read it then that is your problem, and failure, but don’t get on here and say I haven’t provided any references when I darn well have…and there are no better references than those.

  314. Coolred,
    ” Fine, he wasn’t a pedophile, who cares”
    Then promote that like you were promoting that he was.

    You asked me not to bring your own personal issues and you are bringing it up yourself here. I had promised not to bring your marriage into this but not about your father so I can talk about it. Was your father abusing you sexually as Aisha was according to you? its none of my business and I dont want you to answer it here nor I want to know. The only reason I asked was I want you to think about it?

    Victims of child abuse will be emtionally scarred.

    ” Also, even if she did love him, so what?”
    My question stands :Does a victim of abuse love and follow her abuser? Does she praise him highly, does she even feel jealous of him? Not any sign of distate to married to such a man?

    “I have given you references again and again”
    I was asking for Quran/Hadith references but ok let us take those bios you are mentioning – where is the reference – you only mentioned names. Does it specify anywhere that Aisha was abused by a pedophile? If so please give me the quote. You say you wont quote because the whole thing has to be read. So you have not read it and therefore your argument has nothing. I know you are not making it up – you heard it from here and there and you just accepted it because it suits you.

    “Those authors are considered paramount to understanding all that is known about mohammed”
    And on whose authority are you saying this? Just because unis are studying this does not make it paramount. Even Quran and Hadith are studied in unis. So what makes these authors paramount, Coolred? Because you find some points there which fits into your thinking?

    “but don’t get on here and say I haven’t provided any references”
    You haven’t so your argument is very weak. You are asking me to read what you yourself have not read and you claim that scholars read it daily and thus it is true. What kind of logic? They even read newspapers daily. I have yet to see a quote from your ref saying Aisha was abused as a child and never showed any signs of it throughout her life and never once even hinted about it in hadiths that she married a pedophile who happened to be her abuser.

    But still I thank you for trying to give me a ref. 🙂

  315. I suggest anyone who takes Ibn Ishaq’s word on anything consider learning more about Ibn Ishaq. He never knew the prophet and there is plenty of evidence he is not the authority on all that happened. And even his works only survived in fragmented form.

  316. Absolutely second that!

  317. sarah:

    And on whose authority are you saying this? Just because unis are studying this does not make it paramount. Even Quran and Hadith are studied in unis. So what makes these authors paramount, Coolred? Because you find some points there which fits into your thinking?

    Just as you find your agrument fits into your thinking which others rightfully disagree with and can provide the same source material to back there stance.

  318. Sarah and Sandy…all the information you have on Mohammed was collected over 200 years after his death…so nothing written was done while he was alive. Of course Ibn Ishaq wouldn’t have known him…but he collected all the information he could find and went from there. If it wasn’t for him there would be very little known about mohammed.

    I notice it makes absolutely no difference to Muslims what you provide as source…if they don’t like it they don’t accept it as a source. I could care less if you accept it, that doesn’t mean others don’t and have done so for centuries. Muslims say you have to know the context…and here is the context for so much of what he did, but still…refusal to listen.

    I use my own experience as reference because I have been there, I know what it feels like, how I behaved etc. unless it has happened to you how can say with any authority how Aisha felt? You believe what historians say about her well being etc but not what they say about Mohammed’s actions? Why? How do ou pick and choose what is authentic and what isn’t? Based on your own personal feelings?

    Yes, only fragments of Ibn Ishaqa work remains and Ibn Hisham did his own follow up work and they are considered foundation writers in the early life of Mohammed. The Muslim tendency to reject that which they can’t swallow easily is obvious and glaring…even their own Muslim historians get the down vote…even when those historians have been accepted by Muslims as an authority in the life of Mohammed.

    Whatever…this argument bores me. I like a discussion/argument that actually goes somewhere…provides some intellectual stimulation…all I’m getting is but but…he wouldn’t hurt a flea…much less a child…and little girls LOVED being married to older men and led long fulfilling lives (oh wait, many of them didn’t, wonder if that’s why the order to not bury them alive came about…they were killing off their marriage prospects) as if they had a damn choice in the matter. Muslims believe he was the perfect man that never harmed anyone that didnt deserve it…despite the evidence he was not. How do you argue with that?

  319. Here is an interesing video

  320. Sarah,
    I think what Coolred is saying is that if Muhammad was the best of men and worthy of emulation AND Islam is for all time AND Allah is all knowing then is why did Allah allow his best prophet to marry a child? Modern society has realized that sex and motherhood at young ages are not healthy. Girls that are 9 or even 14 are not mentally or physically ready for sex or childbirth, look up fistula an see what happens to girls too young becoming mothers. While you can argue that marrying girls at 6 and then consummate at 9 was normal during old times (though the list of girls who married young by your fellow apologist were at least 13 which is a normal age to get your first menstruation) Allah all-knowing should have realized his creation needed to be older than 9 to be mature enough to marry and relayed that to Muhammad. Kind of like how Muhammad tried to abolish slavery Allah thru Muhammad could have had Muhammad tell his followers thaet 9 is too young foiles are reviled critics of Islam could not point to Ayatollahs and Sheikhs who emulating the best of men in stating 9 year old girls are ok to marry are sick pedophiles. I can’t help but wonder how many girls Allah could have saved from pain and anguish or even death had his best of men prophet Muhammad would have saved his consummating the marriage with Aisha until she was a little bit older. Maybe he could have waited at least until she stopped playing with dolls??
    ed at least until she stopped playing with dolls??
    As to Aisha loving her Muhammad and not acting like an abused girl; you do realize that pedophiles are good at luring children into trusting and even loving their abuser? Often those close to the child do not even realize the child is being abused.
    As to Muhammad not showing signs of pedophilia because he married older women you do realize that pedophiles do that a lot to conceal their true natures? There are hadiths that state that Aisha was Muhammad’s favorite and he loved her most. Even his other wives realized that he’d rather be with Aisha then them.

    To All,

    I find it hilarious that the Prophet of Muslims and the Prophets of Mormons are so alike. Both married poligamously and to young girls. Both are accused of pedophilia. Both are said by the adherents of each faith to be the best of men and worthy of emulation. Apologist for both faiths use the same excuses to try and excuse the pedophilic prophets. I kept reading Sarah’s defence of Muhammed and realizing that wait a minute I’ve heard this “honorable marriage” crap before!

  321. My point Coolred- is that Muslims have not universally accepted this (or many other sources) as a source from the beginning. And just because people study it- doesn’t mean they accept everything there.

    And still- when evidence overall is compiled on this topic- most likely Aisha was much older when she married.

  322. Sandy:

    Try watching the video that I put up and reading the website i posted.

    Next, are there days you feel like have Wall have my Head. Have my Head hitting the Wall?

    Quite frankly you know that I think it is all bogus but I have zero belief that anything of any value comes from the hadith other than a not well written story.

    However, you are still a great person. Even with your belief in the Quran. 🙂

  323. Coolred
    You are clearly diverting from the subject. You are saying now that there is no need to bring authentic references and that your own personal expereince is enough. How ridiculous is that! You are dragging your own case into this after telling us not to do that.

    Now, Coolred, I want to tell you that you are not the only one to have had a bad marriage or have been abused. You say that victims do not ususally show signs. But you, Coolred, cannot stop talking about it, you write about it, you show your anger about it, it always somehow comes up, you drag your own experience into it – these are part of the emotional scars. It is okay to do that, I am not saying you shouldn’t. My point is all those bad things is effecting you, know it or not. Now you will have an emotinal outburst saying its nothing like that and deny the whole thing.

    Aisha did not write about it like you are doing, she did not talk about it like you are. She did not even hint at it.

    Fine, you don’t have any hard evidence to back up your claim. You are saying ” I have been there, I know what it feels like, how I behaved etc. unless it has happened to you how can say with any authority how Aisha felt?” From that, I feel that you are feeling sorry for yourself. How can you say you know how she felt like when you don’t even know her and base it on assumptions. It does not make any sense to me. And how do you assume that no one else had this “happen” to them. Do you know everyone personally?

    I can ask you also, why do you believe in some unfinished writing of a shady man than on some authentic narrations based on the science of hadiths?

    Now you say you are bored. And that you would rather discuss something that goes somewhere – meaning going in your favor, lol. Anyway, Coolred, seeing that you have no reference and you just beating around the bush, nothing of what you said holds weight. There is no point to continue.

    Thanks all the same, I did enjoy the discussion. 🙂

  324. Sarah –

    You haven’t answered my post about whether or not it would be OK for me to practice my religion in your country. Should I infer that it is not?

    This is not relevant to the discussion about Mohammed and his wives, but it is relevant to the discussion about tolerance for religions. Those who practice Islam who have contributed to this discussion have complained about how they have friends who were subject to some issues because they practiced aspects of their religion (i.e., wore hijab) in the US. I really didn’t feel that this could go without comment any longer.

    Practicing Islam is legal in the US. One can legally wear hijab. Niqab can be a different issue in some circumstances, because this covers areas of the face that are used for identification. However, it’s not completely illegal. I often see women in hijab where I live, on their way to work (I presume, as this occurs on my commute), and I have seen women in hijab in workplaces many times. I do occasionally see women in niqab. There is no mosque in the suburb where I live, as far as I know, but there is a large one in the neighboring one. Those who practice Islam can convert others to their faith legally. They can also legally leave Islam if they so choose.

    Does my religion enjoy similar legal protection in countries where Islam is the predominate religion?

    If the answer is no, and we are discussing tolerance, I would ask that Islam show some tolerance here. I am using the definition of tolerance as allowing freedom of religion. I wouldn’t expect someone practicing Islam to think that my religion is as good as theirs. And, actually, I don’t expect to have any say in their country’s laws. However, if citizens of another country complain about inconveniences in practicing their religion in my country, and agree with their country’s laws prohibiting the practice of my religion in theirs, I feel the need to point out the hypocrisy in this.

  325. Anon, I replied to you but I think its eaten up by the spam filter.

  326. would I be free to practice my religion (Buddhism) in the country you live in? Anon, where I live, you can practice in peace your Buddhism but ask that same question to the Muslims in Myanmar (Rohingya)!

  327. Bigstick, the sound of your comment seems to show how terribly annoyed you are, you sound awfully emotional (with your choices of words). Is Islam getting to you? Get a grip!

  328. Mrs. Bawazir:

    You live in Malaysia, I believe?

    I have been told by someone very knowledgeable that I can indeed practice in peace, but that a believer in Islam could not legally convert to Buddhism (or any other religion) if they choose, and that I am not legally allowed to encourage believers in Islam to convert to my religion. This type of limitation is for believers in Islam only. If that is not true, you should correct the Wikipedia entry, which agrees with what I have been told previously. If it is true, it is much better than many other countries, but it is not complete religious freedom.

    Myanmar clearly has had a lack of personal freedom of all kinds for many years. It does look as if it extends to religious freedom – again, according to Wikipedia, it looks as Islam is not the only religion that faces persecution; the entry mentions Christianity and Buddhism as well (some Buddhists may be discriminating against Muslims, but other Buddhists are also facing discrimination apparently). Although it seems as if life there is improving, I certainly agree that many things, including religious freedom, could still stand improvement.

  329. I guess Moderators are not active today….

  330. Sarah…really you make me laugh. How can I be upset with someone who clearly has no idea what this argument/debate is about. You seem to think it’s about the “honorable marriage” mohammed engaged in…and Im on a whole other level with…but he was a prophet and should have behaved better. He set the precedent for muslims to follow. God should have known the future and the future would not morally or ethically accept old men marrying little girls…so why not cut that crap out with mohammed…right then and there and save all future muslim girls from such forced “honor”? You don’t understand that argument do you? Just say so and I will understand…don’t be too harsh on yourself. Not everyone is able to see the bigger picture.

    Btw I said don’t bring my marriage into this argument as if my bad marriage is the reason I have issues with islam. It isn’t, as I told you. Period. End of story. I mentioned my abuse akin to what Aisha experienced because that is something completely different. Affinity…do you know what that means? I felt affinity with what she must have gone through because I went through it too. Nothing to do with my marriage and how I feel about marriage. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Again…you don’t seem to understand the argument/comment whatever that I put forth. I write about it NOW, I talk about it NOW…because I can and I hope that my experience will help others in some way….and if all the private emails I receive and comments on my blog are anything to go by then yes, I am helping some people. Again…not even close to what I said about child abuse. We can suffer it without anyone knowing. If you were abused as a child you would know exactly what I mean by that statement.

    Aisha didn’t write about it or talk about it…so that means it never happened? Is that your argument? Holy hell, girl…abused children…heck even abused women rarely ever talk about it. That proves absolutely nothing. And I might add…since you pointed it out…her culture had no issue with her being forced to have sex with an older man…so obviously she was raised to believe it was normal…so why would she complain. She would accept it as all children of abuse do (including my own children and myself) because we know of no other life without abuse. For us the abuse is normal…until we learn or are told that it is not. Again, you would have to have been abused to understand that.

    Now i have no idea how old you are but your debating skills lack maturity. You just keep going round and round the same bush…it was culturally accepted at the time…blah blah blah…now move on to the next thing cause that’s the only answer your getting for this one. Might be good enough for you but some of us demand more from a so called prophet. . And where did I say you don’t need authentic references even once? I’m trying to get you to read authentic references…you don’t want to. Up to you. You can lead a horse to water or some such thing. Then again…now you claim he is shady..of course all Muslims who write less than honorable about the prophet (though that wasn’t his intention to discredit the guy…just write his life down) are now suspect and without credibility or respect. The usual spiel.

    As I mentioned…I’m not trying to convince you of anything..obviously that is impossible…but I know others are reading and I hope they will find the time to go research. Well worth their time.

  331. Mrs. B

    Don’t know where you get that from.

  332. CoolRed it is obvious that what has happened to you in your life has coloured your life in a very sad way. I’m sorry that it seems you are unable to move on.

    Fact:-
    Nobody knows exactly how old Aisha was.
    Nobody knows whether or not she was abused or felt abused.
    Nobody knows whether the earth was created in 7 days and there are many theories about what a day means in translation.
    Nobody knows for sure what Mohamed or Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples or ancient prophets looked like.

    If you take those two absolute facts then what is everybody arguing about?

  333. Should have typed four facts, not two. 🙂

  334. Coolred, if I am making you laugh, I am really glad. Need to release some of that stress, eh? 🙂

    If there is anyone who is laughing it is me because I just love the way you twist and turn. One comment its about this and in another its about that. lol

    Ok no worries. Now you are turning to the “honorable marriage” thing. I have already addressed that before. Maybe you did not read it so I will just go through it again quickly and I had asked this question to you and you did not answerr me. In what way do you think the prophet should have behaved honorably? By having an affair outside of marriage, by cheating on her and his wives …etc? All these maybe honorable in your culture but it is not in prophet’s life. He married her legally and accepted by her parents and people around them. So what is so not honorable about that? And what should he have done?

    Yes God knows the future. So – do you know better than God? (I asked this before but there was no answer). If God thinks its okay for matured girls to be married then why is it a prolem for you? Maybe it was not a problem back then, did you ever think about that? And who can say that in the future it might be necessarty to marry young. Things change, you know. I sound like a parrot for repeating the same thing over and over.

    I am not the one bringing your personl life into this – you are doing it yourself again and again. And you did it once more in your last comment. I want to ask you how do you know if I was abused as a child or not or what traumatic things happened in my life? Do you know me personally?

    Sorry but the tone of your comment makes me feel that you are knowledgeable about all the things tht Aisha went through and you actually lived in that era since you talk about her being forced to accept ealry marriages and having no say in the matter. Again I remind you that a girl must consent or the marriage is null and void.

    I have authentic ref, thank you and I have read those but have you? Then why not give me quotation from your ref where it sys she was abused. I am only asking this from you.

    And I am really sorry for all that happened to you in your life and I understand that it has scarred you and your children. But its time to move on and not dwell on it. 🙂

  335. Sarah, you do know that consent can be forced so your reasoning that girls must consent to marriage is really a mute point. The little girl who recently obtained a divorce for the old man she was married to did not consent to marry him – she was forced by her family. This goes on all the time. We all know that what is ‘in theory’ law is often misused and abused so it’s not so straight forward. Little girls in India are married (marriage not consummated) at an age where it’s impossible for them to agree or not. Girls will dutifully do what their parents want in most cases of arranged marriage because that is the way they have been brought up. That was true in days gone by and it is true today.

  336. Wendy,
    That maybe true but I am talking about the prophet’s marriage. I don’t think he would go outside of Islam.

    The marriages you are talking about would be not legal in the first place.

  337. I understand what you are saying but legal or not they happen and they happen in very fundamentalist Islamic countries with the approval of Imams so ….. ???

    Anyway nobody will ever know for sure how old Aisha was and that was my point. I don’t think any child, if she was indeed a child, is capable of agreeing to anything like marriage with a clear head and we could be pretty sure that the child would not be told what would be involved in consummating a marriage.

  338. Here is another excellent video on the history of the Islam and its spread.

  339. Why do so many people care how old aisha was or not,
    If you are muslim, you will love islam, if you are not you will not like it. simple. I like my religion, you like yours, you think yours is the best, I think mine is. you think yours is for all time, i think mine is 🙂

    so let it be. if you love islam, accept it – faults and all or else pick from the myrid of other options, it’s not like we lack religions to choose from. and if nothing suits you then great- don’t believe in anything.

    I can’t understand why the debate. it is pointless. if as an adult i have chosen a certain path, nothing anyone does will convince me otherwise. all one is certain of doing is making me feel bad. is that the point ot debate????
    building bridges in my mind means, i mind mu business and you do yours when it comes to religion.

    like i have said a hudered times, me an dF are of 2 diff religions and so far we have not had one single fight regarding religion — oh we fight plenty as to who should do the laundry 🙂 but never which god is better . so if you people who love an dlive together can live happily ,joyfully even with foll 2 diff religions, i don’t udrstand why strangers here cannot???

  340. Sarah, I’m not stressed but thanks for caring.

    Of course I know better than god…if he were caring of human beings as proported and sent mohammed to improve the lives of those around him he would not encourage mohammed to participate in an action that eventually would be seen as abhorrent. Period. You don’t get that so no need to argue anymore with you.

    You have a nice day.

  341. Radha…the day religion minds its own business is the day NO more people are abused, discriminated against, oppressed or killed because of it. Let me know when that happens. I hope I’m still alive to enjoy it.

  342. Just had a post disappear. Hate that!!!
    Radha you are so right! I don’t tell my husband to change his religion and he doesn’t tell me to get one. LOL!!!
    Extremist Muslims would be extremists in something else if they weren’t Muslim. It’s their personality or character. We should be liking people or not liking them for who they are, not what religion they belong to and we should leave them to their beliefs.
    Dialogue about religion can be good but mostly I see rantings and hatred here.

  343. Coolred, glad to know you are not stressed. 🙂

    If you know more than god, then there is no more point to discuss. If you do not believe then you can go your way, and I will go mine. Why argue? Let us be in peace. By the way – no hard feelings.

    And have a wonderful day. 🙂 Wish you the best always.

    Americanbedu,
    Why is only one of my comment is not appearing? I try all different ways but its not coming. Can you please take it out from the spam. I appreciate it.

  344. Radha…the day religion minds its own business is the day NO more people are abused, discriminated against, oppressed or killed because of it. Let me know when that happens. I hope I’m still alive to enjoy it.

    You see Radha, read this comment by Coolred and you be the judge on who is the one looking for problems. No Muslim ever came here telling anyone what to do, it is always the same people who goes around ranting. Ah peace, only in Islam (for me) 🙂

  345. Mrs. B:

    Sure they don’t and I have some beach front property on the ocean coast of Oklahoma that I would like you to buy as well. Prime ocean front property.

    Have you seen what they are doing in the name of a film, a quran burning, a teddy bear naming, witchcraft? Hmm………….seems to me they are creating a hell of a lot of problems based upon the Quran/Hadith/Sira. By the way has your government let out the Atheist for stated he doesn’t believe in God/Allah yet?

    Get real Muslims are telling people what to do in countries all over the planet in droves with death, dismemberment, imprisionment, torture, etc.

    Hey did you know that women in France or England who go down some neighborhoods are being harassed or burned to death for not wear the death bags or entire bodily sex organ covers?

    Now in all fairness there are those Jews who are equally nuts who are creating he same religious oppression and hatred in Israel and New York. Religious creates evil people. Insanity by Religion.

    Seriously this type of crap is a Neurosis (mental illness) to which they need medical treatment or they need to be inprisoned as they are a danger to humanity in delusionalism and schrizophenia.

  346. Yes because my comments on here totally equal the trouble Muslims have given others for centuries. Looks like we have another stellar debater on board.

  347. Again I’m not saying muslims cause trouble or non-muslims do. Yes i’ve been criticized by muslims and non-muslims and my husband is very selective a sto which mosque he will go to, considering the number of free advices he gets . so yes both sides are at fault. but what i meant was we all need to keep religion private. between us and god and that means don’t kill anyone don’t cause harm. and keep your faith strong, why bother when someone calls you names? i’ve been called plenty of vile things ( actually they were trying to impress on my husband how bad marrying a non-muslim was) but i didn’t go around killing and burning people , yes it offended me but i don’t need to defend my faith or my choice. so my solution to this mess is keep your choice between you adn god and don’t cause harm.

    maybe aisha was 6 maybe she was 16 , but i don’t believe in islam so it doesn’t bother me. i have no business judging who believe.

  348. I think the Christians have had a rather long and sad history of telling people how they should believe and actually enforcing it.

  349. All 3 Abrahamic religions have a sad and violent history of telling people what to do.

  350. We cannot always blame religion. Yes it is sad but :

    Who started the First World War, which killed 37 million and injured more than 22 million people including 7 million civilians?

    Who started the Second World War, which killed over 60 million?

    Who killed about 20 million of Aborigines in Australia?

    Who drop the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which killed 166,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki?

    Who killed more than 100 million Red Indians in North America?

    Who killed more than 50 million Indian in South America?

    Who took about 180 million African people as slaves and when 88% of them died, threw them into the Atlantic Ocean?

  351. Okay Sarah:

    Let’s start you off in History 101 baby steps. First item -Slavery:

  352. Here is an interesting site that will give you a little more insight into Hitler, WWII, WW1.

    http://aisforatheist5760.blogspot.com/2011/12/on-question-of-atrocities-and-why-two.html#comment-form

    Now I let you digest this a bit and by all means go to the other post on Oct 1, 2012 at 12:31 as it give a great break down of 1400 years and why the crusades occurred.

  353. What An Insightful (Inciteful?) statement from our POTUS:

    “The Future Must Not Belong To Those Who Slander the Prophet of Islam” – President Barack Hussein Obama, Sept 25, 2012

    http://houseofsunny.tv/2012/09/30/obamas-vision-of-our-future/

  354. bigstick1,
    You are sometimes very childish. It is very easy to throw videos here and there. I can do that too. But why do you turn the subject around. What did the while folks do the the african slaves? And why do you not talk about the genocide of native red indians.

    Since you are a fan of videos, I will throw one here too for your “entertainment”:

    Description:
    This clip is taking from the movie AMISTAD,

    (Warning); It may not be suitable for children unless the parents are there. (Graphic is too intense)

  355. Sarah:

    First I advised you that I would address the issues a little at a time. Now where I have a made the claim that the US or white people did not make mistakes. I can address the native american issue latter.

    Now I have given you a range of information and your film doesn’t take away from what I have already present. Slavery in North America is a given but what isnt’ being address is just how prevalent it was in the muslim/arab world. To say what do the white folks do to slaves well I can tell you based upon the information that I have research, North American treated them better than the muslim world as most of them died or were tortured. Either way it wasn’t good to be a slave. However what form of ideology gives slavery as a right or that it is divinely sanctioned? What has made it more of a right? I believe that would be the Abrahamic Religions.

    Now, the whole of what I have provided is based on historical documents and texts. The videos are a means it which to convey the information to you based upon those texts and documents.

    You however, what to go back and throw barbs at what many know but don’t what to look at what is not well known. As I see it you are the childish one.

    Did you even view what I put up and conceptualize what it stated?

  356. OMG shut up already. Your three are out opf your minds get a job if you do not have one. Slavery has been around for thousands of years, yes Americans did awful things just as every other group of people. Yes there are idiots who like little children that will never change, killing in the name of religion is stupid. You cannot insult a diety they are above that if you believe in such a thing. WWII evil does exist and tha proven by the things that went on in WWIIt So I don’t care if you wish to send me mean e-mail You ,Sarah,, colorred, mrs B who had to tell me she looked good in a bikini who caresw,and whoever wants to argue go to IM and stp making a mess of my e-mail.

  357. Crantode,
    Sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you. And I did not write any emails to you.

    Yes white folks did really horrible things to African slaves that cannot even be mentioned, they gave them no rights whatsoever to masrry, to be educated, to practice their religion …etc. And they wiped of the native indian civilization and contin ue their destruction. Pagan Arabs were no better better I have not heard of such horror as from the while people.

    But yes Crantode, enough already and I will shut up. Thanks. 🙂
    I was only stirring up the emotions up bigstick1.

  358. Crantode:

    I have no idea what you are talking about on the email or IM. Next who are you calling idiot and why?

    Oh, and no I will not shut up.

  359. Sarah:

    You really need to research a lot more on African slaves prior to the United States as African American were sold by the Arabs/Muslims to North America and many other countries as well. In addition, many muslims took Europeans Christians as slaves in droves.

    So spare me on the white people crap.

  360. mrs B who had to tell me she looked good in a bikini

    Still in a rut over that, Cratonade? I was merely responding to your comment 🙂 I did not HAVE to tell you I look awesome in a bikini but if you recall, you did start by saying you look awful in one. But you care a lot it seems by bringing it up again 🙂

    You really need to research a lot more on African slaves prior to the United States as African American were sold by the Arabs/Muslims to North America and many other countries as well. In addition, many muslims took Europeans Christians as slaves in droves.
    So spare me on the white people crap.

    Give links please Bigstick 🙂

    It is all very well to brush your problems that your people and country created and continue to create and let us all focus ONLY on the negative aspects of Muslims despite the many more nice side of us 🙂

  361. But coming on that point Bigstick, I do recall many many of the slaves from Africa were Muslims. So Islam has been in good ol USA for a veeery long time.

    Oh Bigstick, I do know that the Dutch were the ones selling Muslim African slaves to North America, so I am still going to find out about Arabs/Muslims selling their own brothers to be slaves to the North Americans. http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Walter.White/Who.Brought.the.Slaves.to.America.htm

    So I don’t think Sarah or any of us here should obey you and spare you the white people crap, because it is there. But true to your nature, sweeping crap under the carpet is just so you! Let’s not forget the sweeping under the carpet of WW1, WWII and it’s significant relation with atheism under the carpet shall we. Or should we all forget it and just focus on the “fact” that Muslims are all evil and murderous mobs ready to kill, torture, mime, lynch, rape and did I mention-murder?

    Funnily enough Bigstick, I dare say most of the Muslims in USA are African-Americans. Funny that, because if your allegations were true, the African-Americans have truly turned their back on their ancestors and turn to this vicious murderous religion of peace. I know so well that slavery in Islam did exist, but we have had a lengthy discussion about that ending with the fact that Islam promoted the ending of slavery and not START the actual trade. Yes, I am sure you are incline to believe that Islam is at the root of this slavery business but you are aware that slavery existed WAAAY before Prophet Muhammad received his revelation from God? What I recall from reading in the Quran is that it never mention anything about encouraging the captures nor keeping of slavery but it talked in abundance about the good treatments of slaves, the rights of slaves, the freeing of slaves, or am I wrong and you Bigstick have the know-it-all when it comes to Islam?

  362. Mrs. B:

    Many people follow things that have enslaved them or belittle them. Look at you, you follow a religion that calls you a walking vagina and yet you find it a holy text that gives you something which it does not. This is called indoctrination and the failure to be taught critical thinking skills which can logically go say what a load of crap.

    In addtion, many people do not know the extent of the muslim/arab slavery but they are learning about it more and more. I have already provided you a solid amount of information that WWII was a holy war of sorts. Christian(Htiler)/Muslims(Grand Mutfi in Palestine) against the Jews. You neeed to research a little more on WWI to find the setting and you will find religion also had a big role.

    The fact is Mrs. B the text provides ample evidence that it endorses slavery and you know it. It is the same for all the Abrahamic madeup hate religions.

    Saudi didn’t even outlaw it until 1960’s at least officially. So maybe when people start really looking more in the history of things they will claim. That they haven’t seen more evil than what the Arabs initially have created in all of the pushing of Abrahamic Religions by conquests. Let’s not forget where the evil always begins which is telling on the people who live their and their values of immorality and hatred and violence. So even today they practice this backwards hate ideology to which has spread even the hate monger Jesus was probably an Arab. Seems to me it is the Arabs and their hate ideology that has created slavery, sex slaves, prostitutions, etc. and even today you see the dysfunction of the people who follow this perverted evil ideology of fantasy.

    So maybe we should look to the unholy capitals where all the Abrahamic religion comes from and actually see what indigious population conquered who and for what purposes. That would be the Arab world and it was all spread by force generating first out of the same places that have always pushed their evil hate ideology.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

    When you get to the bottom of the document you will find some sources.

  363. Mrs Bawazir, I mentioned you bathing attire as a light hearted thing to say because you and others were getting nasty with each other and because your arguments to prove you points were going nowhere. When you argue as you have been doing you can find many sources to back your point of view on both sides. Not one time did I say nasty things about what you believe in my suggestion was that if you want to have a real time discussion you might want to go on to Instant Messenger so you can have a conversation. Might I suggest that you read “Islam and the West” by Bernard Lewis. It is a wonderful book by a Middle East Scholar, and I thin you woul enjoy it. I will say for my part as I mentioned earlier, it is getting old to blame everything on the “white” population of the world. History has to be looked at through the eyes of those who lived it not in modern day eyes.

  364. Didn’t the native indians have a right to stay on their lands? So who cleansed them of their rights? So much for freedom.

  365. Of course they had that right and things were done that were worng, but if that was true today your points would hold much more validity. Native American also had differnations which they went to war with and took each others property. Was not right for them not right for those who were white. The people of that time didn’t see those people as seperate nations and many did not think there were differences in the way they lived. Some even used our courts but where dinied rights by Anderew Jackson “Trail of Tears.” Theres was a similar forced march in AZ. Stupid yes and is some instances evil, but I think some of the tribes are getting even they are taking the white man’s money throught casinos. just a little light hearted humor. I think that is pretty cool. Again if it was the same today then you would have a point but it is not. It would seem that in the United States the tribes that are still of the underclass are the ones that the government is giving the most help to. That is a stat from the Native American counsels themselves. Too much help is not good because then the government has theright to tell you what to do. Not a good thing

  366. Bigstick – African slaves were Muslim before they became slaves. Islam was quite well established in Africa.

    It’s interesting that Crantode wants to forget about what happened in the past in the US but she and others want to keep reminding Muslims of all the bad or supposed bad things that happened waaaaay before the US was even thought about except by those indigenous people who were almost made extinct both in the US and Canada.

  367. I never just said the United States I have never even said one thing about Muslims or Islam. I give up you guys win. Enjoy.

  368. Wendy here is some reading for you:

    Part 1:
    http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm

  369. Wendy:

    Part 2:

    http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery02.htm

    Please pay attention to the very end of the article.

  370. Sarah,

    You are sick for defending a Paedophile.. Surely its obvious that what ever age it happened its wrong. I know lots of women that have been abused by older men, they do not talk about the abuse. They pretend its normal. They sometimes even think they love their abuser. Thats a classic symptom of abuse. Try Googling “love my abuser”. Women that have been raped are not always keen to talk about it and cetainly don’t want to press charges.

  371. Katie, before you go all out calling someone sick, I advise you to read Sarah’s comments properly! She wasn’t defending a paedophile, she was giving out informations on the norm of the people of that time, over 1400 years ago. Not more than 50 years ago, my grandmother aged 14 married my grandfather aged 20++. And it was normal back then, no one called my late grandfather a paedophile (he was a soldier). My own mother in law married young and her daughter (my sister in law) married at age 17 and that was just 20 years ago. So please, mind your choice of words. Just an advise.

  372. Sarah:

    The biggest killer of the native american populations was disease.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

  373. Katie:

    Don’t worry your are entitled to that opinion.

  374. Bigstick1
    I just love the way you dig up google just to find info that suits your thinking and then just post the links. Your comments tell me that you think that the whites have no faults at all and all the wrongs happened because of Muslims/Arabs. How petty! But then you are entitled to your opinions. Pity though 🙂

    And I suppose aborogines in Austrailia were wiped out by Muslims as well.

    Crantode,
    If Indians were not given their rights back then, then give it to them now! Give back their rightful lands and make up for all the tortures they have undergone. Same for the Afircan slaves.

    Mrs. B.
    Thanks! 🙂

    Katie, Hi,
    Yes as Mrs. B said I was not defending any pedophile. Do I have to go through this all over again?

    There are still many marry young in Asian countries. In India you will find babies as soon as they are born are engaged and they get married when they come of age. Your argument is very weak so I cannot go on without repeating myself. Just read all those previous comments and even google the age of consent in some US stats. Thanks for your comment.

    And oh, forgot. If you think that he was a pedophile, bring me some evidences which says directly what your are implying. Coolred failed to do that from her references.

  375. Ok Sarah I will bite what right do the Native Americans not have in the United States. Most of the Native American feel they are Americans without the hyphen who now want to teach their culture to thier children. If you live on a reservation which in recent years many have the rights of on independent nation but do not have to pay tases to the state in which they are located. Some Indian Nations have done well some have not. if you parents did something wrong should you have to pay for it or try to make amends. Woudl it be correct for you to be forced to ive up your home to make up for the past or would it not make better sense to make assistance available to those who need it. Do you personally know any native Americans? Keep in mind they do not all belong to the same nations of American Indians but they are all citizens of the Untied States. If you want to go to college in the United States you have more help than the average citizen, same with starting a business etc. Look deeper into what has been made available for these groups. Before you say that I do not know what i am talking about which you might I have relatives who are 100 percent Native American from AZ and also from NYS. There are now programs put into place for those who wish to take advange of them. One went to schol to be a hairdresser and is very successful, the other is a teacher.

    If one was forced to return land to people how would you do that.? Figure how much the land itself is worth and then charge what the improvements would cost them? Not as easy as saying give back lands. African Slaves were given a choice after the Civil War by members of the Freedman’s bureau to go back to Africa that is where Liberia came from. Corrections have been made for those who have stayed especially since the 1960’s. Just some thoughts.

  376. Coolred did not fail in a damn thing…not my fault if you choose to cry foul every time some writer of Islamic history writes something you don’t like or agree with. Once again, these men were not writing to discredit mohammed but to put down the details of his life. They believed he was a prophet…for what purpose would they have in commenting that Aisha was very young…unless she was very young?

    No, Coolred did not fail to deliver…some on here failed to comprehend. You can lead a muslim to questions but you cant make her think.

  377. Bigstick your articles are not news to me and I am more well-versed on First Nations history in North America than you ever will be. I’m certainly not about to go there now.

  378. My comment disappeared…hmmm.

  379. Mrs. B:

    I am just about half Native America. I also have a mixed of Irish, Scottish, Mexican (which has some native heritage), germany, portugese ( all of them are smaller portions.) I am a mutt. I have a neice who is quite beautiful and will be exceptional brilliant who is half African American. Some of my best friends are Native, African American, Italian, Mexican,Greek, or just mutts like myself. In addition, no one is stating that white(often times mutts) people don’t do anything wrong or that they haven’t caused problems. However, I can tell you that all races have done that and one doesn’t out do another normally based upon an ethnicity but they do based upon an ideology.

    However the fact is the ideologies that have engaged in ideology that supports slavery (hard labor or sexual), child abuse, spousal abuse, racisim (chosen people), homophobia, femocide, gender apartheid, murder, torture, deception, etc, has a history which stems out of certain middle eastern/african areas which more often than not has influenced people to be the worst of humanity. Those who are better typically have to dump the majority of the texts or do selective religion. In addition, religions has been an impediment to technology and science more often than not. It is an evil force of nonsense.

  380. Wendy:

    Good for you.

  381. Bigstick, why are you addressing me about your Native American lineage? I didn’t mention anything about that nor the rest of your comments.

    Now about the last part of your comment, typical “whites” like you would scrutinize every “bad” aspects of other nations that you deem as inferior to your kind and simply banish all the atrocities your ancestors have done and racists from your part of the world still continue to bully and ridicule Muslims and other brown people. Spare me the “ideologies that have engaged in ideology that supports slavery (hard labor or sexual), child abuse, spousal abuse, racisim (chosen people), homophobia, femocide, gender apartheid, murder, torture, deception, etc, has a history which stems out of certain middle eastern/african areas which more often than not has influenced people to be the worst of humanity” lecture because the history of the “whites” have never been all too rosy! Shall we say colonialism?South Africa anyone? Code Noir? First European Colonization Wave? Second European Colonization Wave? My country Malaysia? The list is tooo long so please, spare me the lecture! And might I add that the genocidal mentality is still prevalent all over Europe towards the “other people”.

  382. Mrs. B:

    Sorry should have been you, Sarah and Wendy.

    Next many African Americans are actually unaware of their forced conversion/slavery beginnings, however, more are learning. Maybe you re-look at who colonized first before going off on the colonizations wave. Now I have given specifics on the issues repeatedly on WW1, WW2, The first Jihad 660 or so to 1900s’ and then you can see the fight back. I have also stated that no ethnicity is beyond atrocities, however, you do like pointing the finger at whites a lot without exploring your own history of brutuality and conquests.

    Oh please clarify about the genocidal mentality from Europe toward the other people.

    Sarah: Many US citizens are mixed with other races. In addition, a large number of Natives married into other races. Just how do you purpose to give back the US and who will be considered the natives and the one’s kicked out. Given that the US is the 5th most populuace country, I am just wondering were they are going to go and are those governments willing to take them in. What you don’t understand is that many people identify themselves as just American and not African, Mexican, Native American as that tends to divide them. In fact more and more Americans are just calling themselves multi-national or the good old American Mutt and they are quite happy being just that.

  383. Crantode,
    Yes it is too late NOW to do anything for the Native Americans and you cannot “give” back the land. Why take it from them in the firs place. Same goes for the natives of Australia.

    Bigstick1,
    Yes I understand that people living in US identify themselves as Americans. Yes they do now but not when the natives were living there peacefully. They did not call themselves Americans. They belonged to tribes or groups and did not have English as their native language. Their names were not Joe, or Harry but Big Eagle or Bull’s Eye or something. They were not Americanised then, were they? The whites came later and took over. So the natives did not have much choice but to merge with the rest of the whites. Yes NOW you can say that they are part of the society.

  384. Bigstick, just so you know … I have my Department of Indian Affairs status card if you know what that means.

  385. Wendy:

    Goody for you. I guess your status card trumps mine.

    Next I will not blame an entire race for ever ill in the world as ideology and circumstances is what fuels much of what goes on. Ask yourself what initially drove Columbus to the Americas? Who was responsible for cutting of trade areas? Hmmmm………….what were they doing to them to create this issue.

    Oh, on a similar but side note here is another one of those stupid ideologies which stems from the Abrahamic hate religions which is true to it’s racist tactics.

  386. Just to clarify one thing …
    In Canada smallpox was deliberately spread to get rid of the “Indian problem”. It happened on the Queen Charlotte Islands where almost 80% of the population was wiped out.
    This fact was documented by Indian Agents during that time and has been acknowledged as truth by our government. That is only one atrocity the Brits committed upon our First Nations here in Canada. Fortunately not all documents were destroyed. Canadian First Nations are still fighting for rights to their lands in BC. They are still not treated very well by many Canadians … equivalent to the American blacks I suppose.

  387. Wendy I have no doubt that some of this did occur but not to the extent that many would like to believe. A great deal more just occurred due to exposure to disease in a nature way.

    However, what you still fail to understand is that it is about ideologies that support racism, superiority, etc. In other words, pointing at one race of individuals doesn’t make the issues go away because it isn’t necessarily about the race but what is taught (ideology) and that is where you must confront it. No human is any better or worse than another they are equally the same. They may have different strengths, different weaknesses and different insight but they are not less than another and every human is capable of learning and contributing in positive ways unfortunately they have the same ability to do it in negative ways.

    Do you think it is helpful to go on about whites against blacks against natives today? Really? Many people want to embrace their culture but let’s face it most of us have more than one culture but at the same time each culture has aspects that should be rejected and not tolerated due to inhumanity, discrimination, perpetual hate, or continued divisionism. In addition, each culture has its history of some type of atrocity some more others as it is based on logistics.

  388. Muslim/arab death toll since WWII.

  389. Coolred did not fail to provide references…people on here just refused to read them. You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think. I tried my best. I don’t consider it a fail…Im sure the people I was really addressing got the point. Mission accomplished.

    Sorry, you were in spam.
    Moderator

  390. Bigstick … I’ve not been accusing anybody of anything. You brought something up about First Nations and I wanted to clarify it. I’m the one on here that has been suggesting that everyone on here INCLUDING you have said far and away enough about Mohamed, Islam, etc. It is old and rather nauseating and hate is never a good or appropriate thing. Bringing up stuff that happened centuries ago proves nothing and brings the hate monger down to the level of an idiot. I don’t think most people on this forum are idiots but clearly they need to understand that they sometimes act the part all too well.

  391. Wendy:

    No I clarified that at great deal of the indian population was devastated by disease. I never stated that some of that was not purposely planted however many historians tend to agree that this was not a something employed as it also created devastation against the Europeans. Next, the whole point was brought up because of Sarah and her going on stating whites killed 50 million and she hasn’t seen a more vile race than the whites. So hell way not show her the atrocities that other races have committed including Arabs while at the same time showing her that her assessment is not entirely correct. However this is all in the past but guess what, that is not the case with Islam, Muhammad or Muslims as they are currently today creating havoc based upon teachings and text material from a backward hate ideology. It might be old and nauseating but it continues to impunity back then as it is today and it needs to be addressed for what it is.

    Next any text that states that slavery, divisionism, gender apartheid, murder, deception, racism, homophobia, torture, child abuse, rape is acceptable in any form or even eluded to then it needs to be called out as the evil it is. Any text or religion that creates hatred such as the abrahamic religions and canonizes slavery or any other inequality is evil. If even one life is harm then due to the hatred that it spews from the vile texts and the idoicy of brainwashed twits then they are just as evil and they support either directly or indirectly hate ideology which creates human atrocity.

  392. Wendy:

    Here is another source on slavery:

    http://slavestoday.tripod.com/id5.html

  393. Hey, Moderator, what about my comment in the spam. Why did you not pull that one out. Are you choosing which one to take out?

    Coolred, you did not provide any evidence. You just askerd me to go read a book which you yourself have not read. It does not make sense to me.

  394. You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think.

    Coolred, you forgot to finish that sentence of yours. I presume you wanted to say You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think as how Coolred wants you to think. ah now that’s complete. But no thanks, this Muslim would hate to be in the way you think, full of hatred, revengeful and vehemence.

    Now Bigstick you said ” I have also stated that no ethnicity is beyond atrocities, however, you do like pointing the finger at whites a lot without exploring your own history of brutuality and conquests.” Are you friggin kidding me? You play that card now, Oo no ethnicity is beyond atrocities bla bla, YOU the one who started with the ever-lasting rant about the evils of the Middle Eastern and the Africans!!! how about you review your own history bathing in blood before pointing your friggin stick to the “others”!! It is all too well and easy for you to sweep the atrocities of your people and blame it on diseases and bacteria and what not right? That is why i said it before and I’ll say it again, you are a hypocrite! When it comes to your own bloody history, you nonchalantly brush it away as “oh every ethnicity has atrocities” but when it comes to other people’s so called evils, you placed it under a microscope. You are a joke, Bigstick. I was somewhat impressed with your limited knowledge before but now I just see someone who likes to cherry pick his own version of human history to suit his own superior mindset! Yes, I am sure the world agrees with you that the whites have never committed any harm to the human race. Dream on!

  395. yup is cherry picking Sarah

  396. Sarah…why are you assuming I haven’t read it? And yes…go read it. You have mentioned numerous times how much you have read regarding Islam and Mohammed so it’s not like I’m asking you to do something beyond your capabilities. It’s the only thing I have asked…nothing more.

    And (generally speaking) if what happened centuries ago wasn’t still relevant today why do we bother learning about history at all…and not everyone who says something about Islam or Mohammed that isn’t the nice sanitized accepted version is a hate monger…unless what you say isn’t true. I haven’t said a single hateful thing…your historical books said it.

  397. Oh Coolred, I really admire your fighting spirit. You make me smile. 🙂

    Where have I mentioned “numerous times how much you have read regarding Islam and Mohammed”? Please do not make up stuff. As far as I remember, I have asked one thing from you and that is to give me evidence from the books that you have read or asking me to read what you are accusing of the prophet. Seeing that you can write alot, I am not asking much. So if you have no evidence, what you are saying holds no water.

  398. A mistake and you decide to publish it huh Moderator but the real comments I’ve made got eaten up by spam I suppose!

    Coolred said “You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think.” But she forgot to finish her sentence. What she was trying to say was “you can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think the way Coolred wants her too.” Well this Muslim sure is glad she isn’t thinking the way Coolred wants, so full of vehement and vengeance.

  399. You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think.

    Coolred forgot to finish her sentence here. She was suppose to say, “You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think the way Coolred wants her to.” Well, this Muslim sure is glad she isn’t thinking the way Coolred does, so full of vehemence and vengeance.

  400. Why aren’t my comments appearing?

  401. Coolred said :You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think. But Coolred forgot to finish her sentence properly. She was trying to say “You can lead a Muslim to reading but you can’t make her think the way Coolred want her to.” Now aren’t we Muslims glad not to think the way she does, so full of vengeance and vehemence?

  402. http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm Please look at this . These are the deaths. of more that just Muslims since WWII, and in the Balkans the Christians especially the United States came to help the Muslim. I think that in current times it has been the Radical Muslims that have killed more people of the Muslim faith than anyone else. Myself I do not care what your prophet did or didn’t do in his lifetime. My concern is today.

  403. Dear Sarah, the thing that workds so well in the United States is that most everyone consideres themselves Americans who came from someplace else. The United States made and error when they tried to force the children of the Indian nations to become like the as you would say the white man. it was wrong andt heir idienity was almost lost. In the United States I have found that until you have the opportunity to interact with other cultures you do no know how other are being treated. During WWII the Navajo Code Talkers showed how important it was to keep a knowledge of your own culture even as Americans. There has to be the opportunity for success and that is what makes the country work. Will there always be differences I would say of course. Even in a family not everyone see eye to eye. In the United Staes when WWII came about people finally saw what was going on between the races and it may have taken until the 1960’s to have changes started but it was done and is still being done for everyone. Will there ever be perfect harmony no, but that is everywhere in the world even in Muslim countries.

  404. Crantode:

    The video was explicit that it was just muslim on muslim deaths which excluded other deaths or help by others. So yes, there are others who are killing. I could bring up other deaths in masses and almost all of it has a common theme and it is religion.

  405. Crantode,
    Thanks for the information that you have provided. I really appreciate it. I agree that people, races …etc will always differ.

  406. Wendy,
    Thanks for your comments on the native people of Canada. I find it very interesting. I believe there are certain places still under native names – some difficult to pronounce even.

  407. Ok since my reply to Anon is still missing, and modertors are still busy cherry picking, I am going to try again.

  408. Anon,
    Anway, in answer to your question:
    “whether or not it would be OK for me to practice my religion in your country?”

  409. I am assuming that by “your country” you mean a Muslim country, namely Saudi. Anon, all countries have their own laws. There are some Muslim countries that make laws close to Islamic laws and others not so much. So basically, what you have to do is ask the gov of the country where you want to practice Buddhism or preach it, whether it is allowed or not and their reasons for it. Not all countries have the same laws. In USA, if Muslims are allowed to practice and preach, then that is their law.

  410. I am assuming that by “your country” you mean a Muslim country, namely Saudi. Anon, all countries have their own laws.

  411. Anon, all countries have their own laws. There are some Muslim countries that make laws close to Islamic laws and others not so much. So basically, what you have to do is ask the gov of the country where you want to practice Buddhism or preach it, whether it is allowed or not and their reasons for it. Not all countries have the same laws. In USA, if Muslims are allowed to practice and preach, then that is their law.

  412. “Does my religion enjoy similar legal protection in countries where Islam is the predominate religion?”

    The reply is same as above.

    Sometimes countries will make laws that may not always be in line with Shariah. However Islam (as opposed to country) does give freedom of religion. For example, look at Egypt, there are many Christians and churches. Every religion has certain sacred location and Saudi is sacred for Muslims just as Vatican is for Christians (where there are no mosques or synagogues by the way).

    And there are also certain other restrictions that Islam holds such as that Muslims cannot burn holy places or books of any faith. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries are entitled to equal rights as Muslims and share the same responsibilities. Remember that what Muslis do may not always be what Islam says, unfortunately.

    Speaking of tolerance, I heard that in Demark it is not allowed to build mosques or not allowed until recently. Maybe someone can confrim or otherwise.

  413. There I did it! Finally! I replied to Anon and I was trying for days to make it appear and finally it is here although in pieces and I had to remove one sentence (which maybe the reason the spam filter was eating the comment).

    Anyhow, I can rest easy now. 🙂

  414. The point I was trying to make is that religion is an excuse for those who want power. Religion when follow to give comfort and hope can be a good thing. When it is used for the purpose to divide and dominate then it is an evil. i feel that if you believe in a religion and use it for good more power to you. I think the problem comes about when people are afraid to question aspects of any religion. it has been my bllief that many of the holy books were written as stories to make it easy for people to understand a lesson that the leaders were trying to get accross. On simple example is the idea that you cannot eat pork. if before people understood where illness was coming from and they found that pork was the common denominator well people would not listen,but make it a taboo of a religion, less people get sick and die. Just my thoughts.

  415. Crantode, religion has always been about power and control. Period. Enough said. That’s why I do not believe in any organized religion. That’s why it’s just silly to keep flogging a dead horse because people will not give up their beliefs by others on this forum hammering at them. They are controlled and will continue to do so until they themselves decide they’ve had enough … or not. If you were like most of us when we were young and in our teens if our parents or someone told us something was bad then more than likely we’d dig our heels in and rebel against them. That’s why it’s so useless to try and convince people their beliefs are wrong. It only makes their beliefs stronger in defense.

  416. Sarah:

    There are numerous place that have indian names, so here are some places within the US and broken down state by state.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_place_names_in_the_United_States_of_Native_American_origin

  417. bigstick1
    Thanks for the names of places with indian origin. Interesting.

  418. Sarah and mrs Bawazir were in spam. They have been taken out again.
    There’s absolutely no reason for approved commentators to be in spam, we don’t know why this is happening lately.

    Please let Carol know if your comment does not appear. This site gets hundreds of spam messages in the filter and it is a lot of dreary work searching through them. We don’t always have the time to do that every day.

    Moderator

  419. Thanks Moderator, a bit too late, though. I did mention in this forum that the comment is not appearing a couple of times.

  420. I find it very interesting that link to Native American names. For California, they listed Malibu and Simi Valley both from the Ventureno language- the language of the Chumash indians. But didn’t mention the city of Ventura or Ventura County- which is (or was) Chumash territory- and clearly comes from the name of the language.

    Also interesting the most likely source for “California”- is a variant of “Caliphate” via Spanish.

  421. Sarah:

    A very short reply to you. I don’t have the time right now to continue to follow this discussion and doubt I will for some time. So this will most likely be my last word on this topic.

    You stated much earlier in this discussion:

    “And covered women are teased there. I know covered girls in USA and they have to put up with pressures at work places or schools. They get nervous when going for job interviews …etc. Some have to do away with hijab and dress as “others” just to fit in or survival. This is reality. I am not getting this from media.”

    The point I was trying to make in this discussion is that people who reside in the US have protections by law to practice their religion. This includes wearing hijab. What you say may be true that some have felt peer pressure not to do so, but it is within their legal right. And women in hijab are not a rare sight in many locations in the US these days.

    So I really don’t think that those who are citizens of countries outside of the US should complain about things such as peer pressure in the US when laws and actual enforcement of these laws in many countries influenced by Islam and Islamic law do not have the same protection for freedom of religion as the US does.

    I believe that people should worry about their own country before making criticisms of others, so I am not expressing a value judgement about freedom of religion or lack thereof in countries influenced by Islam and Islamic law. However, I do feel the need to point out that your statements do not appear to be entirely true. For example, you state that “Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries are entitled to equal rights as Muslims and share the same responsibilities.” However, in at least one country, Saudi Arabia, that is not true. According to the US State Department web site, “The calculation of accidental death or injury compensation is discriminatory. In the event a court renders a judgment in favor of a plaintiff who is a Jewish or Christian male, the plaintiff is only entitled to receive 50 percent of the compensation a Muslim male would receive; all other non-Muslims are only entitled to receive one-sixteenth of the amount a male Muslim would receive. Furthermore, judges may discount the testimony of non-practicing Muslims or individuals who do not adhere to the official interpretation of Islam and disregard the testimony of a non-Muslim in favor of the testimony of a Muslim. Moreover, courts adhere to the Qur’anic stipulation that in cases of capital punishment the value of a woman’s testimony is only one-half that of a man’s.” – not anywhere close to equal rights.

    That’s all I have time to say for now, and probably for the foreseeable future.

  422. Well, I am now in spam 🙂 I didn’t write much original material, but I did include some long quotes; perhaps that is why.

    If the moderator takes the comment out; that is fine, but, as I stated in the comment that is in spam, I don’t think I will continue to participate in this discussion; don’t have the time to do so.

  423. If anybody thinks they are in spam, or they have a problem with commenting, or they noticed a shadow account, or a comment was a gross violation against the blog rules: contact the blogowner!!!
    ”Contact” means sending Carol a mail.

    We moderators try to help Carol out from time to time, but have day-jobs and cannot spend all day every day reading all comments all the time.

    Moderator

  424. Mrs. B:

    If you go back you will see that I responded to Sarah who started the whole it was a race issue. Next, I have never stated that whites were not involved, however, if individuals are going down that road then so be it. I will point out that they were not the only ones provide an plethra of information to back it, to which I have. Next, that statement is exactly how I believe that every race is the same but ideology does create issues of discrimination, murder, etc.

    I think I have very clear on my stance from the get go but if Arabs/Africans want to somehow divorce themselves from their involvement or past/present issues will while going on about the white man will then you have another thing coming. As it is just about whites atrocities it is about all of them and often times it stems from hate (Abrahamic) religion. By the way religion is something you can choice to accept or not to accept. In other words you can change your belief system. YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR RACE. There in lies the difference.

  425. Maybe just maybe the Spam section wants to end the same thing being said over and over again. If you wish to argue this any longer why not go onto Instant messenger. I sugggested that before ande people got upset. If you do that you can just speak to each other and not have to worry about spam.

  426. “Also interesting the most likely source for “California”- is a variant of “Caliphate” via Spanish”.

    Equally interesting is the absurd claim that that Muslim explorers preceded Columbus to North America, and eventually became Algonquin chiefs named Abdul—Rahim and Abdallah Ibn Malik.

    And that Shakespeare was a Muslim named Shaykh Zubayr. And Neil Armstrong converted to Islam when he stepped onto the moon and heard the beautiful adhan.

  427. Sandy:

    Yes it is interesting. Don’t know if you have ever researched the Sanskrit or Swasticka and it’s importances throughout cultures particularly in the Indian Culture.

    http://mendonca-marvin.hubpages.com/hub/swastika

    I send another link that you might fine interesting on it as well.

    Crantode:

    Where is the fun in that. 🙂

  428. Sandy:

    http://www.cabq.gov/culturalservices/kimo/about-the-theatre

    You might this interesting.

  429. Sandy:

    Now once you read all of the variations of this symbol and that it also has routes in the asia/persia/india and yet it is regarded as a sacred symbol for many natives. The symbolism and information it conveys is intriguing to put it mildly.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

  430. @Bigstick, I’m sorry I really don’t see why you think Swastika origins are interesting to me. I know it was co-opted.

    @Abe I don’t see how “absurd” claims about ancient Muslim explorers are “equally interesting” to my comment on the origins of the word “California”.

  431. bigstick1
    ” ideology does create issues of discrimination, murder, etc”

    Which kind of ideology wiped out the Natives of America and Australia?

  432. Anon,
    I understand that you are a very busy person so I will keep this short.

    People are protected by law but the law cannot control human feelings and emotions. Whatever the law says, a person can still feel hatred towards another race, religion, ideology or even an individual. No law can put a stop to that.

  433. Yes I agree it is within their legal rights to wear hijab but what a person feels wearing it – maybe fearing reactions from others, or what others might think of them is something that the law cannot do anything about. Ok?

  434. So a woman may feel awkward wearing it, be conscious of herself, may think others are whispering about her in the back, etc. What is stop these feelings or how can we stop people from feeling anything at all.

  435. You may think that I am outside of US and I should not complain about peer pressure but I have my family living in US through 3-4 generations so I say from their observations and their experiences.

    Sorry if you think that I should not complain about US living outside of it, then people here sure as hell should not complain about Saudi or any other country they are living outside of.

    Yes I,too, do believe that people should worry about their own country before talking about other’s. Hear that everyone?!

    If what I say is not true in one country, it does not make it a false statement. As I said all countries have their own laws like it or not. And about the testimony being half, I talked about that in length in this blog somewhere and I don’t want to write it here again. Suffice to say that testimony depends on the case. There are some cases where only a woman’s testimony is valid.

    Did I say that I will keep this short? 🙂

  436. Sandy the Chinese also claim to have come to the so called “new world ” too before anyone else and think about it they would have been a lot closer to North and South America than the Muslims. So i would like to know what the difference is anyway. Unless some other groups would like to take the blame to the so called distruction of the Native people.

  437. @ crantode
    All I said was the city of Ventura came from the Chumash word Ventereno and the word California comes from Arabic Calipha filtered through Spanish.
    I’m a Californian. It’s not a big secret. About a third of Spanish words come from Arabic. And a lot of places are named with Spanish or Native words in that part of the US.

  438. Re: Origin of the name “California”

    Several other origins have been suggested for the word “California”, including Spanish, Latin, South Asian, and Aboriginal American origins. All of these are disputed. Another likely possibility is the reference to a mythical land described in a popular novel of the time: Las Sergas de Esplandián. Again, all of these claims are disputed.

    Another mega claim, being touted by many muslims and/or their apologists, with inferiority complexes and low self-esteems, regarding origin of the name “California”: That it was named after Calif (Ha) ronia i.e. Caliph Haroon Rashid.

    What a bunch of absurdities!

    http://rupeenews.com/usa/california-was-named-after-calif-haronia-caliph-haroon-rashid-al-hambra-was-also-from-muslim-spainmore-than-500-american-town-have-muslim-origins/

  439. Sandy:

    I thought you would find it interesting that the American Continent had been visited so long ago that both Eastern/Western Hemisphere shared common symbols. That is all.

    Sarah:

    Christianity/Puritan type ideologies along with Political motivations. I post the Mormon one on what they believe………..did you even view it.

  440. Ok. Second time I try to write. Sorry it’s brief.
    Yes Abe everything you said is absurd except the origins of the word California. There really isn’t a lot of dispute- and most theories still come down to the Spanish word Califa- and it’s Arabic origin Caliph. The Spanish novel with the Amazon-like Queen ruling over her California Island is the most likely specific theory- the first (there were 3) California was the Baja Peninsula which they thought was an island. Yes it is remotely possible that the Spanish namers decided to go with a name from indiginous roots that sounded just like the name in the novel- but not very likely.

    Bigstick- I’m sorry I was snippy. I’m fighting on another sight and I got a bit mixed up with whom I’m speaking. Thank you for the links.

    I hope this posts this time.

  441. Sandy:

    No problem. 😀

  442. How does it feel to celebrate Thanksgiving Day? or Colombus day?

    Do you really think ideology has anything to do with killing of the indigenous people of America? Why did they not learn to love and share and live peacefully. Is killing and taking over their rights American ideology?

    Very interesting fb page:

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aboriginal-and-Tribal-Nation-News/327603401367

  443. Have you ever read or studied the Native Americans themselves. They did not live in peace and harmony. They waged war against each other, took slaves, etc. Read a little more deeply into history before you make such broad statements. Oh by the way I love celebrating those holidays, why because I have much to be thankful for.

  444. Sarah:

    I think this gives the tenor of the time even if I find a few points off; however, I think overall it fits. The author plays down the tribal feuding aspects and only provides a cursory brush on the slavery aspects but it provides you with an ability to understand the era and their environment.

    http://nerdsftw.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/history-ftw-european-expansion-and-native-americans/

    Next, I don’t have a problem with the days as my family gets together or I get off from work. Understand one thing as well, if the events of the past had not occurred it is most probable that I would not be here today.

  445. bigstick1
    ” if the events of the past had not occurred it is most probable that I would not be here today”

    And that’s a problem because ….? Just kidding ! 🙂
    Your input here is good for educational purposes.

    What I am saying is that the “whites” just sailed across the ocean blue and took over the lands belonging to someone else. Yes the natives were not all that friendly but who would be in that situation. Can you see the same situation happening now? All I am saying is that we are talking about rights – when America began by taking away the rights of some other group of people. It does not matter now yes I see that.

    You should see “The Standing Bear”. Its an interesting piece of documentary.

  446. Sarah:

    I guess what I am stating is that they were running from wars themselves and being overrun and it is what they knew. It is not just whites that have done this but every race and to just attach it to one is well…………wrong. It happens to the whites, blacks, Asians, Arabs, natives, etc. It has happened repeatedly and to blame one race for all atrocities which clearly isn’t the one race but the combination of all race vying for their own is well………………..one sighted as well as short sighted. The fact is the pilgrims were running and they did what was best for them even if it might not have be best for someone else but that is what was happening to them and what they knew and it was survival. It was from their past that they started looking at and why things eventually changed. The framers of the Constitution knew that it would take time to change people beliefs. It was from this that they crafted the US Constitution which as far as I am concerned has paved the road to a far better society than many others. I should state that our country USA is not a Democracy but a Constitutional Republic and that is a great thing if we can hold on to it. This is something that many state the USA is which it is not …………….it is a Republic. Democracy I am afraid doesn’t have staying power and the crafters of the Constitution understood that as majority rule is not a means to protect the minority but the Republic was a means to the rights of the people even the minority.

    Now here is the thing I can’t fault them for survival. I can’t change what happened nor can anyone else and going back is not an option. I for one am quite happy to be an American and proud of being one. I share an ancestry of both native and abroad. That is not to say that others share my belief but I can have customs which benefit my family from many different societies which uphold humanity and humanitarian beliefs and I discard the rest to include religious teachings/organizations which I find to encourage discrimination, racism, sexism, homophobia or stands for the fairytale chosen (hogwash).

    Here is an example I like Christmas but I celebrate it as a time of giving and family not the birth of Christ. I like fasting (juice) but I do it for my health. I like yoga and meditation as there is scientific evidence that it assists the body in many ways. I like Halloween as it is just dog gone fun to dress up in scary attire and deck the house with Ghouls/Ghosts and large spiders that jump out to scare children. I like Thanksgiving not for the celebration of the founding of this country but again for my family and getting everyone together to remember prior family events and to create new ones. I like Martin Luther King day for various reason but I also like it because it is a day off from work so that I can spend more time with my family.

    Remember the whites didn’t just sail across the ocean blue to get to American just because……..it was due to war and them being overrun by another race of people and religious persecution from all angles.

  447. Wendy, thanks for that article. Lots of good points made. I noticed the author quoted that statement from Obama that I see made by a lot of conservative friend: “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam,”

    I thought maybe providing some context would be better so I found a bit of that same speech. Here is a two-minute clip. What do you think about those statements?

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/09/25/obama_the_future_must_not_belong_to_those_who_slander_the_prophet_of_islam.html

  448. Wendy, your article had links on the side and this one took my attention. Not sure how true it is, but now I’m wondering about the ACLU. Anyone know if this is true?

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/092612-627214-aclu-hijacked-by-islamists-practicing-lawfare.htm?ven=OutBrainCP

  449. I found the ‘Great Separation’ article very interesting and thought provoking. Those who are history buffs should really appreciate it and I think we could all hope that the ‘Great Separation’ might yet happen.

    Obama’s speech was wonderful. As usual one line is taken out of context and used by the right wingers
    .
    I did not have time to read the side articles yesterday. The one about the ACLU is interesting to say the least. Food for thought.

  450. On another story … Al Jazeera replayed a story they did on young Malala and her family a year ago. It’s unbelievable that the Taliban would be so intimidated by a wee girl but then bullies are most often the biggest cowards.

  451. “Obama’s speech was wonderful. As usual one line is taken out of context and used by the right wingers”

    Yes, but he also did this in the “Great Separation” article. That’s why I wanted to provide a greater context as it surprised me to see it in this article. I wondered if he were a right-winger, too. 🙂 It really was thought-provoking.Thanks for sharing it here.

    ” It’s unbelievable that the Taliban would be so intimidated by a wee girl but then bullies are most often the biggest cowards.”

    Yes, they are cowardly nuts!

  452. I did not like that ‘out of context’ sentence in the article either but I did think the article made historical sense.

  453. The continued face of the faithful particular Islamic these days.

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/3773/the-rape-and-murder-of-pakistan-christian-children

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