Saudi Arabia: Polygamy, Coming Soon to a Country Near You

Islam allows a man to have up to four wives (pending certain conditions are met).  Therefore, if anyone has been in Saudi Arabia for even a limited amount of time, eventually one will become acquainted with a Saudi man or woman who is in a polygamous relationship.

While you would think that the increased costs across the economic spectrum would put a decrease on the number of polygamous marriages in the Kingdom, that’s not necessarily the case.  Saudi men are continuing to have multiple wives and not according to the conditions which are to be met in Islam.  These men taking additional wives are not always from the older generation either.

The Saudi Embassy in Ottawa, Canada was very frank in acknowledging that it routinely receives request from Saudi men who wish to bring more than one wife into the country.   These Saudi men are generally wealthy enough to afford bringing multiple wives to a country outside of Saudi Arabia.  They are businessmen, officials or perhaps even a student.  But in spite of their wealth, there is a “technical” problem.  Polygamy is against the law in many countries, including Canada and most of the 50 United States.

As a result, a Saudi man with multiple wives generally has to select which wife will be formally recognized as his wife when traveling.  She will be the one to receive the visa which identifies her as a wife.  Additional wives must submit a visa application independently.  After all, the wife of a Saudi does not carry his family name; she retains her own family name.  As a result it would be difficult to validate that she is a second, third or fourth wife coming to join her husband. Her visa application may state she is traveling to visit family. Children, regardless of from which wife, automatically have the family name of their father.

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111 Responses

  1. AB:

    Curious you state that polygamy is against the law in most of the 50 states of the US. Which one is it allow?

  2. I am guessing it is allowed in Nevada due to the reality show about the guy with four wives and then I know there are parts of Utah where polygamy is not hidden.

    Well…I just checked google and may have spoken too soon. According to Wikipedia, polygamy is outlawed in all 50 states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_polygamy

  3. Wives are giving the same service to men as the girl friends are . So what is the difference? Man has four wives ,it is Polygamy and a man has four girl friends ,its not polygamy whereas both are serving the man, socially, sexually, etc ,etc.
    I personally don’t find any difference.

  4. I think polygyny is illegally practiced in the US. One may be a recognized wife whereas the others are not legally married to the man. Sometimes these women even mooch off the system because they are considered single mothers in the eyes of the state and therefore eligible for benefits if they are poor enough. I’ve heard the FLDS encourage this which I find disgusting. If a man wants that many women and children, HE or SHE needs to take care of them. It’s not the taxpayers’ responsibility.

  5. @Sami – your comment confused me. If a man has four wives where polygamy is recognized, then he has four legal wives and not girlfriends. The wives would have legal rights whereas the girlfriends would not. Pretty big difference….I say that but I must also state that I am NOT in favor of polygamy….or multiple girlfriends!

    @Susanne – You are quite right. Polygamy is illegally practiced in the US and many times at the taxpayers expense. ):

  6. I feel pity for those women who carries 3/4 small kids without even knowing who is the father of the kids, without getting the dignity of being wife, without any emotional and financial suppirt but just a property possessed by many unknown men.

  7. It is against the law in Us and CANADA to have more than 1 wife. Ad that is all the is to it. Follow the rules of the land you want to go to. If you don’t like the rules do not move there. See so simple.
    Now as for women in polygamy or being girlfriends or not knowing who their baby daddies are — I say to everyone and most especially the judgmental men. Why do you care. It is her choice . She can choose to be wIfe no 4 or 10 or a girlfriend or a one night stand. Her mind her body her choice. If you think having a affair is wrong DON’T have one. See again so simple.
    Why thrust your judgmental patriarchal BS on women and other men.

  8. I would suggest that any Saudi not challenge the federal law in both Canada and U.S. Actually having more than 1 wife in Canada…is noted in the Criminal Code of Canada…..it’s a crime. It’s not just a civil law matter, folks.

    Marriage is a set of legal obligations and rights. These are serious considerations as anyone should know on divorce and child custody/ child support arrangements through the courts in Canada and U.S.

    No, I don’t agree with multiple marriage partners, ..polygamy. Am I a disrepectful Canadian?: hey, Chinese tradition before Mao in 1930’s, they did have more than 1 wife for centuries if you were rich.

    I have 2 Canadian friends who did have 2 paternal grandmothers through 1 grandfather. They didn’t give a damn about the 2nd wife…that is the type of unhappy/cold dissension that polygamy causes. There is a centuries- long tradition of Chinese literature, poetry of all this unhappiness because of polygamy. And treachery.

    Good to know that Ottawa provides information on our law. If it’s unequal treatment for the multiple wives, it is not something even started in Canada. It’s back in home country.

    And I can’t imagine how these women would feel once they start living in Canada and realize that polygamy is not socially and not legally acceptable in Canada.

  9. Monogamy…an interesting concept. I like what radha said…..who cares what other people do.

    This ideal of monogamy causes pain and grief because some men (a generous portion) and women simply cannot just be with one.

  10. Four wives or Four girlfriends or four prostitutes. The purpose is the same (sex Affair). It is just change the name of the game. Wife is responsibility others are not.. wife is legal others are not.
    Four wives carry conditions others don’t. Think ,Think,Think?

  11. exactly sami think… in canada 4 wives is not legal, on ly 1 wife is legal, so think the other 3 have NO rights. and don’t tell me islam gives them rights, it may very well do so, but unfortunately for them canda doesn’t give a rats ass about which religion prescribes how many wives, its law say good or bad 1 man 1 wife. so think, why would a god fearing, islamically correct muslim, who has chosen to uphold the tenets of islam and married 4 women be ok with treating 3 of them unequally???? so if legal wives are ok and girlfriends ar enot then such men should stay where this is legal. or else the women get the raw deal.

  12. Women in KSA are men’s property, no more no less. Most of them are okay with being a 2nd wife. Why? They are already diminished so much, that polygamy does not make any difference for how they feel.

  13. It is impossible to treat four different people with full equality. With today’s busy lifestyle we barely have time to interact properly with one spouse, let alone four. Even if having more spouses negates some of the pressures of household duties – it does not equal the time it takes to manage households, manage the children, and working to support everyone in the household.

    Some here are also making the assumption that all men have girlfriends on the side or that it is some sort of requirement. Are men animals who have no control over their thought process and bodies? Are they no better than dogs or monkeys who act purely on instinct?

    If that is the case, then women should step up and take their rightful place as leaders and the alpha position in society and do away with these thoughtless creatures whose only role in life is to spread their seed and open the occasional jar, for what is their use? By stating these “facts”, that is the only conclusion. That men are in fact the mindless creatures between the sexes and should be treated as such.

    No?

  14. @AboveZero,
    Women are a little better than property- but I would never defend their status in Saudi. But you are absolutely wrong women don’t care about polygamy there. I have known several victims of it and they care very much. It breaks hearts and ruins families. Saudi women are still people. Your words de-humanize them as much as the laws there do.

    @Sami,
    Marriage is about a lot more than having sex. If these idiot men (not all men) thought with their brains they would realize having multiple wives is not just about having multiple sex partners.

    Canada- stick to your guns.

  15. Sami … think, think, think! There was an incident here in Canada when a man came in with wife #1. #2 came in as an auntie. Husband and #2 conspired to kill #1 plus daughters. That’s what polygamy can do. I guess #2 thought she could become legal wife #1 but instead will spend a long, long time in jail along with her (in Canada) illegal husband.

  16. Sandy, I know you are a nice lady 🙂

  17. Wendy, #2 did not kill #1 because of polygamy.. It was bcause the eldest daughter was having an affair and the father did not approve of it. And when she went off and married the boy, in a fit of rage, the father conspired to kill his #1 and all his daughters. It was about the honor thing. He was too pssessive of all his womenfolk.

  18. In Canda it is legal to have as many girlfriends as one can have or want. But he is responsible for only his legal wife. Others are just for fun.

  19. @Sara
    So many girl friends is called monogamy? Why to marry?

  20. Its better to have many girl friends for sex (Affair) than to have a wife,wht do you think?

  21. Have you ever thought, every man does not have 4 wives. I think poeople are jealous. People think they are better to have sex affairs with girlfrieds or prostitutes than to have even one wife. What a logic.

  22. Ahh, politics of sexuality. Bare in mind all this hype about human sexuality is directly related to POLITICS –specially nationalist politics!

  23. Stick to the law of the land, be it Canada or KSA!

  24. @sare — no legally a man cannot take with him into Canada his girlfriends. So there no visa for Wolfe no 2 ,3,4 no visa for girlfriend either. Only 1spouse . Of course he can go no Canada ad acquire many girlfriends he can also islamically marry women there. All these laws say is when you come in there should be 1:1 wives, fiancé girlfriend, mistress whatever.

  25. Yes, Sami, it is whole lot better to have multiple girlfriends. No need for visa, or financial burden and no need even to worry about taking care of kids. And no friction at home. You are free of all that. And if you get sick and die – so what – we all have to die some day.

    The value of marriage in the western society is non-existence yet gays will fight to get married. Funny world.

  26. Sorry, Men have to take care of their kids by law no matter who is the mother, no matter if they are married. They are not allowed to abandon pregnant women like they do in most Islamic countries.

    No friction at home? It is not acceptable for married men to have girlfriends in the west AT ALL and it will often lead to divorce if discovered. Just as polygamy AND girlfriends does in Islamic societies.

    Legal marriage provides many benefits and legal rights to women and men in the west- often more than what they would get in an Islamic society (well, more for women, less for men- they don’t get to be the dictator). I don’t know where you guys get your information.

  27. Yes if they dont know they have kids then they are not responsbile for them. Like one day a girlfriend will trn up and say, hey this is your son – pay up!

    So if a gf gets pregnant, the man cannot abandon her? Sorry, but I know lots of cases where it has happened.

    No friction at hme – I mean the usual stuff thay husbands/wves will argue about – that wont be there with a gf if she is living elsewhere (maybe with another bf).

  28. The same in Islamic countries. If the girlfriend doesn’t tell the man she has a child- the father won’t do anything. But in the west a woman can take a man to court- and legally he is responsible. And just like men anywhere- even legal husbands in Islamic countries- the guy, if he has no money or is a real jerk will do what he can not to pay. Like all those husbands in Saudi taking their wifes paychecks.

  29. @sarah – oh god what have you got against women excicing their choice?

    int he west women divorce their men for having affairs – most do.
    There is nothing wrong if you are single and you have a girldfriend who is single, not all girlfriend/boyfriend have kids. yes they date and some have sex some don’t..

    There is no utopia anywhere, not int he west not in islamic societies, the west and most countries try their best to give equal rights to men and women, in islamic societies as they exist now, this is not there, women are not equal . again i’m not saying islam doesnt give that rght, i’m saying islam is not applied correctly , unfortunately for me as a women irrespective of what islam says the application is what matters.

    there are as many muslim men who abuse their rights and deny their children and have affairs as there are int he west. only extra is they call it marriage – whatever kind.
    and for all that the women cannot claim maintainence for the kids whereas int he west the men are forced to maintaint heir kids if the mother so desires.

    Again one is not better than the other, jerk men exist everywhere in equal ratios, so it’s actually the applied law that truly matters . again one can shout islam gives women more rights than anything else, but if the correct islam is not applied it doesn’t matter one bit.

  30. Some people act like a marriage certificate prevents cheating, abuse, walking away, shrugging off all responsibility etc. What world do you live in where a piece of paper has this sort of magical abilities? The paper is only as valuable as the two people whose names are on it view it.

    The Big Bad West has not cornered the market on unmarried sex…unwanted pregnancies…and adultery or cheating. It happens everywhere. There is no marriage utopia…certainly not among Muslims or any other group of people. How naive are some of the comments on here to even go there? Worth a chuckle anyhow.

  31. Sarah, I know why the killings happened but it was also a fact that they wanted wife #1 gone and that is why she also died. They will rot in prison for a very long time.

    There are many illegitimate children in Muslim countries. I wonder if these mothers can demand a paternity test to force the father to support the child? In Canada and elsewhere that is what happens.

    Regardless of what Sami and others think the women of the west are no different than those in Muslim countries except that they don’t live in fear that some man will accuse them of being promiscuous and having them harmed in some way.

    As for gay marriage … at least in Canada homosexuals can be who they are and be with who they love rather than in KSA for example where they have to marry someone of the opposite sex and live in misery and create misery for the person they marry. Gay men swish around Saudi like I’ve seen nowhere else and other men just wink, wink because it is accepted. That’s what happens when societies are segregated by gender.

  32. In KSA DNA evidence is not admitted in court. So women are stuck with no recourse- unless the man decides to admit things. But because it is criminalized they usually will not. I know they do sometimes financially support their children in the orphanages for illegitimate children in Saudi. But society and the law make it very difficult for them to keep the child- even f they acknowledge it.

  33. “Stick to the law of the land, be it Canada or KSA!”

    Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government? Indeed,
    many Muslims are loyal to the non-Muslim countries in which they live, of course, but it is in spite of Islamic teaching.

    Unlike other faiths, Islam is not just a religion but a political system as well. The state is intended to be inseparable from religious rule. Islamic law, or Sharia, is complete and not designed to coexist with or be subordinate to other legal systems.

    Muslims are not meant to be ruled by non-Muslims. The koran is very clear that they are to resist unbelievers by any means until Islam establishes political supremacy. This doesn’t mean that everyone must be forced to become Muslim, but rather that everyone must submit to Muslim rule.

  34. Not all Muslims agree that the Quran is very clear on that. You are making a claim about what the Quran says- please provide Quranic evidence.

  35. Sandy:

    Here are some passages. Oh. let me know if you can access it.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/014-loyalty-to-non-muslim-government.htm

  36. The Canadian courts don’t recognize Muslim law or shariah or whatever law. A group tried to introduce it into Ontario, but the MUSLIM Canadian women, particularily those who were university-educated, really strongly spoke against it!

  37. That is absolutely correct, Jean. Muslims themselves DID NOT want Sharia law here!!!

  38. I repeat, stick to the laws of the land, if you wish a good life for your family. If the law sucks (according to you) , why bother and go through so much trouble in attaining a visa etc? Sarah, I agree with you though about the gay marriage issue. Why is polygamy illegal but gay marriage OK? Isn’t that discriminatory in the free West? I thought all it take r consents between adults in the West, like swingers for example. Strange that! Or has the West suddenly become like Islamic countries in terms of interfering with choices??

  39. Giving links to religionofpeace website is like giving links to white supremos websites, dangerous and unreliable… So ignorant to try give evidence from people whose sole intention is absolute hate to Islam.

  40. I’m having trouble posting- I’ll try again.
    Bigstick you only prove me right. It is quite a leap from those verses to those conclusions and I am not a total idiot you know. You continue to put up very questionable “sources”. I don’t have more time to waste on such nonsense. As I said- Muslims don’t all agree the Quran is clear on any such thing.

  41. Your “reasoning” skills are on par with religious fanatics. That is not the way all Muslims or even most people “reason”.

  42. Mrs. B. there is no such freedom in the West which is based on freedom for all. One does not have right to marry more than one wven though all parties are consenting. Now in regard to the Defense of Marriage Act, they are saying that where it says that gay marriages are not recognised in US is unconstitutional. So you see, what is objected to in religion is what becomes free to do. Doesn’t the Quran say that they halal haram and haram halal? Yes in the name of freedom but freedom is not for all. As I said – funny world.

  43. @ sarah – i do believe the west ( which i assume you mean the US) is working towards gay marriage, right now gay partners are recognized for benefits and other stuff and adopting a child is legal even for a gay couple. and from what i know gay’s are free to marry in a religious setting, except that they cannot get a civil licence, exactly the same for polygamist, i don’t think the constitution cares how many people you marry in a religious ceremony as long as tey are consenting adults , they just care that you don’t derrive state benefits from it 🙂

    and like someone said, i can’t for the life of me understand why someone who is so intune with sharia and islam would even want to settle in a non-muslim country . why come and complain. when i moved to saudi i did so with wide open eyes knowing i was less than nothing. knowing i had no rights, knowing i had to be dressed a certain way, knowing i was dependent on my spouse for a lot of things, I knew the law and hence when i felt the pinch i shut up and took it, even though it was against my belief system. when so many people are able ot do that i don’t understand why the opp cannot happen. polygamy is not legal in canada and US, if that’s a deal breaker why even go there? why lie and cheat the system?? i don’t understand this at all. this should not even be a discussion point.
    ahh well guess i’m just getting old and less tolerant of BS.

  44. @Sarah,
    Since the law defines marriage as between one man and one woman, that has to be challenged in order for the law to change. Irregardless of if one is for or against same sex, there is freedom of religion. Therefore, if homosexuals want to get married, it’s hard to prove it is unconstitutional because the law here is not based on religion. Therefore, any religious reasoning behind disallowing same sex marriage would not be valid. However, this wasn’t challenged until recently when more homosexual couples and those in support of them decided to do something to change the law. Probably when there are enough polygamists in the US that want to change the law, there will be voting, and eventually it will be changed. I don’t see a problem with homosexuals getting legal rights as couples (separation of church and state), however I believe that religious marriages should be up to the individual denomination. If one isn’t catholic, one can’t be married in most (if not all) catholic churches. Why should this be any different?

    Problems with legalizing polygamy occur when it comes to things such as when a child is born, whose name goes on the birth certificate? If a person is emigrating with 4+ wives, are they all actually married to that person, or is it just a bunch of people pretending to be married to come to the US? What is the upper limit on the number of spouses because a limit (i.e. 4) can’t be chosen based on religion? What if one person is married to 5 other people, and each one of those 5 other people are married to 5 other people, too? What does that do to the legal system? These are some of the problems that will occur from legalizing polygamy that won’t occur from legalizing homosexuality. Just sayin’.

  45. sandy:

    Go to debate.

  46. Sandy:

    I am just providing you some sources not that I hold them to be true but what others view as a means to get to point A to point B. The problem that your religion and all religion has besides being manmade is that it contains enough to create hell on earth for many and create divisions just as it was designed to do. The reference was just to show you where some are going but since you want to spare. Then lets.

    There is nothing holy or divine about any religion it is delusional nothing more but it is a tool for people to use against one another.

    You don’t have to like the sources but I can provide different sects from each religion that take a portion and apply it and then show how it is being used to harm someone just as delusion manmade Bull Shit was designed to do.

    The fact that this is being used this way by Muslims/non-Muslims just proves my point.

    How about looking at the 15 year old that was shot in Swat (Pakistan) and how they justified that and then look at the different responses that Muslims give to her verses what they have given to a film. Where is the backlash to the Taliban and the countries that uphold the crap they spewed for her shooting? Oh no, but Muslims backlash against an obscure film to include killing and then the countries go after Americans and their governmentsto stifle free speech because they got their poor little under developed feelings hurt so they felt that was enough to justify killing. However, they don’t go after the Taliban and their known cohorts as it apparently doesn’t offend their delicate feelings apparently ti is just to do by the less then notatable reaction. So you tell me what is Islam standing for these days and what are Muslims allowing it to be perceived or allowing in generally? Note: I really don’t give a damn what the fairytale states … what I give a damn about is how it is being practiced. Now in many Islamic countries and in many mosques this shit is what is being taught and it is what is being practiced to include the belief in killing witches, keeping women as objects, killing for blasphemy, etc. So spare me your indignation and apply it where it needs to be and that is against your own government and Islamic governments to which are creating hell on earth for many especially for women, children, non-muslins, and LGBTs. Even in your country you are treated like an object to which you have fewer rights than your sons. Heck your male child technically owns you and yet you put up with it and the culture that degrades you to an object that can’t be responsible for yourself.
    Next until people stand up against such countries and their actions including your own (country) which doesn’t even allow any other religion or non-religion to be practiced, then I say stow it as any Muslim cohort/country has no room to address or bulk at westerns countries who do allow the practice of religion with the exception possibly polygamy which does create societal problems in the extreme.

    Next just because you interpret your way doesn’t mean it cannot be interpret other ways again look at your country and figure out how stupidly they have interpreted it and yet again you put up with it thereby allowing such crap by default, thus you support the actions of clergy by proxy.

    Remember your Clergy – Grand wacko job Pooh-Bah states to destroy churches, cries like a baby over a tweet by a 23 year and has a hand in getting him jail and 30000 of your fellow Saudi Muslims immediately call for his death. So again Islam is what Islam does which currently is abusing all those around it including marrying off children, beating women, stoning them, shooting them in the head for wanting an education, blasphemy deaths/torture/imprisonment, calling for the respect for make believe crap which has created and is creating hateful individual such as Al-Qaeda, Saudi Government, Islamist, Taliban, Al-Shobob, etc. The list of the Islam hate groups continue and you aide in your own and other women’s imprisonment by Islam as you support governments such as Saudi by proxy.

    Next
    Another site that speaks on the treatment of the lesser non-muslims from there description.

    http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/fnmuslim1.htm

    I can send you a ton more sites even from Islamic clerics which will support the very stance that you are calling fanatic all of which claim to be Islamic. So who is right and who is wrong. According to them you are wrong but according to you they are wrong. I personally think it is all a load of horse shit and that people need to stop believing in fairy tale hate crap and start believing in humanity for the sake of our children. If you believe in a God that requires a blood sacrifice then your belief is in an evil entity that evil is worse than the Devil himself as he cannot compare. Why don’t you ask yourself how many people your God has killed in his name verse the devil, you will find that hands down your God is a mass murderer, who can’t remember much, and is limited in power which comes down to it was a bunch of wackos men/women who invent a nut case entity.

    Now I hope this satisifies you need to spare with me as you seem to want to but then you have always know exactly where I stand on the matter. I have no use for make believe Harry Potter crap which has created hell on earth and keeps people in the dark ages.

  47. AB:

    Sorry, that last post was to go onto the debate page can you delete it and this one. The entry is there already.

  48. Radha,
    My take is if US is tolerant on gay marriages, then why be intolerant with polygamy as long as all are consenting to it. If they are worreid about state benefits, they can always work around it. Laws are always changing and I am sure it is not difficult in this case too.

    Yes I agree, people who prefer Shariah should not settle in countries where laws do not tolerate their faith.

    Strangeone,
    It was not me who said that gay marriage is unconstitutional. It was an appeals court in New York which ruled on, last Thursday, that a law defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman is unconstitutional. Also saying that Defense of Marriage Act discrimates against gay marraiges.

    I do not think that polygamy poses a problem regarding the paternity of the child. The man is having multiple wives and there is no doubt who the father is. The name on the birth certificate will always be the father’s. It is not like in a society where women are sleeping around and they cannot say who is the real father until some tests are done.

    And in the case of migration, the marriage license is translated by official recognised translators with their stamp. That rules out “pretending”. They cannot be married to another 4 and another 4 because the laws of the country of origin will not allow that. Of course, if they trick the system and manage to do that, then they are common criminals and that can happen even with single marriages. People can have paper marriages and migrate. Yes that can happen with any number of issues apart from marriages – just for the sake of landing in the golden lands of opportunity. As I said to Radha, there are always ways to work around the problems.

    In the case of polygamy, the adopted child does not know who is the father and who is the mother – they look physically the same unless they went under the knife. Lets be honest, here, if gay marriages was something that Islam allowed or even encouraged, you would be telling us that it is detrimental to the child’s mental health or to his/her natural development and how awful it is to put him/her in such an environment where he/she is out of the norm of nature … and a string of other thngs. Wouldn’t you?

    And another thing, if there is a spearation of religion and state why are new presidents sworn in with a hand on the bible – what does that got do with anything in a country that does not have religion and same in court rooms? 🙂

  49. Bigstick- I have plenty of indignation to go around! And I will direct it at those ridiculous sites that take the most bizarre paths from point A to point B. I know there are plenty of them. The faith is overrun by patriarchal/tribal filters. That doesn’t make it good “reasoning” Also, my faith has no “clergy” which is why I feel no obligation to listen the malarky.
    As for “my county” I am an American, not a Saudi. I am only a Saudi resident and just because I can’t overthrow the establishment single-handedly doesn’t make me somehow complicit in it.
    Now I ask you. All Muslims claim Allah is all-powerful, all knowing, MOST merciful and MOST beneficent. Most Merciful and Most Beneficent are actually the most used adjectives/names. So, assuming for a moment that to be true- whose version of Islam makes more sense? I’d say mine does. Not the fanatical, judgmental, oppressive, sometimes murderous type.

  50. Correction in my cooment to Strangeone

    “In the case of gay marriages, the adopted child does not know who is the father and who is the mother…”

  51. “” It is impossible to treat four different people with full equality. With today’s busy lifestyle we barely have time to interact properly with one spouse, let alone four. Even if having more spouses negates some of the pressures of household duties – it does not equal the time it takes to manage households, manage the children, and working to support everyone in the household.””

    This sounds like personal issues and has nothing to do with laws or the lifestyles of all. Why does your “busy lifestyle” have any bearing at all on the laws of any land? Perhaps a person with two wives and not such a busy lifestyle doesn’t want to be burdened with your personal concepts of equality and rushing about on the streets of America to get home to meet household duties.

    Your US concept of what life is about, is really nothing more than keeping up with the Jones’. It is even reflected in your neighborhoods where there is little privacy, you all mow the lawn on the same day, check the mail at the same time, and otherwise look foolish with your busy lifestyles.

  52. Randy – I’m referencing people here in the United States who have noted the BENEFITS of polygamy on a personal basis and have tried to persuade people that’s it’s so wonderful because it frees up their personal time.

    I am not about keeping up with the Jones, don’t make any assumptions about me just because I’m against polygamy. I live in an apartment in the city, I go to school to further my education while working a full-time at an extremely busy job, I take care of my son who also has school and activities. I don’t mow my lawn the same time as my neighbors, I could not care any less about what my neighbors do, have or desire.

    You may believe we look foolish with my “busy lifestyle” but I believe women look foolish when they allow themselves to be treated like objects to be collected and have no problem with their husband leaving them without companionship so he can go sleep with 3 other women and have an entire life and family that doesn’t involve her.

    We all have our opinions.

  53. Sandy see comment on debate.

  54. Jenn:

    Then lets be fair and let women have more men for variety purposes. After all fair is fair. Why should the US prevent women from having multiple husbands? If you are going to have it one way then it has to be both ways otherwise it is discriminatory in practice and nature. Why should a man have 4 wives and one or more of the wives not be satified during his absences? If he can get his game on why not the women because that is what it is about. It has never been about families, societies or children. Polygamy is about status, power and wealth to the detriment of others that includes men. Research the history of polygamy and you will find that men were shipped to wars to be killed or war was created to get rid of the excess of men as they outnumber women as women died most often in child birth and the men with numerous wives prevented other men from having a wife which created men who had no vested interesting in society or hope for a future generation unless he raped another man’s woman. So what type of society do you think this ends up being? It ends up being a brutal warring society full of rape, harassment, crime, etc. as young men are thrown away as excess and women are prized as breeding stock for the stud to his harem. It is right up there with a one buck fighting for a bunch of Does to breed with and it leaves it’s deposit and then has limited emotional investment as it then becomes the stocks job to raise the kids as he has to work to support the brood and time to make his continue deposits. The other bucks are then just thrown aways. The boy/girl ratios are 1:06 to 1:00 which means more boys are born to girls and that ratio typically only goes under that ratio after the age of 55 or so you can see that this ratio lends itself to being mongomous. See the problem, yet with polygamy?

  55. Sarah, you make some good points about why gay marriage is legal but polygamy is not. That is why some people are against gay marriage as their thoughts are ‘what next’? You also make a good point about the American supposed ‘separation of church and state’. It is a fallacy IMHO. There is no doubt that most non-Muslim countries had Christian beginnings but in theory have set religion aside in order to govern more fairly. Canada is alive and well with gay marriages but I think it will be a long time coming before we sanction polygamy but it could happen one day. If it were up to me I’d make polygamy legal if it meant keeping Sharia law out of the country. 🙂

  56. I would also add that polygamy would mean men could have more wives and women more husbands. Equality in all things, eh?

  57. You are right Wendy. But mind you it is only possible if you encourage the system of girl friend and boy friend, but not in the system of wives because later is God given system.

  58. Wendy again, Gay marriage is not God given system.

  59. @Sarah,
    Considering that the US has separation of church and state and gay marriage may soon be legalized, if 4 people were allowed to marry each other, there wouldn’t be just 1 man and 4 wives; it could theoretically be any mix of men and women up to whatever the limit was. That means one woman could theoretically have 4 husbands or 3 husbands and 1 wife, etc. Please do not forget that US law is not based solely on one religion.

    It would be difficult to prove/disprove that a US citizen who has a “mail-order” bride (or groom) is marrying the person to “settle down” if they are already married to 2+ others. Currently, I think there is an informal quota placed on the number of “mail-order” spouses one person may have (3, I think, and they all must occur separately of course).

    An adopted child of 2 gay men may very well know who the surrogate mother was (if surrogacy was used), or there may be an open adoption, meaning they know who the mother and/or father is that gave him/her up for adoption and why. IMO, however, the adoptive parent is more of a parent than a birth parent, assuming the 2 are different people. The adult that is present in the child’s life for the majority of the child’s growing-up years (and especially during the first few years of life) is more of a parent than the one who happened to give birth. But that’s just my opinion. On the adoption paperwork, it could have both men listed as “father”s or it could have one man listed as a father and the other as a “mother” depending on which gender each associates with, regulations in each state, etc.

    I do not know why each president swears on the bible, other than that it would probably hurt the president’s chance at getting re-elected if they chose not to.

    I’m not against Islam. I just happen to believe in a society where someone can be Muslim, Jew, Christian, Athiest, etc. and marry who they choose because I am in favor of free will as long as it’s not physically hurting anyone.

  60. @Sara I did not know chidren can be produced in gay marrige. Have you got any experience?

  61. My friend has a sister in a civil union with another woman. They are expecting their first child in about six weeks!

  62. Sami:

    The later is not a god system it is the system invented by elite men to have harems for purposes of sex and children. It is a power trip God not included not now not ever and not needed in the idiocy.

  63. Sami, bless your heart but your God given system is yours and not mine. I know it gives you much comfort but it doesn’t give comfort to me.
    Et el,

    Regarding gay marriage and children – gay male couples may adopt or have a surrogate mother and the sperm would be from one or both of the men. A gay female couple may choose to artificially inseminate with a male of their choosing. The children would quite probably know the genetic father. In all cases including adoption in a typical man/woman marriage it is good to know who the genetic parents are for health reasons but the people who raise the child are the parents!

    StrangeOne … sadly the separation of church and state in your country is in name only truth be told but idealistically, not in reality, religion is out of the picture.

  64. Wendy,
    Gay union is not natural in the scheme of things. We always have male and female from the smallest of creatures to the highest form – even in plant kingdom. The idea is to procreate. Adopting is not procreating. And same-sex marriages is not conforming with the natural system. And also about being equal and women being able to marry four – not everything has to be with being perfectly equal. Man and women have different needs. Male speicies tend to have more than one female partner in nature. That is how nature works. We, humans tend to change nature and create disasters along the way.

    Nature is beautiful and everything is set in place perfectly for our benefit. We have no right to destroy it or change it to suit our fancies.

    Sami – No I don’t have experience. Yes you are right, by natural sytem gay union can never reproduce but they usually adopt to make a “family”.

    Strangeone,
    An adopted child may very well know his birth parents but being raised in a bizarre environment is not natural. This is what I am trying to say. Knowing is different but being raised in a certain way is another thing. And by the way, in Islam, the only mother a child can have is the one whom she bears her womb and no one else. Which is absolutely true. However there are such people called foster parents.

    You said :”marry who they choose because I am in favor of free will as long as it’s not physically hurting anyone”

    I agree with your opinion. 🙂

  65. Sarah – there are actually many instances of homosexual behavior that is displayed in animals and insects.

  66. there are actually many instances of homosexual behavior that is displayed in animals and insects.

    There are also many instances of the female killing and eating up the male, many instances whereby the father would eat up the offspring, not to mention inbreeding is part and parcel of the animal kingdom. What’s your point Jenn? Do you think we should start inbreeding coz hey it’s part of the animal’s nature. We are different from animals. But I can tell you one thing, procreating and homosexuality don’t go together.

  67. Jenn, yes ther are homosexual behavior observed in nature. All these observations did not show any of them living in a homosexual lifestyle; they just “did the acts” and in some case in flora world, there were certain reasons for such behavior. However for humans it is just unnatural.

  68. The point *is* you can’t go in circles and say it’s not natural because only humans do it (homosexual behavior) then turn around and say, “well, it’s not natural for HUMANS”.

    So, what you ARE saying is since humans have a mind that they should use it? So in that case maybe those Muslim and Mormon men who have so many wives should learn how to just keep it in their pants and go against their ANIMAL instincts and be HUMAN, henceforth monogamous?

    You are giving excuses to MEN, saying it’s just NATURE so it’s okay, when it is convenient for your situation.

    Yes, it is natural for men to want to spread their seed, just as it is natural for women to get bored with her husband and want to sow her oats a little bit as well. But the point is that in Mormon and Muslim religions the women is considered just a piece of property to be managed. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with power and control and using religion as an excuse.

    I can see why polygamy could be beneficial to women in the Middle East given the social structure of women and the requirement in some countries to have a man as her guardian.

    But as an American, the religious version of these relationships – keep them there. We can keep our ability to date before marriage, ability to not need a man to support us, ability to not be killed by our parents or brother if we get out of line while our brother goes to visit prostitutes and do whatever he wants…keep all that there.

    I believe it is a very rare instance where a woman woke up one fine morning and said, “You know, I REALLY want to be a 2nd or 3rd wife! Who wants to be the only apple in my husband’s eye? That is my real dream in life.”

  69. Sarah,
    Thank-you for your comments. It has been established as fact in the medical and genetic fields that homosexuality is something people are born with. They are genetically attracted to the same sex. There are also people born in the wrong body so to speak. These are medical facts that many religions still wish to dispute. When the holy books were written this was not a known fact and the whole idea in the holy books was to have people reproduce. If you think about it we have reproduced waaaaayyyyy too much! We are having trouble feeding this reproduction result in this world. LOL!!!

    Homosexuality does exist in the animal world (we are animals) due to a quirk in the make-up of those beings. It should not be a sin and it should not be shunned and shut away and punished and if two people who are gay wish to be ‘married’ then so be it. Children want to have parents who love them and they don’t care what gender the parents are.

  70. I just love how heterosexuals can forcefully claim that homosexuality is against the nature of humans…but they have no idea what it feels like to be born gay so how can they make such a claim? You are passing judgement on something you have no clue about other than a man made book told you it’s forbidden and unnatural. If you are in the mood to start making personal judgements …start with yourself…and end with yourself.

  71. @susane October 20
    There must be some cheating. The homosexual women must be carring the of some male.

  72. Sami – whatever you have said doesn’t translate properly to English.

  73. Sami, no cheating. Just IVF.

  74. You are giving excuses to MEN, saying it’s just NATURE so it’s okay, when it is convenient for your situation.

    Never said nor agreed with that!

  75. We aren’t animals, you may believe so but what differs us from animals is despite sharing many common traits with them we have an extra faculty-intelligence. And no. science have only made theories about being born gay, haven’t truly establish any fact about it.

    Columbia University Professor of Psychiatry Dr. Robert Spitzer, who was instrumental in removing homosexuality in 1973 from the American Psychiatric Association’s list of mental disorders, wrote a study published in the October 2003 Archives of Sexual Behavior. He contended that people can change their “sexual orientation” from homosexual to heterosexual.8 Spitzer interviewed more than 200 people, most of whom claimed that through reparative therapy counseling, their desires for same-sex partners either diminished significantly or they changed over to heterosexual orientation.

    In May 2000, the American Psychiatric Association issued a Fact Sheet, “Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues,” which includes this statement:

    “Currently, there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.”
    Taken from http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=5458

  76. Jenn,
    I think you did not understand me. I am sorry for not explaining myself clearly. Let me try again. Animals are of the lower species and from this species, there are certain characteristics that we, humans as higher species do not share. You see what I am trying to tell you, Jenn, is that even though we are all living creatures, we do not behave in the very same way. So if animals on the lower rung behave in certain way, we on the highest rung and who have the capacity to think and have intellect, do not have to follow the lower species. Animals show homosexual behaviour but it is not their lifestyle. It does not mean that they PREFER same sex, it is just an “act” which is instinctive in them. They do not realise much of what they are doing unlike us humans. Animals do not date, court, marry, divorce, have ivf, surrogate mothers …etc – they just live in a way that nature provides for them. They mate, procreate, eat, sleep and die. But for us humans, we have intellect to think. That is what makes us different from animals. But those people who prefer same sex behave in a way that even animals do not behave.

    You said an interesting thing: “So in that case maybe those Muslim and Mormon men who have so many wives should learn how to just keep it in their pants and go against their ANIMAL instincts and be HUMAN, henceforth monogamous?”

    Well then, Jenn, men who have mistresses by the tons should do the same, don’t you think? Marriage alone does not make it monogamous. It is the “act”.

    No, Jenn, sorry, polygamy’s purpose is not about control. There are reasons behind it. You have to keep in mind that before verse came, men had limitless wives and Quran put a stop to this and limited the number of wives one can have and that too with certain conditions. Quran also says that if you cannot keep these conditons, then marry only one.

    Yes you can certainy keep your ability to date and work and get married and have side-dishes. 🙂 That is your choice and you are free to make it.

    No, a woman would not dream to be a 2nd or 3rd but if a sitution calls for it, then she might accept it or not. Again that is her choice and she is free to take it. Would you prefer your man rather just have one night stands or a full-fledged relationships behind your back – without any reason? And yes, there are muslims who do this as well and it is wrong.

    Coolred,
    “but they have no idea what it feels like to be born gay so how can they make such a claim?”

    Tell me then, how it feels like. Do you know how it feels like?

    Coolred, how did you come into this world – through an union of male and female.

  77. Wendy, humans are naturally hetros because the idea behind this is to procreate but people choose homo lifestyle because it is a CHOICE. Behaviours are learnt. Humans are able to control their thoughts and make certain behavior dominate over others. They choose to do this and learn it and make it a lifestyle. They make themselves believe that this is HOW they are.

    No researcher has yet found provable biological or genetic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals. By the way, a very high percentage of homos reorient themselves. There is an institute in UK which helps them to go the natural way. They have been very successful. If it is something that is genetic or something that happened at birth, it would not have been possible for them to be straight.

    Wendy humans are not animals – that is why we are called humans. You are insulting the animals 🙂

  78. Sarah – Why do you keep inserting into the argument that if a man does not have many wives that the only alternative for him is to sleep around? You’ve just stated that we aren’t just animals who thrive on instinct and since we are human, we have the ability to think and act accordingly. So my question is – are you suggesting that men simply do not have the brain power to physically stop themselves from sleeping with many women once they’ve made a commitment, perhaps even to GOD in order to do so?

    Secondarily – On one hand you state that a man with many wives do not do so simply out of control. Are you suggesting that it is because men thrive on variety and can’t live their lives having sex with the same women for years? If that is the case, would it make a difference if a man has one wife or four? After all, once you’ve been married for 20 years … it doesn’t matter, those 4 are the same four. Week after week, month after month and year after year.

    If variety is the issue – don’t women enjoy variety? How many men complain that their wives aren’t interested in sex with them? I can bet it’s because they are BORED. I’m sure many men aren’t the Casanovas they like to think they are, lol.

    One thing I’ve noticed about that there are some Muslim men who believe it is not only their right, but their biology that requires them to not be faithful to just one woman. Don’t you think being taught this just puts those thoughts in their mind? Are you suggesting that it is a given that a man will cheat on his wife unless you give him a loophole?

    If it was not about control and ownership, then a woman would be allowed to have more than one husband (who in their right mind would want more than one is beyond me, but I digress).

    I did read an article about a woman who had two “husbands”, of course they were not legally married as it was here in the United States. Kudos to her.

    With all this being said, if there are people who want to engage in such a lifestyle, good for them. As long as it isn’t some religious institution that deems that one person is not equal to the other. Personally, there is NO WAY I’d allow such a situation. Unless of course he would be happy to have a 2 man and 2 woman polygamist relationship — someone to be there when he isn’t. But then, what’s the point? It all becomes quite complicated if you ask me and I’m more of a simple, uncomplicated person.

    I know my post may come off as bashing men, it just blows my mind when some (no one here) really believe men are somehow superior to women. It actually makes me chuckle. How many men have lost it all just to get in some women’s pants? (Tiger Woods, anyone?) Most women are much too smart to take such risks and know a romp in the hay isn’t worth potentially losing everything for.

    In regards to homosexuality – the words of many of that persuasion of simply stated, “Do you REALLY believe I chose this? The ridicule, the suffering.” And a common question for a woman is, “When did you wake up and decide that you were attracted to men and not women?” I know that I personally, as a woman, have ZERO attraction to women and there was never a time that I made that decision. That’s just the way it is.

  79. @ Wendy

    Sex (as in being physically male or female) is innate (natural). Gender (playing the role of a woman, man, third gender) is socially constructed (nurture). Thus, attraction is learned behaviour. Also, sexual orientation is FLUID, meaning it can change over time.

    In some cultures prior to industrialization, homoerotic behaviour was common yet it doesn’t imply that one is strictly homosexual.

    @ Sarah

    Reproduction is high political concern for national governments (to reproduce the culture, a workforce). Thus, homosexuality is usually condemned. But is it against nature to do homoerotic acts? I’d say not. Again, many non-human species have homosexual habits also. I guess too many are unaware that men (and women) can orgasm in the ‘backdoor’ without genital stimulation (how ironic)!

  80. Jenn,
    Most of the questions, you are asking me, are answered by yourself in your own comment. 🙂

    “are you suggesting that men simply do not have the brain power to physically stop themselves from sleeping with many women once they’ve made a commitment”

    Jenn, look around you. And you will get the answer. Look at your politicians, sportsmen, celebrities, anyone in the neighborhood. And what is this wife swapping thing? Maybe men can control themselves but they don’t because its easily available. Men’s needs are different from women.

    “…made a commitment, perhaps even to GOD in order to do so?”

    When did that ever stop them? Ask the preachers in the church, ask the men of God.

    “On one hand you state that a man with many wives do not do so simply out of control”

    I did not say that. I said that polygamy is not about control OVER woman. Men can stay committed to one woman throughout his or her life but when opportunity strikes at a weak moment, yes, msitakes can be made and that mistake can continue. I am not saying this is usually the case but yes some men do control themselves even with all the temptations. Polygamy, as I said, is for a reason, not to sleep around for the sake of variety. Women find satisfcation with the one man she loves. Her needs are more with words and actions but men’s needs are more physical. When a woman loves a man, her mind and soul is on that one man. You answered this yourself when you asked why would a woman want more than one man. And a man would not want either because that would mean more responsbilities and dealing with all those naggings! 🙂

    ” I know that I personally, as a woman, have ZERO attraction to women and there was never a time that I made that decision.”

    You took the keyboard from under my fingers and typed it yourself – “That’s just the way it is”.

    You did not make that decision because that was engraved in your mind by nature.

  81. escortdiary

    “is it against nature to do homoerotic acts? I’d say not… I guess too many are unaware that men (and women) can orgasm in the ‘backdoor’ without genital stimulation (how ironic)!”

    I don’t the answer. You would know better.

  82. I so disagree Sarah. The reason for polygamy was because in a tribal society care for war widows and orphans necessitated. That is all the Quran says- and the rest is BS men entitling themselves. Men are perfectly capable of being faithful if they want- and women want variety too. People make choices whether to honor their commitments or not.

    Personally, I much rather my husband had a fling than a second wife. We *might* survive the fling- depending on many circumstances- we would never survive a second wife, and his relationships with his children would be ruined.

    Homosexual behavior is clearly a part of nature and there is no reason to suppose mankind would be any different. You could argue that the sin is acting on the preference- but you can’t really credibly deny that many people are wired that way.

  83. Sandy – I did say polygamy is for certain reasons. I did not say anything about entitling themselves. Please so not say something that I did not say.

  84. I would think it is gentlemanly of my husband to take another wife to help her rather than have a fling for his own physical needs, and break the trust.

  85. Sarah…did you come into the world believing such things of people, or did your religion, family, friends etc influence you to believe them? We aren’t born to hate, discriminate, or judge…we are taught that. Period.

  86. Why isn’t it good enough that gay people say they have no choice in how they feel? Why can’t we take their word for it? Why do some people need a god or doctor to validate a feeling before it can be believed and accepted for what it is?

    Because we need to feel superior to someone to validate our own miserable existence. I may be THIS but at least I’m not THAT.

  87. @Sarah, You’ve said a whole bunch of stuff about men’s needs and their nature etc. That is what I meant about their special entitlement which I call BS.

    And I doubt very much you would rather your husband make a permanant decision to “help” a woman for his own physical needs, with a woman who doesn’t mind destroying your marriage,than make a short term mistake. However I sincerely hope you never find out. I’ve seen both things happen to people and neither is pleasant at all.

  88. @Sarah – While I certainly don’t find a fling or the taking of another wife an appetizing decision – a fling is something that is momentary. A decision made at a weak moment. The taking of another wife is an emotional connection to someone else that is taking away from the other person while that other person is supposed to just sit by and not have her own emotional needs met because her husband is “busy”.

    Second – if men are in fact the non-thinking animals, non-brain power having persons: Why would GOD, being a being that is all-knowing, give men such power over women? Men, are, after all just good for being physically stronger and pumping out sperm to make babies. That means that women are in fact the brain power of the two and should be in charge. Men should be covering their eyes to shield their weak minds from the beauty of women – not women covering themselves. Men should be simple body guards used to protect women but women should be the mental power house whom makes all the decisions. If men, in fact, just can’t help themselves.

    Personally, I think men CAN help themselves, but why would they if they’ve been given that loophole and have been told it’s not only accepted but encouraged.

  89. @sarah – my husband is muslim and would be highly offended by your description of men . very very offended.
    you support only polygamu where 1 husband has many wives and nothing else, how is that right? is it just because a book said so, if sop that’s fine. that’s all you have to say. a lot of my friends say they accept polygamy because it is ok inthe koran. they don’t accept women having many husbands, they don’t accept gays etc., that is their opinion and i’m proud of them to state it openly.If that makes them judgemental they don’t care.their stand is made. and they say it’s their belief system right or wrong.

    But you seem to want to give reasons to why it is so.
    No it cannot be explained, it is inherently not fair towards women, bt if you cannot change the fact by arguing against gay rights and women havinig many husbands.

    and no most of us do not expect our husbands to have more than 1 wife and definetly do not tolerate them having girlfriends or affairs , and if they need to help a pious woman , then we ( as in a team) provide her food , clothing, shelter and a means to support herself and her children if any without seeing the need to marry her and expect her to provide sexual favors for the help we rendered. the respect for a women doesn’t lie in her marital status.

    Again what about the men in need, you do realise that there are men who are poor and desperate and who have lost limbs/ have a med condition etc., that need food, care and shelter??? so who marries them? nobody why they dont have a need to fill their stomachs and lead respectable pious lives???

    I’m not again polygamy, i seriously don’t care what consenting adults do and i’m very much for gay marriage too. it’s not my choice but i’m no one to judge if it’s right or wrong.

    I defend the rights of people fighting for polygamy ONLY because it is a right to free choice. so i support men who want 4 wives as much as i support women who want 4 husbands..

    We got a civil licence to please the law and get the benefits,and visa etc.,
    We got a islamic nikah so i could get a visa to enter the ksa an dhave my marriage validated.
    We got an hindu wedding done to please my parents, grandparents and society at large and also register our wedding to maintain our family lineage and recordings.

    none of this matters to us. it’s a commitment between us that matters, so i don’t see why other people cannot feel the same way, gay or straight.

  90. Coolred,
    When I came into this world, I did not come with any such knowledge. Thanks for asking.

    I read alot and came to form my own opinions based on studies an researches and my judegement. And I am entitled to my own views just as anyone else.

    Sandy.
    If I had said a lot of things which BS to you, then that is only your opinion, yes? It does not make my opinion null and void. 🙂 Not everyone things the same as you.

    No I did not say my ‘husband make a permanant decision to “help” a woman for his own physical needs’. What I said was for the other women – NOT for his own physical needs. And by the way, Sandy, you pass judgement very quickly and tell others not to do the same. That “permanant decision” is already a done deal and I am okay with it. So much for your “doubt”, eh? 🙂

  91. Jenn,
    Yes I agree that taking another wife is an emotional connection to someone else. That is how one starts to think but once the dust settles down, it is not so bad. It is just plain painful at first but it gets easier.

    Can’t comment on your second paragraph because it does not make sense to me and also I have not said any such things.

    Radha,
    if your husband gets offended by my comments what is one to do. We always get offended by this or that. That is life. He will get over it.

    How is polygamy right? As I said if it is practised for a reason then it is right and if it is abused then its not right. Yes I do give reasons because I do not accept something just because it is said so. I agree most of us do not expect our husbands to marry more than one but it does and can happen.

    I respect your opinions though and do not think they are BS.

    Have a wonderful day.

  92. Hi all sorry if I post my request in a wrong place, I’m an MA student of linguistics.. I’m doing my MA thesis and I need 12 female speakers to answer my questionnaire.. It includes short 9 conversations about the speech act of apology. plz I need a hand 🙂

  93. Sorry Nahid, I can’t help you, lol! 😉

  94. Sarah, I respectfully say that on the subject of homosexuality you are very wrong. It’s not your fault – you live in a society that refused to accept medical and other scientific facts because they go against a very old book. You are wrong though. There is much scientific evidence and it is growing daily.

    On the subject of humans being so superior mentally to other animals … that is also a fallacy. Humans have assumed that because animals can’t speak they are not intelligent. Again science is proving that to be very wrong.

    Polygamy for Mormons is encouraged for one reason only … to multiply and add more Mormons to the world.

    I know one Muslim second wife. She became a second wife only because she was getting on in years and wanted a baby. Pregnancy is not happening so I expect that if she doesn’t become pregnant she will leave the marriage. The woman herself is financially independent.

    My husband’s grandfather had two wives and he told his sons never to marry a second wife because it will only bring grief and sadness to everybody involved. Wise man!!!!!!

  95. If you’re fine with it Sarah, then so am I. I really don’t care what consenting adults do. I do believe it is for his own physical needs however. There is no reason you cannot help a woman without insisting on sex in return.

    And yes. You can of course keep your opinion of the “special” issues men have controlling their needs- or whatever. And I can continue to think it is BS. They’ve just been spoiled to feel entitled to bad behavior.

  96. Wendy,
    My opinion did not come out of where I live or the old books or whatever. I have read several studies conducted by the western specialists. As I said there are various studies going on in UK an USA which support my views.So please do not assume that it has to do with the society. I have not been raised in Saudi society. I would kind ask you to google these studies and you will see that it has nothing to do with what the old books say because these experts are westerners.

    I do however understand what you are trying to say.

    Sandy, sometimes in 2nd or 3rd … marriages sex does not play a part. It is just as I said – a help. I know that people these days do marry for no particular reason other than physical needs but that is ok because there are some who have more needs than others. But I am against those who abuse this practice. Have a nice evening.

  97. @ Sandy – Spoiled is spot on. When I met my significant other I thought Arab men were these strong manly-men who were just stronger then American men in a general sense. From the examples I’ve seen in the friend and family circle, that is not true. I’ve seen so many men whom if they aren’t pampered properly their egos are bruised and wounded because they’ve been used to all the women in their lives catering to them to such a degree that they don’t know how to handle not being put on a pedestal. I believe coming to the United States is a big eye-opener for many, particularly if they are young and single. My own SO, in the beginning years: if I wasn’t cooing and smiling at him all the time thought I must be mad at him.

    Of course, this doesn’t stand for ALL of the men and it not scientific in nature in any sense. But, this is just what I’ve witnessed over the years for many men I’ve been around.

    One man in particular, they just moved to the United States and he’s constantly “joking” to his wife that he’s going to find a second wife that is a white American. She takes it in stride when she knows people are looking but it hurts her. She’s not “allowed” to do anything but pretend it’s all a big joke because to “strike back” and threaten to get her own boyfriend to compensate is HUGELY frowned upon and considered so rude. Even if it’s a joke. As if.

    I say good luck to him trying to set up that cozy arrangement, lol.

  98. @ Sarah , if sex doesn’t play a part- then one can simply help the woman in need. No need to marry. I imagine there are few men marrying multiple wives and not having sex with them. And you are correct some people do have more physical needs than others. And sometimes it’s the woman or the wife not the man or the husband.

  99. @Jenn. That’s not a very funny joke. And he may try to act on it. I know more than one woman in that very situation with husbands that used to “joke” about it. What a jerk.

  100. Sandy,
    Well, yes one may help without marriage but for a woman, being married is a kind of status rather than being alone and spinister. She will life in dignity.

    I know someone whose husband jokes and says he will marry a yonuger wife and she will reply that she will get a richer husband. 🙂

  101. @sarah — “for a woman, being married is a kind of status rather than being alone and spinister. She will life in dignity”

    Exactly what i try not to teach my daughter, marriage is not the begin all and end all of life, marriage is not a necessity, do not enter into marriage for any of the 100 reasons society dictates. your happiness is more important than being married and staying married .
    Find your self worth int his life without the need for marriage to validate it. etc., etc.,

    anyway your beliefs to you i guess. It’s just that we come from such different world and our beliefs are radically different.

  102. you live in a society that refused to accept medical and other scientific facts because they go against a very old book. You are wrong though. There is much scientific evidence and it is growing daily.

    What a bunch of BS, as if we dont have access to information as you do. There is no scientific evidence, merely theories (many forged theories). Even Alfred Kinsley had to forge his “discoveries” to make his BS seem true.

    About polygamy, Neither fling nor marriage for my Mr or divorce will be in line. What Sandy said about reason for polygamy in the Quran is true.

  103. Radha,
    It is certainly okay to help those in need without marrying them. But everyone feels lonely, everyone needs companionship, a little loving and caring, a feeling of being needed, followed by being worthy – especially for orphans. Marrying them would not only raise their status but also boost their morale in this cruel world we live in and make them feel that they are useful to the society, protected, cared for ..etc.

    Yes a poor man also needs all the loving and caring and if a kind-hearted woman decides to marry him to provide him company and take care of him, that is rewardable.

    If you as a team help orphans and needy, that is well and good.
    You can teach your daughter anything you want. Do you teach her its okay to sleep around and then decide which one makes her happy and then she may marry if she thinks that is what will make her happy? Radha, you are a parent have a right over your children. You are the teacher of your children. You have to tell them what is right and what is wrong and not be afraid if you have done the right thing. When your kids are small, they cannot choose and tell what is good and bad because they are not experienced enough. That is why parents are there.

    Marriage is an instituition which protects the society and honors the people involved.

    And yes, Radha, you are from different environment so we cannot really see eye to eye. Good luck.

  104. I just have to say NOTHING Radha has said indicates she teaches her daughters to “sleep around”. In fact, that has nothing to do with anything she has said. Saying-even suggesting this sort of thing to someone about their parenting and/or daughters is insulting to the parent and to the girls. I don’t know about your culture, Sarah- but in the west it’s in very poor taste.

    There is plenty of work to do in the world to feel needed, worthy and useful. And plenty of people to meet while doing these things to develop companionship. So no need to be taking other peoples husbands- especially if the Muslim community is willing to help support those in need. Of course, if the only way a woman can survive is to sell herself into marriage- that’s another story.

  105. Sandy,
    If I have offended Radha then I apologize – it was not my intention to do that. Sorry, but I am direct, poor taste or not. And if you had not noticed, there are many things said in poor taste all over this blog especially about Islam. Nobody says we are offended, do they?

    I was not exactly referring to Radha’s recent comments but her overall general comments where she says that she leaves everything to her children to decide.

    Sandy, maybe there are people who will be busy with work but there do exist poor people in the world. Maybe where you come from, you have not seen but they are there. Some orphans would have no choice. Maybe in your country they keep animals for company but in some other countries they prefer to marry and support each other. 🙂

    As I said again and again, polygamy is for certain reasons. It is not something that is encouraged. Hope you get it. Have a great day.

  106. @sarah – i don’t think i say anywhere that i leave everything to my children to decide, most parents will guide them till they are 18 but after that YES absolutely i will leave them to decide their lives. that is how adults work world over.

    and no i don’t tell my daughter to sleep around at all and you are not direct you say bad , insulting stuff 🙂 and yes in very poor taste not just in the west but inthe east as well.

    In india and KSA as well as many other eastern cultures what you said is an insult not just to a parent but to women and mothers in general, I do not think there is ANY mother who teaches her children to sleep around.

    But at the same time it is my duty as a parent to make sure a child especially my girl child knows her self worth and respect is not tied to her marital status, if she feels she is not respectable without marriage or need someone to validate her worth and existense then i have failed in my duty as a parent. do we teach our boys to marry for respect and status? i especially din this into my daughter just so no jerk takes advantage of her, just so she doesn’t feel stuck in a marriage and just so she knows We her parents WILL NEVER judge her for her choices.

    Unfortunately just the other day i was telling Carol how my daughter has chosen a very challengind medical program and how i was worried that she will spend all her time studying and not socializing. 🙂 inspite of me being a lenient mom somehow both my kids seem to be on the straight and narrow path and completely focussed on their careers , i wish they would date someone their age and with similar interests and find the joy that love and companisonship has to offer . and no that does not mean sleep around . you do know 2 young people can date and chat and have a good time without sleeping around don’t you?

    I thnk most successful marriage start with friendship first. atleast it did for me , we were the best of friends before we decided to take it ot the next level of marriage. and going by my example that is what i hope for my children.

    and if it’s their choice to follow polygamy and there is no force and they all enjoy it , then again it is their RIGHT.

  107. Radha,
    Sorry I did not say that you ‘tell’ your kids to sleep around. That is absolutely false. And you saying that of me is offending me. I asked you “Do you teach her its okay to sleep around…” There is a big difference here. I asked that because you said that you will teach her anything you want so I asked do you teach her that also? Meaning do you teach her EVEN those things. I did not mean that you tell her or teach her to do that. Hope you get what I mean.

    And, Radha, you did say some months ago that as your kids were growing you left it to them to decide what religion they want to choose. Were they 18 and adults that time? I was referring to that comment of yours. And sometimes you say that want your kids to do abc and they want xyz but you do not want to voice your wishes because they should do what they want. So this comes to me as if you are afraid to tell them what you think. Don’t you tell them “This is what I think and prefer but it is upto you ..?” I am just saying as how it seems to me.

    If you are guiding your kids to develop into mature, hard-working individuals then good for you. You must be good mom to them.

  108. Sarah –

    I allow them to make decisions that do not cause harm to their physical and mental their well being,

    choosing a religion to follow that is after their own heart and what speaks to them is not harming them.
    and yes i would prefer my daughter not doing medicine because it is a long hard road but she wants to and so i let her.
    I do not want my son to go to vipasana meditation in spain but will let him decide if he feels that’s the right htng to do.

    however no me , me or someone else ( in your words) ‘ Teaches a daughter to sleep around ‘ 🙂 what kind of question is that?? and yes you asked if i teach her those kinds of things, what things ???

    I speak to her regarding everything, I have spoken to her about her body, respecting it, i have taught her about puberty,the changes, the birds and the bees and yes about sexual relationships and what is right and what is wrong , what is forced, what is pressure , STD’s and even protection . IMO EVERY parent needs to have this discussion.
    this has nothing to do with the original comment on teaching a girl her self -worth…
    again i repeat self -worth and respect IMO is not tied to marriage or sex or anything like that.

    If a parents doesnt let their children make guided, decisions , that maybe sometimes lets them fail, there is no way they are going to miraculously become adults who make wise choices.
    Ago doesn’t bestow wisdom, just gives experience.

    and no you meant exactly what you typed 🙂 ” Do you teach her its okay to sleep around and then decide which one makes her happy ”

    but it doesn’t matter like we agreed you and me are different with diff ideas on life .

  109. Radha,
    No sorry, I meant what I meant because it was me who wrote it and I know with certainity what I meant. It is possible that the way one writes something does not carry exactly what is in the mind of the writer. I apologize again if you took offense and for not expressing myself clearly. If you still think otherwise, then there is really nothing I can do. 😦

    But I am glad that you explained to your kids all that needs to be explained. You know, sometimes I feel that parents neglect their children and leave them to find out by themselves. I really hate that. Believe me, my heart usually skips a beat whenever you write that you leave it to the kids. I know they are your kids and not my responsibility. Call it OCD or whatever, I just need to know that parents do inform their kids about the real world. I find some satisfaction in that. So your last comment bought me immense satisfaction. 🙂 Maybe you find that strange. As I said you are a good mother.

    Have a nice day.

  110. sarah – no i didn’t take offense, i don’t usually take anything written on the internet to heart 🙂

    and yes i educate my kids but i also leave it to them. their choice is ranked quite high .. and yes the advise is also only that advise, not forced unless it harms them or others.

    hence their choice in religion, education, career, friends, clothes and future relationships are all left to them. this includes marriage and kids too.
    like i said we are very liberal parents and I’m a feminist to boot and belive in giving my kids especially my daughter complete freedom to choose her path even though it may radically differ from mine.

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