Saudi Arabia: Beware of the Escalator and the Trailing Abaya



The malls in Saudi Arabia will have a number of escalators throughout for shoppers to easily reach all the enticing stores.  However, women, whether a Saudi woman or an expat woman, should approach the escalators with caution.

Several of my Saudi sister-in-laws prefer to wear a long trailing abaya which conceals their feet.  However, these kind of abayas can come with unforeseen hazards.  For example, one time my sister was going up an escalator and as she reached the top she did not realize that the back end of her abaya had gotten caught in the escalator.  Instead of sliding out onto the next level, she became caught as the fabric of the abaya became entwined with the moving escalator.  Thankfully a quick-thinking and strong husband ripped the caught material so she was freed from what could have been a tragic accident.  Yes; she could have also stepped out of the abaya to be freed but that would have gone against the Saudi tradition of women being covered while in public places.

Therefore, it’s not a bad idea for a woman to think carefully before purchasing and wearing certain styles of abayas.  Some abayas are designed to look like they have a “formal train” in the back.  While the design is unique, the style can actually be hazardous to your well-being.  In addition, the trailing abayas will easily pick up the dirt and grime from the floors and sidewalks necessitating frequent washing.

I may not have worn the most traditional of abayas when I was in Saudi Arabia but I can say it was very practical.  Mine bedu abayawas custom made by our own Aafke.  It came with pockets, a hood for when it was prudent to cover the head, attractive snap buttons and it was the perfect length to walk unhindered.

Can any American Bedu readers also share their abaya experiences?


137 Responses

  1. It’s not just abayas too. My mom got her loafer stuck in an escalator and they had to shut down the whole thing. Almost took her foot off…

    EVERBODY should be careful on escalators.

  2. Ouch!!! Good point, Never Ever.

    On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 6:44 PM, American Bedu

  3. Yes best to make sure that you are never without the black “awrah” bag. It would be awful if women were seen unislamically or if you like you can call it the oppressive Saudi Tradition……………….. who knows it might turn into a 2002 event where you could be beaten back into a burning building because we all know the black “awrah” (sex organ covering) bag is more valuable than what is underneath it.

    By the way never take dogs on one either unless you are carrying it. I watched a small dog get it’s paw sucked right into it and broke the leg. Not a good thing. Good thing they had emergency shut off buttons who knows just how bad it could have gotten.

  4. Don’t know much about abayas but last year I wore a grim reaper costume for Halloween (not much different from a simple abaya when you think about it). Tripped all over myself wearing it.

  5. Shopping trolleys are also a problem – I always flick my abaya up a bit when riding on the escalator but need both hands for the trolley – I have one abaya in particular that is always getting caught in the wheel – luckily I haven’t actually fallen but still untangling it from where it is wrapped around the wheel is an interesting experience!

  6. Going up or down stairs can be hazardous as well. I always step on my abaya when I’m running on stairs and mine are not long at all.

  7. I never got the hang of doing stairs or escalators gracefully. I was terrified of getting caught or falling so I’d lift it up showing my jeans or pants or skirt and to heck with it. As I didn’t have my head covered and don’t look like I’m from the ME nobody said anything to me. I was amazing at how my family could get along with ground length abayas. I’d trip over the front when I was walking sometimes as well. Darn! LOL!

  8. F was always ready with a ‘pick it up’ warning.. I had 2abayas. One slightly shorter but didn’t want to risk it. I think I was more irritated with F’s paranoia that I was going to fall and crack my skull than the actual abaya. I’m used o a sari. So I just picked it up up and down the stairs. I hate the kind that touched the floor. Dirty and disgusting for my peace of mind. Mine didn’t touch the floor and yet got washed weekly

  9. Allah didn’t know there were going to be moving escalators I suppose…
    She also didn’t know women who cover all their skin all the time they will get sick and suffer lots of deficiencies.
    One wonders, is Allah stupid or is it all made up?

  10. I remember an almost tramatic experience in Medina. I think it was at the mosque of the 2 qibla’s, and the women needed to take an escalater to the top to their section. These escalators were unusually steep and fast-moving. On the way down, almost to the end. some older women behind me either lost their balance, or their abaya got temporarily stuck. They were starting to fall, and I heard their screams. I had just reached the bottom, and was able to catch them. It was really scary.

  11. @Kristine,

    That reminds me of being on escalators with women who did not like them and were scared to get off when either at the top or bottom — equally dangerous!

    On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 6:23 PM, American Bedu

  12. I have problems with the abaya and shopping cart/trolley. It is particularly tiresome and embarrassing to bend over and either delicately untangle or yank the offended cloth out of the cart wheel. Then I’m looking around to see how many people are noting my problem, ugh!

    Driving down the road, I’ve also seen several abayas flapping in the wind because the owner didn’t realize she didn’t have everything pulled into the car properly. :->

  13. I always considered abayas to be explicitly modern garments, only suitable for urban air-conditioned living. No normal woman could do anything useful on either the farm or tending children or livestock wearing one (and of course they didn’t in Saudi Arabia until they were forced to). But apparently they are not suitable for urban living either.

  14. Yes; the flapping piece of abaya from the car door is a common sight.

    One time my husband saw a woman whose abaya was about to get caught in her shopping cart. He sent me to tell her for fear of offense if he, as an unknown male, were to approach and talk to her…even to help!

    On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 8:15 PM, American Bedu

  15. When the weather is warm enough to permit it, I prefer to wear long dresses and long skirts and have all of the problems above mentioned with abayas. I actually tripped over it while walking in the classroom and ended up sprawled facedown in front of a class full of students. Still, I love them to be long enough to almost touch the ground.

    One my of students favors the trailing type and I was always afraid for her as she walked up and down the stairs because she was very, very pregnant until just last week and I was so scared that she’d fall because she tripped over it or because someone stepped on the back of it. Thankfully, the majority of our students are Saudi and well versed in the possible dangers. Even our rambunctious teen boys are extremely careful when behind anyone with a trailing abaya (or overly long dress/skirt).

  16. Personally, I would like to see women have a burn the abaya day. I find them and several other Islamic sacks to be both oppressive and hideous. They scream look a walking vagina that needs to be covered. They are a vile covering with a vile and hateful history.

    If you like them fine but don’t expect others to think the dresswear doesn’t send anything but a hateful message to both women as well as men. They have impeded women on more than just escalators.


    They are totally made up and from my understanding it orginates from the hadith on a companion who got his way due to a tiolet issue. He of course engineered it for his liking no one elses. Of course the hadith are a bunch of made up BS that was invented centuries later.

  17. @ AA no need to be rude & disrespectful when making your point, please.

  18. What disrespect? I only conclude that the abaya is a modern garment not suitable for any kind of normal healthy life, pastoral or urban.
    It’s a logical conclusion. Nothing disrespectful.

  19. You know what is ”disrespectful”? To force 50% of the population to wear garment that is:

    * Unpractical for any type of activity
    * Unsafe
    * Ugly
    * Hot

    Making a human person disappear from the landscape, their features and shape hidden, making their personality disappear, making a human being invisible. That is really disrespectful, to the person, to humanity.
    Pointing out these facts is not disrespectful.

  20. It’s simple. Just lift it up a bit before getting on and off an elevator.

    And it’s not impractical. Throughout history women have always worn traditional clothes such as dresses and skirts. How did any women ever get around before pants became the norm?

    And Bigstick, there’s no need to be so rude and outright hateful. I wear an abaya and I love it. Nothing is “tent-like” about it to me. As a women it is my right to choose to not wear tight clothes that show off my curves. It serves it’s purpose for many Muslim women who like it as well. Do not speak try to speak for Muslim women. And btw, please look at modern abaya ok…very stylish and nice.
    Does that look like tents to you?

  21. *escalator

    And this picture is better. They don’t have their abaya really represented on the website:

  22. Amal:

    You can wear whatever you like however until other women are allowed the some right then they are an offense to every person on earth as this dress wear and what it calls women/men is disgusting. Quite frankly, your dresswear is rude and hateful to men/women everywhere as it is soaked in the blood/life of women. In addition it just tells me you agree that you are a mere walking external vagina. As that is what it states to me. It is one of the most hateful and offensive symbols to women in general which screams death, oppression and tells women they are a vagina nothing more and the cloth itself is worth more than the woman.

    However, you are free to wear it but what it means to many is hate and death and opression and it calls women whores nothing more. I look at the dresswear and I am disgusted by the message it sends.

  23. Why are you so obsessed with female genitalia?! Ewww.

    It says nothing of that sort. You are speaking out of bias and ignorance. It’s soaked in blood and the lives of women how?! Listen, no one said Saudi Arabia was the example everyone should follow. And if they do something wrong, that should NOT effect me and my choice to cover or any other Muslim woman’s. Nor should it blind you with hatred toward us.

    I don’t see how wearing a loose fitting robe/dress says “I am nothing more than a vagina”. Don’t push your views onto others. You are the one who sees women wearing abaya that way.

    If I want to cover the shape of my body for modesty, that’s all it is. I don’t want you looking at how small my waist is or hoe big my hips are. That’s all. That is for me to know and the public to never find out. That’s all abaya is. The fact you pin Muslim women to just being sexual objects all the time is offensive. You don’t even know us. You’re just some idiot with a computer and Google who thinks he knows it all. Shut up until you come to the middle east and speak to women yourself. And see for yourself. You have no idea how Muslim women’s lives are. And you obviously have no respect either way. You think how you want to think of us, and your mind is already set. Why are you here, commenting on every post spouting your b.s.?? You do nothing positive for anyone, just insult.
    And u can say all Islam does is insult you (predictable- yawn-), but u can stay pressed because Muslims arent going anywhere. Suck it up.

  24. Amal:

    Actually not I am not, It is from Islam sources. Maybe if you studied a little more into your sources of Islam you would find it as well.

    he Encyclopedia of Islam defines ‘awrah as pudendum, that is “the external genitals, especially of the female. [Latin pudendum (literally) a thing to be ashamed of]”

    “Ali reported the Prophet saying: ‘Women have ten (‘awrat). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten.”

    And according to the following Hadith, women not only have ten ‘awrat, but the woman herself is perceived as ‘awrah :

    “The woman is ‘awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her.

    I am not the one that is obsessed, I am only using MUSLIM/Islam Sources. Whether you chose to acecpt what is written about you by yrour religion is your choice.

  25. So you’re an Islamic scholar now because you can use the internet? I’ve never even heard of that hadith by Ali and no one has ever used it. There are a lot of false hadith out there that people try to pass off as real.

    As for awrah… what’s your point?? Awrah does not equal vagina. It is basically parts that need to be covered. And it changes depending on the situation. If a woman is around strange men, her hair and body shape should be covered. Around other women, it’s from the naval to the knee. Although obviously you won’t find women topless around each other it’s not modest unless absolutely necessary. And around her family (dad brothers etc) it’s from the shoulders to knee.

  26. Amal I love your comment to Bigsheep “so you re an islamic scolar now cz u hv access to the internet” so true he thinks he is so knowlegable but…

  27. Amal:

    Actually your statements state you consider yourself a sex object. By the way modest is a control word that tries to induce shame in which Illicits a response whereby the individual feels shame. It is in the same category as word such as slut and whore. They are all control words meant to put you in a place of shame. Modesty is nothing but a buzz word to shame women with and you buy the crap.

    The people who are the most obsessed are actually people who go on like you. Why should a women have her her hair or body shape covered? Why should she be ashamed of being a female and proud of it. Your religions shames women and dishonors them into an object nothing more.

    “Ali reported the Prophet saying: ‘Women have ten (‘awrat). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten.”[Kanz-el-‘Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy’a ‘Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Dar al-Kotob al-‘Elmeyah, Beirut, Vol II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 65]

    And according to the following Hadith, women not only have ten ‘awrat, but the woman herself is perceived as ‘awrah :

    ” The woman is ‘awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her.”[ Ihy’a ‘Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Dar al-Kotob al-‘Elmeyah, Beirut, Vol II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 65. Reported by Tirmizi as a true and good Ahadith]

    (This Hadith is classed as ‘Sahih’ that is sound or faultless.) So going outside the house is a form of exposure of the ‘awrah; a thing that delights the devil.

    How about this one:

    The followers of Imam Abu Hanifa said, ” The right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually. She on the other hand does not have the right to force him to have sex with her except once [in a lifetime]. But he must, from a religious point of view, have sex with her to protect her from being morally corrupt.”[ Ibid., p. 9]

  28. Mrs. B:

    I prefer historians, scholars/religious leaders tend to try to do mental gymnastics to sell their religion in the most favorable light possible.

    Next I think I am most capable of reading many sources of text regarding Islam and capable of comprehending both the statements and intent.

    But if you like scholars so much then I guess you would agree that the scholar in Saudi on breastfeeding grown men is okay. After all he was a notatable and respected scholar,

    How about clerics?

    Women who dress provocatively and tempt people into promiscuity are to blame for earthquakes, stated by a a leading Iranian hard-line cleric Hojatoleslam Kazim Sadeghi.

    Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation’s most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats. (This was based on women being forcably raped by mulsim men due to their lack of islamic dress style in a western country)

  29. If anyone is a walking vagina, its the women who walk around semi-naked, who invite men to walk into their vgs. Who leave nothing to imagination, who shame themselves by their willingness to allow everyone to look at them.

    A woman who covers herself is being modest, reserving her beauty only to her husband and not the prying eyes of the world like those naked women who prance around everywhere you look. A covered woman respects her womanhood and is proud of herself. She looks beautiful and elegant in her attire. She is respected by people around her. She can work, be a mother, wife, sister, daughter …etc, do multitasking, go up and down escalators, stairs…etc and she is no more than semi-naked woman in all what she does expect she excels in piety, modesty and self-respect. And more than that she is beautiful in her Creator’s view.

    If anyone sees a modest woman any other way just shows the pervert nature of their mind, cannot control his jealousy of her willingness to cover and be above his uncovered ones in terms protecting and valuing their womanhood. Such is his low opinion that he wants to drag modest woman to his level and to the level of those semi-naked woman.

  30. What is your idea of ”naked”?
    Would that be actually ”birthday suit”, or wearing temperature appropriate summer dress?

  31. I get your point though. It must be a nice compensation for being imprisoned in a black bag to feel só superior, self-satified and smug when you are convinced you can buy all that respect and supremacy by putting a black bag around your sinful, fitnah inducing body.

    But, while you wrote a nice piece of copied religious propaganda, why should these religiously and male dominance inspired dress codes be applied to women who have no affiliation to invisible skydaddies, or celestial teapots, or fairies, or other invisible and unprovable imaginary friends? Why should they be forced? Do you think that is reasonable?

  32. You see these guys walking around in comfortable t-shirt and shorts, followed by a woman covered up in polyester on a searing hot day.
    Utter insanity!
    And só unfair!

    I think the men themselves should cover their hairy legs and arms in black polyester too. And cover their beardy faces with black polyester.
    Let them experience for themselves how ”perfectly breathable” that is.

    If the dress rule were the same for men and women, if a letter in Mohammed’s own handwriting was found which states that Allah revealed that men and women had to wear exactly the same clothes then I would give it a year and the imams would come to the conclusion that The Invisible Sky Daddy doesn’t want humans to be suffocated in the traditional black polyester after all….
    And then Allah will suddenly have said all along that it’s ok for men ànd women to walk around in t-shirts and shorts.

    Yes, Man-made religion is that fickle and arbitrary.

    And that is why religious people should never be allowed to tell anybody else anything, make rules or influence children.

  33. AA
    My idea of naked is yes birthday suit and wearing clothes that is good as being naked.

    It does not feel imprisoned to be covered. In fact it feels secure, comfortable and yes superior to those who are semi-naked. I don’t think the body is sinful unless you use or abuse it so.

    My comment was only copied and pasted from the notepad that I wrote it on. Its all mine.

    I don’t understand the rest of your comment but all I can say is that women cover in obedience to our Creator and those who do not want to, can do whatever they want. If a country makes it a rule to cover, who are you to oppose? Any country can have laws and you don’t have to like it.

  34. Bigstick, you don’t even know me k. I’m obsessed? LoL. I am not one of those people who go around saying every woman must cover or she’s a whatever. I defend women to wear what they want! If someone wants to wear booty shorts, that’s her choice why do I care. I have walked around here in Dubai with me in abaya and a friend in shorts and a tank top. My choice is between me and God, I don’t enforce on others. So you can take a seat and stop acting like you know it all.

    Second, does that mean you don’t believe in Modesty at all as a concept. Modesty is practiced all over the world and in many cultures and religions. You cannot outright say it’s shame…because it’s not. It’s just clothing the body to cover up more in a world where being objectified in another way is accepted (showing a lot of skin). Are you denying women are sexually objectified in western society these days?

    And other cultures have ideas what is modest or not. In Korea, exposing your legs is ok but unless you’re a popstar, bare shoulders and cleavage is immodest. Are you going to go to Korea and tell them they are walking vaginas too?

  35. Every culture on earth has an idea of modesty. Even America, or you’d be allowed to walk around the streets bare ass naked all day long. If you hang out in your underwear all day at home does that mean you can just walk outside the door to the grocery store like that? Are you a “sexual object” because you put some pants and a t-shirt on, Bigstick??

    No, because american society dictates going outside in your underwear is indecent. Its even a law…. “public indecency”. It’s the same concept in Islam.

  36. Bigstick your mentality is just as stupid as that breastfed scholar. u see, u and him share a lot in common. u both take bits and pieces of islamic information and conjure up your own crap. in islam it is clearly stated that if a woman breastfeeds a child UNDER 2 years of age than and only than the child becomes her suckling child. does a grown man sound like an infant? so your modus operandi is taking bits and piecrs of islamic info (from hate sites at that) then advocate your lunacy. oh, also modesty is upheld by people with moral values..maybe not u.

  37. The abaya isn’t the issue it’s whether the person has the choice to wear it or not. If you are someone who doesn’t have to wear it- I don’t see how you can know what it means to those who do. It means many different things depending on the person and situation.

    Modesty is not about shame. It is more to do with being humble or just being private. Different people are different about these things.

  38. What is morality?
    Morality is the distinction between good and bad. To cause harm is bad
    Something which causes no identifiable harm cannot be classed as immoral. Walking around naked (really naked) causes no harm to anybody so cannot be considered immoral.

    Forcing 50% of population to don a garment which is,

    * Unpractical for any type of activity
    * Unsafe
    * Ugly
    * Hot
    * detrimental to health

    is immoral.
    The garment itself is immoral because it causes harm.

    The fact that there are some women who support these abusive and suppressive garments does not make the garments moral, it only shows that the women are comprehensively enslaved and indoctrinated. Choosing to wear one yourself, because you have been comprehensively indoctrinated is only causing harm to yourself, so have at it.
    But: the people who made up the rules, who made up the idea that the invisible sky daddy insists on humans with a vagina to wear them, and then indoctrinating everybody to this idea, are very immoral. Mothers and fathers who tell their daughters they have to veil are committing an immoral act.
    Forcing women into veiling is immoral because it causes harm on many different levels.

  39. I never said I condoned forcing women to wear abaya or even hijab. I believe women should have the choice always. Bigstick was saying any woman who wears one whether by choice or whatever is a “walking vagina”. That’s what I was addressing. Not defending Saudi law. And if you think I am indoctrinated or immoral for wearing one, good for you. I will keep wearing it and you can keep being bitter. Bye

  40. That is why morality is not and should not be based on your very limited knowledge AA. morality is set by God as the All Wise Creator. if we based our morality on our own whims then there would mayhem.for the Nazis,it is acceptable to be murderous racist, for the Ancient Mayans it was morally acceptable to be sacrificed for rain, some people even morally accepts suicide and murder. according to your morals it is ok to be naked and its even morally acceptable for you to condemn other people’s beliefs and religion. That is why Allah’s morality code is way way way and of course superior than your morality as Allah clearly forbids mocking other religion and Allah clearly is more k.owlegable as He is All Knowing. Modesty is part and parcel of Islam not just in clothing but in behavior, speech, thinking and don’t restrict modesty to only wearing open or close but by being humble, not performing namimah(gossips), fitnah etc. I think the main reason why you and Bigstick and etc are always
    mocking Muslim women’s hijab is you fear the progessions we are making in the world, the changes and impact. we are making! You are afraid that our hijab is becoming accepted and favored as it goes very much against your feeling that your culture and ideas are far superior than our hijab and. way. of lifep But you can protest all you want, whine on the internet all you please, sit behind your computer screen mocking us like you do but guess what? we are not taking off our hijab! more and more hijabis are making it high up in the world. Educated young women, doctors, CEOs, wives of Presidents and Kings, mothers, converts fashion designers, even news reporters and newscasters

  41. I would never willingly Wear an abaya or ask my child do so but I don’t really care if someone else wants to.. I just ask that they don’t trail dirt in or judge those not wearing it.
    To me a piece f clothing does not Make anyone more moral or pious , or lack of abaya des mt make one a slut.
    It’s all what you are comfortable with.

  42. Amal:

    It is not my assessment that women are sex organs (awrah) but it is according to Islam and its source material. It is also the actions of almost all Islamic countries who follow Sharia. What I don’t like about the dresswear is what is represents and what it calls women and deems them to be.

    Mrs. B:

    Your progress is in spite of Islam and Sharia. In most countries that institute Islam women start going backwards in time and opportunity.

    Modesty is a term used to control nothing more in action, thought and body. It is meant to demean a person. Now you might believe that modesty is something noble but I for one don’t it is a construct to intimidate, harass or belittle.

    Next apparently you have not read the passages in both the Bible/Koran that encourage violence, child rape, murder etc.

    Now here is something interest first you accuse me of being a scholar but when I point out your scholars and clerics (who were notable and respected in the field by muslims and scholarly colleagues) you then claim I am making something up. I am not the one that made the claim on women and breastfeeding but a notable and well respected scholar in Saudi did, in addition a notable and well respect Islamic cleric made the statement of women being uncovered meat. These are YOUR ISLAMIC clerics/scholars NOT MINE and they were quite respected by their peers at the time of these statements. I am also aware of the 2 year old limitation on breastfeeding, amazing though YOUR (ISLAMIC) SCHOLAR was NOT.

    Last thing your creator is nothing more than a man with ink and paper. Allah is a fairytale who is limited in scope and is obsessed with sex for even the heaven is a brothel. You can keep the great big sex house in the sky and I find Allah’s morals to be that of a tribal heathen aka: alledged rapist, murdering, conartist Mohammad.


    I tend to think you have this type of mentality.

  43. Mrs B. The holy books of the Judeo/Christian/muslim religions are completely out of date as far as morality goes.
    You know that in your heart. That’s why you have to cherry-pick searching for the bits which concur with your own sense of morality.
    Very few modern humans today think God’s morality is acceptable, Stuff which is commanded or prescribed by God in these books like:
    *Stonings for stupid ”crimes” like picking up sticks on the sabbath, women who are suspected of ”adultery” (adultery harms nobody so cannot be claased as immoral)
    *the murdering of children
    *ripping open the bellies of pregnant women
    *raping female captives and degrading them into sex-slaves
    And the list goes on and on.

    I am sure some people will consider this list of actions condoned by the Jewish wargod Jehova/God/Allah ”insulting” and ”disrespectful” and good for you. You are a lot better and more moral than the bronze age thugs who made up the Torah/Bible/Quran?hadith.
    These obsolete religions were set up by people who were far less advanced than we are and it shows. I know a lot of nice people who are believers and they have to double up doing intellectual acrobatics to reconcile their superior morals to the inferior morals of religion. Or they just ignore them, or they make up excuses like context, different times, etc.

    If you step back and see these backwards religions for what they are you stop believing. So I understand many people don’t even dare to do so.

    Coming back to the Jewish custom of veiling and abaya’s, it is unnatural for people to cover themselves up, it is unhealthy. I am sure some women get a kick out of feeling superior and smug out of veiling so they do get some pleasure out of it, so go ahead and enjoy. But don’t spurt your nonsense to other people. And don’t think many women are not forced and threatened to the point of death into this scurrilous men-invented oppression.

    Another undesirable effect veiling has on men we can see in countries like Saudi Arabia; it makes them absolutely obsessed with sex and women, constantly harrassing every women they can get at, searching the internet for deviant porn, etc. We see it by the men who comment on this forum, always talking about sex, rape, sex with animals, etc. Almost every thread it comes up.
    Abayas are not only unhealthy for the body, they are unhealthy for the mind. They cause harm and therefore are immoral.

  44. It’s ok for me to condemn other people’s religion because these religions are immoral and cause harm, they are evil.
    It’s not only ok, I consider it my duty to fight theocracy.
    This short video puts it perfectly, better than I can, by somebody who was a better fighter than I am.
    Please watch in and try to understand.

  45. Bigstick said:
    “Modesty is a term used to control nothing more in action, thought and body. It is meant to demean a person. Now you might believe that modesty is something noble but I for one don’t it is a construct to intimidate, harass or belittle.”

    What you may not know is that modesty in Islam is one of the principles of faith. It is not only shown in dress but it is decency in how you dress, speak, attitude and other manners of living. It has to do with shyness and doing away with vanity and showing off. Modesty is kind of shield that protects humans from indulging into obsecen behaviour.

    Our prophet (saas) has said “Modesty is a part of the teachings of the previous prophets, and anyone who lacks it may do whatever he likes.”

    What separated you from animals is the sense of modesty. If modesty is demeaning you or belittling you then it is really very, very sad. There is no difference between you and the animals. But then what is expected from pig-eaters. There is no shame or decency.

    “I am sure some women get a kick out of feeling superior and smug out of veiling so they do get some pleasure out of it, so go ahead and enjoy. But don’t spurt your nonsense to other people.”

    I can say the same for you. If you have no sense of modesty and decency, go ahead, do what you want but don’t puke your hatred for decency on others.

    As Mrs B. rightly said, from how some people write here, it is apparent there is some sense of envy. You see the beautiful modesty displayed by sincere Muslim women and you cannot bear it and at the same time, you cannot copy it for fear of appearing weak in the eyes of your peers. This is how it looks from from your comments.

  46. Sarah, don’t put ”modesty” and ”religion” in the same sentence, religion is arrogance disguised as humility.

  47. Now take a look at these few samplings from the so-called pious and devout muslims on this forum:

    “Amal I love your comment to Bigsheep ….”

    “Eidul Adha has passed but there seem to be a BigSheep still loose here, baaa-ing all over the topic …”

    “But then what is expected from pig-eaters …”

    Here is a quote for the millenniums which captures the mindset of these self-proclaimed pious and religious folks:

    People never do evil (or speak evil) so completely and cheerfully as when they do it for religious conviction — Blaise Pascal

    But then again these same pious and devout muslims have been Frozen In Time, since 610 AD …

  48. AA : Sorry but modesty is part of faith in Islam. You are free to do what you want.

    Louise: Why do you take offence to “pig-eaters”? Is it a false statement? Isn’t being “pious and religious” about speaking the truth? Take it easy. 🙂

  49. Don’t lie Sarah, this wasn’t meant literally, it was clearly meant in a very derogative manner. Maybe being polite and truthful is not part of the modesty of Islam?
    Do you consider yourself a very good Muslim? I mean besides being so very superior because you hide your disgusting sinful person, do you think your personality as you display it here is the prime example of a good Muslim?
    Because that would explain a lot.

  50. I am talking about the ”pig-eater”…
    Although maybe you should disregard my last comment, I wouldn’t want for you to become careful about expressing your true personality, and the real islam here. i prefer to know exactly what disgusting things go on in other people’s minds. Makes it so much easier to place them.

  51. AA:
    Don’t be too judgemental. You don’t know me so don’t judge me.

    I try to be a good Muslim and strive to be better always. Only my Creator can judge me, not you or anyone else. If a better Muslim corrects my errors or reminds me of my shortcomings in matters of deen, I will be grateful to him/her.

    I do not have to hide anything from you. Why should I? And I do believe pig-eaters become shameless as the animal. That is my observation and opinion. I am allowed that.

    Bottom line is that you are pig-eaters. There is no lie in that, is there? So why take offense unless you know better …

    You see, AA, you seek filth in peoples’ minds maybe because you can relate to that or maybe it gives you pleasure in smearing the imagined filth all around. I don’t know. Please note that not everyone is that way.

    AA, be nice, it doesn’t hurt, you know. 🙂

  52. @sarah,

    Sorry. Pure unadultered vegetarian here :-). Nothing with a face that bleeds passes past my door ….
    if you call pork eaters bad , What would I have o call the meat eaters :-).
    And no eating ometing doesn’t make you take the h characteristics o f that. Else I’d be green. …spinach is eaten daily @our place

  53. Sarah:

    As usual you give me a lot to work with:

    “What you may not know is that modesty in Islam is one of the principles of faith. It is not only shown in dress but it is decency in how you dress, speak, attitude and other manners of living. It has to do with shyness and doing away with vanity and showing off. Modesty is kind of shield that protects humans from indulging into obsecen behaviour.”

    Okay, I will go slowwwwwww and use little words…….I ,,,,, have …..said……that …..religion…. uses……modesty …. to …..control…people. Stated again, Religion………plus …………modesty…….equal ………..bad. In other words yes I know that modesty is a tenant/principle of faith. Can we all say duh now. The rest of what you go on about is false propaganda which is continuously debunked by the followers of religion and of course the text themselves. Slave sex anyone, sell daughter off, kill that non-religious person anyone?

    Our prophet (saas) has said “Modesty is a part of the teachings of the previous prophets, and anyone who lacks it may do whatever he likes.’”

    Okay, so your prophet raped women, created war, had pregnant women torn apart, enslaved people, had sex with a plethoria of women including slaves, broke his own (sorry allah’s law), could remember his shit and made new stuff up to ensure pillage, booty and loot but somehow those lacking in modesty do whatever (he) likes?

    I have to admit it is hard to argue with individuals such as yourself as you have extreme experience in the lack of critical skills and linear thought processes. I have heard people like you drag others down to their level and then beat them with experience.

    “What separated you from animals is the sense of modesty. If modesty is demeaning you or belittling you then it is really very, very sad. There is no difference between you and the animals.”

    No, modesty has never seperated mankind from the animal kingdom. What has seperated mankind is the ability to have opposable thumbs, thinking capacity, reasoning capacity, critical skills, spoken and written language, ability to amass information and to protect to a degree generations of information and being erect or upright. Modest has done nothing for mankind nor has religion, they have both de-evolved man to a lower than an animal. Apparently, the study on conservatives having lower IQ’s didn’t make it to your cave dwelling.

    “But then what is expected from pig-eaters. There is no shame or decency.”

    Not sure how pig eating fits in with decency or shame; however, I prefer wild game as it is often heathier such as moose, deer, elk, fish, quail, etc. I am not a pig product fan as it often has too much salt. I prefer wild game – especially the type I shoot and skin, organic fruits and veggies and I am really big on juicing.

    Next to answer question on:

    Isn’t being “pious and religious” about speaking the truth?

    The answer is no and the text of all Abrahamic religious support telling lies. Look it up it is in your text.

  54. “And no eating ometing doesn’t make you take the h characteristics o f that. Else I’d be green. …”

    But Radha, look at your avatar. You look a shade of green me thinks. Which makes Sarah’s theory ingenious 🙂

  55. @Bigstick,

    “Not sure how pig eating fits in with decency or shame;”

    Just for your info. In come Muslim circles, the scientific theory that eating pig can impact a person’s behavior. The theory goes like this:

    Eating pig’s meat dulls a person’s sense of jealousy and shame. Hence, you will not care if your wives, sisters, mother or any other women under your control, dresses immodestly and/or sleep with other men.

    This theory has been peer reviewed and now is a standard for the education people like Sarah receive.

  56. Radha,
    I am veggie too though I love fish.

    You said : “if you call pork eaters bad…”
    No I am not saying they are bad. There are many pig-eaters who are good. However, what I am saying is that they lack shame and modesty.

    I have a friend who drinks carrot juice daily for breakfast and she has pale orange hands. Well, I am not talking about the colors here or pig-eaters would be pink (or whatever color pigs are). 🙂

    You being in medical field might know that pork is harmful to the health. And what I believe is that what is hameful for the body is also harmful for the soul. Therefore comsuming pork reduces shame and modesty in a person.

    By the way isn’t this post about escalators and abaya?

    The “islam” you are talking about is alien to me. You remind me of Jay who was used to post like a broken-record here.

  57. @Sarah, where ever did you hail from? Wow, haven’t heard such gibberish in a while. Why label people pig-eaters? What makes you think you’re better than anybody for that matter? Because you’re Muslimah? Well guess what? So am I & I don’t eat red meat either. But never do I walk around thinking anybody is below me because of that. No one is better than me either.
    Is pork more harmful than eating unhealthy food like many do in the Middle East, US etc?

  58. MoQ:

    Thanks for the insight. 🙂


    Thank you for the compliment. 🙂 Jay has exhibited that he is a caring individual, believes women to be equals who should not be shamed or called external sex organs (neither should men), he believes in equality and the protection of everyone’s rights. In addition, he is not fun of harmful fairytales.

  59. fun should be fond

  60. It is clear from this thread here that Sarah is young, immature and has no business on this forum.

    Sarah, you are doing a great disservice to your deen dear by speaking ignorantly, it’s best to keep quite now until you can learn to have dialogue logically and respectfully.

  61. Rahma,
    I don’t dare see myself above others. That equates to pride.

    I have said my observations and opinions which I share with many others, by the way. You do not have to agree with it. My opinion does not make me above or below others, its just me. What if I call people pig-eaters? Is there something offensive about it? Is it not a fact? I am suprised why you find it so bad. Is it okay for them to label Muslims as towel-head or garbage bags, which is meant to insult while I only stated a fact about them being pig-eaters?

    Yes, fyi, pig is unhealthy.

    And Muslim Woman, you do not get to say who has business on this forum.

    My dear, disservice to our deen is when we do not forbid the bad and encourge the right, when we sit aorund doing nothing while others make a mince meat of our beautiful deen, when we do not hold the banner up high. I am not doing disserivce to our deen when I state a fact . Get your priorities right, my dear.

    You do not know me, sis, enough to judge me. By the way, its funny you call me ignorant. It appears that muslims are afraid to voice the truth in this blog. Why?

  62. Muslim Woman, tell me who shows arrogance or ignorance by these statement in this thread:

    “Yes best to make sure that you are never without the black “awrah” bag.”

    “Allah didn’t know there were going to be moving escalators I suppose…”

    ” They scream look a walking vagina that needs to be covered. They are a vile covering with a vile and hateful history”

    ” Quite frankly, your dresswear is rude and hateful to men/women everywhere as it is soaked in the blood/life of women.”

    … and many more.

    Tell me, my dear Muslim Woman, honestly and truthfully who has to “learn to have dialogue logically and respectfully”.

    Tell me again honestly and truthfully, who is doing disservice – the one who sits there saying nothing but speaking against others who do and calling them ignorant or the one who tries to defend the deen? The answer is clear if you can only realise it.

  63. I would like to see the peer reviewed research which proves that people who eat pork loose their modesty, and will to control their property.
    Because I think it’s flawed.

    Because I do not like to eat pigs, as pigs are very cute, extremely intelligent creatures and I do not think we should eat intelligent friendly nice animals.

    However, I still do not care at all if my husband were to walk around without a shirt. (He is super hot) And so if other women were to look at him and think ”I would really like to sass that hoopy frood” I feel no desire to control him or what he wears…
    So what could be the reason since I don’t eat pork???

  64. “You being in medical field might know that pork is harmful to the health.”

    Medically speaking pig meat (none fatty areas) is actually less harmful than other red meats like beef. Have you ever heard the phrase “Pork is the other white meat”

    “And what I believe is that what is hameful for the body is also harmful for the soul. Therefore consuming pork reduces shame and modesty in a person.”

    I love that empirical analysis to support the final conclusion. She even used “Therefore”. I think Sarah could add a “Thus” and a “Consequently” to her vocabulary and we will have a legitimate scientists.

  65. AA:

    I think that empirical evidence is the same as Saudi puts out on their findings that women will lose their virginity if allowed to drive.

  66. Amal:

    No, because american society dictates going outside in your underwear is indecent. Its even a law…. “public indecency”. It’s the same concept in Islam.

    There is no State in the US were it is illegal to wear underwear outdoors. In San Francisco you can be nude in public. In many cities in the US women can be topless. There are actually women who go topless in New York City and it is legal. Technologically as a woman you can wear a pasty on the aerola and a brazlian swim bottom and be prefectly legal in every state in the US while in public. There are some women who are confortable with this and there are others who perfer to cover a great deal more. It is a level of conform, however the coverings have no dogma attached to them that calls women, “awrah” and divinely codifies the dresswear and supressive intent.

  67. @Sarah, I can guarantee you that you are no way near as proud as I am. No way! Although I like to make my point known, I never come down to anybody I deem unworthy’s level, never. If you’ve been reading this blog you know Bigstick1, AA & a couple of others like to go on & on about the same ol’ stuff. Nothing new there. Frankly, I won’t acknowledge certain behavior. It won’t change who I am & what I believe in.
    People burning things, killing others & acting up never is by no means a good representation of Islam. Only helps spread the ignorance about our beautiful religion & Prophet SAWS.

  68. Rahma,
    Well I can’t help it, you can’t blame me that nothing changes. Forcing 50% of humanity to wear the black bags because of some ancient Jewish custom remains idiotic. Nothing has changed about that.
    The power games of man-made bronze-age religions remain immoral and they keep causing harm, nothing’s changed there…
    Sarah’s incapability of engaging in a discussion, instead she immediately goes to the personal insults, is one of the many grounds necause of which I can only come to the conclusion that the Judeo/Christian/Islamic faith has nothing worthwhile to offer.

    Your comment is equally senseless.
    You and Sarah cannot enter in a discussion because your religion doesn’t give you any valid arguments to oppose rational conclusions. QED.
    You are right, that hasn’t changed.

  69. @Bigstick,
    Nudity has been banned in SF and you are not even allowed to sunbathe topless on most public beaches- for example in Los Angeles County (where I understand their are MANY beaches) it is illegal to show your breasts in public even on the beach. I know that was also the case in Florida a few years ago- though possibly that has changed.

    In terms of their being no “shame” attached to these things in the states- you clearly don’t follow the issue of breastfeeding in public and all the crap women stateside sometimes get put through, You are not representing the US accurately in terms of factual legalities or attitudes.

  70. “instead she immediately goes to the personal insults”

    OMG, this really cracked me up and I can’t stop laughing. Calling someone a pig-eater is a “personal insult” now?
    I eat fish and I am fish-eater – is that an insult too? How ridiculous can it get! And if you think “pig-eater” is an insult, that means you think PIG is bad enough for it to be an insult. Didn’t you say you love those cute animals and they are extremely intelligent – so it really should be a compliment! 🙂

    By the way, to all those people who got insulted by the term pig-eater, I apologize although it is nothing compared to what you people use to insult Muslims.

  71. Speaking of pig-eaters you should all try and see the movie ‘The Gaza Pig’. It is in Arabic and Hebrew and covers the ‘pig’ issue in a very, very funny way. It is also a bit sad and brings in the very sad relations between the two countries.

    San Francisco barely passed the ‘no nudity’ law 6 to 5. It could change back. Personally I don’t want to see a bunch of older sagging bodies walking around nude but it’s not because of prudishness! LOL!!!

  72. @Sarah,
    You used the term “pig-eater” as an insult. That is clear to anyone reading this thread, and nothing you can say afterward is going to convince anyone otherwise. But you are correct. It shouldn’t be.

  73. Sarah, when I argue against (among others) your religion and ideology you are wrong to take it as a personal insult. A statement pointing out that your ideology is wrong can be debated, but not be taken as a personal insult.
    I am talking about abusing women. Forcing women, by force or ideology to wear abayas is wrong.
    An example of a personal insult would be something like: ”Sarah is an idiot”.
    Ooops, some people might think that is not a good example because it could be a factual statement…

    Everybody knows what you meant with ”Pig-eater”. You know it too, that’s why you are trying só hard to make out is wasn’t.
    You meant it exactly how Moq explained it.

  74. Sandy:

    Sandy I will address this statement of yours.:

    Nudity has been banned in SF and you are not even allowed to sunbathe topless on most public beaches- for example in Los Angeles County (where I understand their are MANY beaches) it is illegal to show your breasts in public even on the beach. I know that was also the case in Florida a few years ago- though possibly that has changed.

    In terms of their being no “shame” attached to these things in the states- you clearly don’t follow the issue of breastfeeding in public and all the crap women stateside sometimes get put through, You are not representing the US accurately in terms of factual legalities or attitudes I would ask where have I in my statement provided you with misleading informaiton.

    Actually I am representing it in accurate terms legally. Note I state legally. It is generally the conservatives and religious who create problems with go against nature and insert their form of violene and intimidation as they are rather good at violence, discrimination and intimidation.

    First, it is legal until February 2013 to be nude in San Francisco and a federal law suit has been file regarding the ruling which was 6 to 5. Next nudity was not completely outlawed, however, it will be limited unless the law is overturned.

    There are a number of nude beaches throughout the United States and it the federal and states have laws protecting women breastfeeding.

    Here is a website that has 103 in the United States.

    Now there have been incidents where an individuals was stopped from breastfeeding but guess what that person/company who stopped them paid dearly in the form of a legal settlement. In addition they often spark a firestorm of breastfeeeding women who come out in droves to breastfeed in from of the offending party. I have actually seen it happen and the law was on their side. Remember I am a retire police officer and I also dealt with many legal issues while working for a State Legislative Body to include doing research into this area. Next there are numerous areas that are backwards and conservative in nature in the US such as the Bible Belt who like to push their discriminatory and intimidating hate ideology but the law is on the side of the mothers. So if the mother is being intimidated by individuals they can have them arrested or have a law suit file against them. Should police arrest them instead they will have one hell of a lawsuit. It is becoming far more common for women to breastfeed and if I see anyone harass a woman breastfeeding their kid I will have words with the dimwit to incude spouting off the laws to him/her then providing them with information on what type of lawsuits they can face and I will help them woman in her suit against the offending party.

    See my next entry for the second website on States/cities.

    Now I would like you to tell me how I did this based upon my extraction From Amal and my answer below.
    In terms of their being no “shame” attached to these things in the states- you clearly don’t follow the issue of breastfeeding in public and all the crap women stateside sometimes get put through, You are not representing the US accurately in terms of factual legalities or attitudes I would ask where have I in my statement provided you with misleading informaiton.

    Extraction from Amal:

    “No, because american society dictates going outside in your underwear is indecent. Its even a law…. “public indecency”. It’s the same concept in Islam.”

    My Answer:

    “There is no State in the US were it is illegal to wear underwear outdoors. In San Francisco you can be nude in public. In many cities in the US women can be topless. There are actually women who go topless in New York City and it is legal. Technologically as a woman you can wear a pasty on the aerola and a brazlian swim bottom and be prefectly legal in every state in the US while in public. There are some women who are confortable with this and there are others who perfer to cover a great deal more. It is a level of conform, however the coverings have no dogma attached to them that calls women, “awrah” and divinely codifies the dresswear and supressive intent.”

    Your comments are much too long. Please try to keep them short and terse, or we will have to edit them.

  75. Sandy:

    Here is where it is legal to go topless:

  76. Sadly Bigstick- I can’t see your link or many others I tried when researching this because I probably can’t handle these websites and so they are banned. Anyway- I do think you are overstating how acceptable nudity is in the states. Legal and otherwise-but that is my opinion. I was only able to pinpoint the LA County Beach laws. And I remember European women being issued citations in Florida for topless sunbathing,

  77. Sandy:

    The gotopless site shows a map of the states that have no laws against women who can go topless.

    It is broken down this way:

    The green colored states are those where top freedom is in effect. (32 States in the US)
    The orange colored ones have amibiguous state laws on the matter. (15 States) – Florida is by the way one of these states.
    The red colored ones are the ones where the mere showing of the female breast in public is illegal according to state law. ( 3 States)

    No sure why you cannot handle these sites. Is it due to censorship or some other reason?

  78. Bigstick, it’s sad you didn’t get Sandy’s joke. And you should know by now that Sandy is in SA where they even block sites about ”Breast cancer” because they contain the word ”breast”.
    I have been travelling a lot to America and I had the impression that Americans are very conservative about dress.
    Definitely not a topless paradise.
    If that could be called paradise because seeing the average western, industrialized junkfood eating people naked would not be a pleasurable experience.

  79. AA:

    As I have stated in the past, the United States is the most religious western country (to its detriment) currently. However there are a number of areas that allow for nudity and there are areas were nudity or toplessness are not an issue. However, there are other areas this is allowed, as can be seen by the large number of states that allow toplessness;however, few people actually understand what laws exists on this topic and what is allowed. Many people simply don’t know that there are laws that allow this and that includes law enforcement officers who will arrest and then later find out that they were wrong. I have been to areas that are both conservative as well as liberal. In addition, I have spoken with people who are under the assumption that being nude or topless is against the law when it is not; so they simply refrain from this activity. Again I emphasis what is allowed by law and what is protected by law.

    You however have areas that do have large populations of the religious right such as Tenessesse or Utah or Mississippi and these are typically states that you visit but just don’t live in as they are depressive (there is actual studies that show conservative religious states have more depressed individuals).

    Hope that helps.

  80. AA:

    Hey if your interested in nudity there are numerous areas that support it in the US. Apparently you haven’t really explored the naturalist segment. Really you should do some research and just visit an area or two.

    🙂 Enjoy.

    I re-read Sandy’s statement and got it.

  81. Sandy,
    I used pig-eater only to make a point and not to insult – just to make a point. Just to show that shamlessness comes from that according to me and many others. Maybe the way I used it looks like it was meant as an insult and I did apologize for that already. So why bring it up again? And yes it should not be an insult because it is a fact.

    Whay you argue against religion is not an insult but your choice of words which are meant to be an insult are personal insults because for many people, religion is very personal. On the other hand if I say you are a pig-eater, it should not be an insult (unless you think, pigs are bad enough to be an insult) because you (any you) eat pig so you are pig-eater – a fact. Nothing insulting about that.

    Yes I agree with you about personal attacks. But I would not stoop down so low to your level to explain that. You know what kind of pople would do that. 🙂

    And I can see that you are dragging this seeing that you got encouragement from Sandy. This is your way.


  82. Sarah:

    Get over it already. I get personally attacked all day and I can dole them out as well. Religion is a dogma that was written by men who long ago believed that burying their children under buildings would protect it from forces or human sacrifices would ward off the next volcano or earthquake.

    Quite frankly we are all better off without religion today than in the heyday as it allowed for slavery, institutionalization of sexism, homophobia, child abuse, human sarcrifices, torture, etc.

    I ask you do you really believe that religion affords you more rights than you would get with a securalist society? If so explain it.

    Next really it is not up to me to prove your God doesn’t exist, it is actually a requirement that you prove your God exists and that should be done without murder, force or censorship. So prove your God exists and remember the Quran is not proof in itself it is just a book.

  83. Bigstick:
    “Get over it already.”
    Tell that to AA why me?

    ” it is not up to me to prove your God doesn’t exist”
    I did not ask you to do that or anything else.

  84. Sarah you said,
    “I used pig-eater only to make a point and not to insult – just to make a point. Just to show that shamlessness comes from that according to me and many others. ”

    Are saying that eating pig makes people shameless? Am I understanding you correctly? And please what do you mean by “shameless”?

  85. Yes, Sandy, that is what I mean (my opinion shared by others). By shameless I mean the sense to not feel any shyness by being semi-naked. Not feeling awkward, not honoring one’s body, lack of feeling of embarrasment. You know generally not having shame.

  86. Is there any scientific evidence of any kind that leads you to believe eating pork products makes someone less shy about their body? Or even any other kind of evidence? I know many people -for example some types of Christians that are very shy about how much skin they show- and there are Muslims who don’t mind showing it all.

    Also, “shame” generally is about more than just how much skin you show. People feel shame over bad behavior. And I’ve seen many “Muslims” who seem to have very little and many Atheists who are very ethical and feel genuinely “shamed” when they do what they know they shouldn’t.

    So perhaps this is why you comments came across as insulting.

  87. @Sandy,

    Sarah does not have to rely on science. She was told this theory all her life (see my earlier comment) and she believes it. She was also were told, that there are some study’s out there from unknown sources which proof that pig meat is medically bad for you. She believes that too. As long as those things fit into a context to support her ancient book, she will believe them. No questioning or research on her part is required.

    Note, Sarah has never been ashamed of how foolish she looks here. Perhaps she should look into her dietary habits for clues 😉

  88. @Moq-
    I thought you were making it up 🙂
    I’ve never come across this belief in all my time here. And I’m OK with that 🙂
    And really- you DON’T need this context to support the ancient book. In fact I don’t think it helps at all.

  89. Bigstick scares me, he seems obsessed with topless women. but that comes from a person who equates awrah to vaginas.

    Shocking, Sarah got attacked for making a remark about pig eaters but the rest of the more obscene people who insults God gets unreprimand. lovely priority n I love how one coward hides under a name of Muslim Lady (hardly believable) to attack Sarah,not.

  90. MoQ,

    Great to see you back! Miss your presence here …

  91. .For anyone who likens himself to be an intelligent science loving person but are not really so, here are among the plenty of reasons why pig eating is not only haram but super harmful to our health. do take note moq. A pig is a real garbage gut. It will eat anything including urine, excrement, dirt, decaying animal flesh, maggots, or decaying vegetables. They will even eat the cancerous growths off other pigs or animals.
     The meat and fat of a pig absorbs toxins like a sponge. Their meat can be 30 times more toxic than beef or venison.
     When eating beef or venison, it takes 8 to 9 hours to digest the meat so what little toxins are in the meat are slowly put into our system and can be filtered by the liver. But when pork is eaten, it takes only 4 hours to digest the meat. We thus get a much higher level of toxins within a shorter time.
     Unlike other mammals, a pig does not sweat or perspire. Perspiration is a means by which toxins are removed from the body. Since a pig does not sweat, the toxins remain within its body and in the meat.
     Pigs and swine are so poisonous that you can hardly kill them with strychnine or other poisons.
     Farmers will often pen up pigs within a rattlesnake nest because the pigs will eat the snakes, and if bitten they will not be harmed by the venom.
     When a pig is butchered, worms and insects take to its flesh sooner and faster than to other animal’s flesh. In a few days the swine flesh is full of worms.
     Swine and pigs have over a dozen parasites within them, such as tapeworms, flukes, worms, and trichinae. There is no safe temperature at which pork can be cooked to ensure that all these parasites, their cysts,and eggs will be killed.
     Pig meat has twice as much fat as beef. A 3 oz T bone steak contains 8.5 grams of fat; a 3 oz pork chop contains 18 grams of fat. A 3 oz beef rib has 11.1 grams of fat; a 3 oz pork spare rib has 23.2 grams of fat.
     Cows have a complex digestive system, having four stomachs. It thus takes over 24 hours to digest their vegetarian diet causing its food to be purified of toxins. In contrast, the swine’s one stomach takes only about 4 hours to digest its foul diet, turning its toxic food into flesh.
     The swine carries about 30 diseases which can be easily passed to humans. This is why God commanded that we are not even to touch their carcase (Leviticus 11:8).
     The trichinae worm of the swine is microscopically small, and once ingested can lodge itself in our intestines, muscles, spinal cord or the brain. This results in the disease trichinosis. The symptoms are sometimes lacking, but when present they are mistaken for other diseases, such as typhoid, arthritis, rheumatism, gastritis, MS, meningitis, gall bladder trouble, or acute alcoholism.
     The pig is so poisonous and filthy, that nature had to prepare him a sewer line or canal running down each leg with an outlet in the bottom of the foot. Out of this hole oozes pus and filth his body cannot pass into its system fast enough. Some of this pus gets into the meat of the pig.
    And there has been scientific reasearch that links lack of shame with pig eating. like it or not.

  92. Bigstick mde a joke about Jay’s nature. despite his Lies and attacks on Islam, more are embracing Islam. Yes i hear Bigstick rummaging somewhere about how Islamic Laws and apostates but tell me which Islamic Law exists in USA and Europe? There are daily reverts to Islam all over Europe and USA so carry on lying about Islam. its ok because it doesn’t affect us Muslims, in fact you doing is a favor by making us read up more about our religion and becoming closer to it and not to mention bring more ppl to Islam.

  93. @mrsB,

    You crack me up. .You copy all of that and paste it. A quick google search of one of the sentences showed a number of religious websites, blogs, etc. with the same exact text.

    You need a simple education about how science works and what constitutes evidence. Copying long text from religious sites, does not advance your argument that Pig meat is more harmful than beef as an example.

    By the way there is no meat that can be completely
    clear of parasites or harmful bacteria. All meats have to be fully cooked to be safe. However, beef certainly has more potential for harm.

    Get back with me when you can site a peer review study, not your online copy and paste gibberish.

    @X-Moozlum, thanks. I have been busy lately, but things are slowing down for the holiday season. I hope I can comment more often.

  94. First of all Mrs. B, thanks. We need to stick together and speak the truth and not be afraid of it, nor even be ashamed of it. Truth stands out clear from error.

    I have repeated many times that this is my observtions and opinion and I did mention that there are many nice pig-eaters. You may scroll up and check it out to make sure. It is not a belief as you are saying.

    I am not basing my observation on any scientific evidence and I cannot tell you if there is one. However it was during my travels to a certain country that I first noticed pigs. I noticed how shameless their behaviors were. They were eating excreta and all kinds of filthy stuff! I did some research on pigs after finding their behavior so ewww!. It is not as MoQ says that I was taught this and made to believe it. Anway my research made be accept what I am saying. You do not have to believe my opinion. You can make your own research.

    Mrs. B’s research said that they are one of the filthiest animals and carry lot of diseases. I suggest you do the same excellent work she did. Maybe it will become clear to you. Peace to you.

  95. Ah, so pigs are shameless, they walk around without abaya, while cows are modest and go fully abaya’d and veiled.

    This is hilarious, so if you eat an animal you become like the animal, you take over the aspects of the animal you’ve eaten.
    We are dropping below medieval now, we are going stone age! That’s exactly the stone age belief which most cannibalism is based on: By eating your enemies, or beloved relatives you will acquire their strength and power. So by this reasoning Muslims should eat especially modest women and pious men so they will become more modest and pious…
    Bon appetit!

  96. @Sandy,

    Of course Sarah will continue arguing these are her observations. However, it is part of some of the filth Muslim Scholars spew out and the naive followers just take it as facts.

    Check this paper by Dr. Zakir Naik (a very influential Indian Muslim Speaker)

    To spare yourself the reading of the mindless gibberish, scroll to page 27 to find this nugget:

    “6. Pig is the most shameless animal
    The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say “you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.” If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.”

    What is sad is this man also has a degree in medicine.

  97. MoQ

    I can’t wait for the study that says our eating meat is what causes humans to have sex because animals do it. 😈

    Mrs. B:

    It is hard to say how many actually are converting or who are Muslims as people are forced to lie about their affiliations due to societies/religious intimidation and apostates can face being killed, tortured, raped, etc. in the world. Next, studies show that 3 out of 4 converts leave Islam after three years in western countries in addition the highest segment of converts are from the prison system within the US or guilliable women who convert for the hope of a husband who pressures them to become muslims only to find their dream has turned into a nightmare. In other words the illusion is a lie just like Islam.

    Even today in the USA there are areas that you do not state that you are an atheist unless you are willing to put up with the intimidation by those very nice religious people. Remember it is there duty even if by intimidation to get you to convert or at least lie about what you believe in.

  98. Mrs. B:

    There is nothing wrong with the human body. What is wrong is what psychological conditioning which equates a human body with sin or an object for the purposes of sin. This type of thinking creates a psychosis.


    By the way, I am also glad your back.

    By the way Mrs. B is a fan of mine. She actually can’t wait to see me write my opinion. She stated this recently and she even followed me from another blog. Not sure I should feel all warm and fuzzy about that or a bit concerned. 🙂

  99. Sarah, Thank you for answering. I don’t get it at all but I do appreciate your sharing.

    Mrs. B. I had also googled what you posted about pigs. It is copied all over the internet- no source is listed and scientific sites are not posting it. It seems like something written to make “sense” of the pork prohibition.

    How about this. We are forbidden to eat pork. That’s all it says. Why villify the creature? Did you know how useful pigs are to us in terms of medical research? That there are pork based medicines because we are so compatible with them? MAYBE we are not supposed to eat pig -out of respect to the pig.

  100. Sarah, on December 8, 2012 at 11:32 am said: ” … research said that they are one of the filthiest animals and carry lot of diseases….

    Miss Sarah,

    If pigs “are one of the filthiest animals and carry a lot of diseases”, then how do you explain the much longer lifespans in western pig-eating countries than much shorter lifespans in mostly beef-eating muslim countries???

    Please help me understand this. Thanks ….

  101. Here’s just one article on medical uses of pigs. They also use pig heart valves to transplant into humans because we are so compatible with each other. Oh. And I had a friend long ago whose child with Cystic Fibrosis had to take life saving medications with pork in them. Thank Allah for pigs and all the help and good they do us.

  102. Oh. And with regard to that other article. They often pen pigs with nests of rattle snakes??? NO they don’t. Puuuleeeeeez.

  103. Sandy:

    Here is another interesting article on pork:

  104. Sarah:

    Do you eat chickens?

  105. Sarah and Mrs. B:

    Here is a site that you might be more receptive in reviewing.

    Sandy let me know what you think as well.

    Bigstick, please stop writing very long comments, or posting lots of comments and articles. It is called bloghogging. It does not help the discussion, you exhaust people. And people will shy away from the discussion. In a good debate everybody gets their turn. Please keep commenting but keep your comments short, and don’t overtake the thread.

  106. As usual the moderator who has a bone to pick with me. You dislike for me and continually single me out is notable. Tell me when AB is back as apparently you have no use for me. Next, I tried to keep it short and terse as you asked but apparently it doesnt’ really make a difference what I do.

  107. Moderator: I sent an email to you please read and apply.

    Thank you.

  108. According to Dr. Michael Greger who is a physician, author, recognized speaker on nutrition, food safety, and public health issues, a founding member of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine, licensed general practitioner specializing in clinical nutrition and currently serving as the Director of Public Health and Animal Agriculture at the Humane Society of USA:

    Cured meats such as bacon and ham are loaded with carcinogenic nitrosamine producing nitrites and should be avoided. The level of nitrosamines in bacon is so high that they have even been found in the smell of frying bacon. Pan fried pork chops likewise contain carcinogens. A case report linked pork consumption to a penis tumor caused by HPV, which can cause cancerous anal and genital warts. Pork consumption has also been linked to liver failure, due to hepatitis E. Pigs appear to be reservoirs of the virus. Pork tapeworms can take up residence the human brain, and in fact are the most common cause of adult onset epilepsy. They can be contracted through pork consumption or eating food handled by a person who eats pork. Pork is a source of saturated fat as well as cholesterol. Saturated fat has been linked to lower rates of breast cancer survival.

  109. @ AA, you carry on arguing about the same thing then… Fact is it won’t make anybody here or anywhere else change their minds about Islam period! I am done with this discussion that won’t take us anywhere.
    You & Bigstick thrive on such subjects. We have read your opinions time & time again.
    Pig-eater, abaya-wear… So long as nobody is FORCED/PRESSURED into doing anything I am all for it.
    I can’t help thinking that people who don’t believe/can’t believe in anything envy believers.
    There is nothing wrong with Islam thought I would admit some Muslims at times are complete nut cases, but hey we’re all human.

  110. bigstick
    Sorry, I do not follow as it is by followers of false prophet and so the whole site is null and void for Muslims though some true facts could be there to trap the unsuspectng readers.

    And no I do not eat chickens, thanks for asking though.

    Honest Abe,
    Can you please give me statistcs to prove what you are claiming. Thanks.

  111. @Sarah,

    As always you want to be selective about what you consider Pig meat. As an example:

    “Cured meats such as bacon and ham are loaded with carcinogenic nitrosamine producing nitrites and should be avoided. The level of nitrosamines in bacon is so high that they have even been found in the smell of frying bacon. Pan fried pork chops likewise contain carcinogens. ”

    Well of course when you eat FAT as in bacon for example, you will have problems. Same happens if you eat big portions of Cow Fat or Sheep Fat (like the tail). In any animal if you eat the bad parts you will be eating unhealthy food.

    By the way nitrosamines is not naturally produced by an animal. It results from the process of curing meats. i.e. if you do not make Pig meats go through that process it is not an issue. It is also found on other foods like pickles and fish products. The word cured, which started that paragraph, should have gave you a clue that you are making a bad argument by referencing a process. However, we all know you are not interested in facts, rather supporting your position at all costs.

    Also, there are studies with plenty of peer reviews, which indicate that consumption of Cow meat increases the change of Colon Cancer significantly. And for your information colon cancer is much more common than penis cancer.

    The point is you still cannot support your argument that Pig Meat is more dangerous than Beef. That is unless you use your ancient books as scientific evidence.

    Bottom line, no matter what your choice of meat is. Eat it in moderation and cook it well and you will be healthier.

    Also, please get off this argument of eating an animal will make you acquire its traits. It just makes you look stupid. That is unless you are willing to prove it, by eating pigeons then stepping out of a 10th floor balcony and demonstrating your newly acquired trait of flying.

  112. Moq i m glad i crack you up but perhaps your head is also cracked. i made a comment that i copied and paste tht pig remark but it didnt appear n i was too lazy n sleepy to rewrite it. Its scientific.

  113. Moq i m glad i crack you up but perhaps your head is also cracked. i made a comment that i copied and paste tht pig remark but it didnt appear n i was too lazy n sleepy to rewrite it. Its scientific.

    Bigstick dont flatter yourself. As the moderator n Rahma correctly point out, to me you have become a joke. Some of your peers are walking down the same path of shame too. you spew the same boring hate. even the author and visitors on Fatal Feminist are tired of you and reprimanded you.
    and pigs are filthy creatures despite their many benefits for God has created everything with a purpose. Pigs can be usef for many things, Sandy but we are not allowed to eat it that is all. Many non religious scientist have given evidence upon evidence of the filth of pigs.

    d Dutch researchers found the Enterococci bacteria in pigs cause more trouble for humans than the same type of bacteria found in poultry.

  114. mrsB,

    “Its scientific. ”

    Like I told you before, you lack basic knowledge of what science is. Using text from religious and propaganda sites as scientific proof does not make the information factual, it is just claims.

    Doubling down on the same bad argument, just reaffirms your lack of understanding.

    And by the way I am trying to be positive in my responses, because your laughable positions do have some entertaining value!!!

    @bigstick1, Thanks. I am glad to be back at least for a short while. I do miss some of the funny exchanges here!

  115. MoQ:


    Mrs. B:

    First the issue on a different blog was regarding issues of racism, calling for officers to be fired who did their jobs professionally, and the blogger’s belief that criminal behavior should be overlooked. First she chose to publish a select amount of information which specifically left out issues where she was wrong in the appication of the law and the fact that calling for officers who were doing their job should be fired. She also would not allow my responses to be published to certain individuals who requested additional information. Next, I can still go on the blog I, however have no intention of associating myself with a racist who identifies themselves with the verbage of savage and upholds criminal behavior and who calls for law enforcement officers jobs who treated the criminal very nicely. The Blogger has since published additional racist material. Next I am getting tired of you bringing up items that you are not involved in and only have cursory information on from other blogs and no further background on but apparently wanting to engage me on this blog regarding someone’s else blog. I have a blog as well as you know and if you feel you need to vent at me regarding something that got your panties in a twist then do it on my blog rather than this one.

    In other words, stuck to this blog on the information given then vent your hatred at me all you want. Is that possible for you?

  116. I m certain i know a thing or two about science but u Moq certainly lack reading comprehension. do Dutch researchers and tge last link i posted seem anyrhing like religious text? plus from all of Sarah’s comment about the research by a doctor, u managed to conclude only about the hazard of eating fat of the pig. but u ignored and refuse to acknowledge the other part of her and my reseaech. eww its silly to argue with self professed intellects, they skim your arguments n cherry pick certain parts only.

  117. You are tired of me…Bigstick thats an ironic statement coming from you since almost everyone is bored of your same acrobatic stunts. plus this topic was about abayas n escalators, as silly as it is since I’ve seen more high heeled ladies tripping on the escalators than abayas getting stuck. Yes I myself almost tripped but it was because of a rude boy pushing me. however i do agree tht anything trailing is not good for you. keep it to your heels.

  118. Mrs. B:

    I want you to stop engaging me on issues of other blogs sites that I visit and stick with this one. You have a habit of getting it wrong and do not know the history. In addition, there are those bloggers where I do disagree with or agree with and we have each others email address and actually engage in other conversations. So we actually respect our difference and our blog engagements even if they can get heated on occasion. I know that can be a difficult concept for you to grasp that individuals can wage heated debates and still email one another on good terms but guess what it happens,.

    Can you agree to those terms and still spew your hatred at me?

  119. I showcased those other blogs to define a pattern that you show on which most if not all of us are fed up with. take a look at this topic for instance. see the earlier comments whete everyone sharef their hazardous experience with the escalator without attacking any religion up till you n aafke arrived. frankly, we all see it and we regard on most part, of you as a predictable joke. change your modus operandi if you dont like my modus operandi. heck even the moderator is tired of the same spewing.

  120. Mrs. B:

    The forcing of women to wear the Abaya in Saudi is about both the culture and religion. Maybe the joke is that you fail to understand that I really don’t give a damn if a woman wants to wear it but that is not the case it is FORCED and that frankly pisses me off. So long as it is forced and has been the cause of women’s deaths I find it repressive and I find it to be a symbol of enslavement. I can’t help it that you like it that is your choice but you fail to understand that many women suffer/died at the hands of the interruption of your religion and traditions and apparently you don’t give a damn.

    The type of hate I spew is that fact that people should be allowed to wear what they wish, believe what they wish, be treated as adults, not be discriminated based upon gender, race or orientation, and to believe in what they wish openly. However that is not the case in most Islamic countries which is due by both religion and culture. Next I accurately stated that the abaya was to cover the “awrah” and provided the definition. Facts are not hate; they are just fact.

    Now this topic is about abayas and watching out for the escalator but it also stated in the topic that the woman would not want to remove the item as it would be against Saudi tradition. Now that tradition is based on their interpretation of Islam and her not wanting to remove it could potentially jeopardize her life due to both shame and fear.

    I should state that it is illegal for a person to change their religion or to claim they are an atheist in your country without getting jailed or tortured. You have to excuse me if I just find that fact repulsive.

  121. mrsB,

    The problem with your selective reading is that you assume that if you found bacteria in ground pork then it automatically means pork is worse than other meats.

    The fact is bacteria is found in all meats. This is why you are supposed to cook meat thoroughly, especially when it is ground. Here is a link to USDA, the authority on safety of meat products in the US. They say similar things about beef and bacteria.

    I can produce many links with similar information about beef. Hence using your logic, cows should not be eaten because their meat have been scientifically proven to contain bacteria 🙂

    The problem you have is really a lack of understanding of how to judge evidence and how studies can be compared against other studies. All of these articles are not telling you to avoid eating Pork or Beef. They are giving you information to avoid risks of bacteria with meat products (i.e. Cook the food well). You decided to arrive at different conclusions than what the articles are actually telling you.

    That is really at the center of why I come to the conclusion that you do not understand science. In science you do not make the conclusion first then try to make the evidence fit that conclusion. The scientific process involves making observations, test them, then develop proper conclusions based on what the evidence provided you. In the case of the article about pork, which you linked, the proper conclusion would have been “eating ground pork without cooking it to the proper temperature increases your risk of bacterial infection”. Compare that with your wild conclusions.

  122. As for how much skin is shown, I think modesty is relative. When emphasis is put on how someone dresses rather than on basic human rights, there are issues- whether that someone is being judged for wearing a bikini or an abaya.

  123. This is all quite hilarious! The latest meat scandal in Canada involved beef, not pork. The beef was contaminated with E-coli. Chicken has to be handled ever so carefully in the kitchen and must be cooked extremely well to avoid bacterial poisoning.

    A truly educated Jew or Muslim understands that in this day and age it is perfectly safe to eat pork. Well, not safe for the pig but certainly for those who kill, cook and eat it.

  124. I agree with StrangeOne’s last comment.

    Sarah, please try out Moq’s pigeon experiment, you’ll be doing some real scientific empirical research, and you will be helping evolution along as well.

    Wendy, the industrial meat processing plants are responsible for cantamined meat, it’s safer and better for your health to buy organic.

    Or, the most logical conclusion one can make from this discussion is to follow Radha’s example and become vegetarian. All problems solved!

  125. So many people agree that as long as nobody is forced it’s ok.
    I agree in principle. But reality is different. We do not know how many women are forced to wear abayas and hide their faces, because these are the last women who can speak out freely.

    Moreover, If you have a (man made) religion where some dude came up with the sick notion that women have to be covered, (the Judeo Christian Islamic religion) otherwise they will burn in hell, then that isn’t really ”free will” now is it?
    To make people believe they will be be tortured for all eternity if they don’t do what you tell them is the ultimate in enforcement.

    Click on this link to see an antique Muslim painting of Mohammed visiting hell and looking at women being burnt while strung up by their hair because they did not veil their hair.
    Sick, who makes such sick things up? And also the ultimate in enforcement.

    So, unless a woman veils because she enjoys being a masochist, has some serious physical deformity, or enjoys the vanity of imagining herself to be superior and elevated above non-veiling women, I would say that that the unhealthy, ugly, impractical, unhygienic and unnatural fashion of veiling is always enforced, and women should be protected from it in all civilized countries.

  126. Other pig eww factors:

    – pig urine seeps into its own meat. The smell of urine is present in the meat
    – pork back fat is prone to oxidative rancidity and not suitable for eating
    – eating pork causes hardening of thre arteries, increases blood pressure, inflammation of joint pains
    – pigs eat non-stop. They eat their own faeces.
    – When pigs are full, they vomit and eat their own vomit and that of others
    – Pigs will sometimes pee on their own excreta before eating it.
    – Medical science finds that pigs host many parasites and potential diseases
    – pigs are scavengers and will eat anything, even sick dead animals
    – pigs have the poorest digestive system of any animals and because of this the toxins from the food are not properly elimiated and toxins are stored in the fat. Pigs are then on your dinner table ready to be eaten. Compare this to other animals such as cows or lamb who eat clean fresh vegetation and whose digestive system is more sophisticated – e.g. cows have more than one stomach and food is processed properly and toxins are elimiated faster. What you choose to eat is up to you.
    – cooking pig meat for long time is not enough to kill all its germs.

  127. MoQ

    “:Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small mind discuss people”

    – Eleanor Roosevelt

  128. That is where u are wrong Aafke. most Muslim women who chooses on their own free will to wear hijab do not do so out of fear to God’s punishment but rather out of love for God and to follow his command,that simple. Contrary to your belief we do so out of devotion to our Creator,as a hijab wearing woman myself i can attest to this. And for someone so pro choice,you are certainly being harshlyjudgemental on us by calling us so many nmes. Don’t you think you should leave that to us to decide why we wear the hijab?or why not?

  129. Re: Lifespans in Pork Eating Versus Beef Eating Populations / Myths About Pigs & Pork

    Here are a few excerpts from an article I read ….

    Pork meat causes disease: No, little microscopic parasites, bacteria, and viruses cause disease, not pigs.

    Pork makes you stupid: Nope, parasites and other microorganisms that affect the brain, along with environment influences tend to make people stupid.

    Pork meat in difficult to digest: Yep, just as difficult to digest as lamb, goat, beef, poultry and bran.

    Pork meat is very fatty: Sorry, pork tenderloin is one of the least fatty meats there is. Ham, once trimmed, is over 96 percent fat free.

    Pork is full of saturated fat: As is the fat of most animals. Face it … beef tallow in pretty saturated and have you noticed how chicken fat congeals at room temperature?

    Eating pork shortens your life span: This I found extremely entertaining! Follow this simple logic: If pork shortens the consumer’s life span, then countries consuming the most pork meat per capita would have the shortest per capita life span. Does that make sense?

    What country consumes the most pork per capita? Denmark, love those Danish baby back ribs! So Danes are dieing in their early years because these heathens eat unclean meat! Those sorry pork fat-swilling Danes! Nope, they live well above average life spans!

  130. I think the title of this post should be changed to; Beware of the trailing abayas, escalators and pigs.

  131. Aafke, I was just making a point. Everything depends on how the product is handled while being raised, slaughtered and cooked. All creatures can create illness and many herbs and veggies.
    Sarah, you really have some strange facts. Islam also says that if you have no other choice then you can eat haram foods.

  132.  how do you explain the much longer lifemspans in western pig-eating countries than much shorter lifespans in mostly beef-eating muslim countries?
    Short answer- Access to better healthcare facilities. Among other outer factors. But that is just my opinion as I don’t see Bangladesh, pakistan or egypt having a state of the art healthcare facilities like,say, Denmark or America. But let’s not forget that Denmark has been named the world’s capital of cancer. Google it up. Not sure if it is due to the pig fest though.

  133. For me, I can tell a woman’s body shape when she is wearing an abaya. I can tell if she has an hourglass figure or not, is she fat or skinny, etc. when she walks. As she walks, the fabric of the abaya will skim her curves. Although it may not be as obvious as a naked person, it is about as obvious as a modestly dressed “western” woman wearing jeans and a t-shirt, for example. For this reason, I don’t see how an abaya is any more modest than a woman wearing a t-shirt and jeans.

    I don’t understand the concept of modesty as it relates to clothing, because in some cultures, a woman is “modest” in a skirt (no top). No one finds it any more or less attractive than a woman wearing a shirt because being topless is considered the norm. This is why I think modesty is subjective.

    Aafke, I agree that no one should be forced to wear something they don’t want to, and in countries with a dress code, more or less, this will and does happen to at least some of the people within the country. At the same time, though, for countries whose culture it is seen as normal and expected for women to cover, most women are not going to see anything unusual about it because it’s their culture. Change the culture, and the clothing will likely also change as a result because clothing is representative of the culture.

  134. While I was trying to clarify my observations and opinion, Bigstick was proving my point all along of how shameless USA has become.

    Thanks Bigstick! 🙂

  135. Folks, stick to the subject of abayas and escalators. If YOU wish to discuss pigs, take it to the debate forum. That’s what it’s there for.

    On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 2:24 AM, American Bedu

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