Saudi Arabia: All She Wants is a Divorce

 

Fearing that he had returned, Samia hovered further back in to the closest with her frightened two year old daughter.  Samia didn’t mean to upset her husband when she suggested that he spend an evening at home with them.  It’s just that she saw him taking the pills which made him go outside of his character and become another person.  However, she was too late.  When she timidly requested her habibi to have a quiet evening at home with her and Marahm, he simply turned quickly and belted her across her face, breaking the skin on her right cheek.  A nasty welt appeared as instantaneously as her tears.  “Don’t interfere with me, woman!” Bassam roared at her.  “This is my palace and I do as I please here.”  Marahm had witnessed her baba striking her umee.  Silent tears ran down her face as she watched her father head out the door.

As she sat in the dark closet with her daughter, Samia decided that she had had enough.  No longer would she be the quiet mouse.  He refused to divorce her so she was going to take the initiative and ask for khula.

khula

dailynewsegypt.com

 

According to Wikipedia, khula is defined as the right of a woman to seek a divorce from her husband in Islam for compensation (usually monetary) paid back to the husband from the wife.[1] Based on traditional fiqh, and referenced in the Quran and hadith, khula allows a woman to initiate a divorce through the mutual consent of the husband or a judicial decree. However, differing interpretations of khula exist across Islamic schools of law and regions in regards to the compensation, consent of the husband, role of the court and judge, number of witnesses a woman must have, and the iddah (“waiting”) period, and child custody.[2]

Most schools agree that the husband’s agreement is a basic procedure and essential to the “sale” (khula), unless extenuating circumstances apply. While this is the prevailing interpretation, other interpretations suggest that the husband does not have to consent if the grounds of divorce are valid. Cases that involve legal cruelty (darar) or the husband’s unwillingness to consent to the divorce due to life imprisonment, mutilation, or the death sentence are typically considered valid. In addition, if a husband cannot provide his wife with basic marital obligations, such as shelter or maintenance, a woman may be granted khula.[7] If the woman is underage, then consent must be given from the guardian of her property.[8] In almost all cases, a woman must have clear evidence in her favor to be granted khula[9] The laws of khula in particular cannot be found in the Koran, therefore, imams must discern what they believe to be valid reasons for divorce.[

Women awarded Khula in Saudi Arabia are required to financially compensate their husbands or give away marriage settlements. Sometimes, this may include custody rights to their children. Other than the dowry, it is also common for the wife, especially in the case of newlyweds, to return marriage expenses. Older females in Saudi Arabia generally don’t support Khula. They believe that the increased number of Khula requests is the result of Western influences of Saudi culture. Mainly, the new belief that women should also pursue financial aspirations. In Saudi Arabia, women can end up losing when awarded Khula. This is because often they cannot support themselves or their children.

The story about Samia and her daughter is fiction and one I made up on the fly.  However, it is just one example of many on why a woman in Saudi Arabia may choose to defy culture, tradition and religious beliefs and file for khula.

Saudi Gazette also has a recent article citing challenges women have in being granted khula (divorce) through the Islamic (shariah) courts.  While many examples are cited why women want a divorce or why they may not follow through with divorce, little practical information or advice is given.

This article does not have a happy ending or good advise to offer women who are in untenable positions.  Sadly, the law is often not on their side.  If the women do not have a powerful or supportive family or the Wasta to pay through the system to obtain khula, they often find themselves caught in an undesirable position and literally hanging in limbo in the shariah legal system.

While there are risks for the women who come forward and talk about their situations, they are also being trailblazers and helping to build a foundation for future women to gain help.  Additionally, support groups either by word of mouth or anonymously through social media forums should be formed to help give these women the knowledge they are not alone and that there are sympathetic ears available for them.

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37 Responses

  1. Since Islam wants their women to be virgins, does this pose a big problem for those wanting a divorce or are they able to marry again?

  2. @All
    There is no problem for a woman to ask for KHULA.TALAQ is from a man and KHULA from a woman.
    Reason for KHULA , may be many but a woman has the right to ask for KHULA through SHARIA COURT. It may be a very simpe reason, that she does not like him or he does not appeal her, neither his face, nor body , nor his attitudes, may be any reason. SHARIA Court is obliged to order for their separation and KHULA.
    There is one condition that he has the right to ask her to return what he has given her . It is very simple.

  3. On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 5:07 PM, American Bedu

  4. interesting info

  5. In islam there should technically be no issue with khula or it’s aftereffects however in saudi , this is far from true. again no one in their right mind would claim saudi as the upholder of true islam or it’s virtues…
    ksa has a bizarre man made system subjugating women and has gotten away with it for so long. god only knows how much longer .

    But i agree Khula in sudi courts is no easy matter, you will need lots of wasta and money to get out of the marriage easily and i’m not talking the ‘ i dont like his nose so i want out variety either’, even physical abuse, breaking the marriage contract etc., still means an uphill battle for the woman and those with strong backing survive the rest are done for…

  6. Sami, mahr is the money a woman gets for giving the man sexual pleasure. It is designated as such by all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence.
    The woman has provided the sex, the man has to pay her, otherwise the marriage is not valid. As the man has had the sex he should never be allowed to get the payment back. After all, he cannot undo the sexual pleasure he has had from her or give the woman her holy hymen and market value back.
    The only legitimate reason to ask for (part of) the mahr back is when the couple were married but there has not been sex.

    And why this difference in getting a divorce for men and women? why can’t a woman just say ”I divorce you” and be rid of the man?
    It’s so unequal, só unfair! It’s so clear who made these immoral rules up!
    Some ancient male misogynist primates.

  7. Carol, your story is great, ever consider being an author? I do wish I had the information all of you have put forth in your comments before writing my last book, but will certainly use this for the future. It is not just in Saudi that women have to deal with backward ideas about marriage, sex, domestic violence, and divorce. It has not been so long ago that a woman in America had very little protection against an abusive husband and father, 30-40 years. It took years to get the police to get involved and actually help the women and children.

    It takes getting the word out that such injustice exists so that public outrage can help the victims get the system changed and it years to get peoples ideas to change. We need to get more of these stories out in all cultures to get the wheels of justice to move.

  8. Hi Sam/Sami/Other Shadow Accounts,

    Either your knowledge of Islam/Mohammed/Koran/Hadees is genuinely lacking. Or you are doing the usual taqia.

    Aafke is right! Numerous scholarly and/or reliable sources define or describe the Arabic term nikah (or the root n-k-h) as meaning “sexual intercourse”, or the contract of sexual intercourse, or marriage as a contract for sexual intercourse for the payment received by the “bride” for nikah.

    Sam/Sami, your ignorance surpasses me because behind this ignorance you present a hostility and agenda that many of us are fully aware of. Sorry, I’m in no mood to be polite with people like you.

    Here is an article which is very informative and quotes scholarly and other reliable sources:

    http://www.islam-watch.com/MAsghar/meaning-of-Nikah.htm

  9. I don’t like sites like ”Islam-watch”, they are too radical anti-Islam, and I don’t think they always do their research very well. And it’s not necessary. You can go to an Islamic site, about Islamic jurisprudence and there they will quite happily explain that mahr is money to be paid to the wife for sexual pleasure and that is obligatory for the man and for the validity of the marriage.

    And in sura nissaa it says that the woman may give the money back, but I seem to remember that that was a suggestion for rich women divorcing a poor man as a nice gesture, not as something a woman has to do.

    And as far as a woman divorcing a man just because she doesn’t like him, there is a hadith where a woman complained to Mohammed that she didn’t like the man she had been forced to marry and Mohammed said she could dump him. She didn’t do so, she just wanted to know she could. Sometimes the knowledge that you can get out if and when you want helps you to stick it out bit longer.

    Another woman who just didn’t like her husband, was released from her marriage by Mohammed, so if the imams would actually follow the sunna of the prophet they would allow women to divorce if they weren’t happy in their marriages.
    Without all the bribes and the extortion of ridiculous sums, and returning the money the women have honestly earned by providing sexual pleasure to the men.

  10. Thank u Aafke,for pointing out about the irrelevance of that website suggested by the lovely X, an extremist and an idiot and a taqiyya offender. And the last part of your comment shows you what Islam really is, it is fair and just to women but has been abused by men of today. There is a fine line between Islam and Muslims.

  11. MrsB, I do not think the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions are fair to women.
    But, you can cherry pick them for stuff which is fair to women, instead of ignoring those bits and cherry picking what’s bad for women.
    There is a whole list of very good and positive rules and lessons to be gleaned from the Hadith and the example of Mohammed, it’s a pity that those who wield the power in religion choose to ignore those.

  12. Mrs, B, I once made a list of 44 good rules to follow, cherrypicked by me from the Quran and hadith, you might like it:
    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/?s=44+rules

  13. Arabic is a vast language and one word can have many meanings depending on the context in which it is used. There are certain English words that can have more than one meaning too. For example the word “sex” can mean to have a relationsip and it can also mean “gender”.

    Same goes for the word “nikah”. The word can mean physical relationship between man and woman. The marriage is what makes such a relationship valid, pure and legal within the limits set by Allah. To be binded together in marriage by relationship which makes the union, which unites them, makes them one couple.

    Nikah also means the lawful union of two people (ie marriage) and what unites people together other than physical relationship for enjoying each others company and for starting off a family? And such relationship is generally what happens after a marriage – its no secret.

    The way some ignorant people use it, they make it look like a bad thing suit their purpose. . “Nikah” is really a pure word. The root word n k h refers to marriage and anything related to marraige and the contract of betrothal/marriage – not sexual intercourse per se. The word nikah is commonly used to mean marriage and that is what people understand when one mentions the word.

  14. That’s a great list you have there Aafke but you forgot to mention about the mother’s value according to the sunnah. There are so many sunnah emphasizing on the importance of mothers. For example thw Prophet specified her value of three times higher than the father. He also said that Heaven lies beneath the mother’s feet. I know some Muslims do not value their mother as they should. I’m a mother and I know how and what it is to be a mother. I appreciate my mother as how I should. http://www.soundvision.com/info/mothers/inquran&hadith.asp

  15. I realized that I am becoming quite the icon among Louis Enakai and X since they have been following and using my comments as their own. Flattering to have people quoting after you. A warm shout out to my two fans O:-)

  16. mrsB, I am sure we could make the list 100 😉

  17. Jess, if the religious right in america gets their way it will be just as bad from women in America. They are already whittling away at women’s reproductive rights, women’s right to choose abortion or not, women’r right to equal pay, etc etc. Women in america could be in the same boat as women in the middle east pretty soon…

  18. Mrs b – I don’t agree with the moms are 3 times more than dad. :-). I think both parents are equal. Both are absolutely dqmot and both should hold the same place , respect and affection in their kids eyes.

    Fair is fair

  19. You are right Radha,both parents are deserving of their kids respect and loyalty however the mother is a few steps higher in value than the father since it was she who endured 9 months of pain carrying her child and it was she who risk her life giving birth lest not forget the 10 hours of intense contractions and the painful proddings by the kind mifwife to check dialation progresses and of course the painful moments of breastfeeding,breast engorgment due to over supply of milk and the painful bites once the baby grows some teeth. Also the sleepless nights exclusively for the mother since baby refuses bottles therefore daddy cannot help with the night feedings. And when mommy is sick, she cannot take any medication willy nilly since it effects the breast milk. Up till now mommy still breast feeds mashallah thus the drama is still ongoing. Father is valueble, yes, but mother tops it a million percent.

  20. Forgot to mention the hemorrhoid and the itchy stretch marks plus extreme low blood pressure due to blood loss and over supply of breast milk. due to these reasons, ibelieve a mother is a few steps higher in value than tje father but both should be loved and respected.

  21. I agree with mrs B, I think that a mother does more for a baby than a father.
    How are you and the baby mrsB?

  22. You’re very gracious Aafke.wish you are always like this coz its a beautiful side of you compared to the angry atheist side 🙂 we are doing great,the baby is now a babbling walking toddler with a passion for dancing as well as cats. How about you? Planning a small horse whisperer any time soon?

  23. This comment is for Jess and Afkee-Art, I don’t know what America you live in or heard about, but in the fourty years I was in the work force, I never received less pay on the job than a man did for the same work. (I worked in both the public and private sector) Nor did I have to worry I could not get birth control if I wanted it, or for that matter if I had wanted an abortion, I could have gotten one. That is becuase I worked hard to be equal, I payed for my own birth control, I have no children, and I think abortion is the killing of a human life. Those are my rights as a citizen of the USA. No one, regardless of what the left is telling you, is taking those things away. I am 55 years old, I have lived it, so I speak what I know not what the left wing media wants you to beleive.

  24. Actually I am basing my comments on what I hear and read from the right wing media
    President Obama had to install a law to guarantee equal pay for women, and I have seen a lot of Republicans commenting against it.
    In many states they are implementing legislation against women who want an abortion. I am not against early abortion when the fetus is just a lump of cells, when there is a good reason, like incest, or when the woman was raped, or when the woman’s life is in danger because something went wrong.

    I think women also deserve the right to live and actually they have more right to live than a parasitic clump of cells.
    Especially if the fetus is doomed anyway I think the woman’s life is far more important than both dying together because of some religious bigots who can’t read their own magic book. Like the woman who died in Ireland last month. The baby was lost, the woman could have been saved, but they let her die, very slowly and in agonizing pains, over three days. Disgusting and evil.

    And if Viagra is covered for men and birth control isn’t for women there is something very much wrong.
    Women having the right to decide about their own reproduction and bodily integrity is far more important, and has far wider implications for the collective welfare of a society than men who have erection problems.

    If you provide birth control to women and girls (and comprehensive sex-education) there will be far, far, fewer abortions, (as is proven by other, more advanced societies). If you think that is a worthwhile cause to fight for, and I for one do, then you should be a lot more pro-free-contraceptives.

  25. Mrs b , I had the easygoing with both my kids. Had a easy easy 4 hr labor, 2 for my daughter. No post delivery issues , both my kids fed easily . Their issue was sleeping and since I was a intern for one and in a fellowship for another my poor husband walked the corridors all night long . O course internship was no walk in the park but the were days when I had easy night calls and slept at the hosp while he never got to sleep at night till both kids were 1 :-). I think for almost a decade any illness and they yelled for dad at night. Ocourse I pumped as much as I could but dad did the taking care, dealt with spit ups and stinky diapers and when I was home the slept 🙂 plus I had a whole houseful of grandparents nearby all awake and willing to be with babies all ru the day.
    Enjoy your baby and take care, it’s a fun phase and they grow up soon,
    Even now my husband works full time to fund their costly education, I work too but mostly to fund our vacations and I take it easier than him :-). S in my case I have to give him credit . That’s why I said both are equal.

    Aafke – I agree about the pay 100%. I have seen it wh I work its becoming more equal but not fully equal yet.

  26. I agree with women’s right I don’t think I would have an abortion but I think it’s a choice at is to be available . Like like the other end, I will never accept polygamy for me, but I support willing adults having that choice.
    We are adult humans capable of thinking and decision making, what one thinks is sin may not be for another. Hence we must permit adults to decide as long as they don’t harm anyone else, and make society pay.

  27. Actually, my believe is its not the Governments right to provide anything free for its people that other people within the society must pay for. I provided for myself what I needed or wanted. Same for abortion, not the governments responsibilty nor should it be banned entirely. If women or men were responsible enough to have sex, they should pay for birth control or viagra themselves, not provided by insurance companies. Usually when you have to be responsible for yourself and your wants, you take better care of your money for needs and wants. Like you, Aafke-Art, I am very into horses, I ride dressage and own horses. Since I don’t need birthcontrol paid for me, why can’t the Government or my employer pay for my riding lessons or feed my horses????? I could be riding at the Olympic level if someone else was paying for my horse habit. (lol)

  28. Kat:

    So you are okay with paying for cancer treatements and heart surgery verses an insurance company or a government subsidy?

    The government is a representation of the people and many people feel that women/families are to be allowed the access to birth control as well as other preventative measures. This will ensure that the people are not paying for unwanted children in the form of welfare or foster care, in addition it also tackles the problem of medical issues before they become expensives issues. In other words the upfront costs far outweight the backend costs. Remember an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of a cure.

    You should also note that birth control tackles other problems besides fertility. In addition when people have more control over their lives they are happier and often times in a better mental state. In addition, people who are in control of their destiny are often times more apt to obtain higher education and be more productive as citizens.

    People who do not have the access nor the funds to buy birth control or viagra will suffer from mental depression, diminished quality of life, lack of productivity, and that is before you get into the whole component of having unwanted pregancies which will either lead to abortion or a child that is not wanted thus creating more issues along the lines of the cycle of poverty which often times means less education, more drug dependency, crime, etc.

    Face the fact that people will have sex as it is a compound of humanity. Asking someone not to have sex because they cannot afford birth control or viagra when such items are available and creates positive societial impacts is just damn stupid, unrealistic and a detriment to society as a whole. I for one as part of the people which a government represents damn sure wants birth control and viagra available to anyone who wishes it as it benefits society as a whole.

    AA:

    Yes there are factions of the (evil) religious groups that want to control women and they must be fought daily in the US. We have been fortunate that the Tea (nutters) Bag Party (fairy tale abrahamic religion hate groups) were given a sound defeat in the election. However more needs to be done about keeping their hate ideology to themselves and out of the public domain.

    To the rest:

    Islam as a practice on divorce and everything else treats women as a subhuman. If you want to state Islam gives women rights fine however delusional. In secular society it gives you far more rights and allows you to chose what you wish where Islam and Islamic societies do not to include how you will dress and your opportunities to include the reality of getting a divorce and actually trying to support yourself or children (if you are even allowed to keep them).

  29. Bigstick1,
    I have a saying, “if you are woman enough to spread your legs, then you should be woman enough to take care of what happens.” In other words, be responsible to yourself and your actions, don’t expect someone else to take care of you. Sex happens outside of marriage, I am no prude, been there done that. But I took my own responsibility to make sure I did not bring an innocent child into the world. I did not need the Govt. to provide “FREE” healthcare in the form of birthcontrol. There are lots of healthcare issues that insurance is there for. It still does not need to be provided by the Govt. My insurance was provided by my employer, and if I did not like what they provided, I had the choice to change employers. CHOICE. Works better than the Govt. anytime. And I very much agree with you in regards to Islam. I am beginning to think of organized religions as cults and not what God or Allah (one and the same) intended.

  30. Kat:

    I pay sales tax, property tax, income tax etc. and my choice is to ensure that my tax dollar goes toward prevention so that I don’t have to worry about the lack of education, control over a wives choices, or a person who on a whim of having sex resulting in my paying far more later. So I chose as a taxpayer to offset this cost up front than paying for it in the end. I in fact demand that the government make it mandatory that it be provided as it gives many women who are forced by not having a choice due to poverty, family issues, religion (if found out by husbands or other control religious nut jobs), etc.

    You have never seen true poverty or true control over a woman’s choices in this country; however I have. For the good of all it is best to provide free birth control at a minimum.

  31. I only wrote the comment to test this new commentator, ”Jess”. I found her comment borderline spam, a name which is a link to a divorce site, and a rather uninteresting non-committed comment. I wanted to see if she would come back, and she didn’t, I therefore consider her comment spam.

    Anyway, Radha, an unwanted child, or a dead mother are far more expensive to society than giving women free birth control. or even an abortion.
    Women who have the right to determine their own reproductive rights, are far less expensive and contribute far more to society than women who are forced to reproduce like farm animals.

    The cure for poverty is known: if you take women off the animal cycle of reproduction and give them education the whole floor of the village rises. It has been proven again and again, and not a single time when the clergy did not stand in it’s way.
    (Paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens.)

    Freedom and self determination and the right to bodily integrity for women are the basis for a successful society, take it away and the whole society will sink into misery, poverty, and squalor.
    America is at this moment at, or close to, the bottom of the list of developed countries in many fields, like education, healthcare, baby deaths.
    I know America has some great educational institutions, but when you look at the average numbers of Americans and how their students achieve compared to other countries America is not doing well. The fact that so many Americans believe in nonsense like ”Creationism” is the result of deficient education and is making America look ridiculous. We had a commentator here who wasn’t sure if evolution is not as good a ”theory” as creationism. This is the result of the substandard education most Americans receive. Which again is the result of the unhealthy influence of religious bigots on the government and education. America led the world in science 50 years ago, but that is the past.

    Texas has the highest count of teenage pregnancies, and repeat teenage pregnancies of America. They also do not give children proper sex-education and contraceptives. So that’s the result you get. Compare it with the Netherlands where teenagers do get normal sex-education and the use of contraceptives are encouraged and teenage pregnancies are very rare.

    I am against abortion on the whole, especially when used as a kind of post-contraception, and the best way to avoid these is giving teenagers comprehensive, down-to-earth sex education and easy access to contraception.

    And I myself needed the pill for medical reasons. As many other women do. So why should it not be in the American healthcare package? A ridiculous idea which stems from a twisted religious idea that women are not to be allowed to have self determination, especially not when it comes to sex. and they want women to be ”punished” for the crime of having sex.

    Let’s not forget that all the American ”pro-lifers” are only pro life of the fetus, not of the woman, and not of the child. They are quite happy to leave a woman without a future, or to let her die, or to let her go through the stress and bodily harm of giving birth to a baby which had never a chance to live. They are quite happy to leave a child to a life of poverty and squalor, or an early death even.
    If these people were really ”pro-life” they would stand for proper and free education, childcare and healthcare on demand for every woman and child in America, but that is exactly what they are also fighting against.

  32. Info from the internet.

    Aafke,evolution is only a theory and not a hardcore proven fact thus should not be promoted as if it a proven fact. Theory is simply one way of thinking and not THE only way of thinking. Plus the great evolution theory has so many holes and is based on faulty logics.Why faulty logic? The main reason is that in its widest scope, evolution is based on unobserved and unobservable events, on untestable axioms (that nature is all that is needed to explain the history of life), that nature without intelligence can form the complex and complicated machinery which makes up life and increase genetic information to the point that fish can gain the specific and complex anatomy of a reptile or a bird through the thoughtless and purposeless process of nature. When there are other theories based on different presuppositions that better explain these natural phenomena, it is certainly fair that evolution be called “only a theory”.

  33. How could it be realistic for people who profess to the logics and complexity of science be so careless to accept that “it just happened”,for something as complex as the Big Bang “just happened”.

  34. bigstick1,
    I have no problem with paying my taxes, I just think it should go for other sources. But you are wrong I have never seen poverty, ect., and I must assume you speak of it in the US? I dealt with it on a daily basis, as a child then as an adult as a police officer, where I retired from and now live quietly in Appalachia where I see its effects still everyday.
    People should life free to make their own choices and be equal to each other. But they should be allowed to work hard and make as much money as they want without having the Govt. take it and decide who and what should get their money. Why make it if I have to give it away? It is human nature to sit and take the things given than to work hard to get what you want yourself.

  35. Kat:

    Congrats on being retired. I am also a retired police officer more on the southern border area in a large populated area. I too grew up in poverty and in the Bible belt area.

    Quite frankly I am a realist and pragmatic. Your system as you want it is a fairytale. First and foremost the poor should not have to give up on having human relations simply because they are poor. Many by the way never chose to be there but life circumstances got them there. In addition, getting birth control pills currently requires a doctor’s appointment and a physical all of which cost money and the type of birth control can determine the cost. Next, people are allowed to be free however poverty diminishes freedom. In addition, I have no faith in people when it comes to going to the doctor and paying for something they cannot afford vs. that one night of just wanting to have your spouse/significant other for just confort. I know which will win out and sorry that is just reality. So let deal in reality, okay. Next, they now have another mouth to feed and another person on welfare, getting free medical assistance, free housing or low cost house, TANF, Food Stamps, SSA, etc. What you fail to understand is that the cost up front is a better application of monies than when it is too late. We as a society pay far more in monies for an unwanted child or a child that cannot be afforded by the parents in far more ways than just money. I have seen it firsthand.

    Next although the US is a capitalist society it is also a society that is socialist and that is needed to keep a balance among the people otherwise you risk monopolies and a virtual autocratic society hidden behind a veil of lies also known as democracy. The rich/elite have never been in business for the good of society or people just the bottom line. Just on that note I should state that the USA is not a democracy. Quite frankly I am glad I do not live in a true democracy as I have no desire to live by mob rule but I do desire to live in a country that protects it citizens against mob rule and autocratic structures. We live in a Republic not a Democracy. At least as it stands for now.

    Have you ever researched Mitt Romney and the Bain’s Capital situation? If you have not, then you should. It is interesting. I can go on regarding making money but the question also comes into play on how you make money and your tactics in obtaining it. Research how big business and individuals made money with their workers retirement only for it to go south. Then the workers are left with nothing but a bankruptcy. Ask yourself who pays on big business gone bad?

    By the way have you ever done a cost analysis on one child born in abject poverty (in good health) vs. the cost of birth control? If not you should as it will tell you immediately which is far more cost effective.

    However glad to know you think organized religion/mob religion is nothing but a farce.

    Now I know there is always the option of agreeing to disagree with me and that is okay. 🙂

    Take care.

  36. Mrs B, everything in science is called a ”theory”.
    Try 200.000 peer-reviewed papers on ”evolution”.
    There is more proof for the theory of evolution than there is for the theory of gravity.
    That’s a scientific theory as well, you hold something in the air, and according to the theory of gravity it falls down to the earth. But it is only a theory of course. But it has not as many peer-reviewed scientific papers relation to it as the theory of evolution.
    We use it in every branch of biology, it is the basis for many of the modern advances in medicine.

    This comment sounds as if it’s from a person who has never considered looking up the evidence.

  37. Aafke i have been trying to respond to you but my comment has been swallowed up.

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