Saudi Arabia: She Made the Greatest Sacrifice of All

dancing on the rooftop

pinterest.com

 

Andrea, now known as Amina, met and married her Saudi husband when they were both students in the United State of Iowa.  Amina had never traveled outside of the United States and had few, if any contacts, with foreigners.  When she met Saad, she never knew what hit her and was simply swept off her feet.  She fell madly in love with him and believed everything he told her without questioning.

When they had a civil marriage in the United States he insisted that the marriage must be kept secret because his parents did not know he had married.  He easily convinced Amina this was a normal procedure when the son was outside of the country but all that would change when she returned with him to Saudi Arabia.

Amina was not a stupid young woman but she was naïve.  She was a biology major and really didn’t care for modern technology and found that the internet gave her a headache.  She was on the reserved side with few close friends and did not have a close relationship with her parents either who had her later in life when they were in their late 40’s.  Most of the years she felt they had no idea how to raise a child and perhaps would have been better off never having her.

As a result, it did not take much for Saad to sweep Amina off of her feet and dutifully follow his every word and request.  She had never been a religious person in her life.  She believed in a God or supreme deity but did not affiliate herself with any religious doctrine or go to a church.  It was simple for Saad to introduce Amina to Islam and have her convent within two weeks.  He took it upon himself to be her teacher and oversaw her prayers and supplications.

Saad was attracted to Amina by her beauty.  She did not seem to have a clue how gorgeous she was with her 5’8” frame, blonde hair flowing freely all the way down to her tiny waist.  Her eyes were an unusual shade of azure blue.  He also found her equally beautiful on the inside.  Unlike the brassy American women he had met or even the forthright speaking Saudi women in his family, she was quiet and seemed to prefer listening to him rather than talk herself.

Saad was a year ahead of Amina at University so he graduated first.  Amina did not receive nor did she really care that she would not be finishing out her degree.  She just wanted to enjoy her cocooned life with Saad.

As Saad began the preparations for the return to Saudi Arabia, he told Amina he must travel to Saudi first to arrange for their accommodations.  Saad was returning back to his job as a customs official with the Saudi government.  They would be living in a conservative neighborhood in the Eastern end of Riyadh.  Amina was disappointed that she and her husband could not travel to Saudi Arabia together but she was understanding.  Thankfully he was able to assist Amina in applying for her first passport and promised to take care of her visa.

Before Saad’s departure and on returning his passport to her, Amina was thrilled to see that it had a Saudi visa inside.  He had her air ticket as well.  Amina did not know that there were distinctions in visas and never gave it a thought that her visa was identified as an ‘umrah visa.’  All she knew is that she’d join her dear husband two weeks after his own arrival in the Kingdom.

secret wife

secretwifelife.blogspot.com

 

Saad in the meantime was suffering his own set of demons.  He believed he loved Amina but did not intend to tell his family of her existence.  They lived in Abha so at least they were not local to him.  He knew his family would never approve of his marriage to an American.  In fact, they had already chosen a cousin from Lebanon to be his wife.  Additionally, he was in a position which prohibited him from legally having a foreign wife.  Saad focused on what all he needed to do to keep Amina a secret.

It would never occur to Amina that her husband would require special approval in order to be married to her.  She also believed he would never lie to her and each day she was overcome with more excitement to begin her new life in Saudi.  She also had a secret she could not wait to share with Saad once they were face-to-face.  She was expecting their first child!

Because of her travel on an umrah visa, Amina arrived in Jeddah to an anti-climatic arrival.  She was tired after the long flight and beyond disappoint that Saad was not at the airport to meet her.  After she cleared customs and retrieved her bags, she found an Egyptian holding a placard with her name.  Yes; Saad had told her he had made arrangements for someone to pick her up and that she was not to ask him questions or engage in conversation.  He also told her it would be a long drive from Jeddah to Riyadh and she it was imperative she not only wore her abaya and hijab but face veil and black gloves.

After an interminable ride that seemed to go on forever, she finally arrived in Riyadh.  This time Saad was waiting in the outside courtyard of the house to greet her.  On seeing Saad Amina’s tiredness and fears disappeared.  She was finally reunited with her habibi.  The first few days of her arrival she did not mind the solitariness of her location as she was battling acute jet lag and extra tiredness from her pregnancy.  She also was excited on become familiar with the new home and life with Saad in Riyadh.

Saad was thrilled when Amina shared with him they were going to have a child.  But he was also very specific in his instructions to her.  Expressing the utmost of concern he told Amina she could not leave the house under any circumstances, especially as she could neither speak nor read Arabic.  Saad worked long hours at the Riyadh airport but Amina took the opportunity to be the best American wife of a Saudi that she knew how to be.  Saad said it would look odd for him to have domestic help since people believed he lived alone.  As a result, Amina was kept fully occupied with the upkeep of the much larger house they now had.

She questioned Saad why people did not know yet they were married and especially not yet knowing anything about his family.  Saad said it would take time for his family to adapt as they were very conservative and felt it would be best to wait until after the baby was born before introducing Amina to his family or any friends.

After several weeks, the solitude and isolation was starting to get to Amina.  There home had small windows up high to the ceiling and let in little light.  There was not a yard in which she could spend time and enjoy the sunlight.  She was prohibited from going outside of the house.  Saad took care of all the shopping and other needs so she never even got the opportunity to just go for a ride with him in the car.  Of course this was all due to Saad’s deception and their lack of marriage approval, but Amina had no clue about this.

However, she finally found herself a sanctuary.  She had always thought that the small door in the upper level laundry room was a storage closet.  One day out of curiosity she opened the door and found it opened up to another level of stairs.  These stairs opened up onto a rooftop terrace.  Amina was thrilled.  She had found her sunshine.  She managed to create a small sanctuary for herself on that rooftop terrace.  She enjoyed going there each morning at sunset for her morning prayers.  As she gained confidence that this was a secure sanctuary and she was not drawing attention to herself, she began to spend more and more time up on the roof in the early mornings.  One morning she was so overcome with joy for the sunshine and the new life growing inside of her that she spontaneously got up and danced across the terrace while clutching her hands to her stomach in joy.  Little did she realize that some of the neighbors had noticed the young woman who prayed on the rooftop and now took to dancing.  These same watchers talked about her and referred to her as “The Amerikia.”

Eventually word reached Saad about his wife’s rooftop prayers and dances.  He was incensed and feared that Amina could ruin him.  He came home that evening and Amina immediately sensed something was not right with Saad.  He approached her wordlessly and then struck her sharply across one cheek and then the other.  He called her names she’d never expect to hear from his mouth.  He told her if she ever attempted to go up on the rooftop terrace again he would abandon her.  Amina begged him to forgive her and promised him she’d never do anything to upset him again.  She was terrified that he’d go to work the next day and not come home.

In fact, to teach Amina a lesson and instill further fear in her, he stayed away for three nights.  But that was not all he did.  While he was gone he traveled to Abha where his cousin from Lebanon was waiting and they married.  His cousin, Nora, was loyal to the tribe and pleased to be Saad’s wife.  She was eager to live with Saad in Riyadh.  Saad knew that Nora understood Arab men and he told her about Amina.  He told Nora that he deeply regretted his impulse to marry her and bring her to Saudi Arabia.  He had made the biggest mistake of his life and didn’t know what to do.

They devised a plan that they would confront Amina together with the truth of their marriage.  Saad, with Nora’s support, would explain to Amina she could never be known or seen publicly as a wife.  However, Saad did not want his child to be isolated.  It was agreed that once the child was born, Nora would introduce the child as a war orphan from Lebanon which the couple had adopted.

When Saad returned to the house with an Arab woman Amina thought she was finally getting to meet one of Saad’s sisters.  She had a broad smile of welcome on her face.  She was perplexed though when not only was her smile not returned but she was ignored by the woman.  Saad simply turned to Amina and said that the woman beside him was his Arab wife and he expected Amina to see to any needs she might have.  He then abruptly took Nora’s arm and led her to the bedroom.  Amina went into a deep shock and could not comprehend what she had heard and saw happening.  She had no idea what to do.  She had no friends.  She had no access to a phone.  She was too naïve to even think about trying to contact the US Embassy.

By this time Amina was only weeks away from her due date.  Not surprisingly she went into early labor and delivered a baby girl at home.  Because Saad did not want anyone to know of Amina’s presence in the Kingdom she never received any prenatal care and it was Nora who assisted Amina in her home delivery.  Amina fell instantly in love with her new child, a baby girl.  But after only a brief look, Nora took the child from her arms and left Amina in the room alone.

Nora took over all care for the baby.  Amina went into a deep post-partum depression.  One evening Saad returned home from work and told Amina he and Nora were going out with the baby.  She was under strictest orders to stay indoors and behave…or else.

By this time, Amina had given up.  She did not know where she had gone wrong with her life or with Saad but she knew she had reached the end of her rope.  With a spark of defiance she decided to go up to the rooftop terrace.  It was dark and she doubted anyone would notice her.  She didn’t even bother to put on an abaya or cover her head.  She needed to feel the fresh air upon her face.  She was on the rooftop with her face lifted upwords to the sky when she heard the voices.  “Look (Shuf), it is Al Amrekia (the American).  Amina was mortified.  She knew Saad would learn of her act of disobedience and punish her.  Without giving it a second thought, Amina danced along the rooftop and then as if she were a graceful ballerina making a final pirouette she jumped off the rooftop falling to the paved road four stories below.

 

married to a stranger

goodreads.com

The story above is a work of fiction by American Bedu.  However the story illustrates the worse of what can happen when a foreigner becomes involved in a relationship with a Saudi.  The Saudi man can be a master of secrets at the same time as he is at his most charming.  The Saudi man has many faces.  If a foreign woman is not presented to family or told that the relationship has to be kept secret then he has reasons that are not to the benefit or well-being of the foreign woman.  No foreign woman should engage in a relationship with a Saudi man without doing her due diligence and becoming acquainted with the customs, culture and traditions of Saudi Arabia and Saudi families.  While the story I wrote is extreme there are multiple instances of American women who have married Saudis without permission –and- come to the Kingdom on umrah visas only to become an illegal alien.  These women are unable to lead a normal life or as normal a life as one can live as a foreign wife to a Saudi.

 

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117 Responses

  1. Two different American women that I knew personally married Saudis and went over there. One was pregnant with twins and pushed down the stairs, and lost her babies, while the other was forced to leave Saudi Arabia without her children. When she was able to go visit her children, they called her all kinds of names. They are not nice men inside their own country. They are ruthless and non-caring. Their country and religion has taught them that women are nothing more than property and do to with them as they please as in the Qur’an he can have sex with her any way he wants and usually that means they want anal sex as well and plenty of it. When they are in the US they act like they treat their Saudi women like queens and always testify to the fact. They are liars and deceivers and not to be trusted.

  2. I’m sorry to read such story and such comment that is filled with stereotypes and misinformation.
    Saudi men are not the best of men… But looking at figures… American men are not the best not even close… So instead of demonizing others… look at your own culture and your men… It is always easier to point fingers to ‘the other’…
    And as for the comment above… actually in the Quran it clearly says that a man and a woman can have sex as they want except for anal sex… This is forbidden in Islam… so please check your information before you spread them…

  3. I’m sorry to read such story and such comment that is filled with stereotypes and misinformation.
    Saudi men are not the best of men… But looking at figures… American men are not the best not even close… So instead of demonizing others… look at your own culture and your men… It is always easier to point fingers to ‘the other’…
    And as for the comment above… actually in the Quran it clearly says that a man and a woman can have sex as they want except for anal sex… This is forbidden in Islam… so please check your information before you spread them…

  4. the story you wrote is not far to the reality… True these men are so so charming but at the same time they can be evils. All the girls dating or married to Saudis should know about this.

  5. I don’t understand the point of these made up stories. They push stereotypes and come off very prejudice.

  6. I totally agreed with Mandre..I worked in Riyadh fr 4 years in one of the biggest and prominent hospital in the city..I am a witnessed of how a Saudi man tend to be such a liar and deceiver! Not only to their foreign/non-Saudi wife but also to Saudi women..Believed me, some who just got married to Saudi woman but who has still an affair with a foreign woman..Or shall I say who was already in loved with a foreigner and would only marry his Saudi fiance for the sake of his family and tribe! But, on the lighter note, only one in a million could stand enough against norm and man enough to fight for the one they really love!
    From a Saudi man point of view, If a Saudi man can’t marry you in his own country and kept you as a secret to his family, then He is only fooling around! So sad but this is reality! Saudi man is a natural charmer who’s hiding behind a mask..A absolute hypocrites! to their society and worst of all to their RELIGION!

  7. I totally agreed with Mandre..I worked in Riyadh fr 4 years in one of the biggest and prominent hospital in the city..I am a witnessed of how a Saudi man tend to be such a liar and deceiver! Not only to their foreign/non-Saudi wife but also to Saudi women..Believed me, some who just got married to Saudi woman but who has still an affair with a foreign woman..Or shall I say who was already in loved with a foreigner and would only marry his Saudi fiance for the sake of his family and tribe! But, on the lighter note, only one in a million could stand enough against norm and man enough to fight for the one they really love!
    From a Saudi man point of view, If a Saudi man can’t marry you in his own country and kept you as a secret to his family, then He is only fooling around! So sad but this is reality! Saudi man is a natural charmer who’s hiding behind a mask..An absolute hypocrites! to their society and worst of all to their RELIGION!

  8. I am Muslim and please don’t think this is represntative of Islam Muslims . This is representative very specific to my Arab culture and even the most relevant to Saudi and Khaleeji cultures.

    The most glaring point of this story that i feel like is the truest is the lack of self respect Arab women have for themselves. In Islam race nation dialect don’t matter, but in Arab culture these woman neer themselves will see themseles outside their dialect but its ok for even arab man to marry non-muslim. Look at Turks, Pakistanis, Malaysians they never ever marry non-Muslim woman, have second wives, marry and keep secret wife.

    THe problem is we arabs are the worst enemies of ourselves. Most of us cannot tell the difference between our religion and our culture. ALl talk and none aaction

  9. The point, Amal, is to make everyone fear THOSE Muslims and Arab. as if wife battery exist solely in KSA and is a must when married to Saudis. Penny where the heck does it say in the Quran you can have anal sex?! Its clearly stated to be forbidden, get you facts straight.

  10. super devoika, on December 17, 2012 at 6:55 pm said: “…. actually in the Quran it clearly says that a man and a woman can have sex as they want except for anal sex… This is forbidden in Islam…”.

    Could you enlighten us as to which specific chapter and which specific verse in the koran, but without the interpretation within the parentheses. I know there are varying hadiths on this, both for and against this act. Thanks ….

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  12. I am German and am married to a Saudi man (and believe it or not, we are very happy!). Reading about all these sad stories, which unfortunatley happen, I just felt that I need to leave a comment so people can see that not all Saudi men are the same. Unfortunately, the ones that are irresponsible and leave women/children behind ruin the reputation of their whole country. I have been living and working in Qatar for over 6 years now and when I met my husband 4 years ago, I was really well informed about the religion/culture and knew exactly what to expect getting involved with this guy. When we decided to get married, I made my point clear that it has to be the legal way. Saying this, it means he needed the approval of the Saudi government which took us 2(!!!) years to get. It was not easy and it was frustrating at times but we did fight for our love. Before we got married, I also go all his original papers as his birth certificate and a letter that states that he is single (we needed it for the German embassy). We also discussed the fact, that I will never want to move and live in Saudi (as the rules are very harsh, especially for us women who grew up in the western culture) and that I will not cover except for family visits to Saudi. In my case, luckily it worked well and my husband stood up in front of his family, left his country and job and relocated to Qatar. His dad didn’t speak to him for almost a year, as they didn’t approve him of marrying a “foreigner”, but my husband was strong and looking back, makes me proud as I know it is very uncommon and difficult for an arab man, to go against his family. I would lie if i say that we never had problems, as a marriage itself is never easy, so imagine getting married to someone from a complete difficult culture! ;o))) But what is the secret is to communicate openly from the beginning and you have to be aware, that BOTH have to do their part to make it work.

    I wish all left behind women a lot of strenght and inshallah, justice will come your way. For sure, you all deserve better than what happened to you.

  13. Super devojka thanks to spread the truth…

  14. I know this story is true for many ( except they havn’t killed themselves yet!!).
    I m married to a saudi, very happily , we lived for a brief time in saudi but the one thing we had was approval, his family still doesn’t like it, but they have no choice. it depends on the man but i think for him to be strong he needs to have been weaned away fromt het society.

    as for spouse abuse after taking a 2ns wife, its more common that people let out, we have 2 such instances in our extended family. and women need to be aware of it. it’s no enmeic to saudi but in saudi there is not much recourse for the women, that’s the big difference.
    elsewhere you can get out, here you are done for…

  15. Radha,I get what you trying to say and women should be careful in their spouse choice but domestic violence is an alarming phenomenon not just in KSA but it is actually much worst in developed countries despite all the women’s shelter NGOs etc so it is very unfair for the article to state sentences such as The Saudi man has many faces…this is outright prejudice and extreme generalization. Domestic violence must be addressed globally even in the developed countries as according to a 2011 UN report,countries such as New Zealand still has an alarmingly high cases of wife abusing. i would welcome any initiative to make women more educated about their rights and future but i abhor careless stereotyping that is prevalent in this article. From my experience, men from any culture can be nice or n ass%#le.

  16. Totally agreewith mrsB, well said!

  17. I also found this to be stereotyped and a bit racist.

    Women who are in relationships with men from KSA and/or other similar countries in the region should do their research and talk it over with their significant other. If he acts like he is hiding something, he probably is. If he is extremely open with her, she’s met his family who are constantly asking how she is doing, and they have openly talked about any fears both may have about moving to KSA/other country in the region, then it’s probably legit.

    However, I’d say that men from that region who fall in love with an American woman may not want to move back home because they may feel an American (or other western) culture is best suited to him and her. Of course, with a lot of the guys from KSA here on scholarships from companies, government, etc. they may be obliged to go back or pay a hefty fine, etc.

    I don’t expect the “typical” guy from KSA and the “typical” woman from the USA to fall in love with each other because most people don’t want to experience a life outside of what they are familiar with and bridging cultures is not easy; it takes more work.

  18. Of course, I’m also a bit more sensitive to stereotyping, racism and other forms of prejudice because it seems like I deal with it on a regular basis nowadays. People should view the individual based on what the individual has done, not based on what others with the same religion, skin color, etc. have done. And when I say I’ve been dealing with prejudice, I am referring to within the US with regards to my Arab husband. One memory that still sticks with me is that a family member once told me, “You know he’s just going to leave you one day and go back to his country.” And if you knew my husband and his love for me AND my (our) country at all, you’d know that isn’t true- except maybe to visit. So I don’t condone any form of prejudice, especially when it is meant to come across in a general way about a given culture and group of men as “truth”.

  19. Super Devoika, I hate to break it to you but … most Arab men are disrespectful, lying, evil scum. They have no idea why they should have any respect for foreign women. Lying is in their blood in every area of life – not just women and sex relationships. Jobs, salaries, contracts – just everything.

    My opinion is based on two years of work spent in the Arabian Gulf.

    Go ahead and try to disprove me – I will dismiss everything you’re saying. And in the meantime, I have a question: are you Russian or are you Arab? For someone who speaks like an Arab woman (you said “Look at your own culture and your own men” when talking about Americans), you have given yourself a Russian alias. Russian aliases won’t hide you.

    At least, Americans have figures – and they have published the figures you cited because they are honest. Do Arabs have any figures reflecting the reality in their world? NO!!! You learn the truth only after you go to their world or only from those who have gone there, suffered and returned!

    Yes, men are men everywhere, but the men outside Saudi Arabia have much more honesty running in their blood. They are not taught that women are nothing but walking vaginas from Day One like your Arab friends. And for the record, I am not an American woman, so you can’t accuse me of defending my own people. But as far as Arabs are concerned, they are nothing but wastes of space with no moral compass at all.

  20. I am an American and strong feminist with an Arab man and I wish there were more “normal” stories out there.

    I hate that my guy is stereotyped and judged simply for being Arab.

    There are just so many stories of those who have over come abuse, which is a reality and what people should be aware of, but it would be nice to just see some stories about everyday life and everyday struggles, too.

    I really loved “Crescent: A Novel” by Diana Abu-Jaber because it was beautifully written and not a story about a woman being abused.

  21. @Reality Check,
    Your prejudice shows in the statement, ” But as far as Arabs are concerned, they are nothing but wastes of space with no moral compass at all.” There are different cultures under the title “Arab”, and while all the cultures under that heading are similar in some respects, they are not the same. People within a given country can be taught different things, too.

  22. No; Arabs and Westerners are not the same but they can cement new bridges together. I choose to take on all aspects of our dual societies – the good, bad, ugly and magnificent. The bad and ugly was demonstrated in the *fictional *post I wrote. The good and magnificent were the life I had with my late Saudi husband. If anyone cares to search my blog, they’ll find many positive and glowing posts about the bests of relationships between Saudis and non-Saudis.

    On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:23 PM, American Bedu

  23. @ Reality Check. I’m not hiding behind anything but maybe you are blinded by your own prejudice that you can’t even think that I might be both an Arab and something else, in this case a Macedonian (not Russian). I’m the result of an inter-racial marriage and I don’t need to explain myself to you or try to prove anything.
    I’m sorry that there are people who are still so full of hatred and prejudice like you.
    @ Honest Abe. Please do your own research. I’m not going to do it on your behalf.
    @American Bedu. I’m sorry that I can’t understand why would you choose to write a *fictional* post that demonize and stereotype Saudis when you have lived a *real* life with a Saudi but opposite to your *fictional* portrayal.

  24. Applause to Super Devoika! well said! Prejudice is an ugly face of backwards thinking people despite living in a developed world.

  25. Ms Carol, you are doing a great injustice to your late husband (and my husband not to forget someone’s fathers or husbands) by stating the things you have stated. Your husband was a Saudi and to say Saudi men have many faces, Saudi men are masters of secrets etc are terrible to say the least. Why you chose to write a made-up story is beyond me since you have lived a wonderful life with your late husband and have known many many women who are.happily married to their Saudis. If your intention was to prepare young women in making relationship decisions, than it could have been done more carefully without prejudice. My own experience as an undergrad student before has shown me any men from all nations can be nice or liars. I studied in an international university with students from over 100 different countries and the story is always the same. Girl fall in love, if lucky she ends up happily with her boy. If girl allow lust and emotions to manage her decisions, she might end up broken hearted by boy, any race. The advice we need to give our girls is to prioritize their education and manage their lives wisely and not put all their eggs in the basket and refrain from prejudice. There are more good Saudis than there are bad just like Americans, Russians, Europeans and Asians etc.

  26. The sad fact is that those of us who have/had good relationships are in the minority. The majority end in severe heartbreak. I know women who had worse (short) lives than what I depicted in the fictional content. This blog is not all about rose colored glasses. It is also about realities that can and do take place.

    My late husband always gave his full support to whatever I wrote and so many times made suggestions in regards to topics. While we were so fortunate, he always supported me that foreign women needed to know couples like us were a rare minority and their eyes should be wide open.

    Now everyone just knock off any personal attacks or character insinuations against me and never challenge my love for my late husband. Trust me, when I am feeling very under the weather my tolerance level is nil and right now I’m definitely under the weather.

    On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 9:54 PM, American Bedu

  27. AB:

    Sounds like an interesting book. I am always amazed by your stamina. 🙂

  28. In this Wikileaks cable, valuable insight about the life of Western women married to some Saudis.
    http://wikileaks.org/cable/2006/04/06JEDDAH302.html#

  29. Snowman, your link showed how apparently all Saudi men lie to their foreign wives, and it’s interesting how it ended with the observation that the Saudi husbands had no respect for their American wives. I think this disrespect is the basis for much suffering, and for the allowance which, (especially Saudi) men give themselves to lie to women.

    This link will give interesting unbiased information about American women married to Saudi men.
    http://www.meforum.org/520/us-department-of-state-marriage-to-saudis

  30. Strange One: My so-called “prejudice” is based on two years of abuse, abuse, abuse of my basic human and labour rights in the Arabian Gulf and don’t even start me on the never-ending abuse of other nationalities, which I met there. I witnessed and listened to sad stories all the time – and that’s because I never closed my eyes like you. I am a European woman and the people who shared their stories with me were Indians, Sri Lankans and other Asians. The managers were Arabs and the business owners were Arabs, so all the abuse was carried out by Arabs. Enough said. For the record, just because you are European doesn’t mean that you are treated as “high class” – that depends on the part of Europe you come from. Western Europeans were treated well and paid extremely well. Eastern Europeans were treated badly, paid small salaries and seen as a source of sex even when nothing could have been further than their minds.

    From my experience, I know that people (or women) who reply in the way you did to me are usually deeply involved with the Arabian world – they either live there or are married to an Arab person. I have come to realize that if you marry an Arab, you agree to lose a piece of your soul for ever because you decide to see good things in a world so irredeemable that words can fail even the best of writers.

    Super Devoika: I honestly feel very, very, very sorry for you. With your mixed origins, you have no choice but advocate prejudice against the West. You will be for ever an advocate of the most abusive and exploitative region that this world has ever had. As for hatred and prejudice, your comment is so full of it against the West that I think you are the last person to teach me about my world and tolerance.

    Your mother didn’t do you any favour by giving you an Arab father – you will never know what the truth about your father’s world is; you will be for ever blinded by family loyalty and you will never experience the beauty of the free world because you have already decided to close your eyes and become the apologist of a region whose mentality is still in the 15th century and will never get out of there.

    Ten years ago, I had the choice to marry an Arab, too, but I decided not to go ahead because I didn’t want my children to become like you. I did the best thing in the world and now my daughters will never have anything to do with men who treat them like crap. I will warn them about the dangers of the Middle East and Middle Eastern men. I will tell them about all my experiences that were inflicted on me for two years by Arabs. I will tell them all the stories I heard from my Asian co-workers. Unlike you, they will have a choice. They won’t be embittered cross-breeds who will never have a clear place in the world.

    American Bedu: I think the idea of building a bridge between Saudi and the West is complete utopia because the Saudis have no respect whatsoever for the West. Look at the story above and look at how they treat our women! We are nothing to them! They simply enjoy themselves at the expense of girls like Amina, break hearts, wreck lives and don’t even think this is a very evil thing to do! What the Saudis actually deserve is to be banned from all Western universities, including American ones. They think we are nothing but object of pleasure and secret ridicule. What hit me the most while I read your blog is how they ingratiate themselves with their Western lovers’ families without having any real respect for these people and their daughter!

    It seems that the Saudi philosophy regarding Western women is “the means justify the end”. They enter fake marriages and try to integrate themselves with the woman’s family, though in most cases they have no intention whatsoever to make this real. Everything for the sex – maybe they should bring their own slaves along, so that they don’t wreck anybody’s life over here.

    I don’t care if some of you will call me “racist” or not – I have seen the Arabian world from the position of a person who wasn’t privileged at all and I have suffered too much from the prejudice of the dozens of Arab men who thought that just because I was an attractive white woman I was a fair game. If I could save a dollar for every time I was approached in the street and asked to become somebody’s girlfriend, I wouldn’t have to work for the rest of my life. This NEVER happens in the West – most men don’t speak to you in the street unless they know you. Making sex offers to women you don’t know at all is the Arabian specialty par excellence – and that’s because the Arabs have no shame and think that the women from other cultures are nothing but flesh on legs that came to their world alone.

    I rest my case. I am definitely not going to fight with half-Arab women whose European mothers didn’t have the brains to make the right decision for the future and with women who are married to Arabs and will never experience the Arabian world as an expatriate woman trying to work for an honest living in a world where earning a good wage is impossible without becoming the lover of some local animal. There is no room for this kind of drama in my life and I can live perfectly happily without it because I want to stay as healthy as possible.

  31. @Reality Check,
    You are indeed racist. There are good and bad in every people. I agree the Saudi system is a human rights travesty- but not all Saudi’s are bad, nor does every woman who marries one “agree to lose a piece of your soul” nor are all the children of such unions “embittered cross-breeds”.

    Anyways you really do make the case dysfunctional, judgmental people of limited understanding can happen anywhere.

  32. deleted by administrator

  33. Good read, Snowman.

    On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:11 AM, American Bedu

  34. AB,
    Sorry if my comment bothered you, but I am just speaking my mind. If I think something sounds racist, that’s my opinion. I am not saying that it has anything to do with your character or anything like that (because I think you have good moral character, etc.). I just happen to disagree with you on this. If it was a non-fictional report, it wouldn’t bother me as much because then there would be truth to it. As much as you talk about building bridges, this type of post really seems to promote the opposite. But again, that’s my opinion.

    Of course “couples like us” are rare because cultural boundaries are not easily crossed. Ironically, I think I’d only ever be happy in a cross-cultural relationship because I need to be with someone who has experienced multiple cultures.

    @Reality Check,
    I agree with Sandy. I got stopped in the street once or twice when I lived in the UK, and also in the US. It depends what part of town you are in. Although I got stopped in the street in the US by a gang member one time, he really was just interested in dating me which was kinda cute, but I wasn’t interested. I can’t tell you the amount of times I got asked out on the bus in the US because it’s way too many.

    If one day my husband and I have children, they won’t be any more of a “cross-breed” than I am. And inshallah (god-willing), they won’t be bitter, but that is not a decision I can make for them. I can only be the best parent I can be. Additionally, my husband would be a good father because he has a good, kind heart, intelligent mind, wisdom, and many other qualities that are not easily found in this world.

    I don’t have a clear place in this world, but it doesn’t really bother me; it just means I get to have more fun than those with their lives and stations in life already mapped out.

  35. Strange One,

    My post is somewhat exaggerated as far as dancing off the roof but all the rest is based on real situations. You have never been to Saudi or married to a Saudi national. They are not all horrible but women need to have their eyes wide open.

    You responded but my comment was not actually directed at you.

    On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 5:01 PM, American Bedu

  36. Dear AB,

    Why are you against suadi culture?90 percent of your topics are full of negativity you just see one side.give me one good example or aspect of western culture i can write a book on its dark side .so hypocyretic western culture they say they protect n give rights to women .well you give us fiction i give you a real story my cousin is stuck there her husband a local had snatch 3 month child from her when she went to authorties since she wasnt the local they said they cannot do any thing without fathers permission child cannot be handed to her.In her pregnancy he used to touture her alot she suffer post preg depression.There issues started when he asked her she cant leave the house because only wrong women leave the house.He torture her even fr basic needs like water electricity etc.
    Please dont marry a west man they trap you on the honey trap of rights .

  37. Reality Check, I’m sorry you suffered and had bad experiences but don’t project your life onto others. Its like you almost want everyone else to experience what you have. Not fair at all! My husband is Arab and I have no idea what you’re talking about with losing a piece of my soul lol or it being a shame to have children with an Arab mind. You ARE racist and that’s sad. There is so many good people in the world and you’ve written off millions just because they’re Arab.

  38. Mrs. Asghar,

    The blog has been in existence since 2006. If you read through it you will find that it is balanced, mixed and pretty equal. If I were against Saudi culture I never would have married a Saudi. The blog is not about Western culture; you can blog on that topic if you so desire. Last but not least, read the blog, particular selecting the category interviews. Those are all real stories by real people.

    On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 5:40 PM, American Bedu

  39. @ American Bedu, I hope that you didn’t misunderstand my comment. As I said before I’m sorry that I can’t understand why you wrote this post.
    @ Reality Check, your words are full of hate that I won’t reply to them or try to comment on them. You are so eager to pass judgment on other people even my mum when you have no knowledge of how they lived or why they made their own free choices. Please refrain from insulting my mother who is a great strong woman.
    @ American Bedu, I wonder how do you feel when you read such comments as those of Reality Check where she not only labelled Arabs in the worst labels ever, but insults us fellow women who only want to live as we want and choose to live.

    No culture is superior on the other…

  40. Reality Check, the truth is you’re a racist and a poorly brought up person to even suggest the things you said. You even when so far as to insult her European mother for marrying an Arab thus resulting in a “daughter like her”. What the heck! You have serious drama issues and as Amal rightfully said, don’t project your miserable life onto others. I stand by my opinion that this topic is far from *the truth* and is just straight-forward racist for the careless statements it made. And as Strangeone correctly mentioned that this kind of writing does nothing for bridging gaps but in fact steers the feeble (or already prejudice) minds towards hatred and fear. It is true this blog has been in existence since 2006 with various topics about Saudi but of late this blogger has been writing more and more prejudice topics not only about Saudi but about Islam (Islamic law still allows babies to be married off??!?). That is my opinion and observation so I had to speak out.

  41. That link you provided Aafke is a sensible, quality reading and the correct way of providing information and preparing any girls about cross cultural marriages to Saudi. No prejudice, no blatant generalization. Just facts.

  42. Aalia, your comment seems to make a huge effort in distancing the West and the Arabs. While some Arabs watch Jerry Springer and associate them with the reality in America on the other hand some Americans watch biased-Fox news and poorly written Hollywood scripts of Arabs and associate these ‘infos’ with the reality in Arab world. BUT we know that even if there are these two groups of ignorant people, there is no room for racism and prejudice anywhere anytime anyhow and just because aacording to you, we don’t know how it feels as it didn’t happen to us, well maybe you didn’t put the possibility that it might have occured to us by othet nationalities but we got over it and knew better than to preach discrimination. No one was accusing AB of dishonoring her late husband but the fact remains the article was accusing Saudis as men of many faces which includes mine and her husband. I object!

  43. When one chooses to blog you have to have a thick skin. Even as a commentor, a thick skin is required. No one is ever going to agree completely with other. That’s just a simple fact of life.

    On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 7:58 PM, American Bedu

  44. @Mrs. Asghar, you are talking about true stories about the Westerns when in fact some of your own people are doing the same as your real story… Every where are good and bad people, not all the people are angels some are actually a real jerks… True story and fact is that am stock with my son in a country without being able to travel because his father decide that i lost our freedom when he signed my son’s documents, so we cannot travel because this guy doesn’t allow us, my son’s father is from Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he is not a western at all, so with this you can compare your cousin husband with mine!!!

    I fully think that Carol wrote this article without being racist, the only thing she wanted is to share a fictional story that could be reality… I do agree and think that these kind of stories must be known by any one dating a Saudi or any Arab, or any other culture.

  45. Dear mandre,
    I agree with you.but read the last para of article from the suadi man has different faces and honestly tell me isnt it a bit biased i did not read any line saying that cultural differences does matter whether its arab suadi or west man.the para is totally against one particalur culture.yes good n bad men are everywhere but then it should be mentioned in this article.i write never marry a western just to make realizes how does it feel.I am not even suadi but i feel the unjust done above. UNFAIR

  46. @mandre, I’d say your husband is a poor excuse for a husband but I’d say the Saudi laws enable him. There are bad men everywhere but no where else does the law support them so much

  47. Yeah Radha except in i guess where UK need a permission letter from the father to take ur child even if the husband is involved in some illegal matters and mother have a prove of this.this is not fiction even !please people dont critcize one particular culture for the act of oneor two particular being.Every culture law etc of a country has its plus and negatives.Accept it openly.we should not be judgemental on whole culture because of some individual acts.

  48. I do believe the Saudi man has many faces. It is inherent due to the culture in which he has grown up. It’s not meant as a negative but a fact of the culture.

    On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 1:22 PM, American Bedu

  49. AB, it is a pity that someone who is wise like you would be so adamant to make stupid generalization as such. To be fair, young hot blooded Western men aren’t so innocent either. Many faces is just one of the many ilk these men possess…to get into the pants of young girls despite all the laws and feminist movements. We can twist the facts left and right but unlike you I’ll continue to teach my daughter and nieces to treasure themselves and to be careful with men, NOT to be a prejudice person maligning others with evil hurtful vague *facts*.

  50. Mrs. B,

    We will agree to disagree on this topic.

  51. Dear Ab,
    This show you have close your mind on one and not ready to open mindly accept the realities.You can find these types of cultural conflict stories in every part of the world.Come on give the name of one country or culture in which these stories do not exsist.please spreading negativity on fictionals conclusion ….. Be practical

  52. And dear AB you say its fact that saudi man inherent that from there culture wow:) dont you know what western men inherent from there culuture.From childhood to maturity and so on.To use women as tissue paper changing girl friends like changing shirts.Some facts these are.

  53. Highly exagerrated narrative….I wonder though: why this obsession with putting down mixed marriages and portreying western women as naive and dumb, while saudi men all cunning and lying?
    I know many very smart- young! – ladies that it is very hard to take them for a ride no matter the nationality of the man, that I doubt they would end up in such a fictional scenario no matter the nationality of the man.
    Yes there are cultural differences, but there are so many signs to know if a man is really serious.

  54. A few more comments:

    On the fact that Saudi men are secretive: all people living in Saudi become secretive after a while, whether saudi men, women or even foreigners! It is the way the society functions. That is not necessarily something bad in my opinion.

    Double faced? I think not. Yes, there is a divide between personal and public life, but that does not count as being multiple faced.

    Some that do switch between different ‘ faces’ in a cold manner are generally not nice people and that is NOT the majority of the saudi population.

    On the fact that some women dont have permission and come on an umrah visa- that is totally their fault! Sorry, if they dont have the basic intelligence to deal with immigration, then who is to blame?
    Yes, such a husband did not arrange things properly, but hey! why did she accept? Because she is naive?? No, because she is simply too irresponsible and careless even for her own security.

    Such women could end up in any country with the wrong visas and as in the case of the umrah visa they would happily go along and in the end get deported.

  55. super devoika,

    At the end of the day, what goes on behind the privacy of one’s four bedroom walls, between husband and wife or consenting adults, is nobody’s business, whether anal or oral sex. But when one decides to make a religion out of sexuality, then there is a big problem.

    One must wonder how much time Allah spends pondering silly questions regarding sexual positions and sexual acts? Wonder if Allah thinks about anything else? I am sure he has far more meaningful things to worry about, like War and Peace, than such trivial and idiotic stuff like sexual positions.

    There is a saying in Malay: Wahai! Kamu hanya hafal Koran. Tetapi kami tidak faham setiap ayat dalam Koran. Which means: Salam! You have only memorized Koran. But you do not understand each and every verse in Koran.

  56. According to me, anyone who makes such a blanket statement about any race or group or people, or a nation is a racist.
    If anything is multi-faced, its the american foreign policy.

  57. Sarah,

    Using your own definition above, then Allah’s/Mohammed’s “foreign policy” was the greatest racist, multi-faced and multi-fascist blanket statements of all tymes and places. Koran and hadiths are full of such blanket statements.

    Like slay the infidels whereever ye find them. Like jews are apes and pigs. Here is a classic and racist blanket “foreign policy” statement from the Koran:

    And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease – then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do. (Koran 8:39)

  58. X, your comment clearly shows your misinterpreatation of the quran. You have read it correctly with understanding, you will understand why I am saying so. Those things which you meantioned are far from being blanket statement. I suggest you read it and find the history behind it.
    Thanks.

  59. I meant “If you have read it correctly ….”

  60. Sarah,

    Other cults (White Aryan Nation, Nation of Islam, etc), similar to Islam, give exactly the same reasons you gave: misinterpretation,
    read our manifestos and understand the historical reasons behind their racism and bigotry, blah blah blah.

  61. if other ppl say same thing, does not mean its bad thing or its wrong. Why not try to read for yourself.

  62. Sarah:

    The history behind it was written two hundred to three hundred years after the alledged event based on the telephone game. Out of a million or so hadith all which were written again two to three hundreds years after the fact it was then widdled it down to 2000 or so and even in that they have weak to strong. Talk about absurd and much of it has inhuman and derogatory remarks about other races, sexes, etc and incites rape and murder. There is a history of the Quran which shows a process of codification in the 9th century but Muslims don’t what to hear this either even if the facts are there this is the similar problems of Christians as well as Jews. Dont confuse the issues with fact just bring on the fairytales.

    By the way the current Quran is one that was adopted in Egypt in 1912 or so and become standardized.

    You should research it as it parallells many religious stories of deception and destruction.

    All a bunch of tripe.

  63. Actually I was not talking about the history behind it but the STORY behind it. Yes I did mention “history” and that was my mistake. I meant the story of the ayyahs mentioned by X. And I was referring to the Quran and not the hadith.

    By the way, there is no current Quran; its the same original one.

  64. Sarah:

    No there is no original Quran. It doesn’t exist and the current one has a history. Many scholars have shown that. Just because you choose not to acknowledge that fact is your right but not one based on fact or reality.

  65. Then tell me, what is the difference between the original Quran and the current one. I don’t understand what you mean that there is no original Quran. Where are the regerences, please.

  66. X, that verse is spoken in narration and is referring to the Quraysh. Allah gave Mohammed permission to fight them back. They already had made attempts on his life and were planning others. They were very violent and aggressive to him. So Allah gave permission for war. It is not referring to just go out and kill anyone in the road these days. It’s a narration. And Bigstick there is only one Quran. Our proof is that ppl have memorized it for thousands of years. You could take someone from anytime and have them recite with someone today it’s the same Book.

  67. Amal:

    No you cannot and you have no proof to your statement. There are numerous manuscripts and different variants and that has been shown and studied by scholars. I can state as well for thousands of years people have proof that the unicorn of neba exists because ppl memorized it………..oh but by the way I am unable to produce said person from even a hundred yeasr but believe me even thought the written text doesn’t support my statement nor does any historical markers support may statement.

    Sarah:

    I sent you infomation but apparently it is lost in cyber space. I will wait until tomorrow and if not there I will resend it. Then I will await your response.

  68. Sure, bigstick1, looking forward to it.

  69. Yes there is. Memorizing Quran has been going on since the beginning all over. Now if someone had changed it don’t you think the older generation would have said this is not correct. After all, you have what 3 generations alive at a time and they all recite the same Quran and have been for thousands of years. No one would sit by and let someone change what is sacred without saying anything, I assure you.

  70. Yes Quran is a miracle its the only book that will remain thesame go n look the oldest manuscripts its learned its inside the one who learned so it cannot be and never will change.You said many scholars had show well different manuscripts its not true.That different version which they claim to be quran is just conspiracies and thats why they not only conflicts but come n go while Quran remain the same recite and learned.

  71. And if we all stick to the topic rather then criticizing one particular culture religion it will be great.Specially with lack of knowledge.Dont just start blaming religion.

  72. Mrs. A;

    Actually I am not the one that went off on the topic and the site you prove gives information that is contrary to scholars including many muslims scholars on that particular manuscript. I also don;t just criticize one particular religion or culture, I actually taken on others.

    IRFI is a site that is known for its extremist views and its apologist stances then uses unreliable data to stake claims such as the 19 years after the fact on the manuscript which numerous scholars would wholly disagree with.

    Next the quran is not a miracle as there is no original quran in existence and what is in existence is simply parchment and ink nothing more as anyone could do that no God need apply.

  73. The miracle of Quran is not only it being in its original state but its wordings and meanings, predictions, codes …etc. One of the things that non muslims envy is the Quran – that it is in its original text. Numerous attempts have been made to change or produce a xchapter like it and no one succeeded. The challenge still stands to make even one ayyah like it.

  74. The Quran remains the same since Prophet Muhammad’s time until now. Its preservation in itself is a miracle, sure some “scholars” states otherwise but I wish these same scholars would enlighten us of the difference in today’s Quran and the ones they “found”. From my knowledge, the Quran we have today is the exact copy of the oldest copy of Quran that once belonged to Uthman bin Affan which is now placed in a library in Tashkent along with the Sanaa Manuscript found in Yaman. It is amazing when atheist would blame Muhammad our prophet for the “violent” verses but when it comes to the scientific part such as human embryology, earth rotating on orbits and Big Bang, they suddenly change their mind and claim this Quran was improvised lately since there is n way an illiterate man could know anything about Bing Bang!

  75. I agree with you Sarah, I cannot imagine where Aafke gets her sources about our Prophet SAW. She’s really just insulting us Muslims (insulting our morality and our intelligence) by saying the one man we all regard in the highest esteem would be such a scoundrel, as if we would follow a rogue. We are not like Nazis and such. The prophet would be suffering serious character problems if on one hand he terrorizes citizens yet on the other hand he commands us to be good to animals even prohibiting us from striking the animal’s face and let’s not forget this same man commands us to avoid arguments (I fail that here).

  76. Mrs B:

    They have……………… you again dismiss the scholars and nowhere in the Quran does it give scientific exchange that are accurate on any of the items nor does it talk about some of what you go on about without mental acrobats. In addition, parts that you do go on about were well known prior to Islam in pre-Islamic times such as that incomplete description of the embryo process as well as the earth being round. There is no scientific knowledge that had not been previously discussed in early times in the Quran it was just plagiarized into the text.

    The Samarkand Kufic Quran (also known as the Uthman Quran, Samarkand codex, Samarkand manuscript and Tashkent Quran) is a 8th century manuscript Quran written in the territory of modern Iraq in the Kufic script. It is believed by local Uzbek Muslims that it belonged to the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan and along with the Sana’a manuscripts is the oldest Quran in the world.[1] Today it is kept in the Hast Imam library, Tashkent, Uzbekistan.

    Note: 8th century; in other words it was not written 19 years after the fact.

    Next many scholars have broken down numerous differences between existing manuscripts. All that is need is just one discrepancy and that has already been done and proven.

    Sarah:

    Wrong it has a history and it has been discussed and the timelines differ. So much of your and Mrs. B statements are standardized verbiage that adds nothing and is quite frankly tiresome rote standardized memorization of fallacies by ignorant clerics and Islamic propaganda that spews worthless and meaningless and unsubstantiated statements.

  77. There’s no problem at all, it is clear from the chronology of the verses in the Quran that when Mohammed was in a weak position and in need of followers he was playing nice, for example telling people they should release slaves, and that everybody can have theor own religion, but when he was in power he changed the game:
    He murdered a whole tribe, condemned the women to sexual slavery, he made people into slaves and used them to trade, gain followers, etc. When Mohammed was in power he changed the idea that everybody should be free in religion to attack and kill the infidels until they submit and ”convert”.

    And they realized it at the time, that’s why they put in the rules of abrogation, the later verses abrogate the earlier verses.
    I can’t believe I have to explain this to Muslims… Have you ever read your own magic book???

    I have never heard of anybody being jealous of the Quran because it is somehow unchanged over the centuries. That’s probably because nobody outside of Ilsma is.
    And that’s because it isn’t of course, Islamic history and ancient qurans prove that that is not the case.
    I know it is currently the fashion for Islamic scholars to make these stories up, but you cannot denie actual facts. The earliest Qurans found show pages have been washed and rewritten. Islamic history tells how Uthman destroyed all versions of the Quran except the one he liked, and the great controversy that caused at the time.

    I don’t really blame you, if you are capable of taking the most important factors deciding your life on ”faith”, (ea, believe anything on no reasonable proof whatsoever), you would believe these imaginary tales too.
    But, as devout Muslims, the very least you should do is read your own magic book from beginning to end.
    I think this is a greatest weakness of believers in any religoin, they never read their own books.
    On the other hand, once they do a lot of believers realize the truth and become atheist

  78. But you have only said words that you failed to prove, bigstick1. Try to have a meaningful dialog and not bad discussion. quran is written many times but the words are same – nothing is changed. There are so many printed daily. And yes sometimes there are printing mistakes which are withdrawn from circulation. This is does not mean that Quran has been changed – no way.

    There are quran written in different scripts, yes. This also does not mean that meanings are changed.

    You have yet to show 2 “Qurans” that are different.

  79. Sarah:

    I am having a meaningful dialogue. The manuscripts are not from modern times but from 8 and 9th century and each differ in some aspects. Now the one I refer to that is currently standardized was the one that was adopted in Egypt in it then 1924 instead of 1912.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_the_Quran_holy_book_first_recorded

    Note there are three answers. The only one you fit into will be the last answer which provides nothing but that is what we believe based upon no historical or textual markers or foundation.

  80. Sarah:

    I provided you with a website on the varying manuscipts in the post that got lost along with some explanation.

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

    I also advised that I have some problems with it assessment of timelines however it provides some overview of what I am talking about.

  81. Let’s get back to the story.
    This story is not at all unreasonable as far as the facts go.
    It maybe doesn’t emphasize enough the fact that as a woman one is completely powerless in Saudi Arabia. If you don’t have a powerful and rich family backing you, which a foreign wife doesn’t have of course, you are screwed the moment your dear husband changes his mind, or dies.

    The most important fact about this story is that a western woman is at the complete mercy of her husband once she in is SA. She has no rights anymore, he has been demoted from a rational sentient being with human rights in her own country, to a ”dependent” of her husband. A being without any legal powers, a piece of property. As long as things between husband and wife are ok this is no problem, but the moment something goes wrong the wife will find out the extend of her nothingness.

    As far as the actions of this imaginary man; of course there are nice men in SA, same as everywhere else. but power corrupts. The absolute power men have over women in SA corrupts a lot of the Saudi men.

    So the story is valid, the criticism against Saudi culture is valid. It is clear a lot of people here don’t like it. This is because this story hurts their innate feelings of justice. So they need to look to this culture and realize it’s the culture and the laws which are bad, not carol for writing a story.

    Put the blame where it belongs, in the (artificial) culture of Saudi Arabia, and the nasty interpretation of the religion.

    Saudi’s culture has been changed for the worse in the last decades, no reason not to change it back for the better.
    Islam gives enough leads one can cherry-pick to improve women’s status and rights, find these passages and make SA a better place for women.
    Don’t blame Carol, and do something constructive instead if you don’t like this story.

  82. Thanks for the links, Bigstick. I will go thru them. Bit of a hurry now.

  83. Actually, I don’t know why people get upset as AB clearly stated it was a fictional book. Now if she stated it was real………well ……….I would still have to say based upon what I know of Saudi and women that the story could be possible and perfectly acceptable by their standards. I doubt many saudi’s would shed one tear on the western woman.

  84. Sarah, many of the old Qurans are different, and when investigated they show the text has been wiped and re-written.
    You need to let go of this fairy tale that the Quran is unchanged, because it wasn’t. It was changed, re-ordered, re-written, etc. Like any other ancient text.
    You should be building your religion of ideals and good intentions. Not on imaginary stuff the scholars made up and which has already be disproven.

  85. So much of my talking is standardized verbiage, Bigstick? You copy and pasted that Tashkent Quran topic from Wiki, the least reliable source thanks to any tom dick n harry can gain access to it.

  86. People are upset due to the prejudice she has. If they were factual stories, still no prejudice is ok except by ugly racists. You want to see ugly actions, what should we say about American women than after this incident http://ibnlive.in.com/news/us-woman-charged-with-hate-crime-murder-over-indians-killing/313042-2.html
    Prejudice isjust stupid!

    Sorry Aafke, your ‘facts’ are wrong since even after our prophet came into “power” he still preached only goodness. Get your facts straight and thank you but we Muslims know our own “magic book” but you need to re learn history, not from islamawareness.com though.

  87. There are reliable books on the subject, you should get and read Gerd Puin, The origins of the quran.

    And Luxemburg, The Syro-Aramaic reading of the Quran

  88. Ahh the recycle of Puin…nice touch!

  89. Mrs B, I have never been to Islamawareness.com, I don’t need to, I have a quran. I have read it. You clearly have not.

  90. As regard to the Sana’a Mss, there is nothing “shocking” about its discovery. At most, it is claimed that there is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by 37. But this amounts to nothing, since it is permissable to place suras in any order in a partial mushaf. So this is hardly “news” or a “shocking” discovery.

    Moreover, after the publication of the Atlantic Monthly, Puin wrote a letter in which he revealed:

    “The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur’anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur’an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur’an published in Cairo in which is written:

    Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
    Quran next to Qrn
    Simahum next to Simhum

    In the oldest Yemeni Qur’anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common.”

    Prof. Azami comments:

    “This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin’s discoveries and making them a topic unworthy of further speculation.”

    Source: Puin’s letter and Prof. Azami’s comments cited from: M. M. Azami, The History of the Qur’anic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments, UK Islamic Academy, 2003 pp. 12

  91. Let’s get to the subject of the houris,( a non-arabic word btw), see-through, large breasted virgins with black pits for eyes. These are a mistranslation into Arabic, and originally meant ”Grapes”.
    If there is one mistake in the Quran then the whole edifice of a perfect never changed book falls down right?

  92. There are many qurans in the Saana collection which have been changed, not just one fragment. And after all, we allready know large parts of quranic verses have been destroyed by Uthman when he decided what should be in the Quran and what not.

    I really don’t see why this fiction of the Quran never have been changed is so important. Especially as it is already debunked.

  93. That is where you are wrong. I read my Quran, admittedly nowadays time to time but I listen to my husband’s recitation. In fact, this month alone he has been reading from the beginning and now almost finish mashallah. Coz he understands n knows the story already.

  94. I love it when you so confidently say “we” already know…just to make your statement more realistic. “We” need sources, Aafke, to say Uthman bin Affan destroyed etc…Very pushy. I have already addressed the Sanaa manuscript Bigstick.

  95. Mrs B:

    I have gone the the crime statistics for 2010 on hate crimes in the US with which we have approximately 300 million people.

    There were 197 victims of anti-muslim hate in the US out of 300 million people. You will excuse me when I say that, that does not equate to a society with Islamophobia. In addition, questioning or challenging dogma or pointing out inhuman aspects does not equate to Islamophobia. Try again.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/tables/table-1-incidents-offenses-victims-and-known-offenders-by-bias-motivation-2010.xls

  96. Mrs. B:

    Yes you stated as such but the article refutes what you state.

  97. What type of history do you read i guess the one you like to believe when Prophet SAW wins Makkah he clearly state that every one who enter Abu sufiyaan house or kabba is save.He could have punish all his enemies.

    Secondly a woman who used to throw garbage on Prophet SAW when she ws ill and help less on bed Prophet SAW went to her house and asked show kindness towards her.

    Some history!

  98. Mrs.B:

    One last thing. You and I have discussed numerous scholars and books supporting their viewpoints. I asssure you that I did not get my information from just websites, however as an overview of what is out there it is easier to find a website that provides a cursory amount on the subject matter and later it can be opened to discussion on debate or someplace else.

    I also told Sarah that the post was lost and I provided her with additional information. Should it not appear later I will ask her again once she has time.

  99. Wiki answers seriously do you think thats a relieble source.I provide that link just to tell you that there is the oldest manuscript still exsist in the world i thought surely you wont doubt on othman s manuscript to tell you that quran was not change will never be change that oldest version is the proof you said you read Quran you read tje miracle in that book and are you sure you think its man made not Allah?Every other noble book that have been changed you read it and you knows its man made because of the conflicts in the same book. I will give you endless sources n you will just find anyother excuse because you choose not to accept it.

    My final words Quran is never being n never will change whether you anyone in the world accept it or not truth is truth.it wont get harmed if some one believe it or not.

  100. Quite Frankly Wiki has many good points. Next you failed to read the comment above yours whereby I have gone into detail on this matter citing academics and scholars. In addition, I have now and in the past provide numerous source sites that did not include wiki. Now the fact that you choose to fixate on that one point is your issue not mine nor does your fixation create any dilemma for me due to your limited scope of the material provided and narrow reading abilities.

  101. Bigstick1,
    I think what you are talking about is the variant accents of the Quran. There were seven accents of reading the book and you may know that initially there were no vowels and marks used because the words were understood locally. However, when Islam spread around the neighboring countries, it became necessary to insert the vowels and marks so that the words are read more accurately. The seven accents were still there and they were preserved as the Prophet had read them.

    At one point all copies of the Quran were collected so that and an accurate one which could be read by all was made – not as correction, mind you, but to make it universal and all other copies” were done away with. This was done so that all copies are same and can be read in the same way. The words and meanings were never changed. And it was not re-written according to the wishes of Uthman. The collection was confirmed by people who were well versed and had committed the entire Book to memory. There were many hafidz al Quran and it was agreed by all.

    Even to this day, if you burn all copies, it can be reproduced with the original Words. This Book is preserved and it is the only book to be memorised as such. Its message is clear.

  102. In the end this is a discussion between those who believe in facts and those who believe in magic.
    I don’t believe in magic. I only believe in facts, so lets stop this.

    So lets go to the book, whatever it is, whoever wrote it, there are serious problems with the book. It doesn’t matter whether it is from a god or not. What matter is the bad stuff inside.

    The book is a bad book. It cannot come from a deity which is all knowing and moral. If it came from a deity then this deity is not a moral or ”good” deity.

  103. Sarah:

    No not what I am talking about but nice try I can see this if futile.

  104. in the end this discussion is between atheist who thinks they know it all (claiming them as facts) and Muslims. i have been warn of these type of pushy atheists who thrive on ending discussion with the ‘we know it all’ attitude. not surprising since the main issue at a conference sponsored by the Council of Secular Humanism was how publicly scornful of religion should they be?? talk about intellectuals, now that is to be scorned.

  105. Quick question to the pushy atheists – What good does it do to make people feel bad about their beliefs? so many atheists these days feel the need to attack anything to do with religion.

  106. MrsB, I have mentioned this before. We humans are born with the fitra and subconsciously have sense of the Creator. Why the atheists feel the need to attack is that they feel lost. They need to belong. They are going down and they want to drag the rest of us with them. They will only find peace if the accept their Creator.

  107. Bigstick while there were ‘only’ 197 victims what you failed to mention is the dramatic spike in numbers from recent years according to FBI stats and this is under reported even.

  108. please read this Mr B. and then tell me if Muslims crying victim is to be downgraded in your country. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/06/the-rise-of-hate-crimes-can-be-tied-directly-to-hateful-speech.html

  109. Oh my God, Bigstick you almost got away with that. What do you mean 197 victims out of 300 million people in America? Muslims make up only a small yet growing fraction of the 300 million. So that is a huge crime stats. Sheesh .

  110. Muslim are 2. 6 million people in the USA still an extremely small number of 197 people in the USA these are extremely small numbers and they exist with 297.4 million other americans. Next there were 125 offenders out of 300 million people and it is unknown how many of these were muslim on muslim hate crimes.

    I got away with nothing. Your argument based upon the stats is pathetic.

  111. Please take all discussions about the Quran to the debate page as they do not apply to this post.

    Thank you.

    On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 1:40 PM, American Bedu

  112. AB: Sorry just sent another post to this one but it was lost in cyber space and state the same that at the end. Let me know if you find it.

    Thanks.

  113. Hmm..penny you are right. I have been with a saudi student since 2011. He has raped me in the ass for the first two years. He also leaves me in the house to run about and do as he pleases. Not to mention being trapped in different cities where you know no one to be punched at by him. He also drove me back to the city my family lived to drop me off on the curb. What an angel?

  114. wow nicloe.
    you didnt want to leave all that abuse right from the begining. so he controlled you from the start to the finish. now you are back to where you would have been if you had left in the begining. was he your first abusive boyfriend or is this an ongoing cycle of men types. you should get some books to read on emotion and physical abuse. start loving yourself because you are full of patients and loyalty and can benefit others who deserver you. hope you have no kids. so i would stay away from men for a long time. make yourself finacially independent from everyone. good luck.

  115. Hi American Bedu I’m happy that there are ppl like you! I wish I see you and hug you! Saudi man they one I have for all most 10 years ooohhh dear me . I just say that Stay away from Muslim country man and guess what I’m Muslim who saying that unless you crazy in love and you loose your mind! But than don’t cry like my mother said to me ! The worst is Saudi man :(((

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