Saudi Arabia: Divorced Over Twitter

triple_talaq

camp11.com

 

In Saudi Arabia it seems that a man has a lot of leeway over the various reasons and ways he may divorce his wife.

For example, in early 2012 a Saudi man divorced his wife by loudspeaker as he could not tolerate the fact that she enjoyed watching a Turkish soap opera.

Saudi women have been notified of divorce by text message too.

The latest incident of a Saudi woman finding herself divorced by her husband has to do with the social media network, Twitter.  The Saudi husband, on learning that his wife had a Twitter account, gave her an ultimatum – him or her account.  To his surprise, she chose her Twitter account .  When he divorced her, she returned to her parent’s home in Jeddah.

I’m bothered by what I call these ‘snap divorces’ on multiple fronts.  To begin with, such divorces just highlight the power that the Saudi husband has over his wife.  If she does not toe the line that he deems as acceptable, then he can simply and easily divorce her. He does not even have to see her or say the words directly to her to make it happen.

Yet on the other hand, if the Saudi wife wanted to divorce her husband, it is not as simple as saying “Talaq” three times.  She must go to the courts and be granted a divorce by the attending judge.  If the judge does not believe there is sufficient cause for a divorce, he can order her to remain with her husband.

Secondly, learning of some of the reasons and ways that a man may divorce a woman seems to illustrate a lack of seriousness about marriage in general.  To callously divorce a woman publicly by loudspeaker over outrage of a tv show she has enjoyed or because she uses social media spanks of insecurity on the part of the man in addition to a big problem in communications.  It also raises questions on the value of marriage.

The custom in Saudi Arabia is for an arranged marriage.  While some couples may know one another prior to marriage, many remain relative strangers until the wedding.  As a result, they have no knowledge of each other’s interests, key values, desires, personalities or what makes the other tick as an individual.  Due to segregation, neither may be experienced in how to conduct even the most basic interaction with someone of the opposite sex.  Let’s face it, one does not interact in the same manner with a mother, father, sibling, aunt or uncle as with someone with whom you’ve not grown up with and seen on a regular basis.

Many Saudi couples will have a greater loyalty and protective instinct to their own family in which they were raised rather than to a spouse with whom they’ve been joined.

As a result, Saudi Arabia continues to have one of the highest divorce rates in the world.  According to WikiIslam, Saudi Arabia has the second highest divorce rate in the world with an average of 20 divorces per day.  Most divorces occur within the first three years of marriage and polygamy is responsible for 55 per cent of the divorces.

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258 Responses

  1. @All.
    Please note and try to understand: Saudis are muslim and all mulims follow the teachings of Quran. There is a complete chapter on TALAQ in the Quran. In the present world (the world of free of speech and free of every action) these things are expected. Quran never teaches that women are inferior to men but it teaches women to be obedient to husband. If there is a matter of difference or argument, she sould either convince her husband or be convinced in the light of Quranic Teachings.
    If a woman thiks that she canot tolrate husband’s advice (she is not of that type of person) she should not marry in the first place Otherwise she has to compromise with husband.
    I may make it clear that God surely does like DIVORSE or KHULA at all. He want His creation to live in peace.

  2. Sorry THERE IS MISS PRINT< I mean to say that GOD DOES NOT LIKE DIVORSE or KHULA

  3. I beg to differ with you have mentioned, the Qur’an sure has a whole chapter on divorce but it doesn’t state that if a woman cannot tolerate her husband’s advice then it is her “problem”. It states that if the husband and wife both try to live with each other and accept each other, but failed to do so then they should get a divorce. Meaning that if the love between them has died and cannot be revived then they should get a divorce. A women has her rights in a divorce and so does the man. I also know that a woman can go to court and demand divorce from the qadi as we call him , who will first examine the reasons and then tries to solve the issues if he sees that there is a way that they can live together, and if he sees that there is no way that they can remain married then they will get divorced. There are some of these men who receive briberies from husbands for instance and they don’t allow this divorce. But the women can always go to another one who is better. A man has the right to divorce his wife but his divorce is invalid in such cases if he was forced to utter them by someone else or if he was in a complete loss of temper to the extent that he is unaware of what he is saying or if he was in an abnormal state of mind, such as temporary madness, epilepsy or in a coma.
    Furthermore, this is useful:
    “Men have the right to divorce. If a man dislikes keeping his marriage for any reason, he divorces his wife and compensates her financially by paying her what is termed mut’a payment. This is in addition to the regular financial sustenance for her living, in case she has the custody of their children.
    Divorce becomes in effect once the husband utters or writes down any of the legal formulae of divorce such as: ‘I divorce you’ or ‘you are divorced’…etc. The husband can do these either by himself or through a messenger.
    In case it is the woman’s desire to end the marriage, the situation becomes different. Her reasons might be that she has received ill treatment, the husband is unable to sustain her financially or he is sexually impotent. She can prove these defects in front of the judge, then the judge grants her divorce with a full access to all her financial rights.
    Also, if the husband was good to her but she does not want to keep on for an emotional reason, then she asks for what is termed khul’. This means to be granted divorce but without any access for financial rights, plus paying back the husband the dowry that he already paid on marrying her. However, this is the last method that she can use if she really wants the marriage to end. She will not need her husband’s agreement.”

    To conclude, in the Qura’n it is written that divorce from the man or woman are really discouraged. It also states that a husband and wife should try their best to work on their marriage for the sake of their children. If they can’t remain in this marriage they are entitled to divorce. Islam views marriage as a loving relationship and would expect the husband to treat the women right and vice versa. Thus, if they disagree then they still have to respect each other’s wishes. A man shouldn’t force his wife to remain married to him. If otherwise, this is absolutely against our Islam teachings.

  4. Wikiislam is a hate site run by rabid bigots. Do your background research on any website before you promote it

  5. The highest divorce rate on the world is of maldives and third is usa http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-11000/highest-divorce-rate/ facts people!!

  6. Except that we don’t get facts out of countries like Saudi Arabia. So we can’t compare stuff like divorce statistics.
    There are other statistics too, for example: religious people have more divorces than non-religious people.
    And if there were more rational and equal laws and rights for women I bet we would see a lot more divorces in Saudi Arabia.

    Personally I think that if you are not happy together you should divorce. It’s better for the children too, especially if the divorced parents can deal with it in an adult and fair way.

    When you read about the people in the time of the prophet it seems they divorced and re-married a lot. Women too, and they weren’t stigmatized as they are now.

    Why should there be two rules of divorce? And then so unfair too; one easy one for men, and a difficult and biased one for women.
    This alone makes it só obvious that religion is made up by men. No decent, fairminded, and rational deity would come up with such silly unfair childish rules.
    It boggles the mind that anybody can read this nonsense and still believe there is an allknowing, benificent, omnipotent skydaddy hanging around.

  7. And then look at the silly and cowardly reasons and means the men in this article had for divorce. Such stupid spineless men should not be allowed so much power; for it is clear they cannot handle it.
    Being upset because your wife watches a soap opera.
    Too pathetic.
    A real men would be able to interest his wife and whisk her away from any tv-program.

    This is what you get with these unfair laws, made up by the primitive primate brain. You get whole generations of weak, dim-witted spineless men who cannot function like real men, who have no honor, who have no manly strength. They are a bunch of spineless boring whimps and they need these man-made oppressive rules and laws to have at least some control over ”their” women.

    Sami, And a woman is supposed to ”take the advice” of these losers?
    Just because they have a dick?
    Very funny.

    Sami, know this: a penis does not make a human being more intelligent, responsible and wise.
    On the contrary, a human being has only so much blood and in men it usually concentrates around the pelvic area, leaving the brain without oxygen and nutrients and this results in the atrophy of braincells we so often observe in the male sex.

    If there is this all-knowing omnipotent invisible entity who thinks it should make up rules for us, She would know this and if there should be any advantage given to one sex over the other the whole Quran would have been written the other way around.

    Maybe it was and the men could not stomach it and changed it….

  8. There are so many things I want to say to all this offensive crap that has been said above. I will first pinpoint the fact that Islam has what you can call different levels and types as well. And all what you people have mentioned has been put in an offensive way that I couldn’t help but disrespect you and your religion. Therefore, my advice is when you find something opposing to your own beliefs and opinions there is no need to insult other people’s beliefs and opinions. Plus I cannot explain to you all the details of a delicate subject but because of these comments I will try my best. Also, we don’t just have “rules” it’s called “Adab Al-talaq” which means the manners of divorce. This reply is for Afake-Art: I don’t know from you got your statistics that religious people divorce more, I find it funny. Because how can you determine who is religious and who is not. Second of all, there are two rules for divorce for a very simple reason. This reason is because the man when he first intends on getting married he has certain obligations to fulfill and materials he has to provide. He pays the woman a dowry which is a whole lot of money, when I say a whole lot I mean a whole lot. It may vary from 100,000 to 1,000,000 sr or more for all I know. He has to provide her with the house, furniture, clothes, all her needs must be met before marriage. Thus, when he divorces her then she gets to keep this money and her financial rights are reserved. Whereas, a women doesn’t pay a man anything. However, this can differ it depends on families I mean they can share the money if they want to on the house and other things, but a dowry from a man has to be paid. So lets assume that the woman has the right to divorce the man just the same, do you think it’s fair to take all his money and house and everything from him ?? So, a woman can demand divorce wether it’s with her husband’s approval or not. If he approves then they can divorce in a friendly manner and financial issues can be discussed in court. If he doesn’t want the divorce but the woman wants it then as I have mentioned she can go to judge who can divorce her and give her all her financial rights if he finds her reasons are strong for divorce. If not then she can try “khlu'” which will give the man all his money back because his approval isn’t needed. So, you see if both men and women had the same responsibilities then I would agree with you. But Islam ensures that both sexes have their rights. And trust me a man will think a hundred before divorcing his wife because all his money and shelter and whatever will be taken away from him, but assuming a woman could divorce in the same manner then she wouldn’t care because nothing will be taken from her and she will be given all the money. Now you tell me do you think that’s fair ???

  9. I also agree with you that these reasons for divorce are extremely lame and that it is the exact opposite of our religion’s teachings. As i have mentioned, and will keep mentioning we have a chapter that advises women and men on how to deal with their issues. And this to us real Muslims is deviated from our Islam. And don’t tell me people in other religions don’t deviate. Please. And for god’s sakes our religion ensures that women and men have rights. If you don’t know anything about our religion I would advise you to not say such horrible things. And as I have mentioned before I couldn’t disrespect and pity you more than I disrespect you right now. Thanks for showing us how amazing our religion is because this is the exact behavior our religion discourages 🙂

  10. Thanks maram96 for enlighting my mind too and showing and reminding me too how beautifuly our religion do justice both men and women rights.Reading all this any one can see that only God is able to do such justice not any men any human.

  11. I am really glad I did, mrs ashgar. Because the media and other sources these days really portray not only our religion but our culture in such unrealistic images. Where we are all close minded and our religion is sexist and causes wars. When in reality, if you were to examine our religion you would see it’s beauty and mercy. I just wish people would understand that. It is enough that Islam literally means peace and calls for it. If a person would just research Islam and see the amazing things it contains then they’ll see how amazing it is. Unfortunately, it isn’t portrayed the way that it really is.

  12. Waw!, what a lot of aggression just because I point out the immorality and unfairness of giving one sex undeserved advantages over the other, and because this is backed up by some unprovable invisible sky daddy, according to the misogynist, bronze age men who made it all up…

    And you think that is beautiful…..
    Sad….
    No enslavement is more complete than when the slaves themselves defend their subjugation.
    Thank you though for giving yet another proof that religion corrupts morality, rational thinking and justice.

  13. You know what some people are living in their own ignorant lives, only blinded to see what they want to see. I am done trying to argue with you because there is no winning with someone who doesn’t have self-respect. I know what I know, and will believe in what I believe. Your empty words don’t change anything. Therefore, you can think what you want to think and believe what you want to believe. I stick with and will defend my religion because I’ve lived it and thought about it critically. I have studied and found that there is no other religion that I am happy with except my own. I will not respect your point of view or even take it under consideration because it was formulated in such an illogical and hating way that it doesn’t deserve to be even thought about. And if I would be a “slave” like you call it to anything then it wouldn’t be the thing that enslaved you. If I am a slave to Allah then I am proud to be and if you have a problem with that, then I am not interested.

  14. I continue to be amazed – maybe saddned is the right word – by the ignorance of divorce in Islam but non-muslims but more so by muslims. Divorcing someone by saying “taqla” thrice does not make a divorce. It is sheer ignorance.

    I was asked about the ruling of Talaq by someone after she has already asked a shaikh in USA. I am sure what I replied to her was in line with her shaikh. This is what I replied to her:

    When a divorce is initiated by the husband, it is known as talaq. The pronouncement by the husband may be verbal or written, and should only be done once. Since the husband is seeking to break the marriage contract, the wife has full rights to keep the dowry (mahr) paid to her.

    After a announcing of divorce, Islam requires a three-month waiting period (called the iddah) before the divorce is finalized. During this time, the couple continues to live under the same roof, but sleeps apart. This gives the couple time to calm down, evaluate the relationship, and perhaps reconcile. Sometimes decisions are made in haste and anger, and later one or both parties may have regrets. During the waiting period, the husband and wife are free to resume their relationship at any time, thus ending the divorce process without the need for a new marriage contract.

    Another reason for the waiting period is as a way of seeing whether the wife is expecting a child. If the wife is pregnant, the waiting period continues until after she has delivered the child. During the entire waiting period, the wife has the right to remain in the family home and the husband is responsible for her support.

    According to the true jurisprudence of Shari’ah, the couple is supposed to try to reconcile during the compulsory iddah period, with the help of mediators from each family but it is better to have learned Ulama included being the advisers. If the couple breaks the iddah by engaging in sexual intercourse, they are deemed to have been reconciled and the Talaq is voided. The marriage resumes.

    If the waiting period is completed without reconciliation, the divorce is complete and takes full effect. The husband’s financial responsibility for the wife ends, and she often returns to her own family home. However, the husband continues to be responsible for the financial needs of any children, through regular child support payments. Generally two witnesses are required to witness the completion of the talaq.

    “So when they have reached their prescribed time, then retain them with kindness or separate them with kindness, and call to witness two men of justice from among you, and give upright testimony for Allah. With that is admonished he who believes in Allah and the latter day; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah, He will make for him an outlet”. [65.2]

    If a couple decides to reconcile, after the divorce is finalized (after the iddah period is over), they must start over with a new contract and a new dowry (mahr). To prevent damaging yo-yo relationships, there is a limit on how many times the same couple may marry and divorce. If a couple decides to remarry after a divorce, this can only be done twice. The Quran says, “Divorce is to be given two times, and then (a woman) must be retained in good manner or released gracefully.” (2:229)

    After divorcing and remarrying twice, if the couple then decides to divorce again, it is clear that there is a major problem in the relationship! Therefore in Islam, after the third divorce, the couple may not remarry again. First the woman must seek fulfillment in marriage to a different man. Only after she is divorced or widowed from this second marriage partner, would it be possible for her to reconcile again with her first husband if they choose. “And if he has divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she has married another husband. Then, if the other husband divorces her, it is no sin on both of them that they reunite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. These are the limits of Allah, which He makes plain for the people who have knowledge” (2:230)

    To be conituned …

  15. maram, I notice you do not address any of my points;

    – It is unfair and unjust to give one sex undeserved advantage over the other
    – The rules in any currently popular religion are immoral and unjust
    – These rules show unmistakable signs of being made up by men from less advanced, misogynist archaic societies
    – There is no proof for any kind of invisible sky daddy

    Now I understand you are avoiding addressing these points because none of them can be defended by facts.
    Just be honest about it, ok?

  16. Talaq uttered in anger is not counted. (Maybe in twitter ir sms or whatever anger is a red frowning smiley face)

    The Prophet (saas), said: “Talaq is not valid in case of ighlaq.” One of the meanings of ighlaq is when the person is extremely angry that he is not aware of what he says.

    Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about a man whose wife treats him badly and insults him, so he divorced her at a moment of anger.

    He replied:
    If you uttered the words of divorce at a moment of intense anger and without realizing it, and you could not control yourself, because of her bad words and insults etc., and you did that at a moment of intense anger and without realizing it, and she acknowledges that, or you have a witness of good character, then divorce has not taken place, because the shar’i evidence indicates that divorce does not take place if the words are spoken at a moment of intense anger – and if it is accompanied by not realizing what is happening then the ruling applies even more so.
    For example, Ahmad, Abu Dawood and Ibn Maajah narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (ra) that the Prophet (saas) said: “There is no divorce and no manumission in the event of ighlaaq.” “La talaqa fil Ighlaq” The majority of scholars said that ighlaaq means compulsion or anger, i.e., intense anger. For his anger made him unaware of what he was saying, so he is like one who is unconscious, insane or drunk, because of the intensity of his anger. So divorce does not take place in this instance. If he does not realize what he is doing and cannot control his words or actions because of the intensity of his anger, then divorce does not take place.

  17. Basically, it is more difficult for men to give the divorce than it is for the woman.

  18. I Saudi islam is not followed as it is supposed to be or should be — this is as far as i can tell. so no matter what the koran says or wahat islamic divorce law is it has no meaning insaudi. What happens in saudi is their intertretation of islam which is terrible, but if one lived in saudi and followed their rules the women have actually no choice.
    divorec is exactly as it is laid out int his article. the men will do so at will easily andthe women will struggle to even get a divorce from a abuser.

    yes islam is lovely so are a million other religions but it doesn’t matter if the courts in a country are supposed to follow islam and don’t. by everyone’s agreement saudi follows islamic laws on divorce and commits atrocities, their judges are a sad lot with absolutely no correct knowledge of islam.– so when people look at saudi as the ultimate islamic utopia and see the judgements then they believe it is islam. no one to blame but saudi itself.

    and no women getting khula is not an easy task, she better be rich and influential and have 100% support form her family who better have wasta .
    i always tell people don’t ever tell me saudi is an islamic country having lived there and lived thru my SIL’s divorce and mahram issues and my rights as human being when my husband was incapaciated – it is far from islam. it’s a law into itself, with amillion uneducated intrepretations of the koran by judges as they see fit and massive subjugation of anyone and everyone inthe name of islam.
    very unfortunate that the holy mosques are located inthat absymal place.

  19. @sarah – more difficult for men where ??? in saudi?
    you are 100% wrong and no i’m not debating islam or what the prophet said or what it means , i’m talking of how islam is intertreted today by those in power and by the judges who can grant divorce.
    just because it’s a beautiful just religion on paper doesn’t mean a thing if it doesnt filter out to the population.

  20. Ya Allah I am so tired of these same arguments. Aafke don’t you get tired repeating the same thing? I honestly didn’t see any aggression from Maram or even Mrs Ashgar but you’re sound so violent with dicks and penis all over the place. I get it,you loath men. I get it, you are an atheist who despises religion but do you have to scorn our belief? Come on, why can’t we live and let live? But I’ll tell you one thing, I would love to round up these stupid men and throw them into the Saudi desert.

  21. To answer AA’s questions:

    Each sex was created with its own roles. If complete equality is given then there is no need even for sex. Man is created for his role in society and woman for hers. So in this context men and women have different functions but compliment each other. And because their responsbilities are different, there are rules that benefit those roles. All rules are fair for their individual part in the society.

    The wisdom behind these rules make it clear without a doubt that this cannot be man made.

    As for proof of the Creator, you only have to look at yourself and all around you, how you breathe, how your heart pumps, how your brain works or doesn’t, how nature conforms to human existence and other living creatures, heck look at how miraculous it is to give birth to another human being. To realise the reality of God, you need eyes to see with, ears to hear with, heart to feel it and finally you need the wisdom to understand the beauty of our Creator.

  22. Radha, i am talking about islam and not in any country in particular.

  23. I agree with you though Radha, Saudi is the worst representation for Islam with their divorce laws (and some others). Let’s focus on the wrong doings of Saudi in regards to divorce shall we and leave Islam out of it coz it sure ain’t Islamic to tweet divorce to your wife.

  24. Radha, the arguement here was divorce in islam and I wanted to clarify that issue but yes i agree in some countries, they tend to make it difficult. If everyone followed Islam to the letter, it would be a wonderful world. That is not the case, sadly.

  25. I’ve just realised, with the exception of Same, the comments per this topic is given only by us ladies…oh men, you do make put our panties into a bunch!!

  26. Mrs B, I see it as my duty to defend human rights, and women’s rights, and to fight that which is immoral and evil. I do so by speaking out and pointing out the fallacies and immorality of religions.

    I am sorry that you don’t like the words ”penis” and ”dick” but how else can I describe that little appendage, that ”petit differance” which makes the difference between a human being who can drive and one who cannot, between having all the laws and advantage on your side and being at the losing end. Between being able to have self determination and being a nothing, a dependent, a being which is ”owned” by some other being merely because he has this extra dangling bit between his legs.

    And stop don’t blaming me, I did not make this up. If this is distasteful to you change your religion.

    Sarah,
    those rules are arbitrary, different societies see those roles different. The only thing you can’t change is that women make the babies. But that should award women extra respect, not delegate them to be second rate humans with less rights than men.
    And yes, I do not think there are one or more invisible friends out there who made this up, so all this talk about what a god or gods want is white noise to me.
    But the harm it causes in the real world is not.

    The fact that the Abrahamic religions do consider women to be ”deficient” and second rate to men and actually property, (or ”tilth” according to Islam) is indeed proof of my point that these rules and religions were not made up by some all-knowing, all-powerful, all-beneficent supernatural invisible being, but by fallible misogynist men from a barbaric time who had very little morality and very little justice.

  27. Sarah, yes the world is perfect and the design is perfect.

  28. Honestly, I am sick of arguing the same thing over and over again. Muslims will be Muslims, atheists will be atheists, Christians will be Christians. You simply can’t change someone’s religion by offending it or insulting them. I 150% believe in my religion. If you dislike that then I don’t see that this is my problem. Also, to all the people out there don’t confuse religion with society. There are sexist societies because of traditions or whatever. But it is not present in religion if you don’t believe in God then I respect that. And I expect you to respect that I believe in god and if you have opposing opinions then would also expect you to address them in a polite manner without insulting one’s religion or beliefs.

  29. Oh god, here I go again. Afake-arts : Your first point, I just explained to you that you can’t give both sexes the same advantages when the situation is different. Read what I wrote. It is the same as saying that criminals regardless of what they have committed will receive the same punishment and the same rights. Which can’t happen, you can’t execute a stealer and a serial killer.

    – Second point I beg to differ because no man will have the brain capacity to make up rules so meticulous, and from a hundred years these rules have not only been passed over to our generations from books but from words of mouth. Proving that they haven’t changed. How can a “man” invent rules for all humanity, and for aspects of life that weren’t even present in the past. No man can predict what will occur in the future, then tell me how can my great great grandfather know what is going to happen in the world through the Qur’an. Because it is all written there. If you don’t believe me then read it.

    – Third point, how can a religion be a test if god shows himself ? Other than that I don’t believe a simple man can create you, or the sky, or mountains, or seas, or any creature for that matter. And think of every little detail even the details about the tiniest insects is carefully thought through, that it has rights, and can defend itself and attack in order to survive. I can go on and on about this but i have other stuff to do. This is all I managed to write just to show you that i can address your points and that I am not avoiding them. I am actually glad you brought them up.

  30. After reading this very interesting post, what I can highlight is the following:

    how essential is ultimately for the women to put in her contract ( if it is islamic) or draft a prenuptial agreement for civil marriages that she is allowed to divorce.

    I strongly believe that especially in countries where men have a lot of authority within the marital life, everything should be made as crystal clear as possible before the marriage and all marriage conditions to be legally documented.

    That is the very least any woman can do in such a case and if the man refuses to sign, it clearly means he is not the right one!

  31. @gigi – even if he signs it it is not 100 % enforcable. that is what women should be aware of.

    it’s entirely upto te discretions of learned judges as to how they interpret sharia. and believe me when i say they each have a world of difference intheir interpretations. and then there is their personal views and experiences coloring the judgement… enough to drive god crazy…

    sometimes i wish saudi judges would be sent to the same school and taught the same version of whatever islam they are following. so atleats you’ll know what to expect.

    but somehow with money and wasta they can sing a diff tune 🙂

  32. Gigi, such clauses will be useless in Saudi Arabia since they will not be honored by the judges.

  33. maram, you now compare women to criminals to defend their second grade value in the Islamic world?

    -We have ample proof that Quran has been rewritten and editted but I won’t go into that, let’s look at the text alone. The Quran is badly written, it’s grammar is faulty, it contradicts itself, and it rules, especially after applying the Quranic rule of obrigation, are immoral.
    Clearly man-made.

    – If there are gods who want rational people to believe in them they should show some proof. As there is none, they either don’t care or they don’t exist.

  34. Your attacks are deteriorating. Why? Because you know I wasn’t saying women are like criminals I knew you were going to say something like that I was trying to explain to you that certain situations demand different reactions and that is how the world works wether we like it or not. And who the hell is “we”. Also the I don’ t know which Qur’an you read because it must different than mine. Because our grammar is actually taken from the Qur’an so you can’t tell me I don’t know my own language that I studied for 17 years. I always read the Qur’an and it’s explanation and not once have I came across something that contradicts something else. If you find the rules there “immoral” it’s up to you. When in fact I believe that there is nothing that has rules that are more fit for life than the Qur’an. I will repeat proof is everywhere I mentioned that in the previous post. Creatures, knowing of events that have occurred recently when we know them from years before, and so on. I think you should search about such information via more valid sources.

  35. @Maram96
    I think you will go mad(God forbd). ThaNKS WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
    You can not convince the stubborn..

  36. Haha I wouldn’t mind going mad because I think it’s worth it. But I sure do have many other things to do but instead of wasting my time talking on someone who won’t respect what I have to say.

  37. I knew the version of divorce Sarah explained. I also know that AA & a few others here like to say the same things over & over again. I guess Maram96 just found out as well. Thanx for trying though Maram.
    I live in Saudi & know better than to believe the hype about how Islam is practiced here(agreeing with Radha).

  38. The Quran endorses slavery. It is utterly immoral to own another human being.
    I can do a whole list but I think this is enough to prove it is man-made and immoral.

    Sarah, If men are so emotional and badly in control of themselves then why should there be a rule that they can divorce their wife (wives) on a tantrum? And why should there be a rule that it doesn’t count?

    Such a bad rule. So flawed, so badly thought out….
    Humanly flawed.

  39. When you live in a country that believes the Qur’an as gospel and to follow every word in it, seems one is headed for a lot of trouble. Fair is far and law is law, but when it comes to divorce and marriage, having an arranged marriage is only good for the man as after he divorces one wife, who is no longer any good because she is no longer a virgin, then he go on to another one and de virginize her and make her life miserable. How fair is that to the woman? Women in Saudi Arabia will always be submissive to their husbands like they are a dog trained to obey. She is not to have a speaking voice of her own, nor is she to have freedom. What kind of life does one have as a prisoner in her own home? What kind of life does she have after a divorce and no longer a virgin? With men having so much dominance over his wife, as his dog, they can do as they please, talk to her as he pleases and beat her as he pleases with no consequences. I knew two women who married Saudi’s and their lives were pure hell. One was pushed down the stairs while pregnant with twins, which she lost, and the other was forced to leave her children behind in Saudi Arabia and when she went to visit she was called a whore by her own children. Such brainwashing goes on and on. I too believe that the part about divorce was written by a man and not a god. If written by a god, why would he put such laws in the book. Who is it protecting and serving? Only the man. So women in general are nothing in the eyes of the god? They are just the dog the man can have to kick around and make obey him or they get punished. No religion should speak so ill of any woman as they are the ones who give life. Mother Mary was divine and therefore respected. All women should be respected the same as Mother Mary and no less. I also get tired of Saudi’s saying they treat their women as queens. That is so funny. If they were treated as queens there wouldn’t be divorce, no beatings, and no killing of the women over what they determine to be against the family.

  40. Some contradictions in the Quran:
    Just a loose list, there are many more

    Alcohol is ok, heaven has rivers of alcohol, ” And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise”
    Alcohol is ok when you’re not praying: ”O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands” (note that a woman is as yukkie as wiping your ass)
    But:
    Alcohol is very bad: ”They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect”
    Alcohol is from satan! ”O you who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divine arrows are only an infamy of Satan’s handiwork. Leave it aside that you may succeed”

    There are four sacred months: ”The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. ”
    There is one sacred month: ”O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month”

    There is no compulsion in Islam: ”Unto you your religion and unto me my religion ”
    There is compulsion in Islam: ”I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

    All people from the book will be saved: ”Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”
    Only Muslims will be saved: ”Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account”

    Muslims can have Christians for friends: ”Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant”
    Muslims cannot have Christians for friends : ”O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them”

    men and women are equal ”Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another”
    Men are better than women: ”Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other”

    Which btw is not true. Men are not superior over women. Men can be very inferior to women, it just depends which man and which woman you compare.
    Anyway, it was quite fun looking up contradictions in the Quran and I could go on for ever there are soooo many.
    Now I don’t mind the contradictions, it leaves room for cherrypicking, and room for improvement on the current state of Islam. But you can’t tell me there are no contradictions in the Quran because the book, short as it is, is full of them.

  41. Penny what you have said about divorce and submission might be true in some conditions in Saudi Arabia, you can’t generalize. I live in Saudi Arabia I know what goes on, I have Saudi parents and families and these deviations and abuse they occur everywhere and not just here. While for Aafke-Arts, if you give me the number and page or title of the suras from which you brought these versus and “explained them” I am sure I can convince you otherwise. Because all what you have said is completely wrong and misinterpreted. Give it to me and I’ll read it and give you the REAL explanations within the context not the ones that you wrote. Like for instance the verse you’re talking about where you are saying men are better than women, it doesn’t read like that and it has a context and it is incomplete, it doesn’t say the men are better than woman. Research the rest and don’t use ill translations. And you’ll see the real meaning. Be open-minded people that’s all I am asking. For instance, in America there are no cases of abuse or hectic divorces ?!! I have just read a whole book about one case of abuse that went on for years and years in the US. So you can’t just say shit about Saudi Arabia or us. I really wish you would look deeper into the subject ask people who actually know information and that are trustworthy. Just be open-minded, show some respect. Just some!

  42. Penny you said you knew two women who went through horrible divorces. I am going to ignore that everywhere abuse and poor living conditions do happen. But I can tell you that I know thousands of woman personally, who are happily married. All of the cases of marriages that I have heard about occurred with the woman’s consent and choice. I know a woman who got married and found out that her husband was actually sorry for my language a “jerk” and got a divorce after one week of marriage, knowing that she chose him. I also know many woman who are happily married, and their husbands do treat them like “queens”. But no household is problem free, no country or society is perfect, and there is no such a thing as a country with perfect people who commit no wrong.

  43. I can easily post a story about another country lets say America or the UK or Canada whatever and a society and talk about how poorly husbands treat their wives, physical abuse, brainwashing, children shootings in schools, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, alcoholism and i can go on and on. But if you focus on that well then this whole world in nothing but a planet of absolute crap. But I respect other countries and societies and if I do mention some of the issues they have I will not generalize nor will I talk ill about it. I will mention both negative and positive sides. Because of something called Respect.

  44. Penny, on January 4, 2013 at 3:06 pm said: When you live in a country that believes the Qur’an as gospel and to follow every word in it, seems one is headed for a lot of trouble.

    Yes, most definitely! It has been “headed for a lot of trouble” since its very inception via caesarian section in the sixth century. It has been frozen in time since ….

    http://www.iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=140551

  45. @Penny, I think you exaggerate a bit when you say that arranged marriages are in favor of men. In fact they are in favor of no one. Just a bunch of people fulfilling senseless traditions. As a Saudi man who had the ability to gain perspective on both Arab and Western cultures, I find pros and cons in both. Even in the West, there are rules to abide that we can only speak of freedom in relative terms. Gender equality is still not fully realized in the US, To an extent, it’s still a white man’s world. I think Saudi Arabia has taken large strides in fixing its social issues. We still have a long way to go, I think slowly but surely, we’re getting there. I agree with you on the importance of respecting women and elaborating on their importance in society. Muslims have a whole chapter in the Qur’an named After the virgin Mary. So, I think in essence, Respect for women is seeded in Islamic societies. The issues you talk about however, seem to be anomalies in every society that cannot be generalized since they contradict the moral code. By the way, what’s this obsession with virgins in your post? Anyway, thanks for your entry 🙂

  46. Maram, I can do that of course, but it is your holy book after all, you should know all this anyway, you should not need a kuffaar to point it out to you.

    I will give you one, but I tell you beforehand you can’t get out of this by claiming context, or ”the times were different”.

    Ok about compulsion in Islam:
    – There is no compulsion in Islam: ”Unto you your religion and unto me my religion ”
    109:6
    – There is compulsion in Islam: ”I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”
    8:12

  47. Contradictions In Koran

    Instead of a very lengthy cut/paste job, here is a reference resource which covers it all and then some:

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Qur'an

  48. Even if you do not know your religion you can google these quotes and get all the verses.

    You, maram, and Sami introduced the topic, you are the ones who introduced Islam into this discussion, so don’t complain when it is being discussed. You always do this, introduce your religion, and then claim you are being attacked.

    The reason why we talk about your religions is because you (and all other religious people) want to rule other people using those religions, claiming Islam is perfect, therefore the rules are perfect.
    So now we have to talk about Islam being perfect, which it isn’t.

    You (all religious people) want to force other people into crazy rules based on your religion and then you claim nobody can discuss your religion.

    Now you can stay inside your home and pray and be as religious as you like, I don’t care, but when you come out, even in cyberspace, and start claiming your religions are perfect and women are different from men and therefore deserve different laws and treatment because Islam says so, but by doing this you are opening the discussion about Islam.

  49. Aafke-art, what’s your interest in Islam? When you don’t believe in its basics, foundations, structure anything how you can criticize and why? You took some much time and efforts just to find faults, your knowledge put me under the impression that you were a Muslim. Social media is no place for debating religion because of its limitations.
    Quran al Hakeem wasn’t revealed all just once and it’s not a written book. Quran al Hakeem is the Allah tala is talking to me, to you. I read it in written words as a book, and there are no doubts benefits fir reading, still when I hear it I feel something different, like someone is talking to me.
    The two ayats and many other you quoted above are took out from their original context, ayat has it’s context and subject.
    Now a day’s many people take any ayat and start quoting and saying look it’s something wrong. What’s the purpose? Surely not to make it better because they or anyone can’t do it.
    Quran al Hakeem is the final message of Allah al Mighty, sent to Prophet Muhammad. It’s not man made, so it can’t be changed, as many powers and efforts all the world use in this. I believe in every single word of Quran al Hakeem and Allah al Mighty told absolute truth in His Final book Quran al Hakeem.
    Maram96, bravo, you did a great thing. You win many Muslim hearts, surely Allah al Mighty is please with you.

  50. Now you can stay inside your home and pray and be as religious as you like, I don’t care, but when you come out, even in cyberspace, and start claiming your religions are perfect and women are different from men and therefore deserve different laws and treatment because Islam says so, but by doing this you are opening the discussion about Islam.

    Now Aafke, this argument is really just one sided a tad too much don’t you think? It shouldn’t be your or anyone’s business where ppl wishes to pray whether at home, at the masjid, the office etc and if following your logic, then it would befair for religious to scorn your atheism as well, right? but that would equate to hate speech and no freedom to disbelief i suppose? you have admit you are very unbalanced in your justice and judgements.

  51. Fine I’ll look into it, I’ll find all the veraus in their original language and we’ll see if what your claiming is true. I’ll look for all of them. And just because it is my holy book that doesn’t mean that I know where every verse is, particularly not translated ones. Also I am obviously discussing Islam with you and I didn’t say that I don’t want to. I said that one has to RESPECT another person’s religion and opinions. But from the way you were talking there is no respect I wouldn’t mind discussing this for years if I have to, but if you keep cursing and using offensive langauge then I don’t think I want to be engaged in such a disscussion.

  52. AA,

    “those rules are arbitrary, different societies see those roles different”

    No, AA, those roles are specific but man made those rules arbitrary depending on where he lives. But male/female inborn instincts are natural and same all over the world. Those rules are same and compliment each gender.

    Yes being able to give birth does give the female gender extra privileges and nothing made that more clear than Islam. (Yes there are societies that degrade women).

    Can you disprove God? It is easy to blame everything on religion but we fail to see that the harm done in this world is not from God or religion but from those who want to do away with god-consciousness, those who want to deny what is in-born, ones who invite evil into their hearts and ones who allow too much freedom and calling it “human rights”.

    Can you say you know all the secrets of the universe? Are you that knowledgeable? I don’t think anyone can say that. We are continually in the learning process – some have reached certain levels, others are reaching there. wouldn’t you say that you are among those who are reaching there? You cannot comprehend everything. Can you say that your views are the absolute truth? Can you prove them?

    Islam is divine but humans are not and bound to be wrong, tend to make mistakes, make wrong judgements, stumble and fall. That is why we are given the instructions. We are only a speck and cannot know everything.

    Think about it. There are many who search and find it and there are many who do not want to find it and deny it when truth stares at them.

  53. AA,
    About your “compulsion in Islam”, I am glad you put that forth. I can understand your confusion but there is an easy explanation to that. Since Maram promised to reply to you, I will wait for her. BTW, Maram, thanks for your input here.

  54. @ Aafke-Art and Honest Abe,
    I would be amazed if anyone really fell for this oldest trick in the book. the same could be done tot he Bible, the Vedas or any religious scripture. One thing you learn in “Religions for Dummies” is that you never take any religious text for its face value. Why? the reason is that religious scriptures fall under the category of theology and literature, meaning there are A LOT of historical, linguistic, cultural and even political factors to consider. That’s why even born-Muslims rely on what’s called Tafseer (exegesis) when attempting to understand what a certain verse may mean. Not to forget that the Qur’an is considered to be a high-level language that is full of metaphorical and allegorical verses. The verses you quoted on alcohol are classical examples on abrogation in the Qur’an. It is something taught even in basic Saudi curriculum. I would consider it either sheer ignorance (assuming good intentions) as you did not take your time to research and acquire what Muslims consider to be common knowledge, or a plain hate agenda aimed towards attacking Islam and antagonizing Muslims.
    I don’t expect this respected blog to be the place for either.
    Best,
    Yasser

  55. Wow Yaseer!! That’s all I can say, wow! the last part of your comment hits the nail on the head. I have been here for almost one year and I can assure you, these kind of aggressive Islamophobes will stop at nothing to get their own ‘theories’ out and have complete disregard against any other theories. Bear in mind Aafke, a theory is merely one way of thinking and not THE only way of thinking.

  56. MrsB, What I meant was, its fine for people to be religious, and of course you can also come here and talk about your religion and of course you can defend your version of religion. I would never want freedom of speech taken away from anybody.

    My problem with religion is that religious people do more, they want to force other people, who do not believe in their religions to live according to their rules, the rules of their religion, which, in my opinion, are crazy rules. Therefore I like to point out where religions are going wrong, and how there are no proofs for invisible sky-daddies.

    And Maram accused me of discussing Islam, but she and Sami brought Islam into the discussion, thereby opening the discussion.
    Now they are free to do so, but they can’t complain if other people join into the discussion with their opinion. And it certainly cannot be called an attack.

    And lets be honest, the only reason they don’t want me to join the discussion is because I say Islam is a man-made misogynist religion, made up by people who were far less advanced and with far less developed morality and it shows.
    Had I agreed with them they would not have complained. But they cannot brook being called out on the inconsistencies of their claims and so they pull the ”we are being attacked”-card..

  57. Yasser, exactly, that’s why I am a poly-atheist. I have read many magic books, learned about many superstitions and many gods and I find none of them convincing.
    I could be convinced about the existence of gods if I got some decent, verifiable proof, but haven’t seen it yet.

  58. The abrogation thing is another problem I have. This god is an idiot, for 70.000 years he leaves humanity to rot and then suddenly decides it’s time to intervene.
    And where does he choose to send his message? Not in China, where people are technically advanced and can read and write and make sure his message and religion gets spread out in a minimum of time. No, he ”reveals” himself to some illiterate barbarians in some backwater in the Middle East.
    And gets it wrong.
    So he tries again, in the same neighborhood with Jesus Christ. Gets it wrong again.
    So he tries it again, this time in an even more dismal primitive and illiterate place.
    And gets it wrong again, so while still composing the holy book he needs to write amendments.

    Now I know you think that’s the end of it, but there are a lot of people who think God had another try with another prophet, Joseph Smith, a smalltime conman in America and gave new revelations and started the Mormon church.

    And then there’s scientology which is even more nuts.

    And there will be more in the future.

    And all these religions have crazy rules they want to force onto me, want to tell me what to do, what to wear, what to eat, whom to sleep with and in what position, what work I am allowed or forced to do, and as I am a woman: they all want to take away my rights, my independence, my self determination.

    And you wonder why I am not keen? Why I feel I need to point out the fallacies and inconsistencies and total lack of proof of all the crazy religions?

  59. I agree what you have said. Don’t bother to convince these stubborn.

  60. Aafke-Art..

    Nobody is forcing you to believe in Allah.. and no Muslim has the right to do so.

    but Muslims are obligated to teach “uninformed” people about Allah and Islam so that they may worship him and be rewarded, but if they refuse Islam even after learning about Its teachings then they are free to believe in what they want..

    قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ
    Say: ‘O unbelievers, (1)
    لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
    I do not worship what you worship, (2)
    وَلَا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
    nor do you worship what I worship. (3)
    وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَا عَبَدْتُمْ
    Nor am I worshiping what you have worshipped, (4)
    وَلَا أَنْتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ
    neither will you worship what I worship. (5)
    لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ
    To you your religion, and to me my Religion. ‘ (6)

    __

    but be warned about the consequences of that choice..

    وَمَنْ يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا
    And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell – what an evil destination. 04:115

  61. Sarah, you asked if I can prove that God does not exist. of course I can’t prove that, you can’t prove a negative.

    I can claim there is a celestial teapot in orbit around the planet. If you don’t believe it I can ask you to prove there isn’t a celestial teapot orbiting the planet and you can never do so.
    I cannot prove the celestial teapot exists either, so you can say ”I don’t believe there is a celestial teapot orbiting the planet.”
    And for the same reason I say; ”I don’t believe there is some all powerful entity because there is no proof”.
    And I certainly do not want to live by any made up crazy rules attributed to this imaginary firend.

    If you do claim there is this amazing deity with amazing powers and a nasty disposition and we should all worship him, and follow any crazy rules described in the book, you are making the claim so the burden of proof lies on you.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Give me the evidence and I will change my mind.

  62. Mohammed, thank you for your thoughtful comment to me.

    While reading your comment I noticed the threat in your last quote, once somebody has heard about Islam they better convert or else… Burn!
    I do not like that.
    I have heard of Islam, quite a lot, read quite a lot, and I decided I don’t like it. I do not like the god it describes, I do not like the unfairness and immorality of many of the suras and the hadith. I do not like the actions of Mohammed. So now I get to be burned in hell by this merciful god… Luckily I don’t believe there is any such place.

    I know you are beholden to teach as many other people as possible about your religion and gain converts. This is what many religions want their flock to do and it is one of the reasons I don’t like religions: they never leave you alone.

    That’s why I said I don’t mind if you are religious and stay in your home and pray and everything. You can play with your toys at home and be happy. But you can’t force me to play with your toys as well. I object to that.

    And Yasser has just explained the rule of obrigation: Later suras supersede earlier suras, now you quoted a nice sure, from Al Kaffaroon, but that is an early sura and so it doesn’t count, because Sura The Sword which is a later one instructs you to kill all non-believers, so sura al kaffaroon is obrigated by Sura the sword.

    Which I find a very nasty injunction btw. very disrespectful to people who just happen to believe something else.

    If people come unto a forum and try to instruct other people about Islam, then don’t you think these other people should have the same right and explain why they don’t fall for your propaganda?

  63. Aafke-Art, on January 5, 2013 at 5:13 am said:…
    I could be convinced about the existence of gods if I got some decent, verifiable proof, but haven’t seen it yet.
    __

    “Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:

    We said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?” He said, “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?” We said, “No.” He said, “So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky).”

    the hadeeth shows that if Allah would appear before the day of resurrection then everybody would believe in him as they believe in the existence of the sun or moon, then what is the purpose of this test if everyone believed in him.

    its like going to school and be presented with a test that has 10 out of 10 marks, what was the purpose of giving the test if everyone is the same.

    Allah gave mankind the choice to believe and did not force them , those who believed the most and abode with his rules shall receive great bounties from Allah such is entering the Paradise and seeing his Almighty Face. which non believers will never be able to do.

  64. Afke-Art once somebody has heard about Islam they better convert or else… Burn!
    I do not like that.
    __

    there is a difference between hearing about it and knowing about every detail clearly, I have heard about a lot of religions, but that doesn’t mean that i know them or know their method of worship.

    if you were not clearly informed about Islam then it was the mistake of the person telling you about it wrongfully, if the situation fits and Allah chose to.. he would punish him for not clearing it for you and reward you for wanting to know about it.

  65. You still haven’t given me any proof. Books which are written by people who want you to believe in order that they can rule over you I will not accept as proof.
    I can write a book too.

    And when reading the Quran and hadith I find so many fallacies, inconsistencies, and immoral injunctions, and stuff which is plainly wrong, that I consider these books proof against the invisible friend.

    You contradict yourself, or your religion contradicts you. You now tell me I have free choice. But you also gave me quote which doesn’t really give me free choice. that passage is threatening me with never ending torture if I do not follow Islam. Out of my own free will. That’s a joke!
    Now I think you are a nice person, so you like the idea that I have free choice. But your religion does not like free choice, it calls out to the believers to invade dar al-harb, and ”convert” everybody and kill those who will not tow the line.
    And your quote threatens me with eternal torture.

    I will not be spoken to in such a manner.
    Nor will threats ”convert” me to a religion which I hold to be immoral, nor will they convince me that there is some invisible skydaddy with nasty plans for my everlasting torture.

  66. Mohammed, I read the Quran and most of the hadith. I read different scholars, nice ones and not so nice ones. I have read the biography of the prophet. I got the sugarcoated version and the raw reality.

    I see what Islam does in countries where it has power. I see what it does to women and children.

    I think Islam, and all other religions are evil. They are the cause of most of the suffering on earth. Slaughter and murder and barbarism.

  67. Aafke-Art

    If people come unto a forum and try to instruct other people about Islam, then don’t you think these other people should have the same right and explain why they don’t fall for your propaganda?

    ___

    Imagine you are standing in front of a person selling fruits like bananas, would you tell him that you don’t like bananas and tell people not to buy it because you dislike it or…

    would you just buy/leave the bananas and go?

    if you bought it you would enjoy the taste of bananas,
    but if you left it you will not be able to know what they taste like.

    same principle.

  68. @Aafke-Art,
    I have no interest in convincing you or anyone that Islam is true and should be followed, as I myself have some personal challenges internalizing Islamic, and Abrahamic theology in general. My point was that before addressing an issue or posting a comment about religion, be it Islam or whatever, make sure it is genuinely problematic. Meaning that you don’t appear ignorant or manipulative, so that religious people can take you seriously and engage in a dialogues with you. If you’re an atheist then I suppose you consider logic to be your guide and the scientific methodology to be your way of discerning a “hypothesis.” Telling religious people that their religion is backwards and their culture is barbaric while providing some text that can easily be interpreted differently remains a subjective matter that I doubt would have any value added in an enlightened discussion. However, giving yourself time to read extensively on a matter in order to understand all arguments Muslims or otherwise may have, and then counter-argue, that is the essence of Hegelian dialectics, and I think it’s the only way you can start giving your posts some merits.
    Best,
    Yasser

  69. BTW there is no such thing as THE SWORD sura.

    its a title given to a ‘verse’ in AT-TAWBA sura

    which increases my fears of you rambling on from ignorance and from reading Islamophobic internet blogs

  70. but be warned about the consequences of that choice..
    وَمَنْ يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا
    And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell – what an evil destination. 04:115

    This is the quote I have been writing about.
    There is no free will here, this is a clear threat, never ending torture if you do not tow the line.
    And again, this is immoral, infinite punishment for an finite crime (if you can even call it a crime) is immoral.

    And non- belief isn’t a crime.
    How can anybody expect of me that I read some incoherent jumble of writings, some old poems, some rules, some bits plagiarized from the bible, some tales about attacks, genocide of a Jewish tribe, murder of mothers, poets, and tribal leaders, enslavement, rape, etc. etc. and I am supposed to suddenly believe in this invisible friend and his buddy, who seems to get his revelations very pat when he needed them, who changed his mind every now and then, and who did stuff I consider the depths of immorality.

    And if that isn’t bad enough, the people who do fall for this nonsense come along and want me to accommodate them, and follow their crazy rules.
    Or else….

  71. I do not read ”islamophobic” blogs.
    I don’t need to.
    Everything I said is based on the Quran, hadith, and the biography of the prophet. One really doesn’t need anything else.

  72. Nothing bad happens to me if I don’t buy the bananas, if I do I will eat them.
    So what? I am sorry but this is a silly analogy.

    Religion, again, wants real power over me. Religion wants to influence law. Religion wants to curtail the rights of women (to stay on topic)
    Religion is evil. Bananas are yummie.

  73. Aafke-Art, i really want to understand first when you don’t like religion, you deny the Creator, and you don’t believe than what’s the point in reading Quran al Hakeem, biography of Prophet Muhammad and Islamic laws? Just to criticize and finding faults?
    Kindly leave the Islam for Muslims, it’s my religion, my Quran, my Prophet. I believe in every single word said in Quran, I love my Prophet Muhammad, He is the best person human kind ever saw, if you know otherwise give me an example.
    Please stop giving crap you read Quran and biography of Prpohet Muhamamd, you read you don’t understand.
    Islam, Quran al Hakeem and Prophet Muhamamd is like one body, every time I clip my nails I throw it in dustbin, it’s useless for me, dead part of my body, still when it’s attach to my body it’s me, parts of me. Same as the Quran al Hakeem, anyone took any one ayat, state it out of context and saying its doesn’t make sense. My clipped nail doesn’t make sense also.
    Social media cannot accommodate these discussions because of its limitations.
    Kindly spend some more time and efforts and ask your questions from any good well known Muslim scholar, who ever you like. Muslim scholars posses the knowledge and knows the answers. If you are really seeking answers not just want to abusing Islam.

  74. Aafke-Art

    don’t focus on 1 verse that says kill non believers (which is taken out of context) and leave a whole bunch of verses that say: do not kill them,speak gently with them, invite them, and do not force them..etc.

    you say “The Sword which is a later one instructs you to kill all non-believers, so sura al kaffaroon is obrigated by Sura the sword.very disrespectful to people who just happen to believe something else.”

    just because it is a latter one does not mean everything said before was a lie, or else our whole religion would be based on lies and that it is a false accusation.

    for example..

    “Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.” 04:90

    “Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.” 16:125

    Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. 60:8.

    just to name a few.
    __

    “Nothing bad happens to me if I don’t buy the bananas, if I do I will eat them.
    So what? I am sorry but this is a silly analogy.”

    perhaps you are correct i might have used an analogy that did not translate well.. but still, does it give you the right to bash on them just because nothing will happen to you or if you dislike them?

  75. Believing is the part of the whole package, I believe that Allah al Mighty is my creator and my creator knows what’s best for me and what’s not. He told me this the right way, know and believe in the creator , follow what He told is right and what he said is wrong. Than He showed there is the wrong way, I choose to not to believe on Creator, I don’t believe I m accountable for my deeds, I do whatever please me, I did all evil deeds and I’m answerable to no one. Lets say here if you want to punish Hitler for killing so many humans, what’s the punishment you have justifying according to his crime, he killed million, he can be hanged just once, is it equal to the killing of millions?
    So I follow the wrong path and than I believe or not the Creator, all Knower and al Mighty ll account me for my deeds. He craeted me, and than He didn’t leave me to find and know the ways, He send the guidance, I believe and act upon it I ll be rewarded and if I deny and lead astray I will be punished. It’s a whole package. Human now thinks that he is the all knower and all intelligent, so why should obey any superior? Yet a human knows his or her five senses to understand and with just five sense human wished to put Allah al Mighty under the microscope.

  76. AA,

    “Sarah, you asked if I can prove that God does not exist. of course I can’t prove that, you can’t prove a negative.”

    So you admit that it is a negative. Why be negative. Be positive. 🙂

    You can’t see the logic in religion because you choose not to see it. So for those who choose not to, then all their senses and heart will be closed and they will never will be able to see.

    If you seriously want to know, then step out of your box and ask yourself real questions out of wanting to know and not out of hatred. That is when you will begin to see.

    You cannot prove that God does not exist but to prove that He exist is easy.

  77. There isn’t any Surah with the name Sword, sword in Arabic is سيف, there isn’t any Surah with this name.

  78. Salma, I don’t deny ”the Creator” I merely do not see any convincing proof that there is one (or more) ”creator”. If you can show me valid proof I will change my mind.

    I do not like religion because religions are immoral, which you will find out if you read the books belonging to religions, and the effect religions have in societies where they have power.

    I also do not like religions because they never leave you alone, they want to have real power over you, in the real world, and they want you to follow crazy rules based on superstitious nonsense.

    I would be happy to leave Islam to you but I can’t. Because religion doesn’t leave me alone, I can’t read a newspaper without being confronted by another example of Theocratic encroachment on free society.
    Islamic terrorists flew planes into buildings. I think this warrants some investigation into the religion they claimed made them martyrs for a good cause.

    I am very well aware that if I lived in a place like Saudi Arabia I would be forced against my will to live by silly rules, my freedom would be curtailed, my existence as a sentient being would be denied. All in the name of a religion which I don’t believe in.

    This is one of the reasons I have studied religions.
    Don’t come on to me with cheap jibes that ”I just don’t understand”. The Quran is clear and for all people and all time. I understand it very well. And I don’t like it, and I explained why.

    Now as soon as all Muslims keep their religion to themselves, and don’t tell other people what they can do or cannot do, wear, write, make cartoons about, etc. and as soon as they allow apostacy, and allow other religions, and give women full rights, and equality to men, and stop demanding special rights, and special treatment, and stop trying to get blasphemy laws through the UN, and stop blaming and punishing women for getting raped, and stop allowing men to divorce their wives on a whim via a text message, then maybe I will shut up.

  79. Sarah, prove to me that there isn’t a celestial teapot orbiting the earth.

  80. Tell me what does a celestial teapot do? What is its “creations” or features or characteristics? Is it there to keep universe warm?

  81. What is the message of the celestial teapot? What does it require from us?

  82. Salma, You can believe whatever you want. But your believes should not be allowed to curtail mine or anybody else’s freedoms.

    I do not do as I please, I never do anything on purpose which hurts anybody else. I spend my life trying to help others and do good deeds. And I do so because I want other people to be happy, not because I think I will get a reward in some afterlife.
    In this I am more moral than those who fear hell, or expect goodies in heaven.

    Hitler was a Catholic, the Catholic church had masses and all Germans had to pray for Hitler on his birthday, all German soldiers had ”God with us” engraved on their belt buckles. The murder of millions of Jews was based on religions and btw there are still Muslims who rejoice in those horrible crimes today. The hatred against Jews in Christianity and Islam is based on religion.

    It’s mostly the religious who think they are só important that there is an all powerful creator who made the whole universe just for them, they are the ones who think that this all powerful invisible friend cares for them, and elevated them, and that they are the most important creatures of the universe.
    Religion is arrogance disguised as humility.

    Conversly, non-religious people do not think they are the center of the universe, they think that we are just a speck in one galaxy, that there is a whole wondrous universe around us, but it wasn’t created just for us. We think that this life is all we got, so we better make it a good one. For everybody.

  83. Sarah, I tell you, there is a teapot, it is in orbit around the planet it doesn’t do anything, it just exists, and I challenge you to prove to me that that is not so.

  84. Aafke-Art

    How can anybody expect of me that I read some incoherent jumble of writings, some old poems, some rules, some bits plagiarized from the bible, some tales about attacks, genocide of a Jewish tribe, murder of mothers, poets, and tribal leaders, enslavement, rape, etc. etc. and I am supposed to suddenly believe in this invisible friend and his buddy, who seems to get his revelations very pat when he needed them, who changed his mind every now and then, and who did stuff I consider the depths of immorality.
    __

    “12. And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay.13. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. 14. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.15.Then indeed, after that you are to die.” Surat Al-Mu’minūn

    __

    please answer this example and i can give you 20 more if you like,

    How can a man that lived 1400 years ago knows the creation process (e.g.. sperm-drop, clot) of mankind which was only discovered in the 17th century 300 to 400 years ago after the invention of microscopes?

  85. Ah, Mohammed, ok. The people in the time of the prophet were aware of Hellenic medical knowledge, especially Galenic medicine. The Greeks ahd this knowledge centuries before Mohammed. Now Galen wasn’t quite correct in his notions about the creation of an embryo, and his mistakes are repeated in the Quran, for example that the bones are formed first and then clothed with flesh.
    babies are not made of drops of semen which change in cloths of blood.

    Now I can write a looong piece, but have a look at this video, which is more fun to watch than reading a long bit of writing by me.

  86. I’m going to my horse now, but I am looking forward to your next example, which I will answer tonight.

  87. for the above example it is too early for mankind to prove that bones come before flesh.. just like 500 years ago when everybody in the world thought that the earth was flat and anybody that said otherwise was insane. but you will see god-willing the discovery of the fact that bones are created before flesh.
    __

    “And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.” 21:32

    how would a man that lived 1400 years ago know about the earths atmospheres ?
    __

    “So whoever Allah wants to guide – He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide – He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.” 6:125

    how would a man that lived 1400 years ago know that if you climbed to the sky your chest would become tight [ and would require oxygen ].

    IS it not the All Knowing Almighty Allah that told him ?!

    I hope Allah expands your breast to contain Islam and guides you to the straight path, for your sake.

  88. Mohammed, My answer to your first ”proof” is:

    -The description in the Quran is wrong.

    -Mohammed could have known what he did write in the Quran however because this (limited) knowlege was known already by the Greeks and Romans before Mohammed (the prophet) was even born.

    Therefore this revelation is not miraculous. But conversly it does prove that the Quran only contains knowlege which was contemporary at the time.

    May I add that if you want not to have your religion refuted it is far better to stay on the spiritual level?
    If you keep it vague, and supernatural, there isn’t much anybody can refute. But as soon as you come up with ”facts” which turn out to be way outdated, and in the case of embryonic development were already old news at the time of the prophet, it weakens your case.

  89. By the way, as the Greeks and Romans wrote about this semen and clots of blood stuff hundreds of years before Mohammed, and if you really do consider this divinely inspired knowledge, don’t you think you should now convert to the belief in the Roman and Greek gods?
    Because they were there first, they gave this knowledge to the world first.

  90. SãImã Abbasi, on January 5, 2013 at 8:36 am said: Muslim scholars posses the knowledge and knows the answers.

    Interesting! koran claims to be a mubeen (clear) book, written as such. You yourself claimed that koran/mohammed/allah have ALL the answers. Then tell me why would you need these so-called scholars, pseudo imams/moolas, muftis, etc and their fatwa factories to practice Islam?????

    Thanks ….

  91. Actually it was well known at least 1200 year prior to Muhammad’s time that the earth was round. It was actually well known but there has been many particular in some cultures who garner religion to belittle the actually knowledge of the past cultures due to their agendas and use propaganda to diminishes there finding by trying to present the absurd such as the earth was flat. Ancient greeks have a litany of documents talking about the sperical earth.

    Next part of the reason that Gods were put on mountain tops were due to the lack of oxygen as climbing high peaks made it difficult for many to investigate so the higher the mountain top and difficulty in breathing the better. In other words it was well known. Next the ancients were great at studying there environment to include the nightsky. They were more aware of many concepts long before Islam ever existed.

    http://www.hektoeninternational.org/Mesopotamia_medicine.html

  92. why would i convert to an unedited, full of mistakes religion when my believe is clearly the last draft so to speak

    humans are humans from the time of Adam to Jesus to Mohammed peace be upon him ,

    Islam is not bringing something new to the table except when stated otherwise..

    it is introduced as the final religion to regulate mankind and guide them to the correct God.

    in the case of the embryo there maybe similarities and in the time being one cannot prove that it is correct until the time of the discovery comes.

    in the case of the atmospheres they are already discovered and their existence is proven, same goes for the decreasing oxygen level as you rise to the sky, and this information is discovered and proven recently so please stop denying. scientists who know more than you or I could ever know have converted because every time they discovered something they were told that the same thing was said by a prophet of a religion that existed over 1400 years ago.

  93. I cannot convince every narrow minded person in the world who is the True God.

    “..Thus Allah leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills.” 74:31

    but I will say this:

    “They intend to put out the Light of Allah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Quran, and Prophet Muhammad SAW) with their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers hate (it). ” 61:8

    _____

    we will always believe in Allah and we hope that he guides every non-believer to the straight path.

  94. Mohammad:

    Actually narrow minded implies that you only look at it from one culture or one religion’s point of view to exclude all others. The view I have provided is not narrow minded as it encompasses different religions, beliefs and cultures. You are the one who is exhibiting a narrow minded thinking.

    🙂

  95. Mohammad:

    Does Islamic literature contain scientific miracles? Over the last decade growing numbers of Muslims have declared koran to be a book filled with alleged scientific miracles. Numerous web sites, books and videos have been produced that proclaim Islam to be truly a religion of divine origin, citing “scientifically accurate” statements in the koran and hadiths. Many of these productions invariably introduce their claims with a statement like this:

    One of the most remarkable things in the koran is how it deals with science. The koran which was revealed in the 7th century to mohammed pbuh contains unbelievable scientific facts which are being discovered in this century. Scientists are shocked and many times speechless when they are shown how detailed and accurate some verses in the koran are to modern science. For those who doubt the truth of Islam, I ask you: Could mohammad pbuh, a 7th century desert Arab, from a poor and barbaric society, with no tradition of knowledge, philosophy and learning as the Greeks, with no author as prolific as Homer or Plato, an uneducated orphan who could not read and write, produce a book like the koran if it was not from God?

    Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the koran and hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. These claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the koran is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

    wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Science#Science_in_the_Qur.27an

  96. AA,
    ” there is a teapot, it is in orbit around the planet it doesn’t do anything, it just exists”

    There are many things that orbit around the planet doing nothing. Take a telescope and view them. There maybe teapots that dropped out of space shuttles. If you are meaning to say that these teapots are supernatural and have some powers then, you need to elaborate.

  97. I was looking at the Britannica’s book of the year for 2011 and it does provide marriage divorce statistics. Saudi Arabia if its own stats are accurate is not a leader for most divorces. The raw rate is 1 per 1000 people. The rate in the US was listed as 3.4. The book does not print a table with divorce rates so it is not easy to compare without a lot of work. One does not know how accurate those stats are, but the wikislam article doesn’t back up what it says by any reliable source.

    As far as whether Islam’s rules are fair to both sexes, no amount of posturing can change that fact that a woman can be left high and dry without any warning. In the US a woman must be given notice of a divorce. That is a fairer sytem.

  98. Mohammed, *“And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.” 21:32”
    The literal translation of this verse is: And We made/created the sky/space a protected/guarded roof/ceiling, and they are from its verses/evidences/signs objecting/opposing .

    Everybody from the cavemen onward can see that there is a ”sky”.

    The ”sky” is a roof or ceiling according to the Quran. Which it isn’t, and where, ”It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.”

    But the sun and the moon do not ”swim” around the Earth. Nor do they ”swim” in a rounded course. The Earth is a globe which ”swims” around the sun, the moon is a satellite to the Earth.

    91:12 ”By the sun and it’s brightness, and the moon as it follows it”

    The moon does not follow the sun. The moon and sun are not two lights swimming around the Earth, following each other.
    The Earth is in orbit around the sun and the moon is in orbit around the Earth. And the sun itself, with it’s satellites, orbits around the galaxy. It does not ”run to a resting place” as described in the Quran (36:37-38), (and in Egyptian mythology which is thousands of years older than Islam).
    Nor does the sun need for Allah to allow it to rise again (Sahi Muslim book 1 hadith 297) . Because the sun does not ”rise” at all… it only looks like that, but in reality the Earth itself turns.
    And Mohammed clearly did not know this. he only knew what everybody else knew at the time.

  99. bs1, don’t think by running your mouth i would jump to defend or oppose what you are saying, because people like you were written about in a 1400 year old book and only Allah can choose to guide them or keep them in their dark paths..

    READ

    “They intend to put out the Light of Allah with their MOUTHS.
    But Allah will complete His Light even though the disbelievers HATE (IT).” 61:8

    you talk about the Greek gods as if they are never wrong even though many mythological religions came to correct their mistakes and show them who is the one that they should worship, Islam is the last of the Abrahamic religions and it has the last prophet Mohammed peace be upon him and the Qur’an will remain unchanged until the end of days unlike every other previous book.

    it is simple as in everything in the world, one thing is created and after that it gets improved, its like asking me why don’t I buy a steam powered car because it precedes the fuel powered cars.
    __

    X-Moozlum,

    the Qur’an is a clear book, and a lot of Muslims are from around the world, not just Arabic speaking countries.. Allah told us if there is any conflict regarding Islam we should revert it back to the Qur’an and the prophets hadeeths, and ask the educated scholars through the correct channels.. so that they can teach us how to worship Allah in the correct way not the peoples misinformed word of mouth way.

  100. Sorry to burst your bubble, AA, but Galen’s works on embryology is not at all like in the Quran. The Quran gives a detailed picture of embryology and much more than what Galen and others may have said. In the video it is clear that the arabic words are twisted to make it more believable.

    It is amazing – the lengths they go to to bring down the Quran but it stands firm.

  101. Aafke-Art,

    I want Proof that anything you said is correct,

    how would you know if the moon is not swimming in space?

  102. No Sarah, It’s very simple: I claim there is a celestial teapot orbiting the Earth, and I want you to prove there isn’t
    The challenge is for you to prove there is no teapot orbiting the earth.

    Unless of course you believe my statement that there is a celestial teapot orbiting the Earth.
    I am starting to wonder if I did not make a mistake putting this challenge before you….

  103. Aafke-Art,

    apparently you don’t know what a ceiling means , its is a protector from foreign objects , for homes its rain, twisters, sand storms.. etc. for the sky its meteors, toxic gas, harmful rays.. etc.

  104. Mohammed, the Earth in space:
    Beautiful very poetic video

    Then go to you-tube and watch ”Cosmos” by Carl Sagan. Learn. And then we will continue this conversation

  105. I got an end term exam to study for, my future is far more important than arguing with misinformed ignorant people on the internet.

  106. So, I promised I’ll examine the verses that you have posted earlier and I did so lets start:

    – Alcohol isn’t “ok”, and no there is no alcohol in heaven. IT is wine yet still different from the one people are familiar with. It doesn’t have the same effects on the body or on the brain which means no intoxication, meaning that drinking this wine will not harm you in anyway. It says that in the ayah. Plus, why would you compare something from this world with something that is the reward ?? Doesn’t make sense.
    And when we have the one of the praying and alcohol. If again you actually knew the context you would understand. At times when alcohol wasn’t forbidden, it had many nourishment benefits but then the people were drinking so much that it started to affect them and their personal lives. Then God gradually tried to stop it when it started to interfere with their prayers and acts. So, the first step towards the revelation is by forbidding drinking alcohol whilst praying, thus the men will drink less alcohol in order to pray. Then they are told that even though alcohol has benefits, it also has many harms that outweigh these benefits. And then when people reached a point where God believed that they are able to live without this alcohol he said that alcohol is from Satan. Which is a basic method that is even used today when someone us addicted to a drug or alcohol, they gradually decrease the amount so that the brain will be able to cope with absence of the drug or the alcohol, and slowly stop demanding it. As for “touching” woman, it doesn’t actually mean touching when translated into arabic. It basically means that if the man “touches” a woman in an act of lust, meaning sexually or if there was a sexual desire then he should wash and the woman washes too just so that you’d know. To conclude, there were revelations towards forbidding alcohol no contradictions just misunderstanding and misinterpreting.

    – The sacred month verses, I am sorry but they couldn’t be more lame. I don’t see any contradiction what so ever. I says that there 4 sacred months, and then the second verse talks about one of these months. So I don’t see the problem. Reread it and you’ll see for yourself. It doesn’t say there is only one sacred month but it clearly says don’t violate the symbols of Allah during that certain sacred month, it didn’t mention that it is the only sacred month now did it ??

    – Again I don’t see the contradiction in compulsion of Islam. There is no compulsion in Islam I can’t force you or anyone for that matter to follow anything of my Islam. I couldn’t find this verse but I am sure that it was wrote at a time when disbelievers were attacking muslims. I will have to look for the precise verse and then I will give you the real and precise story and context.

    – Then these again don’t contradict. The first reason is because the second verse doesn’t state that those who believe in God, Judgement day, the prophet, etc even if they weren’t Muslims will not be saved. And then it says that Islam is the true Islam of God and it is says God will swiftly call in account, that doesn’t mean they will not be saved. There is another verse that says that all those who believed that there is no God except Allah will all end up in heave, after being punished for their bad deeds. Another thing, some of these religions were present before Islam, and those will also be saved as mentioned in the verse “whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”” Context. Then after Islam was presented some people didn’t accept it because they said they had their own religion. These I can’t really determine what will happen to them because I am not God. Also, the second verse says “whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account”. So, it says they had choice if they believed in Allah and the Ayat of Allah then they are Muslims, while if they disbelieved then Allah is swift in calling to account. To sum it all up, if you believe in Allah and the basics of Islam you are a muslim and will be saved if Allah pleases, of coarse you can’t know because even Muslims can go to hell but they will be saved eventually if and only if they believed that there is no god except Allah.

    – Again look for the context of the second verse and its completion and you will see there is no contradiction. A muslim can have a Christian or whatever type of religion friends. The second verse has a different context and story, and completion.

    – And again the second verse is incomplete. This is the Ayah in Arabic: { الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما أنفقوا من أموالهم فالصالحات قانتات حافظات للغيب بما حفظ الله واللاتي تخافون نشوزهن فعظوهن }
    Man is the protector of woman and they should take care of them this is the meaning of قوامون.
    What does taking care of her mean ? I’ll tell you. It means of she’s Muslim, then he should make sure that: he pays her a dowry, to be kind to her, makes sure that she prays, fasts, wears her head scarf, basically tries his best to ensure that his wife isn’t committing any bad deeds. These deeds are also mentioned above, they translate to: not keeping her husband’s secrets, or her house’s secrets, or basically she is deviating from the Islam teaching’s. Then in this verse god advises the husband on what to do if he notices that she is deviating or committing bad deeds Allah says you advise her which is the translation of فعظوهن and to not sleep with her. And I can go on and on trying to translate this.

    – These are some verses that prove that women and men are equal in status. Equal in status doesn’t mean equal in responsibilities, and not being equal in responsibilities or duties then somethings will be different, one example is divorce. I will not go into details into that because I am running out of time and I have so much work to finish. Anyhow, these are the verses:
    ( فاستجاب لهم ربهم أني لا أضيع عمل عامل منكم من ذكر أو أنثى بعضكم من بعض ) (1) . ( من عمل صالحاً من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فلنحيينه حياة طيبة ولنجزينهم أجرهم بأحسن ما كانوا يعملون ) (2) . ( من عمل سيئة فلا يجزى إلا مثلها ومن عمل صالحاً من ذكر أو أنثى وهو مؤمن فأولئك يدخلون الجنة يرزقون فيها بغير حساب ) (3) .

    The translations:
    And Allah answered them, Allah doesn’t waste anyones deeds wether they are female or male, for you are from and for each other. Which means that Allah looks equally at both men and women, and both receive the corresponding reward to their bad or good deeds. And the other two verses say the same things. Both men and women are equal and will receive equal rewards for their equal deeds. Men have responsibilities and women have them too. Might be different because of the specific things such as physical and emotional aspects but women do have advantages and so do men. For instance, in Islam a mother has been praised over and over again. Research stuff like this not these ill translations that are out of context. Have you for instance read the Hadith about how heaven is under the feet of our mothers ? Or the Hadith about animals cruelty ? Even animals have a place in our religions, even insects. Have you heard about the guy who entered heaven just because he was poor and when he found a thirsty dog he gave it water ? Have you heard about how much the Prophet (pbuh) loved his wives and all his wives were content with their lives ? Have you heard about anything good ? Because even if I had no religion I would choose Islam without hesitation because it endorses love and equality, and not as you claim hatred and wars. Do you know that not once was the word sword written in the Qur’an in Arabic ? Do you know that murder is prohibited ? Beating up your wife and kids brutally are also prohibited. Did you know that if you smile at someone or greet them you get ajar for it. Do you know that our religion endorses love wether between each other or between others with different religions ? Do you know that Islam endorses peace and the only case where someone should result to war is when they are being attacked ? Do you know what it feels like to kneel and talk to god ?? Do you ?! I don’t expect you to know but I know Muslims have felt it and that’s why people are converting to it day by day. Because I know when you visit the Holy Mosque in Mecca and prey there you feel like you are a child free of all bad deeds. Have you ever prayed ? Because I wouldn’t expect to you to feel the amount of happiness and content and relaxation that we feel when we pray. We know that, and we find it our only truth and reality. If it is not yours then NOT OUR PROBLEM. Stop offending other people whether they were jews, christians, or even cow worshipers. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, thoughts, religion, beliefs, etc. If you don’t like ours again not my problem, I would discuss it but you have no manners whatsoever and that discourages me. If you want to listen to what I have to say and be considerate and respectful I will listen and happily engage in this discussion if you are too blinded and biased that you are not going to be a tad respectful to what others have to say. I will not engage in such profanity.

    You really should understand something before offending it. I really think you should look for better resources to get your information because currently you are doing something called an illusionary correlation. And that’s when a person has certain stereotypical thoughts about certain groups of people, and as a result changes everything to make their point right, and avoids or ignores anything that can oppose what your mind is telling you. I have seen your point of view and I respect it, even though, I am not very fond of the language you use. And still insist that you discuss such matters with respect and no need for cursing and insulting. I tried my best to show you my point of view and you can accept it or not, your choice. I am not forcing you to become anything or act in any anyway. I believe that everyone has the freedom of choice and thoughts. Therefore, I am not like what you said trying to impose Islam on anyone i am just defending my own religion and I don’t see the problem with that and i am fine with you criticizing it and trying to pinpoint faults, which you believe and perceive as faults while I don’t . My choice. Just like you don’t want me or Muslims to impose our rules and beliefs on you, I believe you should take your own advice. And try not to impose your own beliefs on us. As I said before, I am fine with an open-minded discussion but your style of discussion is very ill-mannered and closed-minded that I don’t wish to engage in such a thing. Especially when knowing that we will end up disagreeing because you will see what you want to see even if it doesn’t exist, again my choice and opinion could be right could be wrong. But you can’t impose anything of your opinions on me because apparently that’s exactly what you have been arguing in your posts.

    Maram96, you were in spam, this is a recurring problem. If your comments do not get placed please let us know so we can look in the spam folder and take your comment out.
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  107. AA,
    Yes you did make a mistake because you cannot elaborate on it and you cannot mover further than that. If you tell me there is teapot, you have to give me more information than just that it floating out there. You are not telling me a thing about it.

  108. Refer to classic Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan AI-’Arab, Taj AI-’Aroos Min jawahir AI-Qamoos, and Al-Qamoos Al-Muhit

    1st Stage
    “was he not a drop or part of germinal fluid (Mani) emitted or programmed” (Al- Qiyama,37)

    “Let man think from what he is created. He is created from Al Maa-ad Dafiq.” (At-Tariq,86:5-6)

    “Then He made his progeny gently extracted “Sulalah Min Ma’a” from lowly fluid”. (As-Sajdah,8)

    “Verily We created Man from mixture of germinal drop” (Ad-Dahr, 2)

    “Then We placed him a drop (Nutfah) in a place of settlement firmly fixed” (Al-Mu ‘minun, 13)

    “He created you in the wombs of your mothers from one stage to another and all along three veils of darkness surrounded you”. (Al-Zumar, 6)

    “He created (Khalaqah) him from “Nutfah” and immediately laid down the plan or programme (Qadarah) of its (future development)”. (‘Abasa, 19)

    “And He created the two sexes male and female from a drop when ejaculated or planned (Nutfah Idha Tumna) “ (An-Najm, 45-46)

    “Allah knows what every female womb bears and what is penetrating into the womb or decreasing and what is increasing (Al-Ghaydh) “ (Ar-Ra‘ad, 8)

  109. 2nd stage

    “Then of that leech-like structure we made a chewed-like substance, then we made out of that chewed-like substances a skeleton (bones)” (Al-Mu ‘minun, 14)

    [In the video, it is said that it s leech and not resembles a leech, diplaying total lack of Arabic words]

    “Then out of a chewed-like substance partly differentiated and partly undifferentiated (Mokhalaqa wa Ghair Mokhalaqa) “. (Al-Haj, 5)

  110. 3rd stage
    “Who (Allah) created you, made you even and straight (Sawwak) and then modified (Addalak) you. in whatever form (facial features) He wanted. He put you together”. (Surah Al-Infitar, 7-8)

    “Then we made the passage (through the birth canal) easy” (‘Abasa, 20)

    “Mothers shall breast feed their offspring for two whole years, for those who want to complete the breast feeding”. (Al-Baqarah, 233)

  111. Subhan’Allah, all this has only increased our imaan! 🙂

  112. X M, were you born and you started reading and writing or some one taught you? You need teachers to learn A, B, C and everything, still the Quran al Hakeem, the words of the Creator and All Knower you just understand yourself???
    XM, I studied Grays anatomy thrice and I learned it all myself, next time when you need an operation , kindly let me do your operation, I can give you guarantee I read grays anatomy and many other medical books, I understand very well, next time let me operate you. Will you do it?

  113. Sarah, it is my deeply held belief that there is a celestial teapot orbiting the Earth. I feel that the teapot exists. The knowlege of the celestial teapot orbiting the earth makes me happy and gives me strength.

    I challenge you to prove that that celestial teapot does not exist.

    Mohammed, go and prepare for your exams.

    And let this day have been a lesson to you:
    Do not hold pre-conceived ideas about the knowledge of those you discuss with on-line for you will be clobbered before the day is over. :mrgreen:

  114. I have watched all of Sagan’s series. Yes it is very beautiful and leaves one thinking deeply into our very existence. What is the purpose, how we came here, and where do go from here … etc. It all becomes very clear in only one way.

    Yes as I said before, we are only a speck in the entire universe among thre zillions and zillions of huge stars, planets, galaxies, super novas, black holes, and all other celestial bodies (including the teapot).

  115. AA,
    IF you feel that the teapot exists up there, then go ahead, you are free to feel it. What does it have to do with proving it? If its your feeling. Like I feel sleepy, prove that I don’t. It is getting sillier by the minute, don’t you think.

    This is entertaining – Ok so this teapot (pink, is it?) gives you strength. That’s it? Does it send you messages? or pour out your morning tea?

  116. Sarah, I challenge you to prove to me that the celestial teapot does not exist.

  117. I will reply later, AA, got to fry some fish now – vegetarians do eat fish, you know, btw. 🙂

    In the meantime, pls re-read the above comments..

  118. Aafke-Art

    And let this day have been a lesson to you:
    Do not hold pre-conceived ideas about the knowledge of those you discuss with on-line for you will be clobbered before the day is over.

    __

    just because I refuse to continue in taking part of a silly argument does not mean I am admitting defeat or my rational is false or my or anything you might come up with .. clobber away and have fun in this life my friend, but be assured that I will sleep like a baby tonight knowing that I just finished my prayers and insha’ Allah my fellow Muslims and I will be rewarded in the after-life.

  119. I came to the conclusion that it’s impossible to prove God does or doesn’t exist. Because it’s hard to get a consensus over what the null hypothesis should be. And if it were by default “that there is no god” then the alternative hypothesis have yet failed to reject it as we lack empirical data in order to run inference and deduce statistically significant results. It’s a leap of faith guys, a roll of dice (no pun intended).

  120. OK your teapot does not exist to me because, there is no evidence whatsoever unlike the existence of God Who has ample evidences.

    Your teapot, does not even send me tea, leave alone revelations. The teapot did not create anything. It just exists according to you.

    If you are to be beleived, yes maybe I can agree there is such a teapot which had fallen out of some space ship and I will take your word for it (since you are known to be trustworthy and nice by many and there is evidence of this) but that is all there is to it.

    This teapot gives you energy because tea does that to some people – nothing miraculous there. And I am truly happy for you. For all I know it exists and it give you pleasure. So?

  121. Yasser, it can be proved.

    Ok I am going …

  122. “Thou shalt not prove a negative” — the flying spaghetti monster

  123. @Maram96
    Beautiful explanation and TAFSEER of the Ayaats. MAY ALLH bless you and your family. I can say that you have touched the whole QURAN. If someone does not understand it is his/her bad luck.

  124. Sara, It is correct . Thanks

  125. SARAh ,its all correct. These are the challenges of Allah swt. No body on earth can deny.

  126. @mohammed
    I agree.

  127. Definitely, you can not understand because your heart and brain is sealed to understand Allaha’s Words.

  128. NO Sir. Allah says don’t trust them any more after the Quran has been revealed.

  129. No, Yasser got the point. And I am impressed that you have knowledge of the FSM.

    Sarah, Any claim has to be verifiable.
    If you make a claim and you yourself cannot prove your claim you have no right to make this claim. And certainly not to expect other people to believe it.

    Remember you asked me to ”prove that God does not exist”?
    So I asked you to prove that the Celestial Teapot does not exist and you could not do it.
    Don’t worry, nobody can prove it doesn’t exist.

    Now you were ridiculing me a bit in your last comment weren’t you? So if you exchange ”God” for ”teapot” in your last comment you should understand why I don’t believe in your invisible sky daddy.

    It’s actually quite amazing, you sound like me when talking about the silly teapot in the sky.
    And this is something all religious people should think about: You can all see very clearly why other religions are wrong, you can see all their inconsistencies, but when it comes to your own religion then suddenly the blinders go down.

    And this is what religious people should understand about atheists, they do not have blinders for one single religion, we see all religions as bad inventions and not convincing.
    All gods are as unconvincing as the celestial teapot to an atheist. All religions are as unconvincing as the ”other” religions which you also reject,
    That’s all there is to it.

  130. @Aafk-Art,
    I sympathize with you to be honest because I know what it’s like to be shunned for simply being logical. But you have to be a realist. We live in a a world that has been dominated by theism for hundreds of centuries, probably before the discovery of fire. It is embedded in our subconscious. Even if you think you have totally rid yourself of all superstitions, there is probably a remnant of it hiding somewhere in your hippocampus for times of extreme stress. Anyway, I can see things the way you do because I myself was taught to use logic intensively as means for my survival in college; in order to earn my degree in philosophy, economics as well as my minor in religious studies. It endowed me with tools to weigh my beliefs. Being from Saudi Arabia too gave me the far end of spectrum of how to be a religious fundamentalist as I had a very strict upbringing in a religious household. What I was against was not your freedom of expression. I just did not like the fact that you seemed to be shoving atheism in the throats of these believers. Which first of all was not effective, caused negative sentiments against you, and did not show that you understand what being a believer is. These people rely on gut feelings, on indoctrination, and on the psychological solace that religion provides. Such things that are very different than what may appeal to a scientist or a logician that aim to be objective and barren from bias. I advise yo uto watch a documentary on YouTube called “Athen’s Theory of Everything” it might give you an understanding on how religious beliefs really are rooted in our physiology and neuro-bahavior.
    I hope you refrain from attacking religion and resort to using intellectual debates gradually pin-pointing common logical premises which u can build upon.
    Best,
    Yasser

  131. ALL:

    The discussion has gone way beyond the topic of the post. I’d appreciate if you all would move to the Debate Page where you can continue your dialogue.

    Thanks – American Bedu

    On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 1:13 PM, American Bedu

  132. Yasser, you are quite right, I am not too subtle… It would be better if I used the scalpel instead of the blunt axe…
    But I did have fun today 😈
    Anyway, not all religions are bad, I like wicca: female goddesses, candles and incense… And a pretty dress, and full moon. And cookies.
    And I am always happy to help celebrate any religious celebration which involves food and/or candles.

    Carol, I think we have finshed.

    Goodnight everybody 🙂

  133. @Aafke-Art
    My dear friend, there is no need to change your mind. Carry on as you are, you will be rewarded for your deeds.

  134. Definitely there is no SURA “SWORD”.

  135. @Aafke-Art
    Tell me the meanings of the word “QUR’AN”.

  136. SAMI – Take this discussion to the Debate Page.

    On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 4:46 PM, American Bedu

  137. @Aafke-Art
    Compultion in Islam: Ref,109:6 It relates to “no Compromise with Non-Belevers.
    Regarding 8:12. This refers to only in the battlefield.
    I hope it is clear to you. But I believe that you will not change your mind as your heart and brain is sealed to understand Allah’s Words.

  138. Sorry AB, just have to make this comment here and I will go to debate page if necessary. – Thanks.

    AA,

    “If you make a claim and you yourself cannot prove your claim you have no right to make this claim. And certainly not to expect other people to believe it”

    You claimed that there is not “sky-daddy” but you could not prove it so you have no right to make this claim and certainly not to except others to believe it.

    And do you think I didn’t know what you were leading to with that tea-pot philosophy? I mean, really? How lame can you get.

    Do remember I said that if you are trustworthy and reliable, I have no problem believing in your tea-pot. So its there, so what!? As long as it is floating, I have no problem with that and if it is making you feel good then I am happy for you.

    Prophet Muhammad (saas) was a very reliable, trustworthy, believable, honest and sincere man. People accepted him for who he was – people who saw him, heard him and knew his ways (unlike us). He provided evidence and bought revelations send down to him. There is no way this can be compared to a teapot. BTW, I was going to say (if you had said that your pot had power), that god can have any name as long as you refer to that one God.

    Can you prove your tea pot exist? No because it does not do anything except give you some security. Can you prove that it does not exist? It does not matter because it is not doing anything.

    Please do not belittle me by saying I sound like you. You bought the teapot but it did not go anywhere did it? But good try.

  139. It’s so cute that you were actually willing to believe in the celestial teapot!

  140. From the gist of her comment, I gather that Sarah said she will be happy for you if you wish to believe in a celestial teapot,whatever the hell that is. Not that she believes in one. My question remains, why can’t you be happy that we have faith in God and find solace in Him even if you don’t? Why the need to brand us as backward and barbaric? There is more to life than what meets the eye, maybe you don’t get that but pray leave us in peace. You’re preaching atheism like Jimmy Swaggart is with his crooked version of Christianity

  141. Mrs B,
    Sarah said in an earlier comment she was willing to believe in the celestial teapot. Which doesn’t surprise me. After all a celestial teapot is nothing compared to an invisible skydaddy who will torture you for all eternity if you do something this needy sadistic entity doesn’t like.
    So you have to be able to believe a lot on no evidence at all. Then why not a teapot?

    I do not call you personally barbaric, I call your religion barbaric and this opinion is based on the holy books of your religion. Do I need to put the list up again? Slavery, rape, genocide, murders and assassinations, inequality of men and women. These crimes are all endorsed, even celebrated by your holy books and I consider that barbaric. Of course you don’t have to. You are free to think for yourself and consider them the wisdom of the invisible skydaddy.

    But I understand you take it personally, that’s how the human brain works: when they investigate people’s brains they find that the spot which activates when they talk about god is the same as when they talk about themselves. For some reason this god thing is literally personal. Know that I do not mean it to be personal when I point out the fallacies and immorality of religions.

    Again, if religions would leave me alone, I would feel no need to bother. But because I cannot open a news paper, or read on the internet without being confronted by another example of Theocratic encroachment on free society, I feel the need to keep speaking up.
    I do not want to live in an age of darkness because religion has been given free sway.

  142. AA,
    Listen, whether there is teapot or gorilla floating in the sky, it makes no difference because it does not do anything other than give you happiness and energy. So good for you and I am happy for that.

    Yes I am willing to believe in a teapot as long as it fell out of a space ship or somehow got there – it can happen, nothing unusual there. It can be proven because of the nature of the teapots.

    But if you say that this teapot is something divine, then you need to be trustworthy, reliable, known to be telling the truth, credible …etc and you need to come up with more than saying there is a teapot up there. BUT god is known by many different names – maybe in your books, it is teapot. If it is your god then it is living in a created atmosphere. Your example is actually not a good one, sorry to say but good try.

    You still have to prove there is no god. Don’t give me that you can’t prove a negative. Negative is the absence of positive. So prove that there is no postive and you will prove the negative.

    ” if religions would leave me alone, I would feel no need to bother”

    If you want religion to leave you alone, why do you read so many religious books such as hadith, Quran (you say you have these boks and you read them all) and why do you browse through youtube looking for vids that match your thoughts, why do you even talk about it. Mind boggles.

  143. I suppose I should not have used the word ”barbaric”. Yasser was right, I need to work on my use of language.

    Let’s put it this way; ”I find the books of the Abrahamic religions (Torah, Bible and Quran) seriously flawed on moral grounds”.
    How about that? Better?

  144. Aafke, Reading your last post, I take it you already watched Athen’s Theory of Everything? You started to sound kinda like me lol I was gonna recommend the Zeitgeist “moving forward” (Actually still think it’s one of the best documentaries tackling societal issues out there) but I guess that’s a bit of a conspiracy theorist approach. Anyway, theists literally become defensive, and you really can’t blame them. After all, they are betting their whole life on things they have never encountered by their senses nor logic. A bet with a high risk premium if you ask me.
    But, laissez faire buddy. If you live in the US or any civilized western society then you have nothing to worry about. It’s only when you go though one of my days in Saudi that you will really feel you wanna go cuckoo lol

  145. And where this all started, in Islam a man can arbitrarily divorce his wife by telling, writing or texting her that she is divorced.
    There is nothing to stop him.
    If a woman wants to divorce her husband she has to go through a long and difficult process where she will be questioned by a judge and the judge will decide if she can be divorced, it’s not her decision anymore, it’s another man who makes the decision.

    Is it equal?
    I think we all agree it is not.
    Is it just?
    I think not. But, as it is religion, and the injustice is based on religion (as the first commentators made clear) those who follow the religion say it is just after all.
    Now that is something we could discuss. I think in the rules for divorce the religion twists the believers morality into supporting something they would otherwise consider unjust and which they otherwise would not support.

    What if this practice were translated into something else?
    Instead of divorce we make it about being fired from your job.
    What if instead of a man we make it a Christian, and instead of a woman a Muslim.

    So, a Christian can fire a Muslim from their job without any process, just by telling him/her so. And the Christian does not have to pay the Muslim any salary.

    A Muslim cannot fire a Christian from their job without going to court first, and they can only go to court if a Christian backs them up. If the Muslim gets permission to fire the Christian, the Muslim has to pay the Christian a month of salary extra.

    How does that sound?
    Fair or unfair?

  146. Yasser, I will watch ”Zeitgeist”, thanks for the tip.
    I live in the Netherlands.

  147. ” in Islam a man can arbitrarily divorce his wife by telling, writing or texting her that she is divorced”

    That is not true! I have explained the Islamic divorce above in length.

    The wife can take her case to the court and she has got full right for divorce as per the ISLAMIC law. Remember the word “kula” is not from the Quran. The Quran uses the word “talaq” for both. For both the husband and wife, talaq is no easy matter. In all cases a judge and artibers are assigned. If no settlement can be reached then the artibrers will declare the disolving of the marriage. And for a man things like menses, pregnancy needs to be looked into.

  148. All I’m going to add is that these reckless men who divorces their wives as such should be rounded up, thrown into the Sahara and let the wild beasts maul them one by one for I do NOT endorse such ‘dzalim’ act. I swear overtime I read about wife abusing (yes this is a form of abuse) i wish to gallop away on Aafke’s horse and round up these losers up cowboy style.

  149. You are welcome to borrow the Tarq for this mission anytime!
    He might actually help you by giving them a nip here and there… 😈

  150. Aafke-Art,

    If a woman wants to divorce her husband she has to go through a long and difficult process where she will be questioned by a judge and the judge will decide if she can be divorced, it’s not her decision anymore, it’s another man who makes the decision.

    Is it equal?
    I think we all agree it is not.
    Is it just?
    I think not.

    ___

    Lets face it, women have been scientifically proven to have physiological changes caused by unstable hormones noticeable in the monthly menstrual cycle and/or for example: postpartum depression.

    they do not have the mental stability that men have due to the fact that their bodies are created differently, so to answer your question, Is it equal? then I and every other rationally thinking person would say No, but that’s how we were created, you cant ask a man to carry a baby for 9 months because it is not in his power to do so.

    that’s why the woman has to provide probable cause for the divorce so its not just a single outbreak caused by unstable hormones.. whilst the man is probably in his full state of mind when he made the decision.

    in relation to the article you forgot that he gave her an ultimatum, Him or the internet .. she chose the internet, and I personally think its a stupid move, who cares about anonymous followers on twitter more than they care about their husband and the father of their children ?!!.

  151. Mohammed, you need to study.

    But ok, here’s my view:

    All women are different, some women experience obvious mood swings, other women notice no difference at all during their cycle. When you realize this you will understand how unfair it is to judge all women as exactly the same, and only by the ”worst case scenario”.

    Research also shows that men have an equal amount of bouts of ”mental instability” as women. But you are right, there is a difference: In women they tend to be linked to their hormonal cycle. In men they are completely unpredictable.
    Seen from that light women have a distinct advantage over men, as they can relate their mood swings to their cycle, and men cannot.

    When a man divorces his wife he could be experiencing a testosterone surge, (men have hormones too you know), therefore he could be experiencing a completely unexpected emotional outbreak.

    So you see, men and women both have periods of mood swings, or, if you will, ”mental instability”, therefore neither should be allowed to arbitrarily divorce the other on a whim.
    However, both should be allowed to go to a fair and just court if they are not happy together, and they should have an equal share of the property of the marriage, and visiting rights to the children who should be placed with which ever parent has the best capabilities of looking after the children.

    This is the only just way to deal with divorce. And the way Islam deals with divorce is not just.

  152. Aafke-Art,

    you need to read more about Islams ways,

    it is the most just system ever created..

    “It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good” 2:236

    in Islam after divorcing, the man is supposed to give his wife as much money as he possibly can..

    and if he did not divorce her by mouth three times then he must provide a home and an allowance for the woman until her third menstrual cycle appears (“because she can still return to him if she did not bleed three times”) . and he must provide for his children (if there are any) until they are adults AND capable of earning money.

    as for custody, both underage boys and girls must go with the mother as long as she is a good parent and did not remarry, when the children reach 7 years old they can choose which parent they would like to live with unless the chosen parent is unfit for custody or there are arguments among the parents, then the judge must choose the better parent for the children . and even if the judge gave sole custody to a parent, the other parent still has visiting rights.

    worth mentioning – http://www.sauress.com/en/spaen/193714

  153. @Mohammed,

    I have been reading this thread and just had to come out and correct some of the misinformation you presnt. All what you post here is the standard platitudes like ” (Islam) is the most just system ever created..” It is like you feel by saying a statement, it magically becomes true and you do not have the obligation to back that statement up.

    The funny part is you follow that, by contradicting yourself in the same comment. That is, you say Islam requires a man to take care of woman after the divorce by the highest mean he can afford, only to contradict that statement by saying he only has to do it for three menstrual cycles a couple of sentences later. By the way the later one is accurate.

    Islam also does not address the issue of distribution of marital assets between divorced couples. Everything is assumed to be the man’s assets, unless the woman had direct ownership of those assets (example assets brought into the marriage and/or assets accumulated through a job or a business the woman owned). The unfairness of this is that a woman can spend many years taking care of a man’s home/children and he can divorce her in a minute of anger and all the wealth accumulated during the marriage is not shared. There is also a side effect of giving unlimited power to a man since he will not have a significant financial penalty for the divorce on top of the unwarranted power of ending the marriage at anytime of his choosing.

    Further your presentation of the custody issue is too simplistic. Custody is more complex with different rulings by each school of Islamic Shariia. There is no agreement between the schools on what age is the trigger age for custody transfer from mother to father. The schools also differ in the choice given to boys verses girls once the trigger happens. Additionally, mothers lose all of their rights of custody if they remarry.

    In Saudi Arabia, the law is the father will have the say on custody of a girl after she reaches the age of 7. Boys do get a choice after the age of 9.

    The point Mohammad, Islam does not provide the fairest approach to these issues. The schools of Shariia cannot even agree on the rules to begin with. This by definition contradicts your argument that Isalm has the most just system.

    Contrast that with secular laws, where men and women are treated equally in a court of law on all issues of custody and financial obligations. The issues can be resolved under the law based on the merit of the cases presented by the divorced parents.

  154. AA,
    How ever much the correct view is presented to you, you simply cannot digest it and you continue to harp on your own made-up silly views on divorce. This shows that you are not interested to know the true dirvorce system but prefer to continue bash Islam on all sides. To me this is very childish and not worth pursuing. I have no idea about the education system in Netherlands or if this has anything to do with your negative approach with anything Islamic. I must find out.

    No one can divorce on a whim, both man and woman have to “work” to get one. It is not easy on both sides and is a long procedure. I suggest you read more on this subject from correct sources. It will educate you.

    And yes, divorce in Islam is most fair and just.

    Thanks.

  155. Moq:

    Hope you stick around for a while.

    I have come to agree more and more with this quote:

    There is no debating with a zealot. You walk away if they are harmless and you lock them up if they become violent. The exception is if you gain entertainment and exercise in the endeavor. Then it is as useful as lifting weights… in the end they are back where they started but you have had a nice workout.

    I thought you of all people would truly appreciate it and I have no doubt will have cause to invoke this quote at some point.

    May your head land softly upon the brick wall.

    Big. 😀

  156. I actually agree with you Bigstick, even if not in your favor.

  157. @MoQ I don’t know where you got your information but you are the one that has been misinformed, I am Saudi Arabian born and raised in a family of prestigious scholars, when you said that boys have the choice at 9 years old, that is completely and utterly false, and even contradicts the prayer order given to parents by the prophet to teach their children how to pray at 7 and to punish them after 10 if they don’t. surely prayer is more important than who gets custody.

    all of my information that i have provided are either from the Qur’an or from the prophets ahadeeth.

    (” It is like you feel by saying a statement, it magically becomes true and you do not have the obligation to back that statement up. “)

    I have never stated anything without backing it up to educate misinformed people like AA and yourself.

    surely Islam does not require proofs because anyone that reads the Qur’an can see for their selfs that is why it is up to us to educate you non-believers/ignorants.

  158. @Mohammed,

    “I am Saudi Arabian born and raised in a family of prestigious scholars,”

    I guess this makes you THE Islamic authority as compared to the top scholars of Islam – AsShafaii, Malik Ibn Anas, Ibin Hambal and Abu Hunaifa, who do not agree on the rules of custody. By the way in any debate when the person starts the support of their argument by “I” it shows weakness and is usually a dead give away that what follows is a bunch of bulls**t arguments. It is called the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. Please do not feel that you have to thank me for that lesson, it is my daily contribution for educating the ignorant.

    I am also not sure what is the relationship between prayer and the Saudi law of custody. They are 2 different things at least in the context of discussing Saudi law. Saudi Arabia does not follow the rules of the Hanbali school when it comes to custody, although Hanbali is the basis of many of the laws of the country. That is, the Hanbali school does allow both girls and boys to make choices on which parent to live with at the trigger age. Saudi Arabia does give the choice only to boys.

    “surely Islam does not require proofs because anyone that reads the Qur’an can see for their selfs that is why it is up to us to educate you non-believers/ignorants.”

    For your information I read the Qur’an in Arabic many times and I do not see anything miraculous in it. Just another platitude of yours instead of actually supporting your position.

    My last point little grasshopper, you need to learn a little about the rules of debates. Making statements that everyone opposing you is ignorant and making assumptions about their knowledge is not an argument. It shows that you have lack of confidence in your ability to engage in an intellectual debate. These are little kids tricks, which never work in open forums with educated people.

  159. @bigstick1,

    Actually there are a lot of benefits from debating the zealots. Of course you have very little chance of changing their mind or making them see the world in a logical way. However, the audience of these debates are more than who you are talking to directly. There are many people that read this blog and we educate each other through these discussions.

    I do read the blog now and then as time allows. Not sure if I can stick around very long however due to my schedule. But I see you have been busy carrying on the banner and earning the prize of top commentator of the year 🙂

  160. @MoQ

    when I stated the information about myself it was to clarify where I come from and what I am basing my information on..

    I did not say that I am better than any of the great scholars which you have mentioned whom every Muslim respects dearly, but I am educated in Islamic Law better than non Muslims to say the least..

    we have been studying Islamic teaching since we were in the elementary school, learning from present respected scholars who have studied under great scholars like Mohammed Ibn Abdulwahhab who in respect studied the teaching of the great and respected Imam Malik and others.

    Saudi law is sharia law, there is no segregation between church and state. keep your philosophical lessons to yourself, I base my opinions on FACTS, not thoughts.

    when an outsider tells me how law works in my own home then that is when i know he is full of BS.

  161. @MoQ,

    “Making statements that everyone opposing you is ignorant and making assumptions about their knowledge is not an argument.”
    __

    you are not opposing me, you are opposing my religion because every fact that I have written about was quoted from the Qur’an and/or ahadeeth.

    when you oppose written facts in Islam then you are considered an ignorant in Islamic teachings in particular. even if you are highly educated in your own respected field.

  162. @Mohammed, First mistake, claiming that Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab is a “great” scholar remains a subjective issue to MOST Muslims. Just look around and see how much love he gets elsewhere in the Muslim world. Secondly, Ibn Abdulwahhab actually followed the doctrine of Ibn Taimiyya, not Malik. Get your facts right. 🙂
    Oh, and I think it’s rather arrogant to tell MoQ that he has no right in discussing issues pertaining to Saudi simply because he’s an outsider. I think his comments are well-balanced and he seems to be well-informed.

  163. @Mohammed. I agree with Yasser- you may think Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab is a great scholar- but many of us have seen no evidence whatsoever to support that view.

    And Saudi does not practice Sharia law- except those parts which agree with it’s Patriarchal/Tribal belief’s- which are valued by many as above Islam. Islam is better than that.

  164. Ah Yaseer , Moq being well informed is debatable and as you are in favor of his understanding in regards to Islam well so be it. As for arrogance, Moq isn’t that guiltf-free. I believe if a Muslim wants to learn Islam, learn it from a Muslim scholar due to various reasons and the most obvious reason being he is less likely to dissuade you from its teachings. That’s just my humble opinion. Moq has the tendency to twist the Quranic verses with disregards to context of timeline, and perhaps snip off parts that disqualifies his arguments.

  165. @yasser your mistake is: just because you don’t personally like what he preaches does not mean what he says is false.

    I never claimed he followed one person over the other, he studied all of the major scholars teachings. there is a difference between studying multiple doctrines and following one in particular.

    the only hate he gets in the Muslim world (if any) is from the Shia who are arguably considered by many scholars to be Non-Muslim.

    read up brother http://www.saaid.net/monawein/m/44.htm

  166. @Mohammed,
    I can read and learn about Kabbalah or Scientology, doesn’t make me one. Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab did NOT have the luxury to learn about various Islamic schools. In Uyainah (his hometown) he was opposed by his own brother Sulaiman after coming back from his visit to Madinah for holding extreme views and propagating his extreme understanding onto others. He was then accommodated by Bani Khaled in Ahsaa (out of goodwill) as a refugee, who later on could not stand his extremism and kicked him to Dar’iyyah where he met Muhammad ibn Saud, the forefather of the current monarch. If you’re truly fond of Ibn Abdulwahhab I suggest to read his turjumah (biography) written by shaikh Saleh Al-Fawzan (a member of the Standing Committee in Saudi Arabia), you will find that he hardly went anywhere beyond Hijaz (where he was influenced by Hanbal scholars such as Hayat Alsindi), Iraq, and Ahsa (the eastern province). Now, if you know anything about Arabia’s history, you would know it was under the Ottomans’ ruling (who were Ash’arites and Matureedis), who opposed Hanbalis, and in some occasions persecuted and imprisoned them. The Ottomans, whom at the time were allies of Britain’s enemies saw a rare opportunity in supporting Ibn Saud and his fostering the momentum of his religious movement. It was a perfect symphony born from the marriage of religion and politics, and the Brits gave unconditional support to the rise of this newborn state as an extension to the Great Arab Revolution, providing an added kick to weaken the Ottomans’ stance in Arabia. Oh and don’t start on the Shia please, your sectarianism can only show how you can’t face your own dilemmas that you have to constantly scapegoat minorities in your own society. Shame!

  167. @mohammed,
    “Saudi law is sharia law, ”
    thsi statement of yours is completly false.. saudi law is a BAD copy and application of sharia law.
    never make this statement, it’s an insult to a million muslims everywhere. !!!!!

    saudi law is not just or fair or islamic, it is simply a man made derrivate of what passes for shariat.
    read your holy book carefully and see the judgements and rules followed in saudi with wide open mind and eyes and then type such statements.
    I have never seen such a badly applied form of sharia law anywhere else inthe world.

    and if you still say saudi indeed follows sharia completly and correctly then sharia is the mist unjust law ( somehow i can’t believe that)…so guess saudi is the culprit here.

  168. @Yasser,
    when minorities as yourself that believe they evolved from apes and poeple that spread lies like Mohammed Ibn Abdulwahhab has his own religion then I have to clear the boundaries so that you don’t fog anyone’s vision in the matter.

    Wahhabi is a term popularized by The Shia to be used as a derogatory term to Mohammed Ibn Abdulwahhab and his followers.

    also, throwing false accusations in the name of one scholar does not mean that I would instantly believe you, again you undermine me, I have the book both in Arabic and translated to English and it is one of the books that I have read the most.

    the shaikh had all but kind words to say about him: “he traveled by choice in order to educate the ignorant at the time and urge them to go back to worshiping Allah”

    maybe you need to hear it from his mouth in case you don’t believe me when I quote his book..

    at 7:40, funny how your words state they accepted him (out of good will) when the shaikh clearly stated he left Al Uyainah by choice to follow his father and stayed in order to preach and urge the people to get back to worshiping Allah.

    Finally maybe you need to read this statement that was made by “Mohammed Ibn Abdulwahhab” before he started preaching and urging people to go back to worshiping Allah.. he says and I quote:

    يقول : « أُشهد الله ومن حضرني من الملائكة وأُشهدكم أني أعتقد ما اعتقده أهل السنة والجماعة من الإيمان بالله وملائكته وكتبه ورسله والبعث والموت ، والإيمان بالقدر خيره وشره , ومن الإيمان بالله : الإيمان بما وصف به نفسه في كتابه وعلى لسان رسوله من غير تحريف ولا تعطيل ، بل أعتقد أن الله ( ليس كمثله شيء ) فلا أنفي عنه ما وصف به نفسه ، ولا أحرف الكلم عن مواضعه ، ولا أُلحد في أسمائه وآياته , وأعتقد أن القرآن كلام الله منزل غير مخلوق منه بدا وإليه يعود , وأُؤمن بأن نبينا محمدا – صلى الله عليه وسلم – خاتم النبيين والمرسلين لا يصح إيمان عبد حتى يؤمن برسالته ويشهد بنبوته , وإذا بانت لنا سنة صحيحة من رسول الله عملنا بها ، ولا نقدم عليها قول أحد كائنا من كان ، بل نتلقاها بالقبول والتسليم لأن رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – في صدورنا أجل وأعظم من أن نقدم عليه قول أحد , فهذا الذي نعتقده وندين الله به.

    وأعتقد أن الإيمان قول باللسان وعمل بالأركان واعتقاد بالجنان ، يزيد بالطاعة وينقص بالمعصية , وأتولى أصحاب رسول الله , وأذكر محاسنهم ، وأعتقد فضلهم ، وأترضى عن أمهات المؤمنين المطهرات من كل سوء ، وأقر بكرامات الأولياء .

    إن عقيدتي وديني الذي أدين الله به : مذهب أهل السنة والجماعة الذي عليه أئمة المسلمين مثل : الأئمة الأربعة وأتباعهم إلى يوم القيامة.

    هذه عقيدة موجزة حررتها لتطلعوا على ماعندي والله على ما أقول شهيد ».

    the line before the last clearly states that calling him or his followers Wahhabis is just as saying all of the major four Imams are wahhabis, He and them share the same religion and the same doctrine.

  169. @Radha, Saudi Arabia is just like every other country and its people are like every other people in the world

    they make the same mistakes, but at least they try to comply with Allah’s Laws as much as they can.

    but Yes, you are somewhat correct, what I meant to say is that Saudi Law is completely based on sharia Law even though its applications can vary according to each case and the scholars’ understanding of Islams’ teachings.

  170. @Redha, “I have never seen such a badly applied form of sharia law anywhere else in the world.”

    If you don’t mind would you please state the countries that fully apply sharia Law and do not segregate church and state. and please rate them according to your view of justice.

  171. I will answer my question for you, Currently there are only three countries in the whole world that apply sharia law solely as their justice system:

    1. Saudi Arabia
    2. Yemen
    3. Libya

    Libya have only recently become a Sharia Law ( solely ) applying country after the death of “Moammar”

    so I don’t know how this statement “I have never seen such a badly applied form of sharia law anywhere else in the world.” could be said when there are only two countries that fully apply Sharia Law since their unification.

  172. sorry for the re-post it got disappeared

  173. Mohammed, what Radha is trying to say is that Saudi pretends to apply Sharia, but it’s corrupted, crooked, bias etc. Some of us know this, unfortunately others believe Saudi represents Islam & Saudis Muslims. On paper it might they it follows Allah SWT’s laws, but really it doesn’t. These laws only apply to certain folks.

  174. @Rahma, you do realize that you are insulting Me, my Family, my fellow Countrymen and my Country with your comment.

    as I said to Radha earlier, every country has its faults, but to label the entire Saudi Justice System as corrupted based on singular cases is even worse. (He Who Lives in a Glass House Shouldn’t Throw Stones at Others)

  175. @Mohammed,

    I am really disappointed that you have not provided any tangible counter arguments to my posts. You just referred back to the “I” answers. Like the examples bellow:

    “we have been studying Islamic teaching since we were in the elementary school, learning from present respected scholars…”

    Claiming that you have knowledge of something and that makes you the authority is not an argument. You are doubling down on the Logical Fallacy. You actually assume that your knowledge of the religion is better than others without any basis for that claim. Have you thought that may be just may be I have studied Islam more than you have. I just do not agree with it!!!

    “you are not opposing me, you are opposing my religion because every fact that I have written about was quoted from the Qur’an and/or ahadeeth.”

    Again you are not getting the point Mohammad. The 4 great Islamic scholars of the Madhabs read the same Ahadeith and the Qura’an and all 4 of them have come up with different opinions about the intricacies of how custody is handled (note Laws are about intricacies). In Islam there is no 1 Shariia law as Islam is open to the interpretation of different scholars (including your Abdulwahab). Due to to all of the different interpretations Islamic Law has divided into at least 4 schools of thoughts called the Madhabs (and that is just in Sunni Islam). Now it seems we also have the Mohammad of AmericanBedu version since you claim everything you say is based on your interpretation of Hadith and Qura’an. If you do not understand the conncept of teh Madhabs crating different versions of Shariia then you have already flunked Figh 101.

    Now back to the Saudi version of choice for children on which parent. Saudi as usual took the most restrictive interpretation against the mother/woman which comes from the Hanafi version (i.e. Boys get a choice at age 9, girls do not get a choice as the father decides). They chose to ignore the usually standard use of Ibn Hanbal teachings (which gave both a choice at age 7).

    In your exchange with Yaser you also presented another misinformation and I quote you here:

    “Wahhabi is a term popularized by The Shia to be used as a derogatory term to Mohammed Ibn Abdulwahhab and his followers”

    For your information the term Wahabi was not popularized by Shiiat. It was actually created by Suliman the brother of Ibn Abdulwahab. This is even recorded in the title of the book written by Suliman الصواعق الالهية في الرد على الوهابية or “the godly thunderous replies to Wahabbism”.

    You seem to never read anything with a critical eye. Your knowledge of Islam and history seems to be limited by only what you have been fed by the Saudi educational system, which sets a very low par for developing critical thinking skills.

    I will stop here since there are just way too many fallacies and misinformation in the lengthy comments you have here. It will take days to unwind all of them. I can rest in the fact that intelligent readers can see through your bad arguments and platitudes.

  176. @MoQ, and every other opposer for that matter..

    to conclude my replies…

    every person in the world can make mistakes, but the better person who can admit that they made them and try to learn from them.
    __

    Saudi Arabia is one of two countries in the world that Use Sharia Law solely as their justice system, and it has not segregated church and state since unification to this day.

    Mohammed Ibn abdul wahhab based our Law on ALL of the four Madhabs and did not follow one over the other, which means it combined the most of the prophets teachings.

    and you cannot tell us to choose a single Madhab as a basis for our law because there weren’t any Madhabs at the time of the prophet peace be upon him.

    But they have appeared because some of the prophets teachings remained in some areas of the world and did not spread, ALL of the Madhabs are personal efforts made by the respected Imams based on the teachings that they have.

    Mohammed Ibn Abdul wahhab “in short” testifies that he is a worshiper of Allah and testifies that Mohammed is his messenger, he also stated that he follows the Sunnah teachings which all of the four major Imams and their followers follow.

    __

    We are an Islamic country that is governed by Sharia Law, and we have an obligation to remain so.. because we are responsible for all the Muslims that come to our country for the sole purpose of worshiping Allah in either Mekkah or Medina and we are looked upon in any manner regarding Islam for the above reason as well.

    People that want to change our leaders and change our Islamic Laws are NOT welcome in this country because their actions are considered an act of war against our Islamic duties.

    and I personally believe that any person that would like to do so should be deported to a country that accepts them.

    and I hope that I am able to see the day that every single Non-Muslim had converted to Islam or had left the Muslim Land to the Muslims.

    as for our country.. any unsanctioned change in Sharia Law is a change that furthers us away from Islam, and we do not accept that PERIOD.

    farewell bloggers, I hope your hearts fill with the love of Allah.

  177. @Mohammed,

    WOW, A long lecture about Saudi Arabia complying with your established tradition of platitudes. I guess these help you mend your bruised ego when you cannot debate the topic. Which was “the rules of custody” in Islam and Saudi Arabia.

    Your latest reply is just a long list of assumptions about the world, people motives, politics, etc. None of it is on topic. For me I take that as a sign that really you cannot present your case so you pivot to unrelated topics.

    Cheers!!!

  178. @MoQ,

    whatever floats your boat, I really don’t care what you think about any of my statements. I just hoped to educate some ignorant people in this blog.

  179. That’s right, that’s all you do; make statements.
    You have not countered even one argument made by me or Yasser or Moq, all you wrote was Saudi propaganda.
    And you haven’t completed the list of ”scientific miracles” in the Quran. Up to now you only provided 2 for me to debunk.

  180. don’t get sad, you can still go and search for yourself..

    I am done being a personal tutor for a bunch of sheep who refuse every fact they don’t agree with,

    ITS LIKE TALKING TO A WALL.

  181. I forgot to add, Mohammed, you are a very good example of the ”Dunning-Kruger effect”.

  182. aah yes showing real class there AA, don’t forget when pointing your finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at you

  183. also the reason that this is not a correct example about myself is because it states that :

    ” is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average.This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes”

    I do recognize my mistakes and I do work on treating them lets hope you do too.

  184. @mohammed,

    you don’t seem to understand what i said – saudi DOES not follow ISLAMIC law . it claims to follow it in paper but in actual practise it does not..

    yes every country has flaws, but all of them have codified laws that if not followed the judges can be challenged.
    Sure sharia is codified however when saudi blatently applies it wrongly ( in many many cases) or rather in most cases where women are concerned then it reflects on islam. when you tom tom the fact that saudi is a upholder of islam then it should be followed by appropriate actions.

    by not doing so they are harming islam and their citizens ( or atleats half of them) who trust and beleive in the sharia.

    and i certainly don’t mean any insult to your family . sharia is not open to every and any judge’s interpretations. If it’s laws set by god then everyone better follow it to the letter otherwise what’s the big deal.
    in saudi the judges write the law book as they feel , they decide on judgement without any great wisdom but with their interpretations of sharia.

    like i said the leaset saudi could do is atleast send them to the same school
    🙂

  185. what you are talking about does not exceed 10% of all cases ( and I am giving you a stretch here )

    Radha if you are a true Muslim then I hope you remember what Allah said in regards to going into peoples intentions and talking about them behind their backs..

    “O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful.” 59:12

    you seem to be captivated by the word interpretation, In Sharia Law it is a word describing how a judge chooses his decision based on the case at hand, but the overall decision comes from Islams teachings not from the creation of the scholar. For example when he sees an abusive father then he will clearly choose the mother for custody based on his interpretation of the Law in this particular case,and he couldn’t say OK the children will go live with their teachers ! same goes for the other way around.

    I hope you understood my examples

  186. Mohammed, did you read the whole of the Wiki article you paste copied from?
    Here’s another bit of paste-copy:

    Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

    1- tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
    2- fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
    3- fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
    4- recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill

    Mark number 4, there is still hope; if you just have another good read of the comments we honored you with, you might learn something and lessen the Dunning-Kruger effect.

  187. @Aafke-Art, I think you should stop addressing messages to me because I clearly stated that I am not going to partake in closed ear discussions. move along now.

  188. @Muhammad, Do you really have to twist up things in order to make a case against it? I never said Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab followed a different religion, I said a different school of thought which was extreme. My ancestors come from Shaqra, and the elders still hold a grudge against him because he attacked the whole village, sparing no one, and raping women under the premise that they were mushrikeen (polytheists). It served him well, writing his book Kitab At-Tawheed, And the 10 Nullifiers of Islam which also became his political manifesto.
    Also, I never said we descended from apes. We are homo sapiens; a species that descended from neanderthals. so that makes apes such as bonobos our distant cousins 🙂
    I see you hardly counter argue anything here, but I can’t blame you since in Saudi we never learned to argue anything and critical thinking is a taboo. God bless America, it saved me from becoming a puppet like you.

  189. Moq:

    I understand. I’ll keep plugging along. So here is to the good debate. 🙂

    Cheers.

  190. @Yasser, good for you and please stay there. I have no desire of discussing with a person that thinks he is a cousin of an ape and his ancestors are animals as stated in another topic lol

    و لقد كرمنا بني آدم

    الحمد لله على كل حال

    but I will state this fact : you openly acknowledged of having a grudge against him and that’s why you are no longer credible.. he saved your ancestors from the darkness they were in and this is how you repay him, what a SHAME.

    للأسف إنك تقول إنك من شقراء ، يا ليتك قعدت على حالك جداوي نمشيك كبقايا حجاج

  191. @Yasser, “Do you really have to twist up things in order to make a case against it? I never said Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab followed a different religion”

    We were talking about the minorities which include you “The Apes’ Cousin” and the Shia who say Ibn Abdul wahhab has his own religion.

    get your head checked out

  192. Ehm Yasser, we don’t descend from Neanderthals, Neanderthals are a either sub species within the genus ”homo sapiens” or a seperate species of the genus ”homo”. There may have been some gene flow from Neanderthals into modern humans according to some recent research into Neanderthal genes. If any interbreeding took place this would have happened when homo sapiens left Africa, as they cannot find traces in African people, any mixing of genes would have occurred in the Middle East.
    My personal ”theory” is that the Neanderthals are not quite extinct.
    See my article:
    http://clouddragon.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/evolution/

    What a horrible story about your village. 😦
    I hope you got a laugh out of my article.

  193. @Mohammed,

    You are just an average ignoramus who has very little to offer in the form of knowledge and/or critical thinking. They all act like you, they act like you and remind me of a lifeless rock floating in space. All your arguments are hollow and do not stand the pressure of scrutiny. Similar to the rock in space which crashes and burns as soon as it encounters the resistance of the earth atmosphere, you are now crashing and burning by resorting to sectarian and regional prejudices (as shown in your Arabic writing to Yasser).

    The gig is up my friend you have shown yourself to be void of any intellectual debating capabilities.

  194. @ Aafke-Art,
    Both Homo S.Sapiens and Neanderthals (short for Homo Neanderthalensis) are of the genus Homo. but as a species we are descendants of the latter. As a species, there are were probably other speciations that occurred filling the gap, but Neanderthals were the first hominins. But hominids before Neanderthals were of a different genus which is Australopithecus, the last of which was Australopithecus Afarensis. Luckily I paid attention in my anthropology classes. Well, besides being a nerd lol
    Shaqra wasn’t the only village raided under Ibn Abdulwahhabs blessings, in fact, generous government “handouts” today in the form of copious amounts of money to the tribal leaders are merely attempts to reconcile and make up for bad times.
    I’ll take a look at your article thanks!

  195. @MoQ, what I have written to him was my expression of anger it his stupid lies in which he had shamed his ancestors by, I too have many relatives from Shaqra, such as Al Shuraim Family from which the Holy Mosques’ Imam is related to, Al Abdul Wahhab Family, and Al Jumaih Family “in short” . and I heard the truth by people who lived there at the time. and they say that they are forever grateful to Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab and his actions.

    I would take the the word of many relatives everyday over some words made by an unknown grudgeful blogger whom is probably spreading his lies from outside of this country and pleasuring himself with our wealth and “hand-outs”.

    he is a shameful black dot in that region and is renounced by its people, that is why he is opening his …….. in the internet thinking nobody can get to him.

    ……. that bite the hand that feeds them should be ………

    Comment edited.
    Personal attacks and insults are not allowed on this blog. Threats are not allowed on this blog.
    Behave yourself with decency or you will be put in moderation.
    Moderator

  196. Mohammed:

    Apparently you are having a hormonal surge. It might be best to have someone who is not so emotional speak on your behalf as clearly your hormones are affecting your reasoning and cognitive skills.

  197. Mohammad, while I do share the same thoughts about Yaseer I dont agree that he should be put to sleep. I am aware that for someone who is ready to give up his parents and families for someone he knew for few years and call it love, I am not too surprised at his readiness to shun Islam and make up stories about it. This is not something you should be upset about. There are many others like him who abandon their families for fame and popularity such as Ayan Hirsi and Ali Sina. You shouldnt stoop so low to call for his demise as this would put you in the same extremist views as Ayan Hirsi and Sina (they call for the destruction of Islam, not radical Islam but Islam altogether).

  198. Yaseer, care to give evidence on your charges against Ibn Wahhab and his rape escapades as that is a grave accussation you are making.

  199. I’d like to make it clear that while I love Islam very much, I dont necassary agree with many Saudi laws. I like to wear abaya even colourful ones but dont agree that it should be enforced on others. And why just black? I dont see how is it Islamic, nothing in Islam says colours are forbidden. And women driving, I like driving..sometimes only…but why is it wrong for a woman to drive? When my husband was at work and I was pregnant, I didnt bother him to take me to the clinic for my check ups. If he could, he would accompany me of course but it is not doable to constantly have to postpone everything just because you cannot drive.

  200. MrsB, Now considering that history is written by the victor, it’s as if you’re asking me for evidence that the white man slaughtered the red Indians. Well,. other than what is passed on and considered common knowledge among our tribes, Some Muslim historians, however managed to refer to some of these atrocities in their books; such as Muhammad Alawi al-Saqqaf, in his book Misbah al-Anam. Others like Ahmad Zainy Dahlan, as well as Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab’s brother, Sulaiman, in his book to the people of Uyainah, which could not survive in its original form, but was redacted by Ibn Bishr. This of course is in addition to the destruction of Khadija’s house and many other artifacts pertaining to Islamic heritage which were preserved in Makkah till his time. All under the alibi of “shirk” of course.
    I have no interest in accusing anyone of anything. I have rested my case with sectarianism a long time ago. I only look at things objectively and try to give credit where it’s due.

  201. Dear readers of Bedu, Carol is not well and will be spending a few days in hospital.
    Please be polite but continue meaningful discussions while she is away.
    I see we have a number of new contributors, you are very welcome.
    In times of sickness Carol has a couple of moderators who look after the blog for her.
    This blog uses a set of blog rules, if you want to read them they are posted here:
    http://americanbedu.com/2012/07/08/the-yearly-reminder-of-american-bedu-blog-rules/
    Moderator

  202. Get well soon, Carol. My prayers are with you. Hope you are up and about very soon. In sha allah.

  203. Mohammed makes a good point, Why blame this Wahhab dude? He was a good Muslim, he followed the true sunnah of the prophet, Raiding villages who don’t tow the line, killing the men and raping the women. It’s what the prophet used to do right?
    And the example of the prophet cannot be wrong.

  204. Mohammad, I don’t mean to insult you, your relatives or your country. This is not personal at all. It just states that their are flaws to the judicial system here(I live in Saudi as well). I also know that the laws is applied differently depending on one’s social class, Watsa, passport etc.

  205. Best wishes to you dear Carol. Hope you’re up & about soon!

  206. Wish you a quick recovery, Carol.

  207. @Rahma,

    I have stated this earlier many times, nobody is safe from error, be it they are Saudi or American or from anywhere.. but don’t judge the entire Saudi Justice system as flawed, when you say Saudi Law is completely unjust then you are saying that their decisions “which are completely based on Sharia” are flawed, hence Sharia law is flawed according to your statement.

    people who call themselves Muslim but are against the ruling of Sharia Law and require “Positive Law” to be the Justice system in the Country are mentioned in the Qur’an.. “and this is not directed at you personally, but only to clear the matter”..

    ( And when it is said to them, “Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger,” you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.) 4:61

    as for the true Muslims, we are supposed to worship Allah and follow his commands which include judging with Sharia Law completely and enforcing “The Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice” to be among the winners in the after-life. As of now there are only three Countries in the world enforcing Sharia Law as the sole Justice System. lets wish Allah guides the other Islamic Countries to the right path and leave the “Positive Law” because there is no good in them.

    Allah ‘swt’ knows there are people abusing their positions in secret, Allah ‘swt’ shall judge them as to his wish.

    (He is the One that accepts repentance from His Servants and forgives sins: and He knows all that ye do.) 42:25.

    I don’t know if you can read Arabic fluently, but if you do please fully read this article titled (Judges…on the verge of hell)

    http://www.saaid.net/Doat/yahia/62.htm
    __

    @Aafke,

    Stop being a Troll, either provide credible factual statements to the discussion or leave.
    __

    @carol,

    I hope you get well soon.

  208. Oh oh Muhammad you asked for it. Now the ‘facts’ against our beloved Prophet will come in droves…be prepared for hadeeths that you’ve heard before and sirahs you’ve never imagine could be devised…courtesy of our excellent intellects out there 😉

  209. Mohammed with his behavior, exhibited some of the major problems with Saudi Arabia such as: the results of a weak education system, religious/sectarian prejudice, anger when not getting their way, grown males that still behave less than men, extreme male chauvinism, tribalism, regional prejudices, etc.

    It is amazing in just a matter of 2 days with people just simply not agreeing with his bad comments, he got angry and exposed all of these things so quickly. And some how he thinks women are more emotional and cannot control themselves!!!!

    mrsB, I read your comments here a lot including the couple of shots that you took at me . I really just ignored it, because I viewed you as a naive convert who wants to believe her religion, so I let go. However in your last comment where you say you agree with Mohammed even after he exhibited such hate, I am beginning to change my mind. If you agree with all that hate he exhibited, then you are no longer just a naive innocent convert, you just joined a very insane and evil club. Shame in you if that is the case…

  210. @mohammed — “For example when he sees an abusive father then he will clearly choose the mother for custody based on his interpretation of the Law in this particular case,and he couldn’t say OK the children will go live with their teachers ! same goes for the other way around”

    Again wrong. this is how it should be per islam, but not. we have personal examples in our family where children where given to fathers who abused … wives were not given divorce even after a battering ot two 🙂 oh yes miraculously that changed when money changed hands. how convienient, is that how sharia is supposed to work.

    and no I’m not a muslim but i respect and recognize islam, I’m married to a muslim and seem to happily co-exist with him for over 2 decades. the only reason i still think islam is beautiful ( like any other religion) is beacause i see my husband practise it in all its beauty. usually most muslims and their judgement and blind defense of saudi and it’s bad laws ( nothing to do with islam) put me off the whole thing.

    ye severy country has corruption but finally all i say is when saudi says it is the upholder of islamic values, the utopia of islam and all that’s holy i would expect it to live up to it atleast a little bit. mixing tribal customs and corruption and subjugation of women and calling it islam does a great disservice to islam itself.. and i don’t have to be a muslim to see this.

    Sorry, your comment was in Spam
    Moderator

  211. @Rahma also when I stated Saudi law bases its decision completely on Sharia I meant that they try follow to the extent of what Allah commanded them..

    in the matter of man slaughter for example, Allah ‘swt’ says:

    (O you who believe! Al-Qisas “the Law of Equality in punishment” is prescribed for you in case of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if the killer is forgiven by the brother “or the relatives, etc.” of the killed against blood money, then adhering to it with fairness and payment of the blood money, to the heir should be made in fairness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. So after this whoever transgresses the limits “i.e. kills the killer after taking the blood money”, he shall have a painful torment.)2:179.

    that is why if a person killed someone, Saudi Law mandates that if he is not pardoned by the family of the deceased then that person should be killed as well.

    they don’t make up rules like: he gets a few years of mandatory jail time with no regards to the family of the deceased.. as per the US Justice System.

    That is why the Saudi Justice System is somewhat unique.

  212. Just a friendly advice Muhammad, be prepared to hear the worst about our prophet from people here and don’t be so fast to get angry. Remember, even while he was alive our Prophet was called and accursed of many horrible things, he was called a sorcerer, a maniac etc and was even pelted with stones in Taif but he was always patient and didn’t seek revenge.

  213. @MoQ, in regards to my behavior I might have made some errors and I do not deny that, in the end I am only human.

    in regards to your perception of Mrs.B, it seams you never read her comments fully, she only shares some of my views and that is her complete right, I don’t force people to share my personal opinion but I am against the falsifying of Facts.

    when I said for example :

    “we are supposed to worship Allah and follow his commands which include judging with Sharia Law completely and enforcing “The Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice” to be among the winners in the after-life”

    she shares this view because she believes in it as like every other Muslim who worships Allah.

  214. Bigstick, *Mohammed:
    Apparently you are having a hormonal surge. It might be best to have someone who is not so emotional speak on your behalf as clearly your hormones are affecting your reasoning and cognitive skills.
    *
    Nice…
    Maybe he is having that time of the month…..

    MrsB, why so upset? There’s nothing obscure, Mohammed raided villages, killed the men and raped the women. I think the problem lies in yourself, Such actions are against your moral feelings, but because the prophet did them they must be ok, but they are really not. So somehow the prophet didn’t do them even if your own holy books are full of it.
    I understand this must be a difficult dilemma for you. However, in your last comments you proved that you are capable of supporting wickedness and evil.
    Maybe this stems from your heart, maybe from the corruption of your morals by religion. Whatever. You have sunk in my opinion.

    I’m not giving the many verses and hadith, the biography of Mohammed, they are too well known and I am not in the mood today to be teaching Muslims their religion.

    Moq, the truth hurts, reality hurts, facts hurt. And not being able to counter the arguments put to him must also hurt a lot…
    Like you said, *grown males that still behave less than men*

  215. Moq, how silly of you. I am a born Muslim, raised in the West for many years then brought back to the East by two professors. No I don’t agree with Muhammads hate, I merely said I share his observation that Yaseer is indeed trying to score points with the Islamophobes but Yaseer still seems fair in his thinking to me. Why do you like to continue acting arrogant and condescending (calling someone naive because they disagree with you).??

  216. @Mrs.B, I really appreciate your kind words, you seem to be a very intellectual lady.

    may Allah guides all of us to the right path.

    thank you very much.

  217. Moq, care to explain where did I support any hate? You’re right on one thing though, i love my religion.

  218. Mrs B Remember when poets did nothing worse than writing poems against him he had the assassinated in the most cowardly way.
    You could call it Mohammed’s ”Dead Poets Society”.

    Remember the old lady, a tribal leader, he had torn apart by camels because she spoke against him.

    I think Moq thought you were a ”revert” because it’s usually the newly ”reverted” and imbibed with wahhabi and salafi teachings who are the most extreme in obsessive behavior and hatred.

  219. @Aafke,

    I don’t think that by saying ‘remember when’ indicated an actual credible fact.

  220. Aafke it really doesn’t matter where I am in regards to your opinion since you chose to believe Moq’s accusation (that I support hate which I didn’t if anyone cared to understand my comment) instead of taking my past comments into consideration. Just to clarify, I never agreed on any hate. Proof me other wise or perhaps some apologies are in order. And no, trust me, your version of our Prophet is alien to me and other Muslims.

  221. Nice Aafke, now you call me an obsessive extremist full of hatred. I am still wondering where you got that from…Muhammads, as Muslims we are supposed to avoid hatred and if we want to speak, we speak justly with wisdom and not be harsh.

  222. Well, what is your opinion of Yasser then. Precisely.
    So I can base my opinion on proper facts, and apologize to you if I was wrong.

  223. @mrsB, you are completely correct.

  224. To be honestd at the beginning my thoughts of Yaseer was rather unfair and I apologize to you Yaseer for I assumed you to be an apologists for the Islamophobes merely to gain points with them but after a lengthy comment on the Debate page, I stand corrected. However, Aafke I have never said anything about supporting hate towards him. Is Tarq up for my vigilante duty?

  225. @mrsB,

    Your timing was terrible. You supported him without clarification right after he wrote a very hateful message filled with prejudices. It is good that you cleared the air, although you are not standing up against the hate speech you are hearing from Mohammed.

    By the way this is one of the reasons why even peaceful Muslims do not come across as credible. It is exactly because they never stand up to the radicals among them. They only cry foul when Muslims are judged based on the actions of those terrible representatives of Muslims.

    Regarding being Naive, I do believe you are. It is my opinion from the countless posts you have made on Bedu. It is no different than you calling me arrogant or deceiver, etc. I did not respond to you for a long time about these accusations you made about me. Since you continue doing it, I cannot promise to show such restraint in the future.

  226. @Mohammed,

    “in regards to my behavior I might have made some errors and I do not deny that, in the end I am only human.”

    Calling yourself just human who may make errors is ok. However, you run out of excuses when you double down on the same bad arguments and prejudices. You have continued with your prejudiced comments even when they are pointed out to you. The simple fact is you have no exhibited the trait of learning from your mistakes even though you claim you do!!!

    I hope you do change and start discussing topics objectively.

  227. Mrs.B It’s all good. We’re all here to discuss and exchange ideas. I don’t take anyone’s side over the other for personal reasons. I look at the arguments presented, and either commend it or criticize them, regardless to who says them. I love the fact that we’re different in our cultures and our beliefs. I often opened intellectual discussion with people on the bus while coming back from school in the US, and you would be surprised how many people would join in and throw their bits. To me, differences are what makes life more interesting. Symmetry is boring. Even in quantum physics, it was asymmetry in nature that created the first hydrogen atom, and later on the early blue stars. I happen to appreciate educated people who aren’t afraid of challenging their own minds and voicing out their opinions. And I think Aafke is one of those once he stopped using his harsh language and resorted to reason instead 🙂

  228. Look dude, I am always rational and always use reason.
    Always have been. The fact that from time to time I lay down the blunt ax and go for the rapier instead makes no difference as far as my rationality is concerned.

    Mrs B, I had an Arab friend translate Mohammed’s stuff, not good stuff, it was ethnic prejudice. And he did put up some very nasty stuff before he was moderated. You wrote ”I agree with you”. You cannot agree with him, he is too evil.
    Until you disavow the evil stuff Mohammed has written I cannot apologize, although I would like to.
    This doesn’t mean you cannot borrow the Tarq for a good cause.

  229. The fact of the matter is: I stooped to a very low level of behavior during a moment of anger while speaking to a person who linked untrue lies to a great scholar. and It should not affect how you perceive Islam, my behavior can never be a match to it. this is an isolated incident and i take full responsibility to my words.

    I do apologize for my outburst and I hope Yasser would do the same in the matter of accusing Ibn Abdul Wahhab of rape/murder based on his and I quote “ancestors grudge”.

    and I hope in the future when he references something that he should not add his own twisted tale in between the lines as I have proven him in the previously posted video link, the person he referenced spoke not a single word from the quotes he has written.

    now in regards to the Darwin Theory or The Big Bang Theory or any theory regarding the creation of Heavens, Earth and Man.. anybody claiming there is truth to them or believes in them should read this:

    (I did not make them witness to the creation of the heavens and the earth or to the creation of themselves, and I would not have taken the misguiders as assistants.) [18:51]

    (And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference.) [17:70]

    (Certainly We created man in the best make.) [95:4]

    by supporting the ‘Darwin’ theory or ‘people evolved from animals’ theory you are stating that you have the same information as the creator of All things and giving statements which are different to which Allah the All knowing creator said in the Qur’an. It is the same as claiming to know when is the occurrence of judgement day.

    all of which are from Prescience which only Allah knows.

    (The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any,[26] Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,) [72:26-27]

    People Claiming so are called per Islam’s teachings “soothsayers” and their believes are considered Shirk.
    __

    If you believe in those theories Yasser then I should remind you that this type of Shirk expels one from Millah (Islam, belief.. etc).

    my advice to you is to return to Islam’s teachings and ask for Allah’s forgiveness.

    “I saw your comment in the debate page and stating that you are a Muslim is the reasoning behind my advice”.

  230. Mohammed, I am glad you realized you had a moment of mental instability and were in a highly emotional mood. That this mental instability made you say and do things you now regret. And that you are sorry for the bad things you said while being unstable and emotional.

    Now looking back at your bad behavior during this hormonal surge/emotional outbreak/mental instability, I take it you understand how unfair Islam is by giving men, who are by your admission, and example, susceptible to emotional instability, the right to arbitrarily divorce their wives, while the wives have to go through a court.

    I am sure you now understand that you and all Muslim men should also go through a court due to your bouts of emotional and mental instability.

  231. MoQ, on January 8, 2013 at 10:53 am said: By the way this is one of the reasons why even peaceful Muslims do not come across as credible. It is exactly because they never stand up to the radicals among them. They only cry foul when Muslims are judged based on the actions of those terrible representatives of Muslims.

    This is a very accurate statement of what’s gone wrong with the ummah. It was hilarious (and sad) to see fellow muslims agreeing with each others’ comments (even high-fiving each other) without first using their Allah-given brains to study/evaluate those radical/violent/extremist/threatening comments prior to their own responses.

    As a muslim, I am offended when many of my fellow muslims have their “belief system” engraved in their stony hearts and minds and set in stone i.e.

    My Allah Right or Wrong!
    My Prophet Right or Wrong!
    My Qur’an Right or Wrong!

    I am sorry to say this but ummah is in a free fall right now and has been for a long time ….

  232. @Aafke, Men do experience “surge/emotional outbreak/mental instability” and many if not all divorces are caused by it. let me give you the Islamic teachings regarding the matter and not my personal opinion, from the Men’s side of the matter:

    Divorce is enforced at any situation be it jokingly or admittedly unless the the divorce occurred when the Man’s mind was lost.. i.e “Insane” or “Intoxicated”.

    Divorce should not be taken lightly and should only occur when all of the solutions did not work.

    If a man divorced his wife then the divorce occurs immediately and if he should feel remorse then he can take her back as a wife again, he could only do so twice then he must hold her with reasonable terms or release her kindly.

    that is all i have for now, I need to sleep.

  233. @Aafke, “I am sure you now understand that you and all Muslim men should also go through a court due to your bouts of emotional and mental instability.”

    actually I still do and will always believe in the in our Laws because disagreeing with them would mean that I disagree with my religion, which I Don’t.

    but I do believe that people who cannot control their emotions should not get married as it is an even greater mistake, because children and people may get harmed along the way, that is why I’m still holding off marriage until I am old and wise enough.

  234. @Maram

    Let me correct a few things in your post of Jan 4th, 5.56 am

    “This reason is because the man when he first intends on getting married he has certain obligations to fulfill and materials he has to provide. He pays the woman a dowry which is a whole lot of money, when I say a whole lot I mean a whole lot. It may vary from 100,000 to 1,000,000 sr or more for all I know. He has to provide her with the house, furniture, clothes, all her needs must be met before marriage.”

    There is no requirement that any of this has to happen. I mean, he CAN, but he doesn’t have to. The dowry can be an iron ring if the woman agrees to it. There is in fact encouragement in the sunnah to keep the dowry to a modest amount. Whether the couple live separately or with their parents, furnished or unfurnished is entirely up to the couple. And while he may be required to provide his wife with separate accommodations, they are not typically gifted to her – after the divorce, it’s the woman who has to leave the marital home, not the husband. So let’s dispense with the whole “he has to provide her with the house.” He doesn’t. It’s his house in which she is allowed to reside. It’s not HER house. Your mahr can be $100,000.00 or it can be $500.00. There is no religious requirement that it should be a million dollars. So let’s dispense with the nonsense that it HAS to be high. It doesn’t.

    “So, a woman can demand divorce wether it’s with her husband’s approval or not. If he approves then they can divorce in a friendly manner and financial issues can be discussed in court. If he doesn’t want the divorce but the woman wants it then as I have mentioned she can go to judge who can divorce her and give her all her financial rights if he finds her reasons are strong for divorce. If not then she can try “khlu’” which will give the man all his money back because his approval isn’t needed.”

    This is incorrect because most scholars will tell you the husband’s permission is still required for khula. It is not at all an automatic process of “here’s your dowry, I’m out of here.”

    Secondly, it is not all that simple to get the judge to agree to grant divorce to the woman because there are no standards as to what constitutes bad treatment. It’s not uncommon for judges to send the woman home with the advice to be patient. Perhaps you are OK with someone you never met deciding whether you’ve been treating badly enough to warrant a divorce, or whether you need to be beaten up some more to qualify. I would prefer that this decision rests with me alone.

    @Sarah

    “After a announcing of divorce, Islam requires a three-month waiting period (called the iddah) before the divorce is finalized. During this time, the couple continues to live under the same roof, but sleeps apart. This gives the couple time to calm down, evaluate the relationship, and perhaps reconcile. Sometimes decisions are made in haste and anger, and later one or both parties may have regrets. During the waiting period, the husband and wife are free to resume their relationship at any time, thus ending the divorce process without the need for a new marriage contract.”:

    This is incorrect. The decision to reconcile is not made by the couple. It is made by the husband alone. The wife’s permission or approval for reconciliation is not required. If the husband decides to reconcile but the wife would rather not, it’s his prerogative. Don’t make it sound like it’s a joint decision. It isn’t.

    Finally, considering that Islamic laws have no concept of marital property, divorce laws in Islam are inherently unfair to home-maker women, especially older ones. The husband can easily, after 30 years of marriage, decide he doesn’t want to be married any more, and all he has to pay is three silly months of maintenance. The woman will have no claim to any joint assets (whereas in the U.S. she would end up with the share of their home, assets, finances, etc.)

  235. Mohammed, So you admit that the Islamic teachings on divorce are unfair and unreasonable.

  236. And Sarah, the iddah is only to see if the woman is pregnant, because that baby is the property of the husband.

  237. And mahr is not really dowry, it’s money the husband pays for sexual pleasure which the wife has to provide.

  238. @Aafke,

    I never said that, and I would never do so, because I believe Sharia Law is the the most Just legal system since the creation of Man.

    you are not obligated to share my views nor am I obligated to share yours.

  239. mohammed, you are a hypocrite, you admitted, you even demonstrated that men are as susceptible to ”emotional instability” as women. This ”emotional instability, which you claimed only exists in women, and then demonstrated exists in men as well, is the reason for this grossly unfair set of rules, which prefer men over women for no good reason.

    Islam is unfair in it’s rules for divorce.

  240. @Aafke,

    I don’t claim women to be the only gender susceptible to ”emotional instability” but I do differentiate theirs from that of a Man.

    for example when you go to an emotionally stimulating movie you would see that most women and only few men suffer from hyped emotions after it has finished.

    A Man has to be strong physically and emotionally to be able to defend his family.

  241. Mohammed, just admit it, you are pwned, and so is your religion.

  242. @Aafke, Trolling will not get you far in life.

    accept that others have beliefs different from yours,

    and accept that while you may feel their beliefs are wrong, they feel the same about yours.

    (To you is your religion, and to me is my religion! ) [114:6]

  243. You were pwned

  244. Double posting.
    Moderator

  245. Yaseer I don’t make it a habit to read long ass comments by anyone, I skip them except the one that I asked you. As for being naive, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it but better be a naive a willing to learn than arrogant as that is where the willingness to learn stops. Though I don’t think Im naive, young but has some magic up my sleeves.

  246. Aafke I have made it clear that I don’t support anyone’s hate and I have also made it clear that I do not read ridiculously long winding comments so I was wrongly accused. As for Muhammad, he has apologized and was big enough to admit his mistake. And while we at it, you should realized that you have been spouting hate and your counterparts have been supporting these hate all over the blog. He who points one finger to another points 4 fingers back at himself.

  247. From Mohammed’s comment:

    “If you believe in those theories (…evoloution, big bang, etc.) Yasser then I should remind you that this type of Shirk expels one from Millah (Islam, belief.. etc).”

    This Takfiri ideology is exactly why places like Saudi Arabia will continue to be third world countries for a long time. Rejection of science will keep the people of the region engulfed in superstitions instead of progressing.

    What is interesting is when one of these people encounters a major health problem they will never think twice about rejecting medical technologies which has been developed based on scientific research resulting from evolution principals.

    @Mohammed, Just like I suspected you did apologize for your earlier comment, but you followed that a takfiri comment aimed at Yasser. Do you really think anyone is buying that you improved your behavior. I think you need to reevaluate how you view the world, it seems that this aggressive attitude and hate is deeper than just the anger you showed for a minute of weakness.

  248. @Moq, when a person enters Islam he testifies to Allah’s monotheism,

    if a person believed in those theories prior to entering Islam then he must shun them as it is polytheism and cannot continue to believe in them after entering Islam, Allah ‘swt’ says that if you do this then you are “among the loosers” not me

    as for the “Takfiri ideology” neither I nor any other Muslim can say about another Muslim man that he is a “Kafir” but I can give him advices or say that he made a mistake. and it seems that you did not notice the magic word in the beginning ” IF you do ” as I did not claim that he certainly believes in them.

  249. Islam is not against science as it supports it greatly, but Islam is against people claiming prescience, that is all. Now I will quote the words of a fellow Muslim regarding the matter which I share the same views as his.

    “Islam is not in reality facing science. Islam religion and science, from the early beginning of Islam religion, were always in support to each other. No scientific discovery contradicts any Qur’an saying. Islam support to science is very clear in the demonstrated Islamic civilization and Islam contributions to science and technology before the western civilization. Within few years of the spread of Islam, great civilizations and universities were flourishing. In few years after start of Islam, great advances achieved, by Muslims, in medicine, mathematics, physics, astronomy, geography, architecture, art, literature, and history. Many crucial systems, such as algebra, the Arabic numerals, and the concept of zero (vital to the advancement of mathematics), were transmitted to medieval Europe from the Muslim world. Sophisticated instruments which were to make possible the European voyages of discovery, such as the astrolabe, the quadrant, and good navigational maps, were also developed by Muslims.

    On the other hand, Islam strongly encouraged scientists and science research and considered that the more science is progressed the better people will know God. That is why scientists and more knowledgeable people are more rewarded by God.”

  250. Hmmmm, let me give you a summary of what your comment sounds like:

    “Science does not contradict Islam, that is until it contradicts it”

    even simple logic seems to be a problem for you.

    You are rejecting 2 of the most important scientific theories not based on their scientific merit, as i highly doubt you even understand them, but just because they threaten your believe in a myth.

    You cannot have this both ways, saying Islam is compatible with science then rejecting cornerstone theories in the fields of biology and physics.

  251. @MrsB,
    First my name reads Yasser, not Yaseer. lol
    Secondly, to the best of my knowledge I never called you naive. However,If I did in the past, then please accept my apology. The only one here I find unworthy of replying to is Mohammed due to his inability to remain objective.

  252. Ah yes Yasser , sorry my bad. Although you did call me Mr B once instead of Mrs lol. I realized another fellow muslimah has taken a jab at me without having the guts to actually be clear about it. Well I hope I have made amends Yasser and spelt your name correctly lol.

  253. Yasser it wasn’t you who called me naive it was Moq, sorry. Both of you have dark coloured avatar hence the confusion plus I don’t always focus since one eye is on my toddler.

  254. I didn’t know I looked so much like Shikamaru lol, but it’s all good 🙂

  255. @MoQ

    “You are rejecting 2 of the most important scientific theories”

    I am rejecting the claiming of prescience, those theories are based on one man’s thoughts, its like me saying that juice evolved from oil because they share the liquid state.

    their theories state that Humans evolved from animals or were not created in a complete form because they share similarities either from the inside or the outside of the body.

    Also, why claim the knowledge of how the earth was created, or how old it is or anything regarding its creation when you don’t even have the power to change anything about it, gain anything by it, and the ability to make medicine from it.

    If you can prove that there are medicines which were only made possible after the inclusion of the big bang theory to its process then I will support you, but that will never happen.

    this is a silly statement to base your argument on.
    ____

    @Yasser, I do not require you to reply, I made a clarification on the argued upon subject and I gave a friendly Muslim advice, there is no reply needed or required and the argument is finished “from my side to say the least “.

  256. I wish from the beginning you were calm and argued with reasons like you are now Muhammad. As a sister in Islam, I advice you and myself to avoid insults and hate. Leave that to them for as you can see they spout a lot of insults and even prejudice towards Islam (barbaric, backward, pedophile advocater and many more) but answer back with facts and calmness. Islam means peace..Good intentions plus bad remedy equals disastrous effects.

  257. @Mohammed,

    “Also, why claim the knowledge of how the earth was created, or how old it is or anything regarding its creation when you don’t even have the power to change anything about it, gain anything by it, and the ability to make medicine from it.”

    Wrong on all accounts:

    1) We know what processes crated the earth
    2) We know how old the earth with reasonable accuracy
    3) We do not have to necessarily gain anything from acquiring knowledge. Just satisfying our curiosity is good enough. However, knowing how the earth is created does provide insights on many areas of research which in turn provide benefits. Examples: Earth quake research, Climatology, Volcano research, Space exploration, etc.

    “If you can prove that there are medicines which were only made possible after the inclusion of the big bang theory to its process then I will support you, but that will never happen.”

    My comment about medicine being supported by one of the theories was referring to Evolution. Any person with basic grade level education would have understood that, so I did not feel like I had to specifically say it. I was wrong of course, you are an exception.

    Mohammed, really anyone who reads your comment will get the idea that you do not understand basic science and you do not even care about learning these things. However, you want us to believe that you do since your religion asks you to. I suggest you should at least try to understand the basics. Think of how many hasanat you will gain from that process.

    Cheers!!!

  258. […] Saudi Arabia continues to need mandatory changes on its allowance of controversial marriages and divorce laws. […]

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