Saudi Arabia, The father gets no punishment


In the news is the story of a 5-year old girl Lama. Lama has an Egyptian mother and Saudi father, Sheikh Fayhan Al Ghamdi, they are divorced, after which her father took the girl away from her mother. According to his testimony he was worried about the girls virginity, and took her to a medical examiner to have it checked. Although you can’t really check for ”virginity”.


Fayhan Al Ghamdi started to torture and rape his 5-year old daughter. After 10 months in intensive care she died. The mother was not allowed to see her, she only got to see her daughter in the intensive care.

Lama was beaten with electrical cables, sharp objects, blunt objects, whips. She was electrocuted, she was ”raped everywhere”, her anal canal was torn open and Al Ghamdi tried to cauterise it with a burning iron. She had fingernails torn out and the side of her head was smashed in. According to a nurse her back was broken. Lama’s arms were broken and her skull fractured.

The mother met the divorced father in the hospital and asked him why he tortured her, he answered only with a ”chuckle”.


The father, Shaikh Fayhan Al Ghamdi, is a well known Islamic preacher, who gives sermons on tv stations. He will not get the death penalty (the penalty for murder in Saudi Arabia) the court has decided he only has to pay blood money to the family, which means himself, 4 months in jail, and all other charges and punishments are dropped.
Blood money for a girl is only half of the blood money for a boy.
This decision is based on a hadith, which according to other bloggers is not in the main hadith collections, which claims that a father cannot be executed for murdering his child.


Many Saudi bloggers are enraged about this crime and the verdict. Lama’s mother wants to fight for justice for her dead daughter, but has no money.

Three Saudi activists, including Manal al-Sharif, who in 2011 challenged Saudi laws that prevent women from driving, have raised objections to the ruling.
The activists said that the judge had ruled the prosecution could only seek “blood money and the time the defendant had served in prison since Lama’s death suffices as punishment”. The ruling is based on national laws that a father cannot be executed for murdering his children, nor can husbands be executed for murdering their wives, activists said.





read more:

Yahoo news

Al Arabiya News

Daily mail

Blue Abaya

Saudi woman

Al Watan (Arabic)

BBC middle east

Huffington post


155 Responses

  1. If this is true this guy deserves to be beheaded according to his own country’s laws.

    But, since he is under its protection who will protect him ‘some’ day from his maker?

    It is absolutely atrocious.

    This is what is publicized, how many poor little kids are out there molested by some peadophile shake?

  2. Bloody Hell!

    It says a father cannot be executed for murdering his child, yet the Arabs used to do this in the days before Islam!

    So this means in Saudi Arabia it is now perfectly alright to go against the teachings of Islam because they know better!

    No wonder everyone thinks Musliks are backwards when the example of Muslims are always some crazy child molesting sob from the Asian/Arab world!

  3. Frustrating ! I’m shock !!!! awful, terrible , horrible story

  4. I didn’t know her mom was Egyptian, that must have played a factor in the lenient punishment received by this pedophile, according Saudi murder laws, the murder of Saudi man is considered more heinous the murder of a women, and with this unfortunate child having Egyptian parentage makes her less of a human with the Saudi Law. .

    Along with the fact that this pedophile has a beard and that gets him brownie points with the judge. In Saudi Arabia guys with big long unkempt beard are considered as the most holiest and pious, often these big beardo dudes are viewed positively in the society.

    Aside from the fact that in Islam Parents are held in high regard, due to this fact the Muslim priests and other Muslims often condone or overlook child abuses at the hands of the parents.

    The problem here lies with the attitude of Muslims of “parents can’t err”, the disregard of women as un-equal to men and the racist Arab Nationalism with Saudis thinking they are better than other nationals.

  5. Too vile for words, both the creepy bastard and his buddies who will not punish him.

  6. It is a terrible crime committed by this person. May Lama rest in peace. To all of the people leaving such terrible comments against islam or Saudis, all I can say is that unfortunately injustices are commited all over the world by people of different ethnicity and religions. As for what the news has published about a father not being executed for the murder of a wife and child in Islam…IT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE!! I am currently residing in Saudi Arabia and Saudis are enraged about Lama’s death and injustice commited in her defense. There has also been strong dialogue in the community about who started the lie about a father not being held for murder of a family member. Ahmed, I am sure this news has enraged you as it has enraged many, including my Saudi family! It saddens me to see such terrible remarks against Islam and Saudis. I ask all of you to see how many injustices and atrocities being commited by in your country and people sharing the same religion as you, I am sure you would not like someone to judge you for their terrible actions. Lets work together and pray that this horrible man gets the punishment he deserves!!

    PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL BEINGS..Christians, jews,muslims, and so on!!

  7. Ahmed and Norma: According to ”Saudi woman” :
    *a member of the National Society for Human Rights, in all of her career she knows of only one case in which a father was severely punished for torturing and killing his daughter. She says that this leniency is also extended to those who murder their wives. She gives two examples of similar cases. One in which a husband cut his wife’s throat as she was breastfeeding their child and he only got five years for it. Another is the case of a husband who tied his wife to his car and dragged her until she died.*
    So it seems to be the common practice in Saudi Arabia, not to punish men to harshly who kill their property.

  8. This is such a sad incident. While a child can be killed in the West, the unique aspects of this case are related to how Saudi implement their idea of sharia law. In the first instance the father was given total custody of the child. This is something that would be rare in the West without some kind of extenuating circumstance, such as the mother being in another relationship. Mother’s rights are an afterthought in Saudi Arabia, apparently the rights of minor children are also an afterthought. In most Western countries once this girl was seen by a doctor some investigation would have been made of the custodial parent. Again this is an artifact of how Saudis implement sharia law.

    Given the amount of money the Saudi government spends in trying to spread Islam around the world, they need to realize that others do regard them as an example of how Islam works. Saudi Arabia produces lots of Islamic books in English (I have a Koran published in Saudi Arabia). If I can accept some old reports in places like US News and World Report, Saudi Arabia has spent billions to construct mosques in the rest of the world. So, it is natural to assume that was goes on in Saudi Arabia is an example of what Islam does in the real world as opposed to some ideal example.

    Believe me Islam isn’t unique in having problems. The Catholic church has an immense problem with pedophilia, the doesn’t make Catholics evil, but it is a problem that no amount of talk can wish away.

  9. Norma, there haven’t been terrible comments against Saudi and Islam on this threat.
    But they will come.
    Let’s put this in bullit points:
    * A well known Saudi Islamic cleric rapes tortures and kills his five-year old daughter in the most disgusting ways.
    * His religious buddies let him get off with hardly any punishments
    * The religious Islamic judge rules that according to Islam he cannot be punished severely
    *According to a spokesperson of the Saudi National Society for human rights this is the usual way these cases are handled.

    I am sorry Norma, but it is fact that Saudi Arabia and Islam don’t come out well here. If you have a problem with these crimes and lack of punishments, if you have a problem with other people reading about these facts and then having some criticisms on Saudi Arabia and Islam you should not be wasting your time here, you should be out there, changing the laws in Saudi Arabia, and changing your religion.
    Because if you don’t this will happen again. And you will have to stomach the worlds criticism of your country and religion, because they deserve it.

  10. You are right Aaflke, like I said injustices happen all over the world, including in Saudi! There are few cases who unfortunately get passed the system. There are also cases which prevail..Saudi man Majed Abdul Rahman Saleh..executed for strangling wife. Saudi man Bandar Al-Louhaib executed for killing his grand mother.
    Few cases that justice did not prevail in the US and Sydney
    Juan Gonzales served one year in jail for killing wife.
    Eric Chyung out on bail after brutally killing wife.
    Bob Ward released from jail after killing wife.
    Sydney- Andrew Kalajzich realesed from jail after killing wife.
    Like I said before…it unfortunately happens everywhere. As for you saying it is common practice in KSA…then God help all the women in this country, including my girls and I.

  11. Norma, the cases and examples you mentioned are true. But those that you mentioned got off free or were sentenced less because their Defense teams were able to argue the case well and got off legally. But had these people you mentioned had their guilt proven beyond doubt they would have been in prison.

    But in case of this Saudi Pedophile, he was found guilty beyond doubt, their is evidence stacked against him, but the Saudi Judge using the Shariah law as his basis has given this pedophile this lightest of the lightest possible sentence.

    What makes it worse is that the way Saudi functions as an anathema to this post modern world.

  12. …mother being in another abusive relationship

  13. Ahmed, yes the judge was wrong, if you click on the right side of this page to “saudi mom appeals sentence in rape case”, it can hopefully shed some light on this topic, and give us hope as mothers that he will pay for hi actions.

  14. He has more children….

  15. Of course there will be good people and criminals in Saudi Arbia same as everywhere else. The argument here is not what other people in other places do.
    The real problem here is that in Saudi Arabia it’s the law which does not punish and take out of society real evil dangerous criminals. A man who can torture and rape his own five-year old daughter should not be let loose on society, his other children and other women.

    The problem is that in Saudi Arabia and in Sharia law the children and women are not protected.

  16. What I will never understand is how muslims can riot and kill over cartoons and various perceived insults…but things like this doesn’t seem to get them riled up enough to do either. Not that I condone rioting or wanton murder but it just seems like the worst sort of irony that the murder of a child gets no calls for riots or revenge while the drawing of a cartoon or the naming of a teddy bear sets off carnage on a grand scale. THAT is the Islam and THOSE are the muslims the world judges it by.

  17. Coolred, on February 4, 2013 at 5:22 pm said: “THAT is the Islam and THOSE are the muslims the world judges it by”.

    That’s a beautiful and factual statement by Coolred and then some!
    Perception is reality and sadly Islam is what muslims do.

  18. This story makes me incredibly angry at that stupid excuse for a father.

  19. Absolutely disgusting! Too difficult to take your mind there. The horror for the poor little child. What do the expat wives living in Saudi do about it. Maybe they could help the Egyptian mother by speaking their mind. and/or money. They won’t. can’t and probably not allowed to. It always amazes me that the good muslims let these horrible things take their course and do nothing or ssy nothing as a general rule. Next time this creep is on TV throw your shoes at him at least.

  20. There is no word to express the anger and sadness I feel at this poor angel’s fate. So angry at the barbaric Saudi law system! May Allah grant you Jannah ya helwa Lama.

  21. Jdh, i ll throw a lot more than shoes at the bastard!

  22. I believe this case needs to go to court again and the previous vertidict challenged. It is sickening what happened!
    From the moment this MONSTER of a man did this, he no longer qualifies as a guardian in the first place.
    He should go to trial like any other common criminal! and that should happen to all parents that would do this to children.
    Will he continue living normal?! supervising children?! and even go on TV to preach?! Who will accept that?! The society will abort him!!

  23. His daughter could have made a huge difference in this world, but no one will ever know because she wasn’t given the chance to live. I hope that one day, the father will receive the worst punishment of all- insight and understanding into how vile his actions are, what kind of trashy human he is, and who his daughter was meant to be in the world. Living for an eternity with this knowledge would have been the worst kind of punishment I could think of from a psychological standpoint. From a physical AND psychological standpoint, why not force him to have a sex change operation?

    I think the blood money thing has less to do with Islam and more to do with tribal tradition.

  24. Recently in New Delhi, India, 5 Men brutally gang raped and battered a woman leading to her death. And there were huge demonstrations and protests by the Indian People against the Law and Order system in India.
    People were outraged and the indian government was compelled to pass strict ordinances to punish rapists severly.

    But in Saudi I do not see the people outraged about this. The only thing that may outrage saudis is some cartoons, israel, etc.

    Saudi Society is the most coward and hypocritical.

  25. @gigi,
    There is no hope in the Saudi Shariah Court system. An appeal makes sense only if the laws are strong enough to condemn this heinous act.

    But with law like where a pedophile can abuse his daughter and kill his children, the law takes it in a lighter vein there is less hope in appeal too.

    The problem here is the Saudi Shariah Law, Saudi Judicial System, the Public attitude towards the children and pedophilia.

    In a country where a 80 year old man can marry a 6 year old girl legally, proves that pedophilia is very much tolerated and condoned.

  26. Ahmed a young baby girl died and you dare to defile her death by twisting this into a political agenda! Do you live in Saudi? People are very angry and to paint them all in one horrible brush is cowardice of you. Look all over the internet and Saudi bloggers and twitters, you will see that they are riled up but unfortunately cannot do much unless they want to be ‘behind the sun’. Saudis are very angry about this, hopefully the verdict will change.

  27. Here look at this article, you can see that the Saudis are riled up, you just refused to see it thinking they are all barbaric and sadist. Disgusting to even read people using this girl’s death to yet again preach hate. Utterly repulsive!

  28. @MrsB, i am no politician and yeah i did live in Saudi to know first hand the perverted Saudi way of life. And very much i my self have been a victim of Saudi Racism and abuse.

    The problem here is Saudi Pedophiles can get way under the Saudi Shariah Law, that is the problem.

    And this is not the first time, some time back there was this Qatif Rape case where the victim was put on trial and one to many cases. The Question is how many more Lama’s need to be abused before the Saudi Shariah Law is reformed???

    BTW with the news article you quoted is from a UAE News paper not Saudi News Paper. I am still searching for a saudi news paper condemning this atrocity, if you have seen any please let me know. Or is it that the Saudi Media also condones the release of this pedophile? afterall he was judged by the Saudi Shairah court and he can’t be wrong isn’t it.

  29. @ahmed and Mrs B

    I did just read that in saudi a father can kill a child without punishment which is extremely frightening!

    Where does this come from?! Have such acts also been committed in the past and such fathers got away with it?

    Up to what age can a father kill his children?!

    I wonder if they can go around this, by first stripping such ‘ fathers’ of their guardianship and then punishing them as common criminals. If that is not done, there is no family safety whatsoever!

  30. Ahmed, There are Saudi activists, bloggers, etc who are outraged and speak out and try to rally people, however, this is a dangerous thing to do, people disappear for such actions, no matter how noble, how right they are, in Saudi Arabia. The best route has been to make it worldwide news and to shame the Saudi government to do the right thing, like happened in the ”’Girl of Qatif” case.

    Gigi, click the link to Saudi woman’s blog, she quotes a human rights worker, men who kill their children or wives get minimal punishment. They are after all their property.
    And if they can keep their victims alive there’s nothing which can save them.

    Sharia law is a bad law. Any ”law” which does not protect women and children is a bad law.
    I never ever want to hear a Muslim tell me that Sharia is such a wonderful set of laws.

  31. Ahmed, please go to cnn’s link on the top right corner of this page. You will see how the father has been in jail for 8 months now, and his case is going on trial, to receive the maximum penalty. Yahoo jumped the gun on this case, and has not reported the full news. This case is on going, so just chill and wait to see the verdict. Please stop attacking every word one says, you have taken this a little to personal! This was from you own comment to Mrs B.

  32. Gigi, i am not sure where you read that a SAUDI father can kill his wife or child and not be accountable. If you googled it, please know that a lot of information on the net is not true. This is not the Law of Islam. It is not logical that in any religion or country this could be a law. Like I said before Lama was taken from us to early, but this case has been going on for eight months, and all the meanwhile this animal has been in jail(not out on bail)! This is a continuos case here is Saudi, and he will barely go on trial. People here are fighting for the death penalty, including the mufti of Saudi Arabia. Let us all be patient to wait for the verdict of Lama’s killer, before judging the country or it’s people as a whole!

  33. Ahmed, yes it is a UAE paper. Concerning Saudi paper, you can check Al Arabiya for a start and you can see the comments there. Gigi, can you please give me a reliable link that supports your claim that a Saudi father can kill his child without repercussions? Is there a written law somewhere? I am deeply sad that this child’s death has been used as a political or even religious bashing tool. People are cruel!

  34. @ Norma: I read that in Sharia a father can kill his children or wife, with no apparent punishment as they ‘ belong’ to him.

    An example is the hounour killings, based on this belonging:

    Many males have gone unpunished in a number of Sharia ruled countries, with the excuse that their wife ‘ flirted’ for example or his daughter ‘ talked on the phone’ with a man.

    Thus the assumption is that this holds true also in Saudi Arabia and that is why the father also used the clause that he questioned ‘ her virginity’.to re-enforce his case.

    Nevertheless if you have more information on the official rulings of sharia in the above please share as I am not an expert.

    Furthermore what re-enforces the above beliefs is the punishment he first received.

    Why he was not convicted with the death penalty at the first instance. It was a case of rape and murder!

    I do understand that most of the Saudi society is outraged and many people from all over the world have been shocked by this story which has made international deadlines.

    I dont doubt the feeling of the society and I do hope that he serves the dealth penalty and public disgrace ! He is indeed as you say an ANIMAL and there should be no way out for him.

    What about his other wife- Lamas stemmother- too?! Why she did not try to stop this? Where is she in the picture?!

  35. You all should read the links provided at the end of the article. The judge in this case is of the opinion that based on some obscure hadith a father cannot be executed for killing one of his children.

    A Saudi worker for human Rights association claims this soft punishments of men who kill their children and wives is the norm, not the exception in Saudi Arabia.

    This story is by now all over the papers in the Middle East and in the west.

    I do not think that after the initial shock has died down after reading this horrible crime it is unnatural to start thinking why is this man not punished according to the usual draconian punishments in this country> What i going on? And then as they only have Sharia ”law” in Saudi Arabia i do not think anything wrong with criticising both country and law. How can you call that ”bashing”? It’s a just criticism of a country and a set of laws who both completely fail in protecting the weak nd innocent, women and children, from being subjected to all kinds of abuse, torture, and murder.

    Saudi Arabia and Sharia law fail in protecting women and children.

  36. I condemn this man for the murder he has comitted. I condemn this man for the trust he has breached, the trust his daughter holds over him. And I pray Allah shall punish him if not in this world, then he will suffer never endingly in the next world. Such act has been condemn in the Quran, not some weak hadith these weakling scholars hold to and Islam-hating opportunists revel in. Look up Quran 16:59.

  37. Have a look at this abstract from the link below:

    Contrary to such denialism, though, the evidence illustrates that Islamic orthodoxy generally condones the practice, whilst not explicitly recommending it per se. The most egregious case in point is the Umdat Al-Salik (“Reliance of the Sojourner” in Arabic), a manual on Shari’a (Islamic law) certified by Al-Azhar University, the most prominent and authoritative institute of Islamic jurisprudence in the world, as a reliable guide to orthodox Sunni Islam.

    The manual states (01.1-2) that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right,” except when “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers)” kills his or her “offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” Hence, according to this view a parent, who murders his or her son/daughter for the sake of “honor,” whether owing to issues of chastity, apostasy and the like, incurs no penalty under Shari’a. This ruling is derived from a hadith (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4457) where it is affirmed that one should not kill a child unless one could know “what Khadir had known about the child he killed.” Khadir is a figure featured in the Qur’an who accompanies Moses on a journey and kills a son of believing parents for fear that he would rebel against the will of God (18:74 and 18:80-81).

  38. Aafke if you read any of the comments on Yahoo news (and many other obscure websites), you would understand what I meant by ‘bashing’. By all means, condemn the Saudi law on these cases, I am with you. But take a deep look at Ahmed’s comment and you’d realised that he is one of the people I pointed out about bashing, he accused the Saudi society as being cowards for not ‘rioting’ over this case.

  39. One clear picture i see from the comments here is, one group is condemning the incident and is disgusted by it.

    While the other group also supposedly condemns the incident but is more offended by the criticism of the underlying causes by the former group.

  40. ‘Supposedly’? You are off your rocker! You seem to have elected yourself as the judge on who is sincere and who is not! Be careful of accusing people of being insincere.

  41. MrsB, I did not read those comments. But I believe you, there will be a lot of ”bashing” going on. I thought you meant here on this thread. I think we are still having an open and civilized conversation here.

  42. @mrsb no one is here to prove any body as wrong or right.
    As free men and women we have the right to condemn whats wrong, and I condemn the underlying culture and religiosity in Saudi Society which leads to such gross abuses of innocent, women and children.

    I very well know that criticism of any kind targeting the negative aspects of Saudi Culture or Islam is not well received by muslims. Being a muslim myself i know this very well.

    What saddens me is that the muslims still place their religion and culture over the safety and rights of children, women and men.

    Sorry, your comment was stuck in spam.

  43. I agree with Coolred though, it’s amazing to see muslim countries standing up against some silly caryoons, going berserk, burning stores, killing innocents because somebody somewhere published some silly cartoons about Mohammed, and when children are raped and tortured to death by their ”owners”, (father or men who paid for them) all you get is a few bloggers and activists who protest these horrible crimes with danger for their persons.

    And only a few of these cases get this attention at all. I was never able to find out if the Yemeni man who raped his 13 year ol ”wife” to death in two days got any punishment at all? Actually, after the first day and she was so torn up inside the hospital was shocked they did allow him to take her home and rape her to death. Because he owns her.
    In Islam and Sharia women and children are the property of men, who can rape, beat and abuse them, and even kill them.

    Islam and Sharia, and Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia fail in humanity, in justice, in the protection of women and children. They fail against, what I fully trust and believe is the majority, of their own citizens, believing flock, yet the failure prevails. I think Muslims should look to their religion and Sharia laws and find out why.

  44. I live in Al Khobar & still haven’t heard of or seen any public outcries about this case. Maybe I am missing something.
    @ Mrs B, Saudis should be marching or doing something in the streets on top of the internet.
    @Norma Ortiz, Had the dad been of another nationality the outcome of this case would have been totally different. No matter how hard one tries to defend the Saudi Judicial system we know how bias it is, right?
    Don’t know how some people can look at themselves in a mirror let alone keep on living…

  45. The worst is, it seems from what we know of the reports that he isn’t sorry at all! This piece of filth should be off the streets, kept away from his other children, from anybody’s children, from women. That is the problem.

    This judge has responsibilities which he does not stand for, to make him pay for what he did to his daughter, and also to keep the rest of society, women and children safe from him. A debauched piece of human wreckage like this cannot be let out in society?!?!?

  46. Rahma, if you have read what I have been writing all along…this is an on going trial!! There has not been a verdict!! This killer(by no means is he called a father) has been in jail of 8 months awaiting his verdict. The trial is to start in two weeks. There are many activists on the side of the mother, including the mufti of Saudi Arabia. I as a mother who has signed the petition for his punishment to be death…as many SAUDI fathers and mothers. I agree there are many steps to take for the country to better itself…but hell, everyone is freaking jumping the gun on this. If you read the comments from the beginning, you will see so much bashing on Saudis>Ahmed saying Saudis think they are better than everyone else. When did we lose focus on praying that the verdict brings justice to lama and her family…let’s wait for the verdict and then continue this discussion

    OVER AND OUT!!!!!!!!
    I literally have a migrane!! And still have to tutor my four kids 😦

  47. No parent will willingly accept this man going free. however having livedin saudi , IMO, signing a petition is one thing, going out onthe streets to protest is another. I’m outraged as a human being, but would i risk my going to jail and having my kids fend for themselves ?? highly unlikely. i would support by giving money, helping with anything i can and being a moral support but in saudi it is risky to go out in the street s to protest, yes without protest change cannot come , i may be ok to scrifice my life but can never put my kids in jeopardy. so i assume a majority of saudi can do nothing.

    the diff between this and other places is , crimes, violent , against women, kids happen everywhere, there are vile poeple spread thru the world irrespective of religion or nationality but only in saudi do laws suport them.
    and unfortunately in saudi mass protest means bad things happening to the protesters… so comparing this with any other place is futile. ksa has a special set of circumstances and unfortunately people have to work withing them or risk their family’s well being and their freedom.

  48. I wonder rather than a protest, an organized group arrive at a local majlis for CP Salman or something similar?

    On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:04 AM, American Bedu

  49. You know what’s sicker than what this man had done?
    His governments support implicit or otherwise which amounts to covering his crime.
    Also the media internationally and locally are not exposing what this man has done again support.
    A shooting in America regardless how gruesome gets coverage why not some Saudi sickos crime?
    Are they truly above the law?

  50. Two things that I believe to be sacred in this world are life and free will (as long as you are not infringing on anyone else’s free will). The father in this story violated both of these things. Furthermore, he abused his daughter to the point of death.

    While I have been blessed with amazing parents, I did have friends in the US who were abused (some molested) by their parents. What bothers me is that in this case, it seems like the father did it to get back at the mother. Where in the US the children would be protected (typically) by the state, in KSA the child is given to the father, the abuser. There is something wrong with this picture. What I would like to know is where is the father’s family? Are they condoning his actions? Or have they disowned him? Would the father’s tribe eventually lose face over this? Furthermore, would any other woman end up being forced to marry such a sick man?

    Perhaps the sickest thing about all this is the idea that a man can’t be killed for murdering a woman or child. I don’t know where people get the idea that women are worth less than a man. Even in Islam, I thought it was about men and women being equal in the eyes of God/Allah, even if they have different roles. How, then, is it okay for a man to kill his wife and/or child(ren)?

    Just because men are typically physically stronger, women are thought to have superior endurance (due to differences in hormone levels). These differences are usually small and only make a difference in the realm of professional sports granted that the women and men are provided with an equal opportunity to become physically fit. Furthermore, genetics plays a larger role. As for the mind: environment, genetics, a willingness to listen and learn, and opportunity play a larger role than whether someone is male or female.

    So how then is one gender considered worth less than another? And why should women still be fighting for their rights in this day and age? Is it that perhaps some men feel psychologically inferior to women and therefore have to use religion and fear as a means of keeping the women inferior and thus beneath a man, i.e. them?

  51. Strange one, you are wrong if you think that women in Islam are equal to men. I suggest you read a bit.
    Women are definitely inferior in islam. That’s why the more Islamic a society, the worse it is for the women. that’s why a man can rape his 13 year old ”wife” to death. That is why a father can rape and torture his daughter to death.

  52. Quite a ‘soft’ report of the incident in Al Arabiya News isn’t it?

  53. @ahmed
    That was funny.

    What’s interesting is you never hear anyone questioning the entire American people or their way of life when you read the stats for rape murder peadophilia etc.

    We can distinguish the nice person from the bad ones. So why is it when we talk of Islam Saudi comes to mind? Name one thing that represents Islam in Saudi Culture and I promise you it will be found in other places where Muslims live.

    There is a huge difference between Islamic Culture and saudi culture.

  54. Ibrahim, at least the US has stats. Saudi has not, and if it has the stats for rape incest and abuse would be off the scale. The less rights women have, the less respected they are, the more rape and abuse there will be.
    Please go to the top of this page and read what a Saudi Islamic preacher can get away with. God knows how many more men get away with the same sort of crimes. Every now and then we hear about one though.
    In a country/society/religion where women and children are property, where only men count, where even the testimony of a woman is worth only half of that of a man, that is where crimes against women and children go through the roof.
    because Islam, Saudi Arabia, and Sharia law considers women and children property, and it makes no provision for protecting them against their owners.
    That is when excessive revolting crimes like this will flourish.

  55. This crime is getting greater world attention. CNN has now covered it.

    I think Saudi citizens should all agree to go to their local majlis wherever they are located on a specified day and complain to the Prince in charge of the majlis that justice was not served.

    On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:28 PM, American Bedu

  56. Definitely, this was a henious crime, the society has to demand the death penalty and make an example of him.

    The message has to be strong and clear: it is simply not acceptable that the death penalty was not imposed at the first instance to a person very dangerous to the society: a self confessed rapist, torturer and killer of minors.

    Additionally, what about the stepmother? Where is she in all this? The girl was also under her supervision? What was her role? Did she try to stop him? I have not heard anything about her at all.

  57. My understanding is that he has not been sentanced yet (I suspect the ministry rejected what the judge did and sent it back-possibly because of the global coverage) and remains in jail.

    The ruling about not punishing for the death of a child is supposed to apply in cases of a genuine accident. Where is it assumed a normal parent would be absolutely devastated to have accidentally caused the death of their own child. Islamic law would say- living with that is punishment enough.

    However, perversion seems to rule in KSA. Combined with tribal law and patriarchy- this is the sort of judgement we hear about.

  58. I read about this earlier and thought you would post something about it. What an outrage. How dare he use her being disobedient for him being a pedophile. He is clergy is he not? I think he should be beheaded. I bet he gets out so he can do it again.

  59. The little girl was not in the custody of her mother for her mother to do anything to stop it. The court awarded him custody upon divorce.

  60. To Ibrahim: We punish our pedophiles and all of those others you mentioned. They do not get out in a year for murder.

  61. according to a highly respected online academic journal, middle east forum quarterly, whether due to culture or religion or tradition, muslims commit 91 percent of honor killings worldwide. islamic clerics invariably issue their fatwas in support of honor killings based on Al-Azhar Univ-certified ‘Umdat al-Salik 01.1-2. in other words, a husband or father or brother who kills his wife or sister or a child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.

    deny as many muslims may do, those are the facts. or as george orwell said it so succinctly, “further a society drifts away from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it!”

  62. That’s my point. Crime is committed every where. How you deal with it determines what type of society it is. If a preacher is not made an example if it means that society is not Islamic inwardly and outwardly. Not sure about what you meant about stats in USA, but the fact is the application if the law even in the US depends on how rich a person is, and their skin color.
    As for the Saudi law it is far from sharia law. Try call it that so they can fool the masses including some who read these posts. It’s like saying in Israel the law is a Jewish one or that in Iran the law is Islamic one. They are all secular laws disguised as religious.
    I believe I was the first to respond to the post cause it was sickening.
    Did you know that the Arabs used to bury their daughters alive before Islam?
    If you ask the Saudis whether this man us any different fromthose Arabs you will hear a vehement yes, but any sane person not affected by that culture can tell you it is sick and he deserves a punishment that fits the crime. Not a bloody 8 month in jail therefore he can walk free. The judge deserves to be humiliated in public for abusing his position. And we can keep going on and on.
    It’s like the oj case. He did the crime but cause he was rich he got off!

  63. Ibrahim:

    Yes your right. OJ Simpson got off for killing a white woman(x-wife) and an innocent by-stander due to his status and race.

  64. Let’s wait & see, there might be Fatwas against this dad coming soon…(not).
    Also, some of my Arab speaking friends living here(Lebanese…) are saying they haven’t heard about this on Saudi TV, anybody watches Saudi TV? They might be waiting for a final decision, who knows.

  65. Where r the good Muslims gone if this is against Islam why the muslims around the world stood up and do something and let the world know that what these peado doing is wrong if someone say something against Islam Muslims start shouting and now a baby being killed raped and father get nearly no punishment as per Islamic law. If they r mis using Islamic law then why good Muslims not challenge them.

  66. The problem is Sharia is a bad law. Any judge can interpret it as they like, and worse, it doesn’t protect women and children.
    Saudi Arabia is a dysfunctional society because they have virtually no protection for women and children. To have such bad systems inevitably ends in a lot of suffering.
    And it is based in islam, the fault of islam is that it prefers men over women, it considers men are worth more than women, women’s testimony is worth only half of that of a man. This is completely wrong. Islam gives men more rights than women, it puts men above women. This is wrong. The result is injustice and in cases like these torture, rape and death, and, if no global public outcry had risen freedom for the debouched sub-human.

    A system likes Saudi Arabia and Sharia will create such sub-human men. We see it all over the world, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and other places. We see it in the condoning of ”honor” killings against women. We see it in the condoning of pedophilic marriage. We see it when women are punished for being the victims of rape.

    Islam and Sharia are bad systems, they create suffering and death for women and children wherever they get power.

  67. In conclusion you think that Saudi law is synonymous to Sharia law.
    Very deep argument though we live in an Information Age where virtually all types of information is available.

  68. We see it all over the world, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and other places. We see it in the condoning of ”honor” killings against women. We see it in the condoning of pedophilic marriage. We see it when women are punished for being the victims of rape.

    This isn’t a religious issue. Honor killing is a cultural and socioeconomic issue. I would be very surprised to hear a devout Muslim who grew up in an upper class society commit honor killing but would not be shocked to hear about it happening in a remote village in South East Asia albeit both being Muslims. As Ibrahim correctly said, information is everywhere but judging from these type of comments, the quality of information is very much an issue.

  69. Plus you shouldn’t condemn everyone for the actions of a few. You are turning the action of this killer as if it is the norm for us who adhere to Islam. This is very typical of you. No Muslim in their right mind would condone such tragedy. We do not have to apolagize on behalf of Islam for the actions of a Murderer!

  70. It is a religious issue. Sharia law is a religious law, based on the Quran and especially the hadith.
    Islam itself is based on early Christianity (and some pagan rituals thrown in). The Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, fail in protecting women and children. These religions take away human rights from women and children, they relegate them to the level of ”chattel” or ”property”.
    These religions then fail in providing protection for women and children.

    These religions are so badly written, and have so many immoral rules and injunctions, that you see crimes against women and children everywhere they come into power. And those crimes, including murder, get minimal punishment if the criminal was the owner(according to religious rules) of the woman/child.
    This is the big fail of the Abrahamic religions.

  71. Mrs B, you said * No Muslim in their right mind would condone such tragedy*
    That is not quite true, apparently there are a number of people, including among the Islamic judges and scholars, who do think that a man can commit a number of crimes against women and children who are his property, and only deserve a comparatively light punishment.
    This is actually the norm in Saudi Arabia to such an extend that is is very, very rare if a man gets the normal punishment for a crime if it is committed against women/children who are his property according to Saudi law.

    But I also agree with you that many Muslims do not condone these crimes, and light punishments. That is because you, and these other Muslims are better than your holy books. Most religious people are better than their holy books. That is why you see religions improve when they loose power. When religions loose power and have to play nice they become much better.
    However, the evil morality is still in the holy books and as soon as they get their change they revert back to darkness and evil.

    Why do you think all these nice people, with good hearts, who happen to be Muslims have so little influence in societies where Islam rules supreme? Why is is that the more Islamic and religious a society becomes the worse it gets, especially for women. children and non-believers?

    I think it is because these religions are bad. Come on, we can all read the holy books. we know what’s written in there, and it is the core of the misogyny and marginalization of women and children, it is in there!
    The immoral teachings in the holy books come out when religions gain in power, and the first to suffer are always the women and children.

    This case is a sad and horrible illustration of how Islam and Sharia law fails in protecting women and children.

  72. You don’t see all the Americans refuting freedom and denouncing America because some guy goes into a school and kills 5 year olds either.

    What’s your point?

    All people whether Muslims or not reject what any killer does to any innocent being.

    What makes this worse are the fact that he is a ‘holy shit’ hiding behind his country.

    Why is it that all the other holy ones and Arab leaders can travel without anything happening to them?

    Because they petrol dollars.

    You are asking the wrong questions buddy!

  73. Where does America come in?

    Clearly not all Muslims reject killing others. Do I need to say 9-11? Honor killings? ”Lama”????

    Have you read the Quran? Do you know about death to apostates?

  74. Like i said before not sure if you got it or its lost in cyber.

    Islam is built on the mind.

    You made a lot of sweeping emotional claims which you cannot or never be able to back.

    This ghoul should be dealt with based in the evidence and the law which have clearly failed.

    How you connect that with Islam is like connecting Clinton Lewinsky to a Red indian peace pipe.

    One has to be berry emotional to accept what you’re saying!

  75. @ ibrahim: the point is that if in America someone shoots a 5 year old- he does not get away with it, because he is the father! In the contrary he is even more despised and the public is even more outraged by it!

    The reason people connect it with Islam is that a sharia court, based on hadith allowed the above to happen. Thus the connection is there and it is not random.

    Now beyond the comment to IbrahimI wonder this- How do SAUDI MEN feel about their right to kill their daughter/wife in the case they are ‘suspicious’ of flirting for example? It is again the same right applied as in the case above- the principle of their wife/daugher being their ‘property’

    Do they feel that this correct or that this clause should be removed and they should be beheaded for it as any other common criminal?

  76. You have a point. However, what you should be doing is asking a Saudi these questions on a sAaauuuudddiii site not a site that brought your attention to something so atrocious to everyone and then let your blind side exposé itself. Namely your hatred of Islam or for Islam disguised as love of the child Lama.
    Ask yourself this question, if what the Saudis did was based on Islam then why isn’t the mother of the girl changing her religion? Because everyone knows that Saudi law never goes against a Saudi. Ask AB how many girls were asking do their rights from Saudi men after living in the states and ten returning to their country.
    Get it in your head the pretence that legitimizes the Saudi law called Islam is for keeping the people down.
    If you want action pontificate on this: why hasn’t there ever been a single action international or other wise against any of the crimes committed either against, women, children, non-Muslims, by Saudis from any single International country.
    It is so deep that to this day you have never hear criticism of any kind from even the bold countries such Israel or France or the more pretty ones such as US or China.

    Islam on the other hand gets trampled on precisely because (and this is for the intelligent ones) there is no single country that claims to be purely Islamic.

    Saudi is for Saudis. Dare you go there and say anything you like about the country and watch what happens!

    So why aren’t the bigger countries making her submissive to all aspects of international law?

    Again, Islam is built on the mind.

    Saudi Islam is built on what is publicly acceptable.

    Have you ever been on a plane and as soon as you’re sitting Saudi the woman next to you removes her hijab. Do you know why? Because throughout her life he did it because she was told to. Not through any conviction.

    In much the same way most Saudis might even deplore what happened to this poor girl. But this isn’t a football match and therefor their emotions are not even triggered by it or moved to protest against it!

    Get your facts right.

    Islam is built in the mind!.

  77. Unfortunately Ibrahim you are very aggresive and take the liberty in calling people haters of Islam!

    I don’t appreciate being called the hater of any religion and I remain to my rights to question a number of practices that I find very concerning.

    Additionally, this blog is frequented by many nationalities and of course there could be saudi males that would like to give their opinion.

    Do they agree with it or they want this law abolished?!

    What about other males who belong to countries were there is a high rate of honour killins, and similarly- based on the right that the wife/childen are ‘ property’ get away with it?

  78. Ibrahim, changing religion means the death penalty you know that. Most Muslims agree on that Islamic rules according to islamic polls.
    The Abrahamic religions fail in protecting women and children.

    Islam and it’s Sharia law fails in protecting women and children. If you do not like this situation you are the one who should get out of religion. Or you should change your religion. As it stands now you are following a religion which causes endless suffering to women and children because it does not protect them.

  79. You’re quite right Gigi to say that and my stance was because someone on this site compared Islam with paganism or te Saudi law with Islamic law when the two even on a basic level aren’t the same And if they were why say for instance Saudi law or that law etc. the two aren’t synonymous at all.
    There has been a lot written here and it’s for those who follow the threads who can see that I’m asking those who have been embolden to attack Islam to defend themselves.
    For instance, name one thing I’ve said that I haven’t been able to back?

  80. Like I said ask the girl in Pakistan who was shot by some crazy monkeys if she would ve willing to change her religion.
    Ask Lama’s mother if what that guy did can be backed up by islamn so she can change her religion.
    When you address a religion you go to its basis. In the case of Islam, it is based on what can be proven without any shadow of doubt.
    If you would like try and investigate it a bit more.
    Unless what you are saying that the entire population of Muslims over 1400 year are wrong because you have found a flaw which they haven’t.
    The basis of Islam is never the Saudis. And intact if you think Saudi Islam is what is islamic you might never be a Muslim.
    But if you would like to find out more start from the beginning. Like the bible says, which we believe in, first there was the beginning:)
    Start from the beginning.

  81. MrsB: I would be very surprised to hear a devout Muslim who grew up in an upper class society commit honor killing but would not be shocked to hear about it happening in a remote village in South East Asia albeit both being Muslims

    Sorry but sadly this comment came across to me the same as the infamous naive and snobbish ala Marie Antoinesque comment during the French Revolution: Qu’ils mangent de la brioche/Let them eat cake.

  82. ibrahim:

    Islam is not built on the mind. It is built upon a allegory (a story) written in a book. It is a fairytale.

  83. Ibrahim, you are quite right in one sense: “Islam is built on the mind”. This explains people like you and Mrs B. To you, her and so many good Muslims, Islam is what you want to believe it is (wonderful, sweet, peaceful, tolerant, insert favorite adjective here).

    There is another view that is very much valid, however: that Islam is what its holy writings say it is or even islam is what Muslims do.

    The two views are not compatible. If you argue the first case, you must ignore or explain away (unconvincingly) the Quran and hadith, and you must disregard so much of what happens in islamic societies, making excuses for dogma and actions that do not fit your “mental Muslim” vision. This is the old blame game, filled with excuse after excuse after excuse for elements of theology and behavior that are not part of your Islam.

    Sweeping generalizations are fine, but the fine print is poison. You cannot say that “All people whether Muslims or not reject what any killer does to any innocent being” when we have hadith that condone brutal murder (take the case of Asma bint Marwan, for example). In fact, when it comes to simple murder, Muslims have a hard time because the Quran isn’t exactly clear on the subject (no “Thou shalt not kill”), or much to the contrary because it proclaims “killing and being killed” to be the the purpose of Muslims on earth (no ifs, buts, conditions, reservations or limitations). Great! I guess it is nice that Allah wasn’t too specific about who kills who, and doesn’t limit it to killing non-Muslims. Whewwwww!.I guess that this explains the bombs (again) this week in Iraq – just Muslims doing what Muslims are supposed to do for the glory of Allah.

    Yet the Quran itself says its simple and easy to understand, so what gives? How can a perfect, complete book (as Muslims say) be so easily misunderstood and misapplied?
    The funny thing is that I bet you and Mrs B could right a non-religious moral code in about 1000 words and get it right. I could probably put my ‘X’ under it, too. I cannot, however, accept the Quran as a source of morality or fountain of wisdom because it is neither.

  84. And that is an opinion you coined up based on what you have experienced rather than what is the reality.

    When a person says the world is flat an sooner or later he might fall off it does that make the person correct because he strongly holds onto that principle and can prove it to himself and anyone who bothers to listen to him?

    Well then do some further investigating to find how Islam does agree with ‘human’ thinking and ‘human’ nature.

    Notice how you were quick to mention Quran, Hadith, Muslims, but far from the basis of the argument.

    Namely, My claim above. You might at least try before giving up so early on.

  85. Izzat, there is actually no record of Marie Antoinette actually saying that infamous phrase. Nevertheless, you are wrong to compare the famine in France and the situation I have gave as an example. It all boils down to education, honor killing has no place in Islam. If it were, you would hear about it by some upper class Muslim as well instead of some illiterate, uneducated backward South Asian father/husband.

  86. Jay, that was an excellent comment. I liked the way you so clealry put three interpretations of Islam (and any other religion) together.
    1 Personal interpretation and cherrypicking
    2 What’s literally in the books
    3 How is it working out in reality in society

  87. @ MrsB

    Unfortunately honor killings also take place in upper class south asian families.

    Just an example of a wife being beheaded for asking for divorce by her MBA holder husband:

  88. Quote: “a muslim who raped [in the sense of statutory rape -EV] a 13-year-old girl he groomed on Facebook has been spared a prison sentence after a judge heard he went to an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless.”

    He said he had been taught ‘women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground’ This at an Islamic school where you would think the teachers would have found a textual basis in the “simple, clear and perfect” Quran to argue for the elevated, honored and protected status of women and children– or maybe not.

    say what you want about Christian education and churches, but I bet there is not a Christian school anywhere that teaches this kind of crap about women and there is not a church in the world where one has to worry about his/her safety when saying anything derogatory about Christ, God, the Bible, Christian doctrine or the clergy. And Muslims tell us that it is islam that is really is peaceful, benevolent and tolerant.

    That lollipop really gets around. I seem to remember an Imam and a lollipop sermon in Australia about two years ago.

    Taking this further, and having no shame, I suggest:
    Honor thy father and thy lollipop, that your days may be long…
    Husbands, love your lollipops, even as Christ also loved…..
    Therefore a man will leave his father and his lollipop and cling to his own lollipop, and they will become one flesh.

  89. Gigi how do you differentiate honor killing and pure evil than? Or are they both the same? You handing out that piece of news clip, are you trying to tell me that you’ve never heard of an enraged husband murdering his wife from,say, a White American who happens to be from an upper class society? But this begs the question, why isn’t this classified as honor killing? I read your piece of news Gigi and I didn’t see anything about honor killing, simply a mad ex husband who beheaded his wife probably out of pure evil mixed with rage.

  90. @ Mrs B. There is no differentiation: honour killings and pure evil are exactly the same.

    Additionally this guy was prosecuted because he commited the crime outside Pakistan in a land that where even if a white american did the same he would be severely punished.

    Had it been in Pakistan, India, Jordan, etc he would be getting away with a LIGHT sentance – that is the PENAL CODE THERE AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
    She asked for divorce: he offended his honour as she diminished in him the sense of control over her- the so called ‘object-possesion’/

    There are a number of honour killings in south east asia/Iran/Kurdistan/Arab world and it is horrific that to this day and age there have not been larger movements to abolish these archaic penal codes.

    Worst it is that women from such extended families end up being pressured to be part of the ‘ honour killing’ as it is not always 1 enraged individual- it is many times a planned murder by the extended family.

    Mind you: what about the family living with this evil man- Alghamdi- where are they? They even supported him!

    In memory of this young girl we should be committed to support her honour and dignity in life and under no circumstances try to pretend there are not honour killings in parts of the world that go unpunished.

    We need to stand up for her, beyond religion/tribe/nationality.

    This is about humanity if anything!

  91. There is no such thing as ”honor”killing. It is pure evil. It is the worst kind of murder, the lowest, below bestiality a human can sink.

    It’s disgusting to see how the strongest feelings in a human, that of love and protection of their children, their wives, or sisters, can be corrupted into the vilest of crimes by religion. For this alone religions should be erased forever.

  92. In memory of this young girl we should be committed to support her honour and dignity in life and under no circumstances try to pretend there are not honour killings in parts of the world that go unpunished.

    Agreed a million percent! As for religion being erased forever, that is what we call being under the influence of dogma, a dangerous cruel way of thinking. We have seen the consequences of being under many atheist dictators, it was unpleasant to say the least (State Atheism). You sound like a dictator my dear Aafke.


    A useful insight into honor killing just to clear up some usual banter that religion is the cause. Some excerpts:

    This crime genre transcends every nationality, religious faith or group, nor is it unique to the UK, every country in the world has honour-based violence.

    Honour-based violence can be a socioeconomic issue. Experts say there is a strong correlation between violence against women and issues such as inequality between men. In deprived communities where men are struggling to earn a living they can feel subordinated and lacking in respect, and so try to get their authority back by dominating anyone below them, usually women.

    In Pakistan the practice of honour killing – called karo-kari – sees more than 10,000 women die each year. In Syria, men can kill female relatives in a crime of passion as long as it is not premeditated. It is legal for a husband to kill his wife in Jordan if he catches her committing adultery.

    Crime of passion can be a full or partial defence in a number of countries including Argentina, Iran, Guatemala, Egypt, Israel and Peru.


  94. Honor killing is not even unique to the poverty stricken part of society. I thought it was, but after reading more into it, it transcends all walks of life. Honor killing can also be related to crime of passion or in the US civil court it is called “temporary insanity”.

    According to University of Toronto professor of women’s studies Shahrzad Mojab, followers of Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Judaism and Christianity have used their religions as a rationale to commit honor killings. She said that honor killings don’t have “any definite connection with religion at all”, and that honor killing had been practiced before any major religion came into existence.

  95. For this alone religions should be erased forever.

    If a Muslim said something along this line, I can just imagine the uproar but an atheist says it and it’s called critical thinking. Disgusting!

  96. There are though some difference between honour killings and ‘ temporary insanity’ murders:

    In the first case a honour killing can be actually planned by family members over a period of time and then covered up, even by the mother.

    In temporay insanity murders it is never planned.

    Adiditionally, yes there were honour killings we can say in Arabia even before Islam- burying young infants in the sand.

    Nevertheless by looking at Abrahamic religions- Judaism, Christianity-Islam ( despite some very good advice they give!) they do discriminate towards women and minors – as well as children out of wedlock.
    Just read the old testament on children born out of wedlock and was shocked at the language and dispise it showed.

    The tragedy we see above went actually unpunished by a sharia- religious court. It was not a civil court that let him free. Thus it was a n islamic religious rulling.

    Thus I am not sure what should happen:

    Religious texts all over the world need to be checked by the current standards of human rights and be rectified, especially if they want to be used as legal manuals! and not just as personal items/readings.

    What happened in KSA, regarding this matter has shocked the world within the frame of children and womens rights. It sends a chil down your spine knowing you can die at the hands of your own family and they would go unpunished.

    No way- this HAS to be reversed.

    This man deserved the death penalty and ANY PENAL CODE this judgement was based upon needs to be immediately recified.

  97. I follwed the case in other Arabic sites and the interview with the mother, no one mentioned the rape, however, he has committed owful acts that he deserve even death sentence

  98. mrs B, on February 8, 2013 at 6:35 am said: “…. followers of Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Judaism and Christianity have used their religions as a rationale to commit honor killings … “.

    That is true. However, muslims account for 91 percent of honor killings worldwide. This is according to a 2010 study titled “Worldwide Trends In Honor Killings” (

    Instead of playing the victim card or indulging in blame games, it is best for muslims to proactively do something about this evil and heinous practice. George Orwell was right on target when he predicted long ago that “further a society drifts away from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it!” That has been proven on this thread.

  99. If people are really ‘religious’ or ‘spiritual’ there would be no ‘honor’ killings. The term goes against any religious or spiritual ideals. We are supposed to HONOR all living things therefore to kill someone is actually dishonorable and to kill someone in your own family is the biggest dishonor of all. Think about it!

  100. just a quick note to say that he is still in jail and the sentence has yet to be passed. He has not been released and there was no money set for him to pay as there hasn’t been a sentence yet. This is in the news today and in news papers today.

  101. mamaB, thanks for the update.

  102. Wendy, you are correct! MamaB, my husband told me the same thing about this news. There is justice after all. Izzat, no one is playing any game but I and other Muslims will never apologise for the crimes of others. So excuse me!

  103. Gigi, according to Islamic law, the murderer/rapist is to be killed so I don’t get why that particular judge pass thst sentence, if at all but as we now know, he isn’t going to escape his crimes.

  104. @ Wendy: religion is not always spirituality. It also provides a system of rules and regulations for the society. In this case we had sharia that passed the judgement.

    @ MrsB Yes, indeed if you killed, you are killed and if you rape you are killed, which is justice done.

    BUT we can deny there is a clause within sharia that allows for fathers/husbands to be unpunished in case of murder of their daughters/wives with the excuse that she was ‘ disobedient’ particularly sexually disobedient.

    Here is it again. You dont have to dispute it if you agree with the clause, but other members in the forum have the right to dispute law, that leads to fathers being allowed to commit legal murders.

    Many Arabic ladies that I know- devout muslims, also pointed out for me this rule and explained why so far he has not been sentenced to death and they also hope it is abolished for their safety and the safety of their children.

    Have a look at this abstract from the link below:

    Contrary to such denialism, though, the evidence illustrates that Islamic orthodoxy generally condones the practice, whilst not explicitly recommending it per se. The most egregious case in point is the Umdat Al-Salik (“Reliance of the Sojourner” in Arabic), a manual on Shari’a (Islamic law) certified by Al-Azhar University, the most prominent and authoritative institute of Islamic jurisprudence in the world, as a reliable guide to orthodox Sunni Islam.

    The manual states (01.1-2) that “retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right,” except when “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers)” kills his or her “offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” Hence, according to this view a parent, who murders his or her son/daughter for the sake of “honor,” whether owing to issues of chastity, apostasy and the like, incurs no penalty under Shari’a. This ruling is derived from a hadith (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4457) where it is affirmed that one should not kill a child unless one could know “what Khadir had known about the child he killed.” Khadir is a figure featured in the Qur’an who accompanies Moses on a journey and kills a son of believing parents for fear that he would rebel against the will of God (18:74 and 18:80-81).

  105. So The manual Umdat Al Salik contradicts the Quran, Gigi, and I am sure you know that the Quran is the highest authority in regards to Islam, not as you stated Al Azhar University. Saudi has a long way to go in terms of being truly just towards women and children. Have you heard of Wadeema’s Law in UAE, another Sharia compliant country? Have you heard of Child Act 2001 in Malaysia, another Islamic country? Tell me, why aren’t these Islamic countries following Umdat Al Salik? Malaysia and UAE are still very much Islamic. Perhaps they have let go of the old tribal mentality unlike EGYPT (Al Azhar) and KSA? Did you know, there is a very old Malay saying that when translated means “let the children die as long as our tradition lives”? Do you know that this saying is now unacceptable thanks to Islam, it was an old saying before Islam arrived to Malaysia? I would like you to read this article by Mama B (i love herblog)
    Excerpt ..
    The average sentence for a child molester in the USA is between 2-12 years of which they don’t necessarily have to serve all of. According to the U.S. department of justice bureau in one year alone 4300 child molesters were released from prison in the U.S.A. None of our systems are good.

    What the hell? A child molester has to serve a measly 2 years? That is in the law!

  106. Gigi, I reread the link you posted including the comments this time and I have to thank you because it actually confirms that honor killing is not Islamic but a cultural issue. Even the author of that article confirmed that and one commentor there actually showed proof of Quranic verse to proof prohibition of honor killing. So thank you for showing me that link.

  107. @MrsB,

    You tend to miss the arguments. No one is saying Islam tells people to kill relatives. However, it lets killers get away with it in certain circumstances. This is similar to US laws which do not tell you to kill an intruder in your home, but you can get away with it if you can proof self defense. The fact is you can interpret Shariia in such away where a man can get away with honor killing.

    I highly doubt that this man will get away with the murder of his daughter, now that it became known in the media. Also, because the evidence points to additional issues like rape and torture, which are beyond honor killing. He almost got away with it because of the corruption of the system, where laws are not codified and judges are allowed to interpret the religion as they see fit.

    Regarding your examples of Islamic countries having laws that differ than recommendations by the Azhar book. 1) Malaysia is a constitutional monarchy with secular laws. Actually the laws are based on British jurisprudence and have survived many attempts by Islamist to introduce Shariia laws. 2) UAE is a little more complicated. It has secular laws when it comes to criminal issues. This is also a remnant from the British control as the Emirates were protected territories of the UK. There are also Shariia courts for personal none criminal disputes (example family courts). So both of your examples are not valid, since both countries apply secular criminal laws.

    It is also important to point out that Egypt also has secular basis for its laws, with Shariia being a source (not the only source) for developing laws. So even if al Azhar develops these ridiculous rulings and interpretations, they do not become law. Hopefully the new Islamist government does not succeed in changing the structure of the laws of the country and send it into the dark ages you find in Saudi.

    Saudi Arabia is a special case, where Shariia is applied. Even the method of application refers to the old tradition of having judges who are supposedly knowledgeable about the religion make rulings based on their personal interpretation. This is exactly how Shariia has always been. There is no codified law system called Shariia. It is an ad hoc process that relies on judges interpreting all the different hadiths, verses of the quraan, and the countless rulings by scholars over the centuries to come up with judgments. Obviously, such system does not work as it does not produce predictable results across cases. This is exactly the reason why you see the flood of bizarre stories about judgments from Saudi.

  108. Spot on MoQ.

    Saudi is also as secular as Malaysia or the Emirates are.

    For instance , in Islam alcohol is haram. It has always been the case. There isn’t a judge who can interpret otherwise.

    However, if the price is right, there are millions if Saudis who have been in jail for not only alcohol use but hard drugs.

    If this was you or I, they would be trying to behead us.

    There are millions of examples of where they apply Islam one way and seek secular laws the other.

  109. @Ibrahim,

    I think your comment confused issues. A judge applying rulings differently based on a person’s connections or bribes is simply corrupt. He is not necessarily abandoning Shariia to apply secular laws.

    Saudi as I explained does apply Sharia with all its ugliness, prejudice, inequality, injustice, inconsistencies and lack of codification.

  110. The point is there isn’t a country that applies sharia 100 percent.
    A judge ruling does not represent sharia. It is the source of his judgement you question.
    Interesting argument that on the one hand Taliban et all are terrorists for applying their version of Islam but Saudi is friend with its application of sharia!
    Still confused? Me think not.

  111. “Interesting argument that on the one hand Taliban et all are terrorists for applying their version of Islam but Saudi is friend with its application of sharia!”

    Yes you are still confused. Where did anyone say the above statement? And what does that have anything to do with the topic and the statements made here.

    Did you ever hear of a strawman argument. Please, google it, because you just made one.

  112. Perhaps so, but the reality is Saudi isn’t based on Islam rather a monarchy.
    That means its constitution isn’t islamic.
    I apologize for assuming too much.

  113. Islam does not prohibit monarchies. Actually all Islamic dynasties were monarchies. Think the Moors, the Ibassies, the Fatimies, the Mamaleek, the Ottomans, etc. The Saudi government just follows in a long tradition of Islamic Monarchies.

    Islam does not have a process for selecting a Khalifah democratically.

    I really do not know what are you trying to achieve with your comments. It seems your arguments are not based on a structure to convey anything other than the random disagreement with Saudi being a Shiriia based system. Unfortunately the facts are not on your side. Shariia has always been used by Monarchs to further their power. The Saudi Monarchs are just another example.

  114. That’s where we differ.

    I suppose you can take the reality/ies as the source of information.

    One can also apply Islam on the reality.

    Judging from the posts here and you have to to scroll from the top there have been posts about Islam agreeing with paganism and your current ‘position’ all seems to agree with the current status quo.

    This is why Saudis will never change. If even people outside Saudi think that it all of Saudi represent Islam then we should be blaming Islam for what Lama’s dad has done to her.

    Which is what you are trying on get at if not implicitly explicitly in the case of some posts.

    My position and you don’t need to google is simply scroll up.

  115. @Ibrahim,

    I do not base my position about Islam and Shariia on what Saudi’s do. Just another assumption of yours. I base it on deep knowledge of the religion and long study of it.

    You base your arguments of the strawman that all people who disagree with Islam must be misinformed based on news articles about Saudi. You cannot avoid these simplistic arguments can you?

    You also have this Utopia view of Islam. That there is fantastic Islamic based principles that are pure, but unfortunately the world just does not understand them enough to apply them. Hence you cannot point to one place where they were actually in effect and produced a society based on fairness, equality, people were so happy they were whistling while they work, etc.

    I got news for you, it has been 1400 years since Islam appeared and it has not produced such society. There is a good reason for that, it is a bad system of law and governing. We have produced superior secular systems which helped societies prosper.

    Please spare me the strawman arguments next time and show me where the true Islam you are talking about has been applied successively and produced a just system.

  116. You base your information on what you called deep study.
    The fact is People as oppsed to indiciduals became Muslims when it was applied fully.
    If you like I can explain to you how to know if a system is applied based in its doctrine.
    On the whole its a matter of your individual opinion.
    When you say ‘we’ who are you identifying with? Hindus culture? Greek culture? Anyhow regardless of who we is, it is not the number that you hide behind but the basis of that culture.
    Because a person is secular it does not mean that a person knows what is right or wrong. Only that a person lives a miserable life seeking satisfaction from anything material.
    Emotional arguments such show me where x is or this is utopia only drum the fact that your application of Islam is incomplete because you want to uphold the status quo.

  117. @ibrahim, Mrs B:
    A Girl was abused by a Saudi Islamic Preacher and he almost got away because of the Saudi Shariah Courts…

    Saudi Arabia defines itself as a Islamic country where Quraan is the constitution, and court cases are judged by Shariah.

    The whole argument about honor killings is not a islamic thing, etc. doesn’t bode well with the existing statistics. Honor killing has been very much prevalent in Islamic and Arab Societies, blame it on culture or blame it on religion, muslims need to correct these issues.

    And again statistics say that Saudi Shariah based courts are a source of more injustice then anything else. And they thrive because people such as you support them and stand by them.

  118. Ibrahim:

    Any law that is unfairly applied to another will illicit an emotional response due to the other being unfairly treated and rightfully so. In islam there are numerous areas where it applies laws which are purposely written to disadvantage a group of individuals based upon their beliefs, gender, orientation or even race. Just on this basis alone Islam fails. Any argument you try to provide can and will be confronted with the actual statements within the Quran, hadith, sira or fiqh which is ISLAM’s construct. Laws are unfairly and often times brutually applied to these groups. I believe that Islam based on the writings have been applied in many countries but it is built on lies, subjectation, corruption, brutality, and hate. Therefore this is why Saudi and other societies of Islam flounder and are in turmoil. Islam is a religion that is based on hatred, corruption and inhumanity. This is why we see the constant turmoil in the middle east as it is just another form of this type of hate called the Abrahamic religions. Religion has always been a source of evil, corruption, murder, hate, racism, and inhumanity. 1400 years of Islam and it’s failures and hatred continues and we are shown it everyday.

    Quite frankly the taliban and Saudi are the same as much of the doctrine of the Taliban and followers orginated from Saudi. So in my assessment Saudi is just a lesser version of the Taliban. I do not agree nor will I tolerate religion’s discrimination against women, homosexuals, races, or children. Religion has upheld this since it inception and based on this it should never be allowed into the public domain as it is an instrument of subjugation and oppression. It should never be tolerated on this level not now and not ever.

    However if certain people want to believe in the tripe and apply it solely to themselves and not force it on another …………fine. I have no problem with a woman who fully accepts the crap that she is a walking vagina or the catalyst of sin and feels the need to cover her dirty self. That is her choice, however, I do not want that view transferred to my daughter. Keep you psycotic belief to yourself. It is pychological damaging to immature minds of both sexes to teach this stupidity. This is but one issue…….I also don’t want racism, homophobia, or the hatred of others (the non-chosen people who don’t believe in murderous, evil, jealous, raping, limited gods) taught to my children either. Therefore I will not have the religious apply their made up hate doctrines to my children so that they can believe in a vengeful, murdering, raping, abusive, jealous, evil Abrahamic (Allah/Yahweh) or other equally lesser religion’s tmanmade tripe god.

    Now don’t get me wrong on one point. I do teach my children about religion and I provide them all the holes in the made up tripe, historical evidence which shows it was made up, the fact that they show they destroyed other competing documents to create the hate religions, the alterations of the documents, the fact that history was written backwards for it, the contradictions, the lies, where apologist who defend the hate texts do mental gymnatics by not showing the other portions of hate in thier texts or try to minimize the idiocy and hatred it (brackets) words that dont’ exist in the actually text, etc………..

  119. I appreciate your position.

    The fact is that western society has always been at odds with religion because religion was the source of turmoil for yonks until thenchurch was separated from the state.

    Naturally it is difficult for anyone living in any secular environment to feel the need to worship without idealizing something material due to the fast pace of life.

    The question is do people know what is right or wrong and can people frilly answer the question of the purpose of existence?

    I can’t answer it for you and neither can you answer it for your kids.

    Therefore Islam turned to these questions and answered them comprehensively and convincingly.

    Islam agrees with human nature and the need to worship something which is why when you hear how some compare Islam to paganism it is irrational to say the least.

    How does a cow answer a persons reason for being and gets reconciled with what the creator says is beyond comprehension.

    There is Islam and then there are Muslims. In as much as the average hillbilly can’t explain the basis of the capitalist doctrine or the average Greek inherited Greek culture is pretty much how many people became Muslims.

    Born into it.

    Most of you would probably make better Muslims if you did convert to Islam because you were convinced intellectually as opposed to emotionally than the majority of Muslims today.

  120. Ibrahim:

    Islam doesn’t answer anything it doesn’t exist without creating harm to another. The doctrines themselves contradict itself and are full of fallacy. The reason for life is to live nothing further. In addition, people are quite away of right and wrong it is not that damn difficult and it never has been. Religion however distorts that picture by stating that other races (racism) are lesser than, women are lesser then or property, children are property, murder is acceptable, rape is acceptable (what your right hand possesses), child abuse is acceptable, torture is acceptable, other human atrocities are acceptable…………if this is your morality then you and I will agree to be at odds for all time.

  121. away should read aware……Oh my kingdom for an edit function.

  122. @Ibrahim,

    As I suspected, like all religious people in debates, when asked a specific question, you start another thread of argument and ignore responding.

    Your last comment to me did not even make any sense, just a bunch of words strung together without producing any logical thought.

    Again, If Islam has a good system of laws, how come it has been 1400 and you cannot show one example of a period where it is applied effectively to produce a system of governing that is superior to our modern day secular systems?

  123. The question is, can you prove your claim so that a person is satisfied beyond any reasonable amount of doubt?

    That is where Islam sits.

    It answers the question if where we originate from and gives us purpose.

    If you wish try and give answers to those questions so that both your mind is at ease and your heart is satisfied.

    You will find only Islam can occupy that vacuum.

  124. You do throw a tantrum.


    Got kids and from my belief, they come before you.

    Perhaps tomorrow…

  125. Ibrahim:

    Islam does not fill the void nor does it answer any question.

    I have my answer. The purpose to life is to live. I orginated from heavy elements from the universe and when I die I go back to that state. I am quite satisified with the answer. What I am not satisified with is where people force others to believe in hate texts and force their hateful fairtytale religious immorality upon others which creates discrimination, psychosis, self-esteem issues, apartheid, racism, debasement of genders (male or female) such as men are ravenous uncontrolable animals and women are sin/uterus/whores/vaginas and the like. Religion reduces humanity to rabid beasts with the intellect of a sexual horn dog. In fact the whole adam/eve fairytale story is base upon keeping humanity in stupidity for it is a sin to seek knowledge.

  126. If you say so Bigstick1.

    If you say so.

  127. Ibrahim:

    It is not me that provides all that but the religious text themselves and it is clearly written.

    If you attempt to make them into something better then I am glad but it is still a discriminatory, hateful text with many examples of such.

  128. You know I appreciate and even respect your honesty.

    If a person doesn’t know where he’s from how can he know where he’s going?

    If a person says that the elements made him how can they tell him the purpose of life?

    If the purpose if life is purely materialistic there won’t be any tranquility in his heart because he will easily float around seeking answers.

    If the answer might be Islam or anything else, it is natural to start at its basis so that nothing is missed:)

    It’s diaper time and i honestly have to go. AB ur site is addictive:)

  129. @Ibrahim,

    “If the purpose if life is purely materialistic there won’t be any tranquility in his heart because he will easily float around seeking answers.”

    Earlier you said, you can back up all your statements. I would like to to see you back this one up. I want to see the logic that ends up in such broad sweeping statement.

    By the way you make so many broad statements readily and I doubt you even know how you came up with such conclusions. This is just a sample.

  130. Ibrahim:

    The purpose of life is to live nothing more. If must have something to quantify more than that then you go beyond the purpose. In other words what you are asking is not for the purpose but you are trying to fill a void in yourself based upon your need to question the purpose… other words you have a void and continue to ask why. Thus you are happy to fill the question of why was I born and what is life about with numerous reason to fill your void. Not the other way around. Thus it is not me that needs to fill a void but you as somehow you are lacking in your purpose to live.

  131. Hi MoQ,

    It is easy to back what can be proven rationally, all you have to do is provide the proof:)

    Islam is easy to follow, not only does it agree with human nature it also leaves you convinced that you are following the right course.

    This is where the assurance and tranquility comes from, your heart and mind are satisfied.

    Everyone is born and then they die. This information I have given you plus what you sense of people living and dying makes you come to a conclusion that is conclusive and unquestionable.

    Anyone who says people comes back as daffodils or floats like a butterfly has to either have been there and back to inform us, or has been there and brought back a proof we can sense,

    People who are born will eventually question and ask where they come from until they have an answer that convinces them or if they do not they will ignore it with a nagging thought at their back of their minds when they have to interpret events based on what came to them on a doubtful basis to begin with.

    Children for example will ask what happened to their pet dogs, cats or fish when they die, and the parents have to either make it up, tell them they don;t know, or tell them the truth. .

    The same with people, the same with events that happen in life, we interpret them according to the answer we are satisfied with regarding this question.

    Everything in life tells you that they have a start and they have an end. There is nothing, NOTHING that is expire-less! Any aspect of life only indicates that people, life, inanimate things are dependent.

    This dependency means they do not in themselves bring themselves into existence. The challenge is this,there is nothing capable of CREATING ANYTHING FROM NOTHING.This means that there is nothing we can sense which is ETERNAL.

    Another thing is that there is a compulsion is us, in life and everything we sense for neediness and dependency. There must be something that compels us to submit to that order.

    A simple example, crude but to the point, we cannot do with out breathing, eating etc. Also we cannot change this fact or rearrange it because we do not like it.

    We are compelled to live under this specific order. Your senses will agree to this because like water boiling every time it reaches 100 degrees, it cannot refuse to boil, and neither can you escape the natural .order of things.

    Scientists discovered that eels travel to certain depth and then lay eggs, swim back to their natural habitat and die. The eggs hatch and then young eelings:) or elvers swim back to where there mums came from.

    Where did they learn geography?

    The question is who designed this universe we live in, who put us here, who regulates it/us and makes it/us conform to a specific proportionality?

    Who imposes, who is this capable being, and who is this being who creates from nothing?

  132. Ibrahim:

    Then if nothing can be made without a supreme being……….then explain to me who made God? Can God be made out of nothing or did someone make the thing? You have such a failed circular argument because you reason fails on the same argument you state science fails except there is proof for what science states and their is emptiness on your end with the exception that you have delusionism in hateful vile fairies.

  133. Ibrahim, even if I agreed all your silly ”proofs” point towards the existence of some all-powerful invisible skydaddy, there’s no reason to believe that that skydaddy would be your sky daddy.
    It could just as well be Vishnu, or Apollo, or Odin.

    And when we look at the magic books ostensibly written or inspired by your invisible skydaddy then it seems hardly likely that such badly written, inconsistent and immoral books really could have come from an all powerful invisible skydaddy. Such a skydaddy should be able to write something better, and not make mistakes all the time.
    And have to redo it all the time.

    And to go back to the subject of this post; an invisible skydaddy who makes up rules that men can own women and children, and can rape, torture and murder them with minimal punishment, or conversely, does not write anywhere that such things are really, really bad, is an evil and immoral skydaddy and it is high time you find a better skydaddy to worship.
    (There’s quite a selection available: humans have been making up skydaddies by the thousands over time…)

    Or, the other option is that these badly written immoral books were made up by a bunch of primitive immoral men.
    And I find the last solution the most convincing.

  134. Great comments Ibrahim. Bear in mind it doesn’t sit well with atheists when it comes to discussion about meaning of life since material-gain is all there is for them.

    Moq , 2 years in prison for molesting a child is a terrible secular law so keep your secular law. I prefer the real Islamic law that asks for death or even cutting the hands of a child molester. Mind you, i said real Islamic law not Saudi law.

  135. Reading your last comment Aafke, I am dead certain you don’t really own a Quran. I think you must have read a book written by the atheist dictator Mao Zedong.

  136. mrsB, then why, for an example, don’t you give me the verse where the Quran explicitly names ”rape” and says a man can never ever rape any woman or child. In any circumstances.
    Or the verse where the Quran mentions pedophilic marriage and tells that grown up men should keep their hands off pre-pubescent girls. Give me the verse which explains women should be fully grown adults (like 20 years old) before men can use them for sex and childbearing
    Or the verse ( the latest one which abrogates all earlier verses) which forbids slavery, which forbids men making people into slaves or raping slaves.
    Show me where women are given equal rights to men in marriage, in giving testimony in inheritance, etc.

    And then come to my house and look at my Qurans (plural) and point out where they have been changed by some ancient evil writer into verses which are so immoral to a rational humane modern human being.

    And then I suppose you should travel to Saudi Arabia, and tell the grand mufti and all other scholars the Quran has been adulterated and should have large parts scrapped and changed.
    And then all existing qurans should be burned and everybody gets the new sanitized version.
    Not at all a bad idea actually. You would be doing a lot of good.
    Of course we also need to scrap about 80% of the hadith. This would make the books of Islam a lot shorter and a lot easier to look stuff up.

    I would be willing to help you. I always say I could write a ”holy” book from god which is immeasurably superior to the torah bible and quran in say, three days, but I would also be willing to do these very sorely needed improvements on the books of Islam.

  137. Why is it up to you to decide the exact age that is deemed as an adult? That is why in this sense (actually in all senses) the Quran is far superior than you as it leaves the current society to decide the appropriate age of consent for marriage. In QURA 4:6, the word nikaah (i.e. marriage) has been tied with the word balaghoo (i.e. the age of puberty, adulthood, adolescence). In 6:152 and 17:34, the blooghat is tied with ashadda, which means an age of full manly vigour and maturity. The context of 4:6, 6:152 and 17:34 indicates that this not only means physical maturity but also the mental maturity when one has sensibility and sense of responsibility. The age of blooghat-e-ashadda has also been clarified 22:5, 28:14 and 40:67. All this suggests that the right age of marriage is when one is mentally and physically mature and has vitality, vigour, sensibility and sense of responsibility. The Quran addresses rape and any transgression better than you do Aafke in 4:19 whereby a man is forbidden to take a woman against her will.

  138. As for coming to your house before I would have loved to fill that invitation because honestly i liked some of your nature but after reading your thoughts on women who wear hijab i have to pass because you see, i wear hijab and I would hate it if my host happens to assume either I am covering up my disfigured head or that i am all holier than thou.The feminist inside me would not agree on having another lady judge my choice of clothing.

  139. Hi bigstick1,

    The point of creating from nothing must be new to a person who assumes that the ‘supreme’ being must also be created.

    Surely it is absurd to assume that the creator is created also?

    It is like making a cup of tea while it is making itself at the same time!.

    You are quite right in realizing this absurdity in your questioning and reasoning. But what we point to is that the human realizes his incapability which should not be a source of suspicion but ,

    The fact is nothing that is needy comes into existence without depending on something. The supreme being, ‘daddy in the sky’, call it what you like, must not be qualified with the same attributes as creation.

    This anthropomorphic thinking is precisely why human beings do not fill the gap of what is expected of them from their creator because their emotions will get the best out of them and they will ascribe and follow what is not factual but emotion and blindness without realizing.

    We are at tho point where you question the originator of everything.

    A creator that does not create from nothing is not a creator. A creator that can create from nothing is not subjected to the rules of creation because that would be simply absurd.

    Everything depends on the creator and not the other way round. There is nothing that exists which we can sense which was not created. There is nothing that exists which we can sense which is not dependent. There is nothing that exists which is not needy..

    This is simply on the issue of things. people, life, etc. I have not even mentioned the peoples inability to comprehend what is beyond them and your questioning should make you realize two things.

    1. You COULD HAVE realized that everything must come from something and they must be created because dependent and needy things cannot will themselves into existence. Will the size of your eyes or its color to change if in doubt:)

    2. People do have a natural tendency to seek glorification of something greater than them. If this was not the case people would not be seeking satisfaction of this urge by worshiping idols in its various forms, pop, sport, or other people.

    This creator should not depend on anything, and things should depend on the creator for their existence. Hence, effecting people, life and creation has to be effecting from nothingness in order for it to be creation.

    The one who effects has to effect people, life and creation from nothingness in order for the creator to be the Creator..

  140. Hi Aafke-Art,

    At least we are moving forward Aafke-Art. I agree with you 100%

    What you ought to do when it comes these matters is to let rational thinking guide you because it will never let you down.

    But science…

    There was a time when the atom was the smallest particle in the world. Somehow after it was ‘debunked’. using the same scientific method of thinking which is claimed to be superior to the rational way of thinking.

    Simple example would help…

    Can you think of a square circle?

    What about people flying by flapping their hands?

    Can you differentiate the two?

    Has anyone experienced either?

    So impossibility is a conclusion we reach not through scientific experiments, but through what?

    Science makes mistakes. Once anything is doubtful why use it as a source in this context? Perhaps on this issue science has no say.

    It is quite hilarious to think that when the Muslims used Islam in their lives they made many discoveries including the spherical nature of the earth when many who lived on earth thought it was flat!

    Many people also flooded into Islam when they saw its 100% application in life.

    Ain’t that saying something!

  141. Thanks mrsB,

  142. Ibrahim, I lack the patience to deal with such abysmally silly and stupid ”proofs” for one of more invisible skydaddies and magic. I have the greatest respect for people like Matt Dillahunty of the Atheist Experience (another set of videos you should watch) who can actually bend down low enough to explain stuff to cretins who come up with these sets of nonsensical ”proofs”.
    I do not posses this angelic level of patience.

    Please watch this series of you tube videos and then come back,

    And watch this series too before you come back:

  143. Haha it was quite funny!

    And an interesting escape clause.

    One can go on thinking that matter is eternal if one likes.

    At the end of the day, we reap what we sow:)

  144. Ibrahim, I mean it. your list of creationist and (Christian) apologetic arguments is so Stupid that I really cannot deal with it. It’s so dumb that I cannot muster the patience.
    I really can’t.
    You keep writing loooong brainless statements full of platitudes, you don’t respond to anybody in a normal way, you are just wasting space here shouting useless, senseless nonsense

  145. Perhaps so, but it is harder to live in denial when everything points to an unlimited eternal being as Creator. Fulfillment is when you know with precision the purpose of life.
    How am I suddenly a Christian now?
    Because Muslims believe in Jesus, Moses and David does not make then Christians now does it?
    You can insult as much as you like. Sticks and stones aardvark sticks and stones:)

    Edited. Personal insults are not allowed. If you do it again you will be put into moderation.
    Please keep on topic or your comments will be edited.

  146. Oops sorry about the typo Aafke-Art.

  147. Which typo Ibrahim? I didn’t see any typos in your comment?
    I mentioned Christians because a lot of your inane ”proofs” are taken straight from Christian apologetic nonsensical ”arguments” for the ”proof” of god, which they always assume is their god.

  148. Never mind.

    I can understand being hammered with nonsensical arguments that lead you to the bible. Is it possible though that this is the first time you’ve heard arguments from a Muslim point if view such as this?
    I’m not as eloquent as thisr in your videos but I must say that it is worth taking the time some day putting my argument aside and yours and ask how things come from nothing when they cannot in themselves be able to initiate themselves into being.

    I’m not arguing with you but merely pointing out since thinking requires information.

    Rational thinking is the basis for thinking.

    Think about it:) by ration I mean sensing something and linking it to its appropriate information. Without sensing reality we cannot think.
    The inability to sense the creator should not make you doubtful but reassure.

    A person who holds a cow as sacred for instance has sensed his creator so to speak.

    Incidentally Lama’s dad was a drug addict and when he gave up drugs he was brought on TV to explain how he did it. He is neither a shake nor a ‘scholar’. Not an excuse for his crime.

    A far cry from the ‘holier than thou’ image that was painted if him by the media. Source Arabic Newspapers and media.

    Interesting the timing of the info regarding him.

    Like I said in the first post above. Inexcusable and he must be PUNISHED.

    Do you have any kids Aafke-Art?

    How would you feel after sheltering them, feeding them, loving them, and they finally grow up and say ‘You’re not our dad or mum’?

    Something to think about…;(

  149. Please keep on topic: The abuse and murder of Lama, and her father/murderer getting a lenient sentence.
    Any other discussion should be taken to the debate page.
    Comments not related to this post will be removed.

    On another note:
    The spam monster is active again, if your comments do not show up let us know and we will try to find them.


  150. Also Lama’s murderer didn’t get a lenient sentence. He is still in prison since his arrest and now awaiting judgement.

  151. Chop the guys genitals, his hands, his eyes!

  152. This men should be hang death !! Hw could he rape his own daughter
    .even animal does not behave like that .Saudis need change laws give women girls right!!

  153. I wonder what happend to the ” father” of Lama. there should be a new trial or not ….or are they useing the time so everybody forgets?????

  154. It’s unlikely the general public would really know.

    On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 5:33 PM, American Bedu

  155. Everyone.. read the link below to read the true story.. you will understand the real face of the hypocrite media..

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