Saudi Arabia: Marriage with a Money Back Guarantee?

money-back-guarantee

oneindiashopping.com

 

A story which appeared in the PanArabia Enquirer has all the ingredients and makings of a “Tash ma Tash” episode, which is an all time favorite comedy show that airs during Ramadan in Saudi Arabia.

A 90 year old man from Jizan Province decided to divorce his 14 year old wife because they did not share similar interests.  Apparently during maher (bride money) negotiations and discussions of the arranged marriage with the bride’s parents, the man was assured that his new wife would enjoy and share the same interests as the man.  With their assurances, the man paid the family the equivalent of US$20,000 and the marriage took place.

typical teenager

community.sparknotes.com

 

Initially the marriage was great.  The groom readily admitting he enjoyed showing off his new wife.  However, the wedding bliss faded shortly thereafter.  The bride did not want to sit and listen to classic singers like Umm Kulthum or Fairuz or “potter” in the garden with her husband.  She was more interested in messaging with friends on Facebook, painting her shoes with glitter and putting up her favorite posters on their bedroom wall.  The groom had no choice but to divorce her due to irreconcilable differences.

Now he is seeking back the mehar that he had given to the bride’s family.  According to the groom, the marriage contract had an agreement that if the marriage did not last for more than six months he could receive his money back.

Since when does any marriage come with a money-back guarantee?  But more importantly, this is another case which highlights the need for regulation on the ages of couples who marry in Saudi Arabia.  The bride’s actions illustrate that she is just a young teenager and not prepared for married life, let alone a man old enough to be her grandfather or great-grandfather.  I am assessing that the bride’s parents were overcome by greed to allow their young daughter to marry a man so much her elder.

What happens now to the young woman?  Will she be warmly received back into her family’s arms after they have had to return the bridal money?  Will she be able to find future happiness?  Will she have the chance to marry a young man closer to her in age and interests or now that she is a divorcee and no longer a virgin, will she only be viewed as “second, third or fourth” wife material now?

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137 Responses

  1. You do realize that is a satire website, right?

  2. Terrible situation for any young girl, but at least report the info correctly. Jizan, a small village where most are uneducated, a couple married their 14 year old to an 86 year old man. The marriage was not consummated, and the Saudi Human Rights group defended the girl and the marriage was annulled, by law a girl must be at least 16 to 18, with her permission. The girl kept the money.

  3. Of course Carol knows this, it’s been all over and we’ve been laughing about it for weeks. The whole site is hilarious!

  4. Sick, what the hell that 90 years old man will do by marrying? And such such a sick greed for money by the parents of the gal? And how such marriage happend….. just can’t imagine.

  5. The topic though is worth a discussion about marriage and whether or not one should expect any guarantees one way or another.

    On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 4:41 PM, American Bedu

  6. @Norma and others
    This is not a NIKAH. Nikah should not have any such Money back Guarantees. This is not a MAHER and groom can not claim back.
    This marriage is not according to ISLAMIC DECREE. So it is Nul and void as it has never taken place.Bride (woman) can obtain a fatawa.
    Moreover Quran says to the Groom “do not Take back any thing you have given to the weded wife when you divorse her.”
    The girls parents are greedy or they are not educated. So far as the loss of virginity is concerned it is a separate topic.
    May Allah guide us all.

  7. This came from a satirical website!
    It’s the Middle East ”Onion”.
    It’s brilliant, make sure you read their other articles.
    http://www.­panarabiaenquire­r.­com

  8. Any 90 year old foolish enough to marry a 14 year old should know she won’t want to sit around and listen to music with him. Silly.

  9. Hehe this is funny! Funny in the sense that a 90 year old expects a 14 year old to share interest. my 17 year old brother and i have no mutual interest at all so how could they expect any. If this was a real case it would be tragic! but as it turns out, its a spoof.

  10. It’s a spoof…anything from Onion Magazine.

  11. Disregarding the incredible age difference… The dowry money on divorce is the wife’s right to keep by Islamic law, unless it is she who divorces the husband.

  12. Actually it is still hers when she instigates a divorce. As I understand it the Quran merely advises that if a woman divorces her husband and she is very rich, and he is poor, it would be nice if she returns the mahr.

    There should be no reason to force a woman to give back the mahr. After all, in sharia, mahr is money for sexual pleasure, the woman has provided the sex for the man so she has earned her money. I would think it’s denigrating to require her to give back the money she has earned by providing sexual pleasure to the man.

  13. Returning the maher is with the understanding that sex did not take place. The marriage was not consumated. So once again, proof that the money (gift) is for sexual access…if no access then please return the money as a righteous act.

  14. @ Coolred38 of March 7
    Do you think that Maher is supposed to be paid for every sex session or once for life?
    Please think again.

  15. So once again, proof that the money (gift) is for sexual access
    ———————————————————————
    @ Coolred38,
    Please stop spreading false rumour. Too much hatred is not good for health. U will become wrinkled, withered.

  16. You guys are funny.

    Azad, why is that considered hateful?

    Sami, nobody said it had to be paid every time.

  17. Sami is just describing his experiences. 🙂

  18. Azad, why is that considered hateful?
    ——————————————–
    I request it to get this reply from urself. U will find if u look deeply in ur heart.

  19. @coolred March7
    You said ” SAMI, nobody said it had to be paid every time”. Then what is Mehr? Is it for sex? Or some thing else Please think and you will get the answer.

  20. Sami, if you bothered to read, especially about your chosen religion and it’s immoral law system, then you would not have to bother people on blogs.
    You would know.

  21. @ Aafke-Art of 8 March
    Thank you, Madam. I take your advice that if i marry at 90 I don’t have to pay Maher.

  22. I ahve no idea what you are reading but it is not my comments.
    (not your own magic books)
    I will explain it to you for the last time:
    What your religion says, is: A man pays a dowry/mahr on marrying a woman. This payment is, according to your religious scholars and Sharia payment for sexual pleasure.

    For the rest of the marriage the woman has to provide sex whenever the man wants, and her children are his property. In return the man pays for the woman’s living expenses.
    So the wife gets paid only once, and her children are taken away from her if the husbands discards her which he can do at any time.
    As well as marry other wives and rape as many slaves as he can buy.
    That’s why some people equate Islamic marriage to sexual slavery for women.

    Now if you come back with more obtuse, asinine, and inane nitwitted remarks I will know you did not read my comment (again) and I will consider you a troll.

  23. Sami, if you bothered to read, especially about your chosen religion and it’s immoral law system, then you would not have to bother people on blogs. You would know.
    ——————————————————
    Why are u so interested in other’s system and morality, why not clease ur own house and concentrate in ur own morality and ask what u are doing? If u cant check ur own morality, its none of ur business to talk about other’s morality, u are not forced to follow any system.

  24. For now. My problem is that believers can never let other people alone. You can believe what you want. You should be free to do so. But you will not let other people believe what they want. you want to force other people to follow your silly rules. (as do other religions)
    The immorality and wickedness of your religion will spoil other people’s lives.

    Like old men having sex with little girls under the guise of marriage because Mohammed gave the example. The lives of those little girls are ruined.
    Muslim people will harass and attack women when they are in the majority, if those women do not follow their silly, unhealthy and wicked rules. Not only in Muslim countries, but everywhere Muslims are in the majority.

    This is what bothers me. A man made religion which denigrates women. Which does not protect women and children and protects and condones crimes against them when committed by men.
    A religion which tells men to beat ”their” women.
    Resulting an a disproportionate percentage of battered Muslim women hiding in European shelters.
    The fact that in Islamic law a marriage is very close to some sort of bonded prostitution deal. And that many women suffer because of that. That is what bothers me.
    Immorality and injustice bothers me.

  25. Immorality & wickedness? Turn ur fingers towards u and ask. Criminals will do any crime even if there is no religion, they will just seek excuse to justify their crime. Ur life is full of confusion. I can reply each and every point u raised but I dont like to waste time with like of u who are already brainwashed to hate. For people like u, ask these women.

    Watch till end, I am sure at the end, u will end up with 2 result – turn to a normal person from Islamophobic or end up with diarrhea due extreme jealousy and hatred.

  26. Azad Ali Shah, on March 8, 2013 at 6:14 pm said: For people like u, ask these women. Watch till end, I am sure at the end, u will end up with 2 result – turn to a normal person from Islamophobic or end up with diarrhea due extreme jealousy and hatred.

    Azad,

    Some myopic people like you have a tendency to excite themselves with their narrow and ignorant understanding that this person or that person converted to Islam. Islamic websites, in the not too distant past, have advertized Neil Armstrong and Michael Jackson among many others who converted to Islam; couple of weeks ago, Islamic blogsphere was busy circulating and highlighting that Pope had converted to Islam. Of course, all these turned out to be fake/false conversions and pure rumour mongering.

    I am sorry, but, what difference does all these conversions make anyway? What do you expect from others by such videos that you put out? What if the whole world converted to Islam tomorrow? Would it make any difference to and/or contribute to humanity? I would say definitely NOT, except more beheadings, mayhem, subjugation of women, etc etc!

    Azad, all religions in general and Islam in particular have been turned into vicious tools of slavery & subjugation. There is nothing I know of for anybody from outside the fold of Islam to come in this Crazy Islam, as it is practiced today. They should be happy wherever they are, but, just become better humans as per universal humanitarian commands of all the skydaddies. That is all the skydaddies demand. No more and No less.

    Just a few oozing thoughts :)-

  27. Just a few oozing thoughts? Thought for gutter, open ur myopic eyes and see the video, its not Islamic site but BBC. Im sure u are aware of BBC? Its not about conversion but it contains answers of her questions and I dont like to do blah blah like u do and so I want to give short reply. I dont have much time to do blah blah. Be a good listener, attentive to others before u hit ur key board. U also see, I challenge same with u, become normal good listener without judgment or u will end up with constipation at the end of the video. Dont like accept truth, not even ready to see truth but blah blah out of hatred

  28. @Azad Ali Shah,

    Way too much anger. I do not think you represent Muslims well. No logic or even any discussion on the topic. Just constant attack on others that do not agree with you and present their idea. Every one that disagrees with Islam must be a hater blah, blah blah.

    Islam is an idea. All ideas are subject to scrutiny. If you want to defend your idea have at it in a logical way. Calling others haters just reaffirms that you do not even understand your religion enough to defend it or it is just indefinably.

  29. azah:

    Most converts leave the reiigion within three years until then they are gang busters and go to the extremes often times.

    For the most part people who convert do so for the fade of the day and it later fades away to some other fade of the day.

  30. MoQ,
    What is the point of round and round and circling discussions? Same thing comes up. And I am fed up islamophobia and its wrong propaganda. Yes internet has stolen my softness. 98% of world crime is done by non-Muslims, every now and day bombing in Ireland but all point to 99.999% innocent Muslims and they stick to 0.0001% culprits. No one segragate criminals from Islam when he happens to be Muslim but other relgion doesnt come to picture when he is found to be Hindu, Christians, Budhists who all had history of killings. Its media and arrogant people who make this propaganda. U will say No, I will say YEs, u will say Yes, I will say NO ..this is what has been going on this forum..never ending discussion and so, I showed BBC video and still called me names with assumtions before watching.

    Yes, I again say I have lost wat I was due to a lot of hateful interactions in internet world and I want to go back to my past.

    Big stick, its ur opinion and do some research.

  31. FREEDOM OF RELIGION:
    a) I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship.
    And I will not worship that which you have been wont to worship, Nor will you
    worship that which I worship, So you be your Way, and to me mine.(Quran: 109:1-6)

    b) Let there be no compulsion in religion(Quran: 2:256)

    Dont attack what I follow, I wont attack what u believe. Attack criminals not his faith. Dont use low level words to my faith, learn some morals, dont hurt others.

  32. @Ali,

    “What is the point of round and round and circling discussions? ”

    You know you have an option of shutting your computer down and not reading. Instead you choose to be an angry person.

    “98% of world crime is done by non-Muslims, every now and day bombing in Ireland but all point to 99.999% innocent Muslims and they stick to 0.0001% culprits.”

    And what is the source of those statistics? or did you just make it up (whenever I see lots of 9’s I get suspicious about the source of numbers)

    ” I showed BBC video and still called me names with assumtions before watching.”

    Hmmmmm, from what I see, you’re the only one calling others names. It seems you may have some kind of issue that you need to deal with, don’t you think?

  33. @Azad Ali Shah,

    But we debunked all of these rosy picture verses you’re referring to. Simplest one is your prophet destroying all the idols when he entered Mecca. Kicking all none Muslims for Arabia, etc. Not the picture of religious tolerance, do you think?

    “Dont attack what I follow, I wont attack what u believe.”

    As long as it is an idea, it is subject to scrutiny. Learn to live with it. We will not be subject to your ridiculous demand. It is called freedom of expression. One of our most basic rights.

  34. And what is the source of those statistics? or did you just make it up (whenever I see lots of 9′s I get suspicious about the source of numbers)
    ————————————————-
    Without much argument, have a look and analyse big lie that “All terrorists are Muslims”:

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

    U will see 9s here. Hard to belive?

  35. But we debunked all of these rosy picture verses you’re referring to. Simplest one is your prophet destroying all the idols when he entered Mecca. Kicking all none Muslims for Arabia, etc. Not the picture of religious tolerance, do you think?
    ———————————————————————
    What first tell me what do u think when Muhammad PBUH him was kicked out from his birth place Makka, he was tortured, his followers were murdered torutured and they had to go to Medina?

    Who built Kaaba? Who put idols there? Was Kabaa built by idol worshippers?

    Kicking all non-Muslims, its manipulation of Islamophobia. Prophet Muhammad’s own uncle Abu Talib remained as non-Muslims, if he was not forced, then who can be forced? Let’s not manipulate things based on lies spread by false media. Islam was spread by peace but surely Islam allows self defence without breaking agreement, transgression. After all u will stick to ur own, no matter what is reality.

    Islam may be idea for u but not for we Muslims, its law of Allah and we dont need people’s scrutiny over creator. Isnt it rediculos u are doing scrutiny that its none of followers is going to accept?

    Attacking some’s belief, using dirty, hateful word is Freedom of speech? What is “hate” speech? Have a look in the above video for respect for religion, wat u will call it?

  36. @Azad Ali Shah,

    Yes it is hard to believe, because the author of the article is tricking you with numbers. They are reporting incidents like someone lighting a car on fire and counting it as equivalent to an attack like 911.

    Dude look around you, there is no week that goes by where you do not have Muslims blowing up other Muslims in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

    Muslims have a problem with violence. The sooner you and other Muslims get your heads out of the sand and address the issue the better it will be for you. It is a more productive way to address the issues than calling everyone an Islamophobe.

    Wake up!!!

  37. MoQ, Let me challenge u one thing. No matter how much human tell lies, how much scrutiny humans do, “Islam” – the way of life commanded by Allah will be there always without CHANGE. More scrutiny u do, more people will accept this truth. That’s happening in the world and that happend in past. Maximum Islamic public speakers today are reverted from hard core christianity or well established in life – from former Christian Minister Yusu Estes, Abdul Raheem Green, British ex PM Tony Blair’s Journalist sis in law -Laura Booth, Hollywood actress Myriam Francois-Cerrah…endless dots to join. These are not ignorant people. They had already done scrutiny of ISLAM.

    Well I really dont like to write long long without ending argument but prefer to reply with evidence to refute what u said – non-Muslims are murdered:

  38. @Ali,

    “he was tortured, his followers were murdered”

    Do you really know your religion? Your comment is full of bad facts. The prophet was not tortured in Mecca. And who of his followers was murdered, name please?

    “Who built Kaaba? Who put idols there? Was Kabaa built by idol worshippers?”

    The idol worshipers certainly thought it was a place for their idol. How come your religious tolerant prophet did not let them worship?

    So basically you’re telling us, Islam is religiously tolerant only of others leave their religions. Brilliant!!!

    “Isnt it rediculos u are doing scrutiny that its none of followers is going to accept?”

    Hmm, what part of freedom of speech you did not get. The idea is a person is free to say what he/she likes without regard if someone else likes it.

    “What is “hate” speech? ”

    Even hate speech is tolerated under freedom of speech. But assuming that criticising religions is hate speech is inaccurate. Hate speech relates to discrimination against a group. Arguing against ideas is not.

  39. Dude look around you, there is no week that goes by where you do not have Muslims blowing up other Muslims in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.
    ————————————————————-
    Dude, u wake up. These countries were peaceful when external peace lovers landed in these lands for opportunity through bombing from sky. Same Afghanistan, pakistan is done by Taliban, Al-Qaida created by who? US world’s terrorist creator, millions murderer.

    Iraq? It was one of the civilised society called Mesapotamia, who destroyed it? US for oil. Wake up. Stop landing in other’s place with missile, bomb by killing millions. Have u heard speech of US army who said US army is terrorist not Iraqis who fight for freedom? U dont like to see that right? Wake up dont live in deniel. The day US stops mingling in other’s matter, terrorism will not be there in the world becoz they are the bomber in disguise, they are creator of terrorists, they call freedom fighter terrorists:

    U talk of Iraq? See what US army says who they spread terror:

    1) http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=214616182010493&set=vb.239983426107165&type=2&theater

    2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6hp8HMstkE

    Tell me who is real terrorist?

  40. Yes it is hard to believe, because the author of the article is tricking you with numbers. They are reporting incidents like someone lighting a car on fire and counting it as equivalent to an attack like 911
    ———————————————————
    Do u see biggest example of living in Denial? Its not some tom dick hary author but European Union’s report. U even haven’t read the report from direct source. Read it, ur opion is not stronger than report of EU.

    I WAS MONSTER WHO SPREAD TERRORISM IN IRAQ WITH LICENSE BY KILLING INNOCENTS: US SOLDIER:

    Please keep ur argument over all these facts. I dont have much time.

  41. So your evidence is a video by Dr Naik. A man who claimed that eating Pig’s meat makes you want other men to sleep with your wife. Hence a tolerant man, when it comes about speaking of Christians 😉 Another Brilliant move by you!!!

    By the way you also buy into the propaganda they feed you that people are converting to Islam in droves. Actually Christians are beating you in Africa. Not something I like by the way, but just bringing it up because you guys are fed misinformation all the time and you do not even think critically to understand that.

    The good news is Atheists and none religious are beating both. And we do not even have missionaries, people just realize that they were duped through simple debates and abandon the myth.

  42. Dude look around you, there is no week that goes by where you do not have Muslims blowing up other Muslims in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.
    ————————————————————-
    Dude, u wake up. These countries were peaceful when external peace lovers landed in these lands for opportunity through bombing from sky. Same Afghanistan, pakistan is done by Taliban, Al-Qaida created by who? US world’s terrorist creator, millions murderer.

    Iraq? It was one of the civilised society called Mesapotamia, who destroyed it? US for oil. Wake up. Stop landing in other’s place with missile, bomb by killing millions. Have u heard speech of US army who said US army is terrorist not Iraqis who fight for freedom? U dont like to see that right? Wake up dont live in deniel. The day US stops mingling in other’s matter, terrorism will not be there in the world becoz they are the bomber in disguise, they are creator of terrorists, they call freedom fighter US terrorism terrorists.

  43. @Ali,

    “Do u see biggest example of living in Denial?”

    Why do you assume that we or I support or supported any of these wars. What is your point. I agree that the US should not have went to Iraq or Afghanistan.
    So now you want to build a strawman then attack it. You are living in your own world that you built up about how other people think. You will always win your made up debates that way, isn’t it? Brilliant!!

  44. A man who claimed that eating Pig’s meat makes you want other men to sleep with your wife
    ——————————————————————-
    Dont beat around the bush. Dont bring what he said or what he ALL said, stick to the topic and what’s wrong abt his reply in THIS topic.

    U dnt reply who built Kaaba? Who started putting idol in it and how?
    If u speak against taking out idol from Kabaa, Speak against massacring Muslims from Spain. Spain shud be for Muslim if u say Kaaba was for idols. Its same example. Will u call Israel an Arab land for Arabs or Israles who were kicked out from around world and illegally captured Arab land with British policy? Things shud go to the owner and thief shud not claim ownership

  45. I agree that the US should not have went to Iraq or Afghanistan.
    ———————————————————————-
    U are talking like strawman but putting blame on others. U said muslim terrorism in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanisatan. Do u also agree that if US didnt create Taliban, Al-Qaida terrorists this world would have been free from terrorism? How do u blame Muslims instead of blame Terrorist creators?

  46. Actually Christians are beating you in Africa.
    ——————————————————————–
    Agreed, but u trying to hide urself the reason when u know it. Africa is poor region and christianity buy followers. But what is the reason millions converting in US, EUROPE? Are they afraid of Islamic sword? or Muslims give them money?

    Come something from BBC, CNN, see the report of conversion to Islam not Naik or islamic sites.

  47. @Ali,

    Do I realy have to correct everything you think.

    Let’s see countries in peace:

    Iraq: A decade long war with Iran killed 1,000,000 people. Killing own population with Gas. Followed, by an invasion of a neighbor. Decades of oppressing Shiiat who lost hundred of thousands through murder by the regime. Quite a peaceful place?

    Afghanistan: 2 decades of civil war. A regime that enforced Shariia laws that suffocated the population. There was no civil society left. That along with providing a home for terrorists and living of the cash from Heroin trade. Another peaceful place?

    I do not agree with the invasions, but calling these countries peaceful is a stretch.

  48. @Ali,
    I never said Muslims are terrorists. I say Islamic countries and Muslims have a problem with terrorism. Not every Muslim has to be a terrorist for a problem to exist.

  49. Do you really know your religion? Your comment is full of bad facts. The prophet was not tortured in Mecca. And who of his followers was murdered, name please?
    —————————————————————————–
    So, U mean Makkans cried & requested Prophet Muhammad not leave his birth place but he left his birth place Macca and shifted to Medina for holiday without reason? He went for holiday and died in Medina? What is the logic? Why he and his companions hide in cave and worshipped secretly? Why even after leaving Makka they folllowed and attacked Muhammad PBUH and his followers? Really aren’t u aware of all these? It was not holiday dude but kicked out of Makka.

  50. I never said Muslims are terrorists. I say Islamic countries and Muslims have a problem with terrorism.
    ——————————————————————–
    If say this also its wrong. This so called Islamic terrorism was heard suddenly after US’s attack in Gulf and other countries by killing millions of innocents when Islam has been since centuries. U shud blame terrorist creator & financier – US. World’s first child, women suicide bomber was not from Islam but LTTE terrorists, find out which religion they belong to but no one tag LTTE terroirst with their relgion. Common people are forced to believe the lies written in media.

  51. Do I realy have to correct everything you think.

    Let’s see countries in peace:
    ————————————————-
    MoQ, Corrent they way u see. Which country is free from civil war? u talked about terrorism & I am talking abt terrorism not civil war. yeah really peaceful? Where are original inhabitants Red Indians ? What happened to millions of innocents in Vietnam? Is there role of Muslims in this? Who conquered Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, Lebanon, Plestine and killed Millions? Terrorist Ku Klux Klan white supermacy and killings? Who are talking abt peace & terrorism?

  52. @Ali,

    I can give you many reasons why he left Mecca. But this all started with you saying that Islam is tolerant, when your prophet destroyed idols and kicked all none Muslims out of Arabia. How can you say he is tolerant of other religions with that history?

  53. @Ali,

    Your last argument about Native Indians, KKK, etc. is a stawman, because none of these are positions I support. Again, You just want to win an argument, so you build a strawman then beat it up LOL

  54. MoQ,
    U are running for topic and rounding rounding. Who kicked out who? Who built Kaaba and for what purpose? How u say that its for idol worshippers? Taking back my things from thief is not crime that too without blood bath. When Muhammad PBUH was so powrful, he forgave everyone. Sufian said once, “Muhammad has has biggest weapon, his weapon is to win enemy’s heart”.

    Yes, I say Islam allows self-defence & protection of dignity without transgression & but protect enemy if they agree for peace. I wont say it, as u will say I argue, lets hear from Ex-Hollywood actress, what she says about Muhammad PBUH:

    These intellect did a lot of research, they are not straw man. Note that he is greatest man ever born and will be in world.

  55. Your last argument about Native Indians, KKK, etc. is a stawman, because none of these are positions I support
    —————————————————————————
    Stawman, strawman,why u deny that u mixed Islam/Muslim with terrorism/violence and I replied? How can u mix Muslim/islam with violence/terrorism when u cant mix terrorist creators, mass murders with their nation/religion? U even denied EU’s report on terrorism 🙂

    I dnt know why u chose to skip my questions and reply selectively at whims.

  56. MoQ, I am sure historians, intellects, jounalist, Hollywood actress knows much more than key board worrior like us. Why shud I believe u more than Historians, known think tanks?

    Muhammad – The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History

    “Muhammad PBUH was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and SECULAR levels. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religous influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influentian single figure in human hisotry” – book by Michael H. Hart

    Lies will continue till end of world but truth will remains truth.

  57. “U are running for topic and rounding rounding. Who kicked out who? Who built Kaaba and for what purpose? How u say that its for idol worshippers?”

    You see this is exactly the type of argument that makes Islam not tolerant. You think because that your religion said Abraham build it, then others should also accept that position. Have you thought may be they thought their ancestors built it as their place of worship. Tolerance means you accept others rights. A tolerant Islam would have left others to worship also, like they did for centuries, not claim that the Kaaba was built only for Muslims.

    So you see Ali, you can tell yourself that you are tolerant and your religion is tolerant. But the fact is you have no idea what tolerance is. As exhibited by your questions above.

  58. “Muhammad – The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History”

    So was Hitler. And your point?

    And stop with the videos. You are just spamming the site. Your arguments are all over the place.

  59. Have you thought may be they thought their ancestors built it as their place of worship. Tolerance means you accept others rights.
    ————————————————————————————-
    U are misusing the meaning of “rights” & “tolerance”. Illegal occupancy is not right. Yes its place for worshiping God & it was built for it. Its God’s house. And all prophet came to spread message of God, so use it to worship God. Who deny it? Which idol worshiper prophet built Kaaba?

    According to ur argument, Do u agree that Muslims should rule Spain? Muslims shud be given their rights?

  60. So was Hitler. And your point?

    And stop with the videos. You are just spamming the site. Your arguments are all over the place.
    =================================
    Hitler was like Bush who had millions of supporters but never ever included them as most influential and secular human but hatemongers who didnt have principles.

    U deny my points, u deny my evidence, u deny historians, Hollywood actress, Journalists but give emphasis to ur hollow arguments. These videos gives analysis with evidence that ur intellect cant reach.

    Regarding Kaaba & tolerance: Society, morality, friend circle, siblings dont allow me to MISUSE my father’s earning in gambling, drugs, prostitution just becoz I am using my own ancestor/father’s money. My father also dont allow it to misuse his earnings & but advise me to use in right way. Like this a God’s house can’t be misused & u cant say call it “right”

  61. @Azad Ali Shah,

    “U deny my points, u deny my evidence, u deny historians, Hollywood actress, Journalists but give emphasis to ur hollow arguments. These videos gives analysis with evidence that ur intellect cant reach.”

    What evidence? I got lots of incoherent arguments. Like Mohammad was one of the most influential people in history. But then Hitler was named on that list. So i guess that is proof of prophesy LOL

    Your proof of tolerance of your religion is that everyone should accept your story that Kaaba was built by your god through another prophet. Hence, “my religion says so, so your religion is wrong and I have the right to exterminate it. But I still can claim religious tolerance” Isn’t that the definition of religious intolerance. Think for once!!!

    Almost every point you made (which were too many and scattered all over the map), were based on the wrong assumptions or wrong information. You even make simple errors in understanding your own Islamic history as it is presented by your own religion. As an example, not even the craziest Muslims claim that your prophet was tortured.

    Now for a video from me since you had so many. Having the conversation with you, I cannot help but imagine you being the same guy or someone like the guy in this video.

  62. MoQ, U can entertain but its not right place. U r beating around the bush when u dont have anything constructive to refute whatever points i said.

  63. What evidence? I got lots of incoherent arguments.

    —————————————————–

    When there is Arrogance, nothing will go into ur minds.
    If u dnt like to see video, then see:

    The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100:_A_Ranking_of_the_Most_Influential_Persons_in_History

    Accept the fact that these Historians are much more intellect and analytical than key board worriers.

  64. @Ali,

    At least you’re not so angry anymore 🙂

    Your evidence made me see the light. I am awe struck.

    Now can you say, Hammer Time!!!

  65. Bigstick can you please provide a back up before running your mouth about converts leaving Islam after three years. No don’t give some people here as evidence as they are not THE only converts to Islam.

    ‘ Dude look around you, there is no week that goes by where you do not have Muslims blowing up other Muslims in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.’

    The problem with this statement is that you’re talking about the people not the religion itself. A teacher have done her best to give guidelines to her students but if the students turn out wrong, the fault cannot be placed on the teacher.

    Next, Kaaba was built by Nabi Ibrahim as a house of monotheistic worship. It would only be the right thing to get rid of the traces of non monotheism, even the Muslim Meccans agreed with this decision and rededicate Kaaba to its true purpose. I am not surprised to see this event being twisted but the same critics of Islam never bothered to explain about the many many house of worships of other religions left untouched by Muslims.

    To the Dato, as a Malaysian you would be aware that beheading etc is not common in our Islamic country. Take you for example, an atheist, you still have your head nicely sitting above your neck. And we do have so many examples of religious tolerance here as well as other countries. Yes thee are a few exceptional occurrence that shows otherwise but I don’t hear anyone hehe complaining about religious intolerance in France etc. You said France has the rights to disrupt freedom of religious practice. With that logic, if some rulings by some Islamic country appears to hinder certain practices from being widespread, well hey, you’re Ok with France discrimination practices.

  66. it is easier to be a Christian or Buddhist etc in say UAE, Malaysia, Turkey, in fact all other Islamic countries except KSA than for a Muslim to live in Europe for the regulations in most if not all European countries are very discouraging. Hijab, racial profiling, difficulty with the construction of mosques etc are just a few problematic ares Muslims have to deal with with Europes’s discriminatory practices. But in line with TRUE Islamic teaching, you can easily find a church and a mosque standing side by side in most Muslim countries. I am aware that some Muslims aren’t very accommodating towards other people of different faiths buy hey, Islam has no part in it. Islam is not an idea, it is a religion that covers every life aspect but it is up to you to apply it or not. It is a gift from God. You said it’s an idea, I said nay! As for Mahr being money for sex, after giving a lot of my precious time trying to explain that to you, all I can say is if you have not been given a gift from your husband too bad. No its not about payment of sex, or I’d be a millionaire by now. It’s just difficult to understand something you clearly have invested major hostility towards the subject.

  67. There is absolutely no historical or archaeological proof that the kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismael.
    The kaaba was probably originlly built to worship the Great Goddess. The black stone from the heaven, a stream in the desert, all ideal for ancient Great Goddess worship. Black stones were worshiped and dedicated to The great Goddess all over the world. Later on when people made up more gods the kaaba became home to 360 gods.

    The worship of stones is very common in ancient times.
    For example, on Cyprus there was another black stone which was still venerated in the time of the Romans and Greeks and dedicated to the Goddess Aphrodite.
    The Nabateans, an important Arabic culture before Mohammed came along, used to worship their gods as stones raised on a platform.
    There were other Kaaba’s with stones which were objects of worship.
    Ghaiman had a red stone and the Ka’ba of al-‘Abalat (near Tabala) had a white stone.

    Later on, when Mohammed decided to incorporate the Kaaba and it’s money making pilgrimage into his new religion he send out his men to destroy the other kaaba’s. (Mohammed first had his eyes set on Jerusalem, when he realized taking over Jerusalem was not going to happen he chose Mecca instead)
    Another proof of tolerance.

    The Kaaba used to be ministered by seven priestesses, Mohammed had them replaced by seven men. The rituals still performed there are pagan in origin, and have been performed by pilgrims for centuries before Mohammed invented Islam.
    There are historical and archaeological proofs that Mecca was an important pilgrimage site for at least 450 years before Mohammed came along.

  68. Even Christian and Jews would agree that Kaaba was built by Nabi Ibrahim, not idolaters. The problem with Moq’s argument is that in order for Islam to be considered tolerant, it should remain quiet, private and deprived from the public. If Islam was to claim Kaaba then Islam is intolerant. If Palestinians wanted to reclaim their land from the Israelis, I suppose you’d take that as intolerance too? I guess Malaysian were pretty intolerant to convert many British camps and offices into their own residential lands after kicking the colonial from their land. They even destroyed the Union Jack for their own flag. Talk about intolerance.

  69. There is absolutely no historical or archaeological proof that the kaaba was built by Abraham and Ismael.
    The kaaba was probably originlly built to worship the Great Goddess

    So we are suppose to go on your ‘probably’ claim instead of all the historical proofs written in three major holy books? Aside from the Quran, Bible and Torah..the Samaritan literature also backs up this event. Muslims are aware that there were other religions using the kaaba, you know. Its just that Muslims also knew that it was rebuilt by Nabi Ibrahim and his son.

  70. The use of logic and our knowledge of archaeology. There have been archaeological things found at the Kaaba, although anything which would be uncovered today which would not support the modern superstitions about the Kaaba would be destroyed instantly by the Saudis.
    Anyway, The Kaaba is old. Really old, and pre-dates the arrival of monotheism in the area. Also, we know that these stones were at first dedicated to the Great Goddess in other places. This was a common theme in ancient religion. We know all religions started off with a ”great Goddess” After which other gods get added and you get a pantheon.
    And then the Jews discarded their other gods in favor for their wargod Yahweh.
    The Abrahamic magic books are not scientific or archaeological proof. They were written, and re-written, and edited to support their own claims.

    On a different matter:
    I find the term ”idolaters” offensive.
    These people had deeply held believes, no less valid than other people’s believes. One superstition is as good as the next. Except that I like religions with multiple gods a lot better than religions based on the Jewish war god Yahweh, ea Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    People who believe in 360 gods usually dont have a problem adding a number 361.
    It’s because the wargod Yahweh is such a selfish prig that we now have these religions who are selfish, exclusive, and aggressive towards everybody outside their own form of superstition.
    The inhabitants of mecca did not forbid the Muslims to follow the rituals in the kaaba, but Mohammed had everybody outside of his own new religion thrown out. That’s how far his ”tolerance” went.

    Why didn’t he built his own brand new center of worship? And let the other people have their own religion and practice their own gods? If he was so very tolerant.
    Which he clearly wasn’t.
    He wanted total control, and taking away this money making pilgrimage site from the Meccans, (After he realized he would not get to Jerusalem), and adding their pagan rituals to his newly invented religion was useful to Mo.

  71. Mohammed made this tale up to justify taking over the Kaaba, by claiming it was originally built by Abraham and Ismael.

    From Bukhari:
    narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was built first?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Haram.” I asked, “Which (was built) next?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem).” I asked, “What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.

    Which is wrong. We know that it was Solomon who built the temple in Jerusalem. Somewhere around 955 BC. Ismael and Abraham were long dead by then.

    And Mohammed even thought of destroying the kaaba alltogether according to ha hadith from Aisha in Bukhari.
    It’s pure pragmatism which made him change his mind and decide to retain the cult, the rituals and the kaaba.
    Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, “Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka’ba?” I replied, “She told me that once the Prophet said, ‘O ‘Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka’ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit.” Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.

    The goddess Allat was worshiped in the form of a rectangular stone and had a building around it in Taif. I suppose that’s one of the kaabas Mohammed had destroyed.
    The black stone kissed by Muslims today was one of many in the Kaaba and the only one Mohammed retained.

  72. The black stone of the Goddess Aphrodite:

  73. The sacred stone of Emesa, still worshiped in Roman times:

  74. A Nabatean stone, inbetween a standing stone and a sculpture, of the goddess Al-Uzza. This was one of the main Goddesses worshipped at the Kaaba in Mecca. Underneath the typical Nabatean writing. The Arabic script of today is based on Nabatean cursive script.

  75. I really think that calling the devotees of the earlier religions ”idolaters” is a sign of disdain towards people who just happened to believe some other form of superstition.

    And what is the difference really? The people before Islam revered stones, the Muslim revere one stone. The earlier religions revered and prayed towards the Kaaba, the Muslims now do the same. The earlier believers circled seven times around the Kaaba, the muslims today still do the same. The earlier religious wore white pieces of cloth, the Musims wear the same.
    The only difference I can see is that the pre-Islamic believers believed in many gods, and had many stones. Muslims believe in one god and have one stone.
    The pre-Islamic believers were tolerant and open, the Muslims became intolerant and exclusive, and kicked everybody else out, and destroyed other places of worship.
    The earlier religions had many important goddesses, and 7 priestesses took care of the kaaba. Islam has only one male god and replaced the female priestesses with men. In a goddess religion women always are respected and important. In patriarchal Abrahamic religions women are considered deficient and chattel. Subservient to men.

    Regarding all this I come to the conclusion that the earlier beliefs centered around the Kaaba were superior to Islam. And Muslims have no right to speak with disdain of the religions based in Arabia before Islam.

  76. I find the term ”idolaters” offensive.
    These people had deeply held believes, no less valid than other people’s believes. One superstition is as good as the next. Except that I like religions with multiple gods a lot better than religions based on the Jewish war god Yahweh, ea Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    You are one to talk. Aren’t you the one who talk with disdain by calling sky daddies and the rest of the garbage you use to look down or disdainfully upon others belief? Pah, where did this sudden care about respecting religion came from? or is it another tactic to divert from your own faults? You’re the last person to talk about this since you’ve never respected anyone religion and rejoice in insulting people’s God.

    And I love how you use the word ‘We’ to make your claim sound more solid.

  77. And when you make claims such as ‘ Islam has only one MALE God’ then your credibility to critic and di scuss Islam goes down the drain. This isn’t the religion of Greek whereby they have male and female gods. We Muslims have one God.

  78. And it is not insulting to call people who worship idols as idolater as according to Merriam Webster
    Variant(s): or idol·a·tor \ī-ˈdä-lə-tər\Function: nounDate: 14th century
    1 : a worshiper of idols
     2 : a person that admires intensely and often blindly one that is not usually a subject of worship.

    However it is insulting to call God as sky daddies since there is not such word in any dictionary. It was just invented by insecure individuals who had to look for a way to display their loath for people’s belief. But we got over it, say sky daddies as much as you need, doesn’t make us less faithful. By the way the word Allah has no gender. It falls under Masculine Majazi not Masculine Haqiqi.

  79. Mrs. B:

    It is not insulting to call God a sky daddy as God doesn’t exist. Who do you insult? A nothing.

    In addition the name “allah” was another god that was worshipped at the same time as the goddesses and was male with sexuality as he had daughters.

  80. “instead of all the historical proofs written in three major holy books? Aside from the Quran, Bible and Torah.”

    Surely you jest. What historical proofs are in any of them that matter or change anything? So much has been proven wrong about those 3 books that getting something right is probably accidental rather than divine.

  81. @MrsB,

    “The problem with Moq’s argument is that in order for Islam to be considered tolerant, it should remain quiet, private and deprived from the public. If Islam was to claim Kaaba then Islam is intolerant. If Palestinians wanted to reclaim their land from the Israelis, I suppose you’d take that as intolerance too?”

    On the first sentence: Yes, if one religion claims a place as exclusively theirs at the expanse of other religions which exists, then its followers proceed to eliminate all traces of the other religions, then that is the definition of religious intolerance. Full stop, period, etc. If you do not understand that, then you have no clue what tolerance means.

    On the second item, that is just an assumption of yours. In my writings here, I never supported the Israeli occupation of Plasticine. But like all the people on teh other side of this debate, you cannot help it but always building a strawman to argue against 🙂

  82. Sry about typo Palestine instead of Plasticine above.

  83. @MrsB,

    “To the Dato, as a Malaysian you would be aware that beheading etc is not common in our Islamic country. Take you for example, an atheist, you still have your head nicely sitting above your neck.”

    – How kind of you to acknowledge you should not CUT people’s heads for their lack of believe.

    – Malaysia has a secular system of law as a remnant of the occupation. It is not Shariia that rules the country. Which is exactly the point I tried to make here many times. The problem is not that Muslims are violent people naturally, they are like any people they have good and bad. However, when they start following their religious rules they can turn intolerant of others.

    Be very appreciative that you are living in a country which has logical modern Secular laws to create proved prosperity and harmony. Even more appreciative that your constitution held strong against Muslims trying to implement Shariia laws in some of provinces and over turned them in the federal court.

    It is Secular laws not Islam that makes Malaysia a better country than other Muslim countries.

  84. Was looking at the morning headlines, and here, once again, we see things like this
    Mob in Pakistan torches Christian homes
    http://news.yahoo.com/mob-pakistani-city-torches-christian-homes-110658171.html
    This right next to the latest bombings in Pakistan and Afghanistan , across the page from the mob violence in Egypt.

    Meanwhile, today the NY Times reports that “leading Muslim scholars from across the world — Indonesia, Britain, Pakistan — met in a modestly sized hotel conference room” in Istambul to discuss violence. The result? Quote: “This week’s conference culminated in a detailed and strongly worded resolution that reaffirmed Islam’s compatibility with universal human norms and called on religious institutions in Afghanistan, Pakistan and neighboring countries to end violence.The document will be circulated to more than 160,000 mosques in Afghanistan so that its findings may trickle into individual consciences there.”

    Trickle? Strong words? Trickle? How nice. Of course, the NYT reporter were told “not to identify participants without their permission for fear of reprisals”.

    It is the unending flow of facts and stories like this about Islam and Muslims what leaves me nauseated, particularly when time after time we see people that we assume are good moral intelligent people defend an ideology soaked with hate and violence. It is as if logic and facts mean nothing, only pure, blind, bigoted faith is true.

    These people will stand on a hill of abused, tortured and dead bodies to proclaim that “Islam is peace”

    So we see Muslims quoting videos and lists of the 100 most this or that in history as gospel, but the words in their own Quran and hadoith mean nothing. So when Mohammed himself says “I am made victorious with terror” it is irrelevant, yet some list made up 1300 years later is proof of divine inspiration.

    To us, non-Muslims, it is impossible to understand the Muslim mind. Our logic, our rules, our morality do not apply to Muslims, or to people like Mrs B. or Azad. If Mohammad kills hundreds or orders the expulsion of Christians and Jews from their homes is Arabia, that is marvelous and wonderful, peace be upon him and all that. If MOhamad laughs at a lady barbarically murdered for criticizing him, that is fine, if Mohammed slaps his bride or calls women evil and stupid, who cares — the only important thing is that non-Muslims not criticize Islam or condemn the actions of the man who did these terrible things (and much more).

    Even the simple fact that people like AA, MoQ, myself and others here would be put to death in a heartbeat in so many places where Islam dominates does not seem to bother Mrs B and Azad. It is surreal, almost beyond comprehension.

    To believe in islam is to take an oath to have no morals, no logic, no sense of equality or freedom of conscience. It is a commitment to ignore reality and facts. Belief is all, everything. Anything contrary to that belief is untrue and must be ignored or eliminated.

  85. Mrs. B:

    http://imamluqman.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/hello-world/

    So maybe on this thread you will tell me which book Will Durrant made that quote which you apparently cherry picked from his works. So which book was it?

  86. mrsB. The point in question is, what makes you better or more right than the earlier religions in Arabia?
    You do exactly the same things: You worship the same stone, you pray towards the same building, walk around the kaaba 7 times, wear the same white cloth, kiss the black stone. Where’s the difference?
    The whole thing is pagan.
    And why does it make your prophet better and ”tolerant” if he kicks everybody else out and only his cult is allowed to do the pagan rituals?

  87. I really want to get the answer for this question, why this Aafke art learned so much about Islam? I asked from you before, you did effort and took so much trouble of learning about Islam, kindly ask your questions from a good Muslim Scholar.
    What I understand from your comments, as you learned about Islam so you can state there are faults in Islam, be my guest. You ll get what you are looking for. I felt really sorry for you. You are jumping up and down and screaming with full powers its not the Sun is shining but it’s just a old bulb with very low power, keep saying it.
    I believe that there is no god but Allah al Mighty and Prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and prophet. Quran al Hakeem is the last and final message of Allah al Mighty for human kind. Prophet Muhammad is the best person ever walked on Earth. Islam is the best and final religion, way of life for humans till the day of judgement. I believe on His angels, I believe on His Books and on His Prophets. I believe on the day of judgment. I believe the destiny good or bad is from Allah al Mighty. I believe on afterlife.
    All the Muslims, what this Aafke art is saying has no meanings. What she is telling are big fat lies, very wrong translation and understanding of Islam. if she is really very sincere in finding the truth why she dosent ask her questions from a muslim scholar?
    Allah al Mighty, Prophet Muhmmad and Quran al Hakeem are the absolute truth. She is blind and deaf.

  88. I don’t understand why this Aafke art is so interested in Islam? I asked from her before you should ask your questions from a good Muslim Scholar. If you really are sincere in finding the truth why not ask it from the persons who has the knowledge?
    As I see if you are learning about Islam so you can state the faults, be my guest you ll find it what you are looking for. The mirror ll show how you are. You scream with all your powers that mirror is ugly, it’s just your reflection.
    I believe that there is no god but Allah al Mighty. Prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and prophet. Quran al Hakeem is the last and final message of Allah al Mighty for human kind. Islam is the best way of life for humans till the day of judgement. I believe on His angels, His books, His prophets. I believe on the Day of Judgment. I believe on that the destiny good or bad is from Allah al Mighty. I believe on the afterlife.
    Dear Mulsims, Aafke art is blind and deaf.
    We believe on just one Allah, our beloved Prophet Muhammad told and guided us.
    There is no god but Allah al Mighty. He wasn’t created by any one or any power, because if He can be created once, could have been done again and many times. if there were two or more gods, this universe couldn’t be going on one pattern but every god wants to run it as he likes. One would say the sun will rise from west and other ll say no, humans are too big mouth than their sizes, no sun for them for few days.
    Aafke art you interpretations and understanding about Islam is absolutely wrong and full of big fat lies.
    If you have one ounce of shame, ask your questions from a good known Muslim Scholar.

  89. Saima:

    Well there is an intelligent come back. That should prove allah exists……..Wow, I am stunned by the deflation.

  90. Jay,

    Excellent comment! You write from the heart ….

  91. @Saimã Abbasi,

    A Good Muslim Scholar Dr Naik. One of the super stars of Indian Muslims on Terrorism.

    Does he pass as a good scholar to consult? or, should I look up another one for you.

    Note: other Muslims here say do not consider what scholars say, consult the Quraan and Hadith. I think you guys should have a huddle and make up your mind on what is the proper way to understand Islam.

    By the way we look at all sources. Your holy book, your hadith, your historian writings, your scholars writings, your media programs (internet or traditional), etc. They all of these sources provide the same picture of the religion.

  92. I always enjoy Jay’s comments.

    On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:31 PM, American Bedu

  93. Yes He might be a good doctor, he has degree in medicine.
    Why you went to school to learn alphabets and everything, why you didn’t just read the books yourself? You went to university or college to understand Shakespeare’s poetry or newtons laws, why didn’t you just read their books and understand all by yourself?
    A Muslim scholar spends 40,50 years of his life in learning Islam.
    Strangely now a days anyone who knows English actually thinks, he or she understand and entitled to interpret what Allah al Mighty said in His final message to humans.
    Is it intelligent and logical? You need a teacher to understand Shakespeare and newton, and anyone can understand what Allah al Mighty said?
    These self interpretations are pathetic, either a Muslim do or any atheist do.

  94. Yes He might be a good doctor, he has degree in medicine. He is a good speaker. I found no information from where did he learn about Islam?
    Why you went to school to learn alphabets and everything, why you didn’t just read the books yourself? You went to university or college to understand Shakespeare’s poetry or newtons laws, why didn’t you just read their books and understand all by yourself?
    A Muslim scholar spends 40,50 years of his life in learning Islam.
    Strangely now a days anyone who knows English actually thinks, he or she understand and entitled to interpret what Allah al Mighty said in His final message to humans.
    Is it intelligent and logical? You need a teacher to understand Shakespeare and newton, and anyone can understand what Allah al Mighty said?
    These self interpretations are pathetic, either a Muslim do or any atheist do.

  95. Yes He might be a good doctor, he has degree in medicine. He is a good speaker and I found no information from where he learned about Islam.
    Why you went to school to learn alphabets and everything, why you didn’t just read the books yourself? You went to university or college to understand Shakespeare’s poetry or newtons laws, why didn’t you just read their books and understand all by yourself?
    A Muslim scholar spends 40,50 years of his life in learning Islam.
    Strangely now a days anyone who knows English actually thinks, he or she understand and entitled to interpret what Allah al Mighty said in His final message to humans.
    Is it intelligent and logical? You need a teacher to understand Shakespeare and newton, and anyone can understand what Allah al Mighty said?
    These self interpretations are pathetic, either a Muslim do or any atheist do.
    What are your options? This man made and developed western society where one left his or her parents at old homes and let their dogs sleeps with them on beds.
    When west was tending their muddy barns Islam rose from the desert of Arabia and ruled the world, discovered and developed the sciences and in Muslim Spain everyone practiced interfaith trust and lived in the harmony.
    If what you were interpreting from whatever sources you claim, is Islam, there wouldn’t be any Islmic history and there wouldn’t be such far reached and great effects on humanity.

  96. It’s not posting my comments.

  97. I tried to post the comment and not even showing moderation waiting message. Just vanished.

    We are experiencing problems with comments disappearing into spam. Do not keep reposting comments when they don’t show up but contact Carol so somebody can search the spam folder
    Moderator

  98. Salam Azad,

    re: “People Converting to Islam In Mass Numbers”

    Muslims often advertise news of non-Muslims converting to Islam in mass numbers, but they neglect to mention the other side, where Muslims are also leaving Islam. There are more Muslims leaving Islam today than there are new converts joining it. According to research carried out by the respected Pakistani-born American Muslim Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus, 3/4th of new Muslim converts in the US leave Islam within a few years. The sheer volume of recent apostates is unprecedented in the history of Islam, and unlike other faiths, people who apostatize from Islam risk their lives in doing so, and remain incognito. Hence, no u-tube videos of them testifying that they left Islam for something else.

    re: “Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion”

    Many Muslims and websites claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. As proof, they usually bombard us with unverifiable claims, baseless media quotes, and silly u-tube videos. However, if one examines the actual data available, it reveals that the growing number of Muslims in the world is due primarily to the higher than average birth-rates, and consequent population growths of Muslim countries and communities. Furthermore, Islam is neither the fastest growing religion by number of adherents or the fastest growing religion by percentage-increase; conversions play little part in the increase due to available data suggesting “Islam loses as many adherents via conversion as it gains”; and, as I mentioned earlier, apostates from Islam will rarely advertise leaving their faith due to the death sentence it imposes on its followers. (Source: Future of the Global Muslim Population, Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, January 2011).

    Also, contrary to what Muslims claim, Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the United States either, and quoting press releases from CAIR, does not make it true. According to the same Pew report, Islam is not even in the top five, based on percentage-increase changes between 1990 – 2000:

    Deists top the list (#1 @ +717%) , Sikhism (#2 @ +338%), New Age (#3 @ +240%), Hinduism (#4 @ +237%), and Baha’ism (#5 @ +200%). Islam is way way down the list at #9 (@ +109%).

  99. @Saima,

    “Why you went to school to learn alphabets and everything, why you didn’t just read the books yourself? ”

    But I did read your holy book many times in its original language. I also read most of the books of Hadith , Tafsir, Figh, etc. Did you?

    How do you think I developed my understanding of the religion?

    Obviously, you assume that everyone who reads those books do it with blinders on. I read them with critical thinking and understanding. I found them full of bad logic, contradiction to scientific facts, intolerance, bad rules and laws, etc.

    All of that would not matter, if the faithful just go on with their lives peacefully. However, that is not the case. Muslims want these bad rules to be implemented as Laws. They interfere with science and implement curriculum which teach children bad facts (ask yourself why is the Muslim word is so far behind in technology and scientific capabilities). They also control many countries with Islamist political parties and governments.

    Until the above changes, we will continue discussing the religion in a rational manner and expose such issues. You will have to learn how to live with the idea that people have freedom of expression and will argue against bad ideologies.

  100. Saima. Shame on you – a Muslim – calling poor Allah a liar. She says that the Quran is easy to remember and follow (Al-Qama 54, verses 17, 32 and 40 and many more). Are you going out in the streets to protest yourself for insulting Islam? Are you going to walk around the street with a sign saying “Allah is a big fat liar!”?

    Perhaps you should quote Al-Maida 5:101 to us next time instead. It simply says not to ask questions about Islam. As I said: no thinking allowed.

    Yeah, we non-muslims don’t know anything, only what we read and what we see. To paraphrase Marx, who should we believe, you or our lying eyes? BTW, that is Groucho, not Karl.

    Next time you take a shot at us ignorant infidels here, please explain Quran 9:111, ok? For some reason, the verse doesn’t seem to get mentioned much in Islamic sites, particular those for infidels and I can’t figure out why. Illuminate our feeble minds please.

    Boy am I in a piss poor mood today. I think I’ll go out a kick a few puppies and then maybe get the car and run over the little old 93 year-old lady in the walker down the street — or just go back to reading my book about the Middle Kingdom (Egypt!)

  101. Hi Azad,

    Just a brief comment about your assertion that there have been hundreds of positive quotes by non-muslims about Islam. You guys commit the logical fallacy of appealing to authority by using (very often out-of-context or false) quotes attributed to various noteworthy non-Muslim individuals, in an attempt to propagate your faith.

    In addition to Michael Hart, another darling of muslims is is the alleged quote by Thomas Carlyle where he claims, “The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped around this man (Mohammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only”.

    But what you guys fail to bring forth are quotes, once again by Thomas Carlyle, where he states that Koran is “the confused ferment of a great rude human soul”, and that Mohammad was an “uncultured semi-barbarous Son of Nature,” a “wretched Simulacrum, a hungry Impostor without eyes or heart”, and “much of the Bedouin still clinging to him”.

    Regards,

    Myron

  102. Very interesting comment, Umm al-Quwain. Thanks for sharing.

  103. Saima. Shame on you – a Muslim – calling poor Allah a liar. She says that the Quran is easy to remember and follow (Al-Qama 54, verses 17, 32 and 40 and many more). Are you going out in the streets to protest yourself for insulting Islam? Are you going to walk around the street with a sign saying “Allah is a big fat liar!”?

    Perhaps you should quote Al-Maida 5:101 to us next time, instead. It simply says not to ask questions about Islam. As I said: no thinking allowed.

    Yeah, we non-muslims don’t know anything, only what we read and what we see. To paraphrase Marx, who should we believe, you or our lying eyes? BTW, that is Groucho, not Karl.

    Next time you take a shot at us ignorant infidels here, please explain Quran 9:111, ok? For some reason, the verse doesn’t seem to get mentioned much in Islamic sites, particular those for infidels and I can’t figure out why. Illuminate our feeble minds please.

    Boy am I in a piss poor mood today. I think I’ll go out a kick a few puppies and then maybe get the truck and run over the little old 93 year-old lady in the walker down the street — or just go back to reading my book about the Middle Kingdom (Egypt!)

  104. @Umm al-Quwain,

    You’re very mean. Why ruin their fantasy with facts?

    What’s next, you gonna tell them that their sky daddy is invisible, because he really does not exist!!!

  105. MoQ,
    I am an avid reader, I read Gary’s anatomy many times, I understand it very well and I saw the videos of surgeries, if you ll need a surgery ll you please let me do your surgery?p As you know I can read, write, speak and understand English very well and gray’s anatomy is in English. So next time when you ll need a surgery contact me.
    ll you let me do your surgery?

  106. “I read Gary’s anatomy many times”

    But you apparently have not read the books of your religion 🙂

  107. I feel the need to set the records straight here: The fastest growing religion is the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as it was revealed to our prophet Bobby Henderson (PBUHP)

    This is probably the final final revelation.
    Also, women have full rights and there are no dress-demands, except that it is considered pious to wear pirate regalia on special days.

    You all can buy the gospel for a few bucks on Amazon and I strongly suggest you do so. We need global conversion to bring piracy back and stop global warming!

  108. @Saima,

    “if there were two or more gods, this universe couldn’t be going on one pattern but every god wants to run it as he likes. One would say the sun will rise from west and other ll say no, .”

    Of course, we take this peaceful time between the Gods for granted. Our current God Lore won the final battle and put things to his liking. As an example we see the planets now circling the sun. However, this was not always the case, only 500 hundred years ago everything including the sun and the stars moved around the earth.

  109. MoQ,
    You ll not trust me to do a surgery on your body, and I proved that I read Gary’s anatomy, I know English well. Shamelessly you and your fellow so called sudo interpreter felt at ease and great responsibility to define Islam, Quran the words of Allah al Mighty. Because you read it same as I read Gary’s anatomy. You ll not allow me to do your surgery and you take pleasure and pride to tell me what my Allah al Mighty said to me in His final message to Humans.
    Intelligence and intellect are sleeping soundly or ran back to jungles to dance with your granny chimpanzee.

  110. @Saima Abbasi,

    Your analogy does not work. I did not want to embarrass you by addressing it. But since you insist, surgery is not purely interpretation and understanding. It requires physical skills that has to be practiced. It has procedures, which has to be executed flawlessly or risk a patient’s life. So of course a person cannot learn it by simply reading.

    Religion in the other hand is built on knowledge passed in the form of text through generations. Your scholars also write their opinions and interpretations to communicate to a wide audience (eliminating the need for direct questions). Further, your religion also claims that your god was the author of his own book to communicate to us and he even insists that we read it to learn about his intent. So the information is there for anyone to read, understand and comprehend. It is really a simple concept, I am not sure why you cannot grasp it. You can continue with this silly argument if you like, but it is a loser one. At least for anyone one with elementary logic.

    Now for your rhetoric about intelligence and throwing insults around. Since you got here, you have been calling other names. We have gave you some robe in the hope that you learn some civility, but I guess you’re too stupid learn such things.

    Now, you need to explain why do you have this form of worship of scholars. Especially since they disagree with each other on so many things. How do you differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones? Wouldn’t your analogy about the gods arguing about how the sun rises apply perfectly here to your scholars giving different opinions?

  111. I want you to say it, surgery is physical skills that has to be practiced.
    This physical skill deals only with human body as concern to human’s.
    Everyday surgeons saves many lives and yet it also happens that some patient dies on the surgical bed. What you ll say surgery should be banished, it might be the surgeon’s fault or you ll start interpreting Gray’s anatomy? You ll not do any of these things.
    This skill is developed by humans and new discoveries are happening, some scientist practiced it so you have faith or believe on it, no you have proofs.
    MoQ,
    i ll try one more time,
    1. I believe there is no god but Allah al Mighty, my beloved Prophet Muhammad guided me and told me about Allah al Mighty.
    2. Allah al Mighty send his final guidance Quran al Hakeem to humans.
    3. Quran is not man made so I or any other human as much he or she wishes and wants Quran cannot be changed.
    4. As you believe on a scientist because he gave and showed proofs, so I believe on Prophet Muhammad.
    5. Prophet Muhammad himself was a living and practical proof of what Quran is.
    6. I believe and love Prophet Muhammad more than myself, my life, my parents and my only child.
    7. I as a muslim is not a perfect person, I have errors and faults because I am a human not a computer.
    Medical mistakes are third leading cause of deaths in the USA. You don’t stop practicing Medical. You don’t feel the need to start interpreting any medical book.
    Muslims are doing wrong, making religious mistakes and you come, took trouble of reading, interpreting and explaining my Quran, my religion.
    You believe on the proofs a scientist gave you.
    I believe on the Creator of humans Allah al Mighty and His messenger Prophet Muhammad.

    Please use the same account or at least the same name. Shadow accounts are not allowed on this forum. Please read the blog rules.
    As I said before, we have a problem with comments going into spam. please don’t post the same comment multiple times. Contact Admin and somebody will look through Spam for your comment.
    Moderator

  112. Saima, fret not. Allah guide us inshallah. Of course I agree with you. To be honest, I see this website simply as an Islam bashing website since the author herself seems to enjoy Jay’s comments which obviously is meant as an instigation. but the problem is,with all harmful drugs, the website is addictive. I have glimpse through many old comments and what I’ve noticed is most Muslim commenters like Abu Sinan, Sarah etc have left and the place is overcrowded with individuals whose sole purpose is to share their disdain towards Islam.

    I find it funny that you assume Muslims share the same beliefs and rituals with idolaters Aafke. You’re supposed to make intelligent comments not something like this. And no, you were being hypocritical when u claim to find the word idolaters as offensive but in fact you’re the first person to claim religion deserves no respect. Did you learn yet that Allah is genderless? Learn that then proceed with the discussion. On the contrary Bigstick God does exist. Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t make you right. Also i am waiting for the statistic on Muslim converts leaving Islam after three years. I can’t wait for the usual excuse that apostasy is bla bla thus no records. so wait, no records means no facts so an atheist making magical claims? that’s weird. Islam is the fastest growing religion. there are documented facts, you know-evidence. Goggles it up. you can run your mouth about Islam all you like.it doesn’t change facts. probably that’s what scaring you thus all this drama.

  113. Wow my comment is awaiting moderation despite having no links.

  114. Nice and precise comment Saima. When a satire website is used to start discussions about Islamic marriage, I do wonder the purpose of this website altogether.

  115. @Saimã Abbasi,

    No one is is telling you not to believe in what you like. We grant you that freedom.

    Your issue is that you want us to go even farther and respect your belief, even if we think it is a silly idea. Sorry, but ideas have to earn such respect through their validity.

    “Medical mistakes are third leading cause of deaths in the USA. You don’t stop practicing Medical. You don’t feel the need to start interpreting any medical book.”

    I am begging to think you are the queen of bad analogies. Of course we research and criticize medical procedures, because mistakes happen. And of course I can read reports and medical books to understand why such mistakes happen. I may even form an opinion on the subject if I am interested in it. It happens that I am simply more interested in the topic of religion than medical science. So why are you arguing that we should not criticize Islam. Another analogy that does not fit the argument you are trying to make.

    “You believe on the proofs a scientist gave you.”

    Not necessarily. I usually do not believe anything from science until it has gone through peer reviews, repeated experiments, etc. As described by the scientific method. Which by the way is a process of critical review and scrutiny to insure bad science does not pass as fact.

    The question to you is, if you have such belief in the validity of your religion, why do you want others to stop scrutinizing it? Wouldn’t such scrutiny just strengthen its position, just like a good scientific theory becoming more valid and accepted if scrutinized more?

  116. The Spam-monster is very active again.
    We do not know why this is happening. there is nothing we can do about it.

    Please do not keep posting the same comment over and over again when your comment does not appear. Let Carol know so somebody can go through the spam folder and take out your comment.

    There are some new commentators on the blog.
    Welcome and enjoy!
    Please read the blog rules on this post:

    http://americanbedu.com/2013/02/28/american-bedu-blogrules/

    Moderator

  117. You are very generous, so I also feel that you are also most welcome to not to believe on what I believe. Allah tala don’t think you are worthy of the right path, so be like this.

    As a human being you, me and all human beings are entitled with rights and duties. You respect my human rights, so I am willing to fulfill my human duties. Religion is my first and most important right, more than life itself. I’m not allowed to be a muslim, I don’t want to live an other moment. Islam is first, life is second priority for me. You don’t respect my rights, don’t ask from me to fulfill my duties as a human towards others. You respect my right to live, you are bound to respect my religion whatever I believe.

    Medical research is human made and err is human, Quran is not man made.

    These debates and your objections strengthen my believe, I searched for the answers I had and you asked.

    1. Ask your questions from a good known muslim scholar, they possess the knowledge, they gave their life’s 40,50 years to learn Islam.
    2. The words of Quran are truth, absolute and whole. Prophet Muhammad is the best human ever walked on Earth.
    You are no one, no body to interpret Quran, Hadith and Fiqh. Just you denied that I can do surgery after reading medical books and watching videos.
    3. A medical mistake took a life, life ends. A religious mistake ends not only this life but hereafter might be lost.

    One and only one Allah al Mighty created this earth, sun, moon, universe and every human being.
    He send us on this earth and send His prophets and books to guide us.
    He told that my life is test that I obey to His commands or I lost in the darkness.
    If I obey Him, He ll reward me. If I go astray He ll punish me.

    As for the sake of argument, if i agree with you that I might be wrong there is no god, no creator, no hereafter. So what my this life suppose 100 years is wasted.

    Yet I know, Allah al Mighty is my only God and Prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and Quran is His final and last message, guidance to humans, you don’t believe it. This life 100 years ll be wasted for you and the ever lasting life, that is forever, You ll be Looser there also.

    Who is Bigger looser?

  118. @ Saimã Abbasi: if there were two or more gods, this universe couldn’t be going on one pattern but every god wants to run it as he likes. One would say the sun will rise from west and other ll say no, humans are too big mouth than their sizes, no sun for them for few days.

    Saima, Hindus (and some other religions also) believe in a multitude of gods. But the universe has been running with fine precision, with a multitude of gods, for millenniums, according to the Laws of Science & Nature :)-

    Saima, here’s another version of Grey’s Anatomy for you to memorize, front to back :)-

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/multiple.html

  119. I logged in from Facebook account, when comments disappear i thought it maybe some Facebook log in problem so I logged in with twitter account and my name is same on both accounts.
    I send mail to admin twice about comments lost and not getting post.
    in fact I wrote a lengthy comment and I forget to copy it and its not posted here.

  120. Admin my reply comment to MoQ is lost.

  121. Admin I send mail and I don’t post the same comment again and what, it is lost.

    Your use of different variations of your name, email address and URL to post comments is probably recognized by the wordpress software as the behavior of a spammer. Please, use one consistent ID for all 3 and hopefully it will get better in time. Also, do not have the expectation that someone is constantly watching the blog and is able to respond instantly to your demand of releasing your comment from spam. The blog is not monitored 24/7.

    Moderator

  122. @Saima,

    Take a deep breath. Relax!!!

    Repeating the same argument over and over does not improve on a bad argument. I already responded to what you said a few times, there is nothing more to add. Just go back and read my responses over and over, and hopefully your will get it.

    With regards to Gary’s Anatomy analogy which does not work. Let me give you an example of how an analogy works:

    “You depending on that bad argument reminds of a blind squirrel, who stumbled upon a turd and thought he found the golden acorn”

  123. Saima Abbasi (@abbasisaima), on March 10, 2013 at 5:23 am said: 6. I believe and love Prophet Muhammad more than myself, my life, my parents and my only child.

    Hmmm. More than Allah swt? Or did you mean Mohammed saw and Allah swt are one and the same? Na’azoobillah :)-

    Mrs B, on March 10, 2013 at 5:31 am said: Islam is the fastest growing religion. there are documented facts, you know-evidence.

    Seriously now, Mrs B. Lord have mercy! With each passing comment of yours, you are sounding more and more like the infamous “Baghdad Bob”, during the last days of the fall of Baghdad :)-

  124. I could never understand the concept of loving a human being I had never met…more than my own children. Or anyone for that matter more than my own children. Could Muslims please explain why loving Mohammed more than anyone else close to you (including your own self) is so important in Islam?

    Such ego to demand such a thing in my opinion.

  125. Mrs. B…you will never get documented facts from the whole world concerning muslims since Arabs (mainly Muslim) are notoriously bad at keeping such records..about anything really.

    Plus…no matter how many new Muslims there are…something that will certainly never be known, due to the personal danger factor, are the numbers leaving Islam. Numbers increase mainly due to births, people assume children are born into their parents religion without giving the child a choice. Wait until that child grows up, accepts Islam personally…then count him/her as a follower. Then again, if he/she decides not to follow Islam…count that too. And that goes for any religion.

  126. @Coolred,

    “I could never understand the concept of loving a human being I had never met…more than my own children. Or anyone for that matter more than my own children.”

    It is the same type of of blind faith which makes the faithful think that the action of the patriarch of their religion sound reasonable. Hearing voices from an invisible source which commands you to kill your Son (Ismael or Ishaq, depending on your choice of religion) then acting on it, seems insane to logical people. Add faith to it and it is an act of supreme devotion to the deity and should be emulated.

    What is interesting is they demand that we respect such ideas.

    To be fair to Saima, I do not think deep down she believes in what she said. She just repeats what she has been told all her life, that Muslims should love their prophet more than anyone. At least I hope she has a motherly devotion to her children and this is just her way to prove her metal as a devout Muslim.

  127. Mrs. B:

    Please refer the post by

    Umm al-Quwain, on March 9, 2013 at 7:38 pm regarding your question on converts. Note. Converts here in the USA and i had provided you with a very pro-Islamic site that talked about it as well. In many western countries quite a few converts leave. However, there number are actually smaller by far than those who are becoming non-religious. 😀

    Next, as far as your country you must actually go to court to be allowed to not be flagged a muslim and they just don’t do that. In order to visit your country you actually have to declare a religion. Currently your country is jailing atheists. So do you really think you are going to get any accurate stat from such a country as yours and it is considered secular by the likes of Islamic countries. What the hell kind of stats do you think you going to find in Islamic countries based upon fear of your brethren muslims and blasphemy laws. Hell just recently muslims in pakistan burned over 100 Christian homes for an ALLEGED slight to the madeup spooks side kick himself Mohammed.

    Apparentlymany of the followers of your religion are weak sniveling emotional types that take on criminal aspects and act like an rabiid animal and are exceptional insecure with the thought that Islam cannot stand up to scrunity. Which only tells me it is built on a lie. Of course I prefer scholars such as Cook, Jeffrey, Crone, Nevo, Koren, Peters, Berg, Lammens, Rean, Rippin, Schacht, Conrad, Wansbrough, Puin, Gilliot, Popp, Neseda, Premare, Fedeli, Larcher, etc.

    At some point when are you gong to realize I do not believe in God and I dont even believe any of the prophets to inlcude Muhammad, Moses, Jesus, Abraham ever existed?

  128. Recent comment went to spam apparently. It was to Mrs. B.

  129. Yes, when there is money involved there should be guarantees.

    For example in the case of (2) people in their 20’s getting married, there should be a guarantee on the mahr in my opinion.

    In this case of cours- the post-, he deserves to loose everything he paid!

  130. I could not follow such a long discussion. But have a look about Muhammad’s PBUH’s marraige to young aged gal, keeping aside ur whims & judgment without CONTEXT for a moment:

  131. Azah:

    What do you want us to take from this? Next a three minutes presentation is a long discussion for you? If this is a long discussion then I would say this answers a great deal of my questions on your studying techniques.

  132. @Azad Ali Shah,

    It seems you cannot make an argument without some video lately. Have you lost the ability to develop your own arguments. Never the less Mr. Al Arifi (the man in the video) is using fallacies to make excuses for the marriage to a 9 year old:

    1) He claimed that hot weather makes girls mature at a younger age. Such claim only passes with uneducated people who do not evaluate arguments critically, like his star struck audience and you obviously. Extremely hot weather, producing stress on the body, may even have an adverse effect on body development.

    2) He claimed that girls bodies 1400 years ago matured earlier. Again another claim that goes against medical science. 1400 years in the past in an arid area, access to good nutrition would have been very difficult. Hence, body development would have been slower.

    3) He claimed that marrying girls was common of the culture. Granted that some girls may have been married early in tribal Arabia. However, you claim that the prophet was no ordinary man of his time. He was guided by omniscient deity, but he seemed to act only according to the misguided norms of the time, which can be harmful for young girls. Especially, when you consider that girls getting pregnant at such young age can be life threatening to both her and the fetus. So wouldn’t the fact that the prophet acted like the average ignorant man of his time, produce doubts about his claimed prophesy?

    The context argument does not advance your position and it has been debunked here over and over.

  133. Mr. Shah,

    Perhaps you don’t realize that by bombarding the threads here with silly videos, you are insulting the intelligence of many here. Hope you cease and desist in the future.

    Izzat Begov

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