Saudi Arabia: ”Hit her”

You are the one who's deficient, ''No Brains, No Religion''

You are the one who’s deficient, ”No Brains, No Religion”

According to the National Family Safety Program (NFSP), three out of 10 women in Saudi Arabia are subjected to domestic violence. Violence against women and children is a global epidemic. Studies suggest that at least one out of every three women around the world has been beaten, forced into sex or abused in her lifetime, while up to 10 million children witness some form of domestic violence annually.
Usually, the abuser is a member of the family or someone known to the victim. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to meet/spend time/talk to any man outside their immediate family, which would make the odds that the abuse has been done by a close family member about 99%.

against abuse Saudi arabia 1

Columnist Samar Fatany wrote earlier this month that violence against women is on the rise in Saudi Arabia despite recent efforts to put a stop to this dangerous phenomenon. “Unfortunately, there are no specific criminal laws addressing violence against women and children,” she said. “Domestic violence cases can be the subject of a police investigation; however, they are not treated as serious criminal cases and they are not prosecuted in court.”

Lately a number of campaigns have started, to increase awareness and (hopefully) stop abuse of women.

against abuse Saudi arabia 2

A really impressive and original campaign was was launched last week. It is sponsored by Libra Productions, a sound studio and music management agency based in Jeddah. The Saudi participants have been posting photos and awareness messages on their Twitter account using the hashtag #اضربها. The company also partnered with a law firm to provide consultations for those who need it.

You are male, but you are not necessarily a man

You are male, but not necessarily a Man

To speak your mind this publicly, with your photograph and website is incredibly courageous in Saudi Arabia. Especially for the women involved. These people are standing up for what they believe is right with courage and determination. Saudi Arabia must be proud of it’s younger generation.

Click here for the Libra productions facebook page and give them a ”like”!

Photo’s from: Riyad  bureau

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189 Responses

  1. There was an article in the Saudi Gazette a few days ago where a man was sentence to 30 lashes, and some prison time for slapping his wife in the face. So, I guess they are making some progress where domestic violence is concerned.

  2. In Islam we have Hadith that Beat your women with toothbrush.
    It means never beat wives…

  3. It is axiomatic that in a culture/society/religion the less rights, the less respect and status women have the more abuse, beating and rape women will have to endure. Therefore, although we have no real trustworthy statistics, the abuse, rape and beating suffered by women in Saudi Arabia must be unimaginably high.

  4. A very good thing!!!
    If you didn’t watch/listen to the Ted Talk I posted on the Cashier Harassment post take a look at it now. The theme is that we have to stop making this a woman’s issue and talk about it for what it is … a man’s issue. The speaker explains how and why the phrasing is so important. If I can’t get it imbedded maybe the moderator can do it.

  5. What a scary statistic! One and three women worldwide? Geesh! What makes it scary is KSA is the women was beaten from someone who she is not related too or married too. There is no protection there since it is likely that the victim will be charged with associating with the opposite gender who she not married or related too.

  6. Jacey, most of the abuse of women is done by men who are related or very close to them. In Saudi Arabia that percentage would be even higher. While I conclude the numbers of abused women who live under a culture/religion which denies women human rights, even ownership of their own persons, the abuse numbers will be of the scale, I think almost all of it will be done by their relatives, virtually all of it.
    And how is a woman to go to court if the man who has ownership over her is the abuser? She is not a legal person, she can’t even get to court because she can’t drive a car, she can’t talk to a man outside her immediate family… What an insane situation!

  7. Aafke said: she can’t even get to court

    Imagine this woman in USA, can she really get to court? I do not think so cuz she is an Arab and she is NOT a Caucasian or white-skinned!!
    site of opendemocracy say why:
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/bill-quigley/14-shocking-facts-that-prove-us-criminal-justice-system-is-racist

    Aafke said: rape and beating suffered by women in Saudi Arabia must be unimaginably high.

    Speaking about any social problem is endurable in USA but rape stats. You really do not know what happening in your free country:

    Rape at the national level from 2003 to 2010 which has a routine and loyal manner towards stats:
    93883 95089 94347 94472 92610 90750 89241 84767

    The more interesting it is Germany also has not a better situation even so in where any sexual act is allowed.
    8766 8831 8133 8118 7511 7292 7314 7724

    Why pros can not please the West?

    immediate families have not even mercy on children:

    Source: Current or Former Intimate Partner Stranger
    US Bureau of Justice Statistics 26% 26%

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

  8. @ Wendy, Good video. I think the speaker is correct, this is primarily a man’s issue with violent behavior. I am also glad that the Saudi campaign focused on men in many of their messages.

    I think these young men and women are doing a great service for their community.

  9. Muslim Pal … rape is very high in KSA and in many other countries where the victim is again victimized because she is no longer ‘pure’. She is damaged goods and no longer useful. It is not reported for fear of reprisal. This is a fact and a very sad one

  10. Wendy, I first came to American bedu years ago, because I wanted to learn about Saudi Arabia and what’s up with a country where a a girl who has been brutally gangraped gets sentenced to torture and prison for being the victim.
    And when she appeals her insane sentence gets doubled.
    This was the girl of Qatif story.
    Thanks for sharing that video, it was very good.

  11. Wendy said: This is a fact and a very sad one

    I am sorry so. But I never back such country like KSA. KSA is not an Islamic one. I am from Iran the country in which rapists will be sentenced to capital punishment__the execution.

    The matter is the West possesses a high-ranked rape stat while sexual acts are allowed in and men can be pleased the way except raping. But in Islamic Republic we have no brothel or cabaret. In the West a men who committed raping of more than one infant teen being sentenced to 132 years or such figures not execution.

    Who is the feminist? Islam or the West?

  12. @muslim pal according your statics the rate of rape was very high in germany with 9.4 and in the netherlands 9.2 of a population of 100000 this is not that high, compared to the us 27.3 wich is really uuu but to other countries in the middle. Look at sweden it is crazy, btw in sweden prostitution is illegal , in spain prostition is legel only 3.4 of 100 000.
    But you cant compare countries without statics…
    In a lot of countries rape inside a marriage is punishable ( how often it happens ??? i dont know ………)

    The vicious circle of violence against women most be broken by men and women, why both, first men have to accept the women have their own will and are better in some cases like multitasking ( this is hard for men) and are logical thinking persons as well , ( for years the school my nice attends the girls are the best is mathematics , pyisics and chemics not the boys ) These are factors which makes men insecure and the result can be an irruption of violence. They where brought up to be the head of the family, but now everything changes.

    But women have to change as well, if they are mothers they have to learn to treat boys the same as girls. not to treat boys like a prince. This is the fundament of your life…… in how many cultures a girl is ONLY A GIRL ….

    A girl is not more or less than a boy…….

    You will see the results later in marriages or partnerships

    PS excuse my mistakes

  13. Muslim Pal … in Islamic countries women are raped and the rapes are seldom reported so you have low stats. Also wives are raped and they are definitely not reported or even recognized as a crime. Segregation only increases the chances of rape IMHO.

  14. We have Hadiths in Islam tell us firstly correct yourselves then ATTEND others.

    Are you really correcting America and American faith that you opining about Islamic Countries? I always think US Officials love intermediary while all America love that so much…

    Go omit legal prostitution in Nevada and Red Light Districts in your constitution.
    Go punish rapists as Muslim punished them.
    Go eliminate man-superiority from US movies in which women are always toys to please men.

    BTW IF YOU CAN.

    Look guys. masculinism is not exclusively concerning Islamic borders. Plz expand it to all the world especially the West in which crimes against women is uncountable as you know better.

    In Persia we are not allowed to commit adultery and any sexual act is prohibited. In Islam the woman is much valuable than a sex toy unlike the West. But we live along with each other without any sexual look to others. We have spouses to make love and it is sufficient for us. Yes I never neglect that we have rapes, crimes but in compare with others__who claim feminism and human rights__is not that noteworthy.

    In Iran 55% of universities’ students are girls who high-levelly exist in any field of progress. girls got the same seat boys got. They compete with each other in fields of science, society, literature, etc. In Iran girls never spend pleasing men in brothels unlike USA and the West. Expect you acknowledge me.

  15. Muslimpal,

    I understand and appreciate many of your points. America and the West in general does have problems with objectifying women, and this is obvious to anyone who watches, for example, popular television for too long.

    However, that does not mean women are not valued as people, or that every man buys into this misogyny you believe runs rampant. Furthermore, being desired does not necessarily equate to being considered a sex object, and it is a mistake to imply that Iranian men don’t cheat on their wives, but that Western men do. It is not nearly as common as whatever source has led you to believe. The same goes for the brothels. Without getting into the argument of morality in this case, as I believe your mind is quite fixed on it, I lived in America for almost all of my life, and I have never known anyone who visited a brothel or could locate one if they wanted to. Women who work there and men who visit it represent a very small amount of the population.

    When it comes to which one is feminist, as you asked, or which does a better job protecting women’s rights, it is a sheer matter of perspective. There are Muslim women whose ideas of their rights are different–they would not easily surrender their right to be taken care of, protected, provided for, and see veiling or modest clothing as a right of hers. That is respectable to you and I. But we must also understand that not every woman considers this freedom.

    Some accept nothing less than equal footing with men, and recognition of equal capabilities, equal intelligence, equal strength, and respect that comes from these qualities, rather than from whether or not she confined herself to the social roles you consider proper for women. And who are we to judge, or to stop them? And, if a woman in the average country that falls under such criticism from the West for their perception of them as misogynistic decided to dress like a man, to act like one, to claim every right the average man has for her own, would people still respect her? Or would she no longer be behaving in a way worthy of being called “woman?”

    As you say, both have their flaws, and, as you say, you should fix yourself before venturing to fix others. Let us accept that, in either case, we have a lot of work to do.

    TE

  16. It all comes down to the way you are raised and therespect you have for human beings. not men , women or children, just treat them as human beings and all will be well. dont need to protect and treat women as pearls or hit and demean them. they are no different and no better or worse than men. just the same .

    unfortunately apart from tightening laws and bringing about awareness the only thing that will improve this is education. parents teaching their children, their sons and daughters on what is acceptable human behavior. sons need ot learn the meaning of equal human beings nd daughterss need to be taught to be self reliant and speak up.
    when both are raised to be good human beings, respectful of others and see their parents treating each other as equals and with love ,r espect adn trust then it will automatically sink in. no need for any book/scholar to teach this. this is easy simple thing.
    unfortunately this planet is far from achievig this objective. hopefully the parents of today raise more responsible and normal human beings.

  17. TE

    Agreed. You are really that much open-minded I love all Americans to be. Yes, in either case, we have a lot of work to do. And we should start with ourselves. My standpoint is why here Westerners talking about crimes against women in Islamic countries even so the same crimes in the West existed__as you mentioned. Americans easily accepted legality of prostitution which is totally against the entity of women and now are talking about Muslims. When Lady Gaga says “When a woman dose what men do, she’ll be called a bitch” is not about Muslims it aim at USA and allies.

    according to Quran spouses are clothes of each other. In Islam love is exclusively for wives not for others out of the family like GF. I mean you refraining from your own countries facing giant problems and come here with few info about Islam obtained from CNN, poor and pro-Talibanism countries(Islam is NOT what you see in KSA and Talibans’ behavior) to criticize Muslims.

    PS to boost women place in society, we must fix ourselves first.

  18. Radha, thanks for that excellent comment.

    Muslim Pal, the post is about domestic abuse in Saudi Arabia, and some really cool Saudi people standing against it. I know some people love to deflect attention by making up accusations against America, but the two countries cannot be compared.
    I really don’t care what statistics from which country you come up with, real or imagined. In a country like Saudi Arabia where women are property, women will be abused and raped to a level never even imagined in a country where women have rights, and where there are laws to protect women and children.

    And this is where Saudi Arabia and Sharia law fail. Saudi Arabia, and Islamic law, do not protect women and children.

  19. Muslim Pal, and I once saw a heartbreaking documentary following prostitutes in iran. We all know there are imams closing prostitution deals by mutah ”marriage” for an hour or a night, with instant divorce afterwards. If you think that makes it alright I am sorry for you.

    The point is: islam does not protect women and children from abuse.

  20. s.o. said:
    And this is where Saudi Arabia and Sharia law fail.

    Saudi Arabia and its pan-Talibanism view is NEVER Islamic. I am sorry for you who call Al-Qaeda and Taliban members Muslims.

    s.o. said:
    We all know there are imams closing prostitution deals by mutah ”marriage” for an hour or a night.

    Mut’a is a part of Sharia as a type of marriage with this difference that is timed.

  21. Muslim pal,

    I am glad that, in either case, you are concerned with improving the world for women. As a woman, I thank you! But just to touch on the prostitution: I understand the Islamic perspective, as I am a convert and the wife of a Saudi.

    At the same time, I try to remember that faith and belief of any kind is just that: a belief, and that is part of its power and part of what makes it dear to us. I do not expect everyone on Earth to agree with the ideas and laws of Islam. So, as far as the prostitution thing goes, you and I have our religious view of it, and you have a sociological view of it also. But I must also look at this from the outside and say that prostitution, though potentially damaging to the women, can also be considered empowering of women, affording them a way to be extremely financially successful, and allowing her to determine what to do with her own body. So I can also understand those who might say that prostitution isn’t exactly the proof of our misogyny, and, besides which, I can tell you that the cultural and societal effects of prostitution here is almost nonexistent unless you seek it out, and that many Americans are against it, anyway.

    It is a complex issue and would make for an interesting debate, but, either way, I hope it helps you understand the common Western perception on the matter: we tend to reserve the notion of “crime” and anti-feminism for what is committed against women, and what women are stopped from doing–not for what they are allowed to do.

    TE

  22. s.o. said:
    saw a heartbreaking documentary following prostitutes in iran

    Plz go far from CNN:

    91894 rapes per year is average of rape reported from 2003 to 2010 in USA__only reported ones based on http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/CTS12_Sexual_violence.xls

    Now 91894/365(days of year)=251 rapes in day, furthermore 251/24(hours of day)=10 rapes in hour.

    astonishing. In a country claims human rights we find 10 times of rape in only one hour let alone rapes not reported!!

    Besides have you ever looked at the stats of men killed by “legal weapons” in USA?

  23. Muslim Pal, The article is about Saudi Arabia, not about the USA, if you insist talking about the USA and refuse to discuss the complete failure of Saudi Arabia to protect it female citizens and children I suggest you look for another blog to comment on.

  24. @ TE

    I am really glad you’re a Muslim. Yea, but it dose not add up to me women please men by their bodies__bestowed by Allah to them__for some bucks…

    And also I am aware of what’s Americans’ pov towards harlotry. But as you know this view is not common in other western countries such as Germany, Netherlands, etc.

  25. Muslim pal, So you’re ok with women selling their bodies in prostitution marriage.
    I am against prostitution in any form, but that is a larger issue.

    I agree with you that if women are forced to sell their bodies to selfish men that it is better to have it regulated. In the Netherlands prostitution is legalized, which is mainly to give the women in the sex industry rights and protection. The muta and misyaar form of legalized prostitution is much better than no legalization at all because it allows women to have some independence and protection.

    At least as a prostitute in a misyaar or mutah deal a woman cannot be attacked by the police. Or the religious clergy, as they invented this form of prostitution and actually prosper by it because they make money by closing the deals.

  26. Regarding the topic:

    It is not Islamic view towards women that seen in KSA. Saudis’ pov towards women is unjustifiable and it is never acknowledged by Islamic laws.

    Saudis are descendants of those Arabs who have negative views concerning women to the extent that some of them Bury their daughters alive before Islam came and saved them, as the holy Quran says:

    81/8-9:
    And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked
    For what sin she was killed

  27. Muslim pal,

    Thank you, I am glad as well, but to each his own.

    Some women don’t believe that their bodies were bestowed to them by anything but nature, and I think we should understand this. To approve is a different story; you don’t have to approve of anything that offends you. The positives and negatives of prostitution on society is a long debate for people more qualified than me, but I try to separate my personal beliefs (especially if they are religious) from my expectations on how other men or women should live their lives.

    I respect your opinion, though, and I do understand what I think is the core of your argument: misogyny and abuse does not necessarily know the borders of countries. But the original point of this article was to highlight one country’s attempt to diminish some of an unacceptable level of abuse, which should be applauded and emulated by every community, regardless of how close or far we are from perfection, and that should be the most important thing we focus on right now. As you say, we have a lot of work to do.

    Regards,

    TE

  28. We all know that KSA is special. When speaking of domestic violence though we must remember that included in this are children. Even if there is no abuse done to the children they are very much harmed when the mother is hurt either physically and/or mentally. This will affect how they children act when they grow up. This applies to people everywhere in this world. Only when enforceable laws are put in place to prosecute those who commit any form of domestic violence will a country and it’s people really move forward.

  29. if somebody could hear rhe pain of women, the world would be deaf, bur women suffer silenty

  30. Not all if us, thank goodness. Not all of us and those of us who have strong voices should be vocal and scream for those who can’t.

  31. Muslim Pal- you seem full of prejudice against Saudi’s in the same way they are prejudiced against Iranians. You all sound like each other. You all listen to too much propaganda about the other and like to glorify your own position and consider yourselves followers of “real” Islam.

  32. And if you Google “domestic violence in Iran” it sounds pretty much like if you Google “domestic violence in Saudi Arabia”. Including cultural and religious justifications and lack of response by the police and shaming of the woman.

  33. Sandy,

    Not to comment on anyone here, as we hear a lot of generalizations from a lot of people (such as the one you are about to hear from me), but thank you. That is one thing that is driving me crazy. Where did everyone learn all of these awful ideas about people from this country or that country, or from this or that sect, or from this kind of village, this school of thought, et cetera? Every unfamiliar entity or every new idea seems immediately branded, mocked, trivialized and dismissed. There is nothing that has proved more difficult to me than trying to face the brainwashing from such propaganda with reason and logic, even in my dearest relationships.

  34. @ Sandy

    I’ve never claimed we have no violation in Iran but I’ve already say that you can find violations and prejudices against women all around the world. Everyone know Saudis’ behavior towards women is exceptionally biased and I am trying tell you Islam is not what you see in Saudi Arabia, I am backing my religion not region. And I want you to conceive that. Woman cannot go to a trip alone, woman cannot vote, woman cannot run a vehicle,women cannot be anything but a servant of a man generally, And you know better such things never exist in Iran against woman.

    That is not my faith. It is also the pov of majority of Muslims concerning KSA. I am a Shia Muslim from Persia but I’ve seen our Sunni Muslim brother who hate KSA for 100s reasons. Muslims from Pakistan and Afghanistan to Lebanon and Bahrain never admit such shameful deeds against women in KSA which are contributing to spread Islamophobia.

  35. I’ll clarify also. I am not a fan of the Saudi “brand” of faith. However, I am not sure the majority of Muslims disagree. They say they do- but then they do almost the same thing. I also think the Shia/Sunni differences in terms of religion shouldn’t matter. The extremists of both groups look the same. The reasonable people look the same.

    Muslims from all the countries you mention have the same problem (maybe to a lesser degree but still there). If a woman is sexually assaulted the law will often not help her. Her community will often blame her. There are honor killings in all those countries. And a significant portion of the society accepts them and accepts that they are often not punished and women die.

    Western countries have institutionalized laws in place to help women in these situations. Are they perfect? No. But a woman can call the police, go to trial against a criminal man and she will not be punished.

    There are are good an bad people everywhere. KSA’s system is what’s bad- not it’s people. And Iran’s system is slightly better- but it’s people are not. There are not better people in the west- but there is a better system that is more just towards women.

  36. quite just writing and I really accept what you opine.

    I am not will to make the discussion tribal nor to express partiality. But you look, there is no holy war against Muslims in Islam where as you see Taliban, Al-Qaeda Sipah-e-Sahaba(that all these terrorist groups are Sunni Muslims or iow Wahhabi/Takfeeri/Salafi) behead Muslims in the name of religion. But you never see any people backing them.

    You mentioned Iranian people not good. Why? Have you spent in Iran for just some hours which authorize you to judge Persian people or you imagining Iran as doomed CNN and other Jewish TV leading you to?

    Btw I’d appreciate your objective remarks regarding countries.

  37. All I’m saying is that Al-Qaeda and KSA are NOT reflecting Islam.

  38. I agree Al Qaeda and KSA do NOT reflect Islam. I don’t think the Iranian Ayatollah’s do either.
    I never said Iranian people are not good. Some are wonderful some are not- just like every country. The SYSTEM is not that great for women. Or for people who don’t agree with the local interpretations of Islam. That’s all I meant. And I see why you thought otherwise. I apologize it was a badly written paragraph and is not what I meant.

  39. And I DO NOT agree that Al-Qaeda and KSA do not reflect Islam. This lame argument always comes up when Islam realizes that it has no valid arguments to defend its brutal and dishonest practices. Al-Qaeda consists of Muslims and KSA consists of Muslims, too. Do you need anything more?

    For the record, the Quran allows Muslims to lie about their religion in order to protect it from attack, so I’m not surprised that certain Muslims deny that certain atrocities are committed by Muslims. Once the atrocities have been committed, you have Muslims crawling all out of the woodwork claiming that the people who committed them are not and have never been Muslims.

    Excuse me? Do you really think that the rest of us are idiots? You know very well that you can’t fool anyone into believing your childish lies and yet you keep making claims in the hope that you will catch at least one fool who will believe you. This is the precise reason I have zero respect for Islam – Muslims are never apologetic and never condemn the Muslims who commit crimes against the West. They just deny that the people in question are Muslims and refuse to feel ashamed.

    The other name of Islam should be “dishonesty” because I have met MANY Muslims but I have never in my life met a truly honest Muslim. They are all liars, more or less. They are generally truthful to each other but they don’t feel obliged to be honest and dependable with people outside Islam. If Islam is such an honest religion, how come it produces so many liars per square metre? There must be something really rotten in Islamville or that would have never happened.

  40. @ Sandy
    No matter. Why don’t you think the Iranian Ayatollah’s do either? The answer of an enlightened person like you is important to me. Thx

    @ Reality Check
    First of all let me welcome you to the topic and appreciate you for participating.

    With all due respect,
    You said: Al-Qaeda consists of Muslims.
    The world consists of criminals now can you say all human-being are criminals?

    You said: the Quran allows Muslims to lie about their religion in order to protect it from attack
    Yes, this is called Taqyyah but it is onlt against brutal ones who want to kill a Muslim. Are anyone killing me so that I am making Taqyya?

    You said: you have Muslims…
    We have Muslims who excommunicate Shias and some of Sunnis from Islam.
    We have Saudis Scholars excommunicate anyone who has gone to pilgrim of our prophet in Medina.

    But they(such as Taliban members and extremist Saudis) are Khawarij(non-Muslims) and out of Islam cuz of their filthy ideology.

    You said: never condemn the Muslims who commit crimes against the West.
    Go see who has brought up Al-Qaeda and Taliban and who supporting terrorists. There is no terrorists not being supported by Israel and it’s man of all work, USA.

    In Iran we as Shia Muslims condemn any attack against any people(whether Muslims or non-Muslims) all over the world. We hate terrorist groups more than you do.

    You said: I have never in my life met a truly honest Muslim.
    Lying is of the greatest sins in Islam.

  41. Reality Check … you go waaaay to far. There are liars in every section of life but to say all Muslims are liars is just preposterous! Get a grip. I am not Muslim either. I am an agnostic at best so don’t personally like any organized religion.

    Muslim Pal speaks a lot of truth. KSA practices it’s own form of Islam which is sadly being spread out to other countries. Muslims should be identified as such and leave the Sunni/Shia/whatever out of the equation.
    He also says a truth in that the Taliban, Al Qaeda etc. are criminals who happen to be Muslim.
    I also say that there are Israeli groups supporting their own brand of terrorist criminals.

    This is a topic about domestic violence in KSA and not about anything else so you should post on that topic and leave the rest out of it as I should have. 🙂

  42. Reality Check,

    You make an interesting point. I think it follows along the lines of “there is no Moderate Islam.”

    But, unfortunately, to make that claim, you must also say that there’s no such thing as a moderate Christian, but God knows those are a dime a dozen.

    Many Muslims in this particular day and age seem to follow the Quran and religious rulings with much greater faith and precision than Christians do. I have one of the most faithful, modest, and pious Christian women I have ever met for an aunt, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen her in sweaters that blend wool and linen.

    Anyway, it is clear you have very strong opinions on this, and your username assures me that you have little doubt that your opinions are the unparalleled truth, so I am sure this will be a worthless venture. But, as for myself, I am a Muslim who thinks that if you support or commit the smallest fraction of the absolute nonsensical violence, or the inexcusable, merciless rulings against human rights, you’re doing it wrong. It is a complicated debate, I will give you that–I’ve had some pretty brutal, exhausting debates stretching long into the night with fellow Muslims who might differ from my opinion on the matter. We broke out Qurans, we broke out classical Arabic dictionaries, everything you can imagine on the matter, and sometimes we still can’t agree on things like Sharia, holy wars, and other hot-button topics.

    Although I love my religion and its people dearly, in your defense, it is harder to find Muslims in sheer number who will assume a rational and critical view of the acts of Muslims and Islamic countries than it is to find those who volunteer themselves as pawns of political, social, and religious wars in the name of a warped view of Islam. But we do exist, and I hope our numbers increase.

  43. Also, yes, I forgot about the lying thing, Muslim pal has it right exactly. If you’ve met a lot of Muslim liars, this might be a cause of correlation but not causation. The Islam-sanctioned lying is pretty specific.

    If someone is going door to door in your apartment building asking each resident their religious affiliation, and, upon hearing “Islam,” executes them, by the time they get to your door, by all means! Say you’re a Christian, throw in some nice things about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and get out of there with your life, expecting no penalty of apostasy for the traumatic event. A pretty fair option, in my opinion, and one I know I’ll be utilizing if the opportunity ever comes my way.

  44. @Reality Check. I never said these terrorists were not Muslims. I cannot determine that. However, in my opinion they are very poor examples of Islam. And I condemn terrorism against anyone. Individual and state sponsored.
    Also, who is not “allowed” to lie when their life is threatened? So much is made of this- it’s really a non issue to me. And I have NEVER heard a Muslim say it’s ok to lie to trick people. In fact I never hear them talk about it at all. Because the kinds of extreme situations this applies to are no-brainers for everyone Mulsim or not..

    @Muslim Pal
    I am not an expert on the Ayatollah’s and everything they have said. But I have, over the years, read many declarations that I consider outside Islam. I am Sunni and my understanding is there is NO clergy in Islam. So in general I am against following these types of religious leaders and their fatwahs whether they are a Shia Ayatollah or a Sunni Scholar.

  45. +
    Excuse me, let me put some sentences display pure Islam in what you’ve said:

    Muslims should be identified as such and leave the Sunni/Shia/whatever out of the equation.

    I also say that there are Israeli groups supporting their own brand of terrorist criminals.

    I am a Muslim who thinks that if you support or commit the smallest fraction of the absolute nonsensical violence, or the inexcusable, merciless rulings against human rights, you’re doing it wrong.

    But we do exist, and I hope our numbers increase.

    If you’ve met a lot of Muslim liars, this might be a cause of correlation but not causation.

    However, in my opinion they are very poor examples of Islam. And I condemn terrorism against anyone. Individual and state sponsored.

    who is not “allowed” to lie when their life is threatened?

    To all:
    As a humble man of Persia, I am proud that humans like you still exist. Let me make dua for you, may Allah protect you and increase your number.

  46. Muslim pal,

    Thank you, and the same for you!

    Sandy,

    As before, thank you, thank you, thank you. I think you and I would get along just fine.

    TE

  47. Muslim pal, on June 12, 2013 at 4:37 pm said: However, in my opinion they are very poor examples of Islam.

    Looks like there are 1.6 billions islams out there and each of the hundreds of sects points to the other as “poor examples of islam”. What gives :)-

  48. Moe Bandy,

    Long story! But in short, look at all the factions and sects of Christianity. As someone from a diverse Christian family, I can tell you that I’ve seen similar accusations thrown all about. My immediate Methodist family thought the Baptists missed the message, the Catholics in my family thought we both had it all wrong, on and on ad infinitum. Someone who is able to step out of the fray of dueling factions in any religion can probably figure out the classic theology (in Islam, the primary and highest, and, arguably, only source of true Islam is the Quran), and see how that compares to how we’ve behaved ourselves. Big disappointment, overall. And terrorism and most of these idiotic inventions are not something easily attributed to the only necessary and core truth of Islam.

    Also, weren’t we once talking about domestic violence?

  49. @TE,

    “Also, weren’t we once talking about domestic violence?”

    Agreed.

    This turned into a ridiculous argument of someone comparing the treatment of women in the third worst country in the world (Iran) a theocracy, against the second worst country in the world, another theocracy. I got news for you Muslim pal, Iran’s treatment of women is just a tad better than Saudi and somehow it turned into a progressive country in your indoctrinated mind.

    Now TE, since you mention the Quran and the measure of behavior isn’t it the reference where men are given the right to beat their women also isn’t it the same reference where women are given lower status than men?

  50. MoQ,

    Thank you for the question. I am going to assume your question is genuine and not simply an attempt to entrap me, so here is an honest answer–an article written on the subject, which can be found here, with references from the Quran and some extra information as to the logical course that can (and should!) be taken with interpreting the Quran:

    http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/beating_women_%28P1179%29.html

    You will find that it addresses your question, and any mention or assumed mention of beating women in the Quran, and establishes doubt to the common interpretation thereof, which, in a strictly Quranic point of view, releases both obligation and revokes permission of any law found within if it stands in violation of other Islamic principles, which it does. You will also find that it is quite clear (and I do believe that this is a general consensus among Muslims, anyway) that, even if you take it to mean literally beating your wife, the restriction is incredibly clear that it is to cause no physical harm, no injury. The morality of permission to even do this is another debatable subject, but will return to the manifestations of Islam in culture and whether or not it is at odds with your own (and, in my case, if it can be considered Islamic permission at all), and has nothing, clearly, to do with the grievous injuries being suffered by battered wives.

    As for your claim of women being lesser, I would be interested for you to indicate where in the Quran it says this. As the Quran is something anyone has access to (there are numerous searchable websites), I see no reason why we should be speaking off of what we’ve heard or remembered alone, so I would love to address the passages which helped you form this opinion if you would kindly present them to me. You will find some references about gender differences, which is different than worthiness and value, and which assert that each gender has rights over the other, strengths over the other, et cetera.

    TE

  51. @TE,

    Your article is nothing more than the dribble of the typical apologist who twists direct words in a language called Arabic. It is done to make the Quran and the religion to seem more reasonable.

    The word Adhriboohun is very clear in the laguage and it means strike or beat, when it is used in the context of referring to a living being. Also, there is no mention in the Quran on how this beating should occur. Further, the translation that there is an order of escalation before beating starts is also an invention. The verse uses “Wa” which indicates a choice of equal options. If there was an order of progression the word “Thuma” would have been used.

    Regarding, your question on where does the Quraan give women lesser status. You do not have to go far as the he same verse, 4:34, specifically indicates that men are in charge of women (Quamoon). Also look up verse 2:228 where men are said to be a degree higher than their women.

    When words get twisted to mean something other than their actual meaning, then you are putting into question the validity of the book.

    I am actually very happy that these young men and women are standing up against domestic violence despite the teaching of the religion.

  52. MoQ,

    Thank you for expanding on the dictionary part, as I will confess, anyone who knows me knows that my Arabic is the all-time worst, especially with the bane of my existence: that infernal ayn!

    I understand your point, but the basic idea of anyone who relies specifically on the Quran for the laws of the religion is that it is complete, that the words are chosen carefully, and that it cannot contradict itself. I will admit that there is the stronger case for the most common interpretation, but it nevertheless stands in opposition to other passages regarding punishments and processes, of causing harm to other Muslims and the correct conduct with your wife. Again, it creates doubt and boundaries, which is something that should be utilized. Furthermore, to claim that there is no restriction on how severely this beating is is to focus only on this passage, and not to consider the very clear laws throughout the Quran which permits no injury, no harm, no death without what can be considered specific and particular crime, and to anyone who accepts this as the verbatim word of God, it seems like an awfully big oversight to allow what is deserving of injury or death to fall to the whims of an angry man. In fact, there are numerous passages against inventing such legislation, and when considering anything in the Quran, you must consider it as a whole.

    And, as I said in the first reply, you will find many references to gender differences, and that each has rights over the other. I will suggest that you are mixing up the Islamic concept of men being the protectors and maintainers of women with the idea that they are therefore unequal creations, and that women are sub-human. Again, a case can be made as to whether or not, according to the concepts you hold in high esteem, that the rights of women over men are not enough to balance out the rights of men over women. But that is a different discussion, and one not to easily be won due to the subjective nature of the values of either side.

    Finally, I should hope that no one here has any other sentiment regarding this campaign!

    TE

  53. @TE,

    ” In fact, there are numerous passages against inventing such legislation, and when considering anything in the Quran, you must consider it as a whole.”

    I have read the Quran many times and there are no such rules as they relate to not causing harm to a wife. I am not talking about death by the way I am talking about harm that comes from beating. You need to ask yourself why is the verse specific about beating the women to begin with. You are avoiding the topic with generalities. I am really not the one that brought the quran into this discussion; you, did to support your argument that Islam does not condone the mistreatment women. When a specific reference is given to you, you resort to the twisting of language and vague references to the entirety of the quran. Well the quran in its entirety allows killing of enemies, slavery, control of women, etc. so how does that support your argument?

    “I will suggest that you are mixing up the Islamic concept of men being the protectors and maintainers of women with the idea that they are therefore unequal creations, and that women are sub-human.”

    I never said the quran calls women subhuman, it says they are a lower class of human (big difference).
    The fact that the quran only speaks to the man on the issues of who has control in cases of conflict should give you a big hint that women are marginalized and are treated as a lower class of humans.

    Again, this topic could have stayed on point and how courageous these young people are. Except for the fact that the faithful know even if only subconsciously that the problem exists in the religion and go in the defensive even when no one brings it up. I am only trying to correct the wrong information which has been thrown around for the last few days.

  54. MoQ,

    Actually, my intention when bringing up the Quran was not to speak about domestic violence against women. We had gotten so far off topic that I had terrorism and the like in mind!

    Anyway, I see you are quite passionate about this, and that you have us all figured out. You ask why the passage is in the Quran in the first place. If it allows the man to hit the woman, that is a pretty general statement. I realize you are not talking about death, but let us be frank and understand what we are alluding to in this regard: that battered and abused women, who very often face grave injuries and death, have the religion to thank for it. So, therefore, I try to look at this reasonably. Does it sound reasonable to you, as someone who has read the Quran numerous times, that there are no restrictions on the disciplining of women? Can the man beat her to where she might reasonably be expected to die? Can he beat her with the intention to kill her? If the answer to this is no, then it is necessary to accept that there are boundaries to this permission. And the boundaries are enforced recurrently in the Quran. It does not have to specifically be about wives and women–could you imagine how long the Quran would be if it had to delve into such specifics? Instead, it addressed Muslims, humans, et cetera, which women happen to fall under. Now, I have told you many times, there is a case to be made if you want to talk about the misogynistic implications of allowing a punishment such as this even on the scale where the prime purpose is communication and not assault. That’s a fine discussion. And regarding the lower class of human thing, that is pure interpretation; not in the sense that it is not a good argument to be made, but that it is subjective, and the Muslim woman enjoying her rights over her husband who desires the paradigms in place might have a thing or two to say about whether or not it makes her a lower class of human. It’s just a position that can’t be won either way. Values of this nature are too subjective.

    You can criticize all you’d like about the generalizations employed by people of faith who agree with more reasonable, human morals, and dismiss them as the shadowy work of apologists. But let me ask you: does it matter? As someone whose highest concern appears to be the heartwarming progress of these people, who you said in no uncertain terms were doing it despite their religion’s permission, what is so fascinating to you about trying to discredit those who attempt to find room for morals in religion? It appears to me that you are a reasonable man who knows that this sort of tactic can be applied to most any religion and that you could launch a similar crusade against the cruelties of Christianity. I am interested in what your goal is, and if your highest argument is one against religion entirely, as it appears to be. That’s an interesting one to be had. I logged a lot of years as an atheist, and I’ve had it many times from many perspectives. It’s a position I can respect despite personal sentimentality.

    Thankfully, regardless of what the Quran says or does not say, you can see that there are those who are leading the way for a higher moral road than the baseline, than what is allowed. I suggest you reserve your well-intended aggression for those who feel otherwise .

    TE

  55. “Does it sound reasonable to you, as someone who has read the Quran numerous times, that there are no restrictions on the disciplining of women? ”

    What is not reasonable is for the quran to sanction the beating of women to begin with. What is not reasonable is for people to claim that a specific religion should serve as a moral guide for human behavior while it has such flaws. What is not reasonable is for a woman like you to accept that a man should correct a woman with physical beating, regardless of how severe it is. It is this acceptance that is the problem.

    What is reasonable is to accept that violence in any shape has no place in a marriage and family relationships. In your last comment, you actually seem to accept that a man should be allowed to make these corrections using physical violence. Mysuspicion is that you are only taking that position because it is sanctioned by the religion. Hence, the issue with religions as a basis for morals.

    ” It appears to me that you are a reasonable man who knows that this sort of tactic can be applied to most any religion and that you could launch a similar crusade against the cruelties of Christianity.”

    I am not Christian and I believe Christianity has similar issues to Islam when the bible is used as a guide. Thankfully, when it comes to western countries the bible is not used as a source of law.

    That brings me to my motivation, I think secular laws built on logic and fairness should be used instead of backward religious morals.

  56. MoQ,

    I thank you for the clarification of your intentions, although I must admit that I am not quite certain as to a few more of them. It seems a criticism of yours is apologist behavior which refuses to recognize the existence of social flaws in religious doctrine, but on the other hand, any acknowledgement of them is similarly condemned. I take it the only satisfactory conclusion to this is one that denounces and then renounces religion. If that is your goal, best of luck to you; you’ll need it. In my youth, I tried my hand at it, and I found it to be disheartening venture.

    What is interesting to me is that you take my willingness to speak to you rationally about the contents of a religion to which I belong as unequivocally supporting the worst manifestations, the worst options, and the worst increase of it, when I think I have indicated more than once where my opinion lies on the matter of domestic abuse. As you are someone who appears to believe that identifying yourself as a faith where some things are permitted that are socially inadvisable or otherwise unconscionable, especially if you interpret them to the degree which you fear we might, is tantamount to acceptance and advocating the worst possible outcomes, I wonder: is your next order of business to try to convince the Muslims in this campaign that they are hypocrites?

    Anyway, I appreciate your argument and your intentions, and, if we were really to get into it, I feel like we could talk for ages about the entire subject of the morality of religion or the value or lack thereof. Your intentions are noble and you are clearly very logical, so I, at least, would be thrilled to pick your brain a little bit more. But, as you said, this has gotten out of control, so I refrain from trying.

    TE

  57. @TE,

    Good luck to you. I am not sure why you keep insisting that you understand my motivation or that your experiences in your youth are similar to mine. These are areas you cannot even know about 🙂

    I actually thought you had a reasonable position at the start. That is until you indicated acceptance that a man should be able to correct his wife’s behavior by beating her as long as it is not overly violent. That position was based on your acceptance that your religious book cannot be wrong.

  58. MoQ,

    I am afraid you misunderstand me. I did ask about your intentions quite a few times, not sure that I insisted that I understood them. I’m working with what you give me. Also, I know the feeling! You similarly cannot know much about my personal or marital life, or whether or not I follow everything to be found in the Quran, or whether or not I would tolerate my husband beating me, or someone else’s beating them.

    I am not sure which position you wished to argue about. I thought you wanted to speak of it through a Quranist point of view, to which I obliged. If you wanted to know about my personal opinions on the matter, we could have had a much different conversation. But we were talking about the Quran as per your request, and whether or not following its religion makes you necessarily in favor of beatings, or whether or not there was room for doubt that it advocates the atrocities it is blamed for, whether the average Muslim could even make a case that the violence you see against women is acceptable given the entirety of Islam. If engaging in a discussion about the actual limits of theology attempting to find out how morality could exist within these confines is equal to acceptance, I’ve apparently accepted a whole bunch of unsavory things.

  59. @TE,

    – I told you my position.You seem to go in circles about my intentions. I have only the truth as it relates to the treatment of women as my intention on this topic.

    – I never spoke about your life, your husband, etc. in any of my comments. That is purely your imagination that leads you to project that in any of my comments.

    – You are the only one in this conversation who is making it personal. Like your comments about me being like you in your youth. That is condescending. Have you considered that may be my convictions and knowledge could be better than yours when you were young. That may be talking in such terms could be considered rude and in bad form.

    – Finally, not for one moment did I think i was debating with you about quranic positions since you demonstrated from the first comment that your knowledge about that topic is limited.

  60. MoQ,

    Whether or not you deem my perspective on the matter knowledgeable or regardless of what you felt I was implying by saying I once had a position wherein I spent a great deal of time trying to argue the evils of religion, it seems we are long past the point where we are engaging in civil conversation.

    I attempted to be fair and to discuss and inquire about your claims, and perhaps we’ve both made too many assumptions about the other person’s viewpoints and misinterpreted the intentions of each other’s responses. In either case, we are not doing anything beyond throwing blame at each other, so let me be the first to remove myself from the petty public squabble.

    Regards,

    TE

  61. @TE,

    “I attempted to be fair and to discuss and inquire about your claims”

    I do not think it is fair at all to go on about my intentions, when I stated my clear position multiple times. It is also not in good debating form to make things personal. I keep everything focused on what is said here including the comment regarding your knowledge about the quran, since you admitted that you had no knowledge of what the words meant. I merrily took your word for it.

    Have a good day.

  62. @ MoQ

    pardon me for interrupting.
    As you going on, shows you are seeking the truth and that pure intention is holy in our religion. I’d congratulate you on such mind truth-seeker you have.

    Let me clarify something first, the holy Quran is not the only Muslims reference and we have to use Hadiths(narrated from the prophet) to comprehend Quranic verses. E.g. We have no verses in Quran which indicate how much we shouhd pay for Zikat(one of Islamic monetary obligation based on which we should allocate fraction of our money to give poor people). In Quran we have verses order us to give Zikat but there is no sign of how many, then we refer to Hadiths and find how many has to be allocated for Zikat. Or regarding prayer, Quran does not tell us in night prayer we have a 3 and 4 rak’a prayer. And we are forced to refer to Hadiths to discover that.

    That same procedure is available for all Quran verses that me must interpret Quran along with Hadiths. The Sharia is too based upon these two(Quran & Hadith).

    Thereupon we also refer to Hadiths for this verse(beating women):
    Muslim pal, on June 8, 2013 at 8:49 am said:

    In Islam we have Hadith that Beat your women with toothbrush.
    It means never beat wives…

    Inevitably if a Muslim beat his wife in the other way except what Hadiths order, Islam is NOT guilty.

  63. No human can deny the man superiority in societal affairs and woman superiority in home affairs. It means man are the maintainer of family, as you see in any part of the world, and this is what Islam says.

    The procedure of hitting wife who refrains from accomplishing the rights of her husband in Islam is as follows:

    Quran:
    Men are in charge of women by what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and, strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
    http://quran.com/4/34

    Hadith:
    firstly advise them.
    secondly forsake them in bed.
    finally strike them conditioned by:
    i. striking with toothbrush(it means so slightly)
    ii. without any pain remained.

    Shi’ite references of the Hadith above:
    مجمع البيان في تفسير القرآن، ج‏3، ص80
    lib.eshia.ir/12023/3/80/

    مسالك الافهام ، ج 8، ص357
    lib.eshia.ir/10151/8/357

  64. @Muslim Pal,

    Ok, so now we are talking about Hadith. Great!

    First, there is no Miswak (tooth brush) hadith relating to wife beating. It was a made up story based on the prophet telling a servant he will beat her with her miswak. The funny part is Muslims heard about this legend of a Miswak hadith, they believe it without ever asking for a reference.

    Now if you want to look for a reference of the prophet condoning beating I can think of 2 references for you to look at

    1) “Al Tafsir Al Kabir” By Al Razi, where the origin of the 4:34 verse is explained. In this a woman came complaining to the prophet after she was slapped by her husband with the mark on her face. The prophet told her she should get even with him. Then he changed his mind and asked her to wait. Later verse 4:34 was revealed to him allowing men to beat their women. In the usual twist Allah was blamed for teh ruling with the prophet saying “We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best”.

    2) Another hadith for your review is Bukhari Book 7 Hadith 715. where Ibn Al Zubair beat his wife until he left green marks on her skin. She came to the prophet to complain and he took the side of Ibn Zubair.

    I am afraid hadiths do not support your argument of light beating.

    I also, want to add that even light beatings of women should not be acceptable in any civilized society.

    I can add more hadiths if you like, but I think 2 references should be sufficient to get you started in your quest of knowledge!

  65. Dear, Shias and Sunnis references are not acceptable for each other. And I as a Shi’ite do not accept such Hadiths you’ve mentioned, we shias have our references. Plz bring me from those. Btw I have brought you Shia references regarding Meswak(this Hadith is authenticated by our many scholars.)

  66. @Muslim Pal,

    I just saw your second comment.

    Just for your info your references are not of Hadith. They are of Tafsir (interpretation of Quran). That is they are scholars interpretation writings about the Quran.

    Even in those 2 references, the story I wrote about of the woman coming to the prophet after being beaten was confirmed. In one interpretation she was not slapped, she was punched (more severe than a slap). They both also referenced that a man can beat his wife as long as he does not break a bone or the skin. That is more than just light taps as you may want us to believe. The scholars even reference the Miswak thing as an option (not the only option), but they do not provide support of where it originated from.

    “Btw I have brought you Shia references regarding Meswak”

    Note the word of a scholar is not a hadith. A hadith is the sayings or actions of a prophet. In teh case of Shiia it may extend to Ali, Fatimah ,etc.

    I understand that you’re shia, but in this topic Shia and Sunni interpretation of the verse are actually very similar even when taking your references into account.

    Did you actually read your references?

    Also, why do you think that physical beating and the resulting humiliation of women is even acceptable, if it was not for the religion sanctioning it?

  67. It is the last option for a man wants to divorce his wife. It helps arrogant wives have chances to be supported not divorced.

    My vernacular is Persian and the second is Arabic and the last English. Therefore I want you to recheck my references they are Hadiths come in Tafseer book of Tabarsi(our scholar).

    Many of Sunnis authenticated also return to Sahaba(companions of the prophet SAWAWS), so those are not wholly narrated from the prophet SAWAWS.

    Btw our Shia Hadiths are originally and finally concluded by narrations from the holy prophet SAWAWS.

  68. Hmmmmm, so you actually do not have a hadith about the miswak (tooth brush) since there is no narration of the holly prophet of that in your references. It is just an invention, not a hadith. If I am wrong, please show me the specific narration.

    Finally, just to confirm your position, women beating is really better for them. If they get arrogant then make them submit to a man’s will by beating them instead of a divorce, which results in a better situation of the man supporting them?

  69. Absolutely wider, It is an option for man as the maintainer of the household(equivalent of president for a country who has option to punish someone guilty to return peace to society rather than spreading differences and distances)

  70. عن ابن عباس: ” فعظوهن بكتاب الله أولا، وذلك أن يقول: إتقي الله وارجعي إلى طاعتي، فإن رجعت وإلا أغلظ لها القول، فإن رجعت وإلا ضربها ضربا غير مبرح ” وقيل: في معنى غير المبرح أن لا يقطع لحما، ولا يكسر عظما وروي عن أبي جعفر أنه الضرب بالسواك.

    http://lib.eshia.ir/12023/3/80

    وأما الضرب فأن يضربها ضرب تأديب كما يضرب الصبيان على الذنب، ولا يضربها ضربا مبرحا ولا مدميا ولا مزمنا، ويفرق الضرب على بدنها، ويتقي الوجه وروى أصحابنا أنه يضربها بالسواك، وقال قوم يكون الضرب بمنديل ملفوف أو درة ولا يكون بسياط ولا خشب.

    وعن أياس بن عبد الله قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: لا تضربوا إماء
    الله، فجاء عمر إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: ذئرن النساء على أزواجهن فرخص
    في ضربهن، فأطاف بآل الرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله نساء كثير يشكون أزواجهن، فقال
    رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: لقد طاف بآل رسول الله نساء كثير يشكون أزواجهن، ليس
    أولئك بخياركم، رواه الثلاثة، راجع مشكاة المصابيح: 282، أسد الغابة ترجمة أياس بن
    عبد الله.

    http://lib.eshia.ir/10036/4/338

  71. Muslim pal, I hate to break it to you but your comparison between a leader of a nation and his followers and the loving respectful relationship between a husband and his wife is preposterous. I am a Muslim and I completely disagree that wife beating is condone in Islam, Quran or Hadith. Let’s not forget the Hadith “Those who are good to their wives are the best of men…”

    TE, just a heads up in case you didn’t know…Moq is an atheist,a former Muslim (although he claimed to have been a skeptic since childhood). Therein lies his intentions.

  72. Thanks, Mrs. B. I think he does not appreciate when I say it, but I did the opposite change, so I still find his a respectable and familiar position. It is an excellent conversation to be had if done amicably. It’s a shame he and I got too aggressive with it, though!

  73. “Those who are good to their wives are the best of men…”

  74. Okay, lets just take this a step further. Abuse doesn’t have to be physical. Mental abuse is just as bad. Pushing, shoving, even a tap on the body is abuse. It is not acceptable in any form.

    Muslim Pal … men should not be in charge of women. Women should be in charge of themselves. Women capable of running a business, holding a job AND looking after a family at the same time. Women CAN and do run countries. Women should be allowed leadership in any religion including Islam. The ‘old boy’ should die.

    Islam does not treat women the same. Sharia law when it comes to inheritance is very unfair. Girls and women do not inherit equally to men and boys for starters. Even this fact in my mind is abuse.

  75. Al Tabari: ” Treat women kindly; they are like prisoners in your hands. Beyond this you do not owe anything from them. Should they be guilty of flagrant misbehaviour, you may remove them from your beds, and beat them”

    ”Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from Allah, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of Allah”

    Where the Quran goes wrong is in putting forward the mistaken idea that men are superior to women. The Quran and hadith, and the prophet, are wrong. They are definitely wrong in denegrating women to the level of chattel, prisoners, or domestic animals .

    It’s this concept of all women being lesser humans, domestic animals, prisoners or slaves, which is the origin of the widespread abuse of women, and the lack of protection or even recognition in those countries where they have no secular law.

  76. Wendy, I agree fully. Mental abuse is just as bad.

    I think the unfair inheritance laws were devised to make sure that women did not get independence. You wouldn’t want your cow to walk out on you because she has her own meadow I suppose.

  77. This is also the main reason why they don’t want for women to have jobs in Saudi Arabia. Women making money will give them self esteem, and independence. Women with independence and self esteem will not put up with beatings anymore, and moreover, they will have the power to walk out.

    With women in power and earning independence there eventually will be rights for women, and at that point women will have climbed above the domestic animal level, and they will have proven, in the heartland of Islam, that the invisible skydaddy and his little friend were completely wrong.

  78. @muslim_pal – I’m married to a muslim but i think I’ll take the divorce over the beating ( even with a toothbrush) anyday thanks. 🙂
    A marriage is between adults, we’re not 2yrs old to need discipline, no matter who or what preaches this.

  79. AA, et el … I watched an interesting discussion (US based) the other day about how men felt about their wives earning more money than them. I would say at least 50% of them were not comfortable with it. Shows just how insecure men everywhere can me. Sad but true. 😦

    As far as I’m concerned any man who thinks any kind of abuse is okay or that he needs to ‘control’ his wife or family is insecure at the very least.

  80. Wendy, I know the discussion you mean, it was on several programmes last week. Isn’t it bizarre?

    My husband says he’s looking forward to me becoming a famous artist and making lots of money, so he can retire and sleep all day and just have fun.
    Like my other pets….
    :mrgreen:

  81. @Muslim Pal,

    The 2 narration of hadith you posted in Arabic again did not include miswak portion as teh narration of teh hadith. They were the extra sentences the writer added to describe the hadith. Do you have a specific hadith where it is narrated of the prophet. to use Miswak to beat your wife?

    I still have not seen one Muslim that can bring that hadith, I am hoping you can

    @Mr B,

    Being an atheist is not an intention. It is a natural state of having not been convinced of a religion.

    The rest of your comment is your typical passive aggressive behavior of talking about others. Then later you claim to be the victim. I wish you learn to behave better.

  82. Aafke,

    My husband says the same sort of thing. I enjoy working, and he does not. If we could afford it, he would love to sit at home, play video games, and get an allowance every now and then to go shopping or eat with his friends. Maybe pride speaks to him, too, but laziness speaks to him more in this particular case.

  83. AA … of course the two of you would never be married if he wasn’t a strong and secure man just as my husband is. Control me … he laughs at the thought and wouldn’t have it any other way. He’s Muslim to boot. LOL!!!

  84. “Let’s not forget the Hadith “Those who are good to their wives are the best of men…”

    No one denies that there are hadiths that ask for good behavior of men. However, men who do not want to respect women and even beat them are not going to look at these good behavior hadiths. They will find specific justification in the Islamic text that justify wife beating. As a matter of a fact there is a large percentage of Muslims who would disagree with wife beating in general, but cannot support a law to ban it because wife beating is allowed in Islamic texts.

    When you have a quranic verse allowing beatings using a specific clear term and is followed by a hadith reaffirming it as the wish of God, then you will deny the religion if you prohibit it. This is exactly the reason why moderate Muslim scholars keep going on about the light beating using the Miswak, a feather, etc. They forget that even light beating has an element of humiliation to the women, but they are stuck and cannot prohibit it outright.

    Again, I want to refocus on the topic of the article and how this campaign is courageous and will help educate Saudi young people. Their task is not easy, but it is a very good step forward in awareness. What Saudi needs is a clear law that prohibits the practice and criminalize the violent behavior.

  85. I don’t consider my husband a pet so I would be uncomfortable having him retire and sleep around all day. I expect him to do his part with my full support and love just as he expects me to do my part with his care and respect.
    There is no justification in the Quran nor hadith about wife beating.

    “…Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them…”(The Noble Quran, 2:231)

    “If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men’s souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.” (The Noble Quran, 4:128)

    Aaishah (Radhiallahu ‘Anha) said: “Allaah’s Messenger (Sallallahu ‘Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman.” [Recorded by Ibn Maajah.] 

  86. Concerning the Hadith about Ibn Al Zubair hitting his wife, as usual you omit the complete Hadith Moq and made it seem as if the Prophet approved any assault against women. Read onto the Hadith a little bit further would you?

    P.s No I am not crying victim. But I do see you are getting a dose of your own medicine from TE and as usual downplay any evidence those who oppose you

  87. @MrsB,

    I summarized the Hadith to make a point and not to flood the site with long pages of hadith, but I did not hide it. I gave the Hadith number and the book number. Anyone with simple skills of copying the book number and hadith number in a google search.

    By the way the prophet did not punish Ibn Al Zubair. He sided with him on the issue the women came to complain about on top of her beating. Which is to seperate and return to her old husband. He told her she had to have sexual intercourse with Ibn Zuhair (the man who beat her) before she can return to her old husband, since they were divorced 3 times. He did not care about her beating, but rather her sex life and returning her to the wife beater.

    Now, how is that for providing you with the ugly details about the ownership of women, which could be found throughout the hadith books.

    Note TE referenced an entire article without copying it. Muslim Pal referenced pages of books with simple sentences. No one accused them of twisting information. I simply went to their references and read them. Learn how to read….

    You constantly argue that people have hidden agendas. Every discussion here never goes well with you, since you are focused on making every debate personal. It is never about the actual facts, always about others.

    Like I told you in our previous discussions, I gave you some curtsy before and let such behavior pass, but you are a despicable person. I will not offer you such curtsy anymore.

  88. The discussion is too long and takes hours. I read all you’ve written.

    They(your wives) are clothing for you and you are clothing for them.
    http://quran.com/2/187

    Wendy
    Agreed. And I love every non-Muslim to be that open-minded as you. But do not neglect that in Islam men are obliged to provide for his family alone, where as earnings of women are for themselves. A man have to expend all of his earnings(including inheritance come to him) but women doesn’t need to spend money for the family. Cuz of that for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.

    MoQ
    Are you really kidding me guy? look at below:
    روي عن أبي جعفر أنه الضرب بالسواك
    It is narrated from Abi Ja’far and eventually from the holy prophet SAWAWS.

  89. @Muslim Pal,

    I am not kidding you. What that says is the following:

    “And Ibn Jafar Said that is the beating with the Miswak”

    It is not a narration of a saying of the prophet. It was an addition to the narration of the Hadith which originally did not include that bit. This was sited as an opinion of Ibn Jafar on what is a light beating.

    If this what you call a narration then every book of opinion by a scholar becomes a hadith.

  90. Moq said
    “You constantly argue that people have hidden agendas. Every discussion here never goes well with you, since you are focused on making every debate personal. It is never about the actual facts, always about others.”

    Like I told you in our previous discussions, I gave you some curtsy before and let such behavior pass, but you are a despicable person. I will not offer you such curtsy anymore.”

    The only one who is making anything personal here is you Moq. Your choice of words shows that I have exposed your weakness until you have chosen divert to name calling. Man up and read properly what I have wrote, there was nothing personal going on until you decided to attack me. I simply informed TE of your atheism since she seems to think you’re Christian. And yes I sincerely believe that you do not play fair when reciting Hadith and Quran.

    Again in the Al Zubair case, care to explain why in Islam once a woman is divorced three times she can no longer marry her ex husband unless she marries another man and have had sexual intercourse with him? Why would a woman want to return to a guy who so readily divorces her (3 times to boot)?

  91. Calling me despicable is not beneath you Moq. I will just add it to the list of name calling you’ve given me; naive convert, evil convert, insane…i am not a convert by the way. Bear in mind, I did not start this aggressive childish conversation.

  92. MoQ

    Look. This is narrated from our fifth Imam, Abi Ja’far AS and he has finally narrated from the prophet SAWAWS. Come on this hadith is available at http://lib.eshia.ir/12023/3/80

  93. By the way in the Hadith there was no evidence to suggest that the prophet sided with Al Zubair and allowed wife beating.

    I took the liberty of copying from sunniforum to answer your butchered half Hadith.
    Rifa’a divorced his wife whereupon ‘AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. ‘Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s Apostle came, ‘Aisha said, “I have not seen any woman suffering AS MUCH AS THE BELIEVING WOMEN. Look! Her skin IS GREENER THAN HER CLOTHES!.” When ‘AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment, ‘Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa’a.” Allah’s Apostle said, to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa’a unless ‘Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” Then the Prophet saw two boys with ‘Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that ‘AbdurRahman said, “Yes.” The Prophet said, “You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,” u.

    In the above Hadith, there are few points to notice and mention:

    1- The man failed to follow Noble Verse 4:34 which was sent by Allah Almighty to protect women from harmfull men.

    2- The woman was trying to get back with her first husband. In Islam, if a woman gets divorced or divorces herself from her husband through the Islamic court by “Khala'”, then the only way she can get back with her husband, or her husband gets back to her is by HER MARRYING ANOTHER PERSON, HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HIM, AND THEN GET A DIVORCE FROM HIM. This is to guarantee that divorce would not be a joke among Muslims.

    3- The woman was claiming that her second husband was sexually no good. The husband disputed that, and brought his two sons from another marriage as a proof that he can perform sex. The Prophet peace be upon him then told the woman “by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow”.

    4- Aisha’s opinion about the woman’s bruise doesn’t prove or disprove anything. She got angry because she saw another woman badly beaten, which is perfectly fine and acceptable. But her emotions and opinions are not Islamic Verdicts! 

    Many authentic hadith proof that Islam liberated women and made them free. See hadith Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138 & 2139. 

    In ‘Sahih Muslim, Book 018, Number 4251’ we see that a woman in islam is even allowed to take from her husband’s property without his knowledge if he falls below this basic level of supporting her. Also Umar Ibn khattab told the prophet that ‘women had the upperhand over men in Medina in’ in Sahih Bukhari,Volume 7, Book 62, Number 119’ , the prophet showed a smile after hearing this. 

    This clearly proofs that aicha’s reaction was based on emotions, which is normal and perfectly fine. We also have to notice that in pre-islamic (before islam) time women were depressed by the arabs, Islam came to liberate those women and to give them many rights. Unfortunately some muslim men (still today) fail to follow the true message of Islam, instead of this they follow their evil (pagan) cultural practices and customs! , this has nothing to do with Islam! Islam honours women and clearly fobids the cruel beating of wives!

    Secondly the hadith tells only one part of the incident, it doesn’t mention anything about the decision made by the prophet after this incident , simply because only one part of the story is known and written down. So it’s rediculous to say that Islam and the prophet allowed wife beating, as a matter of fact the opposite is true!

    Noble Verses and Sayings about the prohibition of wife beating:

    The following Noble Verses and Sayings from the Noble Quran and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him respectively seem to very well support the above interpretation:

    “…Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them…”(The Noble Quran, 2:231)

    “If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men’s souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.” (The Noble Quran, 4:128)

    Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: “I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.” 
    (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)

    Narrated Mu’awiyah ibn Haydah: “I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.” 
    (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)

    “on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.” (The Noble Quran, 4:19)

    Riyad as Saliheen, chapter 34, ‘treating women well’ Nr. 279. Iyas ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Abi Dhubab reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Do not beat the female slaves of Allah.” Then ‘Umar came to the Prophet and said, “The women have become bold towards their husbands,” and so he made an allowance to beat them. Then many women surrounded the family of the Messenger of Allah to complain about their husbands. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “The people of the household of Muhammad have surrounded by many women who are complaining about their husbands. Those men are not among the best of you.”

    Another authentic version in Sahih Ibn Hibban (9:491) adds that the Prophet then revoked the dispensation.

    Also the prophet did never beat any of his wives

    Aaishah (Radhiallahu ‘Anha) said: “Allaah’s Messenger (Sallallahu ‘Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman.” [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee graded it Saheeh.]

    As muslims we have to follow the example of the prophet (who never beat his wives !)

    “You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and who remember Allah much” Surah Ahzab [33:21]

    Riyad as Saliheen, chapter 34, ‘treating women well’, nr 278. Abu Hurayra stated, “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, ‘The most perfect of believers in belief is the best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women.'” [at-Tirmidhi]

    Riyad as Saliheen, chapter 34, ‘treating women well’, nr. 275. Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “A believing man should not hate a believing woman. If he dislikes something in her character, he should be pleased with some other ­ or another­ trait of hers.” [Muslim]

    Riyad as Saliheen, chapter 34, ‘treating women well’, nr. 273. Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Treat women well. Woman was created from a rib. The most crooked part of the rib is the top part. If you try to straighten it, you will break it. If you leave it, it remains crooked. So treat women well.”

    His statement that “the best of you are the best in their behavior towards their wives, and I am the best of you in my behavior towards my wives” shows that

    (1) wife-beaters are the worst men and
    (2) no Muslim wife-beater can possibly claim to imitate the Prophet , although Allah Most High said to imitate him : {Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last Day, and remembereth Allah much} 
    (Quran 33:21).

  94. “I simply informed TE of your atheism since she seems to think you’re Christian. And yes I sincerely believe that you do not play fair when reciting Hadith and Quran.”

    You did not just inform here of that, which would have been fine. You insinuate that I have hidden agenda. It is a passive aggressive behavior that you always exhibit here. Read your comment again.

    “Calling me despicable is not beneath you Moq.”
    If you continue to call me deceitful, then there is only one thing that I can think of to describe you “despicable person”. It is the truth about what I feel about you and your behavior. Just being honest.

  95. You assumed that I insinuate some sort of hidden agenda on your part. I merely informed her of your atheism and the viewpoint and intentions that would converged together with your ideology. As for deceit, I have seen Hadith being posted by you without a proper explanation and only the ‘bad’ parts explained. Go figure!

  96. I hope everyone can agree to disagree. I don’t think that anyone here is in favor of wife beating, which is the most important thing, and I have never encountered a single person on this forum who I suspected to be a bad person.

    But, MoQ, a favor if you would care to oblige sometime (and obviously it is understood if you care not to). As I said, my Arabic is The Worst and I admit defeat quickly (as you’ve seen) on the aspects where knowledge of Arabic must be deeper, so when it comes to the particulars of the language in the Quran I tend to go with the sources I find that put in doubt and seek general consensus from unbiased parties (when possible), and I think the other big example that I encounter and cannot remark on is this.

    In short: 24:31, do you believe this certainly a variant of khimar as in the headscarf, or variant of khimar as in something that covers?

    TE

  97. @MrB,

    You claim I did part of a hadith, then you use part of a verse in your long argument.

    ““…Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them…”(The Noble Quran, 2:231)”

    Note this is just one fifth of the actual verse. The verse discusses the case when a divorced wife is retained for her Audah. The translation in jest “do not keep these women to do them harm”. It has nothing to do the verse about wife beating and it describes a totally different situation. Did you even bother to read the entire verse?

    Don’t you think you just committed hypocrisy after you complained and accused me of deceit, then turn around and do the same thing? Just saying!!

    By the way the Hadith I referenced is Bukhari Book 7 Hadith 715. Everyone can go read it. Also the Quran, which is more important than Hadith, allows the beating of women in clear terms in 4:34.

    As always you have long articles which try to explain everything away even when it is very clear what words mean.

  98. @TE,

    I think it references the head covering covering the chest also.
    I have seen some Indonesian fashion where the women follow the requirement exactly like the verse indicates. They have a very large head scarf fashioned so it covers the top of the woman’s chest.

    In my opinion fashion is different in the old days, so if you want to follow Islamic rulings it is better to go with the intent of covering the intended body parts. So cover the chest, which today can be done with a garment much more efficiently. Also cover the hair with a cloth, that can be a hijab scarf.

    I hope this helps.

  99. MoQ,

    Thank you. It does. I have heard a number of different interpretations, so I keep trying to gather more on the rare occasion I meet an Arabic speaker who does not have a bias on that matter, or who not is a scholar or imam that would bring extraneous information into the answer. I appreciate it.

    TE

  100. @Muslim pal,

    I read your last reference. I assume you meant this bit:

    “وقيل: في معنى غير المبرح أن لا يقطع لحما، ولا يكسر عظما وروي عن أبي جعفر أنه الضرب بالسواك.”

    That translates to teh following:

    “and it was said in the meaning of none aggressive (beating). It will not cut the flush nor break a bone. And it was said of ibn Jafar it is the beating with the swak (tooth brush)”

    Again, no where in that reference does it say the prophet said “beat women with a Miswak”. It is not there and all of the references have the same weak reference to it without a specific narration.

  101. It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise – they are the foundation of the Book – and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, “We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord.” And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
    http://quran.com/3/7

  102. MoQ

    Assumed you confusing Abi Ja’far with a scholar.
    This is narrated by our fifth Imam AS, so there is no differences between the narrations of our Iamams and the prophet SAWAWS exactly like Sunnis which have narration of companions authenticated. Cuz all of those rooted from the prophet himself.

  103. Ok in order to correct my ‘hypocrisy’ here is the full verse.
    231
    . When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their (‘Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah’s Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah’s favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

    Clearly the verse has everything to do with the proper treatment of ones wife and Allah has forbidden men to keep their wives whilst intending to harm them. Please do not assume that you’re the only one who has read the Quran.

  104. I am going to say my 2 cents.

    Men beat women all around the world and this is not a new concept. In the western world, we see this everytime.

    Before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (saas), the arabs used to treat the women very badly as they do now (back to ignorance days). So then along comes the revelation NOT – I say again NOT to mistreat the women. Since men will anyway beat women because the nature of men is thus, the Quran came to the rescue of women informing them NOT to beat women but if it comes to that (because of his nature) then do so in this way …. The way is that it is almost not there: there should be no marks, should not cut the skin, should not be in the face, should be as a last resort, should not harm …etc. Now tell me where does it say that man can beat the woman to a pulp?

    Islam is the ONLY religion in the face of the earth that tells men NOT to beat the wife, while considering the nature of men and how to treat the women in dignity and honor. While there is a verse telling men to “beat” their wives – this verse is not about the women but about men on NOT to beat their wives savagely. There are countless verses and hadiths that tell us to be good to women.

    We see godless men beating the women into vegetables left and right and get away with it or just fined, while muslim men (and I mean those who follow Quran and Sunnah) are fearful of beating their wives because they might go over the limit set for them by Allah swt.

    Figure it out.

  105. Sarah’s comment,
    LIKED

  106. There is no limitation for women in Islam. In Iran today we are voting while the number of women is much higher than men among eligible voters. It means women are choosing Islamic republic president for men. I am speaking of a country in which serving wines and building brothels is illegal and Hijab is obliged. We do respect women as or even higher than men.

  107. Men beat women in cultures/religions/societies where women are considered second rate human beings. We have made some progress in Europe, (but the old religious prejudices still linger) and consequently have less abuse and rape than in countries where the status of women is firmly beneath that of men, (like in countries which are ruled by Islam or other misogynist religions).
    There is a clear correlation in countries today: The more religion and the more firmly women are considered lesser humans than men, the more the abuse, rape and even killing of women.
    The more developed and secular a country is, and the more equality for women, the less rape, abuse and killing of women.
    This is fact.

    So although countries like Saudi Arabia do not give out dependable statistics, we can infer, that, considering the slave-like status of women, and the absolute misogynism of the theocracy, women will be abused, raped and murdered on a shocking scale. It is therefore commendable and brave to see that a lot of Saudis are standing up and fighting this evil done to women. It gives hope for the future, that there may be a future where Saudi Arabia becomes part of the civilized world.

  108. Muslim Pal, are you inferring that the elections in Iran are actually honest, fair and free? You really should know better.

  109. I would like to add the Prophet saw TRUE last sermon and not the one being vehemently championed here by Islam critic who took it from Tabari (not a hadith narrator but merely a historian just like In Ishaq).

    His final sermon
    After praising, and thanking Allah
     he said:
    “O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.
    O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn ‘Abd’al Muttalib (Prophet’s uncle) shall henceforth be waived…
    Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion
    . He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
    O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women
    , but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.
    O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah)
    , fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety (taqwa)
     and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood
    . Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
    Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.
    O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN
     and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.
    All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people”.
    (Reference: See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.)

    Nothing about wives or women being compared to prisoners or domestic animals.

    Tabari has been known to fabricate hadith and his work are rejected by Muslim scholars but are lauded by Orientations. One of his “hadith” that totally contradict with the Prophet’s teaching is ” “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us”

    Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 69

    Sufficient to say that “hadith” narrated by Tabari are irrelevant.

  110. No matter how many times you say, men and women are not and will never be equal. We are created for different roles and functions. Secular or not, men will always be men and women will always be women. In secular countries where they force these genders to be same, they are facing many issues such as domestic viloence, kids doing drugs, depression, incest, anxiety attacks, illict relationships, divorce …etc, cheating, gambling all other vices you can think of. (oh yes these can happen in non secular countires too but nothing compared to the west).

    By the way, the slogan that men are equal to women is not really enacted in the west. Women are portrayed as sex symbols in billboards, magazines, ads …etc. They are forced to dress up for men, to serve men …etc. Why are men not made out to be the same. Why are men not in bikinis in billboards? Why don’t they wear high heels while women wear suit and tie? Why are men not in full make up when going to work while women carry brief cases and portfolios? Why men do not wear mini dresses while women wear jeans? So – no, men are not really equal are they? Women hestiate to take certain jobs that are not too “feminine” unless they are desparate.

    When we are forced to do things outside of our nature, we have to pay the consequences. Lets not kid ourselves into thinking we are equal.

  111. I agree that there are some differences in men and women, biologically speaking, religiously speaking, et cetera. But I hate to hear it spoken of with the connotation that we must therefore be weaker and lesser creatures. Average differences does not mean we are not equal, no matter what your philosophy is. A difference does not equate to inequality.

    Yes, there are things like men on average being stronger. This is the example I most often hear. But let us remember that this is never a rule. We live next to a very nice young woman whose obvious toughness and strength strikes fear into the heart of my poor, dear husband, and I am thrilled about it. She’s a constant reminder when he gets too confident about the God/nature-given advantages of his gender. It’s not a rule, and it does not mean inequality. As a Muslim woman, it is within my rights not to marry at all if I don’t want to, not to answer to anyone, to work for myself and take none of the protection or provisions offered to me, or to seek out a man worthy of my allegiance. And, for some Muslim women, this is exactly what they choose to do.

    I realize the problem is when we get into laws and cultures that make it extraordinarily difficult to choose this path or to be viably self-sufficient. And for this, I agree. I have my religion, but I can’t fathom a working system wherein everyone is expected to conform to the believes and laws of any theology, or where someone like our neighbor, who could probably rip a man’s arm off and throw it over her house, would have to pretend that she is inferior to a weaker husband because we don’t recognize exceptions to the rule. Similarly, I refuse to side with my husband on any debate where he did not present adequate logic over my reasoning, and a woman who has the power to be successful leaps and bounds over her husband should be celebrated. The diverseness of humanity and of women is not a one-way ticket to entropy.

  112. Sarah, that is a sad comment you made about men and women not being equal. They are indeed equal. They are different but equal. All those things you said are happening in Islamic countries. The big difference is that in secular countries the man who commits these acts against other people including his wife or children will go to jail and the woman will not have to suffer for it. In fact she can escape an abusive relationship and be looked after by the government if she has no other financial resources. That’s a big difference.

    Muslim Pal … you said “Wendy
    Agreed. And I love every non-Muslim to be that open-minded as you. But do not neglect that in Islam men are obliged to provide for his family alone, where as earnings of women are for themselves. A man have to expend all of his earnings(including inheritance come to him) but women doesn’t need to spend money for the family. Cuz of that for the male, what is equal to the share of two females”

    Well, every man may be obliged but not every man does. I know Muslim women who work outside the home and contribute money to the family. That’s how it should work when you have equality. Now as for inheritance … isn’t it sad that you have an unmarried or widowed woman who get’s a smaller share of an estate when her father dies? In Canada it is not unusual to have a Muslim husband and wife both working outside the home and with the man doing his share inside the home. That’s a good marriage and a good partnership.

    One thing I will say is that this issue in ME Islamic countries (as well as other non-Islamic countries) is more of a cultural issue rather than religious.

  113. Wendy,

    Yes, that is one problem, in order for us to justify the rights either couple has over the other, both must provide them. There should be no obedience to the man if she is not well treated. They do not owe each other their end of the bargain if the other does not hold up theirs.

    And, let me add that, when both couples are working, women have an advantage in this way. She is entitled to some of her husband’s earnings, but she can keep hers for her own purposes, to save or spend or throw out the window. When the paychecks come in, hers is hers, and some of his is hers, also. That’s not too bad, but I wonder how often this actually works out.

    TE

  114. @ Wendy

    Yea, I do admit “that’s a good marriage and a good partnership.” But you know better that rules differ from amour. Every Muslim man I’ve seen do their share inside home(e.g. my own father__who is a clergy also).

    Look, this is a rule that men are obliged to provide the family where as women are not.

    Btw, you ought to observe the majority to set rules as Islam does. I mean the majority of men are responsible for providing the family or juvenile of the sexuality are about to but women have no monetary obligation.

  115. Muslim Pal … I think that Sharia law is in place because women are considered property and that the husband is boss and guardian of her. That in itself is wrong IMHO. I don’t know of any Muslim families where the wife is working outside the home where she doesn’t contribute to household expenses. Keeping the conversation about KSA … women are generally NOT ALLOWED to work so the husband has to pay the bills. In fact many families are suffering because the husband does not make enough to support the family in a good way and this also contributes to domestic violence.

  116. You just confusing Sharia with damned KSA. I repeat KSA is NOT Islam. Islam allow women to work for herself not expecting her to contribute earnings even to her kids.

    PS this is important that Sharia opt men to serve family. And women does work for herself.

  117. Re-read my post. I clarified that women not working was a KSA issue. I will never bend on the Sharia law issue. It might have some good points but for the most part it is not beneficial in an equal way. The only governments that progress are secular ones. I can’t think of one successful country that is governed by religious law.

  118. Sarah, for you I will put it as simply as possible.

    Religous countries = women second place to men = no protection for women = horrendous abuse, rape and killing of women

    Secular countries = women equal, equal rights = protection for women = a lot less abuse, rape, and killing of women.

  119. Well put, AA.

  120. Sarah women are equal but not the same .Women have the same rights as men no more and no less. You said in western countries women and girls are used as sex symbols, as long as they are not forced to do the job whats the problem…btw there are man wearing dresses and high heels and sometime bikinis if they feel happy why not… Lets be so tolerant to let everybody live his life.

    But defenitly every humen has the same rights…. and a man is not superior… for sure not

  121. Sarah, you complain about western style of living, seeing a naked body is not obzene we all look nearly the same….. What is really obzene is beheading, cutting arms and legs, hanging . stoning, cruzifying.,,,public,executions, wichhunting, lashing,,,,,,,,,,etc…..we dont do this in the west………….

  122. Women and men are different in many sense but they are equal and complete one another. So Islamically speaking, it is wrong to say that men are superior than women. Might I add secular law is whole different thing from atheist law. As different as New Zealand and China. TE, you have said it best. Thank you!

  123. I think AA have oversimplified the state of women in secular countries. It has very less to do with less religious=more equality. The thing that stands out more is the richer and more educated a community = the less likely violence and crime would take place. This is self evidence by looking at Finland, a rich, high income per capita and highly educated nation. Whereas if one were to look at China, another ‘secular’ country, the situation is completely different. It is only understandable that the more impoverished a country, the more likely inequality and violence will occur.

  124. Please tell me what is atheist law? Apart from the fact that I never heard of it how is it different from secular law/governance?

  125. Read up on State Atheism in Albania, Soviet Union etc whereas religion are all forbidden and punishable by death.

    I will be the first to state that most Islamic countries should have a look at their holy text and return back to its original teaching that favours equality although not uniformity as being lauded in western countries. Muslim leaders should have a look at the historic stories in the quran that clearly shows that men do not hold a monopoly on leadership as in the Queen Balqis. A great female ruler of Sheba who had men as her advisers.

  126. Interesting…I am Australian, and had a Saudi boyfriend who was here on a scholarship. Anyway, he ended up hitting me repeatedly after an argument, and said he was going to kill me. The next day he sent me an apology message, saying sorry but i made him do it. What is with this culture? He still owes me over $2,000 but I never want to see him again.

  127. Wendy said I can’t think of one successful country that is governed by religious law.

    What about my country(the most religious country in the world)?

    ange bel said seeing a naked body is not obzene we all look nearly the same.

    Is this the real humanism to put your body in hugs of ugly men? Is this the salvation and liberalism? I’ve never heard such things before!!!

  128. muslim pal your country is really not a success with all the oppressing of people hoe think differently or believe differently, hanging homosexuals, minors and so on and so on …..

  129. AB,

    Try to know that wasn’t your question…

    Look at this search in Google:
    http://www.google.com/search?output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=iran+turnout&btnG=

    This is the democracy we claim.

  130. Yes there are differences between men and women. Men are very emotional. They are usually the gender getting angry and hitting others, starting wars and driving aggressively. Getting all upset about “disrespect” and “honor” and then committing an act of violence to deal with it.

    That said if a woman commits one of these emotional crimes I think the law should deal equally.

    No country that tells women how they must dress and behave is a democracy.

  131. No country that tells women how they must dress and behave is a democracy.

    The answer:
    Democracy means the government of people and Iranian yesterday proved the democracy exists in Iran.

  132. muslim pal is the election in iran really free ??? i dont think so, but would like to see it differently…i hope it for the people

  133. free ???

    Sorry for you and others who see the world in CNN.

  134. Sandy, great comment.

    Muslim Pal, you think iran is a place where people are free? Are you for real? Women are not free. (men are not either) Can a woman wear what she wants? No. Do you know that women are raped inside your prisons so that they can be killed as”non-virgins”?
    No freedom of press, no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no freedom of sexuality (homosexuals get executed), rigged ”elections”, and the list goes on and on.
    Do you really think we do not know what goes on inside your country?

    Oh, and there are more sources of information besides CNN. But maybe you do not know that coming from such a restricted oppressive country.
    And do you really think you are the only Iranian around? I know quite a few Iranians. They have quite different opinions about freedom in Iran.

    Sandy made a brilliant comment, ”No country that tells women how they must dress and behave is a democracy

    And this ridiculous idea that men should tell women what to wear and how to behave is proof that religions were made up by primitive, insecure, underdeveloped men. Male humans.
    No all knowing, all powerful deity would come up with such nonsense.
    The suppression of women has lowly, pathetically insecure male primate written all over it.

  135. An modern enlightened democracy has basic human rights- and protection of minority rights, that even a majority can’t vote away. Otherwise you have “mobocracy”.

  136. Muslim Pal,

    Religion, most especially Islam, cannot be a good model of governance for modern times because it fails to imagine situations in which non-Muslim citizens could be trusted to govern a Muslim country. Conversely, democracies trust their citizens irrespective of their faith.

    Can you name just one muslim country where under their constitution a non-muslim is eligible or allowed to be a president or prime minister???

  137. Muslim Pal … your country is far from being progressive and/or successful. As I said before … I’ve never seen one Islamic country that fits that description. It is only found in secular countries.

  138. IMHO The matter it is that people of a country want it. That it is true about Iran with 72.7% voters.

  139. can they choose something different ????

  140. like what?

  141. It’s promising that the most liberal candidate won big. But too bad they didn’t let true liberals on the ballot. When you don’t allow others to run- it isn’t a free election.

  142. Run to do what exactly? Don’t remember he is a cleric still.

  143. Can you name just one muslim country where under their constitution a non-muslim is eligible or allowed to be a president or prime minister???

    I could ask the same question when it comes to America. When Barack Obama was elected as President there was/is a huge connundrum about him supposedly being Muslim and all. So what if he is a Muslim, which i doubt, does it matter since he was elected via democracy? Please show me one non Muslim country where a Muslim is even close to being a president.

  144. That is a very sexist comment you’ve made Sandy. Not all men are as you’ve described. I wonder why it is perfectly fine for men to be generalized in such a way. If you want to fix the gender equality issue then stop blaming men or women. Find a middle ground as in the Quran.

  145. An modern enlightened democracy has basic human rights- and protection of minority rights, that even a majority can’t vote away. Otherwise you have “mobocracy”.

    Please don’t tell me you’re talking about France or Belgium and other European countries… From what I’ve seen, the majority in those region are steadily voting away the rights of Muslim minorities. No I am not backing up any Islamic countries, as I’ve said they need to literally turn back to the true teachings of Islam.I guess the secular countries are becoming mobocracies as well…

  146. Moe
    Senegal is 95% Muslim majority but from 1961 it’s president was a Christian. Former deputy president of Iraq Tariq Aziz was a Christian.

  147. Mrs. B. That was meant to be tongue in cheek as women as the “emotional” gender is always the excuse to oppress women, when truthfully men are at least as emotional.

    I agree even modern enlightened democracies struggle with minority rights at times. People must be ever vigilant.

  148. Sandy

    No country that tells women how they must dress and behave is a democracy.

    What do you mean by democracy?
    i. Is democracy ridiculing the prophet of more that 1b people where as you can say nothing against the holy doomed Zionists?
    ii. Is democracy humiliating other races as USA people are all ultraracists?
    http://www.rt.com/usa/majority-americans-racist-poll-378/
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/bill-quigley/14-shocking-facts-that-prove-us-criminal-justice-system-is-racist
    iii. Is democracy taking Muslims’ scarves off by the gov. forces as you see in Europe?
    iv. Is democracy spying on your own citizens?
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/16/us-usa-security-idUSBRE95F00B20130616
    v. Is democracy waging wars or better Crusades against Muslim countries to hold Israel with name of “War on Terror”?
    .
    .
    .

    What do you mean by the name of democracy and secularism really?

  149. Aha then I apologize Sandy. I would say that I am just against sexism against our male counterparts as well as women. I could get emotional, my husband could get emotional. After all we are just human, not angels or a stable chair. It is when, as you said, the generalization that women are unstable emotionally is used to oppress us.

  150. Muslim pal hi may i answer aswell ???

    1. You mean the danish caricaturics it was published by a small newspaper … first nobody was forced to look at….yes this is a part of democracy for me btw i have seen worther pictures about jews
    2. some people in the states are racists yes…yes i think the justice sythem should be changed
    3. yes, you can wear whathever you want but no burka or niqab and i agree with that.
    4. no
    5, no
    There is still a long way to go….things will change as they changed before

  151. ange bel,
    I am glad to see ur retreating…

    I am not an anti-American or anti-Westerners. I love and do advocate the truth and wherever I found it.

    Look, I am not an extremist towards the world changes. And I told you the realities occurring in the West as you know better. I am not here for challenging that it is work of stupid one. You are not that scrupulous to observe politics or to discuss about Islamic countries. Say it cuz you don’t even know the different between Jews and Zionists. You don’t even know you’ll still find universities in the West wearing scarves not permitted in. You don’t even know Facebook,+Google, Yahoo and whatever sites you think of are holy & submissive spies for CIA.

    It’ll take no much time we beholding US states dissipated as Texas has stepped up towards some month ago.

  152. I’ll take the religious establishment over ‘western democracy’ (corporate governance) anyday. I’ll take Khamanei over Obama any day.

    Not because I’m religious but because the political position Iran has taken is a moral one worth every democratic cliche that the West peddles like a pimp.

    The establishment as usual willing to pimp themselves to keep their jobs.
    __________________________________________
    Above is not my says…
    This is a comment by a westerner I think, about Irans election and government found in http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=iran%2Blegitimacy%2Belection&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Firanian-elections-true-legitimacy-or-the-countrys-achilles-heel-15146&ei=G429UbuGLsfStAb2l4DwDA&usg=AFQjCNGBqkK5UIXiZlW4pzFV-bXASm1z0Q&bvm=bv.47883778,d.Yms

  153. Do you mean it will only be a matter of time before states start seceding?

    I’ve been waiting for Texas and most of the south to secede since childhood. Every now and again, a few of the states get angry about something and threaten to leave, but most of them are not even remotely financially viable. If you’re hearing reports where you are that the US is going to break up state-by-state, I would take this with a grain of salt.

  154. muslim pal

    i know that facebook etc-…are used for spying the eu countries are not amused about this—for sure not…normally you should cut of internet and threw away your handy…for not trazing you via gps…but i dont think this is the right place to discuss this 😉 you understand ???

  155. @Muslim pal,

    “Assumed you confusing Abi Ja’far with a scholar.
    This is narrated by our fifth Imam AS, so there is no differences between the narrations of our Iamams and the prophet SAWAWS exactly like Sunnis which have narration of companions authenticated. Cuz all of those rooted from the prophet himself.”

    Sorry for the late reply, Been busy.

    Yes there is a difference. The example you gave in the link you provided was not Ibn Jafar saying “the prophet said”. That would be a narration. Your example specifically stated “Ibn Jafar said”.

    It is such a vague reference and contradicts what you defined as what a hadith is earlier. The contradictions are in your own statement.

    Now for all your rants about Iran being a democracy. There are 3 specific items among many that makes Iran not a democracy I will state only those for the sake of not taking up too much space:

    1) Democracy cannot exist without liberty. When you prohibit others like socialists, secularists, minorities, etc. from organizing and voicing opinions, you do not have liberty.
    2) Iran has an un-elected council approve candidates. There is no democracy when the establishment has such control as to refuse others entry into the political process.
    3) You have an unelected supreme leader, who has unlimited powers over everything in the country and can exercise this power any time he chooses.
    This is the exact opposite of a democratic system.

    You can call the Iranian system any name you like. You can also believe the delusion that you have created heaven on earth in Iran, but you cannot fit the Iranian system within the accepted definition of a democracy.

  156. @TE
    I have no idea when but he West is exhausted for real:

    @ange bel
    you understand as well???
    Then do you mind if you give me your email to extend the circumstance ???

    @MoQ
    Look, hadiths from Sahaba(for Sunnis) and Imams(for Shias) are the right hadiths narrated from the prophet sawaws.

    does it show your real morality? Calling my says “rants”?

    No matter what you define democracy. Democracy means people governance in really which is exercised in Iran.

    1) In Irans parliament we have deputies of all minority existed in Iran like Jews, Christians… We have not that much socialism, liberalism etc, in Iran to hear their voice!!
    2) Wow, In USA presidents are not still elected directly by people!! In Iran for Example we hava more than 1000 presidential candidates, and the majority have nothing to do with politics. You ordering make all of them candidates or excerpting the bests by experts???
    3) The leader must exercise this power in the line of Islam. And have no right to violate Islam where as your stupid England and KSA are still KINGDOM!!

  157. @Muslim pal,

    Why so angry. Chill please otherwise you will add to the stereo type.

    Regarding the hadith thing. I am just holding you to your definitions. You may want to correct your definition if you choose to. But an imam saying something is not the same thing as a prophet saying it. Now if you want to take what an imam says as divine words then that is fine also. It is still not coming out of the prophets mouth.

    ” In Iran for Example we hava more than 1000 presidential candidates, and the majority have nothing to do with politics. You ordering make all of them candidates or excerpting the bests by experts???”

    The issue of having thousands of candidates wanting to be president is not unique to Iran. There are many methods to weed out candidates that do not involve an un-elected commission. For example in the US a candidate has to get a certain number of signatures on a petition before he/she can be eligible to be put on the ballet as a candidate. This process assures that the candidate has a minimal support of voters and thus is a serious candidate. There is also party structures that allow selection of suitable candidates.

    What happens in Iran is you have a committee of people, who are not elected by the populace selecting candidates based on their own agendas. In this election one of the top candidates, Rafsanjani, was eliminated before election. 2 other potential top candidates Mousavi and Karroubi were under house arrest and automatically not eligible to run for office.

    The country has arrested 1000’s of political activists after the previous election. Never-mind all the executions that followed your beloved revolution, which included thousands of monarchy loyalists, socialists, thinkers, etc.

    Your leadership has created a political system based on hate. Thirty five years after the revolution, your leadership is still obsessed with slogans and anti western demonstrations. They still maintain a Revolutionary Guard to keep all political dissidents under control. They have maintained an adversarial relationship with most of the world, causing significant economical harm to its people. It seems your revolution is still stuck at the militant phase for what seems to be eternity. The Iranian people should demand its leadership to mature beyond such silliness and move into creating prosperity for its people.

    Iran is not a democracy, it is a theocratic dictatorship run by an un-elected supreme leader. The rest is widow dressing to give simpletons like you the illusion that your voice matters.

  158. muslim pal
    it is
    ange541 @ Hotmail .de

    (Mail address changed to protect commentator from spam. just remove spacings. Moderator)

  159. MoQ said:
    “simpletons like you”

    Thx for showing your discourtesy. Don’t respond to my comments again I have nothing to tell you.

  160. ange bel
    Really appreciate that.

    TE
    I love REUTERS!
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/us-usa-obama-secession-idUSBRE8AD1TA20121114

    Btw in Iran, presidential candidate of Rafsanjani was rejected for his senility and he also admitted it later and hailed Rouhani(the new president of Iran) and said “There is no differences between Rouhani and I”. Moreover Mousavi showed himself a rebel not a suitable candidate by accusing the elections of fake. Karrubi is one who’s garnered the fewest votes in the history of Irans presidential!!

  161. @Muslim pal,

    You do not have to respond, but I will respond and correct the false information you bring here. It is called freedom of expression. Learn to live with it. Although your government does not allow it inside the country.

  162. Freedom of expression is one thing. But who do you think you are to call people who disagree with you as simpletons. Muslim pal sounds far from being one. Get down from your stupid, high and mighty self-loving pedestal and accept people’s view for what they are. Oh and I am not expecting even an ounce of curtsy from you, bring it. Do you really expect everyone to agree with you or else they would be insane or simpletons or even naive? It doesnt matter who you engage with on this blog, you just end up belittling their sanity or intelligence. Pah!

  163. @MrsB,

    U can never stay away from fighting with me.

    I replied to his comment where he says “Your Stupid UK and Saudi”

    I was civil with him throughout his long rants until he did that. Like I own Saudi and UK.

    Again, how I behave with others is not your business. Your mission on this blog has been to look for fights.

    “Get down from your stupid, high and mighty self-loving pedestal and accept people’s view for what they are. Oh and I am not expecting even an ounce of curtsy from you, bring it.”

    Of course you will never get curtsy from me again. You abused all the good will you got before. This last comment is a good example.

    With your IQ level I have to dig a hole, not just get off the pedestal.

  164. Muslim pal,

    Thanks for the link. It is as your article said: it has almost no chance of working. The only thing that happened here was a small amount of citizens from these states signed a petition to get an official response from the government. The same thing happened a few months ago when a lot of people signed a petition to force the government to remark on the possibility of building a Star Wars’ Deathstar.

    In truth, only two of the states on that list have any chance of making it on their own. Every one besides Florida and Texas, I believe, rely on government money more than their own earnings. And, even in Florida and Texas’ case, there is no legal option for them to secede, so the only way this would work is if the government allowed them to go, as they certainly do not have the military strength to take on the rest of the US and seize their independence by force.

    Interesting idea, though, but one I’ve heard about since I was a kid, and it never goes anywhere.

  165. Although, yes, sorry–if the US has a huge, catastrophic meltdown, then I suppose anything could happen.

  166. @TE,

    Muslim Pal is actually using the US allowing Americans to exercise their democratic rights to petition their government as a negative against the country’s democracy.Very ironic isn’t it.

    And of course this is a minority, the petitions will not be enacted. However, they minority gets their voice heard.

  167. “And of course this is a minority, the petitions will not be enacted. However, they minority gets their voice heard.”

    Yes. I spent most of my life in Kentucky, where such minorities definitely have a soapbox on every corner and an op-ed piece in every local paper whining about secession and similar nonsense. I guess now the rest of the country has to hear it. Sorry, guys.

  168. @MrsB

    MoQ called my says “rants” right before what I call UK(anyway I have called uk stupid not no one else!). No matter. Incivility found anywhere.
    Plz don’t bother yourself.

    @ TE

    Agreed, but I attempting to convince s.o. that US and Europe has not a better condition that Muslim countries by protesting against imprisoning, elicit backing of some countries,monetary problem, austerity measures, reduced salaries and so on.

  169. Too funny. Now the word Rant is causing offense.

    Let’s see the definition from the Urban dictionary since the word is used in slang when it comes to social media and it’s commonly used:

    “Rant: To speak aggressively about something. or to take your own tangent about a subject and talk for a long time in a passionate manner. ”

    You have been aggressive in your attacks on other countries like Saudi, the US, the West, etc. In many cases you did not leave just at the countries, but their people.

    Now Muslim Pal, You have been taken many tangents in this discussion. You spoke about everything but the actual topic of teh article. Iran, the evil west, the Shiia vs Suni divide, states leaving the union, etc.

    You spoke for a long time. Actually days by now with many comments.

    You also were passionate in your discussions.

    Your comments fit all the criteria of ranting. Yet you get angry for someone to point it out to you.

    I say grow thicker skin.

  170. @ MoQ
    I hate challenging you. Plz don’t keep it on. Pardon me if I bothered you. You are right I must grow thicker skin to face such insults when talking with a westerner or secularist. I was spontaneously going on what the others have discussed about.

    @ MrsB & @ TE @ Sandy @ Wendy
    It was a good experience to me to talk with you and exchange info with such open-minded persons like you. I love to have your email if I deserve to be in touch with you.

  171. Muslim pal
    It’s alright, it didn’t bother me at all to pull his peg down or two. I am just sick of seeing his condescending ways with people who disagrees with him on this blog. Have been in the same boat as you awhile ago but this mommy ain’t accepting no more bullying.

  172. Thx. Waiting for you all

  173. This post is about how young Saudi people stand up to fight for women’s rights. Iran’s political situation is off topic. Also, personal attacks are not allowed on this forum. Please take this to the Debate page.
    Moderator

  174. @MrsB,

    “Have been in the same boat as you awhile ago but this mommy ain’t accepting no more bullying.”

    Ever since I known you, you did not sound like a mommy (i.e. an adult). Rather you sound like a back biting teenager. Every-time you come here you take a snipe at someone then claim you are the victim. You actually did it 3 times with me on this thread alone. Each of them initiated by you. The difference is I do not let you get it away with it anymore.

    Grow up….

    @Muslim pal,

    You took offense at a term that is not insulting. It has nothing to do with secularism, it has to do with facts. You wanted to go on and own with rants, and when someone states the facts that you are ranting, you got upset. Yes, grow a thick skin, the internet provides freedoms for others. People with differing opinions are not thrown in jail before you hear them.

  175. This is probably a pretty naive thing to say, having read these comments for a year or two, but I can’t think of any time that I saw a comment that I suspected came from a bad person. We all have different perspectives, different values, different intellects, and trying to get a point across without causing some form of miscommunication or offense over text is a hard enough thing as it is.

    This was about the women and a campaign to protect them from harm, and I believe that all of us support it, whether or not we agree on the details. I can’t speak for MoQ, but anyone can scroll up to see our little fight, and then scroll down to see him fulfilling a request of mine. And I was not being facetious when I said I still think he’d be an excellent person to have some deeper conversations with, and his opinions still interest me. We don’t have to necessarily make enemies here or say things to hurt each other, especially when we all hope for the right outcomes, even if the way we’d get there can’t be agreed upon, so I hope some of us can lose the animosity.

    Muslim pal, you can contact me at tealu1 @ live.com (remove the spaces) if you ever need it.

  176. te
    i agree with you

  177. TE, you’re a better person in handling insults as you’ve dealt Moq very diplomatically. I know the best way is to ignore anyone who thinks only his opinion matters and everyone else’s says are either rants or insane. This kind of person is usually very low in self esteem so uses the advantage of being anonymous on the internet by degrading others. I will take the long abandoned high road and leave this uncivilized narcicist to hmself. Trying to absolve me from my mommy title would be something only a despicable character could fathom.

  178. @MrsB,

    You could not let things just go with TE’s last good message.

    Grow up….

  179. I do believe people are not bounded by your rules and regulations thus have the right to express themselves whenever they choose, so grow up and grow OUT of your narcicistic character.

    Ps. Funny how you accused me of making it a mission on this blog to pick a fight when in this article alone you have picked fights with at least three people including me. As for me, you are the only person I have had the unfortunate luck to have to deal with aggressively.

    “When the healthy pursuit of self-interest and self-realization turns into self-absorption, other people can lose their intrinsic value in our eyes and become mere means to the fulfillment of our needs and desires.”
    ― P.M. Forni, The Civility Solution: What to Do When People Are Rude

  180. You are like my personal troll, you follow me around like a little pet.

    As flattering as that attention is. It is getting boring. Yawn….

  181. Please take any off topic discussion to the debate page.
    Moderator

  182. A Quote For The Ages …

    Respect For Women Is One Of The Greatest Gifts A Father Can Show To A Son — Reverend Martin Luther King

  183. Amen to that quote!

  184. You can always tell a poorly educated person who wants to appear high and mighty by the use of fancy words whose meaning they didn’t even bother to look up. Such people usually want to appear sophisticated without studying too hard and a lot of laughter ensues when the fancy word means anything but what they wanted to say.

    The laughter is all on you, Mrs B. MoQ could not have possibly absolved you of your “Mommy” title even if s/he wanted because “absolve” means “to state formally that somebody is not guilty or responsible for something”. So, according to you, MoQ tried to state formally that you are not guilty or responsible for having the title of a mother?

    For the record, the word is not “absolve” – it is “deprive” or “rob”.

    Do me a favour, will you? Take your head out of the Quran (or your butt, if that’s easier to do) and place a good English dictionary next to the Holy Book that you’re so obsessed with. It is about time you learned to speak like the educated person you pretend to be. If you ever want to be taken seriously in discussions like this, learn something about the English words you use and the right prepositions they go with.

    I don’t even have any idea why I’m teaching you a lesson in correct English but I really hate it when some people’s high-and-mighty attitude is not based on anything, including good language skills. But then unfounded arrogance and bad English are the trademark of the Muslims living in the Gulf, whom you like and defend so much. Deep inside they know they are ignorant peasants whose English is below poor, but on the outside they consider themselves better than anyone nonetheless. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad – especially when they lord it over people from other cultures who have far better manners, far better education and far more efficiency in their little fingers than most of you desert lot will ever manage to find in your entire bodies.

  185. I hope one of the moderators will step in at this point; we’ve apparently been reduced to spouting nonsensical and offensive vitriol.

  186. The topic is about a Saudi campaign against family violence. Please, move all comments not relating to the topic to the debate page. Comments which do not follow the above guidance will be deleted.

    Thank you,

    Moderator #2

  187. New stats out about violence against women. Very interesting report.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22975103

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