It is one thing to be a Muslim but it is yet another thing to practice Islam in Saudi Arabia. The religion and the culture are so intertwined. For example, a woman should not be ashamed of her body, regardless of what religion is practiced. God made women with hips, waist and breasts. Yet the way Islam is practiced in Saudi Arabia is as if they demonize a woman’s body as full of temptation and sin.
For example, much of Saudi Arabia practices strict segregation of men and women. However there are sectors, such as the medical sector, which brings non-related Saudi men and women (and other nationalities) into contact with another. The mixing of the sexes and especially men and women who are not related to one another is viewed as haram (not allowable) on the premise that the men may have uncontrollable urges of lust towards the women. As a “work-around” solution (Bedu’s sarcasm mode is on now) Sheikh Al Obeikan, advisor to the Royal Court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, stated publicly during a televised program that women who come into contact with unrelated men should let the man drink her breast milk so they would then be considered relatives and halal (allowable) to have personal contact. Does that statement imply that a woman can lactose on demand?
Conservatists fear that the Saudi society is so sexually crazed that an inch of a woman’s skin being revealed, such as wearing sandals which show the toes, is an outrage and females who do not cover their face are bad Muslims. Usually “grace” is given to expat females for not covering their head or veiling as for Saudis or for women who looked to be of Arab heritage. However there would be more scrutiny on a woman who was with a Saudi almost like the woman is tested and judged by the way she appeared while with a Saudi. Now when I say tested and judged, that is more by individuals who are conservative in their outlook.
It’s no wonder that young Saudi adults may be confused about relationships in a country where the combinations of culture and religion have so many contradictions. Islam is supposed to be universal but apparently not in Saudi.
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American Bedu 
I don’t find anything extreme in covering or in segregating the sexes.
Sex and the beauty of women are like almost everything else in life – a thing which is a blessing when it is used correctly and a tribulation and evil when it is used incorrectly.
Women (and men) can use their charms and beauty to increase the love between them and their spouse and make it something between the two of them and this will benefit them both…
or they can use them in the streets for the attention of random men and this will neither benefit them or the men in fact it may make a man less pleased with his own wife or it might make a man look on them with lust which is a sin according to the majority of major religions unless of course his eyes fell on her by mistake. It’s a precautionary measure and one which acknowledges that women are attractive and meant to be protected rather than made into eye candy for any man who cares to look.
Sex like beauty can be used for good (within marriage) or evil (outside of marriage) it is not innately an evil thing and that is the understanding of the people of whom you speak.
As for segregation – it severely curbs the problem of illicit affairs and this is a rampant problem in most of the rest of the world. Sex outside of marriage is haraam so not getting to know people of the opposite gender nips that problem in the bud.
If one is ready for marriage then he/she should seek that and it is something good and strongly promoted in Islam. In this case, he/she can meet potential prospects (in a controlled environment) in order to find a person whom they feel is a good match for them.
Men and women aren’t being kept from sex or from each other but rather they are being dissuaded from the unlawful looks and unlawful actions which would become completely lawful and actually promoted within marriage.
It is not necessary to life to have friends of the opposite gender and avoiding that does a lot to prevent potential problems. You can still be kind and helpful but keeping that line drawn and that formality with those of the opposite sex who are not relatives closes the doors to fornication.
In closing, these (segregation and concealing the beauty from the general populous) are the commands of God and if your ultimate goal is to please God and obey Him then these are an excellent step in the right direction. All the social benefits of keeping the sexuality between the spouses and cut off the doors to evils are secondary to the main fact that this is what we are commanded to do by the One who knows best and who deserves to be obeyed.
As for the fatwa you are referring to – it is ridiculous and none of the known scholars of the past had this opinion and none of the known salafi scholars of today support this opinion or promote it. Many have gone out of their way to speak out against this perversion of the religion. Another general practice in Islam is to leave that which is doubtful for that which is not doubtful and this is clearly a doubtful matter at the very LEAST.
@orangeblossom
Beautifully said. I enjoyed that!
Just for the record, the accompanying photo is not of a Saudi woman and rather of an Afghani woman wearing a traditional Afghani burgu’a, so I have no idea what the photo and the post have in common.
As for the fatwa you referred to, many scholars in and out of Kingdom have rejected it outright and he received a lot of criticism in that regard. So raising it up in this context is only an effort to sensationalize your post and drag Saudi Arabia reputation into the mud. And by the way just because other Arab or Muslim countries don’t practice segregation or have their female populous wear full Hejab that doesn’t make them right, and make Saudi Arabia wrong. Islam suppose to be the same every time and everywhere. Saudi Arabia practices Islam by the book and that book happens to be the Quran, sometimes traditions gets in the way, but for the most part it is practiced by the book (FULL STOP).
I have compared the Saudi rules I have come across on Saudi blogs, especially those related to women, to Islamic texts and I can say that almost all of these Saudi rules are based in Quran or some or other Hadith. I quoted on another post extensively the Hadith verses from where the fatwa about breastfeeding came – those verses quote Muhammad himself sanctioning this practice for mature men and married women.
I also showed that in the period following Muhammad, Muslims were more open to change – something which orthodox Islam has lost now.
Saudi Arabia is simply following the word of the book blindly without using brain to change according to the changing times.
There is evidence that much of the rules of Islam originated in pre-Islamic society of Arabia.
This entire argument of Islam vs culture is wrong. There is no religion whose rules are not derived from the culture in which the particular religion originated. Other religions have tried to reform with the changing times. Islam has to reform if it has to survive.
It seems to me that people go for Islam vs culture argument when they feel that Islamic practices are no longer defensible on their own.
Islam itself has modernised in non-Arab countries. India is a very good example of this, Indonesia coming close behind – incidentally, these two countries also add upto the majority of Islamic population in the world.
It is only in the Arab world, especially in Saudi Arabia, where they have attempted to stay close to the rules that originated in the society of 1400 years ago.
To call it “pure Islam” is ridiculous and criminal.
Those who argue that Saudi customs are cultural not Islamic, either have not read the Islamic texts and don’t know about the early Islamic history, or they are deliberately trying to fool those people who don’t know much about the Islamic texts and early Islamic history. Of course I’m not including Carol in this as I feel she has been unknowingly misled by others.
@orangeblossom…
I know we are all entitled to our opinions. I disagree with you. Extreme covering is only a new phenomenon in the Islamic world. that being the case, I am wondering what did Muslim men and women do prior to this covering coming into vogue? (Let me clarify by saying in my opinion extreme being everything as seen above, not just hijab.) When women in the Islamic world did not have to hide under these elaborate coverings was the Islamic world a greater place of sin and sexual freedom? Or have the admonitions in the Qur’an about modesty remained the same and people have interpreted it to mean extreme? Before the coverings were women having more frequent sexual partners? Were men less able to control their urges? If not then why the need for the coverings? And why not the extreme covering for men? Doesn’t the Qur’an talk about modesty for BOTH sexes?
“As for segregation – it severely curbs the problem of illicit affairs and this is a rampant problem in most of the rest of the world. Sex outside of marriage is haraam so not getting to know people of the opposite gender nips that problem in the bud.”
It also severely curbs the ability of people to know how to behave with the opposite sex when they have no interaction, particularly men.
“It is not necessary to life to have friends of the opposite gender and avoiding that does a lot to prevent potential problems. You can still be kind and helpful but keeping that line drawn and that formality with those of the opposite sex who are not relatives closes the doors to fornication.”
From your very good English I am surmising that you are a convert to Islam. I could be wrong but often converts have very strict views such as yours. If you are a convert, have you never had a friend of the opposite sex that did not lead to fornication? Perhaps someone you studied in the library with or a classmate or a person who you liked but to whom you were not attracted? I have had throughout my college years and it is entirely possible to have friends of the opposite sex without it leading to fornication. It is possible to have mixing of the sexes without people grabbing, touching drooling or lusting after each other. Believe it or not people are able to control themselves. Men and women both. If women were sleeping with all the men they were friends with or mixed with they would have no time to do anything else. the point is one doesn’t have to cover all the way to avoid sex or be modest. In fact IMO I think it invites sexual thoughts as everyone knows that many many men like the “leave a little to the imagination” scenario when it comes to sexual attraction.
The idea the women must be covered but men not shows how male oriented (and MAN made) those rules are. People need to see religions for what they are. They are social constructs. They may have their place, but when taken to extreme they are a burden on society.
I must be living in a crazy world. Is it just me or the men around me.
oby,
“I think it invites sexual thoughts as everyone knows that many many men like the “leave a little to the imagination” scenario when it comes to sexual attraction”
What does that mean? So you want to please the men by leaving a little to imagination? When did it become necessary to dress to please the men and their imaginations? Or am I misunderstanding something here. Are you saying that covering up does not give men room to fantizise? (spelling??). Kindly clarify.
“. Saudi Arabia practices Islam by the book and that book happens to be the Quran, sometimes traditions gets in the way, but for the most part it is practiced by the book (FULL STOP).”
And I hear so many people say Saudi does NOT practice true Islam. So which is it?
You know the idea of full covering of women and keeping sexes segregated is nuts when someone actually offers a solution of a woman breastfeeding a man as a good alternative.
Just how many grown men does a poor woman have to breastfeed and why even suggest such a ridiculous thing?
Breastmilk should be for infants. Not kept in reserve for all the strange men who might come into our lives.
So if you’re worried about a man getting a little inappropriate with you, the best thing to do is let him suck on your breast? Good lord that’s not inappropriate at all!
I have to agree with Jerry M, why are men allowed to wander around uncovered and primped up, causing women to lust after them no doubt? Oh that’s right, coz men can do whatever they want! Lucky them…
And what’s this rubbish about women having to be covered so that their husbands don’t see other women and lust after them? They already take on bunch of other wives at will so that’s hardly a valid reason. A woman’s beauty is for herself, not for a man. Also women do have the ability to say no to a man, just because a man wants something doesn’t mean he automatically gets it. Especially when it comes to the opposite sex. How denigrating.
Bedu: This topic choice will have your blog running hot for days!
Now I’d better stop coz I’m in a bit of a confrontational mood and I should know better :).
I’ve had male friends for as long as I can remember. There was never any desire for intimacy with these men nor did they lust after me. These men had/have their own relationships. I have always had jobs where I had to work closely with men and there’s never been a problem. These problems are all imagined in the minds of scholarly men who fight their own crazy demons and then mess with their people because of it.
Nas…
what I am saying is that when it comes to men they can have sexual fantasies even with a woman completely covered. Here in the West we say a lot of men don’t like to see women dressed too provocatively as they don’t find that attractive. (most men I know feel this way). They PREFER a woman to dress a bit less “slutty” because they like to “leave a little to the imagination”. In other words, it is not necessary and in fact quite preferable from a male perspective for a woman to Not display all that God gave her. Covering it up (but not extreme covering like here) makes his mind wander and wonder. That is why I said even if a woman covers it doesn’t stop a man from sexual thoughts. I think it has the reverse effect. It makes him wonder MORE. Hope that is clearer.
I was gonna stay out of it but I couldn’t help myself.
I think that the statements you made orangeblossom are wrong at the fundamental level.
So the precautionary measure, as you call it, for women to cover is in order not to make men experience the feelings of lust. Thus, the burden of keeping lecherous men out of mischief is placed on women. Nice one! I thought that everyone is responsible for its own feelings and desires?
And as far as I understood from you comment if a guy sets his eyes on a girl it is the girl’s fault and her husband can be unpleased with her. Is that what you are saying?
What about men controlling their penises? If they can’t then I’m sorry but it should be them staying at home, in a dark basement until they learn how to control their basic instincts instead of blaming it all on the women’s attractiveness!
What’s wrong with your statements according to me is the fact that you immediately assume that if people of two opposite sexes are left alone something evil is gonna happen. You don’t trust people, do you?
Well, as far as I know random men and women don’t jump straight to bed when they are left alone. For some reason both sexes can behave in a cultivated manner.
The world does not revolve around sex! And people don’t think constantly about how to have sex with other random people on the street!
Of course, both men and women cheat but it doesn’t mean that 100% of society cheat!
And I think that such strict segregation makes it even worse. Cause men and women are not exposed to each other, they don’t know how to behave around each other and it’s simply dysfunctional. So when you finally make contact with the opposite sex you’re just like a ‘wild’ animal not knowing how to behave!
And what I know from my female friends who happen to come from the Middle East the society is sooo sexually crazed that an inch of a forearm will set a guy off! If that’s what you call normal? how’s that keeping both sexes from mischief if a guy becomes aroused at the glimpse of skin that is shown in a non-sexual context?
I would be really happy if you could possibly explain that to me. Thank you
@Wendy…
“These problems are all imagined in the minds of scholarly men who fight their own crazy demons and then mess with their people because of it.
Yes, I agree! What happens when these women come to the west where this sort of total covering is absurd and finds that she doesn’t have to beat men off with a stick? that they can talk to her in a respectful manner without touching or leering? Is this just something Saudi men cannot do? Or have they been conditioned to think that they can’t? Isay they have been conditioned.
How is that everywhere in the world except in the Middle East women are not covered and are able to interact with men on a normal basis?.
Why is that men in the West, Latin America, Africa, South Asia and East Asia are able to restrain themselves from raping every uncovered woman they come across but men in the Middle East are assumed to not being to control themselves?. Are Arab men less than those men?.
And why is that women, both covered and uncovered, received unsolicited attention and harassment in the countries of the Middle East? So many female western travellers can give you stories of hissing, groping and unwanted advances made towards
them when travelling in the Middle East. I also know of fully covered women also getting unsolicited advances and touching and groping when out without a man. It’s obvious that gender segregation, extreme covering and placing men’s misbehaviour on women all contribute to a culture of harassment.
In contrast, I can honestly tell you that i could skip through downtown Toronto at midnight in a bikini and the worst I would get would be strange looks. Me dressing “inappropriately” still would not give license to any man to harass me because it is understood in this culture that people are responsible for their own behaviour and that is enforced by laws and authorities.
Frankly, I would feel much safer running around in a bikini in the West than I would dressed modestly with a hijab in the Middle East.
Second of all, the Arab Muslim men who immigrate to Canada seem to be perfect gentlemen. They learn to interact with women and don’t see them as this exotic species that is unknown and foreign. They realize women are people too and interact accordingly. Again, I believe they came to these conclusions because of exposure and familiarity and also the realization they are responsible for their own behaviour and have to control themselves (which they find to be damn easy to do).
On a macro level, the segregation of women which leads to banning them from public spheres of life and ghettoizing them in very few industries really stunts the development of a nation. Not using the full capacity of 50% of your population because the other 50% might get horny thoughts will do a lot of economic damage in the long term.
@Madelenas..BRAVA!!!
I would only disagree and think that perhaps you might get some catcalls and whistles in a bikini in downtown Toronto, and I don’t personally feel that unsafe walking the streets of Saudi in an abaya.
I do feel oppressed however, by what I am not allowed to do- simply because sexually deviant men are making the rules for society here.
orangeblossom….
so much is wrong with your comment…Im sitting here shaking my head at either your naitivite or your sheer ignorance.
Segregation not only does not keep sex from happening..it just changes it up a little bit. Rather than men and women running around finding secret places to get their freak on…now they have it made…nobody questions two women in a room alone or two men in a room alone because the culture of segregation has created the perfect opportunity for homosexual sex to happen. And it does.
Alot.
Segregation only results in grown up adults who have no clue how to socialize with the opposite sex…have no idea what to make of this new husband or wife they just spent a majority of their lives being told they cant be around without serious consequences.
Segregated males enter marriages to a woman they have grown up believing is a conniver out to seduce him with her sexual wiles. A creature that will turn the heads of every male she encounters unless she is controlled and “protected” Whose menses is pollution and who cannot be deemed as religious as him simply because she is female…therefore deficient. He is told he can beat her if she gets out of line and divorce her on a whim if the fancy strikes him or to just replace her if she grows old, fat, infertile, or just “because”. He is told to revere his mother (females) and that heaven lies at her feet….but then is told her opinion means little, only half that of a man, her mind and body are easily corruptible therefore she cannot marry anyone other than another muslim…and that while she can care for his children…their religious learning cannot be left in his hands and that at the end of the day..if she dies and her husband is not happy with her..heaven is denied to her.
Of course there are all the things Muslim women grow up learning about Muslim men…they are sexually driven men who cannot control their lusts and must be protected from themselves at every turn else sin be committed…sin that is squarely and solely the fault of females who should simply know better than to flaunt her femaleness around them. Muslim women learn that the Muslim male pride holds top spot in his life and their marriage and that she must protect his pride at all costs…so much so that she can never be anywhere, talk to anyone, dress as she chooses…plan her life, or make decisions without his knowledge..otherwise his pride may suffer when others “talk” of her “sins”. She learns that her body is for him to do with as he pleases…to give him sex whenever and where ever he requests it..otherwise angels are cursing her…to hide it from others lests they want from her what only he has a right too and of course she isnt strong enough in her morals or faith to resists in her own right. She learns she must submit in all ways to her husband because he is her maintainer…which places her a step below him on the totem pole of who God deems more worthy of leadership and submission. She learns that she is inferior to him simply because she has a vagina and not a penis…which somehow makes her deficient in intellect and religous observance. She learns that apparently the penis makes men smarter and more religious…somehow. She is not sure how.
Segregation makes people grow up truly ignorant about themselves and about the opposite gender. It has no benefit other than bathrooms and bedrooms.
The rest I will leave for another comment.
*sigh*
It can be argued for hours about the validity of certain hadith, fatwas, etc and there will not be a concensus even amongst Muslims. The greater question is then – why is there covering and/or segregation and is it still valid?
As far as I understand, the requirement to cover private parts and to cast down eyes (for men and women) is in order to place a value on chastity. It is to emphasise that chastity is a good moral quality and to create an environment which makes it easier for people to be chaste. Is it possible to be chaste without covering – absolutely. Then what is the need to cover nowadays?
As a muslim who does cover my hair and not my face i can only give my example. As a student, or at work, when i wear a hair cover it sends a clear signal that I am not looking to date anyone (from my personal point of view) and I have found that I have always been treated with the greatest of respect by non-Muslim men in this regard. I have worked, studied and gone about daily life mixing but within certain boundaries i set for myself. I have never had any inappropriate reactions from any male colleagues.
Has such strict segregation as is interpreted in Saudi achieved the same? I have had more disrespect, staring, following in a car and generally feeling like a piece of meat while living there. I feel having no contact of any kind has made people either desperate to interact with the other sex but unaware how to do this in a mature manner. I am speaking in general and have met plenty of Saudis who do not behave that way.
Would people behave so badly if the rules were relaxed? Very probably yes after some initial change-over time. It is chastity and not hiding which is the main point of these teachings. Covering without chastity is pointless, IMHO.
As for the breast feeding ruling it is absurd. and I have never heard that the Prophet advocated this. If so, and he believed it was a valid practice, he would have set the example by having his wives be the example for other men and women. It simply was not the case and is contrary to the teaching of the Quran where men and women are advised to cover their private parts.
Orangeblossom…
You said , “or they can use it in the streets to attract other men”…why does it always have to be an “either or” situation? Why cant women be good just because they are good women? A woman doesnt have to be wearing hijab and abaya and covered from men to be deemed good. Just because she is wearing something that may make men turn their heads and look at her…why is she deemed “bad”? Its the “burka or bikini” mentality. She is either covered and modest or uncovered and unmodest.
Nice.
I wear jeans and a tshirt…just about every day of my life that is my “weapon of choice” when it comes to seducing men. I work in a store in which men are frequently drunk when they come in…which means they arent always in control of themselves..so to speak. Funny enough my jeans and tshirt has NEVER moved one of them enough to lust after me..or to make a move to touch me etc in an unlawful way. Might be saying something about me myself..but hey…Im trying to make a point here. My “immodest” attire has not hit them in their gonads and required action from them..action they apparently would have been unable to control.
On the other hand I wore jeans and tshirt in the middle east as well. With an addition abaya and hijab over the top of it…and guess what. Apparently the abaya and hijab are the two sexiest bits of clothing a woman can wear because I lost count of the number of times I was sexually harrassed, touched, molested…..while out and about among these SOBER (assuming) and in full control of themselves Muslim men. My hijab and abaya hit them right in their gonads and they apparently could not control the lust that over came them…they had to touch..or worse.
Modest or immodest should only be used when describing behavior..not dress. In the middle east women are forced to Dress modestly…but men are NOT forced to behave modestly. Women are blamed for not dressing modestly…and are deemed deserving of whatever happens to them because of it…but men are not blamed for behaving immodestly…and are not considered able to control themselves…simply because a woman was around to antagonize them into arousal…with either her modest or immodest dress.
Whatever.
“The idea the women must be covered but men not shows how male oriented (and MAN made) those rules are. People need to see religions for what they are. They are social constructs. They may have their place, but when taken to extreme they are a burden on society.”
you see this as unfair to women and so conclude that this must be because religion is a man made construction.But what about the fact that a a man is required to provide for his family?or that he has to attend the mosque for the five daily prayers whilst his wife is not held to account for performing hers in her home? these rules don’t sound like they’ve been designed for the benefit of men.
the fact is that a woman’s body is more desirable than the man’s and it would be a goss injustice to her if she were not allowed to protect it from visual rape.
Orangeblossom…
I forgot to add that..after spending a lifetime premarriage learning all that about each other..the new husband and wife…are supposed to live happy ever after??? Seriously?
I happen to know that a vast number of marriages in the middle east consist of the wife spending time with her children and other wives…or alone…and her husband spends time at work, with his friends…or at home either demanding kingly type servitude…or asleep. Arab/Muslim hubands and wives do not spend a whole lot of time together in their marriages…and why is that..because they grew up believing they were not allowed to spend time with the opposite sex…thats a cultural habit hard to break…but segregation is NORMAL and religiously mandated? Seriously?
PG warning if you want to skip through.
One more consequence of segregation and non-exposure prior to marriage no one ever brings up is this: many Arab men have lots of ardor but sadly, very poor bedroom skills when it comes to pure technique. I’d give you more details but want to keep this family-friendly 🙂 No doubt this comes from too much fantasizing and too little information/practice.
africana…”visual rape” is the sin of the one who does it..not one who its done against.
Men required to pray in the mosque..thats your great equalizer? Men ALL over the world are required to provide for their families..and most of them do it without God having to lay down rules for it..rules which Sharia court judges routinely ignore and abuse at the detriment of Muslim women.
Womens bodies are “more desirable”…who says…men? women? Where did you get that bit of fact please? I see hunky men all around me every day of my life…men that make shiver just a bit with how “desirable” they look to me…and you know what happens…I look…enjoy the looking..feel good for a minute…then go on about my day. I do not stop and “visually rape” them…nor do i harrass, molest, or touch what I have no right to touch…why is that…because I have control. I can look without feeling the need to touch.
Apparently religious men not only cannot control that feeling..they need God to tell them that its natural and women are to blame and should be held accountable for their lustful actions.
Whatever.
These comments make me sooooo freakin glad Im a woman…and so sad for others that they are too.
@NN
And I suppose there are not many ‘how to’ books available. What you say is interesting because if a man wants to have a happy married wife he needs to know how to make her happy in all ways and ditto for his wife.
Bravo Coolred!
@Wendy
That is true in theory; but I suspect that sort of education is discouraged for fear of corruption or whatever. I can report only my own experience. What skills are women taught beyond submission and surrender? When even masturbation is discouraged, how is a girl supposed to explore her own body and what pleases her?
@ Coolred
Ditto pretty much everything
@Africana
I definately find a man’s body more desirable than a womans.
@africana
I am a man, so I do regard a woman’s appearance as more pleasing than a man’s but I think many women might prefer to see a man’s body.
Islam still tries to make rules for a modern society based on 7th century examples. The goal is modesty. Is sexual segregation the only way to accomplish this? Is complete covering the only practical route to a modest life? If Islam is of real value and not just for the Arabs, why is the West able to have uncovered women yet have stable happy societies? Maybe Muslims could learn something about controlling libidos.
I’m watching the World Cup presently and see quite a few pleasing bodies! 😉
But don’t worry….I’m not visually raping anyone.
some of you commenting on here in your attempts to ridicule muslim dress codes and segregation (which i might add are very similar to those of haredi jews) have actually, through your anecdotes, confirmed for me why segregation is necessary
you see, segregation of the sexes is not simply to avoid rape or unwanted touching (which you would be hard pressed to find amongst religiously inclined individuals). but to avoid the more widespread sin of adultery of the gaze which is a sin that some of the commentators on here are falling into as evidenced by their remarks about being able to look at fit men without jumping on them.
@NN
“many Arab men …”
I don’t think a few conversations and unfortunate encounters of your own could possibly justify the above assertion.
the same could be said about any ethnic group if that were the mode of research.
Well, okay. I have a lot to say on this subject and will have to restrain myself for the sake of brevity (although that may be hard). First off, let me state where i am coming from. I have gone from a non-hijabi, but modest, non-Muslim through a convinced niqabi stage which lasted a very short time (my dh still requires me to wear it in KSA because of social pressures, but i hate it), to finally deciding that hijab is a recommendation more than an obligation and that may not necessarily include a scarf.
First i must address some of orangeblossom’s comments:
“Women (and men) can use their charms and beauty to increase the love between them and their spouse and make it something between the two of them and this will benefit them both…”
Wholeheartedly agree!
“or they can use them in the streets for the attention of random men . . .”
With you on this one, Coolred. I am sick of this “Islamic” assumption that women who are not covering every inch of skin or do not have a scarf on their head are all out to entice men. Muslims always present non-Muslim women or non-hijabis basically as sluts on the street. That’s what’s implied.
“It’s a precautionary measure and one which acknowledges that women are attractive and meant to be protected”
For many years i was under the impression that hijab was for women’s protection. That’s definitely what Qur’an implies, but after living in the Islamic world and reading hadeeth and the opinions of eminent scholars, I see very clearly that obligatory hijab is actually in place as a protection for men from the evil of women’s bodies and is a fantastic instrument for our subjugation (more on that in another post).
“As for segregation – it severely curbs the problem of illicit affairs”
After 20 + years in KSA and all i’ve seen and heard – ROFL!!
“Men and women aren’t being kept from sex or from each other but rather they are being dissuaded from the unlawful looks and unlawful actions which would become completely lawful and actually promoted within marriage.”
I just cringe when i hear the word “lawful” in reference to human emotions and relationships. These lists of rules and regulations make relationships so cold and robotic. But i guess they are needed under the strict segregation rule, because a lot of couples don’t have love of each other to base a mutual respect on.
@ kasia
“The world does not revolve around sex! And people don’t think constantly about how to have sex with other random people on the street!”
It does, and they do in KSA!!
I never thought about sex so much as i do here! Every time i don my scarf i think, “i am a sexual object.” You go to the mall and the Arab men working in the stores try to pick up on you. I almost had a physical confrontation recently with one who was hitting on my young, pre-teen daughter. Men won’t help a woman who has fallen down in the street, because they are afraid to touch her. You even think of sex ordering at McDonald’s because there is a barrier between the men’s line and the women’s line to prevent us from lustful interaction. It’s sick!!
It is a society obsessed with sex!! They have made a self-fulling prophecy. Men and women should be segregated and women completely covered, then that causes an obsession, then when a woman comes near or flashes some skin the men really DO feel lustful, then they say that justifies the segregation and covering.
Nuf said for now! 🙂
susanne430: ROFL!
Today, my daughter and i were discussing the World Cup and she asked me which team i am supporting. I’m not much of a sports fan, so i told her whichever one has the hottest players!
Bad mom, i know.
I’m sorry Africana, but segregation does not avoid the wolf-predatory stares of Arabs- I would like to know what exactly would they be staring at in a woman covered from head to toe in black?
When in Yemen, like Saudi women, I wear the niqab and abaya. Every where I go I am with my husband. And I can’t tell you how many times men have stared at the black wall I represent to them, in my Yemeni husband’s presence to top it!
One man was so intense in his staring that my husband commented, “Your eyes will not be able to undress her.” And what was I doing at that particular moment? Sitting by the window of the mini-bus we were in with my husband beside me…that man could not even see the color of my skin because everything was shrouded- gloves and black socks to boot. In Yemen married women have incredibly artistic and beautiful henna applied to their whole bodies; so many of them will cover their hands and feet so the designs are not seen…Men in Yemen break out into song when they see henna on hands and feet…
So please, remember that modesty is for both genders; And for the record EVERY Muslim is required to pray FIVE times a day- be they men or women; wherever they maybe- at home or beyond. So the men going to the Masjid to pray does not excuse them or give them any more dibbs with God.
When a child, boy or girl, is taught that there is some inherently different about their gender other than the sexual reproductive system; you are setting them up to think of the other gender as more than just male or female of the same human race…you set them up to think the opposite gender are an ‘alien’ species. And if in your teachings you neglect to emphasize that each person is required to be responsible and accountable for their actions before God; then you are encouraging them to act irresponsibly and blame it on the “other” person or thing….
I live and work in NYC in a major trauma medical center, and I wear hijab- There are many Muslims from all over the world- and NONE has ever been inappropriate with me or other Muslim women- whether they are in hijab or not…so tell me what keeps these men in line? How can the converse, attend meetings, practice medicine, do lab work, or finances and not stare in a predatory manner, or any manner women might consider insulting? What they got a genetic change when they took the flight to NYC? Were they brainwashed en route?
@ Maggie
i’m so with you on what you said! As you said the effect is completely opposite to their initial intentions.
I am very interested how you arrived with the conclusion of yours:
‘finally deciding that hijab is a recommendation more than an obligation and that may not necessarily include a scarf’
I came across your name in a few comments, do you have a blog yourself?
@ africana
‘sin of adultery of the gaze’
could you please kindly explain why it is such a great sin to look and interact with people of opposite sex? no matter how fit they are? do you acknowledge the fact that no matter how fit they man/woman is the other sex might simply not be attracted to him/her?
I probably sound stupid now but we learn by asking questions.
so imagine I talk to a cute guy, and I can see he can be considered as cute and I consider him cute. How does it make me a sinner?
cause i would think that okay, i talk to the guy for whatever reason without underlying intentions, clean talk, and after we are done talking I go about doing my thing, he does the same.
How is interaction/conversation with eye contact sinful?
Please shed some light on this for me. thank you!
@ africana:
“adultery of the gaze”
I have always read that verse as simply an encouragement of respect towards people, especially those of the opposite sex.
I don’t see the appreciation of a beautiful woman or a handsome man as sinful. These are natural inclinations that God gave us. Sorry, if i see a hot guy, i’m going to enjoy it!
I don’t know why all normal and healthy feelings need to be so repressed.
Makes for a very sterile, guilt ridden and unnatural existence.
On a roll of rebellion tonite!!
@ kasia:
Time for bed now, so i’ll post about that tomorrow.
No, i don’t have a blog. I do keep a private journal about my personal journey in Islam and i share some of that content when i post.
Maggie…On a roll of rebellion tonite!!
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Maggie…
” On a roll of rebellion tonite…”
Thats a ride I love taking. LOL
oops for the weird extra content in my comment
@ Maggie
thanks! you see I have been thinking about converting but there are some thing that I simply cannot accept and it makes me wonder if I could ever convert at all.
thank you and have a good night and dreams!
Sometimes there is NO subtlety in these hardline descriptions. There is a difference between dressing and looking attractive, and dressing and looking sexually alluring. Most of the world gets that.
I have never seen such improper looking, at less than in Saudi. Really, it’s like they are trying to raise sex perverts here. And it seems we have a fair number of them making the rules and pretending Allah is on there side. It’s really sick.
And in case someone thinks I’m ridiculing. I am not. I am a Muslim myself and all this unnaturalness makes me sick and has made this society sick. There is no religious basis for segregation and other than covering your cleavage and being modest- no other clothing requirements from the Quran. All these mysogynistic innovations are a real shame. And I mean SHAME.
Ok. And someone help me out here. “Adultry of the gaze”- what is the reference for that? It sounds so Christian…???!!!!
Maggie,
“I don’t see the appreciation of a beautiful woman or a handsome man as sinful. These are natural inclinations that God gave us. ”
I agree. When I said I liked seeing the men while watching the World Cup, I just meant I appreciated the pleasantness of their look. They are part of God’s creation so why not enjoy what He created? It does NOT mean I am imagining myself in bed with them which is maybe where “adultery of the gaze” comes into play.
There is a huge difference in appreciating that someone looks nice and imagining yourself undressing and having sex with them.
And LOL @ your comment to your daughter about the hot guys! See, men think women aren’t attracted to them and that’s why they don’t have to cover. Phooey on them! We have eyes, too! 😉
Sandy, I think of “adultery of the gaze” as maybe the command of Jesus to not look at a woman to lust after her in your heart. That’s why I differentiated between my looking at men’s handsomeness vs. wanting to bed them all. 🙂
Admittedly, I’ve never heard the phrase “adultery of the gaze” but that’s how I thought of it.
Okay, i’m really going to bed now, but i just had to say
BRAVO, Sandy!
Especially this part:
“There is a difference between dressing and looking attractive, and dressing and looking sexually alluring. Most of the world gets that. ”
Thank you!
(We are twins separated at birth – lol!)
well i kind of have a silly, maybe off topic question here, but im driven by curiosity: u mentioned that there can be a difference or perhaps acceptance when it comes to foreign women not covering their hair in saudi arabia, so ill ask if the difference is based on a woman’s looks? i mean, for example it will be expected and therefore accepted that a blond woman doesnt cover he hair since she looks “foreign”, but what happens if an arab-looking woman even if she is not arab choses not to cover? will she be treated with respect at the streets? will she face pressure from the people out there to cover up?. I’ll appreciate if someune could calm my couriosity lol 😀
@ susanne430:
You know, i read an interesting Islamic opinion on sexual fantasy once. It said that sexual fantasies are allowed as long as you don’t have the intention of wanting to actually follow through on it.
Not that i need a scholarly opinion. i think sexual fantasies are part of a normal and healthy sex life – even when married.
It doesn’t in the least diminish my devotion to my partner and it can make sex a whole lot better!
So that said – goodnight! 🙂
“It doesn’t in the least diminish my devotion to my partner and it can make sex a whole lot better!”
😀 Uh huh. 😉
@africana
“I don’t think a few conversations and unfortunate encounters of your own could possibly justify the above assertion.
the same could be said about any ethnic group if that were the mode of research.”
You see, dear, that WAS the mode of research so I say what I say with authority. So yes, I could POSSIBLY justify the above assertion.
@inal,
wolves will be wolves whatever the mode of dress. the sense of violation may not be felt as acutely by the covered woman as she will not accept that her dress was in any large part responsible for her treatment.
@susanne430,
“I agree. When I said I liked seeing the men while watching the World Cup, I just meant I appreciated the pleasantness of their look. They are part of God’s creation so why not enjoy what He created? It does NOT mean I am imagining myself in bed with them which is maybe where “adultery of the gaze” comes into play.”
whilst you may not harbour such fantasies about the opposite gender, i’m not sure that the same can be said of other people and laws are not made based on the experiences of a minority of people. i don’t think there’s a great diffeence between appreciation and sexual fantasy, afteral what one is appreciating are those very same features that would, under the right circumstances, make him an appealing sexual partner
@kasia,
“could you please kindly explain why it is such a great sin to look and interact with people of opposite sex? no matter how fit they are? do you acknowledge the fact that no matter how fit they man/woman is the other sex might simply not be attracted to him/her?”
attraction isn’t a one way street. a man whom you don’t consider appealing might nevertheless find you to be so and your interracting with him more trhan absolutely necessary would sow a certain desire for you on his part …which is a sort of unfaithfulness to his wife and an affront to God. is it not the case that whilst a person’s beauty might be veiled from us, we can develop a deep attachment to an aspect of their personalities. an aspect which would only be evident by looking upon and associating with that person.
God does not hold us to account for a glance that falls accidently upon a member of the opposite gender but to look again is considered sinful and so too would be the ensuing emotions which are considered a sort of adultery.
@ africana
“wolves will be wolves whatever the mode of dress. the sense of violation may not be felt as acutely by the covered woman as she will not accept that her dress was in any large part responsible for her treatment.”
So then what is the point of full niqab and abaya if the woman wearing it does not accept that her dress was in any large part responsible for her treat?
“I agree. When I said I liked seeing the men while watching the World Cup, I just meant I appreciated the pleasantness of their look. They are part of God’s creation so why not enjoy what He created? It does NOT mean I am imagining myself in bed with them which is maybe where “adultery of the gaze” comes into play.”
whilst you may not harbour such fantasies about the opposite gender, i’m not sure that the same can be said of other people and laws are not made based on the experiences of a minority of people. i don’t think there’s a great diffeence between appreciation and sexual fantasy, afteral what one is appreciating are those very same features that would, under the right circumstances, make him an appealing sexual partner”
But you see the laws in Islam in Saudi Arabia, that they export to the rest of the world, are based on the experiences of a minority of people. the Saudis are a minority in the Ummah.
“could you please kindly explain why it is such a great sin to look and interact with people of opposite sex? no matter how fit they are? do you acknowledge the fact that no matter how fit they man/woman is the other sex might simply not be attracted to him/her?”
attraction isn’t a one way street. a man whom you don’t consider appealing might nevertheless find you to be so and your interracting with him more trhan absolutely necessary would sow a certain desire for you on his part …”
Attraction that is not mutual, is necessarily a one way street. Again you sound, from the words, that you still blame the women for the unwanted attention…
“which is a sort of unfaithfulness to his wife and an affront to God.” So if he has more than wife, to which one is he being “sort of unfaithful”?
“is it not the case that whilst a person’s beauty might be veiled from us, we can develop a deep attachment to an aspect of their personalities. an aspect which would only be evident by looking upon and associating with that person.”
Again, there is this sense I get that the woman is going to be guilty because the person is attracted to her personality and wants to pursue further association…BTW, is this before or after the veiled woman tells him to bug off?
“God does not hold us to account for a glance that falls accidently upon a member of the opposite gender but to look again is considered sinful and so too would be the ensuing emotions which are considered a sort of adultery.”
Oh so that is why they stare; because its one long continuous look? Teach them it’s NOT appropriate to stare, that the ‘supposedly’ first glance does not mean one continues to feel a need to keep looking. If they stare for any length of time, or physically act on their emotions, fantasies, desires, whathaveyou when the other person has in no way acquiesced; I would say their mama’s and papa’s didn’t teach them manners…
@Kasia-
can I ask what are the things you feel you cannot accept? I had some of those “issues” also. One was wearing hijab..i read alot about it and came to the conclusion it’s every womans own choice how you implement hijab, but hijab is for your own best interests.
If you choose to cover your hair, your face, it’s up to you, but it doesn’t mean that it makes you somehow more pious or “better muslim”.
For me starting to wear a headscarf was easy because I live in KSA. But when I go home it has what I feel as the opposite effect. In other words it gets me more attention. not that the attention is sexual in any way, but it is mostly very negative in a country like Finland. So back there I opt to just dress modestly otherwise, or wrap the scarf a bit differently..if you would like to read more on my thoughts of covering visit my blog : blueabaya.blogspot.com 🙂
@coolred
You said everywhere around the world men are required to provide for their family. I dont think thats true at all! For sure you know that according to islam men are supposed to be the sole providers of the family, and if the woman so wishes she can contribute from her earnings for the families benefit. In most western countries men AND women are required to provide. What about all the single mothers, and the spineless men that leave them without support? sure there are laws in the west to prevent it from happening, but you cant generalize like that.
@africana
I agree with you that men having to be the sole providers for the family and them having to go to mosque five times a day are not beneficial for men and is illogical thus to say men came up with these rules.
Women have it much easier, imagine waking up 3.30 am going to mosque vs praying next to your bed and then hopping back in..Or rolling to your other side to continue your dreams while your husband gets up to hurry to work..
@INAL
I’ve been to Yemen, and I have to say that the wolf-like staring there is far worse than in saudi. Interestingly I didnt see ANY women without niqab. So does this imply that the more all women cover-the crazier men get when they see for example the face?or is this a sign that gender segregation has negative impact on the society?
I’m not sure, but I wasnt covering my face and I would say half the men behaved very politely, lowering their gazes and giving me room on the streets, while the other half stared to the point I felt like smacking them! I was even in abaya. In this instance it should be mentioned I was walking around alone, and I guess they might have just been curious, what is this crazy western woman doing wandering around Sana’a 🙂 I didnt see any other westerners!
For the record majority of men were dressed in traditional yemeni attire, which I would describe as modest.Yemeni men actually wear long”skirts’ or a shawl they wrap around their waiste 🙂
What i’m saying is I think regardless of how much women cover there will always be bad men like this, everywhere in the world. And that is THEIR shame, not ours. It doesn’t mean I have to run home and cover more! But it does mean that by the way I dress, I am sending a message.
In every country I’ve visited, be it middle-eastern, asian, western, south american or african, men harass women, and I have been harassed. Mainly verbally, like shouting, whisteling, suggestions but even grabbing from the behind or breasts has occured. The image of a beautiful western woman all around the world seems to be that you are “easy”. By modest dressing I DEMAND to be respected.
Look at the rape statistics from South Africa as an example
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1703595.stm
“women’s rights activists say one South African is raped every 26 seconds”
I am sure that the way women dress has at least some affect on the occurence of rape.
When I used to live in SA I felt constantly aware of the mens gazes. It felt uncomfortable, as if I was a piece of meat for them to evaluate. I have to be honest and say, at that point I wasnt muslim and I used to dress like most young women there; miniskirts, microshorts, tanktops and the likes. Back then I didnt see it like I do now. I guess I just did “what everyone else is doing’, not thinking that I could actually affect it by dressing more modestly. I wish I hadnt been so ignorant back then!
Sorry for the long post!
@ Laylah…I have always said Yemeni can stare at black walls- no problem for them, but I know that there are different areas in Yemen where this is not necessarily so.
One time my husband and I made a trip to Aden – which to some northern Yemeni is the bastion of hell incarnate, where the women are not covered, there is booze everywhere on the streets, etc, etc. So when we arrived in Aden my husband says, “Well I guess they knew we were coming and hide all the naked women and cleaned every street.”
In Taiz, from what I have seen people don’t stare… don’t know everyone there, but its a bustling city where everyone generally is out and about their business. Never saw any one staring.
But Sana’a is kinda notorious in the staring department.
I wonder if the statistics of rape include the numbers of women who are victim to “war rape” and the ones who are raped because they are young and virgins- I have heard that some men in Africa believe that these girls can cure or prevent them from getting HIV- but of course they don’t account for the babies born with HIV… I don’t know, but those numbers of daily rape are stupefying…
@ INAL
I was only in Sana’a and Socotra, as a westerner I didnt want to venture too far into the countryside because of the kidnappings, was there exactly a year ago and some women got kidnapped while I was there.
Interesting that Aden is so different! Isn’t chewing khat enough 😀
Is your husband from Sana’a? Such a magical city, I absolutely loved it!!Must return there one day.
Yes indeed in the countries I worked in Africa, especially SA and Swaziland, men do actually think having sex with virgins will cure them from HIV. Young girls have to be very wary of this. Sadly even their own relatives.
The most horrible thing I’ve ever encountered was a man who had raped his own 2 month old baby girl, came to hospital because he had gotten “stuck” inside her. it still sends shivers down my spine. The baby survived but all reproductive organs were destroyed.
People should think about what goes on in countries everywhere and not always blame arab men for being crazy sex maniacs! How about the child brides sold by their own family in India? or the selling of girls 6yrs old for sex slavery in Cambodia?Rape is very common in south american countries too..
This is the world we live in, unfortunately one person cannot change it. But what we can change is ourselves and how the rest of the world percieves us. I call for all women around the world to respect yourselves, your bodies and dress more modestly!
Am I starting to sound like a muttawa now 😀
Laylah, I completely agree with you. I can’t write anymore in this comment because everything you said is *exactly* how I feel on this subject ^_^
@ Laylah
My husband is from the Ibb governorate, not the city, but one of the mountains within about 3 hours up.
Oh, don’t get me started on the topic Qat!!!
Well, with regards to selling child brides, I would say Yemen does it extensively (but not universally)- never met a married Yemeni woman who was in possession of her mahr- the father or an uncle swallowed it up…for a variety of reasons, regardless the age of the bride- so selling is in this case seems more common.
I would ask the parents of boys to teach them that women are not pieces of meat or produce, we are human.
@Laylah
“You said everywhere around the world men are required to provide for their family. I dont think thats true at all! For sure you know that according to islam men are supposed to be the sole providers of the family, and if the woman so wishes she can contribute from her earnings for the families benefit.”
Just because they are “supposed” to provide, doesn’t mean that they do.
“In most western countries men AND women are required to provide.”
We choose to work and be financially independent so that we don’t have to depend on a man for a meal ticket, and so that we don’t have to have our nephews bringing us bread when we are 75 years old. If my husband leaves me tomorrow, I don’t have to run to daddy or impose on my brothers so that I have a place to stay and three meals a day. And no, you aren’t REQUIRED to work – it’s just much better to work. If a Western woman doesn’t want to work after getting married, all she has to do is find a man to buy into that plan.
” What about all the single mothers, and the spineless men that leave them without support? sure there are laws in the west to prevent it from happening, but you cant generalize like that.”
Gee, and I suppose there are no single mothers and spineless men who leave them without support in Muslim-majority countries? At least here we have laws to garnish their wages before they even get their paychecks.
I meant that it’s legally required for only the man to provide.
What do you mean ‘its’ just much better to work”
Excuse me but not all people are the same, some actually love to be able to be at home and devote themselves to their children. Personally I like to work, I feel I HAVE to work in order to stay sane 😀 but that doesnt mean I think I am better than those who dont wish to do so.
Islam enables a woman to choose whichever she wishes, and takes away the stress of having to support the family. That stress is laid upon the mans shoulders.
In western world the woman has this huge burden to bear, be succesful and make money,look good, and in the process be a mother! In my opinion this causes alot of unnecessary stress.
Believe me I’ve seen both sides.
At one point I was the sole provider for my ex bf and myself. I cant say it made the relationship blossom. We western women have enormous expectations to succeed in all areas of life nowadays.
It seems to me from the comments of the some of the Western women, that the way they dress in the west, is the most appropriate. I wonder if they approve of their daughters walking the streets half-naked. If not then why do they not comment on that and voice their opinion? Instead they choose to complain of women who cover?
In the West, women are exploited sexually left, right and center. They are used in the media for advertising displaying their body. Women have the pressure to always dress and conduct herself to appear sensual, to be extremely thin, to look like models …etc. Events like beauty pageants are proves of how western women are viewed. They even have girls of 4 years, doing beauty contests. Do you consider this the “right” of the toddler. Are women so naive that they think that this is for their “beauty”?
Furthermore men engage in wife-swapping (why not husband swapping) which is just like swapping PC’s or a car or cell phone. Is that an upgrade for women in the society?
The women in the west has to keep proving herself while exhibiting her sexuality all in the name of “freedom”. And while she is doing this, her home falls apart but this does not concern her because she is doing the “right” thing according to her “rights”. The way she dresses and conducts herself in public is the right thing to do and the corruption of the society in general is not a problem. She does not find it insulting to see huge billboards of naked flesh because that is the making of a society and an advancement. She does not mind the discomfort in her day-to-day life wearing high heels and mini skirts, and some wig to please the men, because after all that is what she is there for. Men will not say anything to the women about covering up. Why should he while he is enjoying every bit of it! Even though he will think women are so cheap in their attire of lack of it but anyway lets enjoy it, women misunderstand and think they they look so diserable and that is why men pay attention to them. For men it is “F the base and cover the face”. They don’t care who the women is. He just enjoys her. (I am generalizing here, There are many respectable men and women).
While they fool themselves saying that Muslim men control the women, they are blind to see what is happening in their own society. They fail to see the women there are greater slaves. While good men such as priests, bishops and nuns are not allowed to marry and reproduce good children, bad men are allowed to have relations with anyone their heart desires leaving a trail of confused children. Gays can get married and raise children. What about the rights of children that need male and female parents? That is not of concern because being gay is their “right”. Where are the laws? A naked woman is free. How can women baring themselves of their womanhood be seen as freedom?
Women may be working in the exact same job as the men but their wages will be less. The rights that western women talk about all the time is not something that was there nor was it created out of compassion for them. She reached where she is now by struggling and not from some divine teachings.
These women, although having responsibilities of bearing and raising children have to struggle to be on same level as men in all areas. This has put a big pressure on women resulting in confusion, divorces and many troubled children.
Islam has kept the importance of women and protected her and her measurement of success is very different from her counterpart in the West. They are trusted with raising children – the future generation. A woman’s modest dress protects society from adultery and other forms of illegal sexual relations that lead to the break up of families and corruption of society. This is the humanity. This is the protection of society.
Walking around with visible wobbly breasts and cellulite thighs is disgusting! Do women think that showing their cleavages is a show of “freedom”? Western women just have to display it, its is kind of “respectable thing”. If you don’t show it, you are an old nanny.
If woman want to cover from head to toe, what is it the business of others? They don’t mind to be object of men’s fantasizes, and their slaves but they do mind covering up. What strange people!
I don’t think the world is as black and white as some of the comments make it appear. There is a great variation between people in the ‘West’ as well and between Muslims. There is no one ‘west’ as there is no one ‘islam’.
You cannot make generalisations that covering automatically leads to chastity, this is not the case and Saudi has many examples to prove this. Nor can you say being uncovered (in not covering the hair) means you are unchaste.
The value being highlighted by covering is chastity. As far as I can see the value of chastity has been lowered by general public opinion in all areas of the globe and not exclusively in the west.
Stereotypes are generally not helpful and are often wrong.
Well, if all this dressing as tents prevented adultery, prostitution and rape- then there should certainly be far less of it than there is in Saudi. Clearly it doesn’t work. But women get trapped in bad marriages because they don’t have the skills or the opportunity to support themselves if they need to.
Then there are the poor Saudi women living in shanty areas of the city with no male provider, no skills and no opportunity even if they have skills to get a job. I’m sure they’d rather work than watch their children suffering.
yes in the west- some men and women use their sexuality in ways that are not Islamic. But then they themselves are not Islamic. No one has to wife-swap (and I’ve never known ANYONE who does that EVER) no one has to be in an advertisement or a beauty pageent. So you may not like what others are doing- but you don’t have to do it!
Also, with regards to children having “the right” to two parents. What about all the kids in Saudi orphanages?? Why don’t they deserve two parents?? Adoption is so difficult here. And while you’re contemplating that- contemplate a society that puts shame above honor. Women abandon their babies rather than raise them because everyone has to pretend there are no unwed mothers in Saudi. And then it is hard for others to adopt them. How is this such a great system????? So two loving parents of the same gender is somehow worse than abandoning your child to an orphanage in a country where adoption is rare and difficult??????
Sarah MD
That was such an exaggerated over blown comment…I was laughing for a good 5 min. Thank you cause Ive had a long night at work..needed some relief.
1. My daughters do not walk around half naked…neither do I. So theres goes that generalization of yours.
2. For every woman that is naked up on a billboard or using her body to “get ahead”..there are the rest of us going about our lives not really giving a shit what others think of our bodies. There goes that gross generalization.
3. Men engage in wife swapping? Do you mean they cheat on their spouses? Or have sex outside of marriage etc? Since you stated that as something that goes on in the Big Bad West..are we to assume you mean that it doesnt happen in Arab/Muslim countries? Of course it does…so thats a generalization shot to hell.
Not to mention as far as upgrades go…Muslim men dont need to “swap” wives to get an upgrade..just go get another one to add to his harem.
4. MY Muslim home fell apart..not because I was showing my sexuality outside the home or letting every man I came across get a good view of my bouncing cleavage…but because my MUSLIM husband was sexually abusing our daughters. HE is the one that caused our home to fall apart. Soooo…that generalization is shot to hell.
BTW..that was in the middle east..not the Big Bad West…so bad behavior gets around it seems.
5. “Good people” such as priests, bishops etc etc??? Have you been reading the news of late…these good people have been busy sexually molesting little boys because they arent allowed to have sex naturally. That was a truly hilarious comment.
As far as the “bad men can have sex with anyone they want leaving confused children”…see my comment above about who exactly they are having sex with in the middle east…lots of sexually abused children there…I know…I lived there over 20 years. Word gets around.
6. Women in the west may be getting paid less…but at least she can work if she chooses..at any job she is qualified for. Many many Muslim/Arab women are forbidden to work..and if they do work..the fields they are allowed to work in are very narrow indeed. Not to mention…many of them work only to hand over their salaries to their fathers or brothers etc. I happen to know thats a common occurrence too. Nice.
btw she reached where she is at by struggling? You see that as some sort of negative? Women in the west fought for their right to be considered a fully fledged human being in the eyes of society. She fought for that. God didnt come along and declare it to be the case just so men could then bend over backwards trying to find ways to get around God by denying women their rights and refusing to grant them equality in the eyes of society.
Even God cant get Arab/Muslims to treat women with fairness and equality.
7. “These women, although having responsibilities of bearing and raising children have to struggle to be on same level as men in all areas. This has put a big pressure on women resulting in confusion, divorces and many troubled children”…and to think..all that confusion, divorce and the many troubled children in the middle east are caused without the added detraction of women struggling to be on the same level with men…so it seems those sorts of things happen everywhere..and not just the Big Bad West. Who would have thought?
8.” Islam has kept the importance of women and protected her and her measurement of success is very different from her counterpart in the West. They are trusted with raising children – the future generation. A woman’s modest dress protects society from adultery and other forms of illegal sexual relations that lead to the break up of families and corruption of society. This is the humanity. This is the protection of society”…..it doesnt matter what Islam has or has not said regarding women…Arab/Muslims have made it a concentrated lifes endeavor to deny women the rights Islam or God gave them. So thats crap.
“They are trusted with children?” What the hell does that mean? Women in the west arent trusted with children? Muslim women might be “trusted with children” but its the housemaids that are raising them for the most part. So its the housemaids that are trusted with children. Whatever. Strange comment.
“A womans modest dress protects society from adultery” blah blah blah. Are you freakin kidding me? Seriously. Are you kidding? Your comment indicates that the sole cause of an immoral society is the assumed immodest dress of women. So where does the immodest behavior of men come into that scenario? Is everything concerning morals completely and squarely in OUR hands..or on our bodies? That is the BURDEN women of the west do NOT have…and thank god for that. You can keep it.
9. I dont show my cleavage..nor my disgusting cellulite etc. Another comment shot down. My idea of freedom is that I can show those things and not be thought worse of..or accused of immorality or adultery or dishonoring my family (some man) and being beaten or worse…killed for the mere showing of my cleavage or disgusting cellulite. Thats freedom.
10. Woman can cover from head to toe..that is the point. Women should be able to dress however the hell they choose..and mans opinion should never be a deciding factor in it. BUT…while women in the west are busy being seductive and naked for all mens pleasure…women in the east are busy covering and becoming invisible in order to stop gossip…stop male members of their family from abusing them..adn to stop some so called morality police from hitting her with a stick…if she does it for God..then kudos for her. Hope god appreciates her effort.
Strange people indeed…funny how so many many Arab/Muslims finger point at the west…but would and do jump at the chance to live there and experience all that immorality for themselves. Go figure.
Such a lengthy chucklicious comment. Thanks for the laugh.
Coolred talks as if she is the only woman in the west. What makes her think that I was referring to her. She is comparing every comment I made to her personal life.
Know what? I, too had a good laugh at your comments. If anything it shows your aprroval of the conduct of loose women of the west. Says so much about you.
“Have you been reading the news of late…these good people have been busy sexually molesting little boys because they arent allowed to have sex naturally”
Well here is news for you. What makes those good men do all those silly things. Just look at all your media material. All are displaying sexual messages – all around. Everywhere you look there is a naked lady. And man is a human and so are those good men. Can you blame them? And you know what, I was expecting someone to say the things you said.
Codered, I noticed that for every comment, you put your personal experience up front. You cannot understand that you are not the only one who had problems. There are people with worst situation that yours in the East and West and ME, so do not always pity yourself to blame the whole of ME and muslims and Islam.
Thanks for the laugh too.
Sarah MD
there are NO sexual images scattered like rain drops around the middle east…naked sexual images are forbidden (ironically more internet hits on porn sites originate from the middle east than anywhere else on the globe…lol)…and YET…despite the holy unnaked moral atmosphere…SEXUAL CRIMES…AND CONSENSUAL SEX…outside of marriage still happens. Seems as if one doesnt necessarily lead to the other. Go figure.
If priests and bishops etc were good men as u claim…then images or not..they would not resort to little boys to get their jollies.
I make it personal when you say such things as “women of the west”..I am a woman and I am from the west..so yes…its personal.
You opinion of what constitues “loose” conduct and mine apparently differ…so be it. To you be ur loose conduct and to me be mine..or ours…whatever.
I know I am not the only one who has problems…pity all the women in the world that suffer at the hands of men…pity them more when those very men use God as an excuse to make them suffer.
I do not blame the WHOLE middle east, muslims, and Islam…I only blame the assholes. If your not one (any you..not YOU) then I dont blame you. So were good.
Glad I could amuse you…Its what I live for.
coolred38,
I know you are a woman and from the west but I am not talking about THE woman from the west, coolred. I am talking in general. And I think you do believe me when I say about the West but you fail to accept it and compare it with the ME. You have to admit how scanitly clad women images are everywhere. I have heard it from non-mulsim women who are just tired of it too. And it makes them feel cheap. Yes they admit to it. It will not make you any less of a woman if you too can accept that. (And of course there are many other women who just enjoy men undressing them in public and having bodies everywhere – I am not talking about you. I know you can’t be one of those).
Sarah MD…nowhere in my comment did I say that women here arent running around half naked…they surely are…but thats not the majority of them. I would venture a guess and say a majority of the women do NOT run around half naked and have no desire to let men amuse themselves visually at their expense. Neither did I say I accept or applaud those very same women. I dont. I wish to hell they would cover their asses and bouncing boobs just as much as you do…I didnt ask to see it and it shouldnt be forced on me.
My comment was more in line with..we dont all do that…nor accept it or promote it. Your brush was very wide in including all of us. If you are speaking generally…than say so..otherwise you arent.
You are wrong in one instance….you said…”I know you cant be one of those”…actually I can if I choose too..easy enough…but i choose not to. Simple. A lot of us do.
Choose not to.
Coolred,
Yes I admit it was my mistake that I did not mention that I was speaking generally, and I apologize for that.
And I am glad that you are not one of those who choose to run around naked. Makes me respect you.
The movies and television shows aren’t real. We don’t all live like Desperate Housewives. This ‘West’ we all talk about is a figment of someone’s imagination, exaggerated because in reality, like everyone else, we’re just not that interesting.
“Wife Swap” is an American reality TV show where the woman in a household lives with another family for a period of time. I’m 100% certain that sexual relations with the man in the house is not written into the contract. This is the ONLY circumstance of ‘wife swapping’ I have ever heard of. Of course with the internet you can find a report on any form of sexual deviancy known (or unknown) to man. One case does not make a society.
Most of us live bland old boring lives in monogamous relationships with work and debts and kids to handle. We put shirts and pants on before we leave the house. A lot of women will agree that the sexualisation of everything has gone to far. We’re with you on that one, we just think that modesty is not quite as extreme as is practiced in the Middle East.
But the rest is just generalised rubbish you’ve obviously read from trashy celebrity magazines. Again, these are a few people who don’t live typical lives that the general public is obsessed with because we’re boring!
The media tells the story it wants to sell more papers and make more money. Sure you’ll see more flesh in a Western society but these women aren’t being sexually molested every time they walk down the street. There’s deviants in all societies, in the West we just like to send them to jail.
Everything mentioned against the ‘West’ I have seen or heard reports of happening here in the ‘East’. One big difference is that in the West we are happy to admit our shortcomings and shame those who fall out of line. In the East everything is covered up to avoid any embarrassment that people might see cracks in the guilded facade of their lives.
Be careful throwing stones in glass houses…
Agreed Stacey. ALL the bad behavior occurs here in Saudi. They just pretend it doesn’t, until it blows up in their face.
I actually knew someone on either Wife-Swap, or the other show with a different name. There is no sex involved at all. In fact it is staged to make it as difficult as possible for people to even get along. I don’t know if that’s what she was refering to or not.
Segregation leads to a LOT of sexually deviant behavior. Boys have to be very careful here- as do girls.
@Sarah MD
The comment was so hysterical I sprayed my morning coffee over the keyboard. Look, if your medical career (I assume you have one since you insist on tacking MD to your signature) doesn’t work out, there’s a paycheck for you in comedy writing.
There’s so much I could say to your comment….oh about the great big bad West mandating that all women behave as hussies…but I’d save my fingers some agony.
What do you think is going to happen to you if you live in the West and DON”T wear miniskirts and high heels and cleavage-baring tops? You think a miniskirt police is going to come over, take your muumuu away and give you a covered-woman fine to pay? Because you just “have” to show it all? Darlin’, did you live in the West? Did anyone MAKE you show what you didn’t want to show?
Oh, I forgot. You were generalizing. You did admit, after all, that “there are many respectable men and women”. So why did you choose to pour out your venom on the presumed minority of sexy dressers? Why was your one-line admission of presence of respectable folks in the West (gasp!) buried in one hundred paragraphs of anger at completely imaginary pressures and circumstances?
NN,
” So why did you choose to pour out your venom on the presumed minority of sexy dressers?”
Same reason why most of you pour out your venom to all Muslims. There are exceptions here, too.
Glad to entertain you. 🙂
@Laylah
“What do you mean ‘its’ just much better to work”
Excuse me but not all people are the same, some actually love to be able to be at home and devote themselves to their children. Personally I like to work, I feel I HAVE to work in order to stay sane 😀 but that doesnt mean I think I am better than those who dont wish to do so.”
This has nothing to do with who is better. And it also has nothing to do with what you or somebody else loves or wishes to do. The hard reality is this: It is better to have a source of financial stability independent of your husband. Let me repeat: It is better to have a source of financial stability that is independent of your husband. In my opinion, women who are financially dependent on their husbands are in a more vulnerable position compared to those who are not.
“Islam enables a woman to choose whichever she wishes, and takes away the stress of having to support the family.”
That choice is completely open to every married woman on every continent. You see, what I don’t get in people in your crowd is this blindness to the fact that two incomes is more than one. You make it sound that just because a married woman refuses to work, her husband’s income is magically going to double. It isn’t! A two-income family lives more comfortably than one. And if you don’t want to work (in the West)), you are totally free to do so! But your family is going to have to get by on less. Since your husband will continue to make what he’s making and no one is going to give him a wife-at-home bonus. And let me just say that a woman who chooses to avoid the “stress of working” adds to her life a different kind of stress – of being financially dependent on someone.
“In western world the woman has this huge burden to bear, be succesful and make money,look good, and in the process be a mother! In my opinion this causes alot of unnecessary stress.”
Well, in my opinion, that’s a bunch of bollocks. Darling, successful beautiful people are a minority in EVERY society, otherwise they wouldn’t stand out. Most people in the West, just like everywhere else, are average-looking and make an average amount of money. And of course there is pressure to look better and make more money. That’s human condition! We call it the drive to better yourself! What would you like society to tell you? It’s OK to be an ugly loser?
“We western women have enormous expectations to succeed in all areas of life nowadays.”
How much of that expectation you choose to let to rule your life is completely up to you. If you choose to make little money, you can. If you choose to get fat and throw away your lipstick, you can. No society in the world puts ugly and beautiful people, poor and rich people on one level. Where you choose to place yourself in this hierarchy is up to you.
Are you telling me that a rich beautiful woman in KSA is equal to a poor fat one?
@Sarah MD
Actually I have no venom at all for Muslims, seeing as I’m married to one. My venom is for the social and legal system that rules Muslim-majority countries.
NN, “Actually I have no venom at all for Muslims”, Really? That is not according to what I have seen from your comments on other threads.
I too do not have anything against any one particular western women, I am just against their slutty fashion sense and general behaviour, (gererally) and the way advertising world uses women in sexual tones.
@Sarah MD
Your interpretation of my comments on other threads is your business.
“I am just against their slutty fashion sense and general behaviour, (gererally)”.
Generally? While any particular given Western woman is OK with her fashion sense and general behavior, all Western women taken collectively have slutty fashion sense and general behavior?
I live in the West and I just have a general question: where exactly did you find these islands of women “generally” dressed as sluts and “generally” exhibiting unacceptable behavior? Or are you taking examples of a few and applying it to all?
And I see you haven’t commented on my assertion that any woman in the West is completely free to NOT wear a miniskirt or high heels. Shall we all continue to labor under the assumption that in the West, there are fashion police checkpoints on every corner looking out for women in long skirts and sending them home to change?
If you live in an average Western city and all you see are sluttily dressed women, I have serious doubts regarding a) your vision acuity, and b) your wisdom in choosing a neighborhood. Unless, of course, anyone without an abaya is a slutty dresser to you. What, you look at teachers, shop clerks, police women, lawyers, bank tellers, doctors, neighbors, and every single one is wearing a miniskirt with her boobs hanging out?
Or is it only a sin when your thighs have cellulite? You have no problem with cellulite-free thighs on display? So your objection is based on esthetics, not on morals?
If you don’t live in the West, then you must be making your opinion based on TV and magazines.
” I wonder if they approve of their daughters walking the streets half-naked.”
Of course I don’t, but I don’t want her walking round under a tent either! Believe it or not there is such a thing as moderation…a middle of the road stance.
Your comment is so way off base on so many levels that it is scary. Whee do you get your info from…BTW, many women in the West work not only because they want to but because many have to. And many families see it as a partnership between the husband and wife. She is not exploited but viewed as an equal partner to her husband. She has a say in the finances and how they are used, the children and how the are raised, the home and how it is run, the husband and how he spends his time: she is an equal partner to him. She doesn’t need her husband’s permission for anything, although as a partner they usually consult each other.
I have no general venom towards Muslims. Especially since I am one. I have a great deal towards Saudi attituds and Saudi law, which denies me many of my human rights. And this blog is about Saudi.
You have really insulted western women Sarah MD. Even worse you’ve way OVER generalized. The difference is that extremes in Saudi are often given force of law and imposed on its people.
You also gloss over the fact, that the ills of the west are in fact the ills of EVERYWHERE- and that Saudi with all it’s oppression has the same problems as the west.
I think that gender segragation, and sexual apartheit, and the veiling of women have ver bad effects on saudi society. |As they would have on any society.
the segregation makes man act like sex-craved mad men. It make both genders to follow homosexual relationships. I mean besides people who are naturally homosexual. It is a wellknown phenomenon in segregated surroundings like prisons. People have to love somebody. If there is nobosy from the preffered gender people will turn to another gender. In saudi the whole country is in this insane situation.
No woman is safe in saudi arabia no matter how much she covers. no matter if she has children with her. she will be harrassed insanely by men. men will push phone numbers at her. men will follow her. Once a man flashed me on my way to the mall! sitting in his car!
And for those who think segregation stops ”fornication”?? No way! Anything goes on in saudi. there is prostitution there are secret meetings. there is misyaar marriage which allows men to cheat on their wives but it is halal. there are women who are sold into limited time misyaar marriages which is clearly meant to be for prostitution.
For women it is more difficult to cheat but many women cheat.
Or have female lover.
Why not? So many couples live seperate lives.
Some couples have no ”relationship” at all.
Men are only more obsessed in sex because of segregation.
And women are objectified as sexual objects by veiling. the mere act of veiling makes it clear that they are sexual objects.
And they are not ”protected” but hoarded by their owner.
It is an insane world.
@Sarah MD .. I’d like you to visit my Canadian town sometime and see how everybody dresses and conducts themselves. The normal for the majority of women (and girls) here is jeans or slacks, shirts or t-shirts with a sweater over top, running shoes or sensible walking shoes. In the nearest city you see women dresses as above or in business suits or dresses. We are not like a TV show or a movie. Nobody is flaunting anything. Wife swapping????? Most are too tired after a hard day at work to even think about it much less do it. People are people.
I can understand your comments if you actually made them to counter things said against Islam and how women dress. I would probably want to lash out too but please understand that what you wrote is very wrong and if you truly believe it I’m very sorry.
i’ve lived in saudi, india and now the wicked west , i’m yeat to see hordes of semi-naked womend anywhere. for the most part irrespective of forced by rules or not most of the women deside to dress modestly, comfortably and in some instances very well. If left to their own devises i’ve seen women everywhere dress so professionaly and look so nice.
so why nor give them a chance , why decide that they wil dress bad and even if they men will lust after them. I’ve been harasses more in saudi adn in india then here. and i can safely say i’ve never worn anything but pants adn long tops/ salwars or long skirts… havn’t worn a mini skirt or low cut top EVER …. in my 4 decades of existence on this planet.
As for skin showing bringing out the baser instincts of men and women, i’ve seen more men’s wee wees than care to due to my profession and believe me i have never felt the faintest stirrings of desire , there have been times when i’ve felt copelled to give them a lecture on hygine but nothing else. and i know a ton of male gynecs, i doubt they want to jump every patient they see. i wonder why saudi men get so worked up over an ankle, do they really or are they being steriotyped…..
some of the people on here, including some of the muslim regulars, appear to be trying to rationally analyse God’s laws. those that make sense are accepted whilst those they can’t fully understand or don’t fit their desires are ridiculed and rejected. in so doing, you are placing your own judgement over that of God’s and faling into the trap of being conceited ad arrogant before God. we are told in the quran, some of the tribes and civilisations of the past were destroyed and/or cursed.
“and i know a ton of male gynecs..”
absolutely not the point that these doctors aren’t going to sexually abuse every patient they come across. what you don’t consider or don’t seem to find disturbing is that these same gynecs are feeling genital arousal whilst looking at their patients. that is a cause for concern even if they don’t jump on them.
@africana
I bet an ob/gyn gets absolutely immune to looking at female genitalia. I think it takes a lot more than that to get a male og/gyn excited. It would become boring and certainly not exciting examining genitalia every single day. I don’t get turned on every time I look at my husband … there has to be something more to make that happen.
africana…” appear to be trying to rationally analyse God’s laws. ”
I happen to have this inate ability know know when I have been offended..or wronged…or treated unjustly or oppressed. I dont need someone to explain it to me…I FEEL it naturally.
If God is Just and Fair etc to both genders throughout the Quran…then both genders would feel a sense of peace and fairness…a sense of justness and equality…a sense of rightness.
If we dont feel that then something is wrong…we dont need to excuse that feeling away by saying “we just dont understand Gods plan…its all so mysterious and wil be revealed some day”….sorry but thats shit. The Quran is for ALL time for ALL people…not for SomeDay.
I want my justice Right Here and RIght Now…I want it Clear and Straightforward with no chances for reinterpretations or ambiguity.
God can do anything right…he sure as hell could have done that right from the start and all this crap that Islam has become would never of had the chance to happen.
Someone fell asleep on His watch…and guess what…man ran amok…as man is want to do.
Whatever.
Wendy…my mother asked her male OBGYN one time how he could look at them all day and not get aroused…he told her…these are my “work”…when I go home and see my wife…she is my “play”…no problem to differentiate the two in my mind. LOL
Absolutely! I know when my brother was going through medical school and he did his turn at ob/gyn he said he was actually turned off by his wife for awhile. Really … it takes a whole lot more than looking at one part of the anatomy to get a normal man aroused.
@africana
You said it’s a cause for concern if male gynecologists get aroused looking at their patients. I agree with Wendy that in a medical context these professionals rarely get aroused. However, what intrigues me is that you think there is a cause for concern regarding what they think or how they feel.
Why do muslims have such concern over people’s private thoughts?. You can’t police people’s minds and what they think. Frankly, if they have evil thoughts it’s between them and God. We should only be concerned if these thoughts manifest themselves in unlawful actions, i.e. the bad gynecologist makes an unethical move on his patient – he gets reported to the medical license board, gets suspended and gets charged.
Otherwise, if his thoughts are bad let the Almighty judge him. Really, you can’t presume to take over God’s job and judge people for their thoughts.
the thoughts in and of themselves are not bad, it’s the context in which they occur thay makes them so. a gynaecologist has deliuberatley put himself in that position so he’s culpable for the feelings unlike someone who feels something whe they accidentally look upon an attractive member of the opposite sex. too many women are too proud to enter the field of gynaecology, unfortunately .
I certainly don’t try to rationalyze Allah’s laws. But I reject mens laws.
@NN: “PG warning if you want to skip through.
One more consequence of segregation and non-exposure prior to marriage no one ever brings up is this: many Arab men have lots of ardor but sadly, very poor bedroom skills when it comes to pure technique. I’d give you more details but want to keep this family-friendly No doubt this comes from too much fantasizing and too little information/practice.”
I see nothing wrong with providing the youth of Saudi with more sex education and giving them a handbook albeit at appropriate ages…but by your comment are you seriously advocating fornication purely for the sake of gaining sexual experience?
I’m sorry but I’d much rather have an inexperienced husband than one who has been around the block and who is no doubt suffering from an STD or two. No thank you!
So Mr Experienced can take a hike…give me Mr Fumbles and we’ll learn how to spice things up together! 🙂
@ africana and Sara MD
“some of the people on here, including some of the muslim regulars, appear to be trying to rationally analyse God’s laws. those that make sense are accepted whilst those they can’t fully understand or don’t fit their desires are ridiculed and rejected. in so doing, you are placing your own judgement over that of God’s and faling into the trap of being conceited ad arrogant before God. we are told in the quran, some of the tribes and civilisations of the past were destroyed and/or cursed.”
Madelenas comment is appropriate to this seeming arrogance you seem to have in expressing your judgment over God’s…you see you don’t know what God is thinking… Did it ever occur to you that there are things God gave us that we don’t necessarily use appropriately or twist to our benefit? And you can jump on that comment to tell me that precisely because some of us do not agree with you, is cause for concern. But your concern is highly sexualized- yes very sexualized- and that my dear is not normal… Especially for a Muslim; who is not allowed to judge people’s thoughts. My husband is a doctor, I work in a hospital- and that means that when we take oaths to Do No Harm, we also agree and swear by God that we are not going to use our professions for anything immoral. Of course, there are bad apples everywhere, but the profession should not be sexualized to your measure. Every person that goes into an Operating Theater, lands in a Trauma slot, ends up in an ICU has bigger problems than their doctor’s thoughts… And tell me how the heck can you stop what you are doing as you do a liver resection to have a moment of sexual fancy??? It boggles the mind that you would express such denigrating views about the medical profession!
Allah SWT the Merciful, the All-Knowing, and Bountiful does not smite us for every thought we have… He did not make us perfect, perfection remains in His Realm, not ours. The fact that we are born, live , and die is a clear indication of imperfection. Allah SWT is Ever Present.
But the biggest imperfection we may have when exercised is the projecting of our views as judgments cloaked behind Islam… Your personal opinion shouldn’t be tied as de facto to Allah SWT; you don’t know Allah’s purpose in permitting or not things… It could be that the plague of car accidents in Saudi Arabia in direct proportion to the anger, frustration, inhibitions, uselessness that those reckless drivers feel is the bane of your existence for not following Islamic rules of moderation, correct thought process, and restraint. There are less car accidents in the West that cause deaths and injuries versus the amount of car accidents in Saudi… you don’t believe it? Check this out, made in Saudi! And these are ALL caused by the men of Saudi Arabia… In a supposedly Islamic environment where moderation is to be the cornerstone of society- you have this much recklessness? BTW the accidents were not caused because women are out and about in less than appropriate clothes, what gives then???!!!
Sarah MD, I will say that like others here I also find your broad strokes and generalization about women in the West to be off the mark; because the West is not mono-cultural- America for example is a whole hemisphere, not one country (that would be the USA)- we speak many languages, we have many religions, many cultures, and languages; all accompanied by a variety of lifestyles. As an American, and a citizen of the United States of America I find you don’t know us at all. The West also includes Europe, and again Europe is a constellation of countries that have a multitude of cultures, religions, and languages; again accompanied by a variety of lifestyles. Please do not generalize your statements when you apply the ubiquitous argument of the ‘decadent West’ by collectively giving us your judgment of sluttish attire and general misbehavior. It does not do you justice as a human being.
The Middle East is also by extension multi-cultural, with various languages, AND religions – Islam is not the only religion in the Middle East. And I happen to love the middle east- but like a parent, I know enough to admit that the ones I love also misbehave, I don’t cover them blindly and say absolutely not they wouldn’t couldn’t do that… they just shouldn’t but its not up to me to stand in judgement of them by vilifying them. I just don’t lie about what they do.
@ Sarah MD
I agree with most of what you said, although I admit it is generalizing. But so is saying muslim women wear abayas and tents 😀
I agree that in the west many women dress “half naked’ but not everyone of course. But even if they are dressing normally (another generalization)the emphasis is still on displaying the body.
I have no idea how coolred thought your post was all about her. I was amused when she pointed out everything to her personally, like the world evolves around her.
From what I’ve understood she seems to have had a really bad experience with a saudi man, and she is still VERY bitter about it. Thats why she posts such hateful comments all the time.
@ Laylah
I would suggest you first find out why Coolred made her comment the way she did… Bitter, fellow blogger, is an understatement that you will soon realize if you were to put yourself in her shoes.
@ Africana
You must think your body is really something if you think an MD is going to be turned on by looking at it. You sound like you’ve really been sold a bill of goods about how special you are.
Think about it. Put things into perspective and think about how insulting you are sounding to the male medical professionals. Sexual desire begins in the brain anyway and not by looking at a body. The brain has to WANT to see that body as desirable.
@ annebu
I’m glad you think that sex ed should be given in KSA.
I don’t think a man or woman has to go and have sexual experiences before marriage but lack of experience can be dealt with when good sex ed. is offered so at least the couple can know what they’re supposed to do and can perhaps have a ‘how to’ manual to help them. It is a known fact that the body runs much better when it receives regular and good sex from a loving partner and that applies to both males and females.
I have come to the same conclusion as many of you, gender segregation al’a saudi does not work like it’s supposed to.
But didn’t the prophet (pbuh) say do not go to extremes in religion because you will not be able to keep it..
That’s exactly whats happening in saudi-arabia.
Regarding medical professionals having sexual thoughts of their patients..
I see alot of mens private parts in my work, not that I like it , but it’s just part of it sometimes. I’ve never had a sexual thought about any men even after having to look “there”.
Actually it’s quite the contrary to getting aroused or anything of the sorts.
I would say majority of drs and nurses feel this way. There might be a bad apple somewhere. But iI agree with Wendy, the human brain has to want to see it as arousing. In my opinion it is much easier to turn that mode off than on! But maybe that is different for males.
I’m surprised we haven’t gotten male comments here..Would be interesting to hear their perspectives too!
What I said about coolred was just an observation. I feel really sorry that she had to go through with such horrible things..I just didnt think bringing that bitterness into every conversation is a wise thing to do..
Lovely thread! I so enjoyed all the comments, especially Coolred, INAL and NN and Wendy!
And of course SaraMD and Layla.
But I don’t think those are real people. I think somebody is trying to get a rise out of us. Nobody is that ignorant for real.
If only it were warm enough for me to dress immodestly! here we are, in the summer, and I am still shivering while totally modestly dressed…
I don’t know where all this bullsh*t about naked women in the Wicked West is coming from… Not from people who have actually been in the Wicked West I’m sure…. It is way too cold for even a hint of cleavage…. I was wearing gloves for riding, and my autumn coat, all buttoned up, and rain-leggings, and I was still cold!
Let’s hope the temperature will shift to sinful clothing soon!
I’m off to a shower now to warm up.
(I’ll be NAKED!)
😈
@Laylah…
Coolred used her personal examples true, but from what I have read on this and other blogs her example is certainly not limited to her experience and I think that is precisely WHY she used her example. there are many woman in the ME who have lived through the same things she did. Some one higher up on this thread (perhaps you or Sarah MD) said that women had lived through worse. So at least you know that what she wrote is not an isolated incident.
My husband is an MD…an oncologist (Cancer Doctor). Part of his job, other than to comfort and educate men and women who are frightened they are destined to die due to the cancer is to examine them physically where they have the cancer. He deals with a lot of breast cancer therefore he looks at a lot of breasts…naked. Know what he is looking for and what is running through his mind while he looks?
He is looking for discolorations of the skin; oozing sores that indicate cancer too far gone; lumps that MIGHT be cancer and might only be a cyst and yes he has to palpate the breast…that means he touches and feels it to determine the size, mobility,hardness and location of the lump. I use the word palpate because it is a medical term meaning to touch with the intent to feel the underlying tissues looking for a disease process…not to get a sexual thrill; if a breast is too big he isn’t thinking “oooh I just love this one” As a professional he is thinking, “darn! This is going to be difficult to feel any lumps because there is too much tissue”. If the woman has a vaginal cancer, yup! he needs to observe it too. That means he has to look “down there” on her. For men he must sometimes look at private areas as well. He does not shy away from his job nor does he get his sexual jollies from it. His mind is on the disease, how it affects each person, how to treat it and how much time they have to survive if it looks like it will incurable.
It is unfortunate that you and others think that it is not possible for a doctor to do his job without looking at every woman as a possible “turn on”. But in a segregated world that is what they tell you will happen. If you have never experienced anything else (ie: born Muslim in KSA) then I can sort of understand how a person might believe that. But if a person was not born a Muslim and converts and came from a culture where this whole segregation attitude and mindset was not the norm then shame on them! (the convert) They should know better as they lived that life prior to conversion and somehow have lost their sense of perspective. they have lived in a world where the sexes comingled without jumping on each other every chance they got. They lived in a world where the doctors, both men and women, were understood to be professionals and not panting after everyone of their patients just because they got a glimpse of a “private part.” Maybe the doctors in KSA have been conditioned to think like that but the rest of the unsegregated world does not.
oops…my comment above was for africana…sooo sorry Laylah.
This is my first time commenting on this blog, but I have been reading it for the past several years. 🙂
I just wanted to point out that it seems like a false dichotomy is being created between the West and the Middle East or Muslim women and non-Muslim women. For instance, you have these assumptions that Muslim women wear the hijab it’s because they’re being oppressed or forced to. Then you have these assumptions here that Western women all dress “slutty” whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.
We all know these assumptions aren’t true, of course a lot of Muslim women who wear the hijab do so by their own choice. At the same time, not all Western women dress “slutty” even if they did, it doesn’t mean they’re doing so to be a sexual object. But that’s usually the assumption. What I’m saying is that we need to be careful about creating these dichotomies. It’s such a shame that there doesn’t seem to be a middle ground.
on the perils of male medics examining women. perhaps this person is more honest than others.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543668
@ africana
One nice thing about your life I guess, if you want to look at it this way, is that you don’t have to tax yourself by thinking for yourself. You can find all your answers from somebody else. I pray you don’t ever get so sick that you need to see a male doctor who might have to examine your whole body. The world will still spin, though.
@africana… did you notice that the person answering did not directly address the issue of the medical student’s sometimes arousal- other than to say a Muslim doctor- male or female- is to fear Allah SWT? He was directed explicitly to see the hierarchy of seeking medical attention…
Now I will state that Medical Students in NY are not allowed to do surgeries, deliver babies, and such- not even make notations in the Medical Record unless they are countersigned by the supervising Resident, and that signature countersigned with all necessary amendments by the Attending doctor. There is a clear reason for it- they are STUDENTS, not full fledged Doctors who would be held accountable to the law- we do have those and they are hefty. Medical Students are not Residents, let’s be clear about that.
This young man has a lot to learn about Ethics in his chosen profession. I wouldn’t give him any other title but student. In his honesty he shows his lack of understanding of the profound moral obligation of the profession he has chosen.
I’m always sooo worried that the female doctor who is doing my smear might be a lesbian…. will she be aroused by doing the examination? what can I do? my gp is male, and not gay… He is married!
Luckily the oncologist who examined my breasts when I thought I might have a lump must have been gay, as he seemed totally uninterested in my gorgious breasts while prodding (palpating) them….
It’s so difficult nowadays! Who can you trust?
I think it’s best to have a gay male doctor, and a hetero female doctor.
But then I can’t have my husband go to the gay doctor, and certainly not to the straight female doctor…
Live is complicated…
The really best thing would be to neuter all doctors.
And that would be a good solution for Saudi Arabia as well.
let all couples marry young, and when the man has father has fathered two children he is castrated.
So he can mingle freely with women. Without balls and a dick there can be no ”fornication” right?
@Africana,
I am sure these things happen in some cases. First so what if a male got aroused on some occasions.It is that worse than women get untreated? I am really interested of how your mind works.
I also think that you should start thinking better of others. People that pursue medicine as a profession are primarily pursuing it out of their love for humanity and alleviating suffering. Contrary to most believes Doctors on average are under compensated for their level of expertise and the amount of time they spend in pursuing their degrees and qualifications. It is a shame that people like you discount their professionalism and commitment and follow the guidance of what amounts to failures that pass themselves as scholars.
When did any of those scholars you follow did anything to improve the human condition?
@africana
Thanks for providing th link as it helps explain from a Muslim perspective. I have no issues with a woman going to see a female doctor. If she wants to she should…Muslim or not (the patient or the doctor). I have had gynecologists who were both male and female. My ob/gyn was a male and was a great doctor and delivered my daughter safely in what could have been an emergency situation. I didn’t give a flying flip if he was a man! He was good and competent and cool in an emergency and truly took action that saved my life… do you think I cared if he saw my privates???? By then half the hospital had seen my privates! Big deal. Before me he had seen thousands of privates. What made mine so special?
What I have an issue with is the idea that a doctor will become aroused when treating or examining a member of the opposite sex. For the vast majority of Docs that just is not the case. They have much more important things on their minds when they are examining people and it isn’t sex!
There is one part of the link you provided that I agree with:
“As far as treating women is concerned, doctors are not allowed to uncover any part of the woman’s body unless it is necessary.”
What you may not know is that is standard procedure taught to all doctors. A patient’s dignity and comfort are one of the paramount concerns and should not be violated (unless it gets directly in the way of treatment especially in an emergency). so for example, if my husband needs to examine a woman’s body, even if she is in a hospital gown she is to remain covered except in the area that he is treating (the breasts for example). Even then, he should uncover one and examine, when finished with that breast recover it and uncover and examine the other one. At NO TIME should a patient be stripped naked with no cover and made to feel violated. It is done for two reasons: obviously the comfort of the patient, but also to protect the doctor from accusations of impropriety. There is also always a nurse in the room with the patient and the doctor to make sure nothing happens that is improper.
I still say that the idea of a doctor getting his jollies off a patient is a construct of a segregated mindset.
Funny… My late husband used to say: “Man is a man, while he has fingers on his hands”, and also:”Bad is that woman, who no one desires”
So true, so true… Every woman wants to be admired and desired. Even the ugliest one…
As for the young student – after seeing a couple of dozens of sick female patients he will overcome his urges. Sickness is ugly, and unless you are a total pervert, you can not be aroused by the sight of a sick female body.
I wonder how those man, who works in female lingerie stores in Saudi Arabia feel?
@Lada…
“I wonder how those man, who works in female lingerie stores in Saudi Arabia feel?”
Excellent question! Kind of weird huh? A man can sell female undies and bras to women, but a man professionally trained to treat her to help her is not allowed. WTF?
Perhaps to be allowed to treat them they should be breastfed by their female patients first… Or this still will pose the problem?
@ Aafke
Sorry but I am for real 😀 And I’m not ignorant anymore.
Okay I have to admit I do sometimes try to provoke thoughts to get an interesting discussion going on 🙂
I know how you feel. believe me. I know because I used to think just like you.
Ironic huh?Women like I am now used to irritate the heck out of me! How can they be so ignorant? I used to say the same thing.
I would have never thought I could change my mind, but I did after lots of self reflection and studying, reading and thinking out of my comfort zone..
I came to the conclusion it’s not worth the endless, rebellious, angry fight for women’s rights. I was persuing it by being daring and rebellious, dressing in revealing clothing, I fooled myself to thinking I am free, I am advanced! I am a woman and I am not afraid to show it!
Sure I still fight for women’s rights, its my top priority! But just from a slightly different perspective.
I stepped out of my comfort zone and took a good look at myself and what I was doing, what was going on around me. I stepped into the shoes of the other side and realized, I had indeed been ignorant.
Just an observation from another very cold western country: It’s -20c outside, yet some women will wear miniskirts and revealing tops when they go to parties, bars, nightclubs..I know because I used to be one of them. It’s not like you stand outside, and you can always wear a good coat on top..But for the everyday clothing for outdoors, of course its “moderate” otherwise you’ll freeze to death out there!
The Saudi conundrum- failure to launch constructively when it comes to these contradictory social issues. The doctor who examines your unhealthy body part to help bring it back to some semblance of health vs the shop keeper who ogles your breasts and tush to gauge the size of underwear… yep, failure failure to launch.
@Layla,
“Sure I still fight for women’s rights, its my top priority! But just from a slightly different perspective.”
Sorry,you do not sound like you are fighting for women rights.All what you are doing is saying that they should follow your model. Quite an arrogant statement by the way.Assuming that you have the answer for others and vilifying them for their free choices is just down right arrogant.
Freedom of choice is not about you dressing in mini skirt, but it is about understanding that others should have that freedom. You are missing the concept entirely.
You could always suckle your favorite lingerie salesman.
Give him the breast 5 times and he’s your mahram. And will never get aroused by you and your lingerie again…
I sometimes wonder who makes up these things?
Layla, you have never been like me. I have never felt rebellious and I have never felt the need to dress in skimpy outfits.
I am a lady, I dress in elegant clothes, not mini skirts. My clothes are suited to the climate I am in, but they are never skimpy.
Unless I do some swimming in the lake in a bikini on a really hot day.
Which I might add has never led to a mob of lecherous men chasing me (what’s wrong with this picture?) or earthquakes, either in the Netherlands, or anywhere else on the planet.
Oh, – 20 is nothing, when you are young, hot and intoxicated…
The consequences come later in life… Some can not stop getting intoxicated, some can not get pregnant and some become ” virgin Mary”s… The last one is worse, since people tend to forget their own sins much faster, then those of the others.
Unfortunately, people rarely use someone else’s mistakes to learn. It is so much fun to step on the same rake over and over again…
Layla, *I know because I used to think just like you*
Yeah right, and when I get a lobotomy I will think just like you.
I wanted to add on how male drs examine patients in the hospital I work in Riyadh..
Like oby was explaining, the male drs will only reveal that part of the female body that is being examined.
For example, female pt is alone in room, I will go with the male dr. I go in first to make sure she is ready. Most women will want to cover their whole face, they will quickly throw the head scarf on while remaining in the hospital gown. Others wont care so much, depends alot on the woman and what she is comfortable with.
If there is some issue with say her stomach, that part I will help expose for him to examine.
So the dr saw the stomach but nothing else. Well from a medical point of view I have to say honestly that is not good practise. You must observe the whole patient to determine the diagnosis. Something very important might (and sometimes does) go unnoticed.
To examine the mouth, she will remove her face cover for only the time he is looking inside, after that she will put it back on and keep talking from beneath the veil.
First i thought it’s a bit ridiculous, but then I realized, these women must feel so shy because the dr might be the first unrelated male to ever see her face!
Sure she might even be terrified!
Another proof that the srict gender segregation practised in KSA should be eased..
@ Aafke Lol 😀
@ Moq
Interesting view.
I dont mean to say everyone should follow my model, now where did I say that?
What’s my model anyways 🙂
Sorry if I sounded arrogant, I really didnt mean to!
I think I’m entitled to stating my opinions here like everyone else. Perhaps my english is not as good as yours and it’s a little bit more difficult to write exactly my thoughts!
I’m not trying to change the world here 🙂 Everyone should be free to dress as they want. How we dress makes a huge impact on peoples impressions about us doesn’t it?
@Laylah,
When you start your comments by telling people that you used to think like they do and you now miraculously saw the light, you sound arrogant. You assume others have no deep thoughts and have not considered their positions.
Also assuming that others only feel free because they are wearing skimpy cloths is a bad assumption about other people’s state of mind. That was driven from your own bad experiences and you generalized it to others. Women feel liberated by the simple concept of having a choice.You keep missing that and continue thinking the mission of liberating women is to talk about revealing clothes.
@Laylah
“I came to the conclusion it’s not worth the endless, rebellious, angry fight for women’s rights. I was persuing it by being daring and rebellious, dressing in revealing clothing, I fooled myself to thinking I am free, I am advanced! I am a woman and I am not afraid to show it! ”
If you thought your revealing clothes serves any purpose in the fight for women’s rights, I can excuse it with only what I presumed was your young age. Who would ever think miniskirts advance women’s rights? I wear my stilettos for the pleasure of my heart and eyes. I could care less if they advance anyone’s rights – besides my own to look fabulous. There are better weapons in the fight for women’s rights than an angry miniskirted rebellion – dontcha think?
@Anebu
“I see nothing wrong with providing the youth of Saudi with more sex education and giving them a handbook albeit at appropriate ages…but by your comment are you seriously advocating fornication purely for the sake of gaining sexual experience?”
I advocate nothing. I merely make an observation that men who grew up in sexually repressed societies tend to have substandard bedroom skills – in my eyes. I think that good lovers require equal measures of healthy attitude to sex, lack of inhibition with their bodies and yes, practice doesn’t hurt.
“I’m sorry but I’d much rather have an inexperienced husband than one who has been around the block and who is no doubt suffering from an STD or two. No thank you!
So Mr Experienced can take a hike…give me Mr Fumbles and we’ll learn how to spice things up together!”
That is a matter of preference. I think virgins should marry each other – why train them on other people’s time? I am happy to leave the unskilled ones behind for you. I prefer men who have already been schooled in these arts. But that’s just me.
@NN
Amen sister.
i haven’t had a chance to look through the comments yert but thought that some of you might be interested in the below excerpt dealing with sexuality and the haredi jew (a sect within orthodox judaism).
muslims believe that the torah and the gospel were earlier revelations from God whose texts were altered. such alteration necessitated a new revelation from God in the form of the quran which confirmed some matters that hadn’t been changed and dispeledl incorrect ideas that had crept into the practises of the earler recipients of revelation. it is clear from a perusal of the list below that jewish teachings on the issue of sexuality are incredibly similar to the understandig that many of you have been conmdemniing as an extreme interpretation. i think that its presence in jewish law in a form so similar to that which is found in shariah points to the idea of this being the correct understading.
According to this article, some of the rules (both aspirational and mandatory) relating to sexual issues in Orthodox Judaism include …
* A prohibition on dwelling on lascivious or immoral thoughts.
* A prohibition on staring at members of the opposite sex, particularly at the reproductive anatomy.
* A requirement to keep most of one’s body clothed in respectable clothing.
* A requirement to avoid the company of uncouth individuals and avoid frequenting places where an atmosphere of levity and depravity prevails.
* A prohibition on looking at pictures or scenes that will be sexually arousing.
* A prohibition on touching a person of the opposite sex, especially in a lingering arousing manner (shaking hands very quickly in greeting between sexes is a point of dispute, and depends on one’s rabbi’s halachic decision). See Negiah.
* A prohibition on wearing the clothing of a member of the opposite sex.
* A prohibition on looking at animals copulating.
* A prohibition on erotically hugging (chibuk) or kissing (nishuk) one’s spouse in public,
* A prohibition on sexual contact or touching between spouses when the wife is a niddah (“menstruant”) or has not immersed in a mikvah following the niddah period.
* A prohibition on seclusion with a person of the opposite sex who is not a spouse or close relative (Yichud)
* A requirement that men and women be separated during prayer, dancing, and on certain other occasions (Mechitza)
* A prohibition on hotza’at zera levatala — “secreting semen in vain” by men. There is no equivalent prohibition for women since there is no secretion. However, masturbation by women is considered by most Rabbis[citation needed] to be a lewd act and is thus included in the general commandment “And you shall be holy”.
* A prohibition on sex between men, or with any type of animal, or with a corpse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_sexuality
@moq
scholars are a blessing but i don’t, contrary to your assertion, follow any particular scholar. Islam is a simple religion and everythig of importance is to be found in the quran and hadith literature.
Some doctors are selfless but in societies with less governmental regulation of the medical profession, you will find unscrupulous practises like sending every second person who comes in with a cough off to get an x-ray done at his mate’s office who happens to be paying you a handsome commission for the copious numbers of clients he’s receiving.
@ Moq
What’s up with you twisting my words?
This is getting kinda tiring..
I did not say I suddenly “saw the light” or anything like that..
Nor did I say I assume others dont have deep thoughts! Of course they do, how could they post such thoughtful comments here if they dont? I enjoy having a discussion, and I feel I have the right to say my opinion. Just like everyone else here, without being called arrogant for doing so.
I pointed it out that I used to think differently, because I thought it was an interesting thing!
I thought you also had very different views than you do nowadays? But you started doubting things and wanted to find out, and then came to certain conclusions.
I’m the type of person who always doubts and questions and tries to find out about things that bother me..
Having DIFFERENT thoughts doesn’t mean the others thoughts are deeper or less so.
And I was just being sarcastic on the miniskirt issue, ok? I didnt go around wearing miniskirts thinking that will improve womens rights as such. Implying that I did would mean that I was REALLY stupid, dontcha think? 😀
@africana…
What do you have against doctors? I don’ t get it.
YES, there are unscrupulous docs in the world. and I certainly can’t speak for the majority of the countries of the world I can only speak for the USA. The US has it’s fair share of thieves in the medical field. But I am not so sure about outright fraud. The government takes a pretty dim view of that and I have heard of docs caught doing that sort of stuff who not only were fined,(huge fines BTW) but had some jail time AND had their license taken away permanently! that is it…they cannot practice ever again.
Most doctors have to go through so many years of training and thousands of hours of study, exams, NOT TO MENTION the astronomical cost of getting an education which many pay for while working parttime while in school, that they take their oath pretty seriously and don’t want to do anything to jeopardize it. They have poured their blood, sweat and tears into their medical education. They work sometimes 36 hours straight in their internships and residencies and I can testify to the fact that they are paid like dogs. It’s not even a liveable wage at first. Depending on the specialty, a doctor once they have graduated high school will have to go for further education to the tune of a MINIMUM of 11 extra years. that is without specialization. For an extra 11 years you are a general doctor. Specialization is another 3 to 6 years on top of that. So to be an oncologist it requires 14…count’em 14 years beyond high school to get your degree. Brain surgeon is even more. And that is if you take off NO time to do anything else and go straight through. That means many of these doctors don’t even start to work until they are in their 30’s. Many many of them have families and children. Believe me when I tell you that they are married to their work and often don’t get to spend time with the family ESPECIALLY in the beginning years when they are in school. When they are not in school they are in the hospital or studying. It is a grueling existence.
In my case, until I had our daughter I worked to help with my husband’s meager wage. Once he was in Oncology residency and I had an infant at home I couldn’t work any more. God bless the man, but he took moonlighting (extra work) at hospital in a little town that couldn’t find a doctor. At this point he was a board certified Internal Medicine so he could work as a general doctor. He would go to oncology residency on Friday and after school drive straight to the hospital where he would stay on call until Monday morning. He then went back to school on Monday and finally got home on Monday night and crashed into bed exhausted. On top of all that to get the job he had to go through a temp agency that hired docs for hospitals such as this and they took half of his hourly wage as compensation. So he didn’t get to keep all that he earned. But the extra work got us through until he became an oncologist and he found a practice to work in.
Most people will not jeopardize all that they have killed themselves for. It isn’t worth it.
Further in the USA, at least, there is something called the Stark Law. In brief it is a law that does not allow Physicians to gain financial benefit from referrals that may benefit them. In other words NO KICKBACKS. If a doctor is found to have violated that law the consequences are not nice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_Law
I think I’m done with this discussion from my side..
If you’d like to read more of my (arrogant) thoughts on the subject go to my blog blueabaya.blogspot.com 😀
@Africana
“it is clear from a perusal of the list below that jewish teachings on the issue of sexuality are incredibly similar to the understandig that many of you have been conmdemniing as an extreme interpretation. i think that its presence in jewish law in a form so similar to that which is found in shariah points to the idea of this being the correct understading.”
Well, if you are not bound to the idea of Quran being divinely revealed, then the similarity between haredi and shariah law is open to quite a number of interpretations – the most obvious being liberal borrowing from the already existing scriptures by the early Muslims.
I would also add that it’s pretty ironic to put down other people’s books as altered and tampered with, except in places where they happen to agree with your own. In that case, of course, they are TOTALLY on point (sarcasm on.)
@Laylah,
I am not twisting your words.I am telling you that is how you come across. If you cannot take simple criticism then stay away from posting comments. Sorry, but anytime someone starts off with the words “I was where you are”, that is always a good sign they have no argument and all what they are trying to do is dismiss others by making them look inferior.It is bad technique of debating.
Ok, the last part of your comment is good.I thought you had too much emphasis on how women dress in your previous arguments. I do think people that over emphasize the issue of dress do miss the entire point of women liberation. It is about women making their own choices even if it means wearing miniskirt or hijab. The only emphasis here should be on whether it was a free choice or was it forced by some means (including making women feel guilty about their bodies).
Regarding being stupid for wearing a miniskirt,why? Seriously,what harm did you do to the world by that? Why is a girl enjoying her youth such an evil thing? In my opinion you were experimenting like every other youth,girls and boy and you learned through your experiences.Nothing stupid about that.
Stupid things are things of this order:Joining a gang and harming others, stealing, joining a terrorist organization,etc. What you did is normal and part of growing up.
@Africana,
“scholars are a blessing but i don’t, contrary to your assertion”
Back that up with some real information.Show me one place where scholars made a difference to improve humanity. Otherwise what you say is empty slogans.
I can backup the impact physicians made to humanity.All you have to do is look at life expectancy today and compare it to 2 centuries ago.You will notice it doubled thanks to Physicians and scientists that provided us with medicines and care.
Your God and Scholars did not move that needle not even 1 degree in over 1000 years. You are thankful to the wrong people.
Next time you get sick try going to one of your religious healers and let them read for you from their religious books.Then come back here and tell us how well that worked.
@ kasia:
I am very interested how you arrived with the conclusion of yours:
“finally deciding that hijab is a recommendation more than an obligation and that may not necessarily include a scarf”
First, i want to say that i do believe dress plays a role in the sexual dynamics between men and women, but it is only ONE element and most definitely NOT the major one.
The word hijab means a “screen” or a “barrier”. It does not necessarily refer to clothing or particularly a scarf or veil.
MODESTY, in both dress AND behavior is what Qur’an enjoins. I think most all of us, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, can agree that this line is often crossed, which can lead to problems such as promiscuity, sexual abuse and objectification of women.
I’m going to put my comments in two separate categories. First, the concept of obligatory hijab vs. recommended hijab and it’s ramifications and secondly, the evidence of why i think the scarf or veil in particular may not be a necessary part of it. So this post will deal with the first aspect. (part two tomorrow).
There is a HUGE difference between hijab viewed as obligatory and attached with punishment, either in this life or the next, and that recommended for our benefit.
The tone of the Qur’an is definitely one of recommendation and definitely emphasizes it is for the protection and benefit of the woman. Nowhere does it indicate that it is haraam not to have it or that male relatives and authorities have the right to enforce it or that a woman will be punished in the hereafter for not wearing it.
Contrast this to other injunctions in Qur’an such as the prohibition of alcohol or eating pork which are clearly stated with the word “haraam”. Allah is clear about obligation when he wants to be.
The concept of obligatory hijab has some very negative consequences in society at large. The idea that women are NOT ALLOWED to be seen can too easily be manipulated that it is the obligation of men to segregate us, not for our privacy, comfort or security, but for the darker purpose of discrimination, marginalization and ultimate control. It’s an easy pill for us females to swallow, since these insidious practices are swathed in religious duty. Everybody’s happy.
True motives are clear when spurious hadeeth and scholarly opinion emphasize the evil nature of women and paint us as toys and temptresses. These are in blatant opposition to the Qur’an.
True motives are clear in KSA society. If security, dignity and comfort of women were the priority, much more attention would be paid to domestic abuse, child brides, forced marriages and giving women the right to drive instead of forcing us into taxis with complete strangers to get our business done. These are all issues in which men would have to relinquish control.
The fact that veiling is clearly cultural was brought home in an article i read about the development of hijab. It was noted that, “Veiling and confining women to the home, rendering them invisible, and segregating them from all men except close relatives were hallmarks of urban upper-and-middle-class harem culture.”
“Women’s sexual purity was linked to the honor of the men and their family while men’s sexual purity was not linked to their own honor nor to that of their women and family.”
This remains the truth of general Arab/Muslim society, and it is proof positive that so many things the average Muslim assumes was initiated by the Prophet’s message is actually a hangover of regional culture long before.
In reality, hijab is NOT the sixth pillar of Islam. It is simply a recommendation that is on the same plane as many others that Allah has made in order for us the achieve nearness to Him and our full human potential.
I would venture to guess that, culturally, a man’s sexual prowess was (and is) seen as much more of a virtue than his purity, which brings us back around to the inescapable fact that enforced hijab for women is a great loophole for men to sidestep their Islamic obligations of self-control, resulting in that the deeper spiritual purity of heart and mind that Allah wants for us all does not develop.
If hijab is not viewed as obligatory, then the women who choose to wear it are sending a message that cannot be denied – i’m not interested, you have no right to see me, leave me alone – and we can go about our business in society, which is exactly what Allah intended.
Men also have to learn to lower their gaze and control themselves instead of throwing the burden all on us to save them from their wild desires. Wake up, guys! You are responsible for yourselves! Your OWN honor! How many times does Qur’an speak of “wronging your ownselves.” Does “One cannot bear the burden of another” sound slightly familiar?
Muslim men would be forced to regard all women as human beings worthy of respect, WHETHER OR NOT WE WEAR THE SCARF OR VEIL, instead of flying off to foreign countries to take advantage of the uncovered floozies.
Recommended vs. obligatory hijab would make intentions pure and actions authentic for both genders. This is what truly counts in the Hereafter; not a superficial morality.
So my comments on slutty wild west women has been insulting to western women as someone above said. How is it then when people insult islam and muslims women, it is all ok? Or is it only you that cannot be insulted? Duble standards again.
Yes I did say that I am talking about general women – not all. And those who wear “decent” clothes are often too tight to reveal the shape which is not just half but full naked. Where am I getting this from? I have people from the west tell me this. People who are just disgusted with it. And its not only in the wild west where they wear such revealing clothes, it is even here in the ME. They do not respect the culture here at all and yet they come here and make money and eat and enjoy their life and complain about the place they life and to top it all they walk around wearing hardly anything. This I can see and it embarrases even the men. It makes them look so cheap. To them maybe its just a normal way. I have women coming into my shop wearing what looks like just underwears.
We cannot deny that the men use women to advertise their products with sexual tones. Why do women agree to do this unless its for the pay or to boost their self-confidence or they are just plain slutty. I mean any women who has some self-respect will not allow her body to be displayed in such a manner.
Yes coolred seems to think that the world revolves around her bad experience. Not everthing is about you. And as much as I sympathise with you, I have seen worst things than that and people just move on. Even women from the west who sufferred with men from the west. Don’t tell me that western men are saints. They have done worst. In the end men are men. They usually have one thing on their minds.
I would dearly love for those calling me bitter to copy and paste even one comment I left that leaves me sounding bitter?
Not only am I not bitter….I answer others comments based on MY experience because they are MY experiences. I cannot comment on others experience except in the context that I know some women ….or lived that life for 23 years. I do believe I have the right to comment and give my opinion…whether or not anyone here agrees with it or not is beside the point…but that doesnt make me bitter.
bitter would be if I said I HATE all arabs and muslims…bitter would be if I said Islam should be banned from the planet….bitter would be if I could not find even the smallest ounce of joy in the world anymore due to my experiences. The fact that none of that is true seems to indicate that I am not bitter.
Angry yes…bitter no.
So please…all of you singling me out as a bitter person based on my comments alone…please show me where I have expressed bitterness in my answers…then I can decide whether your accusations are just…or you just cant come up with a good rebuttal to my statements so resort to calling me bitter.
Im thinking its that one.
Waiting….
What happened to just being a good person?
This is the reason that while continuing to believe in God I have absolutely no interest in joining up with an organised religion. Never do I see a discussion these days in a religious context about being a good person. Instead its about which rules will ‘supposedly’ get you on the door list to heaven. Did not Jesus (Prophet/Son of God, whatever you choose) chastise the Jews multiple times for paying more attention to their rules than the message of God to love and forgive?
This is man’s futile effort to gain brownie points in a system he can’t even begin to understand. Religion needs to stop focusing on the rules they’ve manufactured (based on their, not God’s, interpretation of a holy text) and start imploring people to be good. If we all worked at being good then all those rules will become part of our lives, whether we knew it or not. Instead we have stopped bothering with being good and stumble all over ourselves to try and win points by choosing rules that we believe will make us more ‘pious’. We forget that God is not so petty.
For me, when or if I’m judged, I’d prefer to be there knowing that, despite my sins I am still a good person. God knows the difference between your heart and your outward actions. You’re fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
NN, thank you, I was thinking exactly the same things and now I don’t have to write it because you do.
MoQ, Waw, you really understand what it is really all about: choice. The freedom to choose. And that from a man, brilliant!
And you are also right about young kids, they experiment, they need to experiment. They need to try things out, to make their own mistakes in order to become balanced grown ups.
I am always impressed with your insights.
I think scholars and religious leaders, priests etc. are leeches. they feed of their ”flock” while burdening them with ”divine” rules and restrictions, all the time being obsessed with sex and holding people back from developing themselves. The more ”religious” a society is, the more backward it is. We only have the technological advances we have now have all been discovered and developed in secular countries, where religious leaders have to behave themselves.
A lot of Muslim scholars are really like leeches, just suck money and make their creepy beards grow while infecting the world with the kind of bull*t we see expressed by some of their gullible simpletons here on this threat.
Maggie, excellent comment. Why has ”being covered” been made into a sixth pillar? (for women) Because men get an advantage out of it.
If you look at old photographs from Arabia you will most women wearing reasonable dresses, suitable to the climate, a piece of cloth or cap on top of their heads, their arms free, their long tresses braided and hanging in front of them. These women had to work. There is a reason only upperclass Jewish women veiled in the time of the prophet: You can’t do your chores when confined in a black tent and have your breathing restricted.
Saramd, you are very deluded if you think that anybody has ”insulted” muslim (you mean totally covered saudi muslim I suppose) women here, especially comparedd with the insane wicked propaganda nonsense you’ve been spewing here about the on the whole decent women of the ”Wicked West”.
I do get a certain pleasure out of your posts because they are so utterly insane and a good example of the crap stupid people in the middle east believe about the ”Wicked West”.
Coolred, they call you ”bitter”, and Sara MD (Mad & Dim-witted?) tries to invalidate your sufferings because you and your children have really suffered horrors unimaginable by the hands of a Muslim man, a Muslim Family, a Muslim society, and a Muslim ”Justice” system. And that also includes the knowledge you have from living in a Muslim country for 20 years.
They have to deny you and your experiences and knowledge because otherwise they would have to reflect on their lives and choices, and also they would have to admit the truth, that Muslims are not automatically faultless and superior to all other people on the planet.
Besides, They feel better and safer if they marginalise your experiences and knowledge, because if you are made out to be ”bitter” and ”should move on” , then they make themselves believe it can’t happen to them. (and what happened wasn’t really that bad anyway)
@Sarah MD
“Where am I getting this from? I have people from the west tell me this. People who are just disgusted with it. And its not only in the wild west where they wear such revealing clothes, it is even here in the ME. They do not respect the culture here at all and yet they come here and make money and eat and enjoy their life and complain about the place they life and to top it all they walk around wearing hardly anything. This I can see and it embarrases even the men. It makes them look so cheap. To them maybe its just a normal way. I have women coming into my shop wearing what looks like just underwears. ”
I see that your entire tirade on the wicked sluttiness of the West based on these estimable sources:
a. People “from the West” who tell you this.
b. People who come into your shop wearing “underwears”.
c. Your general disgust with Westerners who come into your country, make good money, enjoy life, the evil bastards! and dare to not copy the locals and remain themselves.
I wish you would have informed us before that your views were based on this unshakable, learned scholarship (I’m being sarcastic here.) People here were actually bothering to respond to you like your comments were based on something serious. Silly me.
P.S. When you travel to the West, should I expect you to “respect the culture here” and change your outfits too? That is, if you ever girdle your loins enough to step into the land of wicked sluts.
@moq,
“Show me one place where scholars made a difference to improve humanity. Otherwise what you say is empty slogans.
I can backup the impact physicians made to humanity.All you..”
the discussion here is about gender segregation and modesty of dress. i am not sure what relevance this has to the overall conversation. that one group of peole might have contributed more in terms of the uplifting the physical condition of humanity than another does not make islam any less true (which is what i think you’re getting at,here).
although, virtuous scholars (and let us be clear there have been some exceptions, especially those that declared themselves to be God) through their stressing the importance of obedience to God and God’s attributes have uplifted humanity spiritually. they’ve also paved the way for medicine and science by making us aware of the presence of verses and hadith which speak of how for every disease God has sent down a cure.
When I was in Riyadh I saw some male doctors who seemed to be incredibly nervous around women. Once I went in with a throat infection and the doctor stood 1 m away and didn’t examine me at All, prescribed a bag full of goodies (you never escape from a Saudi hospital with less than a small pharmacopia..), but sure enough I was back a week later because it was worse and I was wishing he’d examined me properly the first time!! In my opinion it makes it more uncomfortable for Everyone if the doctor is too scared to examine a female patient, it brings in sex where it is never meant to be.
Also as far as scanty dress and behaviour, on the compound I was at they banned all guests from the swimming pool over weekends because of the trouble residents had with some Arab men who would get themselves invited to the compound and then sit there drooling and eyeing up all the women. Western men are usually taught to behave better than that by age 12. Sure SOME women want to men to look at them and think they look good (others of us just want a nice cool swim on a hot day or to play with our kids in the pool so that they are safe…), but even they want to be treated with respect and appreciated subtly not by some idiot with his eyes bugging out and his tongue on the ground! Some of these men I might add, brought their fully covered wives along to watch while they ogled other women!!!
And don’t get me started on the male lingerie assistants! It was impossible to buy even the most boring nightdress without them trying to lead you over to the sexy panties and say “I think this will fit you”. I quickly gave up on the whole thing and bought what I needed outside the kingdom! I used to think, just try and tell me that over-enthusiastic young guy is not thinking “impure” thoughts!!!!
claire,
as i stated previously wolves will be wolves. that such people, as you describe, exist doesn’t negate the importance of modesty of dress for women and the lowering of gazes. these people who chose to visit a western dominated compound would have been in spite of appearbces not terribly religiously inclined, of that i can assure you. people who fear God keep away from places such as poolsides. honestly i see why the hadih tells us that even from mecca and medina(?) there will be those who will follw the anti-christ. honestly, i don’t know why people talk about saudi as though it were some islamic utopia if it allows these dens of impropriety to operate. not that i am denying the imporatnce of hijrah if one feels it necessary.
modesty of dress in and of itself is not going to be of much help where a man is a wolf intent on deriving visula pleasure from a woman. this is why women need avoid crowded places and unnecessary interractions with men.
where modesty of dress and conduct really comes into its own is in the assistance that it gives those men and women who are striving to not allow the gaze to fall on anything forbidden
The suspicions aimed at doctors here are sick.
Very sad to see people so twisted and diseased in their minds to write these accusations.
I am sure when they have cancer they will be happy for a good docter to look after them.
@ NN I can tell you there is at least one saudi man who is very good in bed. but he is mine and you can’t have him!
@ Claire, everybody who can go abroad buys their undies abroad… pfew!
My saudi hubby read this, he allowed me to share his comment:
”men get 10 hard ons a day . the world will not come to an end because of it. No H-bomb will go off. People will not die. the earth will not shake.
the moon will not get out of orbit when a girl wears a mini skirt.
The saudis dress women in garbage bags so they do not cause hard ons.
Now the garbage bags produce the hard ons.
because a hard on is a natural state for men
so it is futile
something we should not try to fix. it adds spice to life.”
@africana,
Yes the topic was about modesty, but you took it as an opportunity to bash a noble profession. This was based on sick concepts of sexuality that you receive from your scholars. You are the one who strayed off topic with your comment.
Note your response of your scholars giving us science is another empty slogan that you cannot back up. It seems that is all you have is slogans.
At the end of the day, the point is you follow scholars that lead you to an irrational view of the world. This includes the topic modesty. They have twisted your view of the world to a point that you blame women for many issues of society just because they choose to dress differently than what the scholars told them to. It is this unrealistic view of the world that they installed in your head that makes you an irrational person. Until you learn to think for yourself you will not get this topic.
@NN
“P.S. When you travel to the West, should I expect you to “respect the culture here” and change your outfits too? That is, if you ever girdle your loins enough to step into the land of wicked sluts”
OK first of all, I do not plan to travel to the west and second of all, I did not say that western’s in the ME should cover but they should repect the culture and dress decent. Families do not like to go to certain places because of these westerners who are undressed. Even the people in the remote jungles of Africa are covered more than these people.
I was shocked to see one woman step out of her office in high heels that were so high that she could barely control herself and her efforts to walk made her breats pop out of her low necked outfit. That is how she goes to office? I mean ….
My friend in NY said she was in a class in the college when a classmate arrived late. She walked in front of the whole class wearing only a very thin transparent shirt. Everything was just visible.
These are only some of the examples.
@ africana
this bit you wrote and the principle behind it simply makes me hit the roof:
“modesty of dress in and of itself is not going to be of much help where a man is a wolf intent on deriving visula pleasure from a woman. this is why women need avoid crowded places and unnecessary interractions with men”
you are a woman and you say that if a guy is a wolf who derives visual pleasures from looking at a woman it is the woman’s NEED TO AVOID crowded places and unnecessary interactions with men. why does the woman need to do so? how is it a guy, who clearly don’t know how to control himself, not obliged to do that? why do you put the burden of keeping men moral and out of mischief on women? how is that my responsibility as a woman?
i think that someone already mentioned here that each of us is responsible for our own actions and will be judged accordingly.
it was Maggie:
“Men also have to learn to lower their gaze and control themselves instead of throwing the burden all on us to save them from their wild desires. Wake up, guys! You are responsible for yourselves! Your OWN honor! How many times does Qur’an speak of “wronging your ownselves.” Does “One cannot bear the burden of another” sound slightly familiar?”
and I second her with that.
However, if a Muslim lady feels that by covering she is pleasing Allah and she feels she is doing the right thing, let her do it! She has a right to do that as much as a girl from the west to wear a mini skirt! It’s a personal choice.
But do not impose it on her simply because guys get worked up over an ankle or an inch of a forearm, of course it’s said it’s for a woman protection. If you think that’s a reason enough for you to cover then just think who you’re really serving and being obedient to: Allah or males?
@Maggie
thank you very much for you explanation of hijab and it does make sense to me. I’m looking forward to the second part tmrw yey 🙂 Are you Muslim btw? apologies for a personal question!
@ Africana
Your post about how Jewish and Muslim law can be similar in regards to sexuality got me thinking about the North American Indians who are/were Animists. No religion for them and no scholars telling them how to act. They did NOT go about raping women and animals or breaking all the laws you quoted. My point here is that humans for the most part are very sensible animals who will behave well without someone telling them to do it.
@Sarahmd
If western women want to run about looking ‘slutty’ as you say then what it to women in the ME anyway? I can add that there are times that I’d rather see some very large NA women in abayas rather than in tight stretchy pants and tank tops. I will agree that in this case they’d be much more sexy encased in the black robe. 🙂
We all dress different but I think some of my Saudi female relatives would Love, Love, Love the chance to walk down a street wearing their beautiful fashionable clothes unencumbered by an abaya.
@kasia,
isn’t it more approppraite the public space should be the preserve of those charged with earning a living?
i don’t believe any of the eminent sholars of islam such as imam shafi,malik, abu hanifa or ibn hanbal ever came to maggie’s conclusion. nor indeeed has any scholar worth his salt ever arrived at the conclusion that hijab is merely a recomendation.
If a doctor tells you, “take these tablets”..why is that understood as a command whilst an order from the Creator who knows us better than we know ourselves is merely a recomendation.
human beings by thier nature are weak and choose the easy option. God, in his wisdom knows that, and wouldn’t leave it up to us to apply only those rules that we see fit.
@Africana
OMG. PUBLIC space is for THE PUBLIC- half of which are WOMEN.
MUSLIM WOMEN- OFTEN need to earn a living whether they would like to or not. That is the reality of life.
Any man that cannot control himself to not behave as an animal should certainly stay home. But that is no reason women should. Allah gifted us with a big wide world full of challenges and blessings. When someone gives me a gift like that- I try to show my appreciation by using it- not ignoring it.
It is true that some Muslim women use the MEN’S STUPID interpretations as an excuse to HIDE from their lives. HIDING is not the same thing as resisting temptation. HIDING is simply a cowardly act.
How can hiding, inexperienced, incapable women competently raise children? They can’t. So now it’s an excuse for bad parenting as well. Your choice if you like, but don’t blame Islam, or Allah for the crippling, stifling choices you make- and stop trying to foist them on others. It is not your right. Leave everyone else alone to LIVE.
“isn’t it more approppraite the public space should be the preserve of those charged with earning a living?”
I think I just heard a collective *thump* when every woman reading this threads jaw just hit the floor.
Excuse me, I’ll just pick myself up off the floor… I think I may have just had a minor stroke.
🙂
NN…
“P.S. When you travel to the West, should I expect you to “respect the culture here” and change your outfits too? That is, if you ever girdle your loins enough to step into the land of wicked sluts.”
Love that! It is always about those going to Muslim countries and remaining in western attire (the shame) and yet if someone who covers there comes here they don’t change their attire to assimilate to the country. Seems to me if you want something from someone you need to be prepared to give it back!
@africana…
“they’ve also paved the way for medicine and science by making us aware of the presence of verses and hadith which speak of how for every disease God has sent down a cure.”
That applies only if you are a Muslim. The rest of us are able to accept that diseases exist without the benefit of a scholar.
@africana
i’m still recovering from your comment :O
i think you just reduced yourself to a second class citizen that should make space for those more worthy – cause they earn the living obviously. You reduced your importance as a woman and as a human being. if you feel good and content with that then good for you my dear!
I would be outraged if someone offered me such an ‘opportunity’ and I choose not to go for it.
i don’t want to read into things but you seem to think that those who earn living, on the contrary to bringing up children, are superior. It is sooo true that the housework and looking after children are never appreciated! but it doesn’t mean that the role of a mother is less important!
Qur’an says that men and women are equal but are different. I don’t see how that should make any woman to clear the space for males and of course stay at home in order not to arouse them. *sigh*
@kasia,
no, you missed the point. wolves are wolves. much as we would like that some men are not wolves they are and will never reform nless, it is Giod’s will. wishful thinking and putting oneself in harm’s way is not going to change them so it therefore best to take the precautionary route.
sure, a wolf is punished under shariah even if a woman were starkers…(real shariah, not what passes for it in some places) the man is dealt with under shariah but does she not bear some burden of responsibilty, not even a modicum, if she stood naked in front of a salvating wolf?
@oby,
as far as i am aware the bible doesn’t madate mini skirts so your comment about double standards doesn’t really work.
@africana
“does she not bear some burden of responsibilty, not even a modicum, if she stood naked in front of a salvating wolf?”
while I admit it would be a foolish choice, even if she turns and wiggles her tush at him, he still has no right to touch her or violate her in any way. Do you think for one moment if a woman walked up to my husband touched him inappropriately and said something suggestive to indicate she wanted to have sex and he bit I would be understanding? I’d give him a smack upside his head because no matter what she did he had the obligation to turn and walk away and not take the bait. I’d be pissed at he for sure, but I would find him more at fault for taking what was offered when he knows he shouldn’t It is called personal responsibility.
@africana…
I didn’t make mention of mini skirts I think you have my comment confused with someone else.
what I DID say is that in the ME people expect westerners visiting there to respect their culture and change their dress to a more modest one yet when Muslims who cover come here from the ME they don’t change anything to respect our culture. They still wear what they did at home. It is a double standard.
@ Africana.
Get this into your head: If MEN can’t control themselves. Then MEN have a problem. If MEN make it impossible for women to be in public places: then MEN should be avoiding these places.
”should space be reserved for those who are charged with earning a living”
NO
Space should be reserved for those who can act like normal civilised humans!
you are so brainwashed with this ridiculous and unislamic thinking: women are responsible for the wrongs men do!
At least you should shut yourself up in a dark room and not bother others with this.
Hijab is MENs invention. it is not in the Quran. The Quran does not even use the word hijab like it is used now. It meant just a curtain or cover like tablecloth.
Maggie wrote a good post on this.
You should stop worshipping scholars.
Scholars are in no way better from other people.
In fact they are useless.
If the quran is clear and for the whole world and for all times then there can be no problems understanding it.
there can be no need for scholars.
You should be able to understand it for yourself.
Scholars are redundant.
They do not want to say the quran in simple because their meal ticket depends on it..
scholars have their own advantage in mind. they get paid with money, adulation and worship. They get rewarded with political power for making up stuff like ”Hijab is the will of Allah”
They have wishes too. Scholars wish for women to be the slaves of men. So they make up rules which keep women tied to their home.
Or locked up in a garbage bag. Anything to annihilate their personality and free will.
And you have swollowd it all like a good silly little girl.
You cannot even make one logical comment here.
You have surrendered your intellect, your strength, your freedom, your independence. You worship the scholars and all the crap they feed you with.
We sould leave the public spaces to those who are more worthy… eg men
It’s hard to believe there are people who are this stupid.
Oh dear,
If I were standing naked in front of a salivating wolf I would get my mobile and call the zoo.
Oh no!
My mobile is in the little pocket of my little mini–skirt!
I was só wrong! I so see the need for being dressed now!
By the Goddess of the Invisible Pink Unicorn! I am having so much fun here!
Is there anybody who does not agree with Giorgia’s idea that Carol should put up PayPal account and that we should all put in our couple of dollars a week?
Africana, Nas, and Sandy MD (Mildly Deranged?) and Layla do not have to pay, they are part of the entertainment.
I am now going to read the rest of the amusing comments.
About women dressing slutty, I guess you have never been to a wedding in saudi? I have never seen more expensive designer bras popping out of cleaviges in my life!
As well as wobbling about on designer stillettos!
It would be very inetresting to see what women would really wear in saudi.
if they were not forced to wear abaya.
As it is I have seen girls in mini skirts and their abaya open in Jeddah. (causing excitement)
I think it would be the same mix of dress like what we see in other countries.
@Aafke
Um… so is Sandy Mildly Deranged your latet name for me? Whatever.
@ save the Women!
I am still laughing over your post!!! I totally understand why cameras are not allowed. OMG … that’s the only thing I could say to the relative that brought me to the wedding for about an hour or so as I looked around It was a large wedding with maybe 1000 women!. Never in my life have I seen such a spectacle of bodies being stuffed into over the top designer dresses with, as you say, bras and cleavage popping out and make-up like it was done by the Cirque de Soleil people! And then there were the wigs and hairstyles. It was the first time at a wedding I was body scanned and searched to ensure I didn’t have a camera. And then there was the flurry of abaya, hijab and niqab donning before the men came in …………………………… all except me that is.
SaraMD (Mentally Disturbed?) people in Africa, at least some of them, walk about naked with only beads for decoration. Which btw, doesn’t stop the majority of African men from behaving in a civilized manner. I do think black people always look much better naked then white people but still…
And I am not surprised you do not want to travel to ”the West” (a very big place btw, consisting of many different countries, cultures and religions and customs, and dresscodes) because if you were to travel to ”the West” you would have to eat your words because you would see that people dress very decently here. Not only that, imagine going to a swimmingpool and seeing all the people in swimwear, having a good and decent time, and all the men not ogling and salivating over women.
God beware you would get an incling of how civilized people behave!
You would be forced by reason and logic to agree that forced sex-segregation and covering every inch of women’s skin and gender apartheit makes idiotic sex-maniacs out of men.
STW, *
My saudi hubby read this, he allowed me to share his comment:
”men get 10 hard ons a day . the world will not come to an end because of it. No H-bomb will go off. People will not die. the earth will not shake.
the moon will not get out of orbit when a girl wears a mini skirt.
The saudis dress women in garbage bags so they do not cause hard ons.
Now the garbage bags produce the hard ons.
because a hard on is a natural state for men
so it is futile
something we should not try to fix. it adds spice to life”*
ROTFL!!!!! Brilliant!!!
Thanks for sharing! Always good to hear a man’s comment
NN, So few people understand the importance of shoes… especially those with high stilletto heels! I need to write a post on my best shoes!
Maggie, agree wholeheartily with your comment that every person (even a man) is responsible for their own behaviour. Even if you are religious, especially muslim. Isn’t it written that only God can see into peoples hearts? That all you do is between you and God?
I’m catching up on having been away from internet and finding the comments and dialogues fascinating.
I wish to comment upon a particular comment made early in the thread:
“I too do not have anything against any one particular western women, I am just against their slutty fashion sense and general behaviour, (gererally) and the way advertising world uses women in sexual tones.”
I took great umbrage on the remark of “slutty fashion sense” of western women. I have observed some of the most unique fashions while attending Saudi weddings. I have been amazed by the styles of dress I have seen at these weddings. I am not going to use the term ‘slutty fashion sense’ but I will say that many women dressed provocatively and revealing in their chosen outfits, hairstyles and make-up. Then on top of that, many of these women would dance suggestively with other women, breast to breast while undulating their bodies.
Oh Jeez! Sandy, I am sooo sorry! I was playing a wordgame on Sara MD because I am miffed with her because she marginalises Coolred, and tells her people have suffered worse and just moved on. That is sick and evil.
And I am soo sorry I accidentally put Sandy instead. I know you are angry with me and have some reason for it, but still I really like your comments and I think you are very clever. Not deranged at all.
Sorry.
”suggestive” dancing?
Some saudi ”dancing” is só xxx-rated it is too much for a slutty westerner to look at!
I really think that the women are oversexed too in effect of all this segregation.
They are dying to know about men and what men do.
Or they have lesbian relationships. One of my friend did not send her daughter to a certain school because she found out there were so many lesbian couples.
@Carol,
When I was talking about the wedding I completely forgot about the ‘dirty dancing’ the women were doing and the catwalk struts……..
@Aafke
No worries about this- I admit I was puzzled ’cause nothing I wrote here seemed to merit that.
I agree about Coolred. She is really not that bitter- I hate to think what I’d be like in her situation. And her situation is not limited to HER it exposes a whole system. And you know darn well, she’s not the only one that has suffered this way, but one of the few brave enough to shine a light on it.
Oh, lets just come out and say it. They wear sheer clothes and you can see their knickers underneath. And what knickers!!
Let me tell you about a conversation I witnessed between two ladies here in the U.S. One is my Saudi sister-in-law, 45 years old, faithful hijabi, young-looking, immature for her age. At that point she has just arrived to the U.S. to start her studies. The second was a Saudi (of Palestinian origins) wife of a Palestinian-American friend of ours – early thirties, pretty, doesn’t cover, has been in the U.S. for close to two years at that point.
SIL: “I can’t figure out what to wear here. It’s so diverse and I see all kinds of people around me, so I need to figure out how to dress. It’s so different from back home.”
Wife of a friend: “Back home, you should cover everything because people observe and judge you, and will talk about you. Here you can wear whatever you want, because whatever you choose, nobody cares. Even if you were to walk the streets wearing a bikini, no one would even turn their head or notice.”
I thought it was a revealing insight into the reasons some people cover. It’s all about “what the neighbors would say.” Patai covered it beautifully in The Arab Mind.
I’ve been reading this thread for the last couple days, I agree it has been very entertaining! I can’t help but shake my head at the idea that all western women are sluts who prance about half naked begging men to rape them. This is ridiculous and doesn’t serve anything, just as saying all Muslim women are all the same. I am a ‘jeans and a t-shirt’ kinda gal…I suppose that would make me a slut in some peoples’ eyes, depending on their world viewpoint.
Some people seem to have forgotten the main point of the article – women who don’t conform and follow the proper dress code (covering up fully) in KSA = risk being harassed by the muttawa and hit with sticks or worse. If I ever go to the KSA, I will be wearing an abaya and a headscarf because otherwise I have to face the wrath of the muttawa. Here in the evil, evil, decadent West, I could throw on an abaya, niqab, etc. etc. and don’t have to worry about harassment from law enforcement. Or, I could throw on a mini-skirt and a barely-there sheer top and still won’t face harassment from law enforcement. It’s my choice to wear jeans and a t-shirt, it’s my roommate’s choice to wear girly tops and shiny sandals, it’s my Iranian friend’s choice to wear a long coat and pretty floral hijab, and it’s my Somalian friend’s choice to wear the abaya (and she has some seriously cool hijabs!). Do we judge each other on our attire, clucking our tongues? No! That’s the beauty of it! Does any of us face any sort of harassment? No.
As for the horny ob/gyn comments…seriously? I mean really…imagine eating your favourite dish everyday for the rest of your life. Would you still salivate over it a few years later? I doubt it.
@Africana,
I would just like to address one other little bit of scripted nonsense you stated. That somehow NOT wearing hijab is the “easy” option. Well, I disagree. No it isn’t. It’s just as hard to NOT wear hijab as a Muslim.
I wore hijab for many years while living in the west and in Saudi. It wasn’t a big deal. I now refuse to wear it in Saudi Arabia and sometimes that IS a big deal. I am sick to death of Hijabi’s acting like they are doing some big hard thing- because they are not. If you are convinced it is what Allah mandates- it should be easy.
saby,
i don’t think i ever said that. perhaps you confused me with someone else. it couldn’t habe been me as my opinion is the eact opposite. if we re talking about the hijab vs. revealing clothes (as a westerner would understand revealing clothes) then i do think tha requirs that we go against our in born sense of shame. if someone, especially a muslim who should know better, goes from, for example, goes around with uncovered arms in a society where having covered arms doesn’t single you out as weird, then i would view their action as beinga deliberate move away from modesty.
i meant sandy
@Africana,
From your response to Maggie about Hijab
“human beings by thier nature are weak and choose the easy option. ”
Sure makes it seem you think NOT wearing hijab is the easy option.
I uncovered my head as a deliberate move to stop supporting false oppressive teaching attributed to Islam. It has nothing to do with modestly one way or another, but about false, innovative rulings.
Sandy, 🙂
I think coolred is very cool, and not at all bitter. She can cut through bullsh*t like a knife through butter and actually has a good sense of humor left. She is an amazingly strong person.
That does not mean it is ok or acceptable to minimize what she and her children had to suffer, just so the minimizers can feel better about themselves and the fairytales they want to protect. To deny the truth of what somebody like coolred has gone through is a crime against her. It makes for more suffering . It is evil.
Deal with it fairytale believers! Coolred has been through a lot, and she is by no means the only one. She has suffered at the hands of a muslim man, family and justice system. No amount of fairytales can change that. Muslim men suck big time just like other men on the planet, even those in the ”Wicked West”
With the proviso that in the ”Wicked West” there are laws and people to help victims of abuse.
And don’t anybody dare to to marginalise Coolred ever again!
Interesting, about the Saudi wedding dresscode and ”suggestive” dancing. I have heard about it before of course. I would love to see it.
Why don’t the denouncers of the ”Slutty Women of the Wicked West” comment on the ”Slutty Women of the Hypocritical Middle East”????
Or can we agree that any woman, from any part of the world, can choose her own dress to please herself and nobody has the right to judge her on that?
And by not acting all lower-class and calling her names like ”slutty”?
@ stacey: “What happened to just being a good person?”
Loved your comment!
@kasia: Yes, i am an American Muslim, 20 + years
@africana:
“i don’t believe any of the eminent scholars of islam such as imam shafi,malik, abu hanifa or ibn hanbal ever came to maggie’s conclusion. nor indeeed has any scholar worth his salt ever arrived at the conclusion that hijab is merely a recomendation.”
So sorry to see that you worship the scholars instead of Allah.
I personally have no use for scholars who consider me a sex slave; blame all trials and misfortunes on me; say that hijab and segregation is a PUNISHMENT for my behavior in the Garden; state that i am mean, immoral and full of mischief; deny me my right to education, advocate that my husband beat me….should i go on? Imam Ghazali did all this, and he is considered an eminent scholar. Actually THE eminent scholar.
If you do not see how this serves their misogynist agenda and how these assertions are BLATANtLY AGAINST the dignity that Allah enjoined for women in Qur’an . . . well, i just don’t know what to say.
I made my “bayah” to Allah. All these man-made “schools and rules” were imposed long after the gift of Qur’an – and such a clergy was never directed by Allah. Islam is supposed to be easily understood by everyone. We don’t need intermediary scholars. The only thing they are good for is to make sure we see the world the way they want us to see it.
God gave me an intellect and He allows me to use it. I guess you are not allowed, since you probably follow the scholars and believe you don’t have one.
I am not alone in my conclusions. There are many Muslims who are challenging the concept, because they see the truth of how it really plays out, but it will upset the status quo of male superiority, so we are told we don’t understand, we are undermining the faith…blah, blah.
If you are happy to be locked in your house and out of the public space and told you are a stupid, evil temptress, who doesn’t deserve to be seen, fine. I personally, will never accept that.
@ savethewomen:
Thanks for sharing your husband’s comment. God gave us feelings and natural inclinations and this neurotic obsession with rules, fear and guilt over every little thought and action goes totally against that nature.
As stacey brilliantly said, if we just concentrate on being good people, we will naturally fall in line with what God wants and for relations between women and men, all He asks is modesty and respect. Period.
@sarahMD: I usually don’t find it productive to reply to incendiary comments but i find yours about slutty Western women very insulting, and your prejudice against non-Muslims and Westerners, in particular, is quite clear.
You try to temper your comments by saying you are referring to the general population and you know there are some “respectable” people. Well, FYI, the general population are good, respectable people and those who aren’t are the minority.
You complain about unjust stereotypes of Muslim women and then you turn around and do the same thing. Bit hypocritical. You should take time out of the judgment seat to put a critical eye to your own self-righteous, arrogant atttitude.
Good night, everyone.
@aafke,
i’m wondering as to whether it is you who has a fundamental problem with women’s bodies. i see know shame in a woman’s beautifying herself as long asit’s in front of the appropriate audience. whilst i personally wouldn’t dress in the manner that the wedding attendees are described as dressing it doesn’t give me the same cause for concern as if it were out in the street. yet you also find this problematic.
Just one more thing –
Mel, i loved your picture of all the different choices in your circle of friends.
The West is a place where God’s injunction “no compulsion in religion” can truly be followed.
You should read my comment.
I have a problem with people calling the women of whole continents ”sluts”. while ignoring their own backyard.
As far as I’m concerned everybody can hop around naked.
If you think we are designed by a God you can only come to the conclusion that as we are born naked, without clothes, without fur, She has no problems with naked skin and neither should we.
I bet if all people on the planet walked around naked not even the men would be ”aroused” anymore.
Maggie, secular countries are the places where one can follow ones religion freely. America at least has a constitution which makes it impossible to favour religion. Any religion.
Like MoQ said earlier, it is choice which is the essence of freedom.
I liked the description of Mel’s friends too, I saw a happy colourful group in my minds eye. 🙂
I was thinking something like that when doing my shopping at the market last week, I saw students, German tourists, ladies in hijab, a lady in abaya, a black lady in a beautiful combination of orange and black, Chinese families, a farmer and his family, assorted city people, two ladies in regional costume from the middle of the Netherlands, Indonesian girls, one of my artist friends painting a streetscene, such a colourful scene!
And all in a small city in the Netherlands. I wouldn’t want to miss such a colourful assortment of different people, nationalities and dress!
@maggie
“So sorry to see that you worship the scholars instead of Allah.
I personally have no use for scholars who consider me a sex slave; blame all trials and misfortunes on me; say that hijab and segregation is a PUNISHMENT for my behavior in the Garden; state that i am mean, immoral and full of mischief; deny me my right to education, advocate that my husband beat me….should i go on? Imam Ghazali did all this, and he is considered an eminent scholar. Actually THE eminent scholar.”
Hmm (getting closer to whispering in your ear)…… I think the Christians said it first… They say women are the root of all evil…
But then I thought, no, there must be more to the absolutely, unadulterated hate, rancor towards women… Simple minded me went to Ask.com. And asked, “who said women are the root of all evil?” Advance search exact words.. Got 360 hits…
A Saudi “cleric” in 2004 said- guess who? Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Abdullah al-Sheikh after Lubna al-Olayan’ speech at the 2004 Economic Forum in Jeddah.
Zeus- banished Pandora, the first woman created by Hephaestus, as punishment for Prometheus’ stealing the gods’ fire.
Ben Sirah’s Book of Wisdom belonging to Apocypha..’For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness (Ecclus.42:13)
St. Augustine…
I’ll just give you the link… Half way through it and I wanted to do an Apache War dance or go skin someone’s scalp as the French taught the Native Americans…
I just have to say one thing- for as long as there have been religions, and men have been at the helm, this is what they say of their mothers, sisters, daughters, and wives (concubines…I don’t know about those…) So please those women that only know how denigrade other women for their choices, for the ones that would have us hide in oblivion, careful because no matter what you do men of the religious type will always view you as ‘the Root of All Evil.’
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=203
@ Inal
You are correct. But …. many people and some religions have advanced beyond the ancient scriptures fortunately.
Yes Wendy, people have- but those that would control at the very least 1.6 Billion people are hell bent in keeping their heads in 7th Century sand dunes…
Its those who have brainwashed excuses for brains who are even more dangerously insidious…
Eeeeek!this stuff is… Ma barif
Inal – I got that. I guess I was trying to not point fingers.
Wendy after getting pointed- no wait- shoveled at; the least I could do was point a full set of fingers…
My husband says he is extremely glad our daughters have grown up on this side of the galaxy…he says at least they’ll have a life that has dignity- and that man loves his daughters to pieces!
@africana,
oh good lord, you have some weird views on doctors. and no male gynecs don’t get hot and bothered just by looking at a woman’s V ( trying to keep this clean for those with delicate sensibilities).
you have to trust me wheni say this, a women’s V is not the prettiest sight round, i doubt it has the capacity to arouse a medical professional, one who peers at hundred’s of them, all it is is tissue and all they are trying to do is look for anomalies. It is not a fun place to sit around nad admire nd get aroused.
and i feel ba dthat you disparige drs. there are weekends when me and my husband come home crash after hours of surgery and monday is staring us in the face and wonder where our 20’s adn 30’s went.. long study,residency,more residency,16hr days, nigth shifts and then people like you come and write stuff so way off from the norm. oh well.
All i can say is thank god we have precautionsin place, no dr sees a patient without a nurse, keeps her covered etc., it’s good protection against people who like to think their body is arousing… in the end it’s all blood,nerves and tissue nothing more nothing less.
This discussion about doctors has been carried out for way too long… Thinking that male gynecologists are perverts it is like assuming, that all surgeons are sadists and all medical examiners are necrophiliacs. By the way, male gynecologists in general are way better than women. That is not only my opinion, I am sure.
I have read somewhere that in Bahrain, gynecologists can examine a patient only by looking at the reflection in the mirror. Some kind of weird law there about it.
Dear carol , these cloths and this type of dances are not made in muslim countries culture, these women are trying to become more and more like the women that US media preach, they are under pressure , they are told repeatedly that they are oppressed, they cant enjoy their life. I am not anti USmedia or anti US , but this is reality that US media export this culture and send this message to muslim women that if you want to become a real free women should wear this type and that type.there is not fault in these young muslim women , they want to be accepted as real free women in today world.
I am surprised why western readers are angry about generalisation of western women.generalisation is bad? why you western women watched “not without my daughter” and recently “stoning soraya m” beleived it and generalised it to all Iran?generalisation is bad? why all Iranian citizens should become fingerprinted in US ariports?( please dont say security)
why you beleive anything that your media show about middle east is pure truth but what your media show about western women in not whole truth?
however what western women wear is not my business but I dont undestand why what muslim women wear is business of western women to this degree.
I have watched “Not Without My Daughter”, read the book as well. The book especially made me cringe when thinking about all the Iranians I know (not just my friend who I mentioned earlier). While I don’t discredit that maybe the author had a rough go in Iran, the way the book is written seems to put the majority of Iranians in an extremely bad light, and by extension, Islam as well…I think in the author’s case, as well as our own (I am talking everyone here), this is why dialogue is important, and sharing with one another our ideas and cultures. Only then can we get away from these absurd generalizations on both sides.
Students from Iran are the second largest international group at my university, after China. Speaking to an old Iranian colleague in a group I was volunteering with, he wanted to go to a US school but didn’t think he would stand a chance because of his nationality, in terms of acceptance and student visas…which could be thanks to a generalization about an entire country 😦 Let’s educate ourselves about others…that will bring peace above anything else.
@NN
“It’s all about “what the neighbors would say.” ”
Maybe for some. But most of religious reasons.
@Aafke-Fart
You say coolred was abused by Muslim in Arab country? She was also abused by her own father. Was he a Muslim, an Arab, living in ME?
@Maggie
“but i find yours about slutty Western women very insulting, and your prejudice against non-Muslims and Westerners, in particular, is quite clear”
Really; how did I miss that? You fail to see how these women insult the religion of Islam and the Prophet, muslim women included. How hypocrical can you be.
@Africana
There is no shame in some people. You can see that in Aafke-Fart and Save The Women whose husband gets hard ons from garbage bags and is not ashamed to talk about it (not difficult to see where he got that attitude).
“it doesn’t give me the same cause for concern as if it were out in the street. yet you also find this problematic”
That is something I was going to say too. Although I do not approve of those women in weddings “dirty dancing”, they do so in closed place; they do not make music videos and display for all the world to see. You can see how western women do that all the time; and do they think that that those women don’t do the same type of dancing or sometimes even worse? Ignorant muslim women think that by imitating the women of the west, it shows signs of being “educated”; they watch what they see on media and do the same.
@marian from iran
“I dont undestand why what muslim women wear is business of western women to this degree”
It is because they want drag muslim women into their shameless ways of dressing (in general). They don’t want to go down alone.
It is bad to generalize the people of a whole country to be sure.
By the same rule it is therefore worse to generalize and talk evil nonsense about all the people worldwide who dedicate themselves to a noble profession (doctors).
It is worse yet to generalize and talk evil gossip about the inhabitants of several continents comprising so many different countries and cultures. The ”Wicked West”
Miriam from Iran, I know other Iranian women and I know Iran has many issues, many of which you will never see in the ”Wicked West’s Media”.
How cheap of you to so quickly declare the scanty dresses the Saudi wedding party goers buy out of their own free will, and with their own or daddies money as a ”western influence”.
To dress up (or down) like that is not a ”western” influence. When you go to a Dutch wedding you wear elegant clothes, gloves and hats.
This morning I am really sick of the stupidity and nastyness spewed by all these stupid ignorant backbiters here.
And you call yourselves ”Muslim”???? Have you ever read anything from the Quran and hadith?
Have you ever thought about what Mohammed thought about Backbiters????
Have you ever thought about what the prophet thought about Hypocrites????
You (Miriam, SaraMD, Africana, Layla, etc) are not only sick and nasty, you have been sinning here big time, while probably feeling all superior to the sluts of the ”Wicked West”
Adding the sin of arrogance to your long list of sins.
And you may fool the people around you with your nasty hypocracy and pious backbiting, but if you really believe in Allah you know He looks into your black hearts and knows you for whom you really are.
By the way, I trust that sad examples like you will help searching girls like Kasia not to ”embrace” Islam. The insanity and black thoughts you have demonstrated to live in Islam should keep any prospective convert a mile away from such a nasty, misogynist religion.
You are despicable sluts yourselves, on the inside. No matter how much you ”cover” on the outside, your hearts are sick, evil, black and rotten. You have shown it abundantly here.
I prefer a naked nudist with an honest heart and kind soul a thousand times above a fully veiled vile backbiter with a rotten soul like yours.
africana…actually my father was a Christian..read the Bible everyday of his life…and from that Bible came to the conclusion that women should be seen and not heard..they should obey the men in their lives without exception…and that they were property to do with as the male pleased…sort of like Muslims.
Far as Im concerned…both men in my life used God as an excuse to abuse me…either way…one died a lonely old man…the other is living out the remainder of his sorry life without even one of his children speaking to him.
We reap what we sow. To use a biblical reference.
Western women generally DO NOT care what Muslims women wear in the west.
Muslims generally DO CARE what western women wear in Saudi Arabia.
Muslims have MAJOR control issues about women and their clothes.
I have NEVER in the west seen women dress like some Saudi’s do at weddings. That is NOT western influence.
Conservative muslim women need to STOP blaming the west- when Muslim women dress in a way they don’t approve of. Or are you all saying that Muslim Saudi women are sooooo weak, That they watch MTV and then feel COMPELLED to dress in a revealing manner??? That it is all the fault of “western” influence??? Being “influenced” is a choice. Stop blaming the west for choices YOU make.
Apparently the women here are as weak as the wolf-like men who can’t control themselves. Perhaps they should all “imitate” the west and learn some self control and personal responsiblity.
@Aafke-Fart
There you go! Practice what you preach and do not generalise. You heard what coolred said.
As a born Muslim and a westener I have to say I am so sad at the way that women are degrading each other here. Once again it doesn’t need any man to oppress us we are quite content to fight with each other without any male assistance.
But, in the interests of being fair, while stereotypes are wrong from any side, I have to say that the some of the Muslim women have made some truly ignorant comments which are their own prejudices and not fact and are not teaching of the Quran.
If you love your religion the onus is on you to show that it has made you a good person. You have a greater responsability to conduct yourself in the best manner otherwise what are you showing is the benefit of being a Muslim?
Insulting other people does not make you better than them, it actually makes you worse. When you behave in this manner your actions are actually denigrating Islam rather than showing any benefit it has. If you feel someone has said something negative you should not react by insulting them back. It’s called ‘rising above’.
Could not agree more… Respect for traditions and opinions of others is the key to understanding. We are here to learn about each other lives in civilized way, not to escalate further hatred and antagonism.
Peace out, ladies!!!
miriam from iran:
“why all Iranian citizens should become fingerprinted in US ariports?( please dont say security)”
Just to clarify this point, I’m an Australian citizen and I also have to get my fingerprints taken at US airports. The Brazillian citizens, Malaysian citizens, Indian citizens in the line around me all had to get fingerprinted too.
While I do believe you could find other arguments about the US view of Iran right now I just wanted to point out that at least in the fingerprinting department, everyone who’s not a US citizen has to go through the same thing.
INAL, I read the article you posted, thank you for sharing. It is very good and offers more books and articles to read.
But very depressing too.
I see no escape, all major religions mentioned in it have misogyny and the coarsest discrimination at their very core, right in their holy books. Maybe some groups belonging to either of these religions have risen above, but since misogyny is at the core of all of them a return to sexual discrimination and injustice is always easily done.
I really think that only the fact that some modern, more advanced societies allow people to adjust the parts of their chosen religion which are clearly wrong and unjust, makes it possible for morally advanced adherents to adhere to their chosen religion while still being just. Only in societies where religious leader’s powers have been restricted will justice and reason prevail over the flawed dogma of religion.
But as soon as religious leaders get power back they will return to the original unjust, misogynist and inhuman dogmas in their holy books.
Religious people need to be constantly vigilant about religious leaders and recognize when they have bad intentions and make sure they do not get into a position of power if they want to keep morality, justice and equality in their religion.
Of course that doesn’t really work as we see so clearly right now in the examples of the Catholic church leaders and the Islamic scholars.
Dear Carol,
Would u allow me to discuss this article in my own point of view , which is (intertwined) with Islamic view according to what I understand of Islam in this issue.
First of all , I felt again there is a lot of misconceptions in this kind of articles. One of them is judging Islam by looking to the Muslims practices, although they are different , Islam is a divine values and teachings , while Muslims` practices is result of what they understand of those teachings and what they decide to follow of them, or how they chose to practice them, which could be affected with there human nature, education, traditions, habits, modes, benefits, history, and many other aspects . Actually, there should be kind of struggle inside any person between the sense real teachings and his one preferences , specially when they are opposite . Some Muslims call that the (biggest Jehad). Then lets agree that not every thing we see in Muslim societies is Islamic.
The other misconception in the article was what it is refer to thinking that covering the women’s body in Islam (Hijab) comes from/ or brings (shame) feelings, hmmm.. I don’t think so, as a Muslim woman, I can say it is referring to what u may call (pudency) which called in Arabic (Hayaa`), it means that kind of personal morals that prevent doing any thing not suiting nobility and the respected manners, and it should appears in man or woman behaviors . Actually , Hayaa` is part of the Islamic faith according to prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) sayings and manners. Therefore, I don’t feel shame of my body if I am covering it, I just practice obedience of my religion’s teachings, which always leads us to humane ethical manner, and it is civilized manner, by the real meaning of civilization, because it is against how clothing was in the Stone Age.
And it had been known that the dignified women in many civilized nations during history , such as in Persia and Arabia, were the most covered women , and it my be that is why the women of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were required to be covered more than the regular Muslim women. In addition, any faithful person Knows what made father Adam and Mother Eve leave the heaven, and knows that when they did the sin they became unclad. All of that can draw a conclusion that civilization and dignity related with modesty and pudency (Hayaa`).
One of the most interesting things; is that bondmaid, when she was part of all human societies, which is fortunately no longer remain , she were usually the less covered than freewomen in most history eras, and she doesn’t required to wear (Hijab) at all in the Islamic teachings, while the freewoman must wear (Hijab) . which may tell that (Hijab) is not only to avoid sexual temptations , but also (Hijab) is about some things more. Part of them is (Hijab) a visual instant letter that tells how respected that woman is and how protected she must be . The most important in my opinion that it is actually tells men to deal with the woman as human regarding her intellectual features and personality, regardless her feministic features .
However, (Hijab) shouldn’t prevent women from sharing in social activeties and work. And segregation in islamic societies has relations with economy, happits and opinions more than relation with Islamic religion, Actually , her sharing should be there in many sisuations, under the Islamic fair lows, such as what it is in the original Islamic lows, which we Muslims wish of our leaders to follow and of Non-Muslims to respect, regarding the prophetic era society, where Muslim women ware sharing in almost every thing, in mixed local society ; in prayers, pilgrimage , political decisions, medical care, teaching, selling , even in war fighting if it is necessary. She wouldn’t could do that if she weren’t in her society respected, protected, and dignified. And that is our demand today for our Muslim society: to follow the Original Islamic teachings regardless of Non-Islamic traditions, those traditions take part in the human mentality in any nation, such as in Arabia where some of the ignorant Arabs accepted parrying alive there children daughters , then Islam came to tell them STOP of humiliation on woman. It is a terrible sin, and u will be punished for it at the end . And Allah will listen specially to her, he said in the Holy Qur`an : ((when the girl child that was buried alive is asked . For what sin she was slain ?! )) (At-Takwir 81 : 8-9)
I’m Dutch and I get fingerprinted ànd an iris-scan when I visit the US.
And the time before last I was also grilled by an immigration officer.
Só unfair!
Why are the Dutch singled out thus?????
😉
Dear Carol,
Would u allow me to discuss this article in my own point of view , which is (intertwined) with Islamic view according to what I understand of Islam in this issue.
First of all , I felt again there is a lot of misconceptions in this kind of articles. One of them is judging Islam by looking to the Muslims practices, although they are different , Islam is a divine values and teachings , while Muslims` practices is result of what they understand of those teachings and what they decide to follow of them, or how they chose to practice them, which could be affected with there human nature, education, traditions, habits, modes, benefits, history, and many other aspects . Actually, there should be kind of struggle inside any person between the sense real teachings and his one preferences , specially when they are opposite . Some Muslims call that the (biggest Jehad). Then lets agree that not every thing we see in Muslim societies is Islamic.
The other misconception in the article was what it is refer to thinking that covering the women’s body in Islam (Hijab) comes from/ or brings (shame) feelings, hmmm.. I don’t think so, as a Muslim woman, I can say it is referring to what u may call (pudency) which called in Arabic (Hayaa`), it means that kind of personal morals that prevent doing any thing not suiting nobility and the respected manners, and it should appears in man or woman behaviors . Actually , Hayaa` is part of the Islamic faith according to prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) sayings and manners. Therefore, I don’t feel shame of my body if I am covering it, I just practice obedience of my religion’s teachings, which always leads us to humane ethical manner, and it is civilized manner, by the real meaning of civilization, because it is against how clothing was in the Stone Age.
And it had been known that the dignified women in many civilized nations during history , such as in Persia and Arabia, were the most covered women , and it my be that is why the women of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were required to be covered more than the regular Muslim women. In addition, any faithful person Knows what made father Adam and Mother Eve leave the heaven, and knows that when they did the sin they became unclad. All of that can draw a conclusion that civilization and dignity related with modesty and pudency (Hayaa`).
One of the most interesting things; is that bondmaid, when she was part of all human societies, which is fortunately no longer remain , she were usually the less covered than freewomen in most history eras, and she doesn’t required to wear (Hijab) at all in the Islamic teachings, while the freewoman must wear (Hijab) . which may tell that (Hijab) is not only to avoid sexual temptations , but also (Hijab) is about some things more. Part of them is (Hijab) a visual instant letter that tells how respected that woman is and how protected she must be . The most important in my opinion that it is actually tells men to deal with the woman as human regarding her intellectual features and personality, regardless her feministic features .
However, (Hijab) shouldn’t prevent women from sharing in social activeties and work. And segregation in islamic societies has relations with economy, happits and opinions more than relation with Islamic religion, Actually , her sharing should be there in many sisuations, under the Islamic fair lows, such as what it is in the original Islamic lows, which we Muslims wish of our leaders to follow and of Non-Muslims to respect, regarding the prophetic era society, where Muslim women ware sharing in almost every thing, in mixed local society ; in prayers, pilgrimage , political decisions, medical care, teaching, selling , even in war fighting if it is necessary. She wouldn’t could do that if she weren’t in her society respected, protected, and dignified. And that is our demand today for our Muslim society: to follow the Original Islamic teachings regardless of Non-Islamic traditions, those traditions take part in the human mentality in any nation, such as in Arabia where some of the ignorant Arabs accepted parrying alive there children daughters , then Islam came to tell them, and the Others: STOP any kind of humiliation on woman. It is a terrible sin, and u will be punished for it at the end. And Allah will listen specially to her, he said in the Holy Qur`an : ((when the girl child that was buried alive is asked . For what sin she was slain )) ?! (At-Takwir 81 : 8-9)
I have one more note about ”What Women Wear”
I think that in a man’s world, women are wearing what men want them to wear. Weather it be by blunt force or by more subtile social prodding, if a society is wholly geared towards What Men Want then women will have to conform. And let’s be honest, except one or two forgotten pockets the whole planet is ruled by men and geared towards their desires.
And what apparently most men want all over the planet is sexual access and/or total control over women. Both these preferences can be observed in women’s outfits.
So you see women wearing revealing clothes because that gives them an advantage in certain circumstances, and you see on the other scale women completely covered up because that gives them an advantage.
You see it in the ”power suits” worn by modern business women, needed to be looked at as competent business women. You see some girls wearing skimpy clothes because they are told by the (male-run) media that’s what they should wear to be considered desirable, you see some girls wearing hijab because they are told it makes them more desirable, etc…
So really I don’t think women are fully to ”blame” for dress choices. Our choice of dress, wherever we live on the planet, is never wholly our own choice. We are influenced by the society we live in, by the rejection or approbation of our social circle, by what the media shows us, by what religion and/or religious leaders tell us some God wants, by what our job requires, by the social gathering we attend, and all these things together will have significant effect on what a person will wear.
Really, to some extent we all wear a uniform.
The only thing which seems to present itself is the more restricted a society, the more uniform the dress code.
For example the ”blue mao suit”.
It is really a very, very small percentage who really dares and/or has the opportunity, to wear what they themselves like and if it doesn’t conform to what is ”the norm” in their social surroundings they will get serious flak from the people they meet.
And you will notice that people who choose to defy the accepted dress codes of their social group rarely stand alone: they band together in new, smaller groups of fellow deviants.
For example the three Goths in a classroom.
I do not think it’s healthy to use overwhelming force, and draconian punishments to make people conform to a certain dress code, but there are always some forces at work which steer us to the clothes we choose, and the image we want to project.
I really resent forcing people into constricting dress codes. I also reject dress codes which annihilate human personality. But I know that in certain environments on the planet there just isn’t a real choice.
I also reject the use of extortion and scare people with lies about hell and damnation to blackmail them into wearing a preferred dress code. That is just fundamentally wrong. And of course there can be no question of ”free choice” when the subject believes it.
Be that as it may, considering all these facts, nobody can lay full blame at anybodies door about what what they choose to wear.
Or not to wear.
So I hope we can stop now with backbiting and calling the populations of whole continents invectives based on malicious fabricated gossip.
We should stop blaming women with a different dress preference altogether and instead put the blame where it belongs, on men!
@Aafke- ‘And of course SaraMD and Layla.
But I don’t think those are real people. I think somebody is trying to get a rise out of us. Nobody is that ignorant for real’
That’s what I hope as well! But don’t forget africana as well! Kool-aid stained nut jobs not even worthy of response!
@Aafke: *Cosign* on your last statement.
I have been out of the loop for a while and upon visiting I’m glad to see the activity hasn’t at all died down. After reading everyone’s comments I don’t feel there’s really anything I can add to the debate that would be constructive (other than, wow @ the batshit crazy from the self-righteous caucus of hate) as to women modes of dress, so I just thought I would say Hi!
Dear Aafk-art it is not along time that I comment in this blog and my comments dont exceed 15, I dont know how you undrestanded that I am slut and have black heart. I never said women in US media=american women, all I wanted to say is that young Iranian women watch “sex and city” watch “27 dress” and they want wear that cloths in reality(this dont mean they are weak).does wearing a cloth from colection of britny spears a big sin in your eye?if you study about Iran you will find that how is traditional cloth ,no longer a young woman wear them , they want become modern like the women they see in TV, I dont know” 27 dress” movie is displaying real US , I have never been there , only thing I know is that young women in Iran love those cloth and if they have money they buy them without hesitancy.
Dear Mel thank you for your comment , most of american people dont know how much suffering their goverment has imposed on Iranian people because of generalization of Iran, few americans who come Iran, are very surprised, they see Iran as a different country that they see in media.your friend is right , for a young Iranian woman like me climbing Everest Mountain is far easier than going to US for study.
in the end as a person that her country is suffering from generalization , I apologise from all western women who were generalized, althought I never genaralized them.
Oh btw – @Aafke and Maggie and whoever else: For a good chunk of my life, I’ve grown up in schools where as a white girl, I was almost in the minority, and for that I’m thankful as it gave me a greater curiosity than normal about learning other cultures. My Muslim friends were impressed when I knew about some of their traditions, even though I’m not Muslim 🙂 This understanding also helps out immensely at my job, where I help out people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds. I’m happy I have such a wide variety of friends 🙂
While I need to weed through some chaff in the comments, such as the disparaging remarks of Eastern and Western women, there is some good dialogue.
I think it is valuable where views are exchanged (in a positive and courteous manner) on the perceptions of the dress of Eastern and Western women. I have come away with a view that the media is given a large impact on forming perceptions.
In my personal opinion I believe that in general, Western women are more casual and laid back in appearance. Several western commentors have stated that their favorite dress is jeans and t-shirt. As I write this comment, I am in sweat pants and t-shirt. Yet in my own experiences in Saudi as a Saudi wife, I observed that the Saudi women in my own circle always dressed up in clothes they believed to flatter their figure. However many of these same women I am describing believed that form fitting clothes and low cut tops were the types of clothes to be viewed as flattering. They further were highly conscious of labels (designer) and it seemed to me that at many times were trying to “outdress” one another. I’d be with these same women and would be viewed as drastically under dressed.
Saudi women are very conscious of their body.
Mariam from Iran, I’m sorry, You are right, you said nothing here which warrants including you in the list of blackhearted backbiting bitches. I am sorry. Thank you for pointing this out without rancour. Maybe Carol will remove your name from it for me.
I don’t know what the Britney Spears clothes are, or 27 dress, but considering these popstar’s deplorable bad taste I can imagine something.
I don’t know about Iran, but the traditional clothes from my country are totally unsuitable for modern life. And I like modern life. I like to not be restricted in my movements, to sport, to cycle, to ride my horse, to climb steps when cleaning my house, to do carpentry, to do my work, etc.
Besides, I would have to cut off my hair.
I really agree that some modern fashions are really bad, they are ugly, not elegant and way too little material. Everybody should be allowed to make their own mistakes in bad dress sense though.
I think it’s a real pity that elegance is out of fashion though…
About movies, movie makers, and tv producers, make those movies and serials which sell well. And people abroad buy them too. If that means making caricatures they will do it. If it means putting some totally unlogic sex-scene into it they do it.
There are a lot more interesting movies made though, all over the world. They just don’t get the attention of the mainstream public.
Carol…
“Saudi women are very conscious of their body.”
You have made an interesting point. For Saudis It is OK even preferable to wear the figure hugging, cleavage showing clothes that some commentators are talking about that is wicked in the West just so long as no male sees them.(beside husband). Hmmmm. That being the case these same women are showing off for each other. Doesn’t that kind of go against being humble and not drawing attention to oneself with false pride?
Is it that Western women dress for themselves and their comfort and Saudis dress to impress each other?
I think then, that someone like the Amish who dress in a humble manner at all times even when it is only women present are actually dressing and living their faith on a more honest level trying to follow the words of God on a 24/7 basis.
Interesting conundrum I think.
PS…about Saudi women being so conscious of their bodies… could it be that there is such extreme focus on hiding what God gave you that it has made Saudi women think about their bodies and how they represent them in the allowable realm(among women) more extreme?
Good point, Oby. It’s a bit strange though. Not all of the women I associated with while in KSA dressed in a provocative and sexy fashion but many of them did. One father I know who buys ALL the clothes for his wife and daughters (yes they don’t buy their own clothes) has his daughters dressed in the sexiest of stuff and always very low cut tops for his wife. I think it points out that women are often thought of sex objects and tend to think of themselves that way. I do wonder, if that’s the case, why more women don’t try and keep their weight down.
@oby,
yes,,indeed that’s why i said i’m not 100 percent happy about women going to extremes in parties. overdressing is sure to attract a few evil eyes and jealousy as well as the risk that one of the women might describe another to her husband.
part of hijab is to tame a womans’ inclination for being ostentatious. it should really be kept for the husband.
nevertheless, the damage done by these women at parties is limited as, like i said before, it is done behind closed doors.
*to tame a womans’ inclination for being ostentatious*
*it should really be kept for the husband.*
🙄
Seriously, where do you get this stuff?
I couldn’t make it up if I tried!
Please give me a book reference
Obviously some people have never seen how gorgiously ostentatious some hijabs can be….
😈
http://img224.imageshack.us/i/saharsalin4.jpg/
aafke, i don’t even thiink they would fulfil the rquirement of hijab.when i speak of hijab, i mean as per the quran and hadith not as per the cairo street scene.
much too bright, way too much eye makeup on the models, way too much of the face and neck exposed.
Aafke…
Your photos of Hijabis reminded me about a woman I saw once when shopping. I could not help staring at her and thank goodness she didn’t notice. I believe she was Somali. She was wearing a head covering that I thought was soooo beautiful. It wasn’t even a traditional hijab draped with the neck covered loosely. The way she had done it was so skillful and intricate and truly beautiful I almost wished I could have worn something like that. It was sort of a combination of hijab and African headdress(you know how the woman wear really elaborately folded head coverings). The cloth itself was rather plain but the skill with which she had wrapped it was really eye catching. At least to me! LOL! She was covered and yet to my non Muslim eyes, very very stylish.
Oby, I imagine what you mean. Last week when shopping at the market I saw this elegant black lady with a long black gown with warm orange decoration at the hem, and a large warm orange hijab on top. It looked beautiful and elegant.
Why cannot some people allow the different variations possible? why does it always have to be bikini versus burqa?
And why should it be preferable to look ugly and dowdy? Nobody is happy to look dull and ugly.
Why are women generalised in this false and erronious way:
*to tame a womans’ inclination for being ostentatious*
Who the hell makes up this nonsense?
It’s sounds soooo Christian btw.
Anything to break a woman’s spirit. Let’s tell lies about them and make them look like crap, that’l teach them to think well of themselves!
And Wendy, how bizarre. And what would that do to the mental development of these girls? Oh but ”girls” are not capable of mental development, they are too obsessed with their incination for being ostentatious…
So women are sex-objects with an inclination for being ostentatious which has to be suppressed with hijab because it is all for the husband for whom they have to strut around in heavy make-up and exploding breasts in revealing sexy outfits…
It’s enough to make anybody schizophrenic!
On the Canadian series “Little Mosque on the Prairie” the hijab wearers have such lovely modest clothes and ways of covering their head. It’s a wonderful TV series about Islam and Christians in a small prairie town.
I am certainly not saying all but I can say in my own experiences and observations, many young Saudi girls were overdressed – and overdressed in the sense of wearing clothes that I felt were too mature for their age.
Because of the emphasis placed on bodies, cover and separation I do believe it makes males and females more aware of each other, those around them whether same sex or not and of their own bodies too.
@american bedu,
as gai eaton once quipped all muslims live in the west these days as their minds have been colonised. hence the clamour for anything, no matter how distateful with valentino, moschino or versace slapped on it.
if these same designers did a modest range maybe they would eschew the tight stuff for something more tasteful.
i know plenty of african muslim women who wouldn’t think to wear any of the OTT fashions on offer in saudi. these women observe hijab and gender segregation but you wouldn’y find them in anything more than a tasteful, long dress at home.
@africana – I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a few ladies sporting Versace hijabs in the malls around here (Canada), I’ve seen Calvin Klein ones too…not too sure I’m buying the idea that Saudi ladies are dressing in this kind of clothing at weddings just because of the label, so all they need to do is ask the designer to put out a modest range. I doubt that’d do anything at all.
I dont know how is the situation in arabian countries , but in Iran all of this cloths are imported if you want to wear a modest cloth you should pay extra money near double to a dressmaker(khayyat)to wear somthing you like not something in the shops.
im my idea and many other muslim women hijab and fashion are not contrary with each others. I like these trends in this blog : http://www.hijabshigh.com/
we should keep in mind that hijab has different description in different cultures , for example althought majority are jafary shiia in iran their interpretation is different according to their race and culture.no one have right to say who is right or wrong.just my idea.
So now I’ll touch on the particular issue of the veil and headscarf. I am saying outright I am NOT here to debate or argue with those who tenaciously cling to the traditional opinion that a headscarf is obligatory. I respect your opinion, I’m not out to change it, and at this point, you won’t change mine. I’m just putting it out there.
There are four basic reasons why I have personally changed my position on this:
The first is admittedly highly personal and subjective, but no less relevant to my decision. That is that the scarf has nothing to do with how I have been treated by men. I did not experience disrespect when I was not wearing it in the West; I have experienced disrespect DESPITE wearing it in the East. I respect the fact that many women may have different experiences, but I know there are also many like me, and this personal paradox is what caused me to question the validity of the obligatory scarf.
As I researched I made two discoveries – historical realities both intriguing and a bit disturbing.
One is that the headscarf was a cultural practice pre-Islam. It’s obvious that it was a practical item of attire in a relentlessly hot and dusty climate. There were also other social and religious motives that don’t really seem to uphold the dignity and protection of women which the Qur’an enjoins.
Secondly, veiling seemed to have been instituted in Islam as a direct result of pressure by the powerful men surrounding the Prophet to essentially maintain this status quo of the region.
And my final reason, and perhaps the most relevant, is the simple fact that what is required to be covered, according the the Qur’an, is the bosom.
Samar talked about the regional custom of upper-class women veiling and how that could have influenced the Islamic injunction. Definitely. But that observation drives home a very important point. It was ONLY for women of status. Lower class working women and slaves did not wear it, and in some cases were not socially allowed to wear it. As Aaflke mentioned earlier, the veil was just not practical for the manual labor these women performed. So it doesn’t seem that the practice really had anything to do with honor and dignity except where it related to rich women to denote superior status in society. It in essence said, “my husband or father can afford to keep me.” Don’t see such an arrogant attitude in keeping with Islam at all!!
Aside from this, we have the religious reasons for the headcovers of Jewish and Christian women. They emphasize anything but dignity and protection.
Jewish rabbis listed 9 curses on women as a result of the original sin of Eve including menstruation, the burden of pregnancy, the pain of childbirth, the burden of bringing up the children, HER HEAD IS COVERED AS ONE IN MOURNING, and that she is not to be believed as a witness.
These are almost exact parallels to the writings of Ghazali. And notice no emphasis on the scarf as a protection for women OR as even a protection for men (their lusts and “adultery of the gaze”) – it’s a PUNISHMENT! Since when are we dealing with the concept of original sin in Islam??!!
(Recommended modesty vs. an obligatory headcover or veil nullifies all this BS!)
St. Tertullian called women “THE DEVIL’S GATEWAY” and “the deserter of divine law” and said that we destroyed God’s image, man. (Whoa! Talk about patriarchal arrogance!) Sound familiar to some spurious hadeeth? The evil snare of the temptress woman is used time and again by Muslim scholars to advocate the scarf and veil. Show me WHERE in Qur’an women are referred to in terms even so remotely negative!
A quote by St. Paul also clarifies the reasoning for the veiling of Christian women. “And every woman who prays and prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head . . . a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, a woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.” So it’s very clear that the Christian view is that the headcover is not for the woman’s protection, but as a sign of her subjection to man!
Muslims are constantly talking about the scarf or veil as protection for dignity of women and some advocate that is in place to protect men from their desires BUT the prevailing traditions of the region indicate that it had NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER ONE – it was generally a sign of social status, disgrace and subjection to men.
That these negative views prevalent in the cultural milieu of the entire region could have easily skewed interpretations of Qur’an and subsequent development of shari’a and Islamic culture cannot be ignored. The writings of the scholars prove that their view of hijab is based on these pre-Islamic concepts, which they had a vested interest in maintaining, and not on the dignity enjoined for women in Qur’an.
Again (I keep harping on this, because it’s so important) the recommendation of modesty for women would cancel this out, but the obligation fosters it. I think Allah “most gracious, most merciful” wants to elevate women, not shame them.
Fatima Mernissi, a Moroccan sociologist who has written extensively on this subject, points out that the vision of the Prophet (pbuh) was for a society of gender equality where women had value and more freedom to control their own lives and that indeed, his own wives had a great deal of freedom and authority. However this was a revolutionary idea of the time and the men surrounding him did not necessarily agree. He acquiesced to pressure and directed veiling and seclusion for his wives.
This seems to be supported by hadeeth which demonstrates that the Prophet was pushed to do this to maintain the status quo:
“It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to go out at night to al-Manaasi’ (well-known places in the direction of al-Baqee’) to relieve themselves and ‘Umar used to say to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “Let your wives be veiled.” But the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do that. Then one night Sawdah bint Zam’ah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), went out at ‘Isha’ time and she was a tall woman. ‘Umar called out to her: “We have recognized you, O Sawdah!” hoping that hijab would be revealed, then Allaah revealed the verse of hijab.”
Here again, recommended hijab benefits (and would have accomplished the necessary task of pacifying the patriarchal elite), but obligatory would have severely compromised the Prophet’s egalitarian vision. That’s pretty much proof to me that it was NOT meant to be obligatory.
It was only well after the Prophet’s death that veiling and seclusion became commonplace among Muslim women, and it still seems to have been an indication of social status, following the example of the Prophet’s wives. With the Muslim conquests of areas where these practices were already entrenched in society, the practice continued to spread to the general population and helped to shape the normative interpretations of Qur’anic gender laws by medieval scholars. These scholars interpreted the Qur’anic rules on women’s dress and space in increasingly absolute and categorical fashion, reflecting the real practices and cultural assumptions of their place and age, and thus we, as Muslims, have deviated far from the original intention of these directives.
In the Quran, the use of the word khimar varies on the person translating but does not specifically mean headcovering. It can mean something that covers anything. There is no information on HOW exactly to wear the khimar, even if it is taken as a headcover. The specific command was to cover the breasts, not the hair. A khimar was a common item of women’s attire at the time which they could readily use to cover themselves more fully. Therefore, the headcover itself may not apply to women in other cultures or historical time periods who would not have the custom of wearing something on their heads. If God had wanted a headcovering to be part of religion, it would have been addressed in a way that made it obvious that ALL women for ALL times should take a piece of cloth and place it on their heads in a particular manner to cover/conceal the hair along with the breasts.
Samar also talked about the Islamic concept of hayaa. The question becomes what is necessary to achieve hayaa? Must every bit of skin be covered? Must the hair be covered or the face shrouded? Women of some African and Amazon tribes run around bare chested. Are they regarded as immodest, or worse, “slutty” in their societies? If they were told to put on a shirt, they would be perplexed as to why. Imagine a headscarf or a burka! In their context, these things have no relevance.
Why must a certain standard of 7th century Arabian dress be relevant for all places and all times in order to achieve hayaa? I once was reading an article debating the requirement of Muslim men to have beards and one comment basically said, get over it, in the ideal Islamic world ALL men would have long beards and ALL women would be in burkas. I pictured that stark, and to me depressing, scene in my mind and just wondered why God would make us so beautifully and vibrantly diverse and then seek to squeeze us all into a box. Contrast that scene to the ones that Mel and Aaflke described about the beautiful variations of people.
I am for modesty, but I am also for choice. I think Qur’an is too – “no compulsion in religion.” Some women may choose to simply wear clothes that are deemed modest in their particular context. Just because they are not covering their hair does not mean they aren’t sending a message of discretion. Some may choose to cover their hair. Some may choose the abaya or veil. In my view, they are all finding a personal path that helps them to achieve hayaa, a concept which goes far beyond attire to include general attitude and conduct. The important thing is CHOICE. Choice is what makes it real and relevant. It is the lack of choice which promotes hypocrisy and oppression – both of which are the antithesis of Islam.
Long post. 🙂 Nuf said!!
I know that some women in the Gulf and ME in general wear terrible clothes. It is not proper to expose themselves in front of females too.
It is funny that there are so many French imported hijabs here while it is banned in France. Anything for money ….
Aafke-Fart
The link about the hijabs: those are not hijabs nor khimars. They are just fashionable turbans
Sarah MD….your insistence on corrupting Aafke’s name into a derogatory moniker certainly lowers your credibiltiy to that of a child pointing fingers and name calling.
tsk tsk…we are all grown up here I believe. You can dsagree with someone without resorting to such childish behavior
oh and before you jump on your high horse (once you push Aafke off)…I said that to her before as well.
Maggie…i agree with pretty much eveything you wrote in your post. Much of what caused me to reject the concept of hijab as God mandated…but to put it quite simply…its not in the Quran…so not even up for consideration as far as Im concerend.
Good cooment.
Coolred, I find it strange that you did not say anything to Aafke when she called me with names. That was not childish for you? That was ok because you are same like her or happen to agree with her? So isn’t that childish? It is not my stlye to do this but she is the one who provoked me. Have you nothing to say to her but only defend her name-calling? Double standard, I’d say.
“I said that to her before as wel”
Where? when? Privately on the phone? by email?
@Maggie
That is your interpretation and does not mean it is the right one. And Quran does mention covering the head as another reader said in detail in another thread. But I do agree that head cover is not meant for shaming or reduce the status of women.
Sarah…I certainly am not defending Aafke and her often abhorrrent choice of language used to get her point across…as i mentioned. I wont go find that particular post for you…it should be enough for me to say I did so.
btw Im not the same like her.
Not Even Close
btw…I would challenge anyone on any blog on this big wide interent to find one instance in which I called someone a derogatory name etc…Im quite effective in getting my point across (whether the person in mind agrees with it or not) without resorting to such underhanded and useless endeavors.
but everyone has their own style..to each her own
Sarah MD…one more thing..please show exactly where the God mentions in the Quran that the head should be covered. Please show us where the word “ras” is used..or even the word “shaar” for hair.
Please show us why your interpretation…or anyone elses is far superior to Maggies by assuming words are there that arent.
The word “janubiya” (spelling?) IS there…god was
articulate enough to include that word..since that was the part of the body he felt was worth mentioning and pointing out…but didnt feel the need to include head and hair. Seems like a simple enough inclusion so that there would be NO room for assumptions, insertions in brackets…..or a century of debate.
Yes?
Coolred,
Please, I did not say my interpreatations are far superior than anyone else’s. I just said that was her interpreatation and it does not have to be right one. Pls do not put words in my comments that are not there to carry false impression.
I will copy here what I said last time on this same topic.
“On the topic of “khimr” in this tread, I have to say that the meaning is mostly misunderstood by non-arabic speakers.
I understand how people can interpret “khimr” to mean as only a “cover”. But one must understand the Arabic used at that time and then understand its meaning in its true sense.
“Khimr” is usually referred to as head cover. There is another word in that same ayyah (Surah 24,31) which is “Juyubihinna” which means neck area. The ladies at that time used to already cover the head with “khimr” so when ayyah simply tells them to draw the cloth (head cover) to the front to cover the chest area.
Lets say for example, if it was told to wrap or exend your HAT to cover your ears, it will be naturally understood that the hat, which is a head covering(because that is what the word “hat” means to an English speaker), and you would understand automatically that the hat is to REMAIN on the head while it is pulled over or extended or wrapped to cover the ears. It would NOT be taken to mean to REMOVE the hat from the head and cover the ears with it.
In the same way the Arabs, when they were told “extend/wrap/pull the khimr to cover the chest, they knew automatically that the khimr was a head covering because that is what the word “khimr” means in Arabic, and they understood automatically that the khimr was to REMAIN on the head while being extended to cover the chest area.
We can understand “khimr” to mean head cover from various other places in hadeeths where it is referred to as head cover.
If the ayyay had meant only the chest, then it would be said “drop” the “khimr” to the shoulder and cover the chest.
I want to add here that there are many other religions that also ask the women to cover her head for modesty, including christianity.”
Maggie, Great post.
One of the best on hijab I have ever read.
@sarahMD
Assuming you are correct about “khimmer” and I do not think you are- and your excuse that non-Arabic speakers are “confused” by it is false- BTW.
But for the sake of this arguement. Many MANY women in Arabia and Egypt and other places have worn a Khimmer and you can still see most of their hair. So wear did the innovation of “concealing” hair come from?? Or are you seriously proposing that women were already modestly concealing their hair- while exposing their breasts?????
And if the Quran had said “button up your shirt to cover your cleavage”- I would NOT assume I am required to wear a shirt with buttons- but rather that I am expected to cover my cleavage.
@Maggie
Excellent post on hijab. And I commend you for having the energy to write it. After years on various blogs etc. I’ve reached the point where I generally can’t be bothered anymore. So thank you.
Oh- and wearing some sort of a headcover was typical in most societies. It had nothing to do with modesty- or any other moral issue. It was practical and had everything to do with protection from the elements, whether hot or cold. And that continues until today.
@Sandy
I did not use the word “confused”. I said “misunderstood”.
” Many MANY women in Arabia and Egypt and other places have worn a Khimmer and you can still see most of their hair. ”
So does it make it right or take the meaning away from “khimr”? Obviously “cover” the head which includes the hair and the neck area (as mentioned).
So head covering is supposed to protect from the elements? Then why only women? In the Bible women are told to cover their heads while worshipping. It is to protect them from the elements? In the church? Hindu women cover in temples, sikh women cover all the time. Nuns too cover all the time.
I can understand that you go to watch a polo match and wear a hat to protect yourself from the elements.
In KSA I often saw something that struck me as very funny… There were some Arab ladies (some Lebanese and some others) who, in public areas of the western compounds, would wear extremely tight, painted-on jeans, an equally revealing top and hijab! I would always think, “Come on! Do you honestly think any man in the vicinity is looking at your HAIR at this point?????” ROFL!
On a more disturbing point, when considering choices of clothing and perhaps their purchase by men. I once saw a Saudi family at the airport where the two little girls (perhaps 7 and 9 years old) were dressed in fishnet stockings and mini-skirts. Now when I was a student a long time ago in a Western country, we always use to joke about that exact attire as the dress of prostitutes, so it rather turned my stomach to see it on little girls. At the time I rather charitably thought that perhaps their mothers didn’t understand the context of those clothes, but the discussions about the fathers buying the clothes and the viewing of little girls as sexual objects does rather suggest an alternative, rather horrifying, explanation…
claire,
i don’t see the point of your above remark. yes, i accept that there are stupid people who choose inappropriate clothing and make inappropriate choices. that’s because they are ignorant not because of gender segregation or hijab and they’d still be making those stupid choices wherever they lived.
the existence of hijab and gender segregation in and of itself is not going to alter the ways of ignorant people who are not concious of God. But then again, that is not the point of hijab and the rulings on modesty.
anyway, its widely accepte that to follow the ways of an immoral people, in terms of dress, is a reprehensible act for an adult. and what is forbidden for an adult is also forbidden for a child.
jjust wanted to provide this for you to read.
Is hijab obligatory ..
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/47569
Sarah MD, I can’t remember the last time I saw a nun that was fully covered like you say they ALWAYS do. There are plenty of nuns that wear knee length dresses and no head cover at all.
Oh, and it is pretty clear that you did not even bother to read Maggie’s comment. If you say that you DID read it then I’d have to say go over it again because you missed a lot.
I just want to say, that in India, particularly in Kolkata, muslim women wear slavar kameez and dupata, which covers their hair only when when it is salaat time. That does not make them less believers, or less modest… They do not have premarital relationships with men, their marriages arranged too, for the most part, nor they engage in activities which are prhobited by Quaran. Only some of those, who went for hajj come back and start covering urgently. So, how covering head to toe enforce the modesty and chastity? Maybe it is in the way you feel in your heart and if you truly believe in what you represent, then there is no need for you to visually assure anyoneof that.
@Claire
You mentioned Lebanese women wearing skin painted clothes and hijab. Yes those women are NOT in hijab. THAT thing on the head is just for show and nothing else.
@Lada,
Yes there are people in India/Pakistan who will cover the head when they hear the call to prayer. That is what they think should be done. Covering the head does not make one automaically a good muslim. There are “bad” women who cover and there are good women who do not cover, but the intention of those who cover (as part of obedience to God) is what makes them good/bad. God looks at the deeds.
There, you said it: “God looks at the deeds”. There is nothing else can be said on this subject, unless there will be new revelation from Almighty One…
@Maggie,
One of the best comments I have EVER read about hijjab. You can write comments as long as you like anytime!
@ Inal, you put up a very good study on religion. it is these lies about women. It’s the psycopathological craving to make animals and slaves out of women. This for me is proof enough that there is nothing of divinity in religion. Every one of the religions in the study is a conspiracy by men against women.
@ Maggie, I am very impressed by your comment about hijab. you are very well read. I can only hope people who comment here will take the trouble of reading it.
It is clear from their comments many have not.
@ africana, I have read you link too. I think it is an evil site, it adds many explanations which are not in the original texts. You can read. You should read for yourself and not read what a patholigically women hating man has to say about issues.
@ Sarahmd, Aafke made witty changes of your name because you had no respect for another woman’s distress. While she has strong language she is often funny as well. Your farts are not funny. they are not grown up.
you really should read inal’s link and maggies post. you could learn a lot. It is because you misunderstand completely why men want women to cover themselves.
Some comments here are amusing and some are very instructive.
But I see so many strawman fallacies. A number of persons try to use social proof as well. Also many formal fallacies. All kind really. There is so much of false reasoning and hasty generalisations in these discussions one could use them as example for how not to have a fair discussion.
I could take every second post and use it to illustrate all kinds of fallacies to exist to be misused in discussion.
Sarah MD
“On the topic of “khimr” in this tread, I have to say that the meaning is mostly misunderstood by non-arabic speakers..”
The word khimar can be misunderstood by Arabs as well…or maybe just forced to mean what they want it to mean. Regardless of whether or not women wore the khimar on the head as a matter of daily life..or even for modest conservative purposes…at that time it was NOT for any particular religious purpose. Just something they did. When God comes along and says…use that khimar thats allready in use ..something you already have anyhow…and cover your exposed breasts with it…how does that automatically turn into an order of …cover the hair and never let a man see it?
Simple enough question…whats your answer?
Islam QA?? I NEVER go there. Innovators all!
No- only a very few would assume headcover means hide hair. Most haircovers naturally do not. Especially on people whose boobs are out.
They were a largly outside society- and the men DID wear headcovers too.
as an alternative to islam q and a, how about this one concerning the ruling on hijab.
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=5849&CATE=3600
“3. To conceal their adornment and natural beauty, which scholars have interpreted to mean the whole body except for the face, hands, and (for Hanafis) the feet.”
The phrase…”which scholars have interpreted to mean” is the very basis for what constitutes Islam for women today and yest and in the past. Scholars interpret Gods word and according to man…God wants women covered from head to toe to stop who? Men… from wanting them soooooo bad. Makes you wonder why God created women so damn sexy men cant control themselves…and men so unsexy that woman can. hmmmmm?
just as an FYI, if anyone cares to view my flicker photos which are on lower right hand side of the blog, there are a few photos for when I was interviewing for Saudi TV. I point it out as it illustrates how I was expected to cover as a representative for Saudi TV. I chose to call it as “loose hijjab.” However any guests to Saudi TV were not required to cover.
“Scholars interpret Gods word and according to man”
That being the case how does one even know that the interpretation is correct and that things have not been changed to benefit some man? the fact that a human being is interpreting God’s word seems to leave it open to at LEAST the possibility of being wrong.
I am linking a very interesting video I saw today and I would like your opinions. Thanks
http://shadjar.wordpress.com/2010/06/16/the-other-gender/
Its interesting- ISLAM QA once posted a question on how to cheat a woman of her inheritance…That was about 6 years ago; and I have blacklisted that site until hell freezes over…
@inal,
on the whole, i like islam q and a. however i did find a dubious answer on the subject of female circumcison. the scholar seemd to be advocating the removal of the clitoris or part of it to control sexual desire…which i thought very strange because all of the classical scholars said that it’ should involve only the removal of the prepuce of clitoris in order to enhance the sexual experience.
Which is why, I rather die a horrible death than visit any of those so called “Islamic” sites… and especially after hearing Hamza Yusuf warn us bout sites that do not show proof of reference that you can go and check. Another Egyptian Sheikh while he was here in NY, had classes for women- and he was an extremely vocal advocate for women- He headed the NY Islamic Center until 2001- and let me just say that what we told him became hail and brimstone for the men on the following Khutbah- I have never seen so many men shrink in size… He would call them shameful, and irresponsible- but the powers that be wanted to tighten things up and he was sent back to Eygpt and the new Sheikh is a pitiful excuse- but the Masjid is now almost 80% men… after being balanced…
Like I said hell will freeze over….
i’ve always ejoyed hamza yusuf’s presentations. even though he’s seen as being on the moderate (for want of a better word) end of the spectrum and demonstrates an awareness of the historical reality at the time of the prophet (salla Allahu Alehi was salam) he still holds hijab to be an obligation.
i agree,with increasing numbers of female coverts it is important that injustices against women are tackled in the masjids.
@Africana,
I don’t follow scholars, they are clergy- only Allah and Islam, they have shown time and again that they are not qualified to “interpret” though occasionally one has some merits. Lucky for me, Islam has no clergy right???
Africana, I can’t believe what I am reading here. I am throwing up!
Brainwashed isn’t even the word for it, a full scale Lobotomy is the only explanation for any woman to actually speak ”positively” about circumcision : Female Genital Mutilation is the word. It is bloody MUTILATION.
No matter what any friggin’ bastard pig of a scholar has to say about it.
Female Genital Mutilation has one goal and one goal only: The total destruction of sexual pleasure for women.
The real advantage is that not only can the husband rape her whenever he wants even if it feels bad for her, she will not be tempted to have sex with another man.
That’s the only reason: Women Will Not Be Wanting Sex.
How friggin’ disgustingly misogynist is that!
It is the ultimate expression of men’s hatred towards women.
The essence of evil.
It’s actually against islam btw. Modifying the human body is not allowed.
These scholars are evil.
Any human, inluding women, who does not express abhorrence at this evil practise is evil.
doesn’t look at the destruction of God’s creation is pure evil.
Female mutilation is more common then you think. Look up the statistics, it’s disgusting.
And btw, together with the inflammations caused by FMG they also cause 20 to 25% reduction in fertillity.
Women are not even allowed to pluck their eyebrows, and genital mutilation is suddenly ok???
Oh, but Genital Mutilation is for a higher purpose: to make sex a horrible experience for women! That is of course so much more superior that in the case of Female Genital Mutilation a big Bidah change is halal.
And in case some poor Mentally Deficient reader thinks my language is too ”harsh” again: There is no other possibillity to express my feelings about the evil that men do. I do not feel ”moderate” about injustice, misogyny and the destruction of human beings.
A woman, scholar or whoever else who advocates such horrendous crimes against humanity is a bastard pig. The only words in the English language which could express my feelings and thoughts better would have to be ”even stronger” ones.
aafke,
i can understand your being upset with the type that removes the clitoris,labia majora and minora. that’s totally against islam and wasn’t what i was referring to at all.
there are at least four different types of cutting which come under the heading of female circumcision. what goes on in africa is completely against islam however in malaysia and indonesia there is a variety of it which is in accordace with islam and is the EXACT equivalent of male circumcision. it has no effect on sex and may even enhance it as the clitoris is more exposed.itis also the exact equivalent of an operation performed by plastic surgeons in the west known colloquially as a hoodectomy which is perfromed to enhance the sexual experience.
furthermore, smegma gathers under the female foreskin just as it does under the male foreskin and as some can be quite tight, it makes it difficult to remove all of these deposits.
additionally, there are hadiths which show that castrttion is forbidden in Islam. although, i know that fgm only removes the means to satisfaction and not the desire itself (for which an oophorectomy would be required and would render the woman sterile) nevertheless people who do it do have that goal in mind and so as well as being multilation they also have an intention i mind contrary to islam.
this is an account of the circumcision of the daughter of a malaysian muslim woman.
you will see that it is clearly very different to that which goes on in africa.
http://mamababahworld.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/sophie%e2%80%99s-circumcision-part-1-sophie-and-aira-floral-bath-ceremony/
http://mamababahworld.wordpress.com/2009/07/06/651/
more information pertaining to female circumcision as practised in islam.
http://www.hoodectomyinformation.com/Islam.html
@Africana,
Are you advocating female circumcision as a part of faith? If so, I must ask if you are circumcised yourself or if you would circumcise your daughter.
I feel that some of the women here and many others, do not like to cover themselves or even just wear a khimr. So they read many things about while leaning towards not wanting to cover. So whenever they see articles or post that goes according to what they want, they automatically love those aritcles so much and say its the best piece ever. Best in what sense? Best in the sense that removes their guilt and it reduces their stress and makes them more comfortable to know that there are others like them. They are not alone.
These women also go to any lengths to misinterpret the Quran and analyse it with biased opinons and even blame others of being brainwashed. Whatever or however you explain, they will come up with some answer. If they do not want to wear it, just don’t wear it but do not bring up all excuses and make the rule that we are not supposed to wear it.
No one has yet explained why the women in the west allow themselves to be exploited in the advertisments. Why do they want to make themselves so cheap. They talk about liberalization of women but it is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of herself, and removal of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women, but what we can see is it has actually degraded them to the status of mere tools in the hands of men and sex marketers. All this is hidden behind the colorful screen of art, culture, liberty, advancement, modern …etc. And the women has been brainwashed by the men into thinking that this is what makes them so desiable and wanted so much so that they think that covering up is bad, it degrading and shameful.
There is no hope for women around the world when in this day and age some women can accept FGM in any form. Very sad.
@wendy,
did you read the information i provided? you will be surprised.
very well said, sarah md
@ Africana
For someone who seems to be so religious how can you even begin to think that your beloved Allah would make the human body less than perfect or less than it should be. By cutting anything you are altering what Allah has created and as far as I can tell that is definitely Haram. Our bodies have these ‘parts’, pieces, bits for a reason and that reason is to protect.
SaraMD, the people who like Maggie’s short but excellent essay, like it because it is well written, well founded, logical, intelligent.
She wrote factually about her own experiences, left room for difference of opinion, she uses historical data, the connection between the Abrahamic religions on the subject of women having to cover their hair, and the misogynist principles stated by the scholars of different religions.
Maggie put forward the discrepancy between the professed reasons of why women should cover their ”ornaments” versus the true reasons, which any body can get at if they would take the trouble to read it up for themselves.
Maggie discusses the original meaning of the word khimar in the old days, explaining it had a different meaning as nowadays.
She talks about the relevance of the concept of hayaa, ancient times and modern times.
She ends with a short declaration about the concept of choice
In no way can or should such a well written and thought out essay be ridiculed into a mere piece of ”guilt removal”
A person would have to have a really shallow and of confused mind to be able to do that.
And it is getting really stale, this endless, infantile inadequate pointing of fingers elsewhere.
you can go on over and over and over about a few women in ”the Wicked West” are also getting the short end of the stick in cultures where misogyny isn’t vanquished either.
But the undeniable fact is that women in the ”Wicked West” have a lot more freedom, a lot more choice, a lot more to say about their own destiny, and a hell of a lot more legal protection as in Islamic countries.
So any comparison is stupid and uncalled for.
Any complaining about how other countries might have some small problems does not in any way diminish the HUGE problems a dysfunctional society like Saudi Arabia has to deal with, thanks to gender segregation and a very unhealthy attitude towards ”the body”.
I know you try to do this because you are trying to prove that Islam is the best religion of all, but you really could choose to achieve that end in a more effective and believable way.
As it is it is a ridiculous effort.
Aafke,
I was not only referring to Maggie’s post (which I must say is good and her personal opinion) but also to so many other comments.
” the original meaning of the word khimar in the old days, explaining it had a different meaning as nowadays”
what makes you think that the her “original” meaning of khimar is right and others are wrong? Where is you evidence for that? Natural arabic speakers are wrong and others are more accurate?
So you approve of scantily clad women on huge billboards. Its all okay and shows the high dignity of women and how honorable they are. It is what freedom is all about – to allow men to undress you in public. And you complain about men who cover women up.
Again you misrepresent an argument and use that faulty misrepresentation as a basis to claim your argument.
If you cannot read you should not try to discuss.
1.) FGM is a disgusting practice and for any woman to justify it as a religious right and/or duty has her head so far up her ass its any wonder she has the ability to type.
2.) SarahMD, wtf is wrong with you and completely generalizing Western women as whores, or slutty dressers, or exploitive beings? Look, sex sells. People buy sex. Pretty people can move products faster than an ugly person and its as simple as that. The models in advertising products are there to make money. It’s that simple. You can argue till your face turns blue whether this is wrong or right, but really who the Hell cares? You probably buy make up, clothes, hair products, underwear, etc all endorsed and or sold by the same “cheap” women on the billboards/posters/commerdials/magazines that you so despise. What about half naked men showing off their glamour muscles in advertising, huh? Ever thought about how Muslim men might be influenced by ads depicting males with a 6-pack set of abs and a smile? No. There’s no debate because you focus on the relative degeneracy of the female form.
Get over yourself honey.
Women can do whatever the hell they like and whatever makes them feel good. It’s a choice that is theirs, and however she chooses to present those choices aesthetically is none of your affair.
Friebrand
Really? Then why not leave the muslim women alone. Let her wear what she wants.
BTW I think you didn’t quite get what I was talking about and you are quick to defend the naked women. While western women complain how muslim men are exploiting muslim women, western men are doing the same to western women. So it seems you agree that sex sells and that is why they use women for that purpose. Is that an honourabe think to do to upgrade the women in society? By displaying her all over? Is that what you call moving forward?
Sarah MD
“So whenever they see articles or post that goes according to what they want, they automatically love those aritcles so much…”
There is NO article or post that convinced me that hijab was not obligatory…I came to that decision just by reading the Quran…you know the Quran? That “perfect book”that is straight from God.
Yup…that one.
And for you to point fingers at women and say we twist words to mean what we want just to please ourselves…well that seriously just makes me think you are a man…cause men are the great corrupters of Islam…and love to corrupt when it suits them or benefits them…but get real pissed off when the same happens and it happens to benefit women in any fashion.
Sooooo…are you really a man? Just wondering.
Sarah MD
“what makes you think that the her “original” meaning of khimar is right and others are wrong? Where is you evidence for that? Natural arabic speakers are wrong and others are more accurate?”
Look up Arabic Lexicon usage..it will show you how arabic words have evolved over time and how their meanings have changed due to the communities use of it. Hijab never meant head covering…but now thats pretty much all it means. Khimar meant simply “cover” and now Muslims want it to mean head covering because thats the term that best fits the interpretation of the ayat they choose to accept.
Simple.
Sarah MD
The half naked women up on billboards chose to be there. They CHOSE that. Do you understand that point/ CHOICE. No muttawa with a stick came and forced them to get half naked and pose for a pic.
Now you are sitting there laughing I know and saying…how the hell does that make them better…is it not the same or worse to chase women with a stick cause u think she hasnt covered enough? Whats it to you if her ankle is out or her hair is showing? She will go to hell I guess and maybe she deserves it…right? Why do MEN have to take such interest in whether women cover or not..if its God ordered let God judge them and put them in Hell if He deems thats what they deserve.
BUT…instead of that…man controls woman and forces her to cover…even women force women to cover…with their finger pointing and judgement and superior air of righteousness.
Doesnt sound very religious to me.
Choice…that is the important word here. CHOICE.
@ SarahMD:
“Really? Then why not leave the muslim women alone. Let her wear what she wants.”
oh …put it back in the deck.
Women who happen to be Muslim live all over the world, from the East-Side to the West-Side, however they want to dress is up to them. I am not attacking Muslims, if she’s down with wearing a hijab, face cover, a paper bag, a top hat, or a bacinet with freaking chain mail on her head thats her business–rock on girl, do you. I’m cool with that.
I never implied that I was defending “naked women”. In case you were unaware to be “sexy” or to “exude sex appeal” does not correllate to being “fully nude”. Hell a woman rocking a hijab can be viewed as sexy or exuding sex appeal–is that wrong? A woman conducting a business meeting wearing a suit with pumps can exude sex appeal. A woman in a leotard and a tutu dancing Swan Lake perfectly can exude sex appeal….are you getting my point?
…if not….**Moral of the story: sexy is in the attitude not the garment.**
Unless you’re referring to pornographic images–then thatd a whole other issue.
As for mainstream internationally disseminated advertisements, marketers use women as much as they do men to reach their target consumers. This bi-polarity of the sexes to sell products is what it is. Everyone uses everyone else: men use women, and women use men. –Tick for Tack– Doesnt matter if you’re Black or White. Brown or Red. Strait or Gay. Transsexual or Transgendered. Christian or Muslim. Martian or Human.
You have a lot of beef with a woman who may appear in anyway nude or not wearing enough clothing (whatever “enough” means to you)–but I’ve yet to hear you equally condemn men for appearing shirtless (or pants-less) in a pair of tighty-whites proudly leaving nothing to the imagination about their “junk”. Are the men being degraded? You call that being exploited by women? You call that an “honourable think [sic] to do to upgrade” men in society?
Is that silence I hear?
Let me break something else down.
When complaints of women being mistreated by men arise there is usually a damn good reason for it–whether the man or woman is Muslim or not, Western or not–discussing issues that affect women who may have been victimized emotionally, sexually, physically, sociallly abused or mistreated is justifiable in the public space. It heightens peoples consciousness and sparks diescussion and debate and maybe some corrective action.
When you throw in centuries old cultural rituals and customs that are harmful to someone’s physical and mental health and well-being–and its given legitimacy and sanction by religious figures then there is a problem. This is nothing that is exclusive to Islam by any means, but since this is Carol’s blog and the subject happens to be about Muslim women in this context then this is issue of our debate.
You said earlier: “It is what freedom is all about – to allow men to undress you in public. And you complain about men who cover women up.”
Two Problems Ma’am:
1) Freedom is the choice to make indepedent decisions for yourself. Full stop.
2) If a man looks at women and only see them as sexual beasts in which to “do his business on”(from The Color Purple by Alice Walker) then thats the man’s damn problem. No amount of clothing a woman may wear will dismiss the thoughts going through his head.
3) Hell yes, we complain and pitch a bitch when a presumably religious man dictates that his women cover up when he doesn’t have the same mandate. Nor can his women require HIM to dress, and behave with modesty. and…. Why? Because…. It’s not about her. It’s about HIM. Allow me to say that again for clarity and resonance:
IT’S NOT ABOUT HER. IT’S ABOUT HIM.
And that is hypocricy.
When I read your other comments, and Africana’s, etc, I can’t help but think that it’s not always men holding women down–its women. Women can be far more effective oppressors then men. And thats scary.
Firebrand, so nice to see you!
You’ve got it pat. It’s not really about women and ”modesty”, it’s about MEN and their control over women. Over what they wear, where they go, and what they do. And most of all power over their sex-lives.
It’s about what men want.
About male control.
Nothing else!
Never mind that Africana and SaraMD and a few others who comment claim to be women: they are so thoroughly brainwashed, so subservient to the most misogynist male scholars , they are virtual slaves to men and what men want. They abuse other women and logic and are dishonest in their arguments to please their slave masters.
Is there something like ”Religious Ideological Stockholm Syndrome”? Because if not there should be a term invented to describe women like those two.
Give the evil a name and it becomes less scary.
Aafke its great to be back! I’ve missed you and Carol and CoolRed.
I think this debate has really just exhausted itself.
These women need a Sassy Gay Friend in their lives:
“Save it Patty Hurst, I’m not buying any Stockholm Syndrome today!”
PS. I highly recommend viewing Sassy Gay Friend in Othello and Hamlet. lol!
Carol,
Would it be possible for you to do an identical post about taking the body to extremes but for men this time? I am really curious about the kinds of responses the male dimenstion of this topic would be.
*correction: dimension
Watched the video’s:
Woehahahahahahahaha!
Loved the video! I want a sassy gay friend!!!!
@ firebrand
I respect your right to make whatever comments you wish and to state your opinion. I understand that a lot of the women here are advocating the woman’s right to chose not to wear the hijab.
However as a Muslim who covers her hair I reject you assertion that it is bad for my well being and mental health. This is not based upon fact but is just a reflection of your own prejudiced ideas.
I am perfectly sane – just ask my shrink!
The discussions have spun in many interesting and debatable directions.
Firebrand – thank you for the wonderful suggestion. Stay tuned… a post oriented at the men is forthcoming.
I respect a woman’s choice to cover. However I have difficulty accepting that women are weak and need to be protected or where others may say that men are weak and can’t control themselves, hence women must cover. Associating cover with weakness whether on the part of the man or the woman is a cop out to me.
I am a mother but did not give birth to any daughters. Yet I can say that as a Mom, I would never allow a daughter of mine to undergo any form of circumcision. To me, that is unnecessary and unhealthy cutting. (shudder)
@Sarah MD
Even though you won’t answer (but might just surprise me)…you said: “Then why not leave the muslim women alone. Let her wear what she wants. ”
Why not leave me alone:
-I’m a woman
-I’m Muslim
-I’m married to a wonderful Muslim man
-I wear the hijab (30 years and counting)
-I was born in the West
-I live in the West
Why do you abuse Muslim women of the West? You just said, “Then why not leave the muslim women alone. Let her wear what she wants.”…or is it that they are not from the Middle East, maybe from a particular country? Is that why you generalize, even with Western Muslim women?
You say that all we in the West (regardless of religious affiliation, or dress thereof) always make much ado over the oppression of women in Islam, in ME couties, etc. Etc. And you only counter with blaming us for the perversion, the commercials, the magazines, billboards and god knows what else based on hearsay from one “young” friend in college who has the time from her studies to ogle the “alleged” female that entered the class with a see through blouse and unknown what was under it- but it sure caught your “young” friend’s eye. Also state that other “friends” from the West tell you x, y, and z…
But when I ask you to hear and watch the voices of not only prominent but much more so the regular women from the city of Tehran…you are silent; you have nothing to say; you won’t defend these Muslim women; who cover within the range that is accepted in Iran…yet these women, every single one of them Iranian, living in Iran, working (or trying to), studying in Iran (or trying to study what they want and scarfriced for)- are clamoring in a very dignified way for their rights under Islam and the Iranian constitution that are rightfully theirs. They are not asking for the burning of the hijab or chador; nor are they saying they are better than men- they are stating that the Qur’an states men and women are equal. And all this was done in an orderly fashion, with a documentary film so they could speak uninterrupted and to the point…
But you have nothing to say.
I would ask Miriam of Iran to tell me if that film is true or not- that every one of those women are real or figments of a ‘Westerner’ passing for an Iranian film maker’s imagination.
I want Africana, and any other who feels offended by us of the West- those that did not accept your views on the quality of a woman’s life, body, space, and intelligence- what then of those Muslim women in Iran what would you tell them to convince them that they should be beaten, mutilated, imprisoned and executed for asking for their GOD given Rights; for asking to be treated with dignity; to be treated as thinking females of the human race; for defending their honor or the honor of their daughters.
What have you to say?
Like Coolred would say, ‘I’m waiting…’
SarahMD
You said: ” I understand that a lot of the women here are advocating the woman’s right to chose not to wear the hijab.”
You understand wrong. Again. It’s the issue of individual choice. To wear or not to wear a hijab ought to be an individual decision. Absent that choice you have coercion and that is fundamentally unfair and diminishes the reasons why one chooses to veil or not.
“However as a Muslim who covers her hair I reject you assertion that it is bad for my well being and mental health.”
That is NOT what I was getting at. However Carol summed it up nicely just 3-4 posts above. Read it. Seek to Understand it.
“This is not based upon fact but is just a reflection of your own prejudiced ideas.”
Irony.
@Firebrand,
I have always felt my name was too popular – there has always been another Sarah in my classes at school – but I am not sarahMD, I am a different sarah. I do not agree with many of the thing she said here as you can see nfrom my comments.
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment but it seemed to be what you were implying with the statement below:
When you throw in centuries old cultural rituals and customs that are harmful to someone’s physical and mental health and well-being–and its given legitimacy and sanction by religious figures then there is a problem.
I do agree that covering is an issue of choice and coercion is wrong. I am merely trying to explain why i cover and express that there are people who chose to cover. Their choice is surely as valid (and not any less) than women who chose not to cover. As you said – it’s all about freedom, from both sides of the debate.
I agree, it’s about choice, freedom of choice. Many people have said so.
And covering your head all the time makes your hair fall out
And covering your body all the time from sunlight will give you all kinds of diseases, including serious ostheoporosis.
And will burden your children with the deforming deficicency disease rickets.
If there was a God, and She wanted women to ”cover” then these problems wouldn’t exist.
@aafke art
Perhaps there is no prefect solution to these problems because i can tell you as a blonde I burn very easily so also the converse is true. It is dangerous to expose my skin to the sun. There is also the risk of skin cancer.
You seem to support freedom of choice while at the same time seeking to belittle the choice that women make to cover by claiming it is deforming my children. I think those statements simply dont hold true for the vast majority of women who cover.
@coolred,
“There is NO article or post that convinced me that hijab was not obligatory…I came to that decision just by reading the Quran…you know the Quran? That “perfect book”that is straight from God.”
If you came to that conclusion then it is up to you to choose not to wear but to say it is the rule of Islam is like you are makng some Fatwas. And the manner you are speaking about the Quran shows your disrespect to the
Book – the one which you profess to follow. Is that any way to talk? You commented about the derogatory names I happen to direct to one reader because of her lack of manner. But you are showing your disrepect to the Book. Do you think that is the best of behaviours? And no I am not a man. Thank God.
“Look up Arabic Lexicon usage..it will show you how arabic words have evolved over time” So who wrote Lexicon? Bunch of women?
“Khimar meant simply “cover” and now Muslims want it to mean head covering ”
No it is not NOW that muslims want it to mean head covering, it was the meaning in those days and NOW.
“The half naked women up on billboards chose to be there. They CHOSE that. Do you understand that point/ CHOICE. No muttawa with a stick came and forced them to get half naked and pose for a pic”
Ok they CHOSE to be there. That makes my point that I am trying to make even stronger. Do these women who choose to undress in public think that this is
FREEDOM and advancing? So it is not the men but themselves who do this. It is so much worse. Don’t you get it? They have no shame in that because they
have been brainwashed to think that if you bare yourself then that is the modern way, the right way, the “rights” accomplished. That is what they are
taught? Who is the one who photgraphs them in this way, or makes porn movies and sites, and mags. If they chose it themselves, do you really believe that
that makes it right? To me it is worse than being forced.
I am surprsied that you do not say anything against these women thus showing that you approve it. Is it something to do with patriotism? IF you hate what they are doing then you can say, yes what they are doing is wrong but no one is forcing them. You must hate it in your heart and not defend it.
My actual point was that if muslim women want to cover themselves then why stop them and say it is wrong and that men made the rules. If you do not
want to cover then don’t but do not make it a rule. There are many many many women who wear it out of their own choice. I am one of them. I was not forced into it AT ALL. Even now if I remove it, no one would stop me. But I choose to wear it.And there are many like me.
“Why do MEN have to take such interest in whether women cover or not”
IS it better that men tell you to undress or to dress? your answer will depend of your hayaa. Muslims belong to the Ummah, each one is the brother of the other, or a sister. If one brother/sister is in the wrong, it is the duty of the ummah to correct it. SO yes men and women can tell the other to cover up. BUT forcing one is not right. You inform, educate, tell, adivse one, two or three times and then leave it. Rest is up to the person. My point was not about that. Because in the end God judges and who is the loser?
Come to think of it, if men made the rules, they would NOT tell the women to cover up, they would say that walking exposed is the best thing according to the “rights”.
@Firebrand
you are still not getting me so I cannot reply to you.
“You said: ” I understand that a lot of the women here are advocating the woman’s right to chose not to wear the hijab.””
These are not my words. It is the other Sarah who said this. But I agree with her.
@Inal
“Why not leave me alone:…”
I didn’t force you to do anything.
“Why do you abuse Muslim women of the West? You just said, “Then why not leave the muslim women alone. Let her wear what she wants.”…or is it that
they are not from the Middle East, maybe from a particular country? Is that why you generalize, even with Western Muslim women?”
I am talking about the muslim women who cover.
“And you only counter with blaming us for the perversion, the commercials,
the magazines, billboards and god knows what else based on hearsay from one “young” friend in college who has the time from her studies to ogle the
“alleged” female that entered the class with a see through blouse and unknown what was under it- but it sure caught your “young” friend’s eye.”
Sorry, but it is not only from my friends there. I have my relatives also staying in US and people who have studied there and returned. ALL can’t be wrong.
“But when I ask you to hear and watch the voices of not only prominent but much more so the regular women from the city of Tehran…you are silent;”
I really do not know what you are talking about. Maybe I have missed some link you have posted? Sorry if I have. I would be grateful if you would direct me to the source of that.
@ Sarah and SarahMD: Apologies for the confusion.
Everybody else… I’m over beating a dead horse. I’ll see you in the next topic.
Yeah, they just want to have the last word..
Let’s leave them to it!
FYI I agree with everything Coolred has said about Hijab. Sorry, you can’t bully people into believing your innovations and your clergy.
I don’t care who wears hijab- I care when they say it is Islamic when it really isnt’ especially when that position is used to oppress women.
Hear! Hear! Sandy – ‘I don’t care who wears hijab- I care when they say it is Islamic when it really isnt’ especially when that position is used to oppress women’
Exactly what I was thinking when SarahMD said ‘If you came to that conclusion then it is up to you to choose not to wear but to say it is the rule of Islam is like you are makng some Fatwas’
If so many of us are able to read the Quran and come out of it with the idea that covering to the extreme is NOT a rule then it sounds, to us, that it is YOU that are making up your own fatwas, no?
@SarahMD -Come to think of it, if men made the rules, they would NOT tell the women to cover up, they would say that walking exposed is the best thing according to the “rights”.
Actually no, they would not say that because they do not want their PROPERTY being looked at by anyone but themselves. Men can be very jealous creatures.
@Sandy, Maggie,
to struggle with the implementation of hijab is one thing, but to deny that it is a requirement in the face of ample eveidence is another thing entirely.
what i also find disturbing and i’m sure you would too, if you would only seek refuge in God, are your hostile put-downs of those of us who voice standard interpretations of Islam and the quasi-alliance that you apear to enjoy with those of a faintly racist, neo-orienatlist persuasion.
And when it is said to them: `Cause not corruption in the land,’ they say: `We are nothing if not reformers.’ Nay, unknown to themselves they are workers of corruption. When they meet those who believe they say: we believe. And when they go apart unto their satans, they say: Verily we are with you; we did but mock”
Sarah MD
I have never attempted to issue a Fatwa..I leave that for the holier than thous. I merely used my intellect of which God gave me…and my understanding that if God bothered himself to create the world and all thats in it…he has much more things to worry about than a woman and her hair.
I also did not say anything about those women on those billboards because they have nothing to do with me. I dont judge them. They made their choices and they can live with the consequences…so to speak.
However…having lived 23 years in a “Muslim” country…my personal business was EVERYONES business. There wasnt a single person over there who felt they could just let me live my life how I choosed and wear or not wear the hijab if thats what I chose. They all had an opinion. They either expressed that opinion with discreetly given pamphelts…or with long winded lectures…or even the occassional spit from a passing man with words unbecoming of a Muslim man.
Oh yes…lets not forget the rock or two thrown for added emphasis.
btw I have no disrespect for the Quran. It is, after all, merely a BOOK. How do you disrespect a book?
The disrespect comes when those words in that book are used to oppress…and that is what is happening.
A woman that is forced to cover is oppressed…a woman that is forced to undress is oppressed. A woman that has to ask someone else or please someone else when it comes to either putting on or taking off clothing…is oppressed.
If you do not consider someone elses opinion or potential condemnation when dressing…when donning your hijab or choosing not to…then good for you. You are one of the few and far between.
May God bless you for your efforts, but for every woman out there that makes that statement and believes it to be true…there are a million more women that do not have that luxery. In other words…they have NO choice.
Choice Sarah MD….it all boils down to choice.
God gave it to us…why cant we give it to each other?
@Africana
The more i read of your comment the more delusional you sound. You cannot even understand some simple definitions.
A good example:
“God, are your hostile put-downs of those of us who voice standard interpretations of Islam and the quasi-alliance that you apear to enjoy with those of a faintly racist, neo-orienatlist persuasion.”
For your info Racism= The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
I have not seen anyone here talked about race except you. The fact that people disagree with your ideas means simply just that. The fact that you insert race in it, means you have no valid arguments to contribute. No one cares about your race. We just wish you have better logic and perhaps better arguments.
@Africana,
Coolred and I both wore hijab for years. I can’t speak for her- but I had no problem with it’s implementation. I wore it in the west- and I wore it in the ME.
I could just as easliy talk about how some people hide behind manmade religious symbolism- pretending that is actually doing something, in order to feel good about themselves.
As for your racism remarks as MoQ (thank you) so kindly pointed out- they don’t make sense. For one thing- do you even know what “race” I am? I don’t know what “race” you are.
Oh- and I am only hostile to “standard interpretations of Islam” (emphasis on ‘interpretation’) when they start interfering with other peoples rights.
@ Sandy: ”you can’t bully people into believing your innovations and your clergy.
I don’t care who wears hijab- I care when they say it is Islamic when it really isnt’ especially when that position is used to oppress women.”
very good comment.
@ africana, you keep on using strawman arguments.
one fallacy after the other. discussion with you is impossible.
”standard interpretation”? You use the ”appeal to popularity” and the ”appeal to authority” fallacies here.
I see you believe only what you think a majority thinks. You accept claims without adequate evidence for it to be true. And then you attack those who do not accapt claims without proof. And who can prove your claims are incorrect.
You enter racism here? where does that come from? Do you know that all african people are name ”abid” the slaves? As you call yourself africa I suppose your coloured. You will be named a slave behind your back in saudi.
My husband remembered they still had black slaves in his youth.
Nobody enslaved more africans then Muslims. they did it for fourteen hundred years.
All arabs are racist against each other. they are racist against blacks.
You want to find racism, go to the Islamic countries of the middle east.
I haven’t seen real racism until I got to live in the middle east.
Nobody else is racist on this blog. You are programmed to think everybody who does not agree with you must be racist.
Here is a video you should see
I just have to chime in on this- I’ve known so many people from Africa who were NOT “black” that I never assume.
There were also white slaves in Saudi. It wasn’t just a racially based thing. Circassian, and I believe Georgian as well.
i am not so petty as to make infantile “it’s because i’m black innit?” type remarks whether there was any evidence of them or not…and there wasn’t.
i saw no evidence of any racism directed at me but plenty towards both arabs and muslims.
“Lie#612 : Islam isn’t a race hence abuse of Muslims is in no way or form racist. My, my, my, aren’t they so very clever? Insistence that Islam isn’t a race and therefore representations of Islam cannot be racist is disingenuous rubbish. Religion is not only about faith but also about identity, background and culture, and Muslims are overwhelmingly non-white. In the mind of the hate mongers, Islam is a religion of non-whites and white race traitors. They see black skin and head scarves the same way. Being Jewish used to be simply a religious identity. With the rise of capitalism, it was transmuted into a racial one. What we are seeing today is the opposite process with Islam. If we must be so asinine as to insist upon using skin color as a determinant of race, I would ask why the Muslims represented in Islamophobic filth never EVER look like Indonesian Muslims, even though it is the most populous Muslim country on the planet. The reason is simple: Muslims are seen and stereotyped as a “race,” especially as dark skinned, unkempt Arabs and Pakistanis.”
http://drmaxtor.blogspot.com/search?q=islamophobia+racism
Oh dear, you are so deluded. People are arguing against your ideas. Not your skincolour.
So now if you are against Islam you are a racist? And if you are against Christianity you are what?
You are the only racist here, your comment is racist against white people.
I think most of the women here are married to Arabs, otherwise they are interested in Arab people. And they care about Arab people. So they are not the racists here.
You are the real, the only racist operating here.
It sounds like you could have grown up in Nation of Islam.
I don’t get it, You are racist, you are sexist, you are a religious zealot, you hate women, You hate men, you hate white people… Why are you here? What do you want?
please view my previous comment. you assumed that my comment about people exuding a faint racism was about me. it wasn’t and i think that anyone who plays the race card in reference to themselves in a largely anonymous forum is deluded.
for one thing, how could i possibly know that you even think i am a person of colour?
i was referring to the casual racism towards ARABS NOT AFRICANS and to the islamophobia present in this thread.
i had to laugh at your final comment. that is so not me but anyway..
Most of the women commenting here..has direct ties to Arabs..married or having children…so it would be a hard claim to make that we are racists. You dont marry and have sex and then children with someone you are racist against.
Even though I have some deep seated griefs with Arabs and some of their cultural beliefs..I could never hate them or feel racists towards them simply because Arab blood runs through my childrens bodies. My children taught me tolerance towards a people that were so determined to make me hate them through their treatment of me.
Eventually I would meet other Arabs that treated me well..and even loved/love me…but in those first early years…I didnt have that…I only had the experience of living among Arabs that appeared to be racists against ME…not the other way around.
Sandy…I was forced to wear hijab…hated every moment of it. The wearing of it was NOT hard…living with it was. In my mind it represented another thing in my life I had no say over…no control over. And hiding this abusive control of me behind such words as..God requires women cover their hair from men blah blah blah…just made me want to spit nails.
No God I believe in would stoop to such sexist beliefs.
Right. So you played the race card on behalf of Muslims. You accused other posters of being racist against Muslims- a group of which you are a member. A group of which many of us our members. So how does that work?
“If we must be so asinine as to insist upon using skin color as a determinant of race.”
We’d be pretty asinine to insist that it isn’t. Pray tell, what else do you use? Have anyone come up with a definition of race that is free from skin color?
Muslims are not “overwhelmingly” nonwhite, unless your definition of white include blond-and-blue-eyeness. Lebanese, Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians, Caucasus Muslims, Azeris, Turks, some Gulfies, Albanians are white-skinned as can be. Are they all non-entities to you?
@Coolred
Your situation was quite different than mine. Being forced to do something is always hard. I used to “believe” in Hijab- and it was easy to do. In many ways NOT wearing it in Saudi is harder. So I don’t understand why people always assume NOT wearing hijab is the easy way out.
@sarah md
Inal-“Why not leave me alone:…”
I didn’t force you to do anything.”
I believe your usage of the written English language- in the case of meaning needs revision…
“Only the women who cover.” I see- what is this cover- the hijab and decent clothes or the abaya, hijab, and/or niqab? Don’t bother makes no difference.
I hope you have millions of friends who live or visit the Hemisphere of America, Continent of Europe, Africa, and all the nations that on the Pacific (on a globe you can go West until it becomes the East- rotational, spherical sort of thing that is Earth). And I hope they have talked to everyone in the language, know the cultures and religions of the lands- because other than that its just a blooming opinion! Not facts- just someone talking to impress you, to make you feel important…but they’re words with no substance. And yes they can all be wrong! Because if they were spending their days and nights with the Amish- well they would not have even watched television- and Dutch Country as we call the areas the Amish inhabit- is not small and are in various regions of the USA- I have not seen Amish outside of the Usa so I can’t say where else in America they may be- when was the last time one of your friends and family sat in a horse drawn buggy? Had some of their wonderful preserves- their marmalades are fab!
Oh let’s not forget the Christians like the famous Duggers- all religious, very pious, heart warming people- 19 kids and counting- they belong to a very self sufficient branch, with real big families- know any of your friends that have visited with them?
Oh, and must ask one of your friends or family members in Spain to go visit my cousin in Burgos who is a cloistered nun… I don’t think they’ve met that wonderful group of women that make the best chocolate, breads, and pastries in Spain- they can go visit them anytime- they’re always home…
The link for your erudition:
http://www.linktv.org/programs/we-are-half-of-irans-population
Ok, I’ve refrained from commenting on this thread because discussions about hijab irratate me. It’s always the same. On one side is the hijab/niquabi who are superior to the slutty half-clothed women and the other side says hijabi/niquabis are oppressed women who are pawns of men. I really hate the stereotyping of both sides and inability of either side to see where the other is coming from.
I do have to congradulate Maggie as that is the most original and well thought answer to the hijab I’ve ever read.
One of the problems I see is there are just too many variables of what a hijab is and the debate on whether or not it’s an obligation or a requirement. What I see is if your idea of hijab is the abaya, hijab, niquab outfits of the Middle East then there are quite a few Muslimahs that aren’t following that but are consider hijabis since they cover their hair.
I think what a lot of Westerners see as a symbol of hijab is the ME abaya/niquab or the Afganistan burka. Both of those are symbols of oppressive KSA and Afganistan/Taliban society and government. If you look at from a Westerner’s prospective then those two governments are/were oppressive in not allowing women the choice of covering or not. I would hope that Westerners would realize that those symbols of oppression is only a percentage of Islamic women that cover. If you look at Indonesia where the largest amount of Muslims are from then you see that hijab is different there and the government is not oppressive like KSA or the Taliban.
For the hijabi/niquabi/abaya wearing women I would say the gross stereotypes of slutty Western women is insulting. Please realize that women in the West have been fighting the thinking that clothing or lack there of is an excuse for men to behave abhorrently. There is NO justification for rape and men should learn self-control as Islam commands. I would think that it is more pleasing to Allah that those who are tested show restraint as he commanded instead of putting the burden only on women. It doesn’t seem like the equality supposedly taught by Islam when women are the ones at fault and men get the benefit of the doubt because that’s his nature. If a Muslimah truly decides on her own that she wishes to cover then that is her choice. But that Muslimah should not feel superior to other people who don’t cover nor try to justify her actions by making Muslim males seem like eternal teenagers with no concept of self-control.
As a Asian-American I am uspet by the objectivity of women in the media and advertisments in Western countries. It does bother me that women here having image problems because of the waifish airbrushed models we see everyday everywhere. It does bother me that eating disorders are a big problem in Western societies. Sadly that problem is now also effecting men who see advertisments where men have to have ripped abs and slim builds.
I don’t deny there are problems in the West but I would not trade that for the oppression of KSA. Because to me a place where women have to hide themselves for protection means that something is very wrong with that society. I do wonder how many women in KSA would not cover if society didn’t view her as a slut or open herself to jail or a beating. People there can say it’s a choice but the reality is it’s not. It’s enforced by the muttawa and society.
I read this article not too long ago and it really made me think about how we in the West view clothing, women’s rights, and society.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tove-hermanson/women-pants-politics_b_541555.html
I think the article sums up nicely why Western women feel clothing is so tied to women’s rights.
This is my 2cents.
Nice article oby.
They left out one important factor; riding dress for women already included riding breeches with an apron skirt in the late eighteenth century, and many women started to wear riding breeches outright in the 20s when they started riding astride again.
But yes, there is a deeply rooted connection between restrictive clothing and women’s lib in the west.
I think it’s so deeply rooted that it will be in the subconcious of every one in the west.
But then that is not surprising. I keep repeating there is definitely a very strong correlation between discrimination and suppression and dress restrictions/restrictive dress/ body image.
And choice.
Oh sorry, that’s onigirifb!
It’s night! I should be sleeping!!!!!
OnigiriFB…
I think you bring up a very good point.
I have read on various blogs that when Saudi women leave the confines of KSA, the abayas come off and the Western clothes are the choice of wear.
While I think a lot of Muslim women wear the hajib because they feel it is what God wants, ironically it is because they are afraid of displeasing god and therefore would not take a chance of not wearing it so it isn’t really a choice. To them it is required. they have to wear it…there is no choice involved. We are saying that they are being forced by men to wear it. I think that indirectly they are but are not aware of that.
My personal opinion after listening to so many sides is that covering was meant for your breasts…I have read also several women Muslim “scholars” (one in particular who is a professor of Islamic studies) who feels the same way…It enjoined women to be modest with the covering that they already had…the same sort of cloth that women in India wear called a dupatta that hangs loosely on the shoulders but can be brought up to cover the body in a variety of ways…draped over the head…across the bosoms…when it is dusty it can cover the mouth and face to protect against the elements. otherwise it is decorative piece of cloth.
I think it is men over time who have changed the meaning of the covering and call to modesty and they have brilliantly made it appear as if God has commanded it. If it were a man “who said so” a woman might take on the cause and dare to defy a man…but God? who would dare to defy Him? and risk sin and not getting to heaven? So although women say they wear it out of choice I don’t see it as a choice at all for them. Those who don’t wear it have come to understand that God didn’t actually want full covering and have freed themselves of that requirement without losing piety.
I can’t help but wonder though, if a major cleric came out and said that it is NOT required afterall and women started removing the hijab, if slowly others would follow. In the seventies a lot of women didn’t feel the hijab was obligatory. Somewhere along the way, clerics convinced women they needed to wear it because God commanded it. Was there a new messenger about 30 years ago that brought some new change that didn’t exist up until that point? Why didn’t women consider it obligatory then? It’s not that long ago.Or slowly did women feel the pressure (again not really a free choice) to put it on as their sisters followed the directive of the clerics and started to wear hijab?
I personally feel it is the later one…the clerics (men) demanded it and made it appear that God required it of all Muslim women. Brilliant strategy!
@NN: “I advocate nothing. I merely make an observation that men who grew up in sexually repressed societies tend to have substandard bedroom skills – in my eyes. I think that good lovers require equal measures of healthy attitude to sex, lack of inhibition with their bodies and yes, practice doesn’t hurt….That is a matter of preference. I think virgins should marry each other – why train them on other people’s time? I am happy to leave the unskilled ones behind for you. I prefer men who have already been schooled in these arts. But that’s just me.”
Ok love, I’ll take your unskilled ones for a practice run and you can keep the schooled ones with all the STD’s…enjoy!
But I agree with you about the virgins. I really do see a certain beauty in virgins marrying and experiencing their first sexual experience together. They should definitely have some sex ed and manuals beforehand which should provide ample basic knowledge to get things started nicely. There is no need for sex before marriage; your comments suggest this is better than virginity. But from my Muslim perspective this is damaging to society given that fornication is considered sinful in Islam. Good sex is great but it is not worth being sinful for. And it is not the be-all and end-all to a successful marriage. Many have it and then lose it due to ill health, what then? The marriage had better be based on something a hell of a lot more sustainable otherwise it’s over.
@ Reason over Religion: ”suggestive” dancing?
Some saudi ”dancing” is só xxx-rated it is too much for a slutty westerner to look at!
I really think that the women are oversexed too in effect of all this segregation.
They are dying to know about men and what men do.
Or they have lesbian relationships. One of my friend did not send her daughter to a certain school because she found out there were so many lesbian couples.”
Sex ed, sex ed, sex ed! They need more of this in Saudi schools and less segregation. I have daughters and do not want them to fear men. They need to learn that men and women both have the ability to control themselves and can mingle responsibly without always resorting to premarital sex. It is possible with a little bit of (or maybe a lot depending on the individual) of self control.
Really, I don’t think the abayah/hijab/women’s body would be such a big issue in Saudi if segregation wasn’t enforced. I do however like the idea of segregated education, I’m a bit prudish in that regard but outside of this segregation hardly seems natural and is most certainly not doing this society any favors unfortunately. It doesn’t teach self control, it teaches scapegoating and it isn’t part of Islam, it is Saudi culture in disguise…and all of this is very dangerous.
Wow the discussion is still going on! Its getting heated, as usually with the subject of women and dressing!
I wanted to say to Coolred-I am sorry for saying you are bitter. I will change it to angry like you said, maybe that’s a better word 🙂 And sure anyone would be angry in your situation.. I think its sometimes difficult to communicate like this, we cant hear eachothers tones of voice or know if someones being sarcastic or not..So I apologize for being harsh.
I wrote a post about the womens right to cover vs the right to uncover on my blog..Its too long to rewrite here, but it pretty much says what I was also trying to say here but apparently failed 🙂 The link is:
http://blueabaya.blogspot.com/2010/06/womans-right-to-uncover-vs-right-to.html
I hope you read it Moq maybe it will answer some of the things you asked me.
I think the main problem is actually DEFINING uncovering/covering. Everybody has their own perceptions. And I guess that’s why everyone seems to disagree!
What i hope is for everyone to try to look on the “other side of the fence”. The grass may not be greener, but at least take a look before judging!
And Aafke, I’m sorry you said those things above about me..You have really got me all wrong..I dont know what to say to you because it seems to be a little difficult to get accross to you, since you now have formed a certain opinion of me.
Laylah don’t waste your time apologizing for sharing your thoughts. Just put it out there respectfully and be done with it. People will either accept it or reject it, that’s part of life. And people will either accept or reject you, that’s part of life too. It’s not always easy to take but at the end of the day it’s ONLY OPINIONS! Some are just more feisty with sharing theirs than others are. You absolutely must grow a thick skin if you’re going to participate anywhere where Islam/Saudi/Hijab/Women is discussed. 🙂
Laylah…
I think the way you express yourself is lovely. It is always nice to try to get your point across in a way that is clear and respectful and calm. all of us don’t always agree but I personally find people who are polite and generous in spirit a pleasure to share with whether they agree with me or not. 🙂
Personally I think covering is a means of control. To me it’s men AND women of society founded on Judeo-Christian-Islam religions trying to control human sexuality. Covering and gender segregation take it to an extreme as a means of controlling human sexuality.
One thing that never fails to amaze me is that people fight about Western countries “immorality” and Middle Eastern countries “morality” but no one brings in the Eastern religions. You seem to find a lot of sexual hangups in people who have grown up with the three main monotheistic religions. In India human sexuality is celebrated with the kama sutra and the temple showing human copulation. In the Far East human sexuality is seen as a healthy and natural thing. As far as I understand the old pagan religions celebrated human sexuality as well and you can see that in the history of heteras (sp?) and statues showing women’s privates.
So where did this idea that human sexuality and mainly woman’s sexuality become something that had to be controlled? Why is fornication such a sin? What used to be seen as a means of experiencing God became something that can keep you away from God. Strange.
I can understand no adultery because man needed to know that the children he raised are his to ensure inheritance. However, it’s sad that because of that human sexuality in general also became something that needs control namely a women’s sexuality. Men’s sexuality gets a wink wink nod nod excuse of oh that’s just men’s nature. That’s anachronistic patriarchal crap in my book. A woman can and should control her own sexuality.
Oh and I also think that men who are experienced are better lovers all around. Actually women who are in tune with their bodies, ok with their sexuality, and believe that sex is a natural enjoyable human activity also make better lovers. A common problem with Mormon men and women (who are both told to only have sex with a spouse with equal penalties for breaking that) is that they grew up with the idea sex=bad and then all of a sudden sex is ok because they are married. Well needless to say the sexual hangups they experience because of that isn’t pretty.
Oh btw men in the wicked West don’t all run around with STDs so another gross stereotype. Men in the West have been educated, blessed with modern medicine, and have access to condoms. Since women aren’t expected to lock up their sexuality they are also educated, blessed with modern medicine, and have access to condoms. Don’t kid yourself by thinking STDs aren’t a problem in KSA because people don’t talk about it. How many poor women are infected because their “moral” husbands infected them and they don’t know anything?
Actually come to think of it women covering and gender segregation hasn’t eradicated adultery, fornication, STDs, nor has it protected women from rape or harassment. Nor has it made men see a women’s personality or respect her for her mind. There’s a reason I think men get to see a women’s face if he’s interested in marrying her. He’s got to make sure she’s pretty because he sure as hell doesn’t get a chance to know anything about her personality. So why is gender segregation and women covering a good thing again? Heh.
I think covering is the most visible symbol of Islam for many people. I believe it is requested in the Quran and I believe it should be a matter of choice, not coercion.
However, while we are all so busy judging each other, I would like to add that, even though I cover, I do not see this as the only – or even the most important- aspect of my areligion.
As far as I am concerned the main points of my religion are to worship God and to serve humanity. While covering may be of some benefit to me it will not ‘save’ me if I haven’t followed up this act by doing further actions.
Personally, I think I don’t think I do enough on this second part. I get so wrapped up with my daily life that doing more acts of charity takes a bit of a back seat.
I have always liked the hadith that the woman who was of ‘low virtue’ (maybe a prostitute) saw a thirsty dog and gave her water with her shoe. All her bad deeds were forgiven for doing this act of kindness. This is the merciful God I personally believe in.
So, it is a real shame the vitriolic and judgemental tone of some of these comments. While I do cover, there are far more important issues in the world.
@Lynn
“they do not want their PROPERTY being looked at by anyone but themselves.”
And what is wrong with a husband not wanting others to look at his wife or a father his daughter? Or do you think that it is better a woman becomes a show piece for everyone to see?
@Coolred
“my understanding that if God bothered himself to create the world and all thats in it…he has much more things to worry about than a woman and her hair.”
And who is making a big deal out of it?
What you experienced in the ME is something that alot of women have experienced before you, now and will in the future. I am sorry for you having to go through that and that experience gave you negative views. But there are countless other expats who are living a heaven and enjoying themselves. It is unfortunate that people force others to do things. Sometimes I feel that locals think that Islam belongs to them personally and if they see an expat who becomes a Muslim, they want to boss over them thinking they have a right to do this since they are “born muslims” and so have more knowledge!
“I have no disrespect for the Quran. It is, after all, merely a BOOK.”
It is not MERELY a BOOK. It is a divine book. I know you are sitting there shaking your head – but yes it is and as a Muslim, you should understand that.
@Inal
your reply is just ridiculous that I cannot even believe that you came up with such a reply.
“because other than that its just a blooming opinion! Not facts- just someone talking to impress you, to make you feel important…but they’re words with no substance.”
Really? To impress me? And they have nothing to better to do than impress me. My relatives and friends, who have been living in US for more than 30 years, are just talking to impress me and to make me feel important for whatever reasons! Maybe in their retirment age, they just need to pass the time. How can you judge that they are words with no substance? Are you calling them liars? How do you know they are spending time with Amish? Have you met them? They already have their own jobs and businesses. Besides what Amish have to do with what they say?
“And yes they can all be wrong!”
I do not think so. You gave me a link of some Iranis and said I did not comment on them. I can say the same to you. They can also all be wrong. Just because it is on tape does not make it right. I can give you links too about the women in the west. I am a quarter Irani and I am not denying what is on that link, but I will not just say its not true like you. Onigiri is more honest in her opinion. She does recognise the problem in the west and does not just sweep it under the carpet.
Sarah MD
“And who is making a big deal out of it?”
Uhmmmm….well lets see. Muslims?
I still stand by my comment. The Quran is merely a Book…if you believe the words are from God…then the words are divine…but those words werent even in book form in the beginning…so in essence the book itself is not divine..only the words or message.
A collection of divine words and messages into a book makes it divine, however much you try to twist the words to suit yourself. It is still a divine. When you are talking about the Book, you are not referring to the cover of the book but the messages in the Book, so it is divine. Lets not go into a debate about this as its not something to argue about.
dear Inal , thank you for your words toward Iran, you are the first person I have met in cyberspace that dont think problems of Iranian women is hijab, I appreciate your concern about Iranian women.thank you so much.
most of the women who are in this video are advocates of Mirhossein Mosavi, like Shadi Sadr , and Faeze Rafsanjani(daughter of former president, Hashemi Rafsanjani).those who were arrested like Shadi Sadr were freed later.
unfortunately most of human activists in west think problem of Iranian women is puting a loose headscarf on their head.no Its not our problem.we want our goverment reform laws about marriage, divorce,custody of kids and inheritance that has been set up near 45 years ago(yes shah set this laws and punishment(jaza) laws too). this laws are completely in contrary with teaching of Quran.we want Iran join international convention of women rights.we want goverment dont interfer in national exam for universities(if goverment dont interfer women will be 80% of university students).we want equal job opportunities, we want fair salaries,we want more maternity leave for new working moms, we want harsh punishment for sex abusers and honor killers.we want drive safe cars (tarif of foreign cars are so high in Iran,Iran has one of highest car accident rates in world) we want sex education.we want lower cost of renting an apartment (many single women cant pay high rents so they live with parents),we dont want drugs of afganistan transit from Iran to Europe(seems imposible, no?) we have near 4 milion drug addicted in our country thank to drug traders who sell their drug near zero price(if all of angels of god put their hand on holy Quran and say US goverment is not responsible for producing drug in afganistan , I cant believe, you can call me anything you want), we want private channels, we want higher speed for internet, we want more cinemas , more parks , better education, we want national healthcare , we want social security specialy for single moms(90 % of single moms are hardwoking women who try earn halal money to maintain their life and children, but in western media, we see single moms in Iran are prostitue,for western audience those harworking 90% are not attractive, some of Iranian filmmakers only want to please western audience). list of thing we want is countinued. but I am sure wearing bikini in beach is last issue. I dont say this because personaly believe in hijab , my sister who dont wear like me and dont believe in hijab has same ideas too.my sister and I can enjoy sea, we have no problem.
in the end I should say instead of puting our finger on islam and Quran ,we should open our eyes and see what is the real problems out there,yes we should save women but not from Quran and islam but from their theocratic goverments and western democracies who hiddenly (Iran)and openly(saudi arabia)support these goverments.
dear Inal again thank you. many kisses and a big hug from me.
@mariam from Iran- you are most welcomed- these are the things that worry women- in Iran, and anywhere else where we may live that negates us as people. There is a whole series, as it publishes them I will link them. These are morw worth of our discussions, I believe.
And thank you.
@mariam from iran,
i think you made a very eloquent point. Hijab – or not- should be the least issue. It is not who we are as women, it is only what we wear.
I have seen documentaries about the prostitute mothers in Iran and my heart was broken. They are only trying their best to survive.
I hope that you can gain some ground in fighting for your cause.
@Sara MD
Thank you for exercising your choice again to generalize and insult-its refreshing to know that its your only mode of communication.
I don’t, never have, never will sweep under the rug what happens in the world- East or West. All I have asked if for balance where there is an admission that not all Westerners are what you say they are. But you insist, so I won’t go against your nature.
If in fact you are half Iranian, then a conversation with Mariam of Iran might enlighten you further on what is really happening in Iran- since you will believe anything that is in Western media as the reality of the West- but will not put enough credence on what is filmed in Iran by Iranians- interesting.
@Anebu
“Ok love, I’ll take your unskilled ones for a practice run and you can keep the schooled ones with all the STD’s…enjoy!”
I thought we were having a civilized discussion. What’s with the scare tactics? Running out of other arguments? There’s plenty of ways to never come close to STDs or unwanted pregnancies while enjoying a rich sexual experience. To let you in on a secret: my husband and I were 42 and 36 respectively when we wed, with many notches on our belt but no STDs or unwanted pregnancies behind us. You really ought to know better.
“But I agree with you about the virgins. I really do see a certain beauty in virgins marrying and experiencing their first sexual experience together. They should definitely have some sex ed and manuals beforehand which should provide ample basic knowledge to get things started nicely. ”
That depends very much on a specific virgin. Most first sexual experiences for women is just something to get over. I do agree that sex ed is required and is helpful, but at some point you need to stop reading about driving and get behind the wheel.
“There is no need for sex before marriage; your comments suggest this is better than virginity.”
Yes, they do suggest that. Whether there is such a need or not is a matter of opinion.
“But from my Muslim perspective this is damaging to society given that fornication is considered sinful in Islam. Good sex is great but it is not worth being sinful for. ”
Luckily, not being a member of your club does not commit me to the same opinion. From my non-Muslim perspective it’s just fine. We can agree to disagree. I do not allow society to have any claim on my body and what I choose to do with it.
“And it is not the be-all and end-all to a successful marriage. Many have it and then lose it due to ill health, what then? The marriage had better be based on something a hell of a lot more sustainable otherwise it’s over.”
Oh don’t be silly! What’s marriage got to do with good sex? THAT is much better and easier enjoyed outside the marriage! Good sex in a marriage is somewhat important but is only a minor consideration compared to everything else.
By way of another plug for sex ed I will say this: God or nature, whatever you want to call it, have played an evil joke on women when it comes to sexual enjoyment, because they have NOT made sexual satisfaction a mandatory component of the biological imperative for the human female. In simple terms, it means that a woman is able to successfully fulfill her procreative duties – that is, conceive, carry and deliver healthy children – without ever experiencing a single tinge of delight in the bedroom in her life. Absence of orgasm for women does not preclude successful procreation.
A man, on the other hand, has an orgasm every time he participates in baby-making. Would men be as motivated to “spread their seed” if there wasn’t an awesome sensation for them in the act of spreading, every single time? Male sexual satisfaction is practically guaranteed because men need to feel good to have sex. For women, enjoyment and procreation run on parallel tracks. One does not require another. We can very easily conceive and deliver babies while remaining sexually numb.
And because it is not second nature to us, women need to be taught and trained (in my opinion) to feel entitled to have a good time in bed (just like a man!), and to know what it takes to get them there. There is no way for women to get to that point except learning and experimentation. Because men have a good time, every single time. Women, on the other hand, need the skills and the knowledge.
@Inal
From the very first post here, I said I was talking in general and then I had repeated this again. So please try to understand.
Yes I know women in Iran have issues but Iran is not the only country … they are many places in the world where women are having difficulties. But why do you insist on Iran? I wonder. What is it that I can do for the women of Iran? I do understand the problems there and Mariam has highlighted it well.
“since you will believe anything that is in Western media as the reality of the West- but will not put enough credence on what is filmed in Iran by Iranians- interesting”
What are you getting at? My views are not only from the media but you ignored where my opinions are coming from. I only mentioned what I did about the film because you said that all those people who told me things are ALL wrong. I cannot see how. If you are interested I can give you more links on the plight of women in Iran as well as anywhere in the world.
@Laylah
You have expressed the same thoughts that I have in your blog. I enjoyed it.
Sarah MD…your entitled to your opinion…just like Im entitled to mine. And I dont argue…just state my opinion…so please stop trying to shut people down just because you dont see a point other than your own .
@Sarah MD
My insistence in Iran is quite simple- These women have gone PASSED the conversation of hijab. That is not the most important issue to them. In fact it is really at the bottom of the pile when you see them expressing their views.
What can you do for those women in Iran? You could give less relevance to Hijab, and weigh in the over arching issues of women in Iran and the rest of the world.
And I said “Yes they can be all wrong” when referring to you friends and family. “Can be” and “Are All wrong” are two different statements. “Can be” states a possibility, “are all wrong” does not. And showing that there are large sectors of the population that are not like your friends and family stated is an indication that the possibility Does exist that not everyone is what many say Westerners are.
I am trying to understand what you are saying, and I am asking you try to understand what I am saying. Is all.
Sarah MD
Perhaps your friends and family told you about the “wanton Westerners” because their idea of modest dress is far different from the West. We are not being slutty or immodest if we wear jeans and a T shirt. By definition jeans fit the body. Sometimes it can be very snuggly and other times (like mine) fairly loosely but the outline of the body and two legs will still be showing regardless of fit. THAT is NOT immodest here. If your family and friends think so then they should adapt their thoughts to the country they live in and realize for the West it is not immodest.
The clothes you talk about, (mini skirts, breast revealing tops etc.) do exist, but that is almost exclusively the domain of the teenager/young person. Once a woman passes a certain age, that sort of dress is no longer the norm and for many it was never the norm in the first place. They grow up, realize they don’t have to flaunt it to be alluring, stop experimenting and get on with life. Also your family must not be looking around very much because there are many girls/women who choose NOT to wear those skimpy clothes. It is a conscious choice. Fashions come and go. Skirt hems go up and down. When I was a pre teenager(I’m giving away my age here) the style was maxi skirts…skirts all the way to the floor. That was thought of as really cool. right after that and before that? Mini skirts.
i don’t think I am living under a rock here in the Wild West and for the most part outside of young women who are still figuring things out women dress modestly (or modestly for the West) If you consider medium length shorts, sandals and a tee shirt immodest then that is going to continually vex your relatives because in the summer that is pretty much the norm here.
If you are talking about shorts so short butt cheeks hang out, boobs thrust out of tops spike heels and tons of makeup then I would have to say that your family is hanging out in the wrong place or with the wrong generation. Most women past the early twenties have too much self consciousness to even wear that sort of stuff. they feel uncomfortable in such outfits and wouldn’t be caught dead at the grocery store in such a thing. Believe it or not even here in the West we generally have limits.
If wearing full covering is the only way to modesty then for your family and friends will find immodesty wherever they look.
It’s still way too cold here for any hint of immodest summer finery…
Let alone bikinis…
😦
Oby….YOU WEAR JEANS???!!!
You do realize that now everyone will KNOW that you have two legs????
@Sarah MD,
“And what is wrong with a husband not wanting others to look at his wife or a father his daughter? Or do you think that it is better a woman becomes a show piece for everyone to see?’
There is plenty wrong with the first statement.It assumes that a woman’s existence can only be at the satisfaction of her husband and father. It smacks of ownership, just like everyone else keep telling you. I guess you asking that question shows exactly why you never understand anything people tell you regarding this topic. You already started with a bad assumption.
The second question is even worse. In that question you reduced women to objects. Women should not have to live their life thinking they are “show PIECES”. That emphasis is the work of a twisted mind that denigrate women. I guess you have bought into the men are WOLFs concept that Africana keeps repeating here. That is only true if you raise them with the uncivil mentality that you and her are supporting. Men can behave in a healthy way towards the other sex, if civility is the objective rather than forcing women into a certain type of dress. Just contrast how women are treated in the West where they can wear Bikini’s in beaches without being harassed, while in a place like Saudi they can cover from head to toe in a dark shield and still get harassed regularly. Your ideas do not pass the logic test and have the additional problem of being proven wrong in practicality.
Sandy…
LOL! I know…how immodest of me to have people realize that I am normal and show off my “tempting” form!!!!
@Laylah,
I read your post and to tell you the truth I found it full of wrong assumptions which seemed to be designed to fit the conclusion that that women should cover. These are not new arguments, they have been around ever since Hijabi’s started designing arguments to explain how Hihab liberates women.
I do not think your article did address my question about this guilt issue you laid on women who dress in miniskirts(i.e.calling it stupid).
Good attempt, but same old weak arguments.
SarahMD YOU said -Come to think of it, if men made the rules, they would NOT tell the women to cover up, they would say that walking exposed is the best thing according to the “rights”.
and I said:
Actually no, they would not say that because they do not want their PROPERTY being looked at by anyone but themselves. Men can be very jealous creatures
And then you answer with THIS?:
‘And what is wrong with a husband not wanting others to look at his wife or a father his daughter? Or do you think that it is better a woman becomes a show piece for everyone to see?’
So what is the TRUTH? Did men then make this rule or not?
And, again, there is a line. There is a difference between looking, noticing, glancing and glaring lustfully. I pity the fool that would get caught staring lustfully or inappropriately at me. He would end up embarassed as all hell and it wouldn’t be my husband or father that would handle it, it would be ME! THAT is what I think puts an end to that behaviour more than any rule telling women to cover it up. Add laws against sexual harassment to the mix and there you have it, women’s freedom!
Also Sarah MD…unless a book descends directly down from heaven into the hands of a prophet…witnessed by more than just him…then its just a book hot off the presses in some publishing company.
Once again…the message may be divine…the book is not.
“And what is wrong with a husband not wanting others to look at his wife or a father his daughter? Or do you think that it is better a woman becomes a show piece for everyone to see?’
These are the only two choices??? And you think the West objectifie women????
MoQ, *It assumes that a woman’s existence can only be at the satisfaction of her husband and father. It smacks of ownership, just like everyone else keep telling you. I guess you asking that question shows exactly why you never understand anything people tell you regarding this topic. You already started with a bad assumption.
The second question is even worse. In that question you reduced women to objects. Women should not have to live their life thinking they are “show PIECES”. That emphasis is the work of a twisted mind that denigrate women. I guess you have bought into the men are WOLFs concept that Africana keeps repeating here.*
Brilliant comment.
I could have written it myself.
Actually i did sort of write the same thing but you put it more succinctly.
@ sarah:
“I have always liked the hadith that the woman who was of ‘low virtue’ (maybe a prostitute) saw a thirsty dog and gave her water with her shoe. All her bad deeds were forgiven for doing this act of kindness. This is the merciful God I personally believe in.”
“So, it is a real shame the vitriolic and judgemental tone of some of these comments. While I do cover, there are far more important issues in the world.”
Thank you, Sarah. Beautifully said.
Onigiri: interesting note about the alternative view of sexuality in the East.
@ africana:
For anyone who may not truly understand what Muslims who give any opinion not in line with tradtional authority are up against, africana just gave the perfect example.
We are corrupters, mockers of our religion and well… as she insinuated, not real Muslims – evil in fact.
God, is my judge, dear. Don’t you even attempt! Istaghfir Allah!
I’m done with this thread.
Maggie, I DO know what you are up against but what I think many of us non Muslims are wondering is why you would choose to belong to such a group. If you say that you are not a part of THAT group then are you saying that they are not Muslims?
I thought this article was interesting.
The picture made me wonder why a six year old needs to be wearing hijab. Six year olds apparently have “sex appeal” and need to be protected from the eyes of men?
“The niqab is a constant reminder to do the right thing. It’s God-consciousness in my face.”
HUH?
“The more clothes you wear, the closer you are to God,” Ms. Muhammad said.
Really? Why?
“Menahal Begawala, 28, was raised in Queens, the daughter of Indian immigrants. She began covering her face at age 19. “I suppose there is some part of me that wants to make a statement, ‘I am a Muslim,’ ” she said.”
Interesting. That reminds me of people who are goth. They dress as they do as a form of identity and rebellion.
@Onigiri,
Very interesting article. I was surprised that the number of American muslims was guestimated as between 3 to 7 million – quite a large disparity there!
And it seems to me that a journalist always wants to go to those who are viewed as more extreme due to their dress. Perhaps it is more as the woman said “I want to make a statement.”
@MoQ
I didnt’ mean wearing a miniskirt in general is stupid. What I wanted to say is that if a woman wears it ONLY to somehow try to make progress to womens rights, then yes I think that’s stupid and won’t do any good.
@Laylah,
“What I wanted to say is that if a woman wears it ONLY to somehow try to make progress to womens rights, then yes I think that’s stupid and won’t do any good.”
And thinking that Hijab liberates women is smarter in what way exactly?
You just replaced one bad idea with another.
Most women that wear mini skirts, wear them for a different purpose than making progress for women’s rights. You’re putting too much emphasis on clothes to achieve big goals 🙂
Coolred
I am not trying to shut you up. (I know I can’t and wont do that), but I did not want to drag that certain topic into the discussion as it is out of the subject matter. Suffice to say that when you were talking about the Quran, you were certainly talking about the MESSAGE, so THAT IS divine. And I found it offending in the manner you were belittling it. You talk about derogatory words but even if you challenge us to bring out any derogatoray words that you may or may not have used, your manner of talking takes place of those words. So in a way it is the same thing.
“Once again…the message may be divine…the book is not”
I don’t know if you are arguing to be right. If the water in the glass is hot, the glass gets hot too. When all the messages in the Book are divine, that makes the Book divine, because when we talk about the Book, we are referring to the Messages in it not the name of the press or the designs of the Book.
Inal
I understand what you are saying about Iran but it was not my topic of discussion. I was talking about the western women. When those women say that muslim men control the women, the same applies in the west but in the opposite way. That was my subject.
Oby
I understand how the western women dress and their casual attire is Tshirt and jeans. It is the naked women on the billboard that friends and relatives talk about. Everywhere you face, you see them.
MoQ
That is precisley y point. Why are women reduced to sex objects in the west. Men not wanting other to look at their women is not reducing them to sex objects. It is an honor to be protected, it is not possession. It is honor that the family’s reputation is not tainted. In no way it reduces a woman’s status.
“Just contrast how women are treated in the West where they can wear Bikini’s in beaches without being harassed,”
You think that only being harassed is the objective in covering? How about what goes on in the sick minds of men. Not all men are decent. And besides that seeing bikini clad women day in and day out is just makes it so normal that there is nothing to actually “see”.
” Your ideas do not pass the logic test and have the additional problem of being proven wrong in practicality”
And to what standard do you compare “logic” – anyone who agrees with you?
Lynn
God said to lower your gaze. He said that to MEN first and then to WOMEN. God said to cover up.
@Sarah MD,
“That is precisley y point. Why are women reduced to sex objects in the west. Men not wanting other to look at their women is not reducing them to sex objects.”
I am from teh middle east and I lived in the West. Women are more thought of as a sex object in the ME than in the West. It is not even close. The entire idea of covering women is treating them like an object of lust. I am still hoping that there is some remote chance that you can open your mind so you can see a simple fact like that one.
Regarding the rest of the comment, sorry to be blunt here. The idea of having a family honor/reputation attached to the purity of a family member’s vagina is another twisted idea that devalues women and treat them as nothing less than a sex object. The woman’s body and what she does with it becomes the property not just of the father or the husband, but the extended clan. It is a very sick concept.
MoQ
Then why do women walk half naked and display their bodies on ads, mags, movies …etc if they are not seen as sex objects. Why do they have to prove all the time that they are desirable. Why do they need to make themselves so cheap by exhibiting themselves like that. And its not teenagers or pre-teens as someone said above. I see western women dress like that even in ME and they are not teenagers. I see them dress for work “officially”. I see with my eyes not second hand info, women dress aas if they are going to a dance party to an office and flirt with people and position them in such a way so that they show all their sexuailty – in the office. That is the freedom. Don’t tell me it is HER choice. Don’t tell me if its their “right” to wear what they want. , Why make themselves so cheap.We protect the environment from pollution then why not protect the society from such filth too.
It is not about men protecting just the women, its the whole family, even kids and all other members of the family; its not only private parts protection. Its only twisted idea to someone who thinks that women can behave and dress cheaply and that is ok.
Protecting something/one does not mean possession. That is strange logic. You can protect the enviironment but you do not possess it, You can protect a child from the road but you do not possess the child, you can care and protect stray dogs/cats but you do not possess them. You can protect your family and honor them. Its a noble thing to do. It is not a very sick concept. Who would see it as sick: unless the society you live in teaches you that.
@Sarah MD,
Your comment is full of none sense. It will take a long reply to cover all of the issues you have in it.There it is amazing that so much dribble camped in such small space and shows you have lack of some basic knowledge. But I will try to cover as much as possible:
– “Then why do women walk half naked and display their bodies on ads, mags, movies …etc”
A woman choosing to display her body is not objectifying her.It is just that simple. You are the one that objectifies her by thinking she is slutty for making choices. Think about it this one a little!!!!
– “Why do they have to prove all the time that they are desirable.”
Why is this a sore point for you. If a woman wants to be desirable, what is wrong with that? Are you jealous of them? Sorry,but you have a fixation with this, there must be some reason for it.
– “Why do they need to make themselves so cheap by exhibiting themselves like that.”
Attaching the title of cheap on human beings is just sick.This is your problem not theirs. Again,Think about this one a little!!!
– “I see with my eyes not second hand info, women dress aas if they are going to a dance party to an office and flirt with people and position them in such a way so that they show all their sexuailty”
And this has something to do with you in what way exactly? By the way that shows that women are interested in being more attractive to men in the ME than in the West. Because in work environments in the West women do not feel they have to dress provocatively and they typically dress professionally.
– “Don’t tell me it is HER choice. Don’t tell me if its their. “right” to wear what they want. …… We protect the environment from pollution then why not protect the society from such filth too. ”
I am about to tell you that. YES IT IS HER RIGHT. You are just a self-righteous witch that feels she should go around judging others. Sorry, but you earned this. If society needs to be protected, it should be protected from people like you, who want to enforce their morals on others.
-“You can protect your family and honor them. Its a noble thing to do.”
It is not noble thing to protect women by forcing them into covering. It is not noble to lay guilt on women for showing a piece of skin and make them feel that they have dishonored their family. It is not noble to force your wishes on an adult family member and claim it is for their own protection etc….. Your analogies fall flat.
As a woman, as a Muslim, I agree with everything MoQ has written in his last two posts- andI thank you for writing it.
SarahMD,
I live in Saudi, and I have NEVER felt so objectified as I have living here. It absolutely IS my right not to be a “posession” of the men in my family, and any “protection” they want to offer should not include controlling me. This has to do with clothing and everything else as well.
And women in the West DO have the right to choose what they want to wear- and while I don’t always agree with their choices- so what?? Everyone doesn’t always agree with my choices either. The point is- we have the right to our choices.
You assume alot by showing youeself to be always right and all others are stupid idiots. This arrogant atitude makes you look small.
“A woman choosing to display her body is not objectifying her”
Here you go again saying its her choice. By saying that, you make it seem like women have such small brain that she chooses to display herself in such a manner. I mean even if its “ok” in her standard, there is no shame. If that is not there then really its like losing sense.
“Why is this a sore point for you. If a woman wants to be desirable, what is wrong with that?”
SO are you saying that a woman NEEDS to show this to men? That she is not enough as she is? She needs to go to great lengths to show desirabilty? By being natural she is nothing?
“Attaching the title of cheap on human beings is just sick.This is your problem not theirs”
Again its their choice, their rights, their problems. We live in the same environment and have enough pollution as it is. You think about it a little. Men like you it seem to enjoy looking at women dressed less than cave women and its ok with you men. Obviously! Then why do you make a big deal when Mulim men want women to dress up. Isn’t it the women’s choice, her right, her problem? IF women do not want to cover, she will not. But to undress that is not right. Think about it a little.
“I am about to tell you that. YES IT IS HER RIGHT”
Just a cliched response and was expecting that. Becuase you people always talk about right when it comes to yourself but when it comes to muslims all their rights are washed away. Double standards. Calling names is not the way to talk. it only shows more about you. Ask coolred. She knows.
“If society needs to be protected, it should be protected from people like you, who want to enforce their morals on others.”
What a twisted warped mind.
“It is not noble thing to protect women by forcing them into covering.”
I have said all along that forcing is not right. You can read it above. I am talking about women who want to cover. Where is her right? Why stop her? Why talk about her?
You comment on nobilty and saying my anologies falls apart. In what way? You make some statements of your own and say my anologies fell apart? IF you cannot come up with something then just do not say anything. That is better for you.
I don’t even want to bother replying to you because as a typical man, you want women to undress.
I expect Aafke to jump to your defence as she always does. Waiting …
I’m not Aafke, and I don’t have much time but I’ll go first.
First of all, MoQ said very little of what you just tried to attribute to him. It’s sort of classic- you rephrase/reinterpret what he said- and then you disagree with it.
In short- yes it is a woman’s choice to look desirable if she wants. Those are her values, her choice. And most of us already realize that women (as well as men) are multi-faceted. If she choses to look desirable that doesnt mean she isn’t other things like intelligent, thoughtful or kind as well. She does not become “only” a body because she likes to look that way- and MoQ never implied that in any way.
Nor did MoQ ever say whether he wants women to undress or not. He said it should be the WOMAN”S choice.
What’s wrong with Muslim women covering??? NOTHING. As long as THEY chose it. There is a BIG problem if a man (husband, father) is choosing it for them. And that is what the discussion is about FORCING women to cover. And yes they do. It happens ALL THE TIME.
And yes some women choose to cover. That happens too- but that is not what is the problem.
@Sandy,Thank you…
@SarahMD.
Like Sandy said you make straw man arguments. Look it up under logical fallacies.
Here is an example”
“SO are you saying that a woman NEEDS to show this to men?”
No that is not what I said. I said.she can make a choice. You need to learn how to distinguish between need which is something forced on you and choice. They are quite different and really a child can understand teh difference.
This type of logic twisting is what makes you sound so silly in all your arguments.You have no sense.
“Then why do you make a big deal when Mulim men want women to dress up. Isn’t it the women’s choice, her right, her problem?”
You are contradicting yourself.In one sentence you say the Muslim men want this.In the next you say it is a women choice.This is exactly what is wrong with your thinking. You assume what a man want is what a woman want,you cannot seperate the 2 some how.
“Men like you it seem to enjoy looking at women dressed less than cave women and its ok with you men.”
Of course I enjoy seeing women.In your twisted mind that turns into immorality,but for normal human beings it is natural. What will be immoral is if I act in a way that make women uncomfortable or treat them in a manner that make them feel denigrated.Men who are civilized know how to act in a responsible manner.Something you do not seem to grasp yet. All what you see is WOLFs 🙂
“I have said all along that forcing is not right.”
When you say society needs to be protected from such women that means you want to force your morals on them.I am not making this up, these are your words.
“am talking about women who want to cover. Where is her right?”
Look up all my comments on this blog and find one place where I said women do not have the right to cover.You won’t find it,because my position has always been clear.Women should have the right to make that decision on their own. You are the one who is ranting about protecting society from women that do not cover to your standards.
@Sarah MD,
Oh I forgot to respond to this:
“Calling names is not the way to talk. it only shows more about you.”
I called you a Self Righteous Witch. I guess I am doing it again. This is not simple name calling.You have been acting self righteous since you started commenting here. You have earned this with honor for great comments like comparing women that do not fit to your standard to social pollution. For calling on society to be protected from them, etc.
Only a self righteous and wicked person comes up with stuff like that.
Cheers….
MOQ
You seem to see my thinking as seneless because you view things differently and same for me.
I have not “forced” women to cover, what I am saying WHY do they NEED to do that? Do you understand? Let it be her choice, her right, her whatever, buy why does she stoop so low to get attention and make herself cheap.
Muslim men clearly want women to cover. And women who have sense of shame, also want to cover. You, on the other hand clearly would not mind your wife walking naked on the roads along with your daughters, sisters and mothers. That is all ok since they chose to walk naked and so it does not matter. And other men who enjoy watching women, can watch your wife, daughters, mother and sisters since men have rights to watch too. And you will have nothing to say to them.
You can call me whatever name you like, it does not bother me.
These are signs of Last day as was predicted. When someone says the things that Islam asks us, it will be seen as wicked and bad. The ones who follow the right way will seem strange and the ones who fall back are seen as right.
How clear it is and I am sure many see the signs. And many will twist it to suit them.
@Sarah MD,
“You, on the other hand clearly would not mind your wife walking naked on the roads along with your daughters, sisters and mothers.”
You BITCH. Starting assaults on family on a blog is LOW.
I live my life with a well defined set of morals and I will not attack your family.
What I do in my own life and my family is none of your business. I will leave it at this for now.But if you involve my personal life in this again you will receive a less civilized response than this one in the future.
It is ok for you to call me names and threaten me and you accept women’s lack of clothes but when it comes to female members of your family, you show the reality. And I knew that it will touch a nerve.
Everyone here can see that now. See, people, how he can call me names and that is ALL ok and he thinks that it is not personal. He himself said that he enjoys watching women but he cannot bear it when it comes to his family female members. I, at least, respect that he HONORS his family and PROTECTED them here for all to see. I really do. That is the NOBLE thing to do. That makes a man a man. I rest my case.
What is this straw man argument everybody keeps talking about?
I keep seeing it all the time lately in comments, by different people.
@Sarah MD,
When you act self righteous and people point out that fact it is not name calling. It is putting a description on an action. You called women Sluts,.Pollution, etc.
You also called for the wicked action of protecting society from these women.
Now regarding the threat. I was pointing to you that if you involve my family and personal life in discussions here I will not look at it kindly and will respond in kind. Learn not to go that low and you will not hear responses like that. It is another choice you should make.I hope you choose wisely….
@Aafke-Art,
A Strawman argument is one where a person makes a position you never took then attack it.Basically it is a cowardly way to try to win a debate by attaching a bad position to you that is easy to attack. Then they go ahead and attack it to make you look bad.
If you read Sarah MD’s arguments against me you see them scattered all over her arguments. Like the assumption that I want women to uncover, when I never said that. Or I want my family to walk naked. etc.
There are many logical fallacies that Sarah MD makes in her arguments. If you get some free time google “Logical Fallacies” and get the list then go through one of her commends and see how many you can spot 🙂
MoQ
Anyway you proved my point that I was trying to make, when you quickly defended your family … so I really do not have anything more to say.
Besides I did not call women all those names, but their method of dressing is what I was referring to. You may look at it like self righteous or it may seem like that to you. As I said before we see things from different angles. I was not aware that protecting the society was a wicked act. Very bad of me!
BTW, I did not insult your family or assult in anyway; I mentioned them to make you realise my point.
MOQ
You are giving false statements about what I said.
and by doing that you are making a good live example of straw man agrument. How clever. 🙂
“Of course I enjoy seeing women”
Those were your words.
“Or I want my family to walk naked”
I did not say that. Anyone can read what I said and will understand. Even a child.
But MoQ is the ”Real Man”!
He is intelligent, he stands up for others, he is the first in this thread (as I remember) Who condensed it down and clarified that what women wear is not the point, but having the freedom to choose is what matters really.
MoQ understands freedom, and he stands up for women, even those which aren’t his family.
I think MoQ is a REAL MAN!
While SarahMD want’s a witchhunt to ”protect” society from… what?
Freedom? Choice? Women Thinking for Themselves? Protection against uncivilised men?
She is a fascist. Scary woman. I am not going into her mentally deficient comments.
Nobody can talk to SaraMD; she is totally brainwashed and talks only what men think and want. There is some credence in the doubts other people have cast as to her gender. Any man can name himself Sara and pretend to be a woman. And actually there have been men before who did so, they think that if they pose as a woman it will seem more convincing, ”If a woman advocated segregation and covering she must be right”
”If a woman declares all women in the west to be sluts and walk around naked to attract men she must be right, because she is also a woman”
MoQ, Thanks for the explanation. I will read up on it.
$Sarah MD,
“Anyway you proved my point that I was trying to make, when you quickly defended your family;”
No the only point you proved is the you are a low person.
SarahMD
You have not proved anything about MoQ. AT ALL. Nor do you seem capable of responding to anything that he has actually said. In fact, it seems, either you can’t or won’t understand a thing he says.
I think everyone here can see that. You seem to live in a black and white world where how people dress is all that is relevant to understand their charactar. And where a man’s choice on whether or not to “protect” his women- by forcing them to dress in a certain manner is somehow the only choice that matters.
As a member of “society” I certainly think it can do without your idea of “protection”.
@Aafke,
I think you can go back to your pirate temple now that you have done your work. You are only good in copying comments from others, name calling and defending if its against muslims. That is your strong point. You have nothing to argue on. Who knows you are even a human. You could be an unicorn. But anyway I was expecting you….
@MoQ,
See everyone feels the need to protect their family and that is quite normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Muslim men do the same to protect their family. My point was clear and you know it. If you think or feel that I insulted you or your family then, I apologise. That was not my intention.
And if anyone one is low, it is those who defend the cheapness displayed and name calling. Its not even childish.
@Sandy
I don’t know if you can understand the point I am trying to make. I am not forcing people to do what they want. But you as a woman must be feeling ashamed to see women dress without shame. If not, then, I regret that.
You talk about generalising, but you are the one saying men force women to cover. Not all men do that. Men want to protect their families same as MoQ did. That is very natural. Anyone would do that. If you can’t see that then I really think you are lost or do not want to see it.
No one would like to see a member of the family dressed in “sluty” way. As I said before we can educate, advice, inform, tell but thats all we can do. We cannot force someone. If everyone allows their children to go out in the streets dressed inappropraitely then what will be the harm? Does it do good to the society?
As a parent, would you allow that? I don’t think so. So please do not tell me about black and white. And if you prefer to have to have people dressed like that in your neighborhood and you find it comfortable to allow your kids to hang out, then that is your problem. But you don’t want that, then I do not really understand why you do not want your environment to be protected.
Am I missing something here? Or is it only me who feels that the environment needs to be clean for our kids.
@Sarah MD,
I think Sandy answered your argument well even before you wrote it. I hope you can comprehend what she wrote.
Your understanding of concepts like honor,protection of family, etc. are superficial and you attach them to a piece of cloth.
@Aafke,
Thank ye, be seein’ ye at th’ temple far a barrel o’the ol rhum
OOPS I guess i was typing at the same time you did. I guess I have my answer.You did not comprehend what Sandy said. Amazing!!!!
Ahoy, MoQ, me darlin’ I will sail as fast as th’ wind carries me and dock me ships at th’ harbour, I will be carrying a large barrel o’ th’ best tipple o’ rum, and be wearing th’ skimpyest o’ pirate skirts
😈
My idea of “shame” and yours are very different. I know a person is much more than their clothing choices and that my standard of modesty is not necessarily shared by everyone. Do I agree with what everyone wears and chooses to show? No. But the point is I don’t have to agree. It is their right- and I will treat them with respect regardless.
You are the one that keeps saying things about men protecting their family- in terms of telling the women what to wear. What we are talking about on this thread is men forcing women to cover. You yourself have talked about how men do this to protect their family because men are wolves.
What you seem to be saying is-
“If men are making women cover in order to protect their families- then that is not the same thing as making women cover.” Well, yes it is.
Oh, and no- this sort of “protection” is not at ALL what MoQ was talking about. Just trust me on that. You seem to have NO idea what he is saying.
And finally- though it is true that all men don’t force women to cover- it is not just about men and their families. There are COUNTRIES where the men make laws that FORCE women to cover- and have religious police run around telling women to cover. I know this from first hand experience.
And you can think me as low as you like- I do not defend what I view as “cheap”- but I do defend the woman’s choice to wear it if she so choses.
I think men “protecting” THEIR women- by telling them how to dress is more a pollutant on the environment that women wearing something that I view as too revealing.
As a parent I do set standards of appropriatness. But that is not the discussion. Once they grow up- it is their choice. Though I still give my opinion (that’s all it is) when I feel it is warrented.
@Sarah MD you said to MoQ:
Muslim men clearly want women to cover. And women who have sense of shame, also want to cover. You, on the other hand clearly would not mind your wife walking naked on the roads along with your daughters, sisters and mothers. That is all ok since they chose to walk naked and so it does not matter. And other men who enjoy watching women, can watch your wife, daughters, mother and sisters since men have rights to watch too. And you will have nothing to say to them.”
And then you said:
‘“Or I want my family to walk naked”
I did not say that. Anyone can read what I said and will understand. Even a child.’
You also said:
“Besides I did not call women all those names, but their method of dressing is what I was referring to. You may look at it like self righteous or it may seem like that to you. As I said before we see things from different angles. I was not aware that protecting the society was a wicked act. Very bad of me!”
Where before you had said:
“Why do women agree to do this unless its for the pay or to boost their self-confidence or they are just plain slutty. I mean any women who has some self-respect will not allow her body to be displayed in such a manner. ”
And before that…
“I wonder if they approve of their daughters walking the streets half-naked. If not then why do they not comment on that and voice their opinion? ”
And…
” I am just against their slutty fashion sense and general behaviour, (gererally) and the way advertising world uses women in sexual tones.”
This is what you said- MoQ’s words were mild, mark of gentleman, another Saudi would want you executed for that kind of statement…
And no bringing in his family to prove a point is NOT done, NOT tolerated in any society!
There is a song many English may be familiar with, and what you should do right about, “Slip, sliding away…”
Also Sara MD
Like Native American Indians would say, “you speak with forked tongue” no amount of back pedaling on your part will help you- you ARE a SNAKE in the grass!
Utterly shameless, and like Sandy pointed out “black and white”…
You have taken things to an all time low Sarah MD…
Agree with Inal.
Obviously.
@Sandy
“You yourself have talked about how men do this to protect their family because men are wolves.”
Where did I say this?
I think you are assuming that I am talking about head cover. no, I am talking about badly dressed people.
“Oh, and no- this sort of “protection” is not at ALL what MoQ was talking about. Just trust me on that. You seem to have NO idea what he is saying.”
Again there is misunderstanding. Everyone one of us have a need to protect family, wouldn’t you agree? (leave aside hijab), Western moms would not allow their daughters to leave the house wearing nothing. That is understandable. Don’t parents have right to instill good morals in the west? or do they say, its her right so let her dress as she pleases. I am just asking this general question. Is that what happens? But I am sure that parents do tell their children and do educate them on what is proper.
MoQ’s sudden name calling anger demonstrated what I was talking about at that point. That men, in any country, in any religion have that nature to defend and protect family. Maybe they have different way of exercising it.
“You seem to have NO idea what he is saying”
Why don’t you then tell me what he is saying. I understood what he was saying. He is thinking that I am talking about head covering.
“And you can think me as low as you like”
I never thought of you as low – never. I was referring to others.
@Inal
Calling a woman “Bitch” is a mark of a gentleman. By whose standards? Yours? Another twisted words.
The kind of things that are said here about Islam, the Book and the Prophet is nothing to you. Right? But my statement of dresssing decently is enough to execute me. Strange indeed!
I know what I said to MoQ and he knows it. Maybe there was some misunderstanding but the need to protect family was what I was talking about and it wa proved well enough.
You can call me what you like. It shows your character.
“i’m not really participating as i think there’s far too much hot headedness and failure to read each other’s’ comments going one in here. i did want to say that sarahMD has made a very good point when she speaks of protecting children from adult nudity.
exposing children to sexualised images is, in my view, a type of child abuse and it seems that a woam’s right to appear naked trumps that of the child to be exposed to what in the past would have been called pornography.
ROTFL!
While looking up ”strawman argument” I found this site:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
I think everybody should read this, it is very interesting. I am going to play with it.
Taking a comment by one commentator:
( I choose the first suitable one but I don’t feel anybody to be left out, I can do the same with many other comments here)
You assume alot by showing youeself to be always right and all others are stupid idiots. This arrogant atitude makes you look small.
The fallacy of Perssonal Attack or ”Ad hominem” : attacking the character of a person making a claim and therefore whatever the person argues is invalid.
This is a fallacy because the character or actions of a person have no bearing on the truth.
“A woman choosing to display her body is not objectifying her”
Here you go again saying its her choice. By saying that, you make it seem like women have such small brain that she chooses to display herself in such a manner. I mean even if its “ok” in her standard, there is no shame. If that is not there then really its like losing sense.
Straw man fallacy:
The writer is ignoring the other persons actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.
“Why is this a sore point for you. If a woman wants to be desirable, what is wrong with that?”
SO are you saying that a woman NEEDS to show this to men? That she is not enough as she is? She needs to go to great lengths to show desirabilty? By being natural she is nothing?
An other Straw man.
“Attaching the title of cheap on human beings is just sick.This is your problem not theirs”
Again its their choice, their rights, their problems. We live in the same environment and have enough pollution as it is. You think about it a little. Men like you it seem to enjoy looking at women dressed less than cave women and its ok with you men. Obviously! Then why do you make a big deal when Mulim men want women to dress up. Isn’t it the women’s choice, her right, her problem? IF women do not want to cover, she will not. But to undress that is not right. Think about it a little.
A whole list here, of course the straw man fallacy, then there is the Ad Hominem again, And another strawman.
“I am about to tell you that. YES IT IS HER RIGHT”
Just a cliched response and was expecting that. Becuase you people always talk about right when it comes to yourself but when it comes to muslims all their rights are washed away. Double standards. Calling names is not the way to talk. it only shows more about you. Ask coolred. She knows.
Ad Hominem, Straw man, Personal Attack, Strawman,
“It is not noble thing to protect women by forcing them into covering.”
I have said all along that forcing is not right. You can read it above. I am talking about women who want to cover. Where is her right? Why stop her? Why talk about her?
Well, that is just a lie. can’t see a fallacy in there. But the writer has implied many times a forced ”solution” to those pesky sluts who insist on wearing t-shirts.
You comment on nobilty and saying my anologies falls apart. In what way? You make some statements of your own and say my anologies fell apart? IF you cannot come up with something then just do not say anything. That is better for you.
I don’t even want to bother replying to you because as a typical man, you want women to undress.
Strawman and a completely muddled comment considering the writer wrote a very long reply.
And of course ending with an untrue attack, designed to support all her fallacies using the Fallacy of Personal Attack.
Really, ya’all should check out that site, it makes reading this thread way more interesting.
i thought some of you might be intersted in the below article which i found yesterday whilst taking a wee break from the maelstrom that is this thread.
it contains a section detailing the way in which people living at or around the time of prohet muhammed (salla Allahu Allhehi wa salam) understood the verses relating to hijab. these people would have been better placed than anyone else to understand the rulings and that is why contemporary scholars base some of their judgements on the statements od these companions.
furthermore,it is mentioned that there are various types of concealment and that foremost amongst these is that a woman remains in her home and only comes out for necessity. that being the case, it would only be right that her concealment in terms of dress should afford a level of privacy similar to that which the walls of her home provide (ie. proper hijab).
http://deoband.org/2010/06/hadith/hadith-commentary/the-hijab-of-women-and-its-boundaries/
Sarah MD…
Objectification of women is a MENTAL ATTITUDE. It is not about what a woman wears. The problem with Saudi is that NO MATTER WHAT A WOMAN WEARS the men are so obsessed with sex or rather the lack of it that it is in the forefront of their minds always. Does it not make sense to you that even when a woman is covered completely and a man is staring at her lasciviously he is imagining what she looks like without the abaya…what she feels like in his hands…what she smells like???? the covering does NOT change his thoughts and that is where sex lives…in the brain. He may not be able to see you physically which is even more exciting but he is imagining it and undressing you and all other women mentally. That is what we are trying to say. That the full covering has not made a society more pious…it has made men MORE open in their objectification of women. They feel that they can stare and touch breasts and bottoms with impunity. In the West that would get somebody a slap at the minimum and a full blown lawsuit for sexual harassment at the worst.
BECAUSE such emphasis has been placed on not thinking about sex it has become the thing men think about most…the society revolves around avoiding it and denying it. It is the huge unspoken elephant in the room.
The west in many ways has moved beyond that level. They place the responsibility for men’s feelings not on the women of society but on the men. It is a man’s job to handle his feelings. It is HIS responsibility to not act on any thoughts he might have. that is why women don’t have to hide under tons of clothing. WOMEN are not being held responsible for man’s thoughts or actions. that gives them the freedom to choose how they dress… and if they want they can dress fully covered OR they can dress less covered. Women are not having to protect themselves at every moment because by putting the responsibility on the MEN were it belongs it puts a protective invisible” barrier” around the woman. If the man does something he shouldn’t there are consequences for his actions. In KSA, the woman is responsible for the man’s natural thoughts and his actions have no consequences. What they have not understood is that until the men are held accountable, no matter how much they lock up women they will always be objectified.
All these hadith some commentators like to throw at those who think for themselves are also logical fallacies.
This line of fallacious argument combines a number of fallacies:
The fallacy of Appeal to Authority,
The fallacy of Appeal to Popularity
The fallacy of Appeal to Common Practise
And of course:
The fallacy of Appeal to Belief
Usually followed by another fallacy, The fallacy of Appeal to Fear.
Because these religious arguments which are in essence fallatious, are always backed up by fear.
Backed up with some threat.
For women who do not ”cover” the threat runs from rape (and it’s being the woman’s fault) to burning in hell. (also the woman’s fault)
@Sarah MD
“@Inal
Calling a woman “Bitch” is a mark of a gentleman. By whose standards? Yo
The kind of things that are said here about Islam, the Book and the Prophet is nothing to you. Right? But my statement of dresssing decently is enough to execute me. Strange indeed!
I know what I said to MoQ and he knows it. Maybe there was some misunderstanding but the need to protect family was what I was talking about and it wa proved well enough.
You can call me what you like. It shows your character. ”
Honey, you have already called us Half-Naked AND naked Sluts, Pollutants, Shameless, Ridiculous, and have judged even further by implying that Muslim women that don’t cover fall into that category too. And Muslim women that don’t cover to your specifications could also fall into that category. And even brought in someone’s unknown family members and made them naked too.
You didn’t consider me Muslim enough, so why appeal to me about the book, the prophet, and islam?
Dressing decently is what I know for a fact I do because I see my self in the mirror that doesn’t lie; I know ALL the others here are equally decently dressed. You have already executed us- what are you whining for now?
After calling us all that, you talk about character, about name calling?
@ Africana
An absolutely awful link I have neither the time or inclination to go point by point- but anytime men are using hadith to “interpret” the Quran to oppress women I’m not interested.
I couldn’t stomach much of it- but I had to laugh at the interpretation of Mohammed saying a woman could go out to relieve herself. OF COURSE SHE COULD. They all did. Was she supposed to go inside????They were all mixing in the community and in public life at that time…so….maybe the interpretation is something else???
Maybe it means, even if Umar is sitting out there on purpose watching to discern who’s relieving themselves it’s still ok to go anyway. You can’t be responsible for everything and if men are going to be making such a point of watching do your best then carry on.
If you do any kind of general reading of Hadith it is clear that it was, in general, a gender mixed community.
Oby , oh yeah, all this hijab and niqab is nothing but an erotic fetish.
It turns the Muslim men on big time.
It proclaims sex, even when you are only out to get some groceries, the attire just shouts SEX!
So everyone understands where a person like Africana gets her dark thoughts about women, all you have to look at the referenced link in her last comment. Pay attention to the referenced hadith. Here is an example:
“[2] It was narrated from Jabir (Allah be pleased with him), he said: “Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “The woman advances in the shape of Satan and retires in the shape of Satan.” Muslim transmitted it (1:129).”
If anyone thinks that these are the words of a prophet sent from God.No wonder they have such low opinion of women.
Anyone one who can think will understand how reading these types of article consistently and using them as reference for forming their opinion about the world, will eventually develop disregard for women as human beings.
@aafke,
i completely disagree, when combined with modesty of walk and manners-because let’s face it tottering around on killer heels whatever your other clothes look like is not proper hijab, the hijab sends out a strong message that a woman is religiously committed and will not entertain propositions.
@Africana
I actually “girded my loins” and read the whole thing…
*cough*, *swallowing*, This is what they teach the Taliban. This is why women if caught outside, without a male, are whipped, acid is thrown on their faces, their schools are burned down, etc.
Context is what is missing here, and everywhere when someone quotes someone, who said someone said, who said someone said, all the way down the line. What were the needs of women at that time? Do you know for a fact what those things were? It – is- all – heresay. Not one of the compilers was in the presence of the original few. They did not start collecting until AFTER the Prophet SAW died. Very convenient.
What you have demonstrated by linking this piece of garbage written by god knows who- is that not only, in your opinion and those therein, does a woman not have the right to be outside, even in her own home (which is nobody’s business) she is dictated where she has to be -in a closet!
They sure wrapped their pre-Islamic “live baby girl burials” in a neat little package didn’t they…’We won’t bury them- the Prophet said not to- but he didn’t say not to lock them up!’
I tell you if they applied themselves to the advancement of humanity the way they apply themselves to the internment of women- we would ALL be dead. The Taliban mission- death to all women…
Then they will figure out a few hadiths to ok scientific research for creating a cavity for male to male insemination and procreation!
Yause! Quick turn off your computer, disconnect your phone, go into your closet and ask someone to lock the door and throw away the key!
Ive often wondered why the Prophet didnt ask Umar…why the hell are you sitting on the hillside at night watching my woman…or any woman..going to pee? Something wrong with you?
Rather than tell Umar to mind his own damn business and lower his gaze…Umar complains..women are “corrected”.
Happens time and time again with hadith…they were busy undoing whatever perceived benefit the Quran gave women.
@ Saramd, you consistently repulse and insult. You cannot do that all the time. You cannot get all insulted yourself if another finally posts a comment naming you bad. Also it would have to be untrue before you can get insulted
@ Moq, you write excellent posts.
Also @ Inal and obi, good posts
@Aafke-art, you have discovered logical fallacies! LOL @ ur post!
@Search the web on Snap, u are right. All hadith invoke a society where women and men mingled. Where women did their own thing their own business. Women and men went to mosque. No barrier between them. Women divorced and remarried. Saudia is not even closely resembling this.
And I wonder why there is no hadith about not stalking women when they go to pee.
Sawah was a most beautiful woman. very beautiful. So the prophet really wanted her out of the way of other men. And covered. But you see even the prophet allowed her to relieve herself.
@ africana, you helped in showing that link. I cannot understand how women can read such lies about women and still think Islam is good and fair. I can understand men liking it. But no woman should like it.
as it is it this link will be of help to warn women who want to convert. It will change their minds about joining islam.
i have to agree with Save the Women…if a women considering converting to Islam…actually read through hadith pertaining to women first (as I did not)..she might get a whole different point of view about women in Islam.
Worth reading through just to have a well rounded look into Islam and the differences between men and women.
“Search the web on Snap”
– was me Sandy! I couldn’t figure out where my comment went- and that stupid pop-up -popped up and took my name!
Again. Ok I think I have it back.
STW: “I cannot understand how women can read such lies about women and still think Islam is good and fair. ”
coolred: “If a women considering converting to Islam…actually read through hadith pertaining to women first (as I did not)..she might get a whole different point of view about women in Islam.”
“Happens time and time again with hadith…they were busy undoing whatever perceived benefit the Quran gave women”
Okay, i said i was gone, but i just have to comment. That link was the most horrific thing i have ever read in my 20 years as a Muslim. And i didn’t think anything could beat Islam q & a.
This is the way it goes. We convert to Islam by reading Qur’an and some propaganda books.
I call them “propaganda” because, intermixed with all the useful info., they put in all the nice hadeeth and leave out all the nasty ones. Then once we’re in, thinking we have found a peaceful and elevated path to spiritual development, Qur’an takes a back seat and we are bombarded by all of these misogynistic hadeeth, tafseer and rulings presented as the real Islam.
We think for awhile we have to believe it all until one day many of us just ask ourselves, would a God “ar-rahman, ar-rahim” REALLY want a human being to live this way? Would a God who valued a woman as much as a man (according to Qur’an) leave so many loopholes for abuse?
I mean, locking someone in a dark room to pray until they die is abuse, africana.
Isn’t it benevolent that we can go out to pee or that we can lift our veils to keep from suffocating in a crowd? The sense of compassion overwhelms me.
Apparently, it wasn’t “necessary” for several young girls to leave a burning school in Mecca without their damn veils. Their honor was more important, right? Of course.
Congratulations, africana. You potentially just turned off several women reading this blog from accepting Islam. And i’m the corruptor?!
@sarahmd:
“These are signs of Last day as was predicted. When someone says the things that Islam asks us, it will be seen as wicked and bad. The ones who follow the right way will seem strange and the ones who fall back are seen as right.”
So what you are saying is, God gave us logic and the ability to discern, but then He will use that gift to deceive us into bad behavior. What kind a cruel, manipulative God is that?!
Do you not see the huge convenience of such a prophecy? Just in case people wake up and realize that all of these dubious hadeeth and scholarly rulings are garbage, just in case women start clamoring for their rights, we’ll make sure they are confused by saying their logic will lead them to evil.
Sorry, i’m sticking with Qur’an, which implores us time and time again to USE LOGIC TO DISCERN TRUTH!!
@ lynn:
Why do i stick with Islam? Because i refuse to let people hijack my faith. And i never said that i don’t consider these people Muslims – africana was insinuating that about Sandy and I – i just strongly disagree with their opinions.
Notice that africana bases all her arguments on scholars (who can interpret to their own benefit) and hadeeth (essentially a centuries old game of telephone) instead of Qur’an.
I mean, please. The most conservative Saudis i know don’t adhere to the dark garbage africana is promoting by posting that link. When Riyadh is looking good, things are really bad!
sarahmd:
Can you define your concept of “slutty” and “naked”? Is showing your forearm “naked”? Is not having a scarf “slutty”? I get the feeling you are referring to anyone who is not in your definition of perfect hijab with these two derogatory terms, but maybe i missed something. Are you referring to those women who wear truly revealing clothing (such as showing off their boobs and half their butt)? I still personally would not refer to them in either of those terms – just immodest.
Also, when, in your view does “protection” cross over into “control”? IS there a line or is it blurred? When hijab (and when i say hijab i am referring to extreme covering, including the scarf), is viewed as obligatory, then isn’t it the obligation of the men to impose it on the women of the household? Where is ANY personal choice then? This is CONTROL.
And this “protection” can easily be extended to exclude women from all sorts of activites such as education, work and social activities, as we have seen from africana’s link.
Do you agree with the concepts in africana’s link? Do you think it is best to be locked up in a dark room? Why or why not?
I acknowledge there are problems in the West, but you don’t seem to acknowledge at all that there are problems in Muslim countries. All men are just out to “protect” women in your view, and all women are wearing the scarf out of conviction. It’s not true. There are a lot of men out to control, just because they think they have the right, and there are a lot or women wearing the scarf just because it is imposed on them by family and society.
I understand protection, but why is the only source of protection extremely covering and locking up women? Why isn’t respect for women instilled for their protection?
@ coolred: Just curious, are you still Muslim? (You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal.) I’m just wondering if all you have been through has caused you to abandon it as your spiritual framework or has just caused you to view and practice differently? (If you would be more comfortable answering, you can email me privately at m.stimpleton@yahoo.com.) But don’t feel obligated either way. I would totally understand :).
Maggie, about converting, and what about the people you know?
I know a number of really nice Muslims, who gave me a very good impression about Islam. Until I kept on reading….
Good people can make any religion look good. But eventually it’s due to a lot of Intellectual Acrobatics go to the holy books and it’s a different story.
Africana, Waw! You found a link which goes even lower as IslamQA.
So let me see, the default position of women would be somewhere in the darkest dimmest shithole you can find in a house…
And for all eternity. Lifelong imprisonment. Put in a loo and she never has to see the sunlight again. And what is her crime?
She hasn’t got a penis.
Other cultures put people in life imprisonment because they are mass murderers or something but Muslims (like on the link) incarcerate them for not having been born with a penis.
I would think that if you were a Muslim you’d want to keep stuff like this secret from the civilized world…
Thanks for sharing Africana.
you have distorted what the article is saying. yes, closets are mentioned but only in regards to the offering of prayers. a woman is at liberty to occupy any room in her home.let us remeber that many of the arab houses were designed with an inner court yard thus mitigating against the need to actually step outside for fresh air. you would think that the article was calling for the imprisonment of women.
there are women who rarely step out of their homes (though nothing is preventing them from doing so) because they prefer to remain at home and taste the sweetness of frequent worship which once savoured is sublime and intoxicating. sayyid hossein nasr once described the woman’s seclusion and relative removal from the affairs of everday life as being like a sort of monasticism conducive to an elevated state of spirituality. the life of this world is deceptive and drags a person down into the mire.
[…] Posts Saudi Arabia: Taking the Body to the ExtremeSaudi Arabia: Distinctions between Dogs and ChildrenSaudi Arabia: Having to Prove LoyaltySaudi […]
“…..because they prefer to remain at home and taste the sweetness of frequent worship which once savoured is sublime and intoxicating.”
So Africanan, when will you experience this sweetness and get intoxicated. The world will become a little sweeter place for the ones outside those walls also. It is a win/win proposition don’t you think 🙂
@ SaraMD,
”These are signs of Last day as was predicted. When someone says the things that Islam asks us, it will be seen as wicked and bad. The ones who follow the right way will seem strange and the ones who fall back are seen as right.”
You keep making the mistake to think we are all believing in islam.
You see. I do not believe Mohammed got the koran from a god.
I don’t believe there is a god. at all. I believe he made it up. And what he didn’t make up he plagiarised from other believe systems.
So what’s written in the koran doesn’t mean anything for me. It is no proof for me.
There is not going to be an end of days.
NN: “I thought we were having a civilized discussion. What’s with the scare tactics? Running out of other arguments? There’s plenty of ways to never come close to STDs or unwanted pregnancies while enjoying a rich sexual experience. To let you in on a secret: my husband and I were 42 and 36 respectively when we wed, with many notches on our belt but no STDs or unwanted pregnancies behind us. You really ought to know better.”
I thought my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek but certainly not uncivil? Scare tactics? Arguments? Whoa…I’m not at all interested in arguing. I just disagreed with you that’s all. And I also didn’t realize you weren’t Muslim. I only commented because you were the only one who posted about it on this particular thread.
Obviously we’re not going to agree about premarital sex because of our differing religious views/beliefs. Like you said, it’s a matter of preference. Personally speaking both my husband and I were divorced before we married but it brings me no pleasure to think of his previous consorts nor do I think he likes to dwell on mine. I actually don’t like the fact of knowing that my husband was with other women. I wish we’d both been virgins. Less emotional baggage, I say.
And I know I don’t have to tell you that your past can come back to haunt you. Have you ever known anyone personally with HIV or AIDS? I have. And she discovered this well after her relationship had ended and had entered a new one. It’s not scare tactics or making false claims that all western men carry diseases. (*oby i never said that, of course this happens elsewhere.) It’s real life. With every new partner you have it’s a very real possibility even in spite of condoms, etc.
So, no I don’t think that gaining experience from a plethora of sexual partners is worth putting my health at risk. I would rather just work on communicating my sexual needs and desires with my husband even if he and I were both unskilled in the beginning. I have to say this is something that I was very pleased to see was spoken of in Islam…the Prophet taught the importance of the husband also pleasing his wife sexually not just himself.
Just remember your health…that’s all I’m saying. Whether we’re Muslim or not we all have a duty to our own self-preservation. And how we handle ourselves sexually is a huge part of that.
@africana
“you have distorted what the article is saying. yes, closets are mentioned but only in regards to the offering of prayers. a woman is at liberty to occupy any room in her home.let us remeber that many of the arab houses were designed with an inner court yard thus mitigating against the need to actually step outside for fresh air. you would think that the article was calling for the imprisonment of women. ”
You do realize that the first inner court yards for homes were built about a century after the Prophet SAW – they were in ‘vogue’ in Syria- that’s where the Roman and Greek influence of inner court yards entered Islamic Architecture…As well as the Mesopotamian …Baghdad being the Islamic version… or when the Fatimid established Cairo…
“there are women who rarely step out of their homes (though nothing is preventing them from doing so) because they prefer to remain at home and taste the sweetness of frequent worship which once savoured is sublime and intoxicating. sayyid hossein nasr once described the woman’s seclusion and relative removal from the affairs of everday life as being like a sort of monasticism conducive to an elevated state of spirituality. ”
Nasr sounds like a Catholic priest of the Opus Dei… That sort of monasticism in Islam is prohibited… wanting an equivalent to cloistered nuns in Islam is not a good push theoretically; since we have to marry, procreate, and tend to everyday affairs.Relative removal from the affairs of everyday life for women- would be more conducive to a fast divorce.
Oh, I forgot to add Africana; that if such removal of the affairs of daily life for that of frequent worship- then you’d still end up in the closet most, if not all day…
I just want you to sit for a moment. Do some research outside of these on-line Islamic sites (some tooted to being Israeli, by some- but I could never confirm that) – check the other parts of Islam to give you more substance for your search on what is and is not true.
I was advised just before I converted to always have the Qur’an at the ready for any passage quoted from Hadiths. And for every book that quoted a hadith for some particular point- crack open Bukhari and Muslim…and read it- and do not believe it until you have confirmed it from all sides.
That is what Islam is to me, Africana, seeking the knowledge from many sources, and they are not necessarily on-line, so that I can make a better more informed decision. We don’t have clergy- the Sheikh is appointed by the government that funds the Masjid. The Imam is the one present who has the most knowledge at that given moment to lead the prayer. The scholars, they are like lawyers – not divinely inspired by the recent trend.
Oh and if you want to see the only woman to ever qualify for application to be the first female mufti- though she only got one vote (remarkable considering femalephobia)- her application was not an outright rejection…So we have, can, and should reach for the knowledge that makes us better humans in Islam…
Trust me, there will come a day when you will ask yourself- what did I ever do to be castigated for being born a woman- when you do- you’ll want to find out why?
I’m guessing that people who buy into this sort of role for womean are simply hiding from life. I guess there is a certain percentage of women who are so scared they would rather be subservient and have an excuse to hide away and feel that somehow that is noble. And of course it lines up perfectly with men who need to control women.
It doesn’t even make sense. Early Muslims didin’t live that way. It fact most Muslims never have.
As for “End TImes”. People shoudn’t flatter themselves into thinking they understand prophecies. What does it matter? If the end is next week- I still may die tomorrow, so I just need to live my lilfe as best I can. If it’s a real prophecy- I’m sure ALlah knows what it really means and he can take care of it.
Oby
“..the men are so obsessed with sex or rather the lack of it that it is in the forefront of their minds always”
I agree!
“Does it not make sense to you that even when a woman is covered completely and a man is staring at her lasciviously he is imagining what she looks like without the abaya…”
I don’t know why people think I am talking about covering up. Yes cover up as opposed to being naked. But not as in complete cover but as in modest, decent.
“That is what we are trying to say.”
I know what people here are trying to say but they do not know what I am trying to say. They just automatically think that I am forcing people to cover every inch of skin. I just asked what makes western women display themselves. That was my subject. It was twisted so much to change it completly either to divert the topic or innocent misunderstanding.And the subject changes to women covering up.
“In KSA, the woman is responsible for the man’s natural thoughts and his actions have no consequences”
KSA is not the only Muslim country.
@Inal
I feel that you comment only for the sake of arguing. I do not find any substance in it. Sorry to say that but that is how I feel.
You said : “you have already called us Half-Naked AND naked Sluts, Pollutants, Shameless, Ridiculous, and have judged even further by implying that Muslim women that don’t cover fall into that category too”
Did I call you personally any names? Did I call you a slut? Did I call anyone in this thread those words? I was talking generally (which I made very clear) and not aimed at anyone in particular – while the name calling was directed at me personally by a gentleman. And where did I imply that uncovered muslim women fall into that category. Please can you quote me. IF you cannot quote me this you are saying lies against me which I take seriously.
“And even brought in someone’s unknown family members and made them naked too”
No I didn’t. That someone said he enjoys watching women but he does not realise that those women can be other people’s wives, daughters or mothers or sisters and he will hate it if other people are doing the same to his family. There was nothing wrong or insulting in this unless you are searching for something to be insulted about. I have said before : “I wonder if they approve of their daughters walking the streets half-naked.” but no one took that as insult.
“You didn’t consider me Muslim enough, so why appeal to me about the book, the prophet, and islam?”
I am talking about people who insult Islam and other’s do not mind this but when it comes to what I said about decent dressing, you became the judge, jury and executioner. Why is that, I wonder.
Again I did not call you personally any names nor judge as I don’t know you.
@Maggie
By slutty and naked I mean wearing clothes that are too revealing or hardly there and everything almost visible and then behaving in a way to direct attention. Showing forearm is not slutty. Not wearing scarf is not slutty.
“Also, when, in your view does “protection” cross over into “control”?”
Yes men like to “control” women as it shows they have some power over them. And men like power. I have made it very clear that forcing is not good. There is protection and there is control. When you absolutely forbid a person from doing something (or force to do something) which will not harm anyone or the society but only to benefit no one except the controller, then you are controlling. But if you advise/inform/educate… the problems that MAY occur and how it will not be good, and taking care and making sure no harm comes to them, giving guidelines as to what to do if such and such bad things happen, providing for, sheltering …ec then it is protection.
“I acknowledge there are problems in the West, but you don’t seem to acknowledge at all that there are problems in Muslim countries.”
Maggie, my topic was about the west and not the muslim country. Almost every post talks about problems of muslim countries. Here I was talking about the west. How can you say that I don’t acknowledge when I am not even talking about it – as it is not the subject matter.
“All men are just out to “protect” women in your view, and all women are wearing the scarf out of conviction”
I did not say that but yes men are supposed to protect their families as Quran says they are maintaiers and protectors. Protection is not only the scarf. Why do you see it so narrow? And family is not only the wife. There are children, parents, brothers, sisters …etc too. Protection involves keeping the family comfortable and cared for.
“I understand protection, but why is the only source of protection extremely covering and locking up women? Why isn’t respect for women instilled for their protection?”
I have not talked on this matter as my topic was on western women and I don’t know why the topic keeps coming to muslims. I do not agree with men who control women in such rigid methods. It is not right.
STW,
I do not really care what you believe in; its your choice and I did not try to prove anything to you. But there will be endings for everyone.
SarahMD, So you were talking about the west. That is the usual cheap ”trying to divert blame” tactics we see all the time here. It’s always a childish ruse, ”But Them do it tooooo” or ”Them are more bad!!!”
I will explain it to you one last time in very simple baby talk maybe you will get it.
Saudi Arabia has government imposed gender segregation, gender apartheit, women are forced to cover their bodies completely. Women have to wear the same colour black. (stupid choice in that climate”
Result:
A dysfunctional society
Men are obsessed, sex-crazed and sexually harass women all the time. When they are fully veiled.
”The West” has no gender segregation, there are enforced laws to protect women, women engage fully in society. They have choice as what to wear, and how much they show of their skin. Even if it’s in bad taste. Hence you see may different dress codes. Women dress according to the weather.
Result:
A normal civilized society.
Women very seldom get harassed. If it does happen men get punished by law.
Men do not change into salivating wolves when they see a woman, even at the beach where people are sunning themselves in swimwear.
Do you finally get it?
And don’t try to scare people with the fear of death. I have no fear of death. Heaven and hell are inventions made up to scare people into obedience. I think it’s cheap and childish and I’m not falling for the scam.
but if you look at layla’s example, south africa. there’s no segregtion, there and yet there’s rampant sexual harassment, by all accounts.
Sexual harassment and rape of women has as it primary origin a lack of respect and care for women. In patriarchal society where women are stripped of their dignity and autonomy you will have harassment and rape.
The segregation and extreme covering put onto Saudi women has it’s root in misogyny and lack of respect for women. I know the reasons for these restrictions are given in the terms of ”protection” and ”women are precious jewels” but these are lies to fool women to make them compliant.
I cannot remember who said it, but somebody else said before in this thread that is Saudi Arabia really cared for it’s women it would give them better education, job opportunities, independence (relinquishing of the mahram system), legal rights, driving licences, freedom of travel, and enforced laws punisheng harassment and rape. (punishing the criminals, not the victims)
Or something in that vein. Anyway, That was a very good comment.
dear OnigiriFB , assuming all little girls who wear headscarf are forced to do , is a little unfair , read this beautifully writen article:
http://www.oprah.com/spirit/Choosing-to-Wear-the-Muslim-Headscarf
If Saudis were even remotely interested in following that religion they profess to love and submit to so much…women would not live in fear that they will somehow shame their families…because they know very well the consequences of causing shame.
Islamic ountries are just about the only countries in the world where perceived shame can cause death.
And thats religious?
Is that what a Muslim woman strives for…to be part of such a system that holds her no higher than the males in her life level of pride and his perceived view of what causes shame?
mariam from iran…that little girl has a firm conviction…good for her..I wish grown women had as much…but the reality is…most little girls have it placed on their head one day…coincidently is usually the same day they are told they cant run and play outside anymore…or associate with boys…or raise their voices…or or or…see a pattern here? The moment the scarf comes on for Most little girls…is the moment their childhood is over…and now they are viewed as women.
Might as well put them in the JOY book the Mormons love so well. Same thing.
I’m not sure where to even start with commenting. I have gone through all the latest comments on this thread. The perspectives cover the whole scale of the spectrum. I do agree that the remarks that have been made are likely to make someone who does not know anything about Islam or Muslims to be very wary and want to keep their distance.
The comments also illustrate that there are such extreme views on covering of the body and what constitutes appropriate as compared to inappropriate.
I concur that there is no need to make any remarks personal or attacking. That is neither Islamic nor Christian. It is okay to disagree without having to make a comment personal.
One thing I am coming away with from all the comments is that when someone has a closed mind, he or she will not even acknowledge that it is okay to agree to disagree. I am saddened how comments are taken out of proportion and then turned into allusions that were not meant or intended.
I am ending my comment with a question to SarahMD — are you Saudi?
@MAggie -‘Why do i stick with Islam? Because i refuse to let people hijack my faith’
In all seriousness, have you ever considered that perhaps it is you that is doing the hijacking?
I’m just sayin… 😉
I’m all for Maggie hijacking the religion, and Sandy too for that matter.
Go girls!
😈
hijacking indicates its been taken over for a period of time…and then will be released when “demands” are met..or death has arrived…which one will it be for Islam…demands met…or death?
Bedu,
I agree with you that attacking is not approprate. Some people take pleasure in name calling and others call it being a gentleman. I am sure situation would have been different if it was a Muslim who said those words to non muslim. I have not called names expect but only to acknowledge my dislike of someone who called me names. I stopped to show that I am above that level.
I am part Arab and part Iranian. But if I am to list the nationalities in my family, it would be like united nations.
SaraMD, Pity that all those international genes didn’t result in a more tolerant mind.
You’re the one who started the namecalling here. and you encompassed the women of whole continents in that so it’s a bit rich to act all the victim here.
Not to mention that you became personal with MOQ and included his family in your backbiting.
You are usinganother fallacy btw : the Appeal to Pity.
@Aafke
The one who reads this thread will know who started the name calling and its there clearly where you started when you called me Mentally… but I am not going to be childish and say you said I said he said after this.
If you can understand enough, you will see what I was talking about with MoQ.
And you didnt mention that my intention was not to offend or insult but only to stress on what I was saying and I did apologize if he was offended.
I have to say that I don’t understand the ‘offense’ by bringing MoQ’s wife into anything. For all anyone knew he didn’t even HAVE a wife or kids. Must be an Arab or Muslim thing. Reminds me of the Arab horror of even mentioning a wife or mother’s name. It just seems very strange to me.
@lynn,
Here is the exact quote:
“You, on the other hand clearly would not mind your wife walking naked on the roads along with your daughters, sisters and mothers. That is all ok since they chose to walk naked and so it does not matter. And other men who enjoy watching women, can watch your wife, daughters, mother and sisters since men have rights to watch too. And you will have nothing to say to them.”
This is a low attack on people personal life and how they behave with their family. The assumption people like SarahMD make is that if you do not agree with her rules for women,then you must be a human being that has no honor or family values. You must of the type of person that gets your family out there naked in a public striptease. And yes, Sarah knows that talking about family is not acceptable.
It is this view of the world that she has. If you are not adhering to her ideology then you must be dirty, sex driven, etc. Just read her comments and you will begin to see how that mindset works.
That is abolutely not right.
You did not mention that you said that you enjoy watching women. Those women whom you enjoy watching are someone’s daughters, wives, sisters or mothers. The point I was making at that point was that you mind if someone else watches your family members, (As you have shown with outbursts) but you don;t mind watching others. That was my point.
Besides, anyone who reads what i was writing wil l understand that I am not asking people to adhere to my ideology and its just your asuumption because you think in one way only. I was merely asking one thing that was it and people started diviating from the topic and talking about covering.
@SarahMD,
You really do not understand do you.
It is in human nature for a man to enjoy seeing women.However, that does not imply they have to act like savage animals.That was the message. You keep missing it.
You have this perception that Humans will act in uncivil ways. That women if dressed less modestly must be sluts that are looking to be sex objects.That men watching them some how turn into WOLFs ready for the kill.
You think of teh worst in people and want to control that. It is a perception of the world that leads to calls of control and limiting freedoms.
After 100’s of messages, you are still not getting a simple concept.
Sarah MD…example of choice.
Last night at work two ladies walked in wearing, what I would refer to as some thing bought at Prostitutes R Us. Red skin tight leather barely there skirts and halter tops. One of them was almost bursting out of her clothes as they appeared to be too small for her..she was a little on the heavy side. The other one was far too skinny…almost skin and bones…so she just looked (to my eyes) sad and pathetic and needing a good dinner.
And they appeared somewhat intoxicated.
In the store at the time were about 10 people…a mix of women and men. I did a quick scan of faces…ALL the women were wearing faces of disgust….ALL the men were snickering and making little jokes to each other…the two women were oblivious.
They bought their stuff and sashayed out of the store and then everyone left in the store started up about…how could they wear those outfits…didnt they look in the mirror before they left home…and some less than nice observations.
I didnt hear one man say anything like…I would love to “tap” that (common phrase used now)…or anything similar..might have been thinking it but no one said it.
But more importantly…after 2 min those two women were forgotten…life went on. THEY chose to dress like that so they deal with the consequences…whatever those consequences may be. No police showed up to beat them with sticks…none of the men took it as an invitation to go after them (all though Im sure that happens plenty of times) and life went on.
That is choice…that is what people are talking about here. If your choice is to cover from mens eyes…then cover…it wont stop them if they really intend to look at you or harm you (believe me I know) but if it makes you feel better than do so. But dont assume everyone else should fall inline with that thinking.
I thought those women looked rediculous…someone needed to tell them to choose something else next time…that was just crazy…but nobody did…want to know why…cause it wasnt our business.
how someone else dresses is not YOUR business, my business, or any Mohammed, Hamad, Yousif on the street. (aka Tom Dick or Harry) business. I had no right to say anything to them…it was their choice to dress that way…and no man in that store had the right to touch them…even if they were blatantly showing everything they had…
but in the middle east, and this is NOT a general statement for once Im indicating t his….a woman is seen as property…she appears to be owned BY fucking everyone over there..her body belongs to everyone she passes…to touch, grab, molest, whatever…it matters little how much or how little she is covered..she is still a plate of meat passing by the Wolves that are always looking for their next meal. ALWAYS,
Covered or uncovered…a womans body in the middle east does not belong to herself. I dont give a crap what you or anyone else says. If I can be wearing a perfectly modest set of clothing…nothing showing but my hair..and a complete stranger of a man can stop his car…roll down his window and shout at me to cover my hair SLUT!!! and that Im doing shaitans work for him and then spit at me….but half naked women can walk into a store full of men and not one of them says anything to them directly…who are the safer women?
Give me the Big Bad West over the islamic middle east any day of the week.
@Coolred, thanks for sharing this experience. It very clearly outlines your side of this argument.
I also felt that very heighted “sexual charge” in the atmosphere while in Saudi. I got unwanted attention, even times while in niqab walking with my son. I hardly wore it, but it didn’t seem to stop any harassment when I did. I do not get that attention in the US.
@Sarah MD
You are being ridiculous. You attacked MoQ. We all see that. He described normal natural behavior and you elevated and morphed it into perverted behavior and attacked. Of course he defended himself. That is not at all the same as men “defending” their (implies ownership) women. The “looking” he mentioned is not the same as staring in disrespectful leering manner at women as SO MANY Muslim men do.
In fact, it seems the more Muslim women cover the more perverted the men get.
You don’t seem to be able to differentiate between looking attractive and looking sexually alluring.
Or between looking at someone or leering in a disgusting manner at someone.
Or between an adult having a choice on how to dress or on an adult being told how to dress.
Or how oppressing people is more of a pollutant on society than someone dressing in questionable taste.
@ Africana
“exposing children to sexualised images is, in my view, a type of child abuse and it seems that a woam’s right to appear naked trumps that of the child to be exposed to what in the past would have been called pornography.”
Well, goodness me … I’ve seen the way little girls are taught to dance in Muslim Africa and it’s bordering on seductive porn.
Anyway this topic has proved interesting, amusing, disgusting and frightening. Above all it’s re-confirmed my view that any organized religion is not a good one.
Wowzah…I gave up on this thread and with good reason-I can’t do debate with crazy people. There comes a point where you have to just say f*ck it, and f*ck them, and keep it moving. After all…you can’t cure crazy.
Major kudos and a round of applause to Oby, MoQ, Aakfe, Sandy, Coolred, Inal, SWT, Maggie…you all deserve a stiff drink and an effigy of Glenn Beck’s head as a trophy for dealing with this level of batshit insanity from SarahMD and Africana. You all have balls. Balls laden with honour and wisdom. Ladies as well as Men. Be proud of ’em, strut around naked so that their size is apparent.
Freeballers.
To SarahMD, Africana, and the Likes of SarahMD and Africana–let me tell you something…not that you’re listening because you’re obviously deaf and/or blind and/or both which is really making truly deaf and/or blind persons look bad (sorry y’all!) –soooo nevermind….
To everyone else who’s responsive to rational responses to otherwise ignorant crap and does so with a touch of humor and maybe a spoonful-o-sugar:
You know those People who find a reason to be mad about stuff just because they’re the kind of people who find reasons to be mad? And let you know about it. Don’t they piss you off? Me to.
I call them Trolls – and they’re everywhere now – not those cute naked guys with the colorful Don King hair and a jewel in the bellybutton…nooo no no…the ones that torment you, they crawled up from the netherworld up under your bed or emerged from the blackness of your closet–and sat their asses at the computer on a mission to find fresh ways to f*ck with you.
…Twitter is running RAMPANT with these d-bags, as is Facebook, discussion forums, etc. When did these damn things get wind of the Internet? Who taught them how to type?
**Quick! Someone Google “Troll Baiting in the Internet Age”**
Trolls are a drain on a thriving online community. Which sucks because they often tend to be the most offensively vocal community of individuals. You write a post about something, they find a reason to let you know know – ya know – how wrong and ridiculous your premise/argument/life crises/hop skotch award/observation about squirrel mating habits is, etc. —- I’d call them unstable creatures, but then it’s almost like downplaying Scholar Umar bin WinkinatWhosWifePeein’s contributions to Islamo pop-culture and I’d never want to do him like that. Just know that if you are an overly-critical, holier-than-thou hack, that The FireBrand hates you.
From the heart.
Geez @ SarahMD’s/Africana’s of the world, you have no realistic idea what personal freedom/choice is. Your comments on this are more indecisive of what it is/isn’t/might-be than this annoying lady standing infront of me struggling to order in McDonalds today. How in the Hell can you be indecisive at McDonalds? There’s basically like the same 20 options-everywhere on the planet! 6 billion sold! Hey Lady!! The menu’s been pretty much the same since pterodactyls were chasing tyrannosaurus booty. If you have to think about it, like for real for real, you need Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and two cans of WD-40 to remove the foot that I’d like to put straight up your hiney. Choose already!
I hate the trolling commentators on great blogs who behind their pseudonym are insecure motherf*ckers who only consider your opinion if you agree with them. The kind of commentators that will discredit your opinions, if your values, family, religiosity or lack-of, is in direct contrast to what they believe to be true.
Facts be damned.
I guess my main point is, you aren’t sh*t as a person if your sole purpose of discussing a very valid and interesting issue is to pretty much reduce the debate to only the opinions that coincide with your own. Multiply that sentiment times a million if you can only argue using logic a crack-head would understand.
*cough*—> SarahMD/Africana<—*cough*
You Folks don’t know what you want, but know what you don’t want. So let me/us, the regulars of American Bedu, get this right — are we supposed to continue to offer suggestions about women's clothing/sexual attitudes/shame-honor/'The East vs. The West'-in-a-cage fight until we reach a conclusion you’re not opposed too? Yeah the f*ck no.
…mmkay?
Mmkay.
@MoQ
on the contrary it is not you who is not getting it.
“It is in human nature for a man to enjoy seeing women”
Yes that is why women need to dress modestly because we cannot change the nature of men. Even if men do not become savage beasts, that beast will be in their minds. Why can’t the women be safe than sorry. Will it kill her to be modest?
I am sorry to say but I am a victim of rape – twice. Once when I was just 13 and at home. Another time by my close friend’s husband – in their home. Worse than that, I have to stand helpless while my sister was also being attacked. Yes men not only enjoy seeing women! They have to demonstrate how much they enjoy. Do you think I don’t get stared at from men who have nothing to do? One American soldier use to harass me and propose marriage while I see him with other women walking hand in hand. Men enjoying seeing women so much they have to pull their tools out of their pants and work on it to show just how much – while on the street behind a car. I felt like yanking it out and feeding it to the cats.
But when I started covering, I have never been more respected as a lady and I say NEVER. Even strange men treated me like some royalty; where as before, they just pulled down their pants.I even learned to like/respect myself after feeling “dirty” for years (which countless soaps could not clean). I have never felt like a real lady, honored, respected and uplifted, since I started covering.
Coolred
I mentioned somewhere before that men laugh at the way some women dress. some will be disgusted by it and put off. But there are sick men. You said after 2 min, those women were forgotten. How do you know what is lingering on in the minds? We cannot see that. And when those men go home and get those “feelings” they will think about those women to enhance their “feelings”. Some men even say negative things but what is in their minds we do not know. And there are some men who do not care at all.
It is not that in ME women are looked as property, there is something called shame. If i saw women dressed like the ones you described, I would feel shame. I would be uncomfortable. You say its their business but it does harm the soceity. What is the benefit of dressing like that?
@Inal
I am still waiting fo your reply. It can be one of two things : either you misunderstood me (in which case, needs to be cleared) or there isn’t any.
So which one is it?
SarahMD,
I think what you have suffered is horrific. And of course your personal experiences are your own- and they are what makes sense to you. But you have to realize that your experience is unique. Most of us are not treated with more respect when veiled- and it shouldn’t be a requirement for good treatment in any case. You were the victom of men close to you. I doubt a veil would have stopped them.
In the west NO MAN has ever exposed himself to me. EVER. So I think you are underestimating the good behavior men are capable of. And I have never been leered at as much as I have in the ME when fully covered. This is a common experience of many of us here. Respectful treatment of women in the west- disrespectful in the Muslim ME.
And those thoughts western men may be having? So do all the Muslim men- wearing a tent hasn’t stopped it. And they don’t know how to not act on their thoughts.
And yes, we are treated like property. I need my husbands permission for just about everything- and he can stop me from doing just about anything. Now I am very fortunate, as I hardly feel this- because he never attempted to control me that way, and has done what he can to empower me. Now of course he can’t change the law of the land. I still know the truth of it, and I see women every day who aren’t as lucky as I am. The whole mahrem system has become a means of near ownership for adult women and even worse for children. That is just how it is.
@Sandy
I was talking about men in general not from West particularly. But all men.
Sarah MD…I never said there was a benefit to dressing”slutty”…actually I agree with you and find women that do so shaming themselves and what ever mothers gave birth to them…but then again..maybe their mothers didnt raise them with that sense of shame you mentioned…how do we know. Some girls just “go bad”.
As a personal example…my own mother was/is a modest woman. A tshirt and jeans kind of girl her whole life. I can only remember 2 or 3 times that she even wore shorts..and those were while out on a boat (she got a horrible sunburn for her efforts btw). While children she dressed us in pretty much the same as herself…tshits and jeans. As her 3 daughters grew up though…a curious thing happened…two of them changed their mode of dress and became…more relaxed about it…I guess you might say. One of us even decided underwear and bras were just not her thing…and didnt really care who knew her preference to go commando…top and bottom. So…3 girls raised by the same mother in the same house…turning out different as far as their personal choice of dress.In the end…its all choice.
But I also see no benefit to completely covering women until they become an invisible shadow among men. Why must women become a ghost before they are even dead? And why do you assume men are treating you with respect ONLY because you are covered…maybe these men are respectful men that would do the same whether you were covered or naked? hmmm? I could relate much the same stories about men and their dicks while I was covered…that you did while uncovered..a man will be a dog if being a dog is his nature…regardless of what you are wearing…or not wearing. That seems to be a hard concept for you to understand.
Its NOT the responsibility of a woman to control the nature of man…according to God..we are all responsible for our OWN actions. That also seems a hard concept for you to grasp.
Also…whether or not a man thinks about you later to get his jollies off…is not your fault either…we cannot control peoples thoughts…how do you know what is going on in your own husbands head (any womans husband) during your intimate moments…can you be positive its you on his mind just then? Of course not…and how would that be your fault too?
We cannot control peoples thoughts. They will think what they want too…its when they act on those thoughts that things can get problematic…but then again…how is that our fault again?
Such discrimination and sexism should never be allowed anywhere. It is a disgrace when Islam doesn’t teach its believers to daunt women with such criticism and rigid mentality. Women need to be treated well. Sorry but seriously I can never fathom how Saudi government can even make such stupid remark. It just shows how dim-witted Saudi men are. Peace
@SarahMD,
I am sorry that you had to deal with being attacked. People that commit rape are criminals. and all I can say is they should be locked up for ever.
Like Sandy said the issue you have here is that they are people who are close to you. Covering was not going to prevent this. Actually statistics show that the majority of rapes are committed by people known to the victim. In most cases they feel they can get away with it, because of this shame that is put on women.
The traumatic experience seemingly have left you with this view that all men are potential rapist. I do not blame you for having such strong reaction, given the severity of what you had to deal with. I think you should seek help with these feelings. I am not saying this in a derogatory manner, I think what you have went through is one of the worst experiences a woman can go through and there is no shame in seeking help with it.
Thinking that men are all potential rapist is not natural. Your experience is clouding your judgment on this topic. You took the work of 2 criminals and extrapolated it as something the over 3B men of the world would do. Saying that women should be covered or freedoms should be taken away to prevent the criminal acts of a few criminals is not logical or wise.
Actually, those 2 beasts were not well-known to me.
I do not think all men are rapist but I did at one point and hated them very much. What do you do when your friend’s husband rapes you. Do you tell her, ignore it, go to the police, befriend the rapist ….
Neither Sara MD- neither;
I have many replies, but would spare Bedu readers another 400 odd more comments for a useless endeavor.
It is necessary in my own honest opinion that you may want to talk to a professional about the underlying issues you have. I don’t mean this as an insult or to insinuate anything, other than to say anyone who has suffered traumas is usually left with many emotional and psych-social conflicts that a professional can help them resolve. That I know for a fact, no hearsay.
Life, Sara MD, is not either-or; black and white; right or wrong- just shades of gray. I choose to live in the reality that many things affect the outcome of one thing.
So please do yourself a favor and take the gloves off- fighting the world will only gain you very little.
And no…you are not right; just stressed. I’m not wrong; just not engaging you.
Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world -Arthur Schopenhauser (1788-1860)
Inal
I don’t understand what you are saying. It must be my traumatic mind. I just asked you to clarify what you accused me of. It simple as that.
SarahMD, Inal hasn’t accused you of anything. Merely suggesting that as you are a survivor of rape that perhaps it would be to your benefit to seek support.
Considering what you have elected to tell us about your personal life, and the 400-deep comments from above it’s clear, to us that there is something not adding up and we are encouraging you to heal yourself from with instead of lashing out.
Take Note too of how no one has demeaned you or said nasty things about being a rape victim to you in spite of some of the things you’ve said. This is what sincere people do-extend a helping hand without judgment. This is the hallmark of compassion and by far and away has nothing to do with what you wear, who you worship, what color you are or where you are from.
I wish you the best.
@Sarah MD
I’m so sorry about your experiences. What I’d like to tell you is that none of it was your fault. It doesn’t matter what you wore, how covered you were, what you said or what you looked like. The totality of blame is on the rapists. You are a victim here. There is no reason to feel guilty. You are not to blame. Most rape victims, fyi, are raped by people they know. It’s not uncommon.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to have come to the conclusion that if women covered more, men would be less inclined to rape them. Sarah, a rape is always a crime!! It is never a fault of the woman. We are each responsible for our thoughts and actions, men AND women.
Men who are brought up right will never hurt or offend a woman, no matter what she wears.
Sarah MD…
I too would like to say how awful it was what you had to go through. You NEVER deserved it. NOTHING you did caused you to be raped. It is 100% the rapists fault, not due to anything you were or weren’t wearing’
Rape is not a crime about sex…it a crime about sick individuals who want to exert power and control over women…there is no age to a rape victim…even elderly women in their 70’s or older can become rape victims. It isn’t about sex or covering up to dissuade the rapist. It is about POWER in the most heinous way. Covering,age,race,religion,social circumstances are not factors. It is purely about fear and intimidation. You are in no way responsible. But what makes it worse is carrying around that pain and feeling guilt and shame. Then the rapist has won. He doesn’t deserve ONE SECOND of your life. If you haven’t already, If you can get help and talk to someone about it will help you immensely. I was never raped but had some other things go on in my life and I went to counseling and the help it gave me was amazing!
Good luck!
@Firebrand
As usual I think you do not know what I am talking about and I am sure that Inal can answer for herself. I am talking about she accusing me of saying something that I did not say. Either she misunderstood me or she is lying against me. So I was waiting for her to clarify it. Now that is silent on this, I can only assume her reply. It does nothing for me but it will only effect her credibility.
@NN, Oby
Thanks for you kind words and understanding. I do know that it is not my fault but I think I can inform others to avoid being in the same situation. Yes it is not 100% what I did or wear but it DOES play a part. If a rapist is 90% there to do it, then 10% can be added with the way of dressing/behavior. I know that the way I am/was treated after covering is way, way different. So I can clearly see it. I know some women do not feel this which makes me say that it is not true in all cases.
Thanks for support.
Sarah MD, perhaps your definition of ‘rape’ is different from ours? Women (and men) have fought a long hard battle in my country to help women who have been raped by taking the blame away from them, where it often used to be, and putting it where it belongs, on the RAPIST even if that rapist is her husband. Yes, even her HUSBAND is not allowed to have his way with his wife if she does not want him to. And here you want to continue to blame yourself and other rape victims because of what you were wearing? I get it, your brainwashing does not allow you to see truth but fortunately that bullshit of putting the blame on the victim no longer flies in my world. THIS is a perfect example of why I am SO against even the IDEA of hijab (as a cloth to cover) it puts the blame on the woman.
I think this is a good example for what Aafke was saying before about women who convert to Islam being a slap in the face to those who fought the battles for liberation.
@Lynn,
I have never said that the victims are to be blamed. I do say that the way some women dress, does provoke men with sick minds. It triggers something in them and this is a well known fact.
My modest dressing has nothing to do with what had happened. I covered on my own because I just felt like that was good and I found my freedom in covering. Yes I did.
” I have never said that the victims are to be blamed. I do say that the way some women dress, does provoke men with sick minds. It triggers something in them and this is a well known fact. ”
You can’t be serious?!? Where did you get this “fact” from? (links to scientific studies supporting it would be appreciated)
Did you read any of the responses above? Rape is not about sex, it’s about power and control! The victim’s dress has absolutely NOTHING to do with her becoming a victim. What you’re saying is that if a Saudi woman wearing abaya and headscarf gets raped, it’s her fault for not wearing niqab. If she wears niqab, it’s her fault for not wearing gloves. If she wears gloves, it’s her fault for leaving the house. If her husband rapes her, it’s her fault…oh wait, you probably believe that since a woman is her husband’s property he has the right to rape her whenever he wants anyways.
SarahMD…
“does provoke men with sick minds”
that is essentially the WHOLE point to this plethora of commenting….SOME men will be provoked by something, anything, or NOTHING. Using what you wear as an excuse, is just that, an excuse. But they dont need what you wear as a reason or excuse, they dont need any reason except their own sick minds as you said.
Now, considering a woman has NO control over such men. Considering a woman has NO control over what is in their minds. Considering women have NO ability to make every man on the planet behave…simply by erasing herself from the scenery….what difference does covering your hair make…what difference does covering anything make really?
Of course you can cover, is up to you and should only be up to you…but to do it because you believe your actions are in some way preventing sick men from acting out their animalistic tendencies is a false assumption. Women who cover are raped…just like women who walk around half naked are raped…as unfortunately you have found out.
Men who rape, rapist, dont really care what your wearing or not wearing…you are THERE and you are female, that is the beginning and end of it.
in an earlier comment aafke, in response to my comment about south africa and sexual harrassment mentioned patriarchy fuelling this behaviour. however, from what i have seen south africa some important aspects of the culture are matriarchal such as the way in which many homes are headed by a lone female.
similarly, southern italy, contrary to popular belief has a matriarchal tradition and sexual harassmet is a problem there…even some of the carabinieri engage in it.
@sarah MD,i have been reading some of the previous comments and i have to agree with inal, nn and others that you would definitely benefit from some professional help. i wish you all the best on your path to recovery.
@africana
I grew up in South Africa and studied anthropology there and although some of the traditional societies are “matrilineal” (property is passed through the female line – man to sister’s son, after all he knows for a fact some of those genes are his) none are “matriarchal” (headed by women). Furthermore, “thanks” to apartheid there is an entire generation of extremely traumatised people, who had no power and were expected to be subservient, often in the face of abuse. Many households had “lone females” because men had to work on the mines etc in the cities and families were not allowed to accompany them but forced to stay in their “homelands”. Given the huge power inequalities in the society until very recently, one would expect the current high levels of violent crime including rape and murder. Add to this an extremely high level of AIDS (up to 75% in some areas, in fact rather than “lone female” these days there are very many “children only” households since all adults have died…) and a popular belief that sex with a virgin will cure AIDS and you have very high rape statistics, with many cases of child and infant rape. The country is suffering with a hugely traumatic legacy. I don’t think that using it as an example for anything except a horrific tragedy that should never had occurred is very useful. And I definitely think that rape in South Africa is all about power inequalities and nothing to do with what the women are wearing. In fact I’m pretty sure that in the “old days” when the women pranced around in beads and a grass skirt only, the cases of rape were very much lower than today…
Rape is NEVER the fault of the victim, always solely that of the perpetrator and is always about power. Men are actually able to control themselves if they are brought up with the expectation that they will.
@SarahMD – I am sure Inal will respond when she can. At the moment she is airborne and does not yet know if she will have internet at her destination. Let’s hope she does.
I cannot begin to imagine the plethora of thoughts that would go through your mind after not one by two experiences of rape. If you wish, you may email me directly at admin@americanbedu.com. I can put you in touch with individuals who can give you support and lead you to professionals who can help you through the emotional baggage such an experience creates.
I apologize to all for my delays in responding. I’ve been offline a few days due to some medical issues I’ve had to contend with. All is better now and I am catching up.
I am somewhat surprised why many think that I am not capable thinking in a normal way. Yes I understand my experiences can make a difference in behaviour or thoughts. It did for me at that time but I came out of it and my opinion on certain topics has nothing to do with what had happened.
Having said that, I appreciate the messages of support – especially because I have never talked about it so openly not knowing what kind of reactions I would get.
Africana, thanks for your wishes.
Bedu, I am grateful for your kind help. I will email you soon. Thanks.
I am sure, too, Inal will respond and I wish her the best wherever she is going to.